Pod Insights IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson Learn to Lead with Dawn Staley About this episode On this week’s episode, college basketball coach and former player Dawn Staley joins the show to answer a listener question about leadership. She shares her own journey through the fledgling WNBA, her childhood growing up in North Philly, and what helped her to learn how to lead. Plus, Dawn shares her surprising true crime obsession.
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Transcript 10,031 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 I do watch sports, but I'm a little morbid. I like, I like crime.
0:04 Michelle Obama? Oh, yeah.
0:05 Speaker 00 You know, I do. I like crime. Like, if I could go in person to trials, like, I went to a double murder trial in Columbia, South Carolina.
0:18 Michelle Obama? Just for fun?
0:19 Speaker 00 Yes. Like, it's, it's different. Like, TV does it no justice, y'all.
0:26 Michelle Obama? It's like, you want the real thing.
0:27 Speaker 00 I want the real thing.
0:35 Michelle Obama? This episode is brought to you by Rivian and Chase Home Lending. How are you today, my brother?
0:43 Craig Robinson? I feel really good. You know, I was, I was, had one of my colds recently, but I feel great now. I just needed a little sleep.
0:53 Michelle Obama? That's good. Too much running around, following, chasing around those, those boys.
0:57 Craig Robinson? Those little boys.
0:58 Michelle Obama? Turnments.
0:59 Craig Robinson? You know, it's, it's really fun being an AAU coach, though.
1:02 Michelle Obama? You know, our, our guest today is, is a, a, a big time coach. I'm excited to talk to her.
1:09 Craig Robinson? But you know, you know, before we bring Dawn out, let me just tell you, I wanna, you, you know, you and I both were gifted Rivians.
1:20 Michelle Obama? Yes.
1:21 Craig Robinson? And let me tell you, so I've had mine for about, for a couple of months now.
1:25 Michelle Obama? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:26 Craig Robinson? And it is now my primary car.
1:28 Michelle Obama? Of course.
1:29 Craig Robinson? It's my primary car.
1:30 Michelle Obama? You got that, that blue that is like
1:33 Craig Robinson? The Rivian blue.
1:33 Michelle Obama? Spectacular blue.
1:34 Craig Robinson? It is.
1:35 Michelle Obama? It should have a different name. Does it draw a lot of attention? What's the blue called that you got?
1:40 Craig Robinson? Rivian blue. It's called Rivian blue.
1:42 Michelle Obama? So do your neighbors, like, see you coming?
1:45 Craig Robinson? Oh, everybody sees me coming. And, you know, we've now taken it on some further trips and the kids love it. You know, you can, they like to sit in the third row and put the second row down and sort of put their legs out.
1:59 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
2:00 Craig Robinson? Yeah, when we go far places, but.
2:02 Michelle Obama? Well, I'm excited. I've tested it out. I have driven around the driveway.
2:09 Michelle Obama? But I'm gonna get out on the road this summer and it drives so smooth, so easy. I just, I really love the car.
2:16 Craig Robinson? Yeah, yeah.
2:16 Michelle Obama? So I'm glad you're happy with yours.
2:18 Craig Robinson? I am.
2:18 Michelle Obama? The family is settling in you as Rivian owners.
2:21 Craig Robinson? We are.
2:22 Michelle Obama? So congratulations, my friend.
2:25 Craig Robinson? So I am so excited about our guest today.
2:28 Michelle Obama? I am too. I really am. First time I'm meeting Coach.
2:32 Craig Robinson? Well, we were fortunate enough to get Coach Dawn Staley on Ways to Win.
2:37 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
2:38 Craig Robinson? And she was fantastic and she's done a lot for the coaching world. You know, she's done seminars for our National Association of Basketball Coaches, which is the Men's Basketball Coaches Association. She's done stuff for the Women's Basketball Coaches Association. She's the head coach of the University of South Carolina Gamecocks.
3:01 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
3:02 Craig Robinson? Women's basketball team, a three-time Olympic gold medalist, and a Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame inductee. And her debut book, Uncommon Favor, is out now. Please welcome our good friend now, I guess we can call her Dawn Staley.
3:23 Michelle Obama? Dawn, welcome, welcome to IMO.
3:26 Speaker 03 Good to see you again. Oh, wonderful to have you with us.
3:32 Michelle Obama? Oh, my goodness. Well, welcome to IMO.
3:35 Speaker 00 Thank you.
3:36 Michelle Obama? Oh, congratulations on the new book.
3:39 Speaker 00 It's been a whirlwind.
3:40 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I can only imagine. And let's tell listeners when it came out.
3:48 Speaker 00 Came out May the 20th.
3:50 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
3:51 Speaker 00 And when you write a book, you don't know how it's going to be received.
3:55 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
3:56 Speaker 00 You're just writing it out of love, out of probably not wanting to forget. So you gotta put it down somewhere and then just, just my mother. My mother was a big, big, big influence in my life. And I just kinda wanted to pay tribute to her.
4:16 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
4:17 Speaker 00 And the things that, that I say raised me, like basketball raised me.
4:21 Michelle Obama? That's right.
4:22 Speaker 00 North Philly raised me.
4:24 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
4:24 Speaker 00 And it's a tribute to, to those three things, but. Everybody that played a role in it.
4:31 Michelle Obama? Yeah, and I can imagine that it's well received because it's a beautifully written book. I was saying that your upbringing, your relationship to your mother, your feeling about your community, Philly, the neighborhood you grew up, it's so reminiscent of
4:52 Craig Robinson? Of how we grew up.
4:52 Michelle Obama? How we grew up, you know, my memoir Becoming, I can, I understand that wanting to pay tribute to the people who brought you where you are. Talk a bit more about your, what it was like growing up.
5:11 Speaker 00 I actually thought it was great.
5:12 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
5:13 Speaker 00 I never had a care in the world, like, I mean, my mother was a disciplined
5:19 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
5:19 Speaker 00 mother, so, I mean, I did have a care in the world when it was going against what she wanted. I did. But I felt like I had everything, like I had, I felt like I had a desire to compete. I felt like I had a discipline in the household. I felt like I had friends who really, really understood and believed in friendship and camaraderie. I grew up in a neighborhood and like the projects, like you, you would never know, like the block that I grew up on, you would never know it was low income housing.
5:53 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
5:53 Speaker 00 And everything to do with manicure lawns, like adults taking care of the neighborhood, friends you can really count on, like you could, you could, you can have an argument with one of your friends and then the next moment, you're, you're playing basketball, baseball, football with them and it didn't matter, that lead to anything besides strengthening your friendship and your trust. I, I mean, I I wouldn't trade it for anywhere else. Like, anywhere else in the country.
6:26 Michelle Obama? And I love the way you full-throatedly embrace our communities. Because a lot of people out there have different views of what it means to grow up in a poor or working-class minority area. They think it's all, is it sad? Is it hard? Is it dangerous? You know, but you paint the real picture of what life is like for kids like us growing up. These are families. These are people who work every day, right? How did your mother sort of help you find your way? As the youngest, as a kid who was, you know, naturally shy. And, you know, you speak about her and her.
7:10 Michelle Obama? She sounded a lot like you, that she was attuned. She was a listener. In order to raise y'all and while she was working, she had to be, you know, busy but keeping an eye out. Talk to us about how she helped you become who you are.
7:27 Speaker 00 She helped me become who I am by not sparing a ride.
7:32 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
7:33 Speaker 00 And that helped shape me. And I feared my mother. Like, it was a, you didn't want to, you didn't want to break any rules. You didn't want to, you know, get sent home with a note. You didn't want to get suspended from school. So she shaped the discipline in me.
7:49 Craig Robinson? So how have you taken that from your upbringing and implemented on your current players who were brought up differently than you were?
7:59 Speaker 00 There's a lot of communication involved in it. Like, and it's a lot of inclusivity. Like, young people talk to their parents a lot, like, every day.
8:11 Michelle Obama? They do.
8:12 Speaker 00 Which is, which is...
8:13 Craig Robinson? But they don't talk to each other.
8:14 Speaker 00 No, but they talk to their parents. So I have to find a way to talk to the parents, like me. Like, I forge that relationship with the parents. So if they're talking to their kids every day, I want my message being said to the kid. Like, it is that way. And then I condition our kids to get an understanding of how I like to operate, just clearly. It's not, like, I don't have team rules. They're just, they're just...
8:47 Speaker 00 Character traits.
8:48 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
8:48 Speaker 00 They're not like rules, like be on time. That's a character trait.
8:51 Michelle Obama? Oh, my God.
8:52 Speaker 00 Communicate.
8:53 Michelle Obama? Can you say that again? That's a Robinson character trait.
8:56 Craig Robinson? It is.
8:56 Michelle Obama? Being on time.
8:57 Speaker 00 It's not hard. So when they aren't doing those things, you just, you check them. Hey, you late today? Because it's, it's their careers. It's not my career. I got a career, like I, this is what I do. And I try to tell young people that I've been coaching for 25 years. And I have yet, like, they're, they're the same old recycle problems.
9:22 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
9:23 Speaker 00 Like, like I want new problems. I want, I want to solve some new problems. And it's just, and they won't, they won't say anything until it's too late. Or, or it could have been resolved in a five minute conversation. So I, I welcome young people to say it, to use their voices. Because I, I know what using your voice does. It, it prevents you from being taken advantage of. It, it allows you clarity of what you like and what you don't like. I try to get them where most 50 year olds are. Because 50 year, when I turned 50, life cleared up for me. Like, it's clear. Like, if I don't like something, I'm gonna let you know. Like, I don't, I don't like that. Like, if I do like it.
10:06 Michelle Obama? Give them a jump start on it.
10:07 Speaker 00 Yes.
10:07 Michelle Obama? I understand they can, they can start building this muscle earlier than we did. Because I feel the same way. You know, life got a lot better.
10:17 Speaker 00 Peaceful, it's peaceful there. Everything is peace. You're protecting your peace.
10:21 Michelle Obama? Yes. I'm listening to you talk, Dawn, and I'm, I'm picturing little Dawn on, on the basketball courts, playing with all these boys, right? And, you know, I mean, it is rare for somebody to, and it's a blessing, to find out early in life what you love, and then be able to do it for the rest of your life and make a career out of it. It is a blessing. I, I want to, I want, I would love to hear more about that.
10:50 Speaker 00 Well, well, I would say this. When I was growing up.
10:56 Speaker 00 For me, it was genderless. I was just playing. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know I was a girl until they told me,
11:02 Michelle Obama? Yep.
11:03 Speaker 00 Go put a skirt on and go in the kitchen. I didn't realize that that's what it was.
11:09 Speaker 00 But I didn't care. Like, they didn't know who my mother was. My mother's got the strength of ten men and thick skin. So the name-calling really didn't bother me. After a while, at first it does.
11:20 Michelle Obama? It's like, I'm one of five. I'm the youngest of five. Say something that'll make me cry, right?
11:27 Speaker 00 And then you, you gain the respect of the guys. And then it, it, the, the relationship goes to,
11:37 Speaker 00 you're one of us.
11:39 Michelle Obama? But now with Title IX and, you know, girls, young girls, uh, cause I, I was a tomboy. You know, growing up as a younger with a brother, I did same thing. I was doing everything they were doing. They were boxing, I was boxing. We're playing piggy softball, I was out there. If I was running track, I was gonna beat all of them. But I'm, you know, almost 10 years older than you and the opportunities, just like for you, were even, it wasn't there for a girl who was a jock to, to be in organized sports. I spent a lot of time on the sidelines watching him play in leagues and going to his games and, because I didn't see girls doing any of that.
12:24 Michelle Obama? Um, and now that there are more opportunities for girls, I guess my question is, do you see the difference in, uh, female athletes who grew up in all-girls sports? I mean, they've had it, they've been exposed to it, but because they had the opportunities, they didn't get the, the chance to, you know, play with the boys. Um, do you see differences now?
12:50 Speaker 00 I, I do. I, I just see there's, there's more opportunity for girls. Like, if I, if I look at my team...
12:59 Speaker 00 Probably over just my, my entire career coaching, right? They've only known it to be a WNBA.
13:08 Michelle Obama? Yep.
13:09 Speaker 00 Only know, they grew, they, they were born.
13:12 Craig Robinson? Right.
13:12 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm.
13:13 Speaker 00 So, that's the carrot that's been dangled in front of them for all of their lives. So, they, they play now, they participate, they, they play AAU.
13:22 Michelle Obama? They see a future.
13:23 Speaker 00 They, they see a future in it, like in a future here in the States.
13:27 Michelle Obama? Yeah. I, I, I'm always curious, and I've met a number of wonderful WNBA college female athletes in basketball, and I don't think people really understand how the, the, the, the path is so different, you know, the fact that, you know, pay is so unequal, that the life of a professional WNBA player is so different. Can you tell us, tell our listeners a little bit about what it was like for you as a professional player, you know, because you could, you know, how did you make ends meet, you know?
14:12 Michelle Obama? Was that life difficult?
14:14 Speaker 00 It, it was, I, I would say this, when I, when I graduated from college, graduated from UVA in 1992, my male counterpart was Shaquille O'Neal.
14:26 Michelle Obama? Hmm.
14:27 Speaker 00 Right?
14:28 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
14:28 Speaker 00 Shaquille.
14:29 Michelle Obama? Yeah, we know that dude.
14:30 Speaker 00 Yeah, eighty million dollar contract.
14:32 Michelle Obama? Hmm.
14:33 Speaker 00 Me, I'm sitting at home, and, and that mother that, that cleaned houses, cleaned the house for a man that owned a retail store. So, I had to ask my mother, I'm, I'm a college graduate.
14:48 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
14:49 Speaker 00 To, to use her plug, right? To get me a job at his store.
14:54 Michelle Obama? Hmm.
14:55 Speaker 00 And I did retail for about three weeks, and then I'm like, this isn't for me, this isn't for me, like, um, once I, once I got that check, that check was like two hundred and twenty-seven dollars, and I'm like.
15:07 Speaker 00 For all that. All of that. For three weeks, right?
15:11 Speaker 00 So I was waiting to go overseas to play. Because at my height as a guard, they don't want guards, they want bigs. So I went over to Segovia, Spain in October of 1992. Played for $35,000, which was decent for me. I didn't have a job. It was more than the retail store. Way more. So I did that. And then 1990, I was playing for being an Olympian. Because one of my lifelong dreams was to be an Olympian. Because I only saw women play on television two times. National championship and gold medal. Yeah. And that's what I wanted.
15:57 Speaker 00 So I had to go overseas to play to get more international experience. So I can be ready the next time I try out for an Olympic Games, which was 94.
16:07 Speaker 00 Ended up making the 96 team. And then from our year of practicing together in preparation for the 96 Games, we knew halfway through that there was going to be a WNBA. So we were like the guinea pigs to see if women's basketball could stand the test of time during that year. And then not only the WNBA was birthed, so was another league, the ABL. And so two women's professional leagues started in 96 and 97. So from 92 to 97, it was a struggle.
16:51 Speaker 00 Once I started in WNBA,
16:55 Speaker 00 I was coaching at Temple University at the same time. So I could make ends meet because I had a second job. The WNBA job was my second job. But you had to have two jobs. I mean, it's not enough for you to just take the paycheck and live year round. 12 months, yeah. So you had to have supplemental income.
17:25 Craig Robinson? In this segment, brought to you by Chase Home Lending, we're talking about something that hits close to home, literally, moving, relocating, finding a place to settle, and how those journeys shape who we are. You know, Mish, you know, we've moved around a whole lot in our days from coaching. And what I remember that made home, home, was it didn't matter where we were, as long as we were together. You know, we had to stay in hotels. We had to stay on people's couches. We had to stay all over the place until we found a place to live. But it didn't matter as long as we were together.
18:03 Michelle Obama? I totally agree. You know, our biggest move in our little Obama family was our move from the South Side of Chicago to the White House. Never thought we'd feel settled in that place, but what we realized is that as long as we had each other, we were home.
18:21 Craig Robinson? Thanks to Chase Home Lending for sponsoring this segment. Having the right support when finding a home is so important, and Chase Home Lending helps people at every stage of the homeownership journey, from first-time buyers to those relocating for new opportunities. They are committed to helping people in all communities gain confidence in the home-buying process. Because owning a home isn't just about having a place to live, it's about building a brighter future for you and your family. Ready to take that first step? Learn more at chase.com/start. Member FDIC, equal housing opportunity.
19:08 Michelle Obama? So are they gonna compensate players for that loss of income? Is our salaries keeping up with this new requirement?
19:15 Speaker 00 Well, I think the salaries now, and I don't, it is probably anywhere from $75,000 to maybe $250,000, $250,000.
19:28 Michelle Obama? Compared to an NBA player?
19:31 Speaker 00 Oh, there's no comparison.
19:32 Michelle Obama? Yeah. I just want the number, I want, I want, I want to say the numbers out loud so that, you know, because the average NBA player is making
19:42 Speaker 00 Millions, it's millions.
19:43 Michelle Obama? Millions if they don't even get playing time, right?
19:46 Speaker 00 Yes. And I will say this, in comparison to whether, like if we looked at the NBA in its 28th or 29th year, I think we're, I think we're okay, like, I think we're okay.
20:01 Craig Robinson? It's on par.
20:02 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's on par.
20:03 Craig Robinson? To where, okay.
20:05 Speaker 00 But we want to see the near future of WNBA players being able to get a super max contract, like a, you know what I'm saying?
20:17 Craig Robinson? Yeah, I know exactly what you're saying. And it makes me think, so, you know, like, the NBA's been around for years, and now the WNBA has been around for years, not as many, but it's been around for years. What's made it so popular now?
20:32 Speaker 00 Well, I, I think it's been popular. I think you, you, you, you have, you know, players like a Katelyn Clark. She, she, she brings a lot of eyeballs to our sport, a lot of them. And so much, so much, so much so that now you're seeing the rest of the league and how good and talented our women are that represent the WNBA. Like, I, I, we played Katelyn Clark's Iowa team on national television in 2024, the highest ever. I think it, it, it tapped out at 24 million, most watched game ever, right? And I know a lot of people were tuned
21:12 Speaker 00 in to see Katelyn, but what they saw was a South Carolina team that was super talented, that, that, that was on a, an undefeated run. And I know they walked into something that didn't really know what was about to happen. So I think it's cool that the new eyes, eyeballs are coming to our sport and they're seeing how very talented, like, our players are. And is it?
21:42 Speaker 00 Somewhat controversy? Yeah, but what sport is it?
21:46 Michelle Obama? That's right.
21:47 Speaker 00 I like the fact that we are, we do have some controversy. Yeah, it's a sport.
21:50 Craig Robinson? I've always said that I watch sports not just for the reality of it, but I watch sports to root against the people who I don't like. And if there's no drama, there's no fun. And I love the fact that the WNBA has some drama now. And I think I've always said that it needed more drama. But I was, I was getting to the fact that I, it feels like to me, college basketball has made the WNBA more popular.
22:19 Speaker 00 Yep.
22:20 Craig Robinson? Now with this new house settlement having come through, this is some very recent stuff, so I want to get your take.
22:27 Michelle Obama? And just quickly, just explain for those who may not know.
22:30 Craig Robinson? Yeah, that's, that's a really good point.
22:31 Michelle Obama? What NIL is, just quickly.
22:33 Craig Robinson? For, for those who don't understand, name, image and likeness was the only way student athletes could get paid. And now with this new house settlement, as a result of some lawsuits, it is passed now that school, schools can actually pay a portion of the revenues they earn to the student athletes.
22:55 Speaker 00 Yes, well, first, first it'll be, um, the NCAA got sued for over $2 billion. So for the next 10 years, the athletes that opt into this, and you don't have to opt in, but if you opt in, you can get some of the, some of the money.
23:12 Michelle Obama? Settlement money.
23:13 Speaker 00 The settlement money, which is probably $20 million per school. But that, that doesn't, you know, that, that's football.
23:25 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
23:25 Speaker 00 That's men's basketball. And maybe sprinkling a little women's basketball and other Olympic sports.
23:31 Michelle Obama? How is it a change recruitment?
23:34 Speaker 00 I mean, I mean, it's, that's, that's the difficult part because, you know, the market, the market says that if you're, if you're a non-contributor and you go into the portal.
23:49 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm. And what, so what does it mean to be a non-contributor?
23:52 Speaker 00 Like you don't play.
23:53 Michelle Obama? Okay.
23:53 Speaker 00 No playing time.
23:55 Michelle Obama? Uh-huh.
23:55 Speaker 00 You're leaving the school because you're not playing. You average two points, one rebound, right?
24:01 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm.
24:02 Speaker 00 They can go ask a school like us for $100,000.
24:09 Michelle Obama? Wait, how, what?
24:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, yes, easily. And it won't blink. It won't blink. Now, if I entertain that, they're gonna take it to another school. Hey, South Carolina's offered me 100 grand. You got 150? And it's just that. It's just that. So for us at South Carolina, I mean, we got a certain amount of money that we have to work with. And I don't overpromise. I stay within the budget, the revenue share budget that we have. And I do some innovative things as well to help our players out in this space.
24:51 Speaker 00 Like, we play games for money, and that money goes directly to our players. Things like that. Now, we have to go away from our home. We gotta give up home games and play a lot of games on neutral sites in order for us to do that. But to stay in this space and to be competitive, you have to do some out-the-box things. Now, understand, we lead the nation in attendance for the past 10 years. So to give up a home game might mean you're giving up some wins that you would have had at home.
25:21 Craig Robinson? Some wins and some revenue.
25:23 Speaker 00 Yes, and revenue, yes.
25:24 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
25:25 Speaker 00 Yes, yes. But revenue for... Actually, it's not really. We probably lose money hosting.
25:34 Craig Robinson? Home games?
25:36 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the concession people make out, you know, but to put the, turn the lights on and the...
25:43 Michelle Obama? Mm-hmm. How are the fans receiving it? The Gamecock fans, how are they feeling about the NIL switch and players' attitudes? Is there any pushback? Are fans supportive of athletes getting paid?
25:58 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm supportive of it.
26:00 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I really am.
26:01 Speaker 00 I think it's long overdue.
26:03 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
26:04 Speaker 00 I do think it's out of control as well. So we gotta find a way to balance, to keep it amateur, an amateur sport, while allowing young people to go out there and benefit from their name, image, and likeness. Because five years ago...
26:23 Speaker 00 It was all the N C two A benefiting from.
26:27 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
26:28 Speaker 00 And it didn't trickle down to the players and now it's it's it's a waterfall down to the players.
26:34 Michelle Obama? Yeah. Has it affected the locker room?
26:37 Speaker 00 No, not knock on wood. I I hope it doesn't. I think I'm I'm clear. Like I I again, I'm clear. I think I do all my talking to the agents and this is this is what it is. And I I tell our players too, like, like, I I do make up sign N D As about what they get.
26:55 Michelle Obama? Yeah, yeah.
26:57 Speaker 00 I do. Now, whether they can stick with that or not, some of them get disgruntled and maybe transfer and just say what I was making and then it could stir up the the pot. But I'm I'm very honest and I'll tell them there's a reason why you get paid this and you get paid that, right? And I'll explain that to them.
27:15 Michelle Obama? But the players don't need to be in the business of knowing what each other makes.
27:20 Craig Robinson? But but they'll find out. I mean.
27:22 Speaker 00 They they will.
27:22 Craig Robinson? They'll find out.
27:24 Speaker 00 Some of them are represented by the same agent as well. That's helpful too, in that way. They can help explain it because I'll I'll give my message to the agent and the agent usually does a really good job because they they they represent they they have the same issue. Like if they get it, if they get player X a deal for this amount, player B, who's their client, they get him for this amount, and they find out, they have the same issue. So they know how to handle that dynamic.
27:53 Craig Robinson? Yeah. Well, Dawn, we typically have a question from a listener that we want to answer. But before we get to that question, I have one more thing that you probably don't know this, that Mishaan eyes relatives are from South Carolina.
28:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
28:10 Michelle Obama? Really?
28:11 Craig Robinson? Georgetown.
28:12 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
28:12 Craig Robinson? Orleans Island.
28:13 Speaker 00 Yes.
28:14 Michelle Obama? Our father's side of the family. Our grandfather was born and raised.
28:18 Craig Robinson? Yeah. And knowing that your mom was from South Carolina.
28:23 Speaker 00 And dad, yeah.
28:24 Craig Robinson? And dad. I mean, you know, I mean, we might be related.
28:27 Michelle Obama? I think perhaps.
28:30 Craig Robinson? But I I.
28:31 Speaker 00 We got the height, though.
28:37 Craig Robinson? Excuse me, that was good. That was good.
28:41 Craig Robinson? You made me lose my train of thought. But no, given the fact that they were from South Carolina, immigrated to Philly, and now you're back in South Carolina. Talk about the feelings, the feelings you have being a successful coach in the state where your folks were from. And your folks during a time when it wasn't cool to be down in that state if you were us.
29:10 Speaker 00 It wasn't. And, and I think in the, in the book, I, I mentioned that. Yeah. About my mother and why she left South Carolina. It was, it was because the butcher, she gave try. The butcher was giving my mother some food that looked spoiled and he wanted her to have that. And my mother wasn't taking that home. I mean, my mother had that in her. Yeah, yeah. At a very young age. And he said some things to her that which meant you got, you got to get out of town. Yeah. So my mother got out of town. And then, you know, my mother was in Philly for over 50 years. And then I, I left to take the South Carolina job. And I'm like, you coming, you coming with me? And she was like, no, I'm not going back down there.
29:54 Speaker 00 But all of her siblings, like her mother had like 16 siblings. So most of her siblings were still in South Carolina. Eventually she said yes. But now to be in South Carolina where, you know, I mean, South Carolina does not have a, they have a traditionally rich racist history, right?
30:17 Craig Robinson? Right.
30:17 Speaker 00 And you feel that, like when I first got there, coaches were recruit to that. Like, like I really had something to do with that. I, I. Yeah. But now. Where I sit, you know, as a black woman that makes a lot of money in that state. And some people agree with it and some people, they don't agree with it. I've ingrained myself into the community, like the community and I are one. And I do think, I say some things that maybe some of them don't like. But I do think the people in South Carolina, they judge me off of, you know, my, my, my life.
31:00 Speaker 00 Not my resume, it's what I've been to the community. Right. Because it's easy to fall in love with the success and you get blinded by the success. But it's more of what I've given to the community and what the community has given back to me. And to be in that community, to have a statue, right? To have a street name after me. It means a great deal because I meet some black people that said they couldn't, they couldn't walk on the campus. Yeah. And they wouldn't. Yeah. Until I got there and they come to the games.
31:38 Speaker 00 And it's a myriad of people who, I mean, it looks like, I mean, if you're looking at the people that come to our games. It's a variety of people of all ethnic backgrounds, just in unison on one accord that believe in one thing. It's the best of this country. Exactly. And I feel good about that. I know my purpose. I understand my purpose, right? And it happened with my passion first and then my purpose came after the passion.
32:13 Speaker 00 And then now the two are intertwining to create something that, it's a model for, for other, other states like South Carolina. Just kind of get behind and understand. It's, it's, it's bigger than the basketball, it's actually bigger than the racism, it's bigger than the history. It's, it's become something that I truly.
32:43 Speaker 00 I love about South Carolina.
32:45 Craig Robinson? That's great.
32:46 Speaker 00 We can be as one.
32:47 Michelle Obama? And it's a reminder of what is possible. You know, I mean, who we are really as people. You know, if we break through a lot of that history. Um, you know, you, you are living through the fact that communities do want to be unified. It feels better not to have a segregated campus, to have, to be in the gym together, all rooting for the same thing. And what, what you and your team and your games remind not just folks in South Carolina, but the country of this, it's, it's what's possible. Um, and so I applaud your, your, um, tenacity and also your courage.
33:28 Michelle Obama? Right? Cause it takes some courage to, you know, I mean, you weren't always the statue named street. You know, you, you came there as an unknown and you had to build that from the ground up.
33:40 Craig Robinson? And I gotta say that you could have gotten jobs anywhere.
33:43 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
33:45 Craig Robinson? You could have gotten jobs anywhere. You took the South Carolina job.
33:48 Speaker 00 I, I did. I, I, I took the South Carolina job really not know, well, I, I did know, meaning I used to visit.
33:57 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
33:57 Speaker 00 Family trips, um, not in Columbia, more so in the country, like in the deep country.
34:04 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
34:04 Speaker 00 We, we.
34:06 Craig Robinson? We know the deep country down there.
34:07 Michelle Obama? When you describe it in your book, it's like, yep, that was summer.
34:11 Craig Robinson? That was summer, going down there, getting eaten by mosquitoes and all kinds of bugs.
34:15 Speaker 00 Meeting the cousins.
34:16 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
34:26 Craig Robinson? By now, viewers of this show know that I used to be a hotel guy. And I mean, I collected the points, the whole gamut. But now I'm an Airbnb guy. One of the biggest reasons I'm an Airbnb guy is because I have four kids now. Two of them have partners, so we're talking at least three rooms if we go to a hotel. I can get a four-room Airbnb and everybody can fit in the same place. We've got a family room we can get together in. We have a kitchen. You know, one of the best parts about it is we do a lot of laundry and it's great because you have a laundry room in these places. And what we've taken to now is ordering a place that has a pool.
35:10 Craig Robinson? So if we are stuck at home, we have something to do. So when the Robinsons are hitting the road, especially with all of us, we're staying at an Airbnb. We've done it in Chicago. We've done it in Martha's Vineyard. We have done it in Washington DC. We are done with hotels. We are Airbnb folks. This episode of IMO is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Financial security isn't just about the here and now. It's about the future. That's why we love what Progressive is doing to help people attain, maintain, and build wealth through homeownership.
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39:08 Speaker 00 Which is a good way to enter into the question.
39:12 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
39:13 Speaker 00 From our listeners.
39:14 Craig Robinson? We have been so, you talk about being blessed. Our listeners give us some really good questions. And this question is from Crystal from Dallas.
39:26 Speaker 04 Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is Crystal and I love your show. My question is about and for black people, especially black women, who are navigating leadership roles in business, community, or family. What advice would you give for staying grounded and leading with purpose? Especially when facing self doubt or dealing with external pressures? I'm currently in the process of launching my own coaching and consulting business after being laid off for the first time from my corporate job. And I want to ensure I'm showing up authentically and confidently as an expert for my clients. So any insights you have would mean so much. Thank you.
40:08 Craig Robinson? Okay. So the first thing I want to pull from that question is, you know, she lost her job. That's a big, I mean, you know, I've been fired and it's a big hit to your ego. And what are some things, Dawn, that you could give her to sort of pull herself out of that and sort of head back in the right direction?
40:30 Speaker 00 I would say sometimes whether you get fired or laid off or you leave, right? I believe sometimes there's a blessing beyond that. And it helps you figure out what your worth is, like what you're worth. It makes you sit with yourself. And when you sit with yourself, you, everybody has doubts. Every single person has doubts, right? Especially when you lose your job. And once, you know, once you get past that, because when you're dealing with any kind of problem, there's an emotional part to it and there's a factual part to it.
41:11 Speaker 00 Right? So, once we deal with the emotions, the facts still sit right there with you, right? And the fact is, you've built some great habits. Like, you've built some great life habits. You've built some habits as a leader. You've built some habits of being disciplined. You've built some networking and friendship habits with people who you can call on to help you. You've got some mentors, you've got some sponsors in your life. It allows you to revert back to those habits. And a lot of times, once we get past the emotional part of it, and we lock into the facts, and those are the facts. You're worth more than that. Understand, unveil your worth.
41:54 Speaker 00 And sometimes, you've got to utilize people to see that. And sometimes, you've got to utilize your habits that got you to that place.
42:01 Michelle Obama? Yeah. And I hear, Crystal, you know, I hear the remnants of, you know, imposter syndrome in the question too, which I think we as women, particularly women of color, you know, deal with because a lot of times, you grow up with more what you can't do than what you can do. And I think, Dawn, you and I were blessed with having parents who saw what we could do. And at least, that voice was a founding part of our growth. So, with Crystal, I would, you know, remind her, it's sort of like understanding the facts.
42:43 Michelle Obama? Is that the facts are that, you know, she has to go into this endeavor, understanding that she is capable and deserving of the blessings that are coming, you know? And that there are people with less talent, with less skill, less ability, who expect and achieve more just because their bar is higher for themselves. So, you know, it's that, it's the mental part of starting something new. It's the, there's a mental part to leadership. You've got to feel, you've got to stand in your strength, you know? And own it.
43:25 Michelle Obama? And you can't start a new thing if you're questioning whether you deserve it. And so breaking that habit, you know, especially at a point where maybe she's feeling a little down, maybe she's feeling unsure of herself. It's like there is a mental component to success and leadership is that you got, you gotta believe your hype, you know? And it ties into understanding the facts of your skills and owning that.
43:52 Craig Robinson? Yeah, now you both are wonderful leaders and you've developed into leaders. Are there any leadership skills that you can share with Crystal?
44:06 Craig Robinson? That you've developed along the way that could possibly help her as she moves into this new endeavor?
44:13 Michelle Obama? Dawn, I heard you throw out a bunch of them just in this conversation. And, you know, in just the first few chapters of Uncommon Favor, you've thrown, you know, so.
44:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, I think one is,
44:32 Speaker 00 Crystal has to find out who she is. She knows, she knows, she has to direct it back to who she is.
44:43 Speaker 00 Because, you know, obviously she had a job, right? With a skill set. And I don't know how long she had that job. But I'm sure the fact that she got the job, her skill set spoke to that, right? And things change for one reason or another. Again, the blessing part of it. Just stay to who she is. Like, like, let that guide her. Like, Crystal, let it guide you. Let it guide you. You can't go wrong when it's you. You can't go wrong when you think you're doing it because somebody wants it done that way. So.
45:24 Speaker 00 Your way is your way. If that's the wrong way, fall on the sword, knowing it was the way that you wanted it to go. A lot of times, though, your way won't let you down.
45:38 Craig Robinson? So be authentic.
45:40 Speaker 00 Be authentic. Oh, please be authentic.
45:43 Craig Robinson? And that brings me back to something else you talk about. See, my sister's always telling me that the men can't look inward as well as women can, so I'm working on myself every day.
45:57 Speaker 00 Look inside, my brothers.
46:00 Craig Robinson? And I'm thinking about, you know, the times that I can admit where I've had self doubt. And it happens even in coaching because you're you're responsible for the 15 players you have, but you can't control them. And when it doesn't work out, the first thing we do as coaches is, what have we done wrong? And if it, and I just want Crystal to understand that having a good team around you combats the self doubt. Because if you have the right team around you, your assistant coaches, your parents, the captain of your team sometimes comes back and says, hey, coach,
46:44 Craig Robinson? I don't think we should run point screen away. I think we should run chin and, you know, I don't think you're on the right track. I knew, I knew.
46:52 Speaker 00 I'm right there with you.
46:53 Craig Robinson? I knew, but no.
46:53 Speaker 00 I'm right there.
46:54 Craig Robinson? I did that on purpose.
46:56 Speaker 00 But I'll say this, in my 20, I just finished my 25th year of coaching.
47:01 Craig Robinson? Yep.
47:03 Speaker 00 The best decisions that I've made
47:07 Speaker 00 was to hire somebody, somebodies that are much smarter than I am. Like seriously, much smarter than I am, more experienced than I am as a coach. Because it is, it is, I don't know everything. But I want somebody in the room to know about it.
47:28 Craig Robinson? Yeah.
47:29 Speaker 00 To know. We have to cover ourselves. So, you know, and I was, when I was the Olympic coach, head coach, we lost our first two games, exhibition games. One to Australia and the other one was the WNBA All-Stars.
47:46 Speaker 00 I'm the black coach, first time black coach, right? So I experienced something I've never experienced in my life. Like, I was paralyzed. Like, what? I can't do this. And you feel the pressure, because you gotta perform. You can't be the one that dethrones, you know, the success that USA has had, right? So I lost sleep. I'm like, but also, in the same breath, I just kind of exhaled and said, "I have to do it my way." Like, I can't try to play all the players, even though this is the first time that the entire team was together. I tried to figure out who we had, what the substitution patterns are.
48:29 Speaker 00 And it's a lonely place, because the assistant coaches are trying to help and suggest and all of that. But the onus is on me. When it's all said and done, it's gonna be me that failed or got the job done. So I just exhaled and I'm saying, "I'm gonna do it my way." Like, if Asia Wilson is the player that I'm most comfortable with, well, I'm gonna put her in the starting lineup, and we're just gonna pivot and go from there. And that was just kind of my safe house. And everything around that, I just said, "Okay, this is a decision I'm gonna make." But in making that decision, I actually talked to the players that I was taking out of the starting lineup to put Asia in the starting lineup.
49:12 Speaker 00 She probably didn't like the conversation, but I was truthful and honest, because ultimately, I just wanted her to be okay, or be in a position where she can help us win a gold medal. And then the second thing I did was, some of the players, that younger players, it was their first time being an Olympian, I actually went to them individually and I said, "Hey, you may not play a whole lot at this Olympic Games." I said, "But I hope you use this opportunity to learn. And if you ever want to have this experience again of being a two-time Olympian or three-time Olympian..."
49:50 Speaker 00 Then you have to learn this part of it. Don't let this be an opportunity that you get, you're mad and you're in your emotions. You gotta learn. So I set them up to know that they may play or may not play. But I wanted them to be okay with it because I didn't want them to be the ones that were pulling somebody else that wasn't playing and say, you know, because in teams.
50:14 Michelle Obama? To start that little.
50:15 Speaker 00 That, that, yes. So just be clear, be unafraid, Crystal. Surround yourself with people, you know, are smarter than you that know a little bit more in different areas and you just be the conductor and you're just, you know, directing them as to what you need.
50:34 Michelle Obama? Well, and Dawn, as you talked about communicating to the team members that weren't playing and realizing that that was as important as communicating to the starters. That makes me think of another piece of advice, which is, you know, as a business leader, as a leader, how you treat people, you know, how you treat your team, your client base, how you show up, you know, with truth, compassion, empathy, honesty. All of that absolutely matters. You are the leader, so you are modeling the mentality of the team, the project, the endeavor.
51:19 Michelle Obama? You set that tone. So, Crystal, that means that you have to understand that, you know, as the leader, you can't show up, you know, half-baked, you know, when you're the team member. You can be a little raggedy sometimes. You can have a down day. You can come in slow, right? But when you're the leader, you know, every day you kind of got to be on your toes and that's the, that. You know, that's what makes leaders great. That's what sets them apart. But it is a burden, and especially in business. She is setting the tone for, for the direction and the, the way her, her company is gonna move.
52:01 Craig Robinson? So Crystal, we, we, this has been great. Really, this has been great. So some, some takeaways from Crystal, for, for Crystal.
52:09 Michelle Obama? Cause, cause my brother is the good, he's the good summation expert of it all. Cause we just talked and it's like, oh yeah, what did we say to Crystal?
52:17 Craig Robinson? I'm still coaching, I'm still coaching, I'm still coaching. Even though I'm sitting here, I'm still coaching. But, so the first thing that, that Coach Staley talked about, uh, Crystal was habits. And I don't remember the number of the chapter, but respect the habits was my favorite chapter.
52:40 Craig Robinson? That's a chapter in uncommon favor. And that's Don Staley's book. So develop habits and stick to them.
52:51 Craig Robinson? My sister chimed in with know that you're capable. You both talked about this, know that you're capable and deserving.
53:01 Craig Robinson? So that builds up your confidence. Be authentic. That's another one.
53:07 Craig Robinson? One of my favorites, surround yourself with great people. And even some who might be better than you are, because we all need to be coached.
53:19 Craig Robinson? We all need to be coached.
53:20 Michelle Obama? Forever and ever.
53:22 Craig Robinson? And Don came back with, you've got to communicate as a, as a leader. And this goes in to what Mish summed it up with was you can't be raggedy. You can't be raggedy, you're the leader.
53:35 Michelle Obama? Absolutely.
53:36 Craig Robinson? You're the leader, you can't be raggedy.
53:41 Craig Robinson? And I mean, and, and this is for Crystal, but this is for everybody out there listening. These are leadership qualities and traits that everybody can take something away from.
53:52 Michelle Obama? And that, that, that can be powerful, be powerful. Crystal's set straight. Yeah.
53:59 Speaker 00 She's set straight.
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55:31 Craig Robinson? Get your back to school checklist done in like five minutes while saving a few bucks. So, remember with Amazon's low back to school prices, just spend less on your kids. Because every dollar you don't spend on them is a dollar you haven't spent on them. This episode is brought to you by Cologuard. I knew that I shouldn't delay screening for colon cancer, and Cologuard has made that process one million times easier for all of us. I just answered a few questions about my age and medical history, and once their licensed clinician determined I was eligible, they issued the prescription and the Cologuard Plus kit was sent right to my home. No doctor's office visit necessary.
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58:30 Craig Robinson? Now, before we go, Dawn, tell me the story behind your necklaces and bracelets.
58:35 Speaker 00 Oh, okay. Cool stories.
58:39 Speaker 00 Three years ago, when we won a national championship in 2022.
58:46 Craig Robinson? I love the fact that you won so many that you just gotta think, which one was it?
58:52 Craig Robinson? 22, okay.
58:54 Speaker 00 I met this young girl with pediatric cancer.
58:59 Craig Robinson? Okay.
59:00 Speaker 00 And I was with a company that I have a partnership with, and they took me to just meet this young lady. They give her this duck that does some incredible things. And then they took them to a scavenger hunt. And at the end of the scavenger hunt, they gave her her duck. And then they could make necklaces for their ducks. So I sat with her and I used her color coordination of what she was making a necklace for her duck. And I wore it ever since. Because of strength. Like, she was sitting, we were sitting together. She has cancer. Yeah. You would never know. Like, you would never know the strength that she sat with that cancer,
59:44 Speaker 00 what her parents were just a little bit away from her.
59:52 Speaker 00 So I've worn this like for three years. Wow. Like, later on, like, I did this in May. We were trying to win a national championship that year, the next year, and she actually sent another one. Because this was getting real, you know, beat down. She saw it. Yeah, she saw it. She needs another one. Coach needs another one. Let me help her out. And then, you know, and then young people give me. You know, racist with grit, with uncommon favor, with a lot of, and I wear it until it pops.
1:00:25 Michelle Obama? Yeah, my husband has the same thing Barack has. Over the course of his first campaign, people would come and give them their lucky charms, you know? And it could be a rabbit's foot, a little, you know, Buddha, or whatever it was. But so many people were praying for him and would give something precious to him. And he kept all those things, you know, he has a drawer full of them. And even to this day now, he takes a few of them every day and puts them in his pocket, you know? Just a mix, you know, just in the same way. It's, it's perspective and it's a blessing.
1:01:04 Michelle Obama? I want to ask one thing, what do you do for fun? You watching any, are you, do you, do you like reality TV?
1:01:11 Craig Robinson? Oh, God.
1:01:12 Michelle Obama? You say that because my, my brother, but you know, what you watching?
1:01:16 Craig Robinson? She watches sports, that's reality TV.
1:01:18 Speaker 00 Well, I, I do watch sports, but I'm a little morbid. I like, I like crime.
1:01:23 Michelle Obama? Oh, yeah.
1:01:24 Speaker 00 You know, I do, I like crime. Like I, if, if I could go in person to trials, like, like I went to a double murder trial in, in Columbia, South Carolina.
1:01:37 Michelle Obama? Just for fun?
1:01:38 Speaker 00 Yes, like, it's, it's different, like, in TV does it no justice, y'all.
1:01:45 Michelle Obama? It's like, you want the real thing.
1:01:47 Speaker 00 I want the real thing. Like, it's a real person, like, like, and the courtroom was set up as such that, you know, it was, it was the guy that was on trial, like, his section, not even his section, because the courtroom was set up that way. And then the people who were, who were actually experts were sitting on this side. So I went in and sat on just what I perceive as the defense side, right?
1:02:16 Speaker 00 And then the guy looked back at me and I didn't know what to do. So I was just like, like I just said, what's up? And I'm like, because I knew the judge, the judge told me.
1:02:27 Michelle Obama? Yeah, I'm wondering, like, how do you pick your trials?
1:02:30 Speaker 00 It was actually the judge that did the Murdoch case.
1:02:33 Michelle Obama? Wow.
1:02:34 Speaker 00 Judge knew me. He's a real good friend of mine. Like, so he told me he got a double murder case and come on down and I did it for four days.
1:02:42 Craig Robinson? And you're not like sunglasses or anything. You just showed up like a regular person.
1:02:48 Speaker 00 I did. And then I stayed. Like, I stayed until Thursday. It went three, it went four days. The jury were, they were deliberating. And then I, I mean, I sat for a couple hours, like.
1:03:01 Michelle Obama? Okay, Don, you were in.
1:03:02 Speaker 00 Then I was like, I gotta leave because it's not, they're not gonna. And then it was like, you know, verdict's in.
1:03:08 Michelle Obama? So you, you lasted for the verdict?
1:03:10 Speaker 00 I did. I did.
1:03:12 Michelle Obama? Wow.
1:03:12 Speaker 00 It did. It didn't work out.
1:03:14 Michelle Obama? Was that the first of many criminal trials that, you know, I don't know how you have time.
1:03:19 Speaker 00 Court TV, yes.
1:03:20 Michelle Obama? It's like, that's why you don't have any days off on your time off. You sitting in a week long courtroom.
1:03:27 Speaker 00 But that, I mean, I, I walk. Like, I'll try to walk every day.
1:03:31 Michelle Obama? Yeah.
1:03:31 Speaker 00 It is a clear the air.
1:03:34 Michelle Obama? Well, after a murder trial, you need to clear your mind.
1:03:37 Craig Robinson? Are you, are you a Dateline person?
1:03:39 Speaker 00 Oh, yes, I'm a, I'm a avid.
1:03:40 Michelle Obama? Unsolved mysteries.
1:03:42 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:03:42 Michelle Obama? You saw the Murdoch case, all of that.
1:03:44 Speaker 00 Oh, yes.
1:03:45 Michelle Obama? I did too.
1:03:46 Speaker 00 Like, I mean, it had me captivated.
1:03:49 Michelle Obama? Yeah. All right. Well, you know, I mean, respect. Like that, Don. Thank you.
1:03:56 Craig Robinson? We didn't expect that one. We didn't expect that one. Thanks for sharing.
1:04:00 Speaker 00 That's my next book.
1:04:01 Michelle Obama? Right.
1:04:01 Craig Robinson? Okay.
1:04:02 Speaker 00 Basketball murder mystery.
1:04:04 Craig Robinson? There you go. There you go.
1:04:06 Michelle Obama? Best seller. Well, we know you, we've got a production company, so we could get the rights to turn it into a movie.
1:04:13 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:04:13 Michelle Obama? Okay. All right. It's a deal. You heard it here first.
1:04:17 Michelle Obama? Dawn, thank you so much. Thanks so much. It has been a pleasure. Thank you. Congratulations on all your success. And, you know, listeners, pick up Uncommon Favor. It is an important read. It's a beautiful story about an amazing life and all the lessons you've learned from it. Worth, worth a read for sure. And good luck on your book tour next season. Thank you. Kill it. Thank you for leading up front. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Craig. You're welcome.
1:05:06 Speaker 06 I'm Emma Grede, host of Aspire with Emma Grede, the podcast where I sit down with people who don't just dream big, they build big. If you love Michelle and Craig on IMO, just wait until you hear their episode on my show. Michelle told me about the moment at 26 when she lost her father and her best friend in the same year. It made her walk away from her corporate law career to figure out her why. That's the kind of conversation you get on Aspire. We talk about mindset, ambition, and doing the work that actually moves the needle. So if you're ready to raise your standards and take charge of the life you're building, Aspire is where you start. Follow and listen to Aspire with me, Emma Grede, available wherever you get your podcasts.
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