Pod Insights You're Dead to Me El Cid: the life and legend of a medieval Spanish warrior About this episode Greg Jenner is joined in medieval Spain by historian Professor Nora Berend and comedian Toussaint Douglass to learn about the colourful life and afterlife of the warrior known as El Cid. El Cid – real name Rodrigo Díaz – was a mercenary in eleventh-century Spain who fought for both Christian kings and Muslim rulers before setting himself up as ruler of Valencia. This episode explores his dramatic life in the period before religious divisions were key on the Iberian Peninsula, and an ambitious warrior might fight for whoever would pay him. It then traces the legend that grew up around him after his death, taking in the medieval romances written about El Cid, the surprising role his bones played in the Napoleonic wars, his appropriation by General Franco after the Spanish Civil War, and even the classic Hollywood film starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren.
If you’re a fan of legendary but mysterious figures from the past, medieval romances, and the use and misuse of history for political purposes, you’ll love our episode on El Cid.
If you want to learn more about other historical events mentioned in this episode, listen to our episodes on al-Andalus and Young Napoleon. And for more from Toussaint Douglass, check out our episodes on Frederick Douglass and the Causes of the British Civil Wars.
You’re Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past.
Hosted by: Greg Jenner
Research by: Adam Simcox
Written by: Adam Simcox, Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner
Produced by: Dr Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner
Audio Producer: Steve Hankey
Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett
Senior Producer: Dr Emma Nagouse
Executive Editor: Philip Sellars
Transcript 10,557 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:11 Greg Jenner? Hello and welcome to You're Dead to Me, the Radio 4 comedy podcast that takes history seriously. My name's Greg Jenner. I'm a public historian, author and broadcaster. And today we are gathering a band of mercenaries and galloping back to 11th century Spain to learn about legendary warrior and all around lad, El Cid. And to join our quest, we have two very special comrades in arms. In history corner, she's professor of European history at the University of Cambridge, where she specializes in medieval social and religious history. She's the author of the fascinating book, El Cid, The Life and Afterlife of a Medieval Mercenary. It's Professor Nora Barron. Welcome Nora.
1:46 Speaker 03 Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here and can someone take good care of my horse while I'm here?
1:50 Greg Jenner? Pop it in the stables, no worries. Annie Comedy Corner.
1:56 Greg Jenner? Annie Comedy Corner, he's an award winning stand-up and comedy writer. You might have seen him on Richard Osman's House of Games, Comedians Giving Lectures, Outsiders, Late Night Mash. Maybe you've seen his recent smash hit stand-up show, Accessible Pigeon Material. And you'll remember him from our past episodes on Frederick Douglass and the causes of the British Civil Wars. It's Toussaint Douglas, welcome back Toussaint.
2:15 Speaker 04 Thanks for having me Greg, absolute pleasure to be here. This is without doubt my favourite podcast on the BBC about history.
2:23 Greg Jenner? Thank you.
2:26 Greg Jenner? The caveat started rolling in.
2:29 Greg Jenner? Last time out, Toussaint, we were on home turf with the British Civil Wars. I know you're quite good on politics and history.
2:35 Speaker 04 Yeah.
2:36 Greg Jenner? So how comfortable are you with medieval Spain?
2:39 Speaker 04 I'm going to be completely honest with you, Greg. Spanish historical figures, not my forte. All right, I know Crist, we all know Crist, right? You don't even have to say his last name. We all know Chris, who I'm talking about, Akabusi, Chris Akabusi, 1992 Olympics, bronze medalist.
2:52 Greg Jenner? Okay.
2:53 Speaker 04 I'm obviously talking about Christopher Columbus, Catherine of Aragon, I know them. And then it gets quite sketchy. We're on to Don Quixote.
3:01 Greg Jenner? Oh, that's quite good.
3:02 Speaker 04 Don Juan, you know, I'm not even sure if these people are actually real people, but I know them.
3:08 Greg Jenner? Yeah, the last two are fictional, but that's fine.
3:10 Speaker 04 Okay.
3:10 Greg Jenner? Okay, so the name El Cid, nothing's going off in your brain?
3:13 Speaker 04 I mean, first off, let's just, it's a great name, right?
3:16 Greg Jenner? Yeah.
3:16 Speaker 04 It sounds like the name of like a lead singer of like a Spanish punk band, do you know what I mean?
3:20 Greg Jenner? Yes.
3:20 Speaker 04 And also a cleaning product, you know, El Cid and the dirt is quitado, you know? That's what's ringing for me when you say El Cid, but no, I don't know who he is.
3:31 Greg Jenner? Okay, well, you know, that's fine, that's all good. I mean, I, I mean, I think I'm older than you, so for me, I, the movie comes to mind, but you, you know, you're a younger man. So clearly you haven't got that, um, that kind of nostalgia going away.
3:43 Speaker 04 So my nan used to have lots of VHSs, so she used to record lots of old movies. So I didn't want, I might be making this up, but I think I might have seen, was it like a really old 1960s movie? With the guy from Planet of the Apes in it?
3:56 Greg Jenner? That's it, Chanteston.
3:57 Speaker 04 Not the ape, the humor guy, okay, cool.
3:59 Greg Jenner? Yes, El Cid was an ape, yeah, weird, yeah, weird casting, yeah.
4:03 Speaker 04 But all I remember from that film is it was quite long. And then like they strapped him onto a horse at the end.
4:10 Greg Jenner? Very good knowledge.
4:11 Speaker 04 That's all I know. I don't know if, I'm intrigued to know, nor if that is actually historically accurate. It didn't feel like it at the time, I'll be honest, it felt like a stretch.
4:26 Greg Jenner? This is the So What Do You Know? This is where I have a go at guessing what you, our lovely listener, will know about today's subject. And if you're tuning in from Spain, you will probably be familiar with El Cid. For everyone else, I reckon you're kind of where Toussaint is, half remembering a dead guy on a horse. From the classic 1961 movie, El Cid, starring Charlton Heston and Sophia Loren, she did not play the horse, just checking. And listener, actually, if you're in the UK, you can watch the El Cid movie on BBC iPlayer. It's there right now and it's there for a while. And of course, in that movie, El Cid is portrayed as a Christian hero who fights Muslim invaders. If you're a gamer, like me a bit, you will know El Cid from the Crusader Kings games and the Total War games, my absolute faves. But who was the man behind the myth? Does his real life live up to legend?
5:11 Greg Jenner? And can a corpse really lead an army? Let's find out. Okey dokey. Nora, we're calling this guy El Cid. First name El, last name Cid?
5:21 Speaker 03 I'm afraid not. El is the Castilian vernacular 'the', and Cid comes from the Arabic, it's a distorted Arabic term from Said, 'lord'. It used to be thought that he was called Mi'osid, 'my lord', by his Muslim subjects, and that it was a unique honorific. This has now been very much questioned, because the first source that calls him that is later, after he died. He was called Campeador, 'battler', in his lifetime. And so it may well be that even Cid, but certainly El Cid, the lord, is just kind of part of the later legend already. But to complicate things a little further, we now also know that around 1,100 other people
6:06 Speaker 03 started to be called Mi'osid in the region, and that Cid was already a kind of personal name from the Arabic, came into the Castilian vernacular as a personal name. So either he was not called Mi'osid at all while he was alive, or if he was, it wasn't unique.
6:26 Speaker 04 So to summarise, either everyone was called El Cid, or no one was called El Cid.
6:31 Greg Jenner? Right, that's good. Do we have a real name for him though? Do you want to give us a guess and what, a good Spanish name for this fellow?
6:38 Speaker 04 I mean, this could get quite stereotyping.
6:43 Speaker 04 I think my favorite Spanish name has to be Rafael, Rafael Nadal, yeah.
6:49 Greg Jenner? Okay, so you think he's a tennis player?
6:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think, yeah, maybe a little bit of rackets.
6:53 Greg Jenner? Okay, does he have a very strong backhand, Nora?
6:55 Speaker 03 Perhaps he did, but you got the first letter, right?
6:58 Greg Jenner? Ooh.
6:58 Speaker 04 Okay, correct.
7:00 Speaker 03 The R is correct.
7:01 Speaker 04 I'll take that.
7:02 Greg Jenner? Do we have another guess? We could play hangman.
7:06 Speaker 04 Roberto?
7:07 Greg Jenner? No, that would be more Italian, I think, wouldn't it? Yeah, okay. Nora, what's our?
7:11 Speaker 03 Rodrigo.
7:12 Greg Jenner? Rodrigo.
7:13 Speaker 03 Diaz or Rui Diaz. So at the time Rodrigo and Rui were sort of the same name.
7:17 Greg Jenner? Is Diaz a surname or is it a middle name?
7:20 Speaker 03 So Diaz is basically, they used patronymics, so from your father's name, you had this. So his father was Diego, so he was Diaz, yeah.
7:28 Greg Jenner? Okay, so Rodrigo Diaz, not really Elsie'd until later on, so we'll call him Rodrigo. We'll call him Rodrigo, that's the guy. Okay, we've done a full episode already, listeners, on Al-Andalus, which you can go listen to in the back catalogue, it's lots of fun. But can we have a quick refresher? What sort of world is Rodrigo Diaz born into? When in history and what's his class status?
7:51 Speaker 03 It was a time of opportunity and political upheaval. We don't really know exactly when he was born, but it's kind of middle of the 11th century. So to go back a little bit, in the early 8th century, an Arab-led Berber conquest arrived in the Iberian Peninsula. And in the wake of that, Al-Andalus, a Muslim society developed. And this Al-Andalus was the main power on the Iberian Peninsula for quite a long time, until 1031, when the last Caliph, Hisham III, was overthrown.
8:27 Greg Jenner? You've mentioned the Arabs and the Berbers there. Could you explain the differences between them? Because I think maybe some of our listeners, including myself, might not know the subtle nuances.
8:38 Speaker 03 Yeah, so the Arabs converted to Islam were the first followers of Muhammad. The Berbers of North Africa were relatively recently converted or not yet quite converted to Islam at this point. So the leadership consisted of the Arabs, but a lot of the army invading the peninsula were Berbers from North Africa. And then Al-Andalus fragmented into a lot of what are called Taifa principalities. There were thirty-three of them initially.
9:05 Greg Jenner? Wow, so one kingdom turned into thirty-three.
9:07 Speaker 03 Exactly.
9:08 Greg Jenner? That's a nightmare.
9:09 Speaker 03 So huge change. And it also meant that the northern Christian kingdoms, which were slowly emerging after the early eighth century, by the eleventh century, there was Leon, Castile and Aragon, who were the main players on the Christian side. They now had the upper hand. So these Christians from the north could start raiding into the south. They took plunder, but they also destroyed property, infrastructure. And this gave rise to what has been called a protection racket. So the northerners could say, if you pay us in gold, we are not going to raid you. So the Muslims of the south were sending all these treasures north.
9:51 Speaker 04 That sounds very Christian, yeah.
9:55 Greg Jenner? So Toussaint, what do you think of Pequeno Rodrigo's childhood? You know, what do you imagine his childhood was like? What class do you think he's born into? And what do you think his early days are?
10:04 Speaker 04 Well, he ended up as my lord, the lord. So I guess there's got to be some sort of lordiness involved in his childhood.
10:14 Greg Jenner? Is that a technical term?
10:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, I'm from Louisville, I have no idea. I think he wasn't a commoner. So I'm going to pitch him, but he was a fighter, right? So actually, he can't have been that high up because they didn't get their hands dirty.
10:28 Greg Jenner? Okay.
10:29 Speaker 04 So I'm thinking, I guess he quit with like middle class. Maybe he's like, you know, lower middle class, like, you know, he was middle class, but he, you know, he would secretly shop at Lidl's. He's that, in terms of nobility, that's kind of where he was back then. I don't know, I have no idea.
10:43 Greg Jenner? I think that's a really good guess. I think that's a good summary, Nora. I guess we... You said ten forty-three for his birth range up until maybe ten fifty-seven.
10:52 Speaker 03 Yeah, so we don't actually know. They try to calculate this based on his appearance.
10:56 Greg Jenner? A fourteen-year spread on when he's born.
10:58 Speaker 03 Yeah, because basically from, you know, counting back from the time we already know that he was a warrior, people try to kind of calculate. So the most likely date is really kind of late forties, ten forties. But yeah, and sorry to disappoint you, or maybe this is cheerful news, but actually, people did get their hands dirty, or at least bloody, coming from the aristocracy. So that is where he came from. We know for his father, who was Diego Lena, who was definitely from the aristocracy. And one source from the twelfth century mentions that his mother was also from the aristocracy, but there are debates about who exactly she was. He would have been taught how to ride a horse, equestrian skills, how to hunt, how to use weapons.
11:43 Speaker 03 He probably served some kind of military apprenticeship. He was taught some sort of rudiments of writing and perhaps reading. Even though we don't really know anything for him as such, we can be fairly certain from these analogies. We know that he appeared at the court of the then Infante Sancho, so Prince, who later on became Sancho the Second. So in the early ten sixties, he appears as a warrior. And when Sancho becomes king, ten sixty-five, Rodrigo is kind of an established warrior and he leads the king's retinue. So he's clearly in a very high.
12:23 Greg Jenner? So he's a knight. Are we sort of, is that where we can sort of pitch him? He's a warrior class, aristocratic and a fighter?
12:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
12:31 Greg Jenner? Okay. And you said Sancho the Second, he's the king of Leon Castile. Is that a combination of two kingdoms that have been smushed together?
12:38 Speaker 03 Yes, exactly. So Spanish kingdoms at this time are joined, then separated, then joined again. So, yeah.
12:47 Speaker 04 Quite troubled relationship, yeah.
12:50 Greg Jenner? We're getting hints that court policy could be messy simply by the kind of the fusion of kingdoms and the breaking up of the typhus. What do you imagine the kind of opportunities are for a knight at this point in in Spanish history?
13:01 Speaker 04 I mean, it all feels quite turbulent and stuff like that. And you mentioned the raiding and stuff like that and the opportunity. So I imagine it's a lot of a lucrative market for a for a capable capable knight to make his name and fortune, I think.
13:18 Greg Jenner? I think that's certainly where we're heading, I think, actually. Although in the early phase, he's meant to be loyal to the king, but the king does die. So when a king dies, all bets are off, right? So tell us what happens.
13:30 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, I guess sibling rivalry was a whole other thing at the time. So Fernando I, who was king of Leon Castil, left his realm divided between his three sons when he died in 1065.
13:44 Greg Jenner? Oh, he did a king layer.
13:45 Speaker 03 So, yes.
13:46 Speaker 04 Absolute rookie, what he did.
13:48 Speaker 03 Sancho II, Alfonso VI, and Garcia II. And they immediately started fighting it out. So first, Alfonso and Sancho together defeated and exiled Garcia. And then Sancho turned against Alfonso and defeated and exiled him. And then he started besieging a fortress of his sister, Uraca.
14:09 Greg Jenner? His sister as well.
14:10 Speaker 03 And met a very sticky end because apparently an assassin stuck a spear in his back. But according to later legend, his death was even messier. According to that legend, one of Uraca's nobles pretended to switch sides and went to Sancho and said, I'm going to show you this weak spot in the wall where you can take the fortress. So lured the king away. And then when he was very far from his men and he was relieving himself, he was killed.
14:39 Greg Jenner? Oh.
14:40 Speaker 03 That allowed Alfonso to return and claim the throne.
14:44 Speaker 04 I'm sorry, but can you still be called an assassin if you kill them with a spear? That's hardly subtle, is it?
14:51 Greg Jenner? And also, killing someone when they're going to the toilet trousers down, that's just a low blood. Low. I mean, come on.
14:57 Speaker 04 Literally.
14:58 Greg Jenner? Literally a low blow. Who's the king now? I've lost, I've lost track of who.
15:02 Speaker 03 Alfonso VI.
15:03 Greg Jenner? Thank you. Alfonso VI is now king.
15:05 Speaker 03 He reunites Sloane Castile.
15:07 Greg Jenner? Okay, so he brings the kingdoms back together. Great. Toussaint, how do you think Rodrigo Diaz navigated this, this new court politics now that, you know, the siblings have fought it out? What do you reckon he does?
15:18 Speaker 04 I mean, you've got to get straight in there with the new king, right?
15:21 Greg Jenner? All right.
15:21 Speaker 04 That's got to be your go to move, right? I didn't even like Sancho the second. You were always my favorite, Alfonso. Come on. Alfonso VI, let's go.
15:31 Greg Jenner? Okay, you're a smooth talker. Okay, I can, I can see that. Nora, was Rodrigo, you know, was he smooth and loyal to the new king? Did he, you know, fair with a friend or absolutely ride or die with the new king?
15:44 Speaker 03 Well, loyalty was definitely not Rodrigo's strong suit. So you're quite right about sort of immediately wanting to kind of get on the good side of the king. So yeah, he basically switched to Alfonso's court and he became one of Alfonso's warriors. While at the royal court, he then participated in more raids and extorting wealth. But he also participated as other aristocrats at the court in legal judgments or judging cases, in witnessing documents. Eventually, he fell out with Alfonso. So Alfonso was the protector of one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms, Toledo.
16:25 Speaker 03 But when there was a Muslim attack, a plundering attack against Castile, Rodrigo retaliated by raiding Toledo. So obviously that put Alfonso in a very nasty spot because one of his own warriors was raiding an area he was supposed to be protecting. So Alfonso ended up exiling Rodrigo.
16:48 Speaker 04 It feels like he's a guy, he doesn't like having a boss. It feels like he wants to work for himself, you know what I mean? He feels like he's more suited to kind of like being self-employed.
16:58 Greg Jenner? Freelance, if you will.
17:00 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah. Someone who really on the battlefield put the lance into freelance.
17:04 Greg Jenner? Exactly. The trees in the back, yeah. Okay, so he's switching sides already. Not a great sign. So if you were forced into exile, what's the one thing you wouldn't want to leave behind?
17:16 Speaker 04 My pillow, because I've got a memory foam pillow, so I've worked really hard on that. You know, it really knows me at this point, so I wouldn't want to leave that. I'm not sure what Rodrigo's got that's like that.
17:28 Greg Jenner? And in terms of family, you'd want to bring your family with you too?
17:30 Speaker 04 Of course, yeah, them as well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:32 Greg Jenner? Well, I mean, if it is.
17:33 Speaker 04 Maybe after a couple of hours, yeah, I'd have a nice sleep. And then I'd bring my toddler with me. I'd make sure to pick my toddler up.
17:41 Greg Jenner? Yeah. Hang on a minute, I've got a kid, haven't I? I'd better bring the kid. No, that's fair. I said thing, not person, didn't I? So that's my mistake. But yes, okay, you'd bring a pillow and your family. That makes it. Rodrigo doesn't. He just sort of goes bye and leaves his family behind. And what we haven't mentioned, actually, he's married. So who's Mrs. Rodrigo?
18:02 Speaker 03 She's Jimena. They married around 1074. She is also from an aristocratic family, related in fact to King Alfonso VI. And when Rodrigo goes into exile, she takes their children back to her family, probably. They have three children, two daughters, Cristina and Maria, and probably a son, Diego, although he's only mentioned in a later source.
18:30 Greg Jenner? What do you think wifeless, childless Rodrigo gets up to in his exile?
18:34 Speaker 04 I think he's getting a lot of good sleep. I think that's for sure. He's getting his eight hours in.
18:38 Greg Jenner? Spoken like a new dad, yeah?
18:39 Speaker 04 Yeah, getting beauty sleep. And I'm a bit jealous, actually, of this Rodrigo guy.
18:43 Greg Jenner? Yes, understandable. You say getting a lot of sleep. He's a mercenary commander, Nora, man on a horse. Who's he working for?
18:52 Speaker 03 Yeah, I'm not so sure he's getting lots of sleep, actually. And he first tried to. To go to the court of the Count of Barcelona, who was not interested in him. So he ends up going to one of these Muslim Taifa kingdoms, Zaragoza. And the ruler there, Al Muqtadir, employs him. And then in succession, his son and his grandson. So after he dies and after his son dies. So actually Rodrigo spends five years serving the Muslim rulers of Zaragoza.
19:24 Greg Jenner? So he serves three family members in five years because they die. That feels like a pretty chaotic five years. In the Charlton Heston movie you know so well, obviously the one you record with such accuracy. He's a Christian knight who fights against Muslims. Here we have him fighting for Muslims. Which is a kind of a turn up for the book. I mean, listeners might be thinking, hang on a second. You know, our understanding of the Crusades is Christianity versus Islam. He's working for Islamic rulers and armies. Is this controversial and rare? Or is this like just part of the course?
19:59 Speaker 03 It's very much part of the course. It was not at all unusual at the time. And in fact, Christian kings had more of a chance dying by the hands of other Christians, including their relatives, than dying fighting Muslims.
20:14 Speaker 03 And usually in these wars, Christian Muslim alliances fought against other Christian Muslim alliances. So it's quite a misnomer to sort of see this as some kind of Christian war against Muslims. The rhetoric of Christian war basically coexisted with this kind of much more pragmatic and indiscriminate fighting in reality.
20:37 Speaker 04 He's not like this religious zealot kind of warrior. He's just like a member of the gig economy, basically.
20:46 Speaker 04 I can relate to that. He's a member of the precarious. It's this precarious situation, he's just trying to do his best out there.
20:52 Greg Jenner? But he's quite high status. So I think of him more as a sort of footballer who's like, you know what? I've fallen out with the coach, I'm going to go overseas, I'm going to go and play in the Turkish league. But in 1086 Rodrigo transferred back to his original team from his foreign loan. He went back to Team Alfonso. Did they kiss and make up? Was this, you know, was this a sort of lovely reunion?
21:09 Speaker 03 It's unclear whether he initiated this return or the king.
21:13 Greg Jenner? Right.
21:14 Speaker 03 Because the background was basically a huge shock that was produced by the actions of Alfonso VI. Up until then, kings were collecting tribute, the Muslims got used to that. But Alfonso then decided to send the Tifa ruler of Toledo to Valencia, so he just removed him, gave him another kingdom, and annexed Toledo in 1085.
21:34 Greg Jenner? Wow.
21:35 Speaker 03 And that was symbolically significant because it used to be the capital before the Arab Berber conquest. So this was very important symbolically, but it sent a kind of a wave of panic through the Tifa rulers, who then called the Moroccan Almoravids in to help them. So the Almoravids invaded.
21:54 Greg Jenner? From Morocco.
21:55 Speaker 03 From Morocco, by the sea, overseas, and immediately defeated Alfonso, who was now absolutely desperate for warriors. So Alfonso pardoned Rodrigo, gave him several forts, also promised him all the lands that he could conquer from the Muslims. He, of course, reunited with his wife and children and continued to amass riches and participate in warfare. But in 1089, so indeed, very quickly, the king and Rodrigo fell out again. This time, the Almoravids, together with Tifa armies, were besieging Oledo.
22:35 Speaker 03 And Rodrigo seems to have found a very lame excuse for not showing up and helping Alfonso break the siege. He actually claimed that he failed to notice the passage of the royal army. He just didn't notice that they went by. So by the time he started, it was too late. The king, obviously, was not pleased by this. He had Rodrigo's family imprisoned, he confiscated all his lands, and he exiled him again.
23:04 Greg Jenner? So to stick with the clunky football analogy that I'm happy with, is Rodrigo now in his free agent era? Does he get a Bosman transfer and he can go wherever he wants?
23:13 Speaker 03 Well, yes, and actually, he's carrying out what Toussaint already predicted for him. So with his retinue, some of his men deserted him, but enough were left to kind of carry out raids for himself and to reward his followers. So basically, he's now just trying to build up a power base for himself.
23:30 Greg Jenner? So he's a startup?
23:31 Speaker 03 Yeah. Entrepreneur. He is raiding various tifas, he takes over forts, some of them kind of abandoned forts that he has kind of re-fortified and then he stays there for weeks and months and scouts out the area. And then he starts really focusing on Valencia and collecting tribute for himself from there. Continues to fight against Muslims and Christians fairly indiscriminately. Believe it or not, he and King Alfonso try to cooperate again. And this time fall out because Rodrigo places his camp in front of the king's. Rodrigo claims that this is because he's trying to protect the king, but the king sees
24:16 Speaker 03 it as absolute arrogance. They have various angry exchanges and confrontations to the point where Alfonso wants to have Rodrigo captured. But Rodrigo at that point escapes. Both sides are now basically preparing for some big military showdown. They're also gathering allies. Rodrigo actually allies both with Muslim Zaragoza and the King of Aragon, the Christian King of Aragon. And then Alfonso attacks, attacks Valencia. And Rodrigo, in this amazing counter move, I don't know what you would call it in football, but instead of defending Valencia, he just counterattacks. He attacks Alfonso's lands, Nahera and Rioja.
25:01 Speaker 03 So Alfonso has to give up the siege and return home.
25:04 Greg Jenner? Nice.
25:05 Speaker 04 It sounds like just such a men thing, this. You know what I mean? Like, my camp is bigger than your camp, kind of thing, do you know what I mean?
25:13 Speaker 03 It's very petty as well, isn't it?
25:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, very petty.
25:16 Speaker 03 It's very like, your camp's in front of my camp, my camp's in front of my camp.
25:19 Speaker 04 You're on the same side, guys. This is why men need to talk.
25:22 Greg Jenner? Okay, so he counterattacks and he wins. He's left his ex-employer for the third time. They've fallen out constantly. It's sort of on off, on off, on off. What's next for Rodrigo? Like, you know, he can't just keep this up, Kenny. He can't just keep allying and falling out with people.
25:39 Speaker 03 Well, he actually has his big break at this point.
25:42 Greg Jenner? Oh, right.
25:43 Speaker 03 So, as the Almoravids are conquering some of the lands of the Iberian Peninsula, there's an uprising in Valencia. And this ruler, Alcader, who had been installed by Alfonso VI as his protege, who is very, very unpopular, is now overthrown, captured and executed. And the city's judge, Ibn Jahaf, takes power.
26:06 Greg Jenner? So, this is, just to check, these are Muslims appointed by a Christian king?
26:10 Speaker 03 Alcader was a Muslim.
26:12 Greg Jenner? Right.
26:12 Speaker 03 He used to be the king of Toledo. So, when Alfonso annexed Toledo, he just moved him to a different.
26:19 Greg Jenner? Amazing.
26:20 Speaker 03 Taifa.
26:20 Greg Jenner? You just transferred him?
26:21 Speaker 03 Yes.
26:22 Greg Jenner? You're playing in the youth team now, sorry. Okay, and where is Valencia in the geography of Spain? Is it West Spain?
26:29 Speaker 03 So, well, it's on the coast, eastern coast. And it was quite far down in Muslim lands at this point.
26:36 Greg Jenner? Okay, on the eastern coast, okay, thank you. Rodrigo has seized this city. He seized Valencia.
26:41 Speaker 03 Well, so, I mean, he had been collecting tribute from there. And so, he has men who were then either captured during this rebellion or had to flee. And it's at this point that Rodrigo decides to besiege the city.
26:55 Greg Jenner? Right.
26:55 Speaker 03 So, the siege means surrounding the city, starving it, raiding the surrounding countryside. According to one report, he actually had the people who tried to come out of the city to look for food burned alive. So, the siege is brutal, but it's actually not so much using, you know, military machinery against the walls, it's just a waiting game.
27:20 Greg Jenner? Right, so you're starving the city out.
27:22 Speaker 03 Yeah. And Ibn Jahaf tries to get help from the Almoravids, who do send an army. But torrential rains and Rodrigo cutting the dams of the River Turia floods the area between the Almoravids and Rodrigo's army. So, Rodrigo basically foils this plan to get outside help. And in the end, in 1094, Valencia surrenders and Rodrigo becomes its ruler now. So, he officially calls himself and is called by his subjects princeps, prince, which is a kind of term for. Rulers who are not kings. So it's not quite a king, but it's an independent ruler.
27:59 Greg Jenner? Prince means first in Latin, doesn't it? It's sort of the kind of the top man.
28:02 Speaker 03 Yeah, and this was the kind of title used for, for example, counts of Barcelona. So people who were independent rulers.
28:08 Greg Jenner? So he's Prince Rodrigo.
28:10 Speaker 04 Okay, yeah, he's gone up.
28:11 Greg Jenner? It's kind of worked out for him.
28:12 Speaker 04 Yeah, he's, yeah.
28:14 Greg Jenner? How do you think he rules over Valencia? Do you think he's a kind, progressive ruler, a man of great intellect and compassion?
28:22 Speaker 03 Why are you off?
28:23 Speaker 04 I think maybe that question, I'm gonna go with no, no, no, no.
28:28 Greg Jenner? Okay, fair. Nora, maybe I led a bit too heavily on the, on the kind of, you know, he's a good guy. I mean, medieval princes and kings, they're pretty brutal as a general rule.
28:40 Speaker 03 Yes, but also I have to say that the medieval sources were not particularly interested in what kind of a ruler he was. They were much more interested in his military feats. So they talk about, you know, his battles and how he devastated enemy lands, but they say very little about how he ruled. What we know is that he reestablished the bishopric of Valencia and he subject, so he asked for the papacy to basically directly subject this bishopric to papal power. So it may also confer more independence on him and perhaps kind of some plan to eventually become a king. Apparently initially he appointed a Muslim official to oversee his Muslim subjects, but
29:24 Speaker 03 he also clearly was accused of oppressing and extorting the Muslims. There were waves of emigration and expulsion. And according to one account, he had books read out to him and particularly enjoyed the biography of a Muslim general who had lived a long time previously. But at the same time, Muslim authors wrote about him very negatively. Ibn Bassam, in the, who was an Andalusian Muslim author in the beginning, at the beginning of the 12th century, recounted how Rodrigo had this judge, Ibn Jahav, also burned to death at the start of his reign and called him a clever but greedy tyrant, swollen with pride.
30:05 Speaker 03 And these Arabic texts basically have all sorts of epithets for him, not very kind, enemy dog, accursed, the oppressor.
30:16 Greg Jenner? Rodrigo the Oppressor.
30:19 Speaker 04 Not really like a very popular boss then.
30:24 Greg Jenner? Toussaint, do you think this is going to work out for him long term? What do you think his chances are of success?
30:29 Speaker 04 I think he's gonna end up with not much of a kingdom left if he keeps setting everyone on fire. I don't know if that's sustainable.
30:37 Greg Jenner? You think he's burning through the goodwill, quite literally?
30:41 Greg Jenner? Okay, Nora, is Toussaint's caution well founded?
30:45 Speaker 03 Well, he might have run into that problem, but actually he died. He died in-
30:50 Greg Jenner? A classic move.
30:51 Speaker 03 1099 of natural causes, unlike the film. And he did not leave a male heir, so no son who could have-
31:01 Greg Jenner? Oh, so the son in the source that you talked about, the Diego son, he would have died, okay, he died. And his daughters would inherit?
31:07 Speaker 03 His widow, Jimena, inherited. His daughters were married, they were married. But it was Jimena who then ruled Valencia for three years. But then the Almoravids started to besiege Valencia and Jimena asked Alfonso VI for help. So at this point, yeah, it's difficult to hold the city against this army. And Alfonso does arrive with an army and lifts-
31:30 Greg Jenner? He does?
31:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, he does.
31:32 Greg Jenner? Oh, fair play, Alfonso.
31:34 Speaker 03 He doesn't seem to bear grudges, yes.
31:36 Greg Jenner? He had every reason to be like, nope.
31:39 Speaker 03 I mean, also, of course, remember, she was a kinswoman of his and-
31:43 Greg Jenner? I see.
31:44 Speaker 03 Of course, Rodrigo was already dead. So, yeah, he arrives with an army, lifts the siege, but he cannot maintain the defence of Valencia so far away from his own land. So basically, the city is evacuated. Everybody with their possessions go north to Castile. Alfonso has the city burned, so not to leave it intact for the Almoravids. And Jimena also takes Rodrigo's remains and has him reburied in a monastery called San Pedro de Cardenya.
32:15 Greg Jenner? Wow, so she takes her dead hubby with her and the bones are repositioned, relocated to a monastery. San Pedro de Cardenya, where is that in Spain, is that?
32:25 Speaker 03 So that's not very far from Burgos.
32:27 Greg Jenner? Okay, all right, so is that a sort of nice monastery? Is that a good spot?
32:31 Speaker 03 It's a very nice spot. It's very far now from any kind of public transportation. But it's, so it's quite secluded. And of course, most of it is-
32:40 Greg Jenner? He would have liked that.
32:42 Speaker 03 Yes.
32:43 Speaker 04 You're like uninterrupted.
32:44 Greg Jenner? Exactly. He's got his pillow. He's having, enjoying his kip. Okay, so Rodrigo and Jimena, they both live quite a life, Tucson.
32:52 Speaker 04 Yeah.
32:52 Greg Jenner? How do you feel about him in particular? Are you a fan of what we've told you?
32:57 Speaker 04 You know what? I am. I can relate. Yeah. I think he was just a pragmatic guy, trying to make his way in the world, doing what he knew he could do, which was killing and burning people. That bit I less relate to, but the freelance bit I could get on board with.
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34:54 Greg Jenner? Don't get up yet, though, Tucson. We're not done yet because we're going to now talk about the kind of the afterlife of Rodrigo, or rather El Cid, this whole other guy that he becomes. So the historical man, we've talked about, we know who he is. But how do you think the story of the El Cid starts to be created? What do you think is the kind of initial turning point?
35:13 Speaker 04 Well, I mean, it was no one in that city because they were all burnt alive. So I'm quite baffled. Who was left to spread this story of El Cid to be on? Who wasn't smoking? I'm not quite sure who it was.
35:26 Greg Jenner? I mean, Nora, the-
35:27 Speaker 04 It wasn't Alfonso, I think. They hated him. But who was? Where did El Cid come from?
35:32 Greg Jenner? I mean, Nora, as a medieval historian, I'm going to pitch two things at you. One would be the Crusades. The first Crusade has happened by this point. The second one would be the Reconquista, which is the Christian reconquest of Spain, this process that happens over three, four centuries. Is it a religious revival?
35:47 Speaker 03 So part of it is religious, although the Reconquista is a bit more complicated. It's the kind of later invention in that form. But a series of people and reasons, actually. Partly his descendants, they didn't go up in smoke. So his daughters obviously had children and actually some of his descendants became kings eventually in the Arabian Peninsula, kings of Castile. So they have an interest in kind of whitewashing their ancestor. There is this kind of religious rhetoric, which is indeed important. And in the 12th, 13th centuries especially, the war that was still a much messier war on the ground, but it was increasingly accompanied by a kind of ecclesiastical rhetoric, which presented it at least as
36:32 Speaker 03 sort of Christian war against Muslims. It wasn't quite matching realities, but you have that very strong rhetoric of the restoration of Christian lands. Two more reasons, really. One was the creation of a prestigious past for Castile, because Castile by the 13th century became the most important Christian kingdom. But at the start, it didn't have a particularly illustrious beginning. So now they're looking for Castilian heroes. So here is El Cid. And then finally, the monastery, the monastery of San Pedro de Cardenya, where he's buried. The monks are fantastic producers of all kinds of stories and tales and really foster, yes, really foster his cult. They kind of create these fictional links between
37:17 Speaker 03 the live Rodrigo, as if he had already sort of chosen the monastery in all kinds of ways. And they, of course, want to attract donations and also have this very prestigious patron. And they actually try to have him canonized as a saint eventually.
37:30 Greg Jenner? Oh, really? And Tucson, in one medieval text, El cid's death was famously rewritten.
37:36 Speaker 04 Right.
37:37 Greg Jenner? You could probably guess what they say, because I think you alluded to it at the beginning of the show. Do you know what it says?
37:42 Speaker 04 Is it that he rides his horse even though he's dead?
37:46 Greg Jenner? Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
37:47 Speaker 04 He almost rides his horse.
37:49 Greg Jenner? Which sounds weird.
37:50 Speaker 04 Inspired his men to victory, was it?
37:53 Greg Jenner? That's it, right. Yes, Nora, the legend, La India de Cadenia, tells us that, what, they strap him to a horse and sort of go, gee it up, you know, and off he goes, riding into battle?
38:04 Speaker 03 Well, yes, although it's kind of even more intriguing than that, because according to this story, which was written in the 13th century and then incorporated into the official court chronicles of the Castilian kings.
38:16 Speaker 04 The horse was also dead.
38:17 Speaker 03 No, although the horse can also be an important player later on. But according to this, Saint Peter-
38:24 Speaker 04 Comes a king as well. I'm gonna get on this, actually. I'm gonna get on this gig economy. I'm not making way enough money as the horse. I'm gonna be a ruler, actually. I've changed my mind.
38:34 Speaker 03 So Saint Peter appears to Rodrigo for telling his death and the victory after death.
38:42 Greg Jenner? Wow.
38:43 Speaker 03 So then-
38:44 Greg Jenner? Good news, bad news.
38:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly. Which one do you want first? And Rodrigo prepares for this for seven days. He doesn't eat, he just drinks a bit of water mixed with myrrh and balsam. So he basically is embalmed himself.
38:59 Greg Jenner? Wow.
39:00 Speaker 03 While he's still alive. And joins on his wife and closest followers to prepare his corpse for this posthumous victory. So indeed, he dies. A Muslim army led- By Buchar attacks for nine days, they fight against them. And of course, people don't know what's going on. Rodrigo doesn't come, doesn't appear. And then after that, they put him in his armor, strap him on his horse, fix his sword in his hand, and together with the army, he sort of charges out, helped by no other than Saint James the Apostle along with the heavenly host. So I think you cannot do better than that. And of course, they defeat the Muslim army.
39:44 Speaker 03 The text also then deprives the Muslims of the victory of taking of retaking Valencia. Because according to this, Rodrigo wanted to be buried at San Pedro de Cardena. So immediately after he died, so after this victory, they take the corpse to be buried. And everybody wants to participate. So the whole town is empty because all the inhabitants go to bury him in San Pedro. So the Muslims can take the city.
40:11 Greg Jenner? So it's not an evacuation, it's just all gone to the funeral.
40:14 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly.
40:16 Speaker 04 A different take on an open casket funeral, isn't it? That kind of stuff.
40:19 Speaker 03 Well, actually, if I can, because the story goes on. They, the corpse is so intact that he may not, doesn't want him buried. So for for 10 years, he actually sits on a kind of stool in the church.
40:34 Greg Jenner? Amazing.
40:34 Speaker 03 He performs miracles and then the tip of his nose falls off and then they bury him. And just one line about the horse, because according to the same text, the horse is then taken very good care of at the monastery. So he has this very long, nice life and they make sure that there are lots of fillies. So his line is perpetuated.
40:58 Speaker 04 I'm sorry, what is this text? And what was the person who wrote that text smoking? Because this is.
41:03 Speaker 03 You want some of that, but he was a monk, I'm afraid.
41:06 Greg Jenner? Yeah, okay, cool. Let's jump forward. So he's called El cid by this point, right? The name Rodrigo has sort of turned into the Lord. Let's get to Napoleonic times. In 1808, Napoleon invaded Spain. I don't know if you know that. It's not that well known here unless people are fans of Sharp. And he brings with him a huge army and these soldiers and they bring, of course, generals and officers and so forth. And there is a sort of tension when they get to the tomb of Rodrigo El cid, because the soldiers and the generals don't agree on what to do, right? Can you tell us the story?
41:40 Speaker 03 Yeah, so the soldiers initially just loot the tomb. They're probably looking for gold jewels, but they also scatter the remains, so they don't really care. But various Frenchmen do care. And of course, through Corneille's drama about the cid, he's already well known in France as well.
41:57 Greg Jenner? Oh, so a French play?
41:58 Speaker 03 So the French play is kind of, yeah, made him known in France. According to one version, the men who became the director of what is now the Louvre Museum, Dominique Vivant, Baron de Nantes, kind of gathered the remains and put them back in the sarcophagus. So there's a painting of that. But according to another account, this could not have happened because another Frenchman, a general in Napoleon's army, who was also appointed governor of Old Castile, vindicated to himself this kind of deed of saving the remains. And this guy goes by the very fetching name of Paul Charles François Odrien Henri Dieudonné, Thibault. And he decided that he wanted...
42:40 Greg Jenner? How many names do you want?
42:41 Speaker 03 Yeah. He decided that he needs to show the locals that the French are not horrific barbarians.
42:48 Greg Jenner? Right.
42:49 Speaker 03 So he decides to have a very big tomb, elaborate tomb erected in Bourgots, so in a very visible kind of central place, and have the remains of the cid reburied in this tomb. In the meantime, waiting for this tomb to be constructed, he has the bones wrapped up and stores them under his bed.
43:13 Speaker 04 Okay, you lost me at that bit. What's the thinking there?
43:16 Speaker 03 For safekeeping. He's afraid people will steal the bones.
43:20 Greg Jenner? Right.
43:21 Speaker 03 So then they have, they finish this big tomb and with the great pomp and circumstance and all the local authorities and great fanfare, they re-bury the remains. And Thibault congratulates himself that he is now getting the respect of the locals for this fantastic deed. Unfortunately, after this, suddenly this small Spanish scholar goes up to him and says, "Well, you know, this guy never existed." So Thibault is quite devastated and now he really wants to know the truth. So he starts consulting everybody and finally another Spanish historian tells him that he
44:00 Speaker 03 really does not believe that a man called Rui Diaz, to whom one can attribute all these deeds that are given to the cid, actually existed. It's the creation of the monks who made him their don Quixote.
44:16 Greg Jenner? Right.
44:17 Speaker 03 And Thibault is really aggrieved, but he doesn't want to let go of-
44:21 Greg Jenner? Just spend all this money on a tomb.
44:23 Speaker 03 Exactly.
44:24 Speaker 04 I've just slept on these bones. It's the most uncomfortable sleep of my life.
44:29 Speaker 03 I see you're very focused on sleep.
44:32 Greg Jenner? Yeah, yeah, you are.
44:34 Speaker 04 That is deep.
44:35 Speaker 03 And so Thibault basically decides that the existence of so many stories, so many legends, so many objects associated to the cid are proof enough for the real existence of the man.
44:47 Greg Jenner? Good. We can say that he's true. Rodrigo Diaz, we believe, historically existed as a man, but the later legends are added on and the horse, the horse gets added in extra as well. Okay, we do need to talk about a darker part of Spanish history, which of course in the 20th century, General Franco comes to power. Do you know anything about Franco?
45:07 Speaker 04 Familiar, yeah, with, yeah, kind of fascist, right, kind of in the same era as the Nazis.
45:15 Greg Jenner? Yeah, that's right. I think we could sort of call him a kind of nationalist, military dictator, authoritarian. This is a hard line guy. Uses history as a propaganda tool to lift up his regime. And that regime is underpinned by muscular Christianity. Tell us more about that relationship between history, myth and politics.
45:36 Speaker 03 So Franco emerged, of course, as the victor of the Spanish Civil War, leading the nationalist forces. He was aided indeed by Hitler, Mussolini and Salazar. And once he overthrew the legitimate government, he established his own and he was in power until he died in 1975. So for the Francoists, El Cid was basically this hero who was also a kind of prefiguration of Franco. So he was obviously a devout Christian who fought for the faith. He was a leader of the reconquest. He was a loyal vassal of Alfonso VI, but especially he wanted to create a kind of homogeneous
46:19 Speaker 03 Castilian-led Spain, which is of course what Francoists were actually doing. So this is when the reconquest is really born, in a sense, that this idea that the Spanish character was really formed through centuries of warfare and this warfare was simply Christians against Muslims. Castile was the natural leader and always has been, and Spain had to become much more homogeneous under this kind of Christian nationalist Castilian leadership. And El Cid was portrayed as this first leader, and of course Franco was called Caudillo leader, exact same as Füre. So this leader cult made the Cid very important.
46:59 Speaker 03 He also, of course, was already very much part of Spanish kind of identity. So historian Romo Menendez Pidal wrote about him. So even Franco's adversaries tried to claim the Cid to some extent.
47:13 Greg Jenner? Yeah, that's interesting to me, that the Republican Army on the opposite side also said, no, El Cid's our guy, because it's to do with the Moroccan soldiers in the story.
47:22 Speaker 03 Yes, so they saw themselves as the descendants of this liberal Cid and fighting against the Francoists as the Moors and kind of the Muslims in Franco's army.
47:36 Greg Jenner? And Nora, by the republican side of the civil war, what do we mean by that?
47:41 Speaker 03 So, society was so fragmented that republicans were basically what we would call the political left, and more liberal wanted to reform Spain, Spanish society, wanted the separation of church and state, things like this. And the governments alternated between this left and right. And so at the time when the military coup was arranged, which eventually led to the civil war, there was a republican government.
48:09 Greg Jenner? Yeah, so not the current American political party, of course.
48:12 Speaker 03 Absolutely not.
48:13 Greg Jenner? No, no, this is Spain we're talking about, entirely different country.
48:17 Speaker 03 There was more and more of a parallel being drawn by his followers between Franco and the Cid. So it's quite stomach turning sometimes, this adulation with which they talked about both the Cid and Franco.
48:32 Greg Jenner? And of course famously Franco himself wanted to sort of take on the mantle of the Cid, he wanted to sort of be thought of as a modern version. So we've got a lovely, I say lovely, we've got a distinctive mural image we can show you here, Tousan.
48:46 Speaker 04 Wait, is he riding a horse?
48:48 Greg Jenner? Yes, he is.
48:49 Speaker 04 Okay, all right, sure.
48:50 Greg Jenner? Do you want to turn it over? Actually, no, he's not in this one, is he? There's horse, no, it's not horse this time, isn't it? I've seen another one, I think.
48:56 Speaker 03 There's a horse, but it's not him.
48:58 Speaker 04 There is a horse in there.
48:58 Greg Jenner? There's a horse in the background.
48:59 Speaker 03 There's a horse rider.
49:00 Speaker 04 Is that Cid on the horse?
49:02 Greg Jenner? Yes, so.
49:02 Speaker 03 No, no, that's the apostle.
49:05 Greg Jenner? Yeah. Do you want to talk us through this mural, Tousan?
49:07 Speaker 04 Why, what's wrong?
49:09 Greg Jenner? I mean, there's a lot.
49:10 Speaker 04 I think Nora's more qualified, but I'll give it a good shot. So we got, I'm assuming it's Franco in the centre of it.
49:17 Greg Jenner? Yep.
49:22 Speaker 04 It's like they put a man going through a midlife crisis, the head of a man going through a midlife crisis, who's taken up cycling, you know, in his like late 50s, you know, like spent 10 grand on a carbon fibre bike, just racing against the passing of time. And they've just plumped that head on the body of a knight.
49:42 Greg Jenner? Yeah, yeah. He's got a sort of pencil moustache, sort of Hitler style. He's kind of balding and quite sort of pasty. He does look like a sort of Basil Fawlty type character. It's quite, it's not very muscular.
49:53 Speaker 04 Late stage Fawlty.
49:54 Greg Jenner? And yes, he's got a sword and he's wearing a suit of armour. And surrounding him are... Modern day 20th century soldiers doing fascist salutes. They're obviously of his army. And then in the background, we have this Saint James flying through the air on a flying horse.
50:09 Speaker 03 Yeah, so that's kind of the heavenly host coming to help the Christian cause.
50:13 Greg Jenner? It's a bizarre image and deeply comedic to us, I think now. But you know, this is Franco saying, I'm a great mighty warrior, a man of great martial character. So the myth of El Cid becomes incorporated into the fascist authoritarian regime, but also is used by his opponents, the Republicans.
50:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, so I mean, just to say, this was originally planned for the Bajadlos Caidos. So this was this big monument built with the slave labor of Republicans. Franco eventually was buried there. Finally, now his remains were removed. But this was to be put up there. It wasn't in the end, but it's supposed to be a kind of, you know, apotheosis of Francoist Spain. So the Christian nationalist idea.
50:55 Greg Jenner? I mean, it was painted by an artist. I've never seen anything looking more AI generated in my life. It's such.
51:01 Speaker 04 It's a proper AI slot.
51:02 Greg Jenner? It is, isn't it? So there we go. Toussaint, it's been quite the journey, the story of El Cid, Rodrigo. How do you feel about him now?
51:10 Speaker 04 I mean, he can't control what happens to him after he died, you know? So I'm still, you know, I'm there with him abouts kind of, yeah. I'm a Cid fan-ish.
51:22 Greg Jenner? Okay.
51:22 Speaker 04 Yeah.
51:23 Greg Jenner? I don't know, the Cid, a Cidist?
51:24 Speaker 04 Cidist, yeah. That is, that's why I didn't say it. I think Cidist is that.
51:29 Greg Jenner? A recidivist? I don't know, that's not what it is. All right, well, you know, I'm glad you're on his team. He definitely did some bad stuff, but I think most people in medieval history did bad stuff. So there we go. Not really a great hero, but certainly interesting guy and more interesting than a movie made Sal, I think. Like, you know, a freelancer come good. Or bad, I don't know.
51:54 Greg Jenner? Time now for the nuance window. This is where Toussaint and I sit quietly and snack on our mûr and balsam so we can mummify ourselves for two minutes while Professor Nora rides into battle, hopefully still alive, to tell us something we need to know about El-Sidd slash Rodrigo Diaz. My stopwatch is ready. Take it away, Professor Berend.
52:13 Speaker 03 What I think is very intriguing is not simply how Rodrigo Diaz was transformed into El-Sidd, but how that mythical construct then became a kind of mascot and rallying cry for both the right and the left. And of course, we talked more about the right, although we mentioned the left a little bit, the political left. And even, of course, today, now, the new right and far right again uses El-Sidd as a kind of prototype white supremacist fighting against Muslims and migrants. But very strangely, he's also been picked up as a model guy for peaceful coexistence and multiculturalism. So somebody who lived together with and learned from Muslims.
52:58 Speaker 03 So I think this is a very interesting mixture. And of course, the left-wing use of the Sidd goes back already to early modern times when this legend that I mentioned developed about him enforcing this oath so that the nobles would not accept Al-Fonsul VI until he swears he had nothing to do with his brother's murder, Sancho's murder. That turns the Sidd into a kind of person who can hold kings to justice, someone who's against tyranny, someone who's a republican. And so in early modern times, he's already represented in this way.
53:35 Speaker 03 And in the 19th century, when in 1820, Colonel Riego reintroduced the liberal constitution, there was a song written for the so-called anthem of Riego written for this, which then became the republican kind of national anthem. There, the Sidd is really kind of the representative of the good guys, the liberals are his sons. So I think this is quite a posthumous career for such an opportunistic warrior.
54:05 Greg Jenner? Amazing, thank you so much. Two minutes on the clock. I mean, amazing. One minute fifty-nine.
54:09 Speaker 04 That was brilliant. That was great.
54:12 Greg Jenner? So there we go. He's everything to everyone.
54:13 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think for me, El cid, to me, I'm gonna use El cid like when I have like a really bad gig. You know, when I like really die, I'm just gonna die, I'm just gonna die. I'm just gonna go like that.
54:25 Greg Jenner? Strap yourself to a horse.
54:26 Speaker 04 Yeah, strap myself to a horse. And like when I have to go to like, I don't know, you know, Slough for a gig or something, I'll just strap myself to a horse.
54:35 Speaker 04 Right into battle.
54:37 Greg Jenner? Anyway, that was lots of fun. Thank you so much for that fascinating insight. It's really interesting, isn't it, how these historical figures can be multi-polarized? They can, they can mean so much to different people for different reasons. So what do you know now?
54:54 Greg Jenner? Great. Well, it's time now for the So What Do You Know Now? This is our quickfire quiz for Toussaint to see how much he has learned today. Toussaint, last time, I think you got a bonus point. So maybe we need to see if that can be done again.
55:07 Speaker 04 Okay.
55:07 Greg Jenner? Are you feeling confident?
55:08 Speaker 04 Look, Nora did set out incredibly. So yeah, I think I've got a chance. I think I've got a chance, Greg.
55:14 Greg Jenner? All right. Well, let's, let's see if there's a...
55:16 Speaker 04 You don't sound confident. That didn't sound confident from you.
55:19 Greg Jenner? I believe in you. I believe in you, but you know, eleven out of ten, it's hard to pull off. So let's, let's try. Okay. Question one. What's one theory about where the name El cid came from or meant?
55:31 Speaker 04 There are lots of theories. So one of the theories that it's actually derived from Muslim. So the Muslims who were under him would call him the Islamic version of that, which I don't have to have.
55:47 Greg Jenner? Which means the...
55:48 Speaker 04 Their lord.
55:49 Greg Jenner? Their lord, that's right. Their lord of my lord.
55:50 Speaker 04 Everyone was called a lord or no one was called a lord, but that's, yeah.
55:53 Greg Jenner? Very good. Question two. Who did Rodrigo work for after being exiled by Alfonso for the first time?
56:00 Speaker 04 It was Islamic.
56:01 Greg Jenner? It was, yeah, absolutely. It was the three, it was the grandfather, the father and the son. In Saragossa, yeah, very good. Question three. What strategy used by Christian kingdoms to plunder land in Iberia was Rodrigo big into? Similar to mafia bosses.
56:15 Speaker 04 It was a protection racket that they would go in, they would mess things up. And then they would say, if you don't want that to happen again, we'll protect you from ourselves.
56:23 Greg Jenner? Yeah, exactly. Take out insurance policy against me. Question four, name one reason why King Alfonso and Rodrigo fell out over numerous times.
56:32 Speaker 04 I mean, so many reasons. Where to start with these two? Gosh, I just don't think they were emotionally available to each other, really.
56:41 Speaker 04 If we're talking historical reasons, one reason why they fell out was Rodrigo disrespected Alfonso by placing his camp ahead of him.
56:49 Greg Jenner? That's right, it's right. And they also, at one point, he didn't show up to an army because he didn't see the army.
56:53 Speaker 04 Didn't see it.
56:54 Greg Jenner? Didn't see the army. Question five, what Spanish city did Rodrigo become the prince and ruler of?
57:00 Speaker 04 Valencia.
57:00 Greg Jenner? It was Valencia. Question six, what was the name of Rodrigo's wife, who also, after him, ruled Valencia?
57:06 Speaker 04 Jimena.
57:07 Greg Jenner? It was very good. Question seven, what role did the monastery of San Pedro de Cadenya play in El cid's life and later legend?
57:14 Speaker 04 So it was the last resting place for his remains and was the content factory, I guess, for his legacy. Pumping out the merch and the myths.
57:26 Greg Jenner? Very good. Question eight, in one legend, how did the cid help his army despite being dead?
57:33 Speaker 04 He strapped himself to a horse and he rode off into battle and inspired them.
57:39 Greg Jenner? That's right, he had, he'd mummified himself, ready for it, yeah. Question nine, where did one of Napoleon's generals keep Rodrigo's bones after the French troops had desecrated his tomb?
57:49 Speaker 04 Under his mattress.
57:50 Greg Jenner? Yes, absolutely. Question 10, which 20th century Spanish ruler likened themselves to El cid, including in a famously bad mural?
57:59 Speaker 04 Is that Franco? Franco stroke Basil 40.
58:02 Greg Jenner? So he's done, he's done 10 out of 10. Can he get the bonus points? Question 11, what was King Sancho the Second doing when he was apparently assassinated?
58:11 Speaker 04 He was relieving himself on a wall.
58:15 Greg Jenner? He absolutely was. 11 out of 10, he's done it again.
58:17 Speaker 04 Unbelievable. It's a miracle.
58:20 Greg Jenner? It's a miracle, there's no stopping this man.
58:22 Speaker 04 The Saint James's apostle was clearly standing, he's flying over me with his flying horse and he guided me through to the wind. Thank you, Elsin. Gracias.
58:33 Greg Jenner? Well done, Toussaint. Very impressive. And thank you, Nora, for a wonderful history lesson. Listener, if you want more Spanish history, we have episodes, of course, on Alan de Luce or Hernán Cortés and Melintzin. For more famous medieval warriors, we've covered Joan of Arc. That's all the way back in series one. You have to scroll forever on the app, sorry. We've done Onglindur in Wales. And of course, for more Toussaint, we've gone into American history with Frederick Douglass, an extraordinary man, brilliant man, and well worth knowing about. And we did the courses, the British Civil Wars. So we've covered all sorts of stuff together.
59:03 Speaker 04 Marvel episode.
59:04 Greg Jenner? It was. If you've enjoyed the podcast, please share the show with your friends. Subscribe to You're Dead to Me on BBC Sounds to hear new episodes 28 days earlier than anywhere else. Lucky you. If you're outside the UK, you can listen at bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. I'd just like to say a huge thank you to our guests. In history corner, we had the brilliant Professor Nora Berend from the University of Cambridge. Thank you, Nora.
59:24 Speaker 03 Thank you for inviting me.
59:26 Greg Jenner? It was an absolute hoot, what fun we had. And in comedy corner, we have the terrific Toussaint Douglas. Thanks, Toussaint.
59:31 Speaker 04 Thank you so much for having me, Greg. Absolute pleasure.
59:33 Greg Jenner? Very, very good. And to you, lovely listener, join me next time as we peel back the layers on another larger-than-life historical mural. But for now, I'm off to go and beg some monks to write flattering fanfiction about me after I die. Bye.
59:48 Greg Jenner? You're Dead to Me is a BBC Studios production for BBC Radio 4. This episode was researched by Adam Simcox. It was written by Adam Simcox, Dr Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, Dr Emma Nagouse and me. The audio producer was Steve Hankey and our production coordinator was Gill Huggett. It was produced by Dr Emmy Rose Price Goodfellow, me and senior producer, Dr Emma Nagouse. And our executive editor was Philip Sellers.
1:00:17 Greg Jenner? Do the wonder products that you see on your social media and supermarket shelves really deliver on their bold claims?
1:00:23 Speaker 05 Dehumidifiers. Standing discs. Nail polish.
1:00:26 Greg Jenner? From supplements claiming to boost your mind and body? I've seen so many claims about creatine. To fake tans promising a safe, streak-free glow.
1:00:35 Speaker 05 I really like it.
1:00:36 Greg Jenner? I'm Greg Foot and my BBC Radio 4 show, Sliced Brown.
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1:01:11 Speaker 05 Welcome to The Haunted Library. Join me, Colin Morgan, as I read Frankenstein by Mary Shelley.
1:01:21 Speaker 05 A story of science and ambition, loneliness and longing, and what it truly means to be human.
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