How To Cultivate Inner Peace In Uncertain Times

In this profound episode, I sit down with three spiritual leaders who share raw insights about power, healing, and personal transformation. Pastor Sarah Jakes Roberts reveals how reclaiming power from fear and shame can lead to authentic living. Pastor Michael Todd vulnerably shares his journey from perfectionism to acceptance. Rob Bell rounds out the conversation with wisdom about finding peace through disconnection and returning to life's simple wonders. Through intimate stories and powerful revelations, these thought leaders demonstrate how facing our traumas and redefining our relationship with power can lead to genuine transformation and deeper connection with ourselves and others. Rob Bell’s booksSarah Jakes Roberts book: Power Moves: Ignite Your Confidence and Become a ForceMichael Todd's book: Relationship GoalsIn this episode you will learn:How to identify and reclaim power from fear, shame, and past traumasWhy examining the root causes of our success patterns is crucial for sustainable growthThe importance of defining personal standards of "good" versus always striving for "great"How creating space for silence and self-reflection enhances productivity and clarityWays to maintain healthy relationships while healing from past woundsFor more information go to https://www.lewishowes.com/1721For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes we think you’ll love:Pastor Sarah Jakes Roberts – greatness.lnk.to/1606SCPastor Michael Todd – greatness.lnk.to/1508SCRob Bell – https://greatness.lnk.to/484SC Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lewis Howes?

  I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyleasebook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment, moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to this episode on the School of Greatness.

• 0:45Lewis Howes?

  For someone that thinks that they've never been enough, that they don't believe they're enough, or they don't believe they're worthy or deserving of their own power, what are three things that you think, maybe from your book, Power Moves, that they could start to apply today to feel more enough and more powerful?

• 1:05Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  So I've spent almost as much time feeling like I was powerless than I have flowing in this level of power.

• 1:15Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:15Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah. And I will say that part of the reason why so many of us end up feeling powerless is because we have not fully sized up our opponent. So if you have fear, if you have shame, if you have doubt and you have worry, we say these words so casually and so frequently that they have become normalized. The only problem with normalizing our insecurities, our fears, the abandonment, the rejection issues, is that they don't really have the same level of power that they need to have in order for us to overcome it. And by that, I mean, fear is powerful. Shame is powerful. Our doubt is powerful. It's powerful enough to keep you stuck in relationships.

• 2:00Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  It's powerful enough to keep you alone, to keep you from pursuing your purpose and a business deal, whatever. It's got power too. And if you're gonna have power, you gotta have the right target. And instead of trying to target something that's gonna make you feel better about those things, we have to face off with the fear. We have to face off with the doubt and with the shame. We've gotta look that thing in the eye and say, at the end of the day, I no longer want to be controlled by you any longer. You've had my name for far too long.

• 2:28Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 2:29Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  You've dictated my destiny for far too long. I wanna be better than who fear says I am. I wanna be better than what shame says that I am. And in order to direct our power in the right direction, we gotta know who our opponent is. And so I would say to anyone who believes that I don't have what it takes, or I don't have enough worth, that as long as you believe that, it is true. What we need to be saying instead is that I need enough power to finally get out of this pattern of thinking that has kept me stuck, that has kept me feeling defeated, and that is a stronger belief. And I believe that anyone who's gonna introduce a stronger belief has to be able to say, I am this and that.

• 3:11Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Like, I may be a teen mom, but I'm still a girl who has dreams. I may have come from a broken home, but I still wanna pursue this. I do not want these statistics to end up defining who I am for the rest of my life. And so just because I'm this, doesn't mean that I won't be that either. And so being able to live in this duality so that fear doesn't convince us that who we were yesterday defines who we're gonna be tomorrow. So I did-

• 3:36Lewis Howes?

  So identifying it first, facing it.

• 3:38Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  This thing has real power. It has enough power to keep me from moving, enough power to keep me from growing. Now that I have identified that it actually has power, I want to talk about what, how I wanna extract the power, reclaim the power that fear has, that shame has, and point it in a direction that will allow me to experience wholeness, and joy, and peace, and confidence.

• 4:04Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Power Moves is all about really reclaiming power from fear, from our shame, from our past, and recognizing that power moves. Just because it had enough power to stop you in your past, doesn't mean that it gets to keep that power. When you reclaim it, you can begin moving in the direction of transformation from the inside out. Not just because I want to get a new job or I want to build something on the outside. When power moves in you, then power can move through you.

• 4:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow, okay, I love this. So when you identify it and you face it,

• 4:37Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Lewis Howes?

  as opposed to, I guess, running away from it or just allowing it to consume you.

• 4:42Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 4:43Lewis Howes?

  What would be the next step? How do we move that power into a direction that supports and serves and empowers us?

• 4:50Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I love that you asked this. Because then we need to study, how does it show up in my life? So I, in my intimate relationships, I would never speak up. So if someone projected something on to me and said, oh, you know Sarah doesn't want to do this, or hey, we're going to do this, and say, I would never use my voice, even if I disagreed. I would just go with the flow. I didn't want to be a disruptor. I didn't want to detract from anyone, even if it was a major decision. And so I recognized that the power of fear was showing up in keeping me from actually using my voice. And so I have identified it. Now I've seen how it shows up in my life. To go to the end of the day and to reconcile, how did the power of fear, the power of shame, show up? It determined what I put on.

• 5:35Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  It determined whether or not I spoke up in the meeting. It made me shut down. I got angry. Like, how did this show up in my life? And what do I wish I would have done instead? What would have been the power move that I did instead? What do, and the beautiful thing about this is when you're reconciling it within yourself, you can say whatever you want to say to yourself. Like, you may not, this may not be what I would have said in the meeting. Like, I wish I'd have told her to shut up and say, like, that may not be what you say in the meeting, but start practicing what it feels like to use your voice, to show up in power, to do the opposite of what fear and anxiety and doubt, do the opposite of that, even if you're only doing it within yourself, because you have to exercise using your own power within. Because the next time there's a moment like this,

• 6:20Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  you get to capture and say, wait a minute, this is a moment where I get to choose to have faith or I get to choose to have fear. And because I've already practiced how I want to show up in this space, this may be the moment where I dip my toe in the water and begin to show up.

• 6:35Lewis Howes?

  Speak up a little bit.

• 6:35Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Right, right.

• 6:36Lewis Howes?

  Hit a boundary or say, no, that doesn't work for me right now.

• 6:38Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah, let me think about that. Yeah.

• 6:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I suppose just going along with what you would always, your past identity would always do, I guess.

• 6:44Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  For sure.

• 6:45Lewis Howes?

  So it's almost like create a rehearsal and practice with yourself first. Once you identify and you're aware of it, I'm hearing you say like, how would you reflect on something you would have done earlier that day that you wish you had the power to do?

• 6:57Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Exactly.

• 6:57Lewis Howes?

  And start practicing it on your own.

• 7:00Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  So at the end of each chapter, we literally have this like marinate, activate prayer. So it's like these three sections where it's like, let's marinate on how you would have wanted to do something differently. And then let's activate it. The next time you're doing X, Y, and Z, try and show up in a way that allows power to move through you. And then a prayer to help you in those moments because it does create, change is not always easy, even when we know it needs to be implemented.

• 7:29Lewis Howes?

  That's true.

• 7:29Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  It's just not.

• 7:30Lewis Howes?

  What's the biggest power move you need to make in your life right now? The biggest change that's on your heart or mind or in your world that you know you're still?

• 7:39Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Marinating?

• 7:40Lewis Howes?

  Marinating and need to activate in.

• 7:44Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I am still

• 7:49Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  probably really

• 7:53Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  after, you know, because we are on a podcast where people hear things. I am needing to be more intentional about owning my voice as an entrepreneur. There are a lot.

• 8:08Lewis Howes?

  Are you not being authentic in certain areas or you're not?

• 8:12Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I am, I would, it's hard to say that I'm not being authentic because I don't fully.

• 8:24Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I don't know that I have fully owned the fact that there are a lot of things that I have stumbled into. And then there are many things that I had to really be strategic about. You know, making specific hiring choices, making sure that our brand has a certain feel, touch and consistency. And I've done that with intention. But because I act like everything just happened by accident, it's keeping me from really understanding how to serve other people and giving these tools away and to really empower my team to own what they know as well.

• 9:00Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 9:02Lewis Howes?

  So that's what you're working on?

• 9:03Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  That's what I'm working on. And I know that my fear in working on that, the reason why I haven't is because I don't want to come off as an expert when I am still learning. And so I would rather just be like, I'm still learning, than to own what I know thus far and allow that to be used for whoever needs it.

• 9:21Lewis Howes?

  Lead the way. Yeah, interesting. But you weren't an expert when you started speaking on stage either, were you?

• 9:27Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I was not.

• 9:28Lewis Howes?

  Did it stop you from putting yourself out there?

• 9:31Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  It did not, but...

• 9:33Lewis Howes?

  Sharing a message authentically and imperfectly? And it's served and moved people, right? Something to think about.

• 9:41Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I see what you did there, a little sprinkle.

• 9:47Lewis Howes?

  What is the prayer you need to hear right now for yourself?

• 9:50Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  You're called to this. You're called to do this as you are. To just keep it pure. I think that the hard thing about success, which feels like a very cringey word, is that people begin to impose their strategies onto you. And when those strategies and ideas about who you could be and what you could do and this could happen for you, it can make you hungry for something that you never even had an appetite for. And so protecting my appetite

• 10:32Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  so that I can continue to just focus on what God has put in my heart is my greatest responsibility.

• 10:45Lewis Howes?

  Yes, it's interesting. I just, I just wrote down kind of what you were sharing there. I put calling on top and then success versus service.

• 10:52Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 10:53Lewis Howes?

  And, you know, it sounded like you started sharing your story to be of service to people that were asking, hey, share your story.

• 11:02Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 11:03Lewis Howes?

  And you realize, oh, this was helping individuals, you know, a handful of people and then hundreds and thousands and millions.

• 11:11Lewis Howes?

  And you gained success as well through that process of just sharing your story and, and being of service. And then it sounds like it's moved you into a calling.

• 11:22Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Lewis Howes?

  It's what it's sounding like, right? It's, and, but how do we learn how to know when we're going after success versus service?

• 11:32Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 11:32Lewis Howes?

  And how do we know, well, this is an amazing opportunity and here's this cool thing I could do with this person and this experience and here's a lot of money over here and this project and this, you know, deal. How do we know when we're taking on success and it is truly service versus success by itself?

• 11:53Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I think the line is so thin that the only way you learn it is by trial and error.

• 11:59Lewis Howes?

  Wow, yeah.

• 11:59Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Unfortunately, um, but I think some of the qualifying questions I ask myself is what's driving your desire to do this? And being real enough to know when it's ego, being real enough to know when it's wanting to seek approval from certain industries or certain people versus, even with this book launch, like you've written a book before, so everybody's like, you gotta hit the list, you gotta hit the list. You need X amount of numbers to hit the list, hit the list, hit the list. But like when I wrote this book, I wasn't thinking about how do I write a New York Times bestselling book?

• 12:40Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I wrote this book because I was completely consumed with this idea of what it means to have power and who holds it and who doesn't, and why do we believe that it's only reserved for a few? Like I wanted to explore this idea of power and I did that, which means that this book has already been successful in the way that it was meant to be successful for me. And so for me to get to this point and then for it to become about, okay, but if you don't hit the list, it wasn't successful, is robbing me of the obedience that started the book in the first place. And so I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that people hear about the message. But I'm not going to put the success of the book on whether or not it makes it into a list.

• 13:22Lewis Howes?

  How does someone learn how to do that, though? When there's so much pressure from, you know, their survival, making money, their approval, pressures of a publisher potentially telling you you need to do this, or your community letting people down? How does someone let go of the need for something to be successful? And be an obedient servant to their calling and message instead?

• 13:47Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Lewis Howes?

  In a material world when we got to survive and pay bills.

• 13:51Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And numbers matter and all of that matters. I think defining what success is for yourself first. Because if you don't have a definition of what success is, that's part of even in the book, like I have to define what power is for me as a person. Because if I do not have my own definition, I will be stretching and reaching for someone else's definition of power. And so I've got to know what it is for myself. And then I also need to know what is everyone else's definition of success or power in my world? Whether it is what, like my husband and I, perfect example. My definition of what it meant to be a good wife was like dinners on the table at six, you know? The house is completely clean, like you wake up and the house is clean. You make sure that before you go to bed, you look a certain way.

• 14:34Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Like I had all of these different ideas of what it meant to be a good wife. I never stopped to ask the person I'm actually marrying, like, what is your definition of a good wife? Not society's, not what I've seen on sitcoms. What does it mean to be Teres' wife? Because I want to be successful and powerful at being your wife.

• 14:54Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What did he say?

• 14:55Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Uh, he doesn't care about dinner, be on the table at six.

• 14:59Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  He's not nearly as obsessed with cleaning. He wants honesty. He wants communication. He wants loyalty. Um, he wants joy. He wants peace. I would be up making sure the room was clean before we went to bed. So that like if you wake up, the room is still clean. And he's like, I want you to get in the bed so I can put your, put my head in your lap.

• 15:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:21Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And even for someone who internalizes for my husband to value communication and honesty. Sometimes I'll have like a whole dialogue going in within me and he has no idea what's happening. And he wants me to speak up. So I know that part of what it means to be a powerful wife to him is me being able to verbalize what I'm thinking and what's going on in my world. And so we are so consumed by living up to other people's expectations and other people's definition that we're robbing the people who we are in the closest proximity to of us being powerful in the roles that we play for them.

• 15:54Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 15:55Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And so when you come up with your own definition of power as it relates to your specific roles, like what is power as the founder? What is power as a spouse? What is power as an adult child? What's power as a parent? Specific to the people who you are called to serve. You're able to incubate what really matters and push away that which would try to make you perform into someone you're not.

• 16:17Lewis Howes?

  Speaking of power moves, someone could look at this and think like, is this a relationship book about power moves and relationships? You're speaking about your husband.

• 16:24Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Lewis Howes?

  It, it seems to me like a lot of people are struggling in relationships. Like there's power dynamics where there's just fights happening all the time in intimate relationships where people are dating or married.

• 16:40Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think people struggle so much to have peaceful power in an intimate relationship in today?

• 16:47Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Probably fear of control.

• 16:49Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 16:50Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah, I would, I think so. Fear of not even necessarily controlling another person, but controlling.

• 16:57Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Uh, mitigating opportunities for hurt.

• 17:00Lewis Howes?

  Like being out, fear of being out of control.

• 17:02Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yes, fear of being out of control. So, the more that I can control myself, or control them, try and control the way that this relationship works, the better off I'll be. So, I have a lot of, I feel safe. Yeah, I think, yeah, at the end of the day, I think people are searching for safety. And safety and control often feel like they go hand in hand.

• 17:25Lewis Howes?

  Can you feel safe if you're controlling someone else?

• 17:28Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  No, I don't think so.

• 17:30Lewis Howes?

  So, how does someone feel safe in a relationship with, you know, someone else that they're sharing their heart with, they're being vulnerable and open with? How can they feel safe if someone else has the ability to hurt them?

• 17:43Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  If you do not feel safe by yourself and on your own, it's gonna be difficult for you to feel safe in the context of a relationship. Because at the end of the day, you have to get to a place of safety for yourself. Emotional safety, spiritual safety, like you have to know where is your home plate? And if you don't know your home plate, and you just meet someone while you're out in the field running bases, then nobody knows where home is.

• 18:08Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 18:09Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  So, I have to know where my home plate is. What makes me feel safe is consistency, stability. Uh, rest makes me feel like I'm not an out, being out on the town kind of person. Like, I like to be at home. It makes me feel safe. And so, I know how to get myself to a space of safety. I know how to communicate to my husband because I know what is safe for me, what I need from him as well. And he knows what safety looks like for him as well. But when you don't know what it looks like, and there are times even in a marriage where you're just on autopilot, things are just going crazy, and now you're trying to like, control everyone else's movement. I think you have to know, I am out of my safety. And because I am out of my safety, I am now in survival mode. And because I am in survival mode,

• 18:53Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I have a different set of expectations than when I'm functioning from a place of safety. When I'm in survival mode, if you have a bad day, I think you're about to break up with me. Are you rejecting me? Does something go wrong? Because I don't feel safe by myself. But if we can get to a place of safety for ourselves, we can invite other people into the intimacy of our safety. We can visit the intimacy of their safety. And we can also give one, each other, space when that other person needs to get back to their place of safety.

• 19:21Lewis Howes?

  I know a lot of women, you know, reach out to you and asking questions about relationships.

• 19:28Lewis Howes?

  Based on your experience or interpretation of your community, where do you feel like women are at today in relationships? Do you feel like, what's the percentage of women do you feel like are safe emotionally? In the relationships they're in? And is, and is it about the men they're with or the relationship they're in? Or is it more about they haven't learned the skills of emotional safety or regulation yet?

• 19:52Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I, I saw a very encouraging article that the divorce rates are actually going down because people have done a lot of work in therapy and understanding triggers and communicating so marriage is becoming more safe than it once was. But I think that we also have a generation of women who feel like they saw a previous generation of women lose theirselves in relationship, lose their voice, lose their ability to explore their creativity and their power to become subservient to whoever their partner was. And I think there's a legitimate fear in that for women who feel like, hey, I do want to create a life with someone, I do want to experience love, but I also want to be the fullness of who I am and I'm not sure that the two can coexist.

• 20:35Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And they are so committed to preserving who they are that they don't want to take a chance on relationships. And I think that that is a fair perspective based off of what we can see. But I do think that when we are in relationships with our partners, that we have to be willing to make space for the reality that just because what we saw didn't seem healthy, it doesn't mean that we can't create something healthy.

• 21:01Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:02Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And in wanting to create something healthy, you have to make sure that you and whoever you're going to build with want the same things. That you're willing to create your own definition of what love and marriage and partnership looks like. And that whatever that definition is, that you will commit to protecting your definition. Cause it may not be the world's definition, it may not be your parents definition or the church's definition or whatever. But you gotta be willing to protect your definition so that you can have a bond that lasts throughout time. My husband and I like. There are certain things we want for our family. There are certain things we want for our marriage. And we're often in worlds and cultures that don't always support that.

• 21:42Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 21:42Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  But we know what it is.

• 21:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 21:45Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 21:45Lewis Howes?

  I mean, as long as you guys are coming together and in alignment on it, that's all that matters.

• 21:50Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  For sure.

• 21:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Because it's going to take the strength of both of us to maintain the marriage that we want. It can't just be a one-sided strength.

• 21:58Lewis Howes?

  What would you say are, you know, you've been married, what, 10 years now?

• 22:02Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 22:02Lewis Howes?

  10 years now? And I was asking you some marriage advice before.

• 22:06Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 22:07Lewis Howes?

  I'm engaged and, you know, getting, be getting married sometimes. Exactly.

• 22:10Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yes.

• 22:11Lewis Howes?

  If someone was looking to get engaged or married to their partner that they're with right now, what would you say are three mandatory questions they should ask their partner before marriage to make sure that their answers are in alignment? And if they're not, then you should probably reconsider being in the relationship.

• 22:35Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Well, my husband and I have a shared expression of faith.

• 22:39Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:40Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  So I think making sure that you have a shared expression of faith. Not even just a shared faith, but what does this expression look like for you? How does it show up in your world? Because everybody who believes in God isn't trying to live a life of light, love, and goodness, and conviction, and humility. And so making sure you have a shared expression.

• 23:03Lewis Howes?

  So it's not just the same beliefs. It's the same shared expression of the belief.

• 23:08Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 23:08Lewis Howes?

  That's interesting, because he could be like, yeah, I believe in God, but I'm an angry person.

• 23:12Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Right, right.

• 23:13Lewis Howes?

  And I'm just trying to tear the world down.

• 23:14Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Exactly. How does, how does your faith show up in your actions?

• 23:18Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, okay.

• 23:18Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah. I will say that this isn't a question that you would have a shared answer to, but I think it's a question worth asking the person. And that is, what is the most traumatic experience you've had in your life? And how does the residue of that experience show up in your presence?

• 23:42Lewis Howes?

  Let's go. That's a big one.

• 23:44Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 23:44Lewis Howes?

  Wow, okay, so one more time, say it again.

• 23:47Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  What is the most traumatic experience of your life? And how does the residue of that experience show up in your present?

• 23:56Lewis Howes?

  That is so powerful because if people have not healed the wounds of the past and they drag them into the present, they'll keep happening in the future and it's going to affect the person you're with.

• 24:05Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And we're all a little crazy. And if you have normalized something that was traumatic, then you have become comfortable sleeping with the enemy.

• 24:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 24:15Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I need to know that you know what hurt you, what wounded you, what changed the world, the way that you see the world. Because I want to help you clear your lens. I'm not asking you to not have the lens. I just want you to understand how it shows up in who you are right now. And what do I need to do in order to help you see beyond what happened to you?

• 24:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's interesting. Because if someone's replying and saying, well, I didn't really have anything and they're just dismissing it. Or if it is a big thing, but they're not willing to address it, it's like, it's going to impact you.

• 24:48Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  It is.

• 24:48Lewis Howes?

  The person you're with.

• 24:49Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  For sure.

• 24:50Lewis Howes?

  They might be avoidant, or reactive, or explosive, or aggressive. You don't know.

• 24:54Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 24:56Lewis Howes?

  That's a good one. Great question.

• 24:57Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And I would say the last one is, what brings you joy?

• 25:03Lewis Howes?

  Hmm. Why that one?

• 25:05Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  This world is tough. And I want to know the secret to putting a smile on your face when the world's trying to wipe it off.

• 25:14Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, that's beautiful.

• 25:15Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Lewis Howes?

  Do you think the world is

• 25:19Lewis Howes?

  in more pain now than when you were a teenager?

• 25:23Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I do not know. It feels like it. And there are plenty of reasons why I think it feels like that. But I also think social media has put it more in our face than ever.

• 25:35Lewis Howes?

  We didn't see this stuff.

• 25:36Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  We didn't see it.

• 25:37Lewis Howes?

  We would see it maybe in newspapers, or...

• 25:39Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  But there were still wars. I mean, people were still going through a lot of pain. There were ups and downs in the economy. And so I want to believe that there was, you know, the same or similar amount of pain.

• 25:52Lewis Howes?

  We shouldn't have seen it.

• 25:53Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah. But it does feel very magnified.

• 25:57Lewis Howes?

  It does. What is the, you know, you incorporate prayer in your life a lot. What is the prayer that you think the world needs to hear right now?

• 26:09Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I think that every person has to be willing to ask themselves, "God, what is it that I need to see? And who is it that I need to be to address what I see?" I think it's too big of a thing to ask, "What is the prayer that the world needs?" But if I can get people to understand that who you are in your world matters, is significant, that you are a power player in your circle of influence, then they can take ownership over their corner of the world. And it may just be the four walls of their home.

• 26:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:44Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  It doesn't have to. I want to believe that there's something in me that will address every single problem in the world. I want to believe that. All I have is this story, this platform, this gift to take the Bible and make it relatable. And it doesn't always feel like enough.

• 27:01Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:02Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  It doesn't. But I release it anyway.

• 27:05Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 27:06Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And I believe that if we can all combine in releasing whatever we have anyway, that maybe we can make a difference in one person for one day or for a lifetime.

• 27:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 27:17Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  But I think we have to be willing to take ownership because we've got devastation. And then we have people who are apathetic in many ways because they're so overwhelmed in what they can't do to solve what they see. But if we can engage in what we can control, I believe that we can see a difference. I have to believe that.

• 27:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I can't remember if this is like a quote or just an analogy, but, and I can't remember who said this, but something like, "If you want to go change the world, start with your own house, start with your own family." I can't remember who said that. But it seems like so many people are trying to fix problems outside of their own life.

• 27:57Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Yeah.

• 27:57Lewis Howes?

  Like they're... Shouting about this cause and this problem and this thing in the world that's unjust and this war and this thing, you know, changing these policies and I get it. I understand that. But it also seems like they're just not happy with their own life. And they probably have challenges at home that they can be taken care of first. Why do you think so many people try to fix outside problems as opposed to focus on how they can improve their health, their relationships, their past, their traumas, their family situation? Why do you think we as society try to fix outside versus first fixing inside?

• 28:35Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I do think that there are some people who are literally called to focus on what's happening outside of maybe their immediate circle of influence. Like that immediate circle of influence may not be their target audience, right? But I also think that there are some people.

• 28:56Lewis Howes?

  But if they have broken relationships and they're, you know, sick or they're not taking care of that first, that's, I guess.

• 29:03Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  I mean, because it's just so much easier to sweep around someone else's front porch. It just is. I mean, we all know people who would like give the best advice that they don't take. You know what I mean? It doesn't mean that the advice itself is broken, but it is just really hard to do the heavy lifting for yourself. Most of the people who are like the strong friend for other people are showing up for them, but they need strength themselves because there is a vulnerability that comes when it's your life on the line, your relationship on the line, where the outcomes directly impact you.

• 29:36Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 29:37Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  And so it can be very liberating to say, I'm going to tell you what to do and then I will figure out my stuff later or not at all. But I do think that you can only effectively impart what you know to be true.

• 29:53Lewis Howes?

  Fine.

• 29:53Sarah Jakes Roberts?

  Everything else is guesswork. But I can tell you that I found out power moves because I saw power on the platform and I saw power in the car line and I saw power when I was creating a business plan. Like I know this for myself. And when you know something for yourself, you're able to have a more convincing argument for other people. But it just requires a lot of vulnerability that many people aren't willing to step into.

• 30:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 30:25Lewis Howes?

  What do you say to people that are really struggling, that really want love, really want intimacy and connection and just deep compassion with someone else, but they're afraid to do the healing work because the trauma is so scary?

• 30:37Michael Todd?

  So, I would say to you, because I know there's thousands of people watching this that feel that exact same thing. You need to examine the pattern.

• 30:47Lewis Howes?

  Man, that's so true.

• 30:48Michael Todd?

  Because if this is a pattern of you continually getting hurt because you do not heal, then it might be better for you long-term to do the work to heal so that you can cut the cycle.

• 31:04Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 31:05Michael Todd?

  I think about, rest in heaven, Kobe Bryant, when he tore his Achilles. And he said he could come back and play before he was fully healed. He was ready. I mean, and he would have probably been better than nine out of 10 people on the floor. He could have fooled everybody. But he knew he wasn't his 100%.

• 31:32Lewis Howes?

  He wasn't his best.

• 31:32Michael Todd?

  He was not his best. So if it came down to the last minute when he really needed to be his best, he wouldn't have what he needed to have. So they took the time for him to actually heal. What I'm saying is, you may be fooling everybody. You may, your Instagram is popping, your business is successful, you got the bag and the body and you got all the different things, but you know, deep down in your soul, your mind-will and emotions, you know you're still hurting. And so what ends up happening is you come in limping to love. You limp into love.

• 32:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 32:05Michael Todd?

  Instead of leaping into love.

• 32:07Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 32:07Michael Todd?

  You should be able to go a lot higher, but because you're still aware of the thing that you need to be healed, you don't go. And so what I'm saying is, if this is a pattern, if this is, if this been the same, it was John, and then it was Joey, and then it was Julio, then it was Jaquan, and then it was Jared, like, if it's the same thing, you might want to step back and get a new perspective because the pattern is the same. And a season of discipline can produce a lifetime of freedom.

• 32:36Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 32:38Michael Todd?

  And that's where I just, my encouragement, I've counseled too many people, I've been around too many people, I've helped so many people get through this hump in their life, and what they realize is what they're scared of, they need the most. That intentional time with themselves, that intentional time with God, that intentional time with community, that intentional time in counseling. They need that because if you discover you, if you find out who you were made to be and walk in your purpose and get confident in that thing, then you actually will attract what you really want to love. And most people are attracting to their insecurities.

• 33:14Lewis Howes?

  Oh, man, that's true.

• 33:16Michael Todd?

  You're attracting based on your trauma, not on the healed version of you.

• 33:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 33:20Michael Todd?

  And so you're looking for somebody to play savior and they can't. They've never been able to have that ability in this life. And so I would just encourage those people, I know it's hard. I know it's frustrating. I know you probably even tried before. But as someone who can identify with you, like as someone who did not want to face their trauma, did not want to talk about the bad stuff that happened, did not want to even block stuff out, like, like, no, like, I'm not going there. Like, the journey that I've gone on to actually take everything that has damaged me and say, you know what, I may be damaged, but I'm not destroyed. This thing that was trauma, it actually can be fueled to make me triumph. I learned that the value was still in me.

• 34:05Michael Todd?

  And then, once I learned the value was in me, then I could give and add value to other people. And so I'm telling you, it may be hard, but it's going to be worth it.

• 34:13Lewis Howes?

  Wow. You've been married for 14 years now?

• 34:16Michael Todd?

  14 years.

• 34:17Lewis Howes?

  14 years, together 21, is that right?

• 34:19Michael Todd?

  Yeah, this is my high school sweetheart. Met her when I was 15 years old and she's still the finest woman I've ever seen in my life. I love her.

• 34:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I'm assuming, you know, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm assuming that when you met her, you weren't...

• 34:32Michael Todd?

  I was a boy.

• 34:33Lewis Howes?

  You weren't on the healing journey yet?

• 34:35Michael Todd?

  No, I was a boy. I was still messing up.

• 34:37Lewis Howes?

  You had traumas, you had challenges, you were struggling. And I'm assuming when you got married, you still had a lot of traumas and challenges, right? So how do you...

• 34:49Lewis Howes?

  Heal in relationship.

• 34:51Michael Todd?

  Come on.

• 34:51Lewis Howes?

  If you've made a commitment to someone already. And you realize, oh, you know what? I've still got my wounds and traumas and I'm still kind of messing up in certain ways. And maybe she is too.

• 35:01Michael Todd?

  Yeah.

• 35:02Lewis Howes?

  But we've been together for three, four, five, six, seven years now. Now we got kids and we're realizing we've been. Trauma bonding or reacting or triggering each other or hurting each other unintentionally. Or I've been hurting myself. Is it too late to heal and repair because of the baggage of someone in a relationship?

• 35:20Michael Todd?

  Yeah.

• 35:21Lewis Howes?

  Or can you still heal and mend and recreate a new relationship in a. Broken relationship? I'm not saying yours was broken, but anyone, yeah.

• 35:29Michael Todd?

  This is, this is what I do. And for everybody that's listening, you have to go get my book, Relationship Goals. This is not what we're talking about today, but it will help you. It's how to win in marriage, dating and sex. And you really need to get that. And my answer to your question, Louis, is yes. Overwhelmingly yes. Two broken people. Who make a decision to do something are way more powerful than. A broken person who decides, I don't want to try. Like trying turns into training. And training can change your destiny. And so I've seen it in my life.

• 36:11Michael Todd?

  I've seen it because in the reason I say get the book, because I tell you all the stuff I did. Like I messed up, I jacked up, I lied, I did, I had months of insanity. I did all that other stuff. But this is my motto, progression, not perfection. If somebody sees that you are moving forward or making attempts. Statistics tell us that their ability to have grace for your mistakes grow exponentially.

• 36:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 36:40Michael Todd?

  Many times, people are frustrated by the immobility of somebody, or the paralyzation of somebody, or the nonchalant, "I don't care, I'm not doing nothing," attitude. But when somebody sees somebody trying, their grace goes up significantly. What I'm saying is, it can't be one-sided. But if two people come together and say, "You know what? We've been jacked up. We've been messing each other up. I trigger you, you trigger me. This turns into all of this stuff." We've made mistakes. We've made mistakes. We've jacked up, we've cheated, we've hurt each other. We spent money that no people didn't know. Let's be real about it. Like, "I went on a vacation with my girls and you had no idea what was happening." Or, "Were you really out with your boys watching the game?" Or, "Come on, like, like, real stuff."

• 37:24Michael Todd?

  I have seen all of those things change when people have made a decision. Wow. And this is what I say, I think I told you earlier. It applies to so many areas of your life. When you make a decision, your decision changes into a discipline. You have to do something that's a discipline. "Okay, we're gonna go to counseling once every two weeks." Or, "We're going to meet with another couple that's older than us and ask them how the hell they didn't kill each other." Or, "You know what I'm saying? We need a discipline. We're gonna take walks together. We're gonna talk. We're gonna make a discipline." But once you get that discipline, somewhere around the consistency being all the time, even when you don't want to, it turns into a desire. Yes. You literally go from a decision to a discipline to a desire,

• 38:07Michael Todd?

  and that desire continued will change your destiny. Hmm. You can apply that to any area of your life. You can apply it to relationships, money. You can apply it to what we were talking about earlier, health and working out. But I'm telling you, this is the formula for life. Hmm. It is a decision. "I don't want to, but I'm gonna do it." That turns into a discipline. "I don't feel like it, but I'm gonna do it." Which then, one day, turns into a desire. "Man, I actually wanna do this." And then, it changes your destiny. Hmm. And if you can apply that to any area of your life with consistency... You will take every trauma situation and it has to turn into triumph.

• 38:48Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 38:48Michael Todd?

  Every single one of them.

• 38:50Lewis Howes?

  And that's something you've been doing in your health journey over the last year now, year and a half.

• 38:53Michael Todd?

  About two years.

• 38:54Lewis Howes?

  Two years. Cause when I saw you, I think it was about two years ago when I saw you last.

• 38:57Michael Todd?

  Yeah, I was a little fluffier, bro. I was, I was a little more packed on. I had a little extra weight on me.

• 39:03Lewis Howes?

  You had some extra love on you.

• 39:04Michael Todd?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 39:06Lewis Howes?

  But what allowed you to make a decision with your health? To optimize health because it's been a two year journey. You've been disciplined on this journey of health. Was there a trauma holding you back? Was there an old pattern holding you back? Was it just life was good?

• 39:25Michael Todd?

  We're on the School of Greatness podcast. I'mma be hot, humble, open and transparent. The truth of the matter was I was an emotional eater.

• 39:35Michael Todd?

  If, if, if I was, if we won, I ate. If we lost, I ate. If, if somebody died, I ate. If somebody had a baby, I ate. Like, it was like, what do you do? That you are in control of that makes you feel good? Cookies and cream ice cream, Blue Bill.

• 39:51Lewis Howes?

  All that.

• 39:52Michael Todd?

  I, I mean burgers with cheese and like, it was just, and it didn't matter what time of night. I'd find myself two o'clock in the morning, like, what's open?

• 40:00Lewis Howes?

  Ice cream, let's go.

• 40:01Michael Todd?

  Ice cream, like, and I was an emotional eater that I never addressed it. I, I never even thought about it. When I begin to gain another level of success, responsibility, all of these different things. Now it gets magnified because I'm feeling it all the time. Like, I'm, I'm responsible for this many people's livelihoods and people are depending on me to be inspired and be drawn closer to God and all this other stuff. And you start feeling that pressure and what do you do? You need to release.

• 40:30Lewis Howes?

  Food. Where do you think you would be in five to 10 years had you not taken care of the, the commitment, the decision to being disciplined with your health? But you're still on the rise. You're still serving. You're getting all this real estate. You're impacting people. You're, millions of people are following you. Where would you be in five to 10 years?

• 40:48Michael Todd?

  I would have unhealthy habits that would jeopardize everything.

• 40:53Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 40:54Michael Todd?

  Oh, well, it's how the human nature is. If you're not healthy, but you still are making great impact. What ends up happening is that great impact starts to affect you differently because it becomes a harder pressure because you do not have the vehicle or the, um, uh, yeah, vehicle. The container. The container to do what you need to do. So you need to find ways to medicate. To numb, to medicate, to whatever. To release, all of those words. Right. And that's when people start making stupid decisions. Man, what is the decisions that most people make? Oh, we're, I mean, it's, it's been the same since the beginning of time. It's the girls, the gold.

• 41:34Michael Todd?

  It, it's the greed. It's the, like, you start, you start, you start taking more than you're supposed. You start investing in relationships that have no actual benefit for your life. You, you, you start, you start becoming, you got into it with the right motivation and now the motivation is just money. And so it changes the heart and the content of what you're doing because it's not about actually helping people. It's about how many people can help me. Like, when motives change, the ways that I release change. And then, I mean, we haven't even talked about the substance abuse. Like, I can't tell you how many athletes and people that I mentor and pray for and help that

• 42:17Michael Todd?

  they're literally inebriated more than half of the day. Like. Smoking, alcohol, drugs, mushrooms, whatever, yeah. They're literally not remembering the life they prayed for. Wow. They were in some locker room or somebody's mom's house praying that they could get into this situation. And now they are so overcome with their past traumas and their current pressures that they are literally numbing themselves and saying, bro, I don't even remember, I don't even remember. So you're living the greatest moment of your life and you don't even remember it? And it's because this is what we do as humans because I don't believe that God created our bodies to be able to handle that kind of stress and trauma.

• 43:03Michael Todd?

  And so we have to figure out a way to keep going because we want the results of it. But we can't really keep going because it's killing us. Wow. And so we try to find ways to do it. And that's why I say the the safest way to get into the place that you need to be is you need to deal with your past issues. So it can change your present situation and it can prepare for you a great future. Yes. Do you think we are ever able to run away from our past or our traumas? No. Your body keeps the score. It does. Like, I mean, people, people act like, like not saying it does something?

• 43:42Michael Todd?

  No. Your body is a computer that is is taking all the information and it's storing it.

• 43:51Michael Todd?

  Stress, hypertension, um, um, all of the, I mean, we have people dying of heart attacks at thirty two. It's crazy. Like, the, the, it, there are so much information coming to us every day, all the time. So many ideas, so many opinions. All of those things were never a part of the core creation DNA for a human being. So you think about processing all of that and then processing processed food and then taking on um, all of the pressure and digital information and then um, worried about everybody's comments of you and how skinny and how like, think about the stress that you, your body and your mind and your emotions is under, not to mention that the real life stuff happens.

• 44:35Michael Todd?

  You, you have a miscarriage, you lose a loved one. Covid happens and your business has to shut down. Like, that means that something has to be prioritized. And that something is not anything external. It needs to be us. We need to deal with the issues, the lies, the hurts, the layers that have made us into this person. But maybe the very thing that's trying to take us out. Right. And so for me, I, I mean, I just know that part of my issue, even with food and weight and emotional eating, I need to delay, I need to talk about some stuff. I needed to. What did you need to talk about in order to be clear?

• 45:20Michael Todd?

  What are you talking about? I needed to talk about insecurities? For, I, okay, so I'll talk about it in the book, but I'll just, I'll just sum it up right now. I had this revelation that I.

• 45:32Michael Todd?

  Had become allergic to being good. I could only be great. I was in a situation when I was young where I was good at playing the drums at 12 years old. And, I mean, I was really good. And I was in our church back at the house and I was better than the drummer that played for our main service. Like the adult. Like the adult service, you know what I'm saying? And all I wanted at 12 years old is to play drums in the big church. That's what I called it, playing drums at the big church. And the guy who was over all the music, he was like, you are really good. And they would always give me props and all the other stuff. But he would always let this older guy play that was not as good as me.

• 46:14Michael Todd?

  And I would come every Tuesday, the only kid there for their rehearsals. And I'd be there with my sticks. I would come early, I'd make my parents drop me off. I'd know all the music and everything like that, but they would never let me play. And I did this for months, like months. I knew all the music, I knew all the songs. I was hoping that he would just fall dead and just fall off the thing. And then I would able to catch it. I mean, this is in my 12 year old mind, you know what I'm saying? But like, I, I, I knew I could do it if somebody would just give me an opportunity. And they never let me play. And I remember being on that maroon chair and, and see, this is how, how subtle trauma can come into your life. And, and this is why we have to evaluate it.

• 46:54Michael Todd?

  I remember sitting on a maroon chair in the back and I decided that being good was not good enough. I had to be great at everything. Wow. Cause if I was great, they couldn't deny me. Like if I was great, there's no way they wouldn't let me do that. And from that day on, at 12 years old, my engine changed.

• 47:16Michael Todd?

  I couldn't be good at anything, okay? No, I'm not playing the game unless I'm gonna smash you. Wow. Like, I'm not. And now, this now seems like at that age, it seems endearing. It's like, wow, this, this young man is, wow, he's, he's proactive and he's, he's gifted and he's motivated. He's hungry, like, and so now I'm getting attention from it. And now I'm getting accolades from it. And now I'm getting, so it's like, oh, this is great. I made the right decision. Like, I'll never be good, nothing good is good. I will only be great. So my car had to be great, my business had to be great, my wife had to be great, my family had to be great, my, everything had to be great. And this served me for almost 20 years.

• 48:01Michael Todd?

  Until I reached this level of success and everybody wants me to come speak and everybody wants me to do this. And we found out that my only son had autism. Hmm. So now my wife is broken. She's depressed. I'm confused. I'm the guy that's supposed to have crazy faith, but I can't do anything about my son. He's no longer looking at us. He's not saying any words. His younger sister is developing past him. Like he's peeing and pooping on himself every day. Like, what's going on? And now, my motor is, I'm, I have somebody here that looks like me that's not great. And it's not even good. Hmm. I don't know how to process this, so now I'm gonna go and I'm gonna make more money. I'm gonna da-da-da-da-da.

• 48:45Michael Todd?

  But my wife needs me. I have, I have the person I've loved for my whole life sitting here saying, I don't care if we have any more money, I need my husband. I need you to sit with me. And I'm like, well, you sit there, but I gotta, like, cause now, my motor to be great is no longer what's gonna help me. Hmm. If I would've taken all the dates, if I would've kept going, I would've lost my wife and my family. Wow. I would've lost my legacy. I would've lost the thing that meant the most to me. And this is the culmination of me having to deal with, like, where did that come from? And so I was sitting with my mentor outside of Oklahoma City in a Crackle Barrel.

• 49:28Michael Todd?

  And he was, he's listening to me talk and he just, he's sitting there, his name is Tim Ross, and he has this huge pile of eggs that he's eating. He loves eggs for some reason. And I just remember seeing the eggs and he says, so when did you have, when did you decide that your standard for this life was greater than God's? And I was like, what are you talking about? And because I'm a person of faith, we, we look at the Bible as principles and practical things that we can use to live our lives by. He said, remember in creation, it said, in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth and the star, and he told the ocean how far it could come and created land and did all of these things. And he looked back at his work and he said, it's good.

• 50:10Michael Todd?

  He created the solar system and the galaxies and all the animals. And then he looked back at it and said, "That's good." And he does all this creating on the sixth day. He creates man and woman. And he looks at him and said, "This is good." He said, "If God's standard is good, why is your standard great?" And something inside of me was like, "Whoa. I can't keep living and not even appreciating all of the good that's around me because of the trauma that happened to me at 12."

• 50:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 50:49Michael Todd?

  And now I don't even like good. I don't even appreciate good, where people would love to have good. I can't have good money. I have to have great money. I can't be good in my relationship. My relationship has to be great. I'm literally missing the essence of life and what's right in front of me. I can't even be grateful for what people would kill for because of the trauma that happened on the maroon chairs when I was 12.

• 51:14Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 51:15Michael Todd?

  And this is part of what led to me going through this healing journey and transformation so that I could really, really live life to the fullest.

• 51:26Lewis Howes?

  This is a powerful story, man. And in your book, on page 49, you have a little quote that says, "Our fruit is always connected to the root."

• 51:34Michael Todd?

  Yes, sir.

• 51:35Lewis Howes?

  So when you thought back to your 12-year-old self, where was the fruit that was in the root of your pain?

• 51:42Michael Todd?

  Yeah. So the fruit was now I'm a very successful, workaholic, excellence expecting perfectionist person, Mike Todd. But the root was I was an insecure little boy who felt like nobody saw him. So I was gonna make sure you saw me.

• 52:06Lewis Howes?

  Oh.

• 52:07Michael Todd?

  So now, everybody will look at the fruit and be like, "Yay!" Like, "Wow!" Like, "That is phenomenal."

• 52:16Michael Todd?

  But the root was trauma. The root was damage. And

• 52:22Lewis Howes?

  The foundation

• 52:23Michael Todd?

  The foundation

• 52:23Lewis Howes?

  Helped you get there, in a sense.

• 52:25Michael Todd?

  Yeah.

• 52:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 52:26Michael Todd?

  It was motivated negatively.

• 52:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 52:28Michael Todd?

  But if you never stop and examine it, it would have been the same thing that destroyed me.

• 52:33Lewis Howes?

  Right. It helped you get to a certain level.

• 52:35Michael Todd?

  Yeah.

• 52:36Lewis Howes?

  But just like the same thing that helped Mike Tyson get to world champion status is also the thing that destroyed him.

• 52:42Michael Todd?

  And this is why I'm telling everybody who's listening right now, it may be time to stop and evaluate. Just because you're doing good doesn't mean you're doing good.

• 52:52Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 52:57Lewis Howes?

  What do you think's missing for most people in order to reach some type of depth and joy?

• 53:04Rob Bell?

  That everything you are working and striving for, you already have. That so often, we're working, sweating, clinging, grasping, striving to feel worthy enough. And the fundamental good news, what's called the gospel, is the announcement that you're loved exactly as you are.

• 53:28Rob Bell?

  You don't have to do anything. You're already a daughter of the divine. You're already a son of the divine. You're already in.

• 53:36Rob Bell?

  There's this great line in the story of the prodigal son where the father says, "You are always with me. And everything I have is yours." It's interesting when you talk about, well, what do you think about God? I think in images. I think in lines. I think in pictures. And I think in like dialogue, like, "You are always with me. And everything I have is yours." So all of the stuff that we do to feel like we measure up, that we're worth, it's all been taken care of. You're fine. Now, in response to that, let's make some stuff.

• 54:06Lewis Howes?

  Let's do something.

• 54:07Rob Bell?

  Let's go do something. Yeah, but then we're coming from a different place. And we're not doing this to prove something. We're not doing this to earn something. We're not doing this

• 54:15Lewis Howes?

  To dominate over someone.

• 54:16Rob Bell?

  To somehow scratch some itch or stroke some part of the heart that desperately has been beaten down and doesn't know.

• 54:26Rob Bell?

  You're okay. In all of your not-togetherness, you're all fine. All the ways you've made a mess of it, it's okay. It's okay. All the ways you've screwed it up.

• 54:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:36Rob Bell?

  It's okay.

• 54:37Lewis Howes?

  Do you feel like there's anything in your life where you suffer?

• 54:41Rob Bell?

  Yeah, although I say that in light of how people really suffer.

• 54:45Lewis Howes?

  Right, of course. I mean, you've got a nice home, you've got a great family.

• 54:48Rob Bell?

  Yeah, right, right. So I've seen too much of the world.

• 54:51Lewis Howes?

  You're in Hollywood, you know.

• 54:52Rob Bell?

  Yeah, right, right, right. I can almost see my house from the place, by the way.

• 54:56Lewis Howes?

  You've got things done well, but we all have our own inner battles.

• 54:59Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 54:59Lewis Howes?

  And what are yours, if you have any?

• 55:01Rob Bell?

  Yeah, I'll tell you.

• 55:03Rob Bell?

  The ide- the inner dialogue that says, "Push, push, push, it's not enough." You're still earning. You're still, uh... You do an interview and later I'm like, "Ah, what did I answer it that way for?" And that like, that voice that always wants to be like, "See? See? You don't have it. You don't have it. You don't have what it takes. You seriously want to play this game? Come on. Who are we kidding?" Instead of, "I'm here. How much fun is this?

• 55:41Rob Bell?

  This is a gift. You get to receive it." There is a wonder and awe to existence. And the struggle for me is when you lose that and you feel entitled. You feel like, "Yeah, yeah, that's nice, but you know, the real world..." No, the real world is a place where you can have wonder and awe.

• 55:59Rob Bell?

  Yeah, that's like, that's every day. That's... So sitting in silence. Uh, the practice is that sort of, "Take me back to center. We're here, we're breathing. It's another day. Let's try some things."

• 56:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. You've been on a journey over the last, I think, like, four to six months where you've been surfing almost every day, is that right?

• 56:19Rob Bell?

  Quite a bit, yeah.

• 56:20Lewis Howes?

  Pretty much like four or five days a week, or what?

• 56:22Rob Bell?

  Yeah, I probably started six years ago surfing a ton. Because, and at first it was like, "Oh, this, you know, if you have some time, what a nice hobby. What a lovely sport." And I know that the surfers who listen to you will know what I'm talking about. And then it turns into something... Something similar to oxygen, where it's like practice. And I was actually doing this event with a legendary Buddhist teacher. And I was talking about surfing and then I was like, but I probably shouldn't say anymore because I'll just start gushing and it doesn't sound right. And he's like, oh, you mean moving meditation. I was like, you have a word for this? He's like, yeah, yeah, that's a moving meditation.

• 57:01Rob Bell?

  What you're describing is a meditation, but if I try to sit still on a couch or a cushion, it's not going to go well.

• 57:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:09Rob Bell?

  But I move and like, not yesterday morning, morning before last, this pod of dolphins is in the water in the lineup. And they're coming in among us and they're jumping all the way out of the water like this. And they're coming like me to you. So you almost like curl your toes in a touch just because they're like playing. And the dolphin isn't like, I'm a dolphin. It's just being a dolphin. And it just every time it does something to you. There's something that happens. Yeah.

• 57:38Lewis Howes?

  Where was this?

• 57:39Rob Bell?

  Right between.

• 57:40Lewis Howes?

  Santa Monica or what?

• 57:41Rob Bell?

  Uh, yeah, North Venice, South Santa Monica, right in that stretch.

• 57:44Lewis Howes?

  Dolphins were going right there.

• 57:45Rob Bell?

  Oh, yeah. The other day at Topanga, there was a nice big whale went through.

• 57:49Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh. That's a little scary.

• 57:51Rob Bell?

  A whale is another category of experience. That never, you're never like, oh, a whale. And I've now seen whales for a number of years and close. One time Kristen and I were stand up paddling and a whale went under her, surfaced between us and then went under me.

• 58:06Lewis Howes?

  That's terrifying.

• 58:07Rob Bell?

  Yeah.

• 58:08Lewis Howes?

  But inspiring and crazy.

• 58:10Rob Bell?

  Well, it's interesting. It is like a terror that is benign. It's not going to hurt you, but it's also like the size of your house.

• 58:19Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 58:20Rob Bell?

  And what strikes me about this is we have good things, friendly things, nice things in our lives that we're used to. And then we have things that are terrifying to us. But rarely are those two things the same experience. It's both terrifying and good. Like rarely do you experience that in the water and then in the water with this like blowhole sound.

• 58:41Lewis Howes?

  That's crazy. Yeah. Now if it was a shark, it'd be a difference. It'd just be terrifying.

• 58:44Rob Bell?

  I saw a great white breached the other day at Sunset Point.

• 58:49Lewis Howes?

  No way.

• 58:49Rob Bell?

  And I had read that they were at this spot that I really like.

• 58:52Lewis Howes?

  When you were surfing?

• 58:52Rob Bell?

  Yeah. And this guy next to me, I was like, I wonder if what I saw, I just saw, so I look over at the guy next to me and he's like. Did you see that? I was like, yeah, and he's like, I had heard there were great whites out here.

• 59:02Lewis Howes?

  You stayed?

• 59:03Rob Bell?

  Of course.

• 59:04Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 59:05Rob Bell?

  All the other people, you know, if you want to paddle in, that's fine. It's just more waves for us.

• 59:09Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. Now, what is it, what are the biggest lessons you've learned in the last, I guess, six months? Since you've been doing this pretty much daily. I know we had a conversation.

• 59:17Rob Bell?

  Oh, right, right, right.

• 59:18Lewis Howes?

  You're going there like all day until like a certain time and you're not, no phone.

• 59:22Rob Bell?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 59:22Lewis Howes?

  You're just kind of like, take your journal.

• 59:24Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:25Lewis Howes?

  What's the big lessons you've learned about doing this every single day? As opposed to just jumping in, kind of like the rat race of like be on your phone and like working all day?

• 59:33Rob Bell?

  Yeah, last year I finished a world tour. End of November and I was kind of cooked.

• 59:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 59:38Rob Bell?

  I'd been to a lot of cities. And so I needed, like, okay, I need to like reset the whole thing. So I was like, okay, first thing I'm going to try to do is each day, I'm not going to enter Screenland till late in the day. So I just named it Screenland.

• 59:56Rob Bell?

  And I'm going to work with, I'm going to take pen and paper with me. And I'm going to just listen. Because my work is creating things. I make things and then share them. And then there comes this end of a season when I have to like cook it all up again. And I have to stop talking. So that was probably the end of November I started. I would spend the first part of the day in silence. I'd go surfing, then I would just sit with a pen and just note what was going on inside of me. And I wouldn't check any phone or email till like after 4:00 PM.

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:00:32Rob Bell?

  And...

• 1:00:33Lewis Howes?

  You get up, you go to the beach.

• 1:00:34Rob Bell?

  By the way, when you do this, email takes you a tenth of the time. Because one of the things about email is you're like, I don't know, should I do this? Should I not do this? What's this go to? When, when you have spent the first part of the day simply listening to who you are and what's happening, there are all these things that are coming at you that you're burning all this energy trying to figure out. But when you're coming from a different place, you're like, oh, of course I do that. Or no.

• 1:01:01Rob Bell?

  And how many things come our way that are no's? But we're not at full power, strength, whatever you want to say, clarity?

• 1:01:09Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:01:10Rob Bell?

  And so, how many, how many times you'll like sit on it and then you'll sort of, ah.

• 1:01:14Lewis Howes?

  A lot.

• 1:01:14Rob Bell?

  And then, and then you're like, you realize later, you said yes, because you don't want you, the person to think less of you? You want them to like you?

• 1:01:21Lewis Howes?

  And then you regret doing it when the time comes, you have to do something.

• 1:01:23Rob Bell?

  And then you're doing it, you're like, why is this? This is because last February, I was tired on a Thursday and I said yes. So, as I began to think through, as I began to think through, oh. The, the more time I spend away from Screenland, when I do enter Screenland, I'm able to see Screenland for what it is. And I'm not, that's not my path. I'm not to do that. And letting that person down is the only path forward. So let's just let them down.

• 1:01:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:01:55Rob Bell?

  And I also was struck that it wasn't like we went a couple of weeks and then I was like, oh, good. I'm rested, let's go back at it. The, the interior is infinite. See, for many people, the universe, does it just go on forever? Does it just push on forever? Could you just travel if you had a ship and you could just go and go and go? So exteriors, we're comfortable with the idea of that it's infinite. Or maybe there's a door that Jim Carrey goes through at the very back end.

• 1:02:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:02:23Rob Bell?

  Um, but interiors are infinite.

• 1:02:25Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:02:26Rob Bell?

  So, and you'd find this fascinating because you do speaking.

• 1:02:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:30Rob Bell?

  It got like December, January, on a random day in January, sitting there, I would remember some event the previous July. Where I was standing in line after doing an event and somebody plugged in, you know, and, and wanted something or took something or. You know, like me feeling when, when people want a piece of you and I would become aware of it. Oh, that was actually a deeply draining, troubling interaction. But in the moment. We gotta keep going, here we go, da-da-da. And I didn't spend time thinking about what that was.

• 1:03:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:03:10Rob Bell?

  And that's in there. It's like we store, they talk about a pain body. We store all these experiences we have and we're carrying them around. No wonder a relationship can be hard to sustain. This person isn't even aware of the stuff they're carrying around. And this other person has got a world of wound, desire, pain, hurt, loss. And then they're trying to connect when we often aren't even connected with what's happening inside of ourselves. Yeah, and that's what's, so now I'm like four or five months in.

• 1:03:43Lewis Howes?

  Still going, every day?

• 1:03:45Rob Bell?

  And now my day is completely backwards from what it used to be. I used to wake up, turn on the email, and then it's like, here we go. And now I'm like, it'll be there. It'll be there when we get to it.

• 1:03:56Lewis Howes?

  And what's the big thing you've learned about this journey?

• 1:03:59Rob Bell?

  Most emergencies aren't.

• 1:04:02Rob Bell?

  And...

• 1:04:04Lewis Howes?

  You feel more productive then?

• 1:04:06Rob Bell?

  Oh, wait, oh, 10 times more.

• 1:04:08Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:04:08Rob Bell?

  And that you taking good care of yourself, which is not rocket science, is the best way that you serve others. And how you just start giving little pieces of yourself away and then wonder why you feel like a shell. And it feels selfish and it feels counterintuitive and it feels like, oh, you're just... But it's actually the best way that you give yourself to the world. Is you begin by whatever practices, habits, routines, rituals, actually hold you together.

• 1:04:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:04:41Rob Bell?

  Yeah, that's the thing right there.

• 1:04:42Lewis Howes?

  Sounds nice for you, but most men are probably thinking like, oh, my wife would never let me do that. You know, just go to the beach for all day.

• 1:04:49Rob Bell?

  Yeah, what's interesting about your, yeah, I'm not really at the beach every day. But I would begin with, your wife does want you fully alive. And she does want you at your best.

• 1:05:00Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:05:00Rob Bell?

  So, let's start there.

• 1:05:02Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:02Rob Bell?

  That might look different.

• 1:05:03Lewis Howes?

  You obviously have, you know, resources now and flexibility and freedom with what you've created for the last 20 years in your life. So you have those options, but...

• 1:05:11Rob Bell?

  Yeah, but I don't, I don't spend any more, like surfing, I don't spend any more time surfing than most people would surf, spend going to the gym or something.

• 1:05:19Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:05:20Rob Bell?

  And like my wife went back to graduate school, so our eight-year-old and then our 16-year-old and 18-year-old, I like step into some Mr. Mommy. But even then, I get more done than I used to, simply because...

• 1:05:33Lewis Howes?

  You're taking care of yourself.

• 1:05:34Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah. Which, and that's been a long, slow evolving, just learning how to be at, be at the best so that we can do what you do.

• 1:05:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. If there was a, if you were the author of a new book called The Bible of Today, right? And all the writers of these poems and letters and lectures and stories said, "Rob, we want there to be a new Bible and we want you to write it."

• 1:06:06Lewis Howes?

  And we want you to do your best. Obviously, this is your interpretation, but we feel like you have the keys to the kingdom to be able to write something that would help a lot of people in this world, no matter what religion, what they believe, what they don't believe. But this would be the new Bible. What do you think you would cover?

• 1:06:27Rob Bell?

  What would I cover?

• 1:06:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, what would you write about? What would you cover? How long would it be to get the message across? And what would you want really people to feel at the end of reading this?

• 1:06:37Rob Bell?

  That is a fantastic story.

• 1:06:44Rob Bell?

  I would go to the poorest places in the world and interview people.

• 1:06:51Rob Bell?

  What do you want? What do you need? What burns in your heart? I'd start there. I'd start with those who the system isn't working and feel left out and at the edges. I would always, you always go, you go looking for the divine, you start there. And then I would interview scientists and artists, and then I would go interview farmers about the earth. I would interview people. What do you see? What has been your experience? Tell me about your pain. Tell me what helps. Tell me about your wounds. Tell me about your healing.

• 1:07:35Rob Bell?

  Yeah, I would not write it as an abstract. I can't believe I even bought into your premise. I just realized I actually took your question seriously. Any guy who takes your question seriously should be questioned. But I would begin not with, with abstract intellectual ideas. I would begin with sweat and blood and wealth and poverty and strength and weakness. I'd begin there.

• 1:08:02Lewis Howes?

  I'd read that book.

• 1:08:02Rob Bell?

  Yeah, yeah. That's where I'd start. And, and I would edit it together in such a way that you might, in reading those stories, think, something's going on here. Something's going on here that I could be a part of. That's how I do it.

• 1:08:19Lewis Howes?

  When are you gonna start writing it?

• 1:08:23Rob Bell?

  That, seriously, no one has ever asked a question like that. That's a good one.

• 1:08:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:08:28Rob Bell?

  That's a bizarre one, I can't believe I.

• 1:08:30Lewis Howes?

  I think it'd be a powerful book.

• 1:08:33Rob Bell?

  Actually, probably all my books are at some level, me trying to.

• 1:08:37Lewis Howes?

  Answer that question.

• 1:08:38Rob Bell?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's this interesting line in, I point to this, but there's this interesting line where Jesus says you'll do greater things than these. And it always strikes me, I wonder, like if, if, uh, if there was some, if there was a Jesus who came back, I wonder if he'd be like, "Why are you guys still talking about me?" Like, my whole point was that you'd go out and do it. I actually think some of the Bible writers would be like, "Why do you keep repeating me?" Why do you, I'm, "Thanks, fair play, appreciate it." But the goal was that you would carry the story forward.

• 1:09:11Lewis Howes?

  And help the people in your time, in your day, yeah.

• 1:09:14Rob Bell?

  Right, right. The goal would be that you would learn what you could from what we went through, but then new metaphors, new images, like for example, artificial intelligence.

• 1:09:24Rob Bell?

  This already, you have people saying, "Hey, hey, wait a second. Not all progress is progress. This could come with all sorts of things attached to it that we might be really wise to just watch carefully." Well, this is new technology, this is new fire. So how will it be used? What will it do? What will it say about what it means to be human? These are all the very questions that we're asking now, which the, I mean, they're talking about iron, they're talking about stepping out of a cycle of despair. All, it's all the same sorts of questions.

• 1:09:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I don't think I asked you this question on the last time. So I'm gonna ask it to you here, and this is called the three truths.

• 1:10:01Rob Bell?

  Oh, wow, okay.

• 1:10:01Lewis Howes?

  I think I asked you this one before.

• 1:10:02Rob Bell?

  No.

• 1:10:02Lewis Howes?

  Because I started asking, I think, after you came on.

• 1:10:06Lewis Howes?

  You've written how many books now?

• 1:10:08Rob Bell?

  This is like the 10th or 11th.

• 1:10:09Lewis Howes?

  10th or 11th, who's counting? Three New York Times bestsellers, tours, speaking everywhere, on tour with Oprah, all that's good stuff. Documentaries. This is, let's say, in 100 years is the last day for you, right? You live for another 100 years, plus whatever, as long as you want to live. And you achieve everything that you set out to do. All your dreams, you create it, you do whatever you want, you make it come true. But for whatever reason, all your work is erased, and it's not available for people to learn, or read, or watch anymore. But you have a piece of paper and a pen, and you get to write down three truths. The three things you know to be true, the lessons that you would pass on to the people after you're gone. For the whole world, this is all they see are these three lines.

• 1:10:54Lewis Howes?

  Or lessons. What would your three truths be?

• 1:10:57Rob Bell?

  The first truth would be use the fine china. Because when Kristen and I were married, I learned that you register for two different kinds of plates.

• 1:11:03Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh.

• 1:11:04Rob Bell?

  There's the everyday plates. And then, and I was just watching this as a dude who couldn't care less about any of this. And then you register for this fine china. And the fine china is basically these boxes of really nice plates that you haul around from apartment to apartment that you use once or twice a year. And when you do use them, like, don't break them, take good care of them. And when I went through a bad burnout a number of years ago, like crashed, hit the wall, didn't know if I could work again. I sort of started to get back on my feet. I started serving my boys breakfast on the fine china. Because we only have today. So, we're gonna use the fine china because we're feasting. Because we have no guarantee of tomorrow. So the first thing I'd say is, uh, use the fine china.

• 1:11:46Rob Bell?

  Second thing I would say is, um, forgive everybody for everything. And that doesn't mean condone what they did. Doesn't mean brush it under the rug. It just means you have to take part in a larger flow of forgiveness. Because you hold on to any of that bitterness for anything anybody has done to you and it will eat you alive. You will drink rat poison and then wonder why the rat isn't dying. So forgive, forgive, forgive. And then, uh, the third thing I would write down is everything is spiritual. It's all connected. It has infinite depth.

• 1:12:29Rob Bell?

  And don't ever think that all of this isn't related to every other part of it. Everything is spiritual. And that's where the wonder and the awe and the mojo and the juice and the joy comes from. Those are three things.

• 1:12:42Lewis Howes?

  Those are powerful.

• 1:12:47Lewis Howes?

  I have a brand new book called Make Money Easy. And if you're looking to create more financial freedom in your life, you want abundance in your life and you want to stop making money hard in your life, but you want to make it easier, you want to make it flow, you want to feel abundant, then make sure to go to makemoneyleasebook.com right now and get yourself a copy. I really think this is going to help you transform your relationship with money this moment moving forward. We have some big guests and content coming up. Make sure you're following and stay tuned to the next episode on the School of Greatness.

• 1:13:28Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:14:12Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.