Hermes Historia: Homer, have you heard of him? Pretty chill dude

On today's Hermes Historia Michaela tells Liv the Homeric origins of her favourite messed up ancient family... For future episodes of Hermes Historia (aside from a few one offs we might release now and then!) subscribe to the podcast's Patreon. The Oracle Edition features AD-FREE episodes, Hermes Historia, and so much more! patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing. Sources: Brethlein, J. 2010. “From ‘Imperishable Glory' to History: The Iliad and the Trojan War.” In Epic and History, edited by D. Konstans and K. A. Raaflaub, 122-144. Malden: Wiley-Blackwell. A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology by William Smith. Homer the Preclassic by Gregory Nagy Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.

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• 2:09Liv Albert?

  Hello listeners. I still don't fully know how I open these episodes. I'm Liv. This is Michaela.

• 2:19Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 2:22Liv Albert?

  Doesn't she sound thrilled to be here?

• 2:25Speaker 04

  It's Sunday.

• 2:28Liv Albert?

  And we are here with another episode of Hermes Historia, which we missed an entire month of them because I moved across the country and Michaela, you know, is like off getting an education.

• 2:43Liv Albert?

  It's benefiting the show. That's what matters. Your Greek is

• 2:46Speaker 04

  This is true.

• 2:47Liv Albert?

  gonna be so good.

• 2:48Speaker 04

  One of these days.

• 2:49Liv Albert?

  And but now we are back. We're trying to get back to a regular schedule. So naturally we started like the week before Christmas because that's the right time to get back into a schedule, especially when you have ADHD. It's perfect timing if if I'm being honest and not at all facetious. But here we are. I'm I'm excited with this episode. She and I have been talking for the last hour and a half straight. So we're already a little loopy and I am so ready to hear what you have for us this week, Michaela.

• 3:15Speaker 04

  You know, this week, I, I mean, I had, I had

• 3:19Liv Albert?

  Is it Krampus?

• 3:21Speaker 04

  No.

• 3:21Liv Albert?

  Sorry.

• 3:22Speaker 04

  I love Krampus.

• 3:23Liv Albert?

  It wouldn't. I know, but it

• 3:24Speaker 04

  I do.

• 3:25Liv Albert?

  It couldn't. It wouldn't be Krampus.

• 3:27Speaker 04

  He can come by my place anytime he wants, is what I'm saying. But this, I had two prepared for November, but then we were busy. So this one now is

• 3:37Liv Albert?

  Right. Great.

• 3:38Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, this is gonna be one of them. We're just not gonna do the other one. I'm just gonna save that for January.

• 3:43Liv Albert?

  Perfect. That's what I meant. Yeah, that's what we want. We just push it on to the future.

• 3:47Speaker 04

  It'll come. This one is a Christmas gift to me and I guess everyone else, but it's mostly for me.

• 3:54Liv Albert?

  And what I am, I've got, I've got my guess. But I, I don't know how to drill down my guess because we couldn't do.

• 4:02Speaker 04

  You could write it down on a piece of paper and.

• 4:05Liv Albert?

  No, no.

• 4:05Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 4:06Liv Albert?

  I just mean, my guess is so wide ranging that it couldn't be just one episode. So.

• 4:12Speaker 04

  No, but it could be beginnings.

• 4:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I'm ready.

• 4:16Speaker 04

  This one also, you, you are, it's, it's less gonna be me telling you so much about, it's gonna be a conversation, you and me, and it's gonna end with the present. And it's so much fun.

• 4:25Liv Albert?

  Okay.

• 4:27Speaker 04

  We're gonna talk about Homer.

• 4:29Liv Albert?

  Oh, not Alcibiades. Okay.

• 4:31Speaker 04

  No, no, no, no, no, not him.

• 4:32Liv Albert?

  Well, that's what I thought based on your reaction, but fine.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  Well, we'll find out.

• 4:35Liv Albert?

  Stopped your love for him?

• 4:37Speaker 04

  I never, God, I love that book.

• 4:39Liv Albert?

  I know. That's why I thought it was gonna be him because he was a Christmas gift for you.

• 4:43Speaker 04

  He's such an idiot.

• 4:46Speaker 04

  Well, spoilers. So we're gonna talk about Homer, Homeric tradition and its reception within antiquity.

• 4:53Liv Albert?

  Oh, got it. Yes.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  And it, there is a reason to this and it will come at the end and that is the present. The present is at the end. You must stick around.

• 5:02Liv Albert?

  Is it present in both forms of the word?

• 5:05Speaker 04

  No.

• 5:06Liv Albert?

  Okay.

• 5:08Speaker 04

  I don't think so.

• 5:09Liv Albert?

  I mean, present like now and also present like a gift.

• 5:13Speaker 04

  It's Sunday. I don't understand.

• 5:17Liv Albert?

  I mean, the English is weird. Go ahead. Go ahead.

• 5:20Speaker 04

  Eh, Homer is a pretty big deal and the Homeric tradition is pretty big deal.

• 5:26Liv Albert?

  That's the first line.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  Homer is a pretty big deal.

• 5:29Liv Albert?

  He's a big deal.

• 5:30Speaker 04

  I don't know if you've heard.

• 5:31Liv Albert?

  Started somewhere.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  And maybe you've heard of him. He's a pretty big deal. The thing with Homer that I like to.

• 5:41Liv Albert?

  Homer is a pretty big deal.

• 5:43Speaker 04

  Homer, have you heard of him? Pretty chill dude.

• 5:47Speaker 04

  So Homer was, um, the thing that I think about a lot is he was often like, almost like a history book to the ancient Greeks. It's, this was where they came from.

• 5:58Liv Albert?

  Yeah. It was also like all they had as a history. So like, imagine, yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 04

  It was a way to understand their place within, you know, like the wider Mediterranean world. And also where a lot of their cultural morals came from. So.

• 6:18Speaker 04

  How do you even, how do you even translate a retai? I have conversations with this with my Greek professor and I'm like, can I just put a retai? And she was like, then how do I know if you know the word? I'm like, but it's untranslatable. She's like, just put excellence and be done with it. And I'm like, okay, I don't want to. Uh, because it's so much more than that. It's so, it's, it's a, it's a cultural concept that is not easily translatable. Anyway.

• 6:41Liv Albert?

  That sounds like, I mean, cause I don't know enough Greek, but it sounds like if I was to, to try to fully explain Xenia.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 6:50Liv Albert?

  Like it's just in English, you'll never fully understand it. Like it, we, we cannot fully comprehend the, the weight of Xenia. Yeah.

• 6:58Speaker 04

  And there's stuff like that in the English language too, that is hard to translate into other languages.

• 7:03Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 7:03Speaker 04

  And it's true.

• 7:06Speaker 04

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and the language is so tied to culture. So this is why it's nice to read things in the original text, but I also understand that is a huge barrier for some.

• 7:14Liv Albert?

  Yeah, some of us aren't, you know, don't just get A pluses on all of our Greek exams.

• 7:17Speaker 04

  I don't know how I do it. I go in without studying.

• 7:22Liv Albert?

  Every time she tells me this, every time she says, Liv, oh my gosh, I just did my Greek exam. I didn't get to study at all. I finished it in about a third of the time.

• 7:34Speaker 04

  That happened once.

• 7:41Speaker 04

  To be fair, I'm already, I'm a year ahead in Latin, so I understand the grammar.

• 7:45Liv Albert?

  Oh, to be fair, you're a year ahead in Latin.

• 7:48Speaker 04

  So for Homer, it was an artificial story that was constructed through a long oral tradition. Um, until it was put down towards. So this is, it's, it's nebulous. You've talked about this. It's.

• 8:01Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And, and I mean, Homer as a concept is nebulous.

• 8:05Speaker 04

  Was he one guy? Was he many guys? Was he people? What, who was he? He was a dude. He was.

• 8:12Liv Albert?

  He was this fine fellow with a nice face.

• 8:15Speaker 04

  He was just a head.

• 8:16Liv Albert?

  I honestly don't, I don't, I don't believe that Homer was one real guy, but and I'm holding, I'm holding a little statue up for Michaela now. You can't see. Um, but if I don't believe that he was, but I still have like a real attachment to the like bust that we know of as Homer today. He just, he looks like a guy I would like to listen to, I would like to listen to him tell a story with his like plucking at his liar.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  So the um, homeless tales were and also an important part of education to the people of Greece as it was something, you know, your children, you would um, children, the upper class men would read.

• 9:00Liv Albert?

  You mean the girls weren't allowed?

• 9:02Speaker 04

  No, women aren't allowed to be smart. Are you kidding?

• 9:05Liv Albert?

  Well, no, you phrase that poorly, Michaela. The issue is not that they're not allowed to be smart. It's that women have no brains within their little heads and they need to just save all of their energy for the loom.

• 9:17Speaker 04

  Women are glorified children that need to be cared and led.

• 9:21Liv Albert?

  Stands at the house where you won't get into any trouble.

• 9:24Speaker 04

  At least you're avoiding the sun and we all know the sun is evil. Except for that, it gives you vitamin D. Well, so it makes you happy, but it will kill you.

• 9:31Liv Albert?

  But it, yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  Anyway.

• 9:35Liv Albert?

  He's coming from one of us who's better at sunscreen. Fine. Just always showing off.

• 9:40Speaker 04

  Dude.

• 9:42Speaker 04

  I, it's such.

• 9:43Liv Albert?

  Better at sunscreen, really good at ancient Greek, a year ahead in Latin. We get it, Michaela.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  Never had a sunburn in my life.

• 9:50Liv Albert?

  Oh, well.

• 9:51Speaker 04

  Even when I wasn't.

• 9:52Liv Albert?

  You're not a white lady.

• 9:54Speaker 04

  So.

• 9:56Liv Albert?

  You win this one, not any other one.

• 10:02Liv Albert?

  White people win everything except the war against the sun.

• 10:07Speaker 04

  Oh my God, I love it. Uh, so another fun thing is people often found ways to tie their own family to figures. From uh, Homer and myth in general, you know, I think we, we were talking about it in the divination one where like divine uh, divinatory sort of families would be like, we come from, you know, Tyresius, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Um, it's happened.

• 10:32Liv Albert?

  Well, my, my name is Alexandra, so naturally, um, Paris Alexandros is my ancestor. Like, I don't know how else to tell you.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  Alex.

• 10:40Liv Albert?

  No, no, no, not Big Al. No, not Big Al.

• 10:45Liv Albert?

  Alexandros. And not that, not that he was a particularly cool guy to be connected to, but he was more interesting than Big Al.

• 10:56Speaker 04

  Yeah. Was he?

• 10:58Liv Albert?

  I mean, I think so because he was fictional. Cause I think Homeric storytelling is always more interesting than history, but like, whatever.

• 11:06Speaker 04

  That's so fair. I just find it a continually fascinating man because I don't think he had a plan.

• 11:11Liv Albert?

  What did you, sorry, this is a divergence for the listeners as if this whole episode isn't, but um, to, to you all, we're, we're recording this right after our episode Battle of the Bastards that would have come out probably. I don't know, last week or before, when this does, um, so you can get a better sense of why this is the way it is, but um, I will just, uh, pull back to, you recently sent an email to one of your profs, uh, that included me. We won't get into the details on this, but I need you to remind me what you called Alexander the Great.

• 11:44Speaker 04

  Alex the okay.

• 11:45Liv Albert?

  Yes, thank you. The way you, she wrote this episode and it was, you know, to her prof who she clearly had a great relationship with, and it was just one of the most joyful things to be like CC'd on. Because she just had this like incredibly intellectual and like highbrow things to say about like the historical records and all of this, but then amongst that, she just said Alex the okay, as if it was fully interchangeable.

• 12:10Liv Albert?

  And I, I needed the listeners to know that.

• 12:13Speaker 04

  That's life, man.

• 12:14Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 12:15Speaker 04

  He was pretty okay. That's all I'm saying. I'm not going to call him great.

• 12:18Liv Albert?

  You were, you were correct.

• 12:20Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 12:20Liv Albert?

  I just appreciate the casual nature with which you will call him Alex the okay and expect that everyone understands what you're talking about.

• 12:29Speaker 04

  Uh, so I don't know how much you've actually talked about the oral tradition as a practice.

• 12:34Liv Albert?

  Uh, I've had very intelligent guests come and do that for me.

• 12:38Speaker 04

  So it's a, it's a difficult thing to trace, uh, not least because, you know, we don't have any actual.

• 12:46Liv Albert?

  Because it's the oral tradition for the year.

• 12:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, there's.

• 12:50Liv Albert?

  It's like saying I, the mysti- the mystery cults are just so mysterious. Yeah, that was the point.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  I think the biggest thing when you are trying to, um, oh god, I'm putting on chapstick like a man. Can't do that.

• 13:03Liv Albert?

  No, you gotta do the, like, the, just full, yeah, that's, that's how they do it.

• 13:07Speaker 04

  Anyways, um, to understand, like, oral tradition, eh, you kind of have to be steeped in it. You have to go experience it, because I think for, in the western world and western traditions were very removed, um, from orality and how stories are told and passed down, that it's, and were much more a kind of steeped in written word, so we kind of,

• 13:37Liv Albert?

  It's really difficult to conceptualize the difference.

• 13:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I'm really lucky, because I was kind of in both worlds growing up, where I, you know, I was a huge book nerd growing up, but also I'd be at ceremony and I'd hear stories from elders and get to sit at, you know, sit at their feet and listen to these stories. So I kind of got the best of both worlds and,

• 13:55Liv Albert?

  Yeah. You also got defense against the sun in the process, like, it's something a big win.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Look, sunscreen is important.

• 14:04Liv Albert?

  As somebody who's just third, fourth generation colonizer with literally nothing more that I can look back on, except that my family apparently landed in quote-unquote "Canada" in the seventeen hundreds. You know, we just don't have a lot, so I, I respect that.

• 14:19Speaker 04

  SPF fifty, just slather it on you. I should, I should be wearing some, I have a window right there.

• 14:25Liv Albert?

  Look really Mediterranean when I get a bit of a color, you know? I can hide the level of, like, colonial white lady that I am.

• 14:33Speaker 04

  But skin cancer can kill you.

• 14:35Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:38Speaker 04

  So, we can't actually, we don't actually know at all what these stories were, because we weren't there. We didn't get to hear the, the Iowadore, um, sing these songs and actually hear which things are concrete and which things are not, because the thing with, like, um,

• 15:00Speaker 04

  These, the stories is we, we read the Iliad now and we say, oh, this thing is this and that is fact. You know, like, um.

• 15:09Liv Albert?

  Like this is in the Iliad and this is not like our concrete things we can say and conceptualize now.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  But how do we know this was actually something that was part of the story versus um, something that could be moved around and be more um, interchangeable with other details. So.

• 15:32Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 04

  You know, there.

• 15:33Liv Albert?

  Let alone what ended up in the final result that was recorded, you know, for, for historical purposes, like, because yeah, like they could have been, th- these things could have been shifting and changing per audience, but then also on top of all of that, we have like the, okay, well, when the Athenians wrote it down, like what the fuck were they doing with it? And what, that what ended up in our version today that we can't separate?

• 15:56Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 15:56Liv Albert?

  But they might've been like, well, Athens is more important, like we're gonna change this or whatever.

• 16:01Speaker 04

  And what is the motive? What is?

• 16:02Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 04

  Why is this detail important versus why is it not? Um, so like, these are the things with um,

• 16:11Speaker 04

  about orality and oral tradition. So like, I know they've, they've done studies on people and like, ooh, closer to the Mediterranean, I don't remember where right now, but they've gone and listened to oral storytellers who can hold these really intense, long stories like that are as long as the Iliad and the Odyssey in their brain and they're, they try to understand why. And it's because of things that we see in the text, um, and such as like, uh, like certain set phrases, you know, these things.

• 16:45Liv Albert?

  Similes, the similes always get me as a good example for that, like the volume of similes.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  Uh, epithets.

• 16:52Liv Albert?

  Just as this guy did all of these things a bazillion years ago.

• 16:57Speaker 04

  Then just so Achilles fought a river. Host fato, anax sagamemnon andron. And then he goes on, it's like thus says, um, Agamemnon, lord of, yeah, whatever. Okay. But it's the set phrases that they can.

• 17:14Liv Albert?

  I'm just so jealous that you know so much ancient Greek off the top of your head.

• 17:18Speaker 04

  So there's set phrases that like they, these poets don't have to think about. Like they um, there are things that you can just say and it fills space. So that your brain has time to think up the story as you're going along. Epithets are in that, um, set, set phrases, like I said, um, little tidbits that are just, you, you know, you'll read the Iliad and you'll be like, why was that important? And it wasn't, it was important for the poet so that they had time to actually think of what they were gonna say next and throw it in.

• 17:49Liv Albert?

  Do you think that those are equivalent to like what I just did?

• 17:55Speaker 04

  Like, uh.

• 17:56Liv Albert?

  To like.

• 17:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:58Liv Albert?

  To, li- like, oh, I, I love that idea.

• 18:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, it, it's just, it holds space so that your brain can have time.

• 18:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 18:07Speaker 04

  Um, and so likely also, you know, there are set points that happen to, set plot points that have to happen in each story. Um, so certain things like maybe Patroclus always has to die. Because, or maybe not Patroclus always has to die, but something has to happen to Patroclus so that Achilles goes crazy. Because this is a story about Manin.

• 18:30Liv Albert?

  The rage of Achilles.

• 18:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, you know, we need Achilles to go barkers, we need Achilles to be pulled out of the war. We need something to pull him back in. This person has to die. Um, but how it happens, who does it, sort of those little details, those are a bit more flexible. And you can change versus which audience you have. Uh, so you know, if you're gonna be in a, you know, maybe you're in Ionia, along the Ionia coast. Uh, uh, wow, in the, you know.

• 19:00Liv Albert?

  Asia Minor and Anatolia, modern Turkey.

• 19:03Speaker 04

  Thank you so much.

• 19:06Speaker 04

  Maybe you're there and those people, you're closer to where Troy may have actually been, or the Trojans may have actually been. You don't wanna be going in there and you don't wanna be. You know, you wanna be making a story that's more accessible for them that they would like more.

• 19:20Liv Albert?

  Yeah, they're not on the, you're not gonna like amp up all the Akaeans because you're gonna be more interested in like amping up the Troad or whatever.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  That's where you are. These people, they're gonna be all like, yay, woo, that's us. Versus you go on into the Peloponnese. And suddenly you're just like, whoa, yeah, go Akaeans. Hell yeah. Look at them going. They're so powerful, those, those evil others. You know, like, there are things, it's nebulous.

• 19:46Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Speaker 04

  And things change. And that's why we have so many, uh, different things.

• 19:50Liv Albert?

  Contextual. I love that. Yeah, like it is entirely based on the context of, of when something is being performed and, but the, the performer too is such an interesting thing to think about. Yeah, but and, but like, I, I, I'm thinking more of the, the performer on their internal side. Like, yes, their performance, they would want, you know, to do all these things for the audience, but also just on a personal level of the performer, like they are. It reminds me, I did the, the Q and A I did earlier this week at the time of recording this. You know, someone asked me about translations and like, just how much can a translation alter the work itself?

• 20:33Liv Albert?

  And it's like, completely and also not at all. And also a little bit here or there, maybe or whatever, but like, every single thing about a, a translation, because it, it is the same as a person reading the text. Originally, like everything about a, a human being taking in a, a story, a work of art is completely, completely contextualized. It is based in where, but everything personal about them, about their preferences or the way their brain works, like all of these different things. That would apply to like, yeah, the, the storytelling process in the first place, let alone. As it all came down to us later.

• 21:14Speaker 04

  And there is, at least in my opinion, I think there is no way for people to remove bias when they are writing things or interacting with things or retelling things.

• 21:25Liv Albert?

  It's why I think AI is like, people want, well terrifying bullshit, but fucking, absolutely, we should not be giving it any time. But, but also like, even if it wasn't all of those things, it's why I, I think that AI like will literally never reach any kind of, of real artistic anything, like it will never mirror, mirror anything about the ancient world, say specifically, because every single thing is so inherently tied to it being interpreted by a human fucking being.

• 22:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:01Liv Albert?

  Anyway, down with the robots.

• 22:04Speaker 04

  So it's also important to know who is your performer. Like I think like, there was probably famous poets or the Iodors, these are the, these are the Iodoses.

• 22:14Liv Albert?

  The bards, yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's the bard, he's the one who's singing.

• 22:17Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 22:17Speaker 04

  Um, and telling the story. And I bet there was famous ones where they were like, oh, you know, have you seen this guy's? You know, have you seen Megakles's performance of this thing versus have you seen, I can't think of any other names.

• 22:29Liv Albert?

  Homer, let's pretend he was just one of them.

• 22:32Speaker 04

  Have we seen?

• 22:33Liv Albert?

  Omeros.

• 22:34Speaker 04

  He always does it like this. And that guy always has this point of view. And I really like, oh, I really like the way this guy presents um, these aspects of the way he talks about nature and his things. Like, oh, I love the nature imagery. Every, every performer would have their own bias and it wouldn't, it would also seep into their performance, no matter where they were. They could be tailoring it to their individual audience, but they could also still be having their personal touch in it. Which is important. Uh, and then the other thing of it all is the meter. Uh, this was done in a specific meter. It's called dactylic hexameter. With six units of uh long, short, short, the last unit would be two syllables.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  Uh and the the meter is actually incredibly helpful for the poets because it gives them a structure to Yeah. Um to tell the story and it's very rhythmic and you can hear it and you really if you can if you I I can't do it in the Greek. I'm very bad at, oh, look at you.

• 23:31Liv Albert?

  Can I try some?

• 23:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, go for it.

• 23:33Liv Albert?

  Cause I I picked up, so I I recently found a couple of lobes, uh which just to the listeners have the Greek on one side and the English on the other, which is so fun. But um I figured out that the person who had had it before, they'd scanned a little bit, not like just little bits of it here and there. So I could leave them. I know, but they did it. No, it's great because they did it for me. I'm never gonna do it. And they did the first line, so um. Andra moy n p musa, politropon, hos malapola. I probably didn't do that great with the actual.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  Hos malapola.

• 24:13Liv Albert?

  Hos malapola.

• 24:15Speaker 04

  Hos? Hos. Hos. And wait for. Yeah, yeah.

• 24:21Liv Albert?

  Andra moy eh n p musa, so. Oh, God, not even try. But uh politropon is one of my favorite words.

• 24:33Speaker 04

  It's a comp- that's always the the.

• 24:35Liv Albert?

  Politropon.

• 24:37Speaker 04

  Well, uh polyphuspos, how about that?

• 24:40Liv Albert?

  Okay. Politropon.

• 24:43Speaker 04

  Polyphuspos is a word my Greek professor said to me, you don't ever have to remember this, and now I can't forget it.

• 24:50Liv Albert?

  Many.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  It it's a it's a it's an automatopia for one.

• 24:55Liv Albert?

  Oh, ancient automatopia.

• 24:59Speaker 04

  It's for it's a describes the sea, so like uh uh polyphus delassa. Uh and it basically like loud thundering, loud roaring.

• 25:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  It's that like it's, you know, when during a sea storm that whoosh. It's kind of bit. That's what that is. And um and I think it only appears in Homer.

• 25:18Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  And so there's no reason to remember it. And yes, I can never forget it. Polyphuspos. I love it.

• 25:30Liv Albert?

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• 26:13Liv Albert?

  right now and I have my go-to woven leather bag. I seriously use it everywhere. That's why it's with me here. It's beautiful and it's practical and it's from Quince. And I actually have a parcel to pick up when I when I get back home, which has some goodies in there. I got this pair of corduroy high-rise pants. I'm really excited to try those out as soon as I get home. And everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. So give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com.

• 26:58Liv Albert?

  Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Let's Talk About Myths, baby. It's the best way to support the show.

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• 28:39Liv Albert?

  Well, that's like polytropone, I think, is one of those ones that it's, I don't think it probably appears in too many places because it's so specific to Odysseus.

• 28:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's the complicated, it's the...

• 28:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah, but it well, it came up in a recent, the Q and A I did because it's like, over the years, it's been, I think the most, the clearest, like literal translation of it would be, there was two different, I forget who did which, but like one did, um, polytropone as many ways.

• 29:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 29:09Liv Albert?

  And also many turns. And so like, they're both like literal translations, but they don't really mean anything in English. And so that's why it's, it's to me more interesting that then, yeah, Emily Wilson did the complicated. Which is such like...

• 29:26Speaker 04

  It's one of those things. It is like we were saying with the erete and whatnot.

• 29:31Liv Albert?

  It's a word that it does, just does not have you, it doesn't have an English equivalent. So you will always have to have your, your, like the, the translator's, you know, inherent humanity, their whatever bias you want to associate, but it's just like the nature of being a person. Um, will always have to come in because a word like that just does, yeah, does not have an English equivalent. People got, the men got so mad when she said complicated because they like, put some kind of negative association with it, but like, where complicated does not have to have a negative association, like it literally, okay, it's like, oh, you don't like complicated, but a man of many turns would be better? Like which one means more in English? Spoilers, it's complicated. Because polytropone is a complicated goddamn word.

• 30:13Speaker 04

  Why can't I find it in my dictionary? Poth, where am I? Poit, poit, poit, poit, poit, poit.

• 30:20Liv Albert?

  Polly.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  I know. Palm, okay, but palm, pop. Where is Lambda? I'll do this later.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  That was what I was thinking about home, what I really do like about our two Homeric texts is the first word tells you everything you need to know about the story. Right? It's in, in the Odyssey, Andron, man. This is what the story is about.

• 30:41Liv Albert?

  Man.

• 30:42Speaker 04

  And Iliad. Uh, mainen, rage. This is what it is, that rage, it is that wrath, it is that uncontrollable sort of. Uh, you can't, it's, it's that emotion, it's, it's. Uh, I love rage for it, that's my favorite one for it, but anyways.

• 30:58Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 30:59Speaker 04

  Back to more Homer.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  Oh, where was I? So we know that these stories existed all over the Greek mainland, it existed all over the Aegean, it existed all over the Near East and beyond. People.

• 31:14Liv Albert?

  The Greeks were not the first doing that.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  No, no, no. People moving, this is, I love orality and I love following myths and stories and finding the little tidbits that connect. Because I love that idea of going to a new place and someone tells you a story.

• 31:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 04

  And the, and the what, what about it connect, um, like hits your heart? Because stories are so human. And it's not in the, it's not in the details, but it's in the sort of the wash that's underneath of the what is that that touches you and makes you go, oh? Oh, that reminds me of this, or that feels like home, like.

• 31:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:53Speaker 04

  And people were doing this, it's, it's where it's like, it gets complicated. Now we have, you know, um,

• 32:01Speaker 04

  really complicated things about like original, uh, intellectual, uh, theft or, um.

• 32:08Liv Albert?

  Yeah, copyright broadly.

• 32:09Speaker 04

  Copyright broadly, or, uh, you know, a lot of people talk about like appropriation, they're like, oh, they took this from this thing. And I'm like, or, and then they'll say that about like antiquity too, where I've seen people say things like, oh, you know, like the Epic of Gilgamesh doesn't get enough, uh, credit and these. People were just like appropriating from that. And I'm like, you gotta stop there.

• 32:26Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 04

  Like.

• 32:27Liv Albert?

  There's a really big difference between appropriation and inspiration.

• 32:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, and and what we're seeing is people moving. And connecting with each other. And that is really wonderful. And in a way that they are connecting with each other through story. They're going, oh, let me tell you this epic about my thing. And then they hear that. And there's a part of it that that really rings true. And so when they go and they tell a new story to their family member or their community, they bring a little piece of that in. And that's that fills my heart with warmth because it's so human. And I think me coming from such an oral culture too, where it's that was such a big part of my grow, my growing up and why I fell in love with Greek myths is, you know, my sister found a book of Greek myths.

• 33:10Speaker 04

  And I remember sitting on her bedroom floor and she was standing on her bed and she was telling me these stories about um about, you know, I I it the story I remember the most was her telling me the story of Perseus. And that's only because Perseus's mom's name is Danae.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  That's my sister's name. And I just remember her telling me the story in the way that our elders told us stories. And it that like, that is what got me so excited because I was like, oh, my God, I understand this.

• 33:40Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  And it it feels familiar and like home. And there's bits of it that are they ring true to me. Um, and

• 33:46Liv Albert?

  Well, to me, that's the most human thing about it. It's why I love the ancient Greek world. Like, I didn't grow up with that that storytelling aspect. But like, to me, all of those things and and the way that people do you still use it today, like, that's what makes it so human. And again, why I use it also as an example to like fucking hate on AI because we'll just literally never have that humanity that is what makes this stuff good. It's what makes it interesting. It's that it's being interpreted by humans.

• 34:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. And I think that's the really lovely thing about Homer. And when you really gotta kind of sink your teeth into is understanding and and kind of letting the canon of it drop away.

• 34:28Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 04

  The texts that we have, okay, this is what was written down, but where did this come from? And then you also have to, you know, I was saying earlier, how this was sort of like a history for them. It was how they understood their place within the wider Mediterranean. Why is that? Okay, so now we're seeing that human connection that these people had, especially your the earlier periods. I'm not so much classical later, like, you know, it's society changes, but like.

• 34:50Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Having that um

• 34:55Speaker 04

  that that connection and that heart in it and then you see why it was important to people and why it stuck around.

• 35:03Liv Albert?

  It that it just reminds me of when we did the Bronze Age episode because that came up or episodes because that came up so much of like the way that yeah, like the the Homeric tradition was their history and the way they used it to connect with their past. You know, even when that past, you know, we know archaeologically speaking like did not have those connections to the story of the Iliad, but that doesn't change anything about the way that the individual people of the ancient world used it as a way to connect with their history.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  And I find Greece especially interesting in that aspect because you have the early Iron Age, right? Where there is in Greece generally, um, there is such loss that I think is not seen elsewhere in the Mediterranean, um, you know.

• 35:48Liv Albert?

  And well, they have like a full language shift.

• 35:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, like, um, well, like, cause like Linear B is is still Greek. Um, but it's with syllabic scripts and then they get the Phoenician writing and that changes into the Greek that we know. But it's.

• 36:01Liv Albert?

  Just let's just gonna say, I just wanna, because we, I think that these days I can't hear anything without making that connection. So I just want to remind all of the listeners that Lebanon, the ancient people of Lebanon, the uh, gave us as a Western world, they gave us the alphabet. They gave like literally, there would not be English, there would not be our letters today. If it weren't for um, the people of ancient Lebanon and uh, the idea of uh, calling it Greater Israel, just because uh, the West wants to is fucking hot nonsense. Oh, my God, Israel has bombed Lebanon so many times in our lifetime, let alone in the last hundred years. And I just think

• 36:44Liv Albert?

  I just I need us all to remember that when we say Phoenician. Yeah, we mean Lebanon.

• 36:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:50Liv Albert?

  The tier, tier, the, the home of the ancient Phoenicians and the alphabet and Cadmus and everybody in between Lebanon. Uh, Israel bombed tier and it needs you all to know that because we need to be just, yep.

• 37:01Speaker 04

  Okay, sorry.

• 37:05Liv Albert?

  The world's great. West is awesome.

• 37:09Speaker 04

  You know, like the collapse hit the entire Mediterranean.

• 37:11Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 04

  But I think I find it especially interesting to think of Homer and the collapse and the Bronze Age and sort of that period. Because it hit, Greece was hit very hard and they.

• 37:22Liv Albert?

  Gaza was not, which is on the, all of the maps of the Bronze Age collapse, just because I've already gone there. Just everyone, they want to Google a map of the Bronze Age collapse. You want to know one of the most ancient words on there? It's Gaza.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  So like it's.

• 37:39Speaker 04

  When you have such a collapse that happens, you get almost sort of like culturally disconnected and to the point where they couldn't understand, you know. How did? The people we came from builds these things because we can't do that.

• 37:53Liv Albert?

  Yeah, so there's they have this big disconnect in Greece.

• 37:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, so then you have these stories that talk about, oh, look at these things that our people did, you know, like. We, we battled this huge war with people across the waters and we won. And it's like, it becomes a thing where you go, oh, this is our history. It, it, it connects you to your land and your space in a way. And I, you know, there's always the big question, like, did a Trojan War happen? And I think.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  I, yes, like there was war.

• 38:26Liv Albert?

  A war, yeah, nothing to that degree.

• 38:29Speaker 04

  No, yeah, there's always more. There was no ten year war.

• 38:33Liv Albert?

  No, exactly. The gods were not involved, spoilers, sorry to break it to you.

• 38:39Speaker 04

  It, but it, it just.

• 38:43Speaker 04

  It connects you to yourself and it creates culture and it creates community. And another way that this happens is through family groups. Um, so like I think of like the Spartan kings who were the um, the Herakleides, right? Like their um, their two family lines, they had the dual kings. Each family line was from one of the um, one of two of Heracles's sons. And that, that was their claim to their standing within their community is, oh yeah, we can have this power. Our family can have this power because we're the sons of Heracles. Like, of course, we should have this.

• 39:22Speaker 04

  And so that becomes really important is people find ways to tie themselves and their families to characters from the past. And if we even go all the way to like fucking Rome, man, like who is the eventual emperor? The eventual.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  He was a king. I have all these qualms about Rome and all I'm gonna say is they fucking hated kings and yet they had them. And Augustus was just a king in a different name and I don't care what anyone says. That's what anyways.

• 39:50Liv Albert?

  It is no, but please, this is not the time for me to get into this rant, but I've been, I haven't had a chance to talk to you about it, but I saw Gladiator two and I need you to know that they call him the Prince of Rome.

• 40:00Speaker 04

  I would like you to know I haven't seen it yet.

• 40:02Liv Albert?

  Great, well, they call somebody the Prince of Rome as a good thing, as a like this long-lived, like the true Prince of Rome kind of thing.

• 40:11Speaker 04

  Well, and I think, cause it's, it's Caracalla and Geta, Geta, yeah.

• 40:14Liv Albert?

  Yeah, but they are not the princes of Rome. I won't spoil the rest, but like, yeah.

• 40:17Speaker 04

  But that's, that's so much later and like, that's what third century, I think it is.

• 40:21Liv Albert?

  So it's like, they're so removed. Also Caracalla and Geta, who are the children of Assyrian and a Tunisian, or rather Libyan, sorry. Syrian and a Libyan are um, the whitest boys from white, white, white Britain. They're the palest of the lily white. Anyway, um, also they were great whites in the Colosseum. Don't worry about it, it's fine.

• 40:49Liv Albert?

  Great whites, not just sharks, Michaela. So that was where, that was where my two passions came together. Because if, if there's anything I love, yes, exactly. If there's anything I love as much as antiquity, it's sharks. And when I tell you I saw great whites in there and I said, you know, it would be silly to have, I mean, it would be absurd to have any sharks in the Colosseum, but the idea of picking the one, the one species of sharks that to this day, in the year of our bullshit 2024, we have never had a great white kept in captivity, but oh no, but, but please, they put them in the fucking Colosseum.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  I always like, I'm so curious, we haven't figured out why. It just never works.

• 41:30Liv Albert?

  They're too big and awesome.

• 41:33Speaker 04

  I mean, we've kept whales in antiqu-, uh, sorry, we've kept whales in captivity.

• 41:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah, but they're mammals. They're easier to predict.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  I know. Anyways, science is fascinating. It makes me very happy and also I'll continually um ingest things from scientists, but I will not do the research myself.

• 41:49Liv Albert?

  The thing you will learn from scientists, and I can tell you right now as a non-scientist, they didn't have great whites in the Colosseum. Sorry.

• 41:55Speaker 04

  I know. But I want there to be. Look, I don't need Gladiator two to be accurate. I need it to be campy. I need it to be ridiculous.

• 42:03Liv Albert?

  It was very enjoyable. I, I would, I could talk to you about it more, but this, I'll never get over the great whites in the Colosseum. That's all.

• 42:09Speaker 04

  We can have fun.

• 42:10Liv Albert?

  Also the fact that they, everything was just so fucking white. Anyway.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, that's this media though, like.

• 42:15Liv Albert?

  No, but it was that they also, yeah, like again, they just, nobody can figure out that to put color on ancient Rome. That's all.

• 42:21Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:22Liv Albert?

  Not even the people. Yeah. I just mean the complete lack of polychromy.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  The polychromy is so pretty. Oh, so you went to the thing at the mat. Yeah. Didn't you?

• 42:31Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  I hate you. I hate you. I'm so jealous. Um, we were talking about family ties. Yeah. You know, like.

• 42:42Speaker 04

  People do this.

• 42:43Liv Albert?

  Sorry, I brought us so off track.

• 42:45Speaker 04

  Where have I?

• 42:46Liv Albert?

  Oh, my God. This is all my fault.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Oh, like, OK, so here we go.

• 42:53Speaker 04

  Like, on Kios himself, the island, there was a family group called the Homero Di, who claimed descent from Homer, you know?

• 43:00Liv Albert?

  Oh.

• 43:02Speaker 04

  It it's it's a way that aristocratic families use to explain their position within the world. And I'm absolutely certain this happens all around the world today. So too, it's just like, I'm from this.

• 43:17Liv Albert?

  Well, think about the way Americans hold on to the idea of being like, my family was on the Mayflower, or something stupid, right?

• 43:23Speaker 04

  I I like the Iliad the, oh, my, huh, my, my great, great grandmother was a was a Cherokee princess. And I'm like, we didn't have those, but OK.

• 43:35Liv Albert?

  Rome didn't have kings either, but.

• 43:37Speaker 04

  They did.

• 43:40Speaker 04

  The amount of rage I feel about that, they're like, no, it's not, it's not. And I'm like, what do you call the one? And then they call him, what's it? Uh, this is me just being, I haven't been in the Roman mindset for a while, delightfully. It's still fun, though. But one of the names, it means like the first among men. I'm like, what is that but a king, you motherfucker?

• 44:02Liv Albert?

  Well, Alexandros means like defender of men, but it's not a king, so you know.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  That's just a name.

• 44:08Liv Albert?

  Well, yeah, but.

• 44:09Speaker 04

  It's just the name. Philip is loves horses.

• 44:14Liv Albert?

  All right. Naturally.

• 44:16Speaker 04

  And then my favorite city in antiquity, Philopopolis.

• 44:20Liv Albert?

  Philopopolis.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  Horse lover horses, horse love, horse more, no, less.

• 44:26Liv Albert?

  Oh, the city of Philip.

• 44:27Speaker 04

  Oh, got it. It's the city of horse-loving Philip, though, if you want to go deep. Bucephalus had its own city, Bucephopolis, I think, or something like that.

• 44:35Liv Albert?

  I need everyone to know that I I have been playing The Sims. And if you get a horse, one of the auto-generated names, one of the only ones that is not like some silly horse name is Bucephalus. And I was like, that is a joke for a very select few people, and I support you, Sims.

• 44:49Speaker 04

  I love this.

• 44:49Liv Albert?

  Thank you. I had to go tell Dina, and I was like, you didn't get this joke, but the way I was there was pretty funny.

• 44:55Speaker 04

  So I'll now give, I'll give my gift.

• 45:00Liv Albert?

  Great.

• 45:00Speaker 04

  This is the only reason.

• 45:01Liv Albert?

  I think this episode was your gift to me because utterly unhinged.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  It's all Homer. I mean, it's just thinking about orality and oral tradition and what Homer means to the people of Greece and ending with this nice little, you know, it's how people made ties and explained their positions in society. And all this is because I found one bit of information that came from one old, old, old classical like dictionary of names that I cannot find its source for. So I cannot speak to this is act, this actual credibility, but I would like to believe in my heart that it's true. So there's my caveat. This comes from an old source.

• 45:36Liv Albert?

  It's so true.

• 45:37Speaker 04

  But I love it so much.

• 45:39Liv Albert?

  I'm ready.

• 45:39Speaker 04

  That I don't care.

• 45:42Liv Albert?

  I'm ready. I support you.

• 45:45Speaker 04

  So as Liv knows and you all are about to find out now, I have an immense love for the Alcmaeonidae. They are my favorite family.

• 45:54Liv Albert?

  Can you explain that more? You're using deep, deep words. Thank you.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  A group of, of, of aristocrats in Attica and the Peloponnese. Um, they had members such as.

• 46:03Liv Albert?

  The children of.

• 46:05Speaker 04

  Alcmeus. Alcmeus, something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

• 46:09Liv Albert?

  Right.

• 46:09Speaker 04

  Uh, and, and it's a, uh, you know, Pericles was an Alcmaeonidae.

• 46:14Liv Albert?

  Oh, right. Oh, got it. I was expecting it to only be Alcibiades.

• 46:17Speaker 04

  No, no, Alcibiades is an Alcmaeonidae.

• 46:19Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Oh, Pericles too. And Cleisthenes.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Oh yeah. Pericles was, oh, we'll get there. I'll tell you after. I will tell you right now. I will tell you.

• 46:29Speaker 04

  My, my best boy, best disaster boy, number one disaster boy, Alcibiades. He's an Alcmaeonidae. And the Alcmaeonidae claim they come from the family of the Naladai, um, who stemmed from Nellius.

• 46:44Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 46:45Speaker 04

  Who was the father of Nestor.

• 46:48Liv Albert?

  Oh, wow. They're going all the way. I was going to say like, that's coming. I can tell it's Nellius and I was going to forget who, of course, but of course he's the father of Nestor.

• 46:55Speaker 04

  So they claim descent from Nestor.

• 46:58Liv Albert?

  That's a fucking stretch, guys. That's a stretch.

• 47:02Speaker 04

  And I love the implications of that.

• 47:05Liv Albert?

  I just think that, um, who, who do I claim, uh, to be descendant from? Uh, Aspasia, let's go with her.

• 47:15Speaker 04

  You wouldn't be Aspasia? Who do I want?

• 47:17Liv Albert?

  I would like, yeah, I would like to be claimed to be descendant of, uh, Aspasia. Not Pericles as the dad, though, some, somebody else.

• 47:27Liv Albert?

  I don't love his brainchild. It's not gone, worked out well.

• 47:31Speaker 04

  It's really, you know, it's complicated. I'm still trying to, who would I be?

• 47:35Liv Albert?

  I'm from. I think that maybe you would be a descendant from. Yeah, or at least from the Alcymaonite.

• 47:42Speaker 04

  Chaos, chaos. It might, yeah, just maybe. I love that man. But anyway, they say they come from Nestor.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Nest, the long line of Nestor ends with Alcibiades.

• 48:00Liv Albert?

  Poor Nestor.

• 48:01Speaker 04

  This will be so much funnier once I finish all the other Alcymaonite episodes.

• 48:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Well, the point is, guys, that it's a fucking hot mess. So the idea of just having a hot mess family descended from Nestor is kind of rude because he was like pretty objectively okay.

• 48:16Speaker 04

  I will say, I will say, I don't think the whole family is a hot mess. I think Alcibiades is the end result. Uh, he's the hot mess. This is what happens when you have.

• 48:26Liv Albert?

  Of the masses.

• 48:27Speaker 04

  Oh, hell yeah. This is what happens when you have too much, uh, you know? You have it too easy in life. No, it's too easy in life. You get Alcibiades.

• 48:39Liv Albert?

  But those are, those two things are tied.

• 48:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 48:41Liv Albert?

  Having power and having it too easy in life.

• 48:44Speaker 04

  Because the Alcymaonite, I will say, huge family in Athenian history, um, and they're really interesting. And they do a lot of things and they're just utterly fascinating and they always.

• 48:58Speaker 04

  I mean, we'll get more into it later.

• 49:00Liv Albert?

  I'm excited.

• 49:00Speaker 04

  In another episode, but they always are blamed for when things go wrong in Athens. Which I find fascinating.

• 49:07Liv Albert?

  I know. It's so, I mean, me too, but only, I, I know so little. I only know that part of that is that Alcibiades didn't actually go around and chip off all the dicks of all the Herms. And that's too bad, because I like that claim.

• 49:23Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, I think that is the end of a very long history. They, like, even before all of that, like, they were constantly.

• 49:31Liv Albert?

  The idea that your family's very long history ends with you being accused of chipping all the dicks off the Herms in Athens is like, pretty great.

• 49:39Speaker 04

  Defecting twice, attempting an oligarchic coup, you know?

• 49:42Liv Albert?

  He was a wild guy.

• 49:44Speaker 04

  I love him.

• 49:44Liv Albert?

  That Sicily expedition went so well for him. It went so well for the Athenians.

• 49:48Speaker 04

  Get there. He didn't even get there. Okay.

• 49:51Liv Albert?

  So famously successful expedition.

• 49:55Speaker 04

  I love it so much. It makes me so happy.

• 49:58Liv Albert?

  Well, I'm, I don't know, honestly, like, I can say these things with confidence, but only because I know these like little bits and pieces. So I'm, I'm quite excited to actually learn the details. Cause I really, I mean, I really leave it to other people to teach me the history stuff so that I can like live in the mythology and I, so I'm ready, I'm ready.

• 50:16Speaker 04

  Yeah. We'll, we'll go chronologically. From the beginning. And when we get to the end.

• 50:22Liv Albert?

  Are we gonna begin with Nellius?

• 50:24Speaker 04

  No, you can do Nellius.

• 50:26Liv Albert?

  All right.

• 50:28Speaker 04

  I can't even, he had a son.

• 50:30Liv Albert?

  He doesn't come up as anything except that, like, historically, they say, I think he was in another big war, but it's really just that it's Nestor, son of Nellius, like, throughout the Iliad.

• 50:38Speaker 04

  He had a son. That was his claim to fame.

• 50:41Liv Albert?

  It's, Nellius's claim to his fame was that he was Nestor's father, I think, for the most part.

• 50:46Speaker 04

  Good for him. Good for him. Ah, ta-da. There you go.

• 50:51Liv Albert?

  Ah.

• 50:52Speaker 04

  That ends with, with the Alcmaeon and I.

• 50:54Liv Albert?

  Oh, I'm excited. I am excited.

• 50:58Liv Albert?

  Uh, well, listeners, slowly but surely, these episodes will become, I won't say less unhinged because I think that this is the fun way, but I will be better prepared to keep myself on track, uh, as we keep going.

• 51:13Speaker 04

  We'll figure out a good time to record.

• 51:15Liv Albert?

  Yeah, we're still learning this whole new time zone thing and I'm still learning to get into a space where I, my brain wants to sound smart because it just turns out that sometimes it's really fun to live, uh, in a realm where you don't have to be intelligent at all.

• 51:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I feel that.

• 51:33Liv Albert?

  Yeah, you know, I just, I feel like I, I just need a little bit of that for a little while.

• 51:39Speaker 04

  Honestly.

• 51:42Liv Albert?

  Uh, but in the meantime, oh my God, the oral tradition is one of my favorite things and I'm so excited for you to tell me all about this fucking family and not least because I'm excited for you to get to feature your guy because he's so funny.

• 51:57Speaker 04

  He is my favorite and one day I'll get my back piece of him done and it will be beautiful and, and people will go, why? And I'll go, why not? What do you mean? Why?

• 52:08Liv Albert?

  Not.

• 52:09Speaker 04

  I, I have a flaming chicken on my arm, man. Did you think I'd do anything like, come on?

• 52:15Liv Albert?

  I have a classic heart with a banner that just says Aragorn. Sometimes we just need to have fun.

• 52:22Speaker 04

  Sometimes you just gotta get a silly tattoo because it makes you so happy.

• 52:26Liv Albert?

  Sometimes you just gotta put extra love of Aragorn. I realized recently that it's like just so directly next to my like enormous side piece of the Hilt of Narsil too. And I was like, wow, like you're really, you've done hard for this man. No regrets.

• 52:40Speaker 04

  Just commit, just commit.

• 52:41Liv Albert?

  Aragorn's worth it, but.

• 52:43Speaker 04

  I, I wasn't, I didn't love him when I was younger. I'll say that.

• 52:46Liv Albert?

  Oh, no, neither. Cause I was young and thought.

• 52:48Speaker 04

  Legolas.

• 52:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And then, yeah, exactly.

• 52:50Speaker 04

  And my mom turned to me and she looked and she go, you will grow up and you will understand why.

• 52:54Liv Albert?

  Your mom was.

• 52:55Speaker 04

  I love Aragorn. She was right. I remember watching it as an adult and I was like, oh shit, Nancy was right again.

• 53:03Speaker 04

  Why is this woman consistently right? Oh.

• 53:07Liv Albert?

  It's almost like when you're young, older people tell you that you'll understand more when you're older. And that's like the most fucking infuriating thing to hear when you're young and then you keep getting old and you're like, oh, it was completely true.

• 53:16Speaker 04

  My mother was right. She did the same thing with, with Buffy. I said, angel. And she went, no, Michaela. Spike, you'll understand. Now I'm older and I'm like, oh, I understand.

• 53:28Liv Albert?

  I don't know. I didn't get full spike. I don't know.

• 53:30Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm not there. I get it. I get it. I get it. I get it. Anyways.

• 53:37Liv Albert?

  Thank you all to the listeners for listening to this. This is, uh, we are truly, I mean, December is a wild enough time without us both. Michaela's just been in finals. I just moved across the country and I'm trying to be intelligent again. Uh, and you know, sometimes we just gotta rant and ramble about our favorite topics and that's what oral, the oral tradition is. Cause it's the fucking best. I honestly could hear it and or talk about it forever. Yeah. It's endless. So I'm going to finish this off with again, me trying to read the first line of the Odyssey, cause it feels cool.

• 54:13Liv Albert?

  Andra moy mepemusa politropon hos malapola. And I know I do not know the, uh, meter very well. But I still want to try.

• 54:27Speaker 04

  I'll give you the Iliad. I'll give you Iliad.

• 54:29Liv Albert?

  Do it. Do it.

• 54:30Speaker 04

  Menen aedetha peleadio achileos ulumenen hemoria chios algeathae que polaste estemus sujas idi. Haidi proyapsen heron autoste aloria teuque canusen. Oi noisi te passi dioste atelato bule.

• 54:49Liv Albert?

  Wowza. You went a little further. Well now, oh, I'm not gonna try. I just looked at a couple and I'm like, oh. I know that now, right? Your brain, I do need a little more time to sound those out. Cause I've not been learning like Michaela.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  Fair, I've, I've been going through the Iliad so much. So, you know, thus it adds with.

• 55:07Liv Albert?

  Well, and mine is reading with, with just being, me being physically able to pronounce them, not because I like actually know the words. So we're good.

• 55:14Speaker 04

  I just went to the end. Thus, thus the plan of Zeus was completed.

• 55:19Liv Albert?

  Dun, dun, dun. Thank you all for listening. Let's talk about Miss Baby was written and produced not, was not written and produced by me. That's just what I say. Michaela wrote this shit. Uh, and I don't need to read the rest of the credits. Thank you all so fucking much for listening. Um, select music in this episode was by Luke Chaos. Uh, I don't know. Tell your friends. I am Liv and I love this shit and

• 55:48Speaker 04

  I am Michaela and I'm here too and don't know how this became my thing.

• 55:54Liv Albert?

  We have to go with a better one, but until then it's hilarious.

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• 57:22Speaker 05

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• 57:39Speaker 06

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• 57:53Speaker 05

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• 58:06Speaker 06

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