Verdine White (Earth, Wind & Fire) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan welcomes legendary Verdine White for a conversation about the rise of his group Earth, Wind & Fire and the vision that turned the group into one of the greatest bands in music history. Verdine reflects on leaving music conservatory at 18 to join his brother, Maurice White, and the promise that changed his life: "This is going to make you a legend." He shares unforgettable stories about Clive Davis betting on the band, the mentorship of Ramsey Lewis, recording That's the Way of the World, collaborating with illusionist Doug Henning, the Soul Train snub that nearly cost them their crossover, the game-changing performance at California Jam 1974, and what Miles Davis really thought of Earth, Wind & Fire. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  He said, "Man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is gonna make you a legend." And all I heard was like, "Magic, magic, magic."

• 0:09Billy Corgan?

  There was something about Earth, Wind & Fire, it would seem so from another place. I didn't understand it. I loved it, but I was like, "Wow, this is so fresh."

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Pound for pound, the music was right there.

• 0:24Billy Corgan?

  There had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seemed to just erase the lines.

• 0:30Speaker 00

  You know, our deal was what we were doing.

• 0:32Billy Corgan?

  I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the band, it's real.

• 0:38Speaker 00

  Man, man, we musicians. That's what we do.

• 0:43Billy Corgan?

  You're Dean White. Thank you so much. You honor me by being here.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  Thanks so much.

• 0:47Billy Corgan?

  So nice to see you again.

• 0:48Speaker 00

  I was very excited about coming.

• 0:50Billy Corgan?

  Thank you. Tell me if this date strikes you correctly. June of 1970, that's when you came out here

• 0:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 0:57Billy Corgan?

  at the behest of your brother Maurice.

• 0:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:00Billy Corgan?

  To join what became Earth, Wind & Fire. But was it still called Salt Pepper Trio?

• 1:05Speaker 00

  It was Salt, the Salty Peppers.

• 1:07Billy Corgan?

  Salty Peppers.

• 1:08Speaker 00

  But it was transitioning into Earth, Wind & Fire. It was. And he had just left

• 1:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15Speaker 00

  Ramsey.

• 1:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16Speaker 00

  In April 1970.

• 1:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  Had been with Ramsey four and a half, five years.

• 1:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22Speaker 00

  And then I'm, you know, I'm in college, my first year at the Conservatory of Downtown of Wabash, as you might know.

• 1:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33Speaker 00

  And

• 1:33Billy Corgan?

  Fellow Chicagoans.

• 1:34Speaker 00

  Chicago guys. Chicago. And then he asked me, "Do I want to come to California?"

• 1:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. What did he sell you on?

• 1:46Speaker 00

  He didn't have to. He said, "You want to come to California and be in my band?"

• 1:53Speaker 00

  I said, yeah, sure. You know, and it was, it was a, uh, uh, a life-changing moment in a certain kind of way.

• 2:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  And it was, it was, um,

• 2:07Speaker 00

  it was different, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was different. And, um, and I, and then I got ready to come.

• 2:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14Speaker 00

  You know, they say, you know, I got, I got ready to come to get ready and, and, uh,

• 2:21Speaker 00

  so that was the beginning.

• 2:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  Probably.

• 2:23Billy Corgan?

  But did your brother lay out kind of a musical vision? Did he say, I want to do this or is, was there a languaging to it?

• 2:28Speaker 00

  No, because I kind of knew what his vision was because I would go to the rehearsals with the other Earth, Wind & Fire that he was developing, uh, Satterfield and Wade Flemings and Don Whitehead.

• 2:42Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 2:42Speaker 00

  That group he was developing, yeah.

• 2:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:45Billy Corgan?

  Um, it's interesting because I, I know the hits like everybody, but doing my deep dive to get ready for the interview and listening to the early stuff.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 2:56Billy Corgan?

  It strikes me that from the first album, those key elements that made Earth, Wind & Fire a global act, they're already in there. They may or may not clear yet, but it's already in there. The horns and the rhythms and the feeling.

• 3:09Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 3:10Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel that from the get beginning that was something different going on?

• 3:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, because we wanted to be different. Uh, but it didn't really become different to me till later.

• 3:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:23Speaker 00

  Actually later.

• 3:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  You know?

• 3:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but you could, you can hear those elements. There's like whatever, I don't know. It's the sound is so identifiable.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 3:31Billy Corgan?

  When you guys are at your absolute peak, I mean, there's only one band in the world that sounds like that.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 3:36Billy Corgan?

  Which is interesting because a lot of times soul and R and B, there's a lot of sameness in it.

• 3:41Speaker 00

  Although we weren't at a peak then, we were just kind of getting it going.

• 3:45Billy Corgan?

  No, what I'm saying is it's interesting that the elements are there.

• 3:48Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 3:49Billy Corgan?

  And the success didn't come immediately.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  No, no.

• 3:51Billy Corgan?

  It's not like you put out a song and then boom, you go to the top of the charts.

• 3:54Speaker 00

  It was, it was a slow build, but it was a great build though.

• 3:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I was lucky to, uh, meet, uh, Ramsey Lewis one time.

• 4:00Speaker 00

  You met Ramsey?

• 4:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 4:03Billy Corgan?

  What a gentleman.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, was he, wasn't he great?

• 4:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I was just in awe.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was, he was, he was great.

• 4:09Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I was just getting chills just talking about him.

• 4:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, Ramsey was.

• 4:12Billy Corgan?

  What a.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  What a great guy, man.

• 4:14Billy Corgan?

  Wow, so sweet. Very interested. Somebody said to me, I was at a show and they said, would you like to meet Ramsey Lewis? And I said, well, of course.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:25Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I don't want to bother him. They said, no, no, come read him. And, and I came in, he said, oh, oh, hi. And he recognized me, said, sit down. And we talked for forty minutes.

• 4:37Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 4:38Billy Corgan?

  And one thing that I really remember in the conversation is I didn't know at that point, the connection between him and your family.

• 4:43Speaker 00

  Hmm, yes.

• 4:44Billy Corgan?

  And he told me about the, the origination years of Earth, Wind & Fire.

• 4:48Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:49Billy Corgan?

  And how he saw something in your brother and he really encouraged that.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 4:53Billy Corgan?

  It was so humbling to hear it from him. You know, as a fan of your music, it was to hear Ramsey Lewis say, how he recognized there was something.

• 5:01Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 5:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it was really humbling to me.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 5:04Billy Corgan?

  To hear that.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 5:06Billy Corgan?

  That he had such a, a personal investment in your guys' future.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  That's right, he sure did. And you know what was interesting?

• 5:15Speaker 00

  Later on, Maurice ended up giving him a hit record with Sun Goddess.

• 5:21Billy Corgan?

  Well, you say pay it forward, right?

• 5:23Speaker 00

  Exactly, man. And then Ramsey ended up going on tour with us.

• 5:27Billy Corgan?

  That's so cool.

• 5:27Speaker 00

  Uh, on our tour, so.

• 5:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  And, and Reese and Rams was always close, always close, you know.

• 5:34Billy Corgan?

  I could see that.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  They were, they were always close.

• 5:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. One other thing about your brother that I, I knew, but I forgot until I did my research, was his connection to Booker T.

• 5:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, Booker, they went to school together.

• 5:47Billy Corgan?

  This is just another crazy connection.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  That's right, they went, they went to school together.

• 5:51Billy Corgan?

  Cause you think of the music that your brother got involved with, obviously you're there with him. But then Booker T goes off in his own direction.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 5:59Billy Corgan?

  It's just incredible that this.

• 6:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 6:00Billy Corgan?

  Incredible, rich musical history.

• 6:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, they, um, they grew up together in Memphis.

• 6:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. And then Booker T came to LA. Reese came to LA.

• 6:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, and then at that time, you know, we're talking about coming to LA. That was like the first big explosion in, in the world, in, in, in the United States of, of the hippie movement.

• 6:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  Uh, the, uh.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  The Black Panther Movement, the Women's Live Movement, all at the same time.

• 6:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  And then you had Woodstock, you had, you know, and you had hippies. See, when I came out here, I saw nothing but hippies.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  The same things I saw on television, you know, hippies up close.

• 6:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I mean, there were some hippies in Chicago, but not like out.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  No, not like that. I think the hippies in Chicago were trying to be hippies on the north side. Right? That was the hippest part.

• 7:00Billy Corgan?

  They could afford to be hippies.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it was pretty rich up there.

• 7:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  But the real hippies are out here.

• 7:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Billy Corgan?

  If you don't mind, and if it's not too personal, because and maybe he tells the story in his book, but this, why your brother was in Memphis and you were in Chicago, the family circumstance.

• 7:20Speaker 00

  Same mothers.

• 7:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:21Speaker 00

  Different fathers.

• 7:24Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:24Speaker 00

  I'm Verdine Junior from my dad Verdine Senior.

• 7:28Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  And, um, and what happened was that, uh, my mother had Reese when, uh, he was, uh, when she was young.

• 7:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:40Speaker 00

  Like 16, 17, you know, which was.

• 7:43Billy Corgan?

  It's tough. And that was a different world too, back then.

• 7:45Speaker 00

  At, at that time. And, um,

• 7:49Speaker 00

  but she would always go visit him, you know, uh, she came up to Chicago because a lot of African Americans came

• 7:58Speaker 00

  to Chicago for work.

• 8:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  You know, the Great Migration, you know what I mean?

• 8:02Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's why we had such an incredible history with the Blues because of all the great artists that came up.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 8:08Billy Corgan?

  The South and.

• 8:09Speaker 00

  That's right. Brought up to the nightclubs and things like that. And, and, and the workers, there was more jobs.

• 8:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. What, what kind of work did your mom do?

• 8:18Speaker 00

  Well,

• 8:20Speaker 00

  she, I think was a domestic down there, from what I understand.

• 8:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  But then she became an elevator operator where she met my, my father, you know, getting on the elevator. And the rest of the system.

• 8:32Billy Corgan?

  Going up.

• 8:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're going up, right, right. And, and nine kids later, right?

• 8:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Wow.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  Right. Wow. Wow.

• 8:38Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know you came from that. Wow.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. Yeah.

• 8:41Billy Corgan?

  That's wild.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  And, um, so it was, um, so that was kind of like the, the difference.

• 8:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 00

  Why that happened like to, you know?

• 8:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. No, I get it. Um, so back to you coming out here.

• 9:01Billy Corgan?

  I saw that you guys did your first album at Sunset Sound. Now, were you, you were on Capitol Records? Is that, does that?

• 9:06Speaker 00

  Well, we were on, yeah, Capitol Records.

• 9:13Speaker 00

  Stacks for one of the singles.

• 9:17Speaker 00

  Capitol Records, but the records that we did over at Sunset Sound was under, under the Warner Brothers.

• 9:23Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay. Okay.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Under the Warner Brothers.

• 9:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Regime at the time, you know? And, uh, and I went to Sunset Sound maybe a few years ago. It looked so small. It looks so, it used to be so big to me, you know?

• 9:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  It, it, it looked so small going up that studio ramp.

• 9:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Up there.

• 9:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:46Speaker 00

  The cars in the parking lot.

• 9:47Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  You know?

• 9:49Billy Corgan?

  Still the same.

• 9:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it, it, nothing's changed.

• 9:51Billy Corgan?

  Do you remember what room you guys were in?

• 9:53Speaker 00

  We were in the big room.

• 9:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  That big room?

• 9:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Oh, and, um,

• 10:00Speaker 00

  it, it was, we cut some good records out of that.

• 10:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  We cut some good records. That's where Clive Davis came to see us.

• 10:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 10:06Speaker 00

  Because we were in a transition, Warner's to Columbia.

• 10:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you do two albums, maybe with the one label situation.

• 10:12Speaker 00

  With Warner, with Warner.

• 10:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  And then what happened was that, uh, Clive, um, came and saw us.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  And, um,

• 10:22Billy Corgan?

  Saw something.

• 10:23Speaker 00

  And that was it.

• 10:24Billy Corgan?

  What do you think Clive saw at that, at that moment?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Well, uh,

• 10:30Speaker 00

  he was in the midst of losing

• 10:33Speaker 00

  Sly Stone.

• 10:34Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  And I think that he wanted

• 10:38Speaker 00

  another urban group.

• 10:39Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 10:39Speaker 00

  You know, uh, another black group, you know? And, and, and, and Clive being sort of a revolutionary, innovative, doing something that nobody else ever did, brought us on the scene.

• 10:52Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  And, uh, and Columbia Records did a great job with us. Uh, put a lot of money behind us, brought us to Europe, gave us the exposure that most African Americans never really got.

• 11:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, he, he always stood behind what he believed in with music.

• 11:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:09Billy Corgan?

  For sure. If he believed, he went all in.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  All in, all in.

• 11:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there is definitely a shift in, in production and feeling when you guys make that shift.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Right, well, we had time to make the records.

• 11:20Billy Corgan?

  Was that what it was?

• 11:21Speaker 00

  We didn't have, we didn't have to rush.

• 11:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? It was, all we knew was the music.

• 11:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Now, there's I never felt it, but I mean, I get the overt version of it and why people would, because it's what I would call lazy take. But early on, you guys, we can be compared to Sly and the Family Stone.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:39Billy Corgan?

  And that type of stuff. And of course, there were bands that were successful around the time, like Undisputed Truth, you know, there was this.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  That's right. And then don't forget now Motown was big.

• 11:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:47Speaker 00

  So, you know.

• 11:48Billy Corgan?

  Well, Motown, yeah, Motown, people, of course, they focus on Motown in the sixties, but Motown in the seventies was still rocking.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  They were still rocking in the eighties too. They, you know, um.

• 11:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  Uh, Berry had it down.

• 11:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:59Speaker 00

  I mean, but then, but most people thought that most African Americans would go to Motown.

• 12:07Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 12:08Speaker 00

  Whereas that wasn't really our deal, you know, our deal was what we were doing, you know?

• 12:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  And, um, um, and of course, later on, Berry and Maurice became great friends, uh, really respectful towards each other.

• 12:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:22Speaker 00

  You know, uh, and at, uh, at the time, she, uh, Berry wouldn't have gotten Earth and Fire. He wouldn't have gotten what that was, but it was too different for them.

• 12:32Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can you kind of quantify that a little bit for, for people who maybe don't know the music past the hits or something like? What in your, because you know, from the inside out, we have a different perception, you know? As you're standing there in nineteen seventy-three or something, you know? What was it that you thought the band had that was different and or voiced differently?

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Than Motown?

• 12:52Billy Corgan?

  Or just anything?

• 12:53Speaker 00

  It was different. Well, it was different anyway because of the, um,

• 12:58Speaker 00

  the work. You know, the work that we did, the music, the musicality.

• 13:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 00

  It was coming off.

• 13:05Billy Corgan?

  Jazz influences and the samba influences.

• 13:07Speaker 00

  Right. It was coming a little bit off of jazz and it wasn't overtly commercial.

• 13:12Billy Corgan?

  That's true.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  It was not overtly commercial. And, uh, and then we hit it the right time when AM and FM radio.

• 13:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:21Speaker 00

  Came.

• 13:21Billy Corgan?

  And started playing the longer songs.

• 13:23Speaker 00

  That you write the longer, the longer albums.

• 13:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  Uh, uh, the longer tracks, man. Yeah.

• 13:29Billy Corgan?

  You guys did have a rep for, because I remember those times, even though I was young, my father was a huge fan. So I, I heard all the music in the house, but you guys had a rep for being an album band, which was, which was a compliment.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:42Billy Corgan?

  Like you weren't just a singles band, like you made great albums.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 13:45Billy Corgan?

  Your albums were worth listening to.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  Right. It was, it was, uh.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  I mean like musical.

• 13:52Billy Corgan?

  Fair.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? I mean, really musical. And it was, it was, uh, uh, really great for me because those are my first records.

• 14:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  That I had ever done.

• 14:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, wow.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  Ever done.

• 14:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Ever, ever done.

• 14:05Billy Corgan?

  See, you're, you're bringing back memories for me because, you know, as I've said, my dad was a huge fan and he played your music in the house. And I remember the first time I consciously, like, I put on one of your records myself. And I just remember being so shocked because my father only really listened to soul. But there was something about Earth, Wind & Fire, it would seem so from another place. I, I didn't understand it. I loved it, but I was like, wow, this is so fresh.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:37Billy Corgan?

  The feeling, the production, the, the, I don't know, the rhythms and the harmonies, it was just like, wow.

• 14:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 14:43Billy Corgan?

  Psychedelic.

• 14:45Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. So when we got to the Last Days and Times, that was the first record for Clive.

• 14:51Speaker 00

  That's really when we started to really get it together.

• 14:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Oh, you can hear it.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:58Billy Corgan?

  Were you doing a lot of roadwork at that point?

• 15:00Speaker 00

  We were starting to.

• 15:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  Uh, uh, we were an opening act.

• 15:03Billy Corgan?

  For?

• 15:04Speaker 00

  Everybody. Anybody, anybody.

• 15:06Billy Corgan?

  I love, I love this stuff. So tell me.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Everybody.

• 15:08Billy Corgan?

  I saw where you guys were opening for, uh, like John Sebastian.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  That's right. We're open for, for John. That's right. We're open for John.

• 15:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Uh, um, and, um, uh, Curtis Mayfield.

• 15:21Billy Corgan?

  Not too bad.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Not too bad for, for the beginning. Um.

• 15:25Billy Corgan?

  Did you know Curtis as a person?

• 15:28Billy Corgan?

  I mean, did you get to know Curtis personally?

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Late, later.

• 15:30Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 15:31Speaker 00

  Maurice knew him.

• 15:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  But don't forget, I'm saying I'm 18 years old. So nobody, nobody didn't want to know me. Nobody got me. Nobody, you know, oh, that's, that's his brother. So anyway, how's the family?

• 15:42Billy Corgan?

  I love that you're still the little brother in the band.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  Exactly. You know, and, um, um, so, um.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  So it was a lot going on.

• 15:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  All at the same time.

• 15:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. How was the reception of, let's call it the general public, you know what I mean?

• 15:59Speaker 00

  It actually was cool.

• 16:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 16:02Speaker 00

  It was cool. We were, we were, we were cool.

• 16:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:05Speaker 00

  Then I was cool. I started getting cool because I was in a band. I mean, I was actually a real musician.

• 16:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, man.

• 16:13Billy Corgan?

  Were there, uh, were there guys that you looked up to on the bass? I mean, your, your style is very distinctive. So, but I mean, was there somebody that you thought, wow, like that guy or?

• 16:25Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. The, the, the person that taught me, the late, great Louis Satterfield, who played on all of those Chess records.

• 16:32Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 16:33Speaker 00

  With Maurice.

• 16:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Rescue Me and.

• 16:35Billy Corgan?

  I saw your brother play drums on that.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. You never saw Maurice play live, right?

• 16:41Billy Corgan?

  No, no.

• 16:41Speaker 00

  He was great. Great.

• 16:44Billy Corgan?

  Well, you would know. You're in there.

• 16:45Speaker 00

  I mean, he was great. And he had, he had both things together. He, he had the jazz thing together.

• 16:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 00

  And he had the funk thing together. And he had the R and B thing together all at once. Whereas, you know, you get, you get guys like the late, great Tony Williams, they were primarily jazz cats.

• 17:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  They didn't do a beat.

• 17:04Billy Corgan?

  Right. And you know, with those records, if you can't lay it down, that, that record ain't working.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  No, no, it's not coming out.

• 17:10Billy Corgan?

  This is not Pro Tools time.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  No, no, that's right. It's not coming. No, no, no, no, no.

• 17:13Billy Corgan?

  This is, it's in there.

• 17:14Speaker 00

  It's, it's, it's staying, it's staying right in the pocket.

• 17:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  And, um, uh,

• 17:21Speaker 00

  and so Maurice had, he had, he had both things together.

• 17:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Do you, do you feel looking back, uh, I always perceived as a musician, your brother was kind of like a musical savant. Do you, do you, do you see him in that light or? You know what I mean?

• 17:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  You know, he, you know, he knew, he knew his stuff. And, uh,

• 17:45Speaker 00

  and I know when he called me to come out to California, so I said, I said, what about all my schooling? That's what I was, I said, you have my schooling? He said, I'll teach you everything you need to know out here. Now get here, you know? And it was, and it was a great way to, to starting to being an adult and things like that.

• 18:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:00Billy Corgan?

  Uh, I, I did see this and I, I wanted to bring it up. I didn't know this about your history. Sweet, Sweetback's Badass Song.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 18:07Billy Corgan?

  Which is considered the first Blasphematization film.

• 18:10Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 18:10Billy Corgan?

  As they're commonly known.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  And it was, uh, a huge movie too.

• 18:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  It was huge. It was like.

• 18:18Speaker 00

  For that era, a blockbuster.

• 18:20Billy Corgan?

  Well, he he shot the movie on his own, kind of.

• 18:22Speaker 00

  On his own?

• 18:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, like Nineteen Days and.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, Nineteen Days, uh.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  On Stax Records.

• 18:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Uh, Melvin Van Peebles, uh. Mario's dad, Mario Van Peebles, a great director, actor.

• 18:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 00

  And Mario was in the movie.

• 18:44Billy Corgan?

  And, um. Now, I read this. You. On set, there's, there were rumors of unsimulated sex scenes. Do you know about this?

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Well, we weren't on those scenes. We were just doing the music.

• 18:56Billy Corgan?

  I would hope.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  No, no, uh, um, I don't know if we could have took that, you know, and, uh. It it had been over, I said, man, I knew we should have claimed to California. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? And, uh, uh, but, um, um, we shot the, uh. The soundtrack in about three days.

• 19:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 00

  There are still base mistakes on there.

• 19:20Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 19:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that, uh, uh, I remember I got the album.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  Uh, as a gift and, uh. And and I put it on, I said, let me see if the mistake is still there.

• 19:35Speaker 00

  Put it on, I said, it's still there. Cause that was the days where you didn't have a lot of time to overdub.

• 19:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  You know.

• 19:41Billy Corgan?

  Well, three days.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Now, the whole band recorded at the same time.

• 19:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:44Speaker 00

  You know, and, uh, but it was a great experience working with Melvin.

• 19:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, that's such a cool thing. Um, I know that your brother didn't become like. This kind of visionary producer right away. I know you were guys working with a guy named Whistert, Mr. Whistert.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Uh, Joe. Charles Stepney.

• 20:02Billy Corgan?

  But what, in the beginning, it was Mr. Whistert, right? And Joe Whistert?

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Joe, that's right. Joe, at that time.

• 20:08Speaker 00

  You didn't really have independent African American producers.

• 20:12Billy Corgan?

  They kind of gave you this guy.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  They gave you this guy. He was the house producer.

• 20:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Was he encouraging of your brother's sort of.

• 20:19Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 20:20Billy Corgan?

  Production kind of.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Joe was very cool. Absolutely.

• 20:22Billy Corgan?

  That's cool to hear, yeah.

• 20:23Speaker 00

  Uh. Uh. But Joe was there to watch, uh, watch over us.

• 20:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, you got nine black guys in there, man. You might burn the studio down, man. You know what I mean? You know, this, you know what I mean? And oh.

• 20:39Billy Corgan?

  That's a lot of testosterone.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  That's a lot of testosterone in there, man. You know what I mean? And um.

• 20:45Billy Corgan?

  You know, those horn players, you know.

• 20:46Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, your horn players, man.

• 20:48Billy Corgan?

  They got a lot of time on their hands.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  A lot of time. They'll burn the whole place down. And you were talking about you, you in the Black Power movement too. Black Power, Ungawa, burn it down, right? And take him with you. And um, uh, so, uh.

• 21:03Billy Corgan?

  But you brought up Mr. Stepney too as well.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, Charles, Charles, he worked on the last season times record. The other two records, uh, uh, we did on our own with, with Joe.

• 21:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Then Charles really came in there, came in there really on, on, uh, on, uh, Open Our Eyes. Charles is great. He was our Charles, he was our Quincy Jones.

• 21:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  He could play it. He could write it. He could produce it. And he was the only one really that really Reese listened to.

• 21:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  I mean, Reese listened to us, you know, like, you know, you know, one end out the other. But Charles knew his stuff. And Charles had worked with Ramsey.

• 21:45Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  On the, uh, a great record that Ramsey did, a remake of Beatles songs.

• 21:51Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I need to find that then.

• 21:53Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, you gotta find like Mother's Nature Sun.

• 21:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 00

  Um, Charles did those records.

• 21:59Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Is it that, is that, that, uh, Mr. Stepney kind of pulled out like the sophistication that was kind of hiding there? And then when it was there, then we came kind of like, oh, this is, this is it.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And then he taught us.

• 22:12Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 22:12Speaker 00

  Uh, a lot.

• 22:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  As players. And, and, and he slowed it down. He slowed it down.

• 22:20Billy Corgan?

  Can you explain that a little bit?

• 22:22Speaker 00

  When we were doing the Sweet Sweet Back.

• 22:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  We never had a chance to overdub.

• 22:28Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  When we did Open Our Eyes and That's Where the World, we cut the tracks. And Sep would take us individually and say, okay, I'm gonna need you tomorrow all day. Bring a sandwich. And then he would go over everything that I was missing on the track. You know, he showed me a double stop. He showed me this. He said, now let's try that again. Go to him and then he said.

• 22:51Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  And, and, and a compliment, uh, that he would give you. He would say, I didn't know you could play like that. It was so encouraging. And it made the, uh.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  Your work more pristine. Every note was right. And everything was right.

• 23:12Billy Corgan?

  When I think of you guys, it's like, everything's so organized.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:16Billy Corgan?

  It feels like a party, but it's like, everything's like, uh, uh.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  That's right. It feels like a party, but it's music.

• 23:22Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  And actually, you learn. If you try to follow that stuff, you'd be saying, oh, my God.

• 23:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, that's why, because I grew up with a musician father, he would be like, now, these guys. You were held up as like the shiny example of like, that's music.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 23:39Billy Corgan?

  Which is cool for me.

• 23:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:41Billy Corgan?

  Because then I would listen, I'd try to understand what it was that he was hearing.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Right, man.

• 23:45Billy Corgan?

  Beyond, I like it or I don't like.

• 23:47Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 23:50Billy Corgan?

  Explain to me a little bit about, I know we're kind of skipping around time a little bit, but there's this moment where like, some of the original band kind of leaves.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Right, the original from the first band left.

• 24:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So it ends up just being you and your brother.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  That's right. It was just me and Reese.

• 24:05Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  And.

• 24:06Billy Corgan?

  Was that like, I don't know, I don't want to project that, but was that like, you guys were like, it's going the wrong way, or?

• 24:12Speaker 00

  No, I just don't think there was a meeting of the minds. And.

• 24:17Billy Corgan?

  What did those guys want as opposed to what you guys want?

• 24:19Speaker 00

  I don't know, because Maurice and them would have meetings, and I was never involved in the meeting.

• 24:22Billy Corgan?

  You're still the kid brother, yeah?

• 24:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I didn't know, I didn't know, like, what, like, what meeting, and what is this? And, and so after those things, Philip Bailey joined us.

• 24:33Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 24:33Speaker 00

  Who was actually a musical director for another group on Warner Brothers.

• 24:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay. What band was that? Do you remember?

• 24:41Speaker 00

  It'll come to me in a minute.

• 24:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, but.

• 24:43Billy Corgan?

  But I mean, what a, what a voice.

• 24:45Speaker 00

  What a voice.

• 24:46Billy Corgan?

  When I saw you guys a few years ago, I think he was 71 at the time, he was hitting notes that were like.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:53Billy Corgan?

  It's like, what a voice.

• 24:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  Right, man. And.

• 25:01Speaker 00

  He had a voice then, still got it.

• 25:03Billy Corgan?

  I bet.

• 25:03Speaker 00

  And a wonderful guy too, really great guy. And a great musician.

• 25:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 00

  In his own right, solo artist in his own right, you know.

• 25:13Billy Corgan?

  Phil Collins. You know, it's like, oh yeah, we found Philip Bailey.

• 25:15Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 25:17Billy Corgan?

  He was, he was over at the corner, you know, just hanging out.

• 25:19Speaker 00

  That's right, that's right. But he had moved to Los Angeles.

• 25:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but still, what a beautiful marriage.

• 25:26Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 25:27Billy Corgan?

  Right. Um, I saw this, uh, when you guys start figuring out what becomes like the quintessential Earth, Wind & Fire sound, I saw where Rolling Stone called it a cosmic choir.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:39Billy Corgan?

  And I like that.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:41Billy Corgan?

  Cause there was always this kind of celestial quality to your music.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  And you know, and you know, it was a big deal for us to get into Rolling Stone magazine. That was, that was like the holy grail at the time, you know? When we got in there, you know what I mean? Uh, we said, oh man, we arrived.

• 25:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:59Speaker 00

  You know?

• 26:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I mean, there's definitely, if you look at it from a historical point of view, you guys seem to blow the market wide open.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:07Billy Corgan?

  There had been other artists that had crossed over, but you guys seemed to just erase the lines.

• 26:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:13Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel that at the time?

• 26:15Speaker 00

  Well, I, I knew we were hitting the mark, you know, we were happy we were hitting the mark, uh, but we were hitting the mark with great music too. It's just like, we weren't blowing it open because we blew it open.

• 26:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 26:25Speaker 00

  You know, we blew it open because the, the music was there.

• 26:28Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's, I mean, you tell me, but I, going back through your catalog to talk to you, there's no compromise. Do you feel that when I say it like that? It's like, you're one of those bands where I don't feel you guys, like you're, you're very much doing your trip.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, we're doing our trip. That's right. We were doing our trip.

• 26:46Billy Corgan?

  It's not like you guys are trying to bend and find the market, like the market comes to you.

• 26:50Speaker 00

  That's right. And we had, we had, uh, um, we had the goods too, though.

• 26:55Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 00

  We had the goods, man. I mean, the goods.

• 27:00Billy Corgan?

  Uh, your brother Fred White joins at some point.

• 27:03Speaker 00

  Yes, Fred. Yes, yes. My, my baby brother, God rest his soul. What a wonderful kid. Baby, he's a baby.

• 27:10Billy Corgan?

  Was it hard being in a band as three brothers or was it a good thing? Or is it, is it just?

• 27:15Speaker 00

  It's like just, see with us, it wasn't that a big of a deal.

• 27:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Reece said, we're going to the studio. I said, okay, what time? Uh, two o'clock. Oh, what time's Freddie get there? I told him two, he'll be there at four and uh, and Freddie had played with Donny Hathaway.

• 27:27Billy Corgan?

  Right. I saw that. And somebody I didn't expect, Little Feet, maybe?

• 27:31Speaker 00

  Little Feet. That's right. With Lo George.

• 27:33Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  With Lo George and those guys.

• 27:35Billy Corgan?

  Wow, that's his cool musician.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  That's, that's some different, with Lo George, man. That was a great group.

• 27:40Billy Corgan?

  That, that Louisiana kind of.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, that, that, that was, that was great. You know what I mean? And uh,

• 27:45Billy Corgan?

  That's cool.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Uh, Little Feet was a great group. Lo was great, man. Really underrated.

• 27:51Billy Corgan?

  Still?

• 27:52Speaker 00

  Underrated. Underrated. It was underrated.

• 27:54Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  And uh, um, and Fred was to keep the pocket. And then as Maurice started transitioning more as producer, Fred did the drums.

• 28:05Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Things like that. And now one thing about Freddie, which I was always like sort of envious and jealous of him. When Maurice had played the tracks, before we go in the studio. Like Freddie wouldn't like, you know, I, it's a demo of the song, blah, blah, blah. Freddie wouldn't show up for the demos. I'd be there listening, trying to get it together, trying to get it. Reece played the track right before we cut it. Freddie could remember it the first time down. First time down and he wasn't even there. And uh, I'd have to listen. I said, I had to take it home.

• 28:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  I gotta listen in the car. I gotta get into it. I gotta, you know, uh, I gotta have a cassette deck at the time, by the bed. So I, you know, so I could get in there and nail it, you know, but he was so brilliant, so young.

• 28:55Billy Corgan?

  Some guys are just like that, right?

• 28:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. He, he just had it down.

• 28:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I saw when you guys played Cal Jam 74, which is a legendary.

• 29:03Speaker 00

  California Jam.

• 29:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 29:05Billy Corgan?

  Day of music. Two hundred, two hundred fifty thousand people live on ABC.

• 29:09Speaker 00

  Right, yes. Don Persson, right?

• 29:10Billy Corgan?

  I went and watched you guys playing. There you are in your yellow pants, just rocking out.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  And, and my wife patting on the shoes. You know what I mean? Um.

• 29:20Billy Corgan?

  Was that kind of a, I don't want to be overly simplistic, but was that kind of a breakout moment?

• 29:26Billy Corgan?

  Or is that?

• 29:26Speaker 00

  That was a breakout moment crossover wise.

• 29:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's kind of what I was after.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  To the African American public, we were, we were known. You know, on all the black stations, the DJs, the records, things like that. But on, uh, with that, that was a big breakthrough, uh, through moment because we only had Soul Train.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  That's all we had.

• 29:47Billy Corgan?

  That was it?

• 29:48Speaker 00

  That was it. And, um.

• 29:50Billy Corgan?

  And sadly for a lot of great African American artists, that was it.

• 29:53Speaker 00

  That was it.

• 29:54Billy Corgan?

  Was Soul Train.

• 29:55Speaker 00

  And, and it was limiting.

• 29:56Billy Corgan?

  What was the gentleman's name who ran?

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Don Cornelius.

• 29:58Billy Corgan?

  Don Cornelius.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  And, and Don was a, a DJ.

• 30:01Billy Corgan?

  Right. What a voice.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  In Chicago on WVON.

• 30:03Billy Corgan?

  That's right.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  The voice of the Negro. Right? Right? And.

• 30:08Billy Corgan?

  Well, I mean, to me, Don was the pathway by which I, which I found great soul music.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Right. And later on, Don said, the biggest mistake that he made was not having us on Soul Train. Cause see, we wanted to be on Soul Train.

• 30:20Billy Corgan?

  I bet.

• 30:21Speaker 00

  But we wanted to play live.

• 30:23Billy Corgan?

  Uh, James Brown played live on Soul Train.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  Right. And, uh, but Don wouldn't let us play live.

• 30:30Billy Corgan?

  Any reason? Just too much of a hassle?

• 30:32Speaker 00

  Uh, and looking back at it,

• 30:35Speaker 00

  uh, maybe we should have lip sync because that's what everybody else was doing. You know, I mean, we, but don't forget that we were elitist.

• 30:41Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 30:42Speaker 00

  And they were.

• 30:42Billy Corgan?

  Rightly so.

• 30:43Speaker 00

  And we had that kind of music that you, this, this music is too good to be, uh, pretending to play.

• 30:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:48Speaker 00

  On a, on a record.

• 30:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Same for us. Will we be asked to lip sync? We always think like.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  He said, no, no, man, we're not, man. We play, man, man, we musicians. That's what we do. You know what I mean? We, we don't need no record, no, you know, no, uh, no tape. You're right. So, um, um. But Don was a good guy and, and he always came over and said, man, that's the biggest mistake I ever made, you know?

• 31:13Billy Corgan?

  Especially when you guys got huge.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right. Because nobody knew what, no one knows how big anybody's gonna get.

• 31:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but you guys got really big. Cal Jam, you guys played with the Eagles, Seals and Crofts.

• 31:26Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 31:27Billy Corgan?

  Black Sabbath, Deep Purple.

• 31:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 31:29Billy Corgan?

  And Emerson, Lake and Palm.

• 31:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, ELP, right. Yeah, man. I remember them guys, man. Right, right, right, right. That was a, um.

• 31:38Speaker 00

  That was a great show. We were, uh.

• 31:40Billy Corgan?

  It's legendary now. That's, that day is legendary.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  I think we were number two on the bill.

• 31:46Billy Corgan?

  I think you followed.

• 31:47Speaker 00

  Seals and Cross?

• 31:48Billy Corgan?

  Seals and Cross.

• 31:48Speaker 00

  We followed Seals and Cross, right?

• 31:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 00

  And, uh, and you know, now you have laminates.

• 31:54Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 31:55Speaker 00

  Uh, and at that time, it was a little strict. You know, with that, that, that concert was a little strict backstage.

• 32:03Billy Corgan?

  Bet.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  The politics. So you wore the laminate with a number on it.

• 32:07Billy Corgan?

  Mm hmm.

• 32:08Speaker 00

  That let them know, okay, you came on two.

• 32:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  When you get off, you gotta get out of there.

• 32:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  Right? So that's what happened with that particular.

• 32:22Billy Corgan?

  So you didn't get to see the show?

• 32:24Speaker 00

  No, because they wouldn't let us see it.

• 32:26Billy Corgan?

  Oh, my goodness.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  They wouldn't let us come out and see the show.

• 32:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  They couldn't.

• 32:30Billy Corgan?

  There's this famous clip where Ritchie Blackmore, the guitar player for, for Deep Purple, rams his, he was mad about the, I guess the show was running late or something. So he, he, do you ever see this clip?

• 32:41Speaker 00

  No.

• 32:42Billy Corgan?

  He takes his guitar and he rams it through the, the lens of the camera. Like for real, like.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 32:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, for real. And then he lights his amps on fire.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 32:54Billy Corgan?

  You guys missed all that.

• 32:56Speaker 00

  No, we missed all, and, and, and, and we weren't into that stuff. No way. You know what I mean? We couldn't, we couldn't, we couldn't ram nothing and, you know, said anything. We couldn't afford it.

• 33:04Billy Corgan?

  That's right. That's right. Every time I ever broke a guitar, I was like, do I really want to pay for another one?

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Real try.

• 33:10Billy Corgan?

  Um, is it true that, uh, you talked about that's the way of the world album? But it's true that it was supposed to be for a movie and you guys saw the movie and thought the movie was gonna be a bomb and?

• 33:19Speaker 00

  Oh, that's where the world.

• 33:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Can you, can you, is that a true story?

• 33:21Speaker 00

  That's where the world was, uh,

• 33:26Speaker 00

  Six Shore. And Six Shore had produced Superfly.

• 33:30Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  And of course, that record was big.

• 33:33Billy Corgan?

  Hello, yeah.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  So we think, oh, we're gonna be with Six Shore. Great. Super. And, uh, uh, so we shot the, the movie.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  And it was Harvey Keitel's first movie.

• 33:45Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 33:46Speaker 00

  Harvey's first movie, you know.

• 33:47Billy Corgan?

  Before all the.

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, hoopla. The hoopla. And and he plays a producer.

• 33:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 33:54Speaker 00

  That's trying to break a black act.

• 33:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  That was the premise of it. And.

• 33:59Billy Corgan?

  And you're and you guys are the act?

• 34:01Speaker 00

  We were the act.

• 34:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  Uh.

• 34:02Billy Corgan?

  I've never seen the movie, that's.

• 34:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were called. That Earth and Fire, we were called The Group.

• 34:08Billy Corgan?

  The Group.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Right.

• 34:09Billy Corgan?

  That's weird.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  Weird, isn't it?

• 34:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Corny, right?

• 34:12Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  And um.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  But the record was so good.

• 34:20Billy Corgan?

  Hello.

• 34:21Speaker 00

  I mean, it was so good. And and we saw a rough cut. Uh. At an editing place, it was called Editel. On Highland. And watched a movie. And um. Uh.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  I said, oh, my God.

• 34:46Speaker 00

  I started crying. I mean, I was like, you know, I said, oh, my God. Uh. Oh, you know, uh. But I was assured that it was going to be good because.

• 35:03Speaker 00

  Columbia Records.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Was all geared up. They weren't even thinking about the movie. Because they were gonna break, they were gonna break it black anyway.

• 35:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 35:12Speaker 00

  You know.

• 35:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:13Speaker 00

  They weren't thinking about.

• 35:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Pop. But the record ended up taking off. It ended up being huge, Shining Star.

• 35:21Billy Corgan?

  Hello.

• 35:21Speaker 00

  You know.

• 35:22Billy Corgan?

  Number one album, number one song.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 35:26Billy Corgan?

  I think if you'd correct me, but I think you guys were the first American, African American act to have. Both.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  Both.

• 35:32Billy Corgan?

  At the same time.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  At the same time.

• 35:34Billy Corgan?

  That's, I mean.

• 35:35Speaker 00

  At the same time.

• 35:36Billy Corgan?

  When my album went number one, I asked my manager, is there any higher position? You know, like, because when you're at the top, it's like.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 35:43Billy Corgan?

  Have we actually arrived?

• 35:45Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. Um.

• 35:47Billy Corgan?

  And you're like, at that point, you're what, 24, 25 years old?

• 35:50Speaker 00

  I'm 20.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  Twenty four.

• 35:54Billy Corgan?

  Not bad. You're doing all right.

• 35:56Speaker 00

  That was doing all right. I was twenty four and

• 36:02Speaker 00

  I had just bought my first cool car.

• 36:05Billy Corgan?

  Do you remember what it was?

• 36:06Speaker 00

  My first cool car.

• 36:10Speaker 00

  A Datsun two eighty Z.

• 36:12Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Silver AM FM radio. Black leather seats.

• 36:18Billy Corgan?

  Igno eight track seventy five?

• 36:22Speaker 00

  No, it was a cassette.

• 36:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay, cassette. Okay, because cassette was the new thing.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  The new thing.

• 36:26Billy Corgan?

  That's right.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Eight track was the old thing.

• 36:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  For the bigger cars, the caddies and all that stuff, right? The bigger, bigger caddies, right?

• 36:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  You cannot write your name and your address on that eight track, right? Uh, but yeah, it was, uh, it was a watershed moment.

• 36:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Columbia Records did a great job.

• 36:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 36:42Speaker 00

  Pound for pound, the music

• 36:46Speaker 00

  was right there.

• 36:47Billy Corgan?

  Well, Shining Star, that's the first time I consciously knew there was this group and they were making this music. I mean, I'd heard the music, but it was like, now it was my music because like we had a forty five of Shining Star.

• 36:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 36:59Billy Corgan?

  And I remember just listening to this record thinking, how do you make that sound? Because I love sound. It's like something that's

• 37:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:06Billy Corgan?

  Personal to me, you know, the sound of a record.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:10Billy Corgan?

  And I just think, I kept thinking.

• 37:12Speaker 00

  And George, George Massenberg. And you know, my, no, George.

• 37:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, hello. But I mean, the sound of that

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 37:17Billy Corgan?

  That record, like

• 37:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:19Billy Corgan?

  What is this? Because I'd heard soul music my whole life.

• 37:24Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:24Billy Corgan?

  But this was some other stuff, like

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:26Billy Corgan?

  What's going on?

• 37:27Speaker 00

  Right.

• 37:28Billy Corgan?

  The Christmas, the rhythm, the sound of the voices, the horns, just.

• 37:32Speaker 00

  And we recorded it at Caribou.

• 37:34Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  Caribou Ranch, Jim Garcia.

• 37:36Billy Corgan?

  Right, from Chicago.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  From Chicago, had Chicago.

• 37:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 00

  Blood, sweat and tears.

• 37:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:41Speaker 00

  Uh, so we, we recorded up there for like six weeks. We stayed there six weeks. And it was good for us because we had a chance to kind of get off the grind.

• 37:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 00

  You know,

• 37:53Billy Corgan?

  Focus.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Focus, stay in one place every day.

• 37:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  You know, uh,

• 37:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 37:57Speaker 00

  Be around the mountains and things like that.

• 37:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Wow. How did you, uh, I mean, that's a, that's a heady age to get a lot of success.

• 38:06Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 38:08Billy Corgan?

  Were you cool with it? Did it go to your head? Like, how did you, how did you feel about it?

• 38:12Speaker 00

  I was cool with it. Uh, some of it was heady. Oh.

• 38:17Billy Corgan?

  You know how it goes. Every society, everyone wants to know your name and hang out with you and.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did hang out because I went to a lot of the clubs, the whiskey, the rainbow and the rainbows.

• 38:31Billy Corgan?

  From Chicago.

• 38:32Speaker 00

  From Chicago.

• 38:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh. I mean, Chicago, everyone.

• 38:36Speaker 00

  The Roxy.

• 38:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:38Speaker 00

  The Roxy came a little bit later.

• 38:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Oh, I went to the clubs.

• 38:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  Because that's where all the music was at.

• 38:43Billy Corgan?

  Well, you're young.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've been all the clubs. I'm like, the music, I want to hang out. You know what I mean? I never did the drug thing. I was very lucky with that.

• 38:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:52Speaker 00

  I never, uh.

• 38:54Billy Corgan?

  Especially those years in the seventies.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, that was.

• 38:57Billy Corgan?

  Out here it was.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  Out there, it was, it was, uh, um.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  Every drug you could imagine was there.

• 39:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 00

  And it was going in different successions. You know, it was going from like, you know, weed,

• 39:12Speaker 00

  marijuana to, to,

• 39:17Speaker 00

  to freebase to this. It was moving. It started with psychedelics.

• 39:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  You know, started with the psychedelic era.

• 39:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? And, uh, but I was very, very careful and what, and what, uh, uh, kept me together was, um,

• 39:35Speaker 00

  fear.

• 39:37Billy Corgan?

  Sometimes that works, right?

• 39:38Speaker 00

  It worked great.

• 39:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  And, and, and, and respecting, uh, Maurice because he had worked so hard.

• 39:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  And he took a skinny kit and put him in his band.

• 39:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 00

  And he kept this promise. He said, because I know he used to tell me, he said, man,

• 40:01Speaker 00

  when we signed with Clive and we got their first big contract, we were rooming together and he knocked on the door and Reece had a deep voice. He said, man, this thing I'm getting ready to put you into is going to make you a legend. And all I heard was like, legend, legend, legend.

• 40:22Speaker 00

  You know, and I didn't want to, I didn't want to disappoint him. You know what I mean? Because he, he took a risk for all of us.

• 40:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:32Billy Corgan?

  I get it. Okay, so now, things are cooking. He starts Kalimba Productions. And there's that great, uh, is it Denise Williams?

• 40:42Speaker 00

  Nisi, right? Great record.

• 40:44Billy Corgan?

  That record is, phew.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Had that record come out later, it would have got nominated for a Grammy. She came out early before the Grammys got its act together.

• 40:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  The, the Grammys didn't really get his act, uh.

• 40:57Billy Corgan?

  We could argue they still haven't gotten their act together, but.

• 40:59Speaker 00

  Yes, we just, we can't, we can't, can we? Uh, uh, they hadn't gotten their act together in terms of African American acts. The Grammys really got their act together where people had a chance to notice it when Michael Jackson.

• 41:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  And Stevie.

• 41:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 41:14Speaker 00

  You know, we got Grammys, but nobody knew about it.

• 41:18Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  You know, we got Grammys and, you know, uh, now you get a Grammy's and the winner is Earth when the fire, you're sitting right in the front, you go right up, you know? Then, and the winner is Earth when the fire, they're in, up in, uh, aisle Z. Seat forty-three, and then you start saying, well, how are we gonna get down there? You're not.

• 41:36Billy Corgan?

  They don't want you up.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  They didn't want you up there.

• 41:39Billy Corgan?

  But listen to that, that, this is Nisi, I mean. And I, it struck me because I, I knew the music a little bit, but what struck me was like. That's like Neo, Neo, what they would call Neo Soul later.

• 41:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:52Billy Corgan?

  But like, twenty years before it gets there.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  Right.

• 41:56Billy Corgan?

  Like you guys were like, you guys were so broad in your, in your ability, like you guys are hitting this. All of us like a totally different home run with a different artist.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Right, man.

• 42:04Billy Corgan?

  That's different than Earth when it fires vibe, which is a totally other game over here.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Right.

• 42:09Billy Corgan?

  It just strikes me like, wow, you guys were on fire, excuse the pun, but.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah. Wow. That was a great record.

• 42:16Billy Corgan?

  And I, and I listened to the track and I was like, I sure hope you're playing on this because I want to talk to you about it.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I am. That's me.

• 42:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I know.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  That is me. And, um.

• 42:24Billy Corgan?

  That whole thing is just, wow.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  That's a, that's a superb record.

• 42:28Billy Corgan?

  Isn't it cool when you look back and you just see like, there's just magic going on, right?

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. And she sounded so wonderful.

• 42:35Billy Corgan?

  What a singer.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  You know, a great singer. She was with Stevie Wonder first, though. In, in Wonderlove.

• 42:41Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I didn't know that.

• 42:41Speaker 00

  Yes, and, um, uh, and then Stepney.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Heard her voice. And Nisi was doing the demos for the emotions.

• 42:53Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  And then Reese and then Steptoe Reese, man, we ought to record her too. And um, and they recorded Nisi as well as the emotions.

• 43:05Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Yes. Emotions from Chicago?

• 43:07Billy Corgan?

  Just rocking. You guys are just rocking. It's just, it blows my mind because I don't want to overstate it, but my father so badly wanted to be successful. So all I heard about in the seventies was how difficult the music business was. You know what I mean? So I know maybe firsthand what it took for you guys to be that successful, particularly as an African American group in America at that time. Like I understand it. Like I

• 43:32Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 43:32Billy Corgan?

  I saw, I had like, almost like a front row seat.

• 43:35Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 43:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, because my father mostly played in groups with African Americans. He wanted nothing to do with white music.

• 43:40Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:41Billy Corgan?

  So he was like, you know, the joke I always make, he was the white guy in the black band. He wanted nothing to do with white music.

• 43:47Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 43:47Billy Corgan?

  And he would tell me, this is where it's at. This is the best music. So that's what I'm saying. When he held up your records, he like, he meant it. He wasn't just a fan. He was like, this is, this is music. This is the kind of music I want to make.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Right.

• 43:59Billy Corgan?

  And I, you probably wouldn't remember, but when we first met, my father literally picked up the bass because of you.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 44:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, for real. And he was a really good guitar player. But something about the way you played made him want to play bass. So then he became a really good bass player too.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 44:17Billy Corgan?

  So it blew my mind because like my dad was really good. And then suddenly he's playing all this crazy shit on bass. And I'm like, why are you playing like this? He's like, I want to be like Verdi.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 44:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I'm sitting here watching and playing in the living room, like trying to be Verdi.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  Wow, man.

• 44:31Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. For real. Wow. Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 00

  Cool shit. Bam.

• 44:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. That's why I get chills because I, I was there, even though I was a kid, I don't, like, I understand now because I'm old, but at the time I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what I'm connecting to, but I feel it.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:46Billy Corgan?

  I'm hearing your music. I like your music. I'm listening to your music on my own. And here's my dad in the living room trying to play like Verdi.

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 44:53Billy Corgan?

  So when you say why you wanted to talk to me, that's why I want to talk to you.

• 44:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. No, but when I got your call, I said, oh, man, I gotta do this, man.

• 45:00Billy Corgan?

  God bless you.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  I said, he's a man, man. And I said, he's hip. He knows what's going on.

• 45:05Billy Corgan?

  I understand. I'm.

• 45:08Billy Corgan?

  Tell me from the inside out because you know, as a kid, you know, there you, there you guys are with the pyramids. You know, the kind of the mystical earth, wind and fire, which I loved. I always thought it was so cool. But like from the inside out, like, was that somebody's idea or?

• 45:25Speaker 00

  It was, well, we always had these great ideas, but that idea crystallized with Doug Henning, the magician.

• 45:33Billy Corgan?

  By the way, when I read that you guys worked with Doug Henning and David Copperfield, I was like, wow, this is really out there.

• 45:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:40Billy Corgan?

  Cause, cause Doug Henning was the biggest musician of the seventies.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  Of the seventies.

• 45:46Billy Corgan?

  On TV all the time.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:48Billy Corgan?

  You remember magic, right?

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Exactly. And he was from Canada.

• 45:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay. I didn't know that. Yeah.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  So when he would tell us, you know, we're going to go out and about.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  That's where he would talk and, um, but he was a great artist though.

• 46:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  And we were, we were, uh, also at the particular time, George Faison, the choreographer director that put the pieces together of Doug's ideas.

• 46:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  He put them, he put those pieces together.

• 46:18Billy Corgan?

  But whose idea was it to sort of, I'm not saying he made a shift, but suddenly it seems like somewhere all of a sudden it, the, the, the famous image of you guys at that time becomes like the look of the band.

• 46:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, that, that, we called that the tube show because the tubes came down and we were like.

• 46:39Billy Corgan?

  I'm laughing because it's our go, please finish.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  You know, but then we were in these things that came up. So when it go down, all of a sudden we appear in the tubes.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  You know, and, um, um, Doug put it together, but, but George Faison really choreographed it really beautifully.

• 46:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  And directed and that show was a hard show to do. It, we rehearsed that show, man, for like,

• 47:06Speaker 00

  six months.

• 47:08Billy Corgan?

  Really? That's a lot of time to burn.

• 47:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't get that at all in, in today's market. You'd lucky to get six days, uh, you know, to rehearse. You know, because we had to do the music first. Then we had to do the choreography, which was hard because they did two choreography sessions. One, it started at 11, no 10:30 to, to 1:30.

• 47:35Speaker 00

  Took a two hour break for lunch, then we get into the evening part like, you know,

• 47:41Speaker 00

  six o'clock on.

• 47:43Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 47:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, that was, that was for the show, the big show.

• 47:46Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:47Billy Corgan?

  The reason I'm laughing is because um, I remember one day, my teacher, I don't remember what grade, but I would have been, whatever the year would have been, like nine, 10 years old. And the teacher said she's gonna go see you guys play live. And I was so jealous, you know? So after she saw you guys play live, I said, how was the show? And she goes, wow, they came down in these tubes.

• 48:11Billy Corgan?

  Right? So I always remembered that story. And then when I saw the Spinal Tap movie, there's that bit where the guy gets stuck in the pod.

• 48:18Speaker 00

  And right.

• 48:19Billy Corgan?

  And I always wondered if that was like a, like a, like a, like a rib on you, you guys with the tube.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  It could have been. It, it could have been.

• 48:25Billy Corgan?

  I wonder if they got that from you.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  It, it could have been, they might have. And, and the thing about it, the rehearsals were closed.

• 48:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 48:32Speaker 00

  And uh, nobody got in those rehearsals. You couldn't, you know,

• 48:38Speaker 00

  you couldn't get in those rehearsals.

• 48:39Billy Corgan?

  It's because you didn't want anybody to know.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  That's right, because don't forget now, we were an African American group.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  And um,

• 48:50Speaker 00

  and with us, we didn't, you know, now there's more latitude. We were afraid that our ideas were gonna get stolen.

• 48:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  You know?

• 48:58Billy Corgan?

  And that's a reasonable.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  And we wouldn't be able to do it.

• 49:02Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 49:02Speaker 00

  That we would get stolen, so we locked everything.

• 49:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, wow.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  No, but then you didn't have cameras then, but um, we didn't let anybody in, but we didn't really do that in the studio either. You know what I mean? We didn't like, you know, uh, let a lot of people in the studio watching us.

• 49:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:21Billy Corgan?

  I'd forgotten, but of course, it makes total sense, you guys being in the Sergeant Pepper's movie, I'd forgotten you guys were in there. And you had the biggest single from that movie.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 49:31Billy Corgan?

  Um, any reflections? Cause that movie's kind of considered an interesting uh moment in time.

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 49:37Billy Corgan?

  Everybody assumed it was gonna be a big movie and turned out to be kind of a bomb.

• 49:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, everybody thought it was gonna be a uh a big movie, but you know, we learned from the that's the way the world.

• 49:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  Record. About that record.

• 49:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  Cause when we did Sergeant Pepper, it was um Billy Preston, the Bee Gees.

• 49:55Billy Corgan?

  Peter Frampton.

• 49:56Speaker 00

  Peter, Peter, uh who was a good friend of Maurice's, by the way.

• 49:59Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  Peter was. And uh Greek uh.

• 50:02Billy Corgan?

  Aerosmith?

• 50:03Speaker 00

  Aerosmith, right, Steven.

• 50:05Billy Corgan?

  The Bee Gees, of course. You said the Bee Gees.

• 50:07Speaker 00

  The Bee Gees, um. And we were just sort of like the black thing to throw into the movie.

• 50:14Billy Corgan?

  Hmm. Can I, if it's, if it's not a strange question to ask, when you guys faced those types of situations and you knew that's kind of what they were doing, were you cool with it or are you just? I, I don't, I don't know what it must feel like, but it seems to be like, how do you, how do you still go into a situation with full enthusiasm if you feel like?

• 50:31Speaker 00

  You just go, you do, cause you know, our ego was so big and we had, had all those hits, so we said, we don't care.

• 50:36Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 50:37Speaker 00

  You know, but we did that, we did Sergeant, the Sergeant Pepper got to get you in my life.

• 50:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:41Speaker 00

  And um.

• 50:42Billy Corgan?

  What a great.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  And we.

• 50:44Billy Corgan?

  Paul McCartney said it's maybe his favorite.

• 50:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, George Harrison came up to me and said, he thought that was a great rendition. And I was, oh, my God. And.

• 50:52Billy Corgan?

  Nice compliment.

• 50:53Speaker 00

  Uh. It turned out to be a, a number one song.

• 50:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Great song, but what we did, um.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  We put the single out. Before the movie came out.

• 51:10Billy Corgan?

  Cause you'd learned your lesson on the.

• 51:11Speaker 00

  We learned a lesson on that other one.

• 51:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Um. And it was a number one record before the movie came out.

• 51:17Billy Corgan?

  Ah, I see.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  So we didn't depend on that movie making the record a big hit.

• 51:22Billy Corgan?

  Smart.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  And uh.

• 51:23Billy Corgan?

  Did you know it was gonna be a, uh, I don't wanna say it was a bomb, but did you know it wasn't the movie didn't click before, did you see it before it came out?

• 51:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, we did see it.

• 51:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, how'd you feel about it when you saw it before?

• 51:34Speaker 00

  Well, we knew it was not gonna be a hit because uh when they, we were singing, everything was out of sync.

• 51:40Billy Corgan?

  Uh.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  We said, oh, oh, that's a kiss of death.

• 51:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Um, uh, but we didn't really worry too much about it, you know, it was like, uh, uh, it didn't feel like it was.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  It was a lot of hype, a lot of hype, you know, and it was really about the Bee Gees at their time.

• 52:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it really hurt the Bee Gees.

• 52:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, because it was.

• 52:05Billy Corgan?

  They had so much momentum. It was the first thing they did where, you know, because they had that crazy momentum.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 52:09Billy Corgan?

  We were on a roll.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:10Billy Corgan?

  It seemed like everything just kind of stopped.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  Well, because I think with the movie, um, it was a kiddie movie. It was like for kids. It wasn't really like, and the Bee Gees were doing some adult records, man. They were doing some How Deep Is Your Love and Too Much Heaven. When you listen to those records, man, they was, they did some great records.

• 52:32Billy Corgan?

  It's unfair, some of those productions, with those vocal stacks.

• 52:35Speaker 00

  And Maurice and I used to listen to their records. I remember he bought a record of their house, over at his house, of their records. He said, man, you gotta listen to this, you know, really great records. Barry Gibb as a producer?

• 52:51Billy Corgan?

  I think Barry, outside of George Martin, Barry has more number ones than anybody else ever.

• 52:56Speaker 00

  You see what I'm saying?

• 52:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  And then the things that Barry did with Robert Streisand.

• 53:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 00

  You know, Guilty.

• 53:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  That's it. You know, all that good stuff that he did with Streisand.

• 53:05Billy Corgan?

  Great, great producer.

• 53:06Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, but they were just, well, you know, commercialism sometimes can box you in.

• 53:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, it's kind of where I'm jumping starting to, but it's like, you guys, where a lot of bands were really hurt by disco.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:19Billy Corgan?

  You guys just kind of cruised through because you already were, dance was part of what you did.

• 53:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:24Billy Corgan?

  It didn't hurt you. Like, the Bee Gees were considered a kind of a credible rock act.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 53:29Billy Corgan?

  But the disco thing ultimately ended up hurting them. Of course, now this, why they're legends, but there was that whole period when, when the rock crowd turned against disco.

• 53:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, what, I think what happened, disco got beat up unfairly.

• 53:42Billy Corgan?

  You know, it started in Chicago, right?

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Right, in Comiskey Park.

• 53:46Billy Corgan?

  That was Steve Dahl.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  Comiskey Park, right, that burned those records.

• 53:48Billy Corgan?

  I was listening the whole time. He went on for about two years on the radio about disco sucks, disco sucks. But he was just a local DJ on a rock station. Okay. Somehow he convinced the White Sox to do that event. We're gonna blow up all the disco records. So if you brought a disco record, you got into the game for free. They put all the disco records in a pile and they blew it up. Well, they blew a hole in the field, which was bad enough. And then all the fans that still had some disco records with them started throwing the. The records at the field and it's one of the only games it's ever been forfeited by a team. The White Sox lost the game that they didn't play because the fans were throwing the records at the players on the field.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  And see, and in a way that was unfair too.

• 54:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  Because don't forget now, a lot of it had a lot to do with disc jockeys because don't forget now, the only records that were able to get on the air were disco records.

• 54:40Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  At that time, you know, it was like, everything was

• 54:45Speaker 00

  four on the floor.

• 54:46Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:46Speaker 00

  Four on the floor. So regular songs weren't getting played.

• 54:49Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Even Neil Diamond did a record with four on the floor. Forever in blue jeans, baby.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  That's all you heard on radio.

• 55:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  And I think it hurt anybody that said, I'm a disco guy.

• 55:04Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 55:05Speaker 00

  Don't forget now, part of disco was the platform shoes, was the big afros. You know, so I think it hurt it. I think it hurt them because they had the tag of disco.

• 55:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:16Speaker 00

  Whereas if you really get into their records, man, they did some great records.

• 55:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:23Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel there was any toll from all this success? Did you, did you guys wear down? Cause there's this point where you guys take a hiatus. I know it's in the eighties, but.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Right, eighty-three, right.

• 55:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but is there, I don't want to say, did the cracks appear anywhere or is it just, are you guys just running headlong?

• 55:39Speaker 00

  I think we were just running headlong, man, you know, no breaks, no sleep. I mean, we were knocking them records out, man. I mean, knocking them out. I mean, every day, every day. And then don't forget now, we were part of the culture change. You know, we were part of that big, that big culture wave.

• 55:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:58Speaker 00

  You know, we were part of that whole thing that was moving, you know?

• 56:03Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:03Speaker 00

  You know, so, oh, absolutely. You know, I think it took a toll on Reese.

• 56:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  You know?

• 56:08Billy Corgan?

  But you were, were you cool with it? Or I'm just asking you to reflect on the time a little bit.

• 56:13Speaker 00

  I think. We didn't really, really have a choice.

• 56:17Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 56:18Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? I think it just, and don't forget, a lot of other things was converging. The music was changing.

• 56:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  It was going from real drums to drum machines.

• 56:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, even you guys made kind of a eighties kind of drum machine type of record.

• 56:31Speaker 00

  Right, which really, actually, in retrospect, probably was a mistake.

• 56:34Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's weird to hear a record where you're not really playing, and if you are.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 56:38Billy Corgan?

  The synth is loud, the synth is louder than you.

• 56:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so.

• 56:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  And if you listen to every eighties record, you can tell every eighties record. Drum machines. Uh, remember that sound?

• 56:52Billy Corgan?

  I kind of like that sound.

• 56:52Speaker 00

  Right, you know?

• 56:55Speaker 00

  And, and so I do think, uh, it took a toll on all of us.

• 56:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:58Speaker 00

  And I think that era, uh,

• 57:03Speaker 00

  it took a toll on that era too. Cause when you really look back at it, you know, like we're talking about our work, which was really primarily seventies work, things like that. We don't talk about the eighties that much.

• 57:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  The eighties don't get no love.

• 57:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I wasn't as familiar with some of your eighties records. I went and listened to some stuff.

• 57:20Speaker 00

  They did, but I don't think we had a hit in the eighties.

• 57:23Billy Corgan?

  Not that I remember.

• 57:24Speaker 00

  No, we didn't really start getting it back together to the late eighties.

• 57:28Billy Corgan?

  But what's weird to me is I listened to some of that stuff and the music's still good. It's not like I think like, you know, sometimes you listen to a band you love and, and then you hit, they hit that weird wall and you think like, oh.

• 57:39Speaker 00

  You said, oh my God, cut it off.

• 57:40Billy Corgan?

  But not with you guys.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  No, we were pretty lucky. We were very lucky. And then also too, one of the things that we had, we were fortunate that the audience waited on us.

• 57:49Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  To get it together.

• 57:52Billy Corgan?

  Well, you think it was just a deep loyalty that they had with you?

• 57:54Speaker 00

  I think we had done such really good work. And there were not a lot of African American acts that big. So they waited on us.

• 58:06Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 58:06Speaker 00

  Uh, the, uh,

• 58:10Speaker 00

  The acts that I thought that really great, of course, Michael.

• 58:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  You know, blew through the roof.

• 58:15Billy Corgan?

  Prince, of course.

• 58:16Speaker 00

  Prince, Lionel, um.

• 58:21Billy Corgan?

  I mean, on some level, there must be a level of pride because you inspired this, this other wave that came in.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Now, the one thing that they got that we never got, we never got MTV. We were never on MTV.

• 58:33Billy Corgan?

  Wow, even in the heyday?

• 58:35Speaker 00

  Never.

• 58:36Billy Corgan?

  That's my jaw dropping on the floor.

• 58:38Speaker 00

  Never.

• 58:38Billy Corgan?

  How is that possible?

• 58:40Speaker 00

  Who knows?

• 58:41Billy Corgan?

  Wow, that's crazy.

• 58:42Speaker 00

  We were never, we never got on MTV. Uh, would you believe we never got the cover of Ebony?

• 58:49Billy Corgan?

  That's, that's even more jaw dropping.

• 58:51Speaker 00

  More jaw, right. And then we never got the cover of, uh, Jet magazine. And Jet should have been easy because mostly the guys would get the Jet magazine to look at the pinup girl in the middle. You know, at the music, at the newsstand, they would get it and, uh, and they said, oh,

• 59:09Speaker 00

  that was Jet magazine.

• 59:10Billy Corgan?

  But even wasn't Jet in Chicago?

• 59:11Speaker 00

  Yes, right.

• 59:13Billy Corgan?

  You didn't even have the hometown advantage.

• 59:14Speaker 00

  Right. And, um, so, um, so we didn't really get too much love. But when we started, the world started changing again.

• 59:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Getting more urban again.

• 59:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  You know, we were right there.

• 59:28Billy Corgan?

  Wow, that's crazy to me. Um, talk about this however you like, but I, you know, I kind of remember it, but then reading it out, you know, your brother goes off, starts producing Neil Diamond, Barbra Streisand.

• 59:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:42Billy Corgan?

  Phillip Bailey starts to go solo.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 59:44Billy Corgan?

  A huge solo artist.

• 59:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 59:47Billy Corgan?

  You did some production work.

• 59:51Billy Corgan?

  Did you see that as just sort of like, you know, the, the world is expanding because of your success and, but did it feel like the band was falling apart? Did it feel like everybody was still on the same page?

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  It felt, it felt a little bit of both, falling apart and together. And we were still creative though. You know, we were still doing some great work.

• 1:00:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Speaker 00

  I worked with Mark King, Level 42, great bass player.

• 1:00:11Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. And, uh, um, but we were still growing. Don't forget that we were only in our early 30s.

• 1:00:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but you know, the music business can be cruel that way.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  It can.

• 1:00:22Billy Corgan?

  You know, if suddenly the wind blows a little bit different.

• 1:00:25Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:00:26Billy Corgan?

  You know, you guys still have all this stuff going on.

• 1:00:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:00:29Billy Corgan?

  It's not like, you know, the phone stopped ringing. You, you guys were busy. But even I was surprised and, and I'm not looking for gossip. I don't really do gossip, but like, You know, I, I, I thought for sure, like if your brother was producing Streisand, that you would have been on the record. I didn't see your name on the record.

• 1:00:43Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:00:44Billy Corgan?

  So it wasn't, again, I'm not looking for gossip. It's just like, is it just everybody gets busy and kind of?

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  No, I just think he had his own production thing he wanted to do. I think he wanted to expand.

• 1:00:55Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:00:55Speaker 00

  You know, and, and work with other artists, other musicians and things like that. And of course we ended up working together again anyway.

• 1:01:02Billy Corgan?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  You know, but, but that's, that's par for the course.

• 1:01:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, okay. I was just curious about that.

• 1:01:10Billy Corgan?

  When your brother, explain the sequence where your brother figures out he's got Parkinson's and he kind of semi-retires from the stage. And you kind of walk me through that a little bit.

• 1:01:19Speaker 00

  Well, um, when he said he had Parkinson's, um, I didn't know where Parkinson's was really, to be honest. None of us knew. And then he decided not to, uh, tour, but, uh,

• 1:01:39Speaker 00

  he still was involved, you know, because his ideas were still there.

• 1:01:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:42Speaker 00

  He still was in the studio with us, you know what I mean? And, uh, uh, and he had it for a long time. He had it for a long time.

• 1:01:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Speaker 00

  You know, and, um, he, you know, he did a great job. He did, um, Reece did a hell of a job, a hell of a job. I mean, he really, he laid it down, man. He laid it down, you know what I mean? He really,

• 1:02:09Speaker 00

  he stuck to his convictions. That's what I love about him, you know, as a person too.

• 1:02:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  You know, you know, and the thing about it is he was there to get all of the honors, you know what I mean? That he deserved, uh, uh, and of course we got Kennedy Center honors too.

• 1:02:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Speaker 00

  And, uh, and I love the fact when LL Cool J said, "We love Earth and Fire and let us not forget Maurice, Maurice." You know, all the people from the South calling Maurice, you know what I mean? So Reece got his, he did get his, you know what I mean? And he's getting it again because, uh, you know, uh, we have a documentary coming.

• 1:02:43Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, that Questlove.

• 1:02:46Billy Corgan?

  Oh, that's gonna be amazing.

• 1:02:47Speaker 00

  It's gonna be good.

• 1:02:48Billy Corgan?

  I saw the Sly one. I thought, I was very impressed.

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, we're right after that, you know what I mean?

• 1:02:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Speaker 00

  And, uh, it's really good.

• 1:02:55Billy Corgan?

  I thought it was interesting with, with the Sly doc on Questlove. I know Questlove just a little bit, you know?

• 1:03:00Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:01Billy Corgan?

  I've met him through the years and he's always been very, very kind to me. So as you know, sometimes when you know somebody even just a little bit, you're willing to kind of take the ride, maybe because you think like, hey, we're fellow soldiers in this game. Now he's moving in the doc space. I kind of want to see what he's got.

• 1:03:18Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:03:18Billy Corgan?

  And he, you know, if you remember the, the, the, the, the, um, the title of the Sly doc is like the, the bird in a black genius or something like that.

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:28Billy Corgan?

  You know that? Yeah, it's called like Sly Stone, the bird in a black genius or something.

• 1:03:32Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:33Billy Corgan?

  And he talks, or at least the doc sort of basically points Sly's obviously had huge drug issues, but he said a lot of it was the expectations of the African American community on, on Sly.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:03:47Billy Corgan?

  It's an interesting thing to pose. You know what I mean? It's not something I would necessarily come to my own conclusion on, but watching Quest Love frame it up in the documentary and really kind of push past like, just call it the mythology of Sly.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:04:01Billy Corgan?

  But really say, do we really understand what Sly was going through?

• 1:04:05Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:04:05Billy Corgan?

  In these years.

• 1:04:06Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:04:06Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? Do we really understand? And he, and he paints a very particular picture of the pressures that Sly was getting from the African American community at that time.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:04:17Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  I think, I think Quest is probably right.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  He probably was right about that. You know what I mean?

• 1:04:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, he's a, to me, sorry, he's a smart guy, Quest, you know? So to me, it's like, he made me have to rethink Sly's whole story. But that's what I loved about the doc. Cause he did, it told a beautiful story, but he also made me have to rethink about things. And I hope in a way, he also does the same with you guys. It doesn't have to be about African American issues or in music. It could be something that I wouldn't even understand. It might be about your relationships as brothers or something.

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:04:53Billy Corgan?

  But I saw that he was willing to take a bold step and, and say, do we really understand this person's story?

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, what the story that, uh, was told about us was good. It was, uh, primarily about Maurice.

• 1:05:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  Our relationship to him, you know, what he went through.

• 1:05:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  There's pictures of our mother, which, you know, you meet and you, and you look at those pictures, you'd be saying, oh, wow. You know what I mean? And, um, and it, and, and we had a chance to show, um,

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  The peaks and the valleys.

• 1:05:30Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:31Speaker 00

  But he did a great job with it, you know what I mean? Uh, as a, as a, as a director.

• 1:05:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? Um, we come out looking really good. Uh, because, you know, because that's what you wanted. Because, uh, uh, originally at first, I was the last one.

• 1:05:45Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:46Speaker 00

  To sign on.

• 1:05:48Billy Corgan?

  Were you skeptical for any particular reason?

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  Well, I didn't want it to be a, a tell all, tell all.

• 1:05:55Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:05:55Speaker 00

  Because sometimes these documentaries.

• 1:05:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. In order to keep it moving.

• 1:05:59Speaker 00

  To keep it moving.

• 1:06:00Billy Corgan?

  It comes more about drama than what the drama actually was. Does that make sense?

• 1:06:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and people, uh.

• 1:06:08Speaker 00

  The one thing that I like about, um, Earth and the Fire is that people come up to me and they, they thank me for making the music. They thank us for making all that great music. I just didn't want anybody to come up to me and say, man, I didn't know y'all were like that.

• 1:06:24Speaker 00

  Right?

• 1:06:27Billy Corgan?

  I thought you guys were just there in front of the pyramid.

• 1:06:29Speaker 00

  Man, I thought, man, I, man, I didn't know y'all was like that. Wow. Right? Because, you know.

• 1:06:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  Uh, you don't know, but, but Philip, Ralph and I, you know, we're one of the producers.

• 1:06:40Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Speaker 00

  So that gives us some.

• 1:06:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I mean, my, my sense is, uh, that there's a greater appreciation now for your brothers. Maurice, we're talking about his, his particular brilliance, like what he brought to the table.

• 1:06:55Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:06:56Billy Corgan?

  I think that's pretty cool.

• 1:06:57Speaker 00

  I think if the doc had come out, maybe, but we had one come out about 25 years ago. Uh, uh, and it's much more mild, although I liked that one too. I thought it was great. You know what I mean? I didn't think we needed to do another one, you know what I mean? But now everybody's into documentaries.

• 1:07:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Speaker 00

  People know where the documentary is now.

• 1:07:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, they, I think the, um, kind of like with music, the rise of how computers are used in editing have really blown the doc space open because you can put so much more information.

• 1:07:26Speaker 00

  Yes, that's true.

• 1:07:27Billy Corgan?

  The, the director of the David Bowie documentary, Moon Age Daydream, Brett Morgan told me that, uh.

• 1:07:35Billy Corgan?

  He worked with the Bowie Estate and he had five million pieces of data.

• 1:07:41Billy Corgan?

  Five million pictures, videos, interview clips. I mean, can imagine. I mean, 25 years ago, you didn't have that ability to put all that information in and

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:07:51Billy Corgan?

  You know, keyword and so you see, that's why documentaries have become so much more rich in terms of the videos and the pictures.

• 1:07:59Speaker 00

  That's true.

• 1:08:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, so as a fan, I'm excited to see this new one because I, I want to sort of.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. When I saw it, I said, oh, wow.

• 1:08:08Billy Corgan?

  We did a lot.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  I said, oh, wow. You know what I mean? Uh, when we saw the, uh,

• 1:08:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  A screening, you know?

• 1:08:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:14Speaker 00

  And, uh, uh, but it, but it was, it was good, you know, it was, it was good, man.

• 1:08:20Billy Corgan?

  I'm happy to hear it.

• 1:08:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Billy Corgan?

  I was watching the other day, I found your, uh, like clip of you working out or something.

• 1:08:28Speaker 00

  Oh, the other day?

• 1:08:29Billy Corgan?

  I follow you on social media or something. So you came up and you were working out. You were, I know you were doing like ballet.

• 1:08:36Speaker 00

  Ballet, yeah, I'm doing ballet and I'm working out and, and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I'm doing that stuff. Yeah.

• 1:08:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  You know?

• 1:08:43Billy Corgan?

  Um, I'm impressed that you're, uh, still doing it. I mean, you're still out there. You're still rocking the people. You know what I mean?

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, let's, go ahead.

• 1:08:54Billy Corgan?

  What drives you? I mean, you know what I mean? Is, I, I know it's a simple question, but I mean, you must love it, but I mean, like, what gets you out of bed?

• 1:09:02Speaker 00

  Well, I still like what I do, you know, um, you know, and I'm grateful. And, um,

• 1:09:11Speaker 00

  I still look good.

• 1:09:13Billy Corgan?

  You look great.

• 1:09:15Speaker 00

  I'm still healthy. Um, uh, you know, it's, I'm, you know, I'm around great people. You know, great family, my wife, Shelley. Um,

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  and it's really, it's really good.

• 1:09:30Billy Corgan?

  This just occurred to me just talking to you.

• 1:09:32Speaker 00

  Tell me.

• 1:09:32Billy Corgan?

  Right now. Um.

• 1:09:36Billy Corgan?

  I make this joke and maybe it makes sense to you. Sometimes I've had long contentious years with rock critics, you know what I mean?

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:09:45Billy Corgan?

  Picky, picky rock critics. And sometimes I make a joke to them and I say, be careful because my children might take over the business.

• 1:09:52Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:09:53Billy Corgan?

  And they kind of look at me like that and I said, like, you understand what I'm saying? I'm not talking my kids are going to get in the business. My kids might take over this business, the pumpkins business.

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:10:04Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that's your plan, but I'm, I'm, I'm saying is, is there something that you feel like, wow, this family band, like it's, we're still going?

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  Well, well, uh, uh, my son Warner is one of the producers of the doc. He's a great kid. He's not a kid anymore.

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  Cabran, Maurice's son, uh, one of the producers of the documentary, KB.

• 1:10:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? And a great kid. Leo the lion like me. And, uh, uh, and in certain respects, Cabran has stepped up and Warner has stepped up. You know what I mean? As, uh,

• 1:10:49Billy Corgan?

  That's kind of what I was after. This such a beautiful family story.

• 1:10:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, they grew up around it.

• 1:10:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Speaker 00

  And you don't even know they are, uh, checking it out, you know, uh, the way they are.

• 1:11:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:09Speaker 00

  You know, and, and, uh, my wife Shelley sings the honeycomb. Our granddaughter Nala sings. So they were, they're around, they're around it. They've been around it a lot.

• 1:11:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  You know, in terms of, uh, uh, the music business. But, but, and then, you know, you, you wait on them to grow too. You know what I mean?

• 1:11:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  The, the, the one thing that I've tried to do is just be supportive. Kind of stay out of the way and let them find their own space.

• 1:11:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:34Billy Corgan?

  But do you feel that, I guess what I'm after is when you're standing on stage and I've been, I've been able to see you play and I understand the joy that you guys bring to the crowd.

• 1:11:46Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:47Billy Corgan?

  I mean, the music is unbelievable, but the joy of the band, it's real.

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:53Billy Corgan?

  You know, you put on a great show, but it's coming from here.

• 1:11:57Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:57Billy Corgan?

  It's a, it's a heart centered thing that you guys do.

• 1:12:00Speaker 00

  It's not fake.

• 1:12:02Billy Corgan?

  Not even, not even close to.

• 1:12:04Speaker 00

  You gotta just go out there and do it, man.

• 1:12:05Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. Do you feel that your parents behind you, your, your brothers above you, do you feel all that?

• 1:12:12Speaker 00

  I feel all of it. I feel, I feel sad to feel my best teacher around. I feel Charles Stepney, you know? And I feel all of those, excuse me, those great guys that.

• 1:12:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:25Speaker 00

  That brought me this far.

• 1:12:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, man.

• 1:12:28Billy Corgan?

  I could feel that talk of you, you know?

• 1:12:31Speaker 00

  Well, yeah.

• 1:12:32Billy Corgan?

  It's beautiful.

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  You know, and it's a, you know, it's a once in a lifetime dream that you get for this.

• 1:12:39Billy Corgan?

  Hello?

• 1:12:40Speaker 00

  I know, man, to do the, you know, to do what we do. I mean, it's not like.

• 1:12:43Billy Corgan?

  Please, we're so lucky. It's not even funny.

• 1:12:46Speaker 00

  You know, it's not, you can't write this.

• 1:12:51Billy Corgan?

  No, two guys from Chicago, right?

• 1:12:54Speaker 00

  Right, man. And we should take, I should take the L.

• 1:12:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:58Speaker 00

  The L, the CTA, you know?

• 1:13:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, man, I used to do that. Now when I go to Chicago, I'm in my town car, you know what I mean?

• 1:13:08Billy Corgan?

  It's a little rough on the L right about now.

• 1:13:10Speaker 00

  Exactly, exactly.

• 1:13:13Billy Corgan?

  I saw where you put out this song in 2024, Superman.

• 1:13:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:13:16Billy Corgan?

  About your brother.

• 1:13:17Speaker 00

  It's a Mariches.

• 1:13:17Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and listen to it. It was beautiful. But I saw where you call him your hero. Can you, can you, I mean, it seems obvious, but I want to hear it from you. What made him your hero?

• 1:13:28Speaker 00

  Well, I wanted to be like him, you know, I admired him and still do. And if it hadn't been for him, I wouldn't be sitting here.

• 1:13:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  He, you know, he believed me.

• 1:13:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? And.

• 1:13:45Billy Corgan?

  Because sometimes when guys are in bands, sometimes it's sisters too, but when, when guys are in bands with a brother, who's gets, gets the, you know, he's the front guy.

• 1:13:54Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:13:55Billy Corgan?

  You know, he's the guy producing the records, all this stuff. Sometimes the brother gets almost like weirdly resentful, you know?

• 1:14:00Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:14:01Billy Corgan?

  These legendary situations, you know, bands break up over silly families, really more so than the, than the musical stuff.

• 1:14:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:14:11Billy Corgan?

  It touches me that you love your brother that way and it.

• 1:14:14Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:14:15Billy Corgan?

  Came through the band.

• 1:14:16Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And, and the thing about it is, is he gave me room to grow.

• 1:14:24Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I had a chance to to grow and and and not only be a a great musician, but to become an adult.

• 1:14:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:31Speaker 00

  In this thing called the music business. I mean, I be an adult in the music business, which is, as you spoke of earlier, uh, that is not an easy business, you know, to be in, particularly over a long period of time. You know, the long.

• 1:14:46Billy Corgan?

  When they say it's a marathon, not a sprint.

• 1:14:48Speaker 00

  That's right. That's right. But you have to be in it to know how far, how far you gotta go, you know? So, and I never would have had a chance to go to places and uh, see the things I've seen.

• 1:14:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:00Speaker 00

  I was eighteen years old, man. I weighed a buck oh five when I came out there, man. And and we lived at the uh, Franklin.

• 1:15:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:15:10Speaker 00

  On Franklin Avenue, uh, seventy forty seven Franklin.

• 1:15:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:15:15Speaker 00

  Uh, that's where Janis Joplin was.

• 1:15:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:15:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, man. That's where she died.

• 1:15:20Billy Corgan?

  Goodness, I didn't know that.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  Where we lived. And uh, uh, and then all kind of musicians would come through there. Hendrix, all that guys, all that, you know? Uh, and I met Jimi Hendrix.

• 1:15:33Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:15:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, and people say, what was it like? I said, he had a list. He had a list, he had a list. What's up, man? He had a list.

• 1:15:43Billy Corgan?

  Couple more things. Thank you for indulging me. Uh, I saw where Miles Davis said you were his all time favorite band. Now that is a compliment.

• 1:15:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:52Billy Corgan?

  Cause Miles was like beyond picky.

• 1:15:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, he didn't like anybody. Miles.

• 1:15:58Billy Corgan?

  He didn't even like the guys he played with.

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

  Right, right. And um, but Miles is always very nice to me. When I, uh, his nephew Vince and I are very, very, very close. We're like family, you know, come out of Chicago.

• 1:16:11Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 1:16:11Speaker 00

  And uh, and uh,

• 1:16:17Speaker 00

  Went to Miles's house. You know, uh, cause Miles lived here too after a while.

• 1:16:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:23Speaker 00

  You know, everybody always migrates to California at a certain point.

• 1:16:26Billy Corgan?

  Here we are.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  Amen. And, um, uh, so, um,

• 1:16:33Speaker 00

  I would go, I would never say anything. Never say anything and let him talk and things like that. And, and I was in the kitchen talking. And, uh, I was with Vince standing up in the kitchen. Then we were talking, then Miles said, why don't y'all split? He threw, he threw us out. Why don't y'all split?

• 1:16:54Speaker 00

  But, uh, he would talk about contrary emotion.

• 1:16:57Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 1:16:57Speaker 00

  Talk about harmony.

• 1:16:59Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:16:59Speaker 00

  Where you could put all the different notes.

• 1:17:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Speaker 00

  And he would draw the notes out.

• 1:17:03Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:17:04Speaker 00

  And he said, you know, and, um, and if you know mathematics, you can write, write music. You know, things like, you know.

• 1:17:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:12Speaker 00

  Things like that.

• 1:17:13Billy Corgan?

  Wow. Amazing.

• 1:17:17Billy Corgan?

  Two things left.

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  Go ahead.

• 1:17:19Billy Corgan?

  Uh, I want to share a story with you. So.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:17:23Billy Corgan?

  I got to see you guys play at Chicago Theater, I think it was. Would have been about, gosh, maybe it was maybe 10 years ago.

• 1:17:31Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:17:32Billy Corgan?

  Uh, Maurice was still alive. So if that gives you a kind of another timeframe. And, uh, you know, I'm a big celebrity in Chicago, so I call for tickets. I want to see the show.

• 1:17:42Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:44Billy Corgan?

  And, uh, and, uh, I'm sitting on the aisle and my wife's sitting here. She loves you guys too. She's a lot younger. So, you know, oh, and I actually have two stories for you, but sorry.

• 1:17:59Billy Corgan?

  So I'm sitting there and, and the show's just about to start, you know, it's just about to start. You can tell. And just as the show's starting, or maybe the show had started, a young man comes.

• 1:18:10Speaker 00

  Go ahead. Go ahead.

• 1:18:11Billy Corgan?

  A young man comes and kind of kneels next to me, says, are you Billy? And like, oh, how, how you doing? You know? And he goes, oh, it's so nice to meet you. And he starts talking to me and I'm thinking like, you know, show's about to start and I'm trying to be nice, but at the same time I'm like, I don't know if people are going to get mad because this kid's sitting here and.

• 1:18:34Billy Corgan?

  And he goes, oh, my father's really a big fan of yours. So, oh, thank you, you know? And he goes, oh, I probably should tell you who I am. It was your nephew.

• 1:18:45Speaker 00

  Oh, it was KB.

• 1:18:48Billy Corgan?

  And he said, I turn my, I turn your music on to my dad. My dad really likes what you were doing. You want to talk about a compliment?

• 1:18:55Speaker 00

  Well, because Cabran was on the staff at the time.

• 1:18:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:59Speaker 00

  Was that the night that the sound went out?

• 1:19:02Billy Corgan?

  You know what? I think it was.

• 1:19:03Speaker 00

  It went out for four songs.

• 1:19:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, the sound went out that night.

• 1:19:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, something blew.

• 1:19:10Billy Corgan?

  That's right.

• 1:19:11Speaker 00

  I remember. But the sound went out that night. Yeah.

• 1:19:15Billy Corgan?

  So, you know, this is this young guy talking to me and he's like, oh, Maurice is my dad. I mean, you want to talk about like

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Billy Corgan?

  blowing my mind because he's, he's telling me how much his dad likes my music.

• 1:19:28Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:19:28Billy Corgan?

  And he goes, I probably should tell you who my dad is. And then he told me.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  Right. Well, KB knows about music, man. And he, he used to A and O over at Hollywood Records.

• 1:19:37Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:19:39Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So, one other story, if you'll indulge me. So, knowing I was going to interview you, I was telling my kids, I got young kids, 10, seven and a baby. So I got the two 10, seven in the car. And I go, oh, I'm going to interview this great musician, you know, he's from Chicago.

• 1:20:00Billy Corgan?

  And they said, well, play us one of his songs. So I put September on and they go, oh, no, we know this song already, Dad. I go, you know this song? Yeah, it's Earth, Wind and Fire. I go, how do you know this song? Mom plays it in the car all the time.

• 1:20:17Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:20:21Billy Corgan?

  I mean, the beauty of music, like, wow. I mean, my kids listening to you at the same age, I fell in love with your music.

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:20:30Billy Corgan?

  Humbly.

• 1:20:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:31Billy Corgan?

  To me as a dad.

• 1:20:32Speaker 00

  Well, that's the thing that makes it so beautiful. See, we've transcended all the media, all the noise, you know? And it's, and now.

• 1:20:45Speaker 00

  Everybody likes our music. Even if they don't know who we are.

• 1:20:48Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:49Speaker 00

  They like our music. And they've all been touched by it. And they've all. And the nice thing about it, a lot of the great people, they've worked with us. And we were able to get through the whole thing, you know, from artists to executives to other musicians.

• 1:21:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:10Billy Corgan?

  Anything you want to add to all that? I know we talked a lot, a lot of stuff.

• 1:21:14Speaker 00

  Well, I just want to say, man, it is a pleasure and an honor to be sitting here with you.

• 1:21:17Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 1:21:18Speaker 00

  And, uh, and I didn't want to wait. I said, yes, immediately. I said, I got, I got to do this. That's my man. You know what I mean? I said, just really, I love, I love your work too, man.

• 1:21:28Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 1:21:28Speaker 00

  Just really good.

• 1:21:29Billy Corgan?

  God bless you.

• 1:21:30Speaker 00

  God bless you. Thank you.