233. “I save while she spends on vacations. Is this fair?”

Samantha (36) and Kevin (41) have been together for seven years, but their financial lives couldn’t look more different. He’s a high earner with $800,000 in investments and a paid-down mortgage. She’s still carrying student loans, car payments, and lingering shame about being “behind.” While Kevin saves methodically for the future, Samantha prefers to spend on experiences—especially travel—leaving him questioning whether their financial priorities will ever align. Beneath the surface, neither of them has truly learned how to talk about money without shutting down. Can Ramit help them move from avoidance and resentment to shared goals and real plans for the future? A special thanks to Ultraspeaking, who worked with Samantha and Kevin to help them communicate more effectively as a couple. Ultraspeaking is the fastest and most effective way to become a great communicator. Learn more here. In this episode we uncover: • Why Samantha believes she’ll never be “financially good enough” for Kevin • How their shared avoidant tendencies have allowed them to avoid financial planning for years • How their unspoken expectations around “fairness” create tension • Samantha’s logic for not paying rent or mortgage • How Kevin’s quiet resentment built up after Samantha didn’t use the housing savings to pay down debt • The real cost of their “guilt-free” spending, including $15,000/year on vacations • Why Samantha still feels broke, despite earning $148,000 a year • Samantha’s fears about not meeting Kevin’s expectations in retirement • The stark contrast between their savings: Samantha has one month of expenses, Kevin has six • How Samantha inherited a “spend it if you have it” mindset from her parents • Kevin’s fear of loss from divorce and why he avoids fully committing financially • The role of therapy in helping them rebuild communication and trust Chapters: (00:00:00) “I’ll never be financially good enough for Kevin” (00:13:39) “I feel like I have no say because he owns the house” (00:27:08) Ramit breaks down their numbers (00:37:44) “I still feel like I’m only making $50,000” (00:43:59) “Money burned a hole in my pocket” (01:03:09) “That’s the bed I made and I will lie in it” (01:08:25) “Closing doors is hard…but staying stuck is harder” (01:15:59) “It’s not about catching up — it’s about building together” (01:37:50) Where are they now? Samantha and Kevin’s follow-ups This episode is brought to you by: NetSuite | Download the CFO's Guide to AI and Machine Learning at https://netsuite.com/ramit Fabric by Gerber Life | Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at https://meetfabric.com/ramit Gelt | Book a tax consultation with Gelt at https://joingelt.com/ramit. As a member of my community, you can skip the waitlist DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off Facet | Facet is waiving their $250 enrollment fee for new annual members, and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to https://facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you Links mentioned in this episode • If you want help with your finances, join my Money Coaching program at https://iwt.com/moneycoaching Connect with Ramit • Get my new book, Money For Couples • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

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• 0:43Ramit Sethi?

  and you can join today at iwt.com/100k.

• 0:50Ramit Sethi?

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• 1:32Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:00Speaker 01

  I just don't feel like a good or worthy partner.

• 2:03Ramit Sethi?

  What is stopping you from changing the situation that you are in?

• 2:07Speaker 01

  I don't really want to stop going on vacations.

• 2:10Ramit Sethi?

  That's an honest answer.

• 2:11Speaker 01

  It feels more important that we have the experience than I have the money.

• 2:16Ramit Sethi?

  One of you has $4,000 a month to do whatever you want with, the other has $1,100. Seems like it could be a problem.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  I don't mind paying more for some of the vacations if that money actually goes towards the debt and not towards hobbies or animals.

• 2:31Ramit Sethi?

  You're making tons of money, but you're paying minimums on debt and more is going towards pigeons than student loans.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  Well, when you phrase it like that.

• 2:40Speaker 02

  I tend to be a very like conflict avoidant person. Anytime that it starts to be a conflict, I'm just like, all right, I'm done with this.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  At least seven times a week, I'm like, are you mad at me? And he's like, no, I'm fine. Happy seems the same as angry, so that is the challenge.

• 2:55Ramit Sethi?

  Today I'm talking to Kevin and Samantha, a couple that's lived together for seven years. They earn a high income and they have kept their finances entirely separate. Okay, sounds fine on paper, but underneath the numbers, there is a lot at play. Kevin owns their home. He has zero student loans and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested. Samantha is carrying $78,000 of student loans. She has barely any savings and almost no investments. When there's a major financial gap between partners, it can cause tension and shame, which is exactly what's happening here. Let's take a look at their numbers. I'm about to open up their conscious spending plan, which is the same tool I use with every

• 3:37Ramit Sethi?

  couple to see how much they make, spend, save and invest. Here's what I see. Assets: $652,000. Investments: $883,000. Savings: $23,000. And debt: $389,000. Their net worth is $1.17 million. Fixed costs: 43%. Investments: 12%. Savings: 1%. And guilt free spending: 44%.

• 4:07Ramit Sethi?

  All right, the spending looks fine on the surface, but again, when we go beneath the numbers, they are disconnected and resentful. Now, we have a lot more to reveal. In this episode, you are going to see a lot that you do not expect. But first, tell me in the comments, have you ever been in a relationship where one person had way more money than the other? How did you handle it? Did you separate your finances? Did you combine them? Did you set up rules? I want to hear your experience in the comments below. And now, listen in as we meet Samantha and Kevin. Samantha, I read your application, and something stood out to me right at the top. You said, "I feel I'll never be financially good enough for Kevin." What does "good enough" mean?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  That financially, he views me as an equal partner, and as somebody he trusts to make money decisions, and eventually combine finances one day.

• 5:03Ramit Sethi?

  And Kevin, would you agree with that characterization?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  I mean, I don't know that I really knew that. She's never said that to me before.

• 5:11Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on, that was at the top of the application. Samantha, you never said that to Kevin before?

• 5:15Speaker 01

  I guess not in those words. I once said, "I feel like even if I saved a million dollars, that wouldn't be good enough for you." And he was like, "Well, if it was a million dollars," which was supposed to be funny, but to me, I'm like, "Oh, man, is that the line? Millions of dollars? I will never hit that."

• 5:33Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, what happened next?

• 5:35Speaker 01

  We kind of just dropped it because it got me in a little bit of a mental doom spiral that, like, I could be perfect fiscally, do all the right things from there on out, and I'm not going to catch up unless I win the lottery.

• 5:50Ramit Sethi?

  And what does that imply? If you have less money than Kevin, then?

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Then I'm not contributing equally to our partnership. He's carrying the burden.

• 6:02Ramit Sethi?

  Is that bad?

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, I don't know. Another comment was made at one point that like he didn't want to carry the burden of us fiscally in retirement. And I agree, but it also kind of freaked me out because I won't have the same amount of money he will have. And so I can't tell if what he's looking for is like a concerted effort, or if he's looking for like an actual fiscal dollar amount.

• 6:27Ramit Sethi?

  You ever talk about this?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Not really. Our money is mostly separate. A couple of occasions we tried, but like, I was extremely embarrassed about my situation and I kind of brushed it off.

• 6:39Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Which of you is avoidant? By a show of hands. Both hands went up. Okay. That's pretty interesting. So you're both avoidant. You both know it. Do you both know that about each other?

• 6:52Speaker 01

  I know that about him. I would say that this area is an area I am avoidant in, and I'm not avoidant in a lot of other areas.

• 7:00Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. And Kevin, are you avoiding everything or just money?

• 7:03Speaker 02

  Most things, I would say.

• 7:04Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. All right. How long have you two been together?

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Seven years.

• 7:08Ramit Sethi?

  Is the ultimate goal to get married?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  I would like to be married. It's not a deal breaker for me at this point, but I feel as though money is a huge obstacle for that. I feel like I have to clean up a lot before that's something he would consider. That's not something he'd said to me. That's just something I have said to myself.

• 7:26Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, okay. So Kevin, do you agree or disagree?

• 7:28Speaker 02

  I think I would agree. I I've been married before and I am not super excited about getting married again. So I don't think it's like a, oh, if you get your money figured out, we're going to get married. It would put me in more of a place where I might want to.

• 7:39Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So you've been together seven years. You haven't talked about money that much. How often do you talk about money?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  I would say we comment at money rather than conversate about money.

• 7:52Ramit Sethi?

  Like, is that like snipe?

• 7:53Speaker 01

  It could be a snipe, or it could be just a genuine, wow, the groceries were expensive. And then the other person would say, yep.

• 8:01Ramit Sethi?

  What are some other comments that you say to each other about money?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  If we're talking about going on a trip or something like that. I guess we don't really say like, can you afford that? But more of a like, oh, that's going to be kind of expensive. But then there's no like, discussion past that. It's more of just like, yep, it is.

• 8:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What's next? Samantha?

• 8:19Speaker 01

  You spent too much money at the bird vet.

• 8:21Ramit Sethi?

  I like this type of conversation. I don't think I've really heard it that much. It's just like one sentence.

• 8:27Ramit Sethi?

  And it's kind of like when I talk to young kids, they go, your shirt is weird. End of the story. No more comments at all. This is done. That's it. They said what they have to say. I respect that.

• 8:39Speaker 02

  I think part of it is because our finances are very separate, other than just like we have a credit card that shared expenses are on, that it's sort of just like, all right, well, you do you, you know, kind of a thing.

• 8:49Ramit Sethi?

  Do you know about each other's financial situation?

• 8:53Speaker 01

  Now we do. We knew, I think, what a rough idea of what the other person made.

• 8:59Ramit Sethi?

  Rough like how rough?

• 9:00Speaker 01

  I knew how much he made when he started his job because he told me that he had to negotiate it. And then he would tell me that he got X percent raises. And so I could kind of infer from that what he made.

• 9:12Ramit Sethi?

  What the hell's going on right now? You're living together. You're together for seven years. You're not even talking about how much each other makes. What's happening here?

• 9:19Speaker 02

  I mean, I knew like an estimate of how much Samantha made, but I, I would ask and it was kind of just like, oh, I don't know. It's hard to know because it's sales and it could be different.

• 9:31Ramit Sethi?

  Do you guys talk about substantively about other things besides money?

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:37Ramit Sethi?

  What would be an example?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  Politics, books, family.

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Animals.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  Animals.

• 9:43Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Like you really talk about them. You grapple. You know each other's views. You probe, that kind of thing?

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 9:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. All right. Why not with money?

• 9:52Speaker 01

  It's embarrassing for me and I've never really had the skills to do it. I've never had the conversations in other relationships either.

• 10:02Ramit Sethi?

  When you think of money, what words come to mind for you?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Anxiety, but also potential.

• 10:09Ramit Sethi?

  You feel nervous right now?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:11Ramit Sethi?

  I can understand that. If you haven't been comfortable enough to even bring it up in your own long-term relationship, to be here talking about money with me, with us, with a camera. I can understand that that can feel very overwhelming. So I appreciate it. We'll take our time in our conversation today. Okay. Kevin, you ever ask her about her anxiety around money?

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Further back in our relationship, I tried to bring it up a little bit more and I, it just seemed like she wasn't interested in talking about it. I was just kind of like, all right, well, she doesn't want to talk about it. So I don't, I'm not going to push it.

• 10:45Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Can the two of you think of a time in the last three, six months where you were not on the same page about money?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Like a week and a half ago, we were on vacation and we're in the hot tub, glass of wine, looking out at the ocean. It's very lovely. And he asked me if I wanted to go to this place called Leavenworth, where we have gone every year around Christmas for the past five years. And I expressed that I don't think it's a good idea for me. I want to save money for vacations moving forward. And I have not been doing that.

• 11:21Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And Kevin, what did you say? Let's just role play it.

• 11:24Speaker 02

  I mean, we've gone every year before, and it hasn't been a problem for us for our money. So I don't see why we can't go. And not even acknowledging the like, need to save or that she's uncomfortable.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  It was clear to me he was disappointed at this point. So I said, we can take a look at it. Because I don't want my financial situation to put a damper on what he can do in his life.

• 11:51Ramit Sethi?

  And was that the end of it?

• 11:52Speaker 01

  The end of it was, we can look at it.

• 11:55Ramit Sethi?

  Have you?

• 11:56Speaker 01

  We have not.

• 11:57Ramit Sethi?

  Let's just do it right now. I don't know the price, but I'll make it up. 400 bucks a night, you're gonna go for four nights. That's 1600 plus taxes, plus blah, blah, blah. That's 2,200. Here it is. Here's the thing I found. I'm Kevin. Here you go, Samantha.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  I mean, if the expectation is that we split it 50 50, I don't think that that will be happening for me this year.

• 12:17Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, but I just spent so much time looking at all these Airbnb. We did it the year before. So what's the problem? We should be able to do it again.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Well, the problem is that the trip is going to cost $2,200. If we could find a trip for 1,500, I might be able to save that much money by December.

• 12:34Ramit Sethi?

  Why don't you just tell them that out of curiosity?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  That's a great question. I need to like, look and see what is reasonably possible for me to save before December, before I present that number to him.

• 12:47Ramit Sethi?

  Do you struggle to advocate for yourself?

• 12:50Speaker 01

  In this area, yes, because I don't wanna say no. I don't wanna turn down experiences that I know he wants to do because it would put a strain on me financially. Like, it feels more important that we have the experience than I have the money, as silly as that sounds.

• 13:08Ramit Sethi?

  Can you just say that again? I want you to hear yourself.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  It's more important that we have the experience than I have the money.

• 13:15Ramit Sethi?

  How's that strike you when you hear it?

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Self-defeating. It doesn't help me. It doesn't help us in the long run to say yes to everything.

• 13:23Ramit Sethi?

  It's pretty rare to meet two avoiders. Their annual income is a combined $369,000, and that is what is basically covering up these dynamics. That high income allows them to maintain separate finances and avoid uncomfortable conversations and really delay any true planning. Most couples could not operate like this without immediate consequences, especially if they were earning less than 100K combined. The pain of that avoidance would simply be way too big. But even with this really high income, that problem is coming to the surface. They're disconnected on their goals. They don't know each other's numbers, and they don't even really know what true financial partnership looks like.

• 14:08Ramit Sethi?

  Remember, they've been together for seven years, and what I learned next genuinely surprised me. Here's what Samantha said when I asked how they handled their biggest household expenses.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Kevin pays the mortgage, and we split the utilities, groceries, et cetera, 50/50.

• 14:27Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How did you agree on that?

• 14:29Speaker 01

  We didn't. At the time I moved in, I was unemployed. He did want me to pay him some rent at some point, and I did a couple of times, but I have not been. Sometimes the money just doesn't exist at the end of the month, but also, you know, this is his house. If he sells it, it's all his money. I feel like he is not my landlord. He's my partner. And doesn't it make more sense for the money to be saved or invested? Like, long-term, that seems like a more advantageous step to take than just giving him X number of dollars cash to probably just save himself.

• 15:09Ramit Sethi?

  And did you discuss this with him?

• 15:11Speaker 01

  I believe I have made a comment to that effect, but it was not a real discussion.

• 15:15Ramit Sethi?

  All right. But Samantha, how do you feel about not paying the mortgage, but splitting the utilities, groceries, et cetera? It sounds like you are comfortable with it, and it is what, how you would set things up if you had a magic wand?

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I am comfortable with that arrangement.

• 15:31Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cool. Kevin, what's your take?

• 15:34Speaker 02

  I mean, I think I was a little frustrated with that conversation. I think because before Samantha moved in, she had made a comment about, oh, you know, if, if I were to move in, I could help you pay your mortgage. But then, once she moved in, it was like, no, because it's like, you're the one that's going to benefit from it. So I don't think I should have to pay, which was a little frustrating to me.

• 15:54Ramit Sethi?

  What did you do when she said that?

• 15:55Speaker 02

  I think I very lightly voiced that I was frustrated, but then just stopped talking about it because I am extremely conflict-avoidant and just didn't want to have the conversation.

• 16:04Ramit Sethi?

  I want to ask you the same question I asked Samantha. Do you struggle advocating for yourself?

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:09Ramit Sethi?

  You said in your application that financial stress has caused frustration and stalemates. Can you give me an example of that?

• 16:17Speaker 01

  I think the mortgage one is a great example of a stalemate. I don't think that that is something you ask a partner to do if they don't have an ownership stake in the house, and we have just done nothing about it.

• 16:30Ramit Sethi?

  Let's flip the roles for a second. Let's say that you owned a house, and then he moved in with you. How would you structure it?

• 16:37Speaker 01

  I think that a partner is different than a roommate, and I wouldn't expect a partner to pay me rent as long as they were paying their part of utilities and groceries.

• 16:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And the argument that you made, which was like- Since he owns it, he would accrue any equity. I never hear renters make that argument to their landlord. Like, I'm not going to pay you rent because you're the one who's accumulating equity. What do you think about that?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  I'm not trying to build like a financial future with my landlord.

• 17:07Ramit Sethi?

  Are you trying to build a financial future with Kevin?

• 17:09Speaker 01

  I am, and I, I feel as though the rent money would be better allocated in an investment or savings scenario, given how far behind I am.

• 17:22Ramit Sethi?

  What if you weren't far behind? What if you had no debt?

• 17:25Speaker 01

  That's a good question for me. If I had no debt, I would probably have similar feelings, but also like would probably pay it just because I know that it would make him happy.

• 17:36Ramit Sethi?

  It doesn't seem very convincing to me. I don't mind that the two of you would talk about this. I think that's really healthy. And candidly, I think that couples can come up with whatever solution, as long as they both think it's fair. The argument kind of falls apart when you're like, ah, if I didn't have debt, I would probably pay it. Like, your debt is yours. I think if Kevin were in the same situation, the roles were reversed, I would be asking Kevin the same question. And I actually think that a lot of us would be like, Kevin, are you like a deadbeat? And I don't think either of you are a deadbeat. I've seen your CSP, I want to talk about it. Both of you do very well. It's really impressive. But I'm just wondering how much of this is invisible expectations that has never really been talked about with each other? I'm wondering how much of this is because of the debt? How much of it is gender expectations?

• 18:20Ramit Sethi?

  How much of this is just wrapped up in unexamined assumptions about money?

• 18:25Speaker 01

  I want to address the gender expectations first. I don't believe that he should be a provider. The money simply doesn't exist at the end of the month, and it doesn't feel like the best use of the money to pay him rent.

• 18:42Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, you said in your application that you feel you have, quote, "no say" because Kevin owns the house. What do you mean by that?

• 18:52Speaker 01

  I would love to live somewhere that is not the city we live in. And Kevin has also made similar comments, but what I have realized over the years is that they're more of like daydream fantasies than actual urges to move. And if I want to stay in a relationship with Kevin, which I do, I have to stay in this city in this house.

• 19:19Ramit Sethi?

  And can you tell me what you mean by his comments are more daydreams?

• 19:23Speaker 01

  We'll be in Seattle, for example, and he'll start looking at houses on Zillow. We'll get kind of into details of what we're looking for, but make no plans, no timeline for that to happen. And initially, we first couple of years of dating, when I would see him on Zillow, looking at these places, which were also places I wanted to live, I would get kind of excited and think like, oh, maybe this is really going to happen, but I think he just likes looking at houses on Zillow.

• 19:52Ramit Sethi?

  Kevin, agree, disagree?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  I mean, I do like looking at houses on Zillow, but also any place we moved would be a substantial increase in mortgage. And we couldn't afford that because I just assumed most of that would be on me. Financially, it just doesn't make sense.

• 20:09Ramit Sethi?

  What percentage of your relationship around money do both of you think is based on assumptions rather than clear communication?

• 20:18Speaker 02

  A lot of assumptions.

• 20:19Speaker 01

  Like 80%. I have started in the last couple of months, try to be more straightforward, telling him what I'm doing, because I honestly, I want him to be proud of me and like see that I'm moving in the right direction.

• 20:33Ramit Sethi?

  Do either of you have visibility into the other's savings or investments?

• 20:37Speaker 01

  We do not.

• 20:38Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Out of curiosity, if you were not living together, what would you be doing for housing?

• 20:44Speaker 01

  I would be traveling a whole lot less and I would have a whole lot less pets and I would not be going out to eat. My life would look a lot different.

• 20:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So what I'm hearing is Kevin's lifestyle has sort of pulled you up. To a level that is unsustainable for you if you were solo. Is that correct?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  Yes, I would have to make a lot of changes.

• 21:07Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay. Kevin, you want to comment at all?

• 21:11Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I think that makes sense. I suppose I didn't really think about like the trips and pulling her up into a spending area that she is not necessarily comfortable with. And I think I should think about more. I think part of my like frustration was that I was like, okay, I'm going to pay the mortgage. That's fine. If that'll help her pay off some loans or like that sort of thing. But then that didn't really happen, which was like a little bit frustrating for me. Because like, I'm like, all right, well, if I pay the whole thing, like I would have been paying it anyways, even if she wasn't living here. So it's not like a net negative to me. But like, if you're not having to pay for housing, then that should mean that you can pay off your student loans and that sort of thing. Or it should be much easier to do that. And since that hasn't really happened, that has been a little bit of a frustration for me.

• 21:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's fair. Do you ever bring it up?

• 21:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 21:56Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, all right. How do you both feel about money in your relationship?

• 22:02Speaker 02

  I can't think of any other word that are than really avoidant.

• 22:05Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha?

• 22:06Speaker 01

  I know as bad as I have made it all sound, I feel kind of optimistic because something in in me has changed. And I feel like I've gotten more open in just like the past couple of months. And I feel like I've gotten myself on the right track. But I would like the money part of our relationship to be more cohesive and less isolated.

• 22:29Ramit Sethi?

  Great. I love that vision. Kevin, let me put this up on screen. This is the wheel of emotion. Might help you access some of the feelings. I myself have used this. I learned this in therapy.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Oh, man, there are a lot of emotions, aren't there?

• 22:41Ramit Sethi?

  That's what every man who looks at this graphic says. He's like, what? There's more emotions than anger?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  I do feel mostly enthusiastic or optimistic, I would say, most of the time. But there is definitely some exasperation.

• 22:56Ramit Sethi?

  I will tell you, my facial reaction betrayed me. I was surprised when you said enthusiastic because I haven't heard you be enthusiastic about money once.

• 23:02Speaker 01

  This is his enthusiasm.

• 23:05Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Oh, okay. So your countenance is just more generally like relaxed?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:11Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Is that hard to read Samantha?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Absolutely. At least seven times a week. I'm like, are you mad at me? And he's like, no, I'm fine. Happy seems the same as angry is all of the above. So that is is the challenge.

• 23:26Ramit Sethi?

  In a dream world where you could wave a magic wand, what would your relationship with money look like?

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Magic wand, my student loan debt and my car debt absolutely gone. And we are able to discuss money openly and have communal goals with our money and really discuss like how we want to use money as a tool for X, Y, and Z. I want to be able to plan the year out with what we're going to do with our money.

• 23:55Ramit Sethi?

  And what about the house?

• 23:56Speaker 01

  Well, we wouldn't live in this house, magic wand.

• 23:59Ramit Sethi?

  You'd live somewhere else?

• 24:00Speaker 01

  Yes. And I would have an ownership stake in it and I would be making payments for it.

• 24:06Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cool. Kevin, back to you.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  That all sounds great. I think that and being on a path to early retirement.

• 24:13Ramit Sethi?

  Early is how early?

• 24:15Speaker 02

  As soon as possible, but 50.

• 24:17Ramit Sethi?

  50 and you are 41.

• 24:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Any surprises in what you both heard?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  We've talked about how he wants to retire early and how I probably will not be able to. And that is okay with me. I enjoy what I do and I'm perfectly happy with him like going on retired excursions and joining him when I can because the math is not mathing for me to retire at 50.

• 24:43Ramit Sethi?

  In the magic wand answer from both of you, I did not hear that you would like to be married.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  That's not as important to me as having a more teamwork view of our entire life.

• 24:56Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Any hesitations? Anybody? Kevin?

• 24:59Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I know owning a house together is complex if you're not married, but.

• 25:03Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, it can be done. We could talk about it. All right, let's look at the CSP. Kevin, why don't you read off the word in bold and then the number in full next to it for this entire box, please?

• 25:14Speaker 02

  Assets, six hundred and fifty two thousand five hundred. Investments, eight hundred eighty three thousand three hundred. Savings, twenty three thousand three hundred. Debt, three hundred and eighty nine thousand. For total net worth of one million, one hundred and seventy thousand, one hundred.

• 25:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and just to clarify, how much is your debt, Samantha?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  So my student loan debt is a little bit under seventy eight thousand and I owe approximately thirty thousand on my car.

• 25:44Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what's, what's the rest of it? The house?

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:48Ramit Sethi?

  All right, and then Samantha, can you read off the combined gross monthly income number, please?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Thirty thousand, eight hundred, three dollars.

• 25:58Ramit Sethi?

  You make three hundred sixty nine thousand dollars a year. Did you know that?

• 26:01Speaker 01

  No, and when we were looking at that, it kind of blew our mind, both a good and a bad way.

• 26:08Ramit Sethi?

  Good, meaning we make a ton of money. Bad, meaning like, where's it all going?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. Yes. It sounds like a lot, but it doesn't feel like a lot.

• 26:17Ramit Sethi?

  Three hundred sixty nine thousand dollars does not feel like a lot of money.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  I mean, not when you're living, living it.

• 26:25Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's continue. Your fixed costs combined are forty three percent, which is very low. Now, I would expect them to be kind of low because you make a high salary. But what is interesting to me is that your fixed costs are quite similar. Kevin is the one making eighteen thousand a month gross. And then we have Samantha making twelve thousand gross. What's interesting is look at those fixed costs, forty six and thirty nine percent. So they're kind of similar. However, Kevin is paying the mortgage, Samantha is not. So we have thirty one hundred going towards the mortgage. Samantha is paying zero, but let's continue looking down here. So we have equal on utilities. Samantha's paying a little bit more on insurance.

• 27:08Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha's paying quite a bit more on car payment. Debt payment's at a hundred and eighty dollars a month. It's interesting to see that the way that the two of you talk. About money is so different, but these numbers themselves are kind of similar. Now, I understand that there's a big one major difference here, which is the mortgage. What do you all make of that?

• 27:28Speaker 01

  I am surprised we spend a similar amount. I am surprised the percentages are low. They don't feel low.

• 27:35Ramit Sethi?

  I want to read off this pet category because it's unusual.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:39Ramit Sethi?

  We have Kevin paying $448 a month and we have Samantha paying $588 a month for a total of $1,036 per month. How many pets are we talking about?

• 27:51Speaker 01

  We have three dogs, two cats, five chickens and eight pigeons.

• 27:57Ramit Sethi?

  You said eight pigeons?

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yes, pigeons.

• 28:00Ramit Sethi?

  Did you grow up in a rural area with a lot of animals?

• 28:04Speaker 01

  I grew up in a small town. We still lived in a subdivision, but I have always been an animal lover. So always had a lot of pets growing up.

• 28:13Ramit Sethi?

  Let's continue down. Investments, so you both do 401K pre-tax. We have 1,900 bucks for Kevin, 1,200 bucks for Samantha. On top of that, we have some investments. Kevin is investing aggressively, an extra 1,400 post-tax and Samantha's doing 584. That's probably what Roth IRA?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 28:36Ramit Sethi?

  All right. And then, um, and then another 108 bucks for something else. What is that?

• 28:40Speaker 01

  An employee stock purchase.

• 28:42Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. Great. All right. So that's a total of 12%. Again, quite similar 14 and 10% just off of different incomes, but okay. Savings are at 1%. That's just 100 bucks a month. And then finally, these numbers I found remarkable. Guilt free spending for Kevin is at 40% or $4,000 per month. And for Samantha at 51% or $3,672. What do you all make of those numbers?

• 29:11Speaker 01

  It doesn't align with reality. I know I do not have thirty six hundred dollars left over. I did look at our dining out bill and it averages about nine hundred and fifty dollars a month eating out and I'm not totally sure where the rest of it is going.

• 29:28Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, really? Kevin, what do you think? He looks completely mystified.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  I don't know. I really don't know.

• 29:34Ramit Sethi?

  Guys, come on.

• 29:35Speaker 02

  I do. We spent like a decent amount on like going out and things like that, but like eight thousand dollars.

• 29:41Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, seven thousand, seven hundred fifty six dollars a month. You're telling me like there's no way that we doesn't feel like that, right? That's crazy. But it's not really crazy. If you add things up correctly, that is why the CSP is structured the way it is. So let's talk about it. Samantha, you said something very interesting. You said there's no way we have that amount of money left over. Maybe, maybe the math is wrong. Or maybe when you took that vacation and when you eat out for dinner and all that stuff, maybe that's not properly tracked here on a monthly basis. How much do you spend on vacations per year ballpark?

• 30:14Speaker 01

  Like the most recent one, the hotel alone was about twenty five hundred dollars. I would guess we spent another thousand dollars eating out.

• 30:20Ramit Sethi?

  Round up to four thousand. It's probably more like five thousand when you count all, everything. And how many vacations do you take per year ballpark?

• 30:27Speaker 01

  Two to three.

• 30:28Speaker 02

  Two to three, yeah.

• 30:28Ramit Sethi?

  Let's say three. I always round up. That's fifteen thousand minimum, which is like twelve hundred bucks a month. You starting to see how the numbers add up?

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:36Ramit Sethi?

  This is why you feel like, oh, my God, this is so crazy. Where's all the money? But actually, it's just not properly being counted and you're actually not getting the psychic benefit that you could. If you were instead to say, we're going to take three vacations a year. We're going to put the money aside ahead of time. We're going to appreciate that we can go to this fancy dinner place that we both love. It's gonna be awesome. And then when you look at your CSP, it looks like a video game where you're winning. Right now, this video game sucks. We have all these points at the top, but like. Where's all the money? Well, the money happened seven months ago and you just didn't track it. And now you, your mind does not know how to amortize it correctly. That's human nature. How do you all feel about that?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  I feel very much like validated in my desire to save towards the vacations and talk about them at the beginning of the year and plan for them. Taking vacations on a whim is, it's fun and it's lovely, but it's not putting me in the best position fiscally.

• 31:38Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha says things like, I feel like I'll never be financially good enough for Kevin. I don't think I'll ever catch up unless I win the lottery. It's more important that we have the experience than I have the money. All of this while earning $144,000 a year, which is a very good salary. This is exactly why I say how we feel about money is highly uncorrelated to what we have in the bank. Once someone feels behind, they often start to behave in destructive ways. They feel guilty when they are doing well by effective measure. It's like if your partner speaks a second language to their family and every time you hear them speaking to them, you feel bad because you don't speak the language. Nobody expects you to speak that language. You created that standard in your head and now you feel bad because you're not living

• 32:23Ramit Sethi?

  up to a standard that you yourself made up. We do the same thing with money. We create an arbitrary standard and then we feel bad about it. You know, the truth is a lot of people actually like feeling guilty about money. It gives them purpose. It reminds a lot of people how they were raised and that feels comfortable. After all, if you're not feeling guilty, who are you really? If you're listening to this and you realize you and your partner avoid these same kind of conversations, you don't need to wait years to fix it. Inside my money coaching program, you can learn how to talk about money clearly. You can connect over money and you can build a system that works for both of you. You can join at IWT.com/moneycoaching.

• 33:07Ramit Sethi?

  Have you all ever considered how much each of you proportionally makes? I would guess not because I don't really think you knew each other's income.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  No, not like actually.

• 33:17Ramit Sethi?

  So Kevin, you make 221 per year.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:20Ramit Sethi?

  And Samantha, you make 148 per year. It's like 60, 40 basically. How does that strike you?

• 33:26Speaker 01

  I'm not surprised he makes more.

• 33:29Ramit Sethi?

  Are you surprised that it's 60, 40 and not? Like eighty twenty?

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, I am surprised that it is sixty forty.

• 33:34Ramit Sethi?

  The way you talk about it, it sounds like he makes like eighty percent of the household income.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:39Ramit Sethi?

  You make a lot of money, Samantha. You make a hundred and forty eight thousand, three hundred and fifty six dollars. That's a lot of money. Have you internalized that?

• 33:48Speaker 01

  Um, no. I still feel like how I felt when I was making fifty thousand.

• 33:56Ramit Sethi?

  Wow. Do you think you'll ever feel good about how much you make?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  I do. I think that if I continue behaving like a person who makes almost a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and has those habits as opposed to the things I was doing when I was making fifty thousand dollars, then I can internalize that.

• 34:16Ramit Sethi?

  I want to talk about your savings. How come only one person is saving and it's only a hundred dollars a month?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  I save basically what I can at the end of the month.

• 34:27Ramit Sethi?

  Huh? I don't understand that. What does that mean? That's like a little Indian kid saying, I only study when I feel like it. It's like, what the f- I literally do not understand the words you are saying right now. What does that mean?

• 34:39Speaker 01

  After the bills are paid, after my exorbitant pet food and bills cost, I save or and invest the remainder.

• 34:50Ramit Sethi?

  As a non-pet owner, I have a difficult question to ask you. Who's more important, you or your pets?

• 34:55Speaker 01

  I guess me.

• 34:57Ramit Sethi?

  So, but you you pay close to a thousand bucks a month on your pets.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  That is correct.

• 35:03Ramit Sethi?

  And you only save a hundred dollars a month for yourself?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  That is also correct.

• 35:08Ramit Sethi?

  If you want to spend that much on your pets, okay, we can make it work, honestly. It's it's very doable. But it is striking that you only save a hundred dollars a month. And your answer was, I do whatever's left.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:19Ramit Sethi?

  How much do you have in savings?

• 35:21Speaker 01

  I have like forty four hundred. I checked it this morning.

• 35:26Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so let me ask a worst case question. I don't expect this is gonna happen, but I just want to ask just to make the point for you. Let's say that the two of you decide to separate. Okay? And Samantha and Kevin, you both go in your merry ways. Samantha, how long could you last with your existing savings?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Oh, like a month, maybe.

• 35:45Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. And this is somebody making $150,000. Do you think that that is normal?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  I do not.

• 35:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. What is stopping you from changing the situation that you are in?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  I don't really want to stop going on vacations.

• 35:59Ramit Sethi?

  That's an honest answer.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Don't want to stop buying a book that I want, or I don't want to have to make a hard decision about one of my pets.

• 36:08Ramit Sethi?

  Kevin, similarly, you have probably 20K in savings. So same question, if you were to separate, how long do you think you could last?

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Almost six months.

• 36:20Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. How do you feel about that?

• 36:21Speaker 02

  I feel okay about that. I feel like with the current situation in our country, I should probably have a little more saved. But I felt pretty good about having six months until recently.

• 36:30Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think about your numbers compared to my recommendations for the conscious spending plan? For example, in fixed costs, I typically recommend 50 to 60%. Your numbers are 46 and 39%. Investments, I typically recommend like 5 to 10. Your numbers are 14 and 10%. And you are putting away pre-tax money as well. So it's even higher than that. What do you think of that?

• 36:56Speaker 01

  I would like to increase mine.

• 36:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Kevin?

• 37:00Speaker 02

  I feel good about those numbers.

• 37:02Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. Savings, I typically recommend 5 to 10%. You're at 0 and 1%.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Not good. I would like to increase that as well.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  I'm kind of neutral on it because we should start spending or saving for like vacation and gifts and that sort of thing. But as far as like emergency funds and other savings, pretty much have what I want in savings.

• 37:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Guilt-free spending, I typically recommend 20 to 35%. You're at 40 and 51%.

• 37:29Speaker 02

  It's a bit high. It's clearly not guilt free spending because we're sort of feeling guilty about it. And you look at that number, you're like, oh, man, you guys must be doing a whole bunch of stuff. And it doesn't seem like we are.

• 37:38Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, what do you think about the numbers?

• 37:40Speaker 01

  I do think we probably spend that much, but I think it is, as you mentioned, amortized out over the course of the year. So on a monthly basis, it certainly doesn't feel like $3,600.

• 37:51Ramit Sethi?

  Notably, nobody said they want to bring that number down. Whereas all the other ones, you're like, yeah, I want to bring it up. Why is that?

• 37:57Speaker 01

  I don't really want to do less in my life, but I know that's what I have to do if I want to be on track to retire at any point in my life.

• 38:07Ramit Sethi?

  One of the surprising things that I find when I help people with money is when they actually come up with a super clear rich life vision. And then they have a system that funnels money to the right things. They're actually very surprised that they can often spend more on things they want because they've cut out all this random that so many people buy. They also can appreciate the things they do more, especially the bigger they are. It's a human desire. We don't want to do less of the cool things we love. I get that, but I think there's probably larger goals here to discuss, like, what is our rich life together? And how do we create a vision together? And that can often be more important than I don't want to give up spending on the things I've been spending on. You know what's wild?

• 38:52Ramit Sethi?

  People say they hate uncertainty, but when it comes to their own finances, they are totally okay with it. They don't know how much they spend. They don't even know how much they make. They don't know what their mortgage is. They have no idea if they'll be okay for retirement. It's one of the strangest things about human behavior, and I see it all the time. To understand where that comes from, we've got to go back. Let's take a look at their childhood to see what patterns they experienced that might be shaping their relationship with money today. Your family say about money when you were a kid?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  It wasn't discussed with the children directly, except to say like, we can't afford that. Or if you want that, you're gonna have to buy it with your own money. But there wasn't any like discussion on savings. And I still think my parents have a fairly unsophisticated idea of investments.

• 39:45Ramit Sethi?

  What general area of the country did you grow up in?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Pacific Northwest.

• 39:48Ramit Sethi?

  Both parents? Were they together?

• 39:51Speaker 01

  They were together then. They are not together now.

• 39:54Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. When did they separate?

• 39:55Speaker 01

  When I was sixteen.

• 39:56Ramit Sethi?

  Ah, how did that affect you financially speaking?

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was rough. Me and my dad lived in this woman's basement. That was quite a change going from our like brand new subdivision house to a ladies basement.

• 40:11Ramit Sethi?

  What did you feel when that happened?

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Uh, I was embarrassed. I didn't want my friends to come over. My dad also had to get rid of his car and he got this like thirty year old Toyota Camry. And I would make him drop me off like blocks from the school.

• 40:26Ramit Sethi?

  What did he say about, for example, having to get this old car?

• 40:32Speaker 01

  He didn't really say a whole lot. He had purchased a brand new car without discussing it with my mother. And when they divorced, he could no longer make the payments on it. So he just had to get any car he could afford to buy. A year later, maybe, he somehow found the funds to go buy another newish car.

• 40:50Ramit Sethi?

  What do you make of that?

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Neither of my parents are, I hate to say, good with money. They're just out there spending on what they wanna spend it on. Kind of the mentality like I worked for this, so I should get to buy what I want. And that unfortunately I have realized is similar to what I am doing.

• 41:08Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 41:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:10Ramit Sethi?

  How so?

• 41:11Speaker 01

  I'm making this money. I should be able to go to Italy for three weeks. If I see it, I like it, I want it, I bought it. That was kind of my ethos for a very, very long time. And it is something I still struggle with, but I think I've improved a lot in the past few years. I realized that one day I want to retire and I'm definitely not on the path to do that.

• 41:35Ramit Sethi?

  How are your parents doing now financially?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  My mom's gonna work until the day she dies. My dad unfortunately is now on wife number three and has lost half of his retirement with each divorce. So he's about five years away from retirement and he recently told me he only has like three hundred something thousand dollars. And I was like, oh, that's really not what I want for myself at sixty two.

• 42:01Ramit Sethi?

  When you heard that, did it cause any change in your own financial behavior specifically?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I opened that RFI immediately.

• 42:11Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:13Ramit Sethi?

  When you think back to your family and how you were brought up around money, what messages do you think that you learned and absorbed that you are bringing into this relationship?

• 42:24Speaker 01

  What comes to mind is you can't take it with you when you die and not a great deal of thought before purchasing something. If you like it and you have the money and you're banking out, just get it. It used to feel like to me that money was like literally burning a hole in my pocket. And if I got to the end of the month and I had like a hundred bucks left, I would just say, oh, well, that's not enough to save or invest. So you might as well just buy something. That is not a feeling that I have anymore, but it is a feeling that I had for a very long time and is reflected in how little is in my retirement account.

• 43:01Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, all right. Kevin, what about you? What do you remember your family saying about money when you were young?

• 43:06Speaker 02

  They talked about it quite a bit. Actually, they owned a business and so I would sometimes go, sit in the office while my mom was doing like the accounting for the business. So like, we talked about money quite a bit.

• 43:17Ramit Sethi?

  Did they teach you about investing when you were growing up?

• 43:20Speaker 02

  A little bit. I actually had a class in high school that talked about investing. So I learned a bit there and my dad would talk about the things he was investing. And usually it would be investing in mutual funds and that sort of thing.

• 43:32Ramit Sethi?

  And Kevin, you have siblings?

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, one brother, two sisters.

• 43:37Ramit Sethi?

  Does your brother also not have access to his feelings?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say.

• 43:42Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, what was that laugh?

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Oh, just knowing his brother, that's absolutely the trick. He covers all of his feelings up with jokes.

• 43:51Ramit Sethi?

  And this kind of like lack of affect, Kevin, would you agree with that way that I'm describing it? Like, it's hard to read?

• 43:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:58Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. I'm asking because Samantha made, you know, a remark that like sometimes she's very confused. Are you mad at me? Are you not? That lack of of affect. You ever see those videos where the mom did this science experiment? She put her baby down and then instead of being like, I love you, I love you. She just like stared at the baby and then the baby tries to get attention and you go, ah, oh. And then the baby gets increasingly frustrated and cries because it's very disturbing to babies to not see somebody react. Well, I wonder how much of that plays out when you're talking to somebody and you just have no idea. And this is not just somebody, it's your live in intimate partner. That could be a little confusing. What do you make of it, Kevin?

• 44:42Speaker 02

  That is definitely an issue that I could get better with. I just always like, I don't know, just be the one that doesn't make waves. I don't get up too up, too down.

• 44:52Ramit Sethi?

  Where did you grow up?

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Also the Pacific Northwest, small, smallish town.

• 44:57Ramit Sethi?

  And this has been a thing for a long time, like for your whole life, you not make waves, not too high, not too low, that kind of thing?

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:03Ramit Sethi?

  You like it?

• 45:03Speaker 02

  I mean, it's fine. I guess that's like, that's the whole, that's, there it is. There's the whole description of me right there. It's fine.

• 45:13Ramit Sethi?

  I connect with what you're saying because like Indian men are not taught about our feelings when we grow up. So like, that's why I had that wheel of emotions handy because I freaking use it. And you'll even see a lot of different cultures, like they never smile in photos. That's not just a thing. There, there's something much deeper and cultural to it. And now that I've like spent the last freaking 20 years trying to get more in touch and I'm still like just like a beginner, what I think is most relevant is how a partner can react to that. And I think that's kind of what I'm trying to unearth here with Samantha's reaction to what you describe as not too high, not too low.

• 45:53Ramit Sethi?

  Like if you were genuinely frustrated that Samantha is not paying the mortgage or contributing some amount. And you're just like, all right, I guess that's fine. But it actually like. You off every single month, then I bet you Samantha would sure like to know about that.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  I agree. It is hard, even when I ask, are you mad at me? And he says, no, I don't always believe that. So to have some clarification on what history feelings are either direction would be nice.

• 46:23Ramit Sethi?

  Can I give us all an opportunity to talk about our fears with money? I'll give you an example from my own life. If somebody told me that I would not be able to stay at the type of hotels that I love, I would actually be really bummed. Samantha, you have a similar fear if you could not do something with money would really bum you out.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  If I could not take an international trip every year, that would really bum me out.

• 46:50Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. Kevin?

• 46:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say international trip or like going to a nice restaurant a couple of times a year.

• 46:55Ramit Sethi?

  Great. Samantha, what is your fear of money that you have not said to Kevin, but you want to?

• 47:02Speaker 01

  I fear that the standard I will be able to maintain in retirement will not live up to your expectations and that will cause the relationship to end.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  I don't want you to feel that way. And I'm sorry if that's what my attitude has made you think. I mean, I think with us working together, I think we can have a retirement that is great for both of us. So I'm not worried about not living up to those expectations or whatever expectation that is.

• 47:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's pause right there. Let's zoom up. All of us floating above what just happened. We're looking down at the two of you. Describe the dynamics, Samantha, of what just happened in that conversation.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  I expressed my fear and Kevin apologized. And then he said it was not an issue, essentially.

• 47:56Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. How did you feel?

• 47:57Speaker 01

  It was nice to hear, but doesn't really reflect previous conversations or previous comments that have been made, nor does it align with the reality of one person retiring early.

• 48:11Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Kevin, what was your analysis as you float above the two of you?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  I think Samantha expressed a very legitimate fear and I tried to just say everything's going to be all right.

• 48:25Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Why did you do that?

• 48:27Speaker 02

  My set point is just like avoiding an uncomfortable conversation or something of that nature.

• 48:34Ramit Sethi?

  So she brings up a legitimate concern, but it feels hard. It feels uncomfortable. Like if it was a, a door, we've just opened up this heavy metal door and behind it is just like so much jumble of stuff that we're gonna have to work on for years. So your natural reaction was?

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Avoid.

• 48:54Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Close the door. It's actually gonna be fine.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:57Ramit Sethi?

  Close the door. There's nothing in there. It's good. It's good.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:00Ramit Sethi?

  Is it? Is it actually gonna be fine?

• 49:02Speaker 02

  On the path we've been on, not necessarily.

• 49:05Ramit Sethi?

  How about the path you sent me in your CSP? Tell me how it's gonna be fine.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  I think getting rid of some of that or a lot of that debt and continuing what she started to do in saving for retirement.

• 49:17Ramit Sethi?

  Will it be enough?

• 49:18Speaker 02

  The amount that's going in there now, it seems like it's, I guess I just don't know.

• 49:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's an honest answer. And I actually think that would actually be really comforting to hear. Can I give you a different example of what you might have said?

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Yes, please.

• 49:32Ramit Sethi?

  All right. You might say, gosh, I really appreciate you being open enough to share that with me. And I know that money has not been an easy thing for us to talk about and especially for you to bring up. So I know it takes a lot of courage to bring that up. And I think what you're bringing up is legit. I don't know the answer to it, but if you're open to it, I would love to try to work with you and try to see if there's a way for us to both feel really good about where we are today and where our retirement's gonna be down the road. Samantha, how would that make you feel if you had heard something like that?

• 50:08Speaker 01

  It would make me feel a lot more heard and I love the idea of we don't necessarily have all of the answers, but we're gonna work together to put a plan together.

• 50:19Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. And Kevin, what do you notice about the mock response that I gave?

• 50:24Speaker 02

  I mean, you're not trying to fix everything in the moment.

• 50:27Ramit Sethi?

  Men love to fix [BLEEP] even when they suck at it.

• 50:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 50:31Ramit Sethi?

  Just stop.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:32Ramit Sethi?

  We don't actually have to fix it. But what else?

• 50:36Speaker 02

  It was a lot more of like how we're going to work on it together, not saying like it's gonna be fine. And but like, we're going to work on it together.

• 50:43Ramit Sethi?

  I want her to be part of the team. And the thing is, Kevin, some of the stuff I said was just directly from you. You said, that's a legitimate concern. So I said that to her. Because you feel it, but you're just not saying it. And so she's not feeling heard. And I also heard you say, I don't know. Neither of you are a bad person if you don't know something. That's fine. There's a lot of stuff we all don't know. But just to say it and be like, I don't know. But if you're open to it, I'd love to be able to figure it out with you. That's a team.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:09Ramit Sethi?

  That's what we can do with money.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. All right. Out of curiosity, have either of you been to therapy?

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did go together for a long while, but it dropped off earlier this year when my like work travel schedule got very hectic.

• 51:24Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Would you be open to going again?

• 51:26Speaker 01

  Uh huh, absolutely.

• 51:27Ramit Sethi?

  Awesome. Okay, cool. Great. This, this is a great topic to discuss with the help of a therapist who can work with you long term. That's awesome. Okay, I'm excited. I'm liking what I'm hearing so far. Kevin, what about your fears with money?

• 51:41Speaker 02

  My, like, big fear with money is that it will run out. My dad was married before he married my mom. And he lost basically everything in his divorce. And as Samantha mentioned, her dad has been married and has lost a ton of money in each of his divorces. There is definitely a fear there of, and I know you can do prenups and all that, but it's like, it's very, you can lose a lot. And so I guess fear of, fear of loss.

• 52:03Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, how do you respond to that?

• 52:05Speaker 01

  I mean, I have absolutely no problems with a prenup, but I also am not a hundred percent attached to being married. I understand where his feelings come from, but I don't agree that they align with reality.

• 52:20Ramit Sethi?

  Uh, wait. Can I do a mock response here as well? I like what you said, Samantha. I might like reorder three of the things and then the fourth one, I'm just gonna take out back and never mention again. Okay, like that last thing, we didn't need to go there. Let me share another way of responding that I think would be perhaps similarly connected. Cause Kevin is making a legitimate point. There's a lot of history as to why you feel the way you do, Kevin. So I might say something like, Kevin, that really means a lot to me that you brought it up. I know that money is hard for both of us to talk about. And I know especially for you, you've mentioned you're avoided before. So just to bring that up, it takes a lot. And I also Hear what you're saying about both of our family histories.

• 53:02Ramit Sethi?

  Like, we don't have great role models for how money has been handled in relationships. And you're afraid of that? And I'm afraid too. If we get married, I'm certainly open to a prenup. I will be more than happy to discuss. But more importantly is that we find a way to be able to come together on money and talk about it regularly and find something that is fair for both of us. Would you be open to that? Kevin, if Samantha had said that, how would you have felt?

• 53:33Speaker 02

  That sort of response makes me feel more comfortable having that sort of a conversation because conflict is like I just shut down. So when it's more of a response of like taking what I said and acknowledging and taking that fear into account makes me feel heard and that I can bring those things up.

• 53:52Ramit Sethi?

  Amazing. The funniest thing is that most of us, deep down, just want to be heard. You see these like really angry comments online. It's somebody sitting alone who wants to be heard. You hear your partner like bringing up something, maybe one of the comments when he's brought up like, oh, that dinner was really expensive. They're not just bringing it up because they may not even realize why they're bringing it up, but they, deep down, want to be heard. And there's this famous phrase, when your partner says something in a whisper, treat it like it's a scream. And so when your partner is saying one of these things, you really listen. Listen, what are they really saying there? And if you're not sure, you ask them, hey, is there something there? Is it, are you, if you're nervous about money, I would love to talk about it. We can always talk about it, just like that, leaving that door open.

• 54:37Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, what did you notice about my response to Kevin?

• 54:40Speaker 01

  A lot more empathetic than mine. And repeating back shows that you're listening.

• 54:48Ramit Sethi?

  Which part did I drop?

• 54:50Speaker 01

  That it doesn't align with reality.

• 54:52Ramit Sethi?

  It's totally cool to disagree. You don't have to agree on everything, but there's also a time and a place for it. Like when someone is expressing their fears, we don't need to like verbally eviscerate them. Truthfully, it's very hard to open up to each other and to really Connect emotionally about money. So if one of you even makes the tiniest step forward, what I would really encourage you is for the other to create a very welcoming space. I'm noticing a pattern with Samantha and Kevin. Have you picked up on it? They're not direct communicators. In fact, they avoid hard conversations altogether. They don't ask direct questions. And when they do share something deeper or vulnerable, it often gets brushed aside with a vague, "it's fine."

• 55:36Ramit Sethi?

  Ignorant reassurance. They are ignorant of the actual facts, but they reassure each other. This is really just another avoidance tactic. But just now, they made a big step forward in that dynamic. Samantha named a real fear. And with some gentle coaching, Kevin didn't change the subject. He stayed in the conversation, which I found awesome. It's a small move, but very impressive. And I will point out another way that they avoid being direct is something that I noticed from Samantha. When she feels uncomfortable, she turns it into a joke. A little self-deprecating comment to soften the moment. I mean, how many people here do this when you text people? You write something, maybe some honest feedback,

• 56:20Ramit Sethi?

  and then you write LOL at the end. It's a verbal crutch that many of us lean on. But if we want to build the skill of being direct, we have to confront it. We have to change it. It's okay to be direct. You can be respectful and polite and direct. That's one of the skills that I want you to learn from this podcast. Now, remember, people don't change overnight, but the small steps that I'm seeing here are actually big moves forward. So let's keep the momentum going. I want to look at the numbers to see how these patterns show up with their finances. Samantha, can we talk about some of the numbers here? Because I I want to start maybe seeing if there's a potential plan here.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:02Ramit Sethi?

  All right, your debt, you told me that you have the car and the loan. How much is the interest rate on your student loans?

• 57:08Speaker 01

  About eight percent.

• 57:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and the car?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  One point nine nine.

• 57:13Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Okay, and how about the house? What is the interest rate on the house?

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Two point two.

• 57:19Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, two point two? That's low.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, all right, that's pretty cool. Samantha, how long until your debt is paid off?

• 57:29Speaker 01

  The car loan was a sixty month loan. The student loan debt, I'd have to start paying it first.

• 57:35Ramit Sethi?

  You're not paying it?

• 57:37Speaker 01

  I'm not. I paid on it for a year or so after I graduated, but it was accruing interest at a rate higher than the payments I could afford to make on it. So it seemed pointless. And now the minimum payments are like seven hundred and seventy eight dollars. And it just feels like I'd have to sacrifice. Like, I couldn't go on three trips a year. And I don't mind not going on three trips a year, but I don't want Kevin's lifestyle to suffer because of me. At the same time, I know it's very important to him that I pay it off. So I'm just not sure what to prioritize.

• 58:13Ramit Sethi?

  You ever talked about this?

• 58:15Speaker 01

  In about that much detail.

• 58:16Ramit Sethi?

  Should we do it right now?

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:19Ramit Sethi?

  Go ahead.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  I have seventy eight thousand dollars in student loan debt, and I'm not sure if I can start making payments on it without it negatively affecting our lifestyle.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  I totally understand that, but how much do you think you could pay? And we don't have to have three vacations a year. We could do smaller vacations or that sort of thing.

• 58:44Speaker 01

  Well, with the current student loan situation, the option is seven hundred and seventy eight dollars or no dollars. That is the minimum. I appreciate that you're willing to sacrifice some of the vacations. I have considered cutting back on like some of the house cleaning, trying to minimize some of my subscription spending, make the student loan payment more palatable and not affect us as much in our.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Lifestyle, but I haven't made a move to do so yet because I would like to look at it together and see what is reasonable for both of us to eliminate.

• 59:23Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cool. The joint stuff that you do, the vacations, the eating out, that kind of stuff. Seems like there's a lot of murky assumptions being made here. Like, we can't cut back, Kevin doesn't want to cut back. Have you all just like really openly talked about, how much does each of you care about it?

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Not entirely. I don't mind paying more for some of the vacations, especially ones I want to go to. If that money actually goes towards the debt and not towards hobbies or animals.

• 59:53Speaker 01

  Well, that feels good to hear. I definitely appreciate the generosity.

• 59:58Ramit Sethi?

  How do you feel about not getting more pets?

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  You know, that's a fair point because I didn't have plans to get any of these animals, but then I just got them. So yeah, I don't have any plans to get any pets. I do think that like I have a responsibility to the ones I have taken on to care for them properly. And I think that has been a bone of contention as well.

• 1:00:22Ramit Sethi?

  You spend about $10,000 to $15,000 a year on pets. If your pets are non-negotiable and that amount of spend is going to be what it is, then we can work around it. But there's a finite amount of money. So if I put it very plainly to you, Samantha, and I said, you can't go on the number of vacations you've been going on because you chose instead to spend money on pets. How do you feel about that?

• 1:00:44Speaker 01

  That is the bet I made and I will lie in it.

• 1:00:47Ramit Sethi?

  Kevin, how do you feel about that?

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  I'm not going to tell Samantha to get rid of any of the animals. I just don't want to get anymore. It's choices that I would not have made, but they're here now, so.

• 1:00:57Ramit Sethi?

  What would you do if you were in charge of her finances? What would you do differently?

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  I would not have gotten the animals, but that's beside the point. Outside of that, it probably makes sense that cutting down on the vacations built into that everything else bucket.

• 1:01:10Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha's guilt-free spending is at 51%. That's way, way higher than the maximum of 35% that I typically recommend. Now, you all can afford that, but that's because Samantha, you're not paying rent. So your fixed costs are artificially low. You also don't have any savings. So Samantha, what would you do?

• 1:01:31Speaker 01

  I would increase my savings and investment percentages and work on the debt and be really intentional about the vacations that we take and save for them ahead of time.

• 1:01:44Ramit Sethi?

  Would you be willing to do that?

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:46Ramit Sethi?

  Cool. Kevin, would you be willing to do that?

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it would make sense. I think previously with vacations and stuff, I was just kind of like, which this like my very selfish like thought is just like, well, my I have the money in the bank. So like, what does it matter if we put on the credit card, I'll pay it off later. But that really makes it hard for planning. It will make it a lot easier to plan and really know how much can be spent for a vacation while still paying off the debt.

• 1:02:12Ramit Sethi?

  I think that you have several layers of complexity around each other, like an onion with layers. One layer is just the way that you were raised. That's the outermost layer, the way you were both raised with money, not particularly healthy. And not a lot of guidance on some of the things that we're dealing with here. In fact, sometimes anti-guided, like if you have the money, spend it quick. The next thing is because you live together, but you are not married or have plans to get married, that adds a layer of complexity. There's just this big uncertainty. Like if you told me, we want to get married, but debt needs to be paid off first. Amazing. We can make a plan and knock that freaking thing out. No problem.

• 1:02:54Ramit Sethi?

  But it makes it just one more layer of complexity if there's just this uncertainty out here. Okay, then you have differences in income, but you also have differences in lifestyle. Like one person likes to take more vacations. The other likes to spend a ton of money on pets. And then at the center of the whole onion is that the two of you don't talk about money and you just make a lot of assumptions. So you've created and you now exist in a system where it is incredibly difficult to work against all of these things, like swimming against the ocean current. And what we see here is the predictable outcome. You two are separate. You both feel bad about money.

• 1:03:36Ramit Sethi?

  You don't feel heard, even though you're making almost $400,000 household income. It just doesn't feel good. And what's the solution? It's probably not to make more money.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think the solution is?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  I think if we had a unified goal that we could work together towards, but I don't know that there is one because. To me, in my mind, I'm like, my ultimate goal would be like, we move somewhere else where we can have this house that we both like together, but that doesn't really align with retiring early because presumably you need a paid off house to do that. Not to say that's the only ultimate goal that can exist, but it feels out of sync, I guess.

• 1:04:18Ramit Sethi?

  Have you talked about this? It seems like extremely important. Where do we want to end up?

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  Every time we go to Seattle, we're both like, we'd love to end up here. I would love to live there by the time I'm 40. I don't know that he has any intention of moving ever.

• 1:04:34Ramit Sethi?

  You would like to live there by the time you're 40?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:37Ramit Sethi?

  You are currently 36 years old.

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:04:41Ramit Sethi?

  Where on your CSP would I see evidence of you planning to move in four years?

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  You would not see that, but I still would like to.

• 1:04:50Ramit Sethi?

  Same way that Kevin just looks at Zillow stuff, but doesn't actually plan to go there is the same thing I'm hearing from you.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, fair enough.

• 1:04:57Ramit Sethi?

  It's just a dream. I don't mind dreams, but we actually have the ability to turn dreams into reality, especially with your income. Four years is not realistic. There's no way you move to a much more expensive area, even just financially speaking, it's just not possible. I actually think this is useful. To close doors on certain things is a good thing because it makes us more focused on the remaining open doors. Right now, it's like you all have kept so many doors open that you're not even tiptoeing into one. We could do, we could get married, we could not. One of us could retire early, the other might not. We could go to Seattle, but not. So we just stay stuck and paralyzed.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree with that.

• 1:05:36Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Is it uncomfortable to close doors for both of you?

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yes, like thinking about what you just said, like I almost had a visceral reaction. I was like, that's not true.

• 1:05:49Ramit Sethi?

  Right. And what about for you, Kevin?

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, closing doors is a very hard thing to do. Hadn't thought of it that way before, but that, yeah.

• 1:05:55Ramit Sethi?

  What's going through your head right now, Kevin?

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  As you get older, things get cut off and you just have to to focus in more on what you really want and not having all those open doors because there's only so much you can do.

• 1:06:07Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, and I would rather that we accept reality and then embrace the season of life we are in and plan so that the next season is even better. If I were you, I would start to practice the skill of dreaming in specific scenarios. So like, we take 10 minutes and we're just gonna go down this path and see what happens. And we're gonna go all the way to the end. And if, and then we can write it down and then we can sleep on it and tomorrow we'll do a different path. No commitments. I would say, you know what? I love you. I actually want us to get married. Doesn't have to be today, but within three years, I would like for us to be married. Okay, now watch me go down this path and then notice how you feel as I talk. Okay, I want to be married because I love you. I know I want to be with you.

• 1:06:51Ramit Sethi?

  I hear you. You're nervous about money. I'm nervous about money. We should definitely do a prenup, premarital debt, all that stuff. We'll sort it out. I would like for us to have most of our money joint and then we'll each have some individual money that we can each spend on whatever we want. I plan to work, you plan to work, our household income will be approximately this much. This is what will happen to the debt and going forward, we will plan this much percentage for retirement because we would like to retire by the age of blank. How does that strike both of you?

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Framed as a hypothetical, I like the idea of thinking about different scenarios and maybe it will help us decide which one we like the most.

• 1:07:33Ramit Sethi?

  Anybody feel any like guttural reactions where you're just like, I don't like that?

• 1:07:37Speaker 02

  No, I actually, I kind of like that instead of just thinking of like, oh, that would be cool.

• 1:07:42Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Speaker 02

  Actually pushing the, pushing the door open a little bit and walking in and seeing what it would be like.

• 1:07:47Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, that's a great metaphor. Walk in, look around. If it's a clothing store, try it on. How do we like this freaking thing? If we don't like it, we could put it back. Let's do another one real quick. In this one, I actually love the way that our relationship is set up. I do not want to get married, but I do think we probably need to make a few changes in order for us to live together. So I would like the following to happen. I would like for me to pay the debt off within X number of years. I would like for us to figure out what is more fair for our housing expense. Right now, it's unbalanced. If we need to speak to a lawyer about what other couples do as they live in the same place, but one person owns it, we should go do that.

• 1:08:31Ramit Sethi?

  I think that in the short term, we, or you, or me, won't be able to go on as many vacations. So we need to find a solution for that. Either you will have to pay more if you want to go, or we won't go to as many vacations. And the debt's going to be paid off in this many years. We should talk about retirement. One person's going to have the ability to retire at the age of blank. The other person's not going to be able to retire at that age. What does that look like? Because I don't like the idea of one of us being retired and the other is still working for like 12 more years. That just seems weird to me. Okay, let me pause. How did that strike you? Samantha first.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  I think it's important to flesh out the details of how we're going to proceed, whether or not that involves being married, because our lifestyle is dependent on the other person's money, even if they're not combined.

• 1:09:19Ramit Sethi?

  You're right about that. You can have a very rich life together, married or unmarried. Does not matter. It will be easier if you are married, but you could make it work unmarried. I think that's a really good assessment. Kevin?

• 1:09:31Speaker 02

  It really helps to think about specifics. I do tend to kind of start dreaming and not really thinking through the details. So really getting those details down so that can really see what that looks like is really helpful.

• 1:09:44Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cool. It seems to me that one of the things that we can do right now is deal with this debt. Because a lot of other things are contingent upon the debt.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:56Ramit Sethi?

  All right. So let's talk about the debt. The debt is $78,000.

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:10:02Ramit Sethi?

  So you said the minimum is 780 a month, but Samantha, you're currently paying 180 a month.

• 1:10:07Speaker 01

  No, that's, that's something else.

• 1:10:09Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, you're paying nothing?

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's deferred.

• 1:10:12Ramit Sethi?

  Oh.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Forty-five of it is a payment on Perkins loan. So I guess that is a student loan. And then back in 2022, I did my taxes wrong. So unfortunately, I am paying $137 to the IRS every month.

• 1:10:26Ramit Sethi?

  Till when?

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  It was only a total of $4,000 and I think it's down to like 3,500, but

• 1:10:33Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  I've just been paying the minimum.

• 1:10:35Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you pay the minimum?

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  I want to have the obligation met for the month and be able to spend the money on whatever else it needs to get spent on, pets or vacation or whatever.

• 1:10:48Ramit Sethi?

  Can I give you some straight talk?

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:10:50Ramit Sethi?

  Somebody who makes $150,000 doesn't talk like that.

• 1:10:54Speaker 01

  Well, this one does.

• 1:10:56Ramit Sethi?

  Hopefully not after talking to me.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:58Ramit Sethi?

  Because one of the goals I have for the people I speak to is I always want to understand where you came from. How did you grow up? What were the lessons you learned about money? What I have found is that people often can do quite well in their careers. You've done extremely well. But often their earnings increase faster than their money psychology does.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely.

• 1:11:20Ramit Sethi?

  And that's happened here. You're making tons of money, but you're paying minimums on debt. You're not even paying student loan debt right now. And more is going towards pigeons than student loans. That's actually not acceptable for somebody making $150,000.

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Well, when you phrase it like that.

• 1:11:38Ramit Sethi?

  Right now you're out of sync and I want you to elevate. Okay? So let's say if we took what you told me is $780 a month for your debt. Guess how many years to pay it off?

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Twenty.

• 1:11:50Ramit Sethi?

  No, just under fourteen years. But let's say you increased it. Let's say you paid fifteen hundred dollars a month. How long you think it would take you?

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  Six years.

• 1:12:01Ramit Sethi?

  Five point three years.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:12:03Ramit Sethi?

  To me, five point three years for where you are in life, for your age, for any ability to make future changes, like, that's not that much. What do you think? You look skeptical.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  Well, it just comes back to my fear of like, I don't want to negatively impact Kevin and have him feel like he can't do things without me. I don't mind not taking vacations for five years or taking less. But I don't want him to not. And I don't think he will go without me.

• 1:12:36Ramit Sethi?

  Didn't he say a few minutes ago, he's cool to cut the vacations down?

• 1:12:40Speaker 01

  To zero? It feels like you would have to be zero at fifteen hundred dollars a month.

• 1:12:45Ramit Sethi?

  Tell you what, why don't we find out? Kevin wants the debt paid off, right, Kevin?

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:12:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, Samantha, do you want the debt paid off?

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  I do.

• 1:12:54Ramit Sethi?

  All right, so you should theoretically be like, I want to put twenty five hundred dollars a month towards this debt. Like, why worry about the vacations and Kevin? Let him deal with that.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  You know what? Fair enough. If Kevin wants to go on vacation, Kevin can talk to me about going on vacation.

• 1:13:11Ramit Sethi?

  Bingo. Yes, that's the type of energy we need to bring. It's like, look, I have a goal. I need to make some decisions. So let me first figure out what it takes, and then we can worry about all this vacation stuff later. And if Kevin really wants to go, let him figure out some stuff. Okay, cool. So fifteen hundred bucks a month. I want to find out where would that number come from? So what I want you to do is to help me identify that. Now, look, you might end up deciding it should be thirteen hundred or eighteen hundred, but let's just say fifteen hundred for now, because five years is good.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  I'm not taking on any more like rehab and rescue cases with the animals so that spending should decrease.

• 1:13:52Ramit Sethi?

  Where on the CSP is that here 588?

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Pets, yeah.

• 1:13:56Ramit Sethi?

  That should go down?

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  It should go down.

• 1:13:59Ramit Sethi?

  Aren't your dogs getting older?

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, but eventually that'll be dead.

• 1:14:03Ramit Sethi?

  America, I didn't say it. I did not say that.

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  No, one is 15 and one is 10, so, um, you know.

• 1:14:12Ramit Sethi?

  You know what? Thank you. Thank you for making me seem like the kinder one around pets today. I never imagined that would happen with an owner of eight pets, but God bless. Now that we've talked about your dead pets, what's next?

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  I have considered cutting the housekeeping to once a month instead of twice a month.

• 1:14:31Ramit Sethi?

  Can we do something here? I find that it's hard to just like pick all these like random things and then like figure out how much and all this stuff. So you know what I do when I'm trying to make a big decision financially? I just put the freaking money in there and then I work backwards. So I'm like, hey, I need to put 1,500 bucks a month towards debt payment. All right. So let's see what happened. If we go down, naturally your guilt free spending dropped

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:57Ramit Sethi?

  to 30%. Do you see that?

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:15:00Ramit Sethi?

  You still have $2,000 a month in guilt free spending. What do you think about that?

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  We should eat out less.

• 1:15:07Ramit Sethi?

  How much should we drop that by?

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  I think we can cut it in half to 425.

• 1:15:12Ramit Sethi?

  That's for you specifically?

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  No, that's that's total, I guess.

• 1:15:16Ramit Sethi?

  All right. So let's say 200 for eating out. What else do you need per month for guilt free spending?

• 1:15:21Speaker 01

  I get my nails done.

• 1:15:23Ramit Sethi?

  How much? It's fine.

• 1:15:24Speaker 01

  It's 120.

• 1:15:25Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, 120. What else?

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  I would guess I spend between 100 and 150 on books.

• 1:15:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what else?

• 1:15:32Speaker 01

  Starbucks, probably 100.

• 1:15:34Ramit Sethi?

  Let's add a couple of 100 extra bucks for stuff you forgot. How about that?

• 1:15:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:15:38Ramit Sethi?

  Can you just guess how much all that adds up to?

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  Thousand.

• 1:15:42Ramit Sethi?

  Less, $770. What does that tell you?

• 1:15:47Speaker 01

  It's doable.

• 1:15:48Ramit Sethi?

  It's more than doable. You have over $2,000 allocated for guilt free spending. What this tells me is that so much of your spending is mindless. It's just random If we actually adopt this plan, you can accomplish a lot of stuff. You can save, you can invest, you can pay off debt rapidly. If you went full, like full optimized, you had your numbers dialed in, it was all automatic, you're gonna be more than fine. You're actually investing a lot of money every month. It's almost $2,000 a month. Did you know that?

• 1:16:22Speaker 01

  Yes, but that's recent. But I'm gonna continue to do it.

• 1:16:25Ramit Sethi?

  That's a lot. If I were you, I would feel really good about that. We can actually calculate out how much you will have. That's a lot of money to be investing, and it will probably go up over time. So why I'm saying this is I want you to not think of yourself as needing to catch up, but rather, I'm gonna make a plan that aggressively invests, aggressively pays off debt, and I'm gonna leave myself some room to have some fun. I'm gonna get my nails done. I'm gonna have some coffee. Cool, I'm gonna eat out, but I'm also gonna be hitting all those goals.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:57Ramit Sethi?

  Right?

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:16:59Ramit Sethi?

  All right, so you got $2,100 bucks left in guilt-free spending, which tells me, because all of your spending is currently $770, let's add in a little bit more. How much are you gonna spend on your next vacation?

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  $3,000? That does not include the hotel, though, because the hotels are always free, because I always have the points.

• 1:17:19Ramit Sethi?

  So you are going to spend $3,000 on the next trip?

• 1:17:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:17:24Ramit Sethi?

  That's fine. So is Kevin gonna spend $3,000 as well?

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I was thinking that was combined.

• 1:17:30Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, so $1,500 for you?

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:32Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Any reason why you all don't do it proportionally?

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  I've never brought that up. It's because I don't pay any of the mortgage. So it makes sense that I pay 50/50.

• 1:17:42Ramit Sethi?

  Why not say that and just be like, "Hey, I really appreciate you paying the mortgage." By the way, I wanted to let you know, normally proportional would probably be more fair, but I think it's right for me to pay a little bit more because I don't pay for the mortgage.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  I didn't think of it that way.

• 1:17:57Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. And did you see Kevin's reaction when I was just talking? He's loving it. That feels fairer, right, Kevin?

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:04Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. All right, cool. So you're gonna spend fifteen hundred bucks over the next year on one vacation.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:18:12Ramit Sethi?

  One twenty-five a month. See how I'm already putting money aside?

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:15Ramit Sethi?

  Boom. So this is seven hundred seventy bucks. I'll put aside another hundred and fifty. This all adds up to nine hundred twenty dollars. All the stuff we talked about with the nails and the coffee and the trip. How much money do you currently see in the conscious spending plan under guilt free spending?

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Twenty-one seventy-two.

• 1:18:30Ramit Sethi?

  So you have a thousand extra dollars per month to allocate. What do you want to do with it?

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  I think you need a long-term emergency fund.

• 1:18:39Ramit Sethi?

  I agree. Where do you want to put it? All here?

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  Maybe nine hundred in the emergency fund and a hundred for gifts because inevitably I'll spend a thousand dollars over the course of the year on gifts.

• 1:18:50Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, fine. Your CSP now says you have one thousand one hundred and seventy-two dollars for guilt free spending. The number is sixteen percent, which I actually think sounds very appropriate for somebody who has seventy-eight thousand dollars of debt at eight percent. You still need to live, but sixteen percent is about right. You've still got all the money going towards subscriptions and pets. No changes in that. You are now paying fifteen hundred bucks a month towards debt, which will reduce that debt to zero in about five years. When is your car paid off?

• 1:19:26Speaker 01

  Four years from this month.

• 1:19:28Ramit Sethi?

  So after that payment is done, that's an extra seven hundred bucks. What would you do with that money?

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  I would kind of split it between investments and savings.

• 1:19:37Ramit Sethi?

  Great answer. Love it. Perfect. And then, of course, when your debt is paid off, which is a bit down the road, but it will happen faster than you think. That is a lot of cash every single month.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Ramit Sethi?

  A lot. And you can really start to think about bigger plans, right? You're like, hey, in one of my scenarios, in five years, my debt is going to be paid off. What I'm gonna do is I'm gonna redirect seventy-five percent of that and put it in this savings account. And then after two years, I will have this much and we can use it to do that. Like, that is how we start to use our money to really create a crisp plan. Okay, loving it. Kevin, how do you feel about that plan?

• 1:20:12Speaker 02

  It's just good to see it on paper. Like, it's manageable. Like, it can be done and it's like, there's still money to do things. So, yeah, I like it a lot.

• 1:20:20Ramit Sethi?

  I agree. It's I think it's a solid plan and I think it's very achievable. It does need both of you to be aligned. And this is where I think there's some potential difficulties. So I see a couple of things that are slightly concerning to me. Kevin, read off your guilt free spending per month and hers.

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  4,084 versus 1,172.

• 1:20:42Ramit Sethi?

  One of you has $4,000 a month to do whatever you want with the other has $1,100 a month. Seems like it could be a problem.

• 1:20:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:51Ramit Sethi?

  I wouldn't be surprised if one person gets resentful when one person has four times the amount of discretionary money every single month. And you both like to travel. So what, let's just make a plan for it. Like you both like to travel. How do you want to handle it?

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  If there's a like vacation that I really want to go on, I can put significantly more towards it because obviously Samantha is putting that money into the debt, which is something that I want her to be able to do. And since I do have that extra go free spending, if I want to go on the vacation and I want Samantha to go with me, then it makes sense for me to put more towards it.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  I appreciate that offer. That's very nice. And I'm certain there will be an opportunity for me to take him up on that. I also don't mind if he goes on vacation by himself. I like to be home a little bit more than he does. So anticipating maybe one vacation together and one vacation separate, just knowing that that's going to happen and that's the plan would be helpful.

• 1:21:48Speaker 02

  No, I think that makes sense.

• 1:21:49Ramit Sethi?

  I love the specificity of that Samantha. I love that you said your concept, which is like, it's okay if he goes. And here's how I would envision it. One on his own, one with me. That's awesome. What I would love for both of you to do, I think would help move things along is for one person to just propose something. When one person proposes something, the other is usually pretty agreeable. I've found with the two of you, but the first person seems to be afraid to make that step. What you just did there was an awesome example, just like, hey, one on your own, one together. I think another way to look at it is Samantha can just say, I have $1,800 per year for a vacation. I can't wait to go on a trip with you, but anything more than that, either I can't go or I'm going to ask you to pay.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:34Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, how do you feel about that?

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  Hurts the pride a little to ask for help, but knowing that he's open to that makes it sting a little less.

• 1:22:43Ramit Sethi?

  Look, the fact is Samantha, Kevin makes more than you and he has less debt than you. And so it's not realistic for you to expect to spend the same at parity with him. That actually puts you in a bad financial situation. And Kevin, it's not fair for you to expect her to be able to spend as much as you do. She can't do that. So in my opinion, the higher earner has the responsibility of bringing up issues like this and saying, look, I love traveling with you. I don't think it's fair for me to expect you to be able to spend the same amount that I do. We're in this as a team and I don't want to financially stretch you in order for us to go to Greece.

• 1:23:28Ramit Sethi?

  That is your responsibility, Kevin, as the higher earner. How do you feel about that?

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  Totally makes sense. And I think seeing the money and seeing the CSP and seeing like where things are going. It really helps me to be like, yes, I want to go on vacation. I want Samantha to go with me, so I'll pay, you know, 80% or whatever it is. That totally makes sense.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  I feel as though, I don't even know what the word is. Like he already has the vacation money. So it just feels like one of us is doing the exercise and one of us is sort of pity doing the exercise.

• 1:24:00Ramit Sethi?

  I think what you're bringing up is actually the ultimate crux of this, which is what you wrote in your application. The idea that you feel behind, you feel that even if you had a million dollars, you will never be able to compare to what Kevin has accumulated and will accumulate. I believe you. The amount that you save and invest will never be as much as Kevin. Now what?

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  I don't have as strong of a drive to retire early, so I don't mind saving for more years. But will he ever view me as a partner in finance that he respects enough to like combine things more if my behavior exhibits that?

• 1:24:43Ramit Sethi?

  Let's hear from Kevin.

• 1:24:44Speaker 02

  What we're doing today where it's like, we have a plan and we're both working towards the same thing and we're both being thoughtful about our money. It's not about getting to a certain number, it's about having a plan. I don't see you as like not being on the same level as me or something like that. I've been lucky, I was able to sell my house for a lot more than I bought it for and that's how I paid off my student loan. So I can't fault somebody if they're not at the same level as I'm at.

• 1:25:07Ramit Sethi?

  The truth is that if the two of you keep your money separate for the rest of your lives, Kevin is going to have a lot more money than Samantha. That's just life. That's not going to change. I don't think Samantha, you're very savvy. I don't think you are saying, is there a magical way for me to somehow make like millions of dollars more than I have made so that we are quote, equal in the amount that we have in net worth, correct?

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Kevin, what is she really saying?

• 1:25:36Speaker 02

  Even if the, the numbers on the page aren't equal, that we are going through life together as equals and not as like imbalanced, I don't know.

• 1:25:46Ramit Sethi?

  You know, this is personal to me because my wife and I have had exactly this conversation. I had more money when we got married. I had been saving and investing for a long time. Can you imagine Kevin, how it feels that you might be putting aside $24,000 a year like Samantha is, but it will not equal out to what you have, Kevin?

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  I could see how that would, that would not make you feel great. It would make you feel unequal, inadequate, maybe, even if that's not how the situation really is.

• 1:26:14Ramit Sethi?

  Samantha, how does it make you feel?

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Ashamed a little bit and definitely like small and in a conversation about money, my opinion would matter less and I don't have a like right to ask to have those conversations about money and like the specifics of of his as well. Recently, that kind of came up because his workplace is like gradually reduction enforcing everybody. And I was like, should we behave as though we know you're going to get fired and maybe set aside more money? That conversation went nowhere and I was like, oh, I guess I'm not really in a position to tell somebody that they should save more money in anticipation of getting laid off

• 1:27:00Speaker 01

  when I have so little money saved myself.

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  My communication obviously can be improved because like after that conversation, I was like looking at what I should do to increase my savings rates. So I did. I appreciated you bringing that up and thinking that through.

• 1:27:16Ramit Sethi?

  You took her opinions on money and you actually changed something on your end because you valued what she had to say.

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:27:23Ramit Sethi?

  And did you tell her that?

• 1:27:25Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 1:27:26Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Ramit Sethi?

  Is it just me or like, am I the only one who wants to get credit for doing good stuff? Like, take the credit, guys. Do something good. Let them know. They love it. Tell them. Get the big hug.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  That's what I've been trying to say. Like, look what I invested today in, you know, affect. We've talked about affect a little.

• 1:27:47Ramit Sethi?

  Listen, listen, Kevin, to what she's saying. She's approaching you and she's looking for some congratulations for some acknowledgement. It is a terrible way to have to live, especially in a loving intimate relationship. So Kevin, what she is saying when she says, look, I invested in the stock market is like, please notice me. I'm actually doing something here. And for you to give a flat response is hurtful. Let me propose a different way. It doesn't mean that you are less than me because I have a bigger investment portfolio. We are a team and I want you to be knowledgeable about money. I want us to both contribute to our finances, but you're also better at other things and.

• 1:28:31Ramit Sethi?

  I want to learn from that. I want you to be the leader on some of those things. Right? You are great at those things. I can't do that alone. I could do my finances solo, but I'm not trying to do it solo. I'm trying to be with you. Kevin, do you see the type of culture that you will both have to create in your household around money, but with you probably being the primary person to drive it?

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. And I think much better acknowledgement on my part when Samantha is making an effort, which I like definitely has, especially the last couple of months has been really making an effort. And I do appreciate it. I just don't express that well.

• 1:29:08Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, you will have to.

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:10Ramit Sethi?

  You will have to because as Samantha is telling you, what you're doing is not enough.

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:14Ramit Sethi?

  And she really needs it. And I would too. Honestly, in a relationship, there's something that I'm really proud of. And I tell my wife, I don't want her to just be like, cool. Like, that would be really hard. So I think what you're asking for Samantha is very fair. I do think it's great. You've made some changes to your finances. I think even today you've been super receptive to some of the changes that we've made. What you have reached under any circumstance, financially speaking, is very impressive. Your incomes, great. To put it in the context of how you grew up with money, even more extraordinary. What's missing is the teamwork.

• 1:29:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:51Ramit Sethi?

  A teamwork that allows you two to have really candid conversations. Hey, what are we thinking? I feel a little resentful about the pets. You know, I was hoping that because I'm paying all the rent, that your debt would get paid off. And what I'm looking for is a plan. And similarly, hey, I want us to be a team. I know that we're going to have different incomes, different net worth, but I need acknowledgement of how far I've come and how I'm putting this plan into place. That's the kind of stuff that the two of you can work on and probably with the help of a therapist could really thrive. When we think about today's conversation, what stood out to each of you most?

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  Um, I think that it was with some communication, I actually can get the things from my partner that I have been looking to get, but not getting because I haven't been talking about them.

• 1:30:45Ramit Sethi?

  Love that. Kevin?

• 1:30:47Speaker 02

  Uh, honestly, just how good I feel about it and how having a better plan just makes me feel better about our finances.

• 1:30:57Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. I just did a quick calculation, Samantha, what you would have if you retired at 65 and you didn't increase any more than you're currently doing. You have a sense of how much you'd have by then?

• 1:31:09Speaker 01

  Not even a little.

• 1:31:10Ramit Sethi?

  You want to guess?

• 1:31:11Speaker 01

  Eight hundred thousand.

• 1:31:14Ramit Sethi?

  Your mind is about to be blown. So in the bank, if you just keep investing from now, $24,000 a year until you're 65, you would have $3.9 million.

• 1:31:26Speaker 01

  Nice. Love to hear it.

• 1:31:28Ramit Sethi?

  That's a lot of money.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:30Ramit Sethi?

  And I know you can even invest more over time as you pay off those loans and all that stuff. When I look at Samantha and Kevin, I see two high earners who have built an impressive financial life, at least on paper. But to truly understand what's going on, you have to look underneath the numbers. In reality, if we go beneath the big numbers, there's a lot of friction. There's two avoiders who can only avoid the way they do because of this high income. And they have carried that dynamic for years. They've embraced it. Today, for the first time, I think they started breaking it. They faced the debt. They named what matters. They finally said out loud what they've both been tiptoeing around. We don't talk about money.

• 1:32:15Ramit Sethi?

  That's not a budgeting problem. No app is going to fix that. This is a communication problem. And if they can make progress on their communication, they can start to talk more openly about the numbers and ultimately what they both really want. Now, to help them, my team connected Samantha and Kevin with our friends at Ultra Speaking, a company that helps people communicate with confidence, even in uncomfortable moments. Because if they can learn to say what they want and they can ask better questions, then they can stay in these challenging conversations even more, talking about debt and vacations and retirement. They've made real progress, but they have a long way to go.

• 1:32:57Ramit Sethi?

  So let's see what happens next when they finally start saying what they really mean. Let's check out their follow ups now.

• 1:33:04Speaker 02

  Biggest surprise, how much work we need on our communication around money. I was somewhat aware of that, but I think the discussion really brought that kind of into the front and just kind of how much work we need in that area. Biggest takeaways, some of our difficulties, I think, have really been around not defining how we want our money future to look. We have these ideas, but we never really get to the point where we bless them out enough to really understand, I guess, repercussions or feasibility. And I really liked your idea of kind of taking each of those as doors to open, explore a little bit, and then really decide that's the door that just needs to be closed. So that was really helpful and kind of looking forward to working through that.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  It's been a few weeks since we record the podcast. I have made some real changes. I cut back on streaming services, housekeeping, and I even started making homemade like pet food toppers. I was spending at least $150 on this fancy pet food topper before. So I canceled that and now I'm making it myself and it's fun and it's a fraction of the cost. I've also been funding investments and saving before my guilt free spending. And I've been making aggressive payments on my IRS debt. So I'll be ready when my student loan deferral ends. We had our first money meeting and it went surprisingly well. I was nervous, but I used to sample agenda from chat GPT and we're kind of changing that to meet our needs.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  It felt really good to sit down with Kevin and talk through things. And I'm actually really looking forward to the next one next week. So thank you again for the conversation. It gave me the push I needed and I will definitely be sending you a thank you note in six years when I pay off those student loans.

• 1:34:44Ramit Sethi?

  And here's what they had to say about their experience with Ultra Speaking.

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  It was a really great session. One of the most important things I learned out of it was just really not having to have the perfect answer in every situation. I think a lot of times I claim up because I'm searching for the absolute perfect answer to a question. When really a good answer is fine. So kind of, you know, not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, something that I think. Is applicable in a lot of different areas, not just, you know, relationship with money. So I, I found it very helpful. I think a great resource.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  Ultra speaking session yesterday with Eleanor and I was pleasantly surprised. I like that they use games to improve communication and confidence in communication. The games were challenging. They definitely put you on the spot, but they were also fun and a little bit silly. One of the biggest takeaways for me was realizing that it's not important to necessarily have the perfect answer. I also discovered I am not terrible at public speaking, but I just need to bring the same confidence I have at work to the communications I have around difficult personal topics such as money. Another valuable lesson that I gleaned from the session was to not break character.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  When I'm communicating, I have a tendency to make like a little self-deprecating comment and that doesn't really serve anybody. So I'm gonna stop doing that.