Natasha Lyonne

Natasha Lyonne is the oldest girl in the world. Amy hangs with the 'Poker Face' star and talks about being a child character actor, making 'Russian Doll' together, and the double slit experiment. Host: Amy PoehlerGuests: Ronan Farrow, Jeremy O. Harris, and Natasha LyonneExecutive Producers: Bill Simmons, Amy Poehler, and Jenna Weiss-BermanFor Paper Kite Productions: Executive producer Jenna Weiss-Berman, coordinator Sam Green, and supervising producer Joel LovellFor The Ringer: Supervising producers Juliet Litman, Sean Fennessey, and Mallory Rubin; video producers Jack Wilson, Chris Wohlers, and Aleya Zenieris; audio producer Kaya McMullen; video editor Drew van Steenbergen; and booker Kat SpillaneOriginal Music: Amy Miles Athleta.com Designed for the Power of SheOne-time use. Not combinable. Subject to change Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Amy Poehler?

  This episode is brought to you by AutoTrader. If car shopping feels like a whole thing, buying your car online on AutoTrader makes it way easier, really. Shop tons of cars online, compare prices, check financing, and trade-in options from wherever you are. Start online, test drive at the dealer, and finish wherever works for you. Your info stays with you, so there's no starting over. Plus, you're working with local dealers with real people there to help. Buy your car online on AutoTrader, really. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. I am so excited about our episode today. It is with the sweet, dreamy, and brilliantly smart Natasha Lyonne. We talk about so many things today.

• 0:44Amy Poehler?

  It is a symphony of conversation. We talk about what it was like to live in New York City as a young kid. We talk about Nora Ephron and how important she was to Natasha. We talk about making hits together and what it felt like to be part of a show that meant so much to us and to so many people. And so, it is a really interesting, funny, and deep conversation, like it always is with Natasha. And to be guided as to what I should ask, I always like to check in with people who know Natasha well, who have worked with her, who count her as family. And so, I asked two of Natasha's closest friends to join me and give me some questions

• 1:29Amy Poehler?

  to ask. And so, joining me right now via Zoom is Ronan Farrow, journalist, podcast host of the new podcast, Not a Very Good Murderer, and playwright, actor, screenwriter, and creative director of the Williamstown Theater Festival, the great Jeremy O'Harris. Ronan, Jeremy, hello. This episode is presented by Athleta. Summer is here. It's time to get outside and get active. And Athleta has just what women need to move the way they want. That's shorts for every type of run, from a casual jog on the beach to a competitive road race. There's squirts for on the court and pants for cool stretching.

• 2:12Amy Poehler?

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• 2:32Amy Poehler?

  First of all, let me start, where am I talking to you? Where are you, Jeremy, in the world?

• 2:37Speaker 01

  Oh my god, I don't want to embarrass myself. But I, so I'm trying to get a very popular actress to do a movie I'm producing. So I'm still with her at Jack's Wife's Frida with the director. And I am in the bathroom of Jack's Wife's Frida on university.

• 2:55Amy Poehler?

  Oh my, so you're in the bathroom of a restaurant trying to secure an actress for a project?

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Yes, I'm a girl boss like you, and I'm just trying to make sure all my side hustles.

• 3:05Amy Poehler?

  Very, very good. I love it. Always hustling, always moving forward, never looking back. Perfect. And then Ronan, where are you?

• 3:12Speaker 02

  I am in my home office on the Lower East Side, not trying to convince a glamorous actress of anything right now. But you know, the day is young. I could find an actress to try to persuade in some way.

• 3:25Amy Poehler?

  Yep, maybe.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  I'm gonna try to keep up here. Jeremy's a lot to keep up with.

• 3:29Amy Poehler?

  I mean, I have so many questions, and I hope, by the way, that both of you come on so I can get in depth about what you're both, I mean, you're both such interesting, brilliant people. And I guess my question is, what, you know, when you think about Natasha and you think about her in the world, a person in the world, like, how, how, how would you, how would you describe who Natasha is as a person and a friend?

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Jeremy, you want to start?

• 3:56Speaker 01

  Um, I would say she has more intellect in her left pinky than most, than most departments of major universities have. She is truly, and yet she has this great ability of making you feel like the biggest star ever, even at your lowest. So it's like wild intelligence and wild generosity combined into this sort of atomic bomb of like, the ideal friend.

• 4:23Amy Poehler?

  That's so well said. Ronan?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  My sense as kind of a broken person from a broken home in some ways myself is that that runs very deep. And you know, you know her deeply. And so I think you could ask her about that on a profound level, where she is searching for a sense of family and successfully creating it. I mean, that's, that's the main thing that I would add to this conversation. Natasha, for all the ways she's like riotously fun and eclectic in the things she does and the people she surrounds herself with, and it's a wild ride being around her, she also, she is family to those dear to her. And like, I really became more deeply close with her

• 5:08Speaker 02

  in a period of my life where I was at a low point, and she didn't even really have a way of knowing that. But I was profoundly broken and lonely. And all of a sudden, we went from being acquaintances to her being like, every night, you know, come dinnertime, Jeremy's very familiar with this. You'll get a text from her being like, what are we doing? Who are we screwing? And then it's like Natasha's wild circus, you know, is off to the races. And through that persistence, and that kind of like, lack of traditional boundaries, she's not indiscriminately that way. But when she decides like, no, this, this is a real one. And I won't give them my emotional space and time. It's such a

• 5:51Speaker 02

  gift. Because she really like, pulled me out of a moment of isolation and, and gave me a meaningful sense of family. And all of a sudden, we went from like, zero to 11, 11 being like, spending the holidays together, you know, when I was like, bringing her to meet my family, and we were going on vacations, sometimes Jeremy. It's, it is a real gift. And it's something that I've learned from. Like, if you, in our busy lives, with all these different distractions and things going on that prevent reflection and prevent deeper community sometimes, if you can do what Natasha Leon does to the people you love around you, and just like, keep at them and make it happen, I think that is actually the most meaningful way we can form community in a time when we really need it. We really

• 6:34Speaker 02

  need it individually, we really need it as a country. So Natasha's the answer to everything.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  Wait, Ronan, see, this is why it's so annoying that you went second, because you're so, like, I would have made mine better, had I known that you were going to get literally a mini.

• 6:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, screw Jeremy's superficial bullshit answer.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  The community building.

• 6:53Amy Poehler?

  Okay, what you guys seem to be to her, tell me if I'm wrong, is there's a very fraternal energy with you and Natasha. Like, do you feel like her brother, her wife, her lover, her mother? Like, if this is a family, who are you to her?

• 7:09Speaker 02

  In the many group chats, I'll give like, I'll send that clip of Oprah talking about Gayle King, where she's like, "She is the mother I never had. She is the sister everybody wants. She is the friend none of us deserve." Like, she is all of those things.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  And that's why I think she's been the ideal, like, you know, sort of like, uh, egg donor for my future sperm, which is something Ronan and I have fought over, like, who gets to take the Natasha eggs. Um, I think that, like, you know, in a society where eugenics is coming back in fashion, Natasha and I would make super babies, as would she and Ronan.

• 7:47Amy Poehler?

  Oh, that is so true. That is, that's a-

• 7:50Speaker 02

  A Jeremy Natasha baby would be gorgeous.

• 7:52Amy Poehler?

  Beautiful future world. We can all envision right now in our heads. Amazing, amazing. Also, I want to change this podcast to just Jeremy walking through the streets of New York and us falling.

• 8:03Speaker 02

  Wait, what's happening with your actress while you're strolling?

• 8:06Speaker 01

  So sorry. Um, she's outside having her cigarette with the director and I thought they were leaving.

• 8:09Amy Poehler?

  Just pan to her, just so we can see her.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, spill the tea, Jeremy. Who's she?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  I can't, until she says yes, I can't let you know.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  You've got to put a post-production coda on this episode, Amy.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  I will, I will.

• 8:20Amy Poehler?

  Okay, if we, yes, if we get her involved, please, but for right now, we're just gonna change her face into a cat and we'll, we'll reveal it if she says yes. Um, thank you both so, so much. You know, I have to say that one of the nicest things about this is the feedback I get from guests who feel very seen and loved when we ask people who love them to join. So I have no doubt that Natasha is gonna be so thrilled that we talked because, like you said, she's a connector and, um, I think she's just gonna, just, so, so I thank you and on behalf of Natasha, I thank you for, for jumping on today. I know you're both so busy. Thank you so much.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  I really love her. I hope, I hope it was helpful, did her justice in whatever small way I can, because she's important to me. She's been a real lifeline to me.

• 9:08Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, I love her too. I love her too.

• 9:11Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Amy. You're the best.

• 9:12Amy Poehler?

  Thank you so much, cuties. Hand me this necklace.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  Honey, it's so tight.

• 9:18Amy Poehler?

  It's so tight. And also, I want to put it as that's what she said.

• 9:22Speaker 03

  If you want to know anything about the history of Russian doll, the tightest vaginas in the game came together.

• 9:29Amy Poehler?

  We're with Natasha Lyonne, she's joining us now. That's right.

• 9:32Speaker 03

  You know, brief history of time. It's like Stephen Hawking says, the universe expands in contraction. And that's what you need to know about women in cinema.

• 9:41Amy Poehler?

  And nobody can get from vagina to Stephen Hawking faster than Natasha Lyonne. So Natasha Lyonne, you're here. We have known each other for quite a while now. I would say coming up on maybe 20 years in some way.

• 9:56Speaker 03

  I would say maybe coming up on 30, which is an exercise I'm not proud to have recently done with our friend, Clea DuVall. You know, Clea directs this season. Last season, she played my sister. She's my best friend. And big crush on Paula. And forever, and rightfully so. Put me in a sandwich. Everyone's married. That's not how it works, guys. Fantasy. So, but, so Clea directs this season, does a great job. No spoilers, but she does direct Method Man, who's my favorite. No offense.

• 10:30Amy Poehler?

  Fantastic.

• 10:31Speaker 03

  I mean, we have the same sense of humor.

• 10:33Amy Poehler?

  The guest list on that show is incredible. I have an image of you, a memory of you coming by UCB. And of course, I knew who you were. And I have this image of you being like, at the time, feeling like you were seeming and presenting quite shy, like gentle and shy. Like, we didn't really...

• 10:51Speaker 03

  I was stoned.

• 10:52Amy Poehler?

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:53Speaker 03

  I don't smoke pot anymore. And I was probably drunk. And I also, I haven't had a drink in 20 years.

• 10:58Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  But I'm thinking about it today.

• 11:03Amy Poehler?

  So we met, do you remember when we first met?

• 11:06Speaker 03

  So our friend, so Jake Foloness.

• 11:08Amy Poehler?

  Yes.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  So I was like 16.

• 11:10Amy Poehler?

  You were 16 then?

• 11:11Speaker 03

  I was 16 and Jake Foloness was 16.

• 11:14Amy Poehler?

  Wow.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  When I was 15, he's very popular now. Have you heard of Woody Allen? Okay, so I did this film called Everyone Says I Love You. Woody Allen was my dad, Goldie Hawn was my mother. I finally felt seen. Thanks to that onset tutor, I discovered this surrealist movement, Apocalypse Now, Heart Darkness. I mean, so many things changed through that tutor. Anyway, I was 15, left behind with a guardian. Because my mom was well. And so I lived underneath, or on the, you know, ground floor, so I guess adjacent to Curry in a Hurry, which is on 28th and Lexington. And this woman, she was a criminal attorney. Her name was Ruth.

• 11:58Speaker 03

  She worked at an office with Jake Folonastad. And I guess as criminal attorneys at law, I'm guessing it was called. And for some reason, it was like, oh, both these kids are like 15, 16. And Jake had that show on, was it MTV?

• 12:14Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, he had like an MTV show where he was like a young fan interviewing like the Beastie Boys.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, Bjork.

• 12:20Amy Poehler?

  Yep, he had really good guests. And Jake is a really sweet, tender, learned guy who like, liked, liked a lot of things and liked showing that he was enthusiastic about a lot of things and was a writer and creator at a young age.

• 12:34Speaker 03

  And so sort of the basis for Wayne's World, if you've ever seen, so Wayne's World is about these two guys. And, but he was kind of the basis of that, like, you know, a sort of a public broad, what is it?

• 12:46Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, public access.

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Public access show in his mom's bedroom as a kid. So he was sort of like this, you know, young prodigy. I was doing this movie. We were introduced. And the point is, is that Jake was a comedy, like, I was never a comedy nerd. I would say I'm still not, frankly. I just, but he was sort of my gateway drug.

• 13:06Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 03

  And so he was the one that knew about UCB. He was the one that was bringing me to SNL. And I think that I was about 16.

• 13:17Amy Poehler?

  Wow, so you were 16. Yeah, because I do remember a, a sweet and, you know, like a, yeah, a

• 13:25Amy Poehler?

  Younger, quieter version of you then. And it was, I remember you coming around with these big eyes and like observing a lot of stuff that was happening there and being very sharp and funny and everyone loving your work already and you, but you being, um, uh, like just even back then where when you're in the room, people want to head towards you like moth to flame. You have a electricity about you and you did then and I remember that.

• 13:55Speaker 03

  And you're really taking me back, like I'm pausing and taking us to McManus.

• 13:59Amy Poehler?

  I want to take a minute because I remember that. It also was like, it takes me back to a much younger time too. We were, I, we were only a few years apart, but it felt like a long, we were, we were, I don't know, I felt like an older sibling.

• 14:13Speaker 03

  Well, because to me, you felt like just this rock star, just because, first of all, I've never been a stage person, so figure I've been, you know, acting since I'm four, just turned 21, uh, 46. Uh, so at that point I had been a child actor, I'd been on Peas Playhouse.

• 14:29Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  Very famously, I was Dennis the Menace's babysitter and Dennis the Menace, okay, not that famous. Christopher Lloyd and Walter Matthau were there. Uh, didn't know who I was, uh, small part. Uh, and, you know, so I'm just saying, I always say this to like Christina Ricci or Macaulay Culkin, I'm like, yeah, but you guys were child stars. I was a child character actor.

• 14:50Amy Poehler?

  I see, yeah, that is different, you're right, that is different.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I wasn't really like exposed at that level, but emotionally, the kind of tether that we all have, or Haley Joel Isma, this season in Polka Face Peacock, so he is also a child star. There's like this unspoken way that we look at each other in the eyes and we're just like, I know that you have been alert and awake since you were four years old and so have I.

• 15:16Amy Poehler?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:17Speaker 03

  It's so specific. It's eerie.

• 15:19Amy Poehler?

  Hmm.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  Because it's like, that means I was doing the family taxes at 12 years old. I was like, you know, there's a lot that goes along with that.

• 15:29Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 15:29Speaker 03

  Of paying the bills, being alert, knowing how to like, present.

• 15:33Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 15:33Speaker 03

  To adults.

• 15:34Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, there's a big price to pay for that. And also, access that you get at an age that you may or may not be ready for.

• 15:42Speaker 03

  It's a long way of saying, by the time I'd seen you onstage doing like, ASCAT, I was in shock. Just because my life had been like, I'd done 60 commercials and I'd been for three seconds on screen and As the World Turns, you know, some episodes of Peewee's Playhouse, some weird movies I made, you know? But like, you just bounded up there. Even your show recently with Tina, it's sort of this thing that I was just like, what is this activity? Because I was not a theater person, I've never taken an acting lesson, you know what I mean? So it was like, what is this weird, like, athletic sport of confidence where it's just...

• 16:19Amy Poehler?

  So much running.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Well, it's just that, it's inside of you. Like, I think, I learned so much from you and from Fred about that. This like, abundance idea of an endless supply. Probably, I think, that you guys get from dress rehearsal at SNL, where you throw out genius ideas and just move on to the next day. Instead of lingering on something, like a diary entry, oh my god, I wrote a sentence.

• 16:43Amy Poehler?

  Yes, it's funny you say that. I do feel that, one of the things about that training is you, you can't believe that your, your good idea is your last good idea.

• 16:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:54Amy Poehler?

  And in fact, throwing it away is like, a power move to remind you that the next good idea is right behind it. You cannot get too precious about anything. And you get athletic in terms of like, practicing coming up with an idea. Because I'm at a point now, I don't know about you, but I feel like sometimes we make the idea king. And I'm much more into people and process. I think an idea is what it is. It's, it can be shined to be this beautiful idea, it can be totally dull in the wrong hands. But an idea is not as important, a concept is not as important as people and process, for me.

• 17:30Speaker 03

  I, I hear you. Like, or so much so that in that whole exercise they do in pitch meetings of why now? Or something?

• 17:36Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  Or like, what's it about? It's kind of like, hey babe, just so you know, Amy and I could make a show right now about this pair of sunglasses. It doesn't fucking matter. And the reason why now is because whatever, where you and I are at in this moment emotionally, that we're, is, you know, saucy for us, or to use your word juicy, right? Will make this pair of sunglasses go live on that story. And, you know, it's but, it's but a prop for our kind of inner now-ness or something of what we find interesting. And it'll be filmed in either black and white, or color, or, you know, on 16, or AI genera- who gives a fuck?

• 18:19Speaker 03

  Like, it's really gonna be about where we're at emotionally. It's not actually, it's all in the execution and the human beings that you're doing it with.

• 18:27Amy Poehler?

  Yes, the humans.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  It's not actually the idea.

• 18:29Amy Poehler?

  That's right. When you talk about young Tash, can you give me a little, like, a snapshot of young Natasha in New York City, walking around? Like, what did it look like when you were seven, eight, nine, walking around? What did, what did your New York look like? Where were you?

• 18:44Speaker 03

  She's thinking of herself, and this is where I get mixed up, okay? Because I couldn't tell you if I've seen too many movies dusted, not on PCP, on dust. Have you guys ever just tried? Raw dust? You go to the film forum, you just put your fingers along the side of the seat, and you just wave it gently in your periphery.

• 19:05Amy Poehler?

  Just dust, New York dust.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  Oh, man, that's just New York pure dust. It's not even, it's not even a, have you guys ever snorted ether? It's crazy. So, anyway, I couldn't tell you.

• 19:17Amy Poehler?

  Okay.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  If it was De Niro in Taxi Driver, or it was me in Times Square as a seven-year-old, is what I'm trying to say, Amy Poehler.

• 19:26Amy Poehler?

  I want it, but I do, I have a.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  But I remember being left behind at various castings. In my mind, there's this alcoholic figure, let's call him Dad. Uh, and I, I'm there, I'm at an audition, or like, you know, I was a child model, that's probably why I posed so well now.

• 19:44Amy Poehler?

  Wow, there we get to it.

• 19:45Speaker 03

  I was a Ford model.

• 19:47Amy Poehler?

  There we, okay, that's it.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  Later I moved to close-ups. Um, I remember him, casting rooms in Midtown, also my mother.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  Paul Rubens, so lovingly said to me when he took me to a steak dinner in the valley after rehab.

• 20:04Speaker 03

  He said to me, "Oh Natasha, don't worry about it. I was never shocked when things went south. You're gonna be okay." But it was inevitable. You gotta remember, I met your mother." So, it was a real comfort for me. There was a witness to that time in my life. The only other one I really have is, I guess I have Gabby Hoffman and Natalie Portman and Lucas Hoss. Because they were also in that Woody Allen movie, where already I had a guardian.

• 20:29Amy Poehler?

  Right.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  And, by the way, my mom is awesome and so is my dad. Like, they're really like, brainy, wonderful people. I would just say that the big discovery of modern times is we have treated versus untreated mental health, addiction, whatever. Like now, that's the revelation. It's like, there's no shame in whatever your mental health or, you know, addiction or whatever else. It's about, you know, are you treated or untreated? Like, are you experiencing a cycle of shame where you refuse to get help for it? Or are you doing your best, you know, in the day you're in, one day at a time to kind of address it? I just think they didn't know. Like, honestly, I think it was the 80s, there was a lot of cocaine around. And I just think that was the best they could do. You know, I forgive them for it.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  Cut to the end of the story, I do recall a lot of me in midtown. Sort of like, I'd go into the audition or the modeling, casting, commercial, or print. And when I came out, sort of like, where are they? You know what I mean? And sort of like, walking around midtown, and this is where I can't remember if it's me or De Niro on Taxi Driver. Because now it's such a cleaned up hood with Disney. Back then, there was a lot of...

• 21:44Amy Poehler?

  It was a lot of stuff.

• 21:46Speaker 03

  So I remember being kind of like, streetwise.

• 21:48Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 21:48Speaker 03

  Because like, if you just sort of, you had to, you know, kids, we didn't have cellphones. And we didn't even necessarily know how to use a Yellow Pages. You just had to sort of like, know how to kind of... Sit still and have a sense of where they might reappear.

• 22:03Amy Poehler?

  Right, and be big and small at the same time.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:06Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 03

  And know how to like, there's this De Niro quote that I read about getting recognized in New York. He's like, I'm a professional. If I want to get recognized and I need a seat at a restaurant, I just, you know, put on my De Niro face, throw my shoulders back, and I'm a famous guy. And if I want to walk through Manhattan and have some peace of mind, I just disappear into myself and I become part of the wall, you know?

• 22:27Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  So for some reason that really resonated with me and I think, even as a kid, I sort of learned how to do that of sort of like, I need help versus I'm in midtown Manhattan, so I need to disappear into myself.

• 22:40Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 03

  So, you know, there's no human trafficking.

• 22:42Amy Poehler?

  Yes, yes.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  Essentially.

• 22:44Amy Poehler?

  You know, so we do this thing on the show where we talk to people before our guest comes, who may know them or like be fans of theirs or have some, you know, experience being in their lives to kind of like talk well behind their back. And they also give me questions. They think I should ask you. So, um, we spoke to Ronan and Jeremy just about an hour ago.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 23:10Amy Poehler?

  About you.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  Uh oh.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  Did they tell you that I tried to get semen from both of them because I had a fantasy about having 13 children?

• 23:19Amy Poehler?

  They're fighting over your eggs currently.

• 23:21Speaker 03

  Yes, I know.

• 23:21Amy Poehler?

  Congrats, by the way.

• 23:23Speaker 03

  By the way.

• 23:24Amy Poehler?

  But wait, so Ronan and Jeremy,

• 23:27Amy Poehler?

  of cour- they dearly, dearly love you, as do I. And we talked a lot about how you have this way in which you,

• 23:39Amy Poehler?

  bring people together, right? You really want to create a group, a family, in the way you bring people together and You know, Ronan wanted me to ask you, which is, like, do you, like, do you feel that way? Like, you're collecting family when you bring people into your life?

• 24:02Speaker 03

  Uh, so just to say, like, yeah, because I have this, uh, wacky family of origin story, where, like, I mean, yeah, just, you know, the facts are, they just simply don't exist. You know what I mean? Like, I, uh, they exist in my mind's eye, uh, harrowing degrees. Uh, you and I made a whole show about it.

• 24:23Amy Poehler?

  Um.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Jeremy and I recently finished a script, Jeremy O. Harris, uh, and I recently, uh, he's a very, uh, the most Tony-nominated playwright.

• 24:35Amy Poehler?

  Incredible.

• 24:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, uh, anyway, we just finished something, and I was like, holy shit, fiction. You know, we, and I was, I, I, because you and I have spent so much time, sort of, and I, I've spent so much time doing self-referential bits, uh.

• 24:50Amy Poehler?

  What did that feel like, to write some story, a fictional story?

• 24:54Speaker 03

  It was incredible. Like, when I sent it out to, you know, when I sent the email out, I was, like, sitting at home, and I was texting Chloe, and, uh, it was, like, four in the morning, so she was up with, uh, Vanya, you know, in New York, at, uh, 7:00 a.m. for her. Me, I was in the middle of the night, my hands were cramped, I was, had, like, full carpal tunnel, and I, uh, you know, of course, it's a, there's a few of you guys that really changed my life. It's, like, you and Nora Ephron and, uh, Jenji Koyan and, uh, um, Cindy Holland, and, like, these, kind of, like, powerhouse women that just, sort of, like, appeared and, you know, the top of Act Two of my life, and said, "Listen, bitch, you're a writer. Uh, you know, you're a world builder, let's go." And I was like, "No, no, no."

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Uh, so Nora and I were very close, you know, I did her, uh, we'd play poker together and stuff like that. But my hands, and I looked and I was texting Chloe and I was like, I think maybe I just sort of morphed into a type of Nora because I kicked out this, you know, fiction pilot that Jeremy and I wrote together, but it was like, I was in Los Angeles alone with a dog in bed at like 4 a.m. just kind of as a showrunner person, kind of correcting typos and synthesizing and, you know, making sure it was ready to get PDFed.

• 26:13Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  And I could feel my hands and I was like, the spirit of Nora was sort of in me in that moment of a, because remember how she was like this little New York lady?

• 26:21Amy Poehler?

  Well, so I never met Nora.

• 26:22Speaker 03

  You never met her?

• 26:23Amy Poehler?

  No, what was she like?

• 26:24Speaker 03

  Oh, Amy.

• 26:25Amy Poehler?

  I know, would have loved.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  She was a real Amy Poehler.

• 26:27Amy Poehler?

  What a nice thing to say, Tash.

• 26:29Speaker 03

  I mean, Nora was like revolutionary. You know, she, I remember my first gig, Heartburn.

• 26:42Amy Poehler?

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:43Speaker 03

  I'm just a, you know, an extra, asleep on a lap, maybe Daniel goes and Mel Shupe are getting married or something. That means Mike Nichols picked me from a, it was a big deal in my house, in the Lions. And then about, maybe when I was like 30, so that was probably when I was four, when I was 30, Delia Afrin and Nora wrote this show called Love, Loss and What I Wore. And I said to them in Midtown, in one of these offices, I was like, hi, Delia, hi, Nora, I'm not really sure what the play is, I'm not a big theater guy, although I've seen Amy and Ash Cat on stage, but really I'm having some relationship problems and I feel like you guys might be able to help if that's okay. They did.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  I broke up with that guy and Nora said to me, Natasha, I know you're in Heartburn, but have you ever read it? And she handed me a copy. And I was like, holy Toledo, who is this human being?

• 27:36Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 03

  Because beyond this sort of image of sort of clean, you know, comprehensible images and jokes and a giant, like the heart and blood and guts on the page of the heartbreak and the genius.

• 27:51Amy Poehler?

  I just reread Heartburn recently a few years ago and exactly that, Tash, like Being reminded of how much Nora put herself in that story like really let us in, really let us into her at a time when those kind of characters felt paper thin. Like she was like a blood and guts character in that piece was so amazing to read it again.

• 28:12Speaker 03

  It was just so, so it totally like was like a tectonic plate shifting moment. And also what like, I'm somebody who's always had this weird chip on my shoulder that I need to shake, it's no longer serving around like being a tough guy or being bad or cursing. That's really me being, you know, I'm just nervous. I'm just, you know, an introvert, extrovert, kind of weirdo who's like making it up as I go, lifelong improviser with no training, winging it, you know what I mean? And kind of like relying on the people that I'm like, you know, are like a drowning man sees as a life preserver, like who the fuck is Amy Poehler? Like, I think that's safe, you know what I mean?

• 28:51Speaker 03

  And so for me, like, you know, Nora was God, I just, she's a giant.

• 28:56Amy Poehler?

  And she was safe, she was safe for you?

• 28:59Speaker 03

  It was also that it changed my worldview around, so like I'm a scholarship kid on the Upper East Side, like, so the family had some money, then they lost it, then by the time it's me and my mom like alone, you know, she's divorced now on the Upper East Side and I'm 10, I'm going to this private school on the Upper East Side, but we're in like the wrong side of the track, sort of, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the film called Slums, Beverly Hills, I might be in it. But in Manhattan, actually it takes place in Los Angeles, in Manhattan, you also have like on the Upper East Side, the good apartments are the ones on like Park Avenue and like within this space that's really rarefied air.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  In the fringes of it though, you have other people there. So I had this beef with Nora because I imagined her as like real Upper East Side. She retrained my mind to understand that no kid, she would be, she would say to me like, just stay in the house and call the housekeeper, smoke outside. She would remind me that her parents were screenwriters, Oscar Levant, who's extraordinary, Google, you know, he was the neighbor, like that, the, the history of.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  Complex humanity is so embedded into the DNA and the fabric of like every single individual on this earth, you know, let alone every person that presents well.

• 30:22Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  On camera or something. It really healed something, I think, to have her take me under, you know, Rosie O'Donnell would say to me back then, like, you're not, you're not the irregular sheets in the discount bin at Bed Bath & Beyond, you know what I mean? Like, not to be married to that. Tyne Daly would say to me on that production, "Don't be a part of The Walking Wounded, you know, be a foot soldier." Like, let go of the story that there's some sort of inner brokenness that you must heal, that you must be constantly apologizing for by being chaotic or taking up space or being confused, you know, you're not running on time. All this kind of stress and anxiety that manifests in these ways that people don't

• 31:06Speaker 03

  understand, like you, Nora, you know what I mean? Like, with these kind of like tethers for me of it's also okay to be sane and

• 31:17Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Successful and well.

• 31:19Amy Poehler?

  Yes, and boy, were we sane, successful, and well when we did Russian Doll, right?

• 31:26Speaker 03

  I mean, ish, you know? And I would say that we were insane in all the right ways.

• 31:31Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, I think that's a good way to say it. I mean, we did a show called Old Soul, which was kind of like a straightforward sitcom based on, loosely based on the idea that kind of what you were talking about is that at the time, you were feeling like you were surrounded by older people who were, who you were learning something from, who were kind of like surrounding you and taking care of you, and you felt like an old soul. And that was an idea that we made, a show that didn't go, but what a cast in that show. If we can just talk about it.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  You tell it.

• 32:00Amy Poehler?

  Okay, if I can remember, it was Ellen Burstyn, Richard Benjamin, Fred Willard, Rita Moreno.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Marla Gibbs.

• 32:08Amy Poehler?

  Marla Gibbs.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  And Greta Lee.

• 32:11Amy Poehler?

  Greta, the great Greta Lee.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Nikki Cat Crowell with a little cameo.

• 32:16Amy Poehler?

  Yes, and

• 32:16Speaker 03

  And Nick Thune.

• 32:17Amy Poehler?

  Nick Thune, and it was so, and I remember that experience, it was kind of like, you know, one of the many times when you're doing this job, you have a heartbreak of like,

• 32:29Amy Poehler?

  Is it gonna go? Is it going the way it's supposed to go? Are we feeling the way we're supposed to feel? But I remember you, working with you on that, was the beginning of me realizing a couple of things first, that you can do almost anything. You are able to produce and write and direct. You also are, you have this thing that the camera, the camera just loves you, Natasha. Like it, I guess when I talk about electricity that you have, the camera is like, mommy. The camera's like, there's my mommy, there's my mommy. So watching you perform was incre, was a, was a, an act, a lesson in acting. And, and then just that I wanted to do more. I wanted to work with you more again.

• 33:13Amy Poehler?

  And then we kind of cannibalized that idea a little bit, but just kept talking about the bigger ideas of, of what it's like to kind of feel like you live your life over and over again, or if you get the kind of reset, what would you do with it? And what does that feel like? And, and yeah, tell people if, what you remember about those beginning days of Russian Doll.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  To synthesize, I guess, somewhat. It's interesting that the way I remember Old Soul into Russian Doll is, okay, we knew each other for, we met each other around this ascot time, right? I sort of saw you. You were like this tiny little giant, the funniest, sexiest, like, hot little blonde number, who was just a freak, like, so fucking funny. Amy Poehler, Jesus Christ, you know? So quick and nimble and like a real, like an Olympian, like an acrobat, you know? Because it was just, we'd throw yourself around that stage and come up with new ideas all at once.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  And then, of course, SNL, all those years backstage, but just kind of not that tight. We saw each other at some premiere at MoMA. We kind of had a laugh. Next day you call me, I'm in bed watching NYPD Blue, falling in love with Dennis Franz. No, the phone's never ringing. And you say, as long as I've known, you've always been the oldest girl in the world. Shall we make a show about it? Sure. Old Soul. And then the way I remember it is when that didn't go, we were crushed.

• 34:46Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 34:46Speaker 03

  And we got into a car. And I remember, I think I was driving, the windows were rolled up, I was chain smoking, and you didn't like that. I still don't. Natasha, I know the show didn't go its really hard. But picture, picture if you will, my body. No picture. Picture for a moment. Imagine there was no network, there were no rules, there was no anything. What is the show that we would really want to make? What's the story we would really want to tell? If we left all that aside, assuming we could do anything, anywhere? And that that's how we started getting to this idea of you could go to the same party over and over again.

• 35:30Speaker 03

  You could take everybody home, thinking that something outside of self would heal you, would change you, would fix you. But no matter which iteration of this sort of exterminating angel, Benwell referenced journey you would take, or the Doug Hofstadter version would be I'm a Strange Loop, or whatever, parallel path, you would still find yourself at home with you and your unresolved stuff if you didn't really face it head on. And the real goal of Russian Doll is, you had always described it as it was the search for the littlest doll inside of you that is the truth of who you are.

• 36:12Amy Poehler?

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• 36:57Amy Poehler?

  and save $10 on your first month with promo code HANG. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking which group chat you're typing in before hitting send? Next thing you know, you've sent a scalding hot take about the restaurant to the group with the person who picked it. Yikes. Yeah, checking first is a good idea, so check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary, subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. This episode is brought to you by American Airlines.

• 37:40Amy Poehler?

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• 38:23Amy Poehler?

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• 39:07Amy Poehler?

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• 39:51Amy Poehler?

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• 39:58Amy Poehler?

  Then we do Russian Doll, big hit, what a hit.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  What a hit.

• 40:02Amy Poehler?

  What a hit.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  You remember the Emmys Day? Oh my gosh, all those nominations after all that work?

• 40:08Amy Poehler?

  So fun. I mean, I gotta tell you something, I haven't been on a, I've never been on a show that was a hit in real time. I've been in a show that was a slow, like, oh, that's, people love that. It was a slow climb and I've been in a lot of things that didn't pop and I've been in films that I felt like I added and contributed to, but didn't really feel like was truly something that felt like I was a major part of. And to be on a show that is a hit is, I recommend.

• 40:35Speaker 03

  Yo, strong recommend. It feels great. It's wild. And the idea that that was the thing that people responded to was shocking. Like, you know, yeah, American Pie was the number one movie in the world or something. It didn't feel like it was that close to the bone. It wasn't like I'm telling you about, you know, trauma and mommy issues and fucking, I don't know, being self-destructive and wanting to take yourself out in this life. And the need to move from a nihilistic lens that's placed on you. Through an epigenetic footprint, that is the roadmap of each human being that one must forgive themselves for, that may lead to sort of nihilistic, self-obsessed behavior that's self-destructive,

• 41:20Speaker 03

  transitioning into connection with another human being, who's probably a stranger through like a small act of kindness, you know, in a big city? And that that's the solution to your sort of metaphorical, dying over and over again, insanity defined, you know, making the same mistakes, thinking you're gonna have a different outcome? Shocking that that's what connected.

• 41:44Amy Poehler?

  And it was funny.

• 41:46Speaker 03

  Hard fun.

• 41:47Amy Poehler?

  I mean, that feeling too, I just have to like contextualize. That was a time, pre-COVID,

• 41:56Amy Poehler?

  when Netflix was taking, I think, big chances and real chances on full season orders and artists and being like, yeah, I like your, I like the package that you've got. I like, I like, I trust you, Amy. I trust you, Natasha. I trust you, Leslie Headlin. You're coming in with an idea. Here, like, make it and go and run with it.

• 42:19Speaker 03

  I think it was algorithmically, it was like, Leslie Headlin, was she sleeping with other people? There was something, also, like, her movies combined with Parks and Rec, combined with, I guess, Orange is the New Black, when you put it through that, at the time, sauce, yielded, this is the budget for this many episodes, it's gonna be a low-budget thing, whatever you wanna make. And it just so happened that what we wanted to make was, you know, quantum physics comedy. And so we did.

• 42:50Amy Poehler?

  Now, you, when you, you just brought up quantum physics. You're probably the only person I know who reads quantum physics, only actor I know, anyway, who reads quantum physics quite regularly.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  I'm assuming that can't be true, but I do. I am a, yeah, I do find it very relaxing. It's sort of how I quiet the mind.

• 43:12Amy Poehler?

  Mm-hmm.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  I love things I don't understand and over time,

• 43:19Speaker 03

  I've even begun to understand, you know, some,

• 43:24Speaker 03

  you know, like small concepts or something. Like a double slit experiment is very much the kind of concept behind why Charlie and Nadia, you know, die at the same time, all the time. Like, these are sort of-

• 43:37Amy Poehler?

  For the one or two people listening who don't know what the double slit experiment is, what is it?

• 43:41Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, I think it's just, uh, it's essentially the concept about what is the fabric of the universe, right? Like, are we here? You've done acid, you're Amy Poehler.

• 43:49Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 03

  Uh, you're the listeners at home. You've all done LSD or microdosing. I know what young people are into today with their mushrooms and chocolates and candy bars and gummies and whatnot. Uh, but with that little feeling that you have.

• 44:02Amy Poehler?

  Are we here?

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, or even like, what is, you know, a deep sleep REM state? What, what, what's going on, right? Like, what the hell is going on? Or when you close your eyes real tight and you open them and there's all little deep particles and stuff and it's a little bit trippy or weird.

• 44:18Amy Poehler?

  Or a real pedantic version of that is like deja vu. Sure. Just that is-

• 44:22Speaker 03

  What is deja vu?

• 44:24Amy Poehler?

  Right.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  So, a lot of people are basically after the same question, which is, what is this fabric of the universe or this sort of unseen thing that we don't, can't comprehend? Like, are we in multiple timelines? Is it, you know, AI so advanced now that it's scraped all of our data against our will that it's actually running tests and simulations on that to actually figure out in this sort of paperclip sort of experiment type of thing of, you know, endless iterations to discover which world we should be in for a positive outcome? Like, is any of it real? The bottom line is, in a day-to-day basis, it just doesn't fucking matter if any of this stuff exists or not. Because it's basically, you still gotta pay your bills.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  You still have responsibilities. You gotta show up. You gotta fucking take a shower. You know, and you gotta like, be a person. So, you can't get- So lost in space, but emotionally, for the purposes of Russian Doll, it was really about, you know, this dual timeline kind of thing, right? Then Nadia and Alan were fractured in. Or in season two, it's kind of about this sort of a quantum leaping, right? And it's Carla Raveli poses the question, why can I remember my past, but I can't remember my future? So, you know, we used it in a storytelling device as, would I be able to forgive the experience that was grandfathered into me traumatically? If I had a day to walk in their shoes and understand that, you know, my parent came by it honestly. It wasn't on purpose, that damage done.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  But all these ideas about sort of like healing and science and sort of connection, and the idea that two different individuals could exist in two different timelines, but be having a similar experience because they're tethered by something unknown that's connecting them and binding them, is still also part of this idea of what we're talking about of like, creating family and all this kind of stuff. Of even when you and I are not together because we're busy, I know you exist and it feels like, you know, thank God, you know? Something like that.

• 46:24Amy Poehler?

  You know, listening to you is like watching a symphony. Like, the way you talk is like a bunch of instruments playing together. You have the highest aptitude for talking of almost anyone I've ever met. You're very good at talking.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  Thanks, Amy. It's not my real tongue.

• 46:41Amy Poehler?

  You got a tongue transplant?

• 46:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:44Amy Poehler?

  Do you, would you ever own a robot in your house? And if you did, what would you hope it did for you?

• 46:52Speaker 03

  Let me think. So, it depends.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  I guess like, you know, the first thing that comes to mind, actually, the only thing I've been thinking about since you asked, is Root Beer, my dog. So I'm like, how is it helping Root Beer? Is it soft? Does Root Beer love it? Root Beer is now 15, which is weird.

• 47:11Amy Poehler?

  Wow.

• 47:12Speaker 03

  I'm somebody that always thinks I'm going to be like, you know, dying any second. And even Root Beer is 15.

• 47:19Amy Poehler?

  And for people who don't know, root beer is what kind of dog?

• 47:21Speaker 03

  A multi poo.

• 47:22Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 47:23Speaker 03

  A rottweiler.

• 47:24Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, a rottweiler at heart.

• 47:26Speaker 03

  That's what I tell people.

• 47:26Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, and root beer is, root beer is 15? Wow.

• 47:33Speaker 03

  It's wild.

• 47:33Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 47:34Speaker 03

  Because I'm like, she's even old for people years, let alone dog years.

• 47:38Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:40Amy Poehler?

  Do you have a sense of when you, like, a lot of your work deals with death. You're very open about thinking about it. You meditate on it a lot more than people I know. Do you have a sense of when you'll die?

• 47:52Speaker 03

  I'll later say.

• 47:53Amy Poehler?

  Oh, good. Well, then, let's get, let's finish up.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  I can't tell if it's going to be, you know, I mean, like, that's what's so weird about the existential threat of AI. A lot of this stuff really is just from, you know, all the Russian Doll deep dive research that I was doing along the way. And, you know, I'd be sending you articles in all hours of the night.

• 48:12Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  You got to see this one, you know, is it a simulation, Amy?

• 48:16Amy Poehler?

  I mean, and I'm always like, I think so. I think so.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  And there's a joke in here, right? You're a professional, where's the joke?

• 48:24Amy Poehler?

  Oh, my God. Yeah, I mean, to your point, like, that, it's like, you have to, like, get into the heaviness of it, and then, life is a dream and nothing matters. You have to constantly flip back and forth between those two things.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:37Amy Poehler?

  To get through the day.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 48:40Amy Poehler?

  What do you do, what do you do to get through the day that isn't, like, where you're using a ton of brain? Like, so I've been asking people, like, what is the thing right now in these times with everything is quite heavy? What do you do to check out, to zone out, to, like, what do you watch or listen to? What do you, what do you do?

• 48:58Speaker 03

  So, you know, I have a swimming pool, and I'm a swimmer. You've seen The Swim with Burt Lancaster. I, I swim. And also, like, you know, I do some, kind of like, meditate, like, when I wake up, I kind of...

• 49:12Amy Poehler?

  Do you meditate?

• 49:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little bit, you know, like, I've done the TM course. And, but I'll just sort of sit there and I'll kind of, like, zone out, look at the trees, watch root beer run around, you know what I mean? And then do some laps. And then, if it's a more sporty day, you know, there might be some, you know, reggae, or, you know, Brian Eno involved, depending, like, you know, on catching a vibe that way.

• 49:35Amy Poehler?

  When you're swimming, can I ask you more questions about swimming? When you're swimming, what's going through your head?

• 49:41Speaker 03

  I think a lot lately about, I'm just a big science person, I guess. So I think a lot about how weird it is that we're animals. So I think a lot about how weird it is that like, I'm like, this is so amphibian. I like, those are my thoughts when I'm, I'm like, what's going on right here? What is this move? And they call it a breaststroke and then I'll go over here and I'm thinking about Busby Berkeley. Or, you know, how back in the 90s, I used to stay at the Chateau Marmont and Anne Mira of Mira and Stiller. You know, she'd be there and she and I would do jokes where we would swim and be like, isn't LA funny? Look at us swimming like two Busby Berkeley number, you know, girls. And we would try to, try to do synchronized swimming, but it was me and Anne Mira. We didn't succeed.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  Uh, that's not captured anywhere like, and so I'll think about that while I'm, and I, it's weird. They call it a breaststroke. And so what if some people do?

• 50:29Amy Poehler?

  So what do you do to?

• 50:30Speaker 03

  They do storytelling.

• 50:31Amy Poehler?

  So, but your mind is still going there. Your mind, even when you're swimming, your mind is going. What, when does your mind?

• 50:39Speaker 03

  I would say that it's, uh, oh, probably, you know, sport fucking. Uh, so sex, uh, so I would say why I'm such a, I'm always, you know, saying, right? Like, hey guys, like, cause I think, you know, sex is a very, uh, people like to really, um, you know, consider it and give all its meaning to it. I'm a little bit more German than all that. It turns out not German at all, uh, but.

• 51:07Amy Poehler?

  But yeah, you.

• 51:08Speaker 03

  It's like, there's a, there's a physical, we are animals. It's important, sort of like medicinally to quiet the mind through a third activity that reminds us, you know, sport essentially is what I mean, you know, athletics.

• 51:24Amy Poehler?

  The double slit theory.

• 51:25Speaker 03

  The double slut theory. Uh, and so, you know, I would just say that swimming and, you know, sexing.

• 51:32Amy Poehler?

  Mm hmm, sexing.

• 51:34Speaker 03

  And.

• 51:35Amy Poehler?

  So body stuff, like body stuff is what gets you, what pulls you in. I relate, like the idea of like feeling grounded in your own body.

• 51:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, Wendy, you, but do you have it in other ways?

• 51:44Amy Poehler?

  Yeah, I, I, I relate to this feeling. Sometimes when I'm living in my head, like I need a, like pressure, like.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:51Amy Poehler?

  Physical pressure, whether it's like work, swimming, or like physical touch, something that like reminds me to get back into my body.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, like and it's also like, oh, the big one, obviously. Like, the reason that I, you know, I'm so in love with you and Fred, Maya, whatever, it's really always been about, um, laughing.

• 52:13Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 03

  That hard.

• 52:14Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  Is an outer, I'm telling, you're talking to somebody who's done every drug in the history of the world, including dust at the Film Forum. I just got New York side of the seat dust. And it's shocking.

• 52:28Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 52:28Speaker 03

  That literally like hard laughing where you will forget where you are and go to a third space. Like I'm saying, where you're just like, is this even fucking the fabric of reality? I don't even remember. I can't remember what I was pissed off about.

• 52:42Amy Poehler?

  Yes, yes, yes. I hear you. It is, um.

• 52:45Speaker 03

  Major.

• 52:46Amy Poehler?

  It's major. It's major medicine.

• 52:48Speaker 03

  Major.

• 52:48Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Sometimes I'm like, I'll laugh hard and I'm like, oh, my gosh, I thought I was depressed. I just haven't been doubled over laughing in like, you know, a week. What happened?

• 53:03Amy Poehler?

  When's the last time you've laughed really hard? What have you laughed at hard lately?

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Well, I.

• 53:08Amy Poehler?

  What are you laughing at right now? What's making you laugh?

• 53:11Speaker 03

  I had this, uh, hang recently.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Uh, Sean Lennon's a mu-, you know, musician and an old friend of mine. And he said, come meet this polymath.

• 53:23Speaker 03

  And, uh, and, uh, you know, I went home and, uh, well, I.

• 53:28Amy Poehler?

  Your voice is getting so little.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  Gentlemen, and, uh, he was there and then we kind of dissected the polymaths, the quote unquote polymaths, the theories about, uh, the universe. And we sort of were able to break them down to like a moment in time where he developed a resentment against a science program. And that that's what his sort of theory of everything was actually based on. We were doubled over laughing so hard.

• 53:55Amy Poehler?

  You, you observed something about someone in real time that you were like, yeah.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  And we were just laughing so hard because the idea that it was sort of couched and, you know, out here, we meet a lot of people that are, you, I love your, when you say, enough with the geniuses, too many geniuses.

• 54:10Amy Poehler?

  Oh, I mean, I.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  Talk about that, please.

• 54:12Amy Poehler?

  The word genius is thrown around a lot.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:14Amy Poehler?

  And it is, it's oppressive. The word genius is oppressive.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  I mean, and it's kind of like-

• 54:20Amy Poehler?

  And also, it's used primarily for men, you know. Um, I, I, I would say like maybe double up on calling women geniuses and maybe dial it back a little bit.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  But I think you also say that like enough with the geniuses, sometimes people just need to get to work. Because geniuses have like-

• 54:34Amy Poehler?

  Oh, absolutely.

• 54:34Speaker 03

  Self, kind of like, you know, obsessed concepts or whatever, and you know, like-

• 54:38Amy Poehler?

  Well, concept, yeah, concepts don't pay, you know, concepts don't pay the bills.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  They don't get pen to paper.

• 54:43Amy Poehler?

  No.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  You gotta kick out the trap, babe.

• 54:44Amy Poehler?

  That's right. And I mean, you, like, you, you can't, you can sit in your think tank forever, but, you know, like, chop, chop, you gotta make something and you gotta fail.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:54Amy Poehler?

  You gotta, you gotta get out there and try. Okay.

• 54:56Speaker 03

  Yes, ma'am.

• 54:57Amy Poehler?

  I got one more question for you.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Okay, doctor.

• 54:59Amy Poehler?

  I love you so much.

• 54:59Speaker 03

  Love you so much.

• 55:00Amy Poehler?

  I could talk to you forever. Um, but I got one more question. We should talk about Poker Face.

• 55:04Speaker 03

  What a, what a, what a gift that you're doing this, because it means that we get to hang out. I mean, I know. Really, that's like-

• 55:10Amy Poehler?

  That is my favorite thing about today, is I get to see you.

• 55:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, like, that's what's so funny about growing up and, you know, being these show people. I think that over time, we learn unless you're making something with your friends, yeah, you really don't get to see them.

• 55:23Amy Poehler?

  No, that's why I work, is so that I can see my friends.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  Also, I get a real boner in a non-weird way. I know you're a take and you're spoken for, ma'am. Uh, but, you know, I get a platonic boner when I see you on set with like your truck and what are these called? Uh, your, your buds or some shit?

• 55:42Amy Poehler?

  I call them cans.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  Oh, cans. Uh, there's a real term for them. And, you know, directing, producing, like, I love seeing, you know, and I, I love direct, I love being at the peak of those powers-

• 55:54Amy Poehler?

  I wanna talk about this.

• 55:55Speaker 03

  And watching my friends do it. I'm like, oh, this is who you are, Janix and Bravo. You know what I mean?

• 56:00Amy Poehler?

  But you directed Poker Face.

• 56:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:02Amy Poehler?

  Tell me about that experience, because it's so great. You're such, you're incredible in it. And you, what was your experience directing on that show?

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Uh-

• 56:09Amy Poehler?

  And in general, what's your experience? How much do you like it?

• 56:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I, I love directing. I know you do too.

• 56:16Amy Poehler?

  Yeah. What, what, what do you love about it?

• 56:19Speaker 03

  It just feels like I'm in my right place. Like, my feet are where they're supposed to be. And if you're asking me about, like, what quiets my mind, it is, I don't know if it's the same for you, but it is like, that's when I hear the click. So much is happening that is so in the present moment

• 56:36Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  that finally, I'm like in my body and hear the click. And they also, when you're an actor, they're kind of like, "Do you need to pee pee?"

• 56:46Speaker 03

  When you're a director, you're always just like, like, I'm in my 40s. Like, I think if I had to pee, I would, oh, now that you mention it, I'm in my 40s, I totally gotta pee. Uh, sure, thanks for reminding me. But when you're a director, nobody says you have to pee pee. And when you go pee pee, they don't say, "Are you gonna come back?" They know you're coming back. You're making the movie. And when you're at the moni-, you know, when you're an actor, you're kind of sitting there and you're like, "Why is everyone so stressed? I'm a codependent, I can feel it, I'm like an empathy guy. I can read a room." But when you're behind the monitor, you're like, "I know why we're stressed. It's because we're looking at the one-liner for tomorrow with the first A.D. And so-and-so missed their connecting flight, uh, you know, out of Austin." So it's not about that.

• 57:29Amy Poehler?

  Is it as simple as control? Because what you're talking about is, like, feeling like you gotta hand over your control to other people or be able to be in control of like how you shape your day, your project, your own experience, the time you get to go to the bathroom.

• 57:45Speaker 03

  I think that that's this weird ancillary bonus. I think that for me, what it's really about is like being this like 360, like filmmaking machine that is actually getting involved with like lenses and camera positions and angles and what's in the frame and what's not in the frame and what is the actor doing and how we need to, on the fly, change that line of dialogue to reflect that or because we're running out of light, so therefore, we're gonna reposition this whole thing. And it's like, I just feel so-

• 58:14Amy Poehler?

  In control?

• 58:15Speaker 03

  No, like, I feel like 360 activated at like, what I was like made to do-

• 58:20Amy Poehler?

  Yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 03

  as a kind of, yes, it is in control as like a conductor, but it's a conductor of like a frame. And it's also that, like, you know, I think- I hate being, I don't like being famous. I think it's wack. Like, I'm just saying, I've been a character actor for, a New York character actor for like, you know, forty years and then like famous for six. It's super fucking weird. Like, people treat you all like you're some, I'm like, I'm a, I'm a person. I'm just swinging it too. But when you're a director, you're with, what's amazing about Poker Face especially is, like, I am with the crew. Like, I know it's like, you know, me and, you know, Rob Harlow, the Dolly Grip,

• 59:00Speaker 03

  we're making the show together. Like, I fucking love that dude because the cast is all rotating. So, they're, the cast is rotating, directors are rotating, writers are rotating. So, it just feels like I'm one with the camera as I should be and really discovered that directing in Russian Doll. A real peace comes over my body where I'm like, inside of the material as an artist.

• 59:28Speaker 03

  Instead of sort of sitting outside of it, waiting for somebody to tell me, you know, this child, you did a good job or not. It's kind of like, it's very alive. Like, I start walking like Charlie Chaplin because it's so many things are happening at once and it's very funny. How do you feel when you do it?

• 59:46Amy Poehler?

  I, that's exactly, you said it beautifully, which is the idea of like, the idea of being in community in creativity. Creativity in community is what directing feels like. It feels like you're, you're, um, people are looking to you to have answers, but the answers lie within all the people making the piece. That's it.

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  And it's really fun. Like, the thing is, is that acting is so lonely. Like,

• 1:00:10Amy Poehler?

  Yes.

• 1:00:11Speaker 03

  Clea and I used to do this funny thing. She was dating a drummer. She was living at Topanga. She had like six wiener dogs, wiener dogs. But, you know, her girlfriend at the time would be in there drumming, practicing for the band. And Clea and I would sit out there with those wiener dogs in Topanga and we'd be like, so fuck, we're actors. How come we don't get to do band practice? Should we jam? Should we act? That's what's so weird about acting and writing, you know, at least in draft, not in the room. They're very lonely sports.

• 1:00:38Amy Poehler?

  That's right.

• 1:00:38Speaker 03

  But directing is a team sport.

• 1:00:41Amy Poehler?

  I cannot wait for Poker Face. I cannot wait for that new season. I love watching you act. I love watching, I love listening to your brain. I love seeing you in person. I love being around you, Tosh. I love being, I miss you too, bud. And I love being part of- The, the weather system that is you. I love being able to be, get close to you any chance I, I can.

• 1:01:06Speaker 03

  I'm always so ashamed, as if it's a series of weather reports. And like, the big event in life is to just be like, eh, you know, no waves at all.

• 1:01:16Amy Poehler?

  No waves. And also, I want you to know, I kept this necklace safe the entire time. Cause I was nervous about it being, going missing. But here it is for you.

• 1:01:24Speaker 03

  That's so crazy, cause you're a known kleptoman, ma'am.

• 1:01:28Amy Poehler?

  I didn't replace it with like fake diamonds while we were talking or anything. I would never do that.

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  That's a weird move.

• 1:01:35Amy Poehler?

  I love you, Tashi.

• 1:01:36Speaker 03

  I love you, Amy.

• 1:01:37Amy Poehler?

  Thanks for doing this. Thanks for coming.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:01:42Amy Poehler?

  Oh, man, Natasha, thank you for coming and, um, you're just the best. And, you know, Natasha talked about so many things, but she mentioned something that I wanted to just remind listeners about as we plunge into our polar plunge at the end of the show. And that is the book Heartburn by Nora Ephron. It's an incredible, deep dive, character study into the breakup of a marriage. And it also was made into a film with Meryl Streep and Jack Nicholson. I would advise reading the book and then watching the movie, but you can do it either way. But both are just these beautiful pieces of art and really honest storytelling. And, um, Heartburn, so good, still so good. Nora, so good. Thank you for everything that you gave us.

• 1:02:26Amy Poehler?

  All right. Well, thanks so much for listening to Good Hang and we'll, we'll, we'll see you soon. Bye.

• 1:02:34Amy Poehler?

  You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paperkite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Kat Spillane, Kaya McMullin, and Aleah Zanaris. For Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.

• 1:03:00Amy Poehler?

  This episode is brought to you by Sephora. Holiday gifting can be a tough gig. You're frantically searching, second guessing everything, and accidentally buying your dad eye cream he's never gonna use. Thankfully, Sephora is here to save us from ourselves. Whether you're shopping for a total beauty guru or someone whose whole routine is hand soap, Sephora has the perfect gift for everyone on your list. And if you're still lost, don't panic. Their beauty advisors can guide you to safety. This holiday season, we all Sephora. Shop gifts at Sephora and give something beautiful.

• 1:03:32Speaker 04

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