Pod Insights The Sporkful What’s A Jewish Tavern And House Of Learning? About this episode Josh Foer and Rabbi Charlie Schwartz set out to create a new kind of Jewish space, one that would be welcoming, thought-provoking, delicious, and even cool. The result is Lehrhaus — a Jewish tavern and house of learning. This week Dan visits Lehrhaus in Somerville, Massachusetts, where he takes a tour of their “magical Jewish objects,” checks out the room where they host events on everything from religious texts to the secret Jewish history of punk music, and, of course, digs into their food and drink.
Transcript 7,413 words · 11 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Dan Pashman? There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you. As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things,
0:43 Dan Pashman? I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean. Whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider.
1:10 Speaker 01 Serious XM Podcasts.
1:20 Speaker 02 So there's this neon sign here that says, "Teach your tongue to say, 'I don't know,'" which is another sort of like mantra of this place. It's actually a line from Maimonides, who I think was speaking more about like intellectual humility than anything culinary. But it's also sort of part of what this place is about. It's like, try something a little bit different. And like, whatever you thought Jewish food was, we're going to show you that it's not exactly what you were expecting.
1:48 Dan Pashman? This is the Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people.
1:58 Dan Pashman? There's an old Jewish expression, "Two Jews, three opinions." It's practically built into the fabric of Judaism that everything is worth questioning, discussing, and debating. Yeah, sure, the sacred texts are sacred, but that hasn't stopped rabbis, scholars, and families at the dinner table from commenting on the centuries of commentary. With the Jewish High Holiday starting tonight, I wanted to visit a place that perfectly encapsulates that spirit of debate. It's called Lair House in Somerville, Massachusetts, on the outskirts of Boston. Lair House combines two concepts that, according to its founders, have never been combined before. It's a Jewish tavern and a house of learning. It aims to reimagine what a Jewish space can look and feel like.
2:39 Dan Pashman? Today, I'm here to check the place out, eat some food, of course, and meet the founders. My name is Rabbi Charlie Schwartz.
2:47 Speaker 02 Josh Raffor. I'm definitely not a rabbi.
2:49 Dan Pashman? And you answered my next question, Josh. Raffor, not foyer.
2:53 Speaker 02 Who knows?
2:54 Dan Pashman? Well, I think you know, probably because it's your name. How do you say? You say Raffor?
2:59 Speaker 02 I say Raffor like the number.
3:00 Dan Pashman? Okay. Would you say four or Raffor?
3:02 Speaker 02 Honestly, I have no idea. Raffor? Four?
3:05 Dan Pashman? Just say your name one more time for me.
3:06 Speaker 02 Josh Raffor.
3:07 Dan Pashman? Raffor. All right, I got it.
3:09 Speaker 02 But you won't necessarily get the same answer from anybody else.
3:11 Dan Pashman? See what I'm saying? Josh can't even agree with himself about how to pronounce his name. "Two Jews, three opinions." Josh and Charlie are both deeply Jewish, but in different ways. First, we'll talk about Josh's upbringing. He grew up in Washington, DC.
3:26 Speaker 02 I grew up in what I think of as a very classic American Jewish household, where probably we didn't go to synagogue every week, but we mostly did Friday night dinner every Friday night, and then we would turn on the baseball game.
3:39 Dan Pashman? What about Jewish culture?
3:40 Speaker 02 I mean, it was everywhere. It permeated every aspect of my childhood. My grandmother was a Holocaust survivor and grew up in a house where there was no question of who we were or where we belonged.
3:52 Dan Pashman? Josh's mother, Esther Safran-Four, led the cultural programming at the historic Sixth Aniah synagogue in DC. And the Fours are a literary family. One of his brothers is the novelist Jonathan Safran-Four, and the other is the noted writer Franklin Four. Josh has also followed a literary path, first as a journalist, then as a co-founder of the website Atlas Obscura. After that, he co-founded a site that provides free access to digitized versions of sacred Jewish texts. It's called Sepharia, and it's become really popular, which Josh attributes to the Jewish approach to those texts.
4:24 Speaker 02 It's not actually a collection of books on a shelf. It's this living conversation across centuries, across millennia, across continents, of people arguing with reverently, disagreeing with each other, and out of that conversation around texts comes new ideas and new ways of thinking about the world.
4:43 Dan Pashman? So Josh's interest in Judaism as a religion is very much an intellectual one. Rabbi Charlie, he grew up more observant in Portland, Oregon. He went to Oberlin, where he studied philosophy and religion. And he worked in the school's Kosher Halal Koop.
4:56 Speaker 03 The Kosher Halal Koop, when I was there, is for both observant Jewish students, observant Muslim students, and anyone who wanted meat on a regular basis, because we were known for serving meat. So we got a lot of rugby players and just random folks. I was the holiday coordinator. So as holiday coordinator, I had the joy of both coordinating Passover and Iftar for Ramadan, which was a lot of fun.
5:16 Dan Pashman? And those are both holidays where there are specific rules around eating?
5:20 Speaker 03 Exactly, exactly.
5:21 Dan Pashman? What did you take from that experience in the Kosher Halal Koop?
5:25 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think a lot of what I learned is really the power of hospitality, and the power of food and tables and welcoming people in terms of opening up conversations and connections and going deeper and enabling people to really create and cement a bond.
5:41 Dan Pashman? What made you decide to become a rabbi?
5:44 Speaker 03 I really feel like it was a calling. It's something that I've always wanted to do. And I could give you intellectual reasons why, that I think the rabbinate is a powerful way to create positive change in the world, that it's a way to reach people deeply and spiritually, which is a deep necessity right now. But if I'm really honest with you, it's a deep calling in my soul, and it's something that I've always been drawn to.
6:08 Dan Pashman? Charlie was never a rabbi in a synagogue. Instead, he worked at various Jewish organizations. He ended up in Boston, where he met Josh. During the pandemic, they started thinking about Jewish experiences and spaces that would bring people together, once the world opened up again.
6:21 Speaker 02 I think we were both sort of contemplating what was missing in our own Jewish lives and in what feels like missing from the Jewish community at large, which is, you know, at this point in time, something like 70% of American Jews are just of no association with any synagogue, with any, like, they don't send their kids to Hebrew school. It's hard to find a way in sometimes. We wanted something that felt like a place that we would want to hang out in. And it's hard to walk into a synagogue. And like, then what do you do? And it's uncomfortable. And like, what am I supposed to wear? You come into a bar, everybody knows how to walk into a bar.
6:58 Dan Pashman? A lot of people do it at the beginning of jokes.
6:59 Speaker 02 It's true. Sometimes a rabbi walks into a bar.
7:02 Dan Pashman? Charlie and Josh came up with this idea of combining a restaurant and bar with a bat mitrash. That's the Hebrew term for a house of learning. But they didn't want it to be your grandma's bat mitrash. They envisioned a place where people could hear talks on everything from sacred texts to the Jewish history of punk music. A place where people would learn, not just from books, but from each other. They decided their house would be a nonprofit to emphasize that learning and community part. You sort of viewed this place as a mashup of these two different places, the Jewish tavern and the Jewish house of learning. What was it about that combination that you thought was sort of the secret sauce?
7:42 Speaker 02 It's like hospitality and just like a place that feels warm and welcoming and that you want to spend time in. And I think there's a hunger among American Jews for actual, rich, authentic Jewish education. I grew up feeling like I was maybe like short-changed in my Jewish education. The more I engaged with it and started to ask and answer questions, the more I felt like, wow, this is really interesting stuff.
8:11 Dan Pashman? Right. Most of what we get is like the Old Testament and the Holocaust.
8:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, there's a lot more than that.
8:18 Dan Pashman? Right, right. I mean, there's a lot to cover. We've been around for a minute.
8:21 Speaker 02 It's so textured and nuanced and the debates and arguments and conversations that have been going on are so relevant and vital. We wanted to create a space where that was all realized. My favorite thing to do is to sit in that seat over there with one of these drinks in my hand, with a book, watching people, all kinds of people come in for classes that are on crazy variety of eccentric and sometimes esoteric subjects and sometimes right down the middle of the road. And it just feels good. There aren't a lot of places to feel good right now as a Jew.
8:55 Dan Pashman? And I think one of the things that I know you're also going for is so much of what we are taught of Jewish history is about suffering and victimhood and horrible things happening to us. And there isn't nearly as much joy and happiness and even like fun.
9:14 Speaker 03 Yeah. And one of the things I love about Lair House is that it's also a place where non-Jews can experience those things. So like if you wanted to explain to a non-Jewish friend or family member or colleague, like, "This is Judaism. It's amazing. There's so much stuff here. It's so great." Like, where would you take them? Right? Would you take them to synagogue? Maybe. Right? Would you take them to a JCC? Maybe. Would you take them to Lair House? Definitely.
9:40 Dan Pashman? In the US, we're a lot more used to seeing Irish pubs than Jewish ones, right? But there's actually a long history of Jews running taverns. 200 years ago in Poland, Jews were prohibited from owning land and from many other professions. But Polish nobles believed a myth that Jews don't drink, so they were happy to have Jews running the taverns they owned. By some measures, 85% of taverns in Poland were run by Jews at that time. So Charlie and Josh are far from the first in that respect.
10:10 Dan Pashman? Lair House opened in 2023, and that year they made Esquire's list of the 50 best new restaurants in America. It was the first kosher restaurant ever to make the list.
10:19 Speaker 03 So let's go to the front.
10:21 Dan Pashman? Before we eat and drink, Charlie and Josh take me on a tour. There's a restaurant and bar section with a lot of wood and exposed brick, like you might expect to see at any cool place nowadays. There's a sort of hangout area with comfy chairs that has more coffee shop vibes. And then there's a room with a wall full of books and a long wooden table where the talks happen. Taken all together, it's not quite like any restaurant I've ever seen.
10:43 Speaker 03 We have a library of about 3,000 books of everything from cookbooks to graphic novels, philosophy, poetry, sacred texts. And then we have what we like to call magical Jewish objects sprinkled throughout.
10:54 Dan Pashman? One of those magical objects is a wall of Jewish texts for every occasion, where you pick a card based on your current life predicament, and it provides some kind of ancient advice.
11:02 Speaker 03 Like, you're tipsy and you're thinking about texting your ex, or you're deciding whether to attend the funeral, or it's moving day, which just happened here a couple of days ago.
11:10 Dan Pashman? Right.
11:12 Dan Pashman? Then there's a board with the look of Fenway Park's Green Monster that counts down to the next Jewish holiday. It plays off the old Jewish joke that every holiday can be summed up as, "They tried to kill us, we survived, let's eat." So Rosh Hashanah is actually one of the few where they didn't try and kill us? Right, well, that's good. That's a nice change of pace. We're still gonna eat. On the staircase down to the bathroom, there's a gumball machine that dispenses individual packets of lactate. And there's a giant black and white portrait on the wall. So Bertha Pappenheim is sort of like the patron saint of Lair House? Bertha Pappenheim was a Jewish Austrian feminist and activist, who's also famous for being Anna Oh, a patient who Freud wrote about extensively. As I said, Lair House is kosher, which presented a problem for Josh and Charlie before they could open. The
11:56 Dan Pashman? previous restaurant in that space cooked a lot of pork, and according to kosher law, you can't just take all the pork out of the kitchen and call it kosher. Any surfaces that have touched pork or any non-kosher food need to be made kosher. Does that require a special ceremony? Do you have to like, is there a special cleansing that has to take place, you guys?
12:14 Speaker 03 You just have to light everything on fire. There's just a lot of burning.
12:17 Dan Pashman? You have to bury the entire restaurant in the backyard to build a new one?
12:21 Speaker 03 It's cleaning and then there's different ways to do it. There is burning, so like getting something very hot or dipping in boiling water. So it does involve oftentimes blow torches.
12:29 Dan Pashman? Making sure the restaurant met the highest kosher standards was really important to Josh and Charlie. They wanted any Jew to be able to eat there. Now, generally kosher restaurants serve either dairy or meat, but not both. Under kosher rules, the two can't be combined. Lair House is a dairy restaurant, but they can serve fish because fish is not considered meat according to kosher law. So the place is basically pescatarian slash vegetarian. Being kosher also puts one more restriction on the restaurant. It can't be open on Fridays and Saturdays because of Shabbat, the Jewish Sabbath. That presents a business challenge for a restaurant, but they're also starting to host private Shabbat dinners that won't violate the rules of the day of rest. As we finish up our tour, I start seeing some food come out of the kitchen and I'm beckoned over to a table.
13:11 Speaker 04 You should start with this before it melts.
13:13 Dan Pashman? Is that ice cream?
13:13 Speaker 04 That is ice cream.
13:14 Dan Pashman? The guy presenting this first item is Noah Klickstein, the co-executive chef. He came to Lair House from a restaurant called Juilliard, a well-known French place just down the road. So what drew you here?
13:24 Speaker 04 Uh, Charlie and Josh. Um, the idea of a Jewish space and getting to explore what Jewish food is, separating it from food Jews eat, which I always think is really interesting.
13:38 Dan Pashman? What was your impression or understanding of Jewish food growing up?
13:41 Speaker 04 I came from a mix Sephardi Ashkenazi household, so I understood that it was more than just, uh...
13:47 Dan Pashman? Bagels and lox?
13:48 Speaker 04 Bagels and lox and cav's foot jelly, um, which I love.
13:52 Dan Pashman? Right.
13:53 Speaker 04 But I didn't really understand the full breadth of everything and understand where the different cuisines around the world influenced the Jewish food and the cultures and vice versa.
14:04 Dan Pashman? I like hearing Noah's story, but I'm also concerned that this ice cream is gonna melt more than I'd like. So we turn our attention to that and Noah explains the dish to me.
14:11 Speaker 04 It is vanilla ice cream from JP Licks with smoked omba salt, little olive oil.
14:17 Dan Pashman? So omba like spicy mango?
14:19 Speaker 04 Like the spiced mango condiment. We add, uh, make it a little smoky, dehydrated, add some salt. Um, I think there's some extra cardamom and fenugreek in there as well.
14:28 Dan Pashman? I love a cardamom dessert.
14:30 Speaker 04 Yeah, so good.
14:31 Dan Pashman? All right, good. There's three spoons. This is, now, I'm, I happen to be on a huge... Olive oil on ice cream kick, in life in general. It's JP Licks, Boston Institution.
14:41 Speaker 03 Boston Institution's ice cream.
14:42 Dan Pashman? Is it okay if I spoon some of the olive oil that's on the side back on top?
14:46 Speaker 03 Do it.
14:46 Dan Pashman? Because that's, that's what I'm looking at right there. Should we dig in here?
14:49 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:49 Dan Pashman? You gotta eat with me, I'm not gonna sit here and eat by myself.
14:51 Speaker 02 I haven't tried this one yet.
14:55 Dan Pashman? Oh, man.
14:59 Dan Pashman? That is so good.
15:00 Speaker 03 Does all the things.
15:02 Speaker 02 It is good. Charlie should say a word or two about Amla, since he fashions himself a Amla influencer online.
15:11 Speaker 03 Yeah, so, so Amla, it's this amazing sauce that Iraqi Jews brought back with them from, from their travels and living in India. Amla meaning mango and marathi. And there's that idea, it's actually the, the Sason family, uh, which is like a very prominent family of Iraqi Jews who, who developed Amla. It's this like amazing funky pickled mango condiment that goes on all sorts of things, but most notably sabich, that egg and eggplant sandwich. So when Iraqi Jews traveled to Israel after the creation of the state, they started putting it on, on sabich sandwiches and it kind of took off from there. So now they'll find it in a lot of different places. It's, it's on like the, um, national dish of Iraq and, and all sorts of other foods, but it's like really kind of locked in, in sabich sandwiches and falafel shops like throughout the Middle East and, and in Israel particular, particular.
15:56 Speaker 02 And, and Charlie's on a mission to have our culinary team put Amla on anything that can possibly tolerate it.
16:05 Dan Pashman? I believe it, in cocktails.
16:07 Speaker 03 Well, we've, we've, we've actually tried a couple of Amla cocktails and have yet to lock that one in, so that's, that's my white whale. But we actually do have a cocktail that also tells the story of, of Indian Jews. So this is the Bobazar, named after the, the Jewish neighborhood of Kolkata. And it's a, it's a riff on a painkiller that takes mango and garam masala, a little bit of nutmeg, some lime and coconut, and just turns into a delicious, delicious drink, pouring on those flavors of, of Indian Jewry.
16:31 Dan Pashman? All right, look, when the rabbi tells you to drink, you drink, right? Is that part of our tradition?
16:36 Speaker 02 A hundred percent.
16:37 Dan Pashman? We're going with it.
16:39 Speaker 02 One of the reasons it's fun to come take classes here is because you can sit around and drink while you learn.
16:44 Dan Pashman? Hmm. Oh, man. It's got a tiny bit of like pina colada vibe to it. Oh, man, that's really good. Yeah. Now, to be clear, while Jews were very involved in the tavern business in 1800s Poland, there's not a long tradition of Jewish cocktails. In fact, Josh says that their food and beverage director, Naomi Levy, has basically invented the genre. But Charlie thinks of cocktails as very Jewish because there's lots of meaning packed into one glass. He offers me another drink.
17:11 Speaker 03 This is called the Day of Rest. It's basically an Ashkenazi Shabbat table in a glass. So we take challah and soak it in bourbon. So we get this challah-washed bourbon. So it gets this kind of like nice, bready flavor to it. We mix it in with a little bit of some herbs, so traditional like roasting herbs for chicken, a little bit of lemon as well, and then we give a little red wine float on top. So like that kiddish wine, which is traditional on a Friday night.
17:36 Dan Pashman? All right, I'm gonna give it a shot.
17:40 Dan Pashman? Hmm. I love a drink with a float on top because it just looks cool.
17:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
17:44 Dan Pashman? But then it also kind of like makes, gives the drink different phases because you get most of the float in the first sip and then as you work your way down, you get new experiences. That's really good. I'm starting to understand what Charlie and Josh meant about redefining a Jewish space. When most people think of a Jewish restaurant, they think of Katz's Deli or a bagel shop. Lair House is expanding how people think about Jewish food and culture by bringing together all these varied stories of Jewish food from around the world. But while it's obviously about education as well as connection, Charlie says increasing religious observance isn't part of the mission.
18:17 Speaker 03 Jewish knowledge, yes. Jewish joy, yes. Connections between Jews and non-Jews, connection between Jews and Jews, yes. A love of Jewish life and learning, yes, but religious observance, no. We're not a proselytizing people.
18:30 Dan Pashman? Except about Ambar.
18:31 Speaker 03 Yes, yes.
18:34 Dan Pashman? You might need to change the name of this place to Rabbi Charlie's House of Ambar.
18:37 Speaker 03 No, no, no, no. It's a soft sell.
18:44 Dan Pashman? Coming up, I taste the Lair House version of one of Jews' most important contributions to British cuisine. And we talk about the event at the restaurant that Charlie says his grandparents never could have imagined. Stick around.
19:02 Speaker 05 Time to cook up some advertisements.
19:09 Dan Pashman? When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done, the odors and stains have to be tackled, and I want to feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes, and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And All Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself, it lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house, we're very happy with it, and let me tell you, family
19:50 Dan Pashman? of four, two teenagers, we do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear, All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day.
20:11 Dan Pashman? There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines, and Beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you.
20:44 Dan Pashman? As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves, I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from LL Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from LL Bean, whether it's their boots, their Scotch Plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. LL Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.
21:29 Dan Pashman? Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar, and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.
21:46 Dan Pashman? Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. Last week on the show, we tackled the greatest partisan issue of our time: Cracker Barrel's new logo. In late August, the restaurant chain unveiled a new logo, which sent the internet spiraling and even got the President of the United States weighing in. And so here, though, this was just the latest in Cracker Barrel's long history of controversy. As historian Anthony Stenotis explains, the chain was originally built on a certain type of nostalgia.
22:12 Speaker 06 It's very much reflecting the culture of the South. People migrating off the farms in the 50s and 60s. But it's also fitting in with tourists from the North who are, say, driving down to Florida. It's a way of sort of mimicking what their expectations of the South are.
22:31 Dan Pashman? What exactly were Southerners who gravitated to Cracker Barrel nostalgic for?
22:37 Speaker 06 They're nostalgic for the Jim Crow South.
22:41 Dan Pashman? We tell the whole story of Cracker Barrel, from refusing to employ gay people in the 90s to a DOJ investigation into racist treatment of customers and employees in the early 2000s. That episode's up now. Check it out. All right, back to Lair House, the Jewish tavern and house of learning near Boston, where I'm talking with founders Joshua For and Rabbi Charlie Schwartz. I've tasted the ice cream, which is the perfect amuse-bouche. I've tried two of their cocktails. It's time to get to something I can sink my teeth into. But of course, in typical Jewish fashion, that requires more discussion.
23:13 Speaker 03 We talk a lot about what makes food Jewish here, right? You heard Chef Noah say the difference between Jewish food and food Jews eat. And I would make the argument that the laws of keeping kosher in Koshered is actually one of the definitive aspects of Jewish food. Those restrictions actually create a tremendous amount of creativity in the Jewish kitchen. And that's why we get these like amazing, you know, every Jewish community has a long braised stew, basically, to serve hot on Shabbat, whether it's Hamin or Cholent, you know, or Dafina, you know, every community has these Shabbat stews. Having those restrictions, I think, gives us a bigger palette to play with in terms of like developing what it means to have Jewish food in the world.
23:53 Dan Pashman? And also, I mean, I think there's so many dishes in the Jewish lexicon that are some version of a dish that is popular in a region where Jews were for some period of time. We lived in an area where we were fairly safe for some number of generations and picked up the local cuisine, but also made changes to it to make it kosher, where it wasn't kosher, cooked by whoever the other people were in that area.
24:16 Speaker 02 And then usually something else happened, which is at some point we overstayed our welcome, got kicked out and brought whatever cuisine we had sort of inculcated ourselves with in place A to place B. And that fusion is where a lot of really interesting culinary magic happens. One of our signature dishes here is fish and chips. And you're like, what? It's like a Jewish restaurant serving fish and chips. It's like, it doesn't make sense. But it seems to be the case that fried fish was brought to England by Iberian Jews. And it was known originally as fish in the Jewish style. And I'm told that to this day, you can go into some fish and chip shops in like the
25:00 Speaker 02 East End of London and get your fish fried in matzoh meal. So we were like, we're going to claim that as a, you know, that bit of culinary history. But then because Charlie is, you know, all about omba.
25:14 Speaker 02 The team invented a malted ambah vinegar.
25:17 Dan Pashman? Oh.
25:18 Speaker 02 To go on top, which now brings in that Indian via Iraqi to Israel element.
25:23 Dan Pashman? Right. Oh, man. I can't wait to eat that. Did I mention I'm ready to eat? I can't live on ice cream and cocktails alone. At this point, more food starts coming to our table.
25:33 Speaker 03 This is our Lower East Side appetizing tower. You know, it's a riff on traditional New England seafood tower. But instead of shrimp and clams and lobster hanging off of it.
25:42 Dan Pashman? Which would not be kosher.
25:43 Speaker 03 Which would not be kosher. Delicious, I'm told, though. We have what you'd often find in an appetizing restaurant in those like kind of classic New York dairy fish restaurants. But through the lens of a global Jewish experience. So we have Arock cured belly locks. We have our vegetarian not liver. So it's like a chopped liver, but vegetarian. We have some curried herring. We have some white fish salad, pickled egg. We have labanah on the bottom, pita and everything bagel chips. And then a little bit of pickled mustard seed, which is kind of like the caviar of land.
26:18 Dan Pashman? Oh, so that's not cream cheese on the bottom? It's labanah?
26:21 Speaker 03 It's labanah, yeah.
26:22 Dan Pashman? Oh, I love that.
26:23 Speaker 03 Yeah, yeah.
26:24 Dan Pashman? I want a little bit of pita with labanah and the lox. That's what I'm going for right now. Okay, should I take? What's a good way? Should I grab a spoon?
26:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, there's a tiny spoon here.
26:33 Dan Pashman? All right. Is this one of your accepted combinations?
26:36 Speaker 03 You know, it's really choose your own adventure.
26:39 Dan Pashman? Hmm. Lox and labanah. Like, that's a thing. It's all happening.
26:43 Speaker 03 Yeah, it does all the things, right?
26:44 Dan Pashman? Mm hmm.
26:46 Speaker 03 Oh, man.
26:48 Speaker 03 It's like Jewish joy on your face right now. It's wonderful.
26:51 Dan Pashman? That's what I'm feeling. I'm feeling all the Jewish joy. Now, so far, the dishes that have come out are all ones that Josh and Charlie picked for me. But I want to choose a couple more for myself.
27:00 Speaker 02 Let's grab a menu.
27:01 Dan Pashman? So I asked them for a menu, which involves more discussion. Because this menu has more text on it than any menu I've ever seen in my life. In the center, there's a box with the options written like you'd see on any menu. But then around the perimeter, framing the food, are dense paragraphs sharing backstory and analysis of each dish. And this formatting is not by accident. This is the same way the Talmud is written. The Talmud is the oral tradition of Judaism, written down with a long-running commentary. It contains centuries of debate and discussion about all sorts of laws and rituals and the philosophy behind them. So imagine that in menu form.
27:37 Speaker 03 And so, you know, we have the Mile End poutine pulling from the Jewish neighborhood of Montreal. Not everyone knows that Mile End is the Jewish neighborhood in Montreal. So, you know, right next to it, we have the commentary explaining a little bit about the history of Mile End.
27:49 Dan Pashman? Right, and then you have your beet pastrami ruben, and you have a description of that. I gotta try the fish and chips.
27:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, alright.
27:57 Dan Pashman? Not only because there's amba involved, Charlie, but because it sounds incredible. I mean, I guess I need to try this beet pastrami ruben because that's your favorite, Josh.
28:04 Speaker 03 Sounds good. We're really maximizing the amba in this order. It's great.
28:07 Dan Pashman? Yeah. I place my order: the beet pastrami ruben, roasted carrots with amba, tahini, salsa verde, and puffed sorghum, and then fish and chips, which come with Old Bay fries. Turns out, Old Bay was invented by a German Jewish immigrant in Baltimore. I didn't know that. While I wait for the food to arrive, Charlie, Josh, and I talk some more. They're getting ready to host their third annual Oktoberfest at Lair House. The first one was in October 2023, just a few months after they opened.
28:35 Speaker 03 In the summer, I was talking to Josh and I was like, wouldn't it be fun if we did an Oktoberfest reimagined as a celebration of German Jewish life? It wouldn't be even more fun if we partnered with the German government to do it. So I cold called the consulate here, and they're wonderful, wonderful people, and they're like, yeah, let's do that. So we had all these plans to do this amazing Oktoberfest with the German consulate, and then October 7th happened, and we're like, how can we be joyous in this moment right now?
29:01 Speaker 03 And we decided to go forward with it. And the kind of intentionality that we gave to it is, and I think this is still true today, is that if I were to tell my grandparents that the Jewish tavern that I run, the Kosher Restaurant, House of Learning that I run, is partnering with the German government to celebrate German Jewish life, they would not believe me. They would say, that's a world I can't even imagine. So intentionality was that we don't know what the future is going to be in Gaza, in Israel with Palestinians, but we know that there are futures that we can't even begin to imagine right now. Because we're living in one that a generation ago we couldn't imagine. And I think we're about to do our third Oktoberfest in a couple of weeks. Where the world is right now is not where we want it to be, but we also know that there are unimaginable futures that are better than we are right now that we hope for.
29:48 Dan Pashman? We're here in Somerville, Mass, just down the road from Tufts University, where I went to college. Tufts in particular has been a hotspot for many of the issues happening on college campuses in recent years. In the days immediately after October 7th, the Tufts Chapter of Students for Justice in Palestine sent an email praising and celebrating the attacks. Tufts is also a place where a Turkish Muslim grad student was grabbed off the sidewalk and detained by ICE because of an op-ed she wrote. These are both very disturbing and upsetting to me in different ways. And, I mean, of course, perspectives on these issues vary widely even among Jews. How do you create a Jewish space that is inclusive and joyful and positive in this
30:33 Dan Pashman? current moment?
30:34 Speaker 02 With a great deal of intentionality. I think that one of the things that being a house of learning implies and carries with it in its, in the overall brand is debate, conversation, reverent disagreement. Like, at the end of the day, a conversation is always, is usually productive. And so, I think we've managed to create a space where a wide variety of people with a wide variety of views, politically, religiously, feel like they belong. And one of the things that I am disturbed by is, not just in the Jewish community, but
31:17 Speaker 02 in America, we're losing our ability to be with people who think differently than us or who are different from us. And we are aspiring in Layer House to be a place that has a big tent and that everybody feels like they belong in.
31:34 Speaker 03 Yeah, I mean, it's, uh, it's challenging and it's, you know, it's a needle that re-thread every day. And at the end of the day, like, realizing that, that our role here in Somerville and beyond is, is bringing people together, whether that's family members or people who already agree with each other or people who disagree with each other and across difference. So it takes a lot of work and it's, you know, we succeed on most days, but not every day.
31:56 Dan Pashman? I mean, I really agree with what you're saying at the end there, Josh, because I, I feel that too, like, we have to... You have to be able to spend time with people in your community, even if you don't agree on everything. You know, I live in a suburb of New York City that's very politically mixed. I have neighbors who I really disagree with on some things and our kids are on the same softball team. Am I gonna not go say hello to them on the sideline of the game because I don't like what they post on Facebook? You're like, we may not be best friends, but like, we live in the same community. Our kids go to school together. Like, we have to be able to like, say hello and just be cordial and have a basic level of respect and just talk to each other.
32:35 Speaker 02 Yeah, and, and there need to be spaces where that is normal and normalized. And I think that's one of the things that we are succeeding at here at Lair House.
32:44 Dan Pashman? I was thinking on the way here, like, on one hand, your mission probably would have been a lot easier if you had opened 10 or 15 years earlier before the current moment that we're in. On the other hand, like, maybe this is the moment that Lair House was born for.
33:02 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think that's, that's 100% true, that the moment we're in right now, and not just like, politically, just in terms of people's isolation and loneliness and need to be with each other. Uh, there's, there's like, a lot of factors coming together that I think that makes Lair House not just successful, but, but necessary in the world that we're in right now.
33:25 Dan Pashman? At this point, there has clearly been enough discussion. The entrees arrive. Should we eat?
33:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:32 Dan Pashman? Let, let's, uh, we should end the way every Jewish gathering ends, which is with the food.
33:38 Dan Pashman? All right, the fish and chips and, uh, the beet ruben are coming out. This fish and chips looks glorious. It truly, like, I, I lived in London for a little while and like, I didn't really appreciate what an art frying was until I lived in London and ate fish and chips there. All right, you guys gotta eat some of this food with me. Come on now. For this part of the meal, Naomi Levy, the food and beverage director, also joins us.
34:00 Speaker 07 This is a spoo gaoli.
34:02 Dan Pashman? Okay, right.
34:03 Speaker 07 And we recommend using the omba vinegar, just the way you would malt vinegar if you were in a...
34:08 Dan Pashman? Just sprinkle it on top.
34:08 Speaker 07 If you were in a...
34:09 Dan Pashman? All right, I'm gonna sprinkle.
34:10 Speaker 02 Oh, it's still so hot inside.
34:12 Speaker 07 It is going to be very hot.
34:13 Dan Pashman? Maybe I should give it a minute?
34:14 Speaker 07 There's a reason we all didn't just go for it. We've all been literally burnt before.
34:18 Dan Pashman? I thought you were being polite, Naomi.
34:20 Speaker 07 Uh, no, no. You're at a table with a bunch of Jews, all right? That's not...
34:24 Dan Pashman? So should I have the beet ruben first, then should I let this cool a little more?
34:27 Speaker 07 Probably, yeah.
34:28 Dan Pashman? All right.
34:30 Dan Pashman? Mmm.
34:32 Dan Pashman? That's really good. You were right, Josh. All right, I think I'm ready to go in for a bit of fish and chips here.
34:41 Dan Pashman? I mean, this is amazing. I love that it's a giant piece of fish and it really tastes like fish. Also, it's making me realize that like fish and chips should have more acid. It should be more tangy. That's exactly what you need to cut through the...
34:53 Speaker 03 That's what the ombre and the spook does, right? It's doing the work for you.
34:58 Dan Pashman? All right, Josh, take a bite here. You look like you're eyeing this fish.
35:03 Dan Pashman? Everything is so good. There's still a lot of food in front of us. I think this is the part of the tape where I turn off my microphone if my recorder away. So that I can focus on eating. Will you guys hang out and eat a little more with me?
35:14 Speaker 03 Yeah.
35:15 Dan Pashman? All right, let's do it.
35:27 Dan Pashman? That's Josh For and Rabbi Charlie Schwartz, co-founders of Lair House in Somerville, Massachusetts. Lair House is open Sunday through Thursday. You can get more info at lair.house. We'll put that link in the episode notes. And one quick addition, Charlie tells us they're hoping to open more Lair House locations around the country. The next one will probably be in DC, so look out for more info on that soon. Finally, I just want to say there really is a warmth and energy that you feel when you walk into this place that's really special. So I hope you'll check it out. And to everyone celebrating in Russia, Shana, Happy New Year!
36:00 Dan Pashman? Next week on the show, I visited McDonald's in an old mansion. Then we do a deep dive into the history of McDonald's and what it can tell us about Black America. And also, I want to tell you about the episode we're reheating this Friday. It's about a group of seniors who celebrate Shabbat every week at Wendy's. Make sure you subscribe, or follow, or like our podcast, whatever the thing is in your podcasting app. Make sure you do that, so you get all of our episodes. Finally, while you wait for all that good stuff, check out last week's show about the recent Cracker Barrel logo controversy, which it turns out is just the latest in a long history of controversies for the chain. And hey, did you know you can listen to The Sporkful on the SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting
36:45 Dan Pashman? app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful. This episode was produced by me along with managing producer- Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer- Andres O'Hara. It was edited by- Camille Stanley. Our engineer is- Jared O'Connell. Special thanks to Cody Fisher. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of SiriusXM Podcasts. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.
37:20 Speaker 08 And I'm Liz Wing from Somerville, Massachusetts, reminding you to eat more, eat better, and eat more better.
37:39 Speaker 09 Fidelity Active ETFs have the flexibility to shift and transform as markets do the same. So instead of just riding an index, they can seek to outperform it by adapting to market conditions and pursuing new opportunities as they emerge. And while you get the potential outperformance of an actively managed fund, you can still buy and sell it on your terms, just like any other ETF. Markets can change in real time. Make sure your ETF can too. Learn more at fidelity.com/activeetfs. Before investing in any exchange traded fund, you should consider its investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses. Contact Fidelity for a prospectus, an offering circular, or if available, a summary prospectus containing this information. Read it carefully.
38:23 Speaker 09 While Active ETFs offer the potential to outperform an index, these products may more significantly trail an index as compared with passive ETFs. ETFs are subject to market fluctuation and the risks of their underlying investments. ETFs are subject to management fees and other expenses. Fidelity Brokerage Services, LLC, member NYSE, SIPC.
38:39 Speaker 10 Time for a quick break to talk about McDonald's. It's the tangiest time of the year. For a limited time, head to McDonald's and get a McRib sandwich. Make it a meal by adding a medium fries and a soft drink like an ice cold Diet Dr. Pepper. So grab a McRib sandwich and embrace the tang. Save time by ordering ahead on the app. At participating McDonald's for a limited time. Dr. Pepper is a registered trademark of Dr. Pepper 7-Up Inc.
Previous Is The Future Of Bourbon Female? (Reheat) Next Celebrating Shabbat At Wendy’s (Reheat) Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated