189: Adaptability Is The Law That Governs Survival in War and In Life. USMC TACTICS PT.3 w/ Dave Berke.

0:00:00 - Opening 0:04:03 - MCDP 1-3: Tactics 1:37:34 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:38:39 - Support: How to stay on THE PATH. 2:03:26 - Closing Gratitude. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 189 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:06Dave Berke?

  Good evening.

• 0:07Jocko Willink?

  And joining us once again is Dave Berke. Good evening, Dave. Good evening. And on the last two podcasts, Dave and I dug into the first four chapters of the Marine Corps doctrinal publications, MCDP, one tac three tactics. So if you haven't listened to those podcasts, go start there. And if you have listened to them, then we are diving into chapter five. You and I were talking over the weekend about how you read these in the basic school versus how you read them now, or how you read it this time around.

• 0:51Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 0:52Jocko Willink?

  There's a pretty big difference.

• 0:55Dave Berke?

  Yeah, there's a huge difference. I was saying, when you asked about had I read these, and I read them, we got handed to them in a stack of pubs, so all the Marine Corps manuals, probably a foot high stack of these white books, those little booklets. And at the time, it was a chore. It was like something I had to do to pass a test. I didn't look for any real content. I was looking for the answers of the test, and that was about it. It wasn't until I went back and looked at them again with a totally different set of eyes and how, man, so many things I could have learned if I actually read it differently the first time.

• 1:27Jocko Willink?

  There's, I mean, I think it has to do, when you can overlay your own experience on it, is what makes it more, makes the lessons more obvious. But these books are written so clearly.

• 1:42Dave Berke?

  They're so straightforward.

• 1:43Jocko Willink?

  They're so straightforward, so clear. And, and it's, it's, it's amazing that the Marine Corps can pull this off because normally you would think to yourself, okay, if I told you, okay, Dave, you, me, and eight of our friends are going to write a book by committee, it would be a total nightmare.

• 1:59Dave Berke?

  Yep.

• 2:00Jocko Willink?

  It would not come out good. It would be the most convoluted and confusing thing ever, and it would be a total disaster. The Marine Corps, somehow, I would love to go in, I would love to see how they did this. I would love to see how they did this because. What I imagine had to have happened, there was one single human that had a good grip on the vision and said, okay, and everyone else, this is the most important part, everyone else kind of respected that vision and respected that person.

• 2:31Dave Berke?

  Yep.

• 2:32Jocko Willink?

  I don't even know who that person was. They had to, to, to, to pull this off in the Marine Corps, they had to be someone, for lack of a better word, they had to be someone legit to be in there and say, okay, listen, you know, we're, we're, we're leaving out that section and not have everyone up in arms and big debates.

• 2:51Dave Berke?

  Yeah. And you couldn't have a bunch of guys that wanted to put their little spin on it to make it their own thing. They wanted it and in all eight chapters, I guess there's a tiny little bit of nuance and some of them may be a little bit different, but it, it almost as if the same person, I know it's not one guy, but it's at the same thing all the way through the same theme. And there's not one chapter in there that is, oh, this is too complex. So this doesn't really get to the point. They're all, they're all the same. And what you described, I've been in some of those meetings, not, not to write a publication, everything's done by committee. You get, you get five guys in a room and you do this and somebody defers to somebody else, but there's a vision on this from the first word to the last word that is throughout. And it requires actually people recognizing, hey, that guy's ideas, that's what we're doing. And everybody gets, gets around and behind that.

• 3:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So not only, not only is it amazing, the amount of intelligence and knowledge that was in the room, but the amount of humility for someone to listen to someone else say, hey, I just wrote this part. I just wrote these three sentences. And for someone else to sit in the back of the room and go, you know what? Those are good. Leave them how they are. There's a massive amount of humility in, in writing this thing and putting this thing together. So let's go back to the book, chapter five. Chapter five is called adapting.

• 4:13Jocko Willink?

  Starts off with a cou- a couple quotes. Victory smiles upon those who anticipate the changes in the character of war, not upon those who wait to adapt themselves after they occur.

• 4:30Jocko Willink?

  Hmm.

• 4:32Jocko Willink?

  That's Giulio Duette, which I'm sure I'm saying wrong, some, uh, an Italian, an Italian general who is a air power theorist. You probably learned about him in some, somewhere along your course of life. Yeah, for sure. Cause he was early on, he was, we're talking biplane air power. That's what he was talking about. Air power could break the will of the enemy is kind of one of his, one of his theories, which is true to a point. To a point. To a point, it's true. All right, next quote. In any problem where an opposing force exists and cannot be regulated, one must foresee and provide for alternative courses.

• 5:17Jocko Willink?

  Adaptability is the law which governs survival in wars as in life. War being but a concentrated form of the human struggle against the environment. Hmm. BH Liddell Hart. So all those, what, what, what's one of my quote? I have a quote.

• 5:38Jocko Willink?

  Right? I'm quoting myself, but I've said this for a long time. Uh, I think the quote is combat reflects life only amplified and intensified. So BH Liddell Hart, who's British soldier, World War One, military historian, a very prolific military theorist. He said it even better than me, of course. War is a concentrated form of the human struggle against the environment. So you have to be able to adapt. That's the name of this chapter. And here we go. It kicks off the modern battlefield battlefield is characterized by friction, uncertainty, disorder and rapid change.

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  I like working in an environment that's characterized by friction, uncertainty, disorder, and rapid change. Those are like the things that horrify all human beings. Uncertainty, everyone hates that. Disorder, most people hate that. And rapid change, everyone hates that. And that's what, as a military human, that's what you gotta be, that's what you gotta be ready for, and that's what you gotta train for, and that's what you gotta be, for lack of a word, you gotta learn to love that stuff.

• 6:44Dave Berke?

  Yeah. I mean, what in life that you do that matters isn't characterized by those words. Something that's actually important, yeah.

• 6:51Jocko Willink?

  Each situation is a unique combination of shifting factors that cannot be controlled with precision or certainty. This chapter discusses ways to think about adapting or modifying our decisions based on changed circumstances or sudden opportunities. A tactically proficient leader must be able to adapt actions to each situation.

• 7:12Jocko Willink?

  The Oodaloo discussed in chapter four essentially describes the process of adaptation. We observe the situation, orient to it, decide what to do and act. The antagonist who can consistently adapt more quickly to the situation will have a significant advantage. Adaptability is thus an important part of Marine Corps tactics. There's something you don't think of every day, that adaptability is literally part of Marine Corps tactics. In essence, adaptability means shortening the time it takes to adjust to each new situation. We see this with businesses all the time. Businesses that either adapt and win, or don't adapt and lose.

• 7:53Dave Berke?

  Yeah, we see businesses that they'll lay out a plan, they'll have this big strategy, this is how I see things going. And the ones that stick to that and refuse to adjust and recognize that their environment is changing, they force themselves around that initial plan and don't adjust, they fail. And the connection from combat to business, we make that connection all the time. And it's the exact same thing, is your plan is gonna change, your world is gonna change quickly, and you better adapt. And if you can, you'll be, you'll be fine, you'll be successful. And if you can't, it's not gonna work.

• 8:22Jocko Willink?

  If you don't have humility, you won't adapt because you're gonna think that the way you're doing it is fine. That's, that's the, probably the biggest thing that upholds people from adapting, is they're, they're not, they're, they're just, their ego's so big that they're thinking, I don't need to change.

• 8:39Dave Berke?

  People who aren't humble can't change, period. Because they think they got everything figured out, they got everything right, and they don't change. And that's the recipe for failure. It's all throughout this book.

• 8:48Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, there are two basic ways to adapt. Sometimes we have enough situational awareness to understand a situation in advance and take preparatory action. This is anticipation. At other times, we have to adapt the situation on the spur of the moment without time for preparation. This is improvisation. To be fully adaptable, we must be able to do both. And this is one of those things where I was listening to, I was listening to Jordan Peterson yesterday. And he was talking about how there's like the creative people. And then the other side of the spectrum is, I don't even know, the conscientious people. And, and most people are either creative or they're conscientious.

• 9:31Jocko Willink?

  Conscientious meaning that they'll do what they're told, they'll do it to the best of their ability. They're very duty focused, they're very reliable. The creative people, obviously, are like none of those things. And, and he was saying, creative people are poor. You know, this basic thing is if you're creative, you're not, you're not building a future. You're not doing reliable things on a disciplined basis. And occasionally, you get people that are highly disciplined and creative and they're be successful. Sometimes you get people that are highly creative. And he said, there's this tiny percentage of people that are wildly successful, creative people, right? Some songwriter, some artist, some filmmaker, that's, and, and oftentimes they're crazy. And you see this with fighters too.

• 10:14Jocko Willink?

  Like a wildly creative fighter, they're, they're, if they, they're that small percentage that they're going to be successful in fighting. But a lot of times, they're, the rest of their life is not in good order.

• 10:26Dave Berke?

  Right.

• 10:27Jocko Willink?

  Right, it is not in good order. So I've said this, that your standard military guy, girl, whoever.

• 10:37Jocko Willink?

  If they are on the far end of conscientious, they'll be really, really good. Like, oh yeah, they're gonna get promoted, they're gonna do as they're told, they're gonna follow the orders. And they're, and they're be good. I'm not, I'm not saying that in a negative way at all, like they're squared away. And it's awesome. And they're great to work for. They want to do a good job. But they get like capped out at a certain point. Because they don't have that spark of creativity that they can look at a rapidly changing situation and go, I know what we're gonna do. So occasionally, and, and, and a lot of times those people that are creative are too creative for the military. And they end up leaving because they can't stand the constraints that are put on them. So,

• 11:18Jocko Willink?

  you know, even when you read about people like Patton, people that were wildly successful, they, and they also were, they were, they were regimented and creative at the same time. So, interesting dichotomy that you try to have to, kind of have to have, or if you really want to take it to the next level. Back to the book, anticipation, the first basic way to adapt is to anticipate, by which we mean to introduce new methods, schemes and techniques for future use. In order to anticipate, we must be able to forecast future actions, at least to some extent. Our forecasts are usually based on past experiences. Often a forecast involves considering what we learned through trial and error in training, exercises or actual combat.

• 12:02Jocko Willink?

  An excellent example of anticipation is the Marine Corps' development of amphibious warfare techniques at Quantico during the 1920s and 30s. These techniques proved to be essentials to the success in World War II in both the Pacific and in Europe.

• 12:20Jocko Willink?

  All planning at all echelons is a form of anticipatory participation, adaptation, adapting our actions in advance. Another important tool for tactical adaptation is the use of immediate action drills or standard operating procedures.

• 12:38Jocko Willink?

  Why do I always call it standard operating procedure? They called it standing operating procedures. You think that's a misprint? You think a misprint made it through the Marine Corps?

• 12:46Dave Berke?

  It's always been standard as far as I know.

• 12:48Jocko Willink?

  This is standing operating procedure. I think we have a little misprint. We'll, we'll write to the editor. Standard operating procedures, these are practiced, pre-designed, generic actions which cover common situations. Having a collection of these tools at our disposal allows us to react immediately in a coordinated way to a broad variety of tactical situations. Immediate action drills do not replace the need for tactical judgment. They merely provide a way to seize initiative in the early stages of developing this, of a developing situation until we can take more considered action. They provide the basis for adaptation. Very important to have some good standard operating procedures.

• 13:33Jocko Willink?

  With martial arts, in the early 90s, in the, in the SEAL teams, they were experimenting with a lot of different martial arts. And part of some of the systems that they brought in was they just had a standard immediate action drill that you are going to go through. If X happened, you are going to throw nine throat punches, followed by a kick to the groin, followed by a face rake. They just, and, and if, if you, if you did that, if someone walks up to, to you in a bar and shoves you and you deliver nine punches to the throat, a face rake, kick to the groin, like, and people say, yeah, it works. Well, you know what? You're right. That's, that's actually true.

• 14:18Jocko Willink?

  If you have a standard operating procedure that you're going to go to, that's just hyper aggressive in a street fight, there's a decent chance it's going to work. Unfortunately, once that initial volley is over, if you're not ready to adapt to that person that covers up, grabs a hold of your whatever, and starts to maneuver on you, well, then you have a problem. So there's a, there's a chance it's gonna work, but you have to be able to adapt afterwards. Same thing in a firefight. You know, someone starts shooting at you, well, you know, the, the Vietnam guys taught us in a closed environment like the jungle where there's no other friendly forces around, you're in a squad of SEAL, a squad of SEALs of eight guys, you get contacted, everyone drops down in their field of fire and dumps a magazine. Tilt was talking about that. The Frenchmen were talking about that.

• 15:01Jocko Willink?

  They would drop down. Man, it was crazy to hear that story where he says they all dumped their mags at the same time and then there's silence as everyone's trying to do a mag change. That silence, which probably felt like 14 years, was probably, probably three seconds. It was probably three seconds. And, and, and, but that's the standard, same standard operating procedures. Oh, we just got contacted. We're gonna lay down some lead. So you get that really good aggressive, immediate action drill, then you have to be able to learn how to think. And that's where some of those early martial arts systems, they succeeded in that initial volley. And then the adaptation piece, if it went beyond that, we're talking mission failure.

• 15:45Dave Berke?

  We used to teach at Top Gun, I talked about this a lot when we would have, you'd have a tactical situation, SOPs for, for your actions when you didn't know what to do. So if you looked at a situation and didn't really understand what you should do, you still have to do something. Going wings level and flying straight ahead is a death sentence. So our SOP for reaction to being shot at was what we called lift vector on and pull. Basically means point at the guy, pull as hard as you can.

• 16:09Jocko Willink?

  What's pull do?

• 16:10Dave Berke?

  Pull closes the distance between the two views and moves the airplane from the piece of sky that you're in to some other piece of sky and makes the closure happen as fast as you can to try to minimize the distance. What you're trying to create is separation. So if I get separation from you, I can attack you. And I, if I'm the defender, I want to close that separation and bring that fight down as close as I can. But the reality is that me putting my lift vector on and pulling towards you, isn't the right What I actually needed to do is figure out, I apply that SOP and as soon as I do that, I need to engage my brain to think, okay, now where do I need to really go? Which is maybe up and after or some other reaction. The SOP in an airplane was that maneuver, which is no different than dump your mag. It was to close the gap of time till you actually figured out what's going on? What's the situation? And that's the adaptation you're talking about.

• 16:55Dave Berke?

  The SOP really was just a gap filler until you could get your brain engaged to doing the right thing.

• 16:58Jocko Willink?

  So you want to close the distance on the enemy? You want to get closer to them?

• 17:02Dave Berke?

  Yeah, so if I am, let's say you and I are crossing each other and you're shooting, you're going to shoot at me. And I, I see that you're in a position to employ a weapon against me. I actually want to close the distance between you and me as fast as I can to get inside your, your weapons range as quickly as possible. Cause if I extend away from that or do nothing, you get more opportunity to get to a more advantageous position. But me pulling directly towards you isn't the right answer. I don't know what the right, if I knew what the right answer was, I wouldn't be here in the first place. So my SOP is I have to close the distance right away. And the good pilots, the amount of time, sometimes it would take a half a second before they adjust that maneuver. But that immediate action, that SOP is lift vector on and pull in an airplane.

• 17:41Jocko Willink?

  Would you ever be able to be ahead of your SOP? In other words, you're laughing like I'm in.

• 17:46Dave Berke?

  Yeah, no, no, I'm laughing because I think you know the answer. Depending on who you're fighting. If I'm fighting someone who's not as experienced and hasn't seen this before and doesn't have that rolodex of can't anticipate because he hasn't seen it, I'm never reacting. I'm never reacting to what he's doing. I'm always not just out in front of him, I'm moves out in front of him. But if I was fighting against a guy who was at my level or better, there are times he would do things that I had to react to. And the timeframe that takes me to react to an SOP to the right thing, the shorter that timeframe, the more likely is I'm going to be successful. And if I don't know what to do and I just spend the entire fight lift vector on and pull, I'm going to lose. And that SOP was something that eventually you actually got past and almost never had to do it because you weren't there in the first place. You were thinking moves ahead to get there.

• 18:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so that's, that's a good thing to think about too. And it's a good thing to think about from a self-defense perspective martial arts wise. Like you should have some standard operating procedures, some immediate action drills that you're gonna do. That are just gonna get you and you know, closing the distance for a jujitsu guy is real instinctive. If you watch the UFC or whatever, a wrestler or a jujitsu guy, once they start getting banged up. And they don't really know what to do, their instincts take over and they just shoot and close the distance and try and get in. That's not always the best thing in a, in a street fight. In fact, it often isn't. What we want to do is break contact. So, you know, think about that. Think about that with your jujitsu coach, your martial arts instructor. What is your move gonna do? What's your, what's your immediate action drill?

• 19:12Jocko Willink?

  When someone gets in your face, when someone grabs you, how are you gonna break contact? And get away? Have a good SOP and a good immediate action drill for that. Alright.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Same thing with boxing, by the way. And I, you know, when you see a guy in trouble. In boxing, you'll like try to hug him, even though that's not part of necessarily the boxing part, but oh yeah, that's the thing to get him out of trouble. So he can, how you say, like start using your brain and at least.

• 19:38Jocko Willink?

  You, you actually want to get inside the range of their weapons systems.

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Systems, yeah, exactly.

• 19:43Jocko Willink?

  Muay Thai, that doesn't work quite as well because you get inside and you're getting elbowed in the face or you're getting kneed in the ribs.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, no good.

• 19:49Jocko Willink?

  You caught a knee to the rib before?

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Yes, sir, I have.

• 19:52Jocko Willink?

  That's not fun.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  No, it's not.

• 19:54Jocko Willink?

  You don't even, when you're watching a Muay Thai fight, because they're so hardcore. They get kneed in the rib and you think, oh, that must not hurt real bad.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, here's the thing in Muay Thai, this is an actual like thing. You can't show when you, you get hurt.

• 20:08Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Like if you get hit in the legs, legs sucks too, by the way. Pretty much anything in the ribs sucks, 100%. But yeah, that knee, the, oh yeah, it's bad. But you can't show pain in Muay Thai. Like literally, that's kind of the rule. Like if you show pain, it's like you fundamentally didn't follow the, the protocol, you know? You see what I'm saying? It's like an official thing because when they see the pain, they're just gonna go, if you go, oh dang, that leg kick hurt, even if you just go like this, go. Or even limp on it for a second.

• 20:34Jocko Willink?

  UFC and you smile. Which is your way of saying, oh, no, that didn't hurt. And everyone knows, oh, yes, it did.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  You see the leg kicks just keep coming like dang, they taking like even more leg kicks to that same leg every time. It's like, that's the SOP. You see the little pain on the guy's face, whatever. You just keep hitting that thing.

• 20:51Jocko Willink?

  But yeah, there's another SOP in Thailand that I learned about. Well, it's, it's maybe it's not in Thailand, but it's definitely with Thai food in America. You ever eat Thai food?

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 21:00Jocko Willink?

  All right. So I get, you know, I, I will up the lever of spice.

• 21:05Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 21:05Jocko Willink?

  One to 10 at the Thai restaurant that I go to. And over a year I went, you know, from five to seven to nine. One time I went in there and nine, you know, no factor, eight, no factor, like tastes good. I went in there one time and she said, well, what type of spice would you like today, sir? And I said, 10.

• 21:25Jocko Willink?

  They made me something that was psycho. Like it was almost inedible. I ate it just out of sheer.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Ego.

• 21:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, ego. I just ate it, but I would, my mouth was on fire. And so the waitress, like when I ordered it, she kind of looked at me like this is not a good move.

• 21:46Jocko Willink?

  But I didn't, what I didn't realize. So then the next time I came, I said, hey, last time I came, I, you know, I asked for 10. I don't want 10 again. I said, when I asked for 10, is that like an insult slash challenge to the kitchen? And she said, oh, yes. So, so don't order 10 unless you want your face to be on fire.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  And that makes sense too. Cause when you're over here like nine, no factor, you know, 10 should be incrementally should be consistent.

• 22:14Jocko Willink?

  You see what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the way nine was 10 should have been a little bit more.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Right. To the difference between eight and nine, or even at least establish some sort of a pattern. You see what I'm saying? Like if the increment between eight and nine is like a four, maybe nine and 10 is like a eight. Okay. I dig it, but.

• 22:29Jocko Willink?

  They saw that phalong. That's, that's the, the in Thailand, they call the foreigners phalong. It means, I think it means foreign.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Derogatorily or just?

• 22:38Jocko Willink?

  I wouldn't say super positive, but no, it's, it's, it's. Cause you know, when you go to Thailand and the phalongs go to they, the, the phalong, like a drunk European dude says, I'll fight that little Thai guy. Put me in the ring with him and they go, okay.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  You got you.

• 22:54Jocko Willink?

  And they put the big German dude in there or whatever, who's not a fighter. He's just a guy who's 200 and. 238 pounds of beer. And they put him in there against a 142 pound Thai kid. That just hacks him apart with with leg kicks. And just annihilates him. So anyways.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  So that was you at the Thai restaurant essentially.

• 23:20Jocko Willink?

  To pieces, not with leg kicks, but with whatever spice they put in there. So use caution.

• 23:30Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book.

• 23:35Jocko Willink?

  Improvisation. So this is the other form. The second basic way to adapt is to improvise, to adjust to a situation on the spur of the moment without any preparation. Like anticipation, improvisation is the key to maneuver is key to maneuver warfare. Improvisation requires creative intelligence, intelligent and experienced leaders. Who have an intuition, intuitive appreciation for what will work and what will not. Improvisation is of critical importance to increasing speed. It requires commanders who have a strong situational awareness. And a firm understanding of their senior commander's intent. So they can adjust their own actions in accordance with the higher commander's desires.

• 24:20Jocko Willink?

  Often we will find ourselves in a situation where our organic resources, weapons, vehicles, and so on, are not adequate to keep us moving fast. In France, 1940, German General Heinz Girdean. Put some of his infantry in commandeered French buses. On Grenada, when Army Rangers needed vehicles, they took East German trucks belonging to the Grenadian Army. Sound unorthodox? There's nothing orthodox about failure due to an inability to adapt.

• 24:57Jocko Willink?

  Improvisation, and this is one of those ones where you, this is where you start to see a leader that can't, that doesn't have the creative aspect to his thought process. This is where you see it. When the situation demands true improvisation, this is where you see a little crack in the armor of the highly conscientious leader.

• 25:23Dave Berke?

  Yeah, that's the guy you were talking about before. And both of these things should realize that these are both learned things. The ability to anticipate is not just some sort of magical vision that you're born with. They talk about reps over and over again. But even this idea of improvising, it's what has learned there is a recognition is, hey, my skill set here, my bag of tricks, I don't have what I need to actually make happen, what I need to have happen. I understand the intent, and I don't have the resources at hand. So I actually need to recognize this is the time to improvise. And it's that rigid conscientious thinking that doesn't allow you to say, you know what? And it's not just totally winging it. It's not just on the fly. It's recognizing, I need to come up with a creative solution here because what I have available doesn't work. And those rigid leaders, and I know who you're talking to, I've seen them throughout my career, they

• 26:08Dave Berke?

  simply don't have that place where they can go. And you have to, at times that are most critical, you have to be able to go there. And the good leaders, that's the creative piece that they need to be able to tap into in their career.

• 26:20Jocko Willink?

  You know what I notice is, if you can't detach from the situation, you won't be able to be creative. When I'm looking at a problem, I sometimes have to consciously detach from the situation and take a different look at it. Because what you will see, we all are kind of brainwashed into just pattern recognition and then applying the appropriate, known, tested solution. But when you look at something and you don't really see a pattern, what you do is you try and apply a pattern that you've seen in the past. And that's a positive thing. That makes sense. But sometimes that pattern is just too far off.

• 27:02Jocko Willink?

  It's just not quite there. And all you'll do is try and apply the prescription that you have to that problem, and it's not going to work out. And for me, when I see a problem, I always have to say, okay, take a step back and look at this from a different angle. Because if you don't do that... If you don't do that, you're not going to see how far off your pattern recognition actually is. And it can be far off.

• 27:29Dave Berke?

  Yeah, and sometimes too, that pattern recognition, that is a good thing, like you described, tells you, "Oh, I need, I need this, I need air support here, I need heavy machine guns here." Okay, I have the answer. It's like, well, guess what? You don't have that resource today. That thing that you say you need, it doesn't exist. So, so what are you going to do now? And that's when you see, you can see people panic in those situations because they don't think there's a solution available to them. And the reality is, there is, if you can do what you just described, but they think pattern recognition situation dictates, "This is what I use." And if that tool that they are used to having doesn't exist for them there, that's when they panic and that's when, that's the worst case situation for them is they don't think there's an out. You can actually surround yourself with people that can help you there.

• 28:11Dave Berke?

  You know, you can actually have other people say, "Hey, I, I saw this on our way in. I think there's a solution here." And that's where the humility piece requires is, "Hey, what do you see?" "Hey, I see this," and somebody else can actually lead you down that road, instead of just refusing the budge from your position and setting your whole team up to fail.

• 28:28Jocko Willink?

  Not a good plan.

• 28:29Dave Berke?

  No.

• 28:30Jocko Willink?

  Improvis, uh, back to the book. For instance, take the situation in which Marines of the 2nd Battalion 5th Marine Regiment found themselves in the Battle of Way City, Republic of Vietnam in February of 1968. One of their first objectives was to retake the city's treasury building, which was heavily defended by the North Vietnamese. Prior to the assault, the Marines were disappointed to see that their mortar fire was having little effect on the building or its defenders. Then the executive officer found some US tear, tear gas canisters and dispensers in the military assistance compound they had reoccupied. Realizing the North Vietnamese lacked gas masks, the Marines proceeded to lob tear gas canisters into the treasury building.

• 29:15Jocko Willink?

  As a result of the executive officer's quick thinking and adaptation, the North Vietnamese quickly vacated the building and the Marines secured the objective with minimal casualties.

• 29:27Jocko Willink?

  That seems real obvious when you're looking back at it. But this is one of those situations where exactly what you were just talking about. If you, I could, I've, and I, I would say you can watch, and I have watched many military leaders in that exact situation. When I was running training, I saw it all the time. These guys would, they'd know what the standard operating procedure is, and they would just stick with it. I would, I would give all kinds of answers, would be floating around the battlefield for them. And they wouldn't see them until you learn to take a step back. So this is a great example, and it seems so obvious. But it's not that obvious when you're in the situation.

• 30:02Dave Berke?

  And when you're emotional about the situation. Yeah, it's really hard to see that when you're emotional.

• 30:09Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, flexible plans. We have several techniques to help us develop adaptability. One of these is to make flexible plans. Flexible, flexible, flexible plans can enhance adaptability by establishing a course of action that provides for multiple options. For example, a blocking position that covers two avenues of approach from the same location instead of only one provides the flexibility to adapt to an enemy coming through either avenue. We can increase our flexibility by providing branches for current and future operations. And those are like little branch plans that just branch off of the main plan. Branches are options.

• 30:51Jocko Willink?

  I.e. changing disposition, orientation, strength, movement, or accepting or declining battle to deal with changing conditions on the battlefield that may affect the plan. Flexibility can also be increased by providing sequels for the current and future operations. Sequels are courses of action to follow probable battle or engagement outcomes. Victory, defeat, or stalemate.

• 31:19Jocko Willink?

  I have a note here that I wrote to myself. And the note that I wrote to myself, it says, "It's okay." And I put these in quotes, "It's okay, then we will do something else effective that moves us toward our goal." That's, that's like such a good answer. Oh, we've, we've, we've, we've become stagnant. It's okay. Like, like, think about that from a, from you're in a leadership position, or no, think of it from a subordinate position. You've hit a wall and you can't get through. And you look at your leader and your leader says, "It's okay, we're going to do something else that's going to be effective, that's going to move us toward our goal." Oh, and that seems, again, it's really easy to look at these things and say, "Well, that's real obvious."

• 32:03Jocko Willink?

  I'm telling you, it is not obvious unless you train yourself to start thinking that way. It is not obvious.

• 32:09Dave Berke?

  There's a reason that's in this book. It's in this book because it's hard. As simple as that sounds, build a plan and have a whole bunch of options available to you when your plan doesn't work. That's written down in the Marine Corps Tactics Manual, specifically because they know how hard this is, especially in combat.

• 32:27Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the value of branches and sequels is that they prepare us for several different actions. We should keep the number of branches and sequels to a relative few. And, and Leif and I talked about that in the dichotomy of leadership, where people go, "Okay, you want to see branch plans? I got some branch plans," and they create 50 of them. You need three.

• 32:50Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Jocko Willink?

  You need two, you need four, you don't need 50. Back to the book, we should not try to develop so many branches and sequels that we cannot adequately plan, train, or prepare for them, for any of them. And what I found even on top of that is, when you have multiple branches, and you rehearse them all, no one knows what's actually happening. You know, if you rehearse, you rehearse your primary, this is what you should do, you should rehearse your primary one. Like 10 times, your secondary one, three times and your tertiary one, once as a walkthrough. Yeah. And you should do them in reverse order. Or at least, maybe not reverse order, but you practice your primary one, five times, three times on your secondary, one time on your tertiary, five more times on your primary. Finish on that.

• 33:36Jocko Willink?

  That's where you want them to, the guys to come out the gate on. Otherwise,

• 33:42Jocko Willink?

  you're gonna get half the guys doing one and half the guys doing something else. It's a nightmare.

• 33:48Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book, the skillful, well thought out use of branches and sequels becomes an important means of anticipating future courses of action. This anticipation helps accelerate the decision cycle and therefore increases the tempo.

• 34:02Jocko Willink?

  This idea of anticipation.

• 34:07Jocko Willink?

  I mean, what you're saying is that I know what the enemy is going to do. And when you're doing jujitsu and you're good at jujitsu, I used to describe jujitsu and I used to say, when you're good at jujitsu, you can see the future. Like if I roll with you, Dave, because I've been training for a long time, there's a 90% chance that I know what you're about to do. Like when you were going up against a, a, a Top Gun student that had just showed up. There's a ni-, well, you tell me. No, that's right. There's like a 90% chance that like this guy's gonna do, when I do this, he's gonna do that. There's a, there, so, so this idea that you begin to be able to predict what the future holds is, think about it.

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  Think about, that's, that's what happens in jujitsu. That's what happens in jujitsu. That's what makes you get beat in jujitsu is the person you're going against knows what you're going to do and is waiting there for you to do it and submits you. That's what happens with tactics. If you can anticipate what the enemy is going to do, you can be waiting for them. And we used to set operations up like that. Hey, when we set the breach here, that's gonna drive people in this direction, out of the building. If they try to escape, they're gonna go out this back door, this back window, boom, we'll be waiting right there for them. Or, or whatever. Like that's how we do it. So this idea of anticipation, man, if you can, if you can dedicate a little bit of time to think

• 35:29Jocko Willink?

  about what your competitor, what the enemy is going to do, you're going to set yourself up for a, what's the video game term, Echo Charles, for like a total, is it total victory?

• 35:42Dave Berke?

  Flawless victory.

• 35:43Jocko Willink?

  Flawless victory. I knew there was a better term. Thank you.

• 35:46Dave Berke?

  You're welcome.

• 35:46Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad you're back from Hawaii to give us this information.

• 35:49Dave Berke?

  I never would have known that answer.

• 35:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 35:51Dave Berke?

  Well done.

• 35:54Jocko Willink?

  Flexible plans avoid unnecessary detail that not only consumes time in their development, but has a tendency to restrict subordinate latitude. How often do we see the, the, the leader that thinks that the more detail they put into a plan, the better off they're going to be and the better people are going to understand it?

• 36:15Dave Berke?

  All the time. That comment about your subordinate latitude, the goal should actually be, is to tell them what to do the least amount of time and give them the most latitude possible. That should be your goal, to let them figure out what it is you're going to do. That comment, the latitude comment is something that's so critical for leaders, give your, your folks latitude to do that.

• 36:37Jocko Willink?

  I like the way they just call it unnecessary detail. And this is one of those things where in the military, the American attitude of life is, if a little is good, then more is better. And if more is better, then just max it out to the nth degree. And I, I saw that over and over again, and we've wrote about it in Extreme Ownership, the planning. It's like Leif and Seth were so used to these 200 PowerPoint slide briefs. And I was telling them, look, we're not doing that. Put a map up on the wall. Talk to guys. Leif and Seth were actually scared for their careers when the commanding officer was coming up to,

• 37:17Jocko Willink?

  to sit in on their briefs. They were worried about what was going to happen to their careers because they wanted to build. 200 PowerPoint slides for a brief on a reconnaissance in the woods. That's what they wanted to do. So what they realized is that all that detail, all that use, they'd been driven. They thought, you know, at somewhere along the line in the SEAL community, someone said, oh, well, you put some good detail in there, put more. And then a year later, someone else was saying, put more. And then a year later, someone was putting more. And that's how you end up with 200 slides that no one understands. Yeah. Totally ridiculous.

• 38:02Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. Instead, flexible plans lay out what needs to be accomplished, but leave the manner of accomplishment to subordinates, which is what you just said. This allows subordinates the flexibility to deal with a broader range of circumstances. Flexible plans are plans that can be easily changed. Plans that require coordination are said to be coupled. If all parts of a plan are too tightly coupled, the plan is harder to change because changing any one part of the plan means changing all the other parts. Instead, we should try and develop modular loosely connected plans. Then if we change or modify any one part of the plan, it does not directly affect all the other parts.

• 38:45Jocko Willink?

  This is why I talked about a little bit on one of our earlier podcasts from this book is, I would try and keep my unit integrity, my fire team integrity together as much as I could. So that way, if something changed, it was really easy. Just say, okay, fire teams two and three, you're doing this now. And not putting little special teams together for every. People like to put together little special teams for everything. No, use the team. Use the team that's used to working with each other. Finally, flexible plans should be simple plans. Simple plans are easier to adapt to the rapidly changing, complex and fluid situations that we experience in combat. Man, the.

• 39:30Jocko Willink?

  The idea that keeping, the idea of keeping your plan simple. You know, when I would be going through training, when I would be getting judged by the training cadre. That was such a big advantage for me. This be like, oh yeah, this is what we're gonna do, guys. We're gonna get online here. We're gonna move through the target. We're gonna stay in fire team integrity. Once we're on the other side of the target, we'll call. It was like these basic plans. That it didn't matter what we encountered on the target. Every, it was, it was almost like I was cheating. It was almost like I was cheating. And you know what? What, you know what they do? They lure you in. To coming up with a complex plan. They go, hey, Jocko, we're gonna give you guys all day today to plan this.

• 40:14Jocko Willink?

  And they, they think you're, they're doing you a favor and they're thinking that. That when you come up with a more complex plan, that it's gonna be better. They actually think that. And I'd say, okay, cool. I'm still gonna plan it in 13 minutes.

• 40:27Jocko Willink?

  And once we get the plan done, you know, okay, we'll, we'll add some detail to it. But the essential plan, 13 minutes, nine minutes. Let me look at the target for nine minutes. And I'm gonna tell you exactly how this thing's gonna go down. And the simplicity that you keep, such a huge advantage over. It's cheating. It's almost cheating.

• 40:46Dave Berke?

  It is. We talk about this in business all the time. This, this idea of, of simples. One of the laws that we talk about it and I'll ask the question that I'll have key leaders that'll bring us in and we'll work with them. And I'll say simply, hey, why is it important for the plan to be simple enough that everybody on your team, especially at the lowest level of your team, understands it? And they won't really know the answer. And they'll think, well, it, it helps. The reason you want everybody to understand the plan at the lowest level is that those are people gonna be out there doing the real work. They're the ones that are actually doing the work, not you as the key leader, not. And if they don't understand what to do, the simple thing is that they, they won't know what to do. And you'll be stuck solving all the problems all day. And that's what we see these leaders. I'm, I'm constantly answering questions from all my people. It's like.

• 41:29Dave Berke?

  Because they don't understand what to do and they're at the point of friction. And if your plan was actually less complex, it would help them more. And they think, no, I need to give them more details, more. That's actually not what they need. They need to just understand what you're trying to get accomplished and let them do the work.

• 41:44Jocko Willink?

  It can be counterintuitive. It can be counterintuitive because someone will see their subordinates go out to do something and they miss the mark. And so what they do is they try and drive more detail down. Now, look, there's, there's obviously a dichotomy. This and there's an encounter to where you're not giving them enough information and they don't understand what's going on. They don't understand what the objective is. That, that, that can happen. It usually happens the other way, though.

• 42:07Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 42:09Jocko Willink?

  Next section in this book is called decentralization. Another excellent way to improve adaptability is to decentralize decision making authority as much as each situation allows. This means that commanders on the scene and closest to the events have the latitude to deal with the situation as required on their own authority, but always in accordance with the higher commander's intent.

• 42:36Jocko Willink?

  This decentralization, decentralization speeds up reaction time. We do not have to wait for information to flow up to a higher command and orders to flow back down. It increases responsiveness of the organization, which in turn increases adaptability. Decentralizing control through the use of mission orders is one of the tools we use to maximize our ability to adapt. And this is the fourth law of combat, decentralized command.

• 43:05Jocko Willink?

  Confidence in the abilities of subordinates plays an important part in decentralization. Leaders who have confidence in the capabilities of their subordinates will feel more comfortable in granting them greater latitude in accomplishing tasks.

• 43:20Jocko Willink?

  So that's what you have to do. You have to build up that confidence in your subordinates. And once you have confidence in your subordinates, you can let them run. You can get out of their way, actually.

• 43:30Dave Berke?

  And for them to be confident in themselves as well, that they can actually, actually do that, understanding the big intent and that they can do that themselves. This book is making, this manual is making the connection between the need to be creative and the need to let your people be creative. And centralization and giving them too much detail to actually stifles the thing you need from them the most, which is creativity and latitude when they're at the point of friction, which you can't be it as a leader all the time with them. They're going to be there on their own more often than not. And you actually have to cultivate that well in advance, or they are going to freeze and they're gonna, they're gonna have too much friction. They won't know what to do when it matters the most and you won't be able to help them. I'm, I'm sure you saw that all the time as a, as a mission lead at Top Gun. I'd have six different elements dealing with six different problems.

• 44:13Dave Berke?

  And I couldn't be, usually not at any of them. Maybe I could be with one if I was, happened to be at the right place in the right time in my airplane, but if something happened critical 60, 70 miles away, I, I can't influence that. I can't help them with that. This idea of, of creativity, that's the confidence that you're talking about in them being able to solve their own problems. And when you see it as a leader, that's what allows you to step back. It's awesome to watch when leaders figure that out. Oh, you, you just, you train them and just let them do their job and it worked out? How'd that make you feel? It's awesome.

• 44:43Jocko Willink?

  Some pragmatic, kind of tactical level talk here. If you have your subordinates and they don't accomplish the mission the way they should, or they make some bad decisions and your instinct is, okay, what I need to do is give them more detailed commands. Well, that, that's not the right answer. So what is the right answer? The right answer is what you want to do is you need to make sure that they understand what your commander's intent was. You need to make sure that you've given them the training so that they learn to, to recognize patterns. You need, need to make sure you go, give them the training so that they, so that they learn that part of creativity. You need to make sure that they understand that what you want them to do out on the battlefield

• 45:28Jocko Willink?

  is to actually lead. Because a lot of times, people don't understand that. They, what they think they should do is wait for you to tell them what to do. Yeah. That's the breakdown. So the, it's one of those moments where you need to look when your team doesn't do what you want them to do. And your instinct is, I need to tell them what to do more. That's the wrong instinct. What you need to do, it's not that you need to just let them do whatever they want, because they've already proved, they just proved that they don't know how to do that. But what you need to do now is you need to train them to think. You need to train them to be creative. You need to train them to, to follow up their immediate action drills and their standard operating procedures with an actual assessment of what is really happening and make some decisions based on what they've been trained to do,

• 46:12Jocko Willink?

  what the commander's intent is, what the survivability of the mission is. Like all of those things, they have to learn to think. And I got to see this over and over again in my leadership laboratory, running the West Coast SEAL training. I got to see it over and over again. You could see someone in their first block of training, in, in unit level training, their first block of training, you would see a young SEAL leader who would completely lock up. Mental lockup. When things started going sideways, and believe me, they would go sideways. Mental lockup. Then you fast forward, I'd go out to the next block of training. All of a sudden, you'd see, oh, a little spark, a little something, a little, maybe a little decision, hesitant decision, but a decision. You go out to the last block of training, something, something, it hasn't even gone wrong yet. It is beginning to go wrong.

• 46:57Jocko Willink?

  And they go, hey, will you do so that building right now? And you go, okay, this guy, this person's got it. So you can absolutely get better at this. But the way you do it is not by providing more direction. It's actually by providing the proper training. Cause it's not nothing. And that's what I want to, the point I want to make is it's not, when, when I say, hey, if your team isn't doing what you want to do, give them less direction, that's not the answer. The answer is give them less direction and give them the training, give them the mindset, give them the authority, give them the repetitions, give them the pattern recognition, give them the standard operating procedure and the immediate action drill. And I've talked about this before, part of the immediate action drill that you need to have is what you're gonna do when you don't know what's going on.

• 47:42Jocko Willink?

  Cause there's a process that you can follow when you don't know what is happening. What you need to do, if I start getting shot at and I don't know what's happening, okay, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna start, am I gonna reload another magazine and shoot it? No, I'm absolutely not gonna do that. I'm gonna take a step back, I'm gonna get off the firing line, I'm gonna high port my weapon, I'm gonna look to my left, I'm gonna look to my right. I'm gonna assess where my guys are and make sure I know that. Then I'm gonna start assessing where the enemy is. Once I've done that, guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna make the littlest move that I can possibly make, that's gonna move me in the direction that I suspect is the right way to go. So I'm gonna make one small movement that I think is right. I'm not gonna commit to it a hundred percent, but I'm gonna make one small movement.

• 48:24Jocko Willink?

  Once we've made that one small movement and it proves that maybe I was right in my suspicion, cool, now I'll make a bolder movement and we'll continue in that direction. But you can do that, you can develop a standard operating procedure, an immediate action drill of what to do when you don't know what to do.

• 48:43Jocko Willink?

  So, when you were in an aircraft and you got shot at by the enemy and you did your immediate action drill, which was turn towards them,

• 48:54Jocko Willink?

  then what's your next, what's the next steps that you take? So you don't know what's happening, you do your immediate action drill. So you had to have some kind of thing that you did. I mean, you already said it earlier, you start looking around, figuring out what you're gonna do next.

• 49:06Dave Berke?

  It's funny, cause as you were going, what you just described, I was thinking about Top Gun, I started thinking about Jiu Jitsu, I was thinking about our time in Ramadi, I was thinking about business. All that, that thing you just described, that template fits in all those different places at the same time. And it's really how I was describing that immediate action response, that SOP was, do this until you figure out what you're supposed to do. You, you said something, you said it twice. People can learn to be creative. I have had people work with me and say, I'm not a very creative person. I'm better at this. So I have an operations officer. I'm not a creative thinker. I think like, you know, I'm a immediately put that person in a position where he's uncomfortable. Not so much that he can make a mistake. That's going to be catastrophic for the squadron.

• 49:49Dave Berke?

  I wouldn't put him in a situation that is so far out of his comfort zone that he could make a decision that will hurt the team so bad that it's not recoverable. But you described it. People can learn and have to learn how to be creative. And the, the really short answer is what do I do? Once I get past that initial move is I think that's creative. I look at and think, what do I need to do? I take all those different pieces together. The more experienced I am, the easier it is. And I figure out, okay, I need to stop this. This has been a good intermediate answer, but it's not the right answer. And now I need to move in this other direction or pull in some other resource. Tell another airplane what's going on, call a ground, whatever that answer is. The answer is different every single time. The answer is actually think the, and you talked about situational awareness too. The more you know what's going on around you, the easier, easier the answer is.

• 50:32Dave Berke?

  And the only way to get situational awareness is to put yourself in those situations over and over and over again, so you can anticipate what you need to do.

• 50:39Jocko Willink?

  The idea for me is, and, and for you, it's what you just described as well. What I think you just described is, is you're going immediately back into the OODA loop to orient yourself to what's going on, decide what you're going to do next and act. But that orient piece that you're, once you've made your initial immediate action drill? Okay, cool. You're immediate, that's act, right? You just did an act. And now what are you going to do? You're going to orient yourself to where you are now, which is going to look around. For me, taking a step back, going to high port and looking around. If you, if I could get a young leader to do that, if I could get a young leader to do that,

• 51:18Jocko Willink?

  it was like I took them from, from having a garbage can over their head to standing on a mountaintop with thermal vision. That's what it seemed like. Because when you are wrapped up in that situation, you cannot see anything. You might as well have a garbage can over your head. If the minute you take a step back, you can see everything. So, once I could get someone to make that little transition, and sometimes it was pretty easy, sometimes it was pretty hard, you know, we many times gave the young leaders, you know,

• 52:01Jocko Willink?

  stick guns that didn't shoot. Here you go, man. I'm telling you, you cannot be shooting this thing. What you need to do is be looking around. But, once you make that trip, that's like the, so for me, the immediate action drill for, the immediate action drill for, I don't know what's happening, is step back, turn my head, physically look around, and assess what's happening, and then make the smallest move I can possibly make towards the direction I suspect is correct.

• 52:28Dave Berke?

  The beauty of what you just said is the immediate action in an airplane that I described earlier, that lift vector on and pull, that's what allows you to stick, to take a step back and think, because that maneuver, that movement requires no brain power. You just turn your airplane and pull back on the stick. It's like the first thing you ever learn to do, and that's what allows you to look around and see what's happening. We would do these training missions and we record everything. Cameras over your shoulder, cameras in the front of the plane, the crams are everywhere, and the radar screen is on the right side of almost every Jedi fluid, it's over on the right side, and you would see guys' heads to the point that their nose is almost on the screen, and they were staring at the one thing they thought was the most important thing, and literally not looking, not looking around. So, it's no different than being on the line.

• 53:12Jocko Willink?

  Target fixation.

• 53:13Dave Berke?

  It's target fixation, it's looking down the side of your weapon, and if you just take your, take, you can't take a step back in an airplane, so you could just lift your, just lift your head up and look around.

• 53:24Jocko Willink?

  What would you, so is that what you would tell the young pilots?

• 53:28Dave Berke?

  Literally.

• 53:28Jocko Willink?

  Those words?

• 53:29Dave Berke?

  Yeah, and I'd say, "Do you see your head in the reflection? You see your helmet? Where is it?" And he goes, "It's literally touching the radar." And all the pilots that are listening to this right now are laughing, because they know what that looks like, where your nose is on the screen, because you're staring at it, and you don't see anything else that's going on. That immediate action drill is a move that requires no real brain. It doesn't require you to do anything other than the maneuver, and during that time is when you take a step back, you look around the big picture, and then you make a decision from there.

• 53:54Jocko Willink?

  I mean, this is what I actually wrote on Seth Stone's Humvee window in front of his face.

• 54:01Dave Berke?

  With grease pencil?

• 54:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, with grease pencil. I wrote, "Step number one," I said, "Listen, man, this is what you're gonna do. Step number one, relax. Step number two, look around. Step number three, make a call."

• 54:13Jocko Willink?

  As soon as he, the next run, he followed those instructions. And that's exa- and it was like a total game changer.

• 54:21Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 54:21Jocko Willink?

  For, for, oh, instead of just staring at like the targets that just popped up down range, or the, where your guys' rounds were impacting, like, no, just take us, just relax, look around and, and make a call. So when you had a really good pilot, would their head just be constantly just all looking all around?

• 54:42Dave Berke?

  All the time, yeah, all the time. They, they never stop moving, they never stop looking around, and they talk very little. They don't say very much, they're just, and, and at some interval, they make one call, Sweden one two, flow north. And all of a sudden, this whole formation which, and, cause they would see whatever's happening, and he can make these massive amount of influences into what's going on in the fight, by talking less than everybody else, because he's spending ninety percent of the time just watching and go, there's some friction creating over here, nobody's responding to it, I'm gonna get my guys to maneuver the way I want them to.

• 55:14Jocko Willink?

  He's just detached, sitting up at altitude mentally, and going, okay, we're, we're gonna take a step back, and, oh, this is what we're gonna do now.

• 55:23Dave Berke?

  And that's why as, as a mission commander, we talk about, you know, dogfighting against another aircraft and how fun that is, and how much you, it's the last thing I really wanted to be doing as a leader. That's no different than being in hand-to-hand combat when you're trying to lead your battalion. It seems like a lot of fun, and, and don't get me wrong, if the opportunity, if you had to do it, you do it. If that's required, of course you do that. But really, the, the best leaders in an airplane were the ones that shot the least, said the least, saw the most, and made the right calls and right influence because they were detached the whole time.

• 55:55Jocko Willink?

  And this is completely reinforced by the fact that the American fighters in Korea, one of the biggest assets that they had was they had the clear cockpit.

• 56:07Dave Berke?

  That's exactly right. Yep.

• 56:08Jocko Willink?

  Like that made, you, you know, you think, oh, I'm sure that makes a deal. No, you don't get one of the deal that makes.

• 56:14Dave Berke?

  They all had perfect vision, and, and they could see more than the enemy could see. That was the difference maker. It certainly wasn't how good the machine was, we've talked about this a bunch of times, the machine wasn't that good at all. But the big advantage they had is they could see more. Literally see more. Could see things sooner, see things better, see things more clearly, and make decisions based on that and how much of an advantage that was.

• 56:33Jocko Willink?

  When you said perfect vision, are you talking about the actual 2020 vision of the pilots?

• 56:36Dave Berke?

  If you talk to those guys back in World War II in Korea, they were guys who like the guys with the most kills, they had like 2010. All those guys, one of the things they all had was they had incredible eyesight, literal vision.

• 56:47Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's that's right. Because I in Jaeger's book Jaeger, he talks about how he could see before anyone else could see, he'd go, we got bogies or whatever, three o'clock, and it would be the game changer.

• 56:58Dave Berke?

  Absolutely.

• 56:58Jocko Willink?

  Because now you're making maneuvers. My oldest daughter has 25 vision. And like the when she goes to get her eyesight checked, they bring other people into the room. They're like, watch this.

• 57:12Dave Berke?

  That's awesome.

• 57:12Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but I don't, I don't know. I don't, I think the generations of fighter pilots, well, it doesn't really matter that much anymore, right? Because you got radar.

• 57:19Dave Berke?

  It doesn't, that attribute doesn't matter as much. The visual acuity doesn't matter as much. But the principle is exactly the same. It's just what do you, what do you see? And you know what you don't see when you're staring at one thing? You don't see anything else.

• 57:34Jocko Willink?

  You know what you see when you're staring down your ACOG? You see nothing.

• 57:37Dave Berke?

  That's right.

• 57:38Jocko Willink?

  You think you see something and you see absolutely nothing. And from a leadership perspective, you're making some big mistakes. Back to the book, it fosters a climate where senior leaders know that their intent will be carried out. This is particularly true for First Battalion, Seventh Marines during Operation Desert Storm. As the battalion began breaching operations for the advance of the First Marine Division across the two the first two Iraqi mine belts, Marines were suddenly overwhelmed with hundreds upon hundreds of Iraqi Iraqis supporting sporting white flags who were trying to surrender. The number was so great that it threatened to stop the Marine advance. However, the battalion commander immediately recognized the situation, judged that the Iraqis were harmless and instructed the battalion not to stop to accept their surrender.

• 58:24Jocko Willink?

  It was precisely the type of local situation that the division commander wanted his commanders to recognize and use their own initiative to correct. Here the commanding officer who is closest to the situation and who understood the division's division commander's intent not to lose the momentum of the advance adapted to the situation. This adaptation resulted in the rapid breach of Iraqi defenses. I hope that they rewrite this book soon and that's a cool example, but the examples that they're going to get from Iraq and Afghanistan are going to be really awesome too.

• 58:55Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 58:56Jocko Willink?

  Conclusion, successful warfare is filled with examples of leaders adapting to changing situations. We must start to learn how to adapt now during our training.

• 59:10Jocko Willink?

  Leaders should value and encourage innovative thinking. Moreover, they should expect, they should expect creative thinking from their subordinates because it creates new opportunities.

• 59:24Jocko Willink?

  For adaptation to be effective, commanders must readily exploit the opportunities uncovered by subordinates. Commanders cannot remain tied to plans that blind them to fleeting opportunities. Commanders cannot remain tied to plans that blind them to fleeting opportunities. While making the best possible preparations, they must welcome and take advantage of unforeseen opportunities. Training now during our training. This was at the last muster, I had a revelation.

• 1:00:00Jocko Willink?

  Because there's a story that you talk about. When you experienced a female, a belligerent female Iraqi, basically.

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  What would you say she was doing to you physically moving on you? In a non-lethal way, but in a way that was disruptive to what you were trying to do.

• 1:00:25Dave Berke?

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:26Jocko Willink?

  And so you're in a building, you're doing a clearance. This was, this was really early in your deployment to Ramadi.

• 1:00:32Dave Berke?

  It's my first mission.

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  First mission and go ahead, tell us what happened.

• 1:00:35Dave Berke?

  Yeah, I was on my first mission. The mission was. We're gonna clear out an apartment complex and a main house. There's probably six or seven rooms.

• 1:00:42Jocko Willink?

  Where was it? Just out of curiosity.

• 1:00:44Dave Berke?

  To me.

• 1:00:45Jocko Willink?

  Got it.

• 1:00:45Dave Berke?

  Yeah, good times. So we cleared out this room, uh, cleared out all the rooms in the building and we had essentially accomplished our primary objective, which is clear everybody out, separated the men and the women to try to figure out if we could find the guy we're looking for. And they asked me to just go sit in the main courtyard, the main front of this, of this building and just secure the door.

• 1:01:04Jocko Willink?

  Are you with an army, uh, company or an army platoon?

• 1:01:08Dave Berke?

  National Guard platoon.

• 1:01:09Jocko Willink?

  National Guard platoon.

• 1:01:10Dave Berke?

  It's before that guard unit.

• 1:01:11Jocko Willink?

  So they're, just to, just to set this up a little bit. So they're the assault force. They're taking down a building and they got good deal Dave to go coming with them and run air, support if needed with your ankle team.

• 1:01:23Dave Berke?

  That, that's right. First mission I went on, these guys have been there almost a year. I went with them to support with air. Turns out when we got inside this building, there were more rooms than they thought. So I had to do some room clearances. So I wasn't expecting it. We did it. It was fine. Then I finished that up and I'm just sitting in the front open area of this building, thinking everybody is accounted for, everybody's secure. Down the stairs, probably 20 feet in front of me, an old Iraqi woman. She's probably in her seventies, maybe older. She's less than five feet tall. She's a tiny little thing. And she is screaming, pointing her finger, yelling at me. And I'm alone in this room because we think this room is secure. It's close to the outside. So I can talk to air and she starts coming at me and she's pointing her finger, screaming at me in Arabic. And she's not with her hands, but her, her body, she's so aggressive that she's, I'm backing up. She's moving me backwards.

• 1:02:08Dave Berke?

  Uh, and I literally don't know what to do. So I just start backing up, up against the wall.

• 1:02:13Jocko Willink?

  And then, then how did it conclude?

• 1:02:14Dave Berke?

  It concluded, she got to about, I don't know, maybe six or seven feet from me and over my right shoulder was the entrance to the outside and the platoon commander in charge of this whole thing, walked in. He either heard it, uh, or was just coming back in to see what's going on and he heard and he came in. And, uh, he literally just raised his weapon, screamed at her to stop and, and disrupted the situation. He was pretty aggressive and, and got her to stop and she stopped. That was it.

• 1:02:36Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:37Dave Berke?

  Uh, I was literally doing nothing. And I was, when you talk about, you described this really this, my little mental repertoire of all the things I had, all the resources available to me, I was out of ideas. I didn't know what to do. No weapon, not, I did not know what to do. So guess what? I didn't do anything.

• 1:02:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so just again, cuz cuz this might seem real obvious. When you when you've got a civilian woman coming at you, you can't, you're not gonna shoot her. You don't wanna hit her like she's 70 years old. And so what are you gonna do? How are you gonna handle the situation? It's a situation you'd never been in. So the connection that I made at the last muster, cuz I was listening to you tell that story. And what and I I tell a story about when I would set run training. We hired middle aged Arabic women to come and be role players and yell at people and, you know, be abrasive and be aggressive. And so why did I do that? Because I wanted the guys to be ready cuz I knew that that's what was gonna happen overseas. And so it's one of those things and if you've never seen it before,

• 1:03:37Jocko Willink?

  you don't know what to do. And or you may not know, you may not know what to do. Whereas all you need to see is a one time.

• 1:03:43Dave Berke?

  One time.

• 1:03:44Jocko Willink?

  I guarantee you never, I mean, you never had that problem again. You'd realize, oh, this is what this will make her respond.

• 1:03:49Dave Berke?

  And the solution wasn't that hard, but what you described, I immediately went through my head. Am I gonna shoot her? No. Am I gonna hit her? No. I went through those those two potential answers in about a half a second. The answer was no to both. There was no third step in my mind. I did not know what else to do. It literally could have been something if I knew the right word, put my hand up and took a step towards her, she would have stopped.

• 1:04:09Jocko Willink?

  Yep.

• 1:04:09Dave Berke?

  But I I didn't know what to do, so I didn't do anything.

• 1:04:12Jocko Willink?

  Yep. So that is why the training that you run as a leader, you gotta think about these little things and you might not think, there's plenty of people. Prior to us deploying to Iraq in 2003, there's plenty of trainers that would have said, oh, you guys will know what to do. No, actually, they they may think they know what to do. And and they might think the wrong thing as well. You know, the the the wrong thing could be, oh, if you, cuz you can hear people say this. Hey, if they're if they're closing with you, that's a threat you can engage. It's like, no, that's actually completely wrong. It's actually completely wrong. You need to think about what's going on. So the training that you do and putting people into situations that they don't expect. And I mean, here's the deal, man.

• 1:04:56Jocko Willink?

  When was the last time you were on the ground clearing buildings as a rifleman?

• 1:05:05Dave Berke?

  Never.

• 1:05:07Dave Berke?

  I did a, I've been an urban training at the basic school in 1994 for three days.

• 1:05:12Jocko Willink?

  So now this is nine years later, or eight years later.

• 1:05:15Dave Berke?

  Twelve years.

• 1:05:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, no, twelve years later. Twelve years later and you're clearing rooms like T.J. Hooker.

• 1:05:21Dave Berke?

  On my first mission, yeah, clearing rooms.

• 1:05:24Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And that's what we got to train for.

• 1:05:29Dave Berke?

  Yep.

• 1:05:29Jocko Willink?

  So you got to do that in the business world, too. You got to look and see what can you, and here's, here's the point that I wanted to make is you might not know to train somebody for, in this specific case, an Arabic woman that's going to come out to you. I knew that that's what we was going to deal with, especially once I came back from, from Ramadi and Baghdad. Like, I knew that that's what guys were going to be dealing with. But what situations can you put them in that just make them think?

• 1:05:54Dave Berke?

  Just make them think.

• 1:05:55Jocko Willink?

  Just make them think. That's what you want to do.

• 1:05:57Dave Berke?

  The truth is, what I didn't need was training to deal with Iraqi civilians coming at me. That's not the training I needed. What I needed to do was recognize that the chaotic environment that I'd been in the past, the lessons applied there, too. I needed to spend time thinking about what was this different environment going to look like? And what that I already knew and understood, could I leverage? And that's what I failed to do. Had I seen middle-aged Arabic women in training or not, that's not what I look back and say, that's what I regret. The regret for me was not recognizing, I'm going to be out of my comfort zone very early on. I've been out of my comfort zone before. I have to remember what that feels like and apply those same lessons. And I could have handled that situation a million different ways.

• 1:06:38Dave Berke?

  Not because I hadn't seen the exact same thing before, but because I didn't think about what it's going to feel like to be out of my comfort zone. Because to be quite honest with you, Jaco, it'd been a while since I was out of my comfort zone in an airplane. And I got pretty complacent with it. And I didn't think about what that was going to be like the very next time I, I was carrying a rifle clearing rooms. I just didn't think about it. And thank God it worked out on that first mission because I carried that with me the rest of the deployment. Because, believe me, I was in a lot more uncomfortable situations for this, for the next seven months. But I never found myself without understanding what to do moving forward, ever, because of that experience. I lucked out on that one, but like you said, it applies everywhere. That lesson fits everywhere in my life, in anybody's life.

• 1:07:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Jocko Willink?

  All right. Next chapter. Next chapter is called cooperating. Again, it's important to note that what we are saying is that the United States Marine Corps, one of, if not the finest whole fighting force that has ever been on the planet, has an entire chapter about tactics. In their book about tactics, there is an entire chapter that's called cooperating. And this is, you know, I, I talk about cooperating all the time. That is one of my laws of combat. I don't call it cooperating. I call it cover and move. But that's what it is.

• 1:08:09Jocko Willink?

  We are going to work together. That's what cover and move is. We are working together. So the importance of working together, the Marine Corps identifies it. They call it something different, but here we go. Here's a quote. Unity of command is coordinated action toward a common goal. It is cooperation. It is working together by all commanders toward the accomplishment of a common mission, which is imperative for complete and final success. Commanders must develop their staffs and subordinates, the desire to cooperate, not only among themselves, but with other elements of the command. And that's almost an exact quote from when we talk about cover and move. It's not just amongst your own team, but it's with every team that you're working with

• 1:08:52Jocko Willink?

  that you need to support or be supported by in order to accomplish your mission. And that's from Tactical Principles, a Navy manual. The other quote here is the first element of command and control is people. People who gather information, make decisions, take action, communicate and cooperate with one another in the accomplishment of a common goal. And that's from another Marine Corps pub called Command and Control. And we There's, there's people that talk about command or control and we're going to get into it, just so everyone knows, it's okay. You don't need to jump through the airwaves and

• 1:09:34Jocko Willink?

  come at us because I get that there's command or control, there's command and control, people talk about it. So, cover, move, talking about cooperation, everything that we do, everything that we have to do in tactics, gaining advantage and above all, achieving a decisive result, needs a team effort.

• 1:09:55Jocko Willink?

  And this is why, when I wrote down the laws of combat for the first time, cover, move is first. Because if you don't have a team, if you don't have cooperation, nothing else, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if you have a simple plan, doesn't matter if you prioritize and execute, doesn't matter if you have decentralized command, if you don't have teamwork working together, it's not going to matter. If efforts are not in harmony, results may be indecisive. For example, if the aviation combat elements' actions are not harmonized with those of ground combat element, they are likely, they are unlikely to have a decisive effect. If artillery support is not well coordinated with an infantry attack, combined arms synergy will not be achieved and the attack may fail. However, achieving this team effort is easier said than done. It requires rapidly maneuvering

• 1:10:39Jocko Willink?

  forces, often widely dispersed, to work together under the most adverse conditions.

• 1:10:48Jocko Willink?

  Control in combat. Because war is characterized by chaos, uncertainty, and rapid change, control quickly breaks down.

• 1:10:59Jocko Willink?

  It is probably a mistake to speak of control in combat.

• 1:11:05Jocko Willink?

  Think about that right there. Think about that right there. What the Marine Corps is saying is if you're talking about control in combat, you're probably wrong. It says it's probably a mistake.

• 1:11:16Dave Berke?

  Unless you're saying control is almost impossible, you shouldn't be talking about control in combat. I guess it's so hard to do.

• 1:11:22Jocko Willink?

  I remember the first times that I was, I had, I felt the loss of control. This is pretty early, like you go on a raid and you guys breach the door and they're going in. I'm not, I don't have control of that anymore. Like they're going. Whatever they're in there, I can't stop them anymore. I mean, I could come on the radio and, and, and call a, call an abort and you know, some of the guys will hear it. I can make a, but like, they're going. It's to try and control it is like a, is like a stretch, right? It's a reach.

• 1:11:56Jocko Willink?

  Marine Corps Publication 6 states that, given the nature of war, it is a delusion to think that we can be in control with any sort of certitude or precision. Now, look, I'm telling you, is it easy? If we go hit a target and there's no bad guys in there, I can control that thing all day long and everyone, everything's perfect and all the guys are doing what I told them to do. Big micromanager over here dictating every movement, that'll work. If, but that's not combat, right? It's a mission, but it's not combat. As anyone, next, next sentence. As anyone who has experienced combat will undoubtedly agree, it is impossible to control everything. Attempts to impose control

• 1:12:38Jocko Willink?

  also can easily undermine the initiative upon which the Marine Corps tactics depend. Marines can become hesitant. They may feel like they must wait for orders before acting. We are not likely to move faster or gain leverage over a competent opponent unless Marines at every level exercise initiative. The dilemma then is this. How do we achieve the goal of working together in harmony while exercising a more decentralized type of control? So there's a little dichotomy there. Working together in harmony, but decentralized command at the same time. JP and I were on a call with a client yesterday and they were talking about how they need, they're very, they're growing rapidly and they've got,

• 1:13:24Jocko Willink?

  you know, branches all over the place. And what they need is those branches to start acting, you know, on their own, they need to start using decentralized command. And, and JP kind of jumped in and said, hey, what, what is the messaging they're hearing from you? He said, because when he said, when I first got into Task Unit Bruiser, this is JP talking. When JP first got into Task Unit Bruiser, he was looking around going like, okay, I'm waiting for somebody to tell me what to do. And I was like, hey, bro. You need to just go do what you think you need to do as long as it's in line with what like what we're trying to make happen. Yeah. And you know, you can imagine JP 21 or 22 years old.

• 1:14:06Jocko Willink?

  I remember like the puzzled, kind of curious look on his face when I'm telling him just because he hadn't really experienced before, like, listen, I trust that you are going to make the right decision. You're going to make things happen. You, when you hear me say break contact, break con, you know what to do. Grab your fire team and make it happen. When you hear me say flank, I'm not going to tell you where to go, but you know, you know what I mean when I say flank. That means I want you to go on a straight murder spree right now. And JP liked that. Yeah. So, so that attitude has to come, you have to, it takes a little bit of getting used to. And people generally aren't used to it.

• 1:14:50Jocko Willink?

  And it takes a certain level of, I don't, I don't know what word to use. It takes a certain level of courage to think, okay, I've never done, I've never just had my boss say, yeah, just flank them. And gone and flank them. Look, there's parameters to flanking. If you flank and you move too far, you can get cut off, you can move into the field of friendly field of fire, you can, you can cause some real problems. But if you know what those parameters are, you have free rein to maneuver within those parameters. So, so that was a good point coming from JP to this client, like, have you explained to them that, listen, we're here, we are the central command of what's going on,

• 1:15:32Jocko Willink?

  but we are authorizing you fully to go out and straight up make things happen. And that was a, that was a mental jump that JP had to make. It probably took him 15 minutes to make it. Because he, what he recognized was I just took the shackles off of his body and more important, I took the shackles off of his brain to go and just get some. And that's something that you as a leader have to make sure that you're delivering that message to the troops so that they know they can do that.

• 1:16:05Dave Berke?

  And the confidence it takes a leader to be able to do that, that's significant too. Because your natural instinct, when you see things going wrong or you see friction starting to build is to start to tell people what to do. And this is flat out telling you, in a lot of cases, that's actually the worst thing you can possibly do. Because what will create in those people doing the work is hesitation and they'll freeze and they'll look over their shoulder, waiting for your guidance. And that could be a death sentence. That's a death sentence in business. It's a death sentence in combat. And it's actually what we want to do because we think we're helping. I want to, I want to get in there to help and it actually takes a ton of confidence as a leader. And you talked about that feeling of, of losing control. I remember getting to Ramadi and I had this vision of how it was going to be. Soon as I got there, I had to break up my teams. I couldn't operate as a 13 man team. There was too much to do.

• 1:16:50Dave Berke?

  And I remember probably day three, one of my junior lieutenant or captain got in his Humvee with his four guys and drove away. And I was standing there and I watched the vehicle drive. I'm like, high five, go get some. And as soon as he left, I, and there's a moment of, I have, I won't talk to him until he comes back.

• 1:17:07Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I did that, the same exact thing. We split up into five different elements. And the next thing I know, I'm sending a junior officer, a new guy, junior officer that's never been on deployment before. Okay. He's got an, he's got a E6 with him. That's got some experience, but hey, man, good luck. Go get some. And that is definitely something that you have to, it's, it's, it's, it's hard.

• 1:17:32Dave Berke?

  It's hard, man.

• 1:17:34Jocko Willink?

  It's hard. Going back to the book, cooperation, the beginning of the answer lies in cooperation. So the answer that they're talking about is, is how do we, how do we achieve the goal of working together in harmony? While exercising a more decentralized type of control. The beginning of the answer lies in cooperation. We define cooperation as a union of self-discipline and initiative in a pursuit of a common goal. Unfortunately, they didn't think of the word dichotomy in the Marine Corps because that's what they're talking about. The union of self-discipline and initiative in pursuit of a common goal. Cooperation can be viewed as a component of control. Control can easily, can generally be divided into two types, centralized and decentralized.

• 1:18:15Jocko Willink?

  Centralized control tends to be one, in one direction and works from the top down. Someone at a higher level determines what subordinates will and will not do. Centralized control makes us conform to higher dictates because one person does the thinking for the entire organization. The person in control. In contrast, decentralized control works from the bottom up. Command is exercised, command is the exercise of authority and guidance. And control is felt as feedback about the effects of action taken. Because thinking is required at all levels. Feedback allows the commander to adapt to changing circumstances and to command subsequent action.

• 1:18:59Jocko Willink?

  Cooperation is required in decentralized control. Subordinates work together laterally and from the bottom up to accomplish tasks that fulfill the commander's intent. Cooperation means we take the initiative to help those around us accomplish our shared mission.

• 1:19:17Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:19:19Dave Berke?

  Think about what that means is it's it's saying that the command and control, the definition of control in that decentralized command is control is control is bottom up, the control comes up to the commander, not from the commander down, you know, the command, the mission that can be top down, but the control and how many leaders we work with where that is just completely counterintuitive of how things actually should operate is the control comes from the bottom, from the point of friction up to the leadership. So they can incorporate all that and make big picture changes for the team.

• 1:19:48Jocko Willink?

  Once everyone understands what the commander's intent is, what the broad guidance is, then yes, you are, you, you go. You go and make it happen. And the control, this is what I thought you were going to say, this is what I thought you were going to emphasize because it is an amazing statement. The control that we place upon the troops, the control, the what controls them is that they're working together. That's what controls them is that they're working together. So they can't, they, what stops them from going off in some other direction is that they're working together. They're covering and moving for each other. If we don't cover and move for each other, if, if we decide we're not going to cooperate, we're not going to cover and move. That means Dave is taking his element and going somewhere where I can no longer support you.

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  And that can happen. So what controls us is that we are working together. Our cooperation is what controls us. That's incredible.

• 1:20:43Jocko Willink?

  Cooperation is essential to Marine Corps tactics. The flight leader and wingman work on the basis of cooperation. These pilots cooperate with the infantry they support. It's just so everyone knows, you could easily just replace these with cover and move. The flight leader and the wingman work on the basis of cover and move. These pilots cover and move with the infantry they support. Two infantry units fighting side by side, cover and move for each other. A mobile combat service support detachment and the mechanized force it supports, cover and move, cooperate. We all work together far more effectively when we communicate laterally than when we communicate only through higher headquarters and respond only to centralized direction.

• 1:21:26Jocko Willink?

  As an ancillary benefit, we relieve our overloaded communication networks. So yeah, talk to your peers, talk to the people next to you. Not just, "Hey, I'm gonna tell the boss on you, tell him to give you some direction." Work out the problems amongst yourselves. The history of tactics is filled with examples where cooperation made the difference and control could not. One such example occurred during an Iraqi counterattack in Operation Desert Storm. Black smoke from a burning, from burning oil wells turned the day into night. A UH-1 Huey pilot used his night vision equipment to lead flights of Cobras through the near zero visibility to attack Iraqi armored vehicles.

• 1:22:10Jocko Willink?

  The specially equipped Huey designated targets so that the Cobras could engage them at near point blank range with anti-armored hellfire missiles. For nearly 10 hours, the Huey pilot led flight after flight into the pitched battle, earning the Navy Cross for heroism. The pilots worked together to destroy targets the Huey could not engage and the Cobra could not see. This example shows what cooperation can accomplish, cover and move. The next section, oddly enough, is called "Discipline."

• 1:22:49Jocko Willink?

  Discipline. Cooperation can harmonize efforts and get everyone to work together without centralized control that undermines initiative. However, it raises a more fundamental question. How do we prepare people to cooperate when the going gets tough? The answer is discipline. There is only one kind of discipline, perfect discipline. If you do not enforce and maintain discipline, you are potential murderers. In the face of adversity and difficulty, discipline enables individuals to pursue what is best for those around them, their unit, and the Marine Corps. Notice that no part of that talked about pursuing what is best for the person themselves.

• 1:23:34Dave Berke?

  For you individually, yeah.

• 1:23:35Jocko Willink?

  Discipline enables individuals to pursue what is best for those around them, their unit, and the Marine Corps. Individuals and units might have the desire, but without discipline, they will be unable to accomplish the most difficult tasks in combat. Operating faster than the enemy, gaining advantage, generating decisive force, and achieving decisive results. In combat, instant obedience to orders is crucial. Orders may not be popular, but there comes a point where they must be carried out without question. Discipline is a result of training. In training for war, discipline should be firm but fair. The Marine Corps is known as a highly disciplined fighting force. And I gotta pause.

• 1:24:17Jocko Willink?

  So, that instant obedience to orders being crucial, that's something that I always have to discuss with companies, with guys in the military, with guys in the teams. Like, what does that actually mean? And there's a whole... I mean, it's not that complicated. Here's the deal. When you see something and you're being told to do something, and it makes sense, you do it, and you do it quick. If there's something that is going... If this is a horrible decision that's coming at you, you might need to push back on that decision. Up the chain of command, yes, I'm saying that. Even in the Marine Corps, I'm telling you.

• 1:25:00Jocko Willink?

  If, if you're being told to enter a building and you see an IED in the doorway of the building, you should not instantly obey this order.

• 1:25:12Jocko Willink?

  That's, that's, your boss doesn't want you to do that. Your platoon commander, your platoon sergeant does not want you to do that. So, the instant obedience to orders, it's, it's crucial, but we also need to remember that there isn't a broad order that you've been told, right? There's a broad commander's intent. The commander's intent is not to get your men killed doing something stupid, right? The overlying order is, hey, we're gonna accomplish this, this larger mission. And the tactical call that's being made at this point in time, if it doesn't support that overall broader mission, then you should not do it. Now, there's a whole

• 1:26:00Jocko Willink?

  plethora of, of situations that can unfold. So, if I'm telling Dave to enter that building and there's an IED and I'm the guy in charge and I'm telling Dave that there's an IED in the front yard, or I'm telling you to enter a building and there's an ID in the door, right, right? And you, you tell me, no, that's a bad call, Jaco. I, I, I'm not now going to say, shut up, Dave, and do what I told you to do. I'm gonna say, no, we need you in that building. And you're gonna say, look, no, not a good call. You might not have time to tell me there's an ID. You might just say, no, not a good call. Luckily, you and I have built a relationship of trust where you now, when you tell me you can't do something that I'm telling you to do, I know the only reason possible that you are

• 1:26:43Jocko Willink?

  not doing what I told you to do is because it is not possible to do, or it's stupid.

• 1:26:48Jocko Willink?

  And then I'm gonna, this is, this is a weird thing that I have trouble articulating. Now, I'm actually gonna go, instead of telling you what to do, I, I'm gonna tell you why it was I wanted you to do it. Hey, well, what we need is to strong point a building because we're getting attacked. And now you look at me, okay, got that. I can do that. I'm gonna strong point this other building over here. And you go do it. And then you bring us there. So, instant obedience to orders, that makes sense, is true. Remember that there are broad orders that you need to follow out. Now, there could be times where, and you know, when you start talking about World War II, there was times where it's like, hey, you need to charge that machine gun nest.

• 1:27:31Jocko Willink?

  And here's what's gonna happen. You charge that machine gun nest with your squad and you're gonna lose half of them.

• 1:27:39Dave Berke?

  Right.

• 1:27:40Jocko Willink?

  If you don't do that, this whole company is gonna get killed because we're all gonna sit here. So, so, so guess what happens then? When you tell me you're gonna go and I say, "Hey, man, that's an elevated bunker position," and you look at me and go, "Listen, that's the only way we get off this beach," then guess what I do? Instant obedience to orders and we're gonna go get it done. So, this isn't black and white. There, you have to think and these are important.

• 1:28:10Dave Berke?

  There's also a thread here. There's so, there's so many things to talk about. You could talk about this for days, but that idea of perfect discipline, the immediate response to my orders, it's built on a depth and a level of trust that's so powerful that the obedience isn't out of fear of not responding to you telling me what to do. The obedience is the recognition that what he's asking me to do is actually what's in the best interest of like the, whatever it is, this entire team that we're talking about. And the examples, and if you go deep and deep, the stories of, of guys charging machine guns nests weren't waiting for the commander to come down and say, "Charge the machine gun nest." You're

• 1:28:53Dave Berke?

  actually, if you have that level of trust, you are so far out in front. I don't need Jaco to tell me that because I actually know, you may, I know you may come down and tell, but I know that's gonna happen before you come down and tell me, "Men, get online. We are gonna charge this machine gun nest." When they're talking about this, this immediate response to orders, don't think of it as, "You do what I say or this is the consequence that's gonna happen to you." It's the recognition that what I'm asking you to do immediately right now is what is in the best interest of everybody, to include you, although I might, as a commander, you might have to make that decision of, "I'm gonna, there's gonna be loss here. I'm gonna lose some of my men to do that." And that burden of doing

• 1:29:33Dave Berke?

  that, think about how much trust is required from the leadership side to cultivate a response from my subordinates who know their men are gonna die. And perfect discipline is that description of- There's no other way for us to be successful unless we do this. And if I actually push back and say no, what I really would like to be able to do is say, "No, I'm doing this instead," which is going to accomplish what you asked. So I don't have to take the time to talk to you about it in real time. That comment, if people think Marine Corps people follow orders, the self-discipline that's imposed on those Marines at that age, it only works with trust up and down the chain of command

• 1:30:15Dave Berke?

  that is so much more powerful than the words can really describe and how important that is.

• 1:30:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:24Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The Marine Corps is known as a highly disciplined fighting force. Discipline is one of the strengths that makes Marines equally effective assaulting a beach, conducting a non-combatant evacuation operation, fighting a fire, or guarding our embassies. Nonetheless, discipline is founded not only on obedience, but also on a sense of duty. The discipline needed for cooperation comes from two sources: imposed discipline and self-discipline. The first source, imposed discipline, is more often associated with the term military discipline. Imposed discipline, typified by the Prussian approach, is characterized by instant obedience to orders. External in nature, it ensures compliance with established procedures,

• 1:31:09Jocko Willink?

  rules, and guidance and direction from above. It means to achieve efficiency and accomplishment of routine duties or drills. In its most extreme form, it can be rigid, paralyzing, and destructive of initiative. Imposed discipline also may make units vulnerable to the effects of chaos and uncertainty and unable to cooperate with one another. So that idea that we just talked about, that we were trying to dispel, that you and I both just tried to dispel, well, they're in the process now of dispelling it in this book.

• 1:31:41Dave Berke?

  Totally.

• 1:31:42Jocko Willink?

  By saying that this idea of imposed discipline is not the kind that we're talking about.

• 1:31:49Dave Berke?

  Imposed discipline will prevent the things you have to do, which is be creative, operate in it. It's the thing that undermines what they just said you have to do, is this imposed discipline.

• 1:31:58Jocko Willink?

  And I had to break this out for young Mark in Way of the Warrior Kid. Explain the difference between imposed discipline and self-discipline.

• 1:32:10Jocko Willink?

  Carrying on, self-discipline is an internal force that morally obligates all Marines to do what they know is right. In this case, to cooperate with every other Marine in pursuit of a common goal. The obligation is internal in each individual. It is something he or she feels powerfully about. Coupled with a sense of camaraderie and esprit de corps, it pulls from within and causes Marines to do everything they can for fellow Marines. At the unit level, this force can be felt as morale. No system of tactics can lead to victory when the morale of an army is bad.

• 1:32:57Jocko Willink?

  Self-discipline can be seen in successful athletic teams as well as military units. Team players instinctively back up their teammates. In baseball, the outfielders cover on fly balls. In hockey, rarely does only one player rush the goal. In football, offensive linemen do not stand by idly on a pass play if no defensive player faces them. They may block the first defender they can find. They block the first defender they can find. Members of squads and fire teams also work together as teams to accomplish tasks and take care of each other. This cooperation among teammates cannot be enforced by a coach or a leader. It depends upon the self-discipline of the individuals.

• 1:33:38Jocko Willink?

  Marine discipline is the self-discipline of a successful team, not just the imposed discipline of the army of Frederick the Great. For Marines, military discipline means accepting personal responsibility.

• 1:33:56Jocko Willink?

  I think I wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. Self-discipline will not allow us to shirk responsibility or blame others. I think I wrote a book called Extreme Ownership.

• 1:34:08Jocko Willink?

  A discipline failure, often a failure to act, is a personal failure. Our form of discipline is also absolute. There is no time off. Someone else may be in charge, but that does not absolve us from the responsibility to, to do everything we can to achieve the common goal. It does not reduce our responsibility to cooperate with fellow Marines in our unit and beyond.

• 1:34:37Jocko Willink?

  This discipline is a mindset, a way of thinking and behaving. It runs through everything that we do. It is much a part of garrison life as of combat. We also carry this sense of personal responsibility and duty to contribute into our private lives. We see it whenever off-duty Marines take the initiative to help at the scene of an accident, act as leaders in their communities, or in other ways do more than their share.

• 1:35:09Jocko Willink?

  They do so because of something inward, not because they are compelled by control.

• 1:35:16Jocko Willink?

  That something is self-discipline, and it is not limited to one aspect of life.

• 1:35:27Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:35:31Dave Berke?

  Those two pages, man, are...

• 1:35:37Dave Berke?

  It is so succinct and so straightforward, the way they describe what Marine discipline is and where it applies.

• 1:35:46Dave Berke?

  All the time, everywhere, without exception, and you are wholly responsible for the success of everybody else around you, based on your individual, individual actions, and that applies everywhere in your life.

• 1:35:57Jocko Willink?

  It took me three books to, to explain that.

• 1:36:02Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Just crystal clear. Crystal clear. It concludes here, "Modern tactics rely on cooperation. Cooperation in turn depends on discipline. Discipline consists of both imposed discipline and self-discipline. As leaders of Marines, we must create a climate in which self-discipline and a high level of initiative can flourish within the boundaries of military discipline." There's the dichotomy right there.

• 1:36:32Jocko Willink?

  Initiative can flourish within the boundaries of military discipline. That's what you want. You know, I always use the word parameters when I'm talking about decentralized command. Like as long, when, when, when I give you the parameters, you could do whatever you want inside those parameters. That's what they're talking about. You do whatever you want within the boundaries of military discipline. This climate depends on us. Words are easy. Anyone can give an occasional pep talk on the merits of self-discipline. Marines judge actions, not words, and respond positively by leadership, to leadership by example. If the leader creates a climate where perfect discipline is expected and demonstrated,

• 1:37:18Jocko Willink?

  cooperation will follow.

• 1:37:24Jocko Willink?

  And discipline is always a good note to end on.

• 1:37:29Jocko Willink?

  Actions, not word, not words, create discipline.

• 1:37:36Jocko Willink?

  So

• 1:37:38Jocko Willink?

  that was two more chapters. What do we do? Not bad. Little shorter.

• 1:37:45Jocko Willink?

  Two more chapters. We got two more to go and we'll dig into those on the next podcasts.

• 1:37:53Jocko Willink?

  Discipline, once again, something that we hear a lot about, something that I talk about a lot.

• 1:38:01Jocko Willink?

  The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual.

• 1:38:05Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad I wrote that when I did, because it would be hard for me to write it right now and not just say, hey, just go read this book.

• 1:38:16Jocko Willink?

  Discipline is a critical factor and it allows us to win on the battlefield and it allows us to really win everywhere, in health, in business, in fitness, in jujitsu, in life. You gotta, gotta maintain the discipline.

• 1:38:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:38:34Jocko Willink?

  Echo Charles.

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 1:38:36Jocko Willink?

  Speaking of discipline. Now that you are. Back from your. Highly undisciplined vacation.

• 1:38:45Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:38:45Jocko Willink?

  In Hawaii.

• 1:38:46Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  Is that, is that wrong?

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  Yes, that is wrong.

• 1:38:50Jocko Willink?

  Oh, you were highly disciplined.

• 1:38:51Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. It was quasi-discipline.

• 1:38:53Jocko Willink?

  Quasi-discipline.

• 1:38:54Speaker 02

  You know, kinda, you know, here and there.

• 1:38:55Jocko Willink?

  I didn't even know that was a thing.

• 1:38:57Speaker 02

  I don't think that is a thing. I think that that's.

• 1:38:59Jocko Willink?

  In my world, it's not a thing.

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  Actually, technically, I think that's a counter, what do you call it?

• 1:39:03Jocko Willink?

  Uh, uh, Dave, is there any sections on quasi-discipline?

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  There is only one kind of discipline.

• 1:39:08Jocko Willink?

  And it's not quasi-discipline?

• 1:39:10Speaker 02

  It is not quasi-discipline. The quasi kinda makes it antiquated, right? Because it's either you're disciplined or you're not disciplined, right?

• 1:39:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:17Speaker 02

  In fact, quasi-discipline is essentially undisciplined.

• 1:39:20Jocko Willink?

  That's what I, okay, so you see where I'm coming from.

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:22Jocko Willink?

  So your trip to Hawaii was essentially undisciplined, not quasi-disciplined.

• 1:39:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you're correct on that.

• 1:39:28Jocko Willink?

  Now, maybe you said that you had some moments of discipline in there.

• 1:39:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:39:31Jocko Willink?

  You made, you did some work.

• 1:39:33Speaker 02

  Did some work, did some training, did some, yeah.

• 1:39:35Jocko Willink?

  You trained some of the jiu-jitsu?

• 1:39:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:39:37Jocko Willink?

  Oh. That stinks.

• 1:39:39Speaker 02

  But I saw some jiu-jitsu guys, so, you know, that's, that's something.

• 1:39:43Jocko Willink?

  All right. Well, since the rest of us are trying to maintain our discipline, do you have any? Recommendations?

• 1:39:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:50Jocko Willink?

  On how we might be able to do that?

• 1:39:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll talk about jiu-jitsu. That's a good way to maintain discipline. So jiu-jitsu is one of those, what do you call, you could call it a dichotomy, because you have to have discipline to do jiu-jitsu, and jiu-jitsu will. Kinda give you. Discipline. Or it'll prompt.

• 1:40:06Jocko Willink?

  I thought you were gonna say, if you do jiu-jitsu, you're gonna have to have creativity.

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  Yes, that too, for sure. Oh, yeah. Full-on metaphor for life. In fact.

• 1:40:15Speaker 02

  Good deal, Dave Berke here, talking about, you know, in the airplane. Right? How you close the distance or whatever. So jiu-jitsu is one of those things. When you first learn self-defense, Jiu-Jitsu, especially from the Gracie, that Gracie way, it's like there's three zones. There's the green zone, which is like you're out of range essentially. Then there's the other green zone when you're like too close. Cause you can't take effective punches, all this stuff, same thing, right? Then there's that red zone. So when you find yourself in your case, when you're, what you're talking about, when you find yourself in that red zone, kinda, you know, where you gotta react, you go to one of the green zones. In a plane, obviously to get to the far green zone is gonna take way more time, so it doesn't seem like the logical thing.

• 1:40:54Jocko Willink?

  And you're at huge risk.

• 1:40:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:40:56Jocko Willink?

  You're trying to get to the far greens now.

• 1:40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like unrealistic. In fact, you gotta essentially travel through the whole red zone to get to that grid, same thing with Jiu-Jitsu. If you're in the red zone, then again, I mean, it's easier to get out of distance than it would, in a fighting situation than it would be in an airplane.

• 1:41:11Dave Berke?

  No, you got it right. There's, there's layer, there's boundaries there, and at different places, you'll do different things. That thing I described doesn't apply. If you're at 25 miles away, you have dis- different responses. You're, you're spot on, man.

• 1:41:21Speaker 02

  So on both of them, to get too close to be in range is the safe thing to do. It's not as intuitive, you know, like if I'm taking punches.

• 1:41:31Jocko Willink?

  Unless you can run.

• 1:41:33Dave Berke?

  Yep.

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:34Jocko Willink?

  But you gotta be at 25 miles to be able to run.

• 1:41:38Dave Berke?

  The bottom line is, you gotta, well, you just have to know where you are. It may be in a, in a fight, three feet or five. There's a range, and you have to know if you're inside or outside that range. Whatever the range is, it's certainly different than an airplane than in two people fighting. But you actually have to know where you are, cause if you make a decision inside of that range, you'll get yourself killed. If you try to run in an airplane and you're at a place where you can't, you'll die, period. No different. And if you're inside that, that range and you try to close the distance, that will actually keep you alive by getting closer.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:42:05Dave Berke?

  Uh, you just have to know where you are.

• 1:42:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, and when you're untrained, it doesn't seem that obvious. Cause when I'm, look, I'm fighting with Dave Berke, he's punching me in the face, my first instinct isn't to go towards those punches to the inside, you see what I'm saying? I mean, there's more to the training.

• 1:42:19Jocko Willink?

  There, there definitely, that kind of is an instinct, or is that a training thing?

• 1:42:23Speaker 02

  No, man, you try punch an untrained person in the face, they're not only are they gonna go away, they're gonna turn away, they're gonna turn their back, they're gonna run away, just instinctually, for sure, but if they have some training or whatever, then yeah.

• 1:42:34Jocko Willink?

  Cause you see in the cage or in the ring, as soon as someone starts getting hit, they know that they need to get closer.

• 1:42:40Speaker 02

  That's fully trained though.

• 1:42:41Jocko Willink?

  Occasionally, you'll see someone trying to run away, even in the cage, even in like an MMA actual fight, someone will try and get away.

• 1:42:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:48Jocko Willink?

  Occasionally.

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. But either way, the guy who goes in and closes the distance when they're in trouble, that's a trained person.

• 1:42:55Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, true.

• 1:42:55Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:42:56Jocko Willink?

  Hundred percent. Hundred percent.

• 1:42:59Speaker 02

  Thousand instinctive declaration.

• 1:43:02Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:43:02Speaker 02

  That number.

• 1:43:03Jocko Willink?

  So you were talking ninety something percent? High.

• 1:43:05Speaker 02

  Realistically, it's high. I think hundred percent, off the bat.

• 1:43:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, you could be right.

• 1:43:10Speaker 02

  Everybody, like who untrained could you ever name?

• 1:43:13Jocko Willink?

  That's true, cause I'm thinking, cause what I'm thinking of is like, oh, you got some kid that wrestled for two years in junior high school, when he starts getting hit, he's, he, he could very well close the distance.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, trained.

• 1:43:23Jocko Willink?

  But he's trained, yeah.

• 1:43:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:43:25Jocko Willink?

  Good point.

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  Then again, what, what do I know? That's what it seems like.

• 1:43:28Jocko Willink?

  Isn't it weird that your, your intuition could be just wrong?

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they're supposed to.

• 1:43:34Jocko Willink?

  And you learn that a lot in jiu-jitsu, like in jiu-jitsu, you go, man, this was a bad decision I just made. It seemed like a good idea, it was not.

• 1:43:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would think that like in like the natural world, that the intuition is gonna be correct. That's what I think.

• 1:43:49Jocko Willink?

  But I'm saying it's not, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  No, but it, but it's not when you're dealing with trained individuals, like basically manufactured scenarios, you know, and how, however chaotic the scenario is.

• 1:44:00Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying you take two humans that grew up on deserted islands with no, in the wild?

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, Dave starts like being aggressive towards me in one way or another, where it makes me uncomfortable, oh, I'm leaving, hundred percent. Even if he doesn't even throw punches, he just starts getting aggressive, oh, I'm leaving, really? What do you call it, fight or flight, right? Flight is like one of them. He starts punching me in the face, oh, I'm leaving. I can get away from those punches or whatever, but if he's trained or if he knows I'm gonna leave, ooh, there becomes the training. See what I'm saying? I'm trained, I know he's gonna leave or some, I've been through that experience, see what I'm saying?

• 1:44:37Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I just know that sometimes my instincts are really bad.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, mine too. Probably like 99% of the time.

• 1:44:45Jocko Willink?

  Check.

• 1:44:46Speaker 02

  Nonetheless.

• 1:44:47Jocko Willink?

  So, speaking of jujitsu.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, take jujitsu, you will get good instincts trained into you. Because they become instincts, right?

• 1:44:53Jocko Willink?

  They'll become instincts, yeah.

• 1:44:54Speaker 02

  You know, ingrained into you, nonetheless.

• 1:44:57Jocko Willink?

  There's nothing better. You know what I have an instinct for? And I don't mean this to be, I'm not trying to attack you right now, like verbally. But my instinct is to grab you in a guillotine. Like, my hand just goes there. I do not think about it.

• 1:45:13Speaker 02

  Oh, when we're training.

• 1:45:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, for real. Like, when we're training, for real, I just have you in a guillotine. I'm like, boo boo, we're rolling, and then boom.

• 1:45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:45:20Jocko Willink?

  I don't know what happened, boom, got you in a guillotine.

• 1:45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, well.

• 1:45:23Jocko Willink?

  I'm not saying you're gonna tap, but I'm saying it's there.

• 1:45:25Speaker 02

  Yes, I agree, yeah, that is one of the things, for sure. Nonetheless, when everyone starts jujitsu, they're gonna need what?

• 1:45:34Jocko Willink?

  A gi.

• 1:45:34Speaker 02

  A gi, a rash guard, and the desire to train, really? That's what it comes down to. Oh, and a place to train. And people to train with, essentially, because you can't.

• 1:45:44Jocko Willink?

  That's the big drawback from jujitsu, you need another human.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  Yes, but as far as the gi's and the rash guards, what kind of gi's you gonna get? Because that's still a question. It's still a question.

• 1:45:53Jocko Willink?

  There shouldn't be a question.

• 1:45:53Speaker 02

  Way less prevalent now, but if you don't know, you get an origin gi. Where do you get them from? Originmain.com. Dave Berke, do you have an origin gi?

• 1:46:03Dave Berke?

  I have two origin gi's. I use them all the time.

• 1:46:06Jocko Willink?

  How many gi's do you have?

• 1:46:07Dave Berke?

  Two. That one, they use the phrase 100%. That applies to the number of gi's that I have that are origin gi's.

• 1:46:15Speaker 02

  Well, good, got some rash guards in there as well. Um, those are good ones. Also jeans, American denim.

• 1:46:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, American denim, made in America, made by the team.

• 1:46:28Jocko Willink?

  Up in Maine.

• 1:46:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, those are good. Surprisingly fashionable, not overly fashionable.

• 1:46:34Jocko Willink?

  Hmm, that would be a, that would be a horrible thing.

• 1:46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:38Jocko Willink?

  If we started venturing into, well, then that, that would have to come from Pete, who can be a little bit more overly fashionable.

• 1:46:45Speaker 02

  Here's the thing about Pete though, he, he's from Maine, so Maine is not exactly the fashion hub of the United States. You see what I'm saying? Not exactly. I'm not like, you know, disparaging his fashion sense. I'm not.

• 1:46:58Jocko Willink?

  So you're saying relative to the world, relative to LA, New York and Paris.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you go right in the middle of Paris, yes, and you say, hey, guys.

• 1:47:08Jocko Willink?

  Pete has no fashion sense if he's in Paris is what I'm hearing.

• 1:47:11Speaker 02

  Correct. Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.

• 1:47:13Jocko Willink?

  Farmington, Maine. He's kinda, he's kinda stylish.

• 1:47:17Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. Which to me is perfect.

• 1:47:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:20Speaker 02

  It, it winds up to be perfect because it's on the milder side of.

• 1:47:23Jocko Willink?

  He's like straight from Paris.

• 1:47:26Jocko Willink?

  In my house, he's like a guy from Paris or a guy from New York.

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:31Jocko Willink?

  He's walking off the catwalk into my living room. That's what I see.

• 1:47:35Speaker 02

  Well, you got the jeans, so boom, you're in that.

• 1:47:37Jocko Willink?

  Now that's what I'm saying. Luckily, the jeans are, are, they're, they're functional is the deal.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:44Jocko Willink?

  They're straight functional.

• 1:47:46Speaker 02

  And Choco, you look good in them. Let's face it.

• 1:47:48Jocko Willink?

  Well, I'm not over here looking at me or other people.

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  I'm looking at you, bro. You're the man.

• 1:47:55Jocko Willink?

  Hey, got a bunch of other stuff on there. T-shirts, joggers, which Echo likes. I, I cannot wear joggers.

• 1:48:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's too far for you. Hundred percent.

• 1:48:06Jocko Willink?

  And, and then there's also supplements.

• 1:48:08Speaker 02

  Choco supplement.

• 1:48:09Jocko Willink?

  Dave, how does your daughter like, how does your oldest daughter like strawberry milk?

• 1:48:17Dave Berke?

  It's funny you ask. We were actually talking about this the other day. I was describing on the last podcast how good strawberry milk tasted and I was trying to use, find the right words.

• 1:48:27Dave Berke?

  So I give my son strawberry mulk.

• 1:48:28Jocko Willink?

  Mm hmm. And he's.

• 1:48:31Dave Berke?

  He's five.

• 1:48:31Jocko Willink?

  Five, okay.

• 1:48:32Dave Berke?

  He likes mulk. It's good for him.

• 1:48:34Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:34Dave Berke?

  You know, he's got a bit of a sweet tooth, so we're not doing Nestle Quicker and that crap. We don't do it, so.

• 1:48:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, because you don't want to poison your own children?

• 1:48:40Dave Berke?

  No, I don't. I love my kids and I don't want to poison them. Uh, and they don't have that as a friend. He's never had it, so he doesn't know. He just knows the stuff tastes good. My daughter, my oldest daughter snagged, took the bottle from him, slid it off the table towards her. I was sitting across from her. We weren't talking, I was just watching her. She took the bottle, drank a sip of his strawberry mulk. And she closed her eyes and looked up at the sky with her eyes closed and just said, to her, to herself, it's so good. That's when I'm like, that's when I knew that how, that's how I feel about strawberry milk is what she said to herself about how good it is. It is, it is that good.

• 1:49:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and the strawberry seems to be to many people, kind of the, the, the top of the taste pyramid. I will say this, though. I can go two strawberries, maybe three. Now, I, I did go on like a full on strawberry rampage when it first came out.

• 1:49:37Dave Berke?

  You're talking about the, the adult?

• 1:49:39Jocko Willink?

  The adult. The regular. The kids one is delicious too.

• 1:49:42Dave Berke?

  Yes.

• 1:49:42Jocko Willink?

  Okay. But the, the adult strawberry mulk, I went on like a three week rampage of just strawberry. And now I'm back to it's in the rotation. It's, it's like two strawberries, mint, strawberry, peanut butter.

• 1:49:57Dave Berke?

  I'm probably a month behind, I think I got, I got about a month behind you.

• 1:50:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so you're just.

• 1:50:01Dave Berke?

  So actually today on the way here, I went back to mint, had a double scoop of mint on the way.

• 1:50:07Jocko Willink?

  Double scoop hitter.

• 1:50:08Dave Berke?

  And I was reminded.

• 1:50:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:10Dave Berke?

  The mint was so good, man. It was so good. So I have finally just come off the exclusive strawberry train.

• 1:50:17Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Dave Berke?

  Not as, strawberry's still good to go, but.

• 1:50:20Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:50:20Dave Berke?

  I was reminded of how good the mint was today.

• 1:50:23Jocko Willink?

  You know what the cool thing is? This isn't like being married. You didn't get married to strawberry. Like you could, the strawberry tastes good, but you can still just get that mint back on if you want to. Get that little, get that little peanut butter hitter. The one scoop peanut, if you get the one scoop peanut butter, I'm talking that thing is just a little bit of, that'll tide you over. So that's the mulk. You can get some of that mulk. Discipline, go. This you you Dave, each time you've come on this podcast, the past three straight podcasts, I see you doing something little ritualistic scenario going on over there before you you put something in your mouth, you swallow it. What is that all about?

• 1:51:03Dave Berke?

  That's the the discipline go

• 1:51:08Dave Berke?

  to prep me for having my head in the game, which I want on this podcast. Actually, I want to be in the game all the time. To be honest with you, I can't think of any place where I don't want to really be in the game other than getting ready to go to bed.

• 1:51:21Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:22Dave Berke?

  So the discipline go pills.

• 1:51:26Dave Berke?

  If I'm going to do something that requires me to think, I'm taking them.

• 1:51:29Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:30Dave Berke?

  To include this podcast.

• 1:51:31Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, it's it. You can feel it without question. You can feel it.

• 1:51:35Dave Berke?

  But it's it's subtle too. It doesn't like it's not like getting hit in the head with a hammer. It's it's a it's a subtle get you up on the step and you look and you're like, oh, I'm in the game and you can feel that you're in the game. But it wasn't like a big shock to the system. It gets you up there subtly and then you're there. And actually, you can stay there for a while.

• 1:51:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, what I look is you look around like two hours later and you're like, you know, this be I I'm on fire. And you're like, oh, yeah.

• 1:52:00Dave Berke?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:02Jocko Willink?

  That's right. That's what just happened. Yeah, you mentioned the Warrior Kid Molk. So there's the Warrior Kid Molk.

• 1:52:09Jocko Willink?

  And then we have Jocka White Tea.

• 1:52:12Jocko Willink?

  Which is, you know, summertime. I got the cans. They're just sitting around my house. They're in the fridge or just getting pulled out. My whole family is just cracking out on Jocka White Tea. So give that a try.

• 1:52:25Speaker 02

  And don't forget the joint warfare and krill oil. Big part. See, see even how you're just like, oh, yeah.

• 1:52:31Jocko Willink?

  No, no, no, I meant like, oh, yeah, yeah, like, yeah, it's just so.

• 1:52:34Speaker 02

  That's a given.

• 1:52:35Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:36Speaker 02

  And here's the thing, it is a given too. That's another one. So I mean, if you're working out, which we are.

• 1:52:40Jocko Willink?

  The tone in my voice was actually like apologetic to the world. That's what I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like. I can't believe I forgot that because if you're not doing that, the reason why, the reason why I can forget it is because when I brush my teeth in the morning,

• 1:52:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:54Jocko Willink?

  I'm taking joint warfare. When I brush my teeth at night and floss, I'm taking joint warfare and I'm taking krill oil.

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:01Jocko Willink?

  So that's just, that's just how.

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  That's just how.

• 1:53:05Jocko Willink?

  I used to say in Hawaii.

• 1:53:06Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, a hundred percent. But some people, maybe they don't know, you know, maybe I think most of us do, but yes, let's not forget that. That's the point. Krill oil, joint warfare, keep yourself physically in the game. So you can do whatever. Lift, lift, do jiu jitsu, boom.

• 1:53:19Jocko Willink?

  Lifting.

• 1:53:20Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. I'm just saying lifting, that's great. See even that, you're taking it for granted.

• 1:53:25Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  I got back into back squats, by the way.

• 1:53:28Jocko Willink?

  Oh.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  Laying down in bed with my wife, that's right, I said it. And she even said, like, your legs look big right now. She didn't know I got back into back squats.

• 1:53:39Jocko Willink?

  What'd she say about your, uh,

• 1:53:43Jocko Willink?

  your knees?

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  Anyway, yeah, so those supplements are outstanding. And, uh, yeah, keep yourself in the game. Get in the game, keep yourself in the game. That's how. Also, we have our own store. It's called Jaco Store, just like you mentioned. Jacostore.com. This is where you can get the rash guards, t-shirts, you want to represent while you're on the path. This is where you can get the stuff, the merch. That's a word. My daughter keeps saying that, you know, she watches.

• 1:54:10Jocko Willink?

  Your daughter's only six years old?

• 1:54:12Speaker 02

  Yes, sir, I know. And.

• 1:54:13Jocko Willink?

  And she's saying merch?

• 1:54:14Speaker 02

  Cause she watches these YouTube videos and they're like, cop the merch. And I'm like, mm, it's kinda, the thing is, you know how you're so biased towards your kids? Well, I am. I don't know about you, but. And they say something like kinda whack and you're like, oh, that's so cute. I'm in that boat right now with that.

• 1:54:30Jocko Willink?

  You don't even recognize that it's not cool.

• 1:54:33Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:54:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 1:54:34Speaker 02

  Not yet. Nonetheless, if you want merch, Jacostore.com.

• 1:54:38Jocko Willink?

  Truckers hats.

• 1:54:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:40Jocko Willink?

  Beanies.

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  Yes. Hoodies.

• 1:54:43Jocko Willink?

  Hoodies.

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  Lightweight and Dave Berke's here.

• 1:54:46Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:54:48Speaker 02

  Lightweight hoodie approved when we're at his house.

• 1:54:51Jocko Willink?

  Lightweight hoodie wearer.

• 1:54:52Speaker 02

  Verbally to me. Oh, yeah. Big time. My little brother, Kenyatta Charles, that's his name, by the way, lives on Hawaii. He went out of his way to tell me that that lightweight hoodie.

• 1:55:02Jocko Willink?

  Dude, he lives in Hawaii, bro.

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  I understand, which is kind of part.

• 1:55:05Jocko Willink?

  Of course he likes the lightweight.

• 1:55:06Dave Berke?

  What would you do with a full weight hoodie in Hawaii?

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 1:55:09Jocko Willink?

  Come on, man.

• 1:55:10Speaker 02

  Use it as a rain.

• 1:55:10Jocko Willink?

  Give me a better example.

• 1:55:11Speaker 02

  Nah, man.

• 1:55:12Jocko Willink?

  Dave's not back. Dave lives in San Diego. Even that's a week.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  Here's the thing.

• 1:55:15Jocko Willink?

  How about my people up in Michigan?

• 1:55:17Speaker 02

  It would be obvious if he was talking only about the functionality of it, but he was talking about everything. The feel, the fit, the look. Anyway, they're good hoodies, lightweight hoodies.

• 1:55:28Jocko Willink?

  Uh, also subscribe to this podcast if you haven't already, because Echo thinks you might not have.

• 1:55:35Jocko Willink?

  And then don't forget about the Warrior Kid Podcast. That one you could forget to, because I haven't put it out as often as I should. But I should put it out more. A lot of parents just have the Warrior Kid Podcast on repeat. Dave, do the lessons sink in from the Warrior Kid Podcast?

• 1:55:52Dave Berke?

  They do. I have learned that my kids understand more than I thought they would understand. Because I watch how they react to the lessons I learned in the podcast and the books, they sink in.

• 1:56:04Jocko Willink?

  If you want to get some soap, get it from IrishOaksRanch.com, because there's a young warrior kid named Aiden, who's living on a farm and he's making soap from goat milk. Jaco soap. And if you use that soap, you can stay clean.

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  Good one.

• 1:56:23Jocko Willink?

  And don't forget about our YouTube channel, because Echo wants you to watch the videos that he makes. And he's super excited and thinks that they look cool. He's like the Paris of movie making. Someone just tightened you up. Bro, someone tightened you up on one of your little, little excerpt, like, hey, podcast number 180, whatever's up. Someone wrote, "Music was a little much."

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:49Jocko Willink?

  I was like, dang, coming off the top ropes.

• 1:56:54Jocko Willink?

  That's a little crazy, right? It's a one, it's a 52 second video, it's not even one minute. And someone said, "Echo's, music's a little much."

• 1:57:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, I am used to that comment, because let's face it, sometimes, man, it is. It is a little much, I get it, it's true. But, at the same time, it depends on what he meant overall, like, a little what, little too loud? Or was it too aggressive?

• 1:57:16Jocko Willink?

  No, I think it was just like, too dramatic.

• 1:57:18Speaker 02

  Or the fact that there's music at all.

• 1:57:20Jocko Willink?

  I think it's just too dramatic.

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  Too dramatic, too much.

• 1:57:23Jocko Willink?

  The cello players of the world are real appreciative of your musical taste. Because they break out the cellos and you break out the recorder.

• 1:57:33Speaker 02

  You were not wrong.

• 1:57:34Jocko Willink?

  If you want to check out little excerpts of this, get the, uh...

• 1:57:39Speaker 02

  Get on the YouTube.

• 1:57:40Jocko Willink?

  YouTube channel, subscribe to it.

• 1:57:42Speaker 02

  Smash the like button. I know.

• 1:57:43Jocko Willink?

  You did it, you did it, you did it.

• 1:57:45Speaker 02

  Last one, last one.

• 1:57:47Jocko Willink?

  Dave, psychological warfare. Do you ever have to press play on psychological warfare?

• 1:57:54Dave Berke?

  Unfortunately, once in a blue moon. Yeah, I've got it down pretty good at this point. I have, I have what I call psychological warfare in my head.

• 1:58:01Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:02Dave Berke?

  I kind of know what you're gonna say at this point, so the reality is, is I don't need that resource, because it's, it's there permanently embedded. I know what you're gonna say at this point.

• 1:58:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's a good point, because it's like, it's one thing to like, listen to it, let's say, for the first, second, third time, or whatever. And it's like, oh yeah, you're right, you're right, and you're fired up to sort of do it. But, at the same time, you're not just getting like, jocko-like, um, hate to say it, like, motivating you to do it. He's motivating you with logic, don't get it wrong, but you still are getting motivated to do it. After a while, that actual logic gets embedded in your head.

• 1:58:32Dave Berke?

  That's the transition from imposed discipline to self-discipline, right there.

• 1:58:36Speaker 02

  You know the message, you know, like, oh hey, yeah, like, you don't feel like doing it, but you know you're supposed to do it. You know how you're gonna feel afterwards, and you know the results, and the thing is, that's a fact. So, you get reminded of it so many times, however many times you listen to it, then you're kind of like, oh yeah, I kind of know that. So you can essentially tell yourself that.

• 1:58:52Dave Berke?

  Yes.

• 1:58:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, so if you want that, it's on iTunes, Google Play, MP3. Flipside Canvas, if you want a visual reminder of the path, go to flipsidecanvas.com. My brother Dakota Meyer, running that thing, making...

• 1:59:09Jocko Willink?

  Art to hang on your walls.

• 1:59:11Speaker 02

  With layers.

• 1:59:12Jocko Willink?

  With layers, multiple layers.

• 1:59:14Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, big time. Also, Onnit, Onnit.com slash Jaco. By the way, this is where you can get fitness gear, some good. I have this electrolyte supplement that I get. It's like a go to, by the way, it's like electrolyte minerals and whatnot. Anyway, get it from Onnit. And so the rings that you so strongly, how should I say, recommended early on, came in handy. So I brought them to my trip to Kauai. Yeah, here's the thing about those rings, though. You have to kind of think ahead on where to hang them. See what I'm saying?

• 1:59:44Jocko Willink?

  It's not that hard, bro.

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  I know, I know, but I found myself in a situation where I'm like searching. You can't just hang them from the ceiling fan.

• 1:59:50Jocko Willink?

  You just had to go Marine Corps manual of adaptation.

• 1:59:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:54Jocko Willink?

  Previously, anticipating.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  Even if you gotta hang them from a tree. But nonetheless, the point is, it's not like a squat. You can't just bring the squat rack to Kauai with you. You see what I'm saying? You gotta go to Kauai, seek one out or something like that. But the rings, they go with you. Boom, throw in the suitcase, carry them, carry, literally carry the rings on the plane, whatever. So it's easy, you know? And then you can get, yeah, that workout, not to mention the workouts from rings are gonna be a lot better than, if you don't have rings. Um, anyway, get, get, there's a lot of stuff, good kettlebells on there. Decorative, artistic kettlebells on there. That's where I get my, um, a lot of good stuff on there. Onnit.com slash Jaco.

• 2:00:31Jocko Willink?

  Got a bunch of books. Way the Warrior Kid 3, Where There's a Will, Where There's a Will, that is live. And it's actually available on Kindle right now. We just released the Kindle version, so apologize, it took a little longer. Way the Warrior Kid 1, and then Way the Warrior Kid 2, Mark's Mission. That is where you can get your kids on the path. Mikey and the Dragons, for anyone that needs to overcome fear, face fear, get Mikey and the Dragons. Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. This is the adult version of how to get after it. And then there's Extreme Ownership and The Dichotomy of Leadership, which are books that I wrote with my brother Leif Babin.

• 2:01:14Jocko Willink?

  They are the combat leadership lessons we learned and how you can apply them to your life and your business. We got Ashlan front.

• 2:01:24Jocko Willink?

  Which is where we solve problems through leadership, leadership consultancy. If you want myself, if you want Dave Berke, if you want Leif Babin, JP Danelle. If you want Flynn Cochran, if you want Jason Gardner, if you want Mike Shirelli to come to your location and help you align the leadership in your organization. Who'd I miss? Mike Byma. If you want anyone from Echelon Front, go to echelonfront.com. That's what we do. We solve problems through leadership. And we got EF Online, which is online interactive training. Because leadership training of any kind is not an inoculation. You need to get booster shots. And that's what EF Online is.

• 2:02:09Jocko Willink?

  And it's something that you can put through your whole organization. Get your whole organization from the frontline troops to the senior leadership on the same path with leadership. EFOnline.com. We got the muster. The muster is coming up in September 19th and 20th in Denver. It's almost sold out. So if you want to come, you better just register ASAP. Sydney, Australia, on December 4th and 5th. Go to extremeownership.com. Every one of them have sold out and those will sell out too. And then of course EF Overwatch, which we're taking combat leaders from special operations, from combat aviation, guys like Dave Berke.

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  Good deal, Dave.

• 2:02:55Jocko Willink?

  Yes. Guys with that kind of experience and we are placing them into, we're placing them into civilian companies where they are using their leadership that they've learned, that they've been tested on and putting it to work in the civilian world. Of course, you can't have Dave Berke because Dave Berke is with us on the team at Echelon Front.

• 2:03:21Jocko Willink?

  And Echo, you got anything else?

• 2:03:23Speaker 02

  I don't. Good to see Dave Berke here. Share time and space with him. Other than that, no man, carry on.

• 2:03:31Jocko Willink?

  Check, Dave.

• 2:03:32Speaker 02

  Nothing to add.

• 2:03:33Jocko Willink?

  Check. And if you do have something to add out there, that's fine. There's still a chance. You can find us on the A and W's. We are on Twitter, Instagram, and das frazen buchen. Echo is at Echo Charles. Dave is at Dave David R. Burke. B E R K E. And I am at Jocko Willink. And we have been getting granular with the Marine Corps right now, but we certainly honor all the branches of the military, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard, including active duty reservists, guard units, and all the vets.

• 2:04:12Jocko Willink?

  Thanks to all of you for allowing us the freedom to record this podcast and to live the lives that we live into our police and law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, all the first responders out there. Thanks to you all as well for being there for us when it counts.

• 2:04:37Jocko Willink?

  When we need you to keep us safe, you are there standing by and we appreciate it. And to everyone else out there,

• 2:04:44Jocko Willink?

  remember what the Marine Corps says about discipline. Discipline is absolute.

• 2:04:52Jocko Willink?

  There is no quasi-discipline. There is no time off. Discipline is a way of thinking and more important than a way of thinking, discipline is a way of behaving.

• 2:05:05Jocko Willink?

  It is about actions, not words. So don't allow

• 2:05:11Jocko Willink?

  any slack. Instead, take charge, take action, seize the initiative,

• 2:05:18Jocko Willink?

  and get after it. And until next time, this is Jaco and Echo and Dave. Out.