S3 Ep302: Peggy Klinke: Tracked, Trapped, and Failed by the System (Part 2)

**If you or someone you know is experiencing stalking or domestic violence, there is help. Contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233 or visit www.thehotline.org.**Peggy Klinke was a vibrant young woman whose life would be derailed by a relationship with a man named Patrick Kennedy. What began as just a short romance became a years-long campaign of stalking, threats, vandalism, arson, and psychological terror—all of which Peggy documented in painstaking detail. Despite her repeated cries for help, the justice system would fail her again and again: law enforcement would ignore her, and Patrick's obsession would eventually escalate into violence. We're coming to CrimeCon Denver! Use our code CRIMEWEEKLY for 10% off your tickets!https://www.crimecon.com/CC25Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. LiquidIV.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 20% off your first order!2. https://www. SimpliSafe.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 50% off a new system and your first month FREE!3. https://www. FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF for 50% off and FREE shipping!4. https://www. OneSkin.co - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY to get 15% off! At checkout, let them know we sent you!5. https://www. SKIMS.com - Get FREE shipping on orders over 75$! To let them know we sent you, select our podcast after you order!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Today, we're diving in to the second and final part of the Peggy Klinke case.

• 0:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, ready for this one.

• 0:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Before we do, you have something you want to say?

• 0:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, I'm just letting anybody know if you're not watching on YouTube. If you are, you can already see it. Got the new Criminal Coffee hat on. This is the light blue and navy blue or royal blue. That's what we've established. Really cool. It's got a little off-white back on it. A lot of you guys love the hats. We have three different colors in stock right now. Limited quantity. If you want to go check it out, head on over to CriminalCoffeeCo.com.

• 0:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and actually, the specific hat that Derek is wearing, I was telling him when we were doing Crime Weekly News, that is my favorite color combo. I like the dark brim, the lighter blue body of the hat with like the really rich brown leather patch. I think it's just a great color combo. It's my favorite.

• 1:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, I was saying it on Crime Weekly News that it patina's over time. That's why I really, I like the older ones more. If I can keep them clean, the patch looks even cooler as it starts to age. But yeah, go check it out and make sure you sign up for our free newsletter over at CriminalCoffeeCo.com. That's where you'll hear about the latest sales and discounts we offer, and we usually send them out to the subscribers first. Again, it's free. You just go over there, sign up, put your email in, or you can do text, and you're ready to go. And we do have a special announcement coming up in the next couple of weeks. If you're following us on our social media, the Criminal Coffee social media is, you probably already know what that is. We've dropped a few hints, little pieces of evidence here and there, but the official announcement will be coming out very soon.

• 1:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  We have new, we have new coffees coming out, so keep an eye out for that.

• 1:42Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. There you go. There's, if you needed more evidence, there it is.

• 1:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's very exciting for me, so I want everybody to understand. It's not some little like, oh, some little news. No, new coffee flavors, amazing. Be ready for it.

• 1:53Derrick Levasseur?

  They taste awesome, yep.

• 1:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so we're gonna dive in to Peggy Klinky and I'm gonna give you a quick little recap because I know it's been a week. So Peggy Klinky was smart, driven, full of life. She had big goals and a bright future and when she moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico, it felt like a fresh start. She was focused on her health, her career, and her dream of becoming a doctor. But then, she met Patrick Kennedy and everything began to change. At first, he seemed charming, but he moved kinda quickly. He was very intense. You know, it started real intense, real passionate, and it didn't take long for Patrick's behavior to shift. He isolated Peggy from her family, controlled where she went and who she saw, and emotionally wore her down until she no longer felt like herself.

• 2:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  When she broke things off, he stalked her. He followed her, harassed her, and used his daughter and his mother in an attempt to manipulate her. He vandalized her mother's home, he targeted her new boyfriend, and basically started a house fire in this guy's home. And when Peggy went to the police, she was told there was nothing that they could do. So eventually Peggy decided to take action herself, she hired an attorney, filed a criminal complaint, and was granted a protective order, but it didn't matter because Patrick didn't stop. He kept stalking her, and every time she went to the police, she was brushed off and told to wait for her upcoming trial against Patrick. And Peggy was frustrated and scared, and Patrick wasn't stopping. So she ended up moving to a place called Turlock, California,

• 3:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  hoping that if she was in a new place where Patrick didn't know her address, she could finally be safe. But Patrick wasn't willing to let her go. Of course, ever since Peggy moved, Patrick was desperate to find her. You know, it wasn't an out of sight, out of mind thing. He knew she had left, he knew she wasn't there in Albuquerque anymore, and the whole time that Peggy thought, "Okay, it's quiet, I have some peace, I'm safe", she was still letting her neighbors and things, her new neighbors in California know, "Hey, this guy's stalking me, this is what he looks like", she was showing them pictures. "If you see him or anything weird, you know, let me know", she gave them numbers for her mother and her family, just in case anything happened. And for a while, she she didn't have anything happen because he didn't know where she was,

• 4:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  but he was trying to figure it out, right? For a while, things were quiet. It seemed like Patrick wasn't going to find Peggy, but Patrick was not going to give up. He was trying every method he could think of, and some of them Peggy eventually found out about. For example, one day Peggy's coworker got a call from an unnamed man who said he was a private investigator. He asked if she knew someone named Margaret Mary Klinky, and the coworker said, no, she didn't know anyone by that name. The man told her that if she ever did meet someone named Margaret, not to let this Margaret know that he was looking for her. And as soon as the call ended, the coworker called Peggy and told her what had happened. And Peggy knew instantly it was Patrick.

• 4:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Peggy did the right thing when she moved to California by letting her coworkers and her neighbors and everything know, hey, this guy's trying to find me, you know, don't, don't tell anybody anything about me.

• 5:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Enough.

• 5:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, Jennifer Lopez, yeah.

• 5:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 5:05Derrick Levasseur?

  It's the same circumstances, but the back work that she was doing to try to protect herself, a little bit of.

• 5:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it was very smart. Once again, Peggy did everything she could. She did everything right. It's just not, it did not pan out the way it should have.

• 5:19Derrick Levasseur?

  No, and it's unfortunate because the justice system should have done a lot of the heavy lifting for her. And we talked about it last episode. I'm sure we'll get into it tonight as well, but the times and the lack of seriousness that was put behind stalking allegations. Everyone thought, oh, you know what? They'll get over it. It's fine. It's just two people having a spat, but that's not the case. And we're learning now as legislation has changed over the years that we have to protect people when they make allegations like this. So it's unfortunate that she was kind of on her own on all of this.

• 5:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she should have had some support. I mean, she had support from her friends and family, but as far as the legal system goes.

• 5:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Nothing, yeah.

• 5:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, she didn't.

• 5:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope.

• 5:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Patrick kept trying to find Peggy, and it wasn't long before he figured out which moving company she had used. He then posed as a police officer from the Albuquerque Police Department and called the company. He claimed they had recovered stolen property that belonged to Peggy, and he said he needed her new mailing address so it could be returned. Thankfully, the woman on the phone told him she couldn't release any customer information, but offered to have him drop the items off at their office and said they would make sure Peggy got them. Now, Patrick, once again, he wasn't going to give up. He was going to hit brick wall after brick wall. But he was gonna know innately because he had done this before. He'd figured out where Peggy's mother lived in Ohio and she never gave him her address.

• 6:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  He knew that if he was persistent enough, he would eventually find a loose thread that he could pull at. So he tried using his lawyer to get Peggy's new address by asking her attorney to hand it over. Obviously, her attorney refused. Patrick then hired a private investigator to help him track down Peggy's landline number, locate her license plate and/or narrow down the general area where she lived. Eventually, the P I told Patrick he found the name of the street Peggy lived on. It was a long street that stretched over across several neighborhoods, which made it hard to pinpoint an exact house, but Patrick was determined to figure it out. Now, this is a question that I do have for you because you have worked as a private investigator

• 7:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  and I'm sure you've had men approach you trying to find women before, right?

• 7:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Men and women.

• 7:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I've had a lot of men approach or try to hire us to track down a wife or a former spouse or a significant other to see if they're cheating on them or if there's some financial things going on, ton of that. And then also, I've also had women do it as well where they're concerned about, you know, a spouse or an ex-boyfriend, they just want to know more information about them.

• 7:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's weird, like if it's an ex and someone's like, I want to figure out where they are and what they're doing. Like, that's weird to me.

• 7:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, listen.

• 7:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's nefarious.

• 7:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, right off the rip, I don't even do cases like that, like infidelity cases or civil disputes amongst, you know, partners, I don't even go there. We don't, my, my firm has completely moved away from it because it just, it's not something that I'm interested in. But it doesn't stop people from calling us or emailing us about it. And yeah, I mean, there's definitely a, a need for it. You can make a lot of money doing it. I don't think I've ever had someone reach out to me to say, hey, can you track down this person? Because, you know, and they, I want to know where they are, I used to date them, where I would read between the lines and understand what they were actually doing. I don't think I've had anything like that because if I did.

• 8:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Honestly, if person A contacted me and said, "Hey, I used to date this person. I'm trying to find him. Can you find person B for me?" I probably would say, "No, unfortunately, I can't do that." And then I would go and find person B and let them know that person A was trying to find them.

• 8:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's really great, yeah.

• 8:55Derrick Levasseur?

  So I don't think I've ever had that happen.

• 8:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because I think that there's some implications here with the private investigator where, yeah, you're doing your job and you're getting paid to do a job, but you may be putting somebody in danger by doing that. And I'm sure Patrick didn't tell this P I. Like, "Oh, I want to find her because she broke up with me and I'm mad." He probably was like, "She's my girlfriend. She stole something from me, or she filed false charges against me and then left the state, and now we're trying to figure this out legally and we can't find her." I'm sure he made up some story that didn't seem like, "Hey, I want to know where this woman lives so I can continue stalking her." But still, I feel like in this situation, maybe a P I. Needs to get a little bit more context, maybe search or go to the police department and say, "Hey, what's the deal with this Patrick Kennedy guy?

• 9:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Does he have charges against him? What are the charges claiming?" Just to see, because then he would have known that Peggy had a stalking case out against Patrick, and he would have been like, "Hey, I'm not going to help you stalk this woman."

• 9:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, even more so now, we have access to databases that would allow us pretty easily to find people or help assist us tremendously in finding people. And when you, for every single search, when you log into this program, for every single search, it's kind of redundant, but you have to fill out this like two-second quiz. And you have to explain who you're doing it for, like what entity? Is it private? Is it for a bank? Is it for whatever, right? Government entity? And then you have to put in there what the criteria of the search will entail. Like, what's the scope of it? Because it'll limit what it kicks back to you. For example, for like a civil case and infidelity case, something like that. But normally, it won't even allow you to use it for that because you are on the hook as the P I.

• 10:36Derrick Levasseur?

  If you start using these databases that are provided by entities that are connected to federal databases, you can be held criminally liable for it if you're lying on how you're filling out the form, the little questionnaire. If you're using it for other reasons than what is being disclosed, you can not only lose your license to these programs, which I can promise you, it is not easy to get. I actually had one of my programs taken away from me just because they thought I was something I wasn't. I was able to fix it, but it was... They don't fuck around, period. So if you're using it for the wrong reasons like this, it's gonna, the, the programs themselves, the people that run it will flag it and say this person's

• 11:17Derrick Levasseur?

  looking up this other one's information and they'll relay it to law enforcement. So it's a slippery slope. I strongly recommend anybody out there who's trying to get into PI work. I know it's the, it's the low hanging fruit, but don't do it because you're going to get yourself jammed up at some point. You're going to get used in a way where you may not even be, you might not even know the way you're being used.

• 11:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 11:37Derrick Levasseur?

  So I would strongly recommend for anybody who's reached out to me saying, hey, I want to get into that work. Go the genetic genealogy route. That's what mainly we do now. That's where we need the most work, right? The, the leg work. So stay away from it if you can, because it's kind of a slimy business.

• 11:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And I really hope that this PI that Patrick hired was not aware of the reason why he was being hired.

• 11:55Derrick Levasseur?

  There are some, there are a lot of unethical PIs that will do that shit.

• 11:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  They'll do anything for money. Yeah.

• 12:00Derrick Levasseur?

  For the money. So, and you know, that's why I'm saying with the programs, it's very strict now, but that doesn't stop them from going out and actually physically searching for someone. They could do whatever they want.

• 12:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree. It's, it's slippery slope. No. Um, so Patrick's still looking for Peggy. He hasn't found her yet, but in the meantime, uh, he obviously didn't know what else to do with his life, but continued to harass everyone and make himself just absolutely, uh, a pain in everyone's ass. So Patrick ended up gathering some photographs that Peggy had left behind when she left their shared home. He sealed the photographs in plastic baggies filled with water and then mailed them to Peggy's mother's house. And when she received the package, she noticed that Patrick had used Mark's address as the return label. So Mark was Peggy's new boyfriend. And she also noticed that the postmark on the package was from San Jose, California, which was not far from

• 12:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  where Peggy was living at the time. And obviously this shook the entire family because it meant one thing. Patrick was getting closer to finding Peggy and he, it seemed like he kind of wanted them to know that, which is weird.

• 13:07Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know. I mean, he seems like he was probably trying to get the drop on her, but you, you could be right. Maybe it was intimidation just by letting them know the reach and the capabilities that he had. It's also could be that he just is stupid and he was trying to be sneaky and it didn't work. I think both are plausible.

• 13:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they both might be plausible, but I mean, obviously, he was in San Jose when he sent those pictures. So he got the pictures from Albuquerque and then left on the hunt for Peggy. And from San Jose, he sent those pictures, which were in baggies full of water, which I'm not sure what that's, what the implication of that is. Like, what's that threat? Like, you're gonna drown her? What is it? You know?

• 13:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Honestly, that would be my first thought.

• 13:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  That would be my first thought, too.

• 13:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Pictures of her in water.

• 13:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Derrick Levasseur?

  What else? I mean, what else would you deduce from that?

• 13:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it's just a weird thing, because it's like you're stalking her. You think you want to keep these operations sort of covert, under the radar, especially because you have a case, a pending case.

• 14:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 14:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you're not.

• 14:06Derrick Levasseur?

  All these types of people don't care.

• 14:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Derrick Levasseur?

  They're not, they're not bound by the laws. They just, they're gonna do what they want to do.

• 14:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's crazy.

• 14:13Derrick Levasseur?

  The only way to stop them is to put them in prison.

• 14:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, absolutely. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 14:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. In late November of 2002, Peggy made the difficult decision not to travel to Ohio for Thanksgiving with her family, even though, obviously, that had always been a part of her holiday tradition. She didn't want to risk Patrick showing up and hurting her or anyone she loved, so instead, she went to stay with Mark, which felt safer. Now, just a few days before Thanksgiving, Peggy's sister Debbie received a phone call at 10:00 PM. It was Patrick, and he was threatening to kill Peggy. He said, quote, "I know where she's at, and in 10 minutes, she'll be dead." End quote. He tried to disguise his voice, but Debbie recognized it immediately, and she was terrified. Knowing Peggy was in Albuquerque at Mark's,

• 15:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  she called that police department and told them that she believed Patrick was outside of Mark's house with a gun, and she was scared that he was going to kill Mark and Peggy. She begged the dispatcher to send officers for a welfare check and not to hang up until officers arrived. Now, when the officers arrived at Mark's house, Peggy and Mark were both okay, but Peggy was visibly shaken. She thought that they were there to tell her that Patrick had gone to her mother's house in Ohio, thinking she was there, and that when he didn't find her, he had killed her mom. And the officers explained that Debbie, her sister, had called in the welfare check. So the two of them got on the phone. Debbie was obviously relieved to know that Peggy was okay and she was able to tell her that everyone in Ohio was safe. And after that incident, Peggy called the district attorney,

• 15:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  who was prosecuting her criminal complaint against Patrick, and left a message describing the threat that had been made and her growing frustration with the lack of action from the police. The next day, the DA called her back and laughing said, quote, "Oh, my God, you're still alive," end quote. Dude, is this real life?

• 16:11Derrick Levasseur?

  No, this is, this is bad. But I mean, you would think that this, this trail of evidence now would help her.

• 16:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I mean, obviously, nobody's taking it seriously. Why would the DA call back laughing? Almost like, I don't know if it was a laugh of like, ha, ha, like, you're just over-exaggerating everything, like, you're still alive, crazy? Or if it was like a, oof, you're still alive, thank God. I don't know, but.

• 16:34Derrick Levasseur?

  It's hard. I would like to think the latter, right? But we don't know. But I, we both know how things can be taken out of context with written words, so.

• 16:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 16:44Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 16:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think it's a, I think it's a weird reaction, either way, you know?

• 16:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, probably not the most professional thing. And again, with written words, you can make that, you know? You can give them that excuse, but this was said over the phone. Obviously, we don't have any proof of how it was said. Tone means a lot, but yeah, not needed.

• 17:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just a million other things that could have been said.

• 17:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. I mean, yeah. Not, not the appropriate time.

• 17:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, oof, thank God you're alive. All right, this is a very real threat. This is really scary. We're sure you're terrified. Like, how can we help you? How can we make you feel safer while you're here in Albuquerque? But no, that is not what happened, so.

• 17:20Derrick Levasseur?

  It almost sounds like, to me, if I had to guess, he's not taking the threat serious by Patrick and he's saying, this guy's full of shit. He's all, he's all show, no go. He's bluffing. And so it's almost like a sarcastic, oh, you're still alive. He didn't do it again.

• 17:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's how I took it.

• 17:36Derrick Levasseur?

  But, but the other way is, he's not bluffing, and she's not gonna be on the phone. What do you do then, buddy?

• 17:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, you wouldn't be laughing, would you?

• 17:45Derrick Levasseur?

  You wouldn't be laughing, and there's nothing you can do to change it at that point. So yeah, completely inappropriate and unprofessional.

• 17:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So after that November death threat, things went quiet for a little while. So Peggy made plans to return to Ohio for Christmas and stay there for two full weeks. But before she arrived, Patrick's sister-in-law called Peggy's mother and said that no one knew where Patrick was, and suggested that they contact the local police to ask for extra patrols. So Patrick's ex-wife's sister is more worried about Peggy than the police are. And obviously because she knows what her sister went through, right? But come on.

• 18:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I think that's pretty much the norm, too. And this is that I think police officers desensitize themselves to these crimes. And a lot of them don't put themselves in the shoes of the victims, and they they deal with these types of incidents every day, and they get very complacent. And it can come off as insensitive and unprofessional to some people. So no, the relatives that are going through this living nightmare every day with their loved ones are obviously going to perceive the whole thing much differently and more than likely more accurate than what police officers are going to, how they're going to treat this case. So I see it. I saw it with my own officers. It's when you're dealing with it all the time, it

• 19:11Derrick Levasseur?

  is easy to just kind of go through the motions. So this person sitting there telling you something that is like extremely traumatic to them. And you're like, okay, when was the date on that? You show no emotion. And not all the time. It's meant to be disrespectful. It's just, it would be the same as what we do on this podcast, right? Like, you come here certain weeks, and we're talking about murder and death and violence every single week. And we do it pretty easily at this point, because it's what we're accustomed to, where if somebody else was reading or researching what you're doing, and we're talking about what we're talking about, it may turn their stomach.

• 19:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  It still turns my stomach.

• 19:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct, but you have an ability to just kind of separate emotion from what you have to do and you do it. And so, law enforcement is no different. Now, I'm not saying that's always the case, in some cases, they just don't give a shit. And that could also be the case here, I wasn't there.

• 20:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  I definitely don't think it was meant to be disrespectful, or in a we don't give a shit kind of way, but police officers see a lot, they probably saw some domestic issues where one or the other was like, "Oh, I'm being stalked, I'm being this and that," and found out it wasn't actually happening, it was just a lover's quarrel, they're trying to get each other in trouble.

• 20:23Derrick Levasseur?

  If I had a dollar for every time it was, it was someone, male or female, calling on the other person because they cheated on them, or they were mad at them, or they were fighting. They, law enforcement is constantly used as a tool, a retaliatory tool, to get back at others. You see it in divorce is all the time as well. "Oh, this person said this," or "He hit me," and "No, I didn't." And it, we have a lot of parents who end up showing up at the station to exchange the kids because they don't even want to do that alone because of the allegations that can be made to law enforcement. So, yeah, there is a lot of times where resources in law enforcement are taken away from people who really need it for, for spats that don't warrant it. Obviously, that's not the case here, but it, but it does happen often.

• 21:05Derrick Levasseur?

  And like you just said, officers sometimes have a difficult time differentiating between the two. Because how do you really know?

• 21:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of course, so they're probably going to treat all of them kind of the same.

• 21:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Unfortunately, yes, I would agree with you.

• 21:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, here's the thing, so Peggy's family did explain the situation to law enforcement, like, "Hey, Patrick's been stalking her, and now we don't know where he is." And they asked law enforcement to monitor the area, to keep an eye out for rental cars or out of state plates, or like anyone who didn't belong in the neighborhood. And they also warned the neighbors in Peggy's mom's Ohio neighborhood. But they did not tell Peggy because they didn't want to add to her fear. Like, she was already a mess, she was already frazzled. Uh, they didn't want to kind of like add one more layer of that, but it didn't help. Peggy was still incredibly distraught during her visit. Debbie described those two weeks as living hell, and said she had never seen Peggy in such despair.

• 22:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was nervous and anxious and constantly on edge, she barely ate, she was afraid to sit near windows, she jumped at the sound of the phone ringing or someone knocking on the door. And Debbie said that Peggy just literally couldn't function. She was constantly worried about Patrick showing up. Nowhere felt safe. But Debbie does have some positive memories from that visit, like how she had just found out she was pregnant and she was able to share that news with Peggy, something that she's grateful for to this day. When it came time for Peggy to go back to California, she was terrified, but she refused to let anyone travel with her. She didn't want to put anyone else in danger, and she made it clear she didn't want harm to come to her family. She went back alone, not knowing

• 22:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  that she'd never see her family again. So not long after she returned, Peggy left town for a brief business trip. Debbie asked her to call as soon as she got home, just to make sure everything looked okay at the house. And when Peggy returned after the business trip, she called Debbie and said everything seemed fine. But then, on January 18th, 2003, Patrick tracked Peggy down, and what he would do next would change the world forever. So on that day, Patrick arrived in Turlock, California, and began searching the street where he believed Peggy lived. He carried a photo of her and told people he encountered that he was a private investigator trying to find someone named Peggy because she owed

• 23:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  him money. While walking the neighborhood, Patrick spoke with a UPS driver who recognized Peggy. She received frequent deliveries as part of her job in pharmaceutical sales. At first, the driver said he couldn't give out personal information, but Patrick kept pushing and eventually convinced him to share Peggy's address. Patrick then drove to Peggy's home, parked across the street, and entered her garage. He had brought a backpack filled with weapons and restraints, a handgun, a hunting rifle, rope, and a large amount of duct tape. At some point, Peggy was preparing to leave her home to see her neighbor Rachel when Patrick walked through the door. He grabbed her and struck her in the head with

• 24:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  his handgun, and the blow caused Peggy to bleed heavily. He taped her mouth shut and tied her hands behind her back. But Peggy was able to get her hands free and pull her sweatshirt over her head. Now, at that exact moment, Peggy's neighbor Rachel was waiting at the front door. Peggy ran outside covered in blood. She was screaming for help. She told Rachel that Patrick had found her, that he was inside the house, and that he was going to kill her. The two of them ran to Rachel's condo next door, locked and barricaded the front door, and went upstairs to the bedroom where Peggy made a heartbreaking 911 call. And we're going to play that call for you now.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  911, emergency? I have a stop sign. He's here to kill me. He's already beat me up and taped me. He's in my house, 1410, number 118. What's he got? Who's there? Patrick Kennedy. He's beating me up with a gun. He's trying to break in now. Does he have a gun right now? He does. He's already beat my head. If you don't get here, he's going to kill both of us. Okay, we're on the way, ma'am. Now.

• 25:06Speaker 02

  Are they on the way? They're on their way. Quickly, my head is stopping with blood. He gets in this house, he's going to kill us. Stay on the line with me, ma'am. I'm staying on the line. Oh, my God. How quickly are they? They're on their way. Patrick?

• 25:21Speaker 02

  I'm the only one here.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  He ran. Please.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Stop it. Female.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Please, stop it. I have to go. He's going to kill me. Is he? Ma'am?

• 25:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wow.

• 25:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that, uh, that audio is tough to listen to because you know it's not going to end well. And you can, you can hear in the, in his voice, Patrick's voice at that point, he, he already knows what he's there to do. He doesn't care who she's, who she's calling. So it's tough. She knew exactly what was going to happen.

• 25:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Um, so that's the first time I've heard that call. I didn't listen to it until now so that I could react to it, uh, organically. But I have so many impressions here. First of all, Peggy is a miraculously strong person. She stayed completely calm and coherent throughout that entire call. She had been hit on the head with a gun. She's terrified. The thing that she's been worried about for months and months and months is finally at her doorstep. And she kept her voice completely calm. She knew that the time was running low. She knew that this was her last chance to get help. And she, she probably knew that police were not going to arrive in time.

• 26:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she stayed completely calm and very authoritative during that entire call. And I just want to say like to Peggy's family that she is a testament to all of you because she was clearly raised right. She was strong. She was terrified. She knew her life was in danger. And not only that, but the life of somebody she cared about, her neighbor Rachel. And she stayed completely calm and never lost her cool once. And you can almost hear a resignation in her voice when she says, I have to go. He's going to kill me.

• 27:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Well, he's telling her to hang up the phone. Maybe in that moment, I think she knew what was going to happen, but also there was maybe a part of her where she, if she complied, she thought she could at least buy time until law enforcement got there. And it's horrible because even for that dispatcher, we criticize a lot of the dispatch calls. That dispatcher did it right.

• 27:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dispatcher did it right.

• 27:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Were they immediately on their way at that very second? No, she's probably typing it up. She's typing it up and talking to her, staying engaged, but it's, there's only so fast I can get there. There's, and at that point, if we're being real here, it was already too late. Once Patrick, once he was inside the house, that's, it's game over. There's no way you can get to her now with him being there without him hurting her first. So it's a, it's a bad situation.

• 27:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you can tell the dispatcher believes Peggy, right?

• 27:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh yeah, no doubt.

• 27:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  She, she's not getting annoyed like, ma'am, I need more information. She's, okay, I hear you. They're on their way.

• 28:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Great.

• 28:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, she was, she was good. So.

• 28:07Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and like you just said, and I think it's worth saying again, calm, cool, collected. Peggy was in that moment, a very high stress situation. She was clear, concise, and knew exactly what needed to be said and how to say it. And considering what she was going through and the fact that she was bleeding profusely from her head.

• 28:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Incredibly terrified.

• 28:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. It was, it was incredible. And it's incredible. And also extremely sad to hear at the same time.

• 28:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  I have goosebumps.

• 28:33Derrick Levasseur?

  And you know what? She probably knew this day was coming.

• 28:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I know. That's what I'm saying.

• 28:36Derrick Levasseur?

  She's probably thought about it a million times.

• 28:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  This whole time. She's just, it's kind of like waiting for the other shoe to drop. And now it has and.

• 28:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Terrible, terrible. Before we keep going, let's just take a break.

• 28:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 28:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Recollect our thoughts and we'll go from here because that is, I'm sure for a lot of people, um, something that's too close to home. And that's, that's all we'll say. So we'll take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 29:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we are back. So after the 911 call ended, as we could hear, Patrick broke into Rachel's condo. He forced Peggy to lie face down on the bedroom floor while he pressed a gun against the back of her head. Officers from the SWAT team arrived and approached the bedroom door. Peggy was terrified. She told the officer not to open the door, saying that if they did, Patrick would kill her. And she stayed calm, speaking to the officer through the door and asking him to pass along messages for her family. Peggy told him to call her mother and say that she loved her. She mentioned that her niece had been sick all winter and said, quote, "Tell her she's going to have a guardian angel watching over her," end quote.

• 29:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  She also asked the officer to tell her sister Debbie to name her new baby after her. At the same time, Peggy was trying to calm Patrick. She told him they could work things out, and she said that both of their families would be devastated if something happened. Debbie shared that she believed Peggy's calmness in those final moments may have been a sign of release. That maybe after everything she'd been through, Peggy had reached a moment of peace, even if it came right before the end. Now, the officer tried to engage with Patrick too, but Patrick wasn't responding, not to Peggy and not to law enforcement. And then Patrick noticed Rachel hiding in the closet. Rachel looked at him and said he was the devil and told him to go back to hell. Good for Rachel, by the way. I mean, Yeah, I love that.

• 30:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is not something that I would encourage someone to do in this situation, and I'm sure Derek wouldn't either. In a situation like this, when you have a clearly crazy person with a gun in his hand, you make yourself as small and as quiet as possible and you do everything you can to get out of that situation. That's not what Rachel did, and in hindsight, I can say she was a badass because she really cared about Peggy. Yeah, she cared about Peggy and, you know, she's like, "Well, if I'm gonna die, I'm gonna let this demon know what I think of him before I do." Now Patrick actually lowered his gun and he told her to leave. And as Rachel left the bedroom, Patrick tried to shoot her and the officer standing outside, but he missed. Then Patrick turned back to Peggy and made the devastating decision to shoot her once

• 31:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  in the back of the head. And then he turned the gun on himself. He died instantly. Now, why, when the door opened and Rachel came out, did SWAT not like take that opportunity to bust that through that door and just shoot him fast?

• 31:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, we're not there. I'm sure if they're there and their guns are up, I can't, it's so hard for me. I've been involved in a shooting. I've had so many people during my shooting, the media, experts say what they would have done and could have done. I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't even feel comfortable enough answering that question. Because being put in that situation, it's something that as an officer you never hoped to be in. And I would much rather have them shooting at me than someone else, because that's almost harder to deal with. The fact that maybe you were just a little slow on the draw, or you didn't have a clear shot because she was in the line between you and the suspect.

• 32:12Derrick Levasseur?

  There's so many variables that could have prevented them from taking that shot that you're describing and asking about. So I don't know. I don't know why they didn't. I would like to think that if that opportunity presented itself and there was a time to do it, they would have. But just the way you're reading it to me and I'm hearing it for the first time, this sounds like it's a matter of not even a second. For this all to happen, I mean, it was probably boom, boom.

• 32:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  He could have been using Peggy as a human shield as well, and so they didn't want to attempt to take the shot with the risk of hitting her.

• 32:44Derrick Levasseur?

  The risk of hitting her and the way she's running, just the angle they were at, the way the layout of the room, it just, he might have, Patrick might have positioned himself in between them.

• 32:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what I'm saying, he could have had Peggy in front of him.

• 32:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. It's not the movies, it's not TV. Unfortunately, I wish it was, but the way the layout of the room probably was and where the SWAT team was and if they even knew that door was about to swing open, all that plays a factor in this. And you gotta also think that it's one officer that can mainly take that shot because this is eerily similar to my shooting where I was one of four officers there, but I was the only one that had a shot because we were, we were going down this hallway, which was about a foot and a half wide. So it was kind of like this funnel where we were wide at first, but just, and it wasn't even designed where I was supposed to go first. It's just the way it went. And I was the only one that had a shot to the point where one of the officers behind me had

• 33:37Derrick Levasseur?

  to basically risk his own life by putting his gun away and holding the flashlight because it was also dark, but he couldn't keep his gun out because he could have shot me or the guy in front of him. So there's so many different things that come into play with something like this and you're trying to make sure that everyone's safe, including the suspect. You want them to be held accountable, but if they happen to get shot, oh well, but yeah, you want to protect the victim. It's, it's tough because you're definitely at a tactical disadvantage in this moment.

• 34:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. You don't know what's going on inside the room. You don't know what's gonna happen. It's just, it's hard, you know?

• 34:10Derrick Levasseur?

  You don't know what it is until the door opens.

• 34:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  They were right there, man. You know, it's like hard. It's hard. It's like there's a slim chance that she could have been saved and.

• 34:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, she might've went for the door. Who even knows how far that door was open, right? Like you're describing it to us, but was it like I was envisioning where the door completely swings open and Patrick takes a shot?

• 34:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even if it's just a little bit, I feel like they could have kicked it in, but at that point, they probably were.

• 34:34Derrick Levasseur?

  By the time they kick it in, she's dead.

• 34:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they were probably hoping that there was a chance that Peggy could reason with Patrick or they could reason with Patrick and they knew if they kicked the door in that he could just shoot her, but that's what he ended up doing anyways, but they had no way of knowing that.

• 34:47Derrick Levasseur?

  The only option in this point is de-escalation. When you have multiple hostages, you want to try to avoid engaging with the suspect because one loss of life is too many.

• 34:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 34:57Derrick Levasseur?

  So they just, they have all the leverage. The, the suspects have all the leverage. And so you don't want to go in if they, if they do kill one of the hostages, if there's multiple hostages, then you have to maybe change your mindset and say, you know what? We gotta get some of them out. But when there's only one suspect and one person in there, you have all the time in the world. You can sit up there for five days if you have to. As long as she's alive, that's a win. But it looks like Peggy made the decision like he's not, he's gonna kill me. I'm gonna go and, and maybe she told, maybe he told her. Go for it. You can leave knowing as soon as she got up or as soon as she started walking toward the door, he was gonna kill her.

• 35:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  She knew he was gonna kill her.

• 35:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I think so too. I think so too.

• 35:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the SWAT team entered after hearing the second gunshot. They pulled Peggy from the house and attempted to revive her on the front lawn, but it was too late. She died there outside her California home just days before she was supposed to testify against the man who had terrorized her for years. Now, back in Ohio, the Turlock Police contacted the Youngstown Police Department and asked them to notify Peggy's family in person. At the time, Debbie was at their mother's house, celebrating a family birthday. That evening, Debbie and her mom were sitting in the living room, watching TV when the doorbell rang, a rare sound in the neighborhood where most people just knocked and walked in. Debbie immediately felt a sense of dread. For a moment, she feared Patrick had shown up and

• 36:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  was going to kill whoever opened the door. She walked to the hallway and hesitated before rounding the corner. From the kitchen, she could see two police officers standing at the door and in that moment, Debbie knew that her sister Peggy was dead. She opened the door and the first words out of her mouth were, "Did Patrick Kennedy kill my sister?" Peggy's mother came into the hallway as the officers confirmed that, yes, Patrick had killed Peggy, but they didn't have any more details. They handed Debbie a business card for the detective assigned to the case in California, and Debbie called him immediately. The detective walked her through what had happened, that Patrick had found Peggy, killed her, and then killed himself. Debbie told us that her first reaction to hearing about

• 37:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Patrick's suicide was anger. She thought, "You're such a coward for shooting yourself as opposed to living in prison." But that anger faded quickly, and in its place came something deeper. She started to consider what might have happened if Patrick had been arrested. She thought about how men like him often served just a portion of their sentence, and she feared what he might have done if he were ever released. And this is absolutely true. We've, we see this all the time. I, I was even just, uh, reading about a case where a man, I think it was on that I Survived show, which is an absolutely traumatizing show, but a man kidnapped a woman. He cut off her arms, he cut off her legs, he shot

• 37:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  her, I believe, and then he threw her like down a mountain. Um, with the assumption she would die, right? And this woman did not die. She managed to, I think he just caught off her legs, but either way, he, she managed to like, get herself to safety. She got medical treatment. She survived, obviously in a horrible state. And the man only got attempted murder charges and then he ended up getting paroled. So because this guy, even though he fully intended to kill her, because she happened to be strong and a survivor and didn't die, he gets a lesser sentence? It's absolutely insane to me. So you have to actually kill somebody and have that, that horrible thing happen, even though

• 38:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  everybody could tell that it was, it was his intention to have her not be living anymore. But he gets a shorter sentence and he gets out and he gets to live his life again, just because it's attempted murder and not actual murder. The, the justice system is completely screwed up.

• 38:39Derrick Levasseur?

  It's screwed up. And, and in this particular case, this was avoidable. And now you have multiple lives that are affected forever. You have Peggy, no longer with us. You have Peggy's family, Debbie, mother, all the relatives that have these fond memories of her that wanted to make more of them that they won't get to do. And, and her, her young, her niece, right? Her niece was going to be someone that I'm sure Peggy was going to be around all the time and they were going to make memories together. And then, and then to a lesser degree, I think about the dispatcher. I promise you that call is going to stay with her forever. Uh, those officers that are at that scene that have an opportunity to save her and were unable to do so, so many lives, I mean, that's a career ender for some people.

• 39:24Derrick Levasseur?

  They, they won't be able to recover from that. So.

• 39:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  The women that Patrick had been with previously, who are now looking at this and thinking, you know, that could have been me.

• 39:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, that's right. Absolutely. So many lives affected by this one coward. And he took, again, he did exactly what he would do because he's, he doesn't have the balls to answer for what he did. So he takes himself out as well. He knew exactly what he was doing. There was, there was no way. And I, I say this more for the officers, there was no way that she was leaving there alive. Once he got in, he went there with the full intent on killing her and killing himself. He wasn't trying to escape, which is why he wasn't in a rush to get to her when she was on the phone because he knew time was on his side.

• 40:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he was there to do something and whatever happened afterwards, he was not concerned with because he just wanted to take her life.

• 40:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Can we go over again? Cause I was so caught up in where it was going. What did he bring with him? Again, I'm going back up on this.

• 40:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Duct tape, a gun, a shotgun. Yeah.

• 40:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Duct tape, gun, a shotgun.

• 40:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause remember he initially broke into her house, but then she escaped and got to Rachel's house. So he probably intended to drag this out a lot longer.

• 40:34Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm thinking. I just wanted to go, that's what I'm thinking that maybe this was intended to be a longer thing. And because she was able to get to a phone, he had to expedite whatever he was gonna do and it changed. But you're right. I think there was an intent to torment her.

• 40:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, to torture her and draw it out and scare her. Yeah, for as long as it took.

• 40:53Derrick Levasseur?

  As long as he could do it and he was gonna make, he was gonna get his gratification out of it before it would have came to this end. But because she was able to get to that phone, she prevented that, which, oh man, it's such a tough way of looking at it, but there is to me a little silver lining because he went out.

• 41:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's the better option, I suppose.

• 41:11Derrick Levasseur?

  She didn't have to suffer. It was quick. She probably didn't even know it happened. And she was gone and then he had to do what he had to do, sitting there in that room alone, shooting himself. And they're definitely, depending on what you believe in, they're going to different places.

• 41:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, I do believe that and I also believe that.

• 41:33Derrick Levasseur?

  They're not gonna be, they won't be seeing each other again.

• 41:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 41:36Derrick Levasseur?

  He's gonna be in the warmer climate.

• 41:39Derrick Levasseur?

  He's gonna be, uh.

• 41:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's gonna need some, yeah, he's gonna need some sunscreen. So I definitely believe that he intended, he's gonna need some sunscreen.

• 41:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I definitely intended.

• 41:51Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the best part of it. I would argue in a perfect world, if there is something out there, when you go there, you're surrounded by hundreds of the worst people in the world who just get to do things to you on a daily basis for the rest of eternity.

• 42:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's a comforting thought, but.

• 42:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Right? Isn't it great?

• 42:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's a comforting thought.

• 42:10Derrick Levasseur?

  It's weird that I feel that way, but that's what I think about. I think about that with child molesters too.

• 42:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think it's weird that you feel that way at all. I think it's, you know, something that, yeah, I think it's something a lot of people hope for, right?

• 42:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Like.

• 42:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  That, that the people who are demonic in life actually get to face their demonic makers in death.

• 42:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, man. Every single day.

• 42:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  But here's what I think. I think he always intended to kill himself, but I think he intended to take Peggy, to torture her, to make her death slow and painful, and that he was going to tell her while he was doing it, "Hey, after I'm done with you, I'm gonna go to Mark's house, and I'm gonna kill him. And then I'm gonna go to your mother's house, and I'm gonna kill her, and your sister, and your niece, and I'm gonna kill everybody that you love."

• 42:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 42:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he may have actually done that and then killed himself, right?

• 42:53Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't doubt it one bit. This is the way, right? Like, we see it with the school shooters too, right? They want to kill themselves, they're suicidal, they completely hate their lives.

• 43:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  But they want to take everyone else out first.

• 43:01Derrick Levasseur?

  But they won't do us all a favor. I mean, and I always say this, and I hate that I even have to qualify, go get help. If you can get help, get help. But if you're gonna do it, take yourself out. Just do it.

• 43:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  But they don't want to take themselves out. They want to only take themselves out because they don't want to face the accountability for what they've done. They don't want to face the, what, the sentence they're gonna have to serve, right? So they're like, "I'm just gonna do as much damage as I can, and then take myself out so that I'm free and clear."

• 43:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, he also didn't want to give Peggy the satisfaction of feeling free and safe.

• 43:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Never.

• 43:33Derrick Levasseur?

  If he kills himself, as, you know, it is what it is, but Peggy would have probably been very relieved. She would have been able to move on with her life and not live in fear. And he wasn't going to allow that.

• 43:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he wasn't gonna give her that satisfaction.

• 43:46Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, no, no. He wanted to make sure that. Because it was probably a gratification to this, right? That she was always on the run, always looking over her shoulder.

• 43:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, he loved it. That's why he kept doing it.

• 43:56Derrick Levasseur?

  You think about the photo that you sent, the photo that he sent with the water.

• 43:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's, he was like, oh, you're gonna get away from me, but it's not gonna be a happy life. It's not gonna be a peaceful life, right?

• 44:05Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 44:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Peggy's sister is, is basically wondering the same thing that you wondered. Like, would, would Peggy have ever been able to feel safe again while Patrick still walked the earth?

• 44:16Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 44:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 44:17Derrick Levasseur?

  No, she was, she was living in a prison, basically. Because no matter where she went, he was tracking her down. So I think this was the last time where he realized that she was truly trying to separate from him and had the capability of, of doing a pretty good job of hiding herself for, at least for a short period of time. And he probably figured, wow, if I don't get her this time, she may drop off the map and I may never see her again. And I want to point out something else that you said. It was coming up very soon for the trial where she was going to testify. He also had to get to her before that because who knows what happens from there? He wasn't gonna let it go to court.

• 44:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  What, what, what happens from there, Derek? He serves a couple of years in prison and he's out to do it again?

• 44:56Derrick Levasseur?

  You're right. I got no rebuttal. I got no rebuttal. You're right. But in his mind, he's thinking, I'm gonna get to her before the court has a chance to do anything to me.

• 45:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he was thinking, oh, that I'm only gonna serve a couple of years in prison. However, she could completely disappear by that time and she'll never pay for what she did to me.

• 45:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 45:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Peggy's sister Debbie said, to this day, it's hard not to think about all the painful possibilities. Peggy might have escaped but been left deeply traumatized. She might have survived the attack but lived with lifelong injuries. And even if Patrick had gone to prison, Debbie knew he might have found ways to stalk and harass Peggy from behind bars and then afterwards, when he got out, and that was never going to be a life of peace. So, yeah, it's, it's, oh, it's really, really upsetting to think about. But let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

• 45:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so in the days following Peggy's murder, Debbie stepped into the role of family spokesperson. As the oldest sibling, she found herself answering questions and sharing what she knew with others. Debbie told Peggy's story again and again, recounting the year-long nightmare of stalking that led up to her sister's death. It was emotionally draining, but Debbie also found it to be kind of like a therapy. And through that process, she began to see something else. She began to understand that Peggy's story might be able to help others. She wondered how many women like Peggy had been failed by systems that never took stalking seriously. And the answer to that is a lot. I don't have an exact number for you, a lot. So Debbie tried to gather as much information from law enforcement in Turlock, California,

• 46:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  but they were already closing the case. They treated Peggy's murder as a straightforward murder-suicide. Patrick showed up, killed Peggy, then turned the gun on himself. And they didn't do much to look into what led up to that point. But Debbie knew that the narrative didn't reflect the truth. She knew it ignored everything Peggy had been through, and she could see clearly that the full context of the stalking was being overlooked. She said, quote, "This murder didn't start that night in Turlock. It started a year earlier in Albuquerque. This is on Albuquerque police's conscience for letting it go as far as it did," end quote. And it wasn't just law enforcement. The media also reduced Peggy's story to a domestic dispute. Reports made it seem like Patrick had been a former boyfriend who suddenly snapped.

• 47:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  There was no mention of the year-long campaign of stalking and terror and psychological torture that Peggy and her family and friends had endured. There was also no mention of the countless ways the justice system had failed to protect her. There never is initially, by the way, until family starts to speak out. But understandably, this made Debbie angry, so she started reaching out to newspapers to provide corrections. She wanted people to understand that Patrick wasn't a random man and Peggy wasn't a random victim. Over the course of a year, Peggy had filed stalking charges, changed her phone number, moved to a different state, and taken every single step she could to protect herself. And despite all of that, Patrick found her and murdered her.

• 47:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, let me weigh in here real quick because I agree with all of what Debbie's saying. And it's not just because Debbie worked with us on this episode. I do, I completely agree, and I don't always agree. There were periods of time where you could say if he, she just came forward and it was a he said, she said, especially in the nineties, they're not taking it as seriously as they do now, right? But a repetitive behavior where this woman is coming forward and repeatedly providing you with information to show an escalation over time and for the, the city of Albuquerque not to act on that and take more measures to protect her, it's a problem. And, and, and, and I wouldn't go as far as saying her death is on their hands, it's on Patrick's,

• 48:37Derrick Levasseur?

  but could they have done something to maybe push this forward? Because as you've said, Stephanie, multiple times, even if they did, the justice system, probably we wouldn't have locked them up, but even if they did, were we talking three months? 90 days, most, so it's not a lot of time, but it could have done something that maybe allowed her an opportunity to escape and get further away. We never know and we never will know, but yes, I concur with Debbie. Albuquerque did not handle this correctly. Debbie and, and, and Peggy and the rest of her family, they did everything they could. They did everything they could and unfortunately the system failed them.

• 49:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I have to say, and this is, this might surprise you.

• 49:19Derrick Levasseur?

  It's, there's no way you're not going to agree with me here.

• 49:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  This might surprise you.

• 49:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 49:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've been, I've been thinking about this since we filmed the last episode and I've been kind of like doing research into it. The police department in a way, and we did touch on this briefly last time, in a way does have their hands tied because it's all about the judge. It's all about the legal system.

• 49:39Derrick Levasseur?

  A hundred percent.

• 49:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  The only thing that would have kept Debbie safe, because Patrick didn't give a shit about the police, he didn't give a shit about court orders.

• 49:45Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 49:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  He clearly flouted authority in every way, shape and form. What would the police do? Go give him a good talking to?

• 49:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, they can't even arrest him.

• 49:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  They couldn't even arrest him and even if they did, he'd get right back out. So the only thing that would have kept. Peggy Safe is to have Patrick behind bars until the trial happened.

• 50:03Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right.

• 50:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which was never going to happen because the stalking allegations hadn't been proven in court. So there's no reason, legal, legal reason to keep him behind bars.

• 50:12Derrick Levasseur?

  It's still hard to this day to do it, by the way.

• 50:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know.

• 50:15Derrick Levasseur?

  We're 2025.

• 50:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. It is very hard, incredibly hard. Even though you have, you have proof and we have electronic proof right now, okay? Look, this person's trying to hack into my accounts. Look, I have a doorbell footage of this guy walking around my house when I have an order of protection against him. What are you guys gonna do? Oh, well, we'll, we'll bring him into the station for a few hours and then he'll get out on bail. They can't, they cannot do a lot. And I'm, and I know for a fact, because I've talked to police officers, it frustrates the hell out of them too. Because they feel powerless.

• 50:45Derrick Levasseur?

  How many times have we talked about it on camera, off camera?

• 50:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  A lot.

• 50:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't tell you how many times I've gone somewhere, you got a guy who beat the shit out of his, his girlfriend or wife, go to court, build this great case against him and then the judge is like, well, is this their first offense?

• 51:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 51:00Derrick Levasseur?

  All right. Well, you know what? Probation for a year. Probation for a year. Really? Have, Your Honor, I'm sorry, did you look at the photos and then the lawyer's looking at you like, hey, just shut the fuck up? You know? I'm like, okay, great, super. Now, not every state is like that. I live in a state where it is very hard with these cases. Honestly, Rhode Island's tough. Um, I always battled with the prosecutors because they would come back and say, hey, we're offering him a year suspended, you know, a year probation. And I'm like, what? One on one? Really? But it's, it's the truth. It happens all the time because that, that person, by the way, the, the offender, will come out and accuse the victim of things as well.

• 51:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, I know. They file restraining orders. Yeah. And then it muddies the waters, it confuses everything.

• 51:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, exactly, exactly.

• 51:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I will say, I think that, um, for, for, for the legal system and the justice system, especially then, and even now, they don't have a firm grasp on the psychological aspect of it. So if somebody has a mental illness or a personality disorder that kind of, I mean, obviously you'd have to, right? To be like, somebody like Patrick where even your own self-interest don't matter at this point. Humans have one thing in common, which is we will protect ourselves at any cost. So most people who are of sane mind.

• 52:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, maybe they do a little stalking, whatever, try to scare their ex. But once the legal system gets involved, once they realize their life's on-

• 52:22Derrick Levasseur?

  You said that, I'm sorry, it's not a funny, they do a little stalking, but once you-

• 52:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, a little light stalking, just to scare people, you know, because men in general can be a little power hungry, controlling, they want to show these women, you know, they're toxic. But they're not like mentally ill to the point where like the police and the courts are getting involved and they're sending like photos and water, like that is a sign that somebody's not right in their head, okay?

• 52:44Derrick Levasseur?

  100%

• 52:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because they don't even care about what happens to them. So I think the justice system needs to have a better grasp of, yeah, overall, in general, most people would stop and, and realize, hey, I'm walking a slippery slope here. Some people don't because they're not self-aware enough and they're mentally ill. Somebody like Patrick was never going to stop. So I think for victims like Peggy, what needs to happen is in these stalking cases, while they're waiting for their trial, the police department, the justice system needs to come in and put them in a safe place. Where they are watching them, like a witness protection sort of thing.

• 53:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I, I like that idea and the reason I like that idea is, is for the same reason I'm going to pose this question to all of you. And I'll go back to what you just said there, but the question I have for everybody right now. Take a second, pause this episode. I truly want to hear from you this because I think people have personal experiences that could really shed some light on this because I'm going to give you two sides to the story. You have the one side where you have the Peggy's of the world. Where they're a complete victim, they're telling the truth, they're doing nothing wrong and nobody's helping them. And the person who's responsible for causing this, this pain is out there walking the streets. On the other hand, there are many instances where you'll have someone use the judicial system to retaliate against someone by making false accusations.

• 54:02Derrick Levasseur?

  And so the judicial system is, is tasked with deciding who's telling the truth and making sure that they don't put somebody in prison for a crime they didn't commit. So I ask all of you, what do we do here? Where is the balance? How do we as a society, because we can pressure the legislators and the just, the people in charge of these systems to make changes, but what is- What is the proper move here? Because I'll tell you, as I'm sitting here, I don't know. I don't know what the, because we have a lot of people who are in prison right now for crimes they didn't commit. So if we start locking people up or putting people in prison or in, you know, just a way until trial, they may not have done anything. But what Stephanie just said, to get back to what you just said, which is, I think, important,

• 54:45Derrick Levasseur?

  even if we can't put someone in prison for allegations against them, what's the harm in providing protection for the person making those accusations? If they're asking for it, they're asking to go away somewhere, they're asking to be protected. Now, if you offer those services and they say, no, I don't want that, I want you to lock him up.

• 55:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 55:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Now it's on them.

• 55:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right.

• 55:05Derrick Levasseur?

  So I love that suggestion.

• 55:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Provide that option, this domestic violence safe house, and of course, it's going to be.

• 55:11Derrick Levasseur?

  They do have those, by the way.

• 55:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  They, yes, they do, but not kind of like run by the police where they can make sure that there's police protection. They can make sure that somebody's not finding out where you are, you know, they have like privately run things. They're very hard to get into. There's never enough space, by the way. And oftentimes, they don't provide, you know, capacity for the children. So if you have children and you can't bring them, so there's a lot of things going on. But if there was a police-led sort of domestic violence safe house, and also stop delaying the frickin' trial. Okay? So make it as fast as possible because somebody's being stalked, somebody's afraid for their life. And so say, okay, here's the trial date, we're not pushing it, we are not pushing it over and over and over again.

• 55:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  And for this month and a half, we are going to provide you a place where nobody can ever find you, where there's 24/7 police protection, and until you go to that courtroom, we will accompany you there. And until you go there, you will be under police protection the entire time, if that is what you wish. Is that what you wish? And if the person's like, absolutely, all right, get her the hell out of there, get her in the safe house. And if they're like, no, no, I don't want to, you know, what if my friends want to hang out with me and I don't want to leave my house? Well, maybe it's not as serious as they're making it out to be. So this is a good option and it should be considered as a potential.

• 56:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I completely agree. I also wonder if. I don't know if it'd be practical, but something like a ankle bracelet like you see when people get out of, out of prison or on probation.

• 56:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, they can just take them off, though.

• 56:37Derrick Levasseur?

  But if they take it off, you, you know.

• 56:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 56:39Derrick Levasseur?

  You know that they've taken it off, but maybe not put them in prison, but say, hey, we're putting a device inside the home because the victim doesn't want to leave their home. They have kids or whatever. They can't leave. Um, we're going to put a device there or they can wear a device when they leave the house where if you come within 300 feet of that, it's going to, it's going to notify law enforcement immediately and it's going to send your location. I don't even know if this is a thing. Did I just create something? But I know it's a thing, but not using this, in this for, this way, right? Like you put the device on the offender or you accuse the vendor.

• 57:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  It has been, it has been used in that way because I remember covering a case a few months ago where a man was stalking and harassing this woman and he had beaten her up a few times.

• 57:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 57:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that was the only reason that police took it seriously. They arrested him and then they set a trial date for him and they put an ankle monitor on him.

• 57:24Derrick Levasseur?

  To know where he was.

• 57:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that they would know where he was. And then they did this like geo fencing thing. So wherever she was, her house, her, her employment.

• 57:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I thought it was on to something, but I'm glad to hear it's already out there.

• 57:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  To those areas that it would go off. Now, the thing is.

• 57:37Derrick Levasseur?

  It would automatically notify law enforcement.

• 57:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but the thing is because it's like a cross state thing, then there's multiple law enforcement entities involved and they didn't get to her soon enough, even though they saw that he had violated it and that he had.

• 57:50Derrick Levasseur?

  No perfect system. I think that, I think your alternative is the best way. If it's that severe, hey, we are a little, willing to provide a service to you where we will help you get away.

• 57:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  If the victim believes it's that severe, yeah.

• 58:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. If, we know it's an inconvenience. We're not arguing that it's not, but if you're in fear of your life, that is more important than anything else. We will help you, we'll help your kids, we'll talk to your job, whatever we gotta do.

• 58:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 58:10Derrick Levasseur?

  And the services will be provided for you. You'll have housing where you won't have to, you don't have to work because you won't have to pay for that stuff and whatever. There's gotta be something, but yes.

• 58:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or maybe, or maybe, you know, they still have to work. Their job's not going to let them do that. So you have a police escort who brings you to your job, stays outside, you know?

• 58:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Police escorts are tough.

• 58:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, but.

• 58:29Derrick Levasseur?

  It's, it's, I, I'm all for it.

• 58:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  You have to offer people something. You can't just.

• 58:33Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm all for the police. The problem is resources and personnel. Like sometimes you have one or two guys working a shift.

• 58:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think that they under, that they clearly understand how far some of these people will go.

• 58:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, I mean, well, that we're learning. We're learning that it will go that far. It's a matter of. How many people can we devote to those services that people may potentially need?

• 58:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I mean, maybe pull police off of highways, just trying to ping people for speeding every now and then like, oh, you were going 65 in a 54.

• 59:02Derrick Levasseur?

  But that person could speed and kill someone, a family of six, traveling for vacation.

• 59:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's lots of places where there's no, like, there's places in Europe where there's no speed limits and there's not any more accidents.

• 59:12Derrick Levasseur?

  You're going down the wrong road here.

• 59:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, I think that...

• 59:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Just allow everyone to speed? Is that really the argument you're making?

• 59:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I'm not making that argument, but I just don't think we need as many police. Dude, sometimes I'm driving down the highway for 15 minutes, I see four cops parked on the side of the road.

• 59:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, we were on a good note where we were agreeing on everything, so I'm gonna avoid this battle right now because you know what? It was a good thing, it felt great.

• 59:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright.

• 59:33Derrick Levasseur?

  So I'm just not gonna acknowledge what you just said and we're gonna keep on going.

• 59:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, let's keep on going.

• 59:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Cool, love you.

• 59:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye. So Peggy's family, they see what's happening with the police, they see what's happening in the media, and they're like, no, we are gonna set the story straight. And Peggy's sister, she starts calling the papers and she says, hey, you've got some inaccurate information, let me tell you the real story. And eventually, more detailed articles began appearing in papers outlining the long chain of events that had led to Peggy's death. But even then, Debbie found herself frustrated by the dismissive tone of some public officials who were interviewed for the articles. One official said, quote, "If someone wants you bad enough, they're going to find a way to get you," end quote. Okay, okay. That's a, that's a bad take.

• 1:00:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:00:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  To Debbie, that statement was infuriating. If the system had protected her sister Peggy, then this guy wouldn't have been able to get her. And Debbie believed that it was essential that the truth about what had happened to Peggy and the failures of the systems that were supposed to protect her would not be forgotten. So she began looking into how stalking cases were handled by law enforcement across the country, and she reached out to police departments and probation officers, asking questions and gathering information. So, yeah, Debbie has now made this her mission, right? To make sure that there's at least public awareness and that maybe it saves the lives of some women like her sister Peggy. And we're gonna talk about that when we get back from our last break.

• 1:01:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  A turning point came when Debbie saw Tracy Baum, the director of the stalking resource center, now known as SPARC, appear on the Today Show. Debbie knew she needed to talk to Tracy, so she searched online, found her email address, and wrote a long message detailing what had happened to Peggy, how the system had failed her, and why something had to change. Tracy called her the very next day, and during their conversation Debbie shared everything: Peggy's story, her own frustrations, and her growing concern that victims like Peggy were being overlooked and abandoned by the justice system. During the call Tracy asked Debbie, "If you could ask for one thing, what would be at the top of your list?" And for Debbie, the answer was very clear: funding. She asked, "Why can't we get funding so every law enforcement unit

• 1:01:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  across the United States has a dedicated stalking officer or team?" She imagined trained professionals who understood stalking, who could investigate cases properly, walk victims through the court system, and connect them with advocates, resources that had never been available to Peggy. After this call Debbie and Tracy stayed in touch, and it wasn't long before Tracy reached out with an opportunity to share Peggy's story on a much larger platform. She mentioned that Erin Brockovich, yes, the Erin Brockovich, my hero, Erin Brockovich was developing a television series called Ordinary Women, Extraordinary Lives, and she asked if Debbie would be interested in participating. Debbie didn't hesitate, she said yes, right away. She spent hours on the phone with one of the producers, walking them through Peggy's story from beginning to end.

• 1:02:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the impact was immediately obvious. Peggy's story left such a deep impression on the production team that they helped form a coalition that included Lifetime Television, the National Center for Victims of Crime, the stalking resource center, retired Lieutenant Mark Winn, a nationally recognized stalking expert and law enforcement trainer, and New Mexico Congresswoman Heather Wilson. Their goal was to raise awareness about stalking and its devastating, often deadly, consequences. They set up a time to speak at a congressional briefing and invited Debbie to join them as well. Debbie, at that time, was nine months pregnant, but she was not about to miss this incredible opportunity for her sister. She said yes and traveled to Washington DC, where she shared Peggy's story in front of lawmakers and advocates.

• 1:03:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  She ended with a powerful statement: "To honor my sister's last request and a tribute to her memory, the daughter that I am now carrying will be named after her." We can never have Peggy back, but maybe my testimony today can help keep other families from going through what my family has gone through. In America, no one should have to live the life of fear like Peggy did, and no one should have to experience the pain of losing a loved one the way we lost Peggy. After Debbie spoke, she listened as experts from the stalking resource center presented on the need for systemic change. Congresswoman Wilson then introduced legislation that would designate January as National Stalking Awareness Month in Peggy's honor.

• 1:04:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  And for Debbie, having a national month dedicated to Peggy's story held a very deep meaning. She said, quote, "It speaks volumes about the impact of her story," end quote. And that impact was only beginning. While standing in the halls of the Capitol, Congresswoman Wilson spoke with Debbie about the gaps and how stalking was being addressed. She explained that although all 50 states had stalking laws, there was a critical piece still missing: education. The public and law enforcement lacked the awareness and training needed to recognize stalking and respond appropriately. Victims needed to understand that stalking was a crime and feel empowered to report it, and officers needed to take those reports seriously. That conversation shifted everything for Debbie.

• 1:04:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was the moment she realized that Peggy's story could be used to educate others and that this would be her way forward. Debbie set out on a lifelong mission to educate the world on stalking. She has many accomplishments, including a roll call training video, which is a short educational video for law enforcement. The 17-minute video is divided into two parts. The first half is Debbie sharing Peggy's story, including the 911 call she made just moments before she was murdered. The second half features Mark Winn, speaking directly to officers, emphasizing why stalking needs to be taken seriously and showing how straightforward intervention can sometimes be. The video has become a cornerstone of Debbie's work, and it marked the beginning of her

• 1:05:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  mission to educate law enforcement and ensure that Peggy's legacy would not only be remembered, but would help save lives.

• 1:05:37Derrick Levasseur?

  This is incredible, by the way, and it's exactly what we've been describing over the last two episodes. In no way making excuses for law enforcement, but the lack of education around it, understanding... The layers to stalking and what it involves and how it's not always as overt as a crime would be. And you have to be able to read between the lines and see what the offender is doing and how they're progressively getting worse. And yes, ultimately, when someone comes in, you have to take the matter seriously. You have to invest the time in it to understand if there's some validity to what they're saying. And if it's a, if it's a safety issue that you have to address immediately. And unfortunately, where we are now is much better than where we were then, but it came at the cost of lives.

• 1:06:19Derrick Levasseur?

  We had to learn from our mistakes and we have to see through this education where people like Debbie. And then I also always go back to like John Walsh and things like that where they, they fucked up his, his son's case as well. But you think about these different instances where some of it was preventable, not Adam's case, but the way they handled it afterwards. I'm talking about, but this case was preventable. And you have officers in roll call, you know, before their shift, seeing this. And it does not only educate them, but I also want to tell you, for me, seeing these types of videos, it motivated me. Because I realized that I could, I could stop it, that these people like Patrick were out there. And there were also women and men like, like, like Peggy, who were out there in search of our help.

• 1:07:01Derrick Levasseur?

  And I wanted to be that person that when I showed up, I actually did that for them. And you didn't want to be the officer that was called to Peggy's call and didn't act. You didn't want to be the officers in, in Gabby Petito's case, who had an opportunity during that domestic violence incident in the van on the side of the road. Where I think it was Moab, am I saying that right?

• 1:07:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, Moab, Moab, Utah.

• 1:07:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Had an opportunity to save Gabby's life and didn't. I don't ever want to be them. I want to be the person out there that proves to the community, to, to society, that there are good officers who will step in and do what they signed up for. And I will tell you the impact that it has when it comes from the victim or a victim's family member. When they, when they explain to you, I'm living proof that this can happen and this is the impact it has on me even now. There's no way, if you have a heartbeat, you don't leave that roll call with it, with a new level of understanding. And also a motivation to go out there and find these guys before they're able to hurt anybody.

• 1:08:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, education is obviously huge. I think the officers involved in these police departments need to want to be educated. And I think a lot of them are, you know, stuck in. In old ways, but as long as there is maybe at least one person in each police department who is very educated on this kind of thing, what it can look like, how dangerous it can become, as long as you have that one person there, they can kind of counsel everyone else when cases like this pop up. Now Debbie has spent the years since Peggy's murder, not only working to change laws and educate law enforcement, but also speaking directly to victims and survivors and the public. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing stalking for what it truly is, a serious

• 1:08:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  and potentially deadly crime. Debbie often reminds people that downplaying stalking gives offenders room to escalate, and that unchecked behavior can quickly turn violent. She also spoke about how dangerous it can be to minimize a victim's fear. She told us, quote, "You don't want to minimize what's happening to them," end quote. And that is true, because a lot of these victims have been love bombed, have been gaslit, have been manipulated, so they're going to sometimes search for external validation for what they're feeling internally, because they don't trust themselves anymore. And when the people around them are like, "Ah, it's no big deal, like, he'll get over it," they're going to question themselves about, you know, how they're feeling, and we never want to do that.

• 1:09:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  In her public education efforts, Debbie shares practical advice for how to support stalking victims. She says the first step is to believe and validate them, always. That means not questioning or minimizing what they share. Don't say things like, "Well, maybe they just miss you," or "They probably didn't realize it was bothering you." Instead, say things like, "That sounds scary," or "I can see why that would be upsetting." Debbie also encourages people to focus on the offender's actions, not the victim's response. Even well-meaning friends can accidentally shift blame by asking questions like, "Well, why did you respond to that text message?" Instead, shift the focus where it belongs. It's not right that they keep texting you. Nothing the victim does justifies the stalker's behavior. None of this is the victim's fault. Debbie also urges people to respect a victim's privacy and safety.

• 1:10:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  That means never sharing information with the stalker and asking the victim who else they've told before involving others. If a victim opens up to you, help them through options, whether it's reading more about stalking on the SPARC website, contacting local advocates, or reaching out to law enforcement. And if they aren't ready to take action, that's okay too. Respect their choices. Debbie also highlights the importance of seeing stalking as a pattern of behavior, not isolated incidents. She said, quote, "Stalking isn't a one-off. It's not just someone driving by and kicking over your trash cans. If you step back, you might see a series of events. Trash cans kicked over, tires slashed, patio windows broken, and maybe even your dog being poisoned. That's four things right there. It's not random." End quote.

• 1:10:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Recognizing the pattern is essential for building a case and keeping victims safe. She also talks about the role bystanders can play. She says, quote, "Sometimes we have to read between the lines. Victims don't always come right out and say, 'I'm being stalked,' but they may express fear in indirect ways, like, 'Would you come to the library with me tonight, just in case,' end quote. Debbie says it's important to take these cues seriously and to understand what the victim might really be trying to say. In January of 2004, the very first National Stalking Awareness Month was formally recognized, a milestone that marked the beginning of an annual effort to bring attention to stalking and improve resources for victims. In addition to National Stalking Awareness Month, each year on January 18th, the anniversary

• 1:11:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  of Peggy's death, SPARC hosts a Day of Action to raise awareness about stalking, honor Peggy, and support other victims. The event encourages people to sparkle against stalking in Peggy's memory. Debbie explained that Peggy had a sparkling personality. As the stalking continued and continued, we saw that shine fade. Now, there's one photo of Peggy, now widely known, that captures her before the stalking began. In it, her eyes are full of light and her smile gleams. Debbie said that after the stalking started, Peggy no longer looked like that. She looked as if the light had been completely drained out of her. Debbie said, quote, "Being traumatized by stalking can suck the life out of a victim, physically, mentally, and psychologically," end quote.

• 1:12:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  All her hard work has been more than worth it. She's had people approach her after presentations and say, "I'm alive because of your sister." She also heard from law enforcement officers who, after receiving stalking training, were able to better protect victims and prevent harm. She knows that lives are being saved because they decided to tell Peggy's story. Now, in speaking with us, she reflected on how Patrick tried to silence Peggy. She said, quote, "He wanted nothing more than to shut her up, shut her down, and make sure no one ever heard from her again. But his plan backfired because more people know Peggy now than when she was alive," end quote. And that's absolutely true. I mean, I wish we didn't have to know about Peggy. I wish that she could have lived a happy life, become a doctor, become a mother,

• 1:13:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  not been known by hundreds of thousands of people around the world. But the fact of the matter is, if this had to happen, the outcome is that we get to hear Peggy's story, talk about it, and those who may be experiencing similar things can have that bolstering effect of like, "Hey, it's not me. I'm not crazy. This is wrong. And now I know that there's resources that I can utilize."

• 1:13:30Derrick Levasseur?

  That's exactly what I said first episode. It's unfortunate that we're having to do this, but it's why we cover cases, both unsolved and solved. Unsolved cases, we're covering to get the exposure on those cases, get eyes and ears on what happened, and to try to get the community to come together to help solve the case and push law enforcement to do more with what they have. With the solved cases... We're putting information out there so that you can, I've always said this, like these true crime cases to me are almost like history books. We can look at the information, we can dissect it, we can analyze it, we can discuss it, and we can learn from it.

• 1:14:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because like history, it repeats itself.

• 1:14:04Derrick Levasseur?

  It's gonna repeat itself, right? But we can change the outcome. And we've seen that with history, where we're obviously doing things much different as a society now than what we were doing even 10, 20, 30 years ago. So, uh, just all the respect and admiration goes to, to, to Debbie, because I've said it on other cases, I just, I don't know if I would have the ability to do what she, what these people in these positions do, where they take this tragedy and they, it, it lights a fire in them to basically dedicate their entire life to making sure it doesn't happen to others. And that's just something, it takes a special person.

• 1:14:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think you absolutely would. I, I don't think you would have it in you to forgive. Like, I think when people are like, oh, I forgive the person who did this to my loved one, I don't think either one of us would ever be able to offer that forgiveness. I'm sorry, it's just not in us. But to use your voice, your platform, to shine a light on it and hopefully help others, it's exactly what you do now.

• 1:14:58Derrick Levasseur?

  I'd like to think so. I hope I'm never put in that position to find out. And, and it's just, we have a lot of different people from different walks of life who tune into this. Some people are victims, some people might be on the verge of being offenders. And then we also do have law enforcement that watches and listens to these episodes. I know it because they reach out to me. And so the more people, the better to hear Peggy's story. And I love the fact that even though we're not going to get Peggy back, as Debbie said, more people know about her now than they did when she was alive. And, and that's, that's obviously not what you would like, but if there's anything that comes out of it, I'm happy to hear that it's that. And there's officers every day now who are learning about Peggy and her story and what they can do to prevent other Peggy's out there from

• 1:15:40Derrick Levasseur?

  becoming victims. So I'm glad we covered it. I'm learning from it, just as much as I hope you guys are learning from it as well, because as I continue to cover cases in the future and I have people reach out to me, you have better ideas on how to handle these situations moving forward. And I hope as a society, especially as a law enforcement community, we get better where these types of stories become obsolete. Very soon, where you and I aren't covering them anymore because they're not occurring.

• 1:16:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, in a perfect world, that would be.

• 1:16:09Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what we gotta strive for, right? Perfection. We may never get there.

• 1:16:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we will never get there.

• 1:16:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

• 1:16:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  But we gotta try, right?

• 1:16:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely. Any final words from you?

• 1:16:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I'm really glad we covered this case and I know for a fact it's gonna help and impact a lot of people who are listening and watching, so that's good to know. Thank you guys so much for being here to hear about it.

• 1:16:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Definitely, and thank you to Debbie and Peggy's family for allowing us to cover the story. As you just said in this last couple of minutes, Debbie is basically the voice for Peggy at this point. So it's not guaranteed that she's gonna let someone else tell her sister's story, when she's been doing such an amazing job. So for her to allow us the opportunity to share Peggy's story with you guys, and to allow us to give our opinions on it. It's, we really do appreciate it and we hope we did this story justice. As always, we have the Numbers for Domestic Violence hotline. I'm gonna give them to you again right now. The number is 1-800-799-7233. You can also begin a text with them as well, if you don't want to call. And it's 88788.

• 1:17:13Derrick Levasseur?

  So all you have to do is text that number and you'll be in communication with someone. Listen, there are a lot more resources out there now. As we've discussed, if you are going through a situation where maybe it doesn't even rise to the level of a crime at this point, there are still services available. Don't hesitate, reach out, find out what you have at your disposal, and get the help you need to maybe prevent this from going any further. We appreciate you guys being there. As always, stay safe out there. We'll see you next week.

• 1:17:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.