Episode 3: Kelly Starrett and Dr. Justin Mager

This episode features two incredible guests: Dr. Justin Mager and Kelly Starrett. We all drink wine and get crazy. Dr. Mager is my personal doctor and has helped me with dozens of my crazy experiments, complete with blood testing and next-gen tracking. Kelly Starrett is one of the top Crossfit coaches in the world, and one of my favorite PTs and performance trainers. His clients include Olympic gold medalists, Tour de France cyclists, world and national record holders in Olympic lifting and powerlifting, Crossfit Games medalists, ballet dancers, and elite military personnel. If you're interested in taking your body or mind to the next level, or attempting to become the guy from Limitless, this episode is for you. Enjoy!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Tim Ferriss?

  Greetings, boys and girls. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to The Tim Ferriss Show. In this episode, we have two incredible guests and friends of mine. We have Kelly Starrett, who is a performance coach, athletic mastermind. He is one of the co-founders of SF CrossFit, which was one of the first 50 CrossFit affiliates, and his clients include Olympic gold medalists, Tour de France cyclists, world and national record-holding Olympic lifting and power athletes, cross games medalists, ballet dancers, you name it, special forces. He has also worked with me when I was doing training and research for the 4-Hour Body. We go back quite a ways. He is a monster. He can do a standing backflip, run an ultra marathon, and can also, I think,

• 0:41Tim Ferriss?

  power clean 300-plus pounds. He's a beast. And then, the other person we have joining us, or joining me, joining you guys, is Dr. Justin Mager, who's been my personal doctor and go-to performance doc for several years now. Many years, in fact. And he is an MD. He also has a background in exercise physiology. And when it comes to performance enhancement, or living an optimal lifestyle and not just getting your recommended daily allowance and surviving, he is my go-to man. And of course, as it would have it, in SF, Kelly and Justin know one another, so we had a bunch of wine and decided to mind-meld. And that is this

• 1:24Tim Ferriss?

  episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. I apologize for the background jazzy Euro music, but I am currently in Verbier, Switzerland, for the first time. I highly recommend it. Looking out at the mountains here. No better place to record an intro. And I hope you enjoy the show. Thanks for listening.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half-mile before my hands start to shake.

• 1:48Speaker 02

  Can I ask you a personal question?

• 1:50Tim Ferriss?

  Well, it would seem appropriate.

• 1:54Speaker 02

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 2:03Tim Ferriss?

  We are fucking live at Casa Ferris and this is the first podcast threesome that I've dared to venture into, but I have two fine gentlemen, two scholars and gentlemen, Kelly Starrett, doctor, professor, Justin Mager, and yes, I've been fucking with the audio and it took me so long, we've already had two and a half glasses of wine on empty stomachs, but I think this is gonna be a good session. It's an experiment like everything else. So it'll take us a little while to get past the awkward formality of this extremely clumsy podcast intro, but Kelly, for those who don't know you, who is Kelly Starrett?

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Dancer. Well, you can't see on the, you can't see on the podcast, but these are my real calves.

• 2:53Tim Ferriss?

  Even through the table, I can feel them pulsating.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 2:58Tim Ferriss?

  Engorged calves.

• 2:59Speaker 03

  We started, people may know me because I showed up a little bit in For Our Body.

• 3:05Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:06Speaker 03

  That's when we first, you sent a tweet out in the universe, you know, I need some deadlifting help, da-da-da. We kind of, we kind of went down the rabbit hole a little bit on that.

• 3:13Tim Ferriss?

  I have tight quads, my back is bent out of shape.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  Weird how that works.

• 3:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 3:17Speaker 03

  You're a male athlete, check the box.

• 3:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 3:19Speaker 03

  You know, our handle is at Mobility Wad. We started a little project in open source. Why doesn't everyone know how to fix themselves? Which is what I'm, you know, sitting here with Dr. Major, which is so good.

• 3:31Tim Ferriss?

  And we have this like Bermuda Triangle.

• 3:34Speaker 03

  Oh, for sure.

• 3:34Tim Ferriss?

  Of knowledge sharing. We've all known each other for a while.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, what's interesting is the shift for me, as we kind of were gearing up and talking about this, is the shift away from personally around performance. I've sort of been obsessed and a performance whore for as long, you know, let's lift more, let's go faster. It's always our proof of concept. You're in a better position, let me show you because you can generate more wattage.

• 3:58Tim Ferriss?

  Correct.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  But I have to be honest, I mean, I feel like that's this 1% and that the people we need to be talking about are moms and dads, people who are in pain, how to prevent this stuff in the first place. These are the bigger conversations.

• 4:11Tim Ferriss?

  Co-founder, co-creator, co-conspirator of SF CrossFit.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  Yep, with my wife Juliette.

• 4:17Tim Ferriss?

  That's right, sweetheart, and can probably outlift me also. And as well as your, how old, five-year-old?

• 4:24Speaker 03

  I have an eight-year-old and a five-year-old.

• 4:26Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I think your five-year-old can also out-front squat me.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  Uh, can I, can I jump in just for one second?

• 4:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yes, you may.

• 4:31Speaker 03

  Sixty Minutes has been following us around for like since October. And they were like, hey, can you show-

• 4:37Tim Ferriss?

  Since October, that's a long time. That's a lot longer than Sixty Minutes. I had to pull it because everyone gives me the four-hour shit.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  Oh, do they really? Yeah, how funny how that works. Uh, I don't know how many hours they're gonna use, but the best, the best moment for me was we have the, the, they're like, hey, can you show proof, proof of your, like, your concept with the correspondent? I was like, no problem. Let's, let's do something easy like picking something up. So here's this bar, everyone should be able to bend over, keep your back flat. Everyone agrees you shouldn't round your back when you pick something heavy, right? That actually is easier said than done. And so, of course, she just rounds and rounds and rounds and we're just teaching, hey, you just gotta be able to lift and reach into the crib without rounding your back for your baby.

• 5:15Tim Ferriss?

  Just hit her with the birch stick?

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Basically. Stop saying, and um, she uh, she couldn't do it. And uh, on camera, everything's there live, and I was like, well, why don't we pull in an athlete who can do it? So I was like, Georgia, my eight-year-old. Comes right in, doesn't, she, it must be my daughter, doesn't even flinch on camera, like producers, microphones. But just dead lifts it up, and it was like twenty-five, thirty pounds, not a big deal, but just, and then she kinda looks at the, you know, correspondent, it's like, wow, like, what's your problem? And uh, and literally you can see the producers back in there like, that's good TV.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  I have daughters who, we don't want them to be professional athletes, not my, I, if you, I'm interested to get your takes on this. If you could have a kid, and would you, you know, we'll ask this later on, but you know, would you let them be athletes?

• 6:03Tim Ferriss?

  It's a great question. Well, we'll come back to that.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  We'll come back.

• 6:06Tim Ferriss?

  Because I think that's a big topic.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:09Tim Ferriss?

  It's an important topic. But before we do that, part three of this amazing trilogy.

• 6:17Tim Ferriss?

  Dr. Major, Dr. Jay, Justin. We've known each other for a while. We've, you've been my doctor for many different things. Helped me review blood tests and all the ridiculous, various masochistic things that I do to myself.

• 6:34Tim Ferriss?

  And what appealed to me about your background, among other things, is you do have a sports background. Yet you also have a practicing medical background. And I think that combination sort of allows you to understand the malfunction that I have, which is this compulsive self-testing.

• 6:51Tim Ferriss?

  So I just, I'm really happy that three of us are here because I feel like you guys cover so much complimentary ground.

• 6:59Tim Ferriss?

  But maybe you could give people a little bit of background on yourself and just what you're up to these days.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, just as you said, we'll henceforth refer to me as Justin.

• 7:12Speaker 03

  You saw Justin Grudzimick?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:14Tim Ferriss?

  Major?

• 7:14Speaker 01

  I will refer to myself in the third person as Justin.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I do, I have an exercise physiology background and degree. I mean, in that really, I had no agenda towards medicine. I was just kind of curious to go to college. After my, you know, football career was not going to make it much further than high school. But, you know, I was interested in human performance and kind of, and just human experience. Like what makes us alive, what makes us tick.

• 7:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, true or false, did you have a pull-up rack in your office?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  I do, absolutely.

• 7:52Speaker 03

  They go bam.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  And that was.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  New screen device, do you have a good doctor, yes or no?

• 7:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:56Tim Ferriss?

  That was, yeah, when you showed up, you're like, yeah, that's.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Is my doctor gonna die before I do? If yes, find another doctor. Right, absolutely. So, you know, I actually just wanted to, you know, study physiology. How does our body work and how can we have it perform? And I actually, by the way, my, my fifth year of undergrad. I was on that plan too. Absolutely.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  That's a lot of fingers and toes. But I overheard two, two classmates behind me, you know, just lamenting how difficult it was to get into physical therapy school at the time. And they said, wow, it's almost as difficult as medical school. And we have all the prerequisites. And it was the first time of my mind, I'm like, you know what? I don't really want a fucking job. And I'm really interested in the human body. And so why don't I just kind of, you know, delve into med school? And so, you know, I looked into it, took the few remaining classes I needed to get and went into it. I had no idea. I didn't even, I didn't even have healthcare growing up.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  My father's physician, my grandfather's physician. And I was like, no way I'm going to PT school. I mean, like that was, that was like a med school, no, PT school, yes, it's so interesting. You just need to know one doctor. So I think I'm like, and major is my doctor too.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, here we are. Wow, yeah, no, absolutely. That's scary. I hope you guys haven't been looking at your blood work.

• 9:19Speaker 03

  True fact, he has.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  No, it's, it's all. True or false? You guys are definitely gonna live through the weekend. Eats more fish oil than fishes can consume. Yeah, no, so anyways, so, you know, I, I went through the training, but, um, you know, with, with some interest in orthopedics. But, you know, the more I got into it, the more I was still interested in sort of, okay, what makes us well? What makes us thrive? I mean, it just made the most sense. And so that's kind of when I went through, I, I became interested in endocrinology because I just felt that if you can kind of understand the hormone systems and how they would have such local effects on cells and global effects on kind of, you know, directly on your physiology and, and secondarily on your behavior, which obviously is gonna, you know, feed back and affect your physiology. It made the most sense.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And I also, you know, became really interested in, you know, kind of Eastern philosophy. I've always been sort of a searcher and I felt it fascinating that the, the chakras that are described in kind of.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yoga culture, Ayurveda culture, um, yeah, corresponded to these like nerve plexi, which are these little mini brains outside of our brain and also these endocrine hormone glands. And so, uh, you know, I came across some work from Joseph Campbell and Hyric Zimmer, where they're talking about the relational issues of the chakra. And it just made so much sense. So that was my intention. Other than, once I got further along in the conventional medical model, I just could not understand their black and white etiology. We're going to treat the absolute abnormal highs and the absolute abnormal lows, but this very wide range of gray that we all live and function with, we're not going to touch that. That's normal.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. If you're listening and you don't know, I mean, people may not know, but you have worked as a functional medicine, like, basically, let me just tell a backstory. My wife, after her second child, um, basically bled to death during, right? During birth and had seven transfusions, I think.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Right. And, uh, when we finally bumped into Dr. Major, you know, her, her, Juliet's hematocrit was terrible, ferritin was zero. I mean, just really, really, really low. B vitamins tanked. And this major who started, was you were the physician who started to put the pieces together and taking the school approach. And that's where we really became, you know, I was always like, hey, why are we on the, working mechanically as a physio at the limits of your range? Why don't you, why can't you just be full human? And it was the first person I ever run into as a physician who said, you know, being, you know, being down at this bottom end is not, that means you're alive. That's the RDA. The minimum dose of vitamin C to keep you as a human being, that's not thriving. And you changed my family's life.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  I mean, you resurrected Juliet from headaches and death and, you know, and all the gnarlyness back into a, like a full-fledged, you know, woman. You, you changed so many of my friends' lives by just taking a bigger, bigger, bigger picture, which is what we've got to get people to do. I mean, that's what's so interesting.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I mean, it's, it's very humbling because I think, you know, the more that I look into things, the more blown away at the complexity of trying to understand how all the pieces of physiology work together and how the human body works together. And, and to me, I think that. You know, looking down the road, when we start leveraging the power of technology intelligently to apply it to health and human performance, we're gonna have some really incredible finds. But, uh, but you know, one thing that you, we had said, you know, off camera or off, uh, off recorder, I should say,

• 12:57Speaker 01

  is is that, you know, when we're looking at high-end performance, it is, it is so fancy and it is beautiful. It's a beautiful art form to see people perform at their highest. But I think that what, where humanity and where we as individuals stand to gain the most is to actually take those principles and apply it, uh, to the rest of us. You know what I mean? So like, whereas like, you, you got, you know, Tim, you're out here experimenting on the fringes of physiology and where, what limits can you push? And Kelly, you're over here working with, you know, really impressive, you know, high-end athletes in military and all the people that you've shared with me that you've worked with.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  And you're trying to get that, that extra one or two or three percent that's gonna make a difference between a 10th place finish at the CrossFit Games, say in a second place or first place finish. When you can actually take those same principles and apply them to the rest of us, then you're gonna see 30, 40, 50, 60% gains in function, in health and vitality.

• 14:02Speaker 03

  You know, what's so, people don't understand is that it's not this, we move the needle 1%, 1%. Now you, you know, I read your book, really, The Four Hour Body, like legitimately, and, and was like, ah, this is, this is like reading like best practice, you know, which is so, because you basically took best practice for people, you know, and they're, you know, I'm not eating cinnamon and doing squats in the, in the stairwell, but you get the idea, right?

• 14:30Speaker 01

  We all have our own real weird, you know, it's, that's my choice.

• 14:33Speaker 03

  But, but what you did was, was really give people a manifesto for pulling out the big holes about, are you sleeping enough?

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 03

  You know, are you like, more and more, I realized you can't achieve physiology. You, you can't deny your stress level. You can't deny your sleep. You can't deny your nutrition. You can't deny your hydration. You can't deny your movement practice. And, you know, you really. I mean, now having written a book, I mean like

• 14:59Tim Ferriss?

  A big book.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  A big, heavy book, and we're in the second edition and two more.

• 15:02Tim Ferriss?

  Congratulations.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think.

• 15:04Tim Ferriss?

  I'm on the second page.

• 15:06Speaker 03

  I'm on the third.

• 15:07Tim Ferriss?

  Be careful what you ask for with that book stuff. Again, I keep reading it, yes.

• 15:11Speaker 03

  When I think about your, you know, the daunting task about putting people out of getting us out of the way, because, you know, we were just talking to someone the other day, our next door neighbor who has chronic headaches. He's out of shape, is French, eats a wretched diet, doesn't exercise, and she's getting Botox injections in her neck.

• 15:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yep, in her neck?

• 15:30Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 15:31Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, why?

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Cause her neck, cause the neck is causing the tight muscles causing the headache.

• 15:34Tim Ferriss?

  Obviously.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  And so, and

• 15:36Tim Ferriss?

  I thought maybe she had turkey neck, so she was like tightening it up with the Botox.

• 15:39Speaker 03

  You just have to tap the box. So, but you know, I think the problem is that people, there's so much misplaced precision. And you've said, you know, why aren't you looking at this? How are you measuring lifestyle nutrition? You were saying, you know, why aren't you just doing these basic things? And why can't you experiment on yourself? I think you've really given people, you know, I think there's a tide change where people are, are being responsible for their own health and nutrition differently, because we have access to technology. The QSing movement has qualitative, you know, self, has blown open what's possible. You really gave permission to think of like, I'm an N of one. Yeah. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna stop eating carbohydrates and what happens? Like, you have that right to tinker.

• 16:19Tim Ferriss?

  Absolutely.

• 16:19Speaker 03

  You came in and were like, hey, we can measure that. And if you're already doing this best practice, how do you know it's best practice?

• 16:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  And that was what was so amazing, because you're obviously like, I refer, we have complex friends, I refer them to Major. Like he's our, you know, I'm like, you should really talk to what's going on, you know, our guy. And what this has really done is saying, once you pull out the roadblocks, you may need some additional help to reset the system, the stasis. But, you know, now we're left with, how do we manage? How do we deal with people who we know are gonna be compromised? Your job's gonna compromise you because you're just under so much stress. You're a soldier, you're not gonna sleep, now what?

• 16:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  You know?

• 16:56Tim Ferriss?

  Well, that brings up, and if any of you can hear the, the odd talk, talk, talk, talk noise, that is a senile cat that lives above me that loves playing with the Super Bowl. So there you have it. That deserves more wine. Thank you, Kelly. Uh, Justin? Yes. I was gonna, I really do wanna call you Dr. Major. It just sounds so credible, which you are, of course. So I wanted to ask you Of the, uh, the common practices that you see in medicine, particularly as it pertains to blood testing or testing in general, just establishing a baseline, figuring out where you are. What are the most, what are some of the tests that you think are neglected?

• 17:38Tim Ferriss?

  What are some of the common, perhaps mistakes or glaring deficits of how traditional medicine approaches testing? So you can tackle that from any.

• 17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I'm just trying to figure out because there are a lot of people listening, I'm sure, who go to the doctor once a year, they get a snapshot, there's no trending. If they're in range, see you next year. That's it. You know what I mean?

• 18:01Speaker 03

  Checking engine oil, the check engine oil light is not on.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:04Speaker 03

  Carry on.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I, you know, I mean, it is a huge, it's a huge box to open. But, um, but, you know, a couple of the things that you, you know, kind of alluded to with even,

• 18:16Speaker 01

  even as you kind of led into that is that one is that first you have to kind of, there, there's a, there's a, there's a psyche and an ideology of like, we, we want to judge things as good and bad. Uh, and so there's this idea that inflammation is bad. This is good, you know, high cholesterol, bad. This is, you know, low cholesterol, good. And so like, one, you have to understand what blood testing actually represents. You know, so first of all, you said the first thing, it's a snapshot. It's a moment in time and we're not, uh, an object, we're a process. So you have to understand, you know, not only like, you have to understand the context of what you're,

• 18:57Speaker 01

  what the person or the individual is in comparatively to, you know.

• 19:02Speaker 03

  I'm listening and they're gonna get us more.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Carry on.

• 19:04Speaker 03

  More.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Grape.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  Extract.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, so, so, I mean, you know, say something like, you know, you, you know, there's some literature that suggests that if you have high LDL cholesterol, you can actually build more lean body mass at a quicker rate. So if you're in a strength building phase, it actually might be to your advantage to actually have that present. So, uh, so, so you need to know context, you need to know that it is a snapshot. Um, I actually think that it's a tragedy that testing is so damn expensive, given that technology in fields.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Like information technology and computers has increased exponentially at such a better price point, we need people to get many more data sets. And there are companies like Theranos that are out there trying to break that barrier down. But, you know, so I want more testing, I want context, and then you have to understand what the marker actually represents, not just a judgment of whether it's a good or bad marker. What the hell is cholesterol? You know, I like to ask that to physicians, especially if they're antagonizing me about my practice methods. You know, I say, hey, you know, what does, you know, what does cholesterol do? And it's interesting because a lot of them will take a step back into fumble because

• 20:19Speaker 01

  they're so indoctrinated into the algorithm of all I really need to do is identify high cholesterol and treat it versus understanding what the hell cholesterol, what purpose it serves in the human body. So when you're asking, Tim, like what markers I would look at, I mean, it's tough. I mean, I can tell you what I look at most, you know, commonly. Yeah, I'd love to hear that. You know, I mean, I look at things like homocysteine, which is a, which is a marker of metabolic efficiency. And, you know, conventional medicine looks at it as if it were elevated, it can increase your risk of having blood clots and strokes and heart attacks.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  But really, there's this common cause cog in the human body that takes carbon units and transfers them to other molecules, whether we're building things in the body. And so the ability of the body to actually do that is called methylation. It's donating a carbon and a hydrogen. And so methionine is an essential amino acid, is a main donor. And then you have B12 and folic acid, which are vitamins that are crucial for recycling that process to keep. The metabolism going efficiently. So like I look at it, I mean, and that's something where with Juliette, when we looked at her home assisting levels, it were, they were tremendously higher than you would want.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  You know, and so then we said, okay, wait a second, is she B12 deficient? Is she folic acid deficient? Does she have a gene variation that doesn't allow her to activate the folic acid properly? And so we went down those paths and we kind of uncovered that and sort of gave her body a break and gave it some relief and it allowed it to actually catch up metabolically, which strangely enough improved things like her mood. Correct?

• 22:09Speaker 03

  How about her awesomeness? But you know, you bring up, I mean, it's the first and foremost is that, you know, you're, in my education is given a cursory.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Cheers, boss.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Cheers. Again. Go.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Eye contact, eye contact. Thank you.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  The, um.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  He's Scandinavian here.

• 22:31Speaker 03

  I don't want bad sex for the really days. The.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  That would ruin our relationship.

• 22:37Speaker 03

  Again. I had to dig and go back and sort of review. I, I think one of the problems is, and I think you've done a good job of this, Tim, is that you've, you said, hey, look, if we give people better ideas, they'll make better, better information, they'll make better decisions. You, you absolutely just empower it. And people don't have any of the information, which is free, which is available. Now it's easy to find. Like when you started for our body, it was a wasteland. Like when you started.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  Super tough.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  And now if you have to honestly say that now, how many years later, so when did you start writing that book?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Two thousand eight.

• 23:10Speaker 03

  To two thousand now.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:13Speaker 03

  It is a completely different universe.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Different landscape.

• 23:16Speaker 03

  And you can go to gluten, get gluten free magazine at the, right? It'd be like something has changed. So if that's changed and people are taking fish oil, you know, you have to educate yourself because if you're not asking your physician or developing a relationship with your physician and hoping. That they're gonna initiate this conversation, you're wrong. And this is, I think, the real issue is that you've got to, it's on me to ask for some of these basics.

• 23:40Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, definitely. And I think also, and yeah, Justin, I love your two cents on this, but I, I, I imagine I'm somewhat compulsive with my blood testing. I've toned it down a little bit, but I mean, I used to do like every two to four weeks. Granted, I was doing some pretty fucked up stuff to myself, but, you know, now it's just once every two or three months.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  But it doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

• 24:01Tim Ferriss?

  That's right. That's right. Hormesis, hormesis. That's uh, it's kind of like Princess Bride, like I slowly take small amounts of poison so that when he goes against exactly the Sicilian, when death is on the line, then you win the game. So,

• 24:18Tim Ferriss?

  but how often do you feel people should, and I agree with you that it's, it's kind of silly how expensive it still is to, to have proper blood testing done. And I'm actually involved with a company called Sano Intelligence, which is hopefully going to develop

• 24:38Tim Ferriss?

  basically what looks like a nicotine patch that can do tracking of biomarkers and trending of biomarkers 24/7.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 24:45Tim Ferriss?

  We'll see, obviously. Yeah, like I, absolutely, right? And

• 24:50Speaker 03

  How do you know what you know? Honestly, you know?

• 24:52Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 24:53Speaker 03

  You know, people say diet and exercise. I love this. Greg Glassman is like, oh yeah? Which diet and what exercise, fool? You know what I mean? Like, really? And you mentioned something that was really latent. I think that, I don't know if, I don't know how much you stepped on this or not, but there is a genetic component to this whole thing.

• 25:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  It turns out, wait for it, I don't process saturated fats like everyone else does.

• 25:13Tim Ferriss?

  Right. You don't?

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. I can't eat bacon five meals a day and come out on scamp.

• 25:17Tim Ferriss?

  So how did, how did you figure this out?

• 25:20Speaker 03

  Because I had my blood tested and I had some of my genes tested. And what they said was, you don't handle the saturated fats. You need a little bit less saturated fat. You should be lean paleo or lean-ish, right?

• 25:30Tim Ferriss?

  Correct. So how did you change your diet, supplements, et cetera, as a result of that?

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Uh, well, essentially Major put me on some niacin.

• 25:38Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 03

  You know, that I ticker with, but

• 25:40Tim Ferriss?

  I like it just for the flush.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  I don't mind the flush. People freak out about the flush. I'm like, it's kind of feels, I don't mind. Maybe I should take some more flush again.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  Nice, nice and flushed.

• 25:50Tim Ferriss?

  Just wait until you have menopause, it's gonna be.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Truth.

• 25:55Speaker 03

  You know, what happened, you know, was that I stopped eating as much bacon. You know, the, the pieces for me, when I ran into major the first time.

• 26:05Tim Ferriss?

  So I thought that was an exaggeration, the bacon.

• 26:07Speaker 03

  No, no, really. And I stopped eating as much red meat, you know, because all the red meat I was eating was mostly grass fed.

• 26:15Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 26:15Speaker 03

  But sometimes it wasn't.

• 26:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  And so I made decisions, I started eating more fish, I started eating more chicken, I started eating more, you know, leaner, leaner things. And, and that has made a difference. I mean, but I was living the lie that I see so many people living, where like, oh, I can live on five hours. Oh, really? Oh, there's not a single study where you need only five hours of sleep. And people are like, oh, Bill Clinton. I'm like, yeah, and he had a hard fucking heart attack.

• 26:39Tim Ferriss?

  And plus, he's a fucking android. Like, I mean, he's like, he's Bishop from Aliens.

• 26:44Speaker 03

  That guy. Comma, heart attack.

• 26:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  He died.

• 26:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  We kept him alive.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  That's, we'd stop that. I mean, like, you know, but I, I think I stopped, I was traveling and not sleeping. You know, um, this is interesting. I work with the San Jose Sharks.

• 27:00Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Right. Uh, Mike Patenza is the great strength coach there, really integrated approach. But the Sharks have to travel as a hockey team, they have to travel in all the time zones. And they started working with the sleep researchers at Stanford. And Stanford, Shannon Turley and the, the strength physician there, they're doing like progressive integrated approach. Which is, which will talk, bring back something we said earlier, but the Stanford people say for every hour of time change. And all the people who are listening, who are time travelers, you know, they travel from east coast to west coast. It's an entire day for every hour.

• 27:30Tim Ferriss?

  Wow.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  And I started taking my.

• 27:32Tim Ferriss?

  So wait, what does that mean? So if you travel five hours across the country?

• 27:35Speaker 03

  Takes you five days to normalize again. That's how, have you ever seen this study?

• 27:39Tim Ferriss?

  What if you fuck yourself, well, fuck yourself, fuck with yourself. Here we go.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  You can only optimize.

• 27:44Tim Ferriss?

  Like melatonin.

• 27:45Speaker 03

  You can only optimize it. You're still, you're still.

• 27:47Tim Ferriss?

  Intermittent fasting might help too.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Right, that's right. So.

• 27:50Tim Ferriss?

  I'm gonna come back to that, so don't let me forget, or you can go for it.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  Well, this, this is it. So what, how, how do I minimize the compromise? Which is one of the things I keep asking.

• 27:58Tim Ferriss?

  Because a lot of people are only gonna be in one place for two days, right?

• 28:00Speaker 03

  Right.

• 28:00Tim Ferriss?

  Sharks, they're bouncing all over the place.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  And now you're screwed again.

• 28:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 03

  And all you have to do, you can get a blood glucose meter, which I think is the cheapest form of testing. Oh, really? You want to find out what the real truth is about your life? Go pay twelve dollars. Go to Walgreens and get a. Yeah, exactly. So I started taking my, my blood glucose, eating like a monk. Okay, I'm not gonna drink wine, I'm not gonna eat cookies, I'm gonna like. But I, I would come back and I would be, my, my blood glucose would be ninety nine. Because I would just be fucked up from the travel. And I'd be like, oh, prediabetic, that's great. And I'm doing everything right. And I'm prediabetic. And I would be prediabetic for like twenty four to forty eight hours. Wow. You know, and now I have a glass of wine to unwind because that's how I'm coping with the sympathetic stress. And you can see how whoop, I suddenly cycle into this peace. I stopped sleeping more, I have to travel less because I've been able to make some changes.

• 28:49Speaker 03

  I sleep plus nine hours a night. Yeah, me too, me too. Everything has changed. People always ask me, they're like, oh, you must sleep like two hours a night, like, it's a waste of time. I'm like, no, no, I love. Pounds of muscle, ten pounds. In what period? How long? Since October. That's a lot. Yeah, I mean. You're already pretty meaty dude. You're, you're like, one of your quads is probably my body weight, I guess. Ah, you know, you know. You know. On a, on a weekday.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  You know, there's, there was a study, uh, I think about two years ago now, where they calorically restricted two groups of individuals. And the intervention was that they restricted, they allowed one group to sleep eight hours. They restricted sleep to five hours in the second group. In that second, they both lost about the same amount of weight. Actually, the group that slept five hours a night lost like two kilos. And the group that slept eight hours lost one point nine kilos, right?

• 29:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 01

  Um, what they did that was more sophisticated was they did body.

• 29:44Speaker 03

  Body shop, yeah, cool.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Group that slept five hours lost sixty percent more muscle, fifty percent less fat. Group that slept than, than the group that slept eight hours.

• 29:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? So, um, there, there's.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  Huge.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  No doubt, you know what I mean? That, you know, getting that integration time and getting that sleep and that repair and that recovery. I mean, I always use the heart as a nice example of life where people are like, wow, the heart's always working. It's beating every, you know, as soon as it stops beating, you start beating, right?

• 30:13Speaker 03

  Right.

• 30:13Speaker 01

  Um, but no matter what the heart rate is, it maintains a one third work, two thirds rest ratio.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Uh, and so that's a great kind of thing that I think that we should bring into our lives. And it's one of those things where, um. I actually think that, you know, some of the work that you started with the self experimentation and then when you start having the, the, the personal digital health.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  Was it Neo? Was that the sleep thing? Zeo.

• 30:40Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, Zeo. Yeah, it's unfortunate. They went out of business.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Ben Rubin.

• 30:44Tim Ferriss?

  It was good. I really enjoyed that.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  It was ahead of its time. That's the problem. People don't understand what goal it was.

• 30:48Tim Ferriss?

  Well, not to like totally pull us off track, but there's no track. So there's no, uh, no fault there. The, there's, it's, it's unfortunate when you have fantastic ideas and implementation that are just two or three years early.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  It was two or three years early.

• 31:03Tim Ferriss?

  And as a result, it's really expensive, right? Because the componentry, especially in say hardware, hasn't become cheap enough. Uh, mass adoption isn't there. Like Quantified Self, I was at the very first Quantified Self meeting, I think it was in 2008, at Kevin Kelly's house, founding editor of Wired in Pacifica, just in a living room with 20 some people and a whiteboard. And I talked about performance enhancing drugs and freaked everybody out. It was great.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 31:30Tim Ferriss?

  And, uh,

• 31:34Tim Ferriss?

  and, uh,

• 31:37Tim Ferriss?

  it was a weird fringe thing then. It's like, but now how many people have Nike Fuel bands? How many people have Jawbone bands? How many people have Fitbits? And it's become a normal thing. And I remember people were asking me, they're like, when is this?

• 31:50Speaker 03

  How about counting your macronutrient blocks? That's QSing.

• 31:54Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 31:54Speaker 03

  I mean, like just being self-aware.

• 31:56Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah. Yeah. It's like, so, so, you know, Zeo was a few years ahead of its time and it just, as many are, when you're on the front line, it's like, all right, you're going to take the arrows first. You're just a couple of years early. It's just like, there were MP3 players before the, before the iPod, too early. And then Jobs came in and is like, thanks for doing a lot of free R and D for us. That looks really promising. Now we're going to kill you all.

• 32:19Speaker 03

  Here's what you can do. Have a cup of coffee at one o'clock in the afternoon. See how your quality of your sleep is. Don't drink caffeine after, but you keep your caffeine in the morning. I mean, you can test this. You know, these are where the zeal was a great way of actually measuring it and seeing it. The quality of your sleep sucks when you have that four o'clock pick me up.

• 32:39Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, definitely. And you know, it's, it's, uh, this is something that Seth Roberts has talked about a lot. Um, who's a professor of merit is from Berkeley. Have you guys ever met Seth?

• 32:47Speaker 03

  No.

• 32:47Tim Ferriss?

  He's an interesting guy. He's a very, very smart guy. He wrote this diet, he wrote a book called the Shangri-La Diet.

• 32:55Tim Ferriss?

  Which sounds almost as bad as the four hour work week in terms of like information, uh, or I'm sorry.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  Whatever. I named becoming a supple leopard because of you, motherfucker.

• 33:02Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, it's perfect. No, I like your title.

• 33:04Speaker 03

  Catchings in your car, you can't forget it. And you're like, what's a supple leopard? I'm like, for our body, bitches.

• 33:09Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 33:10Speaker 03

  Seriously, that was a, thank you very much, Tim Ferriss.

• 33:13Tim Ferriss?

  You're welcome. And it's like, the more like an infomercial product sounds, the, the, the more, the more mileage you're gonna get out of it. So supple leopard is fucking money. I like it.

• 33:24Tim Ferriss?

  Where the hell was I going with all this? So the

• 33:26Speaker 03

  The Shangri-La Diet.

• 33:27Tim Ferriss?

  That's right. So, so Seth noticed that if you consume calories, could literally be sugar water, sucrose in water. If you consume calories that are disassociated from a known food and you pinch your nose so you, you, you void the olfactory portion of it, you can inhibit your appetite by like 40%. Kilocalories consumed per day. It's fucking wild shit, right? And, uh,

• 33:55Speaker 03

  But, but how do we dissociate that in the first place?

• 33:58Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 03

  You know?

• 33:58Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, but what's, what's so fascinating, I mean, the point that Seth has made before, is that, you know, science is good at testing hypotheses. Traditional science is not good at coming up with novel ideas. And if you want to, and I think that the The American public and just the global public in general, but I think especially in the US, in lieu of religion, has come to treat like "science" in quotation marks as like the church, the gospel.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 34:29Tim Ferriss?

  And therefore, they're like, "Oh, well, how do you know that?" Have there been, they have a couple of buzzwords that they can throw around, which is like, "Has there been a double-blind placebo-control, blah blah blah, on diet?" And you're like, "No, because the following hundred reasons. No one can profit from it, therefore, it's hard to find funding. Secondly, it's a longitudinal study, really expensive. Thirdly, it's observational, so blah blah blah, they can't really, they can infer but not prove, cause and effect, blah blah blah blah." So what that means is like, if you really want to figure out, like, "Is coffee fucking up my sleep?", you have to do it yourself. It's not going to be sponsored by the government or the NIH, sorry. It's just not gonna happen. And if it's gonna happen, it's gonna take five to 10 years.

• 35:13Tim Ferriss?

  So, guess what? Surprise, you're responsible for your own life and you need to test it yourself. The good news is, with tools, whether it's a ZIO or you could use a band that, and this is an inference, obviously, but that measures movement, you can get an indication of what might be, say, deep sleep. And that's really empowering. I mean, I'm just like so excited. I cannot wait until we get to a point where you can track important biomarkers without a phlebotomist, right? Because right now, it's like, that's just expensive. It's a lot of people, it's a lot of mailing.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  It's not all the time, like, it's not right now, every day. You know, there are a lot, there's a lot of distance between the cup and the lip.

• 35:54Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, wait, explain it. This is, I like how that sounds.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  Many a slip twixt the cup and the lip, that's the joke, but like, the issue is-

• 36:02Tim Ferriss?

  I've never heard that, I'm so embarrassed. I feel uncultured.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  You are sitting with two doctors.

• 36:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, that's true.

• 36:08Speaker 03

  Even though you are the most experienced amongst us. The, um, just that notion that if I see, if I see, I get a panel every three months or once a month, because I'm really ahead of the curve. There's a lot that goes on. How did I manage that piece of work? I went through two weeks, my, my kid didn't sleep. You know, I, I think what's interesting now is, we're seeing so many people-

• 36:31Speaker 03

  You know, come up with best practice. I'm like, are you a monk? Do you not like, I started playing around with, um, rest wise. Do you know Matt Weatherly White and those guys at Restwise?

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, what's Restwise? I don't know.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  Well, it was, uh, they came up with a really good algorithm for are you recovering, recovering from your workout or not?

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Is this like heart variability testing?

• 36:48Speaker 03

  No, no HRV. They looked at SO2, so your oxygen saturation in the morning. Cause if you, if you dipped a couple beats and you saw inflammation in your lungs. So you could actually, if you, you know, that question, the burning on question, we figured this out because we were watching it. I have a cold. Do I exercise or not? You know what I'm talking about?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  And 50% of the time you gamble and you're like, bam, I got better.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  You're making a jerking off motion.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  No, let's jerk it.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  That's, that's the dice throw. Okay.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  I don't know how you're.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. That was Jerry's age.

• 37:17Speaker 03

  50% of the time, uh, I exercise and I get sick. Well, it turns out that you just track, you get a little oxygen sensor on eBay or on Amazon for like 10 bucks now. Right? So that technology is brought down. You can, and if you're, if you dip one or two points, you're seeing inflammation in the lungs, which indicates the severity of your cold. That it's not upper respiratory, it's starting to go lower respiratory. And now you shouldn't breathe hard because you're going to blow that out. And we just, for athletes, we're saying, hey, don't exercise if you see this thing. And people were able to train through colds or not train through colds. But they looked at, you know, uh, that heart rate in the morning, resting heart rate, obviously old marker, uh, soreness, a whole bunch of things.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Took like 45 seconds to kind of do the, the gambit. But our daughters used to come charge us in the morning and, you know, and we'd go from zero to I'm awake, holy shit, like what's going on? And my heart rate would spike every morning and I wouldn't lay there quietly taking my heart rate. And we're like, well, this is fucked. And like, so, you know, I think, I think this is the problem. Like we ask, I ask every single professional team and I go everywhere and say, well, I'm like, do you use heart rate variability? Do you use some kind of, of metric of, you know, whether you're following Joel Jameson or someone else looking at heart rate? You know, and they, they're like, yes or no, because it's, it's, it's so sophisticated.

• 38:38Speaker 03

  But we're getting the snapshot of a 22 year old who drank, you know, went out and drinking Monster Red Bulls and, you know, and it doesn't, it's a lot of misplaced precision.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, there's, there's, there's a, there's a couple, a couple of things that, that I want to call out that you brought up. Like, well, one is, is that. The interesting thing is is that I I think that one of our problems in in progress in no matter what field we're talking about is is that we assume that we know what the hell we're talking about. Uh, you know, in that we're gonna perfect, you know.

• 39:11Speaker 03

  To not laugh.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Right, absolutely. So, you know, because you just said, you know, we wanted to look at this and observe. I mean, in in all these big breakthroughs in science and medicine oftentimes are kind of these observations that are unintended. Uh, observations. Cialis and Viagra being a huge one. Penicillin being a huge one, right? So I I think that, you know, when you're talking about digital health technology or self experimentation, the the opportunity there is discovery. And when you have an N of one, you have self discovery. When you have five million N of ones, then you have a collective discovery. And so I actually think that, um, like health tracking and in in personal health devices,

• 39:53Speaker 01

  I think it's actually gonna be part of like the next human rights movement where we actually get to understand and know how damaging some of the aspects of society and work in our work life balance and all that stuff actually really impacts us. Another thing that I thought of.

• 40:11Speaker 03

  Nailed, 100% agree with that.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and another thing, another thing that you actually bring up that that I think is a good counterpoint is that I'm I'm actually working with a with a with a individual Sammy Incanan, who was one of the co founders or founders of Trulia, uh, the real estate website. Um, and he is a really, you know, big triathlete and he and his wife, um, they actually decided that they're going to enter into the open ocean rowing, um, race from Monterey to Hawaii, right? And they don't have open ocean experience and then they're gonna do it on a low carbohydrate diet to bring awareness to kind of like the dangers of fructose and high carbohydrates and and that sort of thing in their expeditions called fat chance. It's really interesting, you know, uh, and so.

• 40:58Speaker 03

  That's a lot to take on.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  It is, no, it's it's amazing, you know, and and actually, um.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  You know, Zabriskie trained this whole last year using Ucan. This modified starch.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, super starch.

• 41:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, and. That was, it's, I mean, these modified starches now, you know, and I mean, not to hijack what you're saying.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:17Speaker 03

  This is so interesting, but like, people are tinkering with millions of dollars on the line.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Right. No, absolutely. I mean, in, in what the one. I'm gonna be the ass for a second. Who's Zabinski?

• 41:27Speaker 03

  Zabinski is the, the track superstar.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  David Zabinski, like, cycling badass.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Okay, cool.

• 41:33Speaker 03

  But we're starting with Mark Sisson, because, you know, what we're finding is now, as you've said.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Oh, he works with Mark?

• 41:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:39Speaker 01

  Oh, cool.

• 41:39Speaker 03

  N of one becomes N of 500, N of 1,000, we start to know patterns. It's about pattern recognition.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  It is.

• 41:46Speaker 03

  And you can't eat like a douchebag, even if you're an endurance athlete, buffering it with exercise, and all of a sudden you stop and whoop, you fall apart. Like, you have to come out unharmed at one rep or a million reps, or a million days.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:59Speaker 03

  Because you're gonna be 110, and if you're in a prediabetic.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:03Speaker 03

  And you're 40s or 50s, because you're a triathlete, eating exactly what they told you to eat.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  Jellies, 100 times.

• 42:08Speaker 03

  We didn't know. We like, oh, okay. How many jellies do I need? You know, Kelly, you know?

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  So, I mean, this is so interesting.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, and, and so to, to, to finish with Sammy, like, one of the things I really appreciate when I first met him, you know, we were talking, and he said, look, you know, I was training for a triathlon, and I started doing, you know, heart rate variability and tr- tracking and, and just really getting very comprehensive about what he was doing. And he was trying to figure out what his edge for overtraining and his training volume was. Um, and he said at the end of like nine months of doing all these different, you know, basal body temperatures, you know, morning heart rate variability. He said that what he found was the most reliable, um, source of information for him was when he woke up, what his instinct was.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  How did I feel today? Um, and he said that that was the most reliable indicator of how much he can push volume and train. And the beautiful thing about that is, is that, you know, some people would say, ah, well, then look at all that bullshit of heart rate variability and so, which I think is a fantastic piece of information. I also think that, you know, mental emotional states, um, really can influence that. Just as much as physiologic states like overtraining and so it's tricky, right? Um, but um, at the same time, like his, his journey uh of looking into this led him to a heightened state of confidence in his inner compass. Uh, and, and like to me, I think that that's ultimately the victory because a lot of times when I'm working with,

• 43:39Speaker 01

  you know, really interesting people and high level executives and people that can kind of spend some of these, some of their resources into kind of looking and analyzing and all this technologically advanced tools and data, which is, is really fun. At the end of the day, what I really want to give back to people is kind of this empowerment that listen to yourself, get involved with yourself, have a high expectation for your life and for your health and for what you can achieve and go after it. You don't need all the technology.

• 44:11Speaker 03

  It's good animal. It's good animal health. Knocking off the big ass heavy boots you're walking around because you can't hear it. Because you're hungover from your ambient sleep, you know, you're, you can't hear it because you drank five nights a week. You can't hear it because you haven't slept. You can't hear it because your, your diet is shitty. You don't move at all. You don't even have a movement practice. I mean, I think that's, you, you, you start to be able to, you really like, if you, if you eat like an ass, Tim, you know it.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 03

  I, I get heartburn and diarrhea. And I'm not saying it's not worth it because sometimes it's worth it.

• 44:44Speaker 03

  But I know what's coming down the pipe.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  I have a dumpling evening coming tomorrow. I'm like, all right, all right. Let me gird my lions and my GI tract. I'm ready.

• 44:54Speaker 03

  Bring me my brown pants.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  This might be, this might be too medical, but what still fascinates me is that is how much, you know, hot wings burn my lips and my asshole.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Just a little 12 hour.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  We had, we were, we were having Chinese food in Georgia and Georgia has, I've been weaning my daughters.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  Your daughter.

• 45:13Speaker 03

  Onto hot food.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  Now this is Spider on the Arrow.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 45:17Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Georgia, old, old.

• 45:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:19Speaker 03

  Both my kids are wearing it in the hot food. Georgia was like Frank's Red Hot was from Gateway Drug.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:25Speaker 03

  And now literally I saw her sneak my like Belizean habanero sauce. She put a little dot on something the other day and I was like, do I mention it? Like I just let it go. I pretended like I didn't see it.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  But uh, we were having Chinese food and I was like, Georgia, take a, take a spoonful of this hot chili paste. And she's like, no, no, no. I was like $20. And she's like, and I was like thirty dollars. And how old is she? How old is this stuff? Eight. Nice. And I was like fifty dollars. That's a fucking, that's like a Scrooge McDuck backstroking through a fucking pool of honey. I know, I know. And literally, I just kept going higher and higher. And then, and then literally, she starts to go for it. I was like, you know, that's gonna be hot twice. And she's like, what do you mean? And I was like, you've never experienced it? I had to explain to her the ring of fire. And she's like, there's not an amount of money, Dad. Sorry. And she walked away. Wow. She sounds like the next Warren Buffett. That's an amazing decision.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  She has the intelligence of Juliet.

• 46:25Speaker 03

  Did you ever see that experiment that, uh, that you could ascertain self-control? Oh, with the cookies? The cookies. Do you remember that? Did we have this conversation? No, we didn't. Well, you know, it's an experiment. No, you should, you should talk about it. Go for it. They basically, they basically said that like, if you could delay personal gratification. Success in life. Success in life. You could delay personal gratification, then that really was a good measure of how you were gonna do in life. Yes. You know, because I work hard towards a goal that is transient or in the future. Yes. And you could measure that in kids. If you literally gave them a cookie and said, if you just wait, I'll give you two cookies. And literally, Georgia was like, how long do I have to wait to get three cookies?

• 47:06Speaker 03

  She was on it. And, and I got bored and I was like, alright, here's three cookies.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  Obviously, like, I know. That's amazing.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah, that's interesting.

• 47:15Speaker 03

  You know, for men, uh, you know, that, that instinct of how you feel in the mornings, people are just out of touch with really like the gut instinct. It really is true about so much. Desire to train. I'm forty now. I just turned forty. And so much, like. It's gonna be a good decade. Congratulations. True fact.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  I turned forty last month.

• 47:32Speaker 03

  Oh, hey, hey, there you go. I'm nipping at your heels. I'm thirty-six. I'm getting there. Jesus sat under the tree for how many days? I. Forty days? Buddha's down the tree for how many days? Forty days? It wasn't the tree, it was the desert. But it turns out forty is this purification, like, it's, it's a serious thing. Use it. I'm, I'm solid. Rome believed that like, you weren't, like, the forties was when life began. Like, you lived now, you're forty. But, uh, you know, one of the, the instincts, some of the best coaches in the world, it's so interesting when you hear. You understand what the masters say. You have that, you know, that Zen koan, you know?

• 48:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:06Speaker 03

  Like when the frying pan is hot, we cook. And, and the coach knows when you're doing well or not well, based on the day. It doesn't matter what metric it is. It's a lifetime of pattern recognition. It's data chunking. It's all the things that we think are important. The coach says you're not moving well, we're gonna back off volume, we're gonna back. And that's why it's so important that people have coaches when they can do it.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Well, here's a question for you. So in your experience, and we can talk about specific to high level athletic training. What makes a good coach? In your mind, what's a good coach? What characterizes a good coach versus mediocre coach? Or a great coach? What makes a great coach?

• 48:41Speaker 03

  It's some intangible, can you understand what you're seeing? You know, I think that's really, because a lot of people are really good at, I know some really, really talented programmers who,

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  who read the, the studies from the eighties and the Russians.

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  But they don't know what they're seeing. And then, and then also there's-

• 49:00Speaker 01

  They're good at prescribing but not observing.

• 49:02Speaker 03

  Or, or, yeah, and, and then there's a huge psychosocial component to this whole thing. And to pull that out makes you an ass. You know, like-

• 49:09Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 49:10Speaker 03

  Well, if you're, you don't know what's going on in your athlete's life. And, and how to motivate, or back off, or meet the needs, like, you know, if you're a good therapist, you know, you immediately match the posture and position of your patients.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:24Speaker 03

  And like, so if someone comes in to talk, I'm up like this, and if someone comes in with, I really will match their affect.

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:31Speaker 03

  And, and, and pad, tone pattern, and, and I speak very slowly, or, you know, I mean, you, and you have to relate. And literally, people would peg me, I'm a big guy, I'm six, two, two thirty. And people would be like, meathead. And then they'd be like, wow, I didn't realize that you could work with that ninety-eight year old, you know, woman. And I was like, well, it turns out, I'm a person, and relating to that person is what's most important, not, you know, one size fits all. It's that coach who can motivate underneath that. How do you, how do you codify that and teach that systematically? It's tricky.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Super tough. It's a science and art.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  A hundred percent.

• 50:04Speaker 01

  Every aspect of life has that science component. It has that art component. I mean, an hour before I came here tonight, I have a, I have a high level executive in San Francisco say, I, I need to stop over for five minutes. He comes and he describes having- Chest pain, you know what I mean? And we're like, you know, in the, in the,

• 50:25Speaker 03

  Intense five minutes.

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. You know what I mean? And it's like, and you know, and he, and he's like, I called my cardiologist and he said, go to the ED. Uh, and I'm like, emergency department.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, that's a pretty good recommendation. Uh, you know what I mean? Like, why, you know, why, why risk it? And that's the thing. But, but, you know, he's like, well, one, you know, I have a giant meeting tomorrow. And like, I, you know, and we talked, and we talked it out and that sort of thing, you know? And, and, and ultimately, you know, I still said, you know, he, he, he, he is in control. I mean, and it's why I like working with executives in the sense that they have a good sense of destiny and they have a lot of sense of personal responsibility. So, so like on one hand, I checked in with him. I'm like, look, you know, a lot of people are in denial of what's going on. Uh, and I don't want you to be in denial, you know? And, uh, and he, he checked in with that.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  But I, but I also did say to him that, you know, one of the things that I, I appreciated in when I worked in the hospital, say, was that I had a sense of like instant recognition of a sick animal. Uh, and so when they come in and they look sick, I'm like, okay, something is really wrong with this individual. And so then you start really kind of like digging in versus he didn't look like a sick animal. You know what I mean? Uh, and so I at least, you know, shared it with that. I didn't want to give him like, you know, false confidence, but there is an art of like knowing that's non-verbal, uh, that's just kind of, you're just with somebody. What you just said was really cool because like, you know, I came across an Edgar Allan

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Poe, um, quote, and he said that if I really want to know, um, what another man is thinking, I fashion my face and my posture as closely as I can to what they're showing me. And I just kind of see what emotions arise and you know people that way.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  Uh, and, and those things are integrated systems. You know, why, why shouldn't they be? You know, I mean, literally, you know, what was that great study that was like slouching causes cortisol arise because it's a defensive like?

• 52:31Speaker 01

  It's posture.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  It's a posture.

• 52:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  But, you know, people have forgotten that the brain exists for one reason, to move you through the environment so you can interact, feed yourself, cognition bootstrapped on top of that.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Not die. Fuck things.

• 52:46Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  I think those are two.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  That's it, but that's, that's the first piece. And then cognition is bootstrapped on top of that.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:51Speaker 03

  Feed yourself, reproduce, run away from danger, right? Not die.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 03

  Have lots of sex.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  Comma, but those things are vertically integrated.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  True.

• 52:59Speaker 03

  You know, and so, but what's happened, you know, Daniel Coyle's book was fantastic.

• 53:03Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, say that again?

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Daniel Coyle's book, uh, Talent Code.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Oh dude, this is, this book has come up over and over again.

• 53:09Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  I still have not read.

• 53:10Speaker 03

  Looking at skill as a biologic.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Talks about like these little Russian factories for tennis players and all that.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  Uh, you gotta read that. You also have to read, uh, and everyone needs to read David Epstein's The Talent Gene.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Hmm, I don't know.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  Uh, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant. Um, sports gene, maybe it's sports gene. Um, you'll find it. It like really looking at this genetic component to chunking, learning.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Huge.

• 53:35Speaker 03

  Uh, huge. Like, like you have a skill.

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  But like you also have an innate ability to learn a skill, right? And what, what makes you you?

• 53:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:42Speaker 03

  My, if you ask my wife, like, what are my two skills? She'll say, I can mimic anyone. Which allows me to understand how you move and why you move. It really has changed my, my, my practice.

• 53:52Speaker 01

  You don't wanna mimic me, man. You'll fuck up your hips.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  Again. And, uh, you know, the key is, you know, like, I, I literally, I became obsessed. I watched Lincoln and I watched, uh, Daniel Day Lewis walk like Lincoln.

• 54:02Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  And I left walking like Lincoln, walking like Daniel Day Lewis walked like Lincoln. And I was like, that fucked him up. Like, Joe was like, you've gotta stop doing that. And I was like, that guy had these problems. And like, I was like, I'm like, he lived in that, that weird posture.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:15Speaker 03

  You know, and then I have pattern recognition and like the, being able to mimic those things really, really matters.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, actually I, I was having a conversation with Dana Carvey one, uh, morning and.

• 54:26Speaker 03

  Dana Carvey, like church lady?

• 54:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, like church lady Dana Carvey, you know, and, and one of the cool things he said to me, a- and I didn't really, he's like, we were talking about his impersonations. He's like.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  He's insane.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. He goes, really? You gotta just, it's pattern recognition. And so he like broke into talking to me about, talking to me from the voice of Barack Obama. And he was just having a conversation with me, just following the intonations and the ebb and flow. You know that I don't, I'm not even gonna try it.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  But it's pattern recognition.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  It was total pattern recognition.

• 54:54Speaker 03

  Caricature drawers, same, they identify the patterns, they see the patterns. And I mean, I think that this is, you can turn that on yourself a little bit. And I mean, literally, like, it's so, people are so easy to read and so transparent.

• 55:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's interesting because like, you know, there's all these kind of mystical statements too, that it's like, if you know yourself, you'll know all people. Uh, and it's like, and it's that polarity, even in medicine, where, you know, we all have a unique set of circumstances. We have a unique set of genes, we have a unique set of environments. Um, but we are overwhelmingly fundamentally human. And as soon as we kind of grasp that and find kind of like the balance point between those two, um, polarities, that's when you really kind of grasp the whole picture. You know what I mean? Because I used to, I used to be such a big, you know, kind of detractor of like genetics. You know what I mean? I'm like, ah, God, it's all about gene expression and that sort of thing.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  And I still think that that's one of the graces of it all is that, you know, you have your genetic disposition. And by the way, there's a lot of intelligence there. And in almost every gene, when people look at it, they're like, oh, that's a deficient gene. I kind of look at it like, no, how's that a survival advantage? And so if you're like APOE genotype is one that quote unquote has the thrifty gene so that you absorb every freaking calorie you can out of fat, you know, that's through your diet.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  Huge survival benefit.

• 56:20Speaker 01

  It's a huge survival, it's a superior gene. It just found its way into modern life where we just have so much availability. Donuts, the problem. You know what I mean? Like.

• 56:30Speaker 03

  The crispy cream friend of the gene.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  So, understand it, you know.

• 56:34Tim Ferriss?

  Well, let me jump in for a second. So, uh, this is, this is a question I'm always fascinated by. I mean, uh, you guys are both very world-class at different but overlapping things. So Kelly talked about his sort of two, two unique gifts among. Hundreds, I'm sure.

• 56:51Speaker 01

  At least three.

• 56:51Tim Ferriss?

  At least three.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  I tricked a woman and Julia into marrying me.

• 56:55Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, three. Smart move, smart move. Definitely raise the average on the offspring. So what do people consider you or what do you consider yourself world class at? Like, what are gifts? Like, what makes you different from other doctors?

• 57:11Speaker 01

  You know, my honest answer to that is that it's I am extraordinary. Extraordinary. You know what I mean? Like, I don't like, I feel like I came into life with a set of circumstances where

• 57:29Speaker 01

  I threw myself to life to kind of help me out. You know what I mean? And I did not have an ego. I had an openness that I wanted to just kind of, I wanted to know, I wanted to survive. You know what I mean? I came from a broken home and kind of a borderline impoverished situation.

• 57:48Tim Ferriss?

  Where did you grow?

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Pittsburgh.

• 57:49Tim Ferriss?

  Are you talking about my life or your life?

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, absolutely. No, no, and you know, and it's one of those things where, yeah, no, I mean, I resonate with what, and we haven't had a long talk about that, but what I know of your life. You know, there's a lot of overlap. And I think that that openness really just gave me that opportunity to have humility and to also have people recognize that in me and they just shared what was most helpful. And there was no kind of agenda where like I had a father that, you know, had this like, you know, agenda for me and expectations and that sort of thing. People just interacted with me and they just kind of shared and they just felt that, you know, I was a comfortable person.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  So really, like, I don't like, I'm not comfortable with the idea of expertise. I mean, I think that life is intelligent. We are all amazingly intelligent and it's not so much that it's, there's nothing that I have and bring to the table other than just a humility and an openness to it.

• 58:55Speaker 03

  You know, tying to something you said about being coaching, I just heard is what makes a good coach, what makes a good coach is you stop trying to, you don't make any value judgment on what a coach is doing, you try to start to solve or think of what's problems the coach is trying to solve. And suddenly everyone becomes an open book. Because I look at your work and I'm like, what problems is Tim trying to solve? What are you trying to solve? And I start asking the why behind the Q, the why behind the methodology, what this coach has seen this set of problems and they prescribe something, this physician has seen this set of problems, is prescribing something. And suddenly, the openness is that like you can learn from everyone, you're listening, you're watching, and you're asking

• 59:40Speaker 03

  that that behind the scene question. You'll never hear me criticize or critique a coach publicly, ever, because that person is trying to solve a set of really problems that are large. I want to know what it is that they're seeing and what they're trying to prescribe. And then we start to develop best practice out of that. And that openness, I mean, I don't know how many conversations, I still am blown away, we just had, you had this offhand throwaway comment, that you're what, your blood is filtered through your eyes every how many hours?

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  I don't know, I mean, I would say that you, well, you filter four to six liters of fluid through your body at rest, and it goes up to 20 to 40 liters per minute.

• 1:00:18Speaker 03

  All your blood goes to your eye?

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:00:20Speaker 03

  And your eye, you have to have UV, and one of the UV is a pathogen killer. And what if, I think you, I mean, you said that, I was like, holy crap, what if we're always wearing sunglasses all the time, and we don't get UV? And one of the reasons you have to get UV is for your vitamin D and these other problems. But, you know, what if it was really filtering, you know, your blood through your eyes? I mean, I just think-

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. But there's treatments that people take blood out of the body and run it through UV filters and put it back into your body.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  You said that, and I was like, I literally was like, I banned sunglasses in my house. I mean, like, because I was like, oh, you know, you started collecting these spider webs of information and trying to coalesce it into best practice. I mean, really is, like, you had an idea where you're like, huh, I can experiment myself, and I can write about that. But I can start to work with these masters. I can start to establish baselines. You know, one of the, the, the kind of, uh, themes of today has been this baseline with testing. Greg Cook is a good friend of mine. Yeah, yeah. And we, we have really worked hard now and we're actually co-writing a book. Oh, that's sure. About establishing movement minimums. Cool. Baseline minimums. I like that. Because, and I love his example, you know, he's become a really dear friend, but.

• 1:01:33Speaker 03

  Where is he now these days anyway? Oh, he's just burning the world down in Tennessee. Tennessee. Trying to, trying to do more stand-up paddle boarding, you know? You know, like, he's a genius, but one of the things that he's saying is, hey, look. Also made a cameo. Yeah, uh, that's right, that's right. For our body. You know, if you can't, you know. As did, as did Justin. True fact. Yeah. You know, this, this notion, you know, people thought he and I were really diametrically opposed. And, and, and when he and I started talking, we were like, oh my God, we have these big problems we have to solve. If we don't collaborate and share sources, we're fools. Yeah. And, you know, he's like, look, in, do you remember in, in middle school, you bent over and your gym teacher screened you? Oh, where's we going? For scoliosis.

• 1:02:18Speaker 03

  Oh, alright, alright. I was like, I'm not sure where you went to middle school, but. I was on the wrestling team and that didn't happen. Wrestling team, right? So, I mean, your, your PE teacher was not very sophisticated, but screened you for scoliosis. Right? And, and the issue is why can't, why have we been so divorced from, you know, how about this? If you, man, you're listening, if you wake up and you don't have a boner. Right, there's a problem. There's a problem. Yes or no? One or zero? Boner, no boner? You know? Right. And, uh, well, the Jungians would say, how was your dreams? Tell me what your dreams, that's like how they greet each other. So, what did you dream last last night? How did you, like, what did you process? Let's talk about it. And literally, we should be saying to each other, did you have a boner last night?

• 1:02:59Speaker 03

  Did you wake up this morning? I mean, like, that's so bright line, know thyself. But if you ask that question, so, I mean, like, that's, that's one of those data points that's so easy to know. Do I have a boner? Yes or no? Yeah, yes. I can then backtrack and say, I was stressed, I didn't have sleep, cortisol, food. Choose any one of the simple roadblocks, then I can see immediately my function. I bet if you correlate a boner to, you're like, how do you feel today? You know? Pretty close correlation, yeah, one to one, yeah. One to one. Yeah, I mean, not only does that, does that simple, yeah, actually, does not only that. I would encourage you. Actually, my sponsorship dollars go up.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  For you, say boner.

• 1:03:39Speaker 03

  So, please, continue.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  I have no sponsor. Does it not indicate, it indicates deep sleep with good kind of growth hormone, FSH.

• 1:03:48Speaker 03

  LSH.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  LH, H, H, B, T, A. Absolutely, with testosterone responsiveness, no doubt. Another interesting thing that comes to mind is that, you know, when you look at kind of the class of drugs like Viagra, Levitra, Cialis, that help with erectile dysfunction for people, if you look at the medical literature, it says it's most effective in psychogenic causes of erectile dysfunction. And then when you look at kind of, what the hell does that drug do? It preserves phosphodiesterase inhibitors. And when you look at kind of other animal models where they say like, you know, the waterboarding equivalent for rats is to kind of let them swim around in a fucking.

• 1:04:26Speaker 03

  Fucking do exhaustion.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Totally, in a bucket, into exhaustion, right?

• 1:04:29Speaker 03

  No rat boner, no rat boner there.

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  We call that rat flaccid.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  I feel like, bro.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  How you feeling, rat flaccid? Swimming in a bucket. But, you know, that really decreases their brain's phosphodiesterase. And so it's kind of really like, you know, you had mentioned this, I think, before we started recording where, you know, you're really into kind of parasympathetic, sympathetic nervous system tone. And it really gets back to that. I mean, I'm really telling, you know, to me, I'm more convinced that, you know, the mind directly influences the physiology or indirectly influences the behavior patterns. But it's, it's really all about kind of understanding, you know, how your nervous system kind of interacts with your physiology. And you gotta.

• 1:05:27Speaker 03

  I started getting, you said parasympathetic sympathetic tone. Let's just like break that down for people. When you are at rest and you're in a good homeostasis, non-threatening environment, you breathe in, for example, your heart rate accelerates, when you breathe out, it decelerates.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:05:43Speaker 03

  That isn't a good indicator.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  When you breathe in, it decelerates. When you exhale, it accelerates a little bit. Is that what you said?

• 1:05:50Speaker 03

  No, I think I said the opposite, doesn't it? Doesn't it accelerate as you breathe in?

• 1:05:53Speaker 01

  No, no, it actually slows down.

• 1:05:54Speaker 03

  Oh, that's right, okay, it slows down, correct. So, yeah, that's a hundred percent right, because if you're trying to cheat the test at the, at the grocery store, you hold your breath or slow, okay, right.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Speaker 03

  So. The problem is that people get into this state where there's no variability in their heart rate. Right. That's the heart rate variability in heart rate variability. That people start to fire up their adrenals, they, they in this fight or fight response, they're not sleeping, they've just played a big game, they just had a meeting. They're cinched down. We see people cannot go to sleep. Like, uh, one magazine was like the Red Bull magazine. The, one of the best players for the All Blacks was bragging about after big games, he can't fall asleep. Yes, he has to stay up playing video games all night. And I was like, red flag. Tired and wired, right? Oh, is that it is? Yes. If you have a child. Where you're not releasing a rehearsal in the morning. That's right. If you have a child, you know this, that sleep begets sleep.

• 1:06:45Speaker 03

  That a tired kid will not go to sleep and will not sleep well. And so if your kid has a crappy night's sleep, you're in for another crappy night's sleep. And it really is like, sleep begets sleep. Do you mind, Nix? Sure. Nah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 03

  It's big of you. And, uh, um, I think what's, what's so interesting for me is we started looking at this because I started becoming interested in it because so many of my professional athletes and my soldiers were coming back, were vampires, you know, literally not sleeping at night, especially, you know, I was working with, just say the, the military is elite, elite doing the scariest jobs. One of my friends deployed to Afghanistan recently and his testosterone was 270. Yeah. You know, and this is a guy who played division one football and was at like in the Rose Bowl. No androgens. Zero. Yeah. By the way, if it's less than 300 in your 60, it's, it's treatment level, uh, testosterone. Right. We want something like, was it 900 is the upper end?

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  Absolutely. No, I mean, I, I think 800 to a thousand. I'd be pretty happy with 900. Yeah, absolutely. No, it's not what I've seen. But then again, you know, fucking two bottles of wine. So. Twice a week. That's what's worth it. So I'll take it. Huh? Boner, yes or no? It's like the Krispy Kreme. Yeah. So the, the issue though is that, you know, so I, I started looking at, well, what are the, how do I impact that? What are, what are the ways without having to measure it, knowing that I'm compromised because I'm under stress? Cause I have a newborn, because I don't sleep, because whatever, how can I, because that's why I think what you did is you removed, for me, this is really where I, I respected you in a way that. Like, I really had no respect for you up until the point. What I, what I think was so great is you removed the, even the need from.

• 1:08:29Speaker 03

  You like it was subjective so much like you you said, hey, go get a but this, but you also said, you know, this is black and white. Do you feel better? What's going on? And you you just sort of removed like, why don't you even do? You know, you're compromised. You know, your diet is shitty. You know, you're not exercising. Take away the roadblocks because we know you're already compromised. And and this has been a real shift for my own brain. You know, I I started last year, I was in a Blue Angel jet in a shitty position. I sat, I mean, I sat in a helicopter. I jumped out of an airplane strapped to someone at, you know, 25,000 feet. I mean, I just did like I did all these things where I was compromised or body armor for 10 hours. Like, I was like, there's no way not to be compromised. So if

• 1:09:13Speaker 03

  I know I'm compromised, what then? And I think what was so great about you sort of in is so great about your thinking is like, you basically start the assumption that you're compromised. Why don't you do these steps and start to uncompromise yourself because you know, you're compromised? And at the very least, it may do nothing. At the very most, it may change your life.

• 1:09:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  You know, which is sort of this best practice.

• 1:09:33Tim Ferriss?

  Simple self diagnosis.

• 1:09:35Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 1:09:35Tim Ferriss?

  And it could be just a few moves. I mean, that's what I I appreciate about, you know, your teaching, whether at SF CrossFit or through the the wonder of the internets is it doesn't have to be complicated.

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:09:49Tim Ferriss?

  It can be as complicated as you want to make it. But it doesn't have to be complicated. So actually, I'd be interested to to ask you, like, if if people are going to do a self evaluation. This is really nice. Very happy with. So for those who are curious about the the various clinking and so on going on, we have the mascot 2008 from Napa Valley. This is from Will Harlan, H A R L. Try that again. H A R L A N. This is one of those edit sober. No, what is it? Right drunk edit sober does not apply to podcasts, by the way. The mascot 2008, really, really nice. And we're having a 2010 Malbec Route 40

• 1:10:31Tim Ferriss?

  from Mendoza. I'm a sucker for that because I've lived in Argentina for so long. But in terms of movement evaluation.

• 1:10:43Tim Ferriss?

  Minimal movement. What, uh, what should people look at? I mean, the, the, the, the basics, like the top three or four. Some office dweller who spends, God knows how long, you know, seven to 12 hours a day.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  This is really 100% the, the, the healthcare crisis of the future. More and more research is saying that when you sit, have a sedentary lifestyle, sit more than eight hours a day. That's a sedentary lifestyle. That's the equivalent of like killing yourself slowly. It's smoking and jogging. It's, the physiology is known to us.

• 1:11:15Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:11:16Speaker 03

  That when you sit down, your leg musculature turns off.

• 1:11:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  Your fat, your blood glucose rises. You can see a spike. Just because, right? If people at home, have you ever sat on an airplane and had cankles? Have you ever had that? You got off an airplane and your ankles are swollen?

• 1:11:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:29Speaker 03

  Well, that's not the altitude. That's because you stopped contracting any musculature in your legs when you sat. And it's the musculature contraction that drives all the lymphatic drainage of your whole system. The whole system is wired for movement. Remember that brain analogy?

• 1:11:46Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:11:46Speaker 03

  And if you stop moving, the one that ends up happening is you get stasis and congestion, which is a big problem. And for me, for the athletes, I'm like, oh, now your ankles are congested and now your Achilles is junky and now your feet don't.

• 1:11:57Tim Ferriss?

  What do you think of compression pants for flying?

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  No brainer.

• 1:12:01Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:12:01Speaker 03

  Wear compression socks, wear a pair of compression pants. The compression pants get hot.

• 1:12:06Tim Ferriss?

  They really get hot.

• 1:12:07Speaker 03

  It's a problem. So very least wear suppression socks.

• 1:12:09Tim Ferriss?

  I have a buddy who wears, you know, former kind of professional level rugby guy. He's just like, fuck it. He wears like shorty shorts with fucking compression pants underneath when he flies. I love it.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  How much does he weigh?

• 1:12:19Tim Ferriss?

  He's a big dude.

• 1:12:20Speaker 03

  That's what I'm saying. You can do whatever the fuck you want.

• 1:12:21Tim Ferriss?

  He's like, I don't care. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:12:23Speaker 03

  Say something, I tell you.

• 1:12:24Tim Ferriss?

  He's the Hulk, yeah.

• 1:12:26Speaker 03

  But, you know, I, I think that there is a best practice that you know you're going to be compromised. You know, I look at sitting as this, you know, you know, it's interesting. I, I've worked with, uh, Esther Gocle, you know, we've talked. She, uh, she's the Gocle method. She talks about sitting.

• 1:12:41Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, wait a second. Of course, eight steps to painless back or whatever.

• 1:12:45Speaker 03

  That's right. And she really is saying, look, we've lost this. I mean, look at the Victorians. They sat upright. You know, the Macintosh chair is a 90 degree angle. And then the twenties, we started slouching, became fashionable. Furniture design reflected that. We've sort of lost this very uprightness, this integrated piece.

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  We're doing a lot more sitting and God forbid you're bending over, you know, I just saw a study that adults are spending two and a half hours a day on their smartphones. In a forward flex, rounded upper back position, shoulders internally rotated, adopting that position for two and a half hours a day. And then when your shoulders are pinched and you have neck pain, I'm like, go fuck yourself.

• 1:13:21Tim Ferriss?

  Well, exactly. That's why I need to go get a massage a week, just working on like my pec minor and fucking internal rotation.

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  In that, in that.

• 1:13:29Tim Ferriss?

  Because my inverse venatus wants to punch me in the face.

• 1:13:30Speaker 01

  That's right. And that is the universal posture of somebody who's just lost. You cannot, I mean, look at, look at Wimbledon, look at every winner. The winner cannot help but declare himself upwards and backwards.

• 1:13:44Tim Ferriss?

  Of course.

• 1:13:45Speaker 01

  And the loser cannot help but declare himself forward and down in an evolution. And, and, and for people to not understand that the body and the brain is one integrated unit and the way that you treat your mobility and your body and your posture is directly influencing your physiology.

• 1:14:02Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  It's insane not to understand.

• 1:14:04Tim Ferriss?

  It's just to, just to like lay down one point, is this like Cartesian duality of mind and body is total horseshit. It's just like, look, your brain is in Oregon. If you want to improve, people ask me all the time, like, what smart drug should I take? How can I improve my cognitive performance? I'm like, fix your fucking diet.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  And I'm like, it's one and the same.

• 1:14:22Tim Ferriss?

  Look at your body. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  What are you doing?

• 1:14:24Tim Ferriss?

  It's the same system. So it's like, if you want to improve your thinking, you can improve your mental performance, improve your physical performance. It is one and the same.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  And it's pretty cheap and it's free. Sleeping, we've just started playing with this, uh, all the new mattresses. So A, I think that modern man needs to sleep on a soft mattress and this is gonna piss people.

• 1:14:44Tim Ferriss?

  So tell me, tell me, so I am, I'm sleeping on a shitty mattress on the floor right now because I just moved into my place.

• 1:14:52Tim Ferriss?

  Let me retract all my statements. It's not as long as a shitty mattress. I need to. I'm sleeping in the, I have also.

• 1:15:00Tim Ferriss?

  Been taking a very hot bath in sort of a Japanese style of fudel every night and magnesium. So I've been sleeping like a prince, but uh I have to buy a new mattress. So tell me, what should, what should I do?

• 1:15:12Speaker 03

  Let's back and talk about sleep hygiene. One, is the room pitch dark? You can, they've done studies where they, they, you can shine a laser on the back of someone's knee. And they, they pick, people pick it up, it's light, like you cannot have your phone in your room. You cannot have a TV in your room. It needs to be black, black as night. In fact, a good study just came out that showed that any light in your room can be the cause of so many problems around sleep, sleep apnea, some of this nighttime arousal problems.

• 1:15:43Tim Ferriss?

  Nighttime arousal?

• 1:15:44Speaker 03

  I mean, like you make a case, it's too bright in the room.

• 1:15:47Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  You need, it need to be dark. It needs to be quiet. So what, how, you know how cheap a night mask is? Like you're sleeping in a strange hotels as an executive.

• 1:15:56Tim Ferriss?

  You know, I hate it. I can't find a good sleep mask. If you have a recommendation, tell me, but I have like shitty fucking airplane.

• 1:16:02Speaker 03

  There's, there's one that has a small one that's a cup that doesn't get any, I would try it all.

• 1:16:07Tim Ferriss?

  You mean like suntan bed type of thing?

• 1:16:10Speaker 03

  Not so tight, but some, there are a couple that are just a little bit smaller in a cup. Not a very obtrusive, don't really have it on. Earplugs, it needs to be silent in there.

• 1:16:19Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, I have like three M.

• 1:16:21Speaker 03

  And enjoy this, there's a lot of, a lot of good research related to this, saying that you should eat your carbohydrates at night because that helps boost serotonin, you know, so if you're gonna eat, you eat at night.

• 1:16:31Tim Ferriss?

  That's what I've been doing, honestly, because I've, I've been having these kind of businessy, whatever the fuck. And it's like, you'll have something like Indian, you're like, alright, honestly, like I'm not gonna be winning any bodybuilding competitions. So it's like, I'm gonna have some brown rice for this.

• 1:16:43Speaker 03

  Give me some non, don't even go, just say non, you know you have non.

• 1:16:48Tim Ferriss?

  So, but at night, as long as I'm basically intermittently fasting.

• 1:16:52Speaker 03

  Alanon.

• 1:16:53Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, up until.

• 1:16:54Speaker 03

  Lunch is fun.

• 1:16:56Tim Ferriss?

  Like.

• 1:16:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:16:57Tim Ferriss?

  Body fat cop.

• 1:16:58Speaker 03

  When can you control? So we say, you know, you need a big breakfast. Well, turns out you don't need a big breakfast. Maybe I like your model of protein, three grams of protein in thirty minutes. Like that changed your family's dynamic a lot. Need some protein in there because you've been fasting, maybe some fat or just fat, whatever you're doing. Bulletproof coffee. If you want to put butter in your coffee, it's up to you. Get diarrhea from the coconut oil.

• 1:17:20Tim Ferriss?

  If I got MCTs, tell me about MCTs and uragia. It's a fucking, you don't want to do that right before you go to the airport. Am I right?

• 1:17:28Speaker 03

  So what we're basically saying is if you add a bunch of coconut MCTs to your coffee in the morning, you're like a goose.

• 1:17:35Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, you're gonna shit a lot again.

• 1:17:36Speaker 03

  Disaster pants. So, but the sleep piece then is, you know, maybe some carbohydrate for dinner. Cause you should probably, you know, Mark Syston's like, hey, just keep it around a hundred grams. You know, and good luck eating a hundred grams of green.

• 1:17:50Tim Ferriss?

  I give him credit, like I, I've met up with him, like that guy is, he walks the talk.

• 1:17:55Speaker 03

  But he also doesn't, isn't freaked out, like he likes coffee and his little sugar in his coffee. But because the rest of his life is organized around some exercise and sleeping enough, it doesn't throw the whole thing out of bounds. You can buffer it. You know, we're, we're humans of adaptation, like, and we confuse that adaptation ability for survivability, right, for thriveability. And I, I, I think because humans are always, I, I believe, always working towards like thriving. Others would have died off a long time ago. I mean, if you just care and feed the plant a little bit, you know, give the animal a little bit extra sunlight, a little better food, it, it blossoms again. I mean, that's really what we're doing. If you, if you, if you upregulate and one of the cheapest, you're spending so much of your time asleep.

• 1:18:40Speaker 03

  It should be dark, it should be a little bit cold. What I would say is.

• 1:18:44Tim Ferriss?

  What do you consider cold?

• 1:18:46Speaker 03

  You set your temperature at 60s.

• 1:18:48Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, I'm at 64, I'm happy.

• 1:18:50Speaker 03

  Perfect, perfect, that's fine, this is not hot. But what I would say is, going to bed hot fucks up your serotonin production.

• 1:18:58Tim Ferriss?

  Unless you go into a Japanese bath, or you take a hot bath so that you cool off quickly, so that your blood is raised to the surface of your skin, and then you have a rapid cooling period, and then you sleep really well.

• 1:19:11Speaker 03

  So, what's the rapid cooling, what are you doing?

• 1:19:13Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, I am getting out of a hot bath, touting off, and then I'll continue to sweat, and I will take a hot shower, and after that, you're fucking cold as shit, because you've gone from extremely hot to extremely cold.

• 1:19:27Speaker 03

  Okay, so this is the point, is that that cooling has to happen.

• 1:19:31Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:32Speaker 03

  How do you sleep in a hot environment?

• 1:19:34Tim Ferriss?

  Horribly.

• 1:19:34Speaker 03

  You sleep horribly, that's the point. So, the hot bath relaxes you, it's one of the ways we figured out how to hack that nervous system, I can tap into that parasympathetic response. People can go from 0 to 60, and they pride themselves on it. Bam, I wake up, I have coffee, bam, cup of fear, right? The cup of fear, good to go, hit the go, like, I can upward, but they cannot come down.

• 1:19:59Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:00Speaker 03

  And we don't teach that. So, you know, this is where I've said, hey, look, develop a soft tissue practice before you go to bed at night. Turns out, like what? 10 or 15 minutes of rolling around on a ball, or rolling around on a foam roller, kicks on a huge parasympathetic response. That's why I'm saying, hey, stop rolling before you exercise, stop it. Roll after you exercise to bring you down out of that sympathetic state. If you have something that's gristly, you're not rolling, you're trying to break up gristle so you can move correctly, right, but tapping into that, work on your diaphragm, diaphragmatic breathing, weird how it matters so much for stress regulation.

• 1:20:36Tim Ferriss?

  What would be, uh, how would someone exercise that or practice that?

• 1:20:41Speaker 03

  Get a ball. Before you go to bed, put it on your body, roll around on the floor for 10 minutes and see what happens. Have you ever had a massage? Yes. How do you feel after the massage? Like you want to fight someone? No. Your voice is so low. So this is, this is really the piece is how do I, you know, affect my physiology through practice? Right, right. And, um, you know, working on, so one of the problems with sitting is that it compresses your diaphragm in that crappy position. Yep. And now you have bad diaphragm function, which is one of the biggest assets to your parasympathetic response turning off. Right? Do you know the, the incidence of bladder dysfunction relative to pelvic floor dysfunction in America?

• 1:21:24Speaker 03

  It's a big problem. It's because we sit so much. So if we look at the pelvic floor, the diaphragm, both diaphragms in the same chamber, which are compromised from sitting. Yeah. Right now, we have bladder continence, which is a billion dollar industry with diapers for adults, for women. I love diapers. Okay. Oh, yeah. Sumo, I'm looking around. I see. But this is, this is a lifestyle hack, you know, and I think that's what's, what's cheap, it's low, it's low budget. Sleep better, you know, why aren't you hacking your sleep quality? Yeah. You know, without drugs. Sleep's huge. I mean. By the way, back with Sleep Train, sell me on that pillow top. Oh, well, so. Oh yeah, mattress and pillow. Jesus Christ. Give me the stuff.

• 1:22:07Speaker 03

  You did all this, uh, David. Yeah, we're out of time. You did all this misdirection. Alright, so. What I think is that most of the athletes I'm seeing, most of the people I'm seeing are extension sensitive. We sit and we're trying to exercise and that puts us in, it means your pelvis, if it was like a funnel, you're tipping your funnel forward all the time and that's putting a lot of stress on the joints. Imagine if I took your elbow and, and grabbed it and extended it, hyperextended it a whole bunch. It would get irritated after. Well, what's happening to your back? Yeah. So what happens is for a lot of time, we were seeing men particularly who had a lot of disc pathology. Right? They were lifting and exercising or working in these rounded back and they were having disc problems.

• 1:22:49Speaker 03

  And we, we found that if we slept them in extension, we put them on a hard bed and they slept. But sleeping in a hard bed by decessively drops you into extension. People did better with flexion related injuries around their discs. But I think what's happened is we've seen a shift in people now because they're sitting so much, their psoas is tight, iliacus is tight, QL is tight, the fascia is tight.

• 1:23:10Tim Ferriss?

  Quadratus lumborum.

• 1:23:12Speaker 03

  Boom. And what's happening then, which are also extension sensitive in the exercise we're doing, and what's happening then is we're extension sensitive and what we need to do is sleep in a, almost like a hammock. And if I can, you should wake up in the morning feeling awesome. You shouldn't have to get into the shower and be crippled.

• 1:23:30Tim Ferriss?

  To loosen up your lower back.

• 1:23:31Speaker 03

  To loosen up the lower back. And I think people listening will be like, holy crap, that's me. And you, I, I, I tell my athletes, I want you to sleep on the softest surface you can get your hands on. And that, and that doesn't mean memory foam, because the memory foam locks you into extension. It means you need to be, spend some time. Here's a quick test that I've developed. Ready? It's very scientific.

• 1:23:49Tim Ferriss?

  I'm ready.

• 1:23:50Speaker 03

  Lay on a bed, at a, at a, at a sleep train, wherever you're going. If you have to, on your back, if you cross your feet, your bed's too hard.

• 1:23:58Tim Ferriss?

  Dude, I do that every night.

• 1:23:59Speaker 03

  Of course, because what you're doing is you're getting out of extension. Or you do the dreaded figure four, you tuck one foot underneath the other foot, like the Heil Hitler of your legs. You know what I'm talking about?

• 1:24:08Tim Ferriss?

  I'll usually do like the, uh, sole of the foot, foot to the inside of the opposite knee.

• 1:24:13Speaker 03

  Very, very tree pose of you.

• 1:24:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, very tree pose.

• 1:24:15Speaker 03

  You're very, very advanced and sensitive.

• 1:24:16Tim Ferriss?

  That's interesting. Yeah, I need a softer bed then.

• 1:24:18Speaker 03

  And what that would mean, because some people are like, no, put a pillow underneath your knee. I'm like, so you need a prop to put you into flexion in your bed? Can you see how fucked that is? Why don't you get a softer bed? But what, check this out. So wait.

• 1:24:31Tim Ferriss?

  Softer bed.

• 1:24:32Speaker 03

  Softer bed.

• 1:24:33Tim Ferriss?

  What should people look for? Like, how do you find a softer bed?

• 1:24:35Speaker 03

  Doesn't matter. Whatever.

• 1:24:36Tim Ferriss?

  Brands, makes, anything.

• 1:24:37Speaker 03

  Lay on your bed, lay on the bed for as long as it takes. If you have to cross your legs, it's too, you may be, you should have to sleep on the floor and not get up and be crippled. This is the issue. But we're not those people anymore. We're not.

• 1:24:49Tim Ferriss?

  So before bed?

• 1:24:52Tim Ferriss?

  Foam roller, lacrosse ball.

• 1:24:54Speaker 03

  Ten minutes.

• 1:24:54Tim Ferriss?

  Hip flexor.

• 1:24:56Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:24:56Tim Ferriss?

  What are, what are like the top three?

• 1:24:57Speaker 03

  I'm not even talking about trying to address your movement dysfunction or the, the mechanical problem. I'm talking about trying to kick on your parasympathetic nervous system by doing soft tissue work.

• 1:25:07Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 1:25:08Speaker 03

  Like a little massage before you went to bed. You know what I'm saying?

• 1:25:11Tim Ferriss?

  So what would you hit?

• 1:25:12Speaker 03

  So check this out. We've talked.

• 1:25:13Tim Ferriss?

  What's the like the?

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  Doesn't matter. Put the ball wherever it hurts.

• 1:25:16Tim Ferriss?

  Okay.

• 1:25:17Speaker 03

  You know? I mean, really, it's, it's that.

• 1:25:18Tim Ferriss?

  What are the most likely places to hurt? Pure formous glutes.

• 1:25:22Speaker 03

  No, I think it's more. You can tell if a tissue is. Well, you should see we do some of the soft balls into the temporalis and the masseter and people freak out. I'm like, oh, weird how that hurts. You've never worked on that tissue ever your whole life.

• 1:25:36Tim Ferriss?

  That's where I wear a mouth guard.

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:25:39Tim Ferriss?

  So I used to grind my fucking face to.

• 1:25:40Speaker 03

  Weird. So this posture of sitting forward. Round your back, right? Everyone who's been on a computer knows that position. My neck is killing me. What happens is your short neck flex just pull your jaw up position pulls it back. And it's one of the mechanisms for all the tightness we're seeing in the jaw and clenching your teeth. Guess what? Causes a cortisol response and cue being stressed out or not. I mean, like it literally is connected one to one that way.

• 1:26:07Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:07Speaker 03

  So, you know, you're like, oh, wear a mouth guard. That'll prevent you from grinding your own teeth down, but you're still fucking clenching your teeth at night. Why do you need a mouth guard? Start asking the question, why? Well, it turns out I'm stressed and I sit in this shitty position and I don't do anything to manage that.

• 1:26:23Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:26:25Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  So what we've just got it. We just got a new bed because we took our other bed up to the mountains. But all the new beds, you can get a multiple frame. It looks like a Kraftmatic adjustable bed. And I hate to say it, but there was a company.

• 1:26:39Tim Ferriss?

  You sure you're ready for 40?

• 1:26:42Speaker 03

  Well, finish it.

• 1:26:44Tim Ferriss?

  I'm ready.

• 1:26:44Speaker 03

  I don't have a bummer and I sleep in a Kraftbag adjustable bed.

• 1:26:50Speaker 03

  Pass me the wine.

• 1:26:53Speaker 03

  I'll just blackout, but you can raise up the feet a little bit and put yourself in the soft mattress and in a little bit slightly better position. And sleep and what happened, you'll, you, one of the things that people wakes people up is their little back and they turn on their side.

• 1:27:06Tim Ferriss?

  What is the first hour of your day look like? Do you have a ritual? Do you have a routine?

• 1:27:11Speaker 03

  I sleep till seven o'clock every morning. I have two daughters.

• 1:27:14Tim Ferriss?

  Yep.

• 1:27:14Speaker 03

  We have put it on them to wake us up.

• 1:27:16Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:17Speaker 03

  So we put it on them and, uh, and then let's get my kids out for school.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:27:22Tim Ferriss?

  That's it.

• 1:27:22Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:27:23Tim Ferriss?

  Hold on, there's more to that.

• 1:27:24Speaker 01

  We hot tub.

• 1:27:25Tim Ferriss?

  In the morning.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  All the girls.

• 1:27:27Tim Ferriss?

  What time?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Six, four, five, seven.

• 1:27:29Tim Ferriss?

  Okay, so as soon as you wake up, boom, hot tub.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  And if you have access to hot, and everyone knows, hot shower, you know, what's the old mantra, like shit shower and shave? You know, like, you're not, if you need to reset your whole system, shave your face, have a good one.

• 1:27:46Tim Ferriss?

  Wait, wait, wait. Better than shit shower and shave.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Shit shower and shave. Like, you can change your whole life in a shit shower and shave.

• 1:27:54Tim Ferriss?

  What about you, man? Justin, what is your morning routine? Do you have one?

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Also, I just got back on Vitamix. We grind greens into a tasty tape. You cannot eat enough vegetables a human being.

• 1:28:05Tim Ferriss?

  Vitamix is amazing.

• 1:28:06Speaker 01

  And, and really like.

• 1:28:07Tim Ferriss?

  Have you tried, so the two things I've tried, I want to know what your cocktail is. Athletic Greens, I like a lot. I mix that with glutamine usually in the mornings, so I'm lazy and I'm like, let me call it, instead of laziness, I'll call it intermittent fasting.

• 1:28:23Tim Ferriss?

  But also mixing matcha with.

• 1:28:27Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:28:28Tim Ferriss?

  Ice and water, just cold matcha. You like four barrel, I believe. Last time we had, last time you tortured my hips and we were at your house, we had four barrel, which was very nice. What are, what's, what's your routine? Do you have more in your routine, Justin?

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  Um, not, not so rigid as much as like, you know, I also have a soon to be seven year old, five year old and two year old. And so it really just.

• 1:28:57Tim Ferriss?

  Full house.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  It is. I mean, and it's, it's mostly waking to, you know, one or three of the children.

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  Typically, you know, I actually typically start with about 20 minutes of like, play with them. And then, you know, then I, you know, basically will just get ready and roll into the office. So I don't have like a morning like movement ritual that's formalized, but it's just more. I don't think, I don't think you should lift heavy weights in the morning. It's hard. It just takes way too long to be prepped for that.

• 1:29:29Tim Ferriss?

  Way too lazy. I feel like my pain threshold is so much higher, based on all the amazing appropriated research from Russians. Like, I feel like my pain threshold is so much later in the.

• 1:29:42Tim Ferriss?

  Late.

• 1:29:42Speaker 03

  Between two and four o'clock.

• 1:29:43Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, well, it's the way I've looked at it is sort of, uh, God, I have to look back. I wrote about this, which is why I I absolve myself from remembering it. But um, something like uh,

• 1:29:57Tim Ferriss?

  eight to 10 hours after waking. So for me, because I wake late, I tend to find sort of like six to 10 P M is when I can lift the most.

• 1:30:10Speaker 03

  That makes sense.

• 1:30:10Tim Ferriss?

  Which isn't much. I'm like benching like eighty five pounds. Pretty sweet.

• 1:30:15Speaker 03

  How much you bench, bro? Never, it always goes back to that.

• 1:30:17Tim Ferriss?

  So so what's, all right, so so so Kelly, functional movement wise, if there were one movement where you're like, you know what? I want to see if you can function as a human being.

• 1:30:27Speaker 03

  Put your feet together.

• 1:30:28Tim Ferriss?

  Yes.

• 1:30:29Speaker 03

  Squat to the ground. That's it.

• 1:30:30Tim Ferriss?

  Feet together, squat.

• 1:30:31Speaker 03

  You know why?

• 1:30:32Tim Ferriss?

  Because.

• 1:30:33Speaker 03

  Now, anything overhead, hands in front. Let's just talk about that. You you you can live, live functionally, hands by your face, right? You might not be able to swim, might not be able to just swim. We're talking about just one movement. Squat. Put a fist between your feet, squat to the ground, feet straight. Right? It's a crucial point. We're looking at ankle flexibility. We're looking at hip flexibility. We're the excursions.

• 1:30:57Tim Ferriss?

  So it's like, pretend like you're a smoker and be a knob. Go.

• 1:30:59Speaker 03

  Exactly. How how does smoke? And literally, can you, for me, it's the most primal piece because it it speaks to how far away from you are from baseline. Can I take a poo in the woods?

• 1:31:11Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:12Speaker 03

  Can I have dinner in Thailand? Can I, can can I?

• 1:31:15Tim Ferriss?

  Can you rest on your own frame?

• 1:31:17Speaker 03

  Right. Oh, and how about how can I relate to people around a campfire? I mean, it's so primal and it just says a lot about our function. But if you if people are honest, they may go weeks and months without actually squatting all the way down.

• 1:31:29Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:31:30Speaker 03

  They just don't, they don't use it. So your body's like, don't need it. It's out of here. You know, it's amazing. That that single metric alone would change.

• 1:31:37Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:31:37Speaker 03

  You know, you should be able to sit all the way down, butt to ankle and keep your back flat.

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:43Speaker 03

  Somebody should be able to hand you a huge load, your back's flat, stand up.

• 1:31:45Speaker 01

  Let me do it. I mean, and not to push you this way, but like one thing that I find is a fascinating topic that I would love to hear kind of some of your thoughts on is really kind of this relationship to pain. And because I guarantee you, myself included, that if I tried to do that, you know, fist width, you know, squat down to my, to the back of my ankles.

• 1:32:10Speaker 03

  Ass to heels, yeah.

• 1:32:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, ass to heels, I'm going to experience a lot of, you know, pain and discomfort.

• 1:32:16Speaker 03

  Well, the pain piece is interesting. You know, resting state of the human being is pain free. Shouldn't have pain. Good article in New York Times just came out like a week ago, basically said that adults over 55 stop reporting pain to their physicians because it's like, oh yeah, I'm always in pain. And pain is one of those biomechanical markers that we know for pathology. Unleashing pain at night is one of the things that I'm like screaming pathology, like cancer or something insidious, right? Really gnarly. But for, if you're moving poorly, your body's telling you something's wrong with your mechanics if you're in pain and you should be pain free. If you push on a tissue, if you lay on a ball, grab a kid's ball, grab a baseball, put it somewhere, it should not hurt to compression.

• 1:33:01Speaker 03

  Anywhere in your body, you should be able to put that ball and put a lot of compression on it. If your tissues are stiff, that's not normal. It feels like beef jerky. It should be like layers of warm silk sliding over steel springs. That's our analogy. That's how your body should work, but it's not. Like right now, we're sitting on our butts and compressing all these beautiful tissues, right? Just not, not normal. But if you push on something and it hurts, the tissue is stiff and telling you it's stiff because you've created a micro stretch underneath that, that compression. So, one of the ways that we know that you're not normal is that it hurts the compression. So, you should be pain free. And, and you can, if you move. And something hurts, then that gives you information. It's testing one or zero.

• 1:33:43Speaker 03

  But you're getting immediate feedback that something's wrong. And the problem is, we have zero baseline from which to work. A, understanding what is just normal baseline movement of being human. And B, not optimal, just baseline, like I could do this and you should be able to do it cold. You don't need to warm up and prep. Do kindergartners stretch before they sprint for the monkey bars? Hang on a second, I can do my dynamic leg swings. That's bullshit. You know, that was, that was the notion of supple leopard, like a leopard attacks and defends at full physical capacity instantaneously. It's full leopard.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Sleeps eighteen hours a day and then it goes.

• 1:34:18Speaker 03

  But if human beings, you should have that full physical capacity also, but we're not using it. So we lose it, right? We just, we don't know how compromised we are. You know, you should be pain free. And, and people should have a, a template for even taking a crack at their knee pain. If you have knee pain, you're like, what'd you do about it? And they're like, I went to see my doctor. I'm like, so you saw that your windshield wiper fluid was low? And so you went and saw your mechanic. What did the mechanic say? Like, what the fuck is wrong with you? That, you know, why didn't you have windshield wiper fluid? And the problem is, we have just disempowered people for generations. We have no idea of how to even basically do the, the simple maintenance.

• 1:34:53Speaker 01

  Right. Now, and what, what would you say between kind of like, what I would call chronic, stable pain versus like an acute pain? Because I, I think it's a big thing that comes up in my practice where when somebody tells me that they have a joint that's in pain, um, or a part of their body that's in pain, I say, you know, what happened? And if they don't have a story to me, that's like, you know, I was, you know, kite boarding and it kind of ripped my shoulder and now I'm in pain. You know, I consider that kind of more of a chronic, stable injury, correct?

• 1:35:25Speaker 03

  No, I think that's wrong. I think that the, let me give you the examples that, uh, I sat in a surgery with a friend, um, John Welborn, um, played in NFL for ten years.

• 1:35:37Speaker 03

  His knee looked like a garbage dump inside, like a good garbage dump. Like no ACL, like moon rocks floating in the fluid, osteo, like slag mites, slag tights, like literally like bloody cortical bone showing.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:50Speaker 03

  And bleeding into the joint space, like the worst knee you can imagine, right? Just so gross, no knee pain. And what I think people forget is how robust engineering is. You know, your iPad, you fracture and shattered the glass on the iPad. The iPad still works, you know, and that's what your body is. It doesn't work. It's a pain in the butt to negotiate that, you know? But there's so much, you know, if a horse gets a cold, you put the horse down. Right, that's, I mean, it's so touch and go. You know, you lose a lung, you still climb Everest. True fact, right? That's actually been done. You like this true fact thing? True fact. I like it. It's my, like, it's not a fact. It's a true fact. Big difference. And I think what we're seeing is, I think people have blown through their genetic inheritance.

• 1:36:35Speaker 03

  This tolerance for eating terribly for generations, for decades, and then all of a sudden being diabetic. Or, or moving a certain way because your body is, you're set up to, to be able to reproduce quick. And your body's got your back over and over and over and over again. And all of a sudden, you've worn a hole in your kneecap, but you're 27 and a runner. And your physician's like, hey, you should maybe stop running. And you're like, you can't control me? You're the worst doctor ever. And the doctor's saying something so reasonable. She's saying, you know, you've worn a hole in a bone that's designed to be 110 years old. Something's wrong. And I think pain is the same way. Sometimes we have people who have, you know, bad arthritis, but I clean up their movement pattern.

• 1:37:19Speaker 03

  And a lot of times what people don't realize is, remember that brain piece is that movement and pain are the same pathways in the brain. And I could be wrong, but I think it's the DCML pathway. Plus me, dorsal columnar medulliniscus, I went to grad school. I'll take it. And I could be wrong. Got me. But the problem is that, uh, One acronym, too much for two of us. Someone will, uh, the issue is that, you know, when you injure yourself, you shake it out, right? Because the movement blocks the pain. And you can see this on YouTube. Oh, yeah, absolutely. People get hurt and they run away. Ow, ow, and then run, right? Because the running blocks the pain signal, right? Well, it's like when I fucked up my thoracic spine.

• 1:38:01Tim Ferriss?

  This doctor, I mean, there are a bunch of issues with him, but he worked with a bunch of hockey teams. Anyway, he started tapping my trap and he's like, hey, can you feel your pain? And I was like, no, that's really interesting. And he's like, yeah, exactly. He's like, alright, so let me then proceed to prescribe you a bunch of fucking unnecessary temporary drugs. But it's amazing how much that movement or even palpitation masks pain.

• 1:38:27Speaker 03

  That's right. And so what we know about with chronic pain people, I'm like, well, you have pain during the day. No, what happened? I laid down at bed and at one in the morning, woke up and my shoulder was throbbing. Like, what happened in bed? What happened was that you stopped moving and your brain got the full impact of your pain sensation.

• 1:38:43Tim Ferriss?

  Gotcha.

• 1:38:44Speaker 03

  Right, so one of the, one of the aspects of this is, you know, if we, movement and pain get mapped. So if something's going on painfully for over two months, over a month, it's a chronic pain state, chronic pain condition, and your brain starts to map the pain pathway with the movement motor pathway, and those become conjoined. So Yanda started talking about this. And one of the ways that we're able to help people get out of chronic pain is to give them a new motor program, i.e. you don't squat with your knees in. You, you know, you, you move differently and your brain recognizes, it's so sophisticated. You know, if you continue the iPad analogy, if you, if you, you know, you, you need to know how the iPad swipes on and swipes off.

• 1:39:28Speaker 03

  You don't need to know how the touchscreen interfaces with the software. That's already happening underneath. You need to know how to turn things on and off. So if we can give people a brand new motor pathway, i.e. you squat a little more efficiently. Maybe I get you off that hot piece of bone and maybe I'll also give you, put the needle down in a brand new motor pathway that is pain free. And, because that, that, that, that boded well for us. I mean, it's one of those survival instincts that if you're moving poorly, then your brain starts to remember, oh, you got injured this, even though the, the noxious stimuli is going on every time you move, you still get the pain sensation, right? This is the chronic pain conundrum. And so what we do is we burn out people's nerve roots, right? We, we do radio frequency ablation, we put them on.

• 1:40:10Tim Ferriss?

  What, what is radio frequency ablation?

• 1:40:12Speaker 03

  They basically go in and

• 1:40:13Tim Ferriss?

  Sounds intense.

• 1:40:14Speaker 03

  And they, they, they fry out with radio frequencies. Like radio waves, they burn the nerves of people's backs.

• 1:40:22Speaker 01

  Ouch.

• 1:40:23Speaker 03

  And then they're on.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  So you're just like, let's turn these off.

• 1:40:26Speaker 03

  Let's turn them off. Let's just turn, let's pull the cords out. Because it's, we don't know how to help you. Remember, you're physician, and remember, I'm a, I'm a drinking wine with a physician. Your physician is on your side. And this is what people have forgotten. The physician is working to the best of their understanding.

• 1:40:40Speaker 01

  However, they also have a defensive medical practice, oftentimes due to the litigious nature of United States legal system, I would imagine.

• 1:40:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  I mean, maybe you can comment on this. It's just, it's just like, how much are physicians hamstrung from doing what they know is best because they fear some type of blowback?

• 1:41:02Speaker 03

  You can answer that, but how, how is a physician supposed to treat you in 10 minutes or 15 minutes?

• 1:41:07Speaker 01

  Well, right.

• 1:41:08Speaker 03

  And you have, you have carried your bullshit into physician's office.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:41:13Speaker 03

  I don't sleep. I move like shit. I don't exercise. I'm stressed out. My knee hurts. Stop.

• 1:41:17Speaker 01

  Right. No, and, and I would say there, there's a trained cynicism that happens over time where you don't, you don't believe that people are going to be willing and open and empowered to change. Uh huh. And so you just end up like managing who they are. You know what I mean? And so like, one of my big questions to you would, is basically like, um, is helping people to understand that there's like a, there's a pain of injury and there's a pain of transition. You know what I mean? So when like, one of your coaches, like, you know, Diane Foo is who I work with, you know, when she teaches me new moves or, or, or proper biomechanics, you know, one or two or three days later, I'm like, holy shit.

• 1:42:01Speaker 01

  You know, some of these muscles that I've never used properly before are like really talking to me.

• 1:42:06Speaker 03

  So I'll let, I'll let Justin give the outsiders insight.

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  Uh, well, I mean, Diane Foo is, is an Olympic lifting, you know, subject material expert. And so she teaches me how to move.

• 1:42:21Speaker 03

  Snatch, clean, work. And, and exercise.

• 1:42:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:42:24Speaker 03

  Diane's a coach at our gym.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:42:26Speaker 03

  And is the best Olympic lifting, best Olympic lifting thinking in the country right now, in the world right now.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  She's very smart.

• 1:42:33Speaker 03

  And, but only also because she can coach kids up to elderly and she knows how to scale up and down and yet she's, you know, working to the limits.

• 1:42:40Speaker 01

  So what's up with crossfitters and tattoos?

• 1:42:43Speaker 03

  I have to ask.

• 1:42:46Speaker 03

  I'm more just a tattoo on a thruster, okay, bro?

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Thruster, I like that.

• 1:42:54Speaker 03

  I'm gonna put that on my fucking LinkedIn, my LinkedIn profile. Our new phrase now, our new phrase is not how much you bench, it's do you think you can do a double body weight thruster?

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:43:05Speaker 03

  You know, you just bring it up, is that you're gonna be sore, that's okay.

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:43:13Speaker 03

  You know, people have so dissociated from their bodies that they can't make a correlation between I ate something and I feel like shit.

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:22Speaker 03

  With I moved and I'm sore, that's okay, versus I'm hurting, you know, they just don't have, it's all clumped into one thing, you know?

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  No, you know, my own personal story was like, you know, strangely enough, like roped into a flag football league by Bob Weir, guitarist of the Grateful Dead, as insane as that sounds.

• 1:43:44Speaker 03

  As that happens.

• 1:43:45Speaker 01

  As it happens, you know, I sprained my left knee, you know what I mean? And from that, it just created a series of like musculoskeletal.

• 1:43:55Speaker 03

  Let me ask you a serious question.

• 1:43:56Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:57Speaker 03

  Why did you think you were prepared? Had you prepared to play five football?

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  No, no, I was, it was.

• 1:44:02Speaker 03

  I'm a dyger! I can't do this!

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  Absolutely, you're not. Absolutely. And, you know, that left knee injury, you know, reduced my range of motion, which converted over to my right knee, lost its range of motion without pain, you know, and created this entire like pain cycle where I became like the Tin Man, you know? And I was like, basically trying to rehab myself and doing some things, but I basically, you know, came to Jesus and said, look, I'm gonna go down to Kelly's Gym and I'm gonna like get some help, you know? And, basically, you know, when I started working with Diane, you know, she just basically started teaching me proper biomechanics of fundamental movements, which included these Olympic and powerlifting moves, right?

• 1:44:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. And what people don't understand is that if you drill down on the technique of any sport, it's the best expression of physiology. Coaches have hacked this from the other side. They know how to get the best out of their athletes, bait for longevity, for performance, based on what's the best expression of human beings.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Yes, you know.

• 1:45:07Speaker 03

  And, and, and I think. That's the global, of course, there's some shortcuts, you know, NC2A is a great example of, you know, spending, throwing kids on the bonfire because there's another kid coming in, right? I mean, that's, that's exactly what we're seeing in the world.

• 1:45:22Tim Ferriss?

  Pretty amazing business model.

• 1:45:23Speaker 03

  It's amazing.

• 1:45:24Tim Ferriss?

  We'll pay you nothing, or the army, right?

• 1:45:27Speaker 01

  No, and you can extend that to professional sports too. You know what, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna put these professional athletes and we're gonna pump them up with all these catabolic agents like prednisone and anti-inflammatories and let them go out there and ruin their bodies and compete.

• 1:45:41Tim Ferriss?

  Not to like get into really controversial territory, but I'm just astonished by how vilified anabolic are. And then you have people taking cortisone injections every single match they play in the French Open.

• 1:45:54Speaker 03

  They don't get cortisone injections in the NFL anymore because

• 1:45:57Tim Ferriss?

  No, no, tennis.

• 1:45:58Speaker 03

  I know, but people demified, like demodified the needle. So now it's all, and I'm like, oh, great.

• 1:46:04Tim Ferriss?

  Oh, that's better.

• 1:46:05Speaker 03

  Less effective.

• 1:46:06Tim Ferriss?

  Thank you, liver.

• 1:46:07Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I mean, if any athlete is out there, like I've been waiting all along for like players associations to kind of actually stand up for that same thing. It's like, nobody bats an eye about putting a compromised athlete with some type of analgesic or catabolic agent to break down their tissue to enable them to perform when nobody's allowing them the, the kind of technology and enhancement of science to kind of give them some anabolic support. And I'm, I'm not saying that you, you don't uncheck that system and you let people just kind of take anabolic's, you know, unchecked and push the limits. I, I, you know, I, I agree, there has to be some limits and there has to be something to kind

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  of monitor that. But at the, but at the same time, like when you hear somebody like Rodney Harrison from the Patriots say like, look, I'm a 36-year-old athlete and I have 22-year-olds that are coming to try to take my job. And if I'm enhancing kind of recovery and rejuvenation from this brutal sport, you guys are gonna come down on me and judge me about that.

• 1:47:12Speaker 03

  I, I have talked to coaches.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  Think it's bullshit.

• 1:47:15Speaker 03

  High-level coaches in the NFL that have athletes show up the next day after a game. Primarily so they can move, so they can meta- metabolize the Tordol.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, oh, Jesus.

• 1:47:27Speaker 03

  Dude, we don't need to go out and drink after this event because you don't realize what's in your system.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:34Speaker 03

  And there's

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  Tordols and

• 1:47:35Speaker 03

  That's right, which is a hard anti- big anti-inflammatory.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:39Speaker 03

  And I don't think what people realize, there's even a connection between the Tordol, the anti-inflammatories that they're giving, and the severity of the brain contact. These things go past the blood-brain barrier.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:49Speaker 03

  You know, suddenly we start to see greater brain bleeds because of it. I mean, like, it's, it's all messed up. I mean, like, we could go down this rabbit hole, but, I mean,

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:47:57Speaker 03

  We are so naive about what's happening in this world.

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  Right, and you, you have to understand that, like, something like corticosteroids and anti-inflammatories, they, they, they're basically designed from a survival instinct to sell the fucking long-term farm to get through the current situation.

• 1:48:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, the trauma by fire.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, in, in, in, it's, it's really terrible that, that that's allowed to, to, to occur without the compensatory enhancement of recovery.

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  If you are listening and you go to the Football Hall of Fame speeches just last year, look at the number of coaches being crippled, being Don Shula helped by four people across the stage to accept his award. And that's because of, played football and then led this CEO lifestyle of not sleeping, culture of machulism, where he destroyed himself and now

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  Sitting down.

• 1:48:51Speaker 03

  Well, and

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Sixteen hours a day.

• 1:48:52Speaker 03

  The stress.

• 1:48:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:53Speaker 03

  And the poor nutrition and didn't, didn't support himself, you know, to, to be the highest level, high-stress CEO in the same, same environment as, like, hey, we've come through, we can keep these guys alive with cortisol and, you know, you know, it, it means disaster and those guys are crippled. And, and like that, remember, you have to come out unharmed at one rep of a million reps. And we're not talking about trauma, that, that's an aside. Bad stuff is gonna happen to you, we're just talking about the preventable disease.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Guys, I watched Jim Harbaugh. I was like, I went to Candlestick for the last game. You know, we had some kind of like sideline passes and I watched Jim Harbaugh like, you know, kind of hobble onto the goddamn field and I was like, man, this is the fucking quarterback. You know what I mean? Like, how the hell, like, what are the rest of the, what's the condition of the rest of these people? Uh, you know, 10, 20 years after.

• 1:49:50Tim Ferriss?

  So what, this is just a random aside, but it's related. How do you, how does your work with high level military differ with professional athletes?

• 1:50:02Speaker 03

  Same. We treat the military guys like high level athletes, but with less resources.

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Excellent.

• 1:50:09Speaker 03

  We know they're sleep, they don't, they don't have the option of eating well all the time.

• 1:50:13Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:14Speaker 03

  You know, so my helicopter pilots come in, Apache pilots, they're just being sent out.

• 1:50:18Tim Ferriss?

  What pilots?

• 1:50:19Speaker 03

  Apache pilots.

• 1:50:20Tim Ferriss?

  Apache?

• 1:50:20Speaker 03

  Apache helicopter tactical.

• 1:50:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yep, got it.

• 1:50:22Speaker 03

  And I'm like, are you eating yes or no?

• 1:50:27Speaker 03

  Have you had water today? Yes or no? You know what I mean? Like, A-10, same thing, like the amount of turnaround. Guys are gonna sit. So we look at them as more, as having less option.

• 1:50:37Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:37Speaker 03

  So I expect more from the professional athlete and I expect that the, that the military athlete, the high-end military athlete, right, the tactical athlete is gonna be more compromised because they have fewer support sources.

• 1:50:49Tim Ferriss?

  Military.

• 1:50:50Speaker 03

  The military.

• 1:50:51Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Speaker 03

  It's a disaster.

• 1:50:52Tim Ferriss?

  Oh dude, those guys are fucking amazing. I mean, it's just like the, because of four hour body, I mean, I've, I've really realized, I've had an interaction with two groups of folks that are very different, but related. One is hedge fund guys. So hedge fund guys are either like Jabba the Hutt or they're like, I'm gonna do the Iron Man three times a year.

• 1:51:14Speaker 03

  And they're all, they'll listen to you.

• 1:51:17Tim Ferriss?

  And I want NZT.

• 1:51:18Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:51:18Tim Ferriss?

  So can you make me the guy for the low list? Or, uh, on the other hand, you have guys who are drawn to certain aspects of four hour body, like the ultra endurance chapter, uh, particularly, uh, that are Navy SEALs or Rangers or military guys.

• 1:51:37Tim Ferriss?

  And I'm just fascinated and amazed by how much those guys do on so little. Cause they're like, yeah, you know what? My advantage, like I'm good at metabolizing garbage. So like I can eat anything and I can go run a fucking 50 mile run. And like, that's what makes me superior. And it's, it's really fascinating to see.

• 1:51:58Speaker 03

  We've run this experiment though. So what is best practice? And the key is uh, my grand, my step grandfather, stepfather in law, whatever is a engineer.

• 1:52:09Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know what that means, but I'm, I'm, I'm gonna go in.

• 1:52:11Speaker 03

  But he calls it a boundary spanner and you're a boundary spanner. And really the problem is that we have these siloed pieces of information and people aren't looking at best practices at the community next to them. Cause they don't think they can relate.

• 1:52:21Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:21Speaker 03

  And so suddenly if we can relate those communities, then we can start to kind of drill down on what's best practice.

• 1:52:29Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:29Speaker 03

  You know, and Dean Karnassis.

• 1:52:32Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:32Speaker 03

  His buddy.

• 1:52:33Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, his close buddy.

• 1:52:34Speaker 03

  Right. Such a stud. Like a lot of it was made of like the fact that he like ordered pizza one time and like, you know, on a run. The guy eats like a monk and then it matters less what he, what does he need to eat? He has, he knows during the marathons, he knows his macronutrient combinations. He's got things that doesn't upset his stomach, but like boom, comes back to monkdom. So he controls what he can control, when he can control it.

• 1:52:57Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:58Speaker 03

  And then there's other times he makes the best decision available to him. So if that's, I haven't eaten anything and the only thing available to me is like Otis Spunkmeyer muffin. You're gonna eat the Otis Spunkmeyer muffin, you know? Eric Cressy said, uh, really well, he's a performance baseball coach.

• 1:53:11Tim Ferriss?

  Eric's cool dude.

• 1:53:13Speaker 03

  He's cool.

• 1:53:13Tim Ferriss?

  He can deadlift like a motherfucker too.

• 1:53:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's a big, strong guy. We're, we're homies. And uh, he was like, look, you know.

• 1:53:19Tim Ferriss?

  He's good at the shoulder mechanics.

• 1:53:20Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. Are you going, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna give my kid pizza. If that's the only thing I can fuel them with for the day.

• 1:53:27Tim Ferriss?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53:28Speaker 03

  I'm gonna make the best choice that I have. And if we just have people make the best choice with the tools they have, already we see.

• 1:53:35Tim Ferriss?

  Dude, I'm so happy you know, I love Eric because like, I remember I asked him some like two liner question about the deadlift. And I was like, you know. My right sartorius is really bothering me because of blah, blah, blah. Like, how should I modify my sumo? And he sent me a fucking dissertation. It was like 10 pages long. And I was like, you know what? You have no idea how happy this makes me that you are so obsessive about lifting heavy shit off the floor.

• 1:53:58Speaker 03

  The best coaches in the world are all talking. They're all talking.

• 1:54:01Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:01Speaker 03

  And they're all comparing notes and they're all showing each other all of our data and our practices. Because we all realize that ultimately, the thing that matters is the programming. How many times a week do you need a deadlift? I don't know. That's up to you and your coach, but not how did that lift and the problems. So people are really generous and people were still stuck in web 2.0. I'm like, that's my secret sauce, you know, like that's bullshit. 3.0 as people are like, here's my model, here's my methodology. If I have something proprietary, you know, we understand. But I mean, the, the real thinkers and innovators are just as transparent as can be, which is exactly what.

• 1:54:38Tim Ferriss?

  Well, if you guys, the idea is worth next to nothing. It's the execution.

• 1:54:42Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:54:43Tim Ferriss?

  Which is the hard part, which is worth everything.

• 1:54:45Speaker 03

  That's right. And if you have any confidence in like, in your, in yourself and your abilities, you don't have to, you don't have to hoard secrets. You share that, you know what I mean? And it's really the dynamic because there's, there's always that continuum of growth and understanding. And so like, why do you have to create a proprietary product? Give it away. There's always going to be this advancement. Yeah, a hundred percent. We're, we're seeing, it's been exciting, you know? And the, the coaches that we feel like are close minded and, you know, territorial are just really like, you know, like that's why the seventies and eighties happened. Shit didn't get evolved.

• 1:55:26Speaker 03

  There's a real epoch right now. I keep talking about this, this epoch of renaissance where people are crossing boundaries. You and I, there's a physician talking to physio, talking to an entrepreneur, you know, biohacker.

• 1:55:37Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:55:38Speaker 03

  But like, we're all using the same language and working on the same sets of problems. How do we improve the human condition?

• 1:55:44Tim Ferriss?

  Right.

• 1:55:44Speaker 03

  Simple.

• 1:55:45Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah, it is. It is.

• 1:55:47Speaker 03

  I want to be pain free. I want to have, you know, I want to be lucid and successful. And, you know, I want to, I want to be functional, really functional when I'm 110.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:55:59Speaker 03

  You know, and that's, that's it.

• 1:56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and what you're alluding to too is, is that it's, it's, you know, the, the, the intention in the expectation is kind of the primal drive. It's like, what, what do we want to create? You know what I mean? Because we, we've, at this point in humanity, we've created all the current circumstances that we're experiencing. And so really, the big question is, is kind of what, what is our, what is our expectations for ourselves individually and collectively? And we don't, you know, it's the intention that's going to drive the, the questions, it's going to drive the inquiry, it's going to drive the answers, it's going to drive the investigation.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  And that's really what's going to actually lead us to accelerating, you know, humanity, human potential. And that's really what's exciting to me. It's, it's not really about what you know and what you can commandeer. It's really about the dynamic interplay of like throwing this outer to all of us as individuals and having us figure this out as citizens of humanity and pulling it back and sharing and, and bouncing these ideas off and incubating this and seeing what the hell happens. Like that, that's what's exciting me. You know what I mean? And, and there's all kinds of possibilities there.

• 1:57:22Tim Ferriss?

  This is a fucking fun format. I like this. I think this is my favorite format so far.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:28Tim Ferriss?

  Should have a bunch of stuff with this weird podcast that I'm experimenting with.

• 1:57:33Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know if I cut us short, but I feel like we probably need some food considering that we've had three or four bottles of wine, uh, which has been really amazing. Uh, but, um, so I'm going to close with a couple of things because I feel like we should use some calories and maybe we can do the Japanese soak.

• 1:57:52Tim Ferriss?

  What are you most excited about these days? Kelly Starrett.

• 1:57:56Speaker 03

  I think we're.

• 1:57:57Tim Ferriss?

  Starrett, that is correct.

• 1:57:58Speaker 03

  Starrett. We can, uh, we violate the dip thong. It's not staring, Starrett.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Dip thong.

• 1:58:05Speaker 03

  Bam!

• 1:58:05Tim Ferriss?

  Dude, dip thong. Fuck that dip thong. Fuck the dip thong.

• 1:58:08Speaker 03

  I think.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  Boner.

• 1:58:11Speaker 03

  I think, uh.

• 1:58:14Speaker 03

  We can solve some significant public health problems. And we're on the verge of being able to prevent a whole host of public health problems. Because it's not, it's, the practices are getting easier. You know, let me give you an example. You know, BCD, child obesity is a gigantic problem in America. You can't mandate exercise in schools. You can't do it. There's not enough, there's enough PE, PE is cut. If you had kids standing at their desks, that's it. Just stand at your desk. They burn another 50 to 100,000 calories a year. Which is like 22 marathons. And suddenly, take away the chairs, could stand and literally, you know, they don't fidget. And we can manage this.

• 1:58:58Speaker 03

  And that's just best practice, because you shouldn't sit anyway. And, you know, they do plenty of sitting outside of school. So if you just take away the chairs, suddenly, watch what happens. That's the kind of social change we're seeing, we're gonna see.

• 1:59:10Speaker 01

  Cool. What, you know, jam?

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  You know, my, my, my, my bottom line of, of what I think that we have to kind of face going forward is, is basically this question of like, you know, realizing who we are and our potential, you know, individually and collectively. And, you know, one thing that I, like, I heard when I was in medical school that I think is a really interesting thing that, that impressed me was I actually came across on like a 1984 lecture by Tim Leary.

• 1:59:54Speaker 01

  And basically, at that, at that point, he was, what he said was that there's this entity coming along called the Intranet. Is what he, what he called it. And he said that, look, it's gonna connect us on a level that we haven't been connected. You know, similar to how like the Gutenberg printing press, the semated printed books and information for everybody to kind of take in by themselves. And, you know, in development, written language actually helped humanity kind of evolve. So there's this Intranet, there's this connection on a global scale, in a non-local scale that we have. And we're gonna be able to share ideas and information where we wouldn't.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  Been able to do it. He said that there's going to actually be, he predicted that there's going to be a lot of social unrest. That that results from this. And then he said that after that, we understand how to harness that power. And to me, what I'm most interested in is is how that we can all kind of come together as global citizens. Start asking kind of the deeper questions of humanity and contributing to this and figuring out big answers. And accelerating kind of human potential in the human race.

• 2:01:17Speaker 01

  And to me, that's what kind of excites me looking forward in that. And that spans across all kinds of avenues. Political, medical, you know, uh, social, whatever. Let's all get together. Let's share our ideas. Let's think critically and let's use our technology to kind of accelerate what we can figure out and what were our potential was. And I think that's what excites me.

• 2:01:47Tim Ferriss?

  Smart dude.

• 2:01:48Speaker 03

  You can't have sick toes. Sick. I'm having six fingers. Don't.

• 2:01:54Speaker 03

  Hell of a splitter.

• 2:01:55Tim Ferriss?

  Well, guys, we're gonna, we're gonna get some food. I'll give you guys some calories. Uh, I think Thai food is on the menu. I was thinking, Kelly, of force feeding you a bunch of lentils, just to have legumes to give you shit from the paleo community. But I shall regress from that and be more reasonable.

• 2:02:14Tim Ferriss?

  Kelly, where can we find out more about you, what you're up to, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? What, what should, uh, these billions of listeners?

• 2:02:24Speaker 03

  Billions.

• 2:02:25Tim Ferriss?

  Check out?

• 2:02:28Speaker 03

  If you know where to start, we put out about 600 free videos on mobility wad. Mobility W O D as in workout of the day dot com. You can search it, you can search.

• 2:02:38Tim Ferriss?

  Including me stretching my quad on a car hood like a police officer.

• 2:02:43Speaker 03

  That's right. We did, we did that. If you dig deep enough, there's Tim, deep in the day. Trying to, trying to take on, uh, those are public service messages, bro.

• 2:02:53Tim Ferriss?

  That was.

• 2:02:54Speaker 03

  But you know, that, that's where to start. You know, you can't believe that if you start taking a crack at this yourself, you can fix it. You're, you're that smart.

• 2:03:03Tim Ferriss?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:04Tim Ferriss?

  Agreed.

• 2:03:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:03:05Tim Ferriss?

  Uh, just wish that, uh, people check you out? Or, uh, what would you like to impart to these masses?

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know what? My, my honest parting comment is to not check me out.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  Fucking look in the mirror, check yourself out.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  You know, and, uh,

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  and, you know, my, my aspiration is to, is to, to go underground and be a ghost.

• 2:03:39Tim Ferriss?

  That will result in a lot of people Googling your name.

• 2:03:42Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yes. But anyways, yeah. Cool, you know, empower yourself, figure it out.

• 2:03:48Tim Ferriss?

  All right, gentlemen, thank you so much. Pleasure. That was awesome. We'll get some food. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, we will, uh, talk to you shortly. I'm soon with, wait a second, let me rephrase my English. Shortly, I am sure, with our next podcast. And that is brought to you courtesy of wine. Thank you very much. Good night.

• 2:04:14Speaker 04

  If you want more of the Tim Ferriss Show, you can subscribe to the podcast on iTunes or go to fourhourblog.com.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  F O U R A H O U R B L O G dot com.

• 2:04:23Speaker 04

  Where you'll find an award-winning blog, tons of audio and video interview stories with people like Warren Buffett and Mike Shinoda from Linkin Park, the books, plus much, much more. Follow Tim on Twitter, it's twitter.com/TFerriss. That's T F E R R I S S. Or on Facebook at facebook.com/TimFerriss. Until next time, thanks for listening.