How Modern Dating Became Such a Dumpster Fire (ft. Sadia Khan)

Let's be honest: the modern dating landscape is a shit show. From declining marriage rates and rising infidelity to the nightmare of using dating apps—it's brutal out there. With all these supposedly "easy" ways to meet new people, why are the people who want long-term, stable relationships so fed up with the dating world? I invited dating and relationships coach Sadia Khan on the pod to discuss how the skills we use to excel in modern dating often sabotage long-term happiness. Sadia brings a refreshing, thought-provoking perspective to the conversation that will help you navigate the complexities of today's dating world. We dive into the role of self-esteem in successful relationships, the pitfalls of modern dating advice, and the skewed expectations shaped by social media, dating apps, and pornography. Enjoy. CHAPTERS Chapters 00:00:00 Introduction: When Dating Advice Became a Dumpster Fire 00:04:36 Modern Dating Is Training You for Divorce 00:05:33 Social Media, Porn, and the Extrinsic Values Trap 00:10:42 Why Dating Apps Prime You for the Wrong Things 00:17:46 The Humanization Problem: When Men See Women as Vaginas 00:14:20 Why Opposite-Gender Friendships Are Essential 00:28:12 The Glory Hole Revelation and Male Impulse Slavery 00:29:47 Sexual Arousal vs. Real Life: Separating the Realms 00:22:54 When Men Get Stuck at 16: Status, Insecurity, and the 19-Year-Old Trap 00:24:16 Beauty vs. Sexual Attractiveness: The Distinction Men Miss 00:37:49 The Worst Women's Dating Advice: The Narcissism Epidemic 00:40:10 Why Women's Dating Advice Overprotects Feelings 00:41:23 The Instagram Picture Double Standard 00:43:00 The Curse of High Expectations and Unrealistic Checklists 00:45:41 Settling Isn't Failure: It's Where Intimacy Lives 00:47:18 Self-Esteem and Love: Why Low Self-Esteem Ruins Both Giving and Receiving 00:48:53 How to Know You Have Relationship Self-Esteem 00:50:22 Peace vs. Denial: Earning Stability Through Difficult Conversations 00:51:11 Boundaries: Instructions for Love, Not Ultimatums 00:56:05 Learning Each Other: The Joy of Long-Term Intimacy 00:57:15 Deprioritize Sex: The Message Young Men Need to Hear 01:00:05 Charisma, Insecurity, and the 55-Year-Old with the Escort ⇨ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://markmanson.net/breakthrough⁩⁠⁠⁠ ⇨ Get clarity on what actually matters. Try Purpose, Mark's AI mentor app that learns your patterns, challenges your blind spots, and helps you take action. Get started at ⁠⁠⁠⁨https://bit.ly/4w46FMH⁠⁠⁠ FOLLOW MARK Mark's IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/markmanson⁠ Solved IG: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/solvedpodcast/⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://x.com/markmanson⁠ LinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmanson/⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@IAmMarkManson

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mark Manson?

  When I was young, pretty much all of the marriage and relationship advice I heard boiled down to wait as long as possible to do it. Don't marry until you're 30. Date as many people as you can. Take care of yourself first. Don't give up too much of yourself. Date around. Find someone who's perfect for you. And if they're not perfect for you, kick their ass to the curb and move on with no regrets. Now, statistics say that the past two generations have apparently taken this advice to heart. The marriage rate is at an all-time low. People are waiting longer than ever to marry, and people date more frequently and date more people than ever before. Non-monogamy is becoming a thing. And the coup de grâce? Infidelity rates have risen every decade, stretching all the way back to the free love 60s.

• 0:42Mark Manson?

  Now, with dating apps, it's never been easier to drop one person and skip right to the next one. Sorting people by your ideal checklist of traits is standard now, and the refrain of "they weren't right for you, you can do better" has never been stronger. Yet if you dig into the psychological literature, the findings are clear. Married people are happier. They live longer. They make more money. They report more meaning and satisfaction in their lives. Being in long, boring, stable relationships is good for our mental health and happiness. Yet the message to young people seems to be the opposite. Long-term relationships matter. I didn't appreciate this until I was well into my 30s. I grew up with divorced parents telling me not to settle, to get my career and friends and finances in the order before I found someone to share them with. I dated around as much as possible

• 1:27Mark Manson?

  in my 20s, and I dropped relationships, both good and bad, at the first sign of danger. Now, I look back and I wonder if maybe I took things too far. My guest today is Sadia Khan, a psychologist and dating coach. Sadia is a British Muslim, so she brings an interesting perspective from two different cultures, as well as her academic background. She's unconventional, and that most of her advice is stuff that my grandmother probably would have said if she were alive today. Yet, in the age of social media, dating apps, and abundant pornography, Sadia's advice is... well, it hits a little different than Nana's. Let's just put it that way. In today's episode, we discuss how the skills that people develop to maximize their dating prospects are the same skills That hinder their long term relationships and intimacy.

• 2:13Mark Manson?

  We talk about the relationship between sex appeal and status. How men and women who objectify each other kind of deserve each other. And how insecure men's simplistic views of sex only makes them feel even more insecure. We talk about how most women's dating advice encourages outright narcissism and entitlement. And how this is only frustrating the women in the long run rather than helping them. We talk about how pornography has skewed male expectations of intimacy. While social media has skewed female expectations of intimacy. And, well, the disaster that it's caused for everybody. We talk about the relationship between self esteem and love. And why insecure men and women overcompensate in all areas of their lives, not just with each other. We talk about why boundaries are actually for other people's benefit, not just yours.

• 2:58Mark Manson?

  And of course, we talk about prostitutes, gold diggers and glory holes. You know, the three pillars of any good relationship podcast. That and much, much more. Drew joined me in studio for this one, so it's a very special episode. And please be sure to follow the show, leave a review, tell me and Drew how handsome we are. It helps me get more guests for the show and it helps Drew get more dates. And it's the best way to support us and let us know that you love all the juicy information you got from the episode. So without further ado, let's get into it.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  20 million books sold, zero fucks given. It's the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

• 3:40Mark Manson?

  Welcome, Sadia.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:41Mark Manson?

  This is the first in studio interview on the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast. Honored to have you as a guest.

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Extremely honored to be here. I don't, I've been saying this online all the time. I am the biggest Mark Manson fan. You're, you're the only content I refer to when I'm double checking if I've got something right. So I'm like, what would Mark say? Okay, let me double check. Okay, he agrees. Perfect. Then I must be right.

• 4:01Mark Manson?

  Well, flattery will give you, get you very far in this, in this studio. This is also a first. Drew is joining us for the first time on an interview. We thought it would be fun since you are a relationship expert.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:14Mark Manson?

  I'm happily married for a long time.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:16Mark Manson?

  He's happily single. And so we thought it'd be interesting to have both perspectives and come at it from both angles. So we'll see where this goes. I want to start with, you had a spicy quote that I saw recently, which was, you said that modern dating. Is training people for divorce.

• 4:35Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 4:35Mark Manson?

  What do you mean by that?

• 4:36Speaker 02

  Um, you're practicing all the skills and tools you need to recover from a breakup, to have disassociated sex and to look for very extrinsic values in a partner. So things that we would look for in short term dating like looks, sex, uh, status, power and how to replace them in case it goes wrong. So we always go into dating with an insurance policy in case this person goes wrong, in case there's somebody else out there, in case I can do better. With that mentality, we don't practice any of the skills and tools we need to maintain a connection and therefore we are going from relationship to relationship rather than learning anything that will maintain the relationship. We just learn how to recover and replace people sadly.

• 5:15Mark Manson?

  Interesting. Okay, so there's a lot, I think we can pull, there's a few threads there that we can pull at. I, the first one that stands out to me is that we're filtering for the wrong things. We're filtering for the, kind of the superficial.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 5:29Mark Manson?

  Extrinsic traits.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:30Mark Manson?

  Looks, status, sex. Why do you, is that the apps? Like what, what's driving that, do you think?

• 5:36Speaker 02

  Um, I would say the apps don't help. Um, and I, I really don't like to sound like a broken record, but I think from, uh, from a female perspective, the extrinsic values are really pulled from social media and seeing a lifestyle that they're constantly bombarded with. So that's caused them to look for more extrinsic values. For men, I think pornography has caused them to look for very extrinsic values. And that combination of women that are looking for money and men looking for sex means that sex workers and more promiscuous women are reaching the most successful men and they're pairing up quite quickly and easily. It doesn't last, but they're pairing up quite quickly and easily. But people who are actually looking for intrinsic values and looking for connection, they're really struggling in the dating market. And so we have to look at where the, where society's made it easier for and we're making

• 6:20Speaker 02

  it easier for people with the most junk values.

• 6:22Mark Manson?

  How do we counteract that?

• 6:24Speaker 02

  It's very difficult. It's very, very difficult because people don't realize where the indoctrination is coming from and they don't think they're indoctrinated. They don't realize that when you're constantly seeing really beautiful airbrushed women all day, every day, and then you're Googling how, that what they look like naked and you're being able to subscribe to that. They don't realize that that is severing away at your ability to connect to a woman on your actual level. Like there'll be men who are, you know, super overweight, super old, might be from a different culture, but they're Googling their dream woman and thinking they deserve them. They think simply because they've seen it, they deserve it. Same thing with women. They'll be watching couple content where a man buys a woman a bag for Christmas and for Valentine's Day and decorate, and they think because they've seen it, they deserve it. So we have to really undo the conditioning, which is difficult to do.

• 7:09Mark Manson?

  It almost just sounds like people should get offline.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. It's like, how do we, how do we counteract online behavior?

• 7:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 7:17Speaker 02

  We just simply can't. And I say this from a privileged position. I didn't grow up with Tinder and Instagram and stuff. I didn't grow up with that. And so when you've grown up with Snapchat, you've grown up with Instagram, like they start at 10, 11 years old. How do we uncondition that young mind? So I think I'm speaking from a, it sounds like a high horse, but I've actually just escaped that part of life. But if I was 10 years younger, if I was 21, 22 years old, there'd be no way I would think any differently to what the young people are thinking now.

• 7:45Mark Manson?

  My wife and I, we met each other like a month before Tinder came out and we joked that we like.

• 7:50Speaker 02

  Really? You just met before?

• 7:51Mark Manson?

  Just got in.

• 7:52Speaker 02

  So it would have been 2012.

• 7:54Mark Manson?

  12.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  12. Oh, is that when Tinder came out? 2012?

• 7:56Mark Manson?

  I think so. It was like a month or two before.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. You just missed it.

• 8:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Thank goodness. Yeah, thank goodness.

• 8:02Mark Manson?

  But it's funny though, cause like a conversation I often have with people who come to me who are single and frustrated, it, you know, it's, I think everything you're saying is, is true. I also think the, the nature of the dating apps is that, you know, you have to set filters for yourself and you have to set, you have to define like what you're looking for and what you're not looking for. And I just think that most of the things that if you ask somebody, what are you looking for in a partner? The most immediate answers are probably the wrong ones. You know, people think, oh, I want somebody who's like tall and wealthy and funny and like, okay, that stuff's nice, but ultimately that's not the thing that determines whether it's

• 8:46Mark Manson?

  gonna be a good partner for you long-term or not. And I just remember, like, when I think back to my own dating life, here, here comes Mark's old man moment. So back in my day, when you actually went to a bar and talked to a woman, there were so many circumstances in my young life where I would go to a party or dinner or something and I would meet a woman and my initial interest, like there was no initial interest. I didn't think she was that attractive. I, I, I wasn't that into her. But over the course of the night of like talking to her, seeing her personality, seeing her sense of humor, there was a chemistry there that ended up being like very sexy. And and actually, a lot of those women were like some of the best relationships that I had, right?

• 9:29Mark Manson?

  So it's like you said, you get this online, you get this idealized version of what a partner should be. That is impossible for anybody to live up to, whereas it's almost better to like not know what your ideal partner is. And just kind of like use that curiosity to go find out.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  But the thing is, you went in with the mentality of humanizing women, like wanting to know what they were like. And

• 9:51Mark Manson?

  Yeah, that's the, yeah.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  That's the key.

• 9:53Mark Manson?

  Horrible mistake.

• 9:58Mark Manson?

  I'm still haven't recovered.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  With that mentality, you can either create connection or not. But with the dehumanized version of dating that we've created through online dating apps and Instagram and pornography, by dehumanizing both men and women, we look going to relationships, looking what we can access from them rather than what we can contribute to them. And as a result, we've got endless people almost dating it with a psychopathic kind of mentality of just what can I get rather than what can I give? So you'll have men like, I can get sex from this girl, I can get this, I can get that. But they're not looking at, can I be responsible? Can I look after, can I father children, can I do? So we're forgetting responsibilities and just looking at the hedonistic view of creating connections.

• 10:39Mark Manson?

  What say you, single men?

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Well, so I haven't used dating apps since 2018. I'm off them. Yeah, and barely on social media anymore too. Do you think though, too, that dating apps, not only, somebody could come in with the right motivations and they have, you know, solid values and intrinsic values like you talk about, but the dating apps actually prime them more towards the extrinsic values? So, you know, just by the nature of using them, you're actually pushed in that direction.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Absolutely. It's catering to that need. It's a kind of making it so zoomed in on extrinsic values. You don't know them. You can only judge by looks. So when you are beautiful, you will be overwhelmed by the dating apps. And as a result, you start to dehumanize men and you think, oh, I'm so sick of. Responding to these guys. And when you're a successful man at it, you do humanize it and just use it as sex, sex, sex, sex, sex. So what ends up happening is the people who have the most access become the most jaded by them. Yeah, either you become too sexual as a man, or you can become too fed up of men as a woman. And the ones that actually have the best and purest intentions, they can't even utilize it for the right reason. So it gets difficult for them, for the people in who are actually going in with the right intentions.

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Cause they learn very quickly in order to stand out and even get a date, you have to cater to the wrong intentions. If you're a woman that wants to actually get a marriage from it, but you're realizing you're getting no matches, she'll end up starting to show more skin. And therefore attract men who are looking for her looks. If you're a man who can't get any matches, he learns, let me just post my watch or let me just show my car. And then I'll get more matches. So by design, we end up pushing them towards intrinsic values.

• 12:14Mark Manson?

  You know what is like a billion dollar business idea? Somebody should create a dating app. Maybe somebody's already tried this. Somebody should create, you know, like that Netflix show, Love is Blind.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:23Mark Manson?

  Somebody should create the dating app version of that. Where it's like, you don't, it's personality test based.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:29Mark Manson?

  So you get questionnaires about your values and your personality and the things you enjoy doing. And then you match or unmatch people based on that.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:37Mark Manson?

  And then it reveals like what they look like, what they do for work, all that stuff later.

• 12:41Speaker 02

  That would be a cool concept, but if you're not on dating apps, how do you meet people?

• 12:45Speaker 03

  Uh, through friends, mostly, yeah.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Cause people always ask me how they meet people. Do you, do you know what to say to that? Like when people ask you where to meet, what do I, what do you usually say?

• 12:54Speaker 03

  I mean, I, that, over the last several years, people that I've dated have met through friends.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  It's a lot slower pace, obviously too. I usually get to know them a little bit and we'll hang out a few times. And it's like Mark was saying.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  You come to find things attractive about them that you don't immediately see. Or, or they become attractive over time. So it's usually through friends and just, yeah, just, um.

• 13:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  Just getting, putting yourself out there, saying yes to more things for sure. Yeah.

• 13:18Mark Manson?

  Drew has, uh, become very passionate, passionate about yoga. Which is, which is straight, straight man code for, uh, giving a date.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  But you've got to put yourself in the right environments. I guess it's it's worth a try. Like you've got to put yourself in the right environments.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  You do.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  But it is very difficult.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  It's hard.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  I don't know where single people meet each other sadly outside of apps. I don't know. Because I talk about how bad apps are. They sometimes can be used as a way to numb heartbreak as well. So people don't even experience heartbreak anymore. They just jump on an app, distract themselves. So we're devoiding ourselves of human emotions and therefore devoiding ourselves of how intimate a relationship should be. But at the same time, I don't offer a solution. So this is where I feel bad. I don't have a solution. What's the alternative? I wish I knew, but I just unfortunately don't really know.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  I heard you speak about male female relationships or I'm sorry, friendships. Yeah. And that to me, I I've always made friends easily with with other women. Um. And so I think, you know, having that and then I'll meet some of their friends or something like that. And that's a good.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've never understood the advice of not having female friends and not having male friends.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  Do people actually recommend that?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I I have so many of my clients will come to me and say, my dating coach says I should never have female friends.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Fire him.

• 14:32Speaker 02

  Fire them. What childish advice is that?

• 14:35Speaker 03

  Some of my closest friends are are women, actually.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, my closest friends have always been male. And one of the reasons I have this perspective online where people are a bit confused why it's so masculine is because I've always had male friends. And the the amazing part of male friends is you finally get to you don't sexualize everybody of the opposite gender.

• 14:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  People without opposite gender friends, they sexualize everybody.

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Everybody of a different gender, they sexualize. When you make friends with the opposite gender, you're less easily impressed by them because you know how the opposite gender works. And you're not easily swayed by what they say and do for you. And but you're also less excited by the opposite gender. You actually, it takes more than just them being a man or them being a woman.

• 15:11Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  For them to gauge your interest. So I think you really deprive yourself of a lot of stability when you don't have the opposite gender friends.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I think that's a big reason why men and women struggle to make friends with the opposite gender is that they they don't know how to stop sexualizing them.

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  Or seeing them as some some form of other. But the the crazy thing is, is that if you spend time as a as a man, if you spend time with a lot of female friends.

• 15:36Mark Manson?

  You get really good at communicating and empathizing with women.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:40Mark Manson?

  Which makes you a much better partner when you when you start dating.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  And the other thing it does is it helps remove women off their pedestals. So many men I was friends with when I was younger, who may have had a little crush after getting to know me in five minutes. They could never in a million years. Yeah, they're like, oh, you know, they realize how quickly attractive, unattractive, how quickly we're all the same. Women are just simply the same. You talk to them the same way you would talk to a non-attractive partner. And it just releases that anxiety you have with talking to the opposite gender.

• 16:09Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Same.

• 16:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah, they're human too.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. They're flawed as well.

• 16:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah, everybody shits things.

• 16:17Mark Manson?

  What is the, I mean, other than that, what else do you think most men's dating advice gets wrong?

• 16:22Speaker 02

  Um, they first with the lack of friendships, but the other thing that they do is they really place a lot of their self-esteem on the attractiveness of their partner and they derive a lot of their ego from how attractive their partner is. And they feel really low self-esteem when they don't get an attractive partner. And they make their type an appearance. So they'll say, my type is blonde, blue eyes, and my type is brunette and curvy. But what I my advice is always make your type a treatment. How do you get treated by that person? If every time your type is blonde, blue eyes, but she's treating you badly, she should no longer be your type. Or if your type is this particular man and he's not treating you well, he should no longer be your type. Your type shouldn't just be a decision. It should be malleable based on the feedback you're getting from that type.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  So I always try and say, make your type the how much do they soothe your anxieties? How good love they make you feel, how connected they, how do they treat you? How do you need you feeling? That should become your type.

• 17:17Mark Manson?

  You know what's ironic about that? I used to run into guys like that also. Full disclosure for listeners, I started my career as a dating coach.

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Yes. And also, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Mark's book and models is absolutely fantastic. I came across it recently. I was just telling him before the show. It is still so relevant to men today and it was written in two thousand and eleven. It please go buy that book. It's fantastic. As a man, skip this podcast, go buy that book.

• 17:42Mark Manson?

  Your check will be in the mail. It's. So I started my career coaching men and I used to run into that all the time. And I remember the irony with that is that the men who obsess over getting the hot girl or the hottest girl, it's only to impress other men. Like they're actually being driven by a desire to connect with other men more than they're being driven by a desire to connect with women.

• 18:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:08Mark Manson?

  And I used to try to tell this to guys, like I explained this to them and it, I don't know, it would make their heads explode. Like I remember I used to ask guys, I'm like, what would you rather? Behind door number one is a 10 out of a 10, but she's a total pain in the ass, selfish, doesn't treat you well. Behind door number two is like a six or seven out of 10. But she's amazing. You have so much fun with her. You're so happy with her. You like her family. You have great sex. Which door would you pick? Now, all the sane men would say door number two, but occasionally you get a guy who'd say door number one. And I remember like, I would just stop the entire session right then. I'm like, what are you thinking? Like, what is this about really? Cause it's not about women.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  It's not about women. It's about their relationship with vaginas.

• 18:52Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 02

  And one thing that's made me a little bit jaded about working, when I first came out, I was known as very misogynistic and very pro men. And I have no problem with that. I am a very, I love men. I have a very good partner, a great relationship with my father. I have a great relationship with men. But then as I've started working with more and more men, particularly as they get more and more successful, they reduce women down to vaginas because they don't have the time to become intimate and connected to their partner as they get busier and get more successful. They reduce them down to sex and they will risk a very stable, connected relationship with their wife and kids, which might get monotonous, boring. It happens. It happens in relationships. They will risk that for somebody who has nothing else going for them, but is able to please them sexually.

• 19:36Speaker 02

  Are the normal men going for connection because they haven't got, aren't spoilt for choice? But when they're, when men are given all the money in the world, do they become more crude in their selection?

• 19:48Mark Manson?

  I don't know. I mean, I don't. The short answer is I don't know.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:52Mark Manson?

  But I, you know, I think the relationship between wealth and promiscuity is is pretty obvious, which is that the wealthier you are as man, the more opportunities you're gonna have.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:02Mark Manson?

  And the easier it is to cover your tracks.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:05Mark Manson?

  Like you can afford to go get that hotel room for a night or whatever.

• 20:08Speaker 02

  Personal assistant who will send the emails to everybody.

• 20:10Mark Manson?

  Yeah, exactly. So it's, that makes sense. Like, one of the things that I had Morgan Housel on the podcast months ago, and he wrote the psychology of money. And one of the things that he said, he said, money doesn't change people. It amplifies what's already there.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 20:26Mark Manson?

  Right? So there's probably a lot of men who don't have the self-control or the correct prioritization to be in a committed relationship, be faithful, be loyal. But they also don't have the means to fuck up their marriage.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:42Mark Manson?

  And so that almost like it puts guardrails around them. But then when you get a lot of money, it removes the guardrails. So if you are that sort of man, then it's fair game.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  What created the desire from your perspective to not chase more like just very shallow qualities and actually want to get to know women, actually want to connect with them coming from a pick-up artist background?

• 21:02Mark Manson?

  So I was a little bit weird in that it took, and it took me a while to admit this to myself, because I wanted to be like all bro-y, you know, a man's man, whatever. The sex itself was never that interesting or exciting. It was the, almost the game. It was like the connection and the excitement and the flirtation and the escalation of everything.

• 21:23Speaker 02

  Chemistry part of things.

• 21:24Mark Manson?

  That was the most fun. Like, I actually, it took me a while to realize this, but I actually enjoyed, I would have a night where I would have this like amazing kind of romantic, intimate experience and not have sex with a woman, then just like find a drunk girl at the bar and take her home and bang her and forget about her the next day. Like, the latter was just not very satisfying at all.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:46Mark Manson?

  And eventually I admitted that to myself and realized that this is, my issues are actually much deeper than I thought they were. And that I, I just kind of have this weird craving or, or constant desire for intimacy.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:59Mark Manson?

  That was, I wasn't finding a way to fulfill that in another way, in a healthy way. And, and I, it was, I was very, I had a lot of commitment issues. And so I think it was a compensation of like, well, I'm terrified of commitment, but if I can just like, Have all these like romantic flings and like one week. You know, trysts and i- i- it can like overcome that.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Okay, so that was the mentality back. But do you think that's most men confusing their desire for sex when really it's a desire for intimacy?

• 22:30Mark Manson?

  No, I I my experience is is that I was the exception. Most men it was.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  They're obsessed with it, right?

• 22:37Mark Manson?

  Yeah, either like some sort of sexual fixation.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:39Mark Manson?

  Or i- in most cases, it was a status thing. And I and I think it was a status thing to come back to your point of like. They were the nerd growing up. They had no opportunities. They were looked down on. Now they're twenty five, thirty, thirty five. They're really successful. But like, they've still got that.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  They're stuck at sixteen.

• 22:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah, they're stuck at sixteen. They still have something to prove. They've still got a chip on their shoulder. And they're like, you know, if I sleep with a bunch of hot girls. Then all the guys at work will like respect me or, you know, then I'll be like the cool guy that everybody wants to hang out with and.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  And they literally get stuck at sixteen. I meet men that are forty five, fifty years old and they're still sexualizing nineteen, twenty year old girls. And I can't wrap my head around it, but online they give the advice that that's a great, that's the way men are. But I feel like you haven't humanized enough women at that age for you to. Because when you meet a nineteen year old, you should realize she's a child.

• 23:34Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  You should realize that my desire for her is me being stuck at sixteen. As an adult male, I should recognize that she's not an adult enough for me to act, and I shouldn't be sexualizing her.

• 23:44Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 23:44Speaker 02

  But they've pu- pushed past that. And I don't know if that's pornography induced or if it's online information. But they somehow have pushed past their disgust and turned that into desire. For girls of any age or any any background and even have financial background. They will exploit that just for their own gains. And I don't know what how that's going to pan out.

• 24:03Mark Manson?

  So another epiphany I had at some point in my adult life was was a realization that there is a difference between. Beauty and sexual attractiveness.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 24:14Mark Manson?

  That you can have an extremely physically beautiful woman.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 24:19Mark Manson?

  Who is not sexually attractive and you can have a a. A woman who's not extremely beautiful, who is very sexually attractive. Like those two things, I think most men just couple them.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:31Mark Manson?

  In their brains and they don't critically think about that. And so they'll see a hot nineteen year old. And they're just immediate assumption is like, she's hot, I wanna fuck her. And it's, they, they haven't thought through that process anymore yet. And, and to the point where they would have the emotional, I mean, it is essentially emotional maturity.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:50Mark Manson?

  That we're talking about, of like realizing that, uh, you know, sexualization is, is, uh, like almost the most primitive form of

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Evaluating.

• 24:59Mark Manson?

  Evaluating a person or seeing somebody. And, uh, when you open yourself up to kind of these, these more emotional levels, um, in the, the different dynamics that play out between two people, that you can actually lose attractiveness. I'm, I remember when I was like, cause I worked with a lot of those guys, you know, forty five year olds who wanted to date twenty year olds.

• 25:20Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 25:20Mark Manson?

  I never really got it, but I remember when I was like twenty eight or twenty nine, I went on a date with a nineteen year old. And I couldn't get through the date. I was like, this is, I'm with a child.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:32Mark Manson?

  She is literally a child.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  A child.

• 25:35Mark Manson?

  And like, there's nothing for us to talk about. There's nothing interesting going on in her life. Like, why am I here?

• 25:41Speaker 02

  I feel that even when I have therapy clients, so when I have like a, a twenty one year old might come to me. And I almost feel guilty because I'm like, I'm getting impatient with this conversation and I'm treating you like a child.

• 25:51Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  When really you're coming to me for help, but because their inability to kind of complete their sentences or know their thoughts is totally what should be happening at their age.

• 25:58Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  But I'm coming at it as a lens as an adult. So I can't imagine being able to sexualize somebody that you know is still so early in their development of, uh, intelligence. And I'll get men who will come to me and say, oh, my ex-wife was a narcissist. She was so terrible. Um, I want you to kind of work with my daughter. I want, I don't want her to grow up like her, her mom. Uh, please work with my daughter. And I'll work with their daughter and she'll be like a sixteen year old. And she says, my dad is currently dating a twenty one year old and he's fifty six. And that's making me uncomfortable. So they, they somehow have not taken any accountability for the selection process.

• 26:30Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  They still have that poor selection and then wonder why the women that they're selecting are becoming narcissistic. It's because they can see that you desire only one trait of them and you don't genuinely care about them. You only care about what they add to your status.

• 26:43Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  So as a woman, she should exploit you because you're exploiting her. So she should financially exploit you, but they want her to be dedicated to him while he is utilizing her for his own status and gain. So I just think if you're a nineteen year old using and abusing a forty four year old, good for you because he's he's doing the same to you. But yeah, but he thinks he's sincere and genuine.

• 27:02Mark Manson?

  It's funny, like, so, you know, in the in the past, when this topic has come up, I've gotten a lot of flack from other men who are like, you know, I don't know.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  They think we're jealous.

• 27:13Mark Manson?

  Yeah, they're like, oh, Mark's such a beta, you know, like, he doesn't get it. But it's it's funny because I I used to think that way.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:23Mark Manson?

  And then I did enough work on my myself emotionally and mentally to when I stopped thinking that way. And what these guys don't understand is that when you stop thinking that way, it frees you.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:37Mark Manson?

  To such an extent, like, it is a prison to see fifty percent of the population as as vaginas.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:44Mark Manson?

  It's a fucking prison.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Prison.

• 27:46Mark Manson?

  You are you are imprisoned by your dick.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:49Mark Manson?

  And you are captured and like being forced into relationships that are not making you happy over and over and over again.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Awful.

• 27:58Mark Manson?

  And there's, for some reason, some men just don't see that. They're like so captured. They have like Stockholm syndrome to their cock. Like, they're just like, no, this is this is what Dick says to do, so Dick makes me happy. And like, it doesn't, it doesn't make you happy.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  And I really realized it when I realized that there's a thing called like glory holes where people go into and they go into places.

• 28:19Mark Manson?

  Did you just find out?

• 28:20Speaker 02

  I just.

• 28:21Mark Manson?

  Wait a second.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  I discovered this two weeks ago because of the comedian talking about it on TikTok.

• 28:26Mark Manson?

  Oh, bless you, child.

• 28:29Speaker 02

  I genuinely thought he was joking. I thought it was part of a skit.

• 28:32Mark Manson?

  You haven't met enough men.

• 28:33Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  And and and then somebody told me, no, it's a real thing. You put your penis in a hole and anyone can. And I just thought, imagine being that much of a slave to your impulses, that that much of a slave, that you are willing to risk it all. That could be a man, woman, child, anyone behind the screen, but you're that much of a slave to your impulses. And I just thought, oh, my goodness, I know I'm really late to the party, but that's a normal thing.

• 28:56Mark Manson?

  The glory hole party.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Is that a normal thing? I I know I do, that was a thing.

• 29:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah, it is a thing. It is. It is a thing. I I do think the the part of the excitement around the glory hole is that you don't know what's on the other side.

• 29:10Speaker 02

  Oh, I can't think of it.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Is that, oh, okay, so I'm seeing it in the, what I'm describing is actually what they actually like about it.

• 29:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:19Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, got it. Goodness me. So do you know, if you really get into a man's mind, is it really that primitive when it comes to how they see women on a fundamental level?

• 29:29Mark Manson?

  No, no, it's not an all or nothing thing. Uh, I think it's, I mean, look, it's when you get into sexual arousal.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:40Mark Manson?

  Like, we're animals. And so there's, there's some, like, very base, primitive stuff that happens post-sexual arousal. I think, but just because something can potentially happen post-sexual arousal doesn't mean that that's what you always think or feel. Like, this is something that's, that's actually, uh, if you ever look into, like, you don't know what glory holes are. So if you ever decide to get into BDSM, uh, what you'll discover is, is that, uh, but they talk about this a lot. That, you know, just because you are into something during sex doesn't mean that you are that way outside of sex. So like, if you're a masochist and you like to be dominated during sex, that doesn't give the person the permission to dominate you outside of sex. Like, they're two different realms.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  So separate the realms.

• 30:26Mark Manson?

  Because, and it really, it really is. Like, people, people get into things, you know, it activates, like, kind of the most animalistic part of your brain. And so there, there's stuff down there that, that kicks in. And I, I imagine most men relate to this, that afterwards you're like, oh my God, I can't believe I did.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:46Mark Manson?

  Drew, tell us more.

• 30:48Speaker 03

  Actually, I'd like to get off glory hole and BDSM real quick.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Please do.

• 30:53Speaker 03

  To your point.

• 30:55Mark Manson?

  Yeah, what were we talking about?

• 30:57Speaker 03

  Like, the over-sexualizing.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, the over-sexualizing, that's my point. And I would imagine the use of pornography and the availability would just activate that side of their brain so much.

• 31:07Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:07Mark Manson?

  Hundred percent. A hundred percent.

• 31:09Speaker 03

  And the dating apps too, social media at all feeds into that. Pornography is a big one too. I'm, I'm a weirdo. I don't know. I don't use dating apps. I'm pretty much off social media. I don't use porn.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:19Speaker 03

  And so.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Amazing, you don't use porn?

• 31:21Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:21Speaker 02

  I'm so happy for you.

• 31:23Mark Manson?

  Drew is, uh.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  He's a gem.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  What I've found though from that is

• 31:27Mark Manson?

  Most eligible bachelor in podcasts.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:30Speaker 03

  I'm convinced at this point that Mark started this podcast just to get me a girlfriend.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Well, you should. You deserve. Like, you deserve a good woman.

• 31:36Mark Manson?

  Yes, ladies.

• 31:37Speaker 02

  You deserve a good woman.

• 31:38Mark Manson?

  So many of your applications.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  I'm gonna look.

• 31:42Speaker 03

  What I've noticed from that, though, and I don't know, it's kind of all three of those things, dating apps, porn, social media.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:50Speaker 03

  I now have gotten, that little voice you were talking about, that men have this, oh, I want to be a higher status man in the eyes of other men even too.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  I just don't give a shit anymore.

• 32:00Speaker 02

  Great.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Really. Maybe that's part of that's probably getting older as well.

• 32:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  But I've just noticed that I have a far greater need for connection with somebody now before I'm even remotely attracted to them. So yeah, like younger women, it's not, I can't have a conversation with you.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  And I get a lot of hate because people are always like, oh, you're just jealous. I'm really not jealous. I'm very happy in my relationship. And if my husband did leave me for a 19 year old, it wouldn't make me jealous of the 19 year old. It'd make me look at him in a different way.

• 32:27Mark Manson?

  And be like, what the hell, dude?

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. What's going on in your life? This is what you've decided to do. So it's nothing in that sense. It's just more of a sense of what men think when they walk into a room with a woman that's 20 years younger and smoking hot while they're not. They think, everyone's thinking, wow. But what we're really thinking is, how are you stupid enough to not realize why she's here?

• 32:48Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  We're not thinking, wow, you're so cool. We're thinking, wow, you're really rich. Other women might look at you thinking, okay, I can also use and abuse him. And other men are looking at you like, oh, you're probably really enjoying it. But how much is she? How much is she? And they're probably thinking they have a chance. So you devalue your status, if anything, rather than enhance it. But they've got, because the outward statements would be like, wow, she's super hot. They're looking for those outward statements rather than the internal dialogue people are having about them.

• 33:12Mark Manson?

  Well, and you raise an interesting point, which is that, which is the perception of other men.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:17Mark Manson?

  Right? Because a lot of these men who say like, no, you don't get it. You're just jealous or whatever.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:21Mark Manson?

  Part of that is that all the men that they hang out with think the same way as them.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  That's what it is, yeah.

• 33:27Mark Manson?

  They don't realize that the majority of the male population thinks that's immature and stupid. Why would you ever do that? But the reason they're not exposed to us is because it's like, and this has happened many times where I have met a guy who is very impressive professionally, seems very intelligent, has a lot of interesting things to say, and he's like, Bringing escorts around or dating a girl who's like less than half his age. And I lose all respect for him. Because it says so much about his character and his self-control and his composure and what he values in life. And it just makes me realize, I'm like, okay, this is not a serious person.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  And also the emotional intelligence, I can't imagine a man feeling, I don't know how he has to block out that part of his brain. Where he doesn't care if she enjoys it, if she wants it, if she's lubricated, none of that, none of that matters as long as he's achieved his goal. Wouldn't part of the enjoyment of the sexual intercourse be the fact that she wants you and she's so aroused by you? But having to buy her arousal just seems that you are almost compensating her for this bad experience she's about to have. So it's indicative of how poor you think your performance is. That's how I as a woman sees it. We see you must be terrible at this and that's why you have to compensate women for their time and for being with you.

• 34:39Mark Manson?

  But I think part of that is it comes back to the power thing.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Power.

• 34:42Mark Manson?

  Because it's what arouses them is kind of the fact that it doesn't matter if she's into it.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Oh, wow. Men are disgusting. Sorry. You guys are so weird.

• 34:53Mark Manson?

  We are turning to Saudi against me. She's like, I don't want to coach these guys anymore.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  I think I've just been so naive a little bit with this area of like, because my advice initially was very, I'm a very traditional woman and I come from a Muslim background. So my advice was always like, what's the problem? You can have a great guy, you know, you'd be loyal to him and faithful and just be good to his family. Like, what's the problem? It's easy to get a man. As I've been working with more and more men, I realized that the underlying trait is none of that matters until you sleep with them in a way that they like. And that's what I realized and that's why.

• 35:26Mark Manson?

  Sometimes.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Sometimes, yeah. Or he has a low sex drive, in which case then you're great. Yeah, then you've got nothing to worry about. But if he has a high sex drive and you're doing all of those things without access to you, it doesn't actually, yeah, it doesn't actually matter as much.

• 35:39Mark Manson?

  It also depends on the man, the man, it also depends on his maturity level and his, you know, it's just.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  So there's a lot of components.

• 35:46Mark Manson?

  I have a high sex drive. When I was younger, I didn't really know how to manage that.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:51Mark Manson?

  And I think I let it manage me.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:53Mark Manson?

  And as I got older, I learned how to manage it.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 35:56Mark Manson?

  And you know, now I'm married and it's. I just, I manage it. Like, it's, it's just, it's not a problem anymore. Like, at a certain point, as a man, I think most men have to make this decision. Just like, you can't keep prioritizing it. Like, you're, you're just not gonna build a good, stable, interesting life for yourself.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  It just can't be a priority forever.

• 36:17Mark Manson?

  If you're following your dick around everywhere. Like, it just, it's not a sustainable life strategy. So at some point, you just have to decide, like, you know what? Sex just needs to matter less than it used to.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 36:27Mark Manson?

  And that's fine.

• 36:27Speaker 03

  There's a lot of compartmentalization, too, that men do. Like, you've kind of already mentioned that as well. And I think that's how they can separate a lot of those areas. And for whatever reason, I'm not sure how that works out developmentally or whatever, or if something has happened to them, or they're just, how they were raised, I don't know. But I think men are just really good at compartmentalizing this part of their lives.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  That's true. That's very true.

• 36:50Mark Manson?

  And, and a lot of the, the inability to empathize, to connect emotionally, the, to humanize with women is directly proportional to the objectification of themselves. Like, this is something I used to write about, and like, men, like, I used to try to explain to men. I was like, objectifying women is bad, but it's not just bad because it's bad for the women. It's bad for you. When you see women as, as status objects, you, you aren't just hurting them, you're hurting yourself because you are basing your entire emotional life around status objects, around, around collecting trophies and achievements.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  That's a very great point.

• 37:31Mark Manson?

  To impress your guy friends, who honestly don't really give a shit because they're emotionally stunted as well. So it's just a bad game to be playing.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're objectifying themselves, usually financially as well. That they, they really are just a financial component. So they're, they're volunteering for that objectification. Both parties are in those circumstances.

• 37:48Mark Manson?

  Yeah. What is the biggest piece of women's dating advice that is wrong, in your opinion?

• 37:54Speaker 02

  But in terms of the worst piece of advice that women are getting is the narcissistic movement. The movement about how every person you've disagreed with ever in your life is a narcissist. Whether that's your mom, your dad, or your expert partner, everybody's a narcissist and they use these bad words like gaslighting, breadcrumbing. All of this stuff. So it is the worst piece of advice women have got to. And I rea- the reason I say that is. You ev- nine times out of ten, when somebody's come to me and said so and so is a narcissist, they are a narcissist themselves. They have a narcissistic desire to be a victim in every situation. They have a narcissistic desire to avoid any accountability. And they have a narcissistic uh desire for excessive sympathy from the people around them. And so the people who claim that they're victims of narcissists are usually the narcissists themselves. They're just in reverse. They like to be a victim.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  Um, real people who've been abused by narcissists will come to me and say, how do I get better? Because my husband says I'm too fat. My husband, they're actually trying to please the narcissist. They're so brainwashed by the narcissist. That they think they have done nothing right in this relationship. They're awful and they need to improve. But if you're in the end where you're posting memes about narcissists, you you haven't been through narcissistic abuse. You've just been in a bad relationship.

• 39:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Which both of you have contributed to equally, I would say. So I think that movement has been really damaging for women.

• 39:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:07Mark Manson?

  I could see that.

• 39:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:08Mark Manson?

  It's funny, there's a, there's a quote that I love from David Foster Wallace. He says that. Evil people don't believe that they're evil. They believe everyone else is evil.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:16Mark Manson?

  I think you could replace evil with narcissist.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:18Mark Manson?

  Narcissists don't believe they're narcissists. They believe everyone else is a narcissist.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Exactly that. And it just sets them up for so much failure. There's so much lack of accountability. There's so much digging into like trying to diagnose this person. Rather than how did I get to this state? How did I choose this person? Why have I chosen this person? And how do I improve and make sure I don't do it again? Instead, they just want to speak to a therapist that will tell them, you are a victim. You have totally chosen badly. You did nothing wrong. How can I cushion you to feel better? And that will be a thousand dollars, please. That's what they wanna hear. Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  What would you say is the worst piece of advice that women are getting?

• 39:53Mark Manson?

  That women are getting?

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:55Mark Manson?

  I don't know, I'm I'm I'm kind of out of this world at the moment, but like it it I don't keep up with the dating advice world as as much as I used to. But I generally, as a rule, I feel like the the dating advice for women is over reliant on protecting their feelings.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:10Mark Manson?

  And I this kind of relates to the narcissism thing, like it's like they shouldn't tolerate anything that upsets them. They shouldn't tolerate, you know, they deserve to feel good and happy and cherished and feel like a queen and all this stuff all the time. That's unrealistic, that's not really looking for a partner, that's looking for like a parent.

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:27Mark Manson?

  That's gonna pamper them and baby them. And so I I find a lot of that vein of female dating advice. I mean, it it's tricky because I think women have a tendency to, women have a little bit more of a tendency to try to fix a broken relationship. Like for too long, they tend to stay in bad relationships for too long, I think more than men do. So I understand like trying to coach women to have better standards for themselves and have higher expectations for those. I think that overall is a good thing, but I I just think maybe the way it's communicated by being over like it should be. The language should be revolve around things like respect and trust and shared values and boundaries. It shouldn't be about, well, you deserve to feel like a princess.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:11Mark Manson?

  And you should be treated like a princess.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it should be mutual trust and mutual skills rather than just entitlement.

• 41:17Mark Manson?

  And by the way, sometimes mutual trust and mutual like shared values, like sometimes that's it's uncomfortable.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:23Mark Manson?

  You know, it's it's.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Because I I got hate for saying that, like men, because women in this dating world, liking another woman's picture is a real big like issue for women, which I completely understand. As a woman myself, I know what it feels like. So liking pictures is a real problem, but then they see nothing wrong in posting provocative pictures. And they think the male, they don't see that as a female equivalent. It's the female equivalent. If a man's liking a bunch of bikini pictures and you're posting, it's the male and female equivalent, but they see it as, no, I can do whatever I want, but don't do that because that hurts my feelings. And so it's that they're almost breeding the narcissism in the women by overprotecting their feelings and how they feel. And if they feel it, it must be true.

• 42:00Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  And that's the mentality that's put in there. Drew, as somebody who's dating and stuff, is it difficult with women at the moment? What do you notice is some of the advice that has encapsulated their brains?

• 42:09Speaker 03

  I don't know if it's difficult. Again, I've slowed way down, which has helped a lot. I think there are a lot of just unrealistic expectations right now, for sure. And I'll throw on top of that, like, the paradox of choice that we have at the moment. That's what's making it difficult as well. And I, but I think you're right. It is, it's just, they talk about the battle of the sexes, right? We've set up a war that just can't be won.

• 42:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  We have this tit for tat going on that, that we're explaining.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Race to the bottom.

• 42:37Speaker 03

  This is a weird moment we're in where it's all scaled with technology and it's, yeah, we just, it's a race to the bottom.

• 42:44Mark Manson?

  I, you just said the, kind of the curse of high expectations. When I think about all of my friends, male and female, who are still single and don't want to be, almost across the board unanimously, almost. There are a couple of exceptions, but almost all of them. It's, I, it's a curse of high expectations.

• 43:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:03Mark Manson?

  Like, they just have this checklist that is completely unreasonable in their brain.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  And especially when they can't meet their own expectations.

• 43:10Mark Manson?

  Right.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  They're looking for somebody above them in almost every trait, and then they think they're single. Because I always say to them, when somebody comes to me and they're perpetually single, it's either that they don't love themselves enough and they keep going to the wrong people and just settling for too little and then eventually being too abused and have to leave. Or more often than not, they have this excessive self-love where they think they deserve so much better than what they offer. Men and women, both of them deserve so much better than what they offer, but simply because they've seen other people access it or they've seen it online. So they're waiting for their moment to access this, but they're not realizing if they're actually worthy of that. So if you have found yourself single for too long, make sure that you don't have a delusion of what your value is.

• 43:49Mark Manson?

  I, I think some of it too is that a lot of useful and traditional advice that exists in, say, productivity or personal development has bled over into relationships and it doesn't apply. Like, I think if you look at people, especially the highly ambitious people, people who start businesses, like, you know, there's a lot of advice of, you know, that essentially boils down to the harder you try, the better it's gonna get.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  And believe in yourself, kind of mentality.

• 44:13Mark Manson?

  Whereas in a relationship, that's not true. You know, it's more like have, you know, have higher expectations because you'll perform better, like shoot for the moon, all this stuff. Like, it, in relationships, it doesn't translate one to one. You know, I have a good friend of mine who is in his early 40s and he's a really good guy and he like genuinely wants to settle down and meet his wife. I was talking to him, this was like a year or two ago, and he was just, he was really frustrated and I was like, okay. List out like what are all of the non-negotiables that you need to have in a partner? And he started listing out all these things, you know, she needs to be smart, she needs to be beautiful, she needs to love to travel, she needs to. And it just went on and on and on. And like he ended up with like a list of like eight or nine. Pretty difficult things to find.

• 44:57Mark Manson?

  And I looked at him, I'm like, okay, now cross out half of these. And he couldn't do it. And I was like, that's why you're single.

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:04Mark Manson?

  That's why you're single.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  And it's not that we're saying you need to settle, we're just saying just be realistic. That's all it is. They they see realism as a form of settle is settling when it's simply not the case. It's just be realistic. And as long as the treatment part of things is never mentioned in the checklist. It's never that I want somebody who checks in quite a lot when I'm away, or somebody who is able to label the relationship quite early, somebody who communicates well. It's always just more aesthetic.

• 45:30Mark Manson?

  It's traits. It's the settling thing is a really interesting topic because I feel like that's become a dirty word. Yeah. In our generation. And I understand that, again, maybe it kind of comes from the productivity mindset of like, you don't want to settle for what's like not optimal. Like you've got this idea of like what the perfect person would be, and you don't want to stop short of achieving that goal. Because in other areas of your life, that's a bad thing to do. But in relationships, it actually works the other way around because. What you realize is that it's it's actually in the acceptance of your partner's flaws. That you find most of the intimacy.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:08Mark Manson?

  That you unlock the closeness, that that it's seeing the shortcomings and loving them anyway.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:15Mark Manson?

  Like even just saying that it like probably sounds like a bad thing.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  It's not truly love if you haven't had to compromise on anything.

• 46:22Mark Manson?

  Exactly.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you've got perfection, it's not truly love. Love is when you can fight through the imperfections and kind of go against what you thought you wouldn't accept. In order to be with this person because this person's so valuable.

• 46:32Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I'll sometimes have women in their late 30s and they'll say, I don't want to date a man with kids. And I just say, look, realistically, if you want to be a mother and stuff, realistically, you're not going to find someone with no kids whatsoever. And if you do find that, it puts a lot of pressure on your body. What if you can't have it? And then you're doing rounds of IVF and stuff. If they already have children, your mind could be like, perfect. At least if I have any problems, I don't deprive them of being a father. But I also get a child in the process. And then whatever happens, happens. It's not settling, it's adapting. But it's the refusal to adapt, which they see as settling that gets them right.

• 47:06Mark Manson?

  And it comes back to narcissism.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  Narcissism.

• 47:08Mark Manson?

  It's like, why should I?

• 47:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:09Mark Manson?

  Give anything up? Why should I change myself? You know, they should change for me.

• 47:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:15Mark Manson?

  Yeah. What do you see as the relationship between self-esteem and relationships?

• 47:22Speaker 02

  So without self-esteem, not only will you not be able to receive love, but you don't give it correctly. The thing is, like, people with low self-esteem tend not to receive love very well. We know that. But they also don't give it very well. And the reason why they don't give it is their love is coming from an empty hole in them. So they'll give love to the person that can fill that hole. If they are somebody who is not financially stable, they'll love the person who financially stabilizes them. If they're not somebody who's attractive, they'll love the person that makes them feel attractive. If they're somebody who's not confident in their sexual skills, they'll attach to the person who makes them feel like they are. They're coming from a place of egoism. And as a result, when that person stops feeding that egoism, their low self-esteem is not enough to keep them happy. So they lash out. So it's very difficult to form any kind of long lasting relationship.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  And I've learned this the hard way myself, without self-esteem, because you accept the unacceptable and you seek sometimes the unacceptable. And you can't maintain relationships because you don't have the source of self-love to maintain it. Yeah.

• 48:16Mark Manson?

  I feel like it's also where the power struggles kick in. Because then you start seeing relationships in terms of conditions of like, what are you doing for me? You know, oh, I'm here because you were making me feel this way. But now you stop making me feel this way. So I'm going to do this thing to hurt you. So you do the thing to make me feel good again. And you get this tit for tat going. And it just spirals out of control.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  But one thing I'm even interested in myself, I always wonder, how do you know that you've reached a relationship with high self-esteem? How do you know that it's actually high self-esteem? And I only realized that even myself, when I felt like I completely love my partner, but I have a willingness to walk away if the, if things were, if I was extremely disrespectful. Or things were wrong. I think maybe previously I would have just clung on for dear life.

• 49:02Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Uh, or left very easily regardless. So there's a willingness to fight, but there's also a willingness to leave if need be. And it's finding that balance. I think I used to tip over too much on the willingness to walk away. Or tip off on too much on the willingness to stay regardless of treatment. And only when you have that balance that I feel, you never know, but I feel more confident. Uh, but I don't know the exact measure of how you know your self-esteem is right.

• 49:23Mark Manson?

  My intuition is going towards, it it's one of those like, if you have to ask, then it's probably not there.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 49:30Mark Manson?

  You know, I I think about really insecure relationships that I was in in the past. There was kind of this constant questioning of our status.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 49:39Mark Manson?

  Are we good? Is she happy?

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:41Mark Manson?

  Am I happy? Is she getting what she wants? Am I getting like?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  There's a curiosity.

• 49:45Mark Manson?

  You're constantly wondering and stressing over all these existential questions within the relationship. And I just know like within my wife, it it's there's like peace. There's just, the questions don't even come up.

• 49:58Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 49:58Mark Manson?

  Because there's no need to ask them.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:01Mark Manson?

  It's just things are good. I think that's another aspect that. An optimal relationship is actually when nothing needs to be optimized.

• 50:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:10Mark Manson?

  It's just, there's no questions even arise because both people are just comfortable and happy.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm sorry to ask, but how do we know then there's a difference between that there's peace or there's denial? Yeah, because uh, sometimes some men will come to me and say, we have a great relationship. Some men will be like thrown off guard. They're like, we had a great relationship. Our sex life was great. There was nothing wrong. And I found out she was having an affair the whole time.

• 50:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  So how do, but what I'm guessing is there was some element of denial to keep the peace. So I would say that the peace, uh, as you described, definitely a relationship that required the peace, but the peace is not achieved by you suppressing. What your actual thoughts and desires are. The pieces is achieved because there's a synchrony in what you both desire.

• 50:49Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 50:50Speaker 03

  And is the peace achieves through, this is bumping up against boundaries, which you know that you're both real big on.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:56Speaker 03

  Like Mark, if you want to get to that point in your relationship where you are at that level of peace, I think you have to get there through a series of boundaries and enforcing them.

• 51:04Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 51:04Speaker 03

  Right? You've talked before, Saudi, about boundaries and that they're kind of the instructions for teaching people how to love you.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  Can you talk more about that, I guess?

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, the thing is, and I've been guilty of this myself, people feel like they have a strength to them if they can just cut people off instantly and they're like, you broke my boundaries, I cut them off and they feel so strong about that. But that's actually a signal of weakness. The real strength of boundaries comes with your willingness to teach people how to truly love you, not play mind games. So what I mean by this is if you're somebody who doesn't appreciate your partner leaving you for weeks on end to go travel, you simply, it's not that you hold them by the throat and say, you've got to do this, you've got to do that. It's more just a case of, I like us to be more connected. So this is what I value in a relationship. If you would, if that's something that you're compatible with or you can work towards perfect, if not, then I wish you the best, but it's not necessarily ideal for our relationship. But you're working towards a compromise rather than just cutting people off immediately.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  Boundaries, I always say, is a bit like when you're ordering in a restaurant. If they ask you, what are your allergies? You have to tell them, you have to tell them what your allergies are. And if they don't have anything that caters to you, don't scream at the waitress, you simply go to another restaurant. Where people get it wrong is that they think, this is my boundaries, you have to listen to me, I don't want you going out, I don't want you to do this. But they keep enforcing them, getting more and more toxic, instead of thinking, well, if this person doesn't want to change, I should just leave. The boundaries, the end goal is with me, not with the person changing. So it's a very tricky one, but it's one that if you can just set them early, you'll filter out the wrong people anyway and throughout the relationship, you'll be in line with each other's boundaries.

• 52:36Mark Manson?

  Yeah. I'm still thinking about that question about the guy who thought everything was great.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Naive, yeah, the denial rather than peace.

• 52:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah, my first relationship was like that. I was completely oblivious.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:46Mark Manson?

  But I think-

• 52:47Speaker 02

  But in your mind, was it peaceful, the relationship?

• 52:49Mark Manson?

  So here's the funny thing.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:51Mark Manson?

  It was not peaceful. She and I fought all the time.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:54Mark Manson?

  But in my head, that was normal.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 52:56Mark Manson?

  That was okay, that's just what relationships do. And so it never occurred to me that, so I think part of it is just a poor definition of like what a good relationship is. So you can, if, if, you can be sitting in a pool of shit, but like if, if your understanding of relationships is that they're all pools of shit, then you're like, this is fine.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:17Mark Manson?

  Yeah. Whereas- I also think too that, you know, some of it comes down to communication. I could see there being a case where it's like, maybe he was happy. Maybe, maybe the relationship had been kind of, she had been catering to him for a long time. And so in his head, he's like, this is great. The relationship's great. I'm happy, she's happy. And either she didn't communicate that she was unhappy to him, which then it's a communication breakdown, or she tried to communicate to him, but he just shut it down and wouldn't listen or didn't respect what she was saying. What's coming up to me, as I think about this, is that there is a process within the relationship of, I guess, constructive, critical conversations.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Peace is not achieved through suppressing what you actually need to talk about.

• 54:05Mark Manson?

  You earn it through difficult conversations.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:08Mark Manson?

  Through uncomfortable conversations. And I think one thing that, my wife and I, we were always good at it together, but I think we've gotten excellent at it over the years, is, is having those difficult conversations and remaining non-judgmental and not taking things too personally.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  Did you ever have fiery fights with this particular, with your wife or not so much? Is she just got that nature?

• 54:27Mark Manson?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  She's got that nature.

• 54:29Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Cause I, cause I have a fiery nature as well.

• 54:33Mark Manson?

  Yeah, yeah. I, I never wonder what she's feeling.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  So because then I always sometimes wonder, am I like, cause I don't, my, my partner would definitely say that it's not easy being with somebody who is so opinionated and so, so I don't know, like, I don't know if he would describe me as a peaceful person, but he knows how to create peace in our relationship.

• 54:54Mark Manson?

  Well, the funny thing is, is that you're, you adapt to each other.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:58Mark Manson?

  Right? So when, when I first started dating my wife, she was extremely fiery and emotional and very expressive and, and it was, sometimes it was a lot. Sometimes I was like, oh my God, there's. This is I would feel overwhelmed. But as the years have gone on, I've just gotten accustomed to it. And I've learned how to read. You know, it used to be, you know, maybe she would seem very upset about something. But it turned out that it was actually a minor thing and she's just Brazilian.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 55:29Mark Manson?

  And so it sounds extremely.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  That's what I can explain to my part.

• 55:31Mark Manson?

  To my white boy brain, it sounds extremely upset. And but now it's like I've calibrated to her. And so I can see now if she's kind of, you know, yelling about something. I can I can actually see if it's if it's actually a problem or if she's just temporarily.

• 55:45Speaker 02

  And it usually passes. It's just for women, and I sympathize because I have a similar nature. It is just a simple vetting process, like just venting out. And it will calm down. Where men sometimes get it wrong is they overreact to our reaction. When really, you're just gonna let it slide down and it will come back to normal. And then you'll see that she's back to normal again.

• 56:05Mark Manson?

  This gets back to the the value of just long term intimacy and commitment. There is a joy in that. And I think the same way people have, you know, different communication styles. People have different emotional styles. People have different emotional backgrounds. You just learn each other over a long period of time. Like you learn to read each other and understand what each other are thinking and feeling in any given moment. And I I've just discovered like there's a real joy. And to come back to the word peace of developing that with somebody over the course of a decade. That you can't recreate that in any other way. And you know, it's one of those things that if I could go talk, go back and talk to 20 year old Mark.

• 56:50Mark Manson?

  You know, I'd like take him by the shoulders and and explain that to him. Like, you know, this, the novelty and the thrill that you're seeking in in this like large variety of romantic experiences. Actually, the biggest thrill and the big, the most uniqueness is going deep on one romantic experience.

• 57:09Speaker 02

  And what would you say to men whose main worry is going deep into one is that you might lose the sexual interest?

• 57:16Mark Manson?

  Deprioritize sex.

• 57:18Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 57:18Mark Manson?

  Like, do you just want to live? Lived by the code of the dick for the rest of your life.

• 57:24Speaker 02

  Thank you. This is so refreshing.

• 57:26Mark Manson?

  There are some things that are more important in life.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  God, I swear, this is so, because I'm dealing with clients where they really prioritize that and they will leave wife after wife and woman after woman. I've got, mentally I was getting a bit jaded thinking this is just how men think now, but you just simply have to deprioritize it.

• 57:43Mark Manson?

  You have to realize that just by the act of being in this profession, you are self-selecting.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, very skewed.

• 57:50Mark Manson?

  For a certain population.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  And even, even the people who watch my content is self-selection of people who may be going through it. So I still have a very warped perception of the world from it.

• 57:59Mark Manson?

  Absolutely. And, and to come back to the maturity point, like I, I do think it is, sexuality is very, very tied to young men's self-esteem. Like it just, there's something about it that young men, as they kind of discover their sexuality, it's a huge deal to you. And it, and it's really just figuring your sexuality out, figuring out your dating opportunities, figuring out. A lot of it's probably tied to kind of figuring out where you are in the status hierarchy, you know, it's, it is a big deal to young men, but the point is to mature past it.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:36Mark Manson?

  And not be beholden to it for the rest of your life. If you're in your thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and you're still obsessing over this stuff.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  Then you're stuck at sixteen.

• 58:45Mark Manson?

  You're stuck back at sixteen or twenty and that's, that's not appropriate. So, so I would say, I imagine a lot of your audience is younger men. Like it's, if you're an eighteen or twenty year old man, yeah, you probably should be kind of obsessing over sex and girls and, you know, does she like you? Does she not like you? Why doesn't she like you? Like those are normal things to obsess about at that age. But the goal is to, is to move past it at some point.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the goal. Perfect. Good to hear that.

• 59:14Mark Manson?

  There are.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  There are normal people.

• 59:16Mark Manson?

  There is sanity in the world in Saudi. There is, I promise. You must look hard. You must look hard, yes.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  I just have a very warped perception. Sometimes I get really jaded and I say, and then I have to remind myself, my, do you know why I have this perception? It's because before I was online and before I started doing therapy more and more, I, the friends I had were always, because I had male friends, it was men who were comfortable around women, and men who were comfortable rejecting women, and men who had really great relationships with women.

• 59:42Mark Manson?

  Yeah.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  So I just assumed all men have that mentality. It's only when I got into this world that I realized for a lot of men, they are suffering when it comes to this. They don't have access to women, and they don't have that experience of saying no to women, and they've never experienced being able to walk into a room and get the girl you had your eye on. So then I, I guess I was unaware of the impact that has on their entire psychology.

• 1:00:02Mark Manson?

  Yes.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  And that's what I've learnt more and more, yeah.

• 1:00:05Mark Manson?

  I think the same way women are judged quite a bit by their appearance.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:10Mark Manson?

  Uh, I think men are judged quite a bit by their charisma or lack of charisma.

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:16Mark Manson?

  By their ability to at least have potential partners.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Mark Manson?

  And it's, and I think that is ultimately is what, you know, when you see that fifty-five-year-old man walking in with a twenty-year-old escort, that's what that is, is that he, he still has that insecurity.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:33Mark Manson?

  And he's still trying, there's some voice in his, in his head that he's still trying to prove wrong.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Mark Manson?

  Still trying to say, no, I am the cool guy, I promise. I'm the cool kid at school, I promise. Look how hot she is.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:44Mark Manson?

  And um, it, it, it's.

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  It is that.

• 1:00:46Mark Manson?

  It's really hard, you know, especially if you, if you go through a lot of really negative experiences when you're young, it's, it's really hard.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  It's really hard, yeah. So I know it sounds critical, but I'm actually trying to understand them a bit more. And I'm trying to understand where they're coming from. So it's good to hear that they do, they can deprioritize it if they've had the right level of love shown to them.

• 1:01:06Mark Manson?

  Yeah, and I will say too, my experience when, when I worked in that industry as well, is that the majority of men would come to me, uh.

• 1:01:16Mark Manson?

  Wanting a lot of sexual partners. They would learn some social skills, maybe dress a little bit better. Develop a little bit of confidence. They'd get a couple of sexual partners, but within a year, they've settled down with a girlfriend and that's actually what they wanted all along.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, they wanted, completely.

• 1:01:32Mark Manson?

  I would say seventy-five, eighty percent of the time that was the case. It was really only kind of a loud minority of men who developed this fixation.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  I would imagine they would be porn addicts.

• 1:01:43Mark Manson?

  Today, probably.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and today as well, they would be the ones that are addicted to pornography.

• 1:01:47Mark Manson?

  Hundred percent, for sure.

• 1:01:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, it makes them addicted to novelty and inability to build connections, so, yeah.

• 1:01:54Mark Manson?

  Yeah. In glory holes.

• 1:01:58Speaker 02

  Good, I just, not to be personal, but would you ever try something like that?

• 1:02:02Mark Manson?

  Fuck no.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  Oh my god, oh my god. Yeah, how scary is that?

• 1:02:07Mark Manson?

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  To each their own, to each their own.

• 1:02:12Mark Manson?

  I am an open-minded guy, but not that open.

• 1:02:17Mark Manson?

  Amazing. Sadia. Sadia.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  However you like.

• 1:02:21Mark Manson?

  However. Miss Khan.

• 1:02:23Speaker 02

  Miss Khan, I like that.

• 1:02:25Mark Manson?

  It's been a pleasure.

• 1:02:26Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 1:02:27Mark Manson?

  So great having you out here. And thank you, Drew. Yes, thank you. For representing the single man. Yeah. The single man. I don't know if we got anywhere with me.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  No, you were.

• 1:02:36Mark Manson?

  No, we're gonna, the applications are open, ladies. Drew Bernie, the most eligible podcaster.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Thank you guys again for having me. I really appreciate you guys.

• 1:02:47Mark Manson?

  Thank you.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.