Pod Insights The Ezra Klein Show Mamdani, Trump and the End of the Old Politics About this episode Zohran Mamdani created a new anti-establishment playbook – in his use of social video, his focus on affordability and his position on Israel.
His assumed victory in New York City’s Democratic mayoral primary, trouncing the former governor Andrew Cuomo, was one of the biggest political upsets in years. And while the electorate in this case is pretty specific, I think it still points to some tectonic changes in Democratic politics.
My friend Chris Hayes, the host of MSNBC’s “All In With Chris Hayes,” came on the show earlier this year to talk about his book “The Sirens’ Call,” which is all about how social media and the new attention economy are shaping politics. So I wanted to bring him back for a sequel, to get “The Sirens’ Call” take on Mamdani’s victory, and Hayes’s insights as a born-and-raised New Yorker, with a deep feel for both the city’s politics and the broader Democratic Party.
This episode contains strong language.
Book Recommendations:
The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco
Tomorrow Is Yesterday by Hussein Agha and Robert Malley
Mao's Last Revolution by Roderick MacFarquhar and Michael Schoenhals
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected] .
You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Jan Kobal, Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Transcript 15,565 words · 9 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:31 Ezra Klein? The Democratic primary that just wrapped up in New York was a collision between two very different candidates on almost every level. Ideologically, outsider versus insider, name recognition. But it was also a collision in a way that I think matters for, much beyond New York City politics, of two very different theories of attention. Andrew Cuomo ran a campaign that was based on a tried and true strategy of buying attention. He had this gigantic super PAC with tens of millions of dollars, purchasing all the advertising money can buy, absolutely dominating airwaves with negative ads about Zohran Mamdani.
1:13 Ezra Klein? In his own words, Zohran Mamdani wants to defund the police.
1:18 Speaker 01 Zohran Mamdani is a 33-year-old dangerously inexperienced legislator who's passed just three bills.
1:24 Speaker 02 Zohran Mamdani, a risk New York can't afford. Paid for by Fix the City.
1:29 Ezra Klein? And then you had Mamdani, who was running a campaign on a very different theory of attention, a theory of viral attention. A campaign built on these vertical videos that if you opened Instagram, if you opened TikTok, and you were in any way connected to his ideas or to New York City, this was all you saw.
1:50 Zohran Mamdani? So what's your take? I should be the mayor. New York is suffering from a crisis, and it's called halalflation.
1:56 Speaker 04 Did you know that Andrew Cuomo gutted the pensions of hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers?
2:00 Zohran Mamdani? Mr. Cuomo, and furthermore, the name is Mamdani. M-A-M-D-A-N-I. You should learn how to say it.
2:08 Ezra Klein? Attention works differently now. This is one of the core political theses of this entire podcast. It is laced through so many of these episodes. And you just watched these two incredibly different attentional strategies collide, and Cuomo got flattened. He got flattened. It was not close. There are things you cannot learn about how to win elections in other places from a off-year June Democratic primary in New York City using ranked choice voting. But there are things you can learn about how attention works right now. And that's in a large part the subject of this conversation. Now, I'm not a New Yorker, but I want somebody who is a New Yorker, who has deep roots here, and who really understands political attention.
2:51 Ezra Klein? And so I asked my friend Chris Hayes, an MSNBC anchor and the author of a phenomenal book on attention in politics, The Siren's Call, to join me. As always, my email, [email protected] .
3:15 Ezra Klein? Chris Hayes, welcome back to the show.
3:16 Chris Hayes? It's great to be back.
3:17 Ezra Klein? So Zora Mamdani won the primary.
3:20 Chris Hayes? He sure did.
3:21 Ezra Klein? You just wrote a book about political attention. And this was one of the most attentionally remarkable and innovative campaigns I've seen.
3:29 Chris Hayes? Totally.
3:30 Ezra Klein? So I want to hear the Siren's Call analysis of the Zora Mamdani campaign.
3:34 Chris Hayes? So the first thing I would say about him is he genuinely came from nowhere. I live in New York City and spend between 16 and 20 hours a day reading about and thinking about politics. And like, I knew there was a Democratic Socialist Assemblyman named Zora Mamdani.
3:50 Ezra Klein? Right.
3:50 Chris Hayes? I didn't even know he was running for mayor until he popped up in my Instagram feed or TikTok, right? So at one level, like just to level set here, this is someone who had zero attention on him, who went from having zero attention to him to monopolizing attention in the race. And I think the way he did it was viral videos. It's the first time I've seen a Democratic candidate be totally native to the medium of our time, which is short, vertical video in the algorithmic feed.
4:21 Ezra Klein? I want to play one of them here. This is one of the first times he came across my radar, which was this video he did right after the 2024 election.
4:29 Chris Hayes? Did you get a chance to vote on Tuesday?
4:30 Zohran Mamdani? I didn't vote.
4:31 Chris Hayes? And why did you not vote?
4:33 Ezra Klein? Because I don't believe in the system anymore.
4:35 Zohran Mamdani? And did you get a chance to vote on Tuesday? Yes! And who did you vote for? Trump! Ah, the million dollar question. Trump.
4:42 Ezra Klein? When I voted Donald Trump.
4:43 Zohran Mamdani? Hillside Avenue in Queens and Fordham Road in the Bronx are two areas that saw the biggest shift towards Trump in last week's election. Even more residents didn't vote at all.
4:51 Speaker 06 Also, these people are working families. They're working one to two, three jobs. And rent is expensive. Foods are going up, utility bills are up.
4:59 Zohran Mamdani? And that's your hope, to see a little bit more of an affordable life? Absolutely.
5:03 Ezra Klein? You know, Gaza. Who should I vote? Either side will go ahead, send bombs from here to kill my brothers and sisters.
5:11 Zohran Mamdani? You know, we have a mayor's race coming up next year. And if there was a candidate talking about freezing the rent, making buses free, making universal childcare a reality, are those things that you'd support? Absolutely. He'd have my vote all day.
5:24 Speaker 07 We need childcare that is affordable. Buses should be free. The hike in the MetroCard is like totally unaffordable.
5:32 Zohran Mamdani? My name is Zoram M'Adani. I'm gonna be running for mayor next year. Wow! Yes, yes, sir. And I'm gonna be running on that platform. Thank you.
5:40 Ezra Klein? I'm gonna vote for you. Your energy is...
5:43 Zohran Mamdani? Thank you, thank you.
5:44 Chris Hayes? What struck me about that video when I saw it was so many politicians do communication in terms of what they are telling you. And a lot of what was fascinating about M'Adani's campaign was he turned the act of listening into a form of broadcasting. That's exactly what I found so striking about it. When I first saw the video, I didn't know, until at the end where he's like, "I'm running for mayor," I was like, "Oh." There's two things about it. One is, the whole point is he's listening to people. And two, that is a very recognizable trope of this form of video. The guy on the street, like, the infamous Hak Tua girl, is because there's a guy walking
6:26 Chris Hayes? around Broadway in Nashville, sticking microphones in people's faces. This is an established genre. So he's taking this established genre that has its own kind of like features and is familiar. And then he's doing this really innovative thing. I, as the politician, am not going to speak at you. I'm just gonna put mics in people's faces and ask them questions. It's incredibly effective.
6:48 Ezra Klein? He is the first politician I have seen be native to the thing that is after what I think we think of as social media.
6:57 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
6:57 Ezra Klein? Right. So there are a lot of politicians. Donald Trump is one of them. Bernie Sanders is another, who in a way, they were very dominant on Twitter, on Facebook, on a kind of mostly text-based,
7:10 Chris Hayes? Yep.
7:10 Ezra Klein? high engagement, social sharing era of media. And the thing that's come after it with TikTok on Instagram, you see it now more on X2, is much more algorithmic. Right. You can come out of nowhere much easier. And very visual, vertical video, not primarily text-based. Zorn was not dominant as a figure in like text on X.
7:34 Chris Hayes? No.
7:35 Ezra Klein? It was videos. It was visuals. It was fucking, the graphic design in that campaign was beautiful.
7:40 Chris Hayes? Yeah, there's a great New York Magazine piece about this.
7:43 Ezra Klein? And always in a suit, right? So highly recognizable outfit. I mean, he was very visual. Like, there was an incredibly consistent visual grammar.
7:51 Chris Hayes? Totally.
7:52 Ezra Klein? Right. There are very certain filters on most of his videos. And then when he would do like videos about more intense subjects like ICE, they would take those filters off.
7:59 Chris Hayes? Yes.
7:59 Ezra Klein? Or make a starker one, right? His, I mean, his mother is right, like an amazing filmmaker.
8:06 Chris Hayes? Exactly.
8:06 Ezra Klein? Right. His sense of film and visual grammar was very, very, very strong.
8:12 Chris Hayes? The last time I think I saw something like it would be Howard Dean with Meetup back in 2004, or Barack Obama with Facebook in 2008, right? Like-
8:20 Ezra Klein? Or Trump on Twitter.
8:21 Chris Hayes? Trump on Twitter, yes.
8:22 Ezra Klein? Trump was truly native to what Twitter is.
8:23 Chris Hayes? Yes, you're right. That's a great point.
8:24 Ezra Klein? Conflict, caps loss.
8:25 Chris Hayes? Democratic candidates, candidates. But yes, Donald Trump and Twitter in 2015. And the way that that, his performance on Twitter became the way that people, a lot of people came to know him, right? As a politician. One point I want to make here that I think is important, I think we both agree on is, with all these discussions, there's stuff that's new and there's stuff that's timeless, right? The guy is very charismatic. He is very politically talented. That would be true if he was running in the 1950s. It'd be true. You know, if he was doing whistle stop tours, like, the guy can talk.
8:56 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
8:56 Chris Hayes? He is a very talented communicator. So I don't want to overstate the degree to which the medium is determinative. You could make short form videos and they wouldn't work as well unless you, he's got riz. Like, he just does. The thing that's so wild about it, though, is that there's a perfect pairing between that charisma, that way of communicating with the form that he used, and then the fact that the algorithmic social media means a thing can blow up.
9:30 Ezra Klein? And I don't think you can even talk about the Mamdani one without also like what his foil was. Andrew Cuomo and Zerran Mamdani were perfect foils for each other.
9:37 Chris Hayes? Totally.
9:37 Ezra Klein? Like, you could not have scripted it better. And Cuomo had this gigantic super PAC behind him. And there was this real sense, I mean, correctly so, from any sort of normal rules of politics, that how is Mamdani or anyone else going to climb uphill against the amount of attentional artillery that that super PAC could and would buy? And we know that they were just absolutely dominating the airwaves 24/7, basically.
10:09 Chris Hayes? I cannot overstate to people outside the New York viewing area.
10:12 Ezra Klein? Okay, but-
10:13 Chris Hayes? How insane the rep, the same ad.
10:16 Ezra Klein? You know when I saw this ad was? I saw this ad one time. I mean, I saw it like 17 times in this one experience.
10:23 Chris Hayes? Right, yes, yeah.
10:23 Ezra Klein? Because I was at a bar and they had a TV on.
10:27 Chris Hayes? Exact same.
10:28 Ezra Klein? One of the things that struck me the whole way through on the Andrew Cuomo campaign was how old its understanding of communication was. And the idea, at some point, I would watch people talking about Cuomo as a juggernaut. And intentionally, in my world, Mamdani was a juggernaut.
10:42 Chris Hayes? He didn't exist.
10:42 Ezra Klein? Cuomo didn't exist.
10:43 Chris Hayes? And in fact, I think this-
10:45 Ezra Klein? And he was hiding from it, by the way, too. But like, he didn't exist.
10:47 Chris Hayes? Well, that's another thing we get to, is the sort of what Mamdani was doing on social media through things he was creating. And then there was what he was doing on other media outlets, which was also the opposite of Cuomo.
10:56 Ezra Klein? Yes, very much.
10:57 Chris Hayes? So, but on the first point, to take a step back, I mean, people really have to understand that for-
11:04 Chris Hayes? Probably, I'd say, the last 40 years. There's this formula for how, and I think it's true for both parties, but I know Democratic politics better. You raise a lot of money and then you spend it on TV buys. That's what a campaign is. Raise a lot of money, spend it on TV buys.
11:22 Ezra Klein? And that is how they choose candidates.
11:24 Chris Hayes? Is can you raise the money so that you can do the TV buys?
11:27 Ezra Klein? The DSCC and the DCCC, who recruit congressional candidates and senatorial candidates, one of the main things that they are testing is can you raise the money?
11:35 Chris Hayes? Yes.
11:36 Ezra Klein? And what are you doing to raise with the money? You are buying attention.
11:38 Chris Hayes? And what you're doing is buying attention through 30-second ads that are going to run on the local news in the three weeks before the election.
11:44 Ezra Klein? Yes.
11:45 Chris Hayes? That is 90% of the campaign. The last 10% is, yes, you got to go to, you go to events and you shake hands. I mean, maybe it's 80%. I'm sort of overstating a little bit, but, but you saw Cuomo just run this play, which was limit media availabilities, only pick your spots, be confident that this enormous carpet bombing is going to happen late down the stretch, and it totally backfired and didn't work.
12:11 Ezra Klein? And I really want to hold on this for a minute because you cannot buy attention now the way you once could.
12:17 Chris Hayes? Exactly right.
12:18 Ezra Klein? You can only earn it.
12:19 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
12:20 Ezra Klein? This goes back to the conversation we had right after the 2024 election because, I mean, that was also a period, for all that Donald Trump really did have a lot of money behind him in that election, Kamala Harris had more.
12:30 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
12:31 Ezra Klein? She raised a ton of money. They spent a ton of money and they absolutely did not dominate attention.
12:36 Chris Hayes? Yep.
12:37 Ezra Klein? You're almost watching between Cuomo and Mamdani, an almost pitch-perfect version of the old attentional strategy.
12:44 Chris Hayes? Yes.
12:45 Ezra Klein? Versus a pitch-perfect version.
12:47 Chris Hayes? Yes, exactly.
12:48 Ezra Klein? Of the most modern native attentional strategy collide. And I do think the underlying product here matters. Cuomo was just a bad product. He was a scandal-ridden, high negatives, very widely disliked.
13:03 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
13:04 Ezra Klein? You know, former governor who had had to resign in disgrace, running against this sort of fresh-faced figure. But it also was a real collision of these strategies in a way that I do think people should watch. Like, if I'm the DSCC or the DCCC, I would start thinking not about who do I think can raise money?
13:23 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
13:24 Ezra Klein? But who can raise attention themselves by being out there on all these platforms? And actually creating things that are native to the places they're running in, which will be different if you're an Ohio Senate candidate, you know, or a Wisconsin Senate candidate than if you're a, um, you know, New York City mayor or primary candidate. But Wisconsin and Ohio and Missouri and all these places and Kansas, they have their own things that people care about and their own cultures.
13:50 Chris Hayes? And they also, just to be clear, how else are people getting information now? I mean, look, above a certain age and among certain demographics, people still sort of like consume the news as the news in whatever form that takes. More and more voters and particularly voters who are in that outer concentric circle of political or news interest that Democrats lost by 15 points in 2024, that Democrats have struggled to win, that you have to win if you're going to win Ohio? Those folks, how else are they going to know about you? They're not, if they're not watching the evening news when you're buying your ad points and they're not watching network news and they're not watching linear cable, literally, how do they find out about you? They're going to find out about you from, from their phones.
14:35 Chris Hayes? So, well, how do you get to them? I mean, you really have to like think through this, like, how will this person know that I'm running, what my face is, what I look like, what I stand for? How will they know? And if you don't have a theory for that, that's other than we, well, we bought a bunch of points on TV, you're cooked. It's not going to work.
14:52 Ezra Klein? We did this show a couple of months ago about attention. It was after the election and that, that particular show got very wide, uh, distribution among Democratic politicians. I'm sure you heard this too. And then so that some of them would, would come to talk to me later and then they were, they, they were trying to do video and they were, and I have just thought a lot since then about why their videos are so bad. Members of the, the Senate Democrats and for that matter, the House Democrats, they have a lot of money in their campaign committees. They have a lot of money for communications. They could hire very, very good people.
15:34 Ezra Klein? And it's actually not the case that you can't make an argument about, you know, the big, beautiful bill or something go viral. Like, I know you can because I do it and you know you can because you do it. And I just look at what all of their content looks like. And I think. Does nobody there have a sense of what they like to watch? Because definitely they don't like to watch this. But the absence of taste among people who are
16:07 Chris Hayes? You've been to Washington.
16:08 Ezra Klein? in theory skilled political communicators.
16:11 Chris Hayes? Well, but that's
16:12 Ezra Klein? is weird to me.
16:12 Chris Hayes? I'm gonna, I'm gonna, here's a structural answer to that question, which I, don't hold me to, but here's a hypothesis. Democratic Party politics are really complicated politics of multiracial, multi-ethnic, multilingual coalitions. I think often the things that success in Democratic politics selects for is skill at managing these coalitional tensions, which is a really difficult thing to do. Like, Hakeem Jeffries is very good at that. Nancy Pelosi is the best at it. No one, and I think including Nancy Pelosi, would be like, I want to listen to a Nancy Pelosi podcast.
16:55 Chris Hayes? Nancy Pelosi is not a great public communicator. She is a legendary, all-time great manager of coalitional tension. I think the coalitional politics of Democratic politics select for people who are very skilled at managing these very different, difficult coalitional issues. That is a different skill than public communication to the normies.
17:22 Ezra Klein? Okay, but let me, let me push on this a little bit. I think you're right about a Hakeem Jeffries here, a Chuck Schumer, right? Absolutely. But you think about a Cory Booker.
17:32 Chris Hayes? Yeah, he is quite skilled.
17:33 Ezra Klein? You think about a Chris Murphy.
17:35 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
17:35 Ezra Klein? There are high level
17:36 Chris Hayes? Why can't they do?
17:37 Ezra Klein? Yeah, they are out there.
17:38 Chris Hayes? Chris Murphy walks across Connecticut every year.
17:41 Ezra Klein? Yeah, he does that too. Cory Booker did the 25-hour filibuster.
17:43 Chris Hayes? Right.
17:44 Ezra Klein? Or not quite filibuster, but, but long speech. There is a dimension where I know they want to communicate. I know they want what they're saying to break through. They are willing to say things. I mean, Chris Murphy's been very out there on the level of alarm he is raising. They're good podcast guests, right? If you were to rank
18:03 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
18:04 Ezra Klein? Senate Democrats and how good they are on a podcast, Murphy and Booker would be high up there.
18:07 Chris Hayes? Yeah, definitely.
18:07 Ezra Klein? But I guess the thing I am saying is that The amount of agita I have heard Democrats express about the lack of a liberal Joe Rogan, whatever it might be, as opposed to understanding attention as not something other people gift to you.
18:25 Chris Hayes? Right.
18:25 Ezra Klein? But something you earn yourself, or you look for as a skill in other people.
18:30 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
18:31 Ezra Klein? Or you have some other kind of filmmaker coach you in. It's just, the gap is so much wider than it seems like it needs to be at this point. And like, watching those people just get flattened by someone like Mamdani really speaks to it.
18:44 Chris Hayes? Yeah. I mean, part of the question here though, right, is like, about like, being native to new forms.
18:50 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
18:50 Chris Hayes? Like, I have made a few TikTok videos and like, they're not that good.
18:54 Ezra Klein? Yes.
18:55 Chris Hayes? And I don't, I think.
18:56 Ezra Klein? By the way, yeah, I've not seen your TikTok.
18:57 Chris Hayes? No, but I, I think I'm a pretty skilled public communicator. Like, this is what I do for a living. It's what I've done for a long time. There are these like weird, you know, we talked about sort of grammar, or like, there are these sort of differences of different mediums, formats, visual grammars at different times, that I also think, here's actually a key thing. I think you have to be a consumer to be a producer.
19:21 Ezra Klein? I agree.
19:21 Chris Hayes? And I think this is a huge gap. I really think this is a real problem. Now, if I started to get serious about making TikTok videos where I like talk to camera, having watched a lot more, I would be better now. And if I practiced, I'd get better. But the sort of like, textural sense Mamdani has for the format, you can't just like, read some packet or just jump in from nowhere, you know?
19:47 Ezra Klein? But that seems like a thing where you should be looking for certain kinds of talent.
19:50 Chris Hayes? Yeah, that I agree with.
19:51 Ezra Klein? Right. There's a real, there's a reality that a lot of people who run for office are news anchors.
19:55 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
19:56 Ezra Klein? Mike Pence had been a talk radio host.
19:57 Chris Hayes? Yep.
19:58 Ezra Klein? Kerry Blake, right, had been a news anchor, right? Like, a lot of these people have experience in front of a camera. And I, I just think you're gonna start, if both parties were smart, they would be looking for people.
20:09 Chris Hayes? Oh, yeah.
20:10 Ezra Klein? Who have attentional skill.
20:12 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
20:12 Ezra Klein? So one thing we saw here is that, yes, Mamdani was trying to make a selection about affordability, about material concerns, but Cuomo won the precincts where median income was under $50,000. What did you make of the somewhat strange structure of the coalitions?
20:30 Chris Hayes? I don't really have a good theory on it yet. The one piece of. Election analysis that has stuck out the most to me is this triangle that breaks down precincts by their degree of racial integration. Have you seen this triangle?
20:45 Ezra Klein? No.
20:45 Chris Hayes? It's so fascinating. So basically, it breaks down precincts by how white they are, how black they are, or how other they are. This is by census. So these are not the racial categories that I would use to describe you. But basically, what it finds is that the precincts that are basically all black and then the precincts that are all white were Cuomo precincts. And the more mixed a neighborhood was in its racial makeup, the better Mom Donnie did. Which I find to be a fascinating result. Now, that might just be a proxy for
21:15 Ezra Klein? Yeah, it might cross-correlate something.
21:16 Chris Hayes? Between the income stuff you're talking about. I mean, I think I understand, my mom and I were talking about this because she was, my mom was talking about the Bronx. And the Bronx was like a Cuomo borough, which is sort of ironic because like, if you go back to the whole like, opening bid of Mom Donnie, which is like, I'm here in the Bronx, in Fordham Road, in this place that swung, I'm talking to people, I'm going to address your concerns. And then like, he like ran up the numbers in the like, DSA precincts. But he couldn't have won unless he made it outside those perimeters. I think, look, I think name recognition is part of it. I think the devil you know or familiarity matters to voters often on the kind of periphery of an electorate in a democratic primary.
22:01 Chris Hayes? But I don't have like, a good theory of why it was the case. Like, if it was, there are other patchworks that I could sort of theorize better than those. What do you think?
22:12 Ezra Klein? I don't know either. I mean, I think you can come up with a couple of arguments. One is that maybe that's cross-correlating something that's just informational.
22:21 Chris Hayes? Right.
22:21 Ezra Klein? Those voters were less attached to the discourse.
22:23 Chris Hayes? Right.
22:24 Ezra Klein? Not telling the algorithm. They wanted to see a bunch of sort of Mom Donnie videos. They sort of know who Andrew Cuomo is.
22:30 Chris Hayes? That's a good theory.
22:30 Ezra Klein? And they're more mobilized by interest groups that used to be more powerful, but that were largely, like, the interest groups largely sign up with Cuomo, the unions, churches, right? Cuomo did a lot of his campaigning among black churches. So you might be seeing something that has to do with almost machine
22:45 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
22:46 Ezra Klein? politics and mobilization politics, which Cuomo was leaning on very heavily. There's also a crime and disorder question here. Yeah. Right? So if you're a voter making like $35,000 a year, you're living in night housing, you are much more exposed to crime and disorder. Yeah. Than, you know, voter in Williamsburg making 137,000. Yeah. Adams won running against crime and disorder, running up the totals among, you know, working class voters. So we know that that politics is powerful. I have this sort of view that Mamdani could only have won in a time when crime had actually gone down quite a lot, as it has, because if this really was a big crime and disorder election, I think that that would have been a big problem for him. And he wasn't well trusted on those issues.
23:28 Ezra Klein? Another is that this is a consistent thing we see in the data with left wing candidates. So I think you could just say this is something we've seen happening a lot. I mean, Donald Trump also won voters under $50,000. Right. So that there are different things happening. Yeah. As you move up the the income scale where people are voting much more expressively. Even though Mamdani tried desperately hard to run the most materialist campaign possible. But but politics is very expressive. There's not like a bad thing about it. It's just a reality. And I voted against my material interest in this mayor election. As did I. So everyone gets to do that. Yeah, as did I.
24:32 Ezra Klein? So I think you can cut politicians into these two categories. They're the politicians for whom you can identify a policy that stands for them. Yeah. Immediately.
24:45 Ezra Klein? Build the wall for Donald Trump.
24:46 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
24:46 Ezra Klein? Right? That is a policy, but it is a metonym for Donald Trump. Medicare for all for Bernie Sanders, the Green New Deal for AOC. Mamdani had like four or five, right?
24:56 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
24:56 Ezra Klein? It was free Zarent, it was free buses, it was free daycare. It was publicly owned grocery stores. All these are actual policies and they're worth talking about, but what they are is memetic.
25:07 Chris Hayes? Yeah, totally.
25:08 Ezra Klein? So Hillary Clinton running against Bernie Sanders had 70 policies, you know, or some very large number, but none that actually defined her. Kamala Harris, I cannot give you the policy that stands for Kamala Harris. The same is true for Brad Lander and a bunch of the other people in this campaign.
25:24 Chris Hayes? Which is not to say they didn't have them. They had.
25:26 Ezra Klein? They had. Brad Lander had a depth of policy on his campaign website in this mayoral race that I only associate with presidential campaigns.
25:34 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
25:34 Ezra Klein? It was so detailed and a lot of them are great, right?
25:36 Chris Hayes? Yes.
25:37 Ezra Klein? Brad Lander was my choice in the campaign. But I said this when I wrote this piece about him, that there are politicians who communicate about policy. And there are politicians who use policy to communicate. And one problem with a lot of establishment politicians is they communicate about policy. And the people who thrive right now on the attentional networks use policy to communicate. And you can lament that what modern media is doing is flattening policy down to this sort of bumper sticker level of memetic communication. And I kind of do lament it, but it's also true.
26:18 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
26:18 Ezra Klein? Like abundance like has been a big deal, but it's the word. And then it's like, there's all this stuff behind it.
26:23 Chris Hayes? Right, totally.
26:24 Ezra Klein? And that's a much more complicated set of conversations.
26:26 Chris Hayes? But it cuts through.
26:27 Ezra Klein? But if you don't have the memetic tip of the spear.
26:30 Chris Hayes? Yes. I mean, there's a question here that I think is interesting in terms of replicability is like, how much that ability is.
26:39 Chris Hayes? Structurally producible and how much is just like telling someone to dunk a basketball? You know what I mean? Like certain people have talents for things, right? Like, there is a question here to me about how much it comes down to talent. Like, people have instincts and nacks for this, but you're absolutely correct about this. And I think to go back to that video, like, there is this kind of one plus one equals two thing happening there. He goes up to Fordham Road in the Bronx area I know well. It's like right by where my mom grew up. In fact, I was just having lunch around there for Father's Day. And he asked people and they're like, groceries cost too much. And then at the end it's like, we're gonna try public grocery stores. And then grocery, now, to be clear, the grocery business runs at margins of like one to 3%.
27:21 Chris Hayes? So it's not private profit that's making the price of groceries more. I'm not convinced that the solution is going to solve the problem, particularly in this case, which I think is sort of the most dubious. But it's also like, I don't know, worth trying. And it also is an attempt to address people's concerns.
27:38 Ezra Klein? I, I've had a lot of conversations with people about publicly owned grocery stores. And I basically understand this modest pilot of like five stores that he proposed. As getting caught trying on something.
27:50 Chris Hayes? Yeah, right.
27:51 Ezra Klein? I do think this gets to something very real. Are the only policies that can become a medic in this way? These sort of huge sweeping, they have conflict at their heart. They make people not like them at the same time they make people like them. Build the wall, Medicare for all, you know, ongoing rent freeze.
28:11 Ezra Klein? Can policy be memetic? Can it be communicative?
28:18 Chris Hayes? And be good?
28:19 Ezra Klein? I don't just mean be good, because I'm not a, like, I think it would be great. Like, if you can pay for free daycare, terrific, right? I think we should have free daycare.
28:25 Chris Hayes? Right.
28:26 Ezra Klein? So I don't want to just create a good, bad
28:28 Chris Hayes? Right.
28:28 Ezra Klein? division here, like, all good policy is complicated and, you know, that's not, that's not my belief. But.
28:35 Ezra Klein? There is a way in which to survive memetic products have to be simple.
28:41 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
28:42 Ezra Klein? Memes are simple. The thing behind the meme might be complicated and good or bad or whatever. But for something to get energy, I think it has to be easily rememberable. I think it has to be big.
28:54 Chris Hayes? Yep.
28:55 Ezra Klein? It has to activate something people care about, and it probably has to be controversial. Medicare for all dominated. People forget this now. Every 2020 Democratic primary debate that I remember
29:06 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
29:06 Ezra Klein? was like just a lot of Medicare for all debate. Anybody who knew anything about what kind of Congress that Democrat was going to be facing, no matter who won the primary, knew we were not going to get Medicare for all. Fasheekir, Bernie Sanders campaign manager, was on my show like earlier this year or maybe late last year.
29:25 Chris Hayes? Right, saying like, we would have gotten as close as we can get, but we.
29:27 Ezra Klein? Yeah, basically, we would have, we would have expanded the age range of Medicare.
29:30 Chris Hayes? Right.
29:31 Ezra Klein? Right? Everybody knew it.
29:32 Chris Hayes? Right.
29:32 Ezra Klein? But the reason that it could dominate so much was it unleashed controversial energy.
29:37 Chris Hayes? Yep.
29:37 Ezra Klein? There was a debate, would you abolish all private health insurance? Were you willing to raise taxes on middle-class Americans to fund this?
29:43 Chris Hayes? It was intentionally salient because conflict is intentionally salient.
29:46 Ezra Klein? Exactly. A lot of policy is built for compromise.
29:50 Chris Hayes? Yeah, right.
29:51 Ezra Klein? But memes are not built for compromise.
29:53 Chris Hayes? We actually, I think we have a good tangible example in recent history in exactly this context from the mayor that Zohar Mamdani says was the best mayor of his life that got the New York Times very mad at him, which was Bill de Blasio's universal pre-K.
30:06 Ezra Klein? As a non-New Yorker, Bill de Blasio sure seemed like a perfectly good mayor to me.
30:09 Chris Hayes? I.
30:10 Ezra Klein? My kid's in 3K.
30:11 Chris Hayes? I'm a de Blasio. Let's talk about universal pre-K for a second.
30:14 Ezra Klein? De Blasio problems.
30:16 Chris Hayes? Universal pre-K did have that memetic energy.
30:18 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
30:18 Chris Hayes? It's simple and straightforward. Like, every kid in the city has to go to kindergarten.
30:22 Ezra Klein? Yep.
30:22 Chris Hayes? We're going to make a new grade below it, and this is informed by real empirical work that's been done, and we're going to have a tax structure that funds it and makes it happen.
30:34 Chris Hayes? It was controversial at the time. There were lots of people who said this is a bad idea. You're going to put local daycares out of business. I mean, there was, there was conflictual energy around it. And then they delivered it. And I sent my kid, my first kid to, it was year two, maybe, that it was up and running. And I walked into this school that had been leased by the Department of Education, that had formerly, I think, been a big Catholic school. They were like, this is like, one of the biggest pre Ks in the whole city. It was like 20 classes. I was like, this is the most extraordinary accomplishment I've ever, like, I can't believe you guys stood this thing up. And then my kid's going here for free and comes out every day like, so like, so that's an example. I just want to
31:16 Chris Hayes? give an example of like, everything that you said, it was memetic policy, it cut through, it identified Bill de Blasio. It was one of the hugest things. They got into power, they actually did it. It actually worked. That is an example of all of those things happening.
31:31 Ezra Klein? And yet it didn't stop everybody from turning on Bill de Blasio.
31:35 Chris Hayes? Right. Because then it's like, what have you done for me lately? If you don't have a, here's the thing about that promise, I will say. If you don't have a kid that age, like,
31:42 Ezra Klein? It's highly salient to me. I have a three year old.
31:45 Chris Hayes? For me, I was like, I was like, this is awesome.
31:47 Ezra Klein? I see a lot of people like on Twitter celebrating, um, Mom Donny's win. And I think Mom Donny's win is exciting, but I've said this before, like, the downside for him was not that he loses a primary. Like, the bad outcome is that he wins and fails at governing. He cannot get the tax increases he needs from Albany. He does not control the tax increases he needs for this agenda. And Kathy Hochul has said,
32:07 Chris Hayes? Has already said no.
32:08 Ezra Klein? She has made a no, like, raising taxes like this pledge, and she's not going to break it. So he's not going to have the money he needs. An extended rent freeze. I know people do nonprofit housing.
32:19 Chris Hayes? Same.
32:20 Ezra Klein? And there are people who are ideologically aligned with Mom Donny. And they do not think this is a good idea.
32:25 Chris Hayes? Yeah. I know people in nonprofit housing feel the same way.
32:27 Ezra Klein? Over, you know, you do it for one year. Okay, fine. But over an extended period of time, you will reduce the incentive to build that housing, you will reduce the incentive to care for that housing. He's like, Mom Donny will say like, oh, you have these other programs you can apply to for relief. If you need, like, all that stuff is complicated. And you make a market less profitable to be in and fewer people will be in it. A lot of the things like free daycare, he probably just can't pay for.
32:52 Chris Hayes? Right.
32:52 Ezra Klein? So if you set up these expectations, and then you don't meet them. Is it okay because your supporters know you tried? Or is it a kind of like a structural thing where you have set yourself up for failure?
33:08 Chris Hayes? I think it's the most important question in some ways. I mean, one thing I would say is I like experimentation and new ideas. So when he was asked about the public groceries, I think it's in the Bulwark podcast. And he says, like, we'll try it if it doesn't work, c'est la vie.
33:25 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
33:26 Chris Hayes? And I, I love that answer. Politicians never give that answer. They never give that answer. Like, let's, you know, the person who really most embodied that spirit is FDR. If you go back and you read about like, you know, the first hundred days and like, they're just trying a lot. Like, we now think about FDR as this colossus who remade the relationship between the citizen and the federal government. Right? A lot of that stuff did not work, like, fully failed. Like, a lot of the interventions failed. They did a lot of clunky stuff. Like, there was a lot of, now, totally different time. He had these enormous mandate. It was a crisis. But I will say that, like, I like the idea of experimentation.
34:06 Chris Hayes? I like the idea of these ideas coming from outside of what like the consensus around sensible policy is. But the test for it is, can you deliver?
34:17 Ezra Klein? One thing that struck me a lot about Mamdani was his ability to listen, to sense his hypegeist, but also to listen to voters, right? The relentless focus on affordability. That was an act of listening.
34:27 Chris Hayes? Totally.
34:28 Ezra Klein? And then being able to respond to it. And it's been one of my views for a while. It's actually is the introduction of my book, that we have moved into an era of politics. It is going to be all about affordability. Housing inflation.
34:42 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
34:43 Ezra Klein? Cost of childcare inflation, cost of healthcare inflation, which is actually moderated in some ways, but is still quite bad. Educational pricing, right, for four-year colleges, that kind of thing. That had been building for decades.
34:55 Chris Hayes? Yes.
34:56 Ezra Klein? That is not a thing that happened in 2022 and 2023. That had been building for decades. And now. You know, things are like, they kind of rise and like, they're an issue and then like, they're actually intolerable.
35:07 Chris Hayes? Yeah, right.
35:08 Ezra Klein? And so like, future politicians were going to have to develop a set of ideas and a way of talking about bringing costs down, not just bringing subsidies up. And whether Mamdani's particular policies will work to do that.
35:22 Chris Hayes? That was the focus.
35:23 Ezra Klein? He really struck me as a politician native to this era of concerns.
35:28 Chris Hayes? I mean, think about the rent freeze, right? He wasn't saying, "We're going to give rent rebates through a tax filing, where you file a tax and we'll give you $150 back." It was like, "No, we're just going to cap the price."
35:38 Ezra Klein? The concern is whether or not, from a policy perspective.
35:40 Chris Hayes? Right, whether that works.
35:42 Ezra Klein? Mamdani talks a very, very good, I don't just think game, like, I think he gets that you need housing supply.
35:48 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
35:48 Ezra Klein? But his plans are all public housing, which is fine, but that's much harder. And, and then when he talks about market rate housing, he sort of is like, "I really believe in market rate housing, as long as it accords to our sustainability, union, and affordability needs."
36:04 Chris Hayes? Right, yeah.
36:04 Ezra Klein? And it's like, when you need a lot of housing, adding a lot of conditions to that housing is going to both like, raise the price. And so I really think there's a question about whether or not he can deliver affordability if he's not able to increase supply.
36:17 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
36:18 Ezra Klein? I would feel better about a rent freeze that was paired with an incredible explosion of building. If what was happening was like, we were freezing rents and there were cranes everywhere.
36:27 Chris Hayes? Right, yeah.
36:28 Ezra Klein? Okay, fine, like, because maybe in three years, we have a lot of housing coming online.
36:31 Chris Hayes? Right.
36:31 Ezra Klein? But if you, at this level of supply creation, you freeze rent for an extended period of time, you might begin to like, constrict, supply it on the road and create a bigger problem for the future. There are some levers we could pull on this. Housing is a particularly tough one, because it takes time to build houses and we make it, and we make it hard to build houses. I'm very skeptical that Mamdani can make free daycare happen. I don't think he's got the money to do it. There's more infrastructure that would need than was needed even for a 3K.
36:58 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
36:58 Ezra Klein? But you could conceptually do free daycare, definitely do it nationally. There are ways to approach some of these things, but I think this is what politics economically is going to be about for an extended period.
37:12 Chris Hayes? I think one, one wrinkle to the housing question, which I think is a really important thing to always keep coming back to, and you discuss in your book. You know, one person's price is another person's income. And there is a real, genuine material conflict in New York City between renters and homeowners. It's not false consciousness, it's not a distraction, it's not culture war bullshit. Like, if you own a home and most of your wealth is in your home, you want to see that wealth go up.
37:40 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
37:40 Chris Hayes? If you are trying to enter the housing market or a renter, rising house prices are bad for you.
37:46 Ezra Klein? And you will not be excited about Mamdani or anyone to come in saying, "We're going to build a ton of public housing next to you."
37:51 Chris Hayes? Yes.
37:51 Ezra Klein? Like, that's the other thing that's very difficult about public housing and affordable housing.
37:54 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
37:55 Ezra Klein? Is that all these homeowners
37:56 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
37:56 Ezra Klein? who want their high home prices do not want that down the block from them.
37:59 Chris Hayes? And that, and that material fight, you know,
38:01 Ezra Klein? Huge problem in California.
38:02 Chris Hayes? Which the homeowners have been winning in California, have been beating the brains out of the people trying to buy homes and renters for decades now to a degree that's like truly catastrophic, I think it's fair to say. I do worry that the structural nature of public opinion now is negative in a way that makes even good governance not resonate with people, if that makes sense? Or the structural limitations on governing, one of the two. That it's just very hard because of how many things contribute to a working class person who lives on Fordham Road, being like, "Man, I am squeezed in every direction." Can Zora Mamdani unilaterally make it so they don't feel that way?
38:47 Chris Hayes? It's hard to say. Can they feel that I got a mayor who's trying to make my life better? Yes.
38:53 Ezra Klein? So translating this kind of communication from campaign to governance, not that many people have had to do it, but Obama had to do it. And I think, I would say, he failed to do that. And the sense is that he was an amazing, amazing, amazing campaigner. And then, given the reality of incremental victory.
39:13 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
39:14 Ezra Klein? He was never sort of able to narrativize that.
39:17 Chris Hayes? Think that's true.
39:17 Ezra Klein? In a way that could ease the disappointment a lot of people felt. And I think that's in some ways why the liberalism he represented after him for at least some time had a hard time because he had raised hopes so high for a lot of people. And then it's like, eh, you know, I mean, things did change. I'm a big fan of Barack Obama. The character is a huge and ongoing achievement. But how do you narrativize the difference between people's hopes for your campaign and what they got? Donald Trump is interesting because he comes after Obama. He also makes huge, sweeping, wild promises.
39:53 Chris Hayes? They never built the wall.
39:54 Ezra Klein? Obama never did, right?
39:54 Chris Hayes? They never built the wall.
39:55 Ezra Klein? They don't build the wall. But Donald Trump has this way of communicating throughout his entire presidency. And I mean, he loses reelection, right? So it doesn't work. Exactly. But that he is, it's like somehow he's a president, but he's not responsible for what happens.
40:08 Chris Hayes? No, he's at war with his own government.
40:09 Ezra Klein? Deep state. So there was a narrative that Donald Trump maintained as president that allowed him to explain away the difference between what he attempted and what he achieved. And now Trump is president again, and he has much more control over the government. So he's not, it's not as much of a deep state narrative this time.
40:28 Chris Hayes? Although he has spent the last 24 hours railing against the intelligence apparatus.
40:32 Ezra Klein? Yes, exactly.
40:33 Chris Hayes? Like, it's very classic.
40:34 Ezra Klein? So, yes, because they say that the Iranian strikes only set it back by a couple of months, and he's saying it's false. So this one is like, can you use it as a form of power? But then is, can you use it if you're not being able to get it done, right? Can you narrativize the grimy, gritty, just reality of governing in a way that maintains, like, the faith people have in you, even if you're not being able to deliver to them what you promised?
40:59 Chris Hayes? It's, I think, I think there's a few things I'd say about that. One, I think mayor is different than president in a lot of ways, partly because it is much more retail. And you can get a long way by showing up a lot. I mean, Eric Adams actually does that pretty well. And, you know, I thought the
41:17 Ezra Klein? There's a club opening.
41:18 Chris Hayes? What's that?
41:19 Ezra Klein? He's gonna be there.
41:21 Chris Hayes? You know, and this is, you know, this is Chuck Schumer's legendary talent, not as mayor, as senator, but before that as congressman. There is a little bit of a just trap that is difficult to avoid, which is like, it will be more difficult to govern than it is to campaign, always. Andrew Cuomo's father quite famously said, we, you know, we campaign in poetry and we govern in prose. And I think that part of the way, I guess, that you escape that trap is talented political communication. I mean, I really do. Like, I think you have to do a good job. Like, you can't be a total failure as a mayor. Right? Like, the city has to feel like there are tangible improvements in people's lives, but that alone won't be enough. You basically need both.
42:03 Chris Hayes? You know, I thought the, the Mom Donnie video to close out the campaign where he walks the length of Manhattan and he's just like talking to people, dapping people up, eating a slice of pizza, drinking water, like, you have to keep doing that, I think, to be an effective mayor. And I think that does actually allow you to narrativize.
42:21 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
42:22 Chris Hayes? Because it's like, I'm out here in the streets and I'm talking to people and I'm hearing what you're saying about what you're trying to do and I'm communicating to you about what we're trying to do. The getting caught trying, I think, is sort of the key part of that.
42:34 Ezra Klein? I think this is something you're seeing with Donald Trump right now, which is, he actually has an instinct for how to turn policy that isn't affecting that many people into something that is intentionally salient.
42:47 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
42:48 Ezra Klein? Which is to make it a performance.
42:49 Chris Hayes? Yeah, he performs everything.
42:50 Ezra Klein? Including war. Including war, the deportations, the sending people to foreign prisons and having Kristi Noem like pose at them in her flak jacket, that there's a way that he feels to me, I mean, he's a genuine attentional innovator, say what you will about Donald Trump.
43:05 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
43:06 Ezra Klein? And that he is trying to make much more of policy into a public performance. I mean, there is a reason.
43:12 Chris Hayes? I mean, Dr. Phil is embedded with the ICE teams.
43:14 Ezra Klein? Dr. Phil is embedded with the ICE teams. His cabinet is full of people from TV, be they reality TV stars from one period, like Sean Duffy, all the way over to the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth, who's a weekend cable news host. So there is this way in which I think Trump has been trying to sort of square this, like... Most people will not feel the effect of most of his policies. But what if he can turn those policies into programming?
43:42 Chris Hayes? Yes, but here's the irony, right? Like, he's at 10 points underwater and like, all the stuff's pulling at exactly what you would predict from thermostatic public opinion. And from like, the use of the bully pulpit. I mean, David Shor had a thing the other day about one of the most consistent counterintuitive findings is that when a president talks about something, its negatives go up.
44:02 Ezra Klein? Yep.
44:02 Chris Hayes? Right? The sort of negative bully pulpit. Now, the question to me is, and this is the thing that I think feels very unresolved because of how sui generis Trump is and how sui generis his trajectory has been, is like, does it net out as a positive?
44:19 Chris Hayes? The question of attentional domination, he does it better than anyone. He is a genuine innovator and a weird genius for attention. At a pathological and feral level that is not replicable. But the constant show, the constant conflict, like, his negatives are high. He lost reelection. He stuck around. He won. He almost immediately started to tank in the polls. He's a very polarizing figure. It works at some level. There's some power to it. But like, how much does it work still remains unclear to me.
44:54 Ezra Klein? I think that's right. But what it works to do is set narrative.
45:02 Ezra Klein? And that is its own dimension of power. It is a kind of power that he exerts in a way few presidents do over culture. And I'd say this is true for Mamdani, right? Mamdani as a discourse object. Trump is a discourse object, right? It's not like Zora Mamdani is the only person to have recently won a Democratic primary anywhere in the country. In Jersey, Mikey Sherrill.
45:25 Chris Hayes? Yep.
45:25 Ezra Klein? Just won, who's an House member, just won the primary for governor. Sherrill, I think, is an incredibly impressive politician, a former Navy helicopter pilot, right? Like, I find her very, very, very charismatic.
45:36 Chris Hayes? Yeah, she's very good.
45:37 Ezra Klein? More on the moderate side of things, right? There was not a debate, does every Democrat need to reckon with the A victory of Cheryl in the way that right now there's a discourse of how does every Democrat and possibly every politician, possibly every human being need to reckon with what we just saw in this June Democratic primary in New York City?
45:56 Chris Hayes? The governor, you know, the former governor of North Carolina, Roy Cooper, who served two terms in a state that Trump has won every time that he's been on the ballot there, and left with, I think, 55, 56% approval rating. No one's like, we need to find the next Roy Cooper. Like, that guy, it's like, he was an insanely effective politician in very difficult terrain, and has none of these, like, attentionally salient qualities, right? And we talked about this last time, which is like, high risk, high reward, high volatility stuff. Like, there are trade-offs here.
46:28 Ezra Klein? I guess this is where the question you were asking a minute ago feels like it bites to me, which is, you're saying, does this kind of attentional dominance net out as a positive?
46:37 Chris Hayes? Right.
46:38 Ezra Klein? It can clearly win. It can clearly win primaries. It clearly can help you exert a cultural and narrative force.
46:45 Chris Hayes? And an ideological force, I would say, which is important.
46:48 Ezra Klein? Like, above and beyond what you would be able to do, right? AOC is not the only Democrat who has, like, knocked off another Democrat in a primary. She's not the only Democrat to win a House seat. She is incredibly salient as a national politician because of her ability to drive attention. And on the other hand, like, I recently was talking to a bunch of various people in the sort of new Democrats caucus, which is like the more moderate House Democrats caucus. And one thing that struck me, just talking to them, is a couple of them are very talented communicators, but they're actually, what most of them communicate in their bearing and the way they are, is not flashy, aggressive ideological projects.
47:29 Chris Hayes? Right.
47:30 Ezra Klein? It's a kind of, like, this person might coach your little league team.
47:32 Chris Hayes? Yeah, yeah.
47:33 Ezra Klein? You know, and so these things
47:34 Chris Hayes? He's a good dude.
47:34 Ezra Klein? work and don't work in different places. And I'm, I don't think we have a good way of answering the question of, like, when is it valuable to drive this kind of attention? And when is it not?
47:46 Chris Hayes? So here's what I would say. I think One place where it matters is presidential politics.
47:51 Ezra Klein? Yes.
47:51 Chris Hayes? I think presidential politics, like, there's just no question that it matters at that level. And you need someone who is a insanely skilled communicator with an incredible appetite and instinct for attention. The kind of person who wants to go do three-hour podcast interviews.
48:08 Ezra Klein? Yes.
48:08 Chris Hayes? I think if you have a person who's not that, you're really in trouble. The other thing that I think is worth considering is the valence of incumbent versus challenger, where I actually think this sort of is interesting to think about. I think this kind of attentional dominance works better as a challenger than an incumbent.
48:26 Ezra Klein? Sure.
48:26 Chris Hayes? For exactly the reason we're talking about, right? So, like, we're seeing right now Donald Trump recreate some of the thermostatic public opinion on immigration that he had the first term.
48:37 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
48:37 Chris Hayes? Which was part of what drove Democrats to adopting a line on immigration that was to the left of what their previous line had been, partly along the lines of how public opinion had changed in recoiling in horror at what Donald Trump was doing on immigration. So, my point being here is that there are more upsides to downsides of the challenger for this high volatility, high-risk, high-reward attentional trade than there are for the incumbent.
49:06 Ezra Klein? I also think there's a dimension here where they work. This is very, very, very valuable in primaries.
49:14 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
49:15 Ezra Klein? Everything we were saying a minute ago about policy that becomes memetic is policy that unlocks a lot of attention, usually through controversy, where some people really like it and other people really hate it. And what you're hoping to do when you unleash that kind of attentional energy, that kind of conflict energy, is that there are more people who really like the thing than really hate it. And the trade that you often see some of these candidates make is they are unleashing energy in the primary that might hurt them in the general.
49:46 Chris Hayes? Yeah, yeah.
49:46 Ezra Klein? So, it is a often-made observation about Donald Trump, that he seems to underperform in the general. He's incredibly dominant at the primary level.
49:55 Chris Hayes? Right.
49:55 Ezra Klein? But Trump and then candidates like him who are less talented than him, MAGA candidates... It's tend to underperform in the general, right? The view is that another, you know, I think a lot of people believe, and I'm one of them, that if Republicans had run Marco Rubio in 2016, they would have won by more. And I actually think that's true in 2024 also. They run Nikki Haley, if they run probably even Ron DeSantis, they would have won by more. Like, the conditions were there for that. Trump creates a lot of negative attention on him in in general elections. New York is weird in a lot of ways. But one is that the expectation is, if you have won the Democratic primary, you have won. Right? The fact that that is not a complete expectation with Mamdani speaks to the way that there's at
50:36 Ezra Klein? least a belief that he will generate a counter mobilization against him at a higher rate than like a Brad Lander would than than some of these other candidates. But it'll probably be OK for him in New York City because, again, it's so dominated by Democrats. But this sort of thing where there's this question of how do you stand out in a primary campaign in a non-representative electorate that agrees with you
51:00 Chris Hayes? Yes.
51:01 Ezra Klein? much more than the general electorate will. But then if you've done that,
51:06 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
51:06 Ezra Klein? then what do you do with these positions you've taken, particularly if you're dealing with a general electorate that that is not all the way to your side?
51:12 Chris Hayes? So I
51:13 Ezra Klein? I always think like, just to finish this one example, and it is that in Ohio, when J.D. Vance ran for Senate, Mike DeWine, who's like an potentially not very skilled, kind of more older school Republican, he was governor, he won his reelection campaign that year by like 20-ish points. Vance underperformed in the Senate race. I mean, he won, but it was by six, seven, eight points.
51:32 Chris Hayes? Yep.
51:33 Ezra Klein? It was not a an amazing performance, in part because he had taken very, very MAGA positions. Now, has it worked after J.D. Vance? Yeah.
51:40 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
51:40 Ezra Klein? But but not in the sense that J.D. Vance overperforms with general election audiences. Like, this is where it's like,
51:45 Chris Hayes? Yes.
51:45 Ezra Klein? it's an uncertain trade a lot of the time.
51:47 Chris Hayes? It's a really uncertain trade. And I think to add one wrinkle here that I think is interesting and slightly wheezy, but worthwhile, is that, you know, New York City has ranked choice voting. The ranked choice voting allows voters to rank five different candidates. That created some interesting incentives that are a little different in this race that I actually think Worked against part of what you're saying there, which is like being the biggest bomb thrower is the most distinguishing. But the way ranked choice voting works is you don't want to alienate other people's supporters. Because you want them to rank you second, or third, or fourth. And one of the things I thought was very interesting about how Mamdani navigated this,
52:30 Chris Hayes? and I think huge props here to Brad Lander, who came in third in the sort of first round of voting, was that there was all these cross endorsements and this sort of coalition building. So it wasn't just bomb throwing, like, there's a kind of politics you see particularly in Republican primaries, where it's like, the rest of these people are sellouts, and I'm the truest MAGA, you know? There kind of wasn't that. Mamdani wasn't running against, like, the Democratic establishment. There wasn't this kind of like, you see this amongst the sort of left flank of the Democratic Party of like, these corporate sellouts, like, they suck. There was not very much of that. There was directed at Cuomo. But it was a pretty, like, he cross endorsed other candidates as well.
53:15 Chris Hayes? And I think the reason that's salient for the general is that it's, yes, it's in a primary, but it's also coalition building. Yes. And I think that coalition building actually ends up being extremely important in a general, which, by the way, New York City had five straight terms of a Republican mayor. Let's not forget. Yes. The idea that, like, the expectation is that the Democrat wins is like, a fairly recent vintage. Like, Giuliani won twice, Bloomberg was three terms, that was 20 years in a row Republican mayor.
54:07 Chris Hayes? I think some of his people will not like hearing me say this. I read Mamdani as a left pluralist, not a left populist. Yeah, I agree. Which is to say that-
54:18 Ezra Klein? People, I think, have very, very shifty definitions of populism, but in its classic definition, like what actually makes somebody a populist politician is not that they believe in redistribution or believe that the working man is getting screwed a bit. It's that they believe that the system is built around like a true people and then the like small conspiratorial enemies of the people who are keeping everybody else down. And if you could just break through them and have your villains and destroy your villains, you can sort of hit the the more utopic politics you're looking for. I have seen many like right populists and left populists. Mamdani's, what struck me often about his affect, which I have thought was a bit of a TikTok affect, because TikTok, I mean, people forget this, but TikTok was like its
55:00 Ezra Klein? whole thing, and it doesn't really work this way anymore. But for a very long time, they were really pushing it to be a positive platform. Yeah. Right? Like, they positioned it algorithmically. Yes. Against what was happening on Twitter and Facebook and other things at that time. Mamdani always seemed much more motivated by his sympathies than his resentments. And Cuomo felt to me much more motivated by his resentments than his sympathies. And this also then played into the RCV dynamic you're discussing, which is, I think it would have been natural to assume that these other more establishment, long-serving New York politicians
55:40 Ezra Klein? would be likelier to cross endorse and work with the frontrunner. Right. Former governor. Right. Right? Who could both in theory give them more because he was likelier to be elected for most of the campaign, but also somebody they would have known better because he's been in New York politics forever. And to me, this was both like politically meaningful and substantively meaningful because it undercut the central argument of Cuomo's candidacy. They all hated, not all Jessica Ramos endorsed him, but like, they largely really, really disliked him. Like Brad Lander really clearly dislikes Cuomo, and so do a lot of them. Yes. Like, they did not want Cuomo ranked. So it created this interesting space where
56:20 Ezra Klein? The dynamics were not what you would have thought in a left insurgent versus Democratic establishment race.
56:25 Chris Hayes? And there's this validation role that ends up happening from that, which is like, if you're hearing that the guy's this like terrifying scary figure who's an extremist, but then the other candidates in the field are cross endorsing with him and appearing at him, like, it makes it much harder for that to land. And I think, again, to Mamdani's credit, I agree with you that he does not have a kind of like, I think it's well said that he's sort of animated by syntheses as opposed to his resentments. His affect is welcoming and pluralistic and also not like, they're out to get me. Like, he hasn't, he really just does not portray that at all, which I think can be a real problem for a certain form of kind of left populist politics, like, it's a reg system, it's all rigged,
57:10 Chris Hayes? the fix is in, the, you know, which, again, he got $25 million dropped on his head by super PAC money. Bloomberg wrote a $5 million check like two weeks, like, there was a little bit of a rigged against him, but he did not let that, again, if you look at that walking the length of Manhattan video, that's, the affect there is welcoming and inclusive at all times.
57:32 Ezra Klein? But this is where I don't want to over McLuhan, Marshall McLuhan, everything and say the medium is always a message and everybody's shaped by their mediums, because obviously a lot of people on TikTok are in vertical video who are not like, is there a Mamdani or don't even follow what I'm talking about. But I believe, I believe this strongly, that the rise of populist right and to a lesser extent populist left politics all across the world, all at the same time, I believe the single strongest force there was not just immigration, and it wasn't. I mean, you can really look at this in the data, it was not economics.
58:07 Chris Hayes? Right.
58:08 Ezra Klein? I think it was the rise of the central communication platforms of politics being high conflict.
58:16 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
58:16 Ezra Klein? High engagement. Compressed text.
58:19 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
58:20 Ezra Klein? Platforms. And I think those platforms, in a way that we do not have incredibly good even language for, are somewhat illiberal in their design, that they are, and by that I mean that they are structured in a way that makes the fundamental temperament of liberalism hard to do. They're not well suited for deliberation. They're not well suited for tolerance, right? They're not well suited for, on the one hand, on the other hand.
58:46 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
58:47 Ezra Klein? Right? The things that make deliberative liberal democracy kind of function, those habits of mind, the way you hear one like Barack Obama, Barack Obama is not good at Twitter.
58:57 Chris Hayes? No.
58:57 Ezra Klein? He's just not, his Twitter is bad.
58:58 Chris Hayes? No, he's not.
58:59 Ezra Klein? It's terrible.
58:59 Chris Hayes? No.
59:00 Ezra Klein? Because they're about groups. They're about engagement like within and then against other groups. They're about like drawing these lines very, very carefully. And I think they just create by nature a more populist form of politics, or at least they create a communicative structure of politics where it is easier for outsider populist politicians to thrive. The thing coming after it, which I don't know if it will hold this way, but this kind of vertical, like when you look at TikTok, when you look at Instagram reels, again, it's not that no content is high conflict political content, but most of it just isn't. It's much more like day in the life stuff. It's very highly visual. It's, and you just kind of saw that a little bit.
59:44 Chris Hayes? That's really interesting.
59:44 Ezra Klein? Campaign. I think there was something in the grammar of Mom Donnie.
59:47 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
59:48 Ezra Klein? That was so inflected by that era. I mean, he's like our, really our first Vine politician.
59:53 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
59:53 Ezra Klein? Like, people forget all this, but I think there was something there. His grammar was not Twitter's grammar.
59:57 Chris Hayes? Kind of goofy, kind of like.
59:59 Ezra Klein? Grammar was TikTok's grammar.
1:00:00 Chris Hayes? Yeah, I think that's a really interesting point. I mean, I'm sort of thinking this through. So I, I think I agree that
1:00:08 Chris Hayes? social media has constituted over the last decade is structurally illiberal. I think I agree with that. Relentlessly algorithmically competitive attention markets are going to drive towards the parts of us as ourselves that are the furthest from deliberation.
1:00:25 Ezra Klein? Yes.
1:00:26 Chris Hayes? Right? So like I have a whole chapter in the book about Lincoln Douglas debates and like how different that is, not that, you know, not that that should be the model for everything. So I agree with that. I think it's, I'm sort of thinking through this idea of. The visual grammar and kind of like affect of the vertical video as being less conflict populist in its nature, which I think is a really interesting idea. I mean, one thought I had, and you just said that about Barack Obama's bad at Twitter, is that it was funny, I watched the whole Mamdani speech and I was like, it's fine. He's not great at giving a speech. Like Barack Obama was great at giving a speech. That is not his met.
1:01:08 Ezra Klein? There are great one-minute clips in his speeches, though.
1:01:11 Chris Hayes? There are great one-minute clips in his speeches, but like, his vertical video performance is a 10 of 10. His speech performance was not a 10 of 10 to me. And I think that speaks to something about the nature of that. And I think you're right that like, I guess the one, here's the one counterpoint I would say. It seems to me like there are ways in which those algorithms over time, and partly this is, partly this has to do with the weird black box of the algorithm, right? Is they do start to get more and more conflict.
1:01:40 Ezra Klein? Yes.
1:01:40 Chris Hayes? Embracing because the like clapback video and the posting of the comment of someone said something and then you, you like respond to the comment and it's up there in a window and the stitching, like stitching became this thing that like really generates conflict. Like here's this like dumb clueless person saying this thing and I come in and I stitch and talk about how stupid they are. So I do think there is still that incentive, but I think you're, you're right that overall the vibes directionally in vertical video right now are more positive than the vibes of say, the cesspool that is X.
1:02:17 Ezra Klein? Well, it's also, the other thing here, just reality, is it's more capacious. I mean, the fundamental reality of the Twitter text box, I mean, is a little less true now, but is still is basically true, is that it's a compression mechanism.
1:02:33 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:02:34 Ezra Klein? And the move towards languid podcasting.
1:02:41 Ezra Klein? Well, we're just like sitting here vibing for two hours, um, you know, or longer, right? I was amazed, you know, I knew this was out there, but on the abundance, I went and did some of these podcasts like, um,
1:02:52 Chris Hayes? They really, they really keep going.
1:02:54 Ezra Klein? You really do three to four hours. But even in this, like what you can do, like you can put up six minute videos. I mean, I have videos that go out on Tik Tok that are six, 12 minutes. Actually, a lot can be in there.
1:03:05 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:03:06 Ezra Klein? It is compressed compared to the Lincoln Douglas debates, but it is a lot less compressed than what the original Instagram box allowed you.
1:03:16 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:03:16 Ezra Klein? Than what the, you know, dominant for a very long time Twitter box allowed you than what a Facebook post offered. And then, I mean, what Mom Diamond is doing a ton of was podcasting.
1:03:25 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:03:26 Ezra Klein? Right?
1:03:26 Chris Hayes? And then getting clipped from that.
1:03:28 Ezra Klein? And then it gets clipped, but it does come in the context, you know, of these sort of much longer conversations that create a different vibe between people, you know? I actually find it very hard to maintain. I've had many people into this show because they are such harsh critics of me and I find that they find it very hard to maintain the criticism when you're in a sort of extended social dynamic.
1:03:49 Chris Hayes? Devious of you.
1:03:50 Ezra Klein? Well, it's actually sometimes a problem. Sometimes I have to like cue them, remember you hate, right? Like we're here to talk about this. But these things, you just really see when you do that, like how much mediums shape us all.
1:04:00 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:04:01 Ezra Klein? Um, it's much harder to be a jerk to somebody's face than it is on, under these dynamics. And so it's not that it's all, like all vertical videos going to be sunny, but it just is going to be different in ways that I'm not even sure we're quite ready to understand in politics.
1:04:16 Chris Hayes? Yes, I totally go with that. And I also think that like, you know, this is, I'm just sort of spitballing here. So I can hear already in my head, the academics who study this being like, you're totally wrong, but let me just throw this out. Like we've got the kind of like semi apocryphal story of the 1960 debate with Nixon and Kennedy and how people listened, thought Nixon won and people that watched thought Kennedy won and like.
1:04:36 Ezra Klein? If you go watch that debate, Nixon just does not look that bad to me.
1:04:39 Chris Hayes? No, I agree.
1:04:40 Ezra Klein? I've done this a few times and Nixon looks totally fine.
1:04:42 Chris Hayes? The reason I say apocryphal is I'm not even sure it's true. It's sort of become this kind of mythos about how this works. And it's capturing the central sort of McLuhan insight about like how much the medium structures this. There was this kind of, there's a sort of pre-literate politics in America when you have very small percentage of voters who can actually read. Then you have like the beginnings of radio politics and you know, people know about the fireside chat. Television is totally transformative to American politics. The first wave of internet politics that lasts for a very long time is written politics. It's the politics of text. I mean, all the stuff that's happening with like blogs when we came up and you know, Facebook posts and all this stuff. We are now moving like we're going through this
1:05:26 Chris Hayes? transformation where everything will be video. I mean, at least for the foreseeable future, who knows? These trends change on a dime. I think it's interesting to consider what that does. The media strategy too. Okay, I'm recruiting candidates. People that can get attention. Those are going to be scarier propositions because part of attention is sometimes conflict, provocation, views that are not boring, that jump out at you, and interviews and talking to a lot of people where you might say something that is a quote unquote gaffe, or that people don't like, or offend certain people. The institutional orientation of the Democratic Party is like, yeah, no. And I think there's a great example
1:06:11 Chris Hayes? of this with Mam Donnie down the stretch. If, talk about his media. He went everywhere. He said yes to everything. He gave an interview to a Pakistani news channel in Urdu. Have you seen this? No. At some level, I was like, why are you doing this? This is down the stretch, just like in the last week. But it's like, right, maybe that gets back to Urdu speaking New Yorkers who share the clip. Like, you know, he then also goes on mainstream, he goes on alternative, he goes on subway takes, and then he does the bulwark. Now, the bulwark is like sort of a, you know, centrist, center-right, anti-Trump network. Center-left. I'm at this point. Okay, fine. It's center-left at this point. It's in the, it's in the big- I love the boy. Tim Miller is great, but uh- It's in the big Democratic- It's in the anti-Trump tent. It's in the anti-Trump- It's very strongly-
1:06:53 Chris Hayes? It's strongly in the anti-Trump tent, but it is founded by people who used to be Republicans and whose feelings about, say, Israel tend more towards the right of the Democratic coalition. And they ask him this question about this phrase, globalize the Intifada.
1:07:08 Speaker 08 Which is a very popular phrase at protests on the left. And maybe some people say that phrase with good intent, but there are certainly some people who are saying that phrase with- Violent intent. So I wonder what you think about that.
1:07:21 Chris Hayes? He gives an answer that starts off with, I thought, a very long and good thing about Jewish safety and the Jewish folks that he's talked to in New York City.
1:07:27 Zohran Mamdani? And then just a few weeks ago, I had a conversation with a Jewish man in Williamsburg, who told me that he, the same door he would keep unlocked for decades is one that he now locks out of a fear of, of what, what could happen in his own neighborhood.
1:07:43 Chris Hayes? And then he basically says, look, you know, Intifada is Arabic for struggle and that, in fact, word is used in the Holocaust Museum website to mean struggle.
1:07:52 Zohran Mamdani? The very word has been used by the Holocaust Museum when translating the Warsaw Ghetto uprising into Arabic, because it's a word that means struggle.
1:08:01 Chris Hayes? Sure.
1:08:01 Zohran Mamdani? And as a Muslim man who grew up post nine 11, I'm, I'm all too familiar in the way in which Arabic words can be twisted, can be distorted, can be used to justify any kind of meaning.
1:08:16 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:08:17 Zohran Mamdani? And I think that's, that's where it leaves me with a sense that what we need to do is, is focus on keeping Jewish New Yorkers safe. And the question of the permissibility of language is something that I, that I haven't, I haven't ventured into.
1:08:33 Chris Hayes? The headline that comes out from it, and I don't think it was a great answer, to be very clear, is refuses to condemn globalizing Intifada. And so I thought to myself, I'm like, oh, okay. So now we're seeing the cost, right? Like, we've seen the benefit, he's been everywhere, but going everywhere means you might have a news cycle where you say something like that. And I think it's pretty striking that he won anyway. Because I do think the old way of thinking is like, say no to 10 things if it means that you never have the news cycle about globalizing Intifada. And him embracing the strategy he did meant that he had a news cycle in a city with a million Jewish voters, where like people's views on this can be very strong.
1:09:14 Chris Hayes? That was all about him refusing to condemn globalizing Intifada, a kind of nightmare scenario if you're a political staffer on that campaign, a genuine nightmare scenario. That didn't have the effect that I think a lot of people would have.
1:09:28 Ezra Klein? It implies the politics of that are not what people think they are. I will say, I will only speak for myself on this. So my priors on Andrew Cuomo, I was not like an incredible fan of the governorship from afar, back when he was being talked about as a presidential candidate. And then everything that happened led to his resignation struck me as really kind of upsetting. But I was sort of, you know, I'm open to people's redemption. Like, I think you have to be open to redemption. Two things about that campaign. One was that the number of people, even people who endorsed Cuomo, who talked to me about his cruelty or his tendency for revenge.
1:10:04 Chris Hayes? That's an amazing sentence.
1:10:06 Ezra Klein? I had somebody tell me he was a sociopath and then endorse him a couple of days later. And so that was like one line that I just couldn't get over, right? Somebody who, this is the way they have treated people in public life. Like, that's a bar I don't, I want candidates to be above. But the other thing that like actually closed it, that made for me that I would not rank him, was the way he used Israel in the campaign. Like, I'm a Jewish person. I have very, very deep feelings about what is happening in Israel and Gaza. And I found it so cynical, so repulsive, just such a vicious way to weaponize, I thought, both sort of Mamdani's ethnicity.
1:10:48 Ezra Klein? But also, I don't know, what's happening in Gaza is a horror. People should be horrified. Like, the whole thing just struck me as grotesque. And I knew a lot of people for whom it read that way. The thing in the debates, where they got into a fight over like visiting Israel. What's the first country you're gonna visit, Mr. Mamdani?
1:11:09 Zohran Mamdani? I would stay in New York City. My plans are to address New Yorkers across the five boroughs and focus on that.
1:11:15 Speaker 02 Mr. Mamdani, can I just jump in? Would you visit Israel as mayor?
1:11:20 Zohran Mamdani? I've said in a UJA questionnaire that I believe that you need not travel to Israel to stand up for Jewish New Yorkers. And that is what I will be doing as the mayor. I'll be standing up for Jewish New Yorkers and I'll be meeting them wherever they are, across the five boroughs, whether that's in their synagogues and temples or at their homes or at the subway platform. Because ultimately, we need to focus on delivering on their concerns.
1:11:41 Speaker 02 And just yes or no, do you believe in a Jewish state of Israel?
1:11:44 Zohran Mamdani? I believe Israel has the right to exist.
1:11:46 Speaker 02 As a Jewish state?
1:11:47 Zohran Mamdani? As a state with equal rights.
1:11:49 Speaker 04 He won't say it has a right to exist. Does a Jewish state be very clear on that? And his answer was no, he won't visit Israel.
1:11:55 Zohran Mamdani? I said that.
1:11:56 Speaker 04 That's what he was trying to say.
1:11:57 Zohran Mamdani? No, no, no, I'm like you.
1:11:58 Ezra Klein? It was such an obvious political game.
1:12:01 Chris Hayes? Yeah. It was cynical, it was... Yeah, it was deathlessly cynical.
1:12:06 Ezra Klein? Yes.
1:12:07 Chris Hayes? And I have to say, I mean, it was also comical at a certain level. Like, my formative years were spent at, like, Shabbat dinner at my friends' houses and going to bar mitzvahs and being in this milieu of Jewish New York. And it's incredibly precious to me and I feel like incredible, like profound gratitude and affection for that. And, you know, my wives have Jewish, like, I'm not, like, doing the bona fides, but it's close to me. Like, I'm not Jewish, but it's a culture that I, like, love deeply and feel bound to. And so, yeah, I found it deathlessly cynical. It deathlessly cynical. The other thing that complicated this, and this is an interesting angle of this whole
1:12:48 Chris Hayes? thing, is that Andrew Cuomo, like me, is a paizan from New York. The guy's not Jewish.
1:12:54 Ezra Klein? Yeah. Brad Lander, who cross-endorses Mam Dany, is Jewish and very devoted to questions around Israel and justice.
1:13:00 Chris Hayes? He's also the highest-ranking Jewish official in New York City.
1:13:02 Ezra Klein? Yes. A lot of the things that happened in this campaign happened on, like, a literal level and a metaphorical, symbolic level at the same time. And one thing that I thought about that moment, when Mam Dany didn't condemn globalizing the fatah, was it had this quality of, this is what he believes. He is not going to sell out a politics and a community who he either belongs to or has very, very deep sympathy for why they feel the way they do. And with Cuomo, like, I'm not saying he does not have, like, beliefs about Israel, but it felt like the oppo researchers had come to him with a packet, and he was now going to use what was in the packet. And a lot of things are not...
1:13:45 Ezra Klein? I mean, we could talk about the popularity of different ideas, but some things are also just communicating what kind of person you are.
1:13:55 Ezra Klein? But also, I've been very interested by the way that Israel and Gaza have become highly kind of symbolic, like attentional, in both directions, right? There is the Gaza's genocide, you know, direction. And also, the people who have made themselves aggressively into like moderates, anti-leftist moderates, and you see this a bit with Cuomo, but you see it with Richie Torres, right? You see it with John Fetterman.
1:14:21 Chris Hayes? Yep.
1:14:22 Ezra Klein? Is like, the strongest and most consistent fight they pick is on Israel.
1:14:27 Chris Hayes? It's like now, weirdly, the ideological delineator.
1:14:30 Ezra Klein? Israel has become the culture war, I think, within the Democratic Party.
1:14:34 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:14:35 Ezra Klein? And if you want to really send a strong signal, like, I'm just struck by how many the signal's sent, for people who do not have a lot of power over, you know, American policy towards Israel, are sent on this issue.
1:14:48 Chris Hayes? And I think there's also an added dimension to that, which is that there's just enormous estrangement between the establishment of the party and the base of the party.
1:14:55 Ezra Klein? That's right.
1:14:56 Chris Hayes? I saw the polling on the Iran strikes, where like 85% of Democrats opposed, and I think 13% approved.
1:15:04 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
1:15:05 Chris Hayes? Now, if you looked at Democratic legislators' responses, you would not think that those were the numbers. Donald Trump really exploited a huge gap between the elites in the party and the establishment on immigration and trade and the base of the party, to tremendous effect. There is something like that in the Democratic Party right now on the issue of Israel. There is just poll after poll after poll, and I think this has to do with a bunch of complicated factors, although I think the driving factor has been the war in Gaza since October 2023. And I think you really saw it play out in this race. I mean, New York City is the most Jewish city in the country, and the most Jewish city in the world, one of the most Jewish cities in the world. Outside Tel Aviv.
1:15:48 Chris Hayes? Outside Tel Aviv, it's the second, you know, highest number of Jewish citizens. It's also like, that number fails to represent how Jewish the city is in terms of its cultural milieu and like, the fabric of New York, right? And I think it's shocking to a lot of people, and even to me, I have to say. That someone with his politics on this conflict just wanted Democratic primary.
1:16:12 Ezra Klein? And did it without shifting from that, like,
1:16:15 Chris Hayes? No.
1:16:15 Ezra Klein? He used to support defund the police and now I think says he doesn't and actually doesn't. I think he does not want to defund the police as mayor.
1:16:22 Chris Hayes? He is.
1:16:22 Ezra Klein? He held his line.
1:16:23 Chris Hayes? He is an anti Zionist, I think, and is now.
1:16:26 Ezra Klein? Right. He said like, uh, he, Israel should not be a Jewish state.
1:16:30 Chris Hayes? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think that I feel a little weird about this conversation because I really,
1:16:40 Chris Hayes? it's thorny for a million reasons, but it's also like, I respect the views of people that are closest to it. And I am not the closest to it. So I'm always kind of like trying to check that in me. So it's weird for me to be like, it's bad for the Jews. I'm not a Jew. I think the way this is developing within the Democratic Party is kind of dangerous.
1:16:59 Ezra Klein? Yeah.
1:16:59 Chris Hayes? I think the idea of like, this is a signifier of the rich elites who control everything behind closed doors, which is both an antisemitic trope and something that touches on something close to being true about how money flows in democratic politics is like a really combustible mix.
1:17:20 Ezra Klein? I think that's right, but I, I'd say two other things about it being a signifier. One is it, it's a signifier in two directions, right? It's a signifier in one direction of being willing to stick to your beliefs. That I think a lot of people in the base feel that even Democrats who actually agree with them will not say on Gaza and how bad and horrifying that has been, will not quite say it or sugarcoat it or will not vote with it. And so there is something both, again, I believe the belief is authentic to Mamdani, but, but also.
1:17:47 Chris Hayes? It's expressive.
1:17:49 Ezra Klein? Showing that you will stand up to that kind of pressure.
1:17:51 Chris Hayes? Yep.
1:17:51 Ezra Klein? Right. In the other direction, um, it's showing that you will not be cowed if you're Richie Torres's, you're Fetterman's. It's showing you not be cowed by a different thing.
1:18:00 Chris Hayes? Yes, exactly.
1:18:00 Ezra Klein? Right. Like the woke mob.
1:18:02 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:18:02 Ezra Klein? Right. So it's become a kind of declaration of independence from that. I will just say on the, the point you just made about how saying something true can veer close to saying something antisemitic. One thing I have just appreciated about Mamdani and I appreciate about the Mamdani lander alliance. I'm a Jewish person. It is very important. It is very important that it is possible and understood to be possible that you can be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. And I'm not anti-Zionist in that way. I'm like a kind of two-state solution person who doesn't really believe that that is possible. And I'm not sure like where I, what I think is plausible at this point. But putting my own politics aside, I very fundamentally believe like Mamdani is anti-Zionist
1:18:47 Ezra Klein? and not anti-Semitic. And he did a very, very, very good job, in my view, in answers of making that clear. Lander acted as a very important cross validator for him.
1:18:55 Chris Hayes? Yep.
1:18:56 Ezra Klein? But in a world where Israel is going to be as brutal as it has been in Gaza and is going to play much more of a role of like a regional hegemon militarily, which is what it has stepped into. And people are going to have very, very strong opinions, including very, very strong negative opinions on what it means for there to be roughly seven million Palestinians who do not have equal rights and are under Israeli control.
1:19:22 Chris Hayes? Yeah.
1:19:23 Ezra Klein? It is very, very, very important that you just have to be able to be against what the Israeli state has become and not anti-Semitic. I think it is an incredibly dangerous game that pro-Zionist people have played trying to conflate those things. Because if you tell people enough that to oppose Israel is to be anti-Semitic, at some point they're going to say,
1:19:46 Chris Hayes? Well, then I guess I'm anti-Semitic.
1:19:47 Ezra Klein? Well, I guess I'm anti-Semitic.
1:19:48 Chris Hayes? Yeah, that's the fear. I think that the taboo around antisemitism, which is born of the worst atrocities in human history, is like a wildly important taboo that is breaking down everywhere we look. Let's be clear. Like, that taboo is disintegrating.
1:20:03 Ezra Klein? Yes.
1:20:03 Chris Hayes? And it's disintegrating for a lot of people. And it's terrifying that it's disintegrating. And I, you know, the one thing I'll say again, and this is me like offering advice that no one asked for from the position of just like, you know, the Catholic boy from the Bronx who now lives in Brooklyn. But like, I think there's tangible, concrete things that Mamdani can do. He should be going to Borough Park and he should be going to Ocean Parkway and he should be talking to folks there and being like, we're not going to agree on Israel. Let's just say it from the beginning. I want you to feel safe and heard. I want your communities to thrive. I want the city to work for you. Let's talk about how we make that happen. And I think they're tangible. Like, there's huge security concerns. Huge. Yeah. Have you heard him on Colbert? I thought he did a very beautiful job walking that line.
1:20:48 Chris Hayes? Yeah, I agree.
1:20:49 Zohran Mamdani? You know, I remember the words of Mayor Koch, who said, "If you agree with me on nine out of 12 issues, vote for me. 12 out of 12, see a psychiatrist." And, and I had an older Jewish woman come up to me at Beni Jeshar in a synagogue many months ago after a Democratic Club forum. And she whispered in my ear, "I disagree with you on one issue. I'm pretty sure you know which one it is. And I agree with you on the others, and I'm going to be ranking you on your, on my ballot." And I say this because I know there are many New Yorkers with whom I have a disagreement about the Israeli government's policies. And also, there are many who understand that that's a disagreement still rooted in shared humanity. Because the conclusions I've come to, they are the conclusions of Israeli historians like Amos Goldberg. They are echoing the
1:21:30 Zohran Mamdani? words of an Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmair, who said just recently, "What we are doing in Gaza is a war of devastation. It is cruel. It is indiscriminate. It is limitless. It is criminal killing of civilians." These are the conclusions I've come to.
1:21:43 Ezra Klein? Stephen, I mean. And by the way. I think that is a good place to end. Also, final question. What are three books you'd recommend to the audience?
1:21:51 Chris Hayes? Um, this is an oldie but a goodie, The Name of the Rose by Umberto Eco, which is the most recent novel I've read. It was one of these things that I started, put down for months, and then took back up. And you know how you do that with novels, where you're like, I sort of remember where we are, but the book is incredible. Um, the second one is an incredible book that is not out yet, that I am able to read an advanced reader copy of. It's by Rob Malley and Hussein Agha. It's called Tomorrow's Yesterday. Just got recommended in the last episode, too. It's really something else. Partly, it's beautifully written. It's two people that have genuinely incredibly distinct.
1:22:28 Chris Hayes? Perspectives on the Israeli Palestinian conflict and who have been in the room.
1:22:31 Ezra Klein? Yes.
1:22:32 Chris Hayes? At a bunch of times. So that is a great book. And the last book is a history of the Cultural Revolution called Mao's Last Revolution by Michael Schoenhouse and Roderick MacFarquhar. And I don't know why I suddenly was seized with an interest in reading about the Cultural Revolution, except that I was looking to escape to a political environment that was like more dire and toxic than our own.
1:22:55 Ezra Klein? Do reading?
1:22:56 Chris Hayes? So I was like, for some reason, like scrambled that and I read, that book's amazing, although, I mean, my God, sort of suffocating in some ways to be inside that universe. And then there are like a few whiffs of familiarity that are unnerving.
1:23:15 Ezra Klein? Chris Hayes, always such a pleasure, man. Thank you.
1:23:17 Chris Hayes? Loved it.
1:23:37 Ezra Klein? This episode of the Ezra Klein Show is produced by Roland Hu and Jack McCordick. Fact checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary March Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show's production team also includes Marie Cassillon, Elias Isquith, Marina King, Annie Galvin, Jan Kobal and Chris Tinlin. Weave original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Sami-Lusky and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser.
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