Michael Sweet (Stryper) | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Michael Sweet joins Billy Corgan to revisit his band Stryper’s unlikely rise from the Sunset Strip to MTV—with an openly professed faith in God at the center of it all. Sweet recalls crossing paths with Ratt, Mötley Crüe, and W. A. S. P., becoming in the 1980’s metal’s unmistakable black-and-yellow outsiders; whilst facing resistance from both the rock world and the church. He considers whether the band’s faith may have kept them from becoming even bigger and revisits the awkward moment David Cassidy spotted him somewhere a Christian rocker probably shouldn’t have been. Sweet explains why today he feels more driven than ever to keep creating. With his latest solo album, The Master Plan, and Stryper’s newest Throne of Thorns, he isn’t slowing down anytime soon. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The holidays start early at Lowe's. Put some presents under the tree early this year with gifts under $25 like the Carhartt knit beanie. Then take it outside with inflatables that turn your yard into a picture perfect holiday backdrop. Get the three and a half foot gingerbread Mickey inflatable for just $34.98. From gifts that make them smile to outdoor decor that brings joy to the whole neighborhood. The holidays are on now at Lowe's in store and online. While supplies last, selection varies by location.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  With the Amex Gold Card, earn four times points at restaurants and enjoy every night out to the fullest. Apply today at americanexpress.com/explore-gold. Terms and points cap apply.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  I just stay on my path, man. I've got tunnel vision and it's just how I'm built.

• 0:52Billy Corgan?

  A heavy metal band that's singing about Jesus in 1984 or whatever, that is a, that is very outside the line that was going.

• 1:01Speaker 02

  God was doing some great things with the band and through the band.

• 1:05Billy Corgan?

  They're really metal, they're really good, they wear stripes, but they're really into Jesus.

• 1:10Speaker 02

  We got caught up in, you know, the rock music scene and stopped going to church.

• 1:16Billy Corgan?

  And you've touched the highest heights of the music business.

• 1:19Speaker 02

  I'd go home every night, I'd take a shower, there's spiders washing out of my hair. That, that freaked me out more than anything.

• 1:25Billy Corgan?

  What do we need to know about the Cranberries? It's like, is there a secret?

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Oh my God, there's a lot.

• 1:32Billy Corgan?

  Michael Sweet, thank you so much for being here. A real pleasure to have you on my podcast.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Incredible honor to be here.

• 1:38Billy Corgan?

  Truly. So you're, I just met your lovely wife. You guys are busy. I mean, you got, you got, you just put out a faith album, which is Master Plan.

• 1:47Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:47Billy Corgan?

  That came out, these don't always come out. So we're talking 2026, but by the time this comes out, this stuff is out. So Master Plan is out and then as we're speaking, the Stryper album is about to come out, which is called Throne of Thorns.

• 2:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a tongue, tongue twister.

• 2:01Billy Corgan?

  Throne of Thorns. Say that fast, three times. And you're also doing a lot of touring on the Isaiah 53, five tour. Is that accurate?

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Well, if that's the name of the tour, I'm learning that right now, but that's a great title for it.

• 2:17Billy Corgan?

  That's what it said.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  So that's also, most Stryper fans know that, that's a scripture that we found to go along with our.

• 2:28Billy Corgan?

  Do you know the scripture off the top of your head? Can I read it?

• 2:31Speaker 02

  You can read, absolutely read it. I know it, but please read it.

• 2:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay. But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our inequities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him and by his stripes, we are healed.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Yep. Meaning obviously what Christ went through on the cross, we are healed, we are saved.

• 2:53Billy Corgan?

  Starting to interrupt you, I didn't know what stripes meant in a biblical context, but I looked it up and, and is, is it, am I right in understanding? It's, it's basically the marks that he got in his, in his way.

• 3:02Speaker 02

  The lashings that he took being beaten. And that's, you know, interestingly enough, before we were Stryper, the stripes had no significance. They were just stripes. Everything was yellow and black and we had stripes. We were, we were called Rocks regime. This is back in 82, 83.

• 3:20Billy Corgan?

  Right.

• 3:21Speaker 02

  And once we became Stryper, when we signed with Enigma Records, we found that scripture and everything started to make sense.

• 3:30Billy Corgan?

  I always thought it was connected, so.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  It wasn't originally because we weren't, we became Christians at an early age, walked away, got out of church, got into the whole LA club scene, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

• 3:44Billy Corgan?

  Don't skip past that, we'll get to that in a second.

• 3:45Speaker 02

  And, and then, then we became Stryper, we dedicated our lives and that's when it all made sense.

• 3:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 3:53Billy Corgan?

  So you came into my life, soldiers, soldiers under command.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:59Billy Corgan?

  I had that record.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 4:01Billy Corgan?

  Because I heard, I heard there's this new band. So this is what I heard on the street when I was a kid. So what year was this, 85?

• 4:08Speaker 02

  1985.

• 4:09Billy Corgan?

  All I heard was, there's this great new band and they wear stripes. Oh, and they're, and they're really into God.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Oh yeah.

• 4:17Billy Corgan?

  Can you imagine like, you know, cause I would, so I was like, whatever, 17 years old in that year. So, so all you hear is like, hey, they're really metal, they're really good. They wear stripes, but they're really into Jesus. It was a weird thing to hear, you know, in Chicago.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Very, I can imagine, very weird.

• 4:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So, um, uh,

• 4:40Billy Corgan?

  and Michael Wagner produced that.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Michael Wagner produced that album and that was a moment in our musical career, uh, journey that, that blew our minds that we got to work with Michael Wagner. Cause he was, he was the guy at the time.

• 4:54Billy Corgan?

  He was the guy. He's, in many ways, he still is the guy.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 4:59Billy Corgan?

  Cause I don't, in my opinion, no one's ever kind of bested his vision. Of almost kind of melodic metal and is that a fair thing, do you think?

• 5:07Speaker 02

  I, I think so, absolutely. And at the time when we first met Michael, I mean, we were intimidated, we were kids, you know, we were young, we're like, oh my gosh, Michael Wagner.

• 5:15Billy Corgan?

  Even his name has a kind of.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  It was very intimidating. He came to see us perform live at Knott's Berry Farm in Buena Park. And I'll never forget, we were so nervous, it was unreal, we could hardly perform, at least speaking for myself. And having met him, he loved us, we loved him. We went in and we recorded at Amigo, which is where our favorite band of all time, Van Halen, huge influence, uh, recorded. So we were like, what is happening here?

• 5:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  And we made an album very quickly. We recorded that album in about a week, a little over a week. Drums were done in one day, one night, you know, that sort of thing. And it was interesting, I remember, I recall, I can see it now in my mind. We were playing that album out every night for a good year. So everything was one take and we would, Michael would hit record and we would do the track and he would go, yeah, great. And this was how the whole album was made.

• 6:16Billy Corgan?

  But I, I watched a clip of you guys from back in the day and you guys played really good live. So I can see it because you sound very record like, and like a lot of the other bands that, that really benefited from that type of production. You guys sort of had your stuff together.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  We work hard and I'm the slave driver.

• 6:34Billy Corgan?

  We'll get to that too. I, I have a similar reputation.

• 6:40Billy Corgan?

  I just want to make a sort of interesting point because, you know, when I'm putting together the questions I want to ask guests, you know, there's a sort of kind of flow, but I thought this is a good way to sort of set the whole conversation up, right? Going back to me as a kid hearing like, they're really into Jesus. The only other time I'd really heard that from a musician that I was interested in was Mark Farner of Grand Phone.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Oh yeah.

• 7:02Billy Corgan?

  Cause at some point Mark had, had, you know.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Became a Christian.

• 7:05Billy Corgan?

  Born again or whatever. And, and I remember people talking about it dismissively. And I even remember some metal fans talking about you guys dismissively, like, you know, yeah, but they're into God or whatever, you know, it's like this vibe. But I always think it's funny because, um, as somebody who listened to Merzal, Fate, Slayer and Stryper at the same time, it, it strikes me odd that, that, um, nobody really blanches at listening to, uh, death metal or scary or satanic metal or, you know, whatever. But somehow, somehow God in the mix is like, whoa, hold on, let's slow down.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  You're preaching to the choir and I've said this in interviews in, in different ways.

• 7:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  I, my, my, my little brain will never comprehend that. And yet at the same time, I understand it because we live in a, in a.

• 7:54Billy Corgan?

  But what do you think that is?

• 7:55Speaker 02

  We live in a world that is, you know, sinful and somewhat closed minded. There's something about once God is introduced into music, people, not all people, but many people tend to instantly do this. Like, I don't want to hear it.

• 8:10Billy Corgan?

  What do you think it is about a teenage mind that, that, cause I guess I'm going back to my own times in the eighties, but this idea that like, it was cool to listen to something that was scary, but somehow it was, it was instantly repulsive to some, not all, obviously, that, that somehow embracing, uh, biblical themes or Jesus or anything like that was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. That's not, that's not for me. Is it the idea that something is being preached?

• 8:37Speaker 02

  I think so. I think the scary side isn't telling you that some of what you're doing is wrong. And you, you might want to or need to change your ways. But the godly side is telling you that. And as a teenager, who wants to do that? You're rebelling, you want to go have fun and, and party it up. And I know, cause I did that and I get it.

• 9:00Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 02

  But, uh, that didn't stop us. We, we made a decision to do that at the age of 20. I just started rewriting the lyrics. There's a lot to the story, but.

• 9:14Billy Corgan?

  Can you, can we just, sorry, because I think it, I find these moments fascinating.

• 9:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 9:21Billy Corgan?

  Let's start here because Sunset Strip, right? I mean, that is a legendary time and you were there.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:28Billy Corgan?

  Like you were there during those halcyon days of, you know, people hanging flyers and the girls' hair and the guys' hair teased out here. And, you know, I mean, so just take me back to that moment, just from a musical standpoint. I mean, the, the, the, the sex and drugs part is interesting and sometimes it's in movies, but I'm more interested in the musical component. Because as I made the point when Tommy Lee was here and in private conversations I've had with Nikki Sixx, this idea of like glam metals kind of underpinnings and somehow into hard rock.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 10:00Billy Corgan?

  This idea of kind of, on some level simplifying some of the hard rock that had come before out of bands like Rainbow and whatever. Like, sure. Cause Ritchie Blackmore, like, you know, who I love Rainbow, I don't know if you're a Rainbow fan.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  Huge Rainbow, Deep Purple and Rainbow.

• 10:14Billy Corgan?

  I mean, amazing, right? So, but if you, if you think about Rainbow and you think you even like deal with Rainbow, even in other iterations.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 10:23Billy Corgan?

  You know, there's, it's, it's, it's, it's melodic in a way that's almost like, you know, Renaissance fare at times, you know, there's a lot of melody going on. And I'm not saying there's not melody in, in what became classic Sunset Strip metal. Whether it's you guys or Dokken or Rad or whatever, but there's a simplifying down.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 10:41Billy Corgan?

  Where you stop moving the bass around.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  It's simplified.

• 10:43Billy Corgan?

  You've got a riff that's moving around like crazy on, in A, but, but the bass is.

• 10:48Speaker 02

  The bass was like just A to L, staying, staying on the root, you're just driving.

• 10:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, Michael Anthony.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  Which is awesome.

• 10:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, but that's my point is something about that change and where glam came in. So you got almost like glam melodies on top of complicated metal riffs, but somehow simplifying the bass and suddenly it all congeals in LA.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:07Billy Corgan?

  In this unique moment. So can you just take me back to that atmosphere musically?

• 11:10Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I just happened to, I'm from Los Angeles. I was born in Whittier. So I was in the scene. I was born into the scene and at the age of, you know, 16, 17, 18, I was there with my brother. My brother's three years older, Robert. He's the drummer. And we were just, you know, brought up in a musical family and always taught to work hard and don't give up. My dad used to say all the time to us, you're on the brink of superstardom. And we used to laugh at that because it, it became, it sounded funny.

• 11:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  But dad was always the ultimate encourager and.

• 11:48Billy Corgan?

  But he had success in music.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  My dad did. He, he wrote a number one song in 76 called, I don't want to have to marry you with Fred Imus, Don Imus's brother.

• 11:58Billy Corgan?

  Oh, okay.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  And he worked for the railroad and my dad's dream was always to pursue music, but life didn't allow him to do that.

• 12:06Billy Corgan?

  So he was very supportive of the dream.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  Incredibly.

• 12:09Billy Corgan?

  That's amazing.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Gave us every garage, bought us gear. He encouraged my brother to try me out. When I was, you know, 12 years old, almost 13, I was just a punk kid and my brother was 15, more serious about music, more mature, obviously. And he kept on my brother to do that. My brother said, no, no, no. And finally he did. And the rest is history.

• 12:35Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  I might not be sitting here talking to you.

• 12:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  But anyway, ultimately Hollywood, growing up in that scene, I was just in the right place at the right time, really. And it was a movement because you saw all these bands. We could, we would perform with Mickey Rat, Rat.

• 12:49Billy Corgan?

  Early version of Rat.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then we walked down the street and we would see Motley Crue. And then we'd walk down to the Troubadour and we'd see Wasp. And then we'd go back to Gazharis and we'd perform again. So it was just, we were in it.

• 13:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:02Speaker 02

  And it was just an explosive, very special time in music that I don't think will ever be repeated. And the thing about the eighties, as much as I love it, it was simplified. I don't want to say dumbed down, but a lot of the bands from the seventies, it was much more thought out. There was a lot, it was much more complex, I think, in terms of the arrangement.

• 13:23Billy Corgan?

  If Jimmy Page was the, the archetypal guitar god for hard rock and heavy metal.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 13:29Billy Corgan?

  No, no band had greater gravitas with guitar players and bands than Zeppelin, right? So somehow it got sort of not dumbed down, but simplified into something that made for a lot of popular music to come. But it didn't come from a desire to be popular in the sense of getting on the radio. Nobody thought they were going to get on the radio.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  No. So it came from. And maybe didn't even care. We didn't care.

• 13:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 13:52Speaker 02

  I mean, we just loved to play and write. My, all I cared about was writing music. I didn't sit in the corner of the garage and just write all night.

• 13:59Billy Corgan?

  But, but from your, but because, you know, even your earliest music, there's that, there's that signature of that sort of what we would call an LA sound.

• 14:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 14:08Billy Corgan?

  There's that, was there somebody that you looked at and said, I want to do that? Or was it?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  No, I mean, I'm just being honest.

• 14:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you know, I'm just curious.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  If there was, I would say that band or that artist. No, we grew up incredibly eclectic music. My dad would come home from the railroad, start playing music and he'd start with opera.

• 14:27Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  Caruso. He'd move into Mario Alonso, he loved. Then he'd start getting into 50s rock, then into 60s, classic country, you know? My dad listened to it all. And then my dad would end with Sabbath. My dad liked Sabbath too. Loved it. My dad was watching Journey one night. I went out, I woke up to go get water and he's watching Journey perform Wheel in the Sky. And he said, Hey, Mike, come sit down with me. And he's like, check out this new band. I'm like, who are these guys?

• 14:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  But my dad was a big influence. So if, if I'd have to choose any one or anything, it'd be my dad.

• 15:04Billy Corgan?

  But even if you think about Wheel in the Sky, right? What's interesting is Roy Thomas Baker produced that record, who had produced Queen, right? When I worked with Roy about 20 years ago, God rest his soul, he's gone now. I said to Roy, like, that sound, that's in the Wheel in the Sky, that's the sound of that chorus. How many vocals are on that? 24. You know, he'd do, he'd do three part harmony times eight.

• 15:29Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:29Billy Corgan?

  And stack them all into one mic, right?

• 15:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. We did all that stuff.

• 15:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But I'm saying is that's an interesting influence, right? Just poking around and influences. Like if you heard that, like you wouldn't think Wheel in the Sky would be a big influence on what's to come, but it does.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And that's, that's what makes, sets Stryper apart. And this isn't to put us on a pedestal or anything like that. I'm just simply stating that we would listen to Judas Priest and Maiden for hours.

• 15:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  Deep Purple. And then we would move into Journey, Loverboy, Survivor.

• 16:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  We loved that side of rock as much as we did the metal side of rock.

• 16:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there's been an interesting balance in your music between high musical integrity and melodicism.

• 16:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 16:19Billy Corgan?

  Which, as you know, not a lot of those bands could find the balance.

• 16:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:23Billy Corgan?

  They, they did when they knew how to write ballads for MTV, but that's a different story. But you also write in your own stuff too. You weren't running out and using outside writers.

• 16:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I was just, there's a weird, it's, my mind is, is just a little odd. I'm kind of, it's a, it's a little bit of a blessing and it's a little bit of a curse in the sense that I'm always thinking about a song.

• 16:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  If I have to go to the market, my wife Lisa sends me out to get 10 things. I come back with four or five. And she's like, you forgot this. I'm like, ah darn, sorry. You know, because I was thinking of a song or humming a melody into my phone. It's just the way my mind works.

• 17:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So I read a story and, you know, please correct me, but this is my memory of reading about it. But you just said, this one night, you're sort of on the Sunset Strip somewhere. You're standing outside, you know, drink in hand, maybe there's a cigarette in your hand too. And this guy comes walking by, you know, the classic street preacher guy or whatever.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:20Billy Corgan?

  Carrying a cross.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:21Billy Corgan?

  And condemning everyone for their.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Arthur Blessed.

• 17:23Billy Corgan?

  For, for their sins, you know, not only there, but to come.

• 17:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 17:28Billy Corgan?

  And that sort of, that becomes this moment where you stop, you know, stop that moment in time. It, it, it registers in your brain that something's missing or you need to do something. So if you want to take the story from there.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, basically the true story. We were playing Gazharis and Troubadour and Whiskey. And then we were hanging out on the strip every weekend for quite a long time. And having not gone to church in a long time, you know, and coming out of the church.

• 17:55Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, but your dad had like Jimmy's, under Jimmy Swaggart's influence, sort of born again, mid seventies.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Yep. Southern Baptist.

• 18:04Billy Corgan?

  And how did you, as a kid, and you're going to Baptist church, which is its own, its own heavy metal movie, right?

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 18:11Billy Corgan?

  Exactly. But point is, is how did you feel as a young Christian? Did you, were you attracted to religion or God or formality? Like, how did you feel in earlier years before you had your own?

• 18:25Speaker 02

  I was, I was attracted to it. It was a family thing. We literally, my brother started watching Jimmy Swaggart, then my dad with my brother, then my mom with my dad and my brother, and then the whole family. And we literally started watching him. And, and what we were drawn to really was, he sounded like Elvis when he sang.

• 18:43Billy Corgan?

  Wasn't he, was he, he was, he was Jerry Lee Lewis's cousin.

• 18:48Speaker 02

  Yep. And he played piano like Jerry Lee Lewis.

• 18:51Billy Corgan?

  I used to watch Jimmy Swaggart do.

• 18:52Speaker 02

  And Mickey Gilly is his third cousin.

• 18:54Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  They all play that style of piano. And we loved the music. So we were drawn to music because we're a very musical family. And then we got into church. We became Christians, dedicated our lives, became part of the music team. And then I got kind of bored with it, my brother and I. We got caught up in, you know, the rock music scene.

• 19:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  And stopped going to church.

• 19:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:16Speaker 02

  And then we got caught up in everything else that goes along with the rock music scene, you know? And after Arthur Blessed came up to me and was preaching to me, I was listening to what he was saying, but I was also saying, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know. I already know all this stuff. I know it. Talk to you guys later. I didn't really want to absorb it.

• 19:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Because that was my own, you know, whatever you want to call it.

• 19:41Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm smiling because I had a similar experience in the eighties.

• 19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. I just didn't want to hear it, but I knew he was right. But I'm like, no, I don't need to hear that. So I went about my way.

• 19:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Speaker 02

  I went about my way. And then at the age of 20, a few years later, another friend came into our studio that we had hung out with, partied with and all that. And he, he was glowing. He looked like a different person. I can't even describe it. Just glowing. And he said, hey, guys, I'm going to tell you right now. He goes, I'm a Christian now. He goes, I know you guys have gone down that path and you're not now, but listen, if you give your band to God, he's going to do things that you never even dreamed of. And that's what started the process for me.

• 20:26Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  And it kind of blew my mind. And I literally just went in. I remember the other guys were a little reluctant. And I went in and came out the next morning and I rewrote lyrics to two or three songs. I said, here we go. We're doing this. And we just did it.

• 20:39Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  It was insane.

• 20:41Billy Corgan?

  Because.

• 20:43Billy Corgan?

  I mean, it just strikes me, you know, as musicians, we're certainly aware of other people's opinions. And especially at that particular time, making that kind of decision and say, okay, now we're going to sort of represent that.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:56Billy Corgan?

  Not we're going to hide it in our lyrics and sort of just play along like we're going to come out and say, this is who we are. This is what we believe in.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 21:03Billy Corgan?

  And we're going to sort of fly this as the banner over our musical life.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 21:07Billy Corgan?

  That's a huge decision.

• 21:09Speaker 02

  And I'm not going to lie, it was scary. Because.

• 21:14Billy Corgan?

  I know this might be the most obvious question in the world. And you might have the most obvious answer in the world. But what gave you the faith to make that kind of decision? Because when you're young and you, you know, you guys were a good band right out of the gates. You know, you know what you're risking. You're not just risking.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 21:31Billy Corgan?

  Some guy from another band making fun of you.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  I know.

• 21:34Billy Corgan?

  You're risking like, this may blow our whole dream.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  And never getting signed, never, never breaking, all that stuff. And we knew that. We didn't talk about it, but we knew it. My personality is the kind of guy, I'm the kind of guy that will just do it.

• 21:53Billy Corgan?

  All in.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  All in. That's just the way I am. And I can't change that about myself. And I think because of the way I am, I drive other people around me crazy.

• 22:06Billy Corgan?

  Well, they're still here. They still love you.

• 22:13Billy Corgan?

  How did the, how did the other bands that knew you in a kind of more secular frame? You know, they, because, you know, whether musicians talk, they all assume that everybody's kind of pointed in the same direction.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 22:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, we're all in it for the same reasons. Guns, girls, fast cars, whatever.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:29Billy Corgan?

  Record deals.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 22:30Billy Corgan?

  When you make this shift, and even your label, Enigma, said they, they kind of heard about it and they were like, ah, we're cool with it. But even then they had a sort of, there had to be at least be a moment where somebody said, do we want to do this?

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. With Enigma, and I still find this hard to believe, I don't know how this happened, but we did a showcase for them. And they came out to see us play in a warehouse and literally some of our songs were like, da, da, da, Jesus is the way, I mean, during a break. So you, you can't miss it. You can't miss it. And, and somehow they, they missed it. I don't know how that happened, but.

• 23:06Billy Corgan?

  That's, that's God.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  When we turn in the.

• 23:11Billy Corgan?

  There's got to be some Bible passage like, God will cover their ears.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  Well, we turned in the lyrics, that's when they, they didn't miss it. And they were like, wait a second here.

• 23:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  What is this?

• 23:22Billy Corgan?

  Did you get a phone call?

• 23:23Speaker 02

  We, we got a phone call and they were skeptical about signing us at that, in that moment. But it was brief and it passed, thank God, and they signed us. They took a chance, the Heim brothers, who are fantastic, Bill and Wes. And once the album came out, the yellow and black attack, it sold like 150,000 copies in two weeks. And that was it. It was like, hey, all right, you got, man.

• 23:49Billy Corgan?

  We love.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  This is wild. And that's not to take away anything from them.

• 23:53Billy Corgan?

  No, no, no, I'm just, I'm just laughing along. I'm laughing because I just know how music scenes work and how people are. And.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:01Billy Corgan?

  Especially in insecure times, like who's going to be the next band? Who's going to get signed?

• 24:05Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 24:05Billy Corgan?

  People get very.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 24:07Billy Corgan?

  The money and reputations and what are other people going to think?

• 24:11Speaker 02

  And you can understand that because it's business is business. So I get it.

• 24:15Billy Corgan?

  I guarantee you that, you know, my band didn't get signed at different times because the A and R guy who was interested, who had come to the show.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:23Billy Corgan?

  Probably asked a buddy and the buddy said, eh. I mean, they're just as susceptible to reputational sort of pressure as anything else.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 24:30Billy Corgan?

  And signing a heavy metal band that's singing about Jesus in 1984 or whatever, that is a, that is very outside the, the line that was going.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Very.

• 24:40Billy Corgan?

  So, um, I mean, it's just, I don't want to pick on Tommy, I love Tommy Lee, but I just, you know, in my mind is like, bro, like, you know, like, was there, was there, that'd be somebody that pulled you, like, bro, what are you guys doing? Like, did you have those conversations?

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Here's the thing.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  We didn't have conversations per se.

• 24:58Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 24:59Speaker 02

  But it was more of a vibe and a spirit and a thickness you could cut with a knife. Like, we'd walk in before that and, hey, what's up, guys? You know, then we walk in after that and like, hey, what's going on guys? You know, that kind of thing. It was more of that.

• 25:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  Feeling.

• 25:18Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  We're the black sheep. There's no question about it, of the, of the metal.

• 25:25Billy Corgan?

  The black, the black and the yellow.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  The black and the yellow sheep.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  But I'm.

• 25:32Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so one step beyond that, music comes out, you're successful instantly and you guys are a great band. So that, that doesn't surprise me. But still, is somebody in the back of their mind thinking, do you need to tone this down? Do you need to, is there any pressure, not from Enigma, obviously, but is there any pressure even from the media?

• 25:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, we, we got more so pressure from the Christian side.

• 25:55Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 25:58Billy Corgan?

  Like, why are you playing with the heathens?

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, sometimes that, but more so things like when Tell with the Devil came out, the original cover had four angels sending the devil Satan into the pit. They're, they're pushing him down into the pit and they're ripping a pentagram necklace away from his neck and slinging it. And you can see the chain coming from Satan's neck and, and the pentagram up here. And the fact that there was a pentagram on the album, the Christian chains wouldn't carry it. They said, we're not putting that in our stores.

• 26:32Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I see.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  So things like that.

• 26:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  We had to face quite, quite a lot.

• 26:39Billy Corgan?

  Now, I'm laughing because I, I had a line in one of my songs in the nineties that God is empty, just like me. And the Christians were after me for a while.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Oh, I bet. I can imagine.

• 26:51Billy Corgan?

  I mean, I'd meet them in parking lots and, and I'd be like, you know, I'm, I am a Christian, right?

• 26:57Billy Corgan?

  Like, I'm on your team.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  They, they go after what they don't understand.

• 27:01Billy Corgan?

  God bless. Listen, I've been, what's the famous church that protests you?

• 27:06Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh, there's quite a few of them.

• 27:07Billy Corgan?

  But the, the famous one. You know, they'll show up at your show and.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Jimmy Swaggart did that for quite a while, the protest.

• 27:14Billy Corgan?

  I can't think of the name of the church.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:16Billy Corgan?

  I was so, I was so honored when they protested.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  And I know, I know what it is on the tip of my tongue. Yeah. Oh, yeah, of course.

• 27:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  You know, you're doing something right. If they're out protesting you.

• 27:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, I think my argument, my argument to them at the time, at least I'm going back to my 28 year old brain was like, look, I'm, I'm a Christian and I believe in God.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:37Billy Corgan?

  So what you're doing is actually pushing me away.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 27:42Billy Corgan?

  Instead of embracing and saying, you might want to look at this differently, or maybe you're leading people the wrong way. Or.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 27:49Billy Corgan?

  Is there, was there be a better way to put it? And I remember that my, my sort of, you know, my, my mic drop moment to all, anybody from a religious side that's ever come after me was.

• 27:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:59Billy Corgan?

  If God made me.

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:01Billy Corgan?

  Then how wrong can I be? And on the same token, I'm not assuming you're wrong. You see, if we're all, if we're all kind of pointing in the same direction here.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Yep. It comes down to love for me. It, it, most of the time, maybe even all of the time, when people go out and protest shows, it's not really in love. It's, it's, it's through a whole different side, quite the opposite of love. And like, as I was saying, Jimmy Swaggart, he sent his people out to protest our shows.

• 28:30Billy Corgan?

  Jimmy Swaggart?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Jimmy Swaggart.

• 28:31Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, this would happen in 1986, seven, eight.

• 28:35Billy Corgan?

  And here you are, you actually have a connection to the.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And what we would do, we thought it would be great to say, hey, let's go outside and meet them. And, and offer them tickets.

• 28:45Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:45Speaker 02

  So we would, we'd say, have you ever seen us? And they'd say, no. We'd say, well, what, here's a ticket. Why don't you come see us?

• 28:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  And then, once you see us and know what we're about, then you can give your full.

• 28:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, sure.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Definition of what you think we are. But they would never do it.

• 29:00Billy Corgan?

  I love this, I don't know if it came from you guys, heavenly metal?

• 29:05Billy Corgan?

  Was that your own marketing?

• 29:06Speaker 02

  It came from maybe us directly or maybe an outlet that we've worked with.

• 29:10Billy Corgan?

  That, that's a good one.

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Heavenly metal.

• 29:12Billy Corgan?

  So in this, in this, in this nascent period where, you know, the Sunset Strip metal, whatever that conversion is, you got Doc and Rat, like suddenly you all start having success.

• 29:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:23Billy Corgan?

  What was your commercial aspiration at the time?

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Oh, gosh, my, my, I was really inspired.

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Albums that come to mind immediately are Boston.

• 29:37Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  First Boston album, it was a huge influence on me. And I wanted to, that made, changed me as a musician. So really not any bands around me at the time, but more so, you know, the first Boston album that I bought with my own money. And that changed my life as a musician. So that's an album that changed my life. Another album would be the Van Halen album. I know you're not asking for albums specifically.

• 30:01Billy Corgan?

  No, no, no, I, I love it all. So it's all good.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Boston, Van Halen, Judas Priest. My, my sister was driving me to school. I was a sophomore in high school and I turned on the radio and there was Judas Priest, Unleashed in the East, Diamonds and Rust.

• 30:17Billy Corgan?

  Greatest live album of all time.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  And I was like, what is this? And I was a different singer before that, before I heard that. I never hit any high notes, no high notes.

• 30:29Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Nope. I heard that, I went home, I started working on my high end and my high notes.

• 30:34Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  And I developed a higher range, off a registered, nowhere near the level of Halford, but it's.

• 30:42Billy Corgan?

  Rob's just, that's, that's not fair.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  It's, it's not fair.

• 30:46Billy Corgan?

  Rob's hitting high.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  It's insanity.

• 30:49Billy Corgan?

  I mean, what's the famous thing, like, you know, if you're an opera singer, you get a high C, Rob hits like high E's.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, it's crazy.

• 30:54Billy Corgan?

  Hits like notes that aren't.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  And he still sounds great and he's 70 some odd years old.

• 30:57Billy Corgan?

  The best, the best.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  So those, those are albums that really altered my life, Boston, Van Halen.

• 31:03Billy Corgan?

  So in your mind, you're, that's your brain space. Is that what you're saying?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And you hear bits and pieces of those, but I also was heavily influenced by bands later on in life, like Jellyfish.

• 31:14Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Love Jellyfish. I love the Beatles. Like, there's a lot of, in our music, if you were to really break it down, you'll hear a lot of those chord progressions and harmonies going from major to minor and weird things like that. And I just, I'm not your typical, uh, heavy metal guy.

• 31:32Billy Corgan?

  Well, listen, I listened to a bunch of your music in, in preparing to talk to you. And, and it'd be interesting, I'd be like, you know, let's call it your typical metal thing. Cool riff, you know, the band's rocking out and you get to some chorus and it's like, whoa, what's this? Like it's written to some other territory.

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 31:48Billy Corgan?

  I think that's very distinctive to your music.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  And I love that. I like going somewhere else. I'm not, I've never been a fan of albums without naming names, where every song kind of sounds like a continuation of the last song. I, I, I like things that are a little more mixed up and, you know.

• 32:08Billy Corgan?

  As one, as one metal artist once said to me, I've done 14 albums in a.

• 32:13Speaker 02

  And for some bands, it works. You know, let's say it AC/DC.

• 32:17Billy Corgan?

  For that particular band, it has worked.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  It works, but typically I'm not drawn to that kind of music.

• 32:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, I get it. I'm with you on that, that feeling. You can tell a lot about a neighborhood by its small businesses. I love walking into a local shop and finding something I haven't seen everywhere else. The selection feels more personal, and you can tell the owner actually has a point of view. That's what makes you want to come back. And that's where FAIRE comes in. FAIRE is a B2B wholesale marketplace that connects independent retailers with over 100,000 unique brands worldwide. It makes finding products and handling orders easier with 60-day interest-free payment terms for eligible retailers and free returns on first orders with every brand. That gives small businesses more flexibility and less risk when trying something new.

• 33:03Billy Corgan?

  Sign up today and get 50% off your first wholesale order, up to $100 at FAIRE.com/magnificent. That's FAIRE.com/magnificent. Terms may apply.

• 33:20Billy Corgan?

  You ever call a business, get sent to a voicemail that sounds like it was recorded in 2015, and just hang up? It happened to me the other day when I was calling a local repair company about some work I needed done. I got frustrated, hung up, and called someone else. Well, that missed call could have been the next great customer. Today's episode is brought to you by QUO, spelled Q-U-O. The business phone system built so you never miss a call. QUO keeps your calls, texts, and voicemails in one place, so your whole team can see the conversation and respond quickly. Its optional, built-in AI agent can even handle after-hour calls, answer questions, and book appointments. Setup takes just minutes. You can keep your existing number, and there's no IT hassle. Money's on the line. Always say hello with QUO.

• 34:06Billy Corgan?

  Try QUO for free. Plus, get 20% off your first six months when you go to QUO.com/magnificent. That's Q-U-O.com/magnificent. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. They make it super simple. Pop over to progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with coverage options tailored to your choices. Plus, you'll see which discounts you may qualify for, like the online quote discount or savings for paying in full. In fact, 99% of Progressive Auto customers earn at least one discount.

• 34:50Billy Corgan?

  See if you could save when you switch to Progressive. You'll feel good about making a savvy choice. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy an extra cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company affiliates, national average 12-month savings of $946 by new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings vary.

• 35:14Speaker 04

  There's nothing like the American Express Platinum Card. Find out your welcome offer after you apply, which could be as high as 175,000 points. Learn more and find out your offer at americanexpress.com/explore-platinum. Terms apply.

• 35:28Speaker 05

  This is Christine Coe from the Edit Your Life podcast. Decluttering is tricky for a number of reasons, and one of the big ones is the physical act of getting stuff out of your home. And I have a great solution if this is the case for you. 1-800-GOT-JUNK, which helps get unwanted items out of your home or business. The process couldn't be easier. Just pop in your zip code on the website and see what the next availability is. When I did this on a Sunday, there were same-day pickup available in very short order. All you need to do after you book your time is point at the stuff you want gone, and their friendly team handles everything else, lifting, hauling, and sweeping up when they're done. It's an easy, fast way to reclaim your space without breaking a sweat.

• 36:11Speaker 05

  This is also a genius option if you have older loved ones who are downsizing, but the moving of stuff is a key hindrance to the process. Once your items are loaded into the truck, they recycle the recyclables and donate the donatables, so as much junk as possible is diverted from landfills. Are you ready to check this out? Book your free in-person estimate today. Call 1-800-GOT-JUNK or visit 1-800-GOT-JUNK.com. Again, that's 1-800-GOT-JUNK or visit 1-800-GOT-JUNK.com to book your free in-person estimate today.

• 36:45Billy Corgan?

  I want to talk a little bit about guitar influences, because I saw a note where, and tell me if this is true, that you bought Steven Pearce's white, was it a Jackson Charvel?

• 36:54Speaker 02

  Gibson, Gibson Flying V.

• 36:56Billy Corgan?

  Okay, Gibson Flying V. And that was the original black and gold.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  Well, his was white. When I bought it from him, it was white, and he used that on Akazaris when we played with them.

• 37:07Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  Steven used to play a lot more guitar.

• 37:10Billy Corgan?

  Do you still have the guitar?

• 37:11Speaker 02

  I do not.

• 37:13Billy Corgan?

  Sad love. I just like, I want to.

• 37:15Speaker 02

  Kicking myself in the butt on that. I do not. But what happened was, God bless my brother, I love him. But Robert, my brother, was the visual guy, and I was always the musical guy. And every guitar I got, Robert would be like, hey, can I tape it up? Can I make it black and yellow? And I'd be like, yeah, here you go. But seeing that white V become yellow and black, oh. Had a gold top Les Paul, he made yellow and black, you know? Taping Man of War and all that stuff. Yeah.

• 37:47Billy Corgan?

  Quick shout out, because I saw where you cited, is it, is it the guitar player from White Lion? I can never say his name.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Oh, Vito Bratta.

• 37:54Billy Corgan?

  Vito Bratta, great guitar player.

• 37:56Speaker 02

  One of my all-time favorites.

• 37:57Billy Corgan?

  But I liked what you were saying about how, because he is unique that way. He composes solos in a way that's sort of unique.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  It's like a song within a song.

• 38:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and you cited him as an influence, and I kind of got that. I thought that was such a cool.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  I used to watch him every night. We toured with them.

• 38:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:13Speaker 02

  And I wouldn't miss him. I would go out to watch him. And I noticed about his playing was he never missed a note. Some guys are just blessed with that.

• 38:22Billy Corgan?

  Well, White Lion's one of those bands, like, as a fan, because I like White Lion, but like, you're almost like, they're too good.

• 38:28Speaker 02

  But they had great songs, too.

• 38:30Billy Corgan?

  But it's like, some bands are just, they're almost like too good?

• 38:32Speaker 02

  I know. No, I get it. I get it, totally.

• 38:35Billy Corgan?

  It's like, did you guys like walk out of a test tube, and everything is perfect, the harmonies, the hair, the, right?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And I love them. I love White Lion. And, you know, I love Mike, I love Greg, I love James, who I worked with, James Lomenzo. But especially loved.

• 38:53Billy Corgan?

  Vito.

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. Because I'm a guitar player.

• 38:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  And I was just drawn to his style.

• 38:58Billy Corgan?

  I saw some clip of you guys playing, like, Japan, like, maybe 85 or something, and you guys are just shredding.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Man, I can't watch those clips.

• 39:05Billy Corgan?

  Dual soloing?

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 39:07Billy Corgan?

  Like effortless?

• 39:08Speaker 02

  We do, we do a lot of, that's something we set out to do. We figured, I always said to myself in the back corners of my mind, we're never going to be like those shredders. We're never going to be like George Lynch. But we can do what we do and do it in harmony.

• 39:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  And then we'll at least have that. So that's what we do.

• 39:27Billy Corgan?

  The guitar playing was very good.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 39:29Billy Corgan?

  Because, you know, it's like, I've never seen you live, so I was kind of like, I wonder how they were live back in the day. I kind of wanted to, you know, that's always the litmus test.

• 39:37Speaker 02

  Well, I think we were better live. I really believe that. And what I mean by that is, our albums never really captured the energy that we have live. There's a, there's a.

• 39:50Billy Corgan?

  I didn't know what you mean by that.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  There's a certain energy that comes out of us live.

• 39:54Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  That is, really hasn't been captured on our albums.

• 39:59Billy Corgan?

  Why do you think that is? Do you have a?

• 40:00Speaker 02

  I'm not sure. I really don't know. Maybe because we do it piece by piece.

• 40:05Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  And we're not playing together as a band.

• 40:08Billy Corgan?

  Because we made an album in 93 with Which Fig, which was very successful, but, you know, it was very poured over.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 40:15Billy Corgan?

  And then the subsequent producer said, I want more of the band that's on stage. So we recorded a lot of stuff live.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 40:22Billy Corgan?

  And somehow we captured more of that, whatever that.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  Did you hear and feel the difference?

• 40:26Billy Corgan?

  You can feel it, yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But, but, but a lot of people prefer the more, I don't want to say commercial, because that's not the right word for it. The more like, like, the clear, defined, or the other one was like, more like dark chaos or something.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  No, I get it. I prefer the more defined. And, you know, playing quantized and in time, perfect. I prefer that. But because live, what happens is sometimes we come out of a fill and we're on and, and we're on, you know, we're on two.

• 40:58Billy Corgan?

  I used to, I used to, I'm still friends with Mike Garson, who's Bowie's piano man, as he's known. And Mike played with us on some tours, and he always said we played seven and three-quarter bars. You know what I mean? He's like, you guys don't play eights. It's like, what is this?

• 41:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 41:15Billy Corgan?

  But that's a wrong thing, right? It's like.

• 41:17Speaker 02

  And, and I get it, but that, that adds to the energy, though.

• 41:21Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay, so let's back to this incredible meteoric rise. Hell with the devil, 86, platinum record, MTV.

• 41:33Billy Corgan?

  You're married.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Platinum, double platinum album, and everything just really exploded during that time. I have no explanation for it, other than, you know, I think we made a really good album. And I think also, I would really like to believe, and I do believe, that God's hand was, was on it. And, and God was doing some great things with the band and through the band. And I think we were with a great label at the time, Enigma. They, they were on fire, too. And they deserve a lot of credit for that time.

• 42:12Billy Corgan?

  Do you, do you look back, this is, this is an unfair question, but I try not to ask them, but I think it's unfair. Do you look back, because, you know, like I said, there was this vibe on the street where it's like, well, they're a Jesus band. If you'd been more like some of the other bands, like, you know, because some of the bands, and we don't need to name their names, we know who they are. Access was part of their marketing strategy.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:33Billy Corgan?

  You'd see them on MTV, sloppy drunk, and, you know.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 42:37Billy Corgan?

  Doing their Keith Richards imitations.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  I've gone as far as to say this just recently, so it's interesting that you ask that question. I've even said that had we not sang about Jesus, we'd probably be bigger than we were.

• 42:51Billy Corgan?

  I think so.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  That's just my thought.

• 42:54Billy Corgan?

  It strikes me, that's why I think it's an unfair question.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  No, no, not at all. It's not at all. I don't, I don't feel.

• 43:00Billy Corgan?

  I appreciate you saying that, but what I'm saying, what's unfair about it is,

• 43:05Billy Corgan?

  we'll never know.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 43:07Billy Corgan?

  And it's almost like saying, would have been better if you were a drunken lout singing about the devil. You might be a bigger rock star.

• 43:16Speaker 02

  We would probably be bigger rock stars, but here's the thing, I wouldn't change a thing.

• 43:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, that's why you're here.

• 43:23Speaker 02

  If someone said, you can get in a time machine right now and go back and redo it, would you? I'd say no.

• 43:29Billy Corgan?

  What I love about your story, just to interject my opinion here, is, is what you, what you chose to do and who you chose to be, and obviously it came from the heart. You weren't, you weren't pretending to be Jesus freaks. You said, this is who we are, and we're going to embrace this, right?

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 43:46Billy Corgan?

  Is that ultimately you were proven right?

• 43:50Billy Corgan?

  That, that, that fans really do respond to integrity on a deeper level than, than, let's say, playing into a stereotype.

• 43:59Speaker 02

  I think so. Not only respond, but the big payoff is when you meet fans who were suicidal, who are alive now because of our message.

• 44:11Billy Corgan?

  And isn't this strange? Because when we, when we think of that era, and it's really a great era for music, and whether they were under Satan or not, I love them all. But God bless. But what's interesting is that when we think of like, if we think, if we, if we were going to do like an Overton window, like, here's the most satanic, dark metal pioneering, you know, from, from upper Norway band, right? And you guys are all the way on the other side.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 44:40Billy Corgan?

  Which is the most positive messaging, believe in yourself, trust God, whatever you want to sort of hopefully simplify the messaging down to.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:48Billy Corgan?

  There are way more bands on the, on the darker side of that Overton window.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 44:53Billy Corgan?

  Which is weird because life is not like that.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  No, it's not like that. But you, you, I read a quote of yours that I totally agree with. And, and someone had, you were talking, you guys were talking about Christian rock.

• 45:07Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  And you made a comment, something to the effect of, make better music.

• 45:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I, a lot of the bands got mad at me for that.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  But see, I agree with you. Because I also feel that a lot of Christian music, more so worship music, is very cookie cutter and very much the same. You can remove the vocal, the lyric, and it's the same music, you know, same production, same sound.

• 45:35Billy Corgan?

  I'm, I'm saying this to hopefully make you laugh a little bit. I mean, there was, there's, first of all, worship slash Christian music has seen a lot of growth over the last 10, 15 years.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 45:45Billy Corgan?

  I was just at a music symposium where they were talking about the growth.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:49Billy Corgan?

  From the publishing side of Christian artists and how they have these big audiences.

• 45:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 45:53Billy Corgan?

  But, but at some point, if you just sound like Coldplay.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:58Billy Corgan?

  Well, we've already got Coldplay.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:00Billy Corgan?

  And the reason that you're-

• 46:01Speaker 02

  And U2. You, you referenced U2 as, as well, I think.

• 46:04Billy Corgan?

  Well, that, U2 unfortunately said, I mean, I'll, I'll, I'll respect the Coldplay, great, great band. But I mean, they certainly took a lot of influence for U2. U2 set the, let's call it the modern alternative template for like, positive rock and roll music or something.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:20Billy Corgan?

  With some Christian kind of vibe in there, whether you wanted to admit it or not.

• 46:24Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 46:24Billy Corgan?

  This idea of like, you can lift people's spirits. I saw U2 play maybe two weeks after nine 11, and everybody was weeping because there was, it was probably one of the only bands in the planet that could capture that spirit and turn pain into joy.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:38Billy Corgan?

  Which is a unique gift that they have.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 46:41Billy Corgan?

  But, but, you know, if, if all you guys were, were a decent metal band that sang about Jesus, okay, that would be an interesting curiosity. But you're a top level band who, by the way, made that part of your, your, your identity. Like I said, it came from the heart. So it wasn't a marketing tool. But the reason a metal fan like me always had respect for you is because you're in a great band.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  And I think that's the, you know, what, what I, when I meet other artists, we go to a festival and I meet these guys, metal bands, that I've never met before.

• 47:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  And they say, I'll meet him in person. They'll say, hey, come here, man. I just got to tell you, I love Stripe.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  It's like, it's like, it's a secret. Like, don't tell anybody.

• 47:27Billy Corgan?

  Don't tell anyone.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  And I, I, I see that and find that and hear that all the time. Now, here's another side of that coin, of that question. What about if you reverse that? And you take a lot of these bands from the strip, from the eighties, and you change their message? And they were singing about Jesus. Would they have made it?

• 47:50Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  It's an interesting thought.

• 47:52Billy Corgan?

  So we'll never know. I mean, well, I, I like to, you know, I'm, I'm overly quotable at times, and much to my, the detriment of my personal life and my career. But, you know, I, I like to say that the music business rewards sociopaths. And what I mean by that on sort of a subtextual conversational level is that, you know, it rewards people who are willing to put their finger in the wind and go with whatever's popular.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:17Billy Corgan?

  And to a teenage person doing scary spooky stuff.

• 48:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:22Billy Corgan?

  It's why kids love teen horror movies or something. It's like, you're, is it okay to like this?

• 48:27Speaker 02

  So they follow.

• 48:28Billy Corgan?

  Yes. But, but, you know, uh, you know, Christianity, at least in America, certainly has seen stronger days than it has now. But still, it's, it's an overly Christian nation. Most people don't live, you know, with the devil burning a candle in their, in their, in their basement. Most people, even if they didn't, don't go to church now. They grew up in a Christian community or, you know, so it is part of the fabric of the nation, whether people like it or not.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:54Billy Corgan?

  And so this idea that our most popular forms of music are overly leaned towards vice, I think says more about artist sociopathy than it does reality.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Interesting, interesting way of looking at it, but true, I think. And it, it's, what's also interesting, there's a lot of these satanic bands that I've met, that they're not satanic.

• 49:15Billy Corgan?

  No, not at all.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  It's just, call it whatever it is, a gimmick, whatever you want to call it.

• 49:22Billy Corgan?

  Sabbath, the all time great doom band of all time, wore crosses made by, I think it's Tony's dad named the crosses.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:30Billy Corgan?

  And to this day, Tony wears the cross.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  I know. And Geezer was a church going kid and wrote most of the lyrics. And many of their lyrics are about, about God.

• 49:40Billy Corgan?

  And salvation and-

• 49:41Speaker 02

  And it's very, we covered after forever, you know?

• 49:44Billy Corgan?

  I'd like, I need to hear that.

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, we covered that.

• 49:47Billy Corgan?

  That's a great song.

• 49:48Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's just very interesting how the mind works. But it's, it's the way it, way it works. And we, we, we're not going to stop doing what we do. We've taken a lot of heat for it, a lot of persecution.

• 50:00Billy Corgan?

  Again, I, I think you've been proven right, which is sort of the most interesting part, I think, of the story, is if you stick to what you believe in, it sort of tends to work out.

• 50:07Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 50:09Billy Corgan?

  Couple things. Cause it, cause it dovetails into where you're going. Cause you know, you guys, you're, you're having this massive wave of success, but at some point you decide to make an album that sort of somewhat walks away from the spiritual messaging. But before we get there for a second, I'm not trying to make as simple a story as you're on tour, you're young guys, and there's temptation.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 50:29Billy Corgan?

  But at least walk me through that process of the outside pressure. Now you're on MTV.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 50:36Billy Corgan?

  Take that story however you want.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Well, I think for the four or five year period where we were climbing and climbing and breaking as a band, breaking out, it kind of went to our heads. There's no other way to put it. I think it, it kind of brought out-

• 50:52Billy Corgan?

  Been there, done that with you.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  It went to our heads. And, and it brought out the old man, very easily, unfortunately. And, and the way that started, if you talk to the other three guys, you're going to get a little bit of a different story from each guy. But from my recollection, it, it started with, we went into rehearsals for Against the Law, and we never brought beer or alcohol into rehearsals. All of a sudden, one guy brings in a six pack, and we all looked at it like, what the hell? You know?

• 51:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 02

  What is this six pack doing here? You know? I don't know. You want one?

• 51:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. Give me, give me, we'll have a beer. That's how it started. And it just kind of unfortunately and tragically, that seed grew negatively. And, and the next day was a 12 pack. Next day, we went to the local bar. Next day, we did this. Next week, my brother had a big party at his house. And we had kegs and, you know, alcohol all over the kitchen counter. So just-

• 51:53Billy Corgan?

  I get it. Do you, I mean, because you're so public about your faith at that moment in your life.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:59Billy Corgan?

  Do you start on some level to feel almost like ashamed or like a sense of hypocrisy?

• 52:03Speaker 02

  A complete shame. Absolutely. And I couldn't live with myself. I mean, I wasn't suicidal, but I, I felt like everything was crumbling. My marriage certainly was. My kids, everything. And I had, you know, two little kids at the time. And I, yeah, no, it was awful. And I was struggling, I was going to bed with that every night, struggling with that, because we were kind of comfortable in our sin, yet at the same time miserable.

• 52:32Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  And I'd go to bed thinking, I got, something's got to break. I can't, I can't do it. I can't do this. I can't do this. So I finally made the decision to leave the band. I felt like that was the only way out.

• 52:44Billy Corgan?

  But let's walk back one step, because, because this is fascinating to me. And it gets to a deeper conversation I want to have with you about God and Christianity. But when you made the decision to make, I don't want to put words in your mouth. So how do you describe the album where you say you kind of, we took an album off of God or something, something?

• 53:03Speaker 02

  The album was called Against the Law. And it's not that it was a bad, evil, horrible album. It's just that we walked away from everything we said we were.

• 53:15Billy Corgan?

  But is that, is that, you got, you kind of slid there? Or you make a decision, hey, you know, as long as we keep pushing this?

• 53:22Speaker 02

  I think we slid there.

• 53:23Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 53:23Speaker 02

  I think-

• 53:24Billy Corgan?

  It wasn't like you had a decision, hey, we need to get, go off of this Christian stuff?

• 53:27Speaker 02

  No, no. We slid there. I think from years of getting beaten over the head by the church, most of the time.

• 53:33Billy Corgan?

  That's so fascinating to me that you were getting it from both sides.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  Oh, God, yeah. But I, I think even back then, more so the church. But we got it from mainstream a lot, but even more so from the church. We'd go in and meet with people and they would just have nothing but-

• 53:46Billy Corgan?

  What would, sorry, what would they have you have, what would they rather have had you do?

• 53:51Speaker 02

  I don't know. But even, even not even talking about what they thought of us, but also things like performing a gig and it's time to get paid at the end of the night. And they don't pay us. Christian gigs. You know, I mean, things like that. Yeah. And, and, and not to throw anybody under the bus or say anything bad about anyone, but I'm just saying these things happen.

• 54:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  So I think what happens subconsciously is it started to build up and build up and make us resentful, make us more, you know, maybe even hateful, to the point where we just said, F all of this. We're done. And we just started acting out, you know, drinking more, hang, going to strip bars, going, doing, I mean, it just, it was, I was, I went through solid gold in Minneapolis on a promotional tour. Oz and I, they invited us. They said, you want to go? And we're like- You know, a year prior to that, we said, no. But this time we're like, yeah, sure, let's go. We went, I'm sitting there with David Cassidy at Solid Gold. And you know what he said to me?

• 54:56Speaker 02

  He goes, aren't you guys a Christian band?

• 55:00Billy Corgan?

  Save it for the DV movie. That's the scene.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  I know. And but, but it was like a dagger in the heart.

• 55:08Billy Corgan?

  I mean, what do you say at that moment? I mean,

• 55:09Speaker 02

  I had nothing to say, other than,

• 55:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Ouch.

• 55:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, wow.

• 55:17Billy Corgan?

  So you left the band because you thought, okay, I can't, whatever this is, I can't keep doing this. Is that, is this, is that oversimplification?

• 55:24Speaker 02

  My, my priority list was out of whack. And I wanted to put it in order. And I knew that my priorities should not have been at the top of the list, the band. It should have been, you know, God, family, then maybe the band.

• 55:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  That's not what it was. It was the band, you know?

• 55:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 55:47Speaker 02

  And then family and God were down here somewhere. And I don't even know what was in the middle.

• 55:52Billy Corgan?

  Sorry, I'm just, I'm curious, because, you know, we all go through these similar dynamics with our groups. And in your case, you got your brothers in the band, too.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:02Billy Corgan?

  I just want to see if this resonates with you. It's just, it's not a question I had written down, but because you're talking about priorities, I think sometimes it's like God. And for people who aren't religious, I'd say, okay, let's call it, let's say, let's say, truth. Just living a truthful life, right? Then, then family.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 56:21Billy Corgan?

  And then when it pertains to your band, I always say, it's the family of the band. That the family of the band has to come before the band. It's because if you're talking about souls,

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:33Billy Corgan?

  It's whether or not you love each other and you, and you, you honor your mutual sacrifice, or your, even your karma together, however you want to put it.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 56:43Billy Corgan?

  Because, because when, when my band had all these issues over almost 20 years, I would say to people, if you think it's a musical disagreement, you don't understand this band at all.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:54Billy Corgan?

  How do we make all that music?

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 56:56Billy Corgan?

  It's the family of the band that's the problem. We're not on the same page spiritually. We're not pointed the same direction. And that is what really breaks your heart.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, no. And no question about it. And during that time, we were definitely not on the same page.

• 57:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  I think maybe we, if you ask Rob, or Tim at the time, or Tim's no longer in the band, or Oz, who is now in the band, they might have a different version of that story. Or how they felt.

• 57:25Billy Corgan?

  Well, that, sorry, that's every band.

• 57:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know, I know, and totally. But my version, my feelings, my heart, recalling those, I was miserable. And I, I didn't think the band was something that should come before and above my faith and my family.

• 57:47Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  So I, I didn't see it getting better. I just didn't see it getting better with the band. So I, I felt like it was best for me to remove myself. And I did, I left. And when I left, it really destroyed our relationships. Especially, obviously with my brother, you know, we were always, we did everything together.

• 58:10Billy Corgan?

  What, what was his? Because I had a similar conversation with the Wilson sisters, who both appeared on the podcast at different times. And they talk about this conversation, and they both have different takes on it. So what was the core? You're abandoning our dream?

• 58:24Speaker 02

  I think Robert felt betrayed. And I'm speaking for him.

• 58:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  But just having talked to him a little bit and heard little bits and pieces, I think he felt betrayed and he felt hurt and crushed. He thought we were gonna always be a team and be, stay together, you know, for life. That sort of thing. So when I said, I'm out of here and left, it, he was hurt. And the way he acted through that, I think, was, I can't have anything to do with him. So even though we saw each other on occasion, it was never the same.

• 59:00Billy Corgan?

  Wow. Has it since been repaired?

• 59:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, and it's still repairing.

• 59:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 02

  Still repairing. But we've come a long way. But I love my brother, you know, I love him. And without my brother, I literally wouldn't be here, sitting here, doing this, talking. He, he allowed me to join his band, you know, so. But we're still work on that. We're, we're polar opposites. You know, completely. We're just different people.

• 59:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  That, that's not good or bad. We're just different.

• 59:34Billy Corgan?

  So,

• 59:37Billy Corgan?

  I do want to talk about what follows musically, but I thought it'd be an interesting thing because I'm a Christian as well. And, and I have talked at different times. And on some level, your being out and Mark Farner being out. I, at some point, I made the own, my own personal decision that I was going to be willing to talk about God in a way that I know most people in my generation do not talk about God in music.

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, wow.

• 1:00:03Billy Corgan?

  I even once said to Rolling Stone that God is the third rail of rock and roll.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  I read that.

• 1:00:08Billy Corgan?

  If you talk about God, you know, you might as well throw your career down, down the hole. And I made the decision that I was going to talk about God honestly, at least God in my life, or believing in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. And if, and if it was going to hurt me, I didn't care. Because if you don't really understand me,

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Billy Corgan?

  How can I put it better?

• 1:00:32Billy Corgan?

  If I can't be willing to be honest with who I am, well, what am I asking a fan to believe in?

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. I agree with that. And I, and I feel, I have very similar feelings in the way I think.

• 1:00:43Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And with, because I, obviously I want your take on it, but it's interesting when you talk about these things publicly, the first assumption that people have is that you're preaching. And, and, and I can't speak for you, but I, I've never felt like I was in any preaching position.

• 1:00:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I understand.

• 1:00:59Billy Corgan?

  People will say, do you believe, you know, if people believe in this or that, I said, people should do whatever their, their heart tells them to do.

• 1:01:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:06Billy Corgan?

  I'm a vegan. And sometimes people say, can I get, order a steak? And I'm like, if you want to have a steak, order a steak. Like,

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:12Billy Corgan?

  It doesn't change that I don't want to.

• 1:01:14Speaker 02

  Do what you want to do.

• 1:01:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, do what you want to do. But I'm saying, from your perspective, what position did you feel, whether you had a responsibility, a prostrate, or to preach, or to, to convert, or, or did you, did you feel like I do, which is just like, representing is, is enough for me in this, in this, whatever this complication is?

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  It started out where we, we were involved with the church. So we had more of that church mentality, going door to door, you know, and

• 1:01:41Billy Corgan?

  Is that, is that from the Baptist side of the equation?

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  No, not from the Baptist. It's a church called Calvary Chapel. Non-denominational.

• 1:01:48Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  A pastor by the name of Raul Reese, who I still consider my pastor. Love him. And we were really much more, I don't want to say bold, but much more church minded in the sense that we would, you know, the goal was to preach more. In between songs, after the show. And we did that. We did all that stuff. But nowadays, we don't do that so much. We toss bibles, and music does the talking. We don't preach. We don't pull out a Bible on stage and start preaching.

• 1:02:20Billy Corgan?

  Is this, sorry, is, is this why on, you guys, in some level, maybe were hurt by the church giving you guff, because you were out preaching the word?

• 1:02:29Speaker 02

  I've seen what push, being too pushy on people and with people does.

• 1:02:35Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  It's not a good thing.

• 1:02:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  It drives people away from God. And we don't want to drive people away from God.

• 1:02:42Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  If our song doesn't say it, you know, "God, I will follow you because you died for me, gave to me your life to set me free. Anyone who asks shall receive. Jesus in your heart, it's time for you to start giving God all the glory." That's the lyric, that's the chorus. If that doesn't, if that's not enough, I don't know what is. I mean, you know what I mean?

• 1:03:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. Because I was just curious, your experience in that, because, I mean, I guess because we're both loosely, you know, you know, under the rock umbrella, there aren't a lot of examples of people like us that are willing to talk about God.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, no.

• 1:03:23Billy Corgan?

  In, in music, or God in the arts, or God. And I, I, and it's similar to what I was saying before, but I find it very odd that people are very comfortable talking about everything but God.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:34Billy Corgan?

  And I feel like I said this to Rolling Stone when I did the interview, I was like, why is everybody comfortable talking about everything else?

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:03:41Billy Corgan?

  But, you know, most statistics say that, you know, 70% of, of Americans believe, believe in God. If 70% of Americans believe in God, and maybe it's 65% today, who the hell knows?

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. A lot, a lot of people.

• 1:03:54Billy Corgan?

  Sure. But I'm saying is, if you, if you, if you believe in God, why is God antithetical to the, to the part of marketing who you are?

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  I think I have the answer.

• 1:04:04Billy Corgan?

  Okay, please. Fear.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  I think it's as simple as people are afraid. I have met so many people in this business who are Christians. And they say, man, it's, I think it's so amazing what you guys.

• 1:04:17Billy Corgan?

  They're whispering to you in a trailer.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  It's always like that. It's always like that. Like, hey, dude, I think it's amazing what you guys do. Man, I, I would, I would love to do that. I wish I could do that, but, man, God bless you guys. It's always like that. So I think it comes down to they're afraid to do it. And man, dude, you doing it, you're brave. And that, that gives me so much respect for you.

• 1:04:47Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  I think that's incredible because we need more people like that. To, to speak out on what they believe and what they, what moves them and what drives them. And I think it's incredible.

• 1:04:58Billy Corgan?

  My favorite discussion, because you know, you, you, you, you've had to have this discussion. You're at a table with somebody. It's a nice dinner. You're in a nice restaurant. And somebody wants to sort of debate God with you.

• 1:05:11Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm a bad debater.

• 1:05:13Billy Corgan?

  Well, I'm a good debater, but.

• 1:05:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. I can tell.

• 1:05:15Billy Corgan?

  But God bless. So the, but the, you know, the, the discussion sort of starts somewhere along this line. Well, how do you know God is real? And I, and I always say, but I don't.

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  You don't.

• 1:05:25Billy Corgan?

  I don't.

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:27Billy Corgan?

  And they say, well, if you can't be sure that God is real, then why do you believe? And I, and I always say, because that's just the way I feel. It makes more sense to me that there's a just universe, because if there's not a just universe, then we're just animals.

• 1:05:42Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:05:42Billy Corgan?

  Living in some sort of archaic code of behavior.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:05:46Billy Corgan?

  As opposed to believing that there's some sort of reason that we're organized and historically over thousands of years, organized to believe that it's better to be good than to be bad.

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:05:57Billy Corgan?

  And what is that? Where does that come from?

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, for me, I, my faith lies in just that. It's faith. People ask me, well, where does that come from?

• 1:06:09Billy Corgan?

  But that's why, that's why I always find funny is it's, I always say, but that's the meaning of the word. To have faith means you have to believe in something that can't be.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  That you can't see, you can't feel, you can't touch.

• 1:06:21Billy Corgan?

  Piece of paper saying.

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  You can't smell. Yeah.

• 1:06:23Billy Corgan?

  Exactly. That's the whole.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  You just believe it.

• 1:06:25Billy Corgan?

  That's why the word is faith.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  And it's, and I always use this cliche of, you know, you can't see, you can't, you know, touch air, but you know, it's there. You know, you need it to live. You know, you need it to survive. But you can't see it. You just have faith that it's there. And boy, if it's gone, we die.

• 1:06:45Billy Corgan?

  Have you had, um, and I don't mean this in the spooky sense, but have you had supernatural spiritual experiences like?

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  Not really. I'm not one of those guys that's, it goes around casting out demons and has had, you know, hands laid on me and I was sent 10 feet back to the room and I, it's my path and my walk hasn't been about that.

• 1:07:10Billy Corgan?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:11Speaker 02

  And now I'm open minded to it. When I see it and I have a friend say, oh, man, I went to this show and it's some pastor laid hands on me and changed my life. And man, I, I could feel the power.

• 1:07:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  I don't make fun of that. But I'm a little, I guess to some degree, a little skeptical because I haven't personally experienced that.

• 1:07:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  I'll be just being honest.

• 1:07:31Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  I've experienced though, seeing God work. Time and time again, times when you, there's no light at the end of the tunnel. There's no hope where I think there's no way out of this.

• 1:07:44Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, when my kids lost their, their mother, I felt like uh, there's no way out of this.

• 1:07:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  Coming home that night, having to tell them.

• 1:08:00Billy Corgan?

  How old were your kids when, when their mother?

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  My daughter was 17 and my son was 21.

• 1:08:05Billy Corgan?

  Can't imagine.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  And I just felt like there's no way out of this. And I was angry with God and it was, it was a bad time. But where I'm going with this is coming out of that. And my wife Lisa and what God's done, the restoration in my life and my kids' lives, uh, has been miraculous, I think. So to me, that deepens my faith. It deepened, I know that's how I know there's a God, seeing him work in my life. And people can say, oh, that's just life, you know, it's a dude, you know,

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  I read it all. I see it all. These people just, they, they don't like when you think different than they do.

• 1:08:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I would like to say to, to, uh, is our common culture moves to a more secular, non spiritually rooted uh, collective consciousness. So we're not getting a lot of good in return.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  No, no, we're not. So, and it's that, that's a little frightening.

• 1:09:15Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Speaker 02

  Because it's like, where are we going to be in 20 years and 40 years? Well, my grandkids are, you know, in their, in their mid twenties and starting families.

• 1:09:24Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's, but you know, not to be biblical, but that's the whole point of those, those stories.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 1:09:29Billy Corgan?

  Is, is, we're not going through anything unique that hasn't happened before. We're just, we have cell phones now, but maybe.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  Well, that's, that's an evil all in and of itself.

• 1:09:40Billy Corgan?

  So I don't, I, I don't, I, I, I want to pick your brain on a couple of things. So, uh, just to pick back up the story, when you went solo, you had success as a solo artist. Your first solo record sold 250,000 copies, which is no mean feat.

• 1:09:55Speaker 02

  In the Christian market only.

• 1:09:57Billy Corgan?

  Oh, really?

• 1:09:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. It wasn't.

• 1:09:58Billy Corgan?

  You didn't try to go pop at all?

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  I, I tried to talk to the label. I was with a label called Benson. And they didn't have mainstream distribution at the time.

• 1:10:06Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 1:10:06Speaker 02

  So they weren't able to secure that.

• 1:10:08Billy Corgan?

  I didn't pick up on that part of the story.

• 1:10:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it was strictly Christian.

• 1:10:11Billy Corgan?

  Were you okay with walking away from sort of the, let's call it the more secular crowd that you'd built?

• 1:10:15Speaker 02

  I was.

• 1:10:16Billy Corgan?

  Rep with?

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was. Cause I was a, a new man at the time. I, I spent time at home, baking cakes for my kids.

• 1:10:24Billy Corgan?

  Is this where you also moved to, or you were like?

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  We hadn't moved yet.

• 1:10:28Billy Corgan?

  Campground or?

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that came a little.

• 1:10:31Billy Corgan?

  Cranberries and campground. I remember.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  Cranberries and campground. Yeah, that was.

• 1:10:35Billy Corgan?

  I was like, wow, okay. He's getting back to the earth.

• 1:10:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man. No, this was, this was in 1992, three and four.

• 1:10:40Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  Before I moved to Massachusetts. But, uh, I was enjoying getting my family in order and, and going to church and getting my faith. And not that faith is about going to church, but just working on that stuff. And, um, I signed a deal with Benson and we released my first solo album and it did very well. And, uh, we had like five number ones on that album, Christian only. Cover a CCM twice and all this stuff. And it just felt like, okay, there's, there's more to this story.

• 1:11:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good.

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  This isn't the yet, you know?

• 1:11:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  And so I just continued down that path for a while.

• 1:11:16Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  And then moved back east. That's a whole other.

• 1:11:22Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no, I saw, I just started remembering thing Cranberries and Campground.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I moved in with my mother-in-law, uh, sold the cars, because I mean, I got to a point where music wasn't paying the bills and, and we, there are all sorts of things that came. The band filed bankruptcy as a partnership because we weren't incorporated. So i- if I hadn't filed, I would have taken on all the debt. So I was forced to file. And I didn't need to, but because of filing, my life changed financially, obviously. Uh, moved in with my mother-in-law in Massachusetts and went to work for the family Cranberry and Campground business. Weird. Not that they were weird or that was weird, but.

• 1:12:05Billy Corgan?

  What do we need to know about the Cranberry business? It's like, is there a secret?

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh, there's a lot. Uh, I'll never forget the things I learned the hard way, but it, we, I, I went out to work the bogs the first time and I stepped on, you wear hip waders, right? I get in the water and it's cold. It's in October and the water's cold. And I'm, I'm like, oh, this sucks. This is terrible.

• 1:12:28Billy Corgan?

  You're a long way away from the Sunset Strip.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, a long way away. But I was, I was writing lyrics while I'm in the bogs. I was still working on an album. But I, I stepped forward and I stepped on something big and hard. I'm like, what is that? And the guy I was with cleared the berries and he goes, take your foot away really slow. And pull it back. And I pulled it back and he goes, that's a snapper, snapping turtle, giant snapping turtle. My foot was on it. The other thing that happened was we corralled the berries one morning and they were red. The next morning I came back to load them onto the truck with the guys and they were brown. And I said, why are the berries brown? They said, because there's about an inch of spiders on the berries from the bogs. They were trying to, you know, get out of the water to, to live and survive.

• 1:13:15Speaker 02

  So we had to go get in there and then what did they do? They tried to get to higher ground. So they were all on my face, in my hair. I'd go home every night. I'd take a shower. There's spiders washing out of my hair. That, that freaked me out more than anything.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  Ranger Mike. I became Ranger Mike.

• 1:13:35Billy Corgan?

  Ranger Mike. So, um.

• 1:13:39Billy Corgan?

  Where am I going with this? You, you, you find your way back to the band early 2000s. You end up touring with Boston, which is a very interesting part of your life story.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:13:51Billy Corgan?

  You have some health challenges.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:13:53Billy Corgan?

  You lose your wife, God bless her, and your mother, your children.

• 1:13:59Billy Corgan?

  And, but through it all, it's this musical story that's intertwined with your faith. Is there a sort of a, is there a bow that you put around it? Because I feel like, and I've said this already, but, but maybe this is a way to sort of resurface the concept is like, I feel like you've been kind of proven right. And it's not because people have to agree with you.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:14:20Billy Corgan?

  But your path has worked for you, which is why I have respect. Because ultimately, all musical artists have to make these kinds of decisions. Are we going to sell out? Are we gonna give the fans what they want? But it's not really what my heart is telling me. And, and in your particular case, it's a very unique story. Because it'd be one thing if you, like I said, if you were just this guy in this band and people knew about you, but you, you, you, you were on MTV. You've touched the highest heights of the music business.

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's very interesting when I look back on those times and those days and, and, here we are, a Christian band singing about Jesus and on MTV and our videos.

• 1:14:58Billy Corgan?

  The devil's playground.

• 1:14:59Speaker 02

  We're watching in disbelief as they're beating out Bon Jovi and Motley and Poison and all the big bands of the time. So it was very, it was astonishing and incredible to see and be a part of. But regardless of that, I'm, I'm a man that, you know, I, I just stay on my path, man. I've got tunnel vision and it's just how I'm built with everything. Like if someone says, came in right now and said, hey, your calendar's full. You don't have any time to do an album, but here's why we want you to do an album. I would say, let's do it. If it, if I felt I was supposed to do it.

• 1:15:39Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:39Speaker 02

  You know, if I felt called to do it, I would, I wouldn't think about everything else that has to get done. I'm just, it's, it's this weird way of thinking.

• 1:15:47Billy Corgan?

  Your wife told me before we started talking, they were talking about doing three albums at the same time.

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I threw that out as an idea to the label. And the reason why is because I, I don't know if I'll be able to sing in two years.

• 1:15:59Billy Corgan?

  Why? Oh, because of your health issues?

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  Well, because I have, I had cancer on this side. They removed this side of my thyroid. They didn't expect any issues with this side. Well, there's, I have cancer on this side now. So it's small papillary, slow growing. So I'm in great hands. They're keeping an eye, active surveillance, but it's very close to the vocal nerve. So if I were to ever have to go through surgery, there's a much higher risk of vocal nerve damage.

• 1:16:27Billy Corgan?

  I see.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  Which means I may not sing.

• 1:16:29Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:16:31Billy Corgan?

  So. That's scary.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is. So I'm just thinking, why don't we get these albums done while I can sing? And while Oz can play and Oz has had issues and wasn't able to play on the last album, for example, because of blood pressure and trying to get that sorted out. So all these health issues going on, I figure, let's just go do it all. And they're like, well, can you handle that? And I said, yeah, you know, it's like, no, no thought about it.

• 1:16:57Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Speaker 02

  Let's do it.

• 1:16:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Speaker 02

  It's how I am.

• 1:17:01Billy Corgan?

  I was, I was, uh, with kids trolling your social media, stalking your social media. And I saw this thing where you had reposted this thing that Billy Joel said something about aging artists, putting out music. Can you, can you pick up that story? Because I was, I was with you on your, on your.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  It would something to the effect of by making new music, you're degrading your, your classic music.

• 1:17:24Billy Corgan?

  I think this is the, I love Billy Joel, but this is to me is the silliest argument.

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, maybe I'm misquoting that a little bit, but I think that was the gist of it.

• 1:17:34Billy Corgan?

  Well, in his case, I don't think he put out a song for 20 years.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  And I love Billy Joel too. I covered Always a Woman. And I love him. I grew up with Billy Joel, but I just, I couldn't be more opposite of that opinion. It, it, it boggles my mind when I hear like Motley Crue. I think something was said that it's not worth doing full-length albums. I think Paul Stanley of Kiss has said this. A number of artists have said this, and I think to myself, they've lost their passion to make music, to create music. This is what I think, whether I'm right or wrong.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  I'm the opposite. It's like, why wouldn't you want to go make as much music as you can while, while you can?

• 1:18:18Billy Corgan?

  Well, um, everybody from my band to record labels, to managers, to fans. I think in the last five to six years, I think I put out over a hundred songs, something like that.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  That's a lot.

• 1:18:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I put out a triple record, concert record, I mean, all sorts of stuff.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  That's a lot.

• 1:18:37Billy Corgan?

  And, um, so I'm taking it from the negative side of the questioning, right? Which is, which is like, um, they'll say to me, uh, why are you putting out so much music?

• 1:18:51Billy Corgan?

  We're on the same page, so I'm, this is my way of agreeing with you.

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:18:54Billy Corgan?

  And, and, and I, this is literally what I would say if you and I were just having dinner and just having a private conversation.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:19:00Billy Corgan?

  So this is, this is, as we say in wrestling, this is not a worked answer. This is my true feeling.

• 1:19:05Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:19:06Billy Corgan?

  I say, if God gave me this talent, okay? It is my responsibility and my job to use this talent.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:19:14Billy Corgan?

  I don't know, I don't know whether the song I write that nobody cares about, that ends up on a record that nobody listens to, might be the difference between somebody jumping off a roof.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  You're right.

• 1:19:27Billy Corgan?

  Or staying with their sweetheart or whatever. That's not for me to decide. The one thing I have is that God gave me a special talent in one part of my life. And that talent changed my life. And I constantly get positive feedback from people all over the world to say, just like with you, that thing you did, or the thing you said, or that concert, or that quote you gave, that gave me something that I wouldn't have otherwise had.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:19:52Billy Corgan?

  So in my cosmology, God gave me this gift and my job is to use the gift. And my job is not to sit there and say, well, I just really don't have time right now. Or I don't want to deal with negative fan feedback. Or I don't want to deal with somebody's 30-year-old memory because they lost their virginity card to one of my songs. Like, that's not my problem. My problem is to write songs and, um.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  I love it. And can I, can I borrow some of that?

• 1:20:16Billy Corgan?

  Please.

• 1:20:17Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  No, seriously. I feel the same way. It's like, you're blessed to do this. You've been given a gift and an ability to do it. Why not do as much of it as you can? Granted, maybe you don't make as much, there's not as much return because of whatever.

• 1:20:36Billy Corgan?

  Once you were on stage wearing a Bumblebee outfit and you're still here.

• 1:20:42Billy Corgan?

  I like the stripes.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  I'm telling you.

• 1:20:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay, just like Kiss, did you guys ever sit around and say, we should bring the stripes back? Did you have that conversation?

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  We have, we have brought them back to a small degree, like our guitars, our instruments are striped.

• 1:20:54Billy Corgan?

  We're talking full.

• 1:20:55Speaker 02

  Not full on stripes. We, that's scary. I, we could do it. We could, but.

• 1:21:01Billy Corgan?

  It sounds like, but it sounds like an Instagram meme, doesn't it?

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Spandex, never. Never.

• 1:21:05Billy Corgan?

  Well, you're a brave man. I could never do the spandex. I don't think we can top all that. God bless you. Great talking today.

• 1:21:11Speaker 02

  Dude, that was amazing. Thank you for having me. What an honor. An absolute honor. And you're incredible.

• 1:21:17Billy Corgan?

  God bless you. Go listen to Stryper. Great band.