208: Breaking Down Every Type of Open Relationship W/ Brandon Kyle Goodman

What is polyamory, and how is it different from ethical non-monogamy? Can an open relationship actually last, and is dating really any different across the gay, straight, and bisexual communities? In this Pride Month episode, Sabrina sits down with writer, actor, and Tell Me Something Messy host Brandon Kyle Goodman to unpack poly, ethical non-monogamy (ENM), open relationships, jealousy, trust, and what every monogamous person can learn from how non-monogamous people communicate. They dig into how to know if ENM is actually for you, the real difference between non-monogamy and cheating, how to handle jealousy and insecurity, and why no dating book or set of rules will ever beat honest communication. They also run a live dating profile audit packed with tips on attraction, compatibility, and getting comfortable with rejection. Whoever you love and however you connect, you deserve love like the rest of us. Pre-order Sabrina's book coming out October 2026,⁠ "Why Am I Like This?"⁠ Get your free workbook and access to the companion course after pre-ordering 'Why Am I Like This?' by filling out the form at the bottom of the page at http://sabrinazohar.com/book Take the new and improved dating quiz! sabrinazohar.com/quiz If you’re ready to slow down, trust your instincts, and break your old dating patterns, the Healthy Relationship Foundations Course walks you through it step-by-step ⁠HERE!⁠ If you’re serious about changing your dating patterns instead of repeating them, the Art of Going Slow course helps you unlearn urgency, regulate your nervous system, and build real connection without rushing, chasing, or abandoning yourself ⁠HERE!⁠ Get Ad free ⁠HERE!⁠ Watch on Spotify. Spotify subscribers get fewer ads on my video. Want to work with Sabrina? ⁠HERE!⁠ Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show ⁠HERE!⁠ Don't forget to follow ⁠Sabrina⁠ and ⁠The Sabrina Zohar Show⁠ on Instagram and ⁠Sabrina ⁠on TikTok! Video now available on ⁠YOUTUBE!⁠ Please support our sponsors! Visit DRINKAG1. COM/ ZOHAR to get a free Morning Person Hat and free AG1 Flavor Sampler in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription (an $82 value!) Aura has a great deal for Father’s Day, an exclusive $35-off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/SABRINA. Promo Code SABRINA Treat yourself to gear that looks good, feels good, and doesn’t break the bank with Fabletics. Go to Fabletics.com/SABRINA and sign up as a VIP and get eighty percent off everything! Download Cash App Today: https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/mlzhc53l Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa® Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and The Bancorp Bank, N. A., pursuant to a license from Visa U. S. A. Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and Bancorp debit flex card. Cash App Green features, Savings, Direct deposit, Round ups, Overdraft coverage and Discounts provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. ============================= Chapters: 00:00 Polyamory and Open Relationships Intro 06:08 Why Men Love Bitches and Dating Rules 10:14 Masculine and Feminine Energy in Love 14:22 What Polyamory Actually Is 18:29 How to Know if Polyamory Is for You 22:34 Open Relationship vs Cheating 29:10 Why People Choose Polyamory 35:03 Using Sex to Numb Loneliness 42:29 Dating Profile Audit and Tips 51:36 Meeting People and Handling Rejection Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light. And slowly, the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress. A hoodie slips beneath a blazer. An old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season. You create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.

• 0:30Sabrina Zohar?

  What is poly? What is ethically non-monogamous? Are you in the right relationship for you? Wait, what's going on in the gay community? Is it the same as what's happening in the straight community? All of your questions answered and more on today's episode. Hello, hello, hello! And welcome to another episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. You guys! We have a really special guest, one of my favorite people on the planet, to be exact. Brandon Kyle Goodman is here. And this is not just for one specific group of people today. We're talking to everybody. If you have ever asked questions of, like, non-traditional relationships, understanding, because, like, your girl's not poly, so we need to bring in the experts to understand what the fuck we're gonna talk about. And that's why we have Brandon here today. I'm so excited! Guys, as always, please don't forget to rate and review the show.

• 1:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Pre-order my book, Why Am I Like This? Because, duh, you're gonna want it. And you get a free course as a thank you, so don't forget to submit that at sabrina zohar.com/book. And as always, guys, thank you for being here. All I ask is that we grow a community of kindness, of love, of safety. And so if you don't like the show, that's okay. You don't have to fucking listen, but you don't have to be a dick and leave a shitty comment on your way out. It's totally cool. But if you're gonna rate and review it, please leave five stars. Don't forget to share it with your friend. And just thank you for being here. Thank you for showing up as you and allowing me to show up as me. And guys, if you need anything, everything's at sabrina zohar.com. You can work one-on-one, join a course, anything you need. Or you could just be here, listen ad-free or with ads, whatever you guys want. I am here for you in the same way that you guys are here for me. All right, babes, without further ado, let's get right on into it, shall we? Well, hello!

• 1:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Hey! Can we just make that the episode? Yeah, yeah! To anyone listening and they're like, no, no, no, next. I am so fucking excited. We have, this has been months in the making.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  Yes, we were supposed to record it a while, like a month ago and then life happened. But we're here, we made it happen.

• 2:17Sabrina Zohar?

  We did it!

• 2:17Speaker 02

  I'm so excited.

• 2:18Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so excited. So, before we get started, because we have so many things, we're gonna do a profile audit today.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  Okay, work.

• 2:23Sabrina Zohar?

  We'll answer some audience questions and I'm gonna ask you all the questions. Could you share a little bit about you? I always like our guests to do so.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Okay, so my name is Bryony Call Goodman. I'm a Taurus. Pisces moon, Sag rising, AKA the best human you've ever met. I love french fries, very particular about it. I'm allergic to potatoes, did you know this? But I love french fries. I had my allergy test done where they like prick you.

• 2:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  And she was like, "You're allergic to potatoes." I was like, "French fries?" And she's like, "Yeah."

• 2:50Sabrina Zohar?

  She's like, "I'm sure that's the same."

• 2:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, babe.

• 2:52Sabrina Zohar?

  How do you bypass that?

• 2:53Speaker 02

  I eat them.

• 2:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Perfect.

• 2:57Speaker 02

  And I cry after, but I can't give up french fries. I have so many allergies. Um, I am a writer, an actor, a host of my own podcast, Something Messy, which you were a guest on.

• 3:07Sabrina Zohar?

  I loved it.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  We're talking about adulting. Um, yeah, and I'm from New York originally, live in LA now. I feel like I'm giving you a dating profile, but that's what we want, right?

• 3:15Sabrina Zohar?

  That's what we're here for.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Essentially, it's a version of that. So I live in LA, been here for 10 years. Um, and my favorite color is, well, honestly, right now it's like a pink.

• 3:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh wait, which color pink?

• 3:25Speaker 02

  Ooh, that's a great question.

• 3:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Like what shade?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Like a magenta.

• 3:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Ooh, pretty, okay, I can fuck with that.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  I like a magenta pink.

• 3:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Also, you didn't need to tell us you're from LA because you gave me your big three to start. And so we already knew you were living in LA.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  I got a crystal in my pocket, babe. What are we talking about?

• 3:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Because when New Yorkers are like, "You've gone against us."

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Literally, I go back to New York and I'm like, "What's your sign?" They're like, "Girl, go back home. You don't live here anymore."

• 3:49Sabrina Zohar?

  You're like, "Fuck you" is my sign. You're like, "Now I'm home."

• 3:52Speaker 02

  Ah, welcome back.

• 3:54Sabrina Zohar?

  And for everyone listening in New York, thank you.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 3:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you for your service.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Thank you for Hubie is grounded.

• 3:58Sabrina Zohar?

  But like, maybe a little cynical.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 4:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so, the reason I really like, yes, this is our, it's Pride Month. Yeehaw!

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Yay!

• 4:06Sabrina Zohar?

  But this is not just for, like, I want to make sure that we encompass everybody. Now, if you're-

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Everyone's a little bit gay.

• 4:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Everybody's a little gay. If you are in the community, fuck yeah, this is for you.

• 4:14Speaker 02

  Welcome, Q plus, hi.

• 4:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Yay. But if not, that's okay too. And so I always like to preface that because I want everyone to feel really comfortable and seen. So, I really wanted to talk about today. First, actually, because you and I talked a little bit offline about this, but let's talk online about it. I hear a lot, a lot of people are constantly asking me of like, do you have like things specifically for the gay community, the lesbian community? And then I have to stop and say, okay, I speak in they. I don't, I don't do gender norms unless I'm giving a personal experience because I was only dating men.

• 4:41Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:42Sabrina Zohar?

  But outside of that, I was like, what are the differences? Right? Truly?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Have you noticed, I mean, you're in it.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Have you noticed any specific differences between the gay, the straight, the bisexual, right? Whatever the communities?

• 4:54Speaker 02

  No, everyone wants to be seen, heard and valued at the end of the day. Like, I think we might have different packaging, but it's the same desire to be loved. It's the same desire to like, figure out how to break patterns, the same, also, it's like the same bullshit cycles that people are looped into. You know, I think we're all having the same group chats, the same arguments, fights with our friends and our, and our, our significant others. So I don't think there's much of a difference because we're all human, you know?

• 5:20Sabrina Zohar?

  The only time I'm like, the only norm that I can think of, and that's how like sad it is of like, who texts first, right?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. But even that, isn't that like, kind of like?

• 5:31Sabrina Zohar?

  A bit of a stretch for me.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, I think that we're breaking against that. I think it's okay for, I mean, maybe not, I don't know. Maybe the straights are like, I, here's what I'll say.

• 5:39Sabrina Zohar?

  No, the straights are.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  I think there are some straights that are like, deep in that like trad wife situation where they're very much about like an old school, traditional, but I'm so far removed from that. And the straights that I'm friends with are so far removed from that, that like, to me, we're all the same. But I guess in that instance, we're not. And there are some gays who are like that too.

• 5:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  Who are really like conservative and traditional, and I'm very far away from them too.

• 6:02Sabrina Zohar?

  You're like, we're on the other side.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't do that.

• 6:05Sabrina Zohar?

  I, it's funny because when I dated, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's in my rearview mirror right now. And so when I dated, I, the reason, it wasn't because of a gender norm. It wasn't like, well, as the woman, I don't need to text. The reason they didn't was I was like, hey, Sab, you're showing too much interest and this person's not reciprocating.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:22Sabrina Zohar?

  So why don't we let them also come to you so that you?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  It's a dance, yeah.

• 6:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Back and forth. That was it. But it wasn't because like, as the man, you should be texting me first. It's like, I'm sorry, what arbitrary rule was that? Who created that? What are we doing with this?

• 6:37Speaker 02

  Did you read the rules? I used to love them.

• 6:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Wait, is that what it's called, the rules?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  The rules? It was a book called The Rules, and then the updated one was Not My Mother's Rules. I was obsessed. It was all about like, don't date, don't call first, don't do that. Like, it was literally the rules of dating, and I followed it, and I got married, so.

• 6:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Can we add a little asterisks to it, though? Wait, wait, wait. He did get married.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did get married.

• 7:00Sabrina Zohar?

  What didn't work from the rules?

• 7:02Speaker 02

  What didn't? I mean, ultimately, none of it works. Because at a certain point, you're like, I have to communicate. Like, I can't, you can't read my mind. You know, like, you can play the chess games to, like, I guess, the, the, the, the prey, not the prey, the catch and, and chase for a moment. But once you're in the relationship, the rules don't help then.

• 7:19Sabrina Zohar?

  No.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Like, now I gotta deal with who you are, and you gotta deal with who I am. And if I've been lying to you through this cat, mouse thing, then like...

• 7:28Sabrina Zohar?

  That's how I feel about Why Men Love Bitches.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  Wait, sorry, did you say white men love bitches? Or why? Or why men love bitches?

• 7:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Why men love bitches. You're like, hold the phone.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  Either way, I'm like, huh?

• 7:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Why? God, I need to enunciate. Why Men Love Bitches is a book my girlfriend gave me years ago.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah.

• 7:47Sabrina Zohar?

  And I remember, even then, I was kind of, this is when she was like, you need to stop, like, going after these guys, and you need to play it cool, and you need to do, take this book.

• 7:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:54Sabrina Zohar?

  And I remember sitting, reading it, and being like, this is avoidance. You're just teaching women. Men, a woman, like, the nice girl tells a man how he feels. A bitch never tells him how he feels. And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. First of all, I don't want to be a bitch. Already am to enough people. But second of all, to me, the games don't really make any sense. I don't care what community you're in.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Because, again, is there something, like, because I have, right now, about, to be fair, like, 60% male clients and about 40% women, which...

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 8:23Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm cool with that, I don't give a fuck, I don't care who. And I have a good portion of people in the gay community. There is no difference. There is no difference when I hear them talk, when I hear a straight person talk, when I hear a man talk, when I hear a woman talk, when I hear they talk. It's all the same. Now, the only thing, obviously, is the obvious moments of the insecurities of, like, I was never accepted for being gay growing up. Okay, of course, right? That's a different wound than one that I might have. But I could all but guarantee you, don't worry, my dad didn't accept me either. I was too much, right? But I think, honestly, when we try to segment, I think that puts us more into a divide than it does into a connection.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  There's actually so much we can learn from each other when we connect. At the point of trying to be like, oh, no, you're over here, and I'm over there.

• 9:04Sabrina Zohar?

  What are you learning from the straights?

• 9:06Speaker 02

  I'm learning, I'm learning what not to do, quite, quite a bit. I'm learning what not to do, which is I'm learning to, to, to actually offer what I'm feeling. I'm learning to use my voice a lot more.

• 9:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Love that.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm learning to like stand, I'm also learning about my masculinity.

• 9:21Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Let's talk about it.

• 9:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's talk about it.

• 9:23Speaker 02

  Let's talk about it. So I'm watching The Sopranos, as you, as I told you.

• 9:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Super masculine.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Which is super masculine. And I've always been terrified, uh, not terrified, but like I was always like avoidant of, of The Sopranos because I thought it would be too much for me. But I've discovered that in the bedroom is when I'm able to tap into my masculinity in a really safe way. And that version of my masculinity doesn't feel like what I thought masculinity was. It feels soft, it feels generous, but it also still feels dom. And so I was like, oh, how can I take this energy that I'm discovering in the bedroom and use it in other places in my life? Which is why I'm watching The Sopranos, because I was like, I feel like that's pretty fucking masculine.

• 10:00Sabrina Zohar?

  The work meetings you're gonna have, you're like, all of a sudden, you're like, I told him.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Oh babe!

• 10:03Sabrina Zohar?

  I'll fucking slit your throat, motherfucker!

• 10:05Speaker 02

  The meetings I'm having are quite different.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  What'd you say? What'd you fucking say?

• 10:12Sabrina Zohar?

  There's the New Yorker.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  There's the New Yorker. Uh, but like just learning that we all have masculine and feminine, if you will. And so like, we can tap into both those things as opposed to regulating and being like, I'm the man, so I'm only masculine. I'm the woman, I'm only feminine. So no, you have both of these things, tap, which is very, I think, queer coded, but I think should be everyone coded, which is we have it all. So use it all. And, and, and where will it service you? Masculinity might service you in the boredom, but so will femininity. Like it doesn't, it doesn't need to be relegated to one area or one corner.

• 10:44Sabrina Zohar?

  My issue with this whole polarity between the masculine and feminine.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Feminine is that what we're saying is that someone showing emotions, if that's feminine, it's like, well, then we're going right back to 1940 of men, don't be a pussy. Hide your feelings, things like that. And I'm like, you know what makes my partner really masculine to me is when he can cry, but still be able to hold himself. When you can tap into that place and be like, hey babe, I just wanted you to know, I'm not asking for anything. And you're like, wait, that's, that's really hot. You were in touch with your feelings?

• 11:13Speaker 02

  That's so hot to me.

• 11:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Sexy.

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Whatever that masking of whatever it is, but you know what you're feeling and you can communicate it. And you can ask for what you need, or you can even say, I don't know what I need. But I need something like that as opposed to like throwing something at the wall. Like you throwing shit at the wall does not make me feel safe or turned on.

• 11:29Sabrina Zohar?

  No, and it's like, or doing the like, I don't know. Or the, you know, man going provide, women stay in the kitchen. And it's like, okay, listen, if that's what you want, good luck, Godspeed. I wish you the best.

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Do that.

• 11:40Sabrina Zohar?

  That's, that sounds great for you. But I think for me, I'm glad that we're normalizing this because it has really fucking bothered me this.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:46Sabrina Zohar?

  That women feel this, but like, or if a woman tells a man how she feels, that's her being in her masculine. And it's like, okay, here's a thought process. I have to be in my masculine as an, as a business owner.

• 11:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:57Sabrina Zohar?

  As a woman in a very male dominated industry, like I had to learn that the hard way. When I, especially when I started working in fashion, I was like, oh, it's all women now. No, it's still, most of the business owners were men. Most of the businesses were owned by men and I'll never forget. You'll probably appreciate this, when I first started software, R I P, I closed software last week. It is time, it's okay. But when I first started software and a male guy that was my business partner, and then the production guy was man. It was all men.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:22Sabrina Zohar?

  And I remember I was in the room and I kept saying something was going on with the drawstrings. And I was like, something's going on, we're having an issue. And one of the guys goes, you know, why don't you let the boys talk and you can go outside and you can talk to the seamstresses. If you have such an issue with these issues.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  The way that the kerosene would have come out of nowhere.

• 12:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And I, I just sat there and I was like, okay, well, all of those people don't work for me anymore. And I ended up taking the company into a multimillion dollar business and I ended up getting rid of the manufacturer. I ended up getting rid of, well, one of the guys died, sorry, R I P, but like that wasn't, I didn't do it. I swear.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:53Sabrina Zohar?

  But it was one of those moments where I, I literally had to stop. And I was like, so for anyone who doesn't believe in the inequality, it's right here.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:00Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's where I'm like, oh, let the boys talk. It's like, don't worry, you'll see what happens when the girls talk.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 13:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, we'll see.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Cause also like, I don't know if you noticed this, I'm sure you have, the higher I climb, I'm like, y'all are dumb up here. And whatever your genders are.

• 13:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Less air.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Y'all. Y'all don't have the accent coming up here. Y'all are dumb up here, so let the boys talk. No, no, no. Respectfully, no.

• 13:19Sabrina Zohar?

  No, okay. Before we go off so derailing, because we can, because I could talk to you about anything. Uh, okay, I want to talk today about non-traditional dating.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:27Sabrina Zohar?

  You're in the poly community.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  I am.

• 13:29Sabrina Zohar?

  I get this every day. I have an, I could no fuck all because I struggle to be in a relationship with one person.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 13:35Sabrina Zohar?

  The whole idea.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Multiple is a lot.

• 13:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Can you explain to me what poly is and isn't? Because I thought for a long time, poly, it's like, it's not a throuple, but it can't, like, what is it?

• 13:45Speaker 02

  It's also ultimately multiple loves.

• 13:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Like monogamy, mono, one, poly, multiple. So it's multiple loves. How you set up that relationship is different between each person or each dynamic. So some relationships, it is a throuple. It's like the three of us are dating together and those are our rules. Some, it's like, uh, parallel where it's like, we're the anchor partners and you have your partner and they, I have my partner. Um, sometimes there's polyamory where, uh, only one partner has another partner and the other partner just wants to stay in, in the monogamy. So like, whatever you all agree upon is what the relationship is, but poly is multiple loves.

• 14:19Sabrina Zohar?

  How do you decide? How did you know you were okay with that?

• 14:23Speaker 02

  You know, um, I didn't have the language for it, but I do remember, and I just, I was just talking to Dr. Vanessa Maran, who I know we both love, about when I was like 18 or 19, I remember, uh, I had my first boyfriend and I said, I don't care if you cheat, just don't lie to me. And so that was always my thing was like, I actually never was bothered by the idea of my partner sleeping with someone else. It was them not telling me or me not knowing that bothered me, which I didn't understand was like, really a, a, a tentative polyamory. It's like, I don't care who you fuck or who you're dating. I just like, want to be in the know about it. So my whole life, I just assumed I'd be monogamous and then my husband and I got married, um, about eight years ago. And I think in a second year of a relationship was when he was like, can we talk about opening our relationship?

• 15:07Speaker 02

  And I was glad he did because when we first got together, he didn't want to. And I didn't make it a deal breaker because I didn't know that non-monogamy was an option. I didn't know it was a thing. So I was like, yeah, I guess I'm supposed to be monogamous or whatever. But when he asked to open, I was like, oh, cool. Yeah, let's do it. And so we started with just. Really simple rules, which was like you can sleep with somebody when one of us is out of town. And that was it.

• 15:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  And that's what I will say, and we'll get into this, but like, I think that some people will try to go to ten with polyamory. And it's like, if it's your first time, you start very small and simple, which might just be when your partner's out of town, you could hang out with somebody else, and that might just be it. And it's a one off. And then that started to build from there. So it wasn't necessarily polyamory, it was more so just open relationship. And then I was having trouble with the one off hookups. I need emotional connection. And I learned that about my sex life, that I need to be connected to people and would rather a repeat partner than just one off, one night stands. So that's when it started to teeter towards polyamory, which was like, oh, are we starting to like see people regularly? But we didn't, we still didn't name it polyamory.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  And then there was one guy that I was seeing like every Friday, every Friday and or Saturday for like months. And he was catching feelings and it was the first time that I was like, I like you a lot. Maybe I'll ask my partner if this is something he would be into. That didn't go forward, but that's how it began.

• 16:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  And my partner was also like seeing somebody pretty regularly. And so he was like, do you want to meet them? So again, we didn't know exactly what we were doing yet, but we were like dipping our toe into polyamory. And then finally officially, we were like, I think this is something that we want for our, for our relationship.

• 16:45Sabrina Zohar?

  So it sounds like what I'm hearing is that polyamory is what you make of it, right? Like you get to create the rules. It doesn't have to be, it doesn't mean like this is what everyone has. It could be, I have this and like, I don't want to know if you sleep with that person or I do.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Because like I would imagine, right, the, also the frivolous hookup. If I'm dating somebody and I'm like, oh, I don't want you to just be like sleeping with 20 people in a week. It's like have the same partner so that we know who's getting tested. We know that we're safe.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:12Sabrina Zohar?

  I mean, pregnancy is not your issue, but for me it would be, right? That would be the thing. Is ethically non-monogamous the same as poly?

• 17:20Speaker 02

  So here's what I'll say, with ethical non-monogamy, the E part of it always stresses me out because I'm like, it should be ethical no matter what, whether it's poly or non-monogamy or monogamy, like it should just be ethical, like there should be consent. But non-monogamy doesn't have to be the same as polyamory. Like polyamory, I would say you're like in a relationship, we're dating, whereas non-monogamy would just be like, our relationship is open, so we're able to fuck other people or see other people, but we're not necessarily calling them our partners.

• 17:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so ethically non-monogamous is closer to open relationship, poly is having multiple...

• 17:49Speaker 02

  You could put poly underneath the umbrella of ethical non-monogamy.

• 17:52Sabrina Zohar?

  We get a lot of questions from people saying the person I'm dating wants poly, they want to open up the relationship.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:58Sabrina Zohar?

  How would you, or what advice would you have to somebody if they're trying to even understand if that's something they want? Because I think for a lot of us, it comes as a surprise, like you had it at 18, you kind of knew that you were cool with it. But if Ryan came to me tomorrow and was like, hey babe, I'd really like this, how can somebody understand if that's what they want?

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Oh, read about it. Read about it, research it, listen to conversations like this, listen to people who are in relationships. The reason it's scary is because you don't know what it is, right? And that's like anything. So I think it's like research, like I'm curious about this thing, I don't know if it's for me, let me start researching. Let me, there, get Ethical Slut, you know, or, it's a great book.

• 18:35Speaker 02

  Or watch people on YouTube talk about it, or, you know, follow Substack, but just start to consume information about it so you can get an understanding of what it is that you're either agreeing to or not agreeing to. And then, I think it's like with your partner, hey, I'm down to try this out, but like, let's have some really major roadblocks here. Like guardrails that we can test this out and check in. You gotta test and check, test and check, you don't just like, keep going, and see what works and adjust. It's wet cement, it always gets to adjust, like just because we agreed to this today does not mean it needs to look like that tomorrow.

• 19:08Sabrina Zohar?

  What about the thoughts of, like, did you ever get worried that your partner was gonna choose the other person? Did they get worried that you, the jealousy component, the insecurity?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  I, the only thing I can say, and I always say, my partners will say this to you if I wasn't here, is that I don't really get jealous, and that's just my temperament, but I think jealousy is a real temperament. It's not something to be scared of though, because we can get jealous of a lot of things, right? And so it's a matter of how... What do you do with that jealousy? Do you talk about it? Or do you stew on it? Do you react? Or do you respond with it? So it's like, if there's jealousy, great, beautiful. Let's have a conversation about it. What exactly am I jealous about? Well, I feel like when you go over there, I'm being left by myself. Is that actually what's happening? Maybe just even voicing it allows you to say it. And now your partner gets to go 20 minutes of extra cuddling? And you're like, actually, that would be great. 20 minutes of extra cuddling. And then you feel fine. And you're like, go off, do your thing. But talk about it.

• 19:58Sabrina Zohar?

  What I'm hearing the through line is that you need to painfully communicate. Like-

• 20:01Speaker 02

  It is so much communication. Like, monogamy, shout out to y'all. Because you can go on a fucking default train and be like, yeah, we on this thing. Polyamory, any non-monogamy, you have to talk. In fact, that's what I think people who are in monogamy can learn from people who are not monogamous. Is you gotta communicate, like, over-communicate.

• 20:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Sorry, you said the New York, you talk. You have to talk. That's like my Brooklyn Queens. You have to have a conversation, you have to talk.

• 20:28Sabrina Zohar?

  It's funny, somebody had asked, and then audience question, because I'd asked them, how do you know if you're actually wired for a E and M or poly? Or if you're just trying to avoid commitment or intimacy?

• 20:36Speaker 02

  Because you asked that question.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  You know?

• 20:40Sabrina Zohar?

  There's the dead giveaway.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  That's the dead giveaway. I mean, because for me, polyamory or non-monogamy, there's a genuine interest in it. I would even say there's like a spiritual interest. You're like, there's something about my makeup that is curious about this thing. As opposed to, if you think you might be trying to avoid something, chances are you probably are. You know who you are.

• 20:58Sabrina Zohar?

  Answers in the question.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 20:59Sabrina Zohar?

  I know. And somebody had asked, can poly ever work or last long term? How long? Like, what is that runway? Is it just as long as you decide?

• 21:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think poly, I think it's the same with monogamy. Can monogamy last? Yeah, sure. Sometimes it can, sometimes it doesn't. It's a relationship. So it's really about the people inside that relationship. And if we're able to grow together and how long we're able to grow together. And sometimes that changes. And there's nothing, and I will say for any relationship, it's not a failure if it changes. I think the failure is staying in a relationship when it's done.

• 21:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Like, past its due date. But being able to say, hey, we did this for five years. We did this for 10, 20 years. And now I want something different, or we want something different. And being able to honor that, that is- Success because those 20 years don't go go anywhere.

• 21:43Sabrina Zohar?

  And there's a big difference between my partner knows about this. We are both on the same page versus I've seen the people that you're like, wait, is it just your wife? Like, are you fucking around behind her back? Like, how do you navigate that? Yeah, thank you.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  People call that's a bad rap that polyamory gets like that's cheating, love. Like, that's not polyamory. That's not monogamy. That's just straight up cheating. We're lying here.

• 22:05Sabrina Zohar?

  If I went out on another date right now and he didn't know I'm cheating on him, but if I tell him, hey, I'm gonna go out tonight. Here's their profile. Here's who I'm gonna be with. And he's like, cool, ciao, see you when you get home. But I guess for me, I don't know if there's any real way to check on that. Like, I mean, in your experience, like,

• 22:20Speaker 02

  It's a deep trust. I mean, it's a it's a deep level of, I have no interest in being in a relationship. And this is romantic, platonic, familial, where I can't trust you. So I'm not looking for you to lie to me. So I'm gonna take what you say unless I find out differently. I'm gonna take what you say is the truth. Um, because I don't have, I just don't have the bandwidth to be like, huh, to do the, to do the detective work, to be checking your phone. If I, if I'm suspicious that something's going on, then I'm gonna say that.

• 22:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. Is this something that you normally like, in your experience? Do you have these conversations like first date? Is it before you even go out with this person? Are you meeting people on specific sites to make sure that you guys are in line? Because I remember in my day, I would see that you'd be, you'd think everything's good and maybe you missed it on their profile. And it would be like, by the way, I'm married. And you're like, what? Or they wouldn't say anything and they'd be like, oh yeah, I have a girlfriend. And you're like, wait, when were you like, so are you looking for open? Does she know about this? Like, how do you find something like this that actually does feel safe and secure for you?

• 23:16Speaker 02

  In my profile, I always say open relationship, um, so that that's already on the table. And I also had no problem talking about my partner. Um, and so like, that's also a dead giveaway. And then for me personally, I'm also a public person. So like, just do a little Google, you'll find my partner. Um, so, so that's, but I like to leave with that because I don't want to surprise anyone and I'm not ashamed of it. Um, and I want to know, and this about anything, I want to know from date one if we're a match. And so like, I'm not gonna try and hide things that might be a deal breaker for you. Um, I'm gonna tell you straight up, oh, I have a partner or I have two partners or, and this is the situation and, and how do you feel about it?

• 23:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Do you go beyond two? Would you have like three?

• 23:58Speaker 02

  No, I was telling you this offline. When I started my poly, polyship, um, my partners all had partners.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Lovely. It's great.

• 24:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Everybody had their everybody.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Everybody had everybody. And then, and then my husband broke up with his partner, my other partner broke up with his partner, and suddenly I was the sole partner. And then you know what happened? Fires broke out in L.A. And I had two partners. And I was the only partner.

• 24:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, you're the only partner. So you then have to navigate.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Evacuating with, suddenly like, we, and our relationship isn't a throuple, so we keep it separate. But suddenly the three of us are in a house in Santa Barbara.

• 24:34Sabrina Zohar?

  Do they talk? Like, do they interact?

• 24:36Speaker 02

  They're, yeah, they're friends. They're like, they're, they're cool. They're not like, they're not hanging out on their own, but they, they have a, they're very, care about each other. They always check up on each other, ask about each other. But they're not in a relationship together. So it was, we were thrust into like, living together for a couple of days.

• 24:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Do you just now, do you just go bed to bed? Like, do you just decide?

• 24:55Speaker 02

  That is how, that's how it happened. There was, there was a lot of conversation about how to make this work, but it was like, alright, I'll spend the day. Cause my husband would work during the day in Santa Barbara, so he was out during the day. So me and my boyfriend would hang out, and then he would come home, boyfriend would go to his room, and I would hang out. I hated it.

• 25:11Sabrina Zohar?

  That's how, I was like, no, they, it's like Sister Wides on steroids.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  I hated it. I hated it. Don't want it. That is not, I don't like, shout out to those who can do it. I don't want that. That's not the version of poly that I, which is funny, like, I didn't think about that. I never thought about my partners having breakups. I just assumed, oh, great. Cause, cause when my, when my husband and I were dating people, I was like, I learned very quickly, I can only date somebody who's also polyamorous or non-monogamous. Because if they're monogamous, eventually they're gonna want this, and I can't give that to them. And so we both were like, yeah, we can only date other people who have partners. And so that's what we were doing. But I never considered that they would break up with their partner.

• 25:49Sabrina Zohar?

  That it would, cause when you, when you did that two and a half years ago, you've been with a partner for a minute, your boyfriend, you're like, didn't see this one coming?

• 25:55Speaker 02

  Didn't see it coming.

• 25:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Didn't plan that. Or didn't plan for the fires and for us to have to leave.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 25:59Sabrina Zohar?

  I mean, and that's the thing, is like, I'll see sometimes on threads or whatever, I'll be fucking dicking around, and you'll see this like, you know, why are they in a dating app if they're in an open relationship?

• 26:07Speaker 02

  Oh, I hate that shit up. Get out of here.

• 26:09Sabrina Zohar?

  It's like, hey, girl, here's a thought. People are on dating apps because some people are newly single. Somebody maybe just got their heart broken and wants to dip their toes. Newly single because their partner died. Maybe they have been single for 10 years and they want to put themselves out there. Just because you have your lived experience as to why you're using a dating app doesn't mean everybody else is going to match that. And at the end of the day, it's like content. You're like, you don't like it, keep swiping. Just keep fucking moving.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:32Sabrina Zohar?

  But we don't have to shame or villainize people because Polly works for you, but doesn't work for me. There's nothing wrong with it.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Your lived experience is not the bar.

• 26:39Sabrina Zohar?

  It's not the only one.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  It's not the only, it's like, it's your lived experience, but other people have their own and what they need and they're gonna get what they need and you get what you need.

• 26:48Sabrina Zohar?

  This episode is sponsored by Fabletics. You guys, I legitimately got my entire family obsessed with Fabletics. I got my mom and I matching Pure Luxe leggings. She has eight colors now. Every single time we walk by the store or go online, the first thing she says is, wait, wait, do they have any new ones? They have become a staple in our home and I also surprised Ryan with an amazing pair of the shorts. They're called the Infinite Short. Oh my God, he's going on 40 miles for his 40th birthday. And of course he has decked out in head to toe Fabletics and so am I because your girl is joining him on the walk and we're gonna match because it is the most comfortable. It is so affordable. The quality is unbelievable and the styles are so comfortable. You could go from day to night, whether it be coffee runs, a walk, a weekend trip, whatever you guys need, they have.

• 27:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Whether it be to and from or active wear or leisure, Fabletics has your back. And shop now at fabletics.com/sabrina to get 70 to 80% off everything when you sign up as a new VIP. All you have to do is take a quick style quiz and be sure to select Sabrina when prompted to unlock this offer. This is a limited time offer, so don't wait. Again, that's fabletics.com/sabrina for 70 to 80% off everything as a new VIP. What does Polly give you? I'm curious. If anyone's listening right now going, maybe this is for me. What do you get from it that you're like, I love this or I hate it?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Here's what I love about it and part of this might be like, I think I do have like an undiagnosed ADHD brain a little bit. And so there is, there is like a joy that I get from different energy and learning from different energy. Because there's one thing that this partner can teach me and that we're aligned on over on across these types of things. But then this partner and I are aligned on these types of things. And I get all of that kind of fulfilled. And I get to learn new things and I get to learn about new people. And so that part of it, I really like. And also, by the way, when two partners are telling you, you do X, Y and Z, you're like, oh, I do that. Don't I? You know what I'm saying? Like, you can't, you can't dispute it.

• 28:42Sabrina Zohar?

  It's not just biased.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  No, like, we had dinner one time, it was like the three of us at dinner. And they were like, tag team. And I was like, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay, I guess I do that. Okay, fine. But it's like, oh, cool. Like, there's something I can improve there. So there's, I don't know, there's those checks and balances that I, that I love in terms of somebody who likes self-improvement. And I think it just, I don't know, it satisfies my soul. And there's, that's kind of inexplicable. There's no way to describe that. It's like something that just satisfies my soul and makes me feel like this is how I want to live my life. And it feels right and it feels good. In the same way that I imagine for somebody, monogamy satisfies their soul.

• 29:20Sabrina Zohar?

  It works for you.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:21Sabrina Zohar?

  My heart goes out to anybody that like, if your automatic response, if your partner comes to you and says, you know, I want, I want to open the relationship. I'm realizing, my heart breaks if anybody thinks, well, is am I not enough? Are you not attracted to me?

• 29:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Can you go in a little bit more about maybe dispelling that a little bit? Like, it's not because, oh, I don't want to fuck my partner anymore. So I'm just gonna go around and do that. What do you hear? When you, like, what do you feel or see or hear when you hear that? Because I know that that's what people are thinking.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Well, there are two things that happen. Because one time, well, sometimes that is true. That is what's happening. That somebody's afraid of saying the truth and speaking up. And so I think this is why polyamory and I'm monogamy gets a bad rap at times too. Because there are people who don't know how to communicate with their feeling or express what they're feeling. Or they don't want to hurt somebody. And so they do it in this roundabout way of saying, let's open the relationship or let's explore polyamory. When really, it's like, I'm no longer into this. But in reality, it's about expanding. And it's like, I love my husband and I want him to experience all the glories this life has to give. And there are things that I just won't be able to offer. On a basic level, we talk about this, which is like, my husband loves hiking and he loves camping. This New Yorker?

• 30:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, no, thank you.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Baby, please. I barely wanna see Central Park. What you mean, you taking me to the hill, girl? Get the fuck out of here. But he should be able to experience that and in a way of romance. And so like, the idea of him meeting somebody who can fulfill that with him is really exciting to me. Um, and, and makes me feel great as well. Um, and it's experience that I think he deserves. Like, just because I don't like to hike or camp, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be able to do that and feel romance when you do that.

• 30:59Sabrina Zohar?

  It's called Broke Neck Mountain for a reason. Like, I'm, I'm good, I'm good. I remember the first time I went there, I was like, I did almost die.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna do that. I did the Griff- Griff- Griffin tra- is that what it's called? Mm-hmm, there you go, see how you know?

• 31:12Sabrina Zohar?

  You'll see, I was like, you'll see Ryan out there, you're like, no, I won't.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  I won't be there, love, I don't like that, but he likes it. But I think it's like, you think about it as expanding. Like, your partner is expanding and you want them to expand into the fullness of who they are. And this is a way that they might be able to do that. Um, it doesn't, it's not about you. It's not something to take personal. And I think that's why I don't get jealous, cuz I know I'm that bitch. Hello?

• 31:34Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, you are.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Like, I know I'm a catch.

• 31:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  I work on myself, I'm a great partner. So I'm not threatened by my partner saying, oh, I wanna do X, Y, and Z with this person. Cuz like, yeah, I don't wanna do that. And that is not, that's not my strength. So go over there and have that, but like, we're gonna come back here. This is why the communication is number one, it's priority.

• 31:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Like, anything.

• 31:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Even Ryan's friend, he tried it. He was newly single and he was like, I'm gonna go on Field.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:58Sabrina Zohar?

  And I recommend, is that the app?

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, shout out to Field, yeah.

• 32:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Field to me is like, the app that you would go on.

• 32:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 32:04Sabrina Zohar?

  He tried it cuz he was like, he was just newly single, he was like, I just wanna like, have fun and I wanna see what's out there. He tried it, he met a girl, he actually really liked her. And then he realized, didn't he, he was like, I can't do this. I don't want ethically non-monogamous, I don't want Polly, I actually just want her.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:18Sabrina Zohar?

  And that was okay, like, and he came out going, I'm gonna delete the app, this isn't for me. Notice how like, I'm like, there's nothing wrong with that because you had an experience, you went out there. Cuz at first I was like, are you cool with this? And he was like, yeah, I'm good. And I was like, I know him well enough, I was like, no, you're, you're, you want one person.

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:33Sabrina Zohar?

  You want to, it's okay, you have every right to do that.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:36Sabrina Zohar?

  But to her, she was like, I'm cool with this, like, my partner Nose like it was not a big deal and he tried and he tried but he was like I have feelings for her. I don't want her going home to someone else and I think that that's really fair. At the very least, you tried.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:47Sabrina Zohar?

  You tried, you put yourself out there. Now, again, for me, I struggled when I dated multiple people because you're like, oh, wait, I forgot what this person told me. But I think there's a difference between the intentionality, right? You're not just going out on dates, on dates, on dates so that you can like check things off a list. To your point, it's about the experience you're having. Opening.

• 33:06Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:07Sabrina Zohar?

  Broadening.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:08Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, let's get to some questions. There's an expansion. All right, you ready for a question?

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:12Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, because I was like, we can talk about this. Okay. Dear Sabrina and team. Episode 185, what heartbreak teaches you about love. You shared how you had casual sex as a way to seek love. That deeply resonated with me. As a gay man in Berlin, I spent my twenties in a pattern of hookups, one-on-one, threesome, bathhouse, constantly chasing connection through sex. That does sound like a good time, though. I'm not gonna lie.

• 33:28Speaker 02

  Especially Berlin.

• 33:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Right. I was gonna say, I was like, I'm not, I'm not saying everyone should do this, but I slept my way through Manhattan to understand what I liked. That's how I found my sexuality and like, when a man tied me up for the first time, I was like, I didn't think I was gonna love that as much as I did. Yes, daddy. Okay. It worked until early symptoms of depression emerged, which intensified after a one-night-stand turned into a situationship. He eventually told me he wasn't interested in dating me seriously and I went no contact, which was one year ago. I crashed and spent time in a psych ward and continued therapy after. In therapy, I realized I was having sex to numb deep feelings of loneliness and unworthiness. I get you.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Now, even though I want a stable, healthy relationship, I feel no sexual desire. When I tried dating one guy I met through friends after five months of sexual inactivity, I couldn't access the playfulness and lust I used to have. My body simply didn't respond, even with the affection and closeness, despite me being attracted to him a lot. I ended up, I ended things when his behavior became disrespectful. Thank you, Sabrina, for teaching me how to set boundaries and when to walk away. I am celibate for three months now and again, the idea of sexual intimacy feels foreign to me. My question is, what can I expect on my healing journey and in my nervous system? What needs to happen and what can I do for me to reconnect with this vital joyful part of my life? For context, I masturbate occasionally before my, based on my mood. I have no history of chemsex or drug use and I have not taken antidepressants, so side effects aren't a factor. Thank you for your honesty and the no BS compassion you share here often in my ears when I go for a walk to self-regulate or simply need comfort.

• 34:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Friends and I constantly share your content. Thank you for the work you do. Sending love from Berlin. Is there anything that comes to you in my, because I don't know if you've ever experienced anything like this?

• 34:56Speaker 02

  I mean, a couple of things. One, the first thing I thought was, I would love for him or this person to talk to a sex therapist. Just like to have, you know, especially since there's a history of depression, to have somebody who like deals with sex. And to have that combination in the mental health space, I think would be very, very great and beneficial. The other thing is masturbating, not just when you're in the mood, but DB, she's a wonderful educator and podcaster. She, I forget the program that she created, but it's like a 14 day masturbation symposium or something like that. It's like every day you masturbate, which is to really get you in the habit.

• 35:39Speaker 02

  As opposed to when you don't do something for a while, it becomes harder to do it. And so just like every day, I think, or seven days, if you want, just like setting the mood, lighting candles for yourself and getting to learn your body. Without the pressure of needing to orgasm, without the pressure of needing to ejaculate, but just like, can you, can you create a space that is inviting for you to learn your body again? Cause I don't even want to talk about another person yet. It's like, this is really about your relationship to your body. And so like truly giving yourself those seven days and saying, I'm going to spend seven days, an hour each day. That is dedicated to me, learning my body, touching my body, playing with toys, watching, if I need to watch something, if I need to,

• 36:22Speaker 02

  not sniff a popper, but you know what I'm saying, like sniff some essential oils.

• 36:27Sabrina Zohar?

  The gay New Yorker and you're just.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  I was like sniff something, I was like, oh, they go, they did the wrong way. Some lavender, love, some lavender. But just like re, re getting into your body is a really important thing and doing it solo. And I say that for everything. Cause we can't tell people what we want if we don't know what we want ourselves. And so you have to always start with the, the individual.

• 36:47Sabrina Zohar?

  And I think that for me, I understand this person because I used to use sex to connect with people.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:51Sabrina Zohar?

  When I stopped doing that, I then had to figure out who I was. I had to figure out, what did I actually like, right? Like, I used to wanna be the girl in the pornos of like, I'm gonna rock his world. I'm gonna, I'm gonna fuck and I'm gonna go down on this guy and make him regret the day he ever tried standing with me. And like, I had men tell me honestly, like, oh, I struggled to break up with you because the sex was so great. Like, I did, but I knew I didn't wanna hurt you. I didn't wanna string you along. And so even when I met Ryan, I had to then learn like, hey, you don't have to lead with that. Like, sure, we had sex on the first date, multiple times, and, right, we did it.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:24Sabrina Zohar?

  And, but then after, it was like, I couldn't maintain that, right? Once we got into a relationship, you're like, all right, it goes down to a couple of times a week. Like, I can't, I can't have sex with you six times in the afternoon, like.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  We're busy. We got, we gotta work. We got a podcast.

• 37:35Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm fucking cowboy walking after this, right? And just like, you're, and also to your point, like, life happens. I start to get stressed. And then you realize, like, I need an emotional connection. I don't just wanna frivolously. And so maybe that could also be it, is because I think for so long, Michael was using his body to connect, that now it's like, but what about who you are to connect? And then the intimacy and the sex becomes the cherry on top. You wanna make sure that you're having fun when you're doing it, and it's not like a da da. But I also think that now it's about rediscovering, what do you actually like? Not, what do you need to do to make sure that they like you?

• 38:05Speaker 02

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• 38:06Sabrina Zohar?

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• 38:48Sabrina Zohar?

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• 39:32Sabrina Zohar?

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• 39:38Speaker 02

  Can I also add this because of this person? They're queer, right?

• 39:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  Sometimes queer shame comes into play. Not sometimes, a lot of times queer shame comes into play. And so I would be curious about that outside of sex. Like, what is this person's relationship to their queerness? How do they feel about it? And has sex been a way to numb their relationship to their queerness? Because sometimes we're uncomfortable in our queerness. We can, I do this, like, drink or do drugs and, like, just fuck. And, like, get out of, like, the shame that you're feeling about the fact that you have queer sex. And so if there's any shame underlying the sex, it's gonna show up here. And so, you know, I think looking at that. And Todd Barat, I forget the name of his book, but he talks about queer shame and masturbating. And oftentimes queer folks will masturbate, like, in very secret,

• 40:25Speaker 02

  like, in the bathroom with the door closed or in the dark. And that's why I'm saying, like, make it an event. Like, open the environment up. Do it in your bedroom, music, loud noises. Like, really allow yourself to discover as opposed to feeling it needs to be this thing that you're ashamed of.

• 40:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Get animalistic.

• 40:40Speaker 02

  Yes, get feral with it.

• 40:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Love it. Okay. Want to do a profile?

• 40:44Speaker 02

  I would love to.

• 40:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. So, I'm gonna read it to you.

• 40:46Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 40:47Sabrina Zohar?

  You've seen it already. But I will read it to you. You can pull it up, too. And then I will have it come onto the screen.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 40:53Sabrina Zohar?

  For everybody else. If you're breaking down in the trenches, I'd love feedback. "After one rocky date followed by a weekend of insane anxious dread over someone I'd only dated a month, I discovered your podcast. It's an exaggeration to say not only did you help me give me the tools to calm my anxious brain, but I genuinely more..." Secure as a person than perhaps ever before in my adult life. I swear I don't write these. Case in point, the person sent me the we have a friend vibe text a couple of weeks later and I feel fine, not spiraling or taking it as personal.

• 41:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Just grateful for the experience. So I'd love to see what you say. Okay, we have the first photo of him. Uh selfie. Then I'm looking for someone I can both yap with, but also enjoy the quiet time, someone with emotional intelligence and a growth mindset who knows when and when not to take things too seriously. Basically a best friend who I think is hot. Then we have his info atheist from Fort Worth liberal, uh long-term relationship open to short. Okay, we're gonna get to that. Then we have selfie at the gym. Then we have him pointing to boxes. I have the slightest idea what we're pointing to.

• 41:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Is it the thermostat or is it a gray? I don't know. I'll fall for you if you can do that thing where you puff the hair out of your face, Little Mermaid style.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Puff the hair out of your face, Little Mermaid. So I feel like I should know this.

• 42:00Sabrina Zohar?

  I feel like I don't know this. I'm like, am I a bad millennial? Uh then we have another one with you and your kitty cat, a life goal of mine fulfill a 12-year-old James's, James's biggest dream and become a published author. Then we have photo and your sneakers. Okay, put your phone down.

• 42:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Three things you remember about his profile and about James in general.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  Three things I remember about his profile. I remember there was a cat. I remember there was a thermostat and I remember that he wore a hat a lot.

• 42:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so that's exactly why this profile is not working for James. Because you don't, there's nothing memorable about it. There was nothing that you're like, oh my God, I remember he said this really awesome thing that I resonated with. It was like, even that's the first thing. Off the bat, we have to remember that like, and this isn't about playing a game. This is about the fact that you've got a ton of fucking people. You got package yourself, like what? Maybe it's just the two actors and us are like, no, you have to sell yourself.

• 42:50Sabrina Zohar?

  So off the bat, what are any feedback that you had initially that you want to share before I start fucking going in on poor James?

• 42:55Speaker 02

  Well, one thing is take the hat off. The hat really covers your eyes and your face and I'm not dating your hat. I want to be able to see you.

• 43:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Four out of five photos as a hat.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, so like that's the thing. Cause then that also, it makes me unconsciously think that you're ashamed of your hair or your hairline. And by the way, I love a bald man. I think a bald man is sexy. And so I'm always like, take the hat, like.

• 43:17Sabrina Zohar?

  Don't hat fish me.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Don't have, yeah. Also because we gonna find out you bald anyway.

• 43:24Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't know if I ever told you or the audience. Oh my God, I was maybe, I was 19. And this was back in New York in the Lower East Side. It was still grungy and dirty. And there was like this bar in the back of a thing, you know, how New York is. Somehow I found myself there at 2:00 in the morning with my friends. And there's this Aussie guy, I think it was Aussie or New Zealand, I can't remember. Total smoke show. Like, had a style, was wearing the hat, he had long hair, really great face. Just of rock and ball, like just, I was like feeling him.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:51Sabrina Zohar?

  And I remember all my friends were like, "Get it!" And we're making out and he has, and then all of a sudden, he takes the hat off. And I literally audibly gasped. It was nothing at the top besides like two strands of hair covered over. And then he had the long hair.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  I'm horrified, I'm horrified.

• 44:07Sabrina Zohar?

  It was like the serial killer, like-

• 44:09Speaker 02

  You have to shave it all off.

• 44:10Sabrina Zohar?

  It was so bad. And I literally went, "Ah!" And gasped because I was like, "Oh my god." I felt, then at that point, I just was like, "I don't know." And it wa- again, no shame. I wish he had taken the hat off-

• 44:20Speaker 02

  From the jump.

• 44:21Sabrina Zohar?

  From the jump! And I could have, but I was just so startled. And especially with like, I'm talking-

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Especially if this is gone, I don't know who needs to hear this. This also has to go.

• 44:29Sabrina Zohar?

  This progressive bit.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  And this is going, this is going.

• 44:31Sabrina Zohar?

  And you know it's like the one hair that they like comb over? And I was like, "Where are the pedophile glasses that you just like finished the look?"

• 44:37Speaker 02

  If you're not going to Turkey tomorrow, love, shave it all off. Like, I don't know, what are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing?!

• 44:42Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's again, no shame if you don't have hair, that's not the point.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  I love a bald man, like I said.

• 44:46Sabrina Zohar?

  But let's see it. I know, I find it sexy.

• 44:47Speaker 02

  Show it to me from the jump.

• 44:49Sabrina Zohar?

  So let me see it.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  Cause I'm gonna see it eventually. And I wanna know you're confident about it.

• 44:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. I was mortified.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:54Sabrina Zohar?

  We did not go out again after that. And also he like was sloppy and it was not cute at the end. And it started to freak me out. He was getting really pushy and I started feeling uncomfortable. And I was like, "No, thank you."

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Also, he's looking down in all his photos.

• 45:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Yes.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  I, I need to see your eyes. They're all, he's, cause he's holding a selfie but it's always looking down.

• 45:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Too many selfies. Too many selfies. First photo being-

• 45:13Speaker 02

  I want your friends, I know you have, want you to know, you have friends?

• 45:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I know you have friends.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  They had to take a photos for you.

• 45:17Sabrina Zohar?

  And I, the first one being a selfie is not because I can't connect with you. And then I'm like, "Oh, eh, you're taking too many photos of yourself."

• 45:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Then, okay, let's go into prompts.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 45:26Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm looking for someone, I'm looking for-

• 45:30Sabrina Zohar?

  I really struggle with the I'm looking for because my issue with a lot of these, Ryan and I talk about this all the time. People are really bad at self identifying and so then you're telling me all of these things I need to be, but I don't know who the fuck you are.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  Who you are. Oh, that's good. That's good. That's good.

• 45:42Sabrina Zohar?

  So I'm looking for someone I can both yap with, but also enjoy the quiet with, someone with emotional intelligence and a growth mindset who knows when and when not to take things too seriously. Basically a best friend who I think is hot. What are your thoughts on that?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Who is that?

• 45:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, exactly. Who is that? Does this person exist?

• 45:57Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, but like we all want a hot best friend, like whatever, like tell me something specific. I don't know.

• 46:02Sabrina Zohar?

  And then someone with emotional intelligence and growth mindset, most people are not that advanced to be able to be like, that's me.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:09Sabrina Zohar?

  You know what I see all the fucking time? I see this on dating profiles and it drives me insane. I'm looking for someone secure and it's like, first of all, most people believe they're secure. Very few people are being like, I'm an avoidant piece of shit who's gonna fucking waste your time and string you along.

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Tea.

• 46:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Or I'm so anxious I can't sit still. Most people want to identify as secure. So saying that that's what it is that you're looking for completely takes away the fact that this person's probably gonna disappoint you. Or I'm looking for someone that wants a relationship. Okay, everybody says that, right? Most people are saying that. And it's the same way, because it's funny, we had a quiz on the website, which we redid, so go take it. And I redid it because it was like 95% of people were identifying as secure.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 46:47Sabrina Zohar?

  And I was like, I know you're not. I know you're not.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  I see that.

• 46:50Sabrina Zohar?

  And the reason being is because when I started to look at the questions and the way that we had done this, I was like, this is what you aspire to be, but you're not being honest about who you actually are.

• 46:58Speaker 02

  Where you are right now.

• 46:59Sabrina Zohar?

  So that's my first thing. Then we go into long-term relationship, open to short. To me, fuckboy central.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  The bald and the hair, like you in between something. Like what's happening? Do you want long-term or do you want open to short? Like what's happening? One or the other.

• 47:14Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm not saying James is a fuckboy, but that's the fuckboy behavior you see of like, oh, I want long, but I'm open to short is like, I'm sure you are.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  I'm sure you are.

• 47:22Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm sure you are.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  We are open to hookups, love.

• 47:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly. All of us are. What I would say is like, long-term relationship and maybe you can put in of like, wanna make, like not looking to get married tomorrow, but I wanna make sure that we align.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 47:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Then on the date, you can be honest with someone and go, hey, I don't feel a long-term connection. I would much prefer maybe a casual. Thing, are you open to that? You'd be surprised how many people will be like, yeah.

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:43Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm cool with that.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  Who doesn't want to get laid? I mean.

• 47:46Sabrina Zohar?

  It depends on if you like the person.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  That's fair, that's fair.

• 47:48Sabrina Zohar?

  There's the gay community coming out.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, yeah, we're gonna.

• 47:52Sabrina Zohar?

  And the girls are like, no, no, no, no, no.

• 47:53Speaker 02

  No, not me, not me, you're right, you're right.

• 47:55Sabrina Zohar?

  So then we go into gym selfie, same thing. It's a gym selfie, it's not really showing me. I haven't the slightest idea what he's pointing at.

• 48:02Speaker 02

  This is what I'm saying, you need friends, oh, I guess this one is somebody took a photo of it.

• 48:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Someone did, but I don't, but you're pointing at a white wall. Or a great board, it's covered by boxes, so then we don't know the context, okay.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:13Sabrina Zohar?

  I'll fall for you, you can do that thing where you puff the hair out of your face a little more.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  I mean, unless you're going for a specific demographic who that would mean something to. And that's like your like cheat code, I don't know.

• 48:24Sabrina Zohar?

  That better be a non-negotiable.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Then we go into the photo of you and the cat, I hope that's your cat.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:29Sabrina Zohar?

  Otherwise.

• 48:29Speaker 02

  Otherwise it's.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Otherwise it's frog.

• 48:34Sabrina Zohar?

  The cat girls are gonna be like, I am offended.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 48:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Uh, life goal of mine fulfilled, 12 year old James' biggest dream and become a published author. Give me more, because, okay, here's the thing.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  But what do you do? Now, see, I'm confused, what do you actually do?

• 48:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Then we have a picture of your converse, don't know, don't need that. And then we have a photo of you at Rockefeller Center, okay, fine, that's the only one I can try, finally see you. Here's the thing, I know absolutely nothing about you besides that you wanna, you like The Little Mermaid, maybe a weird fetish, I don't know.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:58Sabrina Zohar?

  Do you like a redhead? And that you want cute, and that you have a life goal of becoming an author, but you know what? The problem with this profile, what it does is it takes the onus all on the person trying to match with you.

• 49:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Right?

• 49:09Speaker 02

  You haven't offered anything. If your profile needs to be a little more vulnerable, quite honestly, like if you're trying to find a long-term relationship, it's gonna require a little more vulnerability, you need to share a little bit more about yourself, which he hasn't done. I don't know what he does for work, I don't know what his favorite movie is, maybe it's The Little Mermaid.

• 49:26Speaker 02

  Which, T, work?

• 49:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Right, right.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  Get it? Um, I don't know, like, what, even like where he, I mean, I know where he lives, but even like the, the backgrounds of the photos, like, what are you actually into? Like, are you into hiking, are you into camping, are you into karaoke? Like, show me you, also show me you enjoy, I don't know about. Gays have this problem. Everyone wants to pose. I want to see you enjoy. Like, if this is a sex app, fine, pose for me. But if we're supposed to date, I want to see, I want to see you laughing. I want to see you smiling. I want to know you're not a killer.

• 49:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Which we talked about offline because we were talking about not wanting to date or marry serial killers.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Because they exist.

• 50:01Speaker 02

  They do exist, and people, that great talk, should I marry a murderer?

• 50:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Thanks for the documentary Netflix, he gave us more to talk about.

• 50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing I see with dating profiles is like, I remember when I had mine, I had my one of depth.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 50:15Sabrina Zohar?

  To see who could align. And then I had, uh, the sign of a great first date, um, it actually happens, not looking for a pen pal or a hookup. And so it was like, okay, put my clear, and then it was like, one thing about me that you should know about is I eat dinner to get a dessert and snacks are a must, what's in your bag?

• 50:28Speaker 02

  The specificity of that, I want. I always say, I love a chocolate chip cookie, a non-negotiable.

• 50:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Very specific, and also fun and silly, and like, I'm.

• 50:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Then I can go, where are we getting one?

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Where are we?

• 50:38Sabrina Zohar?

  First date, you want to go get a chocolate. That was one member we talked online about, when I saw Nick Kroll at a restaurant, it was because a guy took me to a dessert restaurant.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 50:46Sabrina Zohar?

  And, and I was like, I remember being like, what a sign, I saw my favorite actor here.

• 50:51Sabrina Zohar?

  It wasn't a sign, don't worry, he lasted two months and goes out, and then I met Ryan, but.

• 50:55Speaker 02

  So it was a sign, there you go.

• 50:56Sabrina Zohar?

  It was a sign.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  It was like a pre, a premonition.

• 50:57Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, that, that wasn't for me.

• 50:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:59Sabrina Zohar?

  But, I remember that because the amount of guys and straight heterosexual women, that would respond back and be like, oh, my, have you had this? Have you, because I was giving them something to start a conversation with.

• 51:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:11Sabrina Zohar?

  I wasn't making, like, I don't know about you, but when I try to hit on people in the wild, I would struggle because you're like, alright, he's wearing all black, he's wearing Nike.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  I know.

• 51:19Sabrina Zohar?

  There's like, nothing on him, he's wearing black, and so you go up and you're like, where'd you get those?

• 51:23Speaker 02

  I know, it's really hard.

• 51:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Black vans, and you're like.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Babe, I'm trying to get in here.

• 51:27Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm trying in here.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  You ain't giving me nothing to work with, love.

• 51:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Or then they like, look at you like you have three heads, like, I was a guy on the train, and I remember I had to, I was like, where'd you get that shirt from? I was like, it's my brother's birthday, I wanted to get him one. And the guy was like, like stumbled and put his headphone back in, and I was like.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  It's like direct communication, I can't handle that.

• 51:45Sabrina Zohar?

  No, and you're like, okay. And so that's the thing is like, all of this fetish of, I want to meet somebody in person. I don't want to meet them on a dating app. Well, then baby, you need to be okay getting rejected in person.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:53Sabrina Zohar?

  You need to be okay with someone telling you to your face, I'm not interested, or I have a girlfriend or boyfriend, or no, thank you.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I wish I had that stamina. I want, I want that armor. Cause I think that there's a lost art in hitting on people in person, which I can do after a couple of margaritas. I really can. I'm a great, after a couple of margaritas, baby, I got this.

• 52:10Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm good at doing it if you're in my proximity. So like if we're standing next to each other in line, like I remember once during COVID, I turned around and I was like, huh, the line on this place, huh? And the guy like just didn't say anything and looked at me and I was like, okay. And I just, I was like, I'll just go fuck myself. And I just turned around. But you have to be okay with that.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 52:28Sabrina Zohar?

  That somebody is going to look at you and say, no, thank you.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:31Sabrina Zohar?

  So if you want to fetishize and say, I don't want to be in a dating app, that's fine, boo, you choose you. But then be okay with someone in person telling you no. Be okay with people rejecting you and be okay with walking home and saying, that didn't work out. That doesn't mean that it's not for you. That just means that that person wasn't for you. So if you want to say that dating apps are trash and all this, bitch, who do you think these people are? The same people out in the public or the same people on a fucking dating app?

• 52:52Speaker 02

  1,000%.

• 52:53Sabrina Zohar?

  I remember I fetishized a story of the guy, I've told the audience about this a million times, this guy that was from Utah. And we met out at a workout class and I remember, and then I saw the motherfucker on Hinge like a week later and I was like, okay. So I thought this whole cute meet and I was like, but I would have met him online anyways. Like it was the same thing. And so I don't want people to have the polarity. Like you're allowed to meet anybody, anywhere, whether it be Field or Hinge or Bumble or fucking Timbuktu or E-Harmin, I don't give a fuck.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  However you connect is how you connect.

• 53:17Sabrina Zohar?

  How, just be okay with that not everybody is out there looking for what you're looking for.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  And not being compatible has nothing to do with your worth. It's not a reflection of your worth.

• 53:26Sabrina Zohar?

  No.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  If we're not compatible, we're not compatible. It doesn't mean I need to go change myself now. I see that all the time where people get out of a relationship and now they feel like they gotta fix themselves. And it's like, no, you just weren't compatible.

• 53:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Take ownership of what you need to take ownership for.

• 53:38Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 53:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like if I'm, if I'm a mental case that's screaming at my partner in a TJ Maxx because I didn't get my way, go to therapy.

• 53:46Speaker 02

  That's you, babe.

• 53:46Sabrina Zohar?

  That's you. But if it's just like, hey, this person came to me and said they want an open relationship, that doesn't mean I'm not enough for them. That just means that maybe this just isn't right for them.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  This isn't their dynamic for them.

• 53:56Sabrina Zohar?

  Doesn't mean that down the street, there's not a person who is fucking grateful the fact that I exist.

• 53:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Love this.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  Really important to remember.

• 54:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Brandon, you and I could fucking talk forever.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  All day.

• 54:04Sabrina Zohar?

  All day. Where can people find you?

• 54:05Speaker 02

  I'm obsessed with this cheetah. Is it a cheetah?

• 54:07Sabrina Zohar?

  It is. She's something.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  I love her.

• 54:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Thank you.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  She's gold.

• 54:10Sabrina Zohar?

  She's my girl. I was about to say so. I'll get cancelled if I say. She's my girl. I'll just say that.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  She's your girl, yes.

• 54:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Where can people find you if they want to connect?

• 54:17Speaker 02

  They can find me on Instagram at Brandon Call Goodman. They can find me on my website, BrandonCallGoodman.com, or my podcast, Tell Me Something Messy, which is out every Thursday.

• 54:25Sabrina Zohar?

  I love it. Guys, don't forget, follow, go follow, go check out his stuff. I was on his podcast. It was fabulous.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  It was fabulous. Check out that episode.

• 54:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Ah, it's so good. Guys, thank you so much for sitting with us. I hope that anybody that listened today got something out of this because no matter who you are, where you are, or what you are, you deserve love like the rest of us. So, I fucking love you. Guys, don't forget to rate and review. Share this with a friend that you think it would be helpful for, and I will see you guys next week.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 54:59Speaker 00

  Fall never arrives all at once. First the air, then the light, and slowly the things you love begin to find each other. A jacket meets a dress, a hoodie slips beneath a blazer, an old cap finds a new scarf. Because you don't simply step into the season, you create it, layer by layer, until it finally feels like fall. Find fall your way at Ross.