Some More Herodotean Madness (Herodotus Bk. 3, pt. 3)

More Herodotus because why not at the end of the day? AVAILABLE NOW! The Odyssey: a Modern Retelling. https://geni.us/TheOdysseyBook Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Enter ourpodcast guest https://www.mythsbaby.com/contact form if you'd like to be on the show as a conversation guest! CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Sources: Herodotus' Histories, translated by Tom Holland. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

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• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/grouptrip.

• 0:43Speaker 01

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• 0:46Speaker 02

  We'll have room for fried cookies.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Okay, you'd never overspend on food. What's your deal?

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  What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy 837 5G for free and no activation fees.

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  Bring your number and activate $40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days.

• 1:13Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Hannah Berner from Giggly Squad and the holidays are around the corner, which means I'm officially entering my Hostess Hannah era with Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. You guys know I love cats and fostering, but when I'm hosting, I do not want my house smelling like cats. I want people focusing on my hosting skills. That's why I love Arm & Hammer Hardball Cat Litter. It delivers long-lasting odor control and forms compact clumps that make cleanup easy, so that's one less thing I need to worry about when people come over. Be guest-ready with Arm & Hammer Cat Litter. Find it now at Walmart or Amazon.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  Hey, hi, hello, and welcome back to Let's Talk About Myths, baby. It's your resident history nerd here to bring you some more horridous goodness. And given that we have two episodes left together, I think it's best to just dive right in.

• 2:43Speaker 00

  Some more horridity and madness. Horridous Book Three, Part Three.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  Last time we spoke, we started with the general madness of Cambyses, and I want you all to remember a specific story, that being the story of his brother Smurtus, who he had put to death because of a dream about Smurtus sitting upon the throne while Cambyses was away. I think I said that we were going to get back into speaking about Smurtus at some point, but I cannot quite recall. Regardless, here we are talking about a Smurtus again. Not that first Smurtus, though, no, a different one. For, you see, while Cambyses was away in Egypt, a rebellion had started to stir in Persia. This was being headed by two Magian brothers who had served as stewards. Smurtus's death had been kept under wraps. They didn't

• 3:44Speaker 00

  want it to be well-known amongst the people that Cambyses had had his own brother killed. But these brothers, the Magian brothers, well, they found out about it. They started to plot to figure out what they would do. One of the brothers very conveniently looked an awful lot like Smurtus, Cambyses's brother, son of Cyrus. Not only did he look a whole lot like Smurtus, but he was also named Smurtus, which is great and not at all confusing at all. But you know what? Alas. The Magian Smurtus's brother's name, wow, say that 10 times fast, was Patyzethes. And I'm guessing he was the mastermind behind all this because he told his brother to not worry, he's got it. And then he had him sit upon the throne. Patyzethes

• 4:27Speaker 00

  then had heralds go off, especially off to Egypt, to let all the armies know that from now on, they were only to take orders from Smurtus, son of Cyrus, and not that other son of Cyrus. Well, these heralds did their jobs and hopped to all the various places they had been sent to. But the herald who was sent to go to Egypt, well, on his way there, he happened upon Cambyses in Syria at Agbatana, where he promptly got up and publicly told everyone the news, "Smurtus, son of Cyrus, sits upon the throne, and we all to listen to him and follow his orders from now on." Cambyses did not like this one bit, as we might expect. And his dear friend, Praxaspeis, you remember Praxaspeis,

• 5:09Speaker 00

  right? The one who was sent to go kill Smurtus in the first place and either killed him while they were off hunting, or there was a light drowning, you know, that guy. Well, Cambyses turned to Praxaspeis and said, "Well, I guess you didn't listen to me one bit and have not done a single thing that I have asked you to do, now have you?" Praxaspeis was shitting his pants, I guess, because Cambyses does not seem like the guy you want to piss off at this point in history. He was going bonkers. He looks at Cambyses and says, "I promise, I pinky promise, middle finger swear, thumbs kiss that what you asked me to do has been done. Perhaps it would be best to ask the herald what is going on?

• 5:51Speaker 00

  Get more information? Perhaps?" Cambyses felt this was reasonable, which is fair. Okay, he's seeing sense for once, that's good. And so he had the herald come over and asked him, "What's up? Hey, where did you hear that message from? From Smurtus, son of Cyrus, himself?" "No," the herald responded, "no, I've never seen Smurtus, son of Cyrus, once in my entire life." Cambyses was baffled. "Okay, well then, from whom?" he asked. "Well, from the steward you appointed, the Magian. He was the one who gave me the message and told us all to deliver it to the soldiers, to all the army. Told us that this message

• 6:31Speaker 00

  came straight from Smurtus, son of Cyrus, himself." So off we went. Cambyses turned to Praxaspeis and said, "Dude, you're totally off the hook. You absolutely did what I asked of you. But who of the Persians would dare to raise a rebellion against me of all people?" I don't get how he got to this conclusion, but I'm just gonna accept it, you know, for the narrative. Praxaspeis, very gratefully, I suppose, replied, "Perhaps, my lord. Perhaps it was the Magian, because, you know, his brother was named Smurtus as well." This all seemed reasonable enough to Cambyses, and he remembered the dream that he had, the one where he was told that his brother Smurtus was sitting upon the throne and his head

• 7:16Speaker 00

  touched the sky. Well, the messenger in his dreams didn't actually say that it was Smurtus, specifically his brother, son of Cyrus. And, you know, he'd never actually seen Smurtus, son of Cyrus, sitting upon the throne. He just got the message and, oh, shit, it seems the dream is coming true. Who'd have thought? At that, he decided he must be off at once to sort all of it out. So he hopped upon his horse and promptly stabbed himself in the thigh because his sword wasn't properly in its scabbard. Don't know how one misses that, but that's fine. He looked down and realized, "Hey, that looks an awful lot like the spot where I stabbed the god Apis, and, oh, shit, I think this might be a mortal

• 8:01Speaker 00

  wound. Damn." He then turned and asked to some random person, "Where am I?" The closest man responded, "Agbatana." And Cambyses immediately remembered that one oracle had once told him that he was gonna die in Agbatana. He always thought it was gonna be midian Agbatana because he's always there. He never actually even considered that it could possibly be the Syrian Agbatana. And, oh, unfortunately, all the pieces seemed to be coming together, and this just might be where he meets his end. Now, 20 days go by, because, sure, I don't know. And Cambyses got all the Persians who were with him around and told him the

• 8:43Speaker 00

  whole story. And by all the Persians, I do mean the Persian elites he had with him, not the regular people, because antiquity, regular people aren't people. Anyway, he told them all, everything, the whole story. He told them about his dream, about ordering Praxaspeis to go off and deal with Smurtus, son of Cyrus, about the Magian brothers and what they had done. And then he ordered them to deal with the problem after he died and ensure that the Akhenaten stayed on the throne. Because if they didn't, well, then all of Persia would be cursed to live under just terrible conditions, you know, with terrible rulers. They have not Persians ruling them? That's wild. Whatever. And then his wound,

• 9:25Speaker 00

  which I guess was just vibing in the process in the past 20 days, it suddenly turned ganglious, and he promptly died. The Persians all mourned his passing, wailing and beating at their chest as one does when someone dies. But they also decided that his little tale was far too ridiculous and could not be trusted in the least. So of course, the Smurtus that was on the throne at this moment is Smurtus, son of Cyrus, and not some other Smurtus that was hanging around. And how often do I have to say Smurtus in this episode? Guess what? So much. Let's continue on. Praxaspeis, of course, never admitted to killing Smurtus, son of Cyrus, because that doesn't seem like the right move at all. Why admit to killing a potential heir to the throne? Anyways, he let the whole thing continue on as it was,

• 10:10Speaker 00

  and he didn't say a thing for the time being. And, well, Smurtus, definitely not, son of Cyrus, he actually did a pretty good job being in charge, mostly because he was nice to the Persian people, not the elites, wild thought. He took care of them. He allowed them to not join the military for a while. All these things where he was actually prioritizing the people. Wild thing to do, but what am I to say? Who am I to make that sort of judgment? This went on for seven months. Then this guy came along, a guy named Otanes. He was a Persian, the son of Pharnaspeis. He was Persian elite, okay? And he noticed that

• 10:51Speaker 00

  something was amiss. Smurtus never had any of the Persian elite visit him, so he wasn't seen by anyone.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  Otani's daughter was a wife of Cambyses, whose name was Phidemi. Also, love when a daughter has a name, that's refreshing. And after Cambyses had died, all his wives were then married to Smurtus, possibly, son of Cyrus? So, that was his in. Otani's got a hold of his daughter Phidemi and asked her if she knew for sure that this was Smurtus, son of Cyrus. She said that she wasn't sure, as she had never actually seen Smurtus, son of Cyrus, before in her life. He then pressed her to ask Atossa, Cambyses and Smurtus's sister, if this was the same Smurtus, son of Cyrus. She told her father that she couldn't actually speak with Atossa because they had all been removed into separate apartments, so they could never interact.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  Otani's then sent his daughter a final message. "I don't believe this man to be who he says he is. And since you are still my daughter, I demand that you follow my orders, because that's the rules, blah, blah, blah. When next you sleep with him, feel for his ears. If he has ears, then he is indeed Smurtus, son of Cyrus. But if he doesn't, then he is the Magians' Smurtus, because Cyrus got mad at him for some reason and cut off the Magians' Smurtus's ears." His daughter rightfully responded, "That is insanely dangerous for me to do. But I will do it because I'm a good daughter and blah, blah, blah." And when the next time came for her to sleep with Smurtus, she felt up for his ears and discovered that he had none. Surprise, surprise, we all saw that coming.

• 12:30Speaker 00

  The next morning, she sent a message to her father with the news. Otani's then got all his friends together, they had a little group meeting to talk about their group project, okay? Because they, Otani's bought his two friends, and then each of them, they each bought a friend, so there were six together. But then they heard about Darius. That name might ring a bell if anyone has read about Herodotus before. Darius, son of Hyssaspes, and he would be arriving soon. So they decided to rope him into it as well. Now they're seven. Sometimes I can do math. They met together to discuss what was to be done. Since they were all in agreement that this was not Smurtus, son of Cyrus, they just had to decide where and when they would do something.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Darius spoke up. "It's good to know that you all are aware that this is not the right Smurtus, son of Cyrus. I thought I was the only one, and so I was rushing over here wide way to deal with this. You must all listen to me, we have to act at once, with no delay." Otani's replies, "You are obviously from a fine stock, young man, that is clear. However, do not close yourself off to good advice from those around you, we need more people before we can do anything." Darius didn't like this one bit, it seemed, and he said, "If you guys listen to Otani's, you will all die terribly. We must act immediately, and if we don't, I'm gonna go to the Magians and tell them exactly what you're planning." Which is a bitch move, Darius, like, come on.

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Otani's talked this at once, and so he agreed with Darius. "If you want to continue on as you do, and we have no options, then please let us know exactly what your plans are." Darius had a response for this. "Oh, we'll have no problem with that. Guards are never much difficulty for men of our rank, they'll just cower and hide from us. Further, I can use a little lie to get us past the eunuchs to help us along our way. I shall tell them that I have a message for the king from my father, and they will surely let us in, for if the king hears differently, I'm sure they would get in much trouble." Gobrius, who was one of the original six and Otani's friends, said, "I think Darius's plan is the only one we really have. We must do this quickly, remember what Cambyses said upon his death?

• 14:44Speaker 00

  That Persia would be utterly screwed if we let a non-Persian rule the country? So we must immediately attack, of course." During all this time, the Magians were also in discussion with each other on how to keep their position. They decided the best thing to do was to get Praxaspes on their side, and they felt that he could do it for numerous reasons. To start, he had been treated pretty appallingly, to say the least, by Cambyses, what with the whole shooting his son with an arrow thing? Secondly, as he was the one who killed Smurtus, son of Cyrus, then he was the only man who was thoroughly certain that Smurtus, son of Cyrus, was actually dead.

• 15:25Speaker 00

  Finally, the Persians had great respect for Praxaspes, so that would help the Magians quite a bit if he was on their side. They decided to invite him over for a little meeting, a little meal, and in it they would make reciprocal deals. This worked, which shouldn't be surprising at all, because of course it would did. And they told him that they wanted him to climb to the top of a tower and announce to everyone that Smurtus was THE Smurtus, son of Cyrus, and the right person to be on the throne. So the Magians called all the Persians to an assembly, and Praxaspes climbed up the tower in order to give his little speech. He started by naming the line of kings, doing their whole genealogy, starting from the very beginning and making his way all the way to Cyrus.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  When he got there, he took a moment, a pause. I'm guessing, who knows, but next he told the truth. He told all the Persians about Cambyses's dream and what Praxaspes had been ordered to do. He told them about how he had come back and killed Smurtus, son of Cyrus, and then told them all of Cambyses's last moments. He let them know what Cambyses said when he died, that Persia would be fucked unless they took it back from the Magians. And then, after telling the whole truth and nothing more, to the gathered crowd, he promptly threw himself from the tower to his death. Back to Darius and Otani's and the other people, well, they were on their way to enact their plan when they heard about what had happened with Praxaspes. They stopped at once to deliberate.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Otani's saying that it wasn't the right time, and Darius saying that, yes, actually, all the chaos made this exactly the right time. They fought like this for a while until a sign went by, seven pairs of hawks chasing after two vultures bullying the shit out of them. They took this as a sign that they were doing the right thing, and it was best that they continued with their journey, so off they went. When they arrived at the palace, none of the guards gave them any trouble, they merely cowed at the men of standing and let them go by. Next, the seven came upon some eunuchs who were supposed to take messages to the kings. The eunuchs were unimpressed that the guards had let them in and were about to have them sent out again when the seven pulled out their swords and quickly dispatched them.

• 17:35Speaker 00

  They burst into the throne room, where the Magians were trying to figure out how to handle the whole Praxaspes situation, as it hadn't gone quite to plan. The brothers quickly grabbed their own weapons, one a spear and the other a bow, before rushing at their attackers. The one with the spear was doing well enough, fending them off, but the one with the bow was having incredible difficulty dealing with his attackers, as and you would be surprised by this, but bows don't do much good in close combat. Wild, I know. He ran off to lock himself in a room to, I don't know, not deal with the whole situation, but Darius and Gobrius went after him. And Darius got in the killing wound. They promptly cut off the heads of the Magians, and leaving their wounded within the citadel made their way out into the crowds.

• 18:17Speaker 00

  They rallied all the people together, brandishing their heads in the air, decrying their victory, and this day became, I guess, some sort of national holiday for the Persians moving forward? At least that's what Herodotus says. He says the festival is called "The Slaughter of the Magians", and no Magian is allowed to be seen in public on this day and have to stay inside for the whole entire day, which seems like a stretch to me, but also is not in any way surprising whatsoever. There was still a problem that had to be dealt with, that of who is going to rule Persia now? Will they go back to monarchy or try something new? Well, Otani stepped up first, hence suggests that they try rule by people, democracy. "Wow, didn't think I was going to run into democracy here, but here we go.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Look how good kings have done for us," he cries, "look at how power went to Cambyses's head, and the people were the ones who suffered for his madness." We wouldn't have gotten anywhere near this point if one person didn't have all the power at all. Which I mean, fair enough, actually, Cambyses was obviously a problem, and who doesn't like some good old democracy? As long as it's working, as it should be, and there's no corruption at all. But, you know, when has that ever happened? Next, Megabites suggests that power be given to the ruling elite, or oligarchy. Of course, we must not allow ourselves to fall into tyranny again, because that obviously didn't work well. But we cannot trust the people to take care of everything, because they're so simple.

• 19:45Speaker 00

  They fall into mobs, and there's absolutely no logic in that at all, so like, maybe we should just let those powerful enough with enough money, with enough resources, and who are definitely smart enough, lead the country together. Best of both worlds, Megabites thinks, I'm sure. It's too much, though, like, the trauma of these guys. Anyway, there's still one more option, and that's where Darius comes in.

• 20:21Liv Albert?

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• 22:14Speaker 01

  State fair food is getting smaller and pricier.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  We'll have room for fried cookies.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Okay, you'd never overspend on food. What's your deal?

• 22:22Speaker 03

  What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy 837 5G for free, and no activation fees.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  Free phone? Oh, sign me up.

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  Get that more for your money feeling. Only on Metro by T-Mobile.

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  Bring your number and activate $40 period plan. $450 based on device discount waived activation fee. Not available if with Metro or T-Mobile in the past 180 days.

• 22:44Speaker 00

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• 23:31Speaker 00

  So now Darius has a suggestion of how the government should govern moving forward. I bet you guys could guess what his suggestion will be. It's not surprising at all. We've had democracy, and then oligarchy. So last of all is monarchy, of course. Look, I know those aren't the only options. I've played Civ 6 like the rest of us, but this is antiquity, and these are the options we are given. Darius goes on to elaborate. Make up, I see, you are correct about the masses and their state of mind. Rude. But I think you underestimate the bullshittery that an oligarchy can get into. Yes, there are many who would stay true to their civil values and obligations, but slowly, people will make their own alliances, and soon enough,

• 24:13Speaker 00

  there are simply forces against forces until one person comes out on top of it all again. Thus, we end up at monarchy in the end. The same is true in democracy. As long as it's going perfectly and everyone is well-intentioned, it works out well. But as soon as one troublemaker enters the mix is when we get problems that eventually grow and grow until we are back at civil strife. There's a folk hero, and you know what? It ends with one man ruling in the end. It seems that monarchy, one ruling all, is the natural way to go about things, and why fight something that works? At the end of it all, it's better to find the right person for the job, who knows how to make it all work perfectly, and just let him rule. Besides, it's only one man who won our freedom for us, so we should just keep with the status quo and keep a king.

• 24:58Speaker 00

  These were the three points that it all came down to. And the last four of the conspirators were charged with deciding which one would win, and of course, it was monarchy that won. Otani then speaks up, knowing that he lost and just wanting everyone to be equal, I guess, says, "However we decide on who shall be king, I don't care. I merely take myself out of the running. I neither want to be king nor to be ruled, so I ask one thing. That my house be allowed to exist as we please, and to not be subject to any who has decided to be king." In doing this, his house, even to Herodotus's current time, is the only elite household to hold freedom from the Persian king, though they break no laws and honestly follow his orders only as much as they desire.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  The rest of the men also decide that Otani's household should be given special privileges every year of the most wonderful treasures, not described, except, you know, median robes, great. The rest decided that the rest of them, they would always be allowed in the royal palaces, no matter what, and that the king could never marry anyone outside of their families. And at the only time they couldn't just wander on into the royal palaces is when the king was laying with his wife, which is, I don't know, they're just gonna put a sock on the door, I guess. They then decided the best way to decide who would be the king would be for them to all go get on the horses, ride out into the outskirts of the city, and whosoever's horse neighs first at sunrise

• 26:23Speaker 00

  is to be named the next king, which seems like a completely reasonable way to elect a king. But what do I know? Anyways, Darius had to win. And he's going to make sure that such a thing happened, which is fascinating. And doesn't it anyway sound like corruption at all? Whatever. He found his groom, Obaris, who is apparently a very, very clever man, and told him exactly what was going to happen, that he needed to find the trickiest way for his horse to neigh first. Obaris agreed with his master and came up with a plan. He took a mare out into the city limits and tethered her to the spot where the six would ride out the next day. Next, he brought Darius's horse to the spot where the mare was and

• 27:06Speaker 00

  let the horse walk around her a couple times, getting, you know, a really good smell of her, and even bumping into her a little here and there, horse flirting, I guess. He went crazy for a horse, and then Darius released the horse and allowed him to mount the mare. The next day, the six went out to the city limits, and when they arrived, Darius's horse made a great whinny and ran off to the very same spot the mare was the night before, remembering the secret tryst he had. At the same time, a great strike of lightning flashed across the sky, and a large clap of thunder was heard from the very clearest of morning snows, sight of cloud. Wow, I know English. No cloud in sight. A sure sign that Darius was the one meant to be king.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  The other five immediately dismounted their horses and prostrated themselves on the ground. Herodotus then goes on, as he likes to do, to tell us that the Persians have another version of events, where instead of bringing the mare out, he merely rubbed his hand all up in her business, and then put his hand under Darius's horse's nose when they were all outside, and then the horse made some sort of snorting horse, and Darius won the throne. Regardless, Darius is now the king of Persia. He started out with some marriages, because why not? Get married. First, he married the two daughters of Cyrus. That was being Atossa, who we talked about before, and Artistone. There's some disturbing things in there

• 28:31Speaker 00

  where they really focus on Artistone's virginity, which is great, and point out that Atossa has been married twice before, and I'm just like, hey, must we? Then he married the daughter of Smyrdis, son of Cyrus. Her name was Parmes. And finally, he married Otani's daughter, Phaidme, the one who, you know, figured out that the Smyrdis, who they thought was Smyrdis, son of Cyrus, was not actually Smyrdis, son of Cyrus, but was actually Smyrdis, not son of Cyrus. I don't actually need to be saying this anymore. Why do I keep doing it? After all this marriage business was over, he then decided that the next most important thing to do

• 29:11Speaker 00

  was to have a statue commissioned with the relief of a man on horseback in stone with the inscription, and I quote, "Darius, the son of Heistaspys, thanks to the excellence of his horse," here, the name of the horse was inserted, "and of Obaris, his groom, who secured the kingdom of Persia." I'm actually kinda pissed that we don't get to know the horse's name from Herodotus's account. I mean, let's be honest, the horse is why he got the job. Plus, I love a good ancient horse name. Bucephalus, anyone? Bucephopolis? Love a good horse name, whatever. Also, isn't it wild? Like, seriously, he thought monarchy was the best way because it could avoid the most corruption, but then he got the job through corruption?

• 29:57Speaker 00

  Think about that. This is really interesting, but also what's really interesting is the structure of that, how Herodotus, you know, is emphasizing this in, in, in Darius's speech about why monarchy is the best because it has least corruption. Then it's like, look, he can use corruption. Herodotus is doing something there. He is telling us something. Okay, well, move on. Next, he decided to order the Persian Empire into provinces. Satrapies is the word for Persian province. Have I told you that before? If I haven't, well, now you know, it ain't that fun. Yep. There were twenty satrapies, all with their own governors, or satraps, that's what they're called, satraps, and fixed tributes, which

• 30:39Speaker 00

  wasn't done before, apparently. Herodotus then goes on to give us all the details of these tributes, and I simply cannot tell you about it all, because I do not have the patience nor care. But it's book three, eighty-nine to ninety-five. If you do want to read it yourself, feel free. It's truly just numbers upon numbers upon numbers. I don't care for it. But if you care for it, Godspeed. Love you for that. Truly, like, these chapters are economic historians' dreams, and I'm so happy for them to do the work for me. I don't have to, because I don't understand math on the best of days. But

• 31:21Speaker 00

  hey, Herodotus tells us that because of these fixed tributes, and how they had to be paid, and in what currency, basically, he made it set that it couldn't just be gifts, it had to be currency. Cool. Darius got the nickname of the shopkeeper. Kenbisi's nickname was the despot, which, like, is accurate. Um, while Cyrus was the father, the papa. It's a little cute, but I don't know. That's what they wanted him to remember by, that he cared about the Persian people. Anyways, Herodotus goes through each province and tallies all the tributes up, including the gold dust that the empire got from India. Oh, we'll get there. And concluded that the annual amount of tribute was fourteen thousand five

• 32:04Speaker 00

  hundred and sixty talents of mostly silver. Yes, some gold from the gold desk, but mostly silver. Um, which is like, I, I didn't know how much it was, other than I was like, that's a fuck ton. That's what I know it is. It's a lot. Um, so I did Google it, and I'm sorry, but once again, I'm not good at this. But we are talking about in the range of about four hundred million dollars today. That was his yearly tribute from the provinces, from the satrapies. Um, the people of Persia, though, Persians proper, um, they weren't required to do any sort of tribute. And in fact, they were exempt from taxes altogether,

• 32:44Speaker 00

  which sounds great. Can we do that? I would love, like, this is my thing. It's, it's, it's the curse of being an indigenous woman, and people are like, you don't pay taxes. And I'm like, God, I wish, I wish I didn't have to pay taxes. I wish I didn't have to pay for school. But you know what? I do. I do. It's fine. God, I wish I had that life. I can't, honestly, I'm always talking to my mother about how I'm so excited for death because I don't have to pay taxes anymore. That's it. Anyways, Herodotus then goes on to tell us about the various peoples who also gave money and gifts to the Persian Empire, who, just because they were nearby, which included the Ethiopians, the Colchians,

• 33:26Speaker 00

  and the Rabians, among others. Um, many things were sent from them to the Persians, which included precious stones and also people. Isn't it great when people are used as movable objects? I say with so much sarcasm, please hear the sarcasm. Whatever. Let's talk about the gold dust again, because at this point, we are not talking about an entirely different group of people, that being the Indians, which is where the narrative turns incredibly disturbing in my mindset. Um, now, one thing we do have to remember, while Herodotus is his sourcing, he doesn't see everything he talks about. Um, often, he is getting his information secondhand through people. And if you spend any time in Greek history, you

• 34:07Speaker 00

  might get the idea that they aren't great at describing those who live around them in kind ways. Um, and in fact, they often exaggerate things quite heavily. And I, I think this is actually just like a pretty normal human thing. Um, once again, I'm only a Greco-Roman historian, and I can only speak from that experience, but, you know, I, we do that. It's the us versus them thing, whatever. So this is gonna happen now. So just be ready for a whole bunch of bullshit. Um, and I also wanted to emphasize about the word Indian. Um, the word Indian is a hard one to follow etymologically. It's, um,

• 34:50Speaker 00

  I mean, it's not terribly hard, but it's, it's a complicated word, especially today. And I do think even then, that we don't give it credit for. So I do think we have to pay attention to this for a moment. The word Indian itself comes from Greek. India meant the region of the Indus River. Uh, the Indus River itself was just called the Indos, Indos, um, in Greek, and that's where it started. Um, and then it got pushed to include paces past the Indus River as well. Um, in old Persian, it was called Hindu, which was the name for the province of Sind, which is now in southeastern Pakistan. And it ultimately came from the Sanskrit Sindhu, meaning river. Sorry for my pronunciation to anyone. I'm,

• 35:37Speaker 00

  me. Anyways, Indian by itself is complicated, because, I mean, one could say, and many have said, that the word itself doesn't have any pejorative value until recently. Um, I say read Herodotus book three, and tell me that there isn't some bullshit going on. Um, because, I mean, the word itself is, is, is a heavily English word to describe a specific region, a region that has been often trod upon and treated like shit and abused for centuries. Um, and, oh, give me getting so uncomfortable. It, and it's not, and it's, it's an English word. It's not the word for the, for the country itself,

• 36:21Speaker 00

  the people who lived there, you know? It, yes, in English, they could refer to themselves as Indian, but I was just doing some light, looking around and see, like, the country could, and once again, I'm sorry for my pronunciation, but the country is, like, called Baharata, Baharata. Um, there's also, uh, Ayyavarta. Um, and then also, like, I've always heard people from India call themselves Desi. That's what I'm most familiar with. I'm sure there's more, and I'm sure there's other ways of describing themselves without using that word Indian. And I find it a difficult term to contend with itself, because, well, you guys know I'm First Nations, and there is, there was a history of that

• 37:03Speaker 00

  word being used in a way that is exceptionally pejorative to my people, um, in a way that is very much so lightened today, and treated almost like it's not a big deal, because of things like the Indian Act, because of things where a lot of government things still use the word. And it, it's difficult, because I don't want to cast a net and speak entirely for my people. I can only speak for myself, um, and my own experience with my family. Because, you know, we've always called ourselves that word. Um, but we've never been okay

• 37:46Speaker 00

  with others calling us that word, ever. It's never been okay. Um, because we just, we aren't, you know? I, like, all my friends either call me indigenous, or they actually call me by my, my tribe name, like, by my people's name, which is Odawa. Like, it's not, or they call me the Nishbish, because I'm Nishanabe. Anyways, but like, it's complicated. And, and I say this as someone who has had that word thrown at me in a pejorative value my whole life, um, from when I was a child to literally just as recently as a little, for two weeks ago. Um, I understand it's just a word, but let's not deny its history,

• 38:28Speaker 00

  and let's not deny this moment in the text, because it's quite much. It's too much. Anyways, back to the Herodotean bullshit. He goes on to tell us about a certain Indian tribe called the Paidei, who are nomadic and eat raw meat. And they also kill their sick, because apparently they're a waste of resources. And then when they're sick or killed, they then eat them. Because cannibalism, of course. However, there's also another group who refused to do kill any sort of living creatures and will only live off of plants. And when their time comes to die, they merely just go lay in a field and, and, you know, die. He then goes on to tell us that while there are various Indian tribes that all have their differences,

• 39:13Speaker 00

  they all fuck in public, just as livestock do. Which, if you try to tell me is not pejorative towards another group of people, you're lying. Like, that's just, that's bullshit. He also goes to say that they're black, you know? And he said that their semen isn't white like that of other men, which had air quotes around it, but is also as black as their skin. Great. Thanks, Herodotus. That's not true.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  But these people live so far away from the Persians. They were all way, all way, they lived where the south winds originate from. They were so far away and thus they were never actually subjects of the Persians themselves. He then goes on to tell us a little bit about a particular tribe of Indians who are the ones who get the gold dust. They live near the desert that is uninhabitable. And in these sands live ants. I hope you guys have heard of this story because it's a fun one. Live ants that act just like one would expect ants to act, but they are in a size somewhere between a fox and a dog. So, big boy ants. These ants, when they dig their burrows, drink up sands that have flecks of gold amongst them. So, the Indians then, they go into the desert looking for these sands and they use camels to do this.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  They have two male camels and one female, which they ride in between the males. The males are in charge of plowing the sand to turn it up and get the gold to the surface. Oh, and also the female camel has to be one who recently gave birth. That's very, very important, apparently. They go out when the sun is at its fiercest because the ants don't like being out and about when the sun is blazing. Mood. Neither do I. Once they get to their destination with the camels, they then fill up sacks with sand and make for home as fast as possible. The reason for this is that the ants will pick up their scent and chase after them, which is very dangerous, apparently. But also, I wouldn't want a moderately large ant chasing after me. That sounds like a nightmare. This is where the female camel who recently gave birth comes into the

• 41:07Speaker 00

  picture. See, the females are already naturally faster than the males and they are especially fast because they want to get back home to their babies. It's that recent. So the females are the ones you want to be on because if the male camels start to slow down, they get cut loose to whatever ant doom lays behind them. That's how they get the most of their gold. Oh, but also, Herodotus just wants to tell us this real fast right at the end. They also have mines. They do get their gold from mines as well, but you know, the desert story is much more fun.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  That's where I'm gonna leave it for this week. Um, there's more, of course, one, one more episode worth of content, but we'll get to that next week. I always love when Herodotus does his wild Herodotus thing where he just rambles and rambles about some sort of nonsense that certainly cannot be true. Remember his description of hippos? I still can't believe that because it is simply wild. Like, no, Herodotus, they do not have manes and they do not neigh. You have not seen a hippo before and that's a-okay. But that's the kind of information that we get from Herodotus. Some of it seems credible and other parts of it just seem like absolute batshit insanity. And we just have to go with it in the end of the day because that's what we have. So I will see you guys next week and I hope you turn in because I have news as

• 42:32Speaker 00

  well. See you then. Let's talk about Miss Baby is written and produced by Liv Albert. Michaela Panglish is here too. Select music by Lou Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective Podcast Network, a collection of creators that all strive to bring you accurate and reliable information on the ancient world. These include The Wonderful Friends at Movies We Dig, The Partial Historians, Sweet Bitter, and so much more. Get ad-free episodes and other fun things by subscription to the Oracle Edition on Patreon, patreon.com/missbaby, or via the link in the episode description. Bye.

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