285. Overcoming relationship OCD & anxiety

Even in the most perfect of relationships we can have doubts; even when everything is happy and wonderful, questions can still linger in the back of our mind like 'is this person really right for me, should we break up, should I be feeling this way?' This feeling is a symptom of relationship anxiety or relationship OCD and it can be debilitating. In today's episode we are joined by the incredible and wise Rebecca Ore to discuss: What is relationship OCD and why does it occur How it differs from typical OCD Anxious attachment & relationship OCD Which doubts to listen to and which to ignore How to manage relationship guilt and regret How to confront an anxious relationship thought + so much more You can find Rebecca here: @rebeccaorecoaching PREORDER MY BOOK: https://www.psychologyofyour20s.com/general-clean https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/755841/person-in-progress-by-jemma-sbeg/ Follow Jemma on Instagram: @jemmasbeg https://www.instagram.com/jemmasbeg/?hl=en# Follow the podcast on Instagram: @thatpsychologypodcast https://www.instagram.com/thatpsychologypodcast/?hl=en# For business: [email protected] mailto:[email protected] The Psychology of your 20s is not a substitute for professional mental health help. If you are struggling, distressed or require personalised advice, please reach out to your doctor or a licensed psychologist. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Jemma Sbeg?

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• 2:36Jemma Sbeg?

  I've got a question. Have you ever had that feeling of meeting someone amazing? Feeling like this relationship, you know, it could really go somewhere or it's already going somewhere. You're happy, you're fulfilled, your friends and your family, they love this person. And then out of nowhere, this kind of small feeling starts to creep in. It's this feeling of is this person really the one? Is this part of our relationship normal? Should I be having these doubts? Is this a sign we shouldn't be together? It can definitely send you spiraling in confusion. And facing all of these annoying questions leaves you doubting whether it is your anxiety or your intuition about this relationship.

• 3:21Jemma Sbeg?

  And this, my lovely listeners, is something that we call relationship anxiety or relationship OCD. And for those of us in our twenties, when you know, we're kind of experiencing our first really long-term important relationships, it can be a real pain and it can really ruin otherwise perfect and magical situations and magical experiences. And it can also leave us in a real negative thought spiral. So today, we are going to break down exactly why this occurs. Why we have been taught all these false notions of what a perfect relationship should look like and when you should be doubting your doubts rather than accepting them at face value.

• 4:02Jemma Sbeg?

  We also have the privilege to be joined by an incredible relationship coach, Rebecca Orr, who specializes in helping people find relationships that feel confident and secure. She is perfect for this episode. Welcome Rebecca.

• 4:17Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

• 4:20Jemma Sbeg?

  I'm so excited and you are hearing a little UK accent, everyone. We had to, we had to arrange this from across the oceans and oh my gosh, the UK to Australian time zone is, is a violent change. Like there is no time that works.

• 4:37Speaker 03

  I have some Australian clients and it's, it's crazy.

• 4:40Jemma Sbeg?

  She's used to it then, but I'm honestly.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  I'm used to it.

• 4:43Jemma Sbeg?

  You're used to it. When I like heard what you have to say about relationship OCD, I was like, everyone in their twenties needs to hear this advice. So before we get into that advice, can you quickly introduce yourself to the listeners of the psychology of your twenties?

• 4:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. So as said, I am Rebecca and I'm a relationship coach that specializes in helping people with anxieties and insecurities in their relationship. So what I do is help people kind of take back control of their brains, create relationships that feel secure and confident. And really it's a lot about their relationship with themselves. Being able to trust themselves, being able to manage their own minds, kind of challenge those fearful thoughts that their brain is constantly offering to them. And yeah, and really just feel back in control. And the reason I got into doing this was because I spent the majority of my teenage years and my twenties

• 5:38Speaker 03

  just feeling absolutely terrified in relationships, just so, so scared all of the time. And this is why the work I do is so, so important to me because basically I went through my, my own kind of journey with this work with seeking out, you know, expert help and listening to podcasts and going to therapy and, and reading all the books and, and all these things. And, and yeah, I finally found kind of a set of tools, a set of concepts, a structure that really helped me to, to get out of this kind of spiral. And yeah, that's made me realise that I need to help other people do this. So it, it's work that I'm really, really passionate about. And when I say I can relate to everyone I coach, it's, it's literally like coaching a past version of me in every session.

• 6:23Jemma Sbeg?

  You know, you are the kind of, like, the kind of guest that I love having on the show when it's someone who is not only an expert but has lived experience with the things we're talking about. Um, not to like hate on anyone who's trying to help people, but I just find that you can only get so deep if you haven't been through it yourself.

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:43Jemma Sbeg?

  You can only really understand the extreme anxiety that comes with relationship OCD if you've experienced it yourself. Um, we have to talk about this topic though, because some people may not be familiar with relationship OCD. Can you give me a brief description of what it is and maybe what it feels like? Also, something I need to bring up, it has OCD in the name, of course. But I think people, if you're thinking about the typical kind of OCD that we might talk about, it is quite different to what I'm assuming most people are imagining. So I'm sure you will confirm, deny all of those thoughts or explain them further. But yes, give us the basics of relationship OCD.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Our OCD, relationship OCD, is where people have obsessive compulsive thinking in their intimate relationships. So it's going to feel like intrusive thoughts of doubt and anxiety surrounding relationships. And of course doubt in, in any relationship is, is normal, of course it is. But people with R O C D find that the level of doubt, um, that the level of doubt and anxiety is uncontrollable. And it feels really intrusive and it feels really distressing. And what that can look like is constantly debating if the relationship is right. It looks like a lot of ruminating. It looks like a lot of monitoring and checking how they feel.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  So do I feel in love now? Like, oh no, I just felt bored. What does that mean? Am I, am I attracted to them enough? It's a lot of kind of monitoring how they feel. Um, there's a lot of comparing, so comparing your relationship to other people's relationships, what you see on TV, or on films, social media. There can be a lot of kind of trying to control your partner, um trying to kind of nitpick. You know, we don't want them to be imperfect. We want them to do everything just right so that we don't have to feel any negative emotion or doubt. Um. If we can make them do it just right, then we don't have to feel negative emotion, which we will end up spiralling on and thinking that means something terrible. So

• 8:49Speaker 03

  it can, it can mean that people can be a little bit, not, not in a malicious way, but that they, they kind of wanna try and control and micromanage their partner a little bit. Um. There can be a lot of ruminating about missing out, you know, am I missing out on someone better? Being afraid to commit to someone just in case it doesn't work out. Um. And, and even to go as far as people might avoid committing to relationships at all because they're so afraid to experience this doubt and anxiety. So, yeah, it can, it can be a really hard thing to experience. And for me, although I coach a lot of people with R O C D, um, what I really experienced myself was more kind of, kind of, I feel like there's two kinds of fears. There's like

• 9:30Speaker 03

  the fear of being left and then there's the fear of like, I'm not in the right relationship and, and you know, this relationship is gonna, and I might leave that. For me, I was much more afraid people were gonna leave me, but I think the, the fears are so closely linked. Um. And I coach so many people with these intrusive doubts in their relationship. And, and yeah, those were kind of the most common things that we see time and time again. So I'm sure some of your listeners can totally relate to at least one or two of those things.

• 9:57Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, yeah. And you know what? Especially in our twenties, when we're like, I just wanna have this great big love. And I'm so young and this is the time when I meant to be meeting people and dating and exploring if I'm gonna sink my time into this relationship. It better be the right person and I better be a hundred percent sure. And I'm gonna say this, like, I'm in such an amazing relationship, I'm not a hundred percent sure. I'm like, think I'm ninety nine point nine percent there. But you are always going to have doubts and I actually think that's important because it causes you to continue to examine your relationship and to continue to consciously say, I do wanna be here.

• 10:40Jemma Sbeg?

  You know what I mean? I think if you've never thought about your relationship at all, it becomes this passive thing, but we wanna find the balance, right? I'm also assuming from what you've described that a lot of people do find that they end up self sabotaging relationships. That a relation, like their relationship patterns.

• 10:59Jemma Sbeg?

  Maybe quite self-destructive, that they have a lot of regret around leaving past relationships, missing that person, being unable to move on. Do you find that some of your clients will come to you and say, there was this relationship I had and in hindsight it was perfect.

• 11:17Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 11:17Jemma Sbeg?

  And I can't get them back. What am I gonna do now? Like, is that something that happens?

• 11:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have coached people that have been in that situation where as we start to unpack their patterns, they realise, oh wait, it wasn't them, that it wasn't the relationship that was the problem, it was my brain. And that can be a moment where people start to feel loads of regret and kind of almost shame around that. But I think it kind of plays into a little bit of what the kind of underlying thinking error is, which there can almost be this scarcity around it, like there's this one right person for me. And I know we're gonna come on to talking about the one, the idea of the one as well, but we almost have this idea that there's this one person for me and they're predetermined. They're like a needle in a haystack that I need to go find. And therefore, if I've missed them, then I've missed them, but they've gone.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  And I think a big part of snapping out of this R O C D kind of mentality is there isn't one right person. There are just billions of imperfect humans on the planet that you could create amazing relationships with. If it didn't happen with that person in the past because your brain wasn't ready for it, you weren't in the place to have that, or they weren't, or maybe now you are, but they aren't, maybe they're now dating someone else. That doesn't mean you've missed, but your one great chance for love. It means that, okay, that person, it wasn't the right time with that person. And there are other amazing people that you can create a great relationship with. So I think for me, it's always coaching them through that scarcity mindset of like,

• 12:49Speaker 03

  that it's like that kind of, there's this one slice of pizza left in the box, or like there's this one part left on the shelf, like, and I've missed out. No, there are always more amazing partners that we can connect with. The world is, the world is not short of people. And there are billions of amazing, imperfect, flawed humans that we get to love. And so, yeah, I think that's the way I would coach someone around that is really looking at scarcity mentality.

• 13:14Jemma Sbeg?

  The scarcity mentality in dating right now, as I'm sure many of my twenty something single people can attest, is wild. Like, it's absolutely wild. It just, I saw this um like TikTok the other day and it's like if you met your partner on Hinge, you got like the last chopper out of Nam, like out of Vietnam, like you got the last lifeboat off the Titanic, like it's terrible.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  That's hilarious.

• 13:38Jemma Sbeg?

  I know. And I was like, gosh, no wonder people feel like they need to like, no wonder people feel like they can't leave bad relationships, but also this sense of doubt around choosing the wrong person, because if you've chosen the wrong person, eventually you'll be single again and it just seems all so terrible and bleak, which it isn't, but I'm jumping the gun. Because I want to ask you this one question. I just want to get some of our basics down pat. Are there certain people who are more prone to R O C D, Relationship OCD, than others?

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I think there's so many things that can impact these kinds of thought patterns. And one is childhood experiences, you know. If you grew up in a family where maybe you saw a lot of kind of problematic behaviour in a romantic relationship, you know, your mum and dad maybe. Um, or maybe they went for a really painful divorce and that was really hard to witness. You know, our brains are always absorbing beliefs and we can absorb these beliefs from childhood that relationships are scary and dangerous, or relationships aren't safe, relationships will end, relationships are scary. And so childhood experiences is a huge one. Um, social conditioning, which I know we've said as well, like all these messages we receive about,

• 14:54Speaker 03

  you know, how relationships should look, the Disney movies we watched, you know, the rom coms we've seen. All this kind of social conditioning can really impact the the way we think about it. Um, but I I think some people do just have more anxious tendencies than others due to their genes, their DNA, and and it can be hard to pinpoint. And I think my advice for for clients is to to worry less about why is my brain like this? And focus more on how can I show up with compassion and care to work with what I've got? You know, if my brain has absorbed this from somewhere, who knows where, it could have been childhood, it could have been a Disney movie I watched when I was five and my brain just really latched on to it, like, who knows, let's just meet you where you are and and learn to guide ourselves through it.

• 15:38Jemma Sbeg?

  Oh, do you know how refreshing that take is? I love to examine the why, but I think that it's like, it's the why and the now. And you need to be able to distinguish them because the past, your genetics, your personality, none of it is like, none of it is, I don't wanna say incorrectible. None of it is.

• 16:00Speaker 03

  It's right, none of it's set in stone. Yeah, like, we can end up trapped in the story where we're like, well, because my dad cheated on my mom five times, like now I'm really bad at relationships. And the, and that's not me mocking anyone that that says those kinds of things. I totally understand it. I've been there myself, but um, we can end up trapped in that story where we identify as I'm a person that's bad at relationships. Or I'm a person that can't commit because of this thing. And when we tell our brains that, our brains are just like, okay, we don't commit. That's, that's who we are. And there's no way out of that. So, yeah, I think just being able to recognize what might have contributed with compassion. And then, okay, now what, what are we doing from here?

• 16:41Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm, I, this is something I talk about a lot, also just in my personal life with my friends. What is the story that you're telling yourself that is making your life less amazing than it could be? Because each of us is telling ourselves a story. Maybe it's not about relationship OCD, just think about it in general, that we're telling ourselves a story around how we're incapable. We're telling ourselves a story around how we don't deserve certain things, about what people think about us, about the fact that our relationships are always going to fail. I, again, I'm gonna bring in a pop culture reference here, which I don't do that often, but there is so much pop culture references to relationship OCD. When you look for them, it's the song, The Prophecy by Taylor Swift.

• 17:26Jemma Sbeg?

  Have you heard this song?

• 17:27Speaker 03

  Yes, I've heard that song.

• 17:29Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, I'm guessing she has. And it's the sense of like, I don't know if you've listened to the song, if you haven't, it's such a beautiful song. And it's basically like her talking about how she's deemed to always have her relationships fail. And anyone who is anxiously attached, anyone who struggles with relationship anxiety, anyone who has just been, you know, unfortunate enough to have had too many relationships end and end up be lessons, will relate to that song of feeling like it's a prophecy, this is set in set in stone. And it most certainly is not. And we've talked about the story that we might tell ourselves. What about the story that society tells us? What what are we told

• 18:10Jemma Sbeg?

  relationships should look like? And why do you find that sometimes unhealthy?

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Wow, I could talk for hours about this, but I'll try and streamline it a little bit for the sake of not sending everyone to sleep. But yeah, we have absorbed so many messages from society, from, you know, even, you know, the the parents, the caregivers, teachers, everyone that we've come into contact with, our brains are always listening, especially as children, we're always absorbing messages. And, you know, we're kind of sold the idea of romantic relationships saving us, you know, especially as women. And then this is one thing I want to say as well, is that I think a lot of women, in particular, suffer with R O C D because they've kind of been taught that their romantic relationship is a reflection of their worth and value. I mean, and if we think about historically,

• 18:58Speaker 03

  you know, at one point, a woman's romantic relationship was literally her lifeline. She didn't have a bank account, she didn't have a job, she didn't have a place to live on her own, she couldn't buy property. A romantic partner was was her lifeline. So although we're not living in that, thankfully, anymore, um, you know, it's still trickled down where women really believe that their romantic partner is a reflection of their worth and value. If they don't have a romantic partner, it's because they aren't worthy and valuable in some way. And if they do, that person is like this mirror of whether they are worthy and valuable. And so, yeah, we put a lot of pressure on our romantic relationships and

• 19:38Speaker 03

  We often kind of think of them as coming along to save us. You know, if we're single, we think, oh, I'm gonna get this person come along. And they are going to be this amazing person that's gonna come along and complete me. They're gonna be the other half of me. They're gonna be my soulmate, my one and only. And then my life will be happily ever after. And if we think of the Disney films that we've watched, think of rom coms, you know, we always see them running off into the sunset together. We don't see the after part of the happily ever after. You know, we don't see the part where Cinderella's sat around feeling a bit bored and frustrated. Um, because the prince has been late home every night that week. Or, you know, we don't see them maybe start scrolling on their phones, not having much to say to each other.

• 20:18Speaker 03

  Or the fact that they've maybe not had sex for a few weeks because, you know, they've been really tired. We don't see the realities of relationships. Really played out to us, even on social media, you know, and, and this is just, you know, it's not kind of social media's fault. It's just the way that, that it is. But we don't. Post our lows, we only post the highs. We post the engagement photos. We post those gushy Valentine's posts when we're all dressed up. Of course, we're not gonna post the mundane moments where we're just sat like, oh, look at me, like, sat with my partner, having nothing to say. We're not gonna post that. And the brain then subconsciously believes that those things don't exist. The boring, the mundane, the negative just doesn't exist.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  So then when we experience it, we think, what has gone wrong? There must be something wrong. If I'm, yeah, I must not be normal. If I'm feel like, look at everyone else is so happy, so connected. Out doing cute things, having a great time all the time. And I'm sat here feeling bored and, you know, maybe we, we're not doing anything this weekend. Something must be wrong. And so, yeah, one of the expectations we have is for our relationships to be happy and blissful all of the time. Um, and we think our partners are supposed to fulfill every single need that we have. And this is one of the things that. I was saying about kind of people monitoring their emotions because they've kind of believed that. Relationships, and I was actually coaching someone last night who, who said the same thing that, well, relationships are supposed to be happy, right?

• 21:44Speaker 03

  And we were like, I said, well, yeah, you know, happiness is one emotion you're feeling your relationship. But what if you're supposed to also feel other emotions? And it was like, it was kind of like a lightbulb moment for her where she was like, oh, she thought that happy was the one emotion she was supposed to feel. Um, sorry, I realize I'm I'm talking a lot now. I get excited about this.

• 22:03Jemma Sbeg?

  I love it, please.

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Um, but yeah, so we end up, if we do feel a negative emotion, like annoyed, irritated, frustrated with our partners. We start to panic and think, oh, I shouldn't be feeling that, you know, why am I feeling this way? This isn't normal. Um, I think we're just so scared of doing it wrong that we we become hyper vigilant. Um, you know, we start comparing, are we having sex enough compared to other couples? Are we going on enough date nights compared to other couples? As if there is just this one set normal. And we just wanna know that that exists so that we can then rest assured that we are doing it right. Um, so yeah, there's a whole lot of expectations to challenge.

• 22:43Speaker 03

  And I think that is one of the biggest things that we have to do with our OCD is really looking, looking at what is my unchecked story of how relationships should be? What is the reality? And, you know, and a question I like to ask people is, if you knew that that was just totally normal, would it be a problem? And for most of them are like, oh, no, if I knew that it was normal to sometimes go a few weeks without having sex, like, I don't know, it wouldn't be a big deal to me at all. Like, people almost need permission for it to be normal, like, it's okay.

• 23:14Jemma Sbeg?

  It sounds like, I think it's because relationships are so nuanced and complex and complicated and something, they're scary. Like, being in love is scary. We look to be validated by what other people are doing. Because that provides us with some sense of confidence that we're doing it right. It's like cheating off the test of someone next to you, thinking that they know what they're doing and they don't actually. And when you were talking about that client, that, you know, I have to feel happy in a relationship. And you saying, well, what if your relationship is meant to teach you other things?

• 23:52Jemma Sbeg?

  You know, as humans, there was a study I read recently that we have access to thirty four thousand different kinds of emotions, distinct, different emotional states. How boring would it be if your relationship only fulfilled one? That means you would have thirty three thousand nine hundred and ninety nine other emotions. Maybe nine hundred ninety eight, if we also include love, that you would have to find elsewhere.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:19Jemma Sbeg?

  That doesn't sound particularly enjoyable.

• 24:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I love that you said that as well, because one of the concepts I teach is called the fifty fifty. And it's this idea that life is supposed to be about the fifty fifty, the fifty fifty of positive and negative emotion. And no matter where you are, no matter where you live, no matter what job you do, your brain is going to create the fifty fifty. And I always think of like, you know, when you think of people that are rich and famous and have it all, that my brain goes to like the Kardashians. You only have to watch an episode of the Kardashians to see that they are living the fifty fifty. They have a lot of positive emotion, but boy, do they have negative emotion too. And they have money, they have cars, they have, you know, glamour, they have the big house. Their brain is still creating the fifty fifty.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  They're gonna feel bored, they're gonna feel frustrated, they're gonna feel irritated, they're gonna feel disconnected sometimes. And it's really this reminder that it doesn't matter where you are, what you're doing. You know, on my honeymoon in December, me and my wife were sat on the beach one day and we were both just in a terrible mood. And we both looked at each other, we were like, this really proves the idea of the fifty fifty, because we're literally on our honeymoon on a beach. And we're both really irritated, yeah, in love, and we're both really irritated and we were like waiting for the boat to pick us up and we were like, we were just in like a bad mood. And it's just this idea of no matter which partner you have, no matter who you pick, your brain is going to create the negative fifty. Which includes boredom, frustration, anxiety, irritation, all the things you said, like it's gonna give you the whole spectrum.

• 25:48Speaker 03

  And I think when we can know that, we can, we can worry less about, okay, which right partner is going to give me the exit ramp off that human experience, which right partner is going to come along and save me from that negative fifty? And just which human do I want to enjoy loving while knowing my brain's gonna create all of the emotions no matter what?

• 26:09Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah, oh my god, I love the way you put that, I absolutely love it. We're gonna take a short break here, let us have a little break for water, a little tea break, a thinking break, but we will return very, very shortly.

• 26:27Jemma Sbeg?

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• 29:34Jemma Sbeg?

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• 29:51Jemma Sbeg?

  Okay, we are back with the wonderful, brilliant Rebecca Orr to talk about relationship OCD. So, something I know people are thinking is, if my brain is going to create the 50 50 with anyone, when do I know what doubts to listen to and which ones to ignore? Because there are people who are just strictly not right for us. So do you have any tricks for telling the difference between an anxious thought and an actual doubt?

• 30:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, so there's a process that I would encourage people to try. And it basically starts with self-soothing. Because in the moment where you feel triggered, as in anxious, you feel that kind of urgency. What we've got to remember is that your brain is seeing whatever the situation is as dangerous. Your brain thinks that this relationship ending is is dangerous in some way. Um. Or, you know, this partner not being right for you is dangerous. It's going to mean something bad. So it's sounding the alarm. And you can think of it like maybe an an overprotective guard dog, or a faulty smoke alarm. I sometimes use that analogy. So your brain is sounding the alarm as if, you know, there's a lion about to attack you when really, okay, your

• 31:11Speaker 03

  partner just might not be a good match for you. You're not going to die. Um. But so we've got to start with just kind of grounding ourselves, because when we're in that place of heightened anxiety or fear, the rational part of our brain is not online. And the prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain that is in charge of logical rational thinking, is completely offline, and it's the primitive brain doing all the talking. So in these moments, if you're feeling really triggered, you know, you're having a lot of doubts, just start by, first of all, observing the experience. So I like to do this by just shifting to the observer of my thoughts. So, okay, my brain is telling me this thought. Or, okay, I'm noticing my partner, um, you know, said this, and my brain's making it mean this.

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Okay, I'm just noticing my brain is telling me this. So you know, it's kind of like you're shifting to observing the story. Then, we've got to sit and ground ourselves back in our body. We've got to calm the body down. Again, and we're signaling to the primitive brain, it's okay, brain, we're safe. There's no lion, there's no tiger. We're actually safe. So there's a whole process I teach on kind of grounding in the body. Um. But it really involves being willing to sit and feel the emotions, feel the sensations of that anxiety. Just notice where they are. Take a breath around them. Notice how you can just coexist with them. They can't hurt you. And and try and just be present with that experience without trying to rush to escape it. And the client I was coaching last night, we were talking about this, and she always feels like her, like it's an emergency, she has

• 32:39Speaker 03

  to solve it right away. So if her brain offers her these doubts, she has to solve it. She has, she has to know whether it's like, you know, right, wrong, or what she's going to do. So we've been really working on, can she just sit and observe? Like, okay, like, I'm feeling this in my body. And this is the story my brain is telling me. Okay, this isn't an emergency. This is just, you know, a thought and feeling I'm having. It's okay. When you do that, it's kind of like you're turning the volume down. So what felt like a nine out of 10 on the anxious doubt scary spiral scale is going to come down to like a four or a three or even lower. You can just bring your kind of, it's going to turn the volume down, it's going to bring the sensations down a little bit. They might not go completely, but it's going to just make them just kind of more like background noise.

• 33:21Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  From there, that's when you can really check, is there an unchecked story here? Is there an expectation at play that I need to look at? So I always like to get my clients to separate out what are the facts versus what is the story? Just so they can check, is this something I want to keep thinking? So I had a client that would doubt whether her relationship was right whenever her and her partner sat in silence on the sofa scrolling on their phone. And so the fact was they were, they were sat in silence scrolling on their phones. And her thought, her story was, we should be more connected, we shouldn't ever feel bored, we should always have something to talk about.

• 33:55Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  So we've got to challenge those expectations and stories, you know, is that really true? That you should never feel bored ever, just because you're, you have a romantic partner, like why? You know, do you have to be in conversation all the time to love and care about someone? You know, is that really true? Is it possible you can have nothing particular to say in that moment and still really get on with that person and think they're great? So it's kind of like really challenging those misconceptions, those expectations. Is there a shot at play? And you know, who said, who said that you should be doing this? Where did that come from? Was that, was that something from childhood? Was that something from, you know, um, social media or the, the kind of Disney films you watched or, you know, rom coms?

• 34:38Jemma Sbeg?

  Hmm.

• 34:38Speaker 03

  So doing that first is important because you might discover after going through that process, that there's no issue actually. It was just your brain, your fearful brain, sounding the alarm to try and protect you. And actually it's not, not a problem. Other times you might discover that there are things that are a deal breaker, that maybe although you've challenged the story, you still don't really like this thing. Or that there's something that maybe that goes against a value of yours, that it doesn't feel good in the relationship. And that's going to be so much easier to say when you're coming from a calm, rational place and you've challenged those stories first.

• 35:10Jemma Sbeg?

  I love that where it's like, okay. We need to get back to that regulated calm state.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:17Jemma Sbeg?

  Before making any rash decisions. I also think in my experience, and I've done a whole episode on this called anxiety versus intuition. Your intuition about something is not going to demand an answer from you right away. Your anxiety is urgent, your anxiety wants an accelerated solution so that it can return to an internal state of emotional homeostasis. Your intuition will be like, you make this decision in your own time.

• 35:49Speaker 03

  That's a calm knowing rather than that anxious, yeah, totally.

• 35:53Jemma Sbeg?

  Exactly, and it all comes back to this. I also think um there are some pretty obvious red flags, right? And I think that if you are continuously having this feeling of, oh, this just doesn't feel right. And it's making you miserable in other situations, like where it just won't go away and you are miserable because of it. And you've discussed it with that person. And they, and it just isn't being resolved, like there is a genuine need that is not being met for you. So like sitting on your phone with your partner, if you are sitting on the couch and you're sitting in silence and you're kind of like, I actually kind of enjoy this, but maybe we shouldn't be doing this. That's probably an anxious thought, but if you're sitting on the couch and you turn to your partner and say,

• 36:37Jemma Sbeg?

  hey, I actually really would want us to, I really want to connect right now. And they're like, no, I don't want to, leave me alone. And they're not listening to you.

• 36:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:46Jemma Sbeg?

  Like that, I think that is an actual doubt. It's something that you can't collaborate through. It's something that like, if there's going to be this fifty fifty, you want a team member. You want someone who you actually can collaborate with and compromise with. If that's not them, I think it's not going to work. What are some?

• 37:04Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 37:05Jemma Sbeg?

  Sorry.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, I was just gonna say, one of, one of the things I teach as well is this idea of the want match. Um, and it's this idea that. We have different wants in a relationship and some people will match those and some people won't. So, you know, you might have a want for a partner that's really physically affectionate. And they might be someone that doesn't like physical affection. Well, that's not a want match then. And I think, yeah, when we can really, it's kind of like when we can calm the, the overprotective guard dog down. Like, it's okay, buddy. It's okay. We're gonna be all right. We can then drop into that. Well, what are the deal breaker to me? What is the kind of partner I want? You know, no partner's gonna be perfect. This person isn't gonna do it perfectly all the time. But are we aligned with our values and our want matches? You know, do we want the same things out of a relationship?

• 37:49Speaker 03

  If, if this person wants to, you know, never really have sex, that's what they want. But you have a, you know, you have a really strong sex drive and sex is really important to you. Okay, that might not be a want match and that's okay too. Um, so yeah, I love that you said that. And I think you're right. When we can kind of drop into that calmness, it becomes so much easier to decipher.

• 38:10Jemma Sbeg?

  And if you have respect for the other person, it's like, I just feel like that is also, it's just such a big thing. And if there's no respect, that is a deal breaker you should listen to. I also believe, and you can correct me on this, because you're the expert. But this is my personal opinion. I also believe that you don't have to address your doubts right now. If you feel comfortable and stable, you know what I mean? Like, the anxiety, again, is this urgent thing. I find that sometimes with my relationship at OCD, I'm like, what if I feel differently in five years? And then I've wasted all this time and there was something five years ago that I didn't see. And we're five years down the line and I ignored it. And oh my God, now my whole life is over.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  I think that is the story we've got to challenge as well. And, and sorry to, to cut in there. But that is what I hear so much. When, when people say, I'm so worried that I'm gonna regret this in five years' time. I think it's so, um, it's so interesting because if we think about, you know, your brain is constantly telling you stories. And basically in those moments, we're saying, I'm afraid that in five years' time, my brain might tell me the story that I've wasted time. And so I'm really afraid today that my brain is gonna say something to me in five years' time that I won't like. But we forget that in five years' time, we get to decide whether we believe that. And I think this is why, one of the things I always think of R S A D is, we've got to really look at what our brain is so afraid of underneath this all.

• 39:38Speaker 03

  Like, okay, if you are in this relationship and it ends in five years' time, what is scary about that? And I, I think, you know, that there's that thought you said, well, it means I've wasted time. That's not actually a fact. That is totally an optional way to think. And, you know, I always think, I, I got married last year and I hope we're going to stay together forever. But if in five years' time, we don't, we, we break up for whatever reason, I'm never gonna think, oh, I wasted time. That was the wrong relationship and now I need to beat myself up for that. I'm gonna think, no, that was the total right decision for me in that moment. And that was a, a beautiful relationship. And if it ends in five years' time, I get to go and create another great relationship.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  And I think that is really what we need to look at, you know, what is it that you're afraid of? Is it that you're gonna tell yourself you chose wrong if this relationship ends? Is it that you don't believe you could handle the breakup? Is it a fear of getting divorced? Is it, you know, that you think that you then won't be able to meet anyone else at a certain age? Because I think we almost need to be willing for our relationships to end and know that we can handle them. But for so many of us, we see the idea of a relationship ending as failure. So we think, okay, in order for me to see this as a success and believe I'm good at relationships and I'm doing it right, this relationship has to last forever. So we almost then start to work backwards and we're like, okay, well, how do I know that this person's gonna be my forever person?

• 41:05Speaker 03

  Well, then I need to make sure that we never argue that we, and then we start to look for all these red flags and, and it just, it ruins our experience of it. Versus, what if it didn't need to last forever necessarily? And again, I'm married, it's not me saying that I don't want my marriage to last forever, I'd love if it did. But I'm, I'm open to the possibility that if it ended, I could be okay. And I wouldn't beat myself up, I wouldn't make it mean I failed, it wouldn't be a failed relationship, it would be a relationship that lasted however long it lasted. Um, so I, I don't know what you think of that and what that brings up for you, but that for me was a, is a really kind of important piece of this as well.

• 41:44Jemma Sbeg?

  I'll tell you what I think about that. Absolutely amazing advice. I think that's incredible advice. And I think that that is going to change the brain chemistry of a lot of people listening. Because it is absolutely true. It's like, just because a relationship doesn't last forever, doesn't mean it wasn't beautiful, doesn't mean it wasn't right then. And I think it's so funny. You've just unlocked this in me of like, maybe, I think that all that our doubts are, all that our anxiety is, is our brain trying to have some insurance against future suffering.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Yes, that's it.

• 42:16Jemma Sbeg?

  It's just like, okay, well, if I worry about this, this is like my insurance. This is like gonna stop this. I'm sorry, but your anxiety is gonna do nothing to stop you from suffering in the future. It's just gonna make you suffer now. And again, there's this huge study in psychology that basically says, we tend to over dramatize or intensify how we think we'll feel in the future. So you're sitting here right now and you're saying, well, if I don't get the dream job now in 10 years, I'm gonna feel so terrible. Actually, they've done studies on this and they've found most of the time, people actually feel pretty neutral. We overexaggerate how we think we'll feel in the future.

• 42:57Jemma Sbeg?

  And this is the same thing with relationship OCD. Your relationship doesn't work out, it is gonna be devastating. But it's not gonna, your life isn't gonna be over.

• 43:07Jemma Sbeg?

  You'll, you will be fine. People, so many people have made this pilgrimage, have had relationships that have failed. And they have thought it was absolutely perfect. So your anxiety doesn't mean one thing or the other. It's just, again, this insurance. But I wanna ask this, this follow up question, which is, you're sitting here, you're doubting your relationship, you're with this amazing person. How do you deal with the guilt of that? Do you, the guilt of like, well, if I, if I'm having doubts, maybe they are better off without me.

• 43:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, that's so, so common as well. And, and yeah, there's so much shame and guilt around this. And, and yeah, I think the most important thing to remember is that you aren't your thoughts. So the thoughts you have of doubt of judgment towards your partner, of doubting if you love them enough, of doubting whether they're right for you, you're not those thoughts. You're just the observer of those thoughts. Those thoughts are just random sentences that your brain offers you. And your brain works through repetition. So the fact that they come up so often is just because those are the ones you've been practicing for so, so long. They're like your brain. It's like the, it's like a radio station that, that loves to play the same three songs. Like, your brain is gonna keep offering you the same thoughts that it loves to play the most.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  And that's all these thoughts are. They're just, they've been programmed into your brain from so many places. Maybe past experiences, maybe messages from society, maybe, you know, early traumas that you had, or, or just these fears and doubts about what it would mean if the relationship ended. You know, that is what created these thoughts. So it's kind of remembering that you just get to observe the thoughts. You don't need to beat yourself up for the thoughts being there. And, you know, having those doubts isn't a sign that you're a mean, unloving person, or, or even that you don't love your partner. It's just a sign that your brain has been trained to think in a certain way about relationships right now. So I would always say if you notice you're feeling guilt, if you're shaming yourself,

• 45:01Speaker 03

  try and shift to some self compassion of like, I'm just a human with a very normal human brain and that's okay. You know, my fears and doubts aren't me. I'm just the observer of them. That's okay.

• 45:12Jemma Sbeg?

  There's a new therapeutic practice called radical self compassion that I came across a three ye- a few years ago. Just like changed my life. It's like you can un, you can promise to unconditionally love someone else. Why can't you promise to unconditionally love yourself?

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah.

• 45:28Jemma Sbeg?

  If that's completely possible, like, it's also, coming back to this, oh, the, you know, there's a term OCD is in this, is in, is in relationship OCD. OCD is defined in large part by intrusive thoughts that we feel like we don't have control over.

• 45:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:46Jemma Sbeg?

  That really aligns with this guilt, this sense of like, why am I thinking this? I must be a bad person. And people with just, you know, regular OCD will find that a lot. Like, why am I thinking about, why am I thinking about crashing this car? Why am I suddenly thinking these terrible things? This means something about me. And what you're saying is, you know, it doesn't, which I think is really, really beautiful.

• 46:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, it totally does. And it's just the way your brain has been trained to think right now. And, and that's okay. You can just be, it's almost like you can think of your brain as this separate entity from you. Like, you can use different analogies, whether you want to think of it like a scared frightened animal, like a little toddler. You know, like you're the parent of it, like whatever analogy works for you. But you want to remember that you are the manager of your mind. You're not your mind. And, and really changing your relationship to it is so important. If, if every time your brain says something to you, you freak out and take it super seriously. Or you beat yourself up for having it, or you start to scream at it, why are you like this? You know, that's not going to be a very great way of managing it versus calmly being able to observe what it's saying. And, and guide it to where you want it to go.

• 46:50Jemma Sbeg?

  Again, such beautiful advice. Well, we're going to take one more short break. And when we return, we've got some wonderful listener questions. So stay with us.

• 47:02Jemma Sbeg?

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• 49:22Jemma Sbeg?

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• 50:06Jemma Sbeg?

  Signing up couldn't be easier. And once you've joined, the exclusive member discounts instantly appear. You don't have to do anything. No coupons. You'll just enjoy savings on the items you buy most. We're talking about saving. On essentials like household items, snacks, health, personal care products, plus travel and seasonal stuff too, all right there in store, couldn't be easier. Deals refresh every two weeks, so there's always something new, but they don't last long. Extra big deals with extra care, instant savings made simple. Head to your local CVS or open the CVS app, look for extra big deals and start saving today. Okay Rebecca, this is something I've been doing recently where,

• 50:50Jemma Sbeg?

  you know, there are just so many niche questions that people have for me out there about specific topics. And I want to make sure that we cover everything that they ask. So I've got four listener questions for you today, actually three listener questions and one bonus question for me. So I'm going to tell you those right now, starting with this first question, which is coming from Emma.

• 51:12Jemma Sbeg?

  I feel like I'm totally madly in love with my partner. And we have a beautiful relationship, except for one thing. I feel like we cannot communicate and we're always having fights slash tension over the same things over and over again. Should I break up with them or do I just accept this as a flaw that they will always have and live with it?

• 51:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's an interesting question and I think it was kind of hard for me to give an answer in the sense of knowing more about the context of the situation would be really important. But also there is no right answer, you know, there's no expert out there that can tell you what relationship is right for you or when to stay or when to go, that's never my job. But I think before you make a decision to to leave or stay, it's just to do some real self-reflection on your own thoughts and feelings and the way you're showing up. Because if you do decide to leave, this can just be a really great kind of um opportunity for you to take back control of who you are in relationships.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  So you know, noticing, okay, what is the pattern in this communication? Is it that I say something, then they say something and then, you know, I get defensive, then they get defensive? Like, we want to just look at what is going on. And really come back to owning your side of it, you know, okay, well, what, how are you approaching conversations? What is the, the feelings you're having and, and what are the reoccurring thoughts driving that? You know, do you keep making him sighing, enduring an, an argument, meaning he is unbothered or like whatever? And can we just, let's just challenge some of that so we can see, is there a different way to navigate these moments? That might turn the volume down on them completely, that might make it less of a problem.

• 52:58Speaker 03

  Um, so again, that's really hard to just coach on anything, just a short pithy answer on a, a, a podcast. But I would do some work on, on that, really looking at, okay, what are my thoughts and feelings during these situations? And how do those thoughts and feelings have me showing up? And is that intentional? Am I really showing up as my intentional higher self in these moments? And if, if not, no, there's no shame there. We all, we all struggle with that from time to time. But spend a moment just trying to, to work on that for yourself. And, and I always advise getting curious about what might be going on in our partner's brain too. You know, if your partner keeps having the same response to something, let's get curious, you know, what might that be about for them?

• 53:39Speaker 03

  You know, do they keep hearing something you're saying and interpreting it as, um, they're not good enough? You know, me and my wife had this at the start of our relationship. Whenever I kind of gave some feedback or some criticism on something, she'd get very defensive. And when I kind of dropped into that curiosity and, and even got curious with her about, you know, what is it that, that comes up for you? When I say that, what's going on for you? It was that she thought I was saying she was a bad partner. And I wasn't saying that at all, but that was what her brain was hearing. So I think we can bring that curiosity and, and, and then see what comes out of that. But, but yeah, there's going to be at some point where you've really worked on yourself in it. You know, you're doing your best, you're showing up as your best self. And the other person isn't able to meet you where you want them to be, or that they're not able to, to kind of have the same values with you

• 54:24Speaker 03

  in terms of communication and, and openness or, you know, emotional regulation, whatever it is. And I think, yeah, sometimes it's accepting that, okay, this is the person for who they are. This is who they are. Is this someone I want to commit to loving for the, the good, the bad, the ugly?

• 54:42Jemma Sbeg?

  I love that advice. Our second question comes from a listener called Shaun. Shaun asks, is there a correlation between relationship OCD and an anxious attachment style?

• 54:56Speaker 03

  Hmm. I mean, yeah, I would definitely say so. I think with anyone with an anxious attachment style, their brain is kind of programmed to see relationships as dangerous, unsafe. They think that how this person behaves will either create safety or, you know, danger. So they are constantly monitoring, you know, what's this person doing? What does it mean about me if they leave me? What does it mean about me if they, you know, don't, if they're not as interested anymore? And, and there's this kind of focus on the other person to create this inner feeling of safety and security. Totally, of course, then relates to R O C D, because it's kind of the same fixation. The brain is seeing that thing outside of you, that person, that relationship, as either safe or dangerous, and trying to

• 55:39Speaker 03

  work out which it is and, and kind of create safety from it. So yeah, I definitely think there's a, there's a correlation there. And for me, I, I think whether it's R O C D, whether it's anxious attachment, it's really coming back to looking at your internal experience rather than trying to focus on the external, rather than focusing on what is my partner doing or not doing. It's, okay, what are the thoughts and feelings I'm having? And what is that bringing up? Like, what is, whatever's going on out here bringing up within me? Um, because that's where the safety and security is actually created. It's never created by the thing outside of us. Um, it's created by our own thoughts and, and the beliefs we have. So yeah, I, I hope that answers that question. There's definitely

• 56:24Speaker 03

  a correlation. And, and yeah, coming back to whichever it is, getting curious about your internal experience is really important.

• 56:31Jemma Sbeg?

  Yeah. Excellent advice. So this is the final listener question. My relationship OCD is so bad that I cannot go more than a day without thinking that I should break up with my partner. I love them, but some part of me really just wants a break from my own thoughts. Would you recommend taking some time away just to get my relationship OCD under order slash regulated? Or should I stick it out and work with them?

• 57:03Speaker 03

  Hmm. It's a really good question. And again, I want to say that there's no right or wrong. If you feel like you just really need a break, do it. You know, you you know what's right for you. Let yourself be the guide of that. But one thing I will say is that often when we're experiencing an emotion we don't like, like anxiety, we think the solution is to remove the external thing that we're blaming for causing it. So with R O C D, we think anxious attachment, it's the partner. We think, let's remove that. And then I won't have to have these thoughts and feelings. And there's some truth in that. You know, if that's the thing that triggers the thoughts and feelings, okay, you're probably going to get some relief. But what we don't really realise is that, well, that those thoughts and feelings are still going to be there

• 57:46Speaker 03

  the minute we go back to the relationship or the minute we start another relationship. You know, I've seen so many people leave relationships thinking, okay, this partner was the problem, I'm going to leave. And then they have the same anxious doubtful thoughts in the next one. And they're like, oh, damn it. Like, turns out changing the partner didn't really work. So my advice, if you're, if you feel like you're able, if you don't feel like, you know, you're at the a real burnt out place with it, that you just need the break, take that if you need it. But I would also consider, what if instead of trying to escape the thoughts, what if I could work on changing my relationship to them? So if your brain keeps offering you the thought, this relationship is wrong for me, I should end this relationship. You want to start changing your relationship to that thought. So when it comes up, it can be like, oh,

• 58:30Speaker 03

  there's my brain's favourite story again. Okay, I'm noticing my brain is offering me that story again, that this relationship is wrong for me. Interesting. Like, here's my brain's favourite story to tell me right now. And and kind of change how seriously you're taking it. Consider, how does it make sense that your brain is offering this to you? Oh, it makes total sense. My brain wants to keep going back here because it's terrified of this relationship being wrong for me. Or it's terrified of me ever having to go through a breakup in five years' time. Okay, so it makes sense that my brain keeps wants, keeps wanting to offer me these thoughts. And so there's so much more work you can do in that. There's different kinds of tools you can use for diffusing thoughts. There's this thing that you can kind of sing the the intrusive thought to yourself, it kind of lightens the mood of it.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  And there's things like kind of seeing the thought coming from this, like, oh, like separate voice from you. And there's different things you can do, but that would be my advice to you is, is how can you make the occurrence of this thought less of a problem? Um. Because what that's gonna do is turn down the volume on it altogether. It's gonna seem like less of a problem. And from there, y- your anxiety is going to come down a lot as well.

• 59:40Jemma Sbeg?

  This final question is for me, and I ask every single guest on the show this question. What is one piece of advice you'd have for anyone in their twenties that has nothing to do with what we talked about today?

• 59:54Speaker 03

  Well, the thing I was gonna say was change our relationship to our thoughts, but I guess I can't say that it has got nothing to do with it.

• 1:00:00Jemma Sbeg?

  It's a bit of a.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  Honestly, yeah, I know it's a difficult one. And, and yeah, honestly, then the, the piece of advice I'd give to anyone in their twenties.

• 1:00:10Speaker 03

  Is just to go easy on themselves. I know that sounds like such a basic thing to say, but I think sometimes it does kind, it does kind of tie into what we're, we're talking about, but. We have so much pressure from things we see on social media, from. Expectations, maybe our parents have of us, from what our, you know, friends are doing. And I think just remembering that, you know, life is supposed to be fun. That, that, you know. You can actually change so much of your experience of what you're going through in any situation. By just lightening up and being a little bit more of a friend to yourself about it, you know, offering yourself that compassion, being your own biggest cheerleader.

• 1:00:51Speaker 03

  Um. And remembering that, you know, that there's nothing that could happen that you couldn't be equipped to handle. And, and that is something I really focus on a lot, um, with my own clients is, is looking at whatever that fear is, that worst case scenario. And, and considering, you know. How could I feel empowered to show up to handle that if it happened? You know, what would I want to think and feel if that happens? Um. So, yeah, I think kind of a mixed bag of advice there. Of course, as I was gonna say, your relationship to your thoughts and changing that is so, so important. But also working on having more of that lighthearted, compassionate, you know, kind of.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Supportive relationship with yourself is such a game changer. And if you can master that in your twenties, your thirties, your forties, it, it's gonna all be great. If you can work on that relationship with you, where you know, I'm gonna have my own back no matter what happens. You know, i- it's gonna be great.

• 1:01:48Jemma Sbeg?

  That's such a resounding beautiful way to finish this episode. I want to thank you so much for coming on. I'm going to leave all of your links below, but where can people find you?

• 1:01:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, amazing. So I'm on Instagram mainly, so you can find me at Rebecca or Coaching. So that's Rebecca and then O R E Coaching. And you can also come find me on my podcast, which is Master Your Relationship Mind Drama. And yeah, I'll, I'll send you all the links to the website and things like that. But yeah, it's Instagram and my podcast mainly where people can come find me if they want to know more about thought work and managing their thoughts and managing their anxiety. And I talk a lot about that on the podcast as well.

• 1:02:29Jemma Sbeg?

  I know your podcast is actually the perfect. If this is an episode that you're really related to, go and check out Rebecca's podcast because there is so much advice there. But as always, if you enjoyed this episode as well, share it with a friend who might need to hear it. Leave a five star review wherever you are listening. Make sure you're following along and make sure you're following along on Instagram at That Psychology Podcast. It's where I got the listener questions today. It's where I love to engage with you all. If you've made it this far into the episode, hello, lucky, lucky, lucky. I want you to leave a little magic crystal ball emoji in the comments. Because that's what we think our relationship OCD is and it's not. So it's also a great way to know who the loyal listeners are. Yeah, who's listened this far?

• 1:03:14Jemma Sbeg?

  And as always, we will be back next week. Until then, stay safe, please be kind. In the theme of today's episode, be gentle with yourself and we will talk very, very soon.

• 1:03:30Jemma Sbeg?

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• 1:04:51Jemma Sbeg?

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