Cheating Isn't Black and White feat. Esther Perel

We are re-releasing one of our most beloved and impactful interviews with the iconic Esther Perel, with a fresh intro (plus never before seen footage for the video version). The renowned psychotherapist and author joins us to talk about relationships, sexuality, and infidelity. We cover cheating in depth, including why it occurs, why it hurts so badly, how to trust again, and whether relationships can come back from infidelity. And we're also discussing the expectations we put on our partners nowadays, why they may not be realistic, and how to navigate this for a healthy relationship. Enjoy! Follow Esther on Instagram at @EstherPerelOfficial, and visit https://www.estherperel.com/. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for live show tickets and more. Thank you to our partners this week: Bilt: Get points by paying rent at https://joinbilt.com/gge. Better Help: Get 10% off your first month at https://betterhelp.com/gge. Helix: Get 20% off at https://helixsleep.com/gge. Smart Mouth: Get a special discount on your next SmartMouth purchase at www.smartmouth.com/GGE. Columbia Sportswear: Head to https://www.columbia.com/ to get your hands on an Amaze Puff Jacket. Saks Fifth Avenue: Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  And that's when you say it is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the perpetrator and the victim, if you want. It's a little more complicated. And since it happens in so many of our families, we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment.

• 0:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to sort of another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  A very important re-released episode.

• 0:42Rayna Greenberg?

  Because?

• 0:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because I'm married, you guys, apparently. Well, you never know. Who's to say?

• 0:48Rayna Greenberg?

  We still have.

• 0:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  10 days.

• 0:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Almost two weeks.

• 0:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're recording this before. Obviously, we were not gonna drop a new episode the Monday after my wedding.

• 0:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I think you'll get married, so Sparkle Eyes is in the room with us. Do you think you're gonna go through with it?

• 1:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you want to pop in?

• 1:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Nope. No on both.

• 1:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Proof that men can only answer one question at a time.

• 1:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  So we are gonna have him on and recap the wedding on November 17th. We just want to be real with you guys and be upfront about the scheduling and the way we were able to do this so I could enjoy myself and, you know.

• 1:24Rayna Greenberg?

  And then it's back to work, bitch.

• 1:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so November 17th, we'll recap it all. He will come on, spoiler alert. But yeah, so as it stands now, hopefully it happened, you know?

• 1:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, so you're on your honeymoon and we'll.

• 1:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mini mini moon. You're sort of like a cool, quick three day trip.

• 1:41Rayna Greenberg?

  I like the way you've gamed this to have multiple honeymoon.

• 1:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think everyone, I think this is kind of what people do. They take a few days right after and then plan something big for later.

• 1:51Rayna Greenberg?

  I always find, we've talked about this in the past. I find it crazy that people spend months planning a wedding and they leave the next day. And listen, if you have the capacity to plan a whole vacation, but like packing by itself, packing for a week wipes me out.

• 2:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, this is what I said to you. I can't. Wrap my head around, I need to be packed for a minimum 10 day vacation, two weeks, whatever you're going to take on the Tuesday before my wedding.

• 2:16Rayna Greenberg?

  I can't wrap my head around it.

• 2:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  But yeah, there was no way to plan it. You know, we're going to take some time off and then next year we'll do a big trip. We don't even really quite know where it's going to be.

• 2:26Rayna Greenberg?

  The world?

• 2:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  In the world.

• 2:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Like where the world's going to be or where your thing's going to be? We're going to Italy. What do you mean?

• 2:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, he said we're going to Japan.

• 2:34Rayna Greenberg?

  We're going to Italy.

• 2:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're going to a group trip to Italy.

• 2:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, also, we are going to go to Japan before we move out of LA.

• 2:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  He and I are going to go to Japan at some point. My dream honeymoon is an African safari. It's not his.

• 2:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  I wish you guys could see his face right now.

• 2:53Rayna Greenberg?

  He's not even paying attention to us.

• 2:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  He's scrolling. It's his birthday.

• 2:58Rayna Greenberg?

  We made him come over here and do manual labor in the studio.

• 3:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  He brought beers in a little lunchbox.

• 3:04Rayna Greenberg?

  He's so cute. His little six pack in his lunchbox, like Anton, carrying around his little six pack.

• 3:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Babe, where did the tequila bottle go?

• 3:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm proud of you that you understood that reference.

• 3:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, so anyway, today Esther Perel.

• 3:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes. So, I mean, people always say, who's your number one dream guest? She was always one of our top dream guests and my number one top dream guest. She is a psychotherapist who's world renowned, absolutely changed my life with her work. She really focuses on fidelity, monogamy, and that is what we recorded with her a couple of years back, one of our top episodes, and we're going to re-release that today. It's one of my favorite episodes that we've done.

• 3:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  So we've had her on twice. This was the very first time she came on. This was in 2021. It was such a dream. Like they say, never meet your heroes. And we had met my hero a few weeks prior, and that really did not go well. And so then we got to meet your hero, totally different experience. She couldn't have been more wonderful. She hung out. She had a game that we were playing afterwards. So this episode, we did not do full video episodes back then. We started that, I think, the following year in 2022, but we would record full video for, to cut a few reels. What were we doing?

• 4:13Rayna Greenberg?

  That is so much memory.

• 4:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  But I was still editing the podcast, so we didn't have Anna.

• 4:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Was it one video angle?

• 4:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, we

• 4:19Rayna Greenberg?

  We did multi-angle for

• 4:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you not know what's about to happen?

• 4:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyway, so if you guys are watching-

• 4:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Actually, that's what happened last month.

• 4:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  If you guys are watching, you already know more than Reina. So this is a full, yeah, it's us on the couch in the New York old studio and Astaire. And it's incredible. So we have our old faces, well, maybe like version two faces.

• 4:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I had my old face.

• 4:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  I am post rhinoplasty.

• 4:43Rayna Greenberg?

  I am pre chin implant.

• 4:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. So this is how we used to look in 2021. And this is never before seen video. So if you guys listen to the episode, I highly recommend you revisit it. I re listened as we decided to re-release this and I hadn't remembered it word for word, of course, just so much incredible information. I love that we're releasing an episode about cheating the day after my wedding, but here we are.

• 5:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Not really on brand, but-

• 5:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  She is just the, I mean, premier voice in this space and she really takes such a unique, realistic, nuanced perspective on everything, especially monogamy.

• 5:20Rayna Greenberg?

  So I read her book, State of Affairs, Made in Cattivity is her other really famous book. And State of Affairs was really the first time I ever read a person write about cheating as not a black and white thing, as being very gray, as something that is really heavily practiced throughout the world, highly misunderstood, really vilified, but something that so many people do and an able experience, either themselves being the cheater or being cheated on. And it's so nuanced and the way she speaks about it is just incredible. So we had a profound discussion with her.

• 5:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  So enjoy this deep cut. We are just gonna talk about our partners and we will get into it.

• 5:58Rayna Greenberg?

  All right. Thank you to Bilt. Get points by paying rent at joinbilt.com/gge and BetterHelp. Get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/gge. And thank you to Helix. Get 20% off at helixsleep.com/gge.

• 6:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Smart Mouth. Get a special discount on your next Smart Mouth purchase at smartmouth.com/gge. And Columbia Sportswear, head to columbia.com to get your hands on an Amaze Puff Jacket. And thank you to Saks Fifth Avenue. Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style. And without further ado, here is the interview.

• 6:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, guys, we are really excited to welcome our guest for today. She is a world-renowned psychotherapist who is iconic in the couples' therapy space. She is a New York Times bestselling author of two of my favorite books on how we love, Mating in Captivity, and State of Affairs. Her collection of TED Talks have amassed over 30 million views, and they include The Secret to Desire and Long-Term Relationships, and Rethinking Infidelity, a talk for anyone who has ever loved. Please welcome to the show one of my personal favorites, Esther Perel.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  Hello, hello.

• 7:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, thank you for being here.

• 7:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  This is a huge day for us.

• 7:12Rayna Greenberg?

  And we had such a nice time chatting with you and talking to you, catching up on, you just told us your TED Talks have amassed 30 million views. I was in Miami with my boyfriend, and we were watching one of your TED Talks in the hotel room instead of going down to the beach.

• 7:25Speaker 00

  Oh, oh. It was good. Somebody I met this week and was saying, I'm driving, no, I'm, we were literally talking, and like five minutes into it, she says, "I know this voice, I know this voice. I drive with you to Boston. I listen to the episodes of your podcast. Where should we begin? Are you that person?"

• 7:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I was telling you that I listened to an episode of your podcast, and I got lost, and I ended up in New Jersey because I was so invested.

• 7:51Speaker 00

  That's a terrible place to get lost.

• 7:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Luckily, I was coming back to New York, but I just got so invested in this couple. And so I eventually just was like, I need to turn this off and wait till I get home and finish and wrap it up. But it's heavy, and it's raw, and it's incredible.

• 8:08Speaker 00

  Shall we say what it is?

• 8:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  The podcast?

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. It is Couples Therapy Live.

• 8:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  It is you, a fly on the wall, listening in.

• 8:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  And why? Because too many couples spend their time posturing and curating their lives, and they don't tell the truth. And so then you say it's heavy because it's actually real. It's not always heavy, but it's the truth. And most of us don't know what really happens in the love lives of our closest friends.

• 8:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I mean,

• 8:37Speaker 00

  I mean, the two of you may know a lot about each other.

• 8:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  We know a lot, and it makes us almost... We ask each other sometimes, like, whose relationship do you really want? You know, like, so many people want to be in a relationship so badly. And we're like, but we know, we almost know too much.

• 8:50Speaker 00

  You know, yes, yes, yes.

• 8:52Rayna Greenberg?

  It's the first thing people share with us. And you as well, I shared something with you, which we're not going to share on the podcast today. But within two minutes of meeting you, I shared something very personal with you. And that's our experience as well. And we talk about that, too. You know, you have this whole list of what you want from somebody in a relationship and this idea of this perfection. And like, I don't know anybody that gets to have that. You know, I think the goal is just to have most of the things you want with a person that you trust and that you love spending time with.

• 9:14Speaker 00

  Or you switch the focus from everything that you want in the other person to asking yourself, at least sometimes, who do you want to be? Not just who do you want to meet? What should they bring to the table? What do you want to bring to the table? I think that that would balance the thing as well.

• 9:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  We love that. Sometimes we think of someone that has this big list of what they want in a partner. But what are you, what's your list?

• 9:41Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 9:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Look like?

• 9:42Speaker 00

  That's right. Who are you being in this relationship?

• 9:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, Raina, I'm going to let Raina kind of take it away on this. You're, you know, her, her dream guest. I'm so glad to have you here, too. But you can kind of lead the convo. We don't have you all day.

• 9:54Speaker 00

  It's a real treat that I'm here. And honestly, I had no idea I was rejecting you.

• 10:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, your publicist did. She's here, too.

• 10:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, this is perfect. We're so glad.

• 10:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, and we're ready for the interview, too. I don't, honestly, I would say like, day one, I wouldn't have been ready to have these type of conversations.

• 10:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 10:14Rayna Greenberg?

  But I found your work about four years ago, I read the book State of Affairs. And it really focuses on fidelity and infidelity from a lot of different lenses. So why do people cheat? Why would somebody take back a cheater? What does that do to a marriage or a relationship? And then you end the book, actually, with, why would somebody be a mistress? And why would somebody accept that? And I like the whole 360 view of all this. And so we'll talk about those things today and talk about fidelity and reframing how you think about it. But you wrote a couple of things in the book that I wrote down that I thought were really profound. And it's a couple of sentences. So I'll read you back to you. But you wrote, "This extremely common human experience is so poorly understood. Adultery has existed since marriage was invented, and so too the prohibition against it.

• 10:55Rayna Greenberg?

  What are we to make of this time-honored taboo, universally forbidden and yet universally practiced?" And I feel, I find that very moving because, yes, we think of this as the cardinal sin, cheating on someone or wanting to cheat on someone or saying, I want to be in an open relationship. But so many of us do these things, or want to do these things, or have the inclination towards it. So you sort of floated this idea of like, are our ideas, are our ideas of marriage wrong? And what we should have in a relationship wrong? So I would love to talk about that stuff today.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  You know, if you add a tiny bit of history, and also a broader cultural perspective, let's also say that for most of history, men have had the opportunity to cheat with impunity. And it often was also even justified in all kinds of evolutionary and biological terms. It's the women who were not allowed. There's always been a double standard. What has really changed is the meaning of infidelity. What it means in the context of romantic love. If romantic love is not that your father picks for you, because that's how it is, it's the father that picks for you in many places, and you get to choose, and you get to choose freely as you get a little older, and somebody chooses you, and not

• 12:09Speaker 00

  only do they choose you, but we have this idea of the one and only, you know, and you find your soulmate supposedly, we can discuss that in a minute. Then, when the person cheats on you, it is the shattering of the grand ambition of love. It is the fact that you are not the one and only. It is the fact that you may be replaceable, and it just pierces you. So infidelity has always existed, but what it means has deeply changed. And when you had women who were economically dependent on men, then the cheating also meant an economic destitution, you know, so you had to stay. Once women became economically independent, and they can live, and they can sustain themselves, then it becomes the

• 12:54Speaker 00

  cardinal sin from which I'm not supposed to take you back. That question about taking back is a question that my grandmother never had the privilege of asking. She had no choice.

• 13:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wow. We wanted to talk about while we're here, like, why it hurts so bad? And there's something about, even if there's a cheating situation, or even if someone just moves on after you have broken up, it like is the worst pain in the world. And I dealt with that. I think we've all dealt with that. And I'm trying to figure out why, you know, like it. And it's, I think, obviously, that feeling of feeling replaceable, like you're not the only one wondering, was this ever real? You know, am I lovable? Am I unlovable?

• 13:36Speaker 00

  So you know, you say, Rena, that I write this sentence, historically practiced, historically forbidden. I ask audiences, and this goes a moment before the why it hurts. You ask an audience, have you been affected by the experience of infidelity in your life? Either because your parent, one of your parents, was unfaithful, or fell in love with another person and went to live and make a new life with another person. Either because you yourself are the child of an illicit love. Either because you were the third person that completed the triangle. Either because you're the friend on whose shoulder somebody's been weeping for weeks, or because you are the friend that somebody has been confiding with,

• 14:20Speaker 00

  you know, in utter titillation and excitement and revelation. And 80% of every audience I'm standing with raises their hand. So it is not just a few bad apples. We, this experience is pervasive, it's systemic, it's intergenerational, it's secrets in the family, et cetera, et cetera. On the one-on-one question that you ask, why does it hurt when this is done to me? It's experienced as the most painful violation of trust. I thought we were in this together and you had my back and you would not put your interests ahead of mine. How could you be so selfish? It must be a confirmation that I'm not enough. I'm not good enough. Other people, this is what I've always thought, I'm unlovable.

• 15:05Speaker 00

  Nobody will stay with me. I'm destined to be abandoned. And here it is. Or, I mean, these are all, you know, soliloquies in our heads about why this is so painful. You fall in love with someone else and I love you and I miss you and I ache for you. And, you know, how do I get you to come back? And you cannot force someone to love. Or, I love you very much. I want you to have those experiences with somebody else because I am not able to satisfy you sexually. Because I'm sick, because I have all kinds of disabilities that don't allow me to be sexual with you anymore. But I wish I could. It really hurts me that I cannot give you everything that we share together. So it's all of that.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  It's, I thought I knew my life. And suddenly I realized that for the last five weeks to five years, you know, there's a whole other story happening in the shadow of my life.

• 16:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 16:01Speaker 00

  Where the hell is my head? All of that makes us go, feel like we go crazy when we learn.

• 16:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Actually crazy.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, you know, those moments of like, I'm a crazy person.

• 16:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  But when you put it in those terms, it's overwhelming, all of those feelings.

• 16:16Speaker 00

  It is overwhelming. It is a very overwhelming experience. And more so, when it is wrapped in this notion of, I thought I was the one. How could that happen to me? Or how could you do this to me? When I work in other parts of the world, you know, I once was in Morocco with a group of young women that were working in a, in a center together. And I gathered all of them and I just said, you know, in the US, the pressure is on the woman, especially, I'm talking now, men, women configurations, to leave the unfaithful men. And the girl just says to me, mais madame, if we had to chase away all the unfaithful men, all of Morocco would be divorced.

• 16:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  You know, she just said, this is systemic here. This is not just an issue of a relationship with its issues. And, and I think that is an important thing, is to not think that this only happens because there are issues inside of you or between us. And that by definition, infidelity is a symptom of relationships gone awry. Infidelity has always been a systemic issue of power. That existed alongside marriage, and especially when marriage was not a love affair. When marriage was not about love, but it was about companionship and economic support and family life, people went outside of marriage to seek love. But once love entered marriage, and now you betrayed me, then it became this painful experience that we are describing.

• 17:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, I think we forget how marriage started.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  And not too long ago, not so long ago.

• 17:47Rayna Greenberg?

  So somebody could clean your house, like so you could join like a program, land, you know, like property.

• 17:53Speaker 00

  Right, and children were property too.

• 17:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, so I think that maybe there's like an element of all of us in order to be in a relationship is saying to yourself, I'm different, this will be different. Yeah, and I don't think anybody starts a relationship thinking I will fall out of love, or I won't sexually be attracted to you. And, you know, Ashley and I have friends that have shared with us, and just people in general, that they're happy in their relationship, but it's sexless, or that they have great sexual chemistry, but they're not really in love with their partner. We've seen every version of that, but I think to get into the relationship, you have to say to yourself, it's gonna be different, we are different. So if everybody's doing it, but no one wants it to happen to them, are all of our ideas of what a relationship should be, wrong?

• 18:32Speaker 00

  No, our ideas are not wrong, but we have a model that says, you know, what has happened? We wanted marriage for economic support, companionship, children, social status. Now we also want a best friend, and a trusted confidant, and a passionate lover to boot. And now we have the third level, which is I want the person who's gonna help me become the best version of myself.

• 18:57Rayna Greenberg?

  It's a lot.

• 18:57Speaker 00

  And we live twice as long.

• 19:03Rayna Greenberg?

  It's not realistic. But it's, I mean, it's, it's what we all want, and you know, it's what we get in the beginning of a relationship.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  We think.

• 19:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, you know, I mean, Rain and I have that, just minus the sex. We don't fuck each other. But, you know, I think that we have the beginning of, in the relationship, you know, I'm at the very beginning of a relationship.

• 19:19Speaker 00

  This thing that you just said is very important. You don't have these issues with each other. And many people sit in my office and say, I don't have this with anybody else. And I tell them, I believe you. The only two relationships that have a resonance with each other is the one that you had with your parents or your caregivers and the one that you have with your romantic partner.

• 19:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, you're a different, I'm a different person in my relationship with Ashley.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  It doesn't evoke the same kind of issues. You don't spend your time with her wondering, am I lovable? Am I desirable? Will she leave me? Will she really care about me? Will she stand by me? Is every closeness relationship bound to hurt me? And I'm just waiting for that shoe to drop. You don't. You love her, you care for her, you work with her, and you're free from that angst.

• 20:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 20:01Speaker 00

  Okay. That angst actually may come out only when you date, only when you deal with partners. Male partners, female partners, doesn't matter. It's the romantic piece of it that then brings up all what you had and what you didn't have growing up, that you're not trying to complement in your friendship. Some people do, but that's not what happens here.

• 20:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, so it's unrealistic even to compare, but yeah, I love that. That's, that's so true. It's, there's a certain way you are only with your family and your romantic partner, your parents specifically, but. I'm sure if you like came to my apartment or I came to yours and just like watched you silently in a relationship, I'd be like, who is this person? We are, we exist very differently. I'm a different person with my parents too, and that's a really good comparison. I'm, I'm a different person at home with my mom, you know?

• 20:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  So we are just gonna take a quick break and talk about our partners and then we will get back into it. I am telling you guys about Smart Mouth. We had a little bit of an issue with a Smart Mouth toothpaste in our house. Last night we were brushing our teeth and he was like, where's the Smart Mouth toothpaste? And I was like, I accidentally left it in Vegas. So we need to get more Smart Mouth. But we should have the mouthwash king weigh in. Babe, are you liking this Smart Mouth?

• 21:09Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, 10 out of 10.

• 21:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  He really likes it. He's a real mouthwash person and I never was until Smart Mouth. We all know I'm a coffee drinker. I'm drinking it right now. I love me some garlic, so I really do need to be thinking about my breath. And Smart Mouth has you covered. It gives you fresh breath, confidence for a night out or on a date, peace of mind, knowing you'll never wake up with morning breath again. It is the only mouthwash scientifically proven to give you You 24 hours of fresh breath with just two rinses a day. The secret is their dual solution smart zinc technology as you pour the two solutions activate billions of zinc ions that instantly eliminate bad breath and keep it away all day. I really do love it. It doesn't have some weird aftertaste and just gives you just a fresh mouth. Overall, we love to tell you guys it is developed by the dentist who literally wrote the encyclopedia section on bad breath. Also, what a funny thing to be in the encyclopedia of bad breath.

• 21:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  You just, what is it? What is it? Where does it come from? So we're just such fans of it and they have single packs. You can make it easy to take it on the go in your purse luggage pocket. Like I mentioned, we're talking about the mouthwash, but also I love the toothpaste as well. So never have bad breath again. Find smart mouth at Walgreens, Walmart, and Amazon, or visit www.smartmouth.com/gge to snag a special discount on your next smart mouth purchase. That's www.s m a r t m o u t h dot com slash gge. Don't miss out on 24 hour fresh breath. Your mouth will thank you.

• 22:30Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. And Helix, our longtime mattress sponsor, are the only mattresses that I have in my house, Ashley's house, Ashley's family, my family. We are such fans of this and a good night's sleep is the most important thing to me. I really credit it with my being able to obviously have energy throughout the day, but it just helps my skin, helps me feel youthful. I just love a good night's sleep. I will not sacrifice it. People are always like, what is the mattresses in your house? I'm like, um, it's Helix. It's amazing. So if you go to their site, you'll take a quiz and they'll ask you all kinds of questions to suggest a mattress for you. So do you want to address snoring, back pain, sleep apnea, sleeping too hot? Are you big and tall? Do you sleep next to another person? And they'll make suggestions for you. We love the Midnight Luxe, but you'll take a

• 23:13Rayna Greenberg?

  quiz. It takes just literally a couple of minutes. I love a quiz about myself and they'll recommend something for you and the quality could not be better. Ashley and I have improved our sleep with this. Absolutely. We just love them.

• 23:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  We've been sleeping so hard. We just woke up this morning. We were voicing each other like, man, I slept hard last night.

• 23:29Rayna Greenberg?

  And you know how much we spend time in hotels. So it is important us to come home, be in our Helix matches. So you guys can check it out. You will absolutely love it, whether it's a gift for yourself or for somebody else. Go to helixsleep.com/gge for 20% off. That's helixsleep.com/gge for 20% off and make sure to enter our show name at checkout so they know we sent you. helixsleep.com/gge.

• 23:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  And Saks Fifth Avenue. This episode is brought to you by Saks Fifth Avenue. It's just an easy way to find style inspo. I mean, we are in the thick of fall fashion, coming up on winter fashion, your cozy sweaters, your coats. And we say this all the time, it is such a great place to go find things that you don't see everyone else wearing. Any designer you can imagine. Their list of designers is unconscionable.

• 24:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Unconscionable.

• 24:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Unconscionable.

• 24:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Unconscionable. What movie is that?

• 24:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  What? I don't know.

• 24:20Rayna Greenberg?

  She has the curly hair. It's from Girls.

• 24:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  How do you say it then?

• 24:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Unconscionable.

• 24:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Doesn't it have an S in there? Unconscionable.

• 24:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Unconscionable.

• 24:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, but there's an S. Isn't the word conscious in there?

• 24:33Rayna Greenberg?

  There's an S in the middle.

• 24:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  The word conscious is in there.

• 24:36Rayna Greenberg?

  It's not unconscionable.

• 24:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Any.

• 24:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Unconscionable.

• 24:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anyway, we love Saks. So many incredible.

• 24:42Rayna Greenberg?

  It's unimaginable.

• 24:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's unimaginable. Yeah. You have everything you need. I mean, we always bunch us, Alice and Olivia, Bronson and Bronco, we love, Zavago, we're such big fans of. And then, of course, like Burberry, Gucci, Diesel, Dolce, Hermès, anything you guys could want from really all different price points and just shop in there. Shop by category, shop by event that you're shopping for. There's great gift guides. There's stuff for women, men, children, your home, get your fragrances, jewelry, accessories. We're just such fans of it and we are really on there. Like these days, if someone asks me like, where should I look for outfit to wear to a special event? I'm like, Saks. And if you, listener girls gotta eat, you know, we're talking about every week.

• 25:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 25:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So shopping really, it should be easy and fun. They'll help you personal style in store or online. So you guys check it out. Head to Saks Fifth Avenue or saks.com for inspiring ways to elevate your personal style every day.

• 25:39Rayna Greenberg?

  So can we, should we go back to this kind of expectations?

• 25:43Speaker 00

  So the expectations have never been higher.

• 25:45Rayna Greenberg?

  Higher.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  They're unprecedented. What we would want from one person, it's a really tall order for a party of two. So that's the first thing. I don't know that I would say it's a problem, but I do think, yes, there is a major challenge that is, I think, unrealistic when you want one person to give you what normally an entire village should provide.

• 26:05Rayna Greenberg?

  Sure, it's, you know, it's be my best friend and my confidant, but, you know, fuck me like a porn star and, you know, be the most fun person to go out with, but also to stay in with and...

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Or I've also been waiting for you for so long and now that I met you, I will never again feel depressed, I will never feel lonely, I will never feel misunderstood, I will never feel invisible because I feel all these things with you and now it is upon you to make sure that I never have to feel those negative, those bad, sad feelings again. So you have that. Mating in captivity, by the way, the first book I wrote, was about people who would come into my office and say, "We love each other very much, we have no sex." And it was an exploration of what is the relationship between love and desire. That led me to, you know, think, look, affairs happen for a multitude of reasons. I wanted to write Rethinking Infidelity because I wanted to see what happens when desire goes outside.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  And there is a whole range of things that have to do with issues in the relationship. Number one is loneliness. People feel lonely, disconnected, they don't communicate, it's been months, years that they haven't had a glance from each other. That will make you vulnerable to the kindness of strangers, period. But then there is sexlessness, violence, resentment, disconnects of all sorts. And then there is a whole other group of people, which are the people that used to say to me, "I do love my partner, I have no intention of going anywhere else." And that's when I started to see, it's too easy to think that this only happens on the basis of all these negative sentiments,

• 27:42Speaker 00

  but that there is also a certain way in which infidelity happens even in good couples and in people who consider themselves rather satisfied in their relationships. And then why? And that got really encapsulated in this sentence that traveled with me throughout the 10 years that I've been working with couples with infidelity before I wrote the book. And it was, "I didn't go outside because I wanted to find another person. I went outside because I wanted to find another self." All the parts of myself that I had lost after I got pregnant, after my mother died, after I was the one working here for years and my partner couldn't get a job, after I hardened, you know, it's the loss and the longing.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  I didn't want to leave my partner behind. I wanted to leave the person that I myself had become. And this idea made me then say infidelity is about betrayal and violation and deception and lies, but it is also about longing and loss and yearning of the lives unlived.

• 28:47Rayna Greenberg?

  I, I think that's really profound and I, I lived with somebody when I, my first boyfriend in New York, I lived with him and he used to cheat on me just for fun, you know, just because he felt like it.

• 28:56Speaker 00

  You knew it?

• 28:58Rayna Greenberg?

  I felt like there was, he was always sort of like a step outside of the relationship. I felt like I can't put my finger on why he doesn't feel like a hundred percent a partner. But I felt like between the two of us, we had sex every day, we had fun together, we had a nice life, we did a lot of really fun things. He just felt like fucking other people. He didn't want to not be with me. He just felt like lying to me and sleeping with other people because I think, like you said, outside of the relationship, he was a different person. He got to be free of expectations of a relationship with other people. And then all of those feelings of like, am I good enough? Am I pretty enough? I didn't even think about those things as I was like, I do feel like I'm good enough for him.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Maybe he asked himself those questions.

• 29:36Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe he did.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  Maybe he needed constant affirmation so that anything female that moved needed to be a possibility of affirming his masculinity and his ego, not just, you know.

• 29:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 00

  You do want to say to people that when you choose somebody, you do let, you know, every choice is a loss. That is true too. You do let go of others. I would not put this guy in the category of longing and loss. Because you, you are new together, you are physical with each other every day. And, and yet there is a sense in which he doesn't want any restriction. He wants to continue to be and in a relationship and free as if he was totally on his own. And that is a different dance. That's one where you kind of say, you know, I mean, I would first of all say, explain this one to me. What's it up for you?

• 30:27Rayna Greenberg?

  It didn't feel deeper to me than that. I just felt like you're not a nice person. I'm not interested in being with you. We said on the show recently, I think I did, stop analyzing the behavior of shitty people. To me, I didn't need to analyze the behavior. You're a liar and you're a cheater and you're just fucking other people for sport. So it didn't feel that much deeper to me than that. And we broke up and I didn't really think about it again.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Good.

• 30:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, I think we've all been touched by infidelity, like you said, and do you see couples come back from it and end up healthier on the other side? I mean, obviously there's work that needs to be done there, but.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  I typically would divide it in three outcomes. I used to see people, we know, if they come to me rather than the lawyer, they generally want to discuss something. They at least want to consider the possibility of staying together. What are they going to do with it? Is it salvageable? You know, what is this about? My first thing is to say, let's explore the meaning of this. It's the meaning of it that will tell you if the couple has a life afterwards and what kind of life. Not the data, the facts. Did you do it standing, sleeping, you know? That kind of stuff, that the sordid details that people want to mine for that don't really help you understand. What does this infidelity say about this relationship and do to this relationship?

• 31:43Speaker 00

  There are people who split. There are people who stay together, but they are not at the bone in a marital cell forever. Every time one of them is five minutes late, they remind each other. You know, I can never count on you. I can never rely on you. I can never trust you because this happened and this happened. And there is no healing whatsoever. Then there are people who say, this was a terrible crisis. We have a bigger life to live. We have family. We have kids. We have careers. We have parents. We have extended family. You know, we put this aside and they never talk about it again. And then you have people who say, "What is the message in the bottle? What is this telling us? Where did we become complacent? Where did we stop paying attention to each other? Where haven't we gone on a date since the kids were born?

• 32:28Speaker 00

  God knows what? Where have you not looked at me and complimented me? Where have we not touched each other and caressed each other and just said, 'I see you'? We allowed this to happen. We created such a gap in between. And they see this and they say, "Or, you know, you made me feel undesirable. Or you rejected me constantly. Or I don't want to just, you know, be told, 'Not tonight, not tonight, not tonight' for years on end. We're not talking weeks and..." So this is the couples that I have most to do with. Because something happened in the relationship. This became an expression. The work you do is, what does the relationship need at this point? How do you reconnect with each other? What have you not told each other?

• 33:12Speaker 00

  Look, there's so many variations. And that's the stuff you don't see in the magazines. You know, the person who discovers a history of sexual abuse. And family is not the place where you heal. Family is the place where you were hurt. Goes outside, meets someone, experiences herself sexually for the first time. Comes home, wants to be with the partner, but couldn't do it with the partner. That is a story I have heard more than once. Older people, different stories here, but probably some of the parents of the people who listen to us today. Where one person is no longer completely present. And the other person goes to visit them every day. But in order to stay alive, they need to connect to someone.

• 33:57Speaker 00

  You can't imagine the amount of people that have come to me at the end of a talk to ask, "Is this also considered infidelity?" You know, and that's when you say, "It is not black and white. It is not good and bad. It is not the saint and the perpetrator and the victim, if you want." It's a little more complicated. And since it happens in so many of our families, we have got to make room for these nuances and not just go quick for the judgment. In every direction, in every direction. Including, for the many young women who listen to us today, the biggest one is taking him back, taking her back, taking them back.

• 34:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I think that we grow up thinking it's a very black and white thing, or at least I did. You know, cheating is bad, cheaters are terrible, and women, especially the take cheaters back, how could you do something like that? Why are you so weak? And it's not like that at all, and it's such a gray area on both sides. And there's a million reasons why you would cheat, and there's a million reasons why you would take somebody back. And it's so layered and so deep, and I just, I don't think of cheating and taking somebody back as being this like black and white thing. It's so, so, so deep. And even like, what is cheating?

• 35:10Speaker 00

  But Rena, what if we changed the words? And what you call the cheater is actually a person who has felt for years now that you were too busy to pay her, him, them any attention.

• 35:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  And now, suddenly, you woke up.

• 35:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  We always reference Sex and the City, we can't help it, but they were the first time, the movie was the first time, I feel like, something I watched explored cheating in that way, where it was, like, they said the line, well, you broke a vow too, you know? Like, I, we hadn't seen that, really. We had seen a lot of black and white cheating, but I feel like they were the first to really tackle it, and like, why this happened, why Steve felt neglected in the marriage, why she had violated their vows as well. And I just, and the friends were rallying around her and like, reflect on yourself, Miranda, and forgive him, as opposed to like, fuck him, he's a cheater, once a cheater, always a cheater. So, that was the first time I, it shifted my mind a little bit.

• 36:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 36:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And, you know, I know it's a fictional show and movie, but I think that helped us all see it.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  No. It basically said, there is one person who's responsible for the affair, or the infidelity or the cheating, but there's two people who may be responsible for the degradation of the relationship.

• 36:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  And if you let this thing fall so dry and so desert, you need to own that too. It's so easy to instantly put yourself in the role of the victim of a cheater. And that's why the language is a very, you know, if instead of calling that person the cheater, you call that person the person who finally said, I can't accept this anymore, I can't live like, I can't be ignored, rejected. You know, unseen, days on end, years on end. And then, suddenly, the other person wakes up because they now could feel the loss.

• 37:00Rayna Greenberg?

  Absolutely. I mean, why should, why should you be in a sexless marriage? If somebody won't sleep with you for years on end, and won't touch you, and won't notice you, and won't consider you.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Or ask you, "How are you?"

• 37:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 00

  Or ask you, "How was your day?" Or wonder, "Do you need anything?" Or help you when they see you running around trying to do five things at the same time. All of that.

• 37:21Rayna Greenberg?

  All of that's a sin.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  It's not only the sex. It's every element of emotional deprivation.

• 37:26Rayna Greenberg?

  So, when somebody does cheat, and you're considering, if you're the one that's been cheated on, and you're thinking, "Do I, can I, can I take this person back?" Are there things that you, you said something in the book where you said, you know, "I tell people that their current marriage is over, and that they are gonna embark on a new marriage with that same person." And I thought that was really interesting. So, how can we begin to forgive somebody? And do we forgive somebody?

• 37:50Speaker 00

  I mean, look, there's a difference if you're two years together or 20 years together, first of all. There's a difference if there's a family involved or not. You, you're that guy who's like, you know, you left right on time, and if not, even sooner.

• 38:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  It's like, there's nothing to talk about. The guy is not just the fact that he's cheating, it's also that he cannot really be in an intimate relationship with you. It's not what they do outside, it's what they're not doing inside. So, the next thing is, you know, I think the first thing is the distinction. At first, when I find out that I've been lied to, that I've been betrayed, that there's been a secret, etc., the first thing I need is an acknowledgement that this is true. You have to acknowledge the facts. If you have a person who starts to deny it, or who gaslights you, starts to think, "You invented it, oh, it's because of what happened at home, it's because your father cheated on you, and so now you see it," you know, and starts to twist your mind around, that's a whole other story.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  So, the first thing, when somebody has hurt someone, is that someone acknowledges it, owns it, feels remorse for it, and feels guilty. No matter what reasons they had. If, that's the starting point. Every hurt is, "I, I did that, and I own, and I see, you know, you haven't slept, you haven't eaten, I see that, I own it." So, take responsibility. The second step is, now, can we talk about why this has happened as well? And that's a conversation of the two of us. What did, why did this happen? What's the meaning of this story? And then you sit and you say, what is in our relationship? Does our relationship have enough pulp still left? That we can kind of, you know, still squeeze some juice out of this?

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Or do we look at each other and we like, you know, there is nothing to resurrect? And that's the story. The story is not just, do you take that person back? It's not what, how is that partner to you? For example, I've seen stories, I mean, it's multiple. You know, while the guy, in this case, it's a man, you know, has a relationship for about two years or so with another woman, he's taking care of her dying mother. He's taking care of her alcoholic brother. I mean, he, he is the caregiver. And we find out a lot of why the affair was so interesting for him. But the fact was, it wasn't so simple to say, what an asshole. What a jerk, what a piece of shit.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  Because you've got different things happening all at the same time. And I think when people manage to still hold on to the good parts of the person, there is a relationship that can be resurrected. When all they see is just this, it's very hard. When it's repeat offender, it's very hard.

• 40:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  For me, it would be so big on a lie. You know, I think that it feels different than you got drunk at this bachelor party and you slept with somebody else as opposed to like, you're having a full blown affair and you're texting when I'm making you dinner with another woman and you're lying to my face every day. Like, can a person who lies to your face every day change? Or, you know, like, I, I feel like that's where you can't shake the like, you lied to me and betrayed me. That's who you are as a person. I guess that's how my mind would work. And like, I've always said this, you know, it's, it feel, it would feel so different than having another full blown relationship as opposed to like, You slept with somebody, you know, while we weren't doing great when you were out of

• 41:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  town, you know, those feel so vastly different to me. And I'm sure that's just what's so hard to get over. I'm like, you're a sociopath, you know, you, you, you just looked me in the face and lied to me for two years or whatever it is.

• 41:30Rayna Greenberg?

  So maybe some of it's like holding up a mirror, not to you, but to somebody and saying like, what did you do while I was doing that? Did you make me dinner? Like, were you sleeping with me? Did you acknowledge?

• 41:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  For sure, for sure. Right. Yeah. It's a hundred percent. There's two different stories there. There's like, I was being a great partner and I was not.

• 41:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Right. I think you're coming from that perspective. I was being a great partner and you fucking lied to me every day.

• 41:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  And I don't have this situation to speak on. So I, you know, I can't speak on it. So I'm just kind of, that's, I always think about that though. Like the line is the cardinal sin to me.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  The one thing I can say to you is that whatever people think they will do and feel is not necessarily what happens to them.

• 42:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  A hundred percent agree. Yeah.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  Because it happens in a context. And when that happens, you may be that person that says this, I cannot, every day, I'm going to sit in front of you and I'm going to wonder if you're texting somebody else underneath the table, if when you go to the bathroom, you're actually going to the bathroom, et cetera. And other people will say, we have a whole life and I don't want to lose that life. And they will also ask about the phone and everything. They will wonder if you went to that restaurant when they drive by it. They will wonder if, you know, if, if your partner took that person to the one place that was the most special place of you and that they trampled to the most sacred things that you shared together, et cetera. And yet, it's an extraordinary thing. People

• 42:50Speaker 00

  overcome that crisis. People reconnect. Part of my work was to go back to people I had seen two, five, 10 years later and ask them, what happened to you? What happened to your relationships? Because most of the time, the therapist kind of doesn't stay in the long run of that. And it was very hopeful to see betrayals happen in relationships, breaches of trust happen. There's all kinds of lies. For some people, this is a possible lie. For the other is the fact that you took whatever money we had and you gave it to your sister when we had nothing ourselves and you knew that she was never going to give it back. How could you deplete us in this way? So it, this dynamic, the lies, there's

• 43:33Speaker 00

  variations thereof. And I don't think there is a right answer. You know your integrity. You know what you can tolerate. But all I can say is when it happens, it happens in a context. And it is for some people very clear. They know exactly, I'm out, I'm gone. Others, I have no choice. I stay. I have no job. Where am I going? I have a child with disability. Where am I going? I mean, and then you have others who are saying, "Watch me. Watch me." And, and, and now I'm gonna make you work for this relationship.

• 44:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  I've seen that. I've seen, you know, I know of a couple, they're married with, with children, but he, he cheated and I just felt, I think there are a lot, but it's been years, but I think she really made him pay for it. And I, but that's, do you have any, I mean, this is such a loaded question, but how do you trust again? I mean, everybody's got to be so different. I mean, we're all wired differently.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Trust is an active, you know, trust is a leap of faith. Trust is, is an active, as Rachel Buttsman says it beautifully, it's an active engagement with the unknown.

• 44:39Speaker 00

  If you need to know, you're not trusting. So if I need to know where you're going and when you're coming back and how you're gonna go from here to there, et cetera, et cetera, I'm, I'm surveilling you. That is not trust.

• 44:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a choice, you're saying, like you have to choose?

• 44:52Speaker 00

  Like, I have to choose? What is it that I need to trust? I don't just need to trust that you're not gonna do this again. That's one thing, but what I really need to trust is that you're thinking of me. What I need to trust is that you actually care about me. An infidelity is, is, is a loss of value. I thought I mattered and you made me feel like I mattered nothing. How could you forget? You were like sitting in that hotel and I didn't exist anymore. Your whole life disappeared when you would be in that hotel room. Did you not think about us? Did you not think about the children? Did you not think about what that would do to me? That's the, you know?

• 45:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  I feel like I'm gonna cry. I just feel like so many people are gonna listen to this in their car and be like, "That's how I felt."

• 45:37Speaker 00

  Yes, and I mean, I cry, I cry with the people. I, I, I feel it when they say it. It's, I mean, I can cry when I say it because this is the hurt. The fact that you're not gonna do it again. So, you know, you can have somebody who's never gonna do it again. That doesn't mean they're gonna touch you, talk to you, care about you, support you. This is, so what, they don't do it again.

• 46:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  They sit there like this. You wanna log? Or you wanna partner? Who really, so the trust is feeling that I am valued again, that you think of me. It's the many, many little things you do that remind me that I'm on your mind. We're driving, we're going past the place. You see that face I have. I don't have to ask you, and you say, "No, I didn't come here." And then my nervous system relaxes. I know, you know, that I know, that you know. You know that I think, and you go ahead of me. And I call that to be the vigilante of the relationship. You know, where you care about the relationship and you're making sure to protect the relationship.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  And that's an active job for a long time. I give it two years.

• 46:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Two years? On the other person, on the, on the cheater to, to, to.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  And on, and on the trust membrane to come back.

• 46:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, I love that you said that. It's not just, "I was the person who was cheated on, I have to forgive you." It's that you have to help me trust you again.

• 47:04Speaker 00

  And I'll tell you another part about the trust. There's another big one that I, I, I want, because you were saying, you know, I can imagine listening to this and people listening. When this happens and my whole relationship, my whole reality, sorry, is fractured. Like, I can't think, is this real? Is the ground I stand on real? Is what I thought we had what we had? Is where we were there, were we really there? Or were you somewhere? And I ask you questions and I ask you questions and often we ask it a multitude of times because we're trying to piece back the reality. It's unbearable to the person who has to answer, no, I didn't, I've told you already. And then I say to the person who did go outside, I say, look, your partner isn't doing this to annoy you.

• 47:47Speaker 00

  Your partner is doing this because they just can't keep reality in their hand. It's falling through their fingers. And so the mind makes them repeat it again and again and again. If you can answer, not from a place of, you know, it's been six months and you, you know, that kind of thing, but just simply you say, you're, you're, you're having an attack again, right? You're getting that thing again. And you just answer, that builds trust.

• 48:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Just gonna take another quick break and we will get back into it. Okay. And it is coat season, everybody. If you are not watching on YouTube, get over there to see us all bundled up in our Columbia Amaze Puff jackets. So we are so obsessed with these and can't wait to be in the cold weather to wear them. Just gonna pack these up and head to the East Coast. But we both have the Amaze Puff Long Hooded Jacket. Mine is in dark stone and Raina's is in black and we love how warm and cozy and comfortable they are. And I just love how a long jacket looks in general. It's like so chic.

• 48:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, and we do love the long, but the Amaze Puff Coat also comes in a short and medium length as well. And they have 11 colorways, so you can pick your perfect look. And I love the soft material and the thumb holes, I love a thumb hole. And they're weather resistant. And if you can't tell, they are down jackets. So again, super warm, like wearing a hug.

• 49:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, I'm not a hugger, but I love the way this jacket feels, so maybe I'm turning a corner.

• 49:11Rayna Greenberg?

  She hugs now.

• 49:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Only in my Amaze Puff.

• 49:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Thanks, Columbia. So you guys head to columbia.com to get your hands on an Amaze Puff Jacket. They are tough on cold, soft on you. Okay. And this show is brought to you by BetterHelp. With the holidays coming up, I can't recommend therapy more.

• 49:31Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, whatever you want to address, whether it's sibling drama, I think a lot of people start to get really in their head about where they are in life when they go home for the holidays or you're in a relationship, what's your career look like. I mean, any way you could just talk to somebody and really just sort out how you're feeling, what are your goals. It's really helpful to just be able to talk to a therapist. And BetterHelp therapists work according to strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the US. They have a therapist match commitment, so they do the initial matching work for you to focus on the type of therapy goals that you have. So you'll tell them what you're looking for in terms of therapy and whether you want to deal with anxiety or drawing better boundaries or whatever it is in your life you want to address. There's a short questionnaire and they'll help you identify a therapist for you.

• 50:12Rayna Greenberg?

  And they have over 30,000 therapists. BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of 5. So can't recommend it enough. If you are ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start the journey. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/gge. That's betterhelp, H E L P, dot com slash G G.

• 50:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, and by now you have probably heard of Bilt where you could earn points on your monthly rent payment. But did you know they make it possible for you to get more outside of your home too? So I have just been seeing this in more places. A lot of times at workout studios, I see it. So I'd love to see that people support Bilt and they use Bilt. So by paying your rent through Bilt, you can earn flexible points that can be redeemed towards hundreds of hotels and airlines, a future rent payment, your next Lyft ride home and more. Like I mentioned, I've been seeing it in all these different workout studios. But it doesn't stop there. Bilt is about making your entire neighborhood more rewarding. You can dine out at your favorite local restaurants and earn additional points, get VIP treatment at certain fitness studios and enjoy exclusive experiences just for Bilt members every month. Bilt is turning a monthly expense into an opportunity to earn rewards and discover the

• 51:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  best your neighborhood has to offer. Your rent is finally working for you. I mean, this is what I'm saying. It's all around my neighborhood.

• 51:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Literally everywhere.

• 51:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So you can earn points on rent and around your neighborhood, wherever you call home, by going to joinbilt.com/gge. That's J O I N B I L T dot com slash G G E. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you.

• 51:44Rayna Greenberg?

  And I I'm sure that's a little bit more black and white, but what do you say to a person that says, I've been cheated on and I love my partner and I I can't let it go. I can't stop bringing this up. Every time we drive past this hotel, this restaurant, every time they're five minutes late, like, I really want to be with him. I can't let it go. I'm so angry.

• 52:00Speaker 00

  There's a lot of things you say. The first thing is, I mean, this is not in order here, but one is, tell me more about the anger. Is this just vis a vis him or her? Is this the first time? Do you have a history with this? Did this happen in your family? What fuels that level of anger? Is it because you have a partner who has never truly apologized and owned it? There is that. That is often one of the main things that maintains the anger on the other side is on some fundamental level, I don't really feel like you get it.

• 52:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Right.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  You you apologize, but it's like you and you still feel entitled to it type thing, type, you know, so it's what fuels it, what holds it alive like that. But I have had situations where a person has done all the right things and the partner still can't let go. And sometimes, by the way, this is really a big piece of the hidden secrets of couples, is because I picked you because I thought you wouldn't do this.

• 52:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Hmm. I keep making this sound like I feel like I'm Michael Bubaro in The Daily. I'm like, mm, yeah, sorry, I'm gonna take it down a notch. Everything's just so profound. Sorry, keep going. I'm sorry I derailed you.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  You know, that thing, it's like, I didn't marry the guy or choose the guy or choose the woman that I really wanted to be with. This could be two men having the same conversation.

• 53:22Rayna Greenberg?

  For sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  You know, I chose you because I thought you were the safe choice and you betrayed the private deal I made with myself.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  When you pick a partner, you often also have a deal that you make with yourself. And what sometimes makes it very hard for some people to forgive is actually less about what you did to me as about how mad I am at myself that I misjudged. And there's a narcissistic piece in that. And so you have people who have done everything, three, four years of all the making amends necessary. And at some point, they say, that person is not letting the relationship be rebuilt, and they end up leaving.

• 54:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Do you say to people sometimes, like, neither of you are happy. You're not happy. You're never gonna let this go. It's time to walk away.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  I don't say it like this because I don't think that I am the one who will measure happiness. And I don't think that happiness is really what all of this has to do with. But I will sometimes say, you know, resentment sometimes is like swallowing poison and waiting for the other person to die.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  You are in a prison here together. Is that how you wanna keep it going?

• 54:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  I can't help you with that.

• 54:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then, I mean, we've had so many incredible therapists on the show. A lot of it is just like, maybe this was never a match to begin with, you know? Like, when we talked to Ian of like, maybe these people didn't pick each other in the right way to begin with. And there is no repairing this relationship. Sometimes I've listened to your podcast.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Yes. Just remind me of an episode. This is an incredible episode on where should we begin? The guy and the woman each had an affair with each other. They are affair partners.

• 55:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, okay.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  They then decide to marry. They then have children. He also forces her to have a couple of abortions. He then has affairs on her.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  And she, we become clear, there is a part of her that is determined to stay with him because somewhere she can't accept that she told her father fuck off, I know what I'm doing and she made a mistake.

• 55:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 55:44Speaker 00

  And at the end of the episode, I literally say to them, I think you have a better chance at being friends, but as a couple, I don't see it.

• 55:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that example of, it ties back into obviously like ego and your own self of holding on to a relationship to prove something to someone, like your father or your friends or.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  I mean, you're talking about matches and why we pick people. Sometimes you pick people not because of the person you pick, but because of another person that you're saying something else to.

• 56:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Or we know people that are in relationships, it's like everybody hates the partner and it's like.

• 56:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Us against the world. They have like us, you know, like we're in this together and there's.

• 56:25Rayna Greenberg?

  You guys are all wrong about him and I'm right and you're so, you've like, you're too pot committed to ever back down at that point.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  What is the thing that has reached you in what we just described? I'm very curious where it landed on each of you.

• 56:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Probably the, you beat yourself up because you thought this person was different and you made a decision. So, and the writer knows this about me, like I'm just part of myself. And so when I feel like I made a mistake or I feel like I didn't do something right, that's really.

• 56:56Speaker 00

  You would be more angry at yourself than at the partner who betrays you.

• 56:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. I mean, I guess, the betrayal too, but there's, I just, that really spoke to me because I hadn't totally thought about that of, I picked you because I thought you were different, because I thought you would be the person who was always going to love me and not betray me. And so like the anger at yourself too of like, how did I, how did I go so wrong here? I guess that spoke to me the most.

• 57:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, well, one of the things in your book, State of Affairs, that spoke to me the most that you even hammered home more today was that just how un-black and white this is. Outside of my ex, who just cheated on me for sport and for fun, there's so many layers to why we cheat and why we take people back and that there's two people in every relationship. And so much about reframing the word cheater and looking at why did they do these things. Ash and I always say we're not apologists for cheaters. But this idea of like-

• 57:50Speaker 00

  Do I need to make that clear as well?

• 57:52Rayna Greenberg?

  No, you made it really-

• 57:53Speaker 00

  I wanted to bring the complexity out, but I am the last one to promote, to encourage, to be very, very clear on that.

• 58:01Rayna Greenberg?

  It did not feel like that. It's just this idea that there's two of you in this relationship and everyone is contributing in a certain way. Maybe one person cheats, but the other person might not have acknowledged you, had sex with you, told you they're proud of you for years. And so it's a very layered thing. And I think we think of cheaters as being terrible, and it's not always that.

• 58:19Speaker 00

  And you don't cheat for sex, by the way. This is the other thing. It's very important to, you know, look, I tend to spend more time with people who have been together for a while. Now, I'm not talking about the young, one-year-and-a-half relationship. But when people have been together, even if they want the sex, what they want is someone who finds me beautiful, who is interested in me, who enjoys touching me, who isn't just coming in and out and not ever, ever wondering about my pleasure, who enjoys my experience. It's someone who makes me feel important, special, not lonely. It's that and through the sex. But the sex is the language for those feelings. It's not that in and of itself.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  For other people, it's an unencumbered sex, a sex that is free of pain or free of obligation or free of anxiety. But it is always wrapped with something. Your guy, his issue is that he has zero regard for other people that

• 59:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  guy will use as a model, you know, go grow up and then come back and have a relationship.

• 59:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And we say that sometimes, too, you know, like, we have, we do have a lot of younger listeners. And sometimes it's, the, the simple answer is that you guys are 21, you know what I mean? So, no, no one's ready for commitment. I, I did want to-

• 59:37Speaker 00

  But you can't be ready for love at 21.

• 59:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, for sure.

• 59:39Speaker 00

  Love is once in commitments and another-

• 59:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  But sometimes it can just be as simple as, as that of this person needs to grow up. That just because they cheated when they were 19 or 20. I cheated when I was 18 or 19 years old. I'm not like, once a cheater, always a cheater. But I want to just, we don't have you much longer, but you brought up this thing, and I don't know if there's a short answer to this, but Rain and I have discussed this so many times and just what we talked about the beginning of like, the quote unquote unrealistic expectations, like wanting all this from a partner. Is that just kind of self-talk and internal work and discussions with ourself? And like, that, that isn't really realistic? I mean, how do you combat that because it isn't realistic?

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  It's a cultural thing. So it, you can't address big cultural things just alone. You know, we have moved from talking about our partners as best friends, which to me was always strange.

• 1:00:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thank you, Esther. Go off.

• 1:00:33Speaker 00

  People have best friends.

• 1:00:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Today, I'm marrying my best friend. My best friend is right here. She's like, what?

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  You have best friends. Your partner is your partner. But I understood that there was a cultural shift. I didn't come from that. But now it becomes, I'm marrying my soulmate. And you know, for most of history, a soulmate and the one and only that was God. It wasn't a person. This notion that a person will become the place where you're going to experience ecstasy and wholeness and meaning and transcendence, stuff that people looked for in the realm of the divine, now becomes romantic love. So, this is where we are, and I just want, first of all, this is a model. This is not true. This hasn't always been this way, and this is not this way, a few borders further. Just we get that. Now, from that point on, understand something.

• 1:01:20Speaker 00

  Have best friends. Have a community. What sustains a couple is the people- People around it, as much as the people that and what happens between them, have good relationships with other people who are meaningful, to whom you can talk about things that you can't always talk to with your partner. Because that's how it is. And if you have those people and you don't just use them to complain about your partner, but to amplify, to complete the relationship, and especially for the dudes, because they're the ones who lose their friends more than the girls.

• 1:01:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yep.

• 1:01:50Speaker 00

  And they become isolated and their girls are like, the woman is the primary person, the minister of social affairs, basically, that connects them. Too many different dynamic on that one. But stay in touch with your close friends from before. I ask so many people, how often do you see your friends and alone? Not always as a couple, alone.

• 1:02:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  You have relationships with these people, some of them from college, some of them from school, from way back when. Keep that, it's very, very important. That's the beginning, because that's an easy thing to do. And don't think that if your partner wants to go see somebody, it means you're not enough. Once you go with the, you're not enough, I should be everything for you, you have swallowed the model whole and the model will eat you up alive.

• 1:02:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  I love that, and I'll say one last thing, my parents have been married for forty years. We really think they're like the anomaly and their secret, when people ask, is that they have separate lives outside of each other and so many other relationships outside of each other. And they're just apart, doing their own things.

• 1:02:54Speaker 00

  And what is the the not that they have as well? Because that that is a model that I value very much.

• 1:03:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, they're they're together a lot too. I mean, they're, we have our family, we're a really close family. They do travel together and they enjoy the same things.

• 1:03:05Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:03:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  But they have separate.

• 1:03:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, they have a small, a V diagram in which there's a strong core and then big circles of individuality. And those often are relationships that sustain. But sustain is one thing, forty years is nice, but longevity is not the only marker of success. It's that they're alive.

• 1:03:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're the best.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  They're alive. What you want in a relationship is energy and a life, unless you don't just want it to not be dead.

• 1:03:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're alive. They are just the best.

• 1:03:34Speaker 00

  That's right.

• 1:03:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, it's what we've hammered home on this show for three and a half years and you've hammered home for us also, which is just to have a life that you're excited about outside your partner and your partner will complement those things. And that's a great place to start.

• 1:03:47Speaker 00

  If you measure that and you see there's something missing in my relationship and every time you go somewhere else, it's because you think it's missing, you're really, you're doing yourself a real disservice. So a lot of the, you know, I'm doing couples therapy almost 40 years. I know it's about helping people reconnect with the sources of meaning and joy that are important in their lives that are away from the partner so that when you come back, you've got something to tell, you've got energy to bring into the relationship. Otherwise, people sit there with each other. Have you sat in restaurants?

• 1:04:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  We watch those couples all the time.

• 1:04:21Rayna Greenberg?

  That's all I do. I will sit in a restaurant with Ashley and just be like, look at that couple, look at that couple.

• 1:04:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  And they don't have anything to talk about because they didn't do anything outside of each other. You know?

• 1:04:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Absolutely.

• 1:04:30Speaker 00

  And then I watch them at lunch and I see, you know, when people, when we used to still have lunch and meetings and stuff, and you would see people sitting across each other, well dressed and alive and energized and engaged with each other. And I always would ask myself, and which one of them is here with their partner?

• 1:04:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Uh huh.

• 1:04:47Speaker 00

  Very few.

• 1:04:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, sure.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  And then, you know.

• 1:04:51Rayna Greenberg?

  This feels like a good time to tell people where to find your podcasts, your books.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  estherperel.com, the podcasts, estherperel.com/podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere where you listen to your podcasts.

• 1:05:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Well, I hope you guys enjoyed this re-release and this unearthed video that I found for you. And I mean, it's just, you know, it was incredible to re-watch and re-listen for us as well. So we hope you guys enjoyed it.

• 1:05:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes. Congrats to you.

• 1:05:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, nice.

• 1:05:19Rayna Greenberg?

  And if you guys are interested in more Esther Perel official is her Instagram, State of Affairs, and Made in Captivity are two of her books. They're both phenomenal. And her podcast, Where Should We Begin?, is everywhere you find podcasts. So lots of ways to access my mom, Esther Perel.

• 1:05:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Mother. She is mother.

• 1:05:38Rayna Greenberg?

  She's my mother.

• 1:05:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  And girlsgottaeat.com. Get those tickets for our two and two only holiday shows in New York and LA in December. Girlsgottoeatpodcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am Ash Hess. I'm not changing my name.

• 1:05:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Is he changing his name?

• 1:05:55Rayna Greenberg?

  What if he hyphenated his name?

• 1:05:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  He doesn't like that joke.

• 1:06:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, yeah, it was like when you introduced us, is it like the Hasseltimes?

• 1:06:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Mr. and Mrs. Hasseltimes.

• 1:06:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  Azul's parents. Again, I'm Ash Hass, Raina is Rayna Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube and share this episode with a friend. And we will see you Thursday. I won't be here. Raina's gonna be guest host.

• 1:06:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, I am.

• 1:06:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it's gonna be a super fun episode of the snack. Don't like it too much, you guys, but...

• 1:06:20Rayna Greenberg?

  But it'll be a friend of ours. It'll be a repeat guest.

• 1:06:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, it'll be great. So we'll see you there.

• 1:06:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Have a good week, guys.

• 1:06:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Bye.