#740 The Ultimate Bitcoin vs. Gold Debate w/ Peter Schiff & Peter McCormack

Peter Schiff is the Chief Economist & Global Strategist at EuroPacific Capital. Peter McCormack is the host of the popular Bitcoin podcast "What Bitcoin DId". This is a very special episode with Peter Schiff and Peter McCormick in the same studio together. In this conversation, we discuss the economy and inflation with Peter Schiff. Then Peter McCormack joins the show and we discuss Gold vs. Bitcoin, Bitcoin backed loans, Store of value, and the digital economy. If you enjoyed this conversation, subscribe to my Youtube channel and watch "The Best Business Show" live every weekday from 11am-1pm EST. ======================= Nasdaq-listed BTCS was the first US-public company to secure today’s top layer one protocols. Recently, BTCS launched the beta version of its digital asset analytics dashboard! From across multiple exchanges, the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard lets you evaluate your entire portfolio’s performance with plans to add year-end reports and yield earning on your crypto through linking to staking pools. Test out the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard today at BTCS.com. ======================= Gemini is a leading regulated cryptocurrency exchange, wallet, and custodian that makes it simple and secure to buy, sell, store, and earn bitcoin, ether, and over 40 other cryptocurrencies. Offering industry-leading security, insurance and uptime, Gemini is the go-to trusted platform for beginner and sophisticated investors alike. Open a free account in under 3 minutes at gemini.com/pomp and get $20 of bitcoin after you trade $100 or more within 30 days. ======================= LMAX Digital - the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading & custodial services - offers clients a regulated, transparent and secure trading environment, together with the deepest pool of crypto liquidity. LMAX Digital is also a primary price discovery venue, streaming real-time market data to the industry’s leading analytics platforms. LMAX Digital - secure, liquid, trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Peter Schiff is the Chief Economist and Global Strategist at Euro Pacific Capital. Peter McCormick is the host of the popular Bitcoin podcast, What Bitcoin Did. In this conversation, we discuss Bitcoin, gold, macroeconomics, utility, store value, social security, and much, much more. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors. First up is NASDAQ-listed BTCS. It's the first US public company to secure many of the top Layer 1 protocols. This quarter, BTCS just launched the beta version of a new digital

• 0:45Anthony Pompliano?

  asset analytics dashboard. From across multiple exchanges, the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard lets you evaluate your entire portfolio's performance with plans to enable year-end reports and yield earning on your crypto by linking to BTCS staking pools. This groundbreaking dashboard is currently in beta mode. Test out the BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard now by visiting btcs.com. Again, go to btcs.com today to check out that brand-new BTCS Data Analytics Dashboard. Let me know what you think once you're there to check it out. Next up is Gemini. Gemini is a leading regulated cryptocurrency exchange, a wallet and custodian that makes it simple and secure to buy, sell, store, and earn Bitcoin, Ether, and over

• 1:26Anthony Pompliano?

  40 other cryptocurrencies. They offer industry-leading security, insurance, and uptime. Gemini is the go-to trusted platform for beginner and sophisticated investors alike. You can open a free account in under 3 minutes at gemini.com/pomp and get $20 of Bitcoin after you trade $100 or more within 30 days. Again, Gemini, a leading regulated crypto exchange, wallet, and custodian, was founded by Cameron and Tyler Winklevols. They've done a fantastic job building a business. You can open a free account in under 3 minutes at gemini.com/pomp and you'll get $20 of Bitcoin after you trade $100 or more within the first 30 days. Last but not least is LMAX Digital, the number-one institutional crypto exchange. They offer clients the deepest pool of crypto liquidity on the planet, underscored by 100%.

• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Up time track record through volatility spikes. You may have never heard of LMAX Digital, but that's because you're not an institution. They don't service retail. LMAX Digital only serves institutional clients. They leverage LMAX Group's liquidity relationships and ultra-low latency technology. LMAX Digital is the market-leading solution for institutional crypto trading and custodial services. They feature a central limit order book that streams spot Bitcoin, Ether, Litecoin, Bitcoin Cash, and it's all paired with US Dollars, Euro, and Yen. LMAX Digital, they're secure, they're liquid, and they are trusted. Learn more at LMAXdigital.com/pomp. Again, LMAXdigital.com/pomp. All right, let's get in this episode with Peter, and Peter, I hope you guys enjoy it.

• 2:51Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:15Anthony Pompliano?

  I apologize for everything that's gonna happen today. We have Peter Schiff here in the studio. We've got Joe and John as well. Peter McCormick is on his way. He's stuck in traffic, but he'll be here shortly. Um, I don't really have much else to do. Let's just start. What are you doing in Miami?

• 3:29Speaker 02

  What was everybody doing in Miami?

• 3:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, other people are living here. Yeah, art Basel.

• 3:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why.

• 3:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Have you seen, have you bought any art yet?

• 3:36Speaker 02

  No, I said no one will take my gold bars for the art. They're lugging him around. You're getting heavy.

• 3:44Speaker 02

  No, I'm here, I want to buy some NFTs.

• 3:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Really?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Of course not.

• 3:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you really not?

• 3:51Speaker 02

  I have some Bitcoin art. I brought it with me.

• 3:53Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's right, it's right here. In fact, I put it, it's all over the table. It's just like real art, except that you can't see it, you can't touch it. It has no actual value, no real utility.

• 4:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you really?

• 4:05Speaker 02

  But I'll sell it to you.

• 4:06Anthony Pompliano?

  I have a serious question. Do you own any Bitcoin for real?

• 4:09Speaker 02

  No, well, I own some, I just can't get at it.

• 4:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Why?

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Well, I guess I don't have my password.

• 4:15Anthony Pompliano?

  You said, you realize that sounds ridiculous.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  No, yes, but I don't even have a full Bitcoin there. It's only like a third of a Bitcoin.

• 4:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  It's a good thing you didn't send me that hundred dollars to that wallet.

• 4:24Anthony Pompliano?

  So it's $20,000 for the Bitcoin?

• 4:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you know, that's the wallet you were supposed to send me a hundred dollars worth of Bitcoin to. You never did, which is just as well, because, you know, it's lost.

• 4:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. What, what would it take to get you to buy some Bitcoin?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Well, why would I buy Bitcoin though?

• 4:39Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, you didn't answer the question. What would it take to get you to buy some Bitcoin?

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Well, I

• 4:43Anthony Pompliano?

  How far would gold have to fall?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  If you gave me some money with the condition that I had to use it to buy Bitcoin, I guess I'd have to buy Bitcoin because I'm an honorable person. So if it was your money, I guess I would buy it. I don't want to buy with my own money. If and when Bitcoin passes gold's market cap, will you buy some? Well, A, I don't think it's ever gonna pass gold's market cap, but you know, that's a good starting point for a conversation. Because everybody always wants to look at the market cap of gold and just assume that Bitcoin is gonna take that market cap. But, you know, a good chunk of that market cap, probably half of it, has to do with gold's use in jewelry.

• 5:21Anthony Pompliano?

  No, wrong, wrong.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 5:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Seven percent.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  No, it's not.

• 5:25Anthony Pompliano?

  You want to bet? You want to bet?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  What percent, what percent of gold's market cap is held by investors?

• 5:32Anthony Pompliano?

  My guess, my guess is a pretty big percentage.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  No, it's about 20%. You know, so Bitcoin already almost has that market cap, right? Because it can't replace gold in industry. It can't replace gold in jewelry.

• 5:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Gold, gold market cap?

• 5:49Speaker 02

  It's about what, 13 trillion?

• 5:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, so according to this, hold on, according to this, distribution of gold demand worldwide by sector in 2020, this is

• 5:55Speaker 02

  That's demand. I'm talking about the actual

• 5:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on, it says jewelry is 36%, investment is 46%, central banks is 8%, and technology is 8%.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I'm talking about, but the market cap includes all the gold that's above ground.

• 6:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Right, that includes, you know, the gold in everybody's jewelry. There's a lot of gold that's, that's held in jewelry. That's a good chunk of the market cap. So Bitcoin can't take that market cap. You, you, you can't make any jewelry out of Bitcoin. I mean, I think that Bitcoin's market cap is already close to gold's when it comes to individual private ownership for investment purposes. I'm not counting central banks.

• 6:36Anthony Pompliano?

  So how much, how much do you think is investment demand for gold? 50%?

• 6:40Speaker 02

  I, no, I think about 20% of the, the above ground gold.

• 6:44Anthony Pompliano?

  That's part of the market. So it'd be like 2 trillion.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, two, two, yeah, two, two and a half trillion. And that's kind of close to the market cap for Bitcoin already.

• 6:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, that would be Bitcoin would have to double to get there.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  No, no, less than, but if you take all.

• 6:56Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin's at $1 trillion.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Right, all right, but if you take all the cryptos.

• 6:59Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Ether and all the rest of the crap.

• 7:01Anthony Pompliano?

  But those aren't trying to compete.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  Well, sure they are.

• 7:03Anthony Pompliano?

  With gold?

• 7:04Speaker 02

  No, with Bitcoin.

• 7:05Anthony Pompliano?

  No, they're not, they're trying to do other things.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  No, they're not, yeah, they're, they're competing with Bitcoin for people who want to gamble on crypto tokens.

• 7:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think that most people are buying Bitcoin because they're trying to gamble?

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Of course, they're buying Bitcoin because they think it's going to 100,000 or they think it's going to a million. That's why they're buying it.

• 7:22Anthony Pompliano?

  But how much of your portfolio is in stocks? Like 50%, 80%?

• 7:26Speaker 02

  My portfolio, well, my stock portfolio is all stocks.

• 7:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, no, no, but like your financial portfolio, what percentage is like just all equities in general?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Well, that's, well, I mean, if you exclude real estate that I own.

• 7:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 02

  And private businesses, if you look at like how my, you know.

• 7:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Like liquid portfolio?

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm mostly in stocks.

• 7:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  Vast majority of what I have is in common stocks.

• 7:49Anthony Pompliano?

  When you buy it, equity, you're buying it because you think that it's going to go up in value against the dollar?

• 7:53Speaker 02

  No, mostly I'm buying companies that I think are undervalued. They pay good dividends to me. I want to get out of paper. I don't want to own bonds because I think bonds are going to lose value.

• 8:06Anthony Pompliano?

  You sold them all.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't really sell my bonds because I never really owned any. I mean, I had, I had some foreign bonds, but I'm almost all in non-US equities. And a lot of those equities are mining companies and those are the, that part of my portfolio has not been performing well. Gold stocks have really gotten hit.

• 8:28Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, I want to give, I want to give you some softballs. I'm gonna let you do what you do best. Ready? First softball, they say inflation is 6.2%. They've been saying that it's transitory. We now have the retirement of the word transitory. Like literally, they should have held an award ceremony, put it in the Hall of Fame. It's retired. What do you think about them not wanting to use the word transitory anymore? Does that mean that it's permanent or does that mean that they just don't want to? Talk about it anymore.

• 8:50Speaker 02

  Well, I think they're tired of trying to obfuscate as to what they meant. I mean, I think initially, when they said transitory, they meant transitory. But then when it turned out not to be transitory, they had to kind of redefine the word and kind of, you know, to try to save face. Uh, but at this point, they've, they've twisted it into such a pretzel that I think they just want to walk away from it because they really looked ridiculous in the face of overwhelming evidence that inflation was not transitory, uh, to try to claim that it was. But I, I still think the methodology that we're using today to calculate inflation is deeply flawed. And when they contrast what's happening today to the 1970s,

• 9:34Speaker 02

  they never talk about the fact that the CPI that exists today is nothing like the one that existed back in the 1970s.

• 9:42Anthony Pompliano?

  And this is cost of living versus cost of, uh, goods?

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Yes. I mean, and it basically now it's the cost of surviving. I mean, by, by today's methodology, look, it doesn't matter if you're eating filet mignon or dog food. As long as you're eating, uh, then you got nothing to complain about, right? They, they don't really look at the quality, even though they claim to, uh, when they have substitution or hedonics, but

• 10:05Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a savage comment.

• 10:06Speaker 02

  The whole thing is great now, but if, if, if we were measuring prices today and we just use the same CPI that they used back then, I think the inflation in 2021 was as bad, if not worse than any single year of the 1970s. And I think

• 10:23Anthony Pompliano?

  What percentage would that be?

• 10:24Speaker 02

  I don't know, probably 13, 14, 15%.

• 10:26Anthony Pompliano?

  So some, some 15, but over 10?

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, if you look at import export prices, those numbers are more real. And that's about what you see because there, they're actually taking a look at how much are the goods that we're importing costing? What are the goods that we're exporting? It's just apples to apples and you can actually see the prices, although anecdotally, most of the price increases that people, you know, point out to me, I get a lot of emails and people show me, hey, this is what I just bought. And here are the exact same thing I bought last year or six months ago. And you look at the price increases, uh, they're much bigger than 6%.

• 11:02Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. Second thing is that we now have Jerome Powell as the Fed Reserve Chairman going to be renominated and continue. Good decision, bad decision, or would you have done something different if you were President Schiff?

• 11:14Speaker 02

  Well, there probably would be no Fed if I was the Fed.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  I would have already gotten rid of it, but um, no, I predicted on my podcast that Biden would take the coward's way out and renominate a Powell. I mean, politically-

• 11:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Why is it the coward's way out?

• 11:31Speaker 02

  Well, you know, you don't want to go out on a limb and put somebody else in there who's your person, because then if anything goes wrong, it's your fault, right?

• 11:39Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a safe choice.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  You just leave the guy there that's there because hey, everybody wants him there. Um, and then if everything, something goes wrong, hey, it's not my fault. Look, he's not my guy. Trump appointed him and, you know, the Republicans wanted me to keep him. And uh, so it's, it's easier for him than going out on a limb, because if, if the economy does well, or Powell does a good job, then he gets credit for reappointing him. Uh, but to go out in left field and, and, and go for a brain nerd or somebody else, and then something goes wrong, you know, what, why? I mean, Trump kinda had to get rid of Yellen, because he spent his whole campaign bashing Yellen, uh, basically for doing exactly what he then bashed Powell for not doing, until Powell got his mind right and started doing exactly

• 12:21Speaker 02

  what Trump criticized Yellen for doing. Um, but look, he's done a lousy job. I mean, if you want to look at the Fed's, uh, you know, uh, mandate of price stability, we clearly don't have it. Um, but you know, that, I, I think really what the Fed's job is, as far as Biden is concerned, is helping me get reelected and kicking the can down the road until the next election.

• 12:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you think anyone would do something different? Like- What would you have done if you were in that seat?

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Well, you know, what I would do, I, you know, I would let the markets know that the Fed is no longer going to be setting interest rates, that the market was going to do that, and we were going to start liquidating our holdings of US Treasuries. Because they-

• 13:08Speaker 02

  And of course, in so doing, there would be massive losses that, and you know, the bill goes to the US taxpayer, you know, as the Fed unwinds its balance sheet, any losses are IOUs to the US taxpayer, because the US government has to make the Fed whole for that. But also, you know, I would let the government know that the Fed is no longer in the business of monetizing government debt, and that if you want your Build Back Better, you better figure out how you're going to pay for it.

• 13:39Anthony Pompliano?

  How, okay, this is what I want to talk about as well, is they say it's cost zero dollars. Is that bullshit?

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Of course it's bullshit. I mean, they always say that because their assumptions are ludicrous.

• 13:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Likewise. Break it down for me.

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Well, the revenue assumptions, they're not going to get the revenue. A lot of the revenue is supposedly going to come from extra IRS agents, you know, getting the rich to pay their fair share. Well, you know, they're not going to get much more money out of the rich. There's not that many rich people, other than you crypto guys. But, and you don't pay taxes anyway, because you never sell.

• 14:11Anthony Pompliano?

  You're so salty. You're so salty.

• 14:14Speaker 02

  You guys never sell, so they're not getting any taxes.

• 14:16Anthony Pompliano?

  You'd be one of the richest people in the world if you bought Bitcoin when you first heard about it. Keep going.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  But, but they're not going to get the revenue. I mean, they're obviously mainly going to target the middle class. That's where the extra IRS enforcement is going, but it's hard to get blood from a stone. So I don't think they're going to get a lot of revenue. Meanwhile, all these new programs are going to cost so much more than they think. I mean, first of all, they act as if the programs are going to go away in, you know, five years, because they don't want to count the spending in the out years. Although we all know that these programs never go away. Once they're there, they're there forever. I mean, we're still dealing with temporary programs from the Second World War. You know, the war ended, well, why are these temporary programs still in effect, right? They never go away. There's an old saying, I think it was Milton Friedman, "There's nothing as

• 15:03Speaker 02

  permanent as a temporary government program." So to pretend that these programs are going to sunset is nonsense. But also, they have grossly underestimated the cost, because the government doesn't understand moral hazard. They don't understand what happens. So, part of the Build Back Better... Is everybody gets free preschool? Well, the cost of preschool is going to go way up once the government makes it free. Because now the demand for preschool goes way up. And now the preschools start jacking up their tuition.

• 15:37Anthony Pompliano?

  It's like the defense industry. The defense industry says, oh, you're going to pay us all this money. We're just going to keep increasing the cost of it to you because we know you got a ton of money.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  It's just like, look what government did to college tuition. Before the government started subsidizing college tuition and guaranteeing loans, college tuition was cheap. Government gets involved and it costs a fortune. So it's going to, they're going to end up spending a lot more on preschool than they think. But I think the biggest one is going to be if it stays in there. Because the senate might get rid of it. But that is the paid family medical leave. Because everyone's going to take that. They just assume that, well, only the people that actually have a medical emergency are going to ask for their four-week paid vacation. No, I mean, didn't they learn their lesson from the PPP or the extended unemployment benefits? If you tell an American that they can have a four-week

• 16:29Speaker 02

  paid vacation at 90% of salary every single year, and all they have to do is claim they have to take care of a sick friend or family member, you don't think they're going to say that?

• 16:38Anthony Pompliano?

  My brother just got sick, damn.

• 16:42Speaker 02

  You tell me everybody that had an emotional support animal on an airplane actually needed that?

• 16:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Peter, you're ruthless. You're going after the animals?

• 16:52Speaker 02

  No, it's the people.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  No, but people, look, people try to qualify for these programs. Everyone's going to want to take a month off every summer. So, oh my God, my uncle needs my help. My kid needs my help. I'm not feeling well, I'm depressed.

• 17:08Anthony Pompliano?

  He just happens to live in Italy. I gotta go to the summer.

• 17:12Speaker 02

  Everybody's gonna suddenly have a sick relative in the summer.

• 17:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. All right, so when this happens, uh, what is the impact? The programs cost more than they think, and then they can't get as much revenue as they think. So what is the impact, in your opinion, if this gets passed and implemented?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Well, it's just more inflation, you know, because the Fed has to print more money. That's why the Fed is talking about printing less money. That's tapering, but they're gonna have to print more money to fund these deficits. Otherwise, interest rates go way up, and what happens if interest rates go way up? Well, the deficits actually get bigger because now the government has to spend even more interest, I mean, even more to pay the interest on the debt that it already has. Not to mention the new debt that's being incurred, but also when interest rates go up, it hurts the bubble economy because now everybody has to pay higher interest. So you can't spend more money on other things because your, your interest rates went up, your adjustable rate mortgage went up, uh, you know, your credit card interest rates went up.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  People can buy less stuff on credit because car loans are more expensive. So this whole bubble economy starts to unravel, and we go towards recession or into recession. And when that happens, government tax receipts fall, more spending on unemployment. So the deficits get even bigger. So the Fed has no choice if it's gonna keep everything going, but to expand the QE program, print even more money, create even more inflation. And, and so the price increases that we're experiencing now, you know, are just a small taste of what's to come.

• 18:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Will we see 10% inflation in the official CPI number in the United States in the next three years, you think?

• 18:55Speaker 02

  I think we will, unless they rig the numbers again. I wouldn't put it past them, but assuming they leave the CPI the way it is. Probably, we might see 10% next year.

• 19:06Speaker 03

  Is inflation going to get worse in the coming year?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Well, it has to get worse. And in fact, and again, when you're talking about price increases, you're measuring the consequence of inflation. The inflation is the expansion of the money supply, and we know money supply is going to keep expanding. They're about to raise the debt ceiling, right, so we can keep going deeper into debt. You know, I always laugh whenever they talk about it. Janet Yellen, you know, when she testified the other day.

• 19:30Anthony Pompliano?

  She said six times the government's going to be bankrupt this year.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  The funny thing is, she said, "We have to raise the debt ceiling because it's important that we pay our bills in full on time." Well, if we paid our bills in full on time, we'd have no debt, right? The reason we have a debt is because we don't pay our bills at all. We borrow money so that we don't have to pay our bills. And what Janet Yellen really means is that we need to raise the debt ceiling because we can't pay our bills.

• 19:56Anthony Pompliano?

  We can't pay our bills, we have to take more on more debt.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  We have to take on more debt.

• 20:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Can I ask a serious question? And I'm scared to ask you this because I'm going to give you like all the ammunition in the world. If I am taking money from one investor or lender to pay back the original lender.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Ponzi scheme.

• 20:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, there's two ways to look at it. It's called refinancing. People do it in mortgages all the time, right? It's also called a Ponzi scheme if they're investors that I'm not necessarily refinancing. I'm literally just playing like a finance game.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Yes, it is a Ponzi scheme. That's why Bernie Madoff said that the United States was running the world's biggest Ponzi scheme, and that what he did was nothing compared to that. And I used to joke about it.

• 20:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait, that was really his defense?

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Because, yep, no, but he just mentioned it. Like, hey, come on. I mean, like, he wasn't saying...

• 20:41Anthony Pompliano?

  He's a dangerous person.

• 20:43Speaker 02

  But this was the thing.

• 20:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Did he really say, that was really his defense?

• 20:46Speaker 02

  Yes. And then the New York Times wrote this piece, and they mentioned it, and they said, "Well, you know, Bernie Madoff doesn't have any credibility," right? So, and I used to joke and say, "Wait a minute, wait a minute. He's got credibility on one thing."

• 20:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, he knows.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  He knows what he's saying. He knows all about Ponzi schemes. So, if he says you're running a Ponzi scheme. Yes, exactly. That's why I used to joke, "We should have made him Secretary of the Treasury."

• 21:11Speaker 02

  The whole nature of what we were doing.

• 21:14Anthony Pompliano?

  You know, that's pretty good.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know, because, but the thing is, the government, Janet Yellen, when she tells everybody that if we don't raise the debt ceiling, we're going to default, that's an admission it's a Ponzi scheme, right? Bernie Madoff would never be dumb enough to admit he was running a Ponzi scheme. Like, that's Ponzi 101. You keep it quiet. But you don't tell everybody it's a Ponzi scheme because they're not going to participate.

• 21:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, all right. So that's the debt. Let's go to social security. Because one of the things that I'm very interested in.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  Oh, and before you do that, I wanted to, I had forgot to finish answering the question as to why the inflation is going to be worse on a CPI. Look at producer prices. Producer prices 2021 up more than consumer prices. So businesses were seeing their prices, costs, rise more than what they passed on to their customers. Now, why was that? It's because a lot of businesses were reluctant to raise prices. They're worried about losing sales to competitors. And they were told that it's all transitory. Okay, we'll take a hit for a few months. It's transitory. We don't want to reprice everything and then have to change

• 22:22Speaker 02

  the prices. So businesses kind of absorbed the rising prices and took a hit in their margins. But I think by 2021, or 2022, rather, a lot of these businesses are going to throw in the towel and they're going to say, you know what? We got to pass this on. It's not temporary. And I think you're going to see businesses much more willing to raise prices in 2022 than they were in 2021. And

• 22:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Is this where you see corporate executives on their earnings calls being like, oh, we raised prices and like, the customers liked it? Like, it was basically, like, that's basically what people have said. They've been like, oh, we raised prices and the market accepted it, right?

• 23:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're not saying they liked it. They're just saying they accepted our higher prices. They tolerated it.

• 23:10Anthony Pompliano?

  And therefore now they feel emboldened to do more of it because they've seen like, hey, we did a little bit. We raised three or 4%. Nobody left. Actually, in some cases, demand's even higher. And so if we raise it 5% or 6% from here, then if nobody leaves, we can just continue to play this game.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they're going to raise prices as much as they can. I mean, in general, businesses want to maximize profits. And so the reason you don't keep raising prices is eventually you lose sales. But if all of your competitors are facing the same cost problems that you have, when you raise prices, other people have to raise prices too. What ultimately happens, though, as you really start to raise prices significantly, it does impact demand because not everybody can afford the higher prices. And then what happens is businesses end up reducing capacity so they can achieve their profitability at a lower scale. And then prices really start to go up because now supply is coming down

• 24:05Speaker 02

  because fewer businesses are providing these products or services. And you really get the spiral. But what's driving it all is the money. It's more money being created. I mean, they keep talking about the supply side problems. I was, you know, just getting a kick out of Powell's testimony because

• 24:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you watch? Was that your Super Bowl? Were you sitting there and you had a beer and like some steak and a pizza?

• 24:29Speaker 02

  I didn't have refreshments or anything, but I was watching. But Powell was like, well, because someone had said to him, well, what did you get wrong? You know, now that he's saying it's not transitory. And Powell said, well, you know, we got one thing wrong, and that was the supply problem, the supply. I mean, and he said, but, you know, in fairness, nobody could have predicted this. This was crazy. It came out of left field. I mean, nobody could have realized that the effect of the pandemic would have been like supply chain bottlenecks. And I'm like, what is this guy serious? I mean, so You basically shut down the entire economy, right? All these factories close. You furlough all the workers. You literally stop making stuff.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  And now you're surprised that there's a shortage of stuff? You're not making it anymore. How could there not be a supply chain problem? I pointed it out on my podcast in March of 2020. As soon as this happened, I said, I don't know why people are talking about COVID as being deflationary. This is inflation on steroids. Because not only are we flooding the world with money, we're stopping the production of goods. I mean, we're having less stuff and more money to buy it. This is like, you know, double inflation. So this was obvious.

• 25:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Shrinking and inflation.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Inflation is more money and chasing less stuff. Well, when factories shut down, they're not producing stuff.

• 25:54Anthony Pompliano?

  How did new variants play into this? Are they going to keep this game going? Are they going to keep doing it?

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I mean, they're looking for excuses to continue these programs. But the point I want to finish. Let me finish making the point that when we shut the economy down, right? And people stop working, they needed to stop spending. That was the right thing to do. Hey, you're no longer working. You're not producing goods and services. So you got to stop consuming because you're not producing.

• 26:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Correct.

• 26:21Speaker 02

  So we, but the idiots in Washington said, hey, we want to make sure that these unemployed people keep spending. On what? We're not making anything. But they gave them all this money anyway so that they could spend even though they weren't productive.

• 26:35Anthony Pompliano?

  So productivity fell, but they still had cash because they got handed free money from the government and then they went and just spent it all.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  A lot of that cash went into assets, though, not consumer goods.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Well, it went both places. Yeah, because some, I mean, in fact, some of the people that got stimulus money went right to the Robin Hood and bought stocks. Some people went and bought crypto with it. But look at the trade deficits. They skyrocketed all time record highs. We started buying all these goods that people were still making in other countries where they were still going to work. But all of these things were very predictable and it was a misguided policy. The Fed did the opposite of what it should have done. We should have controlled. Tracked in monetary supply, supply along with the contraction of the economy. But we didn't want to do that. We didn't have the stomach for that. And of course, we that the politicians could not have ordered people to go home if they didn't also say, oh, by the way,

• 27:25Speaker 02

  we'll give you the same money that you would have earned. If the politicians said, hey, you gotta, you can't go to work. Oh, and by the way, you don't have any income. People would have said, screw that. I'm going to work.

• 27:35Anthony Pompliano?

  So did they? They had to do it, but it's bad because of the impact.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  It was horrible economic policy and the obvious consequence is this massive, you know, increase in prices that we're seeing the supply shortages. But Powell acted as if nobody could have predicted this when it was the most obvious thing that only an idiot could have missed it. And, and the question is, if the Fed is so, you know, incompetent that they don't see that when you stop production, that you don't have supply. If they can't see that, what else are they missing? You know, what are the other obvious massive problems looming that the Fed is clueless about?

• 28:13Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. So when shift variant or some other variant shows up, are they going to shut down the economy? Or is that now too politically sensitive? And so they're going to basically do everything they can out to shut it down. And they're going to use stimulus to try to keep everything going. Or like, how do you look at the, like, the future?

• 28:28Speaker 02

  I don't know if they're going to try to shut everything down again. I do know that there are a lot of, you know, factions that, that like to shut down. I mean, I'm surprised the teachers' union hasn't come out and said, oh, oh, oh, Omicron, we can't go to school. We gotta send, send my paychecks, uh, you know, I'm doing homeschooling again or whatever. Where they did it online. But a lot of people don't like working. In fact, most people don't like working. They, they like getting paid. So if they can get paid without working, well, that's what they choose to do. And they can use coronavirus as the excuse. Ah, look who's here.

• 29:04Anthony Pompliano?

  Peter McCormick is now in the building.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know.

• 29:07Anthony Pompliano?

  Ladies and gentlemen.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  So, you know, we were talking about Ponzi's.

• 29:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, we're live right now.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  We talked about Ponzi schemes before, right?

• 29:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Sorry, Peter didn't know that we were live.

• 29:18Speaker 02

  We were talking about Ponzi schemes and that's a good segue into Bitcoin.

• 29:23Speaker 02

  Although.

• 29:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you, was that you trying to get a reaction? Is that a joke?

• 29:25Speaker 02

  No, actually.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  Bitcoin is more of a pyramid than a Ponzi. I can explain the difference if you want.

• 29:32Anthony Pompliano?

  You like that picture? Yeah, you like that picture?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  Oh. Do you carry that around in your wallet?

• 29:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Wallet. It's a bit, we're digital over. We don't actually have wallets. We have digital wallets. So you'd have

• 29:44Speaker 02

  For your digital money, for your make believe money. Yeah.

• 29:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, hey, make believe money is going pretty well. Alright, so I got a couple of questions while Peter gets set up over there. First thing that I want to understand is social security. This thing is done? It's over? Or are they going to figure out some way out of it and be able to actually give people social security after 2032 or 2034?

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Well, social security is the original government Ponzi. This is even before it started operating the national debt as a Ponzi. But, uh, social security is an intergenerational Ponzi, right? Because the people who got in early, the people that, you know, started, um, paid into social security hardly any money because initially it was a 1% tax, a 1% of wages, and the self-employed didn't even have to pay. I mean, they figured if you're smart enough to be self-employed, you can save for yourself. So if you had, if you were self-employed, you weren't even required to pay in. So it was very small and the early people that got in, uh, ended up as huge winners. This woman,

• 30:42Speaker 02

  I'm a fuller, is the first person to ever get social security. She lived to 100. I think she only paid taxes for like one year and then she collected for like 50 years or whatever. So she made out like a bandit because she was the first one into Ponzi. Uh, but at this point, you know, you have this whole generation, the baby boom, there's no chance that the baby boom is going to get out from social security, what they put in. Um, it's just impossible because they never funded it like real insurance. It wasn't like the government took the social security contributions and set them aside and invested them. Uh, they just spent all the money and they replaced it with an IOU from the US government of the treasury. Uh, but it's a classic Ponzi. But even now, the

• 31:26Speaker 02

  social security system no longer collects.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  As much in taxes as it's paying out in benefits right now.

• 31:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  So they're already drawing down these phony trust funds by running additional deficits because the government used to be able to borrow from these so-called trust funds to help fund the deficit. But now the trust funds themselves are borrowing because labor force participation has collapsed. A lot of people have retired early, so they're not paying into social security anymore. But you have all these people who are paying out and in fact now that the CPI is rising at a higher pace. You know, they have to keep giving raises now on social security. So this thing is rapidly running for a collapse, but it's all being financed by the Fed right now. That's the only reason that the whole system hasn't imploded is because we're printing the money to pay the benefits.

• 32:20Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Have you ever met Peter McCormack in person?

• 32:23Speaker 02

  No, I think I'd remember all those tattoos.

• 32:25Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Peter is your biggest fan. Your mom's both are just as smart as each other's moms because she both named you guys Peter.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's got a good name.

• 32:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Good, good name. That's a good common ground. I think that's where the common ground ends.

• 32:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Did you play tennis this morning?

• 32:42Speaker 02

  No, I didn't play tennis.

• 32:44Speaker 03

  Common ground's over now.

• 32:47Anthony Pompliano?

  No, I just thought you came from tennis.

• 32:48Speaker 02

  No, I'm just, I'm wearing blue and white and red. It's patriotic colors, but you know, I'm here in Florida.

• 32:54Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you think about his picture? You're never on vacation.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. You got me down here. No, I only vacation when I'm in the United States. I work in Puerto Rico.

• 33:03Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, okay.

• 33:06Anthony Pompliano?

  I spent 300 days in Florida this year, just.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm gonna do 300 in Puerto Rico.

• 33:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, perfect.

• 33:12Speaker 04

  I'm gonna do 300 in Bedford.

• 33:15Anthony Pompliano?

  What questions you have for Peter? I know you've got a number of questions and I feel great that I've now corralled both of you into the same room staring at each other while you also have that picture of Schiff next to you.

• 33:26Speaker 04

  Any questions? I don't know. I thought you were gonna like. Well, no, listen, can your mind be changed?

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Oh, sure, about a lot of things.

• 33:34Speaker 04

  Can your mind be changed on Bitcoin?

• 33:38Speaker 04

  Are you in a position now?

• 33:39Speaker 02

  I don't know if I can get any more bearish than I already am, but I mean.

• 33:42Speaker 04

  Like, is there any argument where you would, you know, if you heard a sound enough argument, would you be like, yeah, you know what, I might be wrong?

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Well, I just, I mean, I didn't know there's an argument I haven't heard yet, though. I mean, that's the problem. I think I've heard all the arguments.

• 33:55Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the thing that? If you saw it happen, you'd be like, okay, fine, Bitcoin's gonna at least be around. Forget the competition with gold, just Bitcoin is actually have value. What is the thing that you would look and be like, okay, damn, that works?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  Well, you know, we're no closer to that, you know, than when we first started. I mean, all I see with Bitcoin is people buying it, thinking that the price is gonna go up. And I, you know,

• 34:20Anthony Pompliano?

  If the government bought Bitcoin and put it in the Federal Reserve balance sheet, would you then say, oh, you know what, maybe I'm wrong?

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, governments do stupid things. I don't expect them to be that stupid, so I don't think-

• 34:32Anthony Pompliano?

  But if they did it, just say they were really stupid and they did it, would that change your mind?

• 34:35Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I mean, if they just started buying Bitcoin too, I'd be surprised. But, you know, I guess that'd be great for you guys. You could sell to the government if they were dumb enough to buy it. But, you know, right now, I think the latest pump is to get high-profile people, whether it's the mayor of Miami, or some celebrity, or football player, to say, oh, I want to get paid in Bitcoin. As if they're actually getting paid in Bitcoin, they're not.

• 35:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Why not?

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Well, they're not accepting Bitcoin denominated salaries. They're saying, hey, take my dollar salary that you were about to pay me, and convert it to Bitcoin and send it to me. And then when I get the Bitcoin, well, I'll convert it back to dollars so I can buy the things that I actually need. I think it's all another PR gimmick to try to get people to think, oh, see, Bitcoin is being used as money, because Odell Beckham wants to get paid his salary in Bitcoin.

• 35:30Anthony Pompliano?

  The leagues don't allow them to get paid in Bitcoin.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  Well, they're not. I mean, anybody, like, you could pay people in peach pits. I mean, you could, you could convert their dollars to whatever the hell they want. You know, but it's all publicity stunt, you know, to try to get people to buy Bitcoin.

• 35:47Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you think about people getting paid in Bitcoin?

• 35:49Speaker 04

  Well, I get paid in Bitcoin and I don't convert it all.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  No, but you get paid by who?

• 35:54Speaker 04

  Sponsors. Sponsors pay me in Bitcoin.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  But do you negotiate the rates in Bitcoin? Or is it in, what, you're in Australia, the UK?

• 36:02Speaker 04

  UK, UK.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  So it's pound, so.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  But I use dollar as my unit of account.

• 36:05Speaker 02

  All right. So when you, when you have an advertiser, do you have a fixed dollar price for ads?

• 36:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, I tell them the price in dollars and I ask them if they want to pay me in Bitcoin and all dollars.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Right, but you're not using Bitcoin as the unit of account.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  But I wouldn't use gold as a unit of account if I got paid in gold.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  But it, no, you could. Yes, you could.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  But I wouldn't. I would still use dollars. Obviously they pay me in gold, but here's.

• 36:29Speaker 02

  But why not? I mean, because gold is pretty stable. I mean, I, I mean, I have no problem.

• 36:34Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, but this is, this is an important point. So Peter, I've heard you, hold on a second.

• 36:38Speaker 02

  Let's make this valuable. What about other currencies?

• 36:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Hold on, hold on, hold on. This is an important point. There's three kind of properties to money, right? There's store of value, medium of exchange and unit of account.

• 36:49Speaker 02

  Correct. And also let me point out, because people overlook this one, but part of the, the store of value is also a medium of deferred payment. And, and that's very important as a store of value. People don't talk about it. It means basically that I can loan you money and then you can pay me back. And the, the loan, when you repay me is the same purchasing power as when I made the loan. That's part of the store of value, but lending is very important to an economy. And you need to have a money that can be utilized as loans. You know, now nobody is going to take out a Bitcoin mortgage.

• 37:29Speaker 04

  I mean, actually they are.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Well, but you're, so, so you're going to buy a house and you're going to say, I want you to loan me 10 Bitcoin.

• 37:37Speaker 04

  No.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  And I'm going to pay you back 10 Bitcoin over 30 years. No, no one's doing.

• 37:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, okay, all right, hold on, hold on, hold on.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  What the hell Bitcoin is going to be worth.

• 37:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on. So let Peter explain what the Bitcoin mortgages are right now. And then it's a different thing than what you're talking about, but they're calling it a Bitcoin mortgage.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  But then it's not a real, if it, it's not a real Bitcoin mortgage if you're not amortizing Bitcoin.

• 37:58Anthony Pompliano?

  I know.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  Okay, okay, so I allow sponsors to pay me in Bitcoin. Anyone who wants to pay me in Bitcoin, they can. But the reason I don't price my services in Bitcoin is my accounts, my accounts are done in pounds or dollars, whatever.

• 38:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, actual currencies.

• 38:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's, well, we can go back to that. But the reason it's done that is because my accounts have to be reported to the government in pounds. So that's the reason it's done. But I choose to accept Bitcoin and hold it in Bitcoin as part of my treasury as I could with gold. Your argument there is exactly the same. There's no difference.

• 38:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 38:29Speaker 04

  But bear with me, bear with me. Just, but just, just as an example, I've just bought a football team. That team is going to run dual accounts, is going to run a pound account and a Bitcoin account. We're going to run them side by side. And what that says to me is that we're in this transitionary period where Bitcoin isn't a useful unit of account because it is volatile against the pound and we have to report our accounts in the pound. But over time, the transition is happening, which is why I'm moving with my new business to have dual accounts. We'll run one in Bitcoin and one in pounds. But either way, I don't see this as an argument against Bitcoin. It's still used, it's still the same argument as gold.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  Now, I look at when you're using Bitcoin now in a transaction. It is more of a barter transaction than a monetary transaction. Whereas when you say, you know what? I will trade you this advertising service that you want for the Bitcoin that you have that I want. And the Bitcoin is more a good and you're basically going back to barter where you're bartering for Bitcoin.

• 39:28Speaker 04

  But it would be the same argument for gold.

• 39:30Speaker 02

  No, it wouldn't.

• 39:31Speaker 04

  But I would never price my business in gold because gold is volatile against the pound. It's exactly the same reason. Different levels of volatility, but it's exactly the same argument.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Right, well, when we were on, right, a gold standard, that's what everybody did, right? Because every currency was pegged to gold. So even if you priced in a currency, you priced in gold. And in fact, a lot of contracts had gold clauses just in case there was ever a problem that you could enforce the payment in gold if the government screwed up the currency. But even today, even if you weren't on a gold standard, gold is stable enough.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Over short and longer periods of time that you can price products and services in gold.

• 40:18Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, but nobody is.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  But you could.

• 40:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait one second.

• 40:21Speaker 04

  More companies right now globally will be pricing in Bitcoin than with gold.

• 40:25Speaker 02

  No, nobody is pricing in Bitcoin.

• 40:27Speaker 04

  No, they are, they are.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  Who's pricing in Bitcoin?

• 40:29Speaker 04

  Various people.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Then you have to change the price every 10 minutes, every hour?

• 40:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait a second, hold on. I don't want to talk about gold for a second because you hold some gold, not a ton of gold. I'm not against gold. You also own a bunch of equities, right? So rather than compete Bitcoin versus gold, what I want to talk about is Bitcoin specifically. And I think that one of the key things that you're talking about is the pricing of the asset, the unit of account in Bitcoin, right? If he says, hey, you want to buy something from me? You want to buy a service, a good, whatever, it's priced in Bitcoin. If you're thinking of it in terms of pounds or dollars, yes, it moves, right? And sometimes it's not very volatile, sometimes it's very, very volatile. But if instead you actually are denominating your balance sheet, let's say I have a business, I denominated in Bitcoin, he prices something in Bitcoin. When I go to buy it, I don't think about what the US dollar value is, I just think of Bitcoin, right?

• 41:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Very similar to the US dollar. Very similar to the US dollar where you, I and Peter and my brothers all hold dollars. The dollar has been incredibly volatile over the last 18 months, but we don't think of it as volatile because we don't think of an exchange price with the dollar because the goods are priced in dollars and our balance sheets, we think of in terms of dollars. So it's actually the same exact thing. The difference is that there's a mismatch between if your balance sheet's in dollars, his balance sheet's in Bitcoin, that's where there's volatility. But it's really the same thing. Dollar has been falling aggressively over the last 18 months, right?

• 41:49Speaker 02

  The dollar, well, not against other fiat currencies, it's relatively stable.

• 41:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Against goods.

• 41:55Speaker 02

  And yes, I mean, the purchasing power of the dollar has declined. The purchasing power of pretty much every currency has declined.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Normally, you would see that represented in gold, and I think the reason you're not over this time period is because, you know, first the Fed was saying there is no inflation, then they were saying it's transitory, now they're acknowledging that it's not, but the market still expects the Fed to fight inflation successfully, and so that's what's keeping a lot of pressure on gold, the idea that inflation is going to go away because the Fed is going to kill it, but nobody has figured out that it can't, it's impossible, because if the Fed were to actually raise rates high enough to fight inflation, the economy would tank, we'd have a financial crisis, and they would be right back to the printing presses.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  The idea that they could fight inflation with just a half a percent rate hike, you know, in 2022, is ludicrous. There's no way you can stop inflation with those tiny rate hikes. You know, I mean, if you could do it, then Volcker would have done it in 1980, wouldn't have gone up to 20%, but that's where they went. I mean, you can't tame this kind of inflation with those little baby rate hikes, especially when you're starting from zero, right, going from zero to a half a percent, what is that going to do about 6% or 7% inflation? That's probably more like, you know, 15% inflation. But the bigger problem with Bitcoin, forgetting about unit of account, medium of exchange, it's the

• 43:26Speaker 02

  basic premise that it's a store of value, which it 100% can never be, because you cannot be a store of value unless you have value to store, right? And so-

• 43:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Are you tricking us?

• 43:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 43:40Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you mean by that?

• 43:43Speaker 02

  All right, so why is gold a store of value, right? Well, gold is a valuable metal, right, that is used for all sorts of things, right?

• 43:54Anthony Pompliano?

  Technology and jewelry.

• 43:55Speaker 02

  A lot of things, whatever. It's a metal, just like copper or nickel. I mean, you could, you know, copper's a store of value too. It's just, you know, it's just, it's just hard to store it because it's bulkier, but why gold is a store of value is because-

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Gold, I can use my gold today, or I can hold it in a bar and somebody else can use it tomorrow, whether it's in five years, 10 years, 100 years, that gold's not going anywhere. It's not gonna rust, it's not gonna decay, right, it's gonna stay around. So, the value of gold is stored. It's, and like here, I have gold in my watch.

• 44:35Speaker 04

  Is it real?

• 44:36Speaker 02

  Yes. Now, I mean, you can melt, you can melt this down and, and get the gold and do something else with it. You would, it'd be stupid to melt the watch down because it's worth more as a watch, but at some point, let's say it wasn't, no one gave a damn about watches, but they just needed gold, you could melt it down and the gold is exactly the same as it was before it went into my watch.

• 44:58Speaker 04

  But what if we discover more gold?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  Let me, let me just finish. So, gold represents all of the uses for gold until the end of time discounted to today, because you can use it over and over and over again, right?

• 45:11Speaker 04

  Peter, so what you're saying here is it has industrial use?

• 45:14Speaker 02

  It has real use. It has real value to human beings, and not just industrial use, right? I mean, I'm not using it in industry while I'm wearing it. But you go around, you know, Miami, go out tonight, look at all the women, look at all the men, and look at how much gold they've got, right? They're all wearing it around their necks, around their wrists, right? I mean, on their fingers, right? People like to adorn themselves with gold. They've been doing that for thousands of years and I don't think it's gonna stop.

• 45:44Speaker 04

  I mean, outside of people in India and yourself, I don't know anyone who wears gold anymore.

• 45:47Speaker 02

  What? Well, as I said, go out tonight and check, take, take a look at the...

• 45:51Speaker 04

  Anyway, I get your point. So, the point you're making is gold has value because it has industrial use?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Has value as for, in, don't keep saying industry, but industry is one use, but, you know, but people use it, right?

• 46:02Speaker 04

  Okay. So, I've got an answer. Just, just to interject, so to give you a point, is that we're talking about technology innovation here. So, whilst you regard gold as money because it is money, but it's store of value and can also has these other uses, you are not recognizing that Bitcoin also has other uses. But Bitcoin is a techni- Innovation that provides services outside of it just being a store of value. Bear with me. So just as an example, right now, you can send synthetic dollars across the Bitcoin network rails anywhere in the world instantly and for free. It's out innovated every single financial network in the world. No other financial.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  But what does that have to do with the value of a single Bitcoin?

• 46:41Speaker 04

  Bear with me. That allows it to do it. So it has a use case. So there's a reason to own it, which gives it a price. The supply and demand on owning those Satoshis to be able to move the value around the world. So there's.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Well, how many Satoshis do you need to own?

• 46:51Speaker 04

  Bear with me.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Is it, oh, can I just have one?

• 46:53Speaker 04

  But that.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Do I get access to that network with just one Satoshi? So what did, why do I need any more than one?

• 46:58Speaker 04

  Because it has to equate to the, uh, the exchange rate of what the Bitcoin is at that moment, which also is something that people want as a store of value. But just bear with me.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  But no, but.

• 47:06Speaker 04

  But just bear with me.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  But what value are they storing? What's the value? What is the inherent value of a Bitcoin?

• 47:12Speaker 04

  It's the, there's no inherent value in everything. We've all.

• 47:15Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. Yes, there is.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  No, there isn't. There's, there is market value for it.

• 47:19Speaker 02

  No, no. Market value is price.

• 47:21Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  Everything has, I'm not arguing that Bitcoin doesn't have a price. It does. Obviously, it has a price. I'm saying it doesn't have any underlying value to justify that price.

• 47:29Anthony Pompliano?

  So here's what I'm gonna say.

• 47:30Speaker 02

  The price is based on speculation.

• 47:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Do we all agree that commodities in general have some value, whether there's a lot of value or a lower value? Okay.

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:38Anthony Pompliano?

  What do you think is the most valuable commodity in the world today?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not sure what the most valuable one is.

• 47:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  But gold's a, gold's a very valuable one.

• 47:47Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm sure that the most valuable commodity in today's economy is computing power. Would you, would you argue against that?

• 47:55Speaker 02

  Well, I don't know if you would define computing power as a commodity, but I.

• 47:59Anthony Pompliano?

  We have now hit, hold on, we have now hit what I think is the biggest difference between the way that you look at the world and the way that we probably look at the world, which is that in a analog economy, which we've lived in for centuries, physical commodities are by far the most valuable. When you transition into a digital economy, which right now I would say we're probably 50 50, maybe. I'd have to look at the numbers, but we're probably 50% analog, 50% digital. But over time, more and more of the economy will move online, become more virtual, et cetera. So the computing power as a commodity will become more valuable as we continue. That doesn't mean that other physical.

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Waste of computing power. You don't get any computing power when you own Bitcoin.

• 48:40Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on. When you think about computing power as a commodity, now, when you look at the Bitcoin network and Bitcoin as an asset, remember Bitcoiners weren't exactly the best marketers when they named the network, the payment rails Bitcoin, and they also named the asset Bitcoin as well. But you can spend Bitcoin across the Bitcoin network. But when somebody says, what is Bitcoin backed by? If they had asked what dollars were backed by before we came off the gold standard, you would say gold, right? The US dollar was backed by a physical commodity in terms of gold.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Technically, the US dollar was gold. It was actually defined legally as a specific weight of gold or silver. And then what happened was, we had notes, Federal Reserve notes, that were backed by dollars which were made of gold. So the Federal Reserve note wasn't a dollar. That's why they actually said, we'll pay to the bearer on-demand dollars, because they were paper receipts for dollars which were actually gold coins or silver.

• 49:38Anthony Pompliano?

  So now Bitcoin, and this is taking the same mechanism, Bitcoin is actually backed by the world's most valuable commodity, which is computing power. That is where it gets its value. Hold on. Because Bitcoin, the network, is the single strongest computing network in the entire world. There's no computer network in the world that is stronger than the Bitcoin network.

• 49:57Speaker 02

  So what? So I got Bitcoin. Can I redeem it and get some computing power that I can somehow use, like, you know, in my daily life?

• 50:06Anthony Pompliano?

  No, because it's not about redemption. It's about actually securing it. The value, hold on, the value of the dollar was not about redeeming the gold to then go do something with the gold. The value of the dollar was about being secured by the store of value of gold, right? So, yes, you could go redeem it, but that isn't the reason why there was a peg. The reason why there was a peg or a backing was so that the physical paper would actually retain the same value as the gold itself.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  It wasn't a peg or a backing. The dollar was legally defined as a specific weight of gold. That's what, so the dollar had value because gold had value. It had the value of gold. When we started issuing paper-

• 50:48Anthony Pompliano?

  And Bitcoin has value because the computing power-

• 50:51Speaker 02

  No, the computing power has nothing to do with the Bitcoin itself. I don't, I don't get to utilize that computing power because I have Bitcoin.

• 50:59Anthony Pompliano?

  You're using it by holding Bitcoin. You're using the computing power because, hold on a second, because, and this is very important. You're using the computing power to defend your purchasing power.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  What purchasing power? I just have Bitcoin. I only have purchasing power if someone's willing to buy my Bitcoin from me.

• 51:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Which is the single greatest protector of purchasing power on the planet over the last 10 years?

• 51:22Speaker 02

  The purchasing power of gold is gold's value relative to other commodities that you can historically look back and think or see. How much gold do I need historically to buy wheat, to buy oil, to buy soybeans, to buy copper? I mean, gold is a real thing. There is nothing secure.

• 51:43Speaker 04

  Hold on, gold is a real thing. Hold on, because this is an important point because like history is lined with the gravestones of the people who've failed to identify and accept techni- techni- technological innovation. And you're siding with Blockbuster and you're siding with Kodak and you're putting yourself on their side.

• 52:00Speaker 02

  The investment graveyard is littered with people who have fallen for Ponzi's and pyramids and the latest get risk quick theme.

• 52:09Speaker 04

  Bitcoin, Bitcoin doesn't even match the description of a Ponzi. So you're incorrect there.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  No, it's more of a pyramid.

• 52:18Speaker 04

  Not really.

• 52:19Speaker 02

  Yes, people make money in Bitcoin because other people buy it. You need more people to get in so you can get out.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  Forget every financial asset in the world.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  That's not true. No, it's not. You don't, all right, when you own a bond, nobody has to buy it from you. I buy a bond, I hold it to maturity, the lender pays me back, I get my interest. I buy a piece of real estate. I live in it, I can rent it out. Nobody ever has to buy it from me. I own a stock, I own a business. The business earns income, it pays me dividends.

• 52:50Anthony Pompliano?

  So hold on.

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Bitcoin doesn't pay dividends.

• 52:54Speaker 04

  It can do.

• 52:55Anthony Pompliano?

  It can, yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Well, oh no, then you have, well, you have to loan it out.

• 52:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 53:01Speaker 02

  Generate income because Bitcoin doesn't generate it.

• 53:04Anthony Pompliano?

  This is the most important part, I think, is would you agree with the statement? Every single financial asset in the world is engineered to continue to go up against the US dollar because the dollar will continue to be debased because they have no choice.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  No, it's not engineered that way and not look, there are a lot of companies that are going to go bankrupt. I mean, just because the dollar is going down doesn't mean an asset can't go down even faster.

• 53:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Equities as a, there's always good or bad within a bucket, but equities will continue to go up over long periods of time because the dollar will be debased. Real estate will continue to go up.

• 53:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. In nominal, in nominal terms, pretty much every real asset is going to go up measured against the dollar. Now, measured against gold, something like that, no. I mean, you can certainly see.

• 53:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Can I ask a question? When you buy gold, and again, I understand that your entire portfolio is not gold, but when you buy gold, is it fair to think that what you essentially are doing is you're hiring a scientific engineered metal to defend your purchasing power?

• 54:01Speaker 02

  No, I'm not hiring anybody. What I'm doing is I am storing my purchasing power in gold rather than in a fiat currency.

• 54:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Right? Because gold as money is liquidity. It's a store of value. I'm not using it right now as a medium of exchange, though it could be used that fashion, but it's not. But I use it to store liquidity more so than a fiat currency. And if I, you know, I'm going to own a fiat currency, I'm going to be in, let's say, the Swiss franc over, you know, other, other fiat currencies because I think it, it has less problems.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  But it's still not as, as good as gold. So I'm going to hold it. And I'm going to use that gold in the future to buy things that I need, including more investment assets. You know, if the price comes down, even if the price of my gold goes down, if gold drops by 10%, but stocks drop by 30 or 40%, I can still take advantage of that decline by using some of my gold to buy stocks. But if we have massive inflation where stocks might double in price versus dollars, but go down by 50 or 60% in gold, right? Because in real terms, stocks went down. Only went up in nominal terms, then I can use that appreciated gold to add to my equity.

• 55:17Anthony Pompliano?

  When you buy Bitcoin, what you are doing is you are hiring millions of people around the world and the strongest computer network in the world to protect your purchasing power. And in an analog economy, that may not be valuable. But in a digital economy, it's the single most valuable thing that can protect your purchasing power. Because the opportunity cost in a digital economy, in a digital economy, you don't have the opportunity to buy physical real estate. You can't use gold on the computer.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  So what ends up happening? There's gold in computers, number one.

• 55:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Again, again, hold on.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  That's the reason they work.

• 55:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Of course, but, but, hold on. But when you look, if I'm going to operate 100% digital, I'm going to operate 100% digital in a digital economy. You cannot buy the analog assets.

• 56:02Speaker 02

  All right, well, first of all, let me say something.

• 56:04Anthony Pompliano?

  You have to hire the strongest computer network in the world to protect your purchasing power.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  First of all, when you're buying Bitcoin, you're not, you're not hiring somebody to protect your purchasing power. You're just buying into a mass, you know, delusion. And you're just hoping that more people.

• 56:17Anthony Pompliano?

  The Bitcoin miners, in the last 24 hours, were paid over $50 million worth of Bitcoin to continue to secure the network.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're going to do that as long as they can make money mining Bitcoin, which means there has to be more fools that are willing to buy it. But you're buying in to that hysteria that more people will keep on buying it. It's a constant pump. You got to keep getting more and more money into, into it. More people have to come in to maintain the whole thing.

• 56:44Anthony Pompliano?

  But I want to ask you something. They still get, hold on a second, even if Bitcoin's price, this is important, even if Bitcoin's price dropped 99%, the 900 Bitcoin that will be mined today will still be mined if Bitcoin's price drops 99.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  If Bitcoin's price drops 99%, no one's going to want to buy it anymore.

• 56:59Anthony Pompliano?

  It's not going to drop 99%.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  Maybe you guys, but the vast majority of people will, will, will be out of Bitcoin for good. But let me, I want to ask you one more thing, because I don't, this doesn't make any sense. You keep talking about the digital economy, the digital economy. I mean, what, what do you mean digital economy? I mean, just because there's like a metaverse and, and.

• 57:18Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, not a metaverse. No, no, no, we're not talking about metaverse. I'm talking about the fact that. Right now, if you think of the businesses that you own in your equity portfolio, how many of them have factories? How many of them have large transportation fleets? How many of them actually produce physical goods, etc.?

• 57:35Speaker 02

  A lot of them.

• 57:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  What I'm buying.

• 57:37Anthony Pompliano?

  But, well, of course, that's why you haven't outperformed me. But if you think about the digital economy, right? Is in the digital world, there are now these businesses that are being created. Now, there are incumbent type digital businesses. So think of Facebook, for example. They still have physical employees, they have physical offices. But that's not where the value of that business is derived. The value of that business is derived from what happens in the digital world, not the physical world.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Well, no, Facebook derives its value from advertising revenue. And people are advertising real things in the physical world that people do and people need and people buy.

• 58:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Not always.

• 58:12Speaker 02

  Well, what are they?

• 58:13Anthony Pompliano?

  And so take, let's say, for example, a media company, right? Many of the media companies are advertising to have digital subscribers for their digital content. On top of that.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  But the people who are creating that content, they need to eat, they need to live somewhere. They buy products. I mean, our trade deficits are at all time record highs because we're buying more actual stuff.

• 58:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Of course.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  We're not all living in some digital fantasy world.

• 58:38Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm gonna say two things.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  Where we eat digital food and live in a digital house and drive digital cars. I mean, people use.

• 58:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Wait one second, wait one second, hold on. I'm gonna let Peter chime in here in a second. But in, you're a little bit older than me, not much, but a little bit. When you first started to drive, you had to do what? You would go buy a car, you'd go to the gas station, you would buy a map, a physical map, look where you were going on a long road trip, and you would start to drive. And you normally would have to have a physical, either 8-track or a CD-ROM or whatever, in order to listen to music, etc. Now, if you just think about getting in a car and going on a long road, you don't buy the physical map anymore, it's been digitized. You now use the digital version of that asset. You don't buy the 8-track or the CD-ROM or the cassette tape player.

• 59:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Instead, what you buy is you have digital music that you are paying a subscription. And even actually own the song itself. That's been digitized. And so there are some things like a car that will never be digital. You will never be able to take the car, put it in some digital world, and then you and I can like fly down the highway digitally. Right? So yes, there are still things that will exist in the analog world. But the trend is that everything in your life that can be digitized will be digitized. And I would even argue that the taxi has been digitized. Because now what has occurred is the largest taxi company in the world owns no cars. The largest hotel chain in the world owns no hotels. They have all become asset like digital first businesses.

• 1:00:11Speaker 02

  Now, the important part you mentioned, the cars are still there. They're still on the road.

• 1:00:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Agreed.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  And even if the drivers one day go away and they're self, you know, autonomous vehicles.

• 1:00:21Anthony Pompliano?

  We're gonna digitize the drivers.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  No, they're not. The cars are still there. But you know what? Money is like the car. Money ain't gonna be digitized. You're not gonna take real money and just represent it digitally as Bitcoin.

• 1:00:34Speaker 04

  Money's already been represented digitally.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  No, no, no. That's fiat. You can, you can, you can take fiat currency and represent it digitally. I'm not talking about fiat. I'm talking about real money, which is a commodity, is gonna be a real thing.

• 1:00:47Speaker 04

  But in the history of money, Peter.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  You're hoping that Bitcoin can replace fiat paper currency as a digital currency.

• 1:00:55Speaker 04

  No, we're not actually. But anyway, just like history of money, you're obviously a gold guy. You study the history of money. All the different forms of money during the evolution of money, did they all have uses outside of being money? Did rhinestones and marbles, when they were used, what were their use cases?

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  What was the use case for what?

• 1:01:11Speaker 04

  Like rhinestones and marbles, the history of money, forms of money, things that became money.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  Marble? When was, you mean, you talk about?

• 1:01:18Speaker 04

  Marbles.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  Little marbles that kids play with?

• 1:01:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Well, then that's what they did. They played with them.

• 1:01:22Speaker 04

  No, no, no. Historically, historically.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  They didn't become, nothing became money.

• 1:01:27Speaker 04

  Shells became money.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Unless, yeah, but people, you know what they did with the shells? They adorned themselves with them. Like cigarettes were money, right? In prisons, the GIs used them because, because you could smoke them. The reason that cigarettes were valuable as money was because people smoked.

• 1:01:41Speaker 04

  Where my Bitcoin, does it have value?

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  You can't wear your Bitcoin.

• 1:01:44Speaker 04

  Well, if I can wear a representation of it.

• 1:01:46Speaker 02

  No, well, that's no.

• 1:01:47Speaker 04

  But the point I'm making Peter is that what you seem to be missing here is that we aren't even against gold in this room. You know, there's gold in Bitcoin. We're not against it. We understand that people use it. People like yourself want to store it. You seem to me missing the point that other people just don't care about gold. They found a new form of money and they're going to use it.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  They think they did. They found fool's gold.

• 1:02:06Speaker 04

  No, no, but bear with it. People, enough people, 150 million people worldwide have decided this is the form of money that they want.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, well.

• 1:02:12Speaker 04

  Bear with me. They like the trade offs. They don't care that it isn't used industrially, but they like the trade offs, that they can store it on their phone or their wallets and anywhere in the world instantly. So they've made that choice that they think that's better money. Hold on Peter, Peter, sorry. Why can't you accept that other people have decided this is the form of money they want?

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  They haven't decided it's the form of money. They decided this is what they're going to buy to get rich.

• 1:02:34Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 1:02:34Speaker 02

  People think, people expect the price of Bitcoin to go way up. If they didn't do that, right? Let's assume people assumed that the current price of Bitcoin, whatever it is, 56,000, 57,000, whatever it is.

• 1:02:46Anthony Pompliano?

  That's a long way from when you heard about it at $10.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  But let's say that everybody accepted that this was it. This was as high as it was going to go, right? 57,000, this is the price. How many people would still be buying it right now if they thought this was the peak? Hey, you know, I'm happy to have, I want Bitcoin as my money. I want to use it, but it's 57,000. It's not going up. Right? This is where it is. Do you think you would still have all these people buying Bitcoin?

• 1:03:11Speaker 04

  Would it, would it, would it be, because then it's still not stable, because then it's subject to the debate.

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Okay, it's going to go up with inflation.

• 1:03:19Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  It's going to go up 5% a year, 6% a year, whatever.

• 1:03:23Speaker 04

  I give you 6 million people straight away will have it. The entire population of El Salvador, because they wouldn't need to be dollarized anymore.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  No, the population.

• 1:03:31Speaker 04

  Because it's stable. Because it's stabilized.

• 1:03:33Speaker 02

  It's not, it could fall. I'm not saying you got a free put. I'm just saying it ain't going up.

• 1:03:38Speaker 04

  All right, hold on. I want to invent a currency that can only drop.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  Well, I want to switch gears.

• 1:03:42Anthony Pompliano?

  You just invented a pointless argument.

• 1:03:43Speaker 04

  Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  No, but I'm saying if people thought, this is thinking.

• 1:03:47Speaker 04

  Professor Schiff, I have a question.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  It can't go up anymore. We've reached the peak.

• 1:03:50Anthony Pompliano?

  I want to change topics for a second. Uh, let's just say for a second, put aside the medium of exchange argument around Bitcoin. So whether it's a currency for a medium of exchange or not, whether it's a unit of account or not, who cares for the purpose of this conversation? A store of value, whether you like it, I like it, we don't like it, whatever. Bitcoin has continued to go up in US dollar terms.

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Yes, but that's got nothing to do with the store of value.

• 1:04:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on, hold on.

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  Just means the price has gone up.

• 1:04:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on.

• 1:04:18Speaker 04

  Storing value.

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  No, you're not storing value. You have a price going up.

• 1:04:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on, hold on.

• 1:04:22Speaker 04

  Storing value.

• 1:04:23Anthony Pompliano?

  Because that asset exists, like many other assets, real estate, uh, physical machinery, whatever, people are willing to financialize it. They're willing to lend against it. They're willing to borrow capital to buy it, all this type of stuff. There's been a whole focus recently. We now have, uh, news that big banks are starting to look at Bitcoin backed debt.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  What a disaster that's gonna be.

• 1:04:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on a second.

• 1:04:47Speaker 02

  Worse than subprime.

• 1:04:48Anthony Pompliano?

  El Salvador went ahead and said that they're going to issue this Bitcoin backed bond, and they're going to put 50% of it into Bitcoin, 50% they're going to use to build out certain things. I saw your tweet where you said it was worse than the subprime, uh, debacle.

• 1:05:01Speaker 02

  It will be if they take that as collateral.

• 1:05:03Anthony Pompliano?

  I disagree. But hold on, hold on, I'm gonna give you the floor to explain first. But just so you know, I know a lot about this and I'm warning you, don't say dumb stuff or I'm gonna prove you wrong.

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  I never say dumb stuff.

• 1:05:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Why do you think, uh, it's worse than subprime? In all seriousness, why do you think it's worse?

• 1:05:20Speaker 02

  Well, because you're talking about Bitcoin as collateral for a loan. And the problem with subprime mortgages was that the real estate that was collateralizing it could lose value.

• 1:05:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Right? And, and so when the lender, if the borrower defaults and the lender looks to the collateral, this house, and now they go to sell it, well, the price could be down.

• 1:05:48Anthony Pompliano?

  So you're saying, just so people at home can pay attention here. So let's say a house is, uh, we use these numbers, a hundred thousand dollars. And in order to buy the home, uh, I put down no money or 5%. I put down five thousand dollars and I borrowed ninety five thousand dollars to buy the home. Based on the fact that the home is worth $100,000. And historically, the idea is that that house, if it's worth $100,000 today, 20 years from now, will be worth more than $100,000. The problem is if-

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  Or if two years or three years from now, because you might default right away. You might lose your job, you know, right after you buy the house.

• 1:06:17Anthony Pompliano?

  So the idea is if though the house actually isn't worth $100,000 because the market has gotten too hot and people had gotten loose with their lending requirements, now all of a sudden, I actually lend you not the $100,000 value of the house, you're going to buy the house for 200,000, you still put down 5,000, I lend you 195 grand and you default. When I go to liquidate the house, I can't sell it for 200 grand, I have to sell it for 100 grand of what the actual value is, I'm underwater on the loan because I wasn't able to do it.

• 1:06:43Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, now you're talking about a big decline, a 50% decline in real estate, which is-

• 1:06:48Anthony Pompliano?

  I'm just using an extreme example.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  But right, that's rare, right? The problem with Bitcoin is a big drop, let's say a 20, 30% drop, isn't rare. It happens all the time.

• 1:06:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on, because this is really important. I actually think I'm going to get you to understand why Bitcoin-backed loans are very unique to the point where you may go and participate. Ready? In a house situation, if I gave you that $195,000 loan and the house declined, whether it was 5% or 50%, in order to liquidate it, I have to sell a house. And if the market is declining, it is very, very hard because it accelerates like it did in the housing crisis. Everyone was dumping houses because there was so much inventory in the market, there weren't enough buyers, people were in dire financial situation, and so it got worse and worse and worse, faster and faster. Tons of large lenders got in a lot of trouble very quickly. We got the global financial crisis. With Bitcoin loans, one of the things that is very unique about them is if you said

• 1:07:41Anthony Pompliano?

  to me, hey, I have $200,000 worth of Bitcoin, you can only borrow on these platforms up to, let's say, $150,000 against your $200,000 worth of Bitcoins. So it's an over collateralized loan. Now, the value or the advantage that Bitcoin has compared to your house is when the house price starts to fall, there's no mark to market, so it's hard to tell, but you can feel it in the market, you can see comps and stuff like that. But you have to sell the whole house to recoup your cost. With Bitcoin, it's a highly divisible asset. It can be denominated up to a- 100 million satoshis and there's a liquid market. So what these lenders will do is they'll say, give me your $200,000 of Bitcoin. I'll give you $150,000 loan. You go do whatever you want with $150,000 loan. I'm going to take your $200,000 of Bitcoin.

• 1:08:24Anthony Pompliano?

  If the price starts to fall, I give you a margin call. I say, hey, you're now at 70% margin. You have to cure the margin call. If you don't cure.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I understand how it works.

• 1:08:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on a second. I can sell a piece of the Bitcoin into the market. So I don't have to sell all 200,000. I could sell $1,000 at a time if I wanted. And I can make sure that I will never lose money on the loan. Because I can always liquidate the over collateralized.

• 1:08:47Speaker 02

  All right, so let me, let me, let me stop.

• 1:08:49Anthony Pompliano?

  To prevent any sort of default.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  Let me stop you. So first of all, yes. Loaning against Bitcoin is more similar to loaning against stocks than loaning against real estate. Mortgage, because mortgage loans, you know, yes, real estate, it's not all identical. And yes, if you have to foreclose, there's a whole process. And then you got to put the house on the market and, you know, it could take a while to sell it. And but of course, too, when somebody takes out a mortgage, you know, they don't mark the house to market every day. You can't get a margin call as long as you pay your mortgage, you don't lose your house. But if you leverage your stock portfolio, they mark the stocks to market every day. And if the stocks fall by a certain amount, you have a margin call. You can't meet it.

• 1:09:34Speaker 02

  They start selling your stock. They don't sell all of it. They sell what's required, right? The same with Bitcoin. The reason I think loaning against Bitcoin is inherently riskier than loaning against stocks. And let's say you're loaning against non dividend paying stocks. So the bar, the owner is not getting any income. Is that I think Bitcoin is more volatile.

• 1:09:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Correct.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  Than stocks, so more likely. Now, obviously, any individual stock, you know, look at DocuSign today, down 33% overnight. So if you were, you had, you were on margin for that one stock. But I think brokerage firms, when you margin one individual stock that they, sometimes they, they up the margin requirements. They're worried that they could have a big move. But I think Bitcoin is more prone to a, a big move.

• 1:10:26Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  But also, here's what you forget. Let's assume.

• 1:10:31Speaker 02

  That there is a 30, 40% drop in Bitcoin.

• 1:10:33Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's say 50%, which happened last March. I have an example, I don't want to say the company, but I know a business that had billions of dollars of Bitcoin-backed loans out on March 12th or March 18th, whenever it was, and Bitcoin fell 50% in one day. They had zero loss of capital.

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, they're very fortunate at that time, but I would imagine that, let's say Bitcoin were to drop 50% in an environment where a lot of people had Bitcoin loans. And I think a lot of people who have been hodling Bitcoin are probably taking advantage of these loans because A, they don't want to sell their Bitcoin and pay tax. They don't live in Puerto Rico, so they don't want to sell their Bitcoin and generate taxes. They also don't want to get off the gravy train. They think it's going to the moon. They don't want to miss out on all the appreciation, but they want to get out of their parents' basements. They want their own place, they want to buy a car.

• 1:11:28Anthony Pompliano?

  There's also opportunity cost of, there's not many other places to go in assets, right? You can't go back to dollars because that's obviously being depreciated. Gold is down 6%.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  This is my point. My point is that a lot of these people are borrowing against their Bitcoin and they're going out and buying stuff, right? So they don't necessarily have money to meet a margin call if they get it because they spent it on a car, they spent it on a vacation, they borrowed against their Bitcoin. So let's say you get a big drop in the price of Bitcoin, 50%, and now the margin calls go out and the people are like, "I don't have any money, I spent it." "Okay, well, we got to liquidate your Bitcoin." Well, everybody's getting liquidated at once and where are all the buyers? All of a sudden you have this massive liquidation into a weak market. Maybe the exchange is shut down. Maybe it's like, "Oh, you can't even sell."

• 1:12:16Anthony Pompliano?

  But we had this happen, this is an hypothetical, right? We had this happen in March of last year. What you're saying has some sort of...

• 1:12:21Speaker 02

  There may be way more leverage now than there was then.

• 1:12:24Anthony Pompliano?

  There's less leverage than there used to be. And more liquidity. Yeah, but... There was a 50% drawdown, which I think is a fair argument to say, hey, if a bunch of people are doing this and then there's a mass liquidation, right? Obviously, the price falls drastically. My only point is that Bitcoin is the single best collateral for the lender to take for a loan.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  Why is that the best collateral?

• 1:12:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Because even in your example of stocks, I have to sell the full stock. So if an Apple share is-

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  No, you have to sell a full share. But that's still small money.

• 1:12:55Anthony Pompliano?

  But you don't have to sell the full share of Bitcoin in order to continue to protect the loan.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  I mean, that's, that's ridiculous. So a share of stock might be $10 a share, $50 a share. I mean, people, when people are borrowing $50,000, $100,000, I mean-

• 1:13:11Anthony Pompliano?

  So at $10, how many shares do I have to sell? I have to sell, what is that, 5,000 shares?

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the amount of money, the fact that you can't break a share down into a half a share is ridiculous because that's such a tiny amount of money that it doesn't matter.

• 1:13:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Depends on the price of the share.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  No, you could sell, if I buy, if I margin 1,000 shares, you could sell 99, 999 of those shares. You know, if you, instead of 999 and a half, I mean-

• 1:13:39Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, Joe, you haven't said that much. What questions you got for Peter? I want to know your question, your opinion on stable coins.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, stable to what? I mean, stable to a fiat currency because there's no stability there, so.

• 1:13:53Anthony Pompliano?

  That was exactly what I expected.

• 1:13:56Speaker 02

  If you're talking about stable to a particular asset, I mean, obviously, the best use case for a stable coin would be gold, right? Take a piece of gold.

• 1:14:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Why have you not created a gold coin?

• 1:14:08Speaker 02

  Well, they exist. I don't have to create them. But you can have a gold coin. I mean, this is the closest thing to what the blacksmith did originally with gold was you had a blacksmith. He had some gold and he wrote out a piece of paper, an IOU, and people- Traded that, transacted with it, instead of lugging around their gold, it was like, hey, I got some gold over at the blacksmith, here's the IOU, why don't you take this in exchange for goods or services and, you know, you can go get your gold whenever you want. And so the note circulates as a substitute for the money that I have. You could certainly do that.

• 1:14:46Anthony Pompliano?

  But what about stable coins?

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm talking about stable coin, that's stable to the price of gold. I can have an ounce of gold or a gram of gold.

• 1:14:52Anthony Pompliano?

  But the price of gold, this is an important point, the price of gold is not stable.

• 1:14:56Speaker 02

  Well, then nothing is stable.

• 1:14:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on a second, the price of gold in US dollar terms is down 10% on a real return basis.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  Right, but it's stable, it's stable in gold terms, it's stable to itself.

• 1:15:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, well, my shoe is stable in shoe terms.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  Right, but the US dollar is not stable in terms of the euro, or the Japanese yen, or the Swiss franc, every currency is gonna have an exchange rate with every other currency.

• 1:15:20Anthony Pompliano?

  The purchasing power of gold has gone down.

• 1:15:23Speaker 02

  Only over a short increment of time.

• 1:15:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Over the last decade, it's basically flat.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  Well, over the last 20 years, look, it has gone from less than 300 to 1800. And over the last 50 years, over the last 100 years.

• 1:15:35Anthony Pompliano?

  It went up 500%, Bitcoin did that since October 2020.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, Bitcoin is a speculative token, what it did is irrelevant to what gold's done. Gold is a long-term store value.

• 1:15:45Anthony Pompliano?

  It's completely relevant.

• 1:15:46Speaker 02

  But I want to get back to the stable coin. To have a token that is stable to a real thing, like gold, or look, you could have it, you know, tied to oil, you can have it tied to coffee. I mean, let's say I'm Starbucks, and I know I buy a lot of coffee, you know, maybe I want to have some of my balance sheet in coffee.

• 1:16:06Anthony Pompliano?

  It's called a gift card.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Digital token backed by coffee, so, because I know I have to buy coffee anyway, so I can have my money that is tied to the purchasing power of the good that I need. So I think there's a use case for creating digital tokens that are backed by real tangible things that people use and people need, and then you could use those things.

• 1:16:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Like computing power.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  But you, you know, when you have Bitcoin, you don't have any of that computing power. I can't, I can't use that computing power.

• 1:16:36Speaker 04

  It works for you. You hired it.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  No, I can't take my Bitcoin and plug it into anything and power anything. I can't, I can't do anything with Bitcoin. Like I can do something with gold or do something with coffee.

• 1:16:46Speaker 04

  You can. You can buy services with your Bitcoin.

• 1:16:49Speaker 02

  No, but I, I can give it to somebody else. That doesn't count as using it. Yes, I can sell my Bitcoin to somebody.

• 1:16:55Speaker 04

  That's literally using it.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  No, it's not. It's exchanging it.

• 1:16:58Anthony Pompliano?

  But I, but I use, I use the Bitcoin when I put it on my balance sheet. I use that computing power every single day.

• 1:17:04Speaker 02

  But that's not, no, you don't.

• 1:17:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes, I do. Hold on a second. This is another important point. When you put your gold, you got your gold at your house? No.

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  I'm not telling you where I got my gold.

• 1:17:14Anthony Pompliano?

  Where the gold at? You ever seen, you ever seen the meme, where the gold at? Uh, all right. So the gold is sitting somewhere else in, in custody somewhere, wherever it is. Whether it's you, uh, somebody at your house and you've got security systems there, whether it's at a bank, a vault, whatever. You have hired a bank, a custody provider, et cetera, to protect your gold. All right.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:17:34Anthony Pompliano?

  When I buy Bitcoin.

• 1:17:35Speaker 04

  And you're trusting me.

• 1:17:36Anthony Pompliano?

  I hire millions of people around the world to defend to the death my purchasing power.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  No, they're defending to the death of your Bitcoin. Your purchasing power can evaporate because they're defending nothing. See, I'm paying people to defend something and you're paying people to defend nothing. That's the difference. But you're just hoping that other people don't recognize that Bitcoin is nothing and they'll keep buying it.

• 1:17:58Anthony Pompliano?

  But look, I don't need, I don't need anyone to buy Bitcoin.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  Sure you do.

• 1:18:02Anthony Pompliano?

  No, I don't. No, I don't. Because my, because my Bitcoin, I, see the difference.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  If people stop buying Bitcoin, how are you gonna sell yours?

• 1:18:08Anthony Pompliano?

  If I showed you on a computer and I said, how many Bitcoins?

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  They're not gonna stop buying gold. They need gold.

• 1:18:12Anthony Pompliano?

  If I showed you.

• 1:18:13Speaker 02

  No, they're not.

• 1:18:14Speaker 03

  The generational shift of, I think, other people buying gold has gone down drastically.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  So you're telling me that the, the, the gold jewelry industry doesn't exist anymore?

• 1:18:22Anthony Pompliano?

  It's collapsing.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  No, it's not.

• 1:18:24Anthony Pompliano?

  The demand for gold has completely collapsed.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  No, it hasn't.

• 1:18:27Anthony Pompliano?

  And I, and I have proof. I have proof. Ready? Here's my proof. Gold's nominal price, not its real return price, is nominal price is down 4%. It, it, gold has collapsed.

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  No, it hasn't.

• 1:18:36Anthony Pompliano?

  It is down 10% over the last year.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  So what? That doesn't mean that demand for gold has collapsed.

• 1:18:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, that's exactly how price, yeah, but that's how price is determined, right? It's based on supply and demand.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  There, there, I will agree that investor demand for gold has gone down.

• 1:18:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  So people are dropping gold. Investors are dropping gold.

• 1:18:55Speaker 02

  No, investors are more inclined to gravitate to risky investments right now, like Bitcoin, because this is a massive bubble. People are getting rich speculating. Gold is not about getting rich. It's about preserving wealth.

• 1:19:10Anthony Pompliano?

  I feel bad.

• 1:19:10Speaker 02

  People are very, very risk.

• 1:19:12Anthony Pompliano?

  I feel bad. I feel bad. I feel like you're wasting money by hiring the custodian and hiring the vault and hiring the bank. What I'm trying to get you to do is there are millions of people around the world.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  You want me to waste money buying Bitcoin?

• 1:19:24Anthony Pompliano?

  No, no, no, no. There are millions of people around the world that they want you to hire them. They're begging you. Peter Schiff, please hire me.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  To do what?

• 1:19:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Take your life and plug it into the Bitcoin network. The node operators, millions of nodes around the world will go to work for you. Millions of miners will start working for you. They will defend your balance sheet for you. There's literally.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  I would put my balance sheet at risk if I put it in Bitcoin.

• 1:19:47Anthony Pompliano?

  This is how Peter Schiff hires Peter McCormick and Pomp. You.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  But one day I'll be able to hire you to clean my bathrooms because you guys are gonna be broke.

• 1:19:56Anthony Pompliano?

  You put Bitcoin on your balance sheet.

• 1:19:58Speaker 04

  We can hire you now because we're rich.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, for now, yes. You're rich now because you're loaded up on the overvalued asset.

• 1:20:05Anthony Pompliano?

  This is a serious question. If you had two today, if we each had a hundred dollars and you bought gold and I bought Bitcoin with it, in five years, on the US dollar conversion rate, which one do you think would be higher? In five years?

• 1:20:14Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, my guess would be gold, but you know, I mean.

• 1:20:17Speaker 04

  I'll bet you a million dollars right now.

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  Look, you don't, you don't have to bet me. You're already betting. You have all your money in Bitcoin. I have no money in Bitcoin, so.

• 1:20:27Speaker 04

  No, no, I'll bet you a million dollars cold cash. I'll pay you in gold if you want. Five years' time.

• 1:20:32Speaker 02

  I don't need to, I don't want to bet you where it's gonna be. Maybe Bitcoin will be higher. So I don't, I don't, you know, I, I just don't.

• 1:20:38Speaker 04

  So you're saying there's a chance?

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  I don't think it will, but it might be. But meanwhile, I don't, I don't, I don't see any reason.

• 1:20:43Speaker 04

  What odds would you give it?

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  I'm not making bets with everybody. So many people want to bet me on Bitcoin and.

• 1:20:48Speaker 04

  What odds would you give it? What odds, what odds would you give it?

• 1:20:51Speaker 02

  That Bitcoin will be higher than gold?

• 1:20:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, in five years' time.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'm not an odds maker. I mean, it's certainly possible that it could be higher. I mean, I mean, could the bubble go on for another five years?

• 1:21:04Speaker 04

  I'll be $100,000. I'll give you 10 to 1.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Yes, that's pretty good odds.

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  I'll think about it.

• 1:21:12Speaker 04

  You think about it.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, but we have to find some way to make sure that you pay me. You might when Bitcoin crashes, I don't know that you'll actually have any ability to pay me.

• 1:21:22Anthony Pompliano?

  Listen, that was a convenient way to get out of the bank.

• 1:21:27Anthony Pompliano?

  We only have about 10 more minutes. I want, John, you got any more questions?

• 1:21:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm curious what you think about the fact that I can get interest on my Bitcoin as well as price appreciation or depreciation. And it's harder to do that with gold.

• 1:21:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, first I had one thing, though. See, if I actually had that bet and I knew you were going to pay me, then I can actually buy Bitcoin because I have like a free put on it. Because if it goes down, you have to pay. Right, because, but because.

• 1:21:51Speaker 04

  So you see value in buying Bitcoin?

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  Only because you gave me 10 to 1 odds that it was going to, that I guess it's going up. But, but that, that allows me to create a situation where I can't lose, except your creditworthiness is my, is my risk. All right. What was your question?

• 1:22:05Speaker 03

  My question was talking about how I can earn interest on my Bitcoin as well as price appreciation or depreciation.

• 1:22:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can earn interest on your Bitcoin. I understand now because there are services that will pay you. But the question you have to ask is, okay, how is this company generating this money to pay me? What is being done with my Bitcoin in order to generate this income? So the person who is taking your Bitcoin, they either really want it badly because they want to short it and they need Bitcoin to, they need your Bitcoin to sell. And so they're short Bitcoin and they're willing to pay you because that's how much they want to be short Bitcoin and, and they think the price is going down. Or they're not necessarily shorting it. They're just trading the hell out of it. They're just buying and selling it a lot. And they just need your Bitcoin because they don't have it themselves. But A, if they're doing that, they could always lose the Bitcoin.

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  And if they lose the Bitcoin, because, you know, then how are you going to get yours back? So there's obviously got to be a lot of risk.

• 1:23:05Speaker 03

  But banks, banks do that with dollars. It's just FDIC insured. They lend it out on the back end and then they give me part of the yield that they get.

• 1:23:14Speaker 02

  But in that respect, you would think that there is some more productive activity going on, whether it's going into a business or, you know, there's some something other than just financing, trading, or short selling. But also, if you look at the yields that are being paid on Bitcoin now compared to the yield on a bank account, I mean, what are you getting, 5%, 10% on Bitcoin?

• 1:23:37Speaker 04

  It depends.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, obviously, in a low.

• 1:23:39Speaker 03

  You get a 40 basis points on a savings account.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm so to the but obviously, if the Bitcoin interest is much higher, then there must be a commensurate increase in the risk in order to generate that return in such a low interest rate environment. So inherently, people are taking a tremendous amount of risk in order to get that type of return. And the question is, you know, what? And when is it going to blow up? Because you don't get something for nothing. And, you know, you may get this interest, you may get, or you may end up losing your Bitcoin, and in which case your interest is negative, because you'll end up getting, you know, fewer Bitcoin than you deposited. But ultimately, it might not matter how many Bitcoin you have if they don't have any market value anymore, because the price crashes.

• 1:24:27Speaker 04

  Which won't happen.

• 1:24:27Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, Peter McCormick.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Peter Schiff is routinely.

• 1:24:31Anthony Pompliano?

  Peter McCormick and Peter Schiff. Peter, can you move the photo a little bit so we could just make sure everyone can see it?

• 1:24:36Speaker 02

  That's my Twitter photo, isn't it?

• 1:24:38Speaker 04

  I don't know. You look quite handsome there.

• 1:24:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, try to turn it more towards me. There you go, right there.

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  And my wife took that photo.

• 1:24:43Anthony Pompliano?

  So here's what I'm going to say. We have eight minutes left before we're going to wrap up. I'm going to give the floor to Peter McCormick to ask you anything he wants in the last eight minutes. You two can have a little conversation, then we're done.

• 1:24:56Speaker 04

  God. Okay, what I would ask you is, you know, you said lots of people are holding Bitcoin just to get rich. In a scenario, say, protesters in Belarus protesting against Lukachenko and wanting to strike, and not having the money because they were paid by the state, and they were receiving Bitcoin donations from around the world where they had instant liquidity and they can convert them into their money, local money, so they could support their family. Or this case in Nigeria with the protests, the NSAR protests, people there trying to protest against the government and Bitcoin Israel will send them the money. How else would you do that?

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  Well, again, it would be much better to do that. And all the technologies here, in fact, there are coins that you could use. But rather than sending a digital currency backed by nothing, just send a digital currency back by something, most likely gold. So I can send somebody gold digitally, ownership of gold. I can transfer my ownership of gold to anybody in the world, probably quicker and less expensive than you can transfer ownership of Bitcoin or your actual Bitcoin. And they could do that.

• 1:26:01Speaker 04

  So you agree in a cryptocurrency as a solution?

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  Backed by gold.

• 1:26:05Speaker 04

  But you agree in a cryptocurrency?

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  As long as it's backed by something.

• 1:26:08Speaker 04

  Backed by gold.

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  It can't be backed by nothing.

• 1:26:10Speaker 04

  But if it's backed by gold, it suffers from the centralization problem that Bitcoin sold.

• 1:26:14Speaker 02

  No, no, it doesn't suffer from any problem.

• 1:26:18Speaker 04

  It's an IOU.

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  No, but if you have a trusted third party that has the gold and that digital currency entitles you is a receipt for the ownership of that gold, then you own the gold. And then if I transfer that ownership to somebody else, now they own that gold and they could use that as a medium of exchange, as a store of value of a unit of account. It does everything that Bitcoin does without the flaw of Bitcoin and that Bitcoin has no value. But my gold-backed digital currency has all the value of gold, just like the Federal Reserve note had all the value of gold when it was backed by gold.

• 1:26:53Speaker 04

  See, mine does everything yours does without the risk of centralization.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  But you also don't have the security of a store of value because you have nothing. You have fiat. The difference is yours is fiat and mine is real.

• 1:27:05Speaker 04

  Well, mine is backed by.

• 1:27:06Speaker 02

  Backed by nothing. It's backed by height.

• 1:27:09Speaker 04

  You know, I don't think we're ever going to change our mind. I think we've, over the years, everyone's come with rational arguments. I think you've made a choice.

• 1:27:16Speaker 02

  I'm grounded in reality. It's not like I've made a choice. You know, I'm just looking at the rules of economics, you know, I'm not living in a fantasy. I choose reality.

• 1:27:27Anthony Pompliano?

  Would you ever think about buying equity in businesses that operate in the Bitcoin or crypto world?

• 1:27:34Speaker 02

  Well, you know, people talk to me about that.

• 1:27:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's just use the, what I believe is the largest publicly traded, uh, like native company to the space, which is Coinbase. Would you ever buy Coinbase stock?

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  I don't own it. Um, you know, look, there are a lot of stocks, obviously, to the extent that the Bitcoin bubble gets bigger, then companies like Coinbase could potentially profit from that. I don't necessarily think Coinbase is that great a business. I mean, even if Bitcoin succeeds, um, you know, there could be a lot more competition for Coinbase. Their spreads can go down. Uh, a lot of things can go wrong. The stock's expensive. I mean, it's not generally the type of stock that I like.

• 1:28:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. Would you buy, would you buy, uh, last year, MicroStrategy issued a bunch of debt, I think three separate tranches of debt, uh, in these bonds. Now they use it to go buy Bitcoin, but it's a bond. Would you ever consider buying those bonds? Considering they ended up being the best performing bond?

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  No, well, I mean, would I, look, you can always say with the benefit of hindsight, oh, I could have bought them because they, they did it right. But would I buy them today? No. I mean, I don't want to buy bonds, um, where the collateral is Bitcoin. I, you know, I'd rather buy the bonds of MicroStrategy than the stock.

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  Because if Bitcoin crashes and, you know, and at least the bond, you know, and Micro, MicroStrategy could go bankrupt. The bondholders, I think, could still go, you know, go for the equity. But I don't, I, I wouldn't want to buy either. I mean, I don't want to, I don't, I mean, I don't think Brighter Strategy is a business anymore. It's basically, it's a, it's a Bitcoin ETF. It's leveraged Bitcoin ETF. So I would have nothing to do with it.

• 1:29:20Anthony Pompliano?

  $500 million in revenue, so.

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  Well, but I, at this point, I think it trades off of Bitcoin. I think the software is an afterthought and I don't even know, like, how well they're even managing that aspect of the business. I mean, they ought to just spin the business off. They ought to just sell the software enterprise business to another company. So they could just be just Bitcoin. But I, I think they, they just use whatever income they generate from that business to buy more Bitcoin.

• 1:29:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, to buy digital sound money.

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  No, they're not buying any sound money. They're buying, they're buying Bitcoin. Don't confuse Bitcoin with sound money.

• 1:29:51Anthony Pompliano?

  What is, how do you define sound money?

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  Well, you know what's, you know, do you know where the word comes from? Sound money?

• 1:29:56Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:29:56Speaker 02

  It's the sound that it makes, right? When you drop it.

• 1:29:59Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  Right? So what sound does Bitcoin make when you drop it?

• 1:30:02Speaker 04

  I've got some Bitcoin on here.

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  That, that, that's the sound of a phone.

• 1:30:06Speaker 04

  And I can send it.

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  No, no, no, that, I can make the same sound when you drop your wallet that has cash in it.

• 1:30:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on. Look, I know you will.

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  Sound money is real.

• 1:30:14Anthony Pompliano?

  It's a coin. Hold on, that's not the definition. The definition of sound money is that it is outside of the system and no one can create more of it. Gold is outside of the system, right? And nobody in the world can create more gold. We may discover more gold, we might not, but nobody can create more gold as far as we know today. So it's outside the system and nobody can create more. Based on that definition, Bitcoin is outside of the system and no one can create more.

• 1:30:37Speaker 02

  That's not the definition of sound money. You can't just make up a definition and then say, based on my made up definition, Bitcoin is sound money.

• 1:30:44Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the definition?

• 1:30:44Speaker 02

  But also, I, I, I would say that just because somebody can't create more Bitcoin, and I'll give you that they can't. I mean, we don't know. I mean, maybe the miners will somehow be able to decide that 21 million is not enough. And somehow there's gonna be more.

• 1:31:00Speaker 04

  They can't.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  All right, well, I'll just take your word for it.

• 1:31:02Speaker 04

  The node operators won't allow it.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  All right, well, well, we'll see.

• 1:31:04Speaker 04

  Well, they won't because they own the Bitcoin.

• 1:31:06Speaker 02

  All right, but you have to trust that that's the case.

• 1:31:08Speaker 04

  That is the case.

• 1:31:08Speaker 02

  All right. But just because there won't be more Bitcoin, doesn't mean there won't be more cryptocurrencies that pretty much have the same properties that Bitcoin has that can't be used for the same thing.

• 1:31:22Speaker 04

  This argument we need to bury now. This one's not back from 2017.

• 1:31:25Speaker 02

  You can't bury it because that's, that's the elephant in the living room.

• 1:31:27Speaker 04

  Go and create one tomorrow. I'll show you how to.

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 1:31:29Speaker 04

  I won't, but somebody.

• 1:31:30Speaker 02

  I know. There's like 14,000 of them.

• 1:31:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, no one will care about your one.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  How do you know? Well, why, why'd they care about Cum Rocket?

• 1:31:37Speaker 04

  Well.

• 1:31:40Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 1:31:42Anthony Pompliano?

  You were waiting, you waited a whole hour.

• 1:31:49Anthony Pompliano?

  On your way over here, you thought of that one. You had it in your bag. I'm very, I'm very impressed that you held that in your backpack for an hour.

• 1:31:57Speaker 02

  I didn't know you got.

• 1:31:59Anthony Pompliano?

  That was very impressive. That was great. That was great constraint.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  I like that.

• 1:32:02Anthony Pompliano?

  But now here, now here's what I want to say is that my prediction for you is my, this is a Peter Schiff prediction is that within the next decade, you are going to have more exposure to Bitcoin and the crypto industry than you have not to the industry. And here's why. One is more than 50% of your portfolio will have exposure.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  Here's not my portfolio.

• 1:32:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yes, I promise you. Here's why. Every single equity you own is going to interface with this technology.

• 1:32:30Speaker 02

  Well, so far, none of them are. So how is all this going?

• 1:32:32Anthony Pompliano?

  That's not true. That's not true.

• 1:32:33Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 1:32:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you hold the S and P 500?

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:32:36Anthony Pompliano?

  You don't hold the S and P 500? You have no S and P?

• 1:32:38Speaker 02

  I, I've heard of it. Yes, I don't own the S and P.

• 1:32:40Anthony Pompliano?

  You don't own any of it?

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  Well, I own a couple of stocks in the S and P.

• 1:32:44Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay. Do you own QQQ?

• 1:32:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:32:46Anthony Pompliano?

  No?

• 1:32:47Speaker 02

  No, but I own the S and P. I, I, I own Chevron. I own Exxon.

• 1:32:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay, they're both, they're both. Exxon and Chevron will both mine Bitcoin before the end of the decade.

• 1:32:58Speaker 02

  Why would they mine Bitcoin?

• 1:32:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Because it's the single most valuable thing they can do to monetize their energy production. There's nothing in the world that they can make more money on than turning that energy production into Bitcoin.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  Well, you know.

• 1:33:09Anthony Pompliano?

  That's why every oil and gas organization all throughout Texas and the United States.

• 1:33:12Speaker 02

  Waste of resources.

• 1:33:13Anthony Pompliano?

  Would you sell the stock if they did that?

• 1:33:14Speaker 02

  Well, look, depends on how much money they had to invest. Look, Bitcoin miners are making money now. Some especially, I mean, I, a lot of Bitcoin miners live in my neighborhood. There's a bunch of them. I can see how much money they're making. You know, there's funny, people are like, oh, Peter, you know, you, do you regret not buying Bitcoin, you know, a year ago? No, I regret not buying more residential real estate on my block because that's gone up fivefold. Way more than Bitcoin.

• 1:33:40Anthony Pompliano?

  No, Bitcoin's gone up more than five.

• 1:33:41Speaker 02

  Not in the last year.

• 1:33:42Anthony Pompliano?

  When is the first time you heard about Bitcoin? Was it 20?

• 1:33:44Speaker 02

  Not the last year.

• 1:33:46Anthony Pompliano?

  Bitcoin has. Since the beginning of 2020, stuff had gone up.

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  No, no, this 20, in 2021.

• 1:33:51Anthony Pompliano?

  Oh, in 2021, yeah.

• 1:33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Because all you Bitcoin guys are coming into my neighborhood, paying crazy prices for houses.

• 1:33:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Hold on a second.

• 1:33:57Speaker 02

  But.

• 1:33:58Anthony Pompliano?

  The housing prices didn't go up 5X.

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  Yes, they did. You, you don't live there. You don't know.

• 1:34:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What, what, how much did the houses cost last year?

• 1:34:05Speaker 02

  A, a, a, a fourth or a fifth of what they cost this year.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  I don't even want to tell you where my house is worth.

• 1:34:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, I listen, I've done remote reviews with you. You still have dial up internet. So you can't cost that much. All right. Last thing is you're not only going to have your entire equity portfolio is going to have exposure to this because every single business is going to start to play in this, whether it's the oil and gas companies, whether it's them putting Bitcoin on their balance sheet, whether it's them interfacing with the Lightning Network for payments, they're all going to participate. Second is that from a real estate perspective, you're going to see more and more of them start doing the exact same thing. Across many different cities in the world, people are starting to accept Bitcoin as part of their strategy. Some of that is for marketing purposes. Some of that is because they hold it on their balance sheet, but it's going to happen. Lastly, is that a lot of the passive income that you have or yield generation type income,

• 1:34:57Anthony Pompliano?

  let's say, bonds or various types of debt, they're going to start to incorporate it as well. Because what you're going to see is that CalPERS, what is that? I think it's the largest pension fund in the United States. CalPERS recently just said they're going to go more into alternative assets. They're going to start taking on leverage. What they're going to find out is that it's going to be much better for them to buy the exact same fixed income that they have and instead divert 1% to 2% of every single piece of fixed income into Bitcoin, put what is a asset that continues to appreciate with that low volatility asset and it will still outperform all the other bonds.

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  All that is just pie in the sky, you know, assumptions that you're making.

• 1:35:34Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, a nation state is issuing a billion dollar Bitcoin backed bond. That's not pie in the sky.

• 1:35:38Speaker 02

  Which nation state are you talking about?

• 1:35:40Anthony Pompliano?

  El Salvador.

• 1:35:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, who? El Salvador? So that that's your example is mass great adoption. You got El Salvador been conned into doing this? I mean,

• 1:35:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, but we've got to start with outliers.

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that you're going to start and stop with El Salvador.

• 1:35:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Russia is a net seller of gold.

• 1:35:54Speaker 04

  Paraguay is making mining illegal for their excess hydro power.

• 1:35:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, look, all this is part of the hype to try to get people to buy. Meanwhile, Bitcoins hasn't been going up. I don't know if you bothered to check, but despite all your pumping.

• 1:36:06Anthony Pompliano?

  What percentage of your portfolio is gold? Since July, it's up almost 2x. Since July, it's up almost 2x.

• 1:36:12Speaker 02

  No, but well, I mean, but it's still below the the April high.

• 1:36:16Anthony Pompliano?

  It hit $69,000. Nice. It's $69,000.

• 1:36:19Speaker 04

  Weeks ago, three weeks ago.

• 1:36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's at fifty, what, fifty-six now, fifty-seven? It was at sixty-five in April of this year. So despite all the pumping from then, it's it's lower than it was back then.

• 1:36:29Speaker 04

  It was at a dollar.

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  Gold is down four percent. I'm not talking about back then. I'm talking about now. You know, why isn't it already, why isn't it at a hundred thousand? You know, how many people have come on, I see on television all the time, they still have hundred thousand dollar price targets for the end of the year, even today. There's less than a month ago.

• 1:36:45Speaker 04

  Peter, Peter, Peter, hold on, hold on, hold on. Didn't you say gold was going to hit five thousand?

• 1:36:50Speaker 02

  It will.

• 1:36:52Speaker 02

  I never made a hat out of it, though.

• 1:36:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's because you're not as entrepreneurial as me.

• 1:36:59Speaker 02

  But you got people saying it's going to be at a hundred thousand. No, are you guys still thinking it's going to be a hundred thousand this year? Is that still your forecast?

• 1:37:07Speaker 04

  I don't.

• 1:37:07Speaker 02

  All right, finally. All right, I still hear, I still see people come on CNBC picking this year a hundred thousand.

• 1:37:14Anthony Pompliano?

  I think on a probability basis that there's still a chance. Doesn't mean that it's guaranteed to happen, but I think that there's still a very good chance.

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  There's always a chance. You're going to bet me on a hundred thousand? By the way, you don't think it's going to go?

• 1:37:23Speaker 04

  No, I don't think it is.

• 1:37:24Anthony Pompliano?

  You give me a hundred to one odds on a hundred grand by the end of the year?

• 1:37:28Speaker 02

  Look, you know, you may have a one percent chance.

• 1:37:31Anthony Pompliano?

  No, would you give me a hundred to one odds on a hundred grand by the end of the year?

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  No. Because there probably, there might be a one in a hundred shot that it could happen.

• 1:37:39Anthony Pompliano?

  Would you give me five to one odds on a hundred grand by the end of the year?

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  Hmm. I mean, I, so what are you betting? Run some numbers. I doubt, I doubt it's going to be.

• 1:37:52Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, before we finish up here, what do you want us to send people? What, where, where are you talking about gold that we could send people?

• 1:38:00Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I don't just constantly talk about gold.

• 1:38:03Speaker 04

  No, you constantly talk about Bitcoin.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  I don't constantly talk about it either.

• 1:38:08Speaker 04

  You've revived your career by leveraging Bitcoin.

• 1:38:11Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:38:11Anthony Pompliano?

  You're the biggest Bitcoin promoter in the world, by the way.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, if anybody is bought Bitcoin because of me, I apologize. I'm sorry.

• 1:38:20Anthony Pompliano?

  They made money. I know. It's really bad. They made money.

• 1:38:22Speaker 02

  So, well, only if they sell. You don't make money if you, if you don't sell. If you're just holding on.

• 1:38:27Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, where do you want us to send people?

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  Look, but what I do most of the time is I talk about the economy.

• 1:38:33Anthony Pompliano?

  True. You do understand the economy better than most.

• 1:38:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:38:36Speaker 04

  We agree on the problem.

• 1:38:37Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:38Speaker 02

  And so I talk about the economy. I talk about current events. I talk about politics. I talk about the financial markets and then I talk, you know, about gold. I talk about Bitcoin and, you know, stuff like that. So people should on a regular basis, listen to my podcasts. I'm going to record one probably tomorrow morning because I'm going to be busy most of today, but I gotta wake up early tomorrow, which will be tough because I'm going to be out late tonight. But I would record another podcast. So you go to Schiff Radio.

• 1:39:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Schiff Radio?

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  Schiffradio.com is where my podcast is.

• 1:39:16Anthony Pompliano?

  There's podcasts now. The radio is outdated.

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  But that's the URL.

• 1:39:19Anthony Pompliano?

  But you could create another one called SchiffPodcast.com and then it could re.

• 1:39:24Speaker 02

  I'm gonna buy that. I'll sell it to you.

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  But, but, you know, it's a Peter Schiff Show is on Schiffradio.com, but also on my YouTube channel. You can go and check it out there. And, and if you want somebody to manage your portfolio, that's what I do for a living. I manage equity portfolios at EuroPacific Asset Management. That's my Puerto Rico company. And you can go to, the website is EuropacFunds, E-Pac, E-P-A-C funds.com.

• 1:39:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  Or EuroPacific Capital, Europac.com is the website.

• 1:39:58Anthony Pompliano?

  How many websites you got? You're like a watch dealer. You're like, which one do you want?

• 1:40:01Speaker 02

  A couple of different websites. Yeah, a couple of companies.

• 1:40:03Anthony Pompliano?

  We're good on the websites.

• 1:40:04Speaker 02

  If you want to buy gold, there's Schiff Gold.

• 1:40:06Anthony Pompliano?

  Nobody wants to do that.

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. None of you, none of your, well, you know, just in case.

• 1:40:09Anthony Pompliano?

  Demand has collapsed.

• 1:40:10Speaker 02

  It hasn't collapsed. You know, gold's, gold's almost 1800 an ounce. How do you figure collapse?

• 1:40:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Well, because it's down 4% over the last year.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  So what?

• 1:40:20Anthony Pompliano?

  So what?

• 1:40:20Speaker 02

  Gold is pretty close to its high. The highest it's ever been in history.

• 1:40:25Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, and I'm almost a fucking unicorn, but that doesn't count for anything. I'm almost a unicorn. That doesn't count for anything.

• 1:40:31Speaker 02

  You're almost a unicorn.

• 1:40:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, you're, you're kind of sort of close to the all time high and I'm kind of sort of a unicorn. My brother's almost a mermaid. Like, what?

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  No, you're talking about this big collapse in the price of gold. Gold's eight, almost 1800 dollars an ounce.

• 1:40:45Anthony Pompliano?

  But isn't this when it should have performed? The best.

• 1:40:47Speaker 02

  Well, I yeah, ironically.

• 1:40:49Anthony Pompliano?

  Gold is up over 10 years.

• 1:40:52Anthony Pompliano?

  Listen, gold, gold is up over 10 years on a nominal basis, 3%. I literally can go get more interest at a crypto company than gold has done in 10 years. I am poor if I bought.

• 1:41:05Speaker 02

  The reason for that is because the 10 years prior, it went from 270 to 1900.

• 1:41:11Anthony Pompliano?

  Is that a big move in gold? Is that a big move in gold?

• 1:41:14Speaker 02

  It's an enormous move up in gold.

• 1:41:16Anthony Pompliano?

  Man, you're playing with little boy.

• 1:41:17Speaker 02

  Short period of time.

• 1:41:17Anthony Pompliano?

  That's little boy numbers.

• 1:41:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, in the real world, that's a big move. And so gold got overextended. And of course, what happened was, you know, the dollar had a big rally. People, you know, became very confident in the Federal Reserve and which to me makes no sense. And how people are not losing confidence in the Fed is beyond me. But apparently they still, they still trust the Fed. They still think these guys know what they're doing. And so, you know, they've sold gold because they expect the Fed to do the impossible. But, you know, look, the guys that are not buying gold are the same people that were buying subprime mortgages. You know, they, they don't understand the problem. They're oblivious to it and they're wrong.

• 1:42:03Speaker 02

  And, you know, they're missing something that's even more obvious than what, what they missed back then. And I'm confident gold is underpriced at its current price.

• 1:42:12Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 1:42:13Speaker 02

  And it's going to have another big move up and people should, you know, be in on it now. I don't, don't just dismiss it because it hasn't already moved up. Because then what are you going to say once it does? You know, then, you know, you know, you, you, you live by a weak gold price. You're going to die by a strong gold price.

• 1:42:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Peter McCormick, where do you want us to send people?

• 1:42:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, like I'm a Bitcoin guy, obviously, like you're a gold guy. And that's what I talk about every day. So look, if you want to learn about Bitcoin, then you should just follow one of the smartest people there is. One of my best friends, which is Spencer K. Schiff. You can find it on Twitter, twitter.com forward slash Spencer K. Schiff. One of the smartest people I've ever met.

• 1:42:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, because he's only 19 and you know, he, he, he's, you know, he needs more experience. He needs, he hasn't lived long enough. He doesn't have the wisdom.

• 1:43:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's crushed you.

• 1:43:03Anthony Pompliano?

  He outperformed you over the last year.

• 1:43:05Speaker 04

  He's crushed you.

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  Um, on his Bitcoin. Yeah, I guess.

• 1:43:10Speaker 04

  Yeah. He's a smart dude. I met him in, uh, when did I meet him?

• 1:43:14Speaker 02

  Well, obviously he's not smart enough.

• 1:43:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:43:16Speaker 02

  But you know, he's smart, but he's young. It's, you know, when, when he gets older, he'll, he'll, he'll learn, you know, the error of his youth and he'll come around.

• 1:43:26Speaker 04

  Anyway, Father Spencer K. Schiff.

• 1:43:27Speaker 02

  But what's your excuse though?

• 1:43:28Anthony Pompliano?

  That Puerto Rico real estate, right?

• 1:43:31Speaker 02

  Puerto Rico, who knew?

• 1:43:32Anthony Pompliano?

  Buybacks.

• 1:43:33Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, it is. But I, I think a lot of it is crypto related because some of the big buyers have been, crypto people.

• 1:43:42Speaker 04

  So they, so they, so they made you rich.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  I'm long, I'm, I'm kind of long crypto by being long Puerto Rico real estate. So, uh, but.

• 1:43:50Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, they made you rich.

• 1:43:51Speaker 02

  Well, I haven't sold. I'm not selling. That's the problem. So it's like, it's all.

• 1:43:55Speaker 04

  All right, ladies and gentlemen.

• 1:43:57Speaker 02

  There are people that are cashing out though. They're the smart ones.

• 1:43:59Speaker 04

  I just want to shout out to the number one Bitcoin show, What Bitcoin Did, available on all platforms, the number one Bitcoin show.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  Is, is his Bitcoin show better than your Bitcoin show?

• 1:44:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:44:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:44:10Speaker 02

  Well, he's got the number one Bitcoin show, but you got the number one business show?

• 1:44:14Anthony Pompliano?

  No, he can have the number one Bitcoin show.

• 1:44:15Speaker 02

  You're number one?

• 1:44:16Speaker 04

  Finally, after all this time.

• 1:44:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, he can have that.

• 1:44:18Speaker 02

  Well, I think what if I've got the number one Bitcoin show?

• 1:44:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Decentralized in.

• 1:44:21Speaker 02

  Because I thought, I think I might have the number one Bitcoin show. I think my podcast is more popular.

• 1:44:27Anthony Pompliano?

  There's zero chance that your podcast is more popular.

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  Yes, it is.

• 1:44:30Speaker 04

  Depends. YouTube, you beat me. I'm usually kicking your ass on the charts.

• 1:44:34Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:44:34Speaker 04

  Yeah. I am.

• 1:44:37Speaker 02

  But check the numbers. But if you, if you added my YouTube, I'd blow right through you.

• 1:44:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, but like.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 1:44:44Speaker 04

  You've been, uh, you've been at the game a long time, longer than me.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  All right, we gotta go.