Dr. Chris Palmer: Your Diet Could Be Causing Anxiety, Depression & Brain Fog (6 Simple Changes to Make Today)

What if we've been thinking about mental illness all wrong? Harvard psychiatrist Dr. Chris Palmer argues that conditions like anxiety, depression, bipolar disorder, and schizophrenia may be rooted in metabolic dysfunction, not just genetics or trauma. Drawing on decades of clinical research, he explains which chemical additives may be harming our brains, why ketogenic diets are showing remarkable promise for severe mental illness, and why recovery is about far more than willpower. Chris also opens up to Jay about the deeply personal story of his mother that inspired him to pursue psychiatry, and why, despite the growing mental health crisis, he remains genuinely hopeful for the next generation. In this episode you'll learn: How to Recognize the Connection Between Diet & Mental Health How to Notice Warning Signs of Metabolic Dysfunction How to Support Loved Ones Through a Mental Health Crisis How to Become More Resilient with Self-Care How to Turn Personal Pain Into Purpose How to Use Fasting & Ketogenic Diets Safely How to Talk to Kids About Nutrition & Brain Health Healing rarely comes from one single fix. Instead it comes from understanding the whole person: body, brain, and everything we feed both. Sometimes the most radical form of self-love is simply asking what’s going into your body, and why? With Love and Gratitude, Jay Shetty JAY’S DAILY WISDOM DELIVERED STRAIGHT TO YOUR INBOX Join 900,000+ readers discovering how small daily shifts create big life change with my free newsletter. Subscribe https://news.jayshetty.me/subscribe Check out our Apple subscription to unlock bonus content of On Purpose! https://lnk.to/JayShettyPodcast What We Discuss: 00:00 Intro 00:22 The Chronic Disease Epidemic 01:54 The Link Between Mental Health and Diet 05:17 What Metabolism Really Means 07:57 The Shocking Chemicals Added to Food 09:55 Why Is The Food System In America So Harmful? 14:45 The Impact of Ultra Processed Foods on Mental Health 16:29 Why Your Brain Actually Needs Certain Foods 17:21 Brain Fog, Depression, Anxiety & Burnout 18:46 Building Mental Resilience 21:48 Self Care Will Improve Your Brain Functioning 23:57 The “Make America Healthy Again” Movement 25:25 The Next Era of Healthcare in America 27:45 A Healthy vs Unhealthy Metabolism 28:30 Warning Signs From Your Metabolism 29:13 93% of Americans Have Abnormal Biomarkers 30:00 6 Steps For Healing Your Metabolism 31:11 The Truth About Alcohol, Weed & Vaping 35:46 Exercise Doesn't Have to Be Extreme to be Effective 36:30 Stop Looking at Screens All Day! 37:10 Why No Single Diet Works for Everyone 38:45 The Power of Eating More Whole Foods 39:45 Do You Know What Your Body Needs? 40:20 What Are Nutrient Dense Foods? 41:17 Why Some People Are Metabolically Compromised 42:22 Dietary Intervention 44:00 The Ancient Power of Fasting 46:17 Why Bipolar Diagnoses Are Rising 50:08 When Medication Isn't Enough 51:24 How a Ketogenic Diet Can Impact Bipolar Disorder 53:06 The History of The Ketogenic Diet (It’s Not What You Think) 54:50 How The Ketogenic Diet Can Stop Seizures 56:20 The Power of Healing 57:47 The Unexpected Grief of Getting Better 59:05 A Life Dedicated to Psychiatry 1:04:15 Keeping a Healthy Dose of Skepticism 1:05:30 Rethinking New Treatments 1:06:55 Advice for Concerned Parents 1:07:31 What Are Epigenetics? 1:11:23 The Worst Chemicals For Brain Health 1:13:30 This Is An Ethics Issue… 1:14:09 Which Chemicals Cause Generational Anxiety? 1:18:20 Dr. Chris Palmer on Final Five Episode Resources: Read | Brain Energy Website | https://www.chrispalmermd.com/ YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisPalmerMD Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/ChrisPalmerMD/ Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/chrispalmermd/ X | https://x.com/ChrisPalmerMD/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jay Shetty?

  This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop. AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet,

• 0:44Jay Shetty?

  AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and is clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose. This episode is brought to you by Orange Theory Fitness. One of the best investments you can make is in your own strength. The choices you make today can help shape how you feel for years to come. Orange Theory Fitness provides a one hour workout to build strength, burn fat, and build muscle with an expert coach guiding you every step of the way. Head to orangetheory.com/onpurpose

• 1:29Jay Shetty?

  to learn more and get your first class free. Orange Theory Fitness, helping people live longer, more vibrant lives. Terms and conditions apply. See webpage in studio for details. This episode is brought to you by AG1. Are you feeling September reset too? Shorter days, longer to do lists, earlier alarms, all those routines you promised yourself you'd pick back up. It can feel like your whole life is recalibrating. And when everything around you is changing, it helps to have a few things you can rely on. AG1 Next Gen is one of those easy habits to keep. It's the clinically backed, comprehensive daily health drink that supports your gut health, energy production, and foundational nutrition all in one scoop.

• 2:14Jay Shetty?

  AG1's ingredients are sourced from quality partners for absorption, potency, and nutrient density to deliver the foundational nutrition your body needs. And alongside a proper diet, AG1 Next Gen meets 94% of nutrient requirements and is clinically shown to enrich the gut microbiome. For a limited time, save 20% on your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro at drinkag1.com/onpurpose. That's drinkag1.com/onpurpose.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Most psychiatrists or neuroscientists will say there's no way that what we eat would play a role in something like depression, bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia. When you actually start to pull back the curtain, it's horrifying.

• 3:05Jay Shetty?

  How do we know if our metabolism is healthy or unhealthy?

• 3:08Speaker 01

  How's my mood? How's my anxiety? How's my ability to sleep? Any of those things should be at least warning signs that you may have impaired metabolism somehow or another impacting your brain.

• 3:26Jay Shetty?

  Chris, it is so great to have you here today and I'm so excited to ask you so many questions. Thank you for making the time and thanks for being here.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me on.

• 3:35Jay Shetty?

  Chris, I want to start with something that I watched a part of recently. You recently addressed the Senate and I thought it was a really powerful speech you gave. And I just wanted the audience to get context. What was the thesis or what was the main approach for that presentation and speech?

• 3:54Speaker 01

  The overarching theme of that roundtable discussion was that here in the United States and actually throughout the world, we have an ever increasing chronic disease epidemic. And so many people focus on the epidemics of obesity and diabetes. And there's no doubt that those are skyrocketing in prevalence. And I was there to represent the mental health epidemic that is occurring concurrently, that we really can't separate physical health and mental health, although many people want to. But I think that as we have these escalating rates of obesity and diabetes,

• 4:37Speaker 01

  we have escalating rates of a broad range of mental illnesses, neurodevelopmental conditions, mental health conditions, mental disorders, whatever term you like, even though those things mean very different things to a lot of people. We have escalating rates of things like autism, ADHD, anxiety disorders, depression, bipolar disorder, substance use disorders, eating disorders. It's across the board, across a wide range of diagnoses. And the bottom line is that what we're doing to address these chronic diseases isn't working and we need a paradigm shift.

• 5:19Jay Shetty?

  And what are some of the surprising sources of what's happening in the world? I think we all know that social media and the advancement of technology has some responsibility. We all know that our, you know, lack of movement and lack of connection and isolation has partly a responsibility. But what are some of the more surprising or some of the ones that you think we need to take more serious know of?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  I think probably for a lot of people, one of the more surprising things for mental health is that the same factors that can play a role in obesity, for example, can also play a role in mental health. And the one that gets overlooked most often is the role of diet or nutrition. You know, if you talk to most psychiatrists or neuroscientists and ask them, does diet play a role in mental health? Most of them will say probably not, that the brain is just a really complicated organ and there's no way that what we eat,

• 6:27Speaker 01

  nutrition, would play a role in something like ADHD or even depression and certainly not something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia.

• 6:38Speaker 01

  By and large, most people in the mental health field believe that those are either genetic, biological disorders or they are largely due to psychological and social factors, trauma, stress, social adversity, and that those are the causes. But people leave out what we're putting into our mouth every day that actually becomes our brain, becomes the neurotransmitters, influences the way every cell in our body functions. And yeah, I just want to point out,

• 7:20Speaker 01

  because this is really difficult for some people to grasp and they think that I'm like making stuff up or they think that like there's no way that can be, or this is highly speculative, this must be speculative.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  And what I'm here to say is that if you actually do a deep dive into the neuroscience literature and the cell biology literature of the mental health field, you know, researchers have been struggling for decades, actually over a century, to figure out what exactly causes mental illness. But numerous lines of evidence have all converged on this thing called metabolism or metabolic dysfunction in cells appears to come up again and again across a wide range of mental health conditions. And those same metabolic kind of biomarkers or studies come up for things like obesity and diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  And in fact, people with those metabolic disorders are more likely to have mental health conditions and people with mental health conditions are more likely to have metabolic disorders. And so it's really a way to begin to put the science together and more importantly, help people truly heal and recover sometimes.

• 8:35Jay Shetty?

  What's wrong about our understanding of metabolism as it stands right now?

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Most people, when they hear the word metabolism, they usually think about burning calories and they think that's what it is. It's just the rate at which we burn calories and that plays a significant role in whether we are fat or thin. Athletes have a slightly more sophisticated understanding of metabolism, so they're into VO2 max and some other metrics of metabolism. And that might make them stronger or faster or have greater endurance so that they can run a marathon or they can run 100 miles or whatever they want to do. And all of those things are in fact true. Metabolism is related to burning calories. It is related to athletic performance, but it is so much more than that.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  A simple way to think about it is it's this foundational process that living organisms use to convert food into energy or building blocks to maintain or grow our cells. From a biological stance, it's foundational in the definition of a living organism. So it's kind of all encompassing. And in that way, the scientists have a hard time arguing with me because they're like, well, if you're saying that, then yeah, of course, mental illnesses have to somehow be related to that. But I quickly stump them when I start asking them about, well, what about the role of nutrition in that process? And then, well, yeah, it's undeniable

• 10:06Speaker 01

  that nutrition plays a foundational role in metabolism. So how do you think it's not related to mental illness? And then they're like, almost speechless, like, well, wait, you've stumped me. That's, no, it can't be that simple. And in reality, it is. It is that simple. And when you really understand the details of it. We can help even people with severe crippling mental illnesses. So, most people don't have a problem thinking that diet might play a role in mild anxiety or mild depression. Most people kind of get that. A lot of parents aren't too surprised that diet or nutrition might play a role in ADHD, for example. All

• 10:49Speaker 01

  that sugar and processed foods and artificial dyes and everything else in our food supply. I think a lot of them aren't shocked. They're not in disbelief that that might play a role in the way a child's brain functions. And those things are true, but I'm also talking about the severe crippling mental illnesses, including things like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It's all of them. They're all interrelated and they all relate to metabolism.

• 11:17Jay Shetty?

  Let's look at it from a macro viewpoint before we go into the micro. When I started learning about a very basic level of some of these things, i.e. what's really in processed foods and what's really going into genetically modified foods and, you know, how things are being processed, even at a very basic level, I was shocked to believe that we could get away with putting this stuff into food. Like, it's remarkable, especially when I looked at the standards of the FDA versus some of the standards in the UK, where they're a lot higher in the UK. I'm not saying they're perfect. But when I came to America, I just saw like, you didn't even, you know, it felt like you could just put anything on the back of a pack, or maybe even skip a few things and people wouldn't be aware. How did we

• 12:02Jay Shetty?

  get that far? Like, how did we get so far away from creating things that are actually good for people, or at least not bad for them?

• 12:10Speaker 01

  It's actually almost somewhat unbelievable that this is the state of affairs. And most, a lot of people, if they're not really aware of this field, will think that the conversation that we're about to have, or that we're beginning to have, sounds like a conspiracy theory.

• 12:25Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Like, it can't be that bad. The government is looking out for us. We have the Food and Drug Administration. They're ensuring that our food is safe. Why are you raising alarms? Why are you scaring people with this nonsense? Of course, everything they put in food is safe, and it's been thoroughly and rigorously tested. To those people who are saying, "Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, don't, don't be conspiracy theorists, people. Like, don't try to scare us for no reason." I want to let you know about, you know, a journal article that just appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, which is one of the most prestigious medical journals in the United States, at least, and arguably in the world. And it just appeared in the

• 13:10Speaker 01

  journal a couple of months ago. And it was about the lax oversight of chemicals and food additives in the food supply in the United States. And in fact, about two years ago, there was an artificial ingredient called terra flour. It sounds so innocent, right?

• 13:32Jay Shetty?

  It sounds beautiful.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  It sounds beautiful. Like, terra must be like a flower and you grind it up, or who knows? Who knows? It sounds lovely.

• 13:40Jay Shetty?

  It does.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  They added this to a new product, a beef substitute. And in fact, over 400 people around the United States were hospitalized, many of them with liver failure.

• 13:54Jay Shetty?

  Really?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Because of this product. And the FDA began an investigation when they started recognizing a lot of people who are eating this food are getting sick. And they looked for the usual suspects initially. They looked for bacterial infections or contamination. They looked for, you know, lead poisoning, or mercury, or something, some contaminant in the food. And they couldn't find anything. And they continued their investigation. And then at some point, they had to start going through the ingredient list. And then they came across this innocent sounding thing called terra flour. And they had to ask, "Well, what exactly is this?" And they went to the manufacturer, "What is it?" And they said, "Oh, that's a new thing that we just added." And here's the kicker. The manufacturer was

• 14:37Speaker 01

  allowed to declare for themselves that it was safe. The FDA doesn't rigorously test these new chemicals that get added to our food. They rely on the manufacturers. It's an honor system right now in the United States. It's an honor system that we are supposed to trust.

• 14:57Jay Shetty?

  No way.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  The manufacturers, that if they decide that they want to create a new chemical and add it to our food and call it an additive, or call it an emulsifier, or a food coloring, or whatever they want to do, they are not absolutely required to rigorously test it. Instead, they can simply declare that we consider this generally recognized as safe or grass, with no requirement of proof that it in fact is safe. And again, that sounds outrageous. It sounds unbelievable. And yet, the FDA just conducted an investigation

• 15:42Speaker 01

  two years ago and concluded that this manufacturer included that stuff. When you actually start to pull back the curtain, it's horrifying. It's horrifying. About 10,000 chemicals are in the US food supply, and many of them have not been rigorously tested for safety, like liver failure safety, let alone, and here's the kicker, and here's the really kind of terrifying thing, let alone what impact do these molecules have on human metabolism

• 16:20Speaker 01

  or the human brain? We don't know. No one knows. Because nobody's bothered to ask that question, and nobody's bothered to do the research. So, that becomes a likely culprit in this chronic disease epidemic, that we're allowing manufacturers to just put all sorts of stuff into our food without testing it. And it's certainly one of the lower hanging, obvious choices in terms of what might be driving our chronic disease epidemic.

• 16:53Jay Shetty?

  It's remarkable when you hear it from that perspective of the idea that we're all putting things into our body, trusting that they've been tested, or at least being hopeful that someone's thought about them being good for us. And not only have they not been tested, they've been added in without much prior thought, or research, or checking. And it's so hard, because you look at so many people who are struggling today, and people naturally, I think, put, you know, take responsibility, and they think, "God, I need to be better," or "I need to lose weight," or "I need to build muscle," or whatever it is that they want to do. But it almost seems like the system's set up against them. We've been conditioned and hardwired since we've been young, eating these products. The chemicals have got into our bodies. And of course, it's harder to

• 17:38Jay Shetty?

  break that habit. So, I feel so much empathy and compassion for anyone who is struggling right now with their health, because it's partly not their fault.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  100%. I actually think in most cases, in almost all cases, it's not their fault.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  That they were children at some point, and their parents were feeding them what they thought was healthy food, and what they are, were being told by the US Dietary Guideline Committee are healthy foods. And what they're still being told are healthy foods. You know, the US Dietary Guidelines, to date, don't mention ultra-processed foods. They don't mention all of these artificial ingredients, because the assumption is they don't matter. The assumption is just make sure you get enough calories, try to minimize saturated fat, maybe minimize sugar somewhat, less than 10% of your calories from sugar, which is a lot still.

• 18:42Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  10% of your nutrition from sugar is a lot of sugar. But they don't even mention the impact of these other substances on human health. And, you know, in their defense, I think 30 years ago, nobody seemed to be aware of much of this. There were very few people, if any, who were really rigorously researching this and really fully understood, "What is this?" But now, we have more than ample evidence, epidemiological evidence, basic science evidence, animal studies, all sorts of things, numerous lines of evidence to all support this conclusion that these foods are bad for us. And I think, again,

• 19:28Speaker 01

  the thing that I really want to drill home for people is that they affect human health broadly. Yes, they play a role in overweight or obesity. Yes, they play a role in heart disease. Yes, they play a role in diabetes and blood sugars. But let's not forget the brain. That's the tricky thing. Because what I'm arguing is that, in the same way that eating these foods, or too much of these foods, can drive your heart to actually become pathologically compromised, to the point of you potentially having a heart attack.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  It can cause your liver to fill up with fat, which impairs its function. It can cause kidney problems. It can cause immune system dysfunction. In the way that all of those different organs are beginning to malfunction, the confusing thing to a lot of people is the brain. Because when the brain malfunctions, it's usually subtle. And it starts, for most people, in the form of things like brain fog, or a lack of motivation, or depressed mood, or mild anxiety symptoms, or inattention.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Like, those are the types of things that most people experience. And those, of course, are ubiquitous symptoms today in society. When you look at the rates of burnout, for example, we have record rates of burnout. And most people would never even associate burnout with their metabolic health, let alone with what they're putting into their mouth every day. And what I'm saying, I'm not trying to exonerate the workplace completely. So yes, many of us are overworked. Yes, many of us are going 24/7. Yes, many of our bosses now expect us to, you know, respond to emails at midnight because there's a crisis at work or whatever.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  And yes, that is extraordinarily stressful. That is absolutely playing a role in burnout. But so too is the actual physical health of our brain. And the reason I can say that so confidently is because I've had numerous, countless people who have done things like changed their diet, or begun exercising, or prioritized sleep, or just taken themselves off of their screen for so much. And their burnout evaporates. Their work situation doesn't change one bit, but their tolerance for it changes immensely.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  And all of a sudden, they go from somebody who feels like, I can't keep up, I can't keep up, I'm never good enough, I just can't do this much work, they're being too hard on me, to, why was I so stressed by this? This actually isn't that difficult. I'm resilient, I'm smart, I'm efficient, my brain is on fire. My brain is like, I just got that report done in one hour. And two months ago, it took me two days to do that report. No wonder I was so burned out.

• 22:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  It took me two days to do the report, when it really should have only taken me an hour to do it. And so when you bring people's brains back online, a whole new world opens up.

• 23:10Jay Shetty?

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• 23:55Jay Shetty?

  Visit MazdaUSA.com to learn more. Consumer Reports does not endorse products or services. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is the chance to step outside of our routine. Travel is a way of slowing us down and shifting our perspective. And with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, every journey becomes even more rewarding. Earn four times the points on flights and hotels booked direct. Enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges, three times the points on dining, and reserve exclusive tables. Learn more at chase.com/sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank. N A Member FDIC.

• 24:40Jay Shetty?

  Subject to credit approval, terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Amtrak. You know that feeling when you're already tired and you haven't even gotten there yet? That's where Amtrak comes in. Leave the driving behind and settle into a comfortable seat with plenty of room to stretch out. Catch up on work with Wi-Fi, grab a snack at the cafe car, or just sit back and enjoy your favorite podcast. Choose a cellar or Northeast Regional and get there without the stress of getting there. Visit amtrak.com to plan your next trip. Yeah. You know, hearing that resonates so strongly for me because I feel that, for so many of us, we know that it's very unlikely there'll be a day soon enough that our workload will diminish. Right?

• 25:25Jay Shetty?

  If you're waiting for that day for your work to reduce and the workload to go down, kind of that's what stresses us out, is knowing that that day isn't gonna come. And this idea of what you just said, that actually, but when you work on all these things, your tolerance grows. And your ability to deal with that level of stress and pressure grows, and your resilience grows. And it reminds me, a couple of years back, maybe even a bit longer now, I remember I had a choice, and I saw the choice very consciously. I either had to slow down, or I had to up-level my health. Because I was working more than ever, I was working harder than ever. And I didn't want to slow down because I love what I do and I'm really grateful I get to do what I do. But I saw that if I didn't improve my health drastically,

• 26:10Jay Shetty?

  taking into account sleep, diet, meditation, working out, exercise, then there was no way I could keep up. It was, it was gonna be downhill. And having made all those changes, not that I perfected them and I'm still in the process of always iterating and trying to get better at all of them and strengthen different parts, but I found myself having a much greater capacity than I ever imagined of what my body and mind are capable of doing. And again, I'm grateful, I am lucky I get to do what I love. So there's that element for sure, that makes a big difference. But what you're saying is so true, that my resilience and my tolerance for the amount of what I do is far greater than it would have been. And so I love that we're not living in this fake land of,

• 26:54Jay Shetty?

  oh yeah, there'll be a day when, you know, you'll only have to do 50% of that report. No, you're still gonna have to do that report, but maybe it won't stress you out as much.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  In one way, this comes down to something that seems so obvious. When you say it, it's like, everybody's like, yeah, we've heard that a million times, that's so cliche, like, it doesn't really mean anything. And that is self-care. That if you're working really hard, it's actually even more important that you take time out to meditate or to prepare a healthful meal instead of grabbing junk food already prepared, ultra-processed. It's even more important that you take enough time to get adequate sleep. Even though you feel like you're on a treadmill and you can't keep up, by not sleeping,

• 27:48Speaker 01

  you're slowing down your brain capacity the next day. And now you get even further behind in your work. And then you feel the need to stay up even later, trying to catch up. And now you're even more sleep deprived. And now your brain is really not firing on all cylinders. So the soundbite recommendation is self-care. And everybody's like, yeah, we've heard that a million times, that's so worthless, don't tell us something we haven't heard. And yet, so many Americans and people around the world are getting trapped in these vicious cycles where they're not doing it. I think that when we take enough time, it's not even take time to slow down,

• 28:33Speaker 01

  because I love what you just said. I want people to live life with vigor. I want people to have passion. There are so many problems in the world. We need people to be passionate and like, step up and like, be there. Be there for your career, be there for other people, be there for your family, be there for your friends. That means doing stuff. It doesn't mean slowing down and watching Netflix all night. It means doing stuff. But make sure that you're doing enough self-care so that that engine can keep running. And so that that passion remains.

• 29:17Jay Shetty?

  Do you feel the right people were in the room that day who heard you that can make a change? Where do you feel the change from a macro level needs to come from? And do you think we're in a phase where we're gonna go into that change? Or do you not feel hopeful?

• 29:34Speaker 01

  It ends up getting really complicated, especially in terms of the politics. Because, you know, we had an election. And I've spoken with a couple of reporters who actually said that roundtable discussion really put the Make America Healthy Again movement on fire. And really allowed it to spread. The reality is that we have a new incoming administration. I want to just say for the record, I fully recognize how politically divisive the election has been,

• 30:17Speaker 01

  how some people are not at all happy about the election results. Some people are terrified, what's gonna happen? Some people are angry, I'm hearing from those people all the time. And yet, I want to say that there are opportunities as well. And I think that, right now, especially in healthcare and the National Institutes of Health,

• 30:45Speaker 01

  That there are going to be some disruptive changes coming. Time will tell whether that ends up being a good thing or a bad thing. And the thing that I'm most hopeful about is that a national conversation has begun.

• 31:05Jay Shetty?

  Begun, yeah.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  And just the other day, we had Senate hearings largely with Democrats. And we heard from staunch liberal Democrats like Cory Booker and Bernie Sanders and others, who were having the exact same conversations that we had in that conservative Republican Senate roundtable discussion.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  And I think that is hopeful. Because despite the political animosities and despite all the things that we are going to disagree on, make no mistake, like, people sometimes do ask me, like, what side do you take? I don't take a side. I'm a human being with complex perspectives on a lot of different issues. I don't think there's one human being on the planet that I would say I agree on everything with.

• 32:07Jay Shetty?

  So it's probably wise, yeah.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  So I am going to have my own, sometimes very strong opinions on different issues. But what we can all agree on is that there is this chronic disease epidemic, that it is primarily metabolic health disorders and mental health disorders. And we need to put together that science. And once and for all, we need to start doing something about it. And that includes taking on corporate corruption that is largely playing a role in this. To come back, like, concretely, what does that mean? To come back to what we just talked about a little bit ago. Manufacturers should not be allowed to introduce brand new chemicals into food that is sold in the United States without rigorous testing.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Why on earth does anybody think that's a good idea?

• 32:59Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  We have more than enough chemicals to choose from that are already not tested. So we've got a lot of work to do to try to catch up. But why do we need even more new ones? We don't.

• 33:10Jay Shetty?

  For sure, for sure. Switching to the more micro, how do we know if our metabolism is healthy or unhealthy? How do we feel it?

• 33:18Speaker 01

  You know, so I'm really focused on the brain effects. And unfortunately, there are not objective tests that people can go out and get. So you really do have to just subjectively think through, how's my mood? How's my anxiety? How's my ability to sleep? How's my use of substances? How are my relationships? How do I interact with others? Am I having panic attacks? Any of those things, especially when they're occurring for no clear reason, should be at least warning signs that you may have impaired metabolism somehow or another impacting your brain.

• 34:03Speaker 01

  The good news is that there are some concrete biomarkers that we can all use. And those are usually the biomarkers for what we call metabolic syndrome. And those biomarkers include low HDL cholesterol, high triglycerides, high blood sugar, so pre-diabetes, insulin resistance, whatever it gets called, high blood pressure, and then abdominal obesity or extra abdominal fat. The shocking news for any of your listeners who don't know this is that 93% of Americans currently have one or more abnormalities.

• 34:47Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Among those biomarkers. Leaving the brain out of it. In order to be considered metabolically healthy, you would have to have none of those five biomarkers. And only 7% of American adults currently gets that. So unfortunately, this really is an epidemic, a chronic disease epidemic of metabolic and mental health dysfunction.

• 35:15Jay Shetty?

  Let's say people are experiencing those things, as you mentioned. So fluctuation in mood, they're experiencing brain fog, they're experiencing low energy. Where should they start?

• 35:27Speaker 01

  The basics that I think people can really do on their own. And I'll start there. And I just want to say as a caveat, because I'm a psychiatrist who treats like schizophrenia and bipolar. And so those, those parents are listening to me like, don't give me this fluff. Don't like, give me the real stuff.

• 35:43Jay Shetty?

  Let's go to that afterwards.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  And we can, we can get to that. But for the overwhelming majority of adults and even children, I would say it breaks into the six pillars of what we call lifestyle medicine. And so we're going to look at diet, nutrition, movement or exercise, sleep, minimizing or reducing harmful substances, if you happen to use any of them, stress reduction practices like meditation or mindfulness. And then usually that sixth bucket, people will talk about relationships on purpose. I like to broaden it to purpose. And I think that's one of the primary roles, and certainly not the only, but one of the primary roles that relationships serve.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  So I kind of say relationships slash purpose.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  So all of your listeners are already all over purpose and relationships and meditation and mindfulness, reducing harmful substances. It's pretty obvious. I'm talking about alcohol, marijuana, smoking, vaping, those kinds of things. So those are not good for you. No matter what you've heard, no matter who said this vape is really good for you, it's really not good.

• 36:57Jay Shetty?

  Why is it no good? What's it doing?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And so it depends on what's in the vape. But we are actually not designed to inhale chemicals into our lungs.

• 37:06Jay Shetty?

  Interesting.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  Our lungs are not supposed to have this vape chemical in them. And, you know, there've been extreme examples where people actually develop life-threatening kind of pneumonia type situations from possibly contaminated vapes. But we know from long-term studies that people who are vaping are more likely to still have health conditions on that specific topic. If somebody is smoking tobacco and they can't stop smoking tobacco, is vaping better for them? Yes, it is better for them. So if you're moving from smoking cigarettes, you cannot quit. But maybe you could just vape instead of smoking cigarettes?

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Then go ahead, start vaping. But then at some point, I want you to stop vaping because vaping is not healthy for you. And then it really depends on the substance that it's in it. Because people are vaping THC, they're vaping nicotine, they're vaping all sorts of things. And the tragic news is, even when people switch from smoking cigarettes to vaping nicotine, more often than not, the nicotine concentrations are stratospheric compared to what they were smoking. And so they end up getting even more addicted to nicotine than they ever had been. And now they really can't stop.

• 38:31Jay Shetty?

  What's marijuana doing to the brain?

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Marijuana actually has a lot of constituents. If you're talking about the whole plant, it's got a lot of different chemicals in it. Some that might be neutral, some will argue might be beneficial. CBD is the most commonly touted one that might have some benefits for people. I think what we can unequivocally say is that THC is bad for the human brain. So THC does a lot of different things. It's interacting with these receptors throughout our brain and body. It makes your heart rate go up. You know, it's central to my, some of my science work is it can impair mitochondrial function.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  So these tiny things in our cells called mitochondria, it can impair their ability to function. And at the end of the day, the end result is that we know that people who smoke a lot of marijuana will have cognitive impairment, they will have impairment in motivation. Now, this is probably not a shock to most people. So imagine the teenage boy in his parents' basement, playing video games all day, smoking weed. He's less than motivated and he's relaxed about it. He's not bothered that he's not doing a lot. He's not bothered that his brain doesn't work all that great because he's relaxed.

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Not a great way to go through life and certainly not a great way to have purpose in your life and relationships and everything else. But more importantly, it can impair brain function over time. And the most striking evidence that we have is that THC can increase risk for psychosis. And we know that from animal models. So you can take an animal that has no choice in whether they're getting something or not. We can give them THC and they can develop severe brain conditions, like conditions. We've, we have a lot of human data, more epidemiological data, because we can't do

• 40:38Speaker 01

  a randomized controlled trial of 1,000 kids and have half of them smoke marijuana every day and half of them not. That would never be approved by an ethics board. So instead, we have to look at people who are smoking versus not smoking and seeing, are they more likely to develop psychotic disorders? And in fact, it seems that they're probably about four times more likely to develop something like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder than people who don't. So marijuana, not good. Alcohol, similar kind of story, not good for your brain, not good for metabolic health. You know, I think most people probably know the exercise recommendation, move, try to build muscle.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Like, even if you're a couch potato right now and really overweight, just anything. Walk around your living room. Do some squats. Do one or two jumping jacks, like anything, just start somewhere. And then I would probably encourage people to try to get outside. If they're really new to movement, try to go outside because you're getting like, Multiple interventions at that point. You're getting away from a screen. So don't walk outside with your cellphone in front of your face. Walk outside and just enjoy nature. Like, try to be mindful of your environment. Even if you're in the city, you can still look at the sky and see the clouds

• 42:03Speaker 01

  or look at what trees might be around or any little corner park or something.

• 42:09Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  So that can become an intervention where now you're getting some sunlight. Now you're out in nature. Now you're practicing some mindfulness as you're moving your legs and walking around. You're getting away from screens for at least a little bit of time and that can give your brain a break. So lots of ways to do movement, all the way up to do CrossFit. Go run a marathon, like whatever you want to do.

• 42:35Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  And then nutrition, honestly, nutrition is the most complicated story. And I think the first thing that I want to just say for everyone is that there's not a one size fits all nutrition strategy for all humans. And why is that? Because different humans have different sensitivities, allergies, preferences. They have different gut microbiota. They have different genetics and epigenetics that they inherited from their parents. They have all sorts of differences. And so some people are going to do really well on one type of diet. Some people might do really great with whole grain foods

• 43:16Speaker 01

  and others might have gluten insensitivity in the extreme form celiac disease. And that person is going to do horribly with whole grain foods. And so there's no one size fits all. Other people might do great with nuts. Other people might have fatal allergies to nuts. We just have to like acknowledge people are different. And that's one of the things that I'm always challenged by in even like podcasts or interviews is people are like, well, give me the three recommendations for everyone. It's like, well, it's not.

• 43:48Jay Shetty?

  It's not possible. Yeah.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, so I want to say it's not that simple, but I don't want people to hear that phrase, it's not that simple, and hear it as it's impossible. Therefore, it's impossible. It's not impossible. It's not rocket science. You just have to know a little bit and you just have to be willing to experiment a little bit. I think the universal principle that I usually recommend, very appropriate based on all of the stuff that we've already discussed about ultra-processed foods is eat real whole foods that your great grandparents may have seen on their table, on a plate, somewhere, somehow. And you can process them yourselves.

• 44:31Speaker 01

  You can make them into stews or dishes or whatever. I mean, you can mash the potatoes. If you're into mashed potatoes, you can, you can do all sorts of things with your food. And I'm not at all opposed to making your food delicious with adding spices and other things to it. But those are all real whole foods as opposed to the things that you buy in a plastic bag from the grocery store that have several ingredients that you have no idea how to pronounce.

• 45:03Jay Shetty?

  The foods and the actual makeup of our diet will look different for everyone because we're so different. But what do we need to know then about markers like inflammation? I think those are the things that are more common, right? You mentioned their mitochondria as well. It's like, these are the things that are parts of us that we need to understand more deeply. And then that will help us figure out, well, what foods are right for us and those that are not. Is that accurate?

• 45:26Speaker 01

  I think it is accurate. And I think about diet and nutrition in actually really complex ways.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Most people think about it as making sure you get enough nutritious stuff to promote health. So the most commonly used term is nutrient-dense foods. Eat nutrient-dense foods and you'll be good. And what's wrong with ultra-processed foods? Well, nothing really is wrong with them, but they are nutrient deficient. You're just eating calories without the good nutrients that you need. And so some dieticians will even say that. Go ahead and eat all, all the ultra-processed foods you want, but then throw in some broccoli here and there. Unfortunately, that's not going to work. So there is a need for nutrition.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  There is a need for nutrients, for all the different vitamins and adequate amount of protein and other things that we need. Yes, that's true. But diet and dietary interventions can be so much more than that. Some people may benefit from losing weight in which we want to come up with strategies to help them accomplish that. Other people can actually be metabolically compromised because they are malnourished or underweight. So think of somebody with anorexia nervosa or a cancer patient with severe unrelenting depression

• 46:59Speaker 01

  who can't eat or just has completely lost his appetite and is nauseous all the time and is now starving to death, really, for all intents and purposes. I would actually argue that they too have a metabolic problem, but it's malnutrition. It's a lack of essential nutrients. And so the intervention for those people is eat more. We need to replenish your stores. We need to get you to have a calorie surplus if possible. So right there, I just mentioned two polar opposite interventions. One group needs to lose weight, another group needs to gain weight. And then there are people who have food sensitivities. So they might do elimination diets or just try to figure out what am I sensitive to? What do I thrive on?

• 47:44Speaker 01

  What don't I thrive on? And then the final category that I usually talk about is kind of a dietary intervention. It can actually become a treatment unto itself. It's usually in the form of fasting or a fasting-mimicking diet. And there are many types of fasting-mimicking diets. Probably the most commonly known one is a ketogenic diet. But there are others. There are plant-sourced, low-calorie fasting-mimicking diets that researcher Walter Longo is kind of known for.

• 48:28Speaker 01

  But ultimately, they are all centered on this process of going without or tricking your body that maybe it is going without even when it's not, which is kind of the sneaky thing about the ketogenic diet is it tricks your body into thinking that it's fasting when it's really not fasting. But the reason that is important to just note is that, you know, people should not fast forever for good health because that's called starvation and you'll die within a week or so. Not good for your health.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  And so this isn't technically a lifelong, healthy diet that everybody should be on. And yet it can have powerful healing properties when done for the right amount of time in the right circumstances. I mean, some people might be skeptical of this. So in case anyone is, I just want to point out every culture on earth has used fasting as either a healing practice or a religious practice for millennia. I don't think that's a coincidence.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  I think that humans in every culture on earth have noticed, gosh, when we fast, miracles can sometimes happen.

• 49:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah.

• 49:58Speaker 01

  And different cultures or religions have attributed the mechanism of action to God, you know, showing mercy and healing or whatever, a variety of other, you know, we're, we're exorcising the demons that were clearly present. And so all sorts of explanations have been evoked over millennia. And what I'm here to say as a, as a physician and scientist is that the science is now catching up to say, whoa, this actually is really doing a lot of amazing things in the body and brain. And it is promoting healing.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Now, if anybody's super religious and they're a little annoyed with me for saying it like that, God was probably involved in biology and physiology too. So if you wanna stick with, this is God's thing, this is what God wants us to do, and he shows mercy when we do it, well, he would still probably work through scientific methods to change biology and make it work that way. I don't know. But that's the thing where we can start to get really sophisticated with using these interventions with the right people in the right circumstances to promote healing and recovery.

• 51:22Jay Shetty?

  Earlier, you mentioned clients of yours or people who are struggling with schizophrenia or bipolar, and you're saying that they wouldn't appreciate these more surface level solutions. We'll start with bipolar, which we hear about a lot more often, I feel. What is it? How many people are struggling with it? And what are some of the recommended steps there?

• 51:45Speaker 01

  So bipolar disorder is one of those disorders that is skyrocketing in prevalence.

• 51:53Jay Shetty?

  Why is that?

• 51:54Speaker 01

  I think that with all of them, with all of the different diagnostic labels, there's so much disagreement about why is that? It's such a critical question and an important question. And I just wanna say for the record, I fully understand that there are different explanations. And the explanations fall into kind of three categories, I would say. Category one, we're just better at recognizing it and diagnosing it. And that's a good thing. It's a really good thing. Everybody's talking about mental health today. We've got On Purpose Podcast talking about mental health. And so of course, everybody is just getting diagnosed

• 52:37Speaker 01

  and getting the treatment they need. But the rates can't possibly really be increasing, especially with something like bipolar, because many in the field believe it's genetic. And that wouldn't change in prevalence over such a short period of time. The second category is disbelief. This can't possibly be true. Americans are just whiny, lazy people. Everybody loves to have a label. They all wanna be special. Everybody wants to be special these days. And they all wanna label or more. And so everybody wants to have ADD. Everybody's wanna have this, that, the other. And there's no way this many people can really have this

• 53:19Speaker 01

  many mental health conditions. And so it's all fake. And/or kind of related to that, people are just seeking pills because they like the pills. So with ADHD, oh, everybody's just wants to be on stimulants. They're all gaming the system. They're all going into the psychiatrists complaining about how they have symptoms of ADHD when they really don't. And really what they just want is they want their drugs. They want Adderall and Ritalin, and they're hooked on them. And that's what that's about. And then the third category is no folks, they're, they're really actually going up in prevalence. And I'm in that category. Not to say that the other-

• 54:04Jay Shetty?

  You're in the third category.

• 54:05Speaker 01

  Not to say that the other two can't sometimes occur. Yes, I do know some people who like labels and probably like them too much and want attention from them. And yes, I do think that we are talking about mental health more, and we are diagnosing people who maybe would have been missed 30 years ago. I do think that's real. So I'm not saying that those aren't true, but I think the bulk of the statistics, because the stats are staggering. With bipolar disorder in the United States alone, the rates have doubled in adults, and they're up exponentially in children and adolescents. And like with children and adolescents,

• 54:46Speaker 01

  just to, I mean, one study found a 4,000% increase in the diagnosis. And that was largely because in the 1960s and 70s, nobody diagnosed children with bipolar disorder. And now we're kind of, you know, if they're a little fidgety and moody and throw tantrums, we might label that bipolar, even though it's not really the definition of bipolar at all. Some people will diagnose that as bipolar and start treating it. The usual treatments for bipolar disorder are, you know, mood stabilizers and pretty much mood stabilizers and lots of other psychiatric

• 55:27Speaker 01

  meds. And the unfortunate reality is far too many people don't respond to those. There are some who respond beautifully to them, and I'm all for that. Far too many don't.

• 55:38Jay Shetty?

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• 57:48Jay Shetty?

  Why are they still being given out if they don't work?

• 57:51Speaker 01

  I think it's because of that half-truth that they do sometimes work for some people. And so you'll have people marching in the streets, kind of figuratively at least, saying, this saved my life. Don't take this away. But for anybody who knows anyone with bipolar disorder, the overwhelming majority of people do not achieve remission and recovery from the treatment. And we, as a field, tell them, you just have a chronic disorder. You'll have this for life. We're really sorry. We don't have cures in psychiatry. There's no

• 58:32Speaker 01

  such thing as a cure. And you're just gonna have to do your best and manage. And we'll do our, we'll do our best to help you. But yeah, you'll probably be in and out of hospitals sometimes. So no fault of your own. You'll be taking your pills religiously. And then the season will change, and you'll have an episode. And we just, we just don't know what to do about that. I think what the real question you were probably asking me was, how could diet play a role for them? You know, when people hear me talk about diet can play a role for severe mental illness, most are still skeptical. But we now have

• 59:12Speaker 01

  absolutely hundreds, but probably I've heard from thousands of people who've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, who have experienced significant improvement and/or remission of their symptoms using ketogenic diets or fasting mimicking diets. And I wanna just say upfront, because some people, ketogenic can even be kind of a triggering word for some people. And I just wanna say upfront, you can do a vegan ketogenic diet, you can do a vegetarian ketogenic diet, you can do an omnivore ketogenic diet, you can do a carnivore ketogenic diet. So there's a broad range of foods that people can eat

• 59:56Speaker 01

  and be on a ketogenic diet. So it's not about plant sourced versus animal sourced foods. It's not about eating bacon all the time. Some people make it that, and that, it can be ketogenic for them, but it doesn't have to be all bacon if you don't want it to be all bacon. And all bacon probably is not a healthy value. For the record, you probably need a little more nutrition than that. Usually the first thing that I say for the skeptics who are like that, there's no way that can be true. This sounds unbelievable or crazy, or it sounds like he's a quack, or he's selling something. A lot of people think that you're selling something. Like, well, actually, I don't get paid any royalties for people who do ketogenic diets. I wish I did.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  I wish there was a ketogenic society that would give me a 10 cent royalty or something for everybody who tries it, but no such luck. I think one of the really important things to just point out for any skeptics right off the bat is that although a lot of people know the keto diet is this fad weight loss diet, in fact, it was developed 100 years ago by a physician for one and only one purpose, and that is to stop seizures. That the ketogenic diet is an epilepsy treatment.

• 1:01:08Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  And it is actually now an evidence-based epilepsy treatment. We have many controlled trials. We have two kind of gold standard medical reviews called the Cochrane reviews that support that the ketogenic diet is a very effective treatment for epilepsy, especially childhood epilepsy, even when medications fail to stop the seizures. And the reason that's so important to point out is that it turns out that we use epilepsy treatments for a wide range of mental health conditions, but in particular bipolar disorder. So a lot of anticonvulsants like dabacote, tegretol, lamictal, gabapentin, others are

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  used for, they were actually developed initially for epilepsy. They're really epilepsy pills, but most of your listeners, if they recognize any of those names, they recognize them as psychiatric pills or psychiatric medications because they're most commonly prescribed for that.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  And so in a way, given that we use epilepsy treatments all the time for mental health conditions, it shouldn't be shocking that a diet that can stop seizures might also play a role for some people.

• 1:02:26Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, wow, I had no idea. That's fascinating. Like, how did we even discover that something that was used 100 years ago for that was possible now to use again?

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  The first published study for mental health was in 1965. Some researchers did a study of women with schizophrenia, put them on a ketogenic diet for just two weeks, and they noticed at least some improvement in their symptoms. Largely, people haven't even really seriously considered it or thought about it. And usually the assumption is that people with mental illness can't do a diet.

• 1:03:02Jay Shetty?

  Right, that's, I mean, yeah.

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  People with mental illness are too impaired. They're really sick. There's no way they could do a diet.

• 1:03:10Jay Shetty?

  But?

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  What I'm here to say is that please don't shortchange them and underestimate their determination to get better. Because I'm getting people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and crippling depression to be able to change their diet and stick with it. When people are fighting for their life, it's really amazing what they're capable of doing, even when they're so impaired. Even when they're so impaired. I'm not here to say they're not impaired. I'm also not here to say it's easy. I'm not here to say like, oh, just tell them ketogenic diet, and then two days later they're going to be cured. That's not the way this works. People need support, they need education, they need a lot of help. They absolutely need a lot of help.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  But it is possible, it is doable. And when we support these people, they can do it. And the, you know, the great news is that although to some people this may sound anecdotal, or Chris Palmer's making stuff up, or whatever, we now have 20 controlled trials underway around the world of the ketogenic diet for a wide range of mental health conditions. Eight of them are randomized controlled trials. And we have several pilot trials, many case reports already published. I actually just published a review article on this topic of how often is the ketogenic diet being used for mental health conditions?

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  We have over 50 publications already published in the literature, and over 1,900 people, 1,900 people who participated in these trials. And the overwhelming majority of them found some benefit. Now, I'm not trying to say all of them were cured of their mental health condition, because mental health is a lot more complicated than just diet. And I'm not here to say any one treatment is going to magically fix everyone, because that's not the way it works. And I hear from people around the world who have suffered from chronic, severe, crippling mental illnesses, and a lot of them are getting full remission, sometimes off of their psychiatric medication.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Sometimes they're able to completely taper off. And even that, like, when they get remission, it's not like this simple process, shocking, surprisingly.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Because you would think that like, oh, if I put them into remission, they should be so happy, jumping up and down for joy, smiling all the time. And there's some of that. There's also this phase that almost everybody goes through of profound grief for the life that they've lost. They recognize, I just lost 30 years of my life to that illness.

• 1:05:59Jay Shetty?

  Wow.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Why didn't somebody give this to me 30 years ago? Because I was in college. I had a girlfriend. We were going to get married.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  And when I became schizophrenic, I lost everything. I had to drop out of college.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  I've never had a girlfriend since. I lost all my friends. I couldn't live independently anymore. I gained all this weight. I've been a pariah in society for 30 years.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  And now I'm better? What am I supposed to do?

• 1:06:39Jay Shetty?

  Chris, when I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, we've talked about the macro, we've talked about the micro, but when I'm hearing you talk about it that way, I'm like, what made you dedicate your life to this work? Because this isn't just something that you do, it's who you are. You can tell by the passion you have for it, the, the energy you have for the people that you support and serve and work with every day. Like you said, you don't have any skin in the game when you look at it from a business point of view. So where's that coming from?

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  I have had my own struggles with mental illness from a very young age in terms of OCD, later crippling depression, suicidality, all sorts of things. And I'm happy to go into that at some point if you want to. But the real reason I ended up becoming a psychiatrist is because of my mother, who, you know, I'm, I'm from a family of eight kids. And when my mom was in her early 40s, she had been relatively quote unquote "normal" up until then.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Raising a family, helping my father run his business, living a normal, middle-class life in the Midwest. A series of events happened in her family that were ridiculously stressful and put a tremendous burden on her. And she had what started as what she called a nervous breakdown, that quickly turned into depression and suicidality, and then pretty quickly turned into psychotic symptoms. And she was hospitalized, she was medicated, she was getting psychotherapy, she was getting all of the treatment that the mental health field had to offer.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  None of it worked. And she ended up living the rest of her life with a chronic psychotic disorder, and it ruined her life. It's not an understatement. She lost custody of all of her eight kids. I went to live with her for a while. We end up homeless together for a while. I mean, it was a nightmare. But she loses custody of her kids, she loses her business, she loses all of her money, she loses friends, family, all sorts of things due to this psychotic disorder. And I saw all of that happen.

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  And I was furious with the mental health field, furious. Why are they so incompetent? Why aren't they helping her? Like, I knew there was something wrong with her. It was clear. She was delusional. She thought she was Mary Magdalene reincarnated. She thought the world was ending. She would get paranoid about people. I mean, all sorts of symptoms. So I knew there was something wrong with her, but I was just in disbelief that the mental health field could be so incompetent. Why aren't they helping her? Why aren't they making her better? They have a hospital. What are they doing? And when I saw what they were doing, I was horrified because they were putting her on medicines

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  that made her seem like a zombie, but she was still crazy. And I was like, what are they doing? Are they poisoning her on purpose? Like, what is that? Like, what are they doing? And ultimately, she's the reason I became a psychiatrist. Because I saw how devastating mental illness can be. It's not that devastating for everybody, thankfully. Some people have mild, moderate things, and that's great.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  But I saw that it can literally ruin a person's life. It can ruin an entire family. And that

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  she was innocent. She didn't do anything to deserve any of that. She wasn't using drugs. She was, there was no blame.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  No way to blame her for any of it.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  And I went into the field hoping that maybe somehow I might be able to make a difference and do something different.

• 1:10:51Jay Shetty?

  Thank you for sharing that. It's incredible that you were able to, you know, turn a pain into a purpose for you, even though I can't imagine how painful it was over those years, just watching that and feeling helpless, I'm sure, at times and hopeless. And do you believe that if you knew what you know now, then, that there were different ways of helping and supporting her?

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. You know, when I went into psychiatry, I became one of those evil psychiatrists who just doled out pills that didn't really work.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  And I felt so helpless and so hopeless for our field.

• 1:11:31Jay Shetty?

  Because you had to?

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  Because those were the only tools that I had available. And people would end up in life-threatening situations. They would be manic and psychotic and a danger to themselves or others. And we had to do something. We had to keep them alive, or I felt compelled to try to keep them alive. And that was the only tool that I had learned about. I always was skeptical of all of it. I always kept a healthy dose of skepticism about everything I was doing in the mental health field, because I recognized this is the same thing that they did for my mom, and it didn't work. So why should we think this is going to be any better? But I felt helpless. I didn't know what else to do. I am now

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  filled with tremendous hope that when we put it all together, when we put all of this science together and we understand some actual interventions that can really be done right now in 2024, like a ketogenic diet. The science of how that would help the brain of someone with schizophrenia gets really complicated fast. I can understand that science.

• 1:12:48Jay Shetty?

  I can't.

• 1:12:50Speaker 01

  Other people don't need to. They just need to understand that you're going to do this diet, and we're going to help you do it, and we're going to coach you and provide support and, you know, and figure out what you can do and what you don't want to do. And it's an achievable treatment. It's a realistic, accessible treatment today in 2024. And it can save lives. What I am most hopeful about is the way that this broader theory can help us develop even more tools and treatments and strategies. And I'm really hopeful

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  it will force us to rethink a lot of what we're doing in our field. It will force us to look for root causes, to use treatments. Some of them need to be used sparingly, I would argue. Maybe in life-threatening situations, but then we need to move on to health-promoting treatments. I'm in my 50s. I don't know how much more time I have, but I think I have enough time that in my lifetime, I believe it is possible that we will see a transformation of the mental health field. And we will look back on the way we treated mental illness in 2024

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  as almost barbaric. And how could they have done that? Like, why didn't they use these other strategies that are so much more effective? I am really hopeful that we may see that day in the next 10 to 20 years.

• 1:14:35Jay Shetty?

  And if there are parents and future parents listening who have, in their family, had a history of mental health, and they don't want to pass it on to their children, what are the things they should be looking at? Is it possible to not pass it on?

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  If you do have genes that increase risk, you have passed them on. It's not your fault as a parent. Your parents did it to you, and their parents did it to them. And so, don't spend any time or thought beating yourself up over that. So genetics do get passed on, and we're not changing those anytime soon. Epigenetics also get passed on, unfortunately, and that gets more complicated. It means that if you've been traumatized as a parent, if you had a horrible childhood, your parents physically beat you, surprisingly, you have passed

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  at least a glimpse of that experience on to your children. When people have trauma, especially prolonged trauma, it causes changes in what I think we can safely just call epigenetics. And that might mean modifications to your DNA. It might mean like micro RNA molecules and other kind of things

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  that actually can get transferred in eggs and sperm cells to new children and can impact their future mental health and metabolic health. Some parts are unchangeable. But the good news, the great news, is that genes and even epigenetics are not the primary determinants of these illnesses. I believe environment, the way we live our lives is. And the strongest testament to that is actually the exponential rise in rates. Our genes have not changed.

• 1:16:44Speaker 01

  Our epigenetics may have changed, but epigenetics can change one way or another. If you are a parent to a child, we're going to do all of the usual, obvious things. You're going to love your child. You're going to provide safety. You're not going to coddle completely. You're going to let them be independent, take some risks. You're going to let them fail every now and then. You're going to do all of those things. You're going to really support and encourage them to have friends and community. You're going to have them move. You're going to have them get outside, all of that stuff. Probably the single biggest blind spot for most parents is what you're allowing your child to put into his or her mouth

• 1:17:28Speaker 01

  day after day after day. If they live in America, there is a very, very good chance they are eating a lot of ultra-processed foods. That is something that most people, it's not even on their radar, that that could play a role in brain health. And what I'm here to say very loudly and clearly is it can play a role in brain health. And one of the best things you could do, on top of all those other basics. So if somebody's living in poverty, in an abusive household with substance use and all, yes, all of that is much worse than the diet. And that's unequivocal.

• 1:18:10Speaker 01

  Abuse, substance abuse, all of that is much worse than what you're putting in your mouth. But for all of the other parents who are like, no, we're already, we live in a loving, safe home. Our child has all of that. We're going, bending over backwards to provide all of that. The one thing that, again, is a blind spot is nutrition. And it's not about your child's not getting enough calories, because I know your child's probably getting more than enough calories. It's not that your child's not getting all the vitamins and nutrients he or she needs. It's that your child is also getting all of these chemicals that have been added to the food that are actually affecting brain function.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  And who knew? Well, increasingly now we do know. And so now we really need to do something about that.

• 1:19:02Jay Shetty?

  What are some of the chemicals that we are convinced are having negative impacts on our brain health?

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  Convinced? I can't, you know, I need to acknowledge the controversy in the field. And there are powerful forces that will work to keep this controversial. And what are those powerful forces, you ask? The food companies that make these products. If I am the maker of Doritos, I don't want anybody saying bad things about Doritos. There's nothing wrong with Doritos. Everybody should be able to treat themselves every now and then. And the Doritos makers will hire medical experts to cast doubt,

• 1:19:52Speaker 01

  to say, there's no way that Chris Palmer is right. There's not adequate evidence for this. That can't be true. Don't listen to him. He's a conspiracy theorist. He's just trying to alarm you. Again, the great news is that increasingly we have Republicans, Democrats, many powerful people finally coming together in a unified way on this front. So I'm hopeful. The precise chemicals, it's really hard to narrow down. The biggest challenge is that we can't do randomized controlled trials in humans.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  If researchers believe that chemical X is harmful, potentially, the ethics review board would not allow them. Even if this is ubiquitous in our food supply, the ethics review board might say, no, you can't, we're not going to allow you to do this study.

• 1:20:51Jay Shetty?

  But it was still going in the product.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  If your hypothesis is correct, and this is a harmful substance, you're going to harm

• 1:20:58Jay Shetty?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  half of the people in your study. We can't have you do that.

• 1:21:02Jay Shetty?

  So it's not allowed in the study, but it's allowed in the food?

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  It would be allowed in the food because it hasn't been proven dangerous. But if you're exposing people to a danger and there's no benefit to them, the ethics board is looking out for the research participants. And if I'm a research participant, you know, you want to test the hypothesis that cyanide is bad for humans. I'm going to give half the people cyanide and half of them not, and just see what happens. The ethics boards will say, no, you can't do that study because your assumption is that this is a harmful thing. And so we can't have you poison half the participants. That's not going to benefit them in any way. So instead, what we do have are animal studies.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  And one of the clearest, most recent examples of potential harm to, with a mental health condition, based on this kind of animal research, is with a substance called aspartame or Nutrasweet. This is found in over 500 diet foods and sodas. It is ubiquitous in our food supply. Aspartame is found in Diet Coke, most other diet sodas. It's ubiquitous in our food supply. And it's largely considered to be perfectly safe.

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  So researchers actually took mice and they exposed them to normal doses of aspartame. So not extra high doses, not toxic doses, just normal doses that somebody who's drinking several Diet Cokes a day might be exposed to. The mice who got the aspartame were more likely to have anxiety-like behaviors. Those anxiety-like behaviors were reduced with Valium, a common treatment for anxiety. And the reason the researchers did that part of the study is they wanted to determine, is this normal anxiety or is this some kind of weird aspartame anxiety?

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  Is this, is this like, are we inducing some brand new type of anxiety? Or is this bread and butter, run-of-the-mill anxiety disorder? And it was bread and butter, run-of-the-mill anxiety disorder. The researchers then looked at the brain function of these mice. And sure enough, they found amygdala hyperactivation. So the amygdala is kind of, sometimes known as like the fear center or the panic center. So that lined up. Here's the devastating part, though, is that the mice who were given aspartame went on to have babies. And those babies went on to have babies.

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  None of the babies were exposed to aspartame. But for two generations, the increased risk for anxiety-like behaviors persisted, which means that aspartame is inducing epigenetic changes that can be transmitted to your children and your grandchildren. Now, if, if, this is mice data from mouse studies. Again, we, we will never, ever be able to do these studies in humans. We can't dissect the amygdala and all sorts. That will never happen. We do have large epidemiological studies documenting already.

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  People who consume a lot of artificial sweeteners are more likely to have anxiety disorders. They're more likely to have depression. They're more likely to have a wide range of mental health conditions. So we've got probably the best level of evidence we're ever going to get already in humans, that this does apply to humans, it seems. But what this means concretely is that if your mother drank a lot of Diet Coke, you might have an anxiety disorder because of that, even if you have never had a Diet Coke in your life. Now, of course, more than likely, you've had plenty of Diet Cokes. Because if your mother drinks Diet Coke, she's probably offered you some. And you have probably also been consuming a lot of it as well.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Now, does that mean everybody who drinks aspartame has an anxiety disorder? Of course not. It's one of probably hundreds or thousands of risk factors. So it's just one way to begin to understand that. But, but that's why I come back to the generic recommendation I make, which is if you are suffering from a mental health condition, or if you want to prevent mental health conditions, eat real whole foods. Just eat real food. And aspartame is not a real food. It's just not.

• 1:25:58Jay Shetty?

  Definitely. Thank you, Chris. Yeah. Chris, thank you so much for your research, openness, vulnerability as well, going into your personal story. And we, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final five. These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. And so Chris Palmer, these are your final five. The first question is, what is the best mental health advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  Accept yourself for who you are.

• 1:26:24Jay Shetty?

  Question number two, what is the worst mental health advice you've ever heard or received?

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Let's talk about your relationship with your father as a way of understanding everything that's wrong with you.

• 1:26:36Jay Shetty?

  Question number three, what's something you used to believe was true about mental health, but you don't anymore?

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  That chronic severe mental illnesses are a life sentence.

• 1:26:48Jay Shetty?

  It's changeable. It's not impossible.

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  They are treatable.

• 1:26:54Jay Shetty?

  Question number four, what's been the most important mental health habit or change you've made in your own life?

• 1:27:01Speaker 01

  Changing my diet.

• 1:27:03Jay Shetty?

  And fifth and final question, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Be kind to each other.

• 1:27:10Jay Shetty?

  Chris Palmer, thank you so much. The book's called Brain Energy. Grateful for your time, your insight, your research, your openness. And just thank you for showing up with so much passion and enthusiasm and energy for what you're doing. And I'm really, really happy that we got to sit down and spend this time together. I know that, you know, I definitely believe in the gut-brain connection and just the value of what we're putting in our bodies and how it's affecting our mind. I think you can, if you're still enough, you can feel it on a daily basis. I love that science backs it up, but I could probably know it just from sitting with different foods and seeing how I feel internally and noticing the difference.

• 1:27:53Jay Shetty?

  And so I'm glad that, you know, all of these recommendations and solutions are coming forward for people to actually be able to make a genuine change in their life and not a misleading version of change. So thank you for your work and thank you for coming on On Purpose today.

• 1:28:08Speaker 01

  No, thank you, Jay, for having me. And thank you for all the work you do to help so many people, millions and millions of people.

• 1:28:15Jay Shetty?

  Thank you. Thank you, Chris. I hope you'll come back again.

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:28:19Jay Shetty?

  If you loved this episode, you'll love my conversation with Dr. Joe Dispenza on why stress and overthinking negatively impacts your brain and heart, and how to change your habits that are on autopilot.

• 1:28:31Speaker 03

  Forgiveness is when you overcome the emotion of your past. And so you feel so good that you no longer want to feel bad.

• 1:28:39Jay Shetty?

  If you loved this episode, you'll love my conversation with Emma Watson on why she stepped away from Hollywood to redefine success and rediscover her sense of self.

• 1:28:50Speaker 04

  It's not that I have stopped doing interviews because I want to hide myself away, because I wanted to be able to have a certain type of conversation that I didn't seem able to find a space for.

• 1:29:01Speaker 05

  Whenever fall comes back around, it always feels like a fresh start. This year, I've been layering in some styles from the new Lululemon fall drop because the weather is shifting and I find I have to be ready for the entire day and not just one part of it. Lululemon's fall line has some really versatile transitional pieces. So I can just wake up, throw on a matching set, add a jacket or a fleece, and head out, knowing that I'll feel comfortable enough to go wherever the day takes me. Check out the new fall arrivals in store and online now at lululemon.com.

• 1:29:30Speaker 06

  Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd.

• 1:29:35Jay Shetty?

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 1:29:41Speaker 06

  Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and the Ravenette.

• 1:29:47Jay Shetty?

  What would happen if I stopped doing it? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 1:29:51Speaker 06

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:29:54Jay Shetty?

  I'm not the first, Nick.

• 1:29:55Speaker 06

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.

• 1:30:00Speaker 07

  Ugh, I hate Mondays.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon swirl bite?

• 1:30:04Speaker 07

  Taylor Hansen? Sure, I'll try one. Mmm.

• 1:30:09Speaker 06

  Hey, let's get back to work, please.

• 1:30:11Speaker 07

  But Taylor Hansen's making my day way better with these new soft and swirly King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites.

• 1:30:15Speaker 06

  Taylor Hansen? Nice. Try one. Mmm.

• 1:30:23Speaker 02

  King's Hawaiian cinnamon bites. There's nothing like it.