#1056: John Wu On Bridging Bitcoin To Other Ecosystems

John Wu is the President of Ava Labs In this conversation, we discuss the state of the Crypto market, bridging Bitcoin to Avalanche, the Avalanche ecosystem, who's building on Avalanche, building a better DeFi 2.0, and what John is excited about in the Crypto world. ======================= BCB Group is the leading payment services partner for the digital assets industry. BCB Group provides payment services in 30+ currencies, FX, cryptocurrency liquidity, digital asset custody and BLINC, which is BCB’s free, instant settlements network for the BCB client ecosystem. Find out more by visiting bcbgroup.com/pomp ======================= Exodus is leading the world out of the traditional financial system by building beautiful and user-friendly blockchain products. With its focus on design and user experience, Exodus has become one of the most popular and loved cryptocurrency apps. It’s supported on both desktop and mobile, allowing you to sync your wallet across multiple devices so you can have access to your funds anywhere. You can instantly exchange around 100 different cryptocurrencies straight from your wallet. Interactive charts let you view an asset’s price history and your portfolio’s performance over time. And maybe the best part, Exodus is integrated with the Trezor hardware wallet - making advanced security easy for everyone. Visit exodus.com/pomp for your free download or search Exodus on the App Store or Playstore. ======================= The Pod Pro Cover by Eight Sleep is the most advanced solution on the market for thermoregulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. Go to https://www.eightsleep.com/Pomp to check out the Pod Pro Cover and save $150 at checkout. Eight Sleep currently ships within the USA, Canada, and the UK. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. John Wu is the president of Ava Labs. In this conversation, we talk about Bitcoin, bridging it to Avalanche, what the Avalanche ecosystem is, who's building there, what are they building, and why? You should go ahead and take a look at these bridges and that ecosystem. I really enjoyed this conversation with John, hope you guys enjoy it as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I first want to talk about our sponsors. This episode is brought to you by BCB Group. With a dedicated focus on institutional payment services, BCB Group provides business banking, cryptocurrency, and foreign exchange market liquidity for many of the world's largest crypto-engaged financial institutions.

• 0:46Anthony Pompliano?

  BCB business accounts allow businesses to load fiat currency and cryptocurrencies for payments, operations, and trading purposes. BCB's clients can trade FX and cryptocurrencies quickly and at scale with market-leading value. BCB's Blink Network is the European crypto industry's first instance settlements network, and one of the first real-time payment networks of its kind to allow free real-time transactions across fiat and digital currencies. BCB's vision is to empower the global financial revolution through sustainable and innovative banking. You can find out more by visiting bcbgroup.com/pomp today. Again, that's bcbgroup.com/pomp today. Today's episode is brought to you by Exodus, the world's leading desktop, mobile, and

• 1:29Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:10Anthony Pompliano?

  Leading desktop, mobile and hardware crypto wallet. Go to exodus.com/pomp today. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep is the single best product that I have purchased over the last three years. It completely changed my life. I'm not joking. Pay attention. The Pod Pro cover, which goes over your mattress by Eight Sleep, is the most advanced solution on the market for thermal regulation. It pairs dynamic cooling and heating with biometric tracking. You can go to eightsleep.com/pomp to check out the Pod Pro cover and you save $150 at checkout. They currently ship within the United States, Canada and the UK. Now I told you, it changed my life. It helps me sleep deeper, helps me sleep longer. I feel much more refreshed and I have better energy. You want to know how I have relentless energy every single day?

• 2:54Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:00Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 3:23Anthony Pompliano?

  John, how are you?

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Pomp, how are you? It's good to see you. I think it's about three or four years since we've done this.

• 3:29Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. I'm doing very well. I'm glad to have you. I'd love to start the conversation. We're going to kind of take a little windy road here because I got a bunch of questions. I keep hearing about Bitcoin bridges to Avalanche. What is that? What are people talking about when they say that they are bringing their Bitcoin to one of these ecosystems?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  So there is a basically, when you're talking about bridge, you're talking about different types of bridges, but you're basically you're enable people to bring assets over from a different chain on to, you know, one chain to chain number two and allow the functionality that you have on chain two that perhaps you may have different experience from chain one. So there is a Ethereum to Avalanche bridge. That thing has generated over $60 billion worth of assets moving back and forth over time. And now there is a Bitcoin bridge. So people who want to hodl Bitcoin but use DeFi, they have the ability to do that through this bridge.

• 4:26Anthony Pompliano?

  And when that happens, like, what is the, at a high level, the technical kind of mechanics of this? Is it Bitcoin and it's being wrapped in some other kind of token? Is it literally bridging over and there's like support for Bitcoin or whatever? Like, how does that work?

• 4:42Speaker 02

  Right. So there's two different or three different methods.

• 4:45Anthony Pompliano?

  Okay.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  One way you're describing is the wrapped concept where you have it on one end and then you have another one called a wrapped version on the other end. There is another way to do it is really you can have, you know, stuff on one side being locked, but then you have a native version of that on the other end that acts as the same thing. So it's not necessarily any different. You're just minting a new asset, whether it's BTC or whatever it is. There's two general ways of bridging across. One is the wrap, like you talked about, and the other is actually just locking the asset value on one end and creating the same asset or a native version of that asset on the other.

• 5:24Anthony Pompliano?

  And when that happens, how much functionality is gained or lost? Like, it's interesting to think about, let's take Bitcoin as one example, and then maybe we use ETH as another example. So Bitcoin may not be as expressive or kind of have as much of the smart contract functionality as maybe an ETH has. When you see that, do you lose or gain functionality in either one of those situations when you do these bridges?

• 5:50Speaker 02

  That's a great question. And generally speaking, from the user's perspective, you're gaining more functionality regardless of whether it's the wrapped version or the native version to another chain. Because you're doing that either because one side is too cheap or too, sorry, too expensive. You need it to transact cheaper, or there are different applications on a different chain. And so the user's perspective is you're not losing functionality. You do it because you're actually gain functionality where you can't do it on the previous chain. From the chain's perspective, obviously, you increase activity and liquidity. So it's kind of like a win-win. The, you know, the ones that are secure and are able to do this well and have, you know, assets that are, you know, secure to the user will ultimately win in these cases.

• 6:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Got it. And so when you think of kind of Avalanche, why are people bridging these assets over there? What's like the value proposition to doing that versus like keeping Bitcoin on Bitcoin Network or something?

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for Bitcoin specifically, there is less functionality. But in general, especially Avalanche's case, you know, there's over 1,000 applications on the chain. It's instant finality, it's super fast. There's lots of dApps in DeFi, as well as gaming applications. So just a lot of utility and functionality for Bitcoin users who may want to keep their Bitcoin because they think the price is too low, but also get to use the functionality associated with a chain like Avalanche.

• 7:16Anthony Pompliano?

  So let's kind of keep going down this rabbit hole because it's actually pretty interesting to me. On Bitcoin, there would be two, I would say, scaling solutions. And this can be super generalized, right? But there's like Layer 2 solutions like the Lightning Network, and then there's kind of side chain things, Liquid and a bunch of others. This is, it sounds like it's almost like a third value proposition that people would make is like, hey, you could take the asset, you could bridge it either natively or kind of in a true bridge in a wrapped way. And then you could gain speed, efficiency, innovation, whatever. Do you see those as competitive to like the Layer 2s and side chains? Or is it just something that's different and kind of distinct?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  I think there's two different questions. There is like side chains and Layer 2s specific to like, you know, Lightning specific to Bitcoin. And then there are Layer 2s that exist in the, call it, you know, EVM compatible type ecosystem. Reality is in the long run, I think there's going to be a lot of interoperability among many, many different chains. And that's really where we all really, deep down, if you are honest yourselves, that's where we want the space to go to. Layer 2s, you know, they provide certain functionality, but they also Are not able to provide necessarily a lot of decentralization in the security that a layer one can, but they do, you know, they're more centralized, so they can probably be

• 8:38Speaker 02

  cheaper and faster in some respect. So there are different trade offs, but over time, I think it's about where the community, where the applications are, and there will be multiple winners and who and then the interoperability is what really the power of the permissionless world of blockchain that we all want, where people can actually own their data and profit from their, you know, data and have low switching costs. So over time, there will be a few or maybe more than a few winners, but there will be interoperability.

• 9:08Anthony Pompliano?

  And when you look at that, the interoperability argument, there's people, and I think in every ecosystem that would say like, no, we don't want interoperability, you know, there's some sort of maximalist view or whatever. What's your kind of vision of that interoperable world? Like, why do you say that that is what we want?

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Well, let's reduce this argument to the most basic level, like web two, in my opinion, scale, we've all benefited from certain efficiencies, but the infrastructure on certain level operates very poorly from interoperability. It's basically silo databases, monolithic databases. Everyone has to constantly update it themselves. You have to create APIs and permission, who gets into where and what. And then you have to, over time, you have to reconcile that. So you have a gazillion intermediaries and a lot of middleware that's built, and you allow a lot of centralization and people who get bigger have a lot of power over the, the, the new entrance to anything. So over time, what happens is like, look at

• 10:06Speaker 02

  Swift Network. It's supposed to be a nonprofit, but it takes five days for you to send money from the US to, to an international friend. It's those intermediaries and the painful middleware and other things related to that that causes that delay. So if you have a permissionless world, whether it's seamless and chains out there like Avalanche that are instant settlement, instant finality, payment and settlement happens very close to each other or at the same time. And when you have this decentralized Public immutable type situation, suddenly you're unlocking trapped value. Basically, you know, look at the Swift network or look at credit cards. What you're doing is you have one counterparty to another

• 10:49Speaker 02

  waiting basically for the validation that those transactions are real. And while it's waiting for 30 days at the bank to pay the merchant at the restaurant, you are literally taking money out of the system. By having it in a permissionless world where things can move smoothly and fast, suddenly you are literally making money more productive. So increasing the velocity of money and effectively actually even growing the economy. I mean, you know, GDP is money supply times velocity of money.

• 11:18Anthony Pompliano?

  So when you start to look at other use cases, what else are you excited about? Like where else is this technology going?

• 11:25Speaker 02

  So obviously DeFi is something that Avalanche is very excited about. And if we look at DeFi 2.0, when we come out of this, call it winter and we have spring, really excited about a couple of things because for DeFi to really explode and to grow, you need new participants to come into the ecosystem. And that means tokenizing real world assets and ultimately having some sort of identity mechanism, on-chain identity mechanism, so that you can really enable that representation of a person or a thing properly. Because if you look at DeFi 1.0, I think everyone in the crypto world will agree that it actually, the DeFi apps function pretty well,

• 12:10Speaker 02

  given, you know, all the stuff we hear from the C-Fi type players. No one got their withdrawals halted, transactions continued, code was the law and it all happened. Shore was painful. These, you know, Ave maker compound lost a lot of T D L, but they functioned and everyone got their money. In fact, you know, it did pretty well, in my opinion. However, the basic mechanisms to allow that were the smart contract code, you know, rules embedded into the code and the over-collateralization. So in DeFi 1.0, to get to DeFi 2.0, which we all want, which is to bring new users in, you can't use a system where you're over-collateralizing with existing crypto assets.

• 12:51Speaker 02

  That means just people who are already in the system, who have assets are able to use the system. No new collateral comes in means no new people coming in. So in order to get new people to come in, you need less volatility in that asset. We try to deal with stable coins in the crypto native. But if you tokenize real world assets, that inherently is less stable. You also invite new players in. But to do that, especially with financial services firms, you need to have some sort of proper KYC, AML and identity associated with it. So we are really excited for real world assets that will be tokenized to grow the whole DeFi pie for everyone.

• 13:27Anthony Pompliano?

  It seems like every kind of blockchain, every ecosystem is trying to do this. So obviously the Ether and Ethereum ecosystem has been talking about for a long time. I've seen Solana pitches, Bitcoin with the Tarot protocol built on top of Lightning, Avalanche, et cetera. Does it matter where stuff gets built? Like, you know, if I use Google, I couldn't tell you what the technical architecture is. I just know I type question in a box and I get an answer. And Google, you know, it's cool to me to answer my question. Like, is it ultimately gonna matter?

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Is that the world we all want to go to, where the underlying, anything under the hood is completely abstracted away? I think actually the fun part right now is trying to build and create and be one of those players in order to do that. But yes, the end result will be like your stuff is served in AWS. You have no idea whether it's AWS, Azure or Google Cloud. And one day you just Google it and you can do it. And you abstract away the entire, everything under the hood. When I drive my car, I could not fix the engine, but I know how to drive a car. That's literally where we want to get to. But right now it's a lot of fun. And it does matter a little bit right now because there are differences in technology, differences in speed and scale and differences in value proposition. So I think in the long run or medium term,

• 14:41Speaker 02

  the ones that have better valuation, better value propositions will ultimately win out. But to the user in the long run, it doesn't really matter. Abstracted away.

• 14:50Anthony Pompliano?

  And then what about like institutions as they come into this like are they looking at this all just from like a speculation standpoint? Are they trying to build assets?

• 14:57Speaker 02

  When you say institutions, let's define that institutions. I mean, there are two types of institutions. There are like financial services institutions, kind of what we've been talking about because of the D5 bend. But there's also, you know, just enterprises or Adidas, Nike, whatever. So on the financial institutions, you know, they're very aware that the power of the blockchain or the crypto system is that when you need information and money to move at the same time, it blockchain is a very powerful tool for that. So the, when you'd settle a stock, there are so many intermediaries. When you, we talked about Swift earlier, there's so many intermediaries, credit cards, there's so many intermediaries,

• 15:38Speaker 02

  and they're all working off of their own respective databases and lots of reconciliation has to happen. A lot of the financial services players are actually experimenting with blockchain. The amount of experimentation of blockchain and development, not just experimentation, innovation allows, but the amount of development, whether it's the JPM coin, you know, monetary authority Singapore with DBS with JPM trying to tokenize wholesale lending. Citi doing the custody recently, SacGen, you know, working with Maker Dow. They are looking at it as a way, the technology as a way to create efficiency and create more productivity and squeeze costs out. So that's one part of the equation for institutions.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  The other part of institutions is really new business models, new business models that will enhance user experience. Brave, Brave Browser, for instance, I think, you know, it's been around for a long time. So I'm sure you know, and your audience knows it too, but I think it's kind of cool that they protect you and your privacy. They don't allow your digital fingerprint or your digital traversing of the internet to just be sold. You have to actually opt into that. So once you opt into that, then you can get paid in basic attention tokens. So you actually decide on your privacy, then you own your data. And in other words, like, Tokenization and this whole new world for institutions will change because the users

• 17:03Speaker 02

  will now be, at some point, will be able to basically turn their searching into an asset via tokenization and get the choice of privacy or monetization.

• 17:16Anthony Pompliano?

  What are the risks with some of this stuff? Like, we talked about bridging both wrapping and native, like, what are risks there? And then what are the risks of some of these newer ecosystems?

• 17:24Speaker 02

  Right. So from the technology side, obviously, there is, you know, bad coding, you know, and things can happen with hackers. But most of the risks we've seen have been more in human nature. And this is part of the reason why the C5 protocols or C5 applications have seen more of these problems than you have in DeFi. I'm not saying that DeFi, there's no rug pulls or anything, but when, if you look at the blue chip ones that are functioning, they function pretty well. The risks are really on the human nature side, all of it. I mean, any CISO will tell you, you know, human hygiene is just as important to security as any technology. I mean, look at all the C5 stuff, you know, this is stuff that Pop,

• 18:08Speaker 02

  you saw in traditional financial services in O8. We're talking about re-hypofication, layering of debt, unsecure lending, and basically things that just happen to be happening in crypto as opposed to another asset class.

• 18:23Anthony Pompliano?

  And then when you start to look into the marketplace, you mentioned the interoperability component of that. How would the market change if we got to true interoperability? Like, institutions come in and they're agnostic to the underlying, like, kind of infrastructure? Or how does that work?

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Great question. I think right now, they're definitely clearly are working more in a permissioned fashion. So they're creating consortiums or they're, you know, leveraging the blockchain for, you know, their nodes are actually all part of that bank, just in different geographies. So they're really leveraging more of the underlying technology in a permissioned manner. However, they are slowly experimenting, like SOC Gen, with the traditional DeFi-type applications. They want to test

• 19:08Speaker 02

  It out. Ultimately, they too want to reach more people. And so that is like on the come. But again, initially, it's all about productivity efficiencies and probably doing it more in a permission manner. But for institutions, they need compliance, they need all these rules and regulations, so they need proof of authority for the short term. Hopefully, in the long run, we get to a point where they will be more comfortable and the technology is there. And the rules are there so that they can go into a permissionless environment where everyone can actually participate.

• 19:36Anthony Pompliano?

  So on the regulation side, what what are you seeing there? Like, what do you think has to change? What do you think is going to change?

• 19:42Speaker 02

  Well, I think what's happened recently, for better or for worse, has actually, you know, created a little bit more urgency to have more attention to the regulation of space. I think the Loomis Gillibrand bill has certain common sense things that make sense, like, you know, in terms of, you know, taxing small transactions. So people can actually use crypto in order to make transactions happen without capital gains worries there. But in general, I think what you have to do is somehow align standards around the world. Because you have different rules in different geography, different regions. And it's really hard to put people on the same plane.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  If if you have to have a different, you know, think of it as a passport entry to every single place. It's not going to be truly global until you can do that. The benefit, and that's part of the reason why Avalanche has the subnets, you know, the subnets allow people to create their own restrictions. And then you can toggle, you know, the lowest denominator denominator or the highest in order to like figure out who can transact with him. So it's a some of a solution to the to the lack of common set of rules. Ultimately, I think some global standards will have to come about.

• 20:57Anthony Pompliano?

  What is the thing you're most excited about in the next 12 months? We obviously are in kind of this bear market or downtrend now. What are you excited about for people to kind of look forward to?

• 21:07Speaker 02

  I wish I could give you specific names, but I am really excited about certain big brand. Traditional enterprises who are going to be doing some cool stuff on Avalanche. It's still that same theme of like real world assets.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  You know, coming into this ecosystem and growing the ecosystem for everyone. So both in the financial services side as well as in the gaming side. I mean, obviously we have a lot of visibility to gaming as well because the subnets have been really adopted by a lot of gamers to basically create their own execution environment in a very quick manner. So those are two areas that we're super excited. I wish I can give you specific names right now, but the audience just stay tuned and just follow me on Twitter or whatever. And they'll hear about it very shortly.

• 21:56Anthony Pompliano?

  And then last I guess is like, talk to me about the hiring environment. What are you all seeing there, both I guess in your own ecosystem? And then also in kind of other companies that you interface with.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, so for us, we're continuing to hire or continue to grow. I will say it's probably gotten slightly easier in the sense that a lot, we've come to the point where it's not just hiring crypto native people. It literally is hiring BDP from JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs. It's also hiring tech engineers from, you know, the Silicon Valley titans that you know of and product guys from those places. It was a lot harder just about four or five months ago. But now that there is, you know, a little more slack in the employment market for tech workers. That's become easier. From our perspective, we're still very selective, but we are growing.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  We've gone from literally 10 people in the room about 2.5 years ago to over 180. We'll probably be over 200 in the very near future.

• 23:01Anthony Pompliano?

  I lied, I actually have a couple more questions. When we think about this. Ecosystem, we think about Bitcoin, we think about kind of the entire space. Self custody is a huge piece of it. We do a bunch of work with Ledger. How do you think about self custody? Especially when there's bridging, when there's wrapping, when there's like all this like other things. Like how does self custody still fit into kind of the ecosystem?

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Listen, that is the holy grail. I think, you know, true people who, people who truly understand the power of permissionless. They want to own their assets, own their data and have switching costs to the most minimum level as possible. This is part of the reason why Avalanche is creating the core wallet. The core wallet goes back to what you said earlier. It will abstract away a lot of the stuff under the hood. The bridging you talked about, keeping one place where you can keep your NFTs as well as your other assets. Having like just a like normal like fidelity type of experience where you can actually do analysis on the stuff that you own. It's almost like an operating system more than a wallet and it has fiat or as well as, you know, crypto on ramp.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  So it makes it as if you can be a Coinbase type situation wallet, but yet actually own your own stuff. Have your own access to it. And that's what we're also, you know, thank you for bringing it up. Very excited about our own core wallet. You know, originally it came out because our community wanted an experience that was more appropriate for the speed of Avalanche. Metamask is great, but it was built for a different chain and that chain has different inherit differences. So the speed will be somewhat different, but recognizing that the goal for all of us is to grow the user base for the ecosystem and to abstract away some of the native crypto stuff. So we can grow that ecosystem.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  That's what the core wallet is all about, the bridging and the, and all the other stuff that we just talked about.

• 24:57Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  All embedded and you won't even know about it.

• 25:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Makes, makes complete sense. Where can we send people to, to find you on the internet?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Absolutely. So me personally, Twitter, John, the number one W U. And then Avalanche, you know, avalabs.org.

• 25:15Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome. Are you getting sleep? Everyone always knows I talk about my

• 25:19Speaker 02

  Not enough. I mean,

• 25:20Anthony Pompliano?

  I get my eight sleep. Come on.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  I see you every once in a while. Last time I was on the show, we did this in person. Now, I know the Zoom could be deceiving, but you look pretty much the same. And by the way, I just see the advertising for eight sleep. It's a wonderful product. It's awesome.

• 25:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you have one?

• 25:36Speaker 02

  Speaking of sleep, and you know, coincidentally, it just pops up. I don't have one, but I have a friend who had it and I stayed over at their place.

• 25:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Amazing.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  It is a, it's a changer. It makes, uh, I'm far more comfortable. It'll give you more deep and REM sleep that you need a lot of for people who work a lot of hours.

• 25:51Anthony Pompliano?

  They got to hire you. They need to hire you.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  It can replace my, it can replace my Whoop or Aurora.

• 25:58Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that is, that is exactly what, uh, what it is.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  That's even better. Whoop and Aurora just tell you what you're doing. This actually changes so that you actually don't need them to tell you you're not getting enough sleep. It just gives you more sleep.

• 26:10Anthony Pompliano?

  You, you, you're a sleep expert. You're asleep. We're, we're sleeping on you because you're, uh, you're expert at all this stuff. Do you have a Whoop or, uh, uh, the Aurora ring or whatever?

• 26:19Speaker 02

  I do. I do have a Whoop and the, and the next that may be, uh, eight sleep because I had such a good experience on it.

• 26:24Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I am. I use the, uh, Apple Watch, uh, for most of it. Um, and, uh, I love the data. I don't necessarily, I don't think I actually like changed too much. Somebody asked me recently, like, what is, what do I do differently in my life because of all the like quantitative self stuff? Uh, I sleep on the eight sleep, right? So I, I definitely know that I get better sleep. I feel better, higher energy, all this stuff. And then on the Apple Watch, uh, it's got all this data, but you know what the thing is that I do? Uh, I just close the rings. Like, like it's the most basic thing, right? Is I just try to close the, the activity rings, to close the rings, like I'm good. Uh, and how I did it, whatever, like, sure, you know, I might work out, I might go for a walk, whatever. But as long as I close the rings, then I feel like I, uh, was active for the day.

• 27:06Anthony Pompliano?

  And it's such a basic user experience, uh, thing of like, there's these stupid rings.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  You're on one end of the spectrum. I know a lot of other people who become neurotic because they check every single second. You know, I have an Apple Watch too.

• 27:17Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  That I'm wearing, um, but I don't use that for the sleep. I use the Whoop because I thought the Whoop app was actually a little bit better for other functions. So anyway, point is some people get neurotic about it.

• 27:26Anthony Pompliano?

  I can't do that.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  Actually is detrimental.

• 27:28Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, I can't, I can't, uh, I, I'd go crazy. Like I'd be sitting there like, oh, I didn't close it yet. Yeah, just chill life. Um, awesome, John. Listen, thank you so much, uh, for, uh, for coming on. Um, I, uh, I think that, uh,

• 27:41Speaker 02

  A lot of fun as always. Thank you.

• 27:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, absolutely. Thanks so much and we'll definitely do it together in the future.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 27:46Anthony Pompliano?

  All right. Later, buddy.