187. “We’re worth $87M, Why are we arguing over credit card bills?”

David (36) and Victoria (35) have been married for two years, yet their finances are largely separate. David is a startup founder—cash strapped and optimizing his monthly take home pay. Victoria is a wildly successful entrepreneur who struggles to appreciate her accomplishments. Despite their immense wealth, David and Victoria's money psychology is holding them back. Can they ditch their old money mindsets and embrace their rich life? This episode is brought to you by: Aura Frames | Save on the perfect gift by visiting https://auraframes.com to get $35-off Aura’s best-selling Carver Mat frames by using promo code RAMIT at checkout. Fabric by Gerber Life | Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at https://meetfabric.com/ramit. Facet | For Money for Couples listeners who enroll with Facet, they will waive the $250 enrollment fee for new annual members and they’ll add $500 into your brokerage account when you invest and maintain $5000 in the first 90 days of membership for Core, Plus and Complete members (promo does not apply to Foundations members). Check out their membership options at https://facet.com/ramit. Mint Mobile | To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to https://mintmobile.com/ramit. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Links mentioned in this episode • Get tickets to Money for Couples LIVE coming to a city near you in January Connect with Ramit • Pre-order my upcoming book: Money for Couples • Get the Podcast Newsletter and watch me analyze an anonymous couple's spending each Saturday • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

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• 0:43Ramit Sethi?

  and you can join today at iwt.com/100k.

• 0:50Ramit Sethi?

  It's kind of funny when I talk to small business owners who are super frustrated by the vendors that they work with. Because I'm like, "Y'all know you're the boss, right? You can fire them. You can make changes today." So if you don't like the platform that you are working with, move off of it. I've done it many times. If a CPA that you are working on goes dark on you after April, find somebody who's better. And that is where our partners at Gelt come in. Gelt is a modern CPA firm that helps your business take control of your tax strategy year-round. By working with Gelt, you get access to one dedicated tax strategist with real human expertise powered by cutting-edge technology that handles the rest. And right now, they have two Q3 exclusive offers.

• 1:33Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:14Ramit Sethi?

  On today's episode, this is by far the biggest net worth ever seen on this show. Meet David and Victoria.

• 2:21Speaker 01

  I've learnt how to save and not how to spend.

• 2:24Speaker 02

  I am not allowing myself to enjoy life.

• 2:27Ramit Sethi?

  David is 36 and Victoria is 35. They've been married for two years, yet their finances are largely separate.

• 2:33Speaker 02

  We feel like we're just roommates sharing joint expenses on groceries and utilities.

• 2:39Ramit Sethi?

  David is a startup founder. He's cash strapped. He optimizes his monthly take-home pay, leaving him with little cash.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  There's been times where she's requested a Venmo from me and I'm like, I don't have that in my checking account.

• 2:53Ramit Sethi?

  Victoria is a wildly successful entrepreneur who struggles to appreciate her accomplishments.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I don't take enough time to look back on where we are and what we have achieved. It's kind of toxic, huh? It's my Korean DNA to torture me.

• 3:11Ramit Sethi?

  Now, despite their immense wealth, David and Victoria's money psychology is holding them back.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  There's always this fear that tomorrow may not come or tomorrow may not have what we have today.

• 3:22Ramit Sethi?

  Can they ditch their old money mindsets and embrace their rich life?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  There's definitely a scarcity mindset and some extension of frugality that was taught and that was instilled in our upbringings both together. So I think that's definitely pulling us back.

• 3:39Ramit Sethi?

  Let's meet David and Victoria.

• 3:48Ramit Sethi?

  Welcome to the Money for Couples show. This is a special episode sponsored by our partners at Delete Me. Victoria and David reached out for help, but their privacy is very important. You're going to see why. They have by far the highest net worth we have ever seen on this show. And in the past, she's been burned financially by business partners. We partnered with Delete Me on this episode to keep them completely anonymous. And you should know that privacy is important to me. I have personally used Delete Me for years to get my personal data removed from search results. Even sign my friends and family up for it. Now, even if you don't have an immense net worth like David and Victoria, you don't want your personal information out there for anyone to find.

• 4:33Ramit Sethi?

  I want to thank Delete Me for sponsoring this episode. You can check them out at joindelete.me/ramit. I highly recommend them. I use them myself. Again, joindelete.me/ramit. All right, I've got David and Victoria's CSP in front of me. I'm getting ready for our conversation. Check out what I noticed.

• 4:54Ramit Sethi?

  Victoria and David, as entrepreneurs, my husband and I lead busy lives. I own a skincare brand that generates 20 million in annual revenue, and I'm the sole owner. In addition, I have supplemental income from influencer work. He runs an advisory firm, which is in its building phase. He has a trust and some real estate holdings that aren't immediately accessible, so I tend to cover our travel. I feel resentment or annoyance when I see him use our joint credit card for things like Uber trips, while I'm using my own credit card for the same. Let's take a look at the CSP. Uh, what?

• 5:33Ramit Sethi?

  Assets: $84,830,000. I've never seen a number this big in any CSP on this podcast. This is amazing. $84 million in assets. That's obviously business. Investments: 1.4 million. Look at that ratio. Savings: $809,000. And debt is 174,000. Let's take a total look at the total net worth. $87,216,874. Wow. But I can already estimate that they have some interesting dynamics with so much of their net worth locked up in businesses.

• 6:17Ramit Sethi?

  This often means that, you know, somebody like me is like, "Oh, my God, you're incredibly wealthy." But they're like, "Not really. It's all locked up in my business or in real estate, and it doesn't necessarily mean I have the cash flow to support it." Now, there are lots of ways to take money off the table. I'm almost certainly gonna talk about this with them, especially with her. But just overall, I just wanna say this is incredible. I mean, it's amazing. Let's take a look at the rest. Gross monthly income is $35,000. Okay, so they're making $425,000 a year. I noticed that she makes about three times what he makes. Okay, fine. She mentioned that he's starting his business up. You know, what's interesting is that he actually has more liquid cash than she does.

• 7:01Ramit Sethi?

  If you look at their holdings, he has $1.5 million, she has $712,000. So what a fascinating dynamic. She makes more than he does on a monthly basis. He has more cash or even investments, but then she quote trumps it all with an $80 million valuation on her business. I mean, wow. Now, the cool part about this is that as a team, they are incredibly successful. What I can see from their application is that they might be treating things separately. And in fact, even within their fixed cost of 32%, she's paying 25%. That's because her income is so high. And he's paying 47%.

• 7:46Ramit Sethi?

  So you can start to see that they're not quite working as a team. I don't understand why they haven't simply combined their money. Overall, this is a very fascinating conversation. And I mean, if we're gonna talk to some wealthy people, let's just talk to somebody who has an $80 million business. I cannot wait to learn more about her business, about his business, and about the way that they interact with their money together.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  We're both entrepreneurs and we never got to talk about how should we combine our finances or what should we be spending and what should we be saving on. There's definitely a little bit of discomfort knowing that we haven't really had a chance to properly sit down and map out our entire financials together. We only have one joint credit card that's basically used for utilities, so. I think we just lived very individually within one household as a married couple. I'm not really allowing myself to also spend on things that matter to us or that are better off kind of delegating to other people or, you know, freeing up my time per se.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  I would love to kind of unleash whatever restrictions or limiting beliefs that I have with my conservative spending habits. So that's why we wanted to start a conversation about what do we want out of our financial goal? And what does that mean to us? And what kind of rich life do we want to live together? And how much would that take to live that rich life? So that's why I applied.

• 9:19Ramit Sethi?

  Beautiful. All right. I'd like to know where you are financially. What do each of you do? And let's get a very high level. How much you make per year and how much you have? Uh, let's start with you, David.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  I am the founder and CEO of a company. It's bootstrapped, a hundred percent owned by myself. Uh, it's north of now at least 1.4 million annual revenue per year. My salary started off with me just writing off every expense that I could in 20 to 21, and it slowly moved up to roughly 120,000, give or take, before tax.

• 10:00Ramit Sethi?

  Great. Holdings, give me the high level.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  If you include the valuation of my company plus a property that I own, about close to $5 million, investments of 1.2 million across 401K to private equity, angel investments, savings of about 300,000 and a slight debt from that investment property of 174,000, but it's offset by my cash in my mortgage loans.

• 10:28Ramit Sethi?

  How'd you make, how'd you get all that money?

• 10:29Speaker 01

  I started off in corporate. I remember saving every dime to basically invest into my first property. And then additionally to that, a small amount of trust from my parents, which I then invested into stocks and private equity and different instruments to be a steward of that money.

• 10:46Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay, great. Okay, thank you very much. That's very helpful. Uh, Victoria, let's, same numbers from your perspective.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  I basically have two large income streams, one being a content creator. And then on top of that, I do have a skincare brand. All in together, my yearly salary, the four tax would be around three hundred fifty thousand a year. In terms of the liquid cash and investments that I have, um, that I can liquidate immediately would probably be around seven hundred K. Um, and then I guess everything else is tied with my business. So if I work to sell my business tomorrow, I think the valuation would be around eighty million dollars.

• 11:34Ramit Sethi?

  Wow, that's amazing. So here you are, both having succeeded, growing large businesses, and both being on here shielding your identities. I'm curious about that. Why, why are we not seeing your full identities today?

• 11:53Speaker 01

  I've always taught to be humble, not flaunt things. And so for me particularly, owning this story doesn't need to be done in a this is me kind of standpoint. I'm still coming to terms with this idea of being well off, even if mentally it doesn't show up that way. And so I do try to reconcile those two, but struggle a bit.

• 12:14Ramit Sethi?

  You are struggling with the idea of being well off, although you do have millions of dollars.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:23Ramit Sethi?

  Would you agree that objectively you are financially well off?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  Yes and no. We're both immigrants here in the United States. And we're both on visas. We had to fight our way to get here. I spent every dollar in my bank account to start my company. And it's been a grind running a bootstrap company with no investors. Yes, we're great now, but I think I'm still living the trauma of just focusing on the salary of what's incoming, like right now, that I can see, and forgetting about all this great investing that I did in the past, feeling like it needs to be tucked away as a nest egg and not used. I think I'm slowly coming to that terms now that my salary is a bit more reasonable. And I think why I'm also here is to learn how to. Repurpose my full wealth in a way that I feel is healthy and comfortable. And I'm struggling with that a bit.

• 13:13Ramit Sethi?

  Just so you know, David, most people get their information and feelings about their financial status literally from their checking account. And that is essentially what you're telling me. You're like, hey, put aside the 1.5 million dollars that I invested and saved. Oh, that doesn't count. That's, that's like play money, but it's my salary that determines how well off I am. Of course, that's completely wrong, illogical, self-protective, some would say delusional. Yeah. But, but the good news is a lot of people do that. And there are ways to, to help give you a full picture of your finances. Victoria, what about you?

• 13:57Ramit Sethi?

  Why are we not seeing your full picture today?

• 13:59Speaker 02

  I feel kind of conflicted because I think on, on one side, I can show how everyone can be self-made because I didn't come here just by luck. But on the flip side, I think there's a certain relevancy that I want to maintain. So I think that's the part that is kind of holding me back on becoming fully transparent about the situation and the relationship that I built with my audience is so, so special that I do not want to compromise by introducing to a new certain lifestyle that I suddenly have.

• 14:35Ramit Sethi?

  It would be easy to dismiss David and Victoria as rich people who are out of touch. Boo hoo. That's the easy narrative that we follow in America, which I find ironic because American culture loves wealth, but as soon as someone achieves it, they are not allowed to talk about their problems. Notice the layers here. David has considerable wealth himself, but he says he's quote, "still coming to terms with being wealthy." We have the cultural issues of being raised Korean and being from different countries. We have gender issues. And we have the very real issue of Victoria's immense wealth, most of which is locked up in her company.

• 15:18Ramit Sethi?

  Listen closely as I ask her about her $80 million valuation.

• 15:23Speaker 02

  It doesn't feel real. It feels like a virtual number because, you know, the company hasn't been sold, there wasn't a transaction at all. So it's just a number that you can only imagine, but it's not really there. And it could totally flop next year, right? And I think because of that, I am trying to be as conservative as possible and try to save as much as possible too, to future-proof myself financially.

• 15:49Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Um, that's a bit of an odd response for someone who has an $80 million business. Everyone here is like, if I had a big business, I would be so happy. And then like, not once did you use the word proud. You're just like, yeah, it could all go to zero. So like, my life could be [bleep] horrible. Anyway, I don't know if I'm gonna end up in a ditch one day. How long it take you to grow this business?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Seven years and counting.

• 16:14Ramit Sethi?

  That's amazing.

• 16:17Ramit Sethi?

  Do y'all talk about like the fact that you have achieved this?

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Rarely, to be honest. I think for me, I have a tendency to be always thinking about tomorrow. And I don't take enough time to look back on where we are and what we have achieved. It's kind of toxic, huh? I should do a better job to acknowledge what it has become, but it is really hard for some reason.

• 16:43Ramit Sethi?

  Do you know why?

• 16:45Speaker 02

  I really don't know why.

• 16:47Ramit Sethi?

  Did you ever see your parents' model gratitude? Taking a second, give yourself a pat on the back for how far you've come? Did you ever see that growing up?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  To be honest, I think we were in a household where we had very little words of affirmation and acknowledgement. So I think that definitely influenced the way that I, you know, expressed things or acknowledged things for myself and for David as well.

• 17:14Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Is this a Korean thing too?

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Generally speaking, just looking at a lot of my Korean friends, they are super hardworking and they are very hard on themselves. And I think the mentality of Koreans...

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Definitely is like hustle and bustle, just like grind, grind, grind with there being like no looking back, no regret, but just like looking forward and thinking about like where should we move next?

• 17:40Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, i- in a way, it's very constructive, it's very adaptive, it allows you to succeed. Like, my Korean friends are almost all very hardworking, very successful, technically defined. But you can also see that the cultural parts of that can become a weakness, you know, like, hmm, like, what are we doing this for? Let's just grind and grind and then make our kids grind and then their kids will grind and like, what's the point?

• 18:09Ramit Sethi?

  So David, you're over here nodding too. What do you think?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting to hear it from her perspective. Both my grandfathers were successful entrepreneurs, but lost their businesses several times. And so I think there's a trauma in my family where it skipped a generation. My parents saw that, were very, very discouraging of me starting a business. I'm still slowly coming to terms with what that means for myself personally. So slightly different, but I can appreciate this feeling of just, it's a house of cards, it can topple over, it's not mine anyway. And so what's that gonna mean for how I live a life that's intentional, ethical, but is right for myself and for Victoria?

• 18:49Ramit Sethi?

  And that, that is what I want to talk about now. How does money work in your relationship?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  We're very independent on our finances. We are pretty much fifty fifty split on things like rent, our groceries, whatever you think about. The two things that are joint with us is a joint credit card and we also have a joint savings account.

• 19:09Ramit Sethi?

  It's a given month. Who is handling money on a day-to-day basis? How often are you talking about it? What do the account setups look like? Walk me through it.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  So the joint savings account, we both have fifteen hundred dollars per month from our salaries that come into that, so three thousand dollars a month. We have a joint card, Victoria pays off that fee and then Venmo's me the fifty percent of what we, what we spend.

• 19:35Ramit Sethi?

  Hey, you guys. How long have you been married for?

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Almost two year.

• 19:40Ramit Sethi?

  Why are you doing this? With this Venmo [BLEEP]. It's like.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  We have a long list of Venmo transaction history.

• 19:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. All right, so you Ven... So you have a 50/50 split on expenses. You have a joint savings account. Victoria, you are paying off the credit card and then getting Venmoed from David. Okay, and then what about things like, um, bigger things? Taking a vacation, etc. How does that work?

• 20:08Speaker 02

  I tend to pick a destination and then pick a hotel, then pick the logistics of flights or car rentals and go from there. It can be costly because I do have a certain quality or standard that I would like to stay in in terms of Airbnb or a hotel. We have been able to smartly use our cash plus credit card points enough to fund our vacation. So it doesn't break our bank or it doesn't really make a dent in our savings.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Victoria has many more points generally than I do. And so therefore tends to prioritize comfort over cost. And so even in our London trip that we went to recently, she actually flew business class whilst I flew coach.

• 20:57Ramit Sethi?

  Uh, what? Hold on, so let's set the scene. So she's sitting, she's already seated in business class. And then, and she's got like the big headphones on and she's got a huge scarf and she's just sitting there drinking champagne. And then what happens? You walk past her?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  I literally walk past her and then wave and then have like a bit of a smile. And then I walk down to coach.

• 21:19Ramit Sethi?

  What do you guys think of this? It's kind of interesting.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  Well, I'm actually quite okay with it. If I don't feel like I'm getting a good deal on the flight, I don't really see the problem in flying coach.

• 21:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, I would never sit here and tell someone you have to spend more on something you don't care about. Uh, I'm curious the way that you both talk about flying and taking vacations. There was an assumption that you have to use points. Why is that?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  I don't feel super comfortable spending over a thousand or two thousand dollars a night for Four Seasons in Hawaii if it is just pure cash. I do feel like I'm missing out if I don't utilize that system enough to be able to partially fund my vacation.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I think our financial principle is that we both like to find deals. That generally is the case in a lot of our decisions. We tend to want to make sure that our money is used in a way where we feel like we are getting a good deal.

• 22:16Ramit Sethi?

  Where do you think that comes from?

• 22:18Speaker 01

  It definitely came from my upbringing of my first-generation immigrant family. My mom and dad were not very financially well off until, basically, I was growing up and instilled that in us. So we'd always see my parents and, I guess, try to find the best deal possible. And so for me, I think that still is instilled in the way that I make decisions.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  My upbringing also was middle-class. My dad was the only breadwinner of the family, and my mom was raising my brother and myself. And we were always short on money, so I didn't get to have like the sneakers that my friends were having in school or the polo t-shirts. And those are the things that I desired, but it was only given if we passed a certain grade. And I think money was more of a reward and a compensation. It wasn't a given for me. So I think naturally just having that instilled in my upbringing allowed me to cherish money a lot more. And I think that is probably something that I'm still carrying on, where I only get to

• 23:23Speaker 02

  spend money if I had a really tough year or like if I had a really stressful period, then I can reward myself with a fancy vacation or something else.

• 23:34Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that makes sense to me. Who brings up money in conversation? Either of you?

• 23:42Speaker 02

  We don't really talk about it, huh?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Not really.

• 23:46Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. You ever fight about it?

• 23:49Speaker 01

  There's been times where she's requested a Venmo from me. Maybe it's a couple of months delayed because, you know, we don't get to our life admin. And then I get shocked by that amount because I've like optimized my accounts. And then suddenly, you know, I have to like pay a thousand dollars in a month. And I'm like, crap, I don't have that in my checking account or I need to like adjust things. And so that ended up happening about a year ago where I started to get really annoyed by that. And then she's like, why are you getting annoyed about it? You've clearly, like, why? And then I had to sort of just grapple with this delusionment of that I had, that my checking account is my only area that I can spend on.

• 24:29Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. All right, that's pretty honest. Uh, Victoria, what do you say? Do you remember these conversations?

• 24:34Speaker 02

  Oh, totally. I even remember where and when it happened.

• 24:38Ramit Sethi?

  Let's first notice the commonalities between David and Victoria and so many other couples. They split expenses 50/50, even though Victoria makes a lot more money. In other words, their money dynamic is not carefully based on the most fair setup, but likely whatever they used to do years ago, which leads to them transferring money back and forth as a married couple. They don't talk about money a lot, like most couples. And they make financial decisions based on the way they were raised, like most of us do, including me. But I also notice that they're wealthy and yet they still operate as if they are not. And you can see this bleeding into hilarious and frankly weird dynamics,

• 25:23Ramit Sethi?

  like Victoria sitting in business class while David grudges past her to economy. When we come back, Victoria's going to tell us about their Venmo fight.

• 25:35Ramit Sethi?

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• 26:20Ramit Sethi?

  and it can format bullet points and lists on the fly. I find that particularly useful. So if you send tons of emails and messages every day, if you want to be able to capture your own ideas just by talking, Whisperflow is a no-brainer. Get one month of Whisperflow Pro for free at whisperflow.ai/ramit. That's whisperflow.ai/ramit. W I S P R flow dot A I slash ramit, or click the link in the description.

• 26:54Ramit Sethi?

  I have a simple rule in my life. If it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist. If it's important to me, I want to put it on my calendar. Work meetings, haircuts, dinners with friends, taking a trip. This calendar is shared so that other important people in my life can also get on the same page. Now, if you're trying to figure out your schedule for you and your kids, your family, that becomes even more complicated, which is why so many families love Skylight Calendar. Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together for more time. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, etc., making it easier to instantly look at your day, week, or month plans. With Skylight Calendar, you can manage events,

• 27:37Ramit Sethi?

  chores, and grocery lists by assigning colors for each of your family members, meaning no one can say they didn't know. What they needed to do. My coworkers say it's a game changer for their families. Plus, it comes with a four-month, 100% happiness guarantee. If you don't love it after four months, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/ramit. Go to myskylight.com/ramit for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. That's M Y S K Y L I G H T dot com slash ramit.

• 28:21Ramit Sethi?

  Welcome back. Let's keep going with this special episode sponsored by our partners at Delete Me to help keep our high net worth guests private.

• 28:30Speaker 02

  David doesn't really check his Venmo account that often, which is why he is getting shocked by accumulated amount of requests of three months of the joint credit card bills that I charge him every single month. And we were in Mexico City for our friend's wedding, and casually David would check his Venmo for some reason. And his face would just start to just get like really upset. And then he asked of what the credit card, you know, line items were. And I started basically posting all the Amex bills so that he has full visibility.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  And he would sometimes question, oh, like, what was, what was this for? And what was that for? And I felt a little bit offended by how he started questioning all of the transactions. And he then goes, when you go to Target or Trader Joe's, are you putting your meal plan on our joint saving or joint credit card? And we had to basically come to an assumption that we should only be putting the credit card to the grocery purchase that benefits both of us. And I think the other day when David shopped from Trader Joe's, he buys me a, you know, bouquet of flowers. And then he says, oh, by the way, I, I use my own credit card on this.

• 29:59Ramit Sethi?

  Hold on, this is the most romantic moment on this show I've ever heard. It's not even about the flowers. He doesn't go smell this beautiful bouquet. It reminds me of when we met in Rome. No, he goes, "Uh, babe, just wanna let you know, I put that on the 6486 card. That's my personal card. Got it?" Wow. Let the romance flow, everybody. Money for couples. David, everything accurate in what Victoria said?

• 30:26Speaker 01

  It's accurate, and one thing I think I wanna get better on is that we were operating on assumptions. We're culturally from different countries, and one of the things that we always try to do is figure out how to communicate. I'm a very words person. Victoria would answer questions, but she's not a very verbal person. One thing I love about Victoria is that she has no problem sending me Venmo transactions, just saying it as it is. She's very honest, very direct. I grew up in a culture that's a bit more indirect, and maybe sometimes doesn't get to the point. And the second thing is, I think by talking, whereas Victoria needs time to process and then get to her conclusions, then have a response.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  And so when it came to things like talking about money, I first of all didn't feel comfortable bringing it up with her. Now we know that I can just bring it up, and it's fine. She may not have the answer now, but I just need to be able to get that response from her once she's been able to process it.

• 31:26Ramit Sethi?

  I hear a couple of things. First off, I hear some conversations that my wife and I have had, and I wanna acknowledge them because if you have a high-income couple, especially a couple where there's a disparity in incomes or net worth, you're going to have assumptions. I personally like to stay at nicer hotels than my wife does. It's not really her thing. For me, I love it, I want it, and I'm willing to spend on it. So I can hear that there are some conversations and agreements that the two of you need to have.

• 32:07Ramit Sethi?

  And it sounds like you've started with things like where you sit on the plane and hotels and things like that. But the second thing that I hear is being on a beautiful trip in Mexico City for a friend's wedding. And letting a small dollar amount intrude over the beauty and experience of that trip. We are literally talking about a rounding error. We are talking about you making that much money in interest in a week? Like, this should not even be a conversation. And so what I hear there is letting your past stories actually intrude and detract

• 32:49Ramit Sethi?

  from what would otherwise be a connective experience. Okay? And that's what I want to change for you. You two are too successful to be allowing money to be intruding on what should be something bringing you together. How does that sound to you?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. It's legitimately why I'm here. I think after that moment, I just came to this realization that what was I annoyed about? And my mindset is just stuck in the past, maybe stuck at that point where I was struggling, looking at my checking account and not actually looking at the holistic picture.

• 33:27Ramit Sethi?

  Right. And Victoria, what about you? Did you, like, the fact that you felt put on the defense, being asked questions?

• 33:34Speaker 02

  I definitely didn't feel good because I think compounding to that, I am normally the planner of most vacations. So it's not just about the money, but perhaps me doing and spending more time on planning the entire vacation together for us to enjoy, only to be questioned. That definitely puts me in a spot to just be pissed about it, to be honest.

• 33:58Ramit Sethi?

  What I hear is a combination of psychology and systems. The psychology part is, you know, we need to save on everything. We need to only use our points.

• 34:10Ramit Sethi?

  You know, spending less is better than spending more. Just these kind of deep things that run through. But then I also hear systems such as, why is this couple Venmo-ing back and forth? That's a systems issue, okay? Why does this couple have one partner planning everything and then getting questioned? That's a systems and agreements issue. David, you mentioned that you have something like a thousand dollars in your checking account? And it actually causes you a ton of problems. You should probably have twenty, thirty thousand dollars sitting in your checking account, okay? And if you calculate the math on how much you're gaining by putting it in a high-yield savings, like nothing for you.

• 34:51Ramit Sethi?

  But it causes you all the things that could be eliminated with a systems change, okay? All right, Victoria, any comments on what I just said to David?

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's definitely one of the root causes of where all these emotions are stemming from.

• 35:05Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, it shows up. It's like the fingerprints are the loudest in the checking account. And for wealthy people, and David, you are wealthy, it actually tells the story. Scarcity, over-optimization, would rather deal with recurring financial freakouts than something smooth and calm, and most importantly of all, connective with your wife. So we'll fix the mechanics, but actually, what I really want for the two of you is for you to start seeing your money together. Okay, I want to ask a couple more questions about spending. We talked about travel.

• 35:42Ramit Sethi?

  What about like lifestyle stuff? Is there any spending disagreements on those kind of expenses?

• 35:49Speaker 01

  There used to be a spending disagreement because I love to clean. I actually do love to clean. It's my meditative exercise, and I think I used to get annoyed that Victoria didn't want to clean, but we're able to resolve that by her saying, I want to contribute. I would rather a cleaner come in and deep clean. Initially, I was against it, but then I saw what that deep clean can do. And especially as a time-constrained founder, was appreciative of that, and it's been put in our joint account. But the flip side of it was That she talked about my inability to plan. I don't actually enjoy planning. She she enjoys the process. And so actually, the solution was to use my executive assistant,

• 36:31Speaker 01

  who then actually helped plan a lot of other things, including trips. And that actually helped to solve that problem around the planning side. So we've had ways that we can work around these disagreements.

• 36:45Ramit Sethi?

  That's healthy. That's what money is for.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:47Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Okay. What they say, if you have a problem that money can solve, you don't really have a problem. That's great. All right. Victoria, what about for you? Whoa, whoa, hold on. What was that reaction? Victoria?

• 36:57Speaker 02

  I just had a very similar lesson from my dad, who said the exact same words.

• 37:03Ramit Sethi?

  Really?

• 37:04Speaker 02

  Just in my early thirties or late twenties, when I was just going through a co-founder breakup of my business, just causing a lot of emotional and mental struggles, difficulties. There was one thing my dad told me that he was saying that if if a money can solve a problem, it is not a problem.

• 37:27Ramit Sethi?

  Whoa.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  So I certainly believe that that there is like something to that quote that I've been carrying through with my business since then.

• 37:37Ramit Sethi?

  I love that.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  I think that's why I feel like the net worth or the valuation of the company, or even the cash balance that the business has is all volatile. There could be a legal suit. There could be business partnership ending that requires you to buy someone out at a large sum of cash.

• 37:59Ramit Sethi?

  When I hear scarcity, there's usually a reason. The most common reason is people grew up with parents who were scarce with money. Victoria's founder breakup is an extra reason beyond that upbringing. It's one of those pivotal moments that can affect our relationship with money forever. On page twenty five of my new book, Money for Couples, I talk about these pivotal money moments that affect your relationship with money forever. If you go through the list, I will bet you will learn about why you treat money the way you do. You can get a copy of my new book at I W T dot com slash money for couples.

• 38:41Ramit Sethi?

  When I started I Will Teach You To Be Rich over 20 years ago, business organization platforms were not really a thing, especially for small businesses. Massive companies had big bespoke CRM software, but I was just a college kid trying to get to Taco Tuesday. Now, if you already have a business, you don't need to cobble together random tools like I did way back then. Instead, make things easier on yourself and harness the power of AI using NetSuite, this episode's sponsor. NetSuite is the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all of your data. And now you get extra advantages with NetSuite Next, which lets you automatically surface custom insights, use AI agents for routine tasks,

• 39:25Ramit Sethi?

  and get answers to complex questions in plain language, just like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite Next, where your business meets AI. If I'd had this system back when I was building IWT, it would have changed everything. If your revenues are in at least the seven figures, get their free business guide, Aligning For The Agentic Era: How AI Is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/ramit. That guide is free to you at netsuite.com/ramit. netsuite.com/ramit.

• 40:04Ramit Sethi?

  I have a simple rule in my life. If it's not on my calendar, it doesn't exist. If it's important to me, I want to put it on my calendar. Work meetings, haircuts, dinners with friends, taking a trip. This calendar is shared so that other important people in my life can also get on the same page. Now, if you're trying to figure out your schedule for you and your kids, your family, that becomes even more complicated, which is why so many families love Skylight Calendar. Skylight Calendar is designed to bring families together for more time. It's an all-in-one digital smart calendar that syncs with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook, etc., making it easier to instantly look at your day, week, or month plans. With Skylight Calendar, you can manage events, chores, and grocery lists by assigning

• 40:50Ramit Sethi?

  Colors for each of your family members, meaning no one can say they didn't know what they needed to do. My coworkers say it's a game changer for their families. Plus, it comes with a four-month, 100% happiness guarantee. If you don't love it after four months, you can return it for a full refund, no questions asked. Families are better when they're working together. Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off their 15-inch calendars by going to myskylight.com/ramit. Go to myskylight.com/ramit for $30 off your 15-inch calendar. That's M Y S K Y L I G H T dot com slash ramit.

• 41:31Ramit Sethi?

  Now, back to the show. Can we talk about an area of your life where you're having a financial challenge right now? Where money might be able to solve it?

• 41:41Speaker 02

  I don't have an assistant. David does have an assistant. I'm someone who is really creative, very spontaneous. But since I started my business and since my time has become this this most expensive currency out of my entire life, I started trying to maximize all of my time, including my vacation. So when I am going to Mexico City, I need to see A, B, C, D. I need to do all these stuff. I need to go eat at like all these beautiful restaurants. So I think that FOMO mindset or trying to maximize and trying to get the most ROI possible out of my time had made me to become a planner.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  And I don't actually really, really enjoy that process. And this was kind of realized when David actually planned the most recent trip to Acadia National Park from start to end. I don't know if he had the assistant's help or not, but he planned it perfectly. And I just got to enjoy the entire experience just on a passenger seat. And it was the most amazing thing ever. And so maybe perhaps delegating that process to an assistant would allow me to free up my mental space to focus on more creative work, more content work. I think that would be awesome.

• 43:08Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. It sounds like you have identified the problem. Sounds like you've tasted success. And it sounds like you could make it happen. There's nothing holding you back, right? Is there anything?

• 43:20Speaker 02

  The only reason why I don't keep an assistant is the added responsibility of taking care of another team member. When it comes to the work process of a content creation and a creative flow of how I work, I tend to be the most comfortable when I'm alone without any distractions. And sometimes when I had assistants in the past, I had to work for my assistants, meaning I felt like I need to create work for the assistant.

• 43:48Ramit Sethi?

  How much did you pay your assistant in the past?

• 43:50Speaker 02

  Twenty dollars an hour.

• 43:52Ramit Sethi?

  That's your answer.

• 43:55Ramit Sethi?

  You need to be having an assistant that makes like 100 to 200 a year, like full-time, benefits, all of it. These are executive assistants and they don't bug you. They're like running your life, personal and professional if you want. So what I can tell you right there, that is such an interesting example because you're right there. You know that you need an assistant. You, you feel what it's like to be taken care of.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:24Ramit Sethi?

  And it's that one subtle thing which has led to your poor experience in the past, and that is just not paying enough.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 44:32Ramit Sethi?

  Value, always trying to get value. Sometimes, as you know, like you could get a better value at a hotel from a Marriott. That's a better value. And you're like, I don't want value. I want the best.

• 44:45Ramit Sethi?

  You can apply the same thing to the important things in your life, your relationship, your time, your health. Sometimes the best money you can spend.

• 44:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, listen, I get so many people who follow my material, save and invest. They accumulate some money and they finally go, Ramit, I'm ready to live my rich life. So they try a nice hotel for the first time, or they hire somebody to clean their house, or they hire a stylist or a tour guide. And it's a total letdown. The cleaning person doesn't fold their clothes the way they want. The hotel's nicer, but it's not worth three times the price. And they go, what? That's it? All that money? And this is all I get? Guess what? The first time you try something new, it might not be what you expected. You might have chosen poorly. You might not even know what to look for. This is why I wish when I was in my twenties,

• 45:38Ramit Sethi?

  I had someone to show me around and teach me how to appreciate a nice restaurant or show me how to think about traveling in a different way. Because spending money meaningfully is a skill. If you try something new and you don't love it, my simple recommendation is you give it one more shot. Maybe the waiter wasn't great that night. Maybe you hired someone you didn't get along with. But don't give up. Spending money meaningfully is a skill. Let me ask a couple of rapid fire questions just so I understand your full financial picture. You have about $800,000 in joint savings. What's that for?

• 46:20Speaker 02

  To buy our first house together.

• 46:22Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Does 800K represent a 20% down payment or more? Or is it just let's get as much as we can in that account?

• 46:30Speaker 02

  The price range that we're looking at for our first home is around 1.3 to 5. So I would say more than half.

• 46:39Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, great. You have 50/50 split on expenses, but your income is not the same. In fact, I think, Victoria, you make a lot more, right?

• 46:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:56Ramit Sethi?

  Almost three times more.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Three times more? Yeah, yeah.

• 46:59Ramit Sethi?

  How is it that you make almost three times what he makes, Victoria, but the expenses are split 50/50?

• 47:04Speaker 02

  What is the other way around? Is it just contributing proportionately to our income size?

• 47:10Ramit Sethi?

  Proportionally could work. Or what's more common is couples just combine everything and then they take a certain amount for individual, no questions asked, money for themselves. You look very happy hearing this, Victoria. What's going on right now?

• 47:27Speaker 02

  I just never have thought about it, I guess, in that way. I think it definitely would relieve a lot of the, just like, menial... Conflicts that, you know, between the Venmo transactions and all those very, very little things and very minor things.

• 47:44Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, no more Venmo transactions. That would be my new 12-month philosophy.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  You gotta unfriend David.

• 47:56Ramit Sethi?

  Truthfully, um, one of the things that I wanna help you do is to think bigger. So we have to elevate. We have to elevate in two areas. One, we have to master our money psychology. Two, we have to know our numbers and make sure that our accounts and systems follow it. Okay? A couple more questions I have for you. Do you have a prenup?

• 48:18Speaker 02

  We do not.

• 48:19Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, was that a discussion topic?

• 48:21Speaker 02

  I actually have brought it up, um, just knowing that we individually have our own businesses and David coming in with some of his trust fund and family money. I thought it would be just easier for us to make an agreement to split things in our own terms, not by how the state determines. So that's a topic that I brought it up, but it never came to fruition.

• 48:46Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, how come?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  It's not that we didn't wanna do it, but it was very hard to find someone or a couple that had done it and like what it took. Well, when we did talk about couples where it did happen, we heard more horror stories and nightmare stories of lawyers getting involved and, you know, the process being elongated and we know that there's online platforms. So on one hand, we would be totally open to a postnup, which I hear is a bit more airtight. Uh, it's just hasn't come up, I guess, as we're still pretty nascent in our financial communication journey together.

• 49:21Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, well, um, I did it. My wife and I went through the process. Actually, it was pretty hard, I'll tell you that.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:27Ramit Sethi?

  It was pretty hard. It was, it was challenging and the lawyers get involved and all that stuff.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:32Ramit Sethi?

  But you know, with, with the premarital assets you both brought, and the fact that there's businesses involved, which has inherent complexity, I think a post-up would be something really smart. You have the means to be able to get lawyers, get your own lawyer. And this is a very typical, common thing. So, um, yeah, I actually would encourage it. Uh, because it just gives you a clear set of rules.

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 49:59Ramit Sethi?

  Right now, you're not even talking about money at all, much less even talking about rules.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:06Ramit Sethi?

  So with this amount of nebulous numbers and there's this business that might sell one, who knows? We need to put some rules around it. It just

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 50:14Ramit Sethi?

  feels so much better. It's interesting that Victoria did not know there was any other way to combine incomes without splitting it 50/50. And they also haven't gotten around to signing a prenup. Her business makes $20 million a year. And David is a millionaire too. What do you take away from this? I notice that just because you know how to make money, does not necessarily mean you know how to manage it or spend it. Those are three separate skills: making money, managing money, and spending money. I also noticed that nobody who makes this kind of money should use lack of time as a reason to not get around to something. You can literally buy back your time.

• 51:00Ramit Sethi?

  I'm gonna show them how, but first I have to help them get more connected over money. The theme of your relationship that I see from a financial perspective is separate.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  I understand.

• 51:13Ramit Sethi?

  She goes on different airline seats than he does. She plans, he's the passenger. She, uh, sets up the spending plan, he questions it, she feels resentful.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Rude.

• 51:27Ramit Sethi?

  He, she, she, he. The only time that I hear "us" as it relates to money is, can you guess?

• 51:37Speaker 01

  A joint savings account?

• 51:39Ramit Sethi?

  That's correct. One joint savings account with a large amount of cash for a house, which is a great goal, at some point in the future with a very wide range. That's it. But I share inklings of what could be.

• 51:59Speaker 02

  I'm totally with you on that assessment. We feel like we're just roommates sharing joint expenses on groceries and utilities.

• 52:08Ramit Sethi?

  Beautiful. Can I ask, if you made no changes today and you continue the separate paths that you're on, what would happen?

• 52:18Speaker 01

  Think our spend would be limited to whoever at that season of life is earning the least and maybe focused on just what we're bringing in at that point in time.

• 52:28Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's an interesting insight. So you would be playing to the lowest common denominator.

• 52:34Speaker 02

  You're checking account balance.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, yeah, exactly. So that could definitely change if we if we change our perspective.

• 52:42Ramit Sethi?

  What else would happen if you continued living separate financial paths? Victoria?

• 52:47Speaker 02

  I think we would have a lot of assumptions and resentments when it comes to bigger purchases like home, when we're, maybe David could feel like I can contribute more because I am earning more. Or if you look at the amount of investment that David has, he definitely has more investments. So I could resent David by not putting in more proportionately. So I think it would definitely continue to kind of snowball unspoken conflict and just assumptions and resentment within us.

• 53:22Ramit Sethi?

  I agree. Anything else? Fast forward, think about 10 years, 20 years, 30 years from now. And what would be happening on a day-to-day basis?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Worrying over the small things that actually become even smaller, but we've just kept that habit.

• 53:36Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. And what's the implication? What would happen in your relationship?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  I don't know if it would really grow. That's something that's just on my mind. It may stay stagnant because we're both of us are achievers and we want to unlock our gifts to their fullest attention for the greatest good. And I think this would actually hold us back.

• 53:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. All right.

• 53:57Ramit Sethi?

  Can we take a look at the CSP? This is easily the most fascinating CSP I've ever seen. Victoria, why don't you go ahead and read off the word in bold and the number in full next to it?

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Net worth assets, eighty-four million, no, eighty-four, I don't know how to even read this, eighty-four, eight hundred, thirty thousand.

• 54:28Ramit Sethi?

  Or take as long as you need, we have to hear this full number.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  Eighty-four million, eight hundred, thirty thousand.

• 54:35Ramit Sethi?

  Absolutely amazing. You should be incredibly proud of yourself. And I know that you are anonymous here for everyone to see, but I see you and I see what you've accomplished with this business and I am in awe. Well done.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 54:52Ramit Sethi?

  Let's continue on. Go ahead, Victoria. Investments?

• 54:57Speaker 02

  One million, four hundred.

• 54:59Ramit Sethi?

  One point four million, that's good. Savings?

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Eight hundred and nine K.

• 55:05Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and debt?

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Hundred and seventy-four K.

• 55:09Ramit Sethi?

  All right, what's the total net worth?

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Eighty-seven million, two hundred, sixteen, thousand, eight hundred, seventy-four.

• 55:21Ramit Sethi?

  All right, what's it like to see these numbers? Victoria?

• 55:25Speaker 02

  It doesn't feel real because it's not tangible, to be honest. I think it still feels like it's not mine.

• 55:35Ramit Sethi?

  So it's quite an interesting dynamic that the two of you have. In many ways, you're at the absolute cutting edge of being financially sophisticated, both of you. However, you can see that you have a very strong weakness on the money psychology side. What a tragedy if you end up being worth tens of millions of dollars and you're not able to go to a nice hotel and you're arguing over a tostada. It just doesn't make any sense. Okay, is her business worth $80 million? I don't know. How much is your house worth? You can look it up on Zillow. You have a general idea, but you never really know until you try to put it on the market.

• 56:17Ramit Sethi?

  What we see here is actually a very similar analogy with Victoria, who has this immense wealth on paper, and a lot of Americans who have the majority of their net worth in an illiquid asset, which is a house. So this is actually somewhat similar. We can all relate to it. It's just that she has a lot more zeros at the end. So is her business worth 80 million? That would be a 4X multiple on her revenue of 20 million, 20 million times four. I asked her and she confirmed that's what her VP of Finance told her. Maybe it is, maybe not. But whether it's 20 million, 40 million, or 80 million, it's still a very successful business. More on their CSP in a second. Right now, let's take a quick pause to support our sponsors.

• 57:03Ramit Sethi?

  When I started I Will Teach You To Be Rich over 20 years ago, business organization platforms were not really a thing, especially for small businesses. Massive companies had big bespoke CRM software, but I was just a college kid trying to get to Taco Tuesday. Now, if you already have a business, you don't need to cobble together random tools like I did way back then. Instead, make things easier on yourself and harness the power of AI using NetSuite, this episode's sponsor. NetSuite is the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all of your data. And now you get extra advantages with NetSuite Next, which lets you automatically surface

• 57:43Ramit Sethi?

  custom insights, use AI agents for routine tasks, and get answers to complex questions in plain language, just like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite Next, where your business meets AI. If I'd had this system back when I was building IWT, it would have changed everything. If your revenues are in at least the seven figures, get their free business guide, Aligning For The Agentic Era: How AI Is Changing Everyday Work, at netsuite.com/ramit. That guide is free to you at netsuite.com/ramit. netsuite.com/ramit.

• 58:25Ramit Sethi?

  Now, back to the conversation. Let's continue moving along on this CSP. David, read off the combined monthly income here.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  Thirty-five thousand, four hundred and forty-three dollars.

• 58:38Ramit Sethi?

  Great. So that's four hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars a year that the two of you are bringing in. And did you both know that number?

• 58:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 58:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 58:48Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, fifty percent. Love it. Love it. I love statistics. Okay, cool. Your salaries. I'm really curious about this. So, David, you make nine thousand, four hundred and forty-three dollars a month. And Victoria, you make twenty-six thousand dollars per month. Okay, how did you choose your salaries?

• 59:11Speaker 02

  I went with the market rate. And for me, that was around two hundred and fifty from my business.

• 59:22Ramit Sethi?

  And you've upped it a bit. You pay yourself about three hundred and twelve or so now, right?

• 59:27Speaker 02

  That was, that's mixed with my YouTube income.

• 59:31Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, oh, so you're, from your business, your salary is two fifty?

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:37Ramit Sethi?

  Got it. Okay. And what about for you, David?

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Two things. One, the relative revenue that we generate as a business, because we still need to stay profitable by no means at the twenty million mark. The second thing is what I felt was fair. However, I also need to compensate myself. So I'm trying to move to that as we get hopefully more profitable in our top line.

• 1:00:00Ramit Sethi?

  Those are both very good answers. You have your rationale for it. I will say, I'm a little surprised, Victoria, at your salary only being two hundred and fifty K. Because you're based in expensive market, twenty million, I think you own the entire business, correct?

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:00:16Ramit Sethi?

  Seems a bit low, right? You know, at that level, should be making ballpark, depending on how you benchmark, five hundred, maybe more if you wanted to. I mean, it makes no difference. It's your business. What do you think about that?

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, but for me to take that as a founder, it does feel like I'm taking advantage of my own company for some reason. So, yeah, I never, I never felt comfortable because I know there are a lot of other founder friends who take way, way, way less.

• 1:00:47Ramit Sethi?

  Do you have any founder friends who take more?

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  No, not in my, not in my immediate network.

• 1:00:53Ramit Sethi?

  What does that tell you?

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  That I need more founder friends who are way better than my business.

• 1:00:58Ramit Sethi?

  The lesson I would take away is you need

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Ramit Sethi?

  diverse founder friends because founders are very good at being martyrs. They martyr themselves into running a business for 10 years and then they end up with nothing. And

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:13Ramit Sethi?

  being an effective founder, you know, as a founder and the face of a business. I will tell you that psychologically, I had to get comfortable with the idea that a lot of this business depends on me. Like your business depends on you. Of course, I have an amazing, very talented team, but this business means I have to be happy. I have to be energized. And if I'm not, everybody's out of a job. So that means maybe I'm going to find a way to feel really good about traveling to beautiful places that inspire me. Maybe I'm going to feel really good about having an assistant who's absolutely top notch and runs my life and paying.

• 1:01:57Ramit Sethi?

  In your case, I would see no problem with you increasing your salary. You're the face and the founder of the business.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is true.

• 1:02:06Ramit Sethi?

  Do you see how this is, none of these decisions are about the individual money. You have plenty of money. But the, the, the psychology of getting there is actually what makes you more effective with money. Right now, it's playing small in lots of ways. It's like, oh, well, my friends take less than me. And I'm like, why are you comparing yourself to your martyr entrepreneur friends? I don't want that. I'd rather you compare yourself to your friends who have a sweet business and an awesome lifestyle.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:35Ramit Sethi?

  Tell me about them. Let's just quickly go through these numbers. So the fixed cost number is 32%. Now, I want to point something out. It's one of the lowest numbers I've ever seen. Okay?

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:02:47Ramit Sethi?

  That means you're living very conservatively. Investments are at 7%. Fine. And I'm sure you're doing a bunch of pre-tax, some pre-tax stuff, right? 401Ks, et cetera?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  I'm not.

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  I am not.

• 1:03:02Ramit Sethi?

  Why not?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  We're both on a work visa, US. We don't know if we're gonna retire in the US. So we're not really, I am not really sure if I should be putting money into.

• 1:03:14Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's a pretty good answer.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  Retirement plan. Yeah.

• 1:03:18Ramit Sethi?

  Savings are at 30%. So that's a lot. That's going towards a house, vacations, an emergency fund. I don't know that you guys need to save more for an emergency fund considering you have $809,000 in savings. But who knows, maybe you like to be conservative.

• 1:03:40Ramit Sethi?

  And then finally, the biggest lie of all on this CSP is that you spend $6,900 a month on guilt-free spending. We all know that's not true. No way.

• 1:03:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:03:50Ramit Sethi?

  Come on. Let me guess. You spend 2 to 3K a month. You have extra money, which ends up just getting saved at the end of every quarter of the year. How did I know? Yeah, wow. I wish I had a better skill. You know those people who look like totally unathletic and then they go and hustle people at a gym or something like that and they can make a lot of money? My only skill is being able to guess what's actually going on with your finances, down to the freaking dollar. But what am I supposed to do with that skill? I can't go to a bar and hustle people? I freaking wish. Okay, so first of all, what do you all think of this CSP? Just looking at the numbers.

• 1:04:30Speaker 02

  That's very little of a spending compared to our gross income.

• 1:04:34Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:35Speaker 02

  Monthly.

• 1:04:35Ramit Sethi?

  Agreed. What else?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  And it seems to be split pretty close as 50/50 for the cost, which

• 1:04:43Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  By design, yeah.

• 1:04:45Ramit Sethi?

  So David, your burden for your fixed cost, David, is 47%. That's still really low, still. But Victoria's is 25%. Okay, now I want to point out the fact that if you wanted to, you could keep this up. Both of you are still way underspending. I do think sometimes, especially in a marriage, there's something more important than the precision of getting every dollar to line up, and that is connection. Because in a relationship, if we are connected, then the dollars are details.

• 1:05:27Ramit Sethi?

  But if we are always starting with the dollars themselves, then we will struggle to build that connection.

• 1:05:39Ramit Sethi?

  So what would it look like? Put the numbers aside. What would it look like and feel like if the two of you were connected with money?

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  For me, I think it'll alleviate a lot of stress of caring about menial things and trusting with each other that, you know, we are here to spend money on the rich life that we designed together. So I think having that innate trust as a foundation, it does make me feel connected to David a lot.

• 1:06:17Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. That feeling of, um, I have a teammate. I know that he's always right here by my side. If something happens, I know he's right there. And I know that we are We're propelling each other together. And what about for you, David? What would it look and feel like if you were connected with money?

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with what Victoria said. The reason why it's fifty fifty split is that I've never wanted to take advantage of my wife's success. I think what she does is so wonderful. And in fact, her success drives my success. However, I would feel uncomfortable initially, knowing that she would be proportionately spending more or contributing more, just from a psychology standpoint. I love my wife so much that I never want to feel like I'm taking advantage of the success that I think she earns and she deserves it. But I think then in the longer term, if we actually come to a healthier relationship with money, I would actually feel much more rich, to be honest.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  If I just took away the numbers and didn't think about it, and for us to just have a joint account of which we're thriving together, I feel, would feel much more free, much more happy in order just to enjoy the things that we collectively want to do and not get so hung up about the specific numbers.

• 1:07:40Ramit Sethi?

  What do you all think? You both shared a beautiful vision. You want to talk about how each of those visions made you feel?

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  The first point that you pointed out was very interesting because I have never thought about it that way. I also subconsciously had a mindset where the male in the household needs to provide. Therefore, I think for me, I was okay leaving this like fifty fifty split for the longest time, just knowing that, you know, I deserve to be cared for by my husband. Although our income is not at a place where it is just or fair to split fifty fifty. So I think hearing that from you definitely made me,

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  I don't know, feel like you shouldn't be worried about that. And I think by just out of this conversation, hopefully we can have a more abundant relationship together financially and just spend on things, knowing that we trust each other.

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  I can learn how to have a growth mindset in that psychology to allow for that to happen, as long as you feel comfortable with it as well.

• 1:08:55Speaker 02

  Yep, 100%.

• 1:08:58Ramit Sethi?

  It's pretty beautiful to hear. You know what I really loved hearing the two of you was seeing this shift from transactional to connective. And that is such a deep transition because consider that right now, when you're in the transactional phase, it is built so that you question each other.

• 1:09:24Ramit Sethi?

  However, when you move to connective, it's totally different. The idea is I love you, I trust you, and by default, I know that you're going to do the right thing. It infuses its way into every decision you make about money. Let's go back now to the CSP. If we took this ability to go from transactional to connectedness, what would change in the CSP?

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  The fixed costs can change by proportion of salary. Perhaps that can increase what we end up spending together. And maybe rather than just a single joint savings account, we can actually have more joint vacation, joint other things that can insert into our ability to spend.

• 1:10:15Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, 100%. Yes. Let's go through it each because this is where you actually get to design your rich life. Okay, so first of all, do you know what your rich life is? I know you want a house. What else?

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  That house is gonna be renovated by an award-winning architect.

• 1:10:32Ramit Sethi?

  Nice. I love it. Okay, great. Keep going.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  I would fly business class with my wife and enjoy that and experience it.

• 1:10:42Ramit Sethi?

  Whoa, okay, love it.

• 1:10:45Speaker 02

  And then because we are immigrants here, I think that allows us to be also open to an idea of having One house in each continent. So one in UK, Europe, one here in New York, and one in Korea, and one in Australia. I think that would be amazing.

• 1:11:05Ramit Sethi?

  It's powerful. I love that. Okay, give me something more day to day.

• 1:11:10Speaker 01

  Why don't we sign up for a more expensive gym membership that allows us access to a pool or a personal trainer?

• 1:11:18Ramit Sethi?

  I love that, by the way. I like that it's individual. And maybe Victoria joins along or maybe not. That's up to you. But I like that you're picking something individual, David. Is there something together? Rich life on a weekly basis?

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Having a meal prep service that's made by nutritionists that knows our body. I think outsourcing that would definitely save hours and hours weekly for us.

• 1:11:43Ramit Sethi?

  Amazing. Love that. Anything else?

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  We love hosting people at our house. And one idea that came to my mind recently was bringing in a private chef to really wine and dine our community and our friends to really nurture and develop that relationship and deepen it.

• 1:12:03Ramit Sethi?

  First of all, very telling that your your idea for a rich life is bringing people together. I think that's awesome. And I think what I'm seeing both of you do is to break the shackles that you yourselves have put upon yourselves. And they're not real. They're not real. Like, if I want to have friends over for dinner once a month, we could do that.

• 1:12:25Speaker 02

  I think there's definitely a scarcity mindset and some extension of frugality that was taught and that was instilled in our upbringings, both together. So I think that's definitely pulling us back.

• 1:12:41Ramit Sethi?

  If you are not frugal, then who are you?

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  I think she would have already bought a house, designed a house, and orders Whole Foods online without questioning. And brings in Marie Kondo like cleaning consultant to organize her closet and have a cleaner come in every single week instead of once a month.

• 1:13:08Ramit Sethi?

  Keep going.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  And have a nutritionist to build out her entire meal plan to nourish her body and have a personal trainer to optimize her fitness and physical health. Uh, and have an awesome executive assistant who takes care of most of the admin things in life. Makes her life so much easier.

• 1:13:32Ramit Sethi?

  I love this. This is so good. And what about with David?

• 1:13:36Speaker 02

  With David, I imagine our day to day to be more free from actually work because we were able to spend money to delegate a lot of our responsibilities that we don't enjoy taking on. And we would be only spending time on things that matter the most with our own businesses and with us.

• 1:13:57Ramit Sethi?

  How do you feel saying all that?

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  It was very cathartic in some ways to be able to just describe the Victoria who was living that rich life already. And I want to be her. And I want to have that life with David together.

• 1:14:16Ramit Sethi?

  I think you're this close. I think, I think you are her. You just can make a few changes and the rest of that stuff can come into your life. David, what did you think hearing Victoria paint that picture?

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  I could see a weight falling off her shoulders, just allowing her to openly speak about what she wants. Again, these aren't surprises. She's mentioned these here and there, but there's been things that have held her back. And I think if, and part of that might be myself, right? In the way that I want to be fifty fifty. And so if I change my psychology to that connectedness, not transaction.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  And see our collective income together. And I think that would be great to experience that together. Psychologically, we've always had this fear of living beyond our means. You've clearly shown that our means are much larger than what we're living. That's kind of what I wanted to nail was that it's okay to do this and we're not going to suddenly become indebted. And especially as immigrants here, there's always that fear, having seen our parents almost lose it all, that I think it dramatically just is instilled in us that there's always this fear that tomorrow may not come, or that so tomorrow may not have what we have today.

• 1:15:35Ramit Sethi?

  I think it's um, it's really beautiful to watch the two of you talk about your joint rich life together. We started separate and now we're talking together. And part of building something bigger together is actually starting with yourself. The two of you have worked really hard and there is no virtue in living a smaller life than you have to. Can I share a story?

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, please.

• 1:16:06Ramit Sethi?

  My wife and I went on a long honeymoon and on the last day of our honeymoon, we were in Thailand and we had this beautiful resort and watching the sunset. And my wife said, at the end of a trip like this, I would usually be sad, but now I know if we ever want to come back, we can just come back. And I felt so good because she was so abundant. What I learned as an entrepreneur was when I surround myself with beauty, I get inspired. When I stay at beautiful places, they're tend to be expensive. I see all these other people staying there for weeks, sometimes months at a time. And it forces me to remember

• 1:16:49Ramit Sethi?

  there are a lot of people out there who are happy to pay for great products and services. I come back, I'm not trying to discount, I'm trying to create amazing value and my students or customers are happy to pay. So am I just justifying staying at a nice hotel? Maybe. But I'm also taking lessons from my personal experience and I'm channeling that as an entrepreneur. How does that strike you?

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  That is the missing piece in my life, thinking about.

• 1:17:22Speaker 02

  Treating yourself is not spoiling yourself, or it's not discounting the value of the company. In fact, it could add more value to the company because you're in a better-

• 1:17:32Ramit Sethi?

  Wait a minute, don't you run a skincare business?

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Ramit Sethi?

  Isn't the whole point, like, treat yourself?

• 1:17:39Speaker 02

  Wellness.

• 1:17:40Ramit Sethi?

  Well-

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  What am I doing right now? I know, wellness does not exist in my life.

• 1:17:46Ramit Sethi?

  This is so funny because you know, you hear all these like athletes who have the perfect nutritionist and they track their macros and stuff. And then sometimes there's a story about like the absolute top athlete LeBron or whoever, and he just eats like hamburgers all day. And you're just like, what? This isn't fair at all. Is that not what we're seeing right here? You're all about wellness except for yourself. Oh.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:18:09Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, amazing.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  It's my Korean DNA to torture myself.

• 1:18:15Ramit Sethi?

  Actually, as an entrepreneur, you have a beautiful way to justify it, which is you can enjoy life. You will see your business do better because you're going to show up rejuvenated, energized, positive. And eventually you'll start to see those connections. I know I did. There are a few things I would do to just like tidy all this stuff up real quick. Can I share?

• 1:18:40Speaker 02

  Please.

• 1:18:40Ramit Sethi?

  Yep, all right. If I had an eighty-four million dollar business, I would be taking some cash off the top. Like, solve my financial problem forever. You don't want an entrepreneur to be sitting around worried about their first house when they run an eighty million dollar business. It just makes no sense. Whoa, look at the body language right now. Victoria, what's going on?

• 1:18:59Speaker 02

  I think there is definitely a financial struggle related to the first home purchase or the certain design that I want to pursue. And also, I have never taken any distribution out of my company and I've only started, you know, taking salary in the past four years. And all the salaries that I get, I actually pay in taxes. So I'm not really left with a lot of things. So right now- I do worry about my first home purchase a lot, but I think I shouldn't be.

• 1:19:34Ramit Sethi?

  No.

• 1:19:34Speaker 02

  And the business that I built should solve this problem for me. So then I can run the business.

• 1:19:41Ramit Sethi?

  Honestly, the way you talk about your house, you told me you have this architect in mind. This sounds like something that would be a major point of pride for you. And if that is the case, then I can think of no better way to leverage the success you have created. Pay yourself an amount that would solve this problem forever. And probably it would, my guess is it would have no material impact on your business. And if it's gonna make you really happy, then you should do it. Next, I would get clear together, both of you. What is our rich life? There are some questions that I think the two of you probably have not gotten clarity on such as, if we continue on the path we're on, investing the amount we're investing, how much are we gonna have?

• 1:20:26Ramit Sethi?

  The answer, of course, is a ton of money. Even if this business goes to zero tomorrow, you're still gonna have millions and millions and millions of dollars. Okay, and we're not even talking about the eighty-eight plus million dollars.

• 1:20:41Ramit Sethi?

  All right, whatever. The point is, you're gonna have a lot of money. That allows you to take the fear away of like, hey, anything less than X dollars, we should not be worrying about. Yeah, I call it a worry-free number. It's a number below which we simply do not worry about. So like when we were kids, it was like a pack of gum, 25 cents, whatever. What's the number for you right now?

• 1:21:05Speaker 02

  Thousand.

• 1:21:06Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 1:21:07Speaker 01

  I also agree.

• 1:21:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:21:11Ramit Sethi?

  So let's play this out. Let's say you go to a nice restaurant and you see an extra appetizer you wanna get, but it's like 30 bucks. Are you both just like, yeah, let's just get it, no question, don't even think about it, get it?

• 1:21:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:21:24Ramit Sethi?

  I think that this worry-free number is a good guideline. My suggestion is you try it for six months.

• 1:21:32Ramit Sethi?

  Really go all in and after six months, you can adjust it. If you find that you're spending a thousand dollars a day, which is never going to happen, then you can adjust it. If you find that like you checked off all these boxes and you're like, hey, I want to actually up this number, you can also up it. But a good way to make decisions is let's pick an approach and stick with it. Both of us have to exercise these muscles and after six months, we'll take a look and review it. Okay, a couple of other things I would change. I would set your accounts up using the approach in my book. I have it in chapter nine and that is all the money comes into one joint account. You have a joint checking.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  Checking.

• 1:22:17Ramit Sethi?

  You have a joint savings. Your bills are paid primarily because your future is together. So most of your bills are going to be joint. Of course, you each have a no questions asked, individual checking and individual savings account. And you do whatever you want with no questions asked. You would have multiple savings accounts, roughly up to five, and those would be for specific things. I actually think this is where the two of you could talk about your rich life and then start to put the money aside.

• 1:22:47Ramit Sethi?

  Sometimes when I'm talking to a couple, I ask if I can just tell them what I would do in their situation. I had to speak up here because I see so much of myself in them. And I also know that a few small changes could make a major difference to them. When I was starting my business, deciding how much to pay myself. It's like, what? You never grew up being able to change your own salary. So I had no idea how to think about that. And then as my business grew and I became a little bit more savvy and I had more advisors who could give me advice, I learned, oh, here are the trade-offs when it comes to how much you pay yourself.

• 1:23:29Ramit Sethi?

  I also saw a lot of entrepreneurs who pay themselves almost nothing. And I realized I don't want that for myself. I want to have a healthy salary so that I can run my life. Sure, I'd like to take some distributions because of the business structure that I'm in. But it's really important not just to grow your business, but also to take care of your personal finances. And having done that over 20 years and really built up a cadence, tried different things, I've come to find the area that feels good for me. Every founder is different, but I wanted to share. For example, Victoria increasing her salary and taking some money out of the business could change the way she feels about her finances.

• 1:24:12Ramit Sethi?

  She'd feel more secure, more safe, while massively de-risking her financial position. And David and her deciding on a rich life vision together, and then making that happen, starting with something small, would really help them connect over money. In other words, this business is great. It's doing fantastic. Let's not cause anything to harm that. You can also have a very successful business and plant the seeds in your own personal and financial relationship. And finally, a monthly money meeting. Notice the reaction here. What am I noticing from the two of you smiling right now? What's going on?

• 1:24:52Speaker 02

  I don't know. I feel like it feels simple and doable, and it'll bring a lot more joy than I would have imagined. Because I think there is a fear, discomfort about the topic of just money and combining money together. But it does feel so easy, and that should be done, and that it would better our life together. And I'm looking forward to it. That's why I was smiling.

• 1:25:20Speaker 01

  And I'm just surprised that she's looking forward to it because a lot of times she doesn't like things to feel like work. And I think we've had to be a bit more spontaneous with communication. That's why I'm surprised, but also looking forward to it because that's very much my vibe, which is let's sit down periodically and just talk about it.

• 1:25:40Ramit Sethi?

  I love that. One of the best things in a marriage is to discover surprise about your partner. Right? What a beautiful feeling. Okay, this meeting, you can have so much fun with it. So you can imagine, one of your first questions before you even have the meeting would be, hey, how could we make this meeting magical?

• 1:26:02Ramit Sethi?

  And it might be that you each alternate planning it. One of you could plan it at a beautiful, quiet cafe. Another one could plan it outside in Central Park. Whatever, it's up to you. And of course, you want to give yourself the space to sit down. You know, you might want to have a computer or a phone. But this is an experience. And yes, we will get to the nuts and bolts. But actually, the most important thing of these meetings is, how do we want to feel afterwards? Do we want to feel that we got to the second decimal place? Maybe. Or do we want to feel connected? That we are teammates and partners? I think that's the one.

• 1:26:43Ramit Sethi?

  And when you do all those things, when you get specific with your company about taking some off the top, when you combine your income, when you have your rich life vision, when you run your numbers and you have your multiple savings accounts and your account setup, guess what? You're not going to be Venmo-ing back and forth anymore. It's just eliminated. You're not going to be talking about random transactional costs. That's going to be gone. You're not going to be critiquing each other because you've set the structures upright and you've got your money psychology working to improve every month. That's how we do it. Whether you have $50,000 or 80 million plus.

• 1:27:26Ramit Sethi?

  I want to thank David and Victoria for sharing their inspiring story. When was the last time you heard a couple worth $80 million talking about money? Never. This kind of stuff only happens behind closed doors. That's why I love greeting all kinds of people on my podcast. People who are in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. People who have tens of millions of dollars. All of it. Because we don't shine a light on this. We only have caricatures of what poor and middle-class and rich people do. I want you to see how they actually talk. And more importantly, how they actually feel. Now, what's interesting is their unique perspectives, their cultural upbringings, the gender dynamics, the fact that they are entrepreneurs. I want to congratulate you on your success.

• 1:28:11Ramit Sethi?

  What excites me about this is that clearly the two of you love each other. You clearly respect each other. You have the financial means to live a very rich life. And with a little tweaking, you can actually have so much more fun along the way. This was such a fun episode to do. I want to thank Delete Me for partnering with us on this very special episode and making it possible to protect David and Victoria's anonymity. Let's check out their follow-up videos. First, Victoria.

• 1:28:39Speaker 02

  One of the biggest surprise was definitely me feeling really ashamed about my wealth. I don't know why there is like an inkling in me that I want to kind of hide that away from my YouTube audience or from my direct network, even though I'm following a lot of people who self-made themselves and they are open and transparent about how they build wealth. And I take so much insight and knowledge and lessons from those people. A little change that I personally made was ordering groceries online and ordering organic groceries without just seeing the cost incremental. And then jointly, we're exploring options to merge our finances together. And I think next step, we'll be looking for a post-nup process

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  and get some lawyers involved to draft an agreement and set some rules and boundaries and values, of course. So I think that's something that we're really excited to go into.

• 1:29:35Ramit Sethi?

  And now, David.

• 1:29:38Speaker 01

  Since the podcast, I have learned what it would take psychologically and physically to make a transition from individual transactions to connective financial decisions. It doesn't have to be 50/50 to feel equitable and respectful. And I think what surprised me the most was that I can be more abundant in my thinking and actions just by making very small changes and how limiting our lives were by joining our relationship together, but not our finances. So I'm really looking forward to that next date night that we have, which is coming up, where I'm going to make it a whole experience and call it our Rich Life Date Night, where we can talk openly, but really enjoy ourselves. Specific changes. I personally am topping up my checking accounts.

• 1:30:22Speaker 01

  It had more than a thousand dollars on it for guilt free spending because I can do it and I should do it. And for us is to really stop these vermo crests, setting up our shared values, defining what our rich life is and starting to set up these joint accounts for our rich life together.