Charles Barkley on Skinny Luka, the Eagles, LeBron, Jokic, Josh Allen, and His Uneasy ESPN Partnership

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Charles Barkley to make his annual NFL champion pick before discussing the second apron, the “best NBA player” argument, Barkley's ESPN partnership, and much more (3:53)! Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Charles Barkley Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Steve Ceruti This episode is sponsored by State Farm®. Don’t settle for just any insurance when there’s State Farm. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetrades. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook, where they have a fun promotion for NFL kickoff and for each of the Week 1 primetime games. Here's how it works.

• 0:40Bill Simmons?

  You can place an anytime TD bet on any Week 1 NFL primetime using your Profit Boost, any game. And if the player you pick scores either the first or the last touchdown of the game, you earn a share of $2 million in bonus bets. So for instance, Philly-Dallas, if you think Jalen Hurts is going to score the first touchdown, that's plus 470. I would vote for that. I would vote for George Pickens with a garbage time touchdown to be the last TD scorer. That's 12 to 1. Do both of them. Knock yourself out. Try to get a share of that $2 million. Go ahead and place an anytime TD bet on FanDuel for the game. You get to cheer for the first and last TD to win a share of $1 million in bonus bets. So there's that. I put up a 400th rewatchables on Monday night.

• 1:24Bill Simmons?

  It was me and Van Lathan and Chris Ryan. We did American Gangster. Denzel, I think, moved into maybe second place for most rewatchable appearances, 12 or 13 for him. This was a really fun episode. You can find on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. We're doing a bunch of football stuff this week. Ringer Fantasy Football Show is in high gear. You have the Ringer Gambling Show, which got going. The Ringer Tailgate, our college football, which did really, really well. Ringer NFL with Sheil. So we're humming, heading toward Thursday night. It's going to be me and House on Thursday and maybe some other stuff. I might do a fourth podcast this week. I would, I would keep it on that. There's so much content. I thought the guest we're about to have, Charles Barkley, was just going to be the first part of the show.

• 2:08Bill Simmons?

  But man, once we got going, it was almost, almost an hour and a half. We covered a lot. We covered a lot of basketball, his football. He comes on every year to do football stuff, make his picks. He picked the Eagles correctly last year. But we ended up kind of diving into what happened at TNT and what's going to happen with him at ESPN and Inside the NBA. So. Always great to have him. He's honestly one of my favorite, favorite people. And I was talking to Jimmy Kimmel once about this. I think he might be the best guest. If he's not in the best, if he's not the best guest, he's a one seed in whatever the tournament is. Just can go on any talk show, can come on any podcast. He's just the best. So anyway, he's the podcast today, the one and only Charles Barkley. It's next, we're gonna take a break. We're doing a Pearl Jam and then Sir Charles.

• 2:52Bill Simmons?

  It's the Bill Simmons Podcast presented by FanDuel and the NFL is back and thank God. FanDuel has everything. They got an awesome app. They have SGPs. They have great futures. They have good prop bets, live betting, your way bets, clean app. It's great to use. Been using it for a few years. Every time I go back to Boston or any place that has FanDuel and I get to use it, I'm always excited. I'm on an airplane runway. You done the airplane runway?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:18Bill Simmons?

  How sweet.

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Everybody.

• 3:19Bill Simmons?

  Airplane runway.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  There should be a button, the runway.

• 3:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm on the airplane runway. I gotta get this in. Get your bets in, build something bold, make every game feel bigger. Download the FanDuel app or head to FanDuel.com/BS to get started. The Ringer, committed to responsible gaming, please visit RG-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLE or visit RG-help.com. Call 1-887-897-777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Paid endorsement.

• 4:24Bill Simmons?

  All right, Grandpa Charles Barkley is here. He's visiting the grandkids. He's getting ready for football season. He comes on every year to make picks and I think you picked the Eagles last year. And even if you didn't, I'm gonna say that you did.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  I did pick the Eagles and I'm gonna pick them again this year, brother.

• 4:39Bill Simmons?

  Comeback. Give me, give me the back to back. Give me the explanation.

• 4:43Speaker 02

  Well, they got the same offense. Uh, I'm not related to this guy, but his name is Saquon Barkley. I'm gonna claim him because he's a Barkley. He is phenomenal. We still got the great wide receiver tandem. Got a great tight end. Jalen's phenomenal. Now, defense is pretty young. You know, we going through that transition. A lot of the older guys have moved on, but I think Big Fangio by the end of the season, hell, my guys rolling, man. I can't wait.

• 5:11Bill Simmons?

  What about the hunger issue after you've won the title? It seemed like it hurt the Chiefs last year. The Chiefs were even complaining during Super Bowl week about, oh, man, it's starting to feel like old hat for us. Do you believe like with football when you haven't won yet, getting back? No?

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Well, they won three. Now, there's a little bit difference.

• 5:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  You know, when you won three, when we get to three, we might get a little bored, but we only have one. But no, uh, first of all, I don't, I don't believe that because if you get, well, it takes so much to get to the NBA finals. And to get to the Super Bowl, you don't take that for granted.

• 5:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, I, the great Dan Marino said one time, he says, you know, I got there my first year. And then 10, 12, 13 years later, I never got back again. I remember having the same conversation with Allen Iverson. He's like, man, I thought I was gonna be in the finals like three or four times. I got there one time. I got there one time. You know, I said, so this notion that you're gonna get back there, man, when you get a chance to win the Super Bowl. Because Bill, let me tell you something. You have to be honest with yourself as a player. It is hard to do. There's very few times you actually have a chance to win the championship. I, I played in the NBA for 16 years. I think I had a chance to win the title four times.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  That's it. That's it. You know, Shaquille, who's one of the greatest ever, he played in the league for over 20 years. He won four championships. So this notion that you're gonna win all the time. Nah, man, when you got a chance to win, you better win.

• 6:50Bill Simmons?

  Also, it's a percentages thing. If you're in a 30-team league, only one team could win the championship every year. We, somehow we've underrated how hard it is to win a championship and all the different things that can go wrong. We just saw last year with the Celtics, you know, you win the title and then your best guy gets hurt.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it takes a perfect storm to win the champion. If you gotta have a couple of great players, obviously, but all your guys got to be in their prime, your role player, like the Denver Nuggets. When they got the best player in the world, then they got rid of all their guys on the bench.

• 7:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Thinking like, you know, we got Joker, we got Aaron, we got Michael Porter Jr., we got, uh, Jamal. They got no bench. They got rid of KCP and Bruce Brown. Like, everything has to go well. I mean, think about this, though. If the Eagles don't go out and get Saquon Barkley, they don't win the championship.

• 7:48Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  They do not. So, man, everything has to go well. Listen, I love the Eagles, no matter what, but if they don't go out and get Saquon, they don't win. I mean, same thing, hey, how about this? Your Celtics, if they don't go out and get Porzingis, they don't win. But, uh, also, I don't want to leave out Drew Holiday, but if they don't go out and get Porzingis two years ago, they don't win the championship.

• 8:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I said a couple, uh, podcasts ago that the Eagles reminded me of the 2000's Patriots, with how they're putting the team together, be it like getting Jalen Carter with the ninth pick, right? You go back and do that draft again, he should have gone in the top three. He falls to nine for a variety of reasons. Trading for AJ Brown, trading a pick for him. Like, they've just consistently out-thought teams, which I think you kind of have to do in the NBA now with all these new dumb rules they have.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  No, they don't have dumb rules. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, cut the bullshit. They ain't got no dumb rules. Let me tell you something. I'm so glad that you asked that question.

• 8:45Bill Simmons?

  Is this a second apron defense?

• 8:47Speaker 02

  No, no. Yes. Why did they have to come up with bullshit rules, Bill? Because all these guys want to play together and not compete. How many great players do you need on one team? See, this is what bothers me in my generation. They made up these rules, like these young people. Well, if I had a dollar for every time I heard the second apron, why did Adam Silver have to put the second apron in? Because LeBron got all his guys together. KD wanted to go play with the Warriors. What? Wait, y'all don't like, don't want to win the championship and just compete against each other? Don't get mad at Adam Silver.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Because y'all all want to play together and dominate the league because y'all don't want to compete. I hate when I hear, man, the second apron's not fair. What do you mean it's not fair? If y'all stop all wanting to play together, we wouldn't have to make up bogus ass rules to stop y'all from playing together.

• 9:49Bill Simmons?

  This is interesting because I completely disagree with you.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 9:52Bill Simmons?

  I think they came up with it because the Players Association, I don't think realized that putting these rules in is going to make all these teams blow up. And you're basically going to be able to afford two or three guys max. And then you're going to have to cut corners everywhere else. Like the Celtics, they had no chance of keeping Drew Holiday and Porzingis on this team of this nucleus.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  But, but, but Airball, that team was getting paid.

• 10:16Bill Simmons?

  Right, but I'm saying that, but now, but they did, they did a really smart thing with the way they stacked their roster. Like, okay, see now, they've made all of these really smart moves to put the roster that together. And they're not going to be able to keep it together, even though they were smart.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  They're paying three guys, they're paying their top three players, Bill.

• 10:34Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  If, listen, as much as I love LeBron, when he started doing his thing with Bosch and Wade, that was the first wave.

• 10:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  The second wave was KD going to the Warriors. Adam Silver had to do something. We can't let one team hoard all the good players. I mean, they had Klay, Steph and Draymond, they didn't need KD.

• 10:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's true, but that, that was a unique situation. Think to me, it's like in the mid eighties.

• 10:59Speaker 02

  What do you mean, unique situation?

• 11:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, because the cap spiked. That was the year, like, Joe came Noah and Alan Crabbe, all those dudes.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  They went there to dominate the league. The reason LeBron went to Miami so he can get him and Wade and Bosch together. If all these guys didn't want to play together, Bill, Adam Silver wouldn't have to come up with this sacred, this second apron thing. That's the only reason, like, my, my sons. They were paying KD, uh, Bill and Booker each $60 million. How many good players do you need?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  You think I didn't want to play? You don't think in my heyday, I want to play with KD and Bradley Bill? Like, like, they're like, we can't pay everybody. They had to come up, this is a bogus rule. I agree with you. But if all these guys don't want to play together, Adam Silver wouldn't have to make up rules.

• 11:57Bill Simmons?

  I was thinking it would be like in the mid eighties. If Philly had you and Andrew Tony and Mo Cheeks and Moses Malone and Dr. J.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  No, it'd be more like if Michael Jordan went to the Celtics to play with either. If Michael Jordan, who was the best player in the league, three or four years before he won the championship. If he had to went to Boston or went to LA, that's what it would be like.

• 12:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but you stepped on my joke that I was gonna make.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 12:23Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna say it would be like if Philly, because they couldn't afford anyone, had to trade Moses Malone for Jeff Ruhl and Cliff Robinson. And then you were gonna say, oh, no, that's actually what they did and it was really stupid. I was just, I thought it was gonna be the joke I made.

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Right now, let me tell you something right now. You know, I got a lot of love and respect for you. It's too soon for that bullshit.

• 12:44Bill Simmons?

  For 39 years.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Let me tell you something. I have been, I have been, I'm not, I'm, I'm being serious for one second now. I have been bitter and angry because that cost me at least one championship, probably two. Because I was just becoming a star.

• 13:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  We had the number one pick in the draft. And me and the guys went out to celebrate that night. This is night before the draft. And we got drunk as hell. I'm like, God, I'm like, my third year in the league. I'm, I think that was the first time I became an all star. I'm excited for the future.

• 13:23Bill Simmons?

  Was Tony, Andrew Tony's healthy at this point?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  No, he's out the league. But like, we still got a good team. I got, uh, Percy Hawkins, Johnny Dawkins. And the only thing we were missing was a big guy. We got, I got Brad Doherty coming in for the next 10, 15 years. I like my chances against anybody, anybody.

• 13:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  And we go out and celebrate.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  I get home around two thirty in the morning. My phone rings around five o'clock in the morning. It's a great reporter in Philly, a guy named Phil Jastner. He said, Charles, I need to talk to you. I feel we've been out celebrating. We got, I'm getting Brad Doherty tomorrow. He's like, well, better hold off on that. The Sixers made a trade.

• 14:07Bill Simmons?

  Uh.

• 14:08Speaker 02

  And I said, Phil, there's no way the Sixers are that stupid. You trade the number one pick in the draft. He says, and it get worse. I said, well, it can't get any worse than that. So I said, this true story, Bill. I said, Phil, let me take a shower. So I want to make sure I got my head together. So I get in the shower, take a long hot shower. I call Phil back. It's about five thirty in the morning. Phil, explain to me what's going on. He says, well, you guys have just traded the number one pick in the draft to Cleveland. I says, you trade the number one pick in the draft. Number one, you trade the number one pick. That's stupid. Then you trade him to the competition?

• 14:51Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 14:52Speaker 02

  I think if I remember correctly, I can't remember. I think we had just played, we had just beaten the Cavs in the playoffs. I think we lost to the Bulls that year, if I remember correctly. But we had just played the Cavs and beat them in a five game series. So not only you trade the number one pick, you trade him to the competition. Then they traded for Roy Hanson, who's a good friend of mine, who was a decent player, but clearly wasn't gonna be Brad Doherty. I thought Brad Doherty was gonna be an all, well, he was an all star for the next ten years, which he was basically. Then Phil says, oh, it gets worse. I said, what's worse than that? He says, you guys traded Moses Malone to the Washington Wizards, to the Bullets at the time.

• 15:39Speaker 02

  For Jeff Ruhl, I said Jeff Ruhl hadn't played basketball in two years.

• 15:43Bill Simmons?

  Played a bad back.

• 15:45Speaker 02

  I says.

• 15:46Bill Simmons?

  Didn't, didn't they try to trade Dr. J to Utah too? That was the other thing that was floating around.

• 15:50Speaker 02

  I think that might have been the year before. It was some time, but it was just for this one draft. I says, so you're telling me, and I see, cause I thought Moses, Moses, who was my mentor, who helped me lose 50 pounds, pounds of becoming an all-star. I thought he'd been great for me and Brad Daugherty for the next two or three years. Then he could walk away, retire.

• 16:09Bill Simmons?

  The league was big back then, cause you had Samson Olajuwon, you had Mikail and Parrish.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Oh, I had to beat Bird, Mikail and Parrish.

• 16:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  And I was like, Jeff Ruler hadn't played in two years. And I think me and Jeff Ruler played two games together, Bill. So not only we traded the number one pick in the draft for Roy Henson, we traded Moses to DC for Jeff Ruhl and Cliff Robertson. And from that point on, we went in a spiral, obviously downhill, uh, because the Celtics were on their last legs.

• 16:46Bill Simmons?

  It was between the Pistons and Bulls come in.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Between, yeah. But you know, if they gave me Brad Daugherty, I would have felt pretty good about myself. Because the Bulls, the Bulls didn't have anybody who can handle Brad Daugherty. I don't know. They had Bill Cartwright.

• 16:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  I was like, no, I'm good. I'm good. And man, from that point on, I was so angry. Then I had, I had to spend another four years just sucking in Philly. And it was brutal. It was brutal. But I blame the Sixers for making arguably one of the worst trades in NBA history.

• 17:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, so then you, you leave in 92 and I was going to ask you about this later, but let's do it now. Are you, so you're watching the Luka Doncic? He's now skinny Luka. He's got the eye of the tiger. He wants to prove Dallas wrong. You were in this exact same spot. When you were headed to Phoenix, you were in the dream team that year. You're in the best shape of your life. You're motivated. You want to stick it to Philly. Like, do you see parallels when you're, when you're watching and reading the stuff about him right now?

• 17:44Speaker 02

  I think Luca is a great player. I think he's a lot younger than I was, to be honest with you. And listen, I, I, as long as, as long as I got some help, because it was interesting. I had zero idea where I was gonna go. I remember like the last couple of years, they had me on the cover of the sport news. They had me like, it was like eight different teams trying to get me. And I didn't care. I just wanted to get the hell out of there. And what's really interesting about the story, Bill. So that's when I get arrested in Milwaukee for fighting. And I beat Just America, I beat that rap. I've never, I've been arrested a few times for fighting, but I've never been found guilty. Let's get that out the way. So.

• 18:25Bill Simmons?

  Let me write that down.

• 18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So we're in Milwaukee. I'm on trial for that week. I spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers. There was no way I was gonna get convicted because I didn't do anything. So me and my attorney, we spent the whole week, because I didn't want to piss people in Philadelphia off, because Philly was great to me. We spent the whole week writing a letter to the 76ers. I said, basically I said, hey, guys, I don't want to come out publicly, because Philadelphia's been great to me. I love the fans. They've always been great to me, but y'all suck as an organization. I will never play for y'all again, ever. Ever.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  So I get acquitted Friday morning, catch a flight back to Philly. I bought a whole plane of drinks, Bill. I said, y'all drink up. Nobody knows what's going on. I just, I just got acquitted. So I bought the whole plane of drinks. I don't give a damn.

• 19:29Bill Simmons?

  I didn't know you could do that.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, Bill, that's when you had to pay for drinks back in the day, remember? Like, dude, we flew commercial my first.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  Four years in the league. At that time, remember, well, first class got free drinks. You had to pay for them and coach. See, Bill, you've been famous and rich for so long, you forget about the old days.

• 19:50Bill Simmons?

  I just had never heard about anyone buying a plane drinks.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Well, you had to pay for drinks and coach back then.

• 19:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:57Bill Simmons?

  But so that's good. That's a good.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  What's really ironic, which is really crazy. I get home that Friday night. I'd ordered a set of, because every time you went to Phoenix.

• 20:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  You got fitted and paying for a set of golf clubs.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  So I had forgot, because I think we went out, well, we always went out west for Christmas, got the circus was in town in Philly. We always did a two week trip during Christmas, got the circus in town.

• 20:27Bill Simmons?

  They had that in Boston, too. The team would just disappear. Yeah, for two and a half weeks.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I get back home on a Friday night. And me and the boys, there's a set of paying golf clubs on my front porch. I live in a gated community, put a big box. I get, I thought I ordered these golf course, these clubs back in December. I totally forgot I ordered the golf club. We go out and celebrate. Have a great weekend. Sunday night, I get a call from my agent. It's Sunday night. We're gonna release the letter Monday morning.

• 21:06Speaker 02

  I get a call from my agent, Sunday night, you've been traded to the Phoenix Suns. You got like an eight o'clock flight to Phoenix the next day. So it was really crazy. I got the golf club from Phoenix at my house that Friday. And we're gonna release the letter Monday morning. I get traded that Sunday night and I'm on an eight o'clock flight to Phoenix that morning. It was, I think it was like in August sometime, if I remember correctly.

• 21:34Bill Simmons?

  So you weren't angry about it. You were relieved.

• 21:36Speaker 02

  I was relieved that it was over because I had to hear the rumors for three years.

• 21:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and you knew it was coming. Whereas Luca had no idea it was coming. And it seemed like he got blindsided for a month.

• 21:46Speaker 02

  You know, that's one of the weirdest things. I don't even know how you keep that a secret.

• 21:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, you keep it a secret when it's the two GMs, basically, who know each other.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  That's 100%.

• 21:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 02

  The two GMs. But you know, it's gonna be interesting because.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  I think the Rockets, the NBA is gonna be interested next year because I think the Rockets and the Nuggets probably had the best summer.

• 22:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 02

  Uh, obviously getting KD is gonna make, gonna really improve the Rockets, but they finally got Luca some help. I, I love what the Nuggets did this summer.

• 22:26Bill Simmons?

  Me too.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Um, but you know, obviously if you got Luca and LeBron, you're gonna be competitive, but I don't think it's earth shattering like the Lakers are gonna win the West. Like I say, OKC ain't going anywhere. I think if you had to rank them in order, I'd go OKC,

• 22:48Speaker 02

  Rockets, Denver.

• 22:51Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  And then probably the Lakers.

• 22:53Bill Simmons?

  Rockets over Denver.

• 22:56Speaker 02

  Well, cause I, man, I'm telling you, they are so deep. Um, they didn't give up anything to really get KD.

• 23:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would have Denver two and, and the Rockets three. I would have Minnesota over the Lakers though.

• 23:11Bill Simmons?

  I just think the, the LeBron, the, the age that he's at and the defensive stuff with them.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Luca's in shape. That adds another element. Uh, like I say, uh, we're not gonna say, this ain't like March Madness. Well, when people be arguing over who's 69 and 70, Bill.

• 23:29Bill Simmons?

  Right, true.

• 23:30Speaker 02

  I, I always love every year that March Madness, somebody's pissed off. I'm like, yo, man, nobody goes around saying I'm number 69 and 70. If you're not one of the top 68 teams, shut the hell up. Don't be saying we not the, we should have got in.

• 23:44Bill Simmons?

  You played with a couple of Deandre Ayton types in your career. I'm a little dubious of that one too. It's the, the guy who's, who the super talented guy who's been disappointing everywhere he's been, but maybe this time it'll be different, especially when it's a center. Those guys usually don't work out.

• 23:59Speaker 02

  No, you know what's gonna be different? He gonna be a free agent. Those are, those are the most dangerous guys.

• 24:08Bill Simmons?

  You know, one year, the guys should be paid year by year?

• 24:12Speaker 02

  Well, like, there used to be a thing back in my day. One of the reasons NBA started cutting salaries and short-term deals. There were guys, and I can name some guys, who played like crap for two or three years. And then all of a sudden became Bill Russell their last year.

• 24:31Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  And then as soon as they signed that big deal, went back to being a regular dude. So I think what, to piggyback on your point, I think that's what, that's one of the things that's gonna make the Lakers interesting because Aiden got to ball out this year. Because if he does not play well, he not gonna get no big deal.

• 24:53Bill Simmons?

  See, I think-

• 24:54Speaker 02

  And let me tell you something. If he don't ball out playing with LeBron and Luca, he ain't never gonna ball out.

• 25:00Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 25:01Speaker 02

  You talk about the perfect scenario. But he's gonna be so dangerous this year, because he gonna be a free agent.

• 25:09Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel Football Fans. We're done waiting. Football's coming. It's coming Thursday, it's coming Friday, it's coming Sunday, it's coming Monday. FanDuel giving all customers a no-sweat NFL bet for Week 1. Moneyline Player Props same-game parlays here. No-sweat bet can be used on any NFL wager type. You just wanted to go Denver moneyline and do an alt-over? Knock yourself out. If it doesn't win, you'll get your bonus bets back. I am going to be sharing all my favorite bets on Thursday when we start the Ringer 107 contest. But you can guess if you've listened to this podcast, there's some teams I'm leaning toward that I like for the season.

• 25:49Bill Simmons?

  Seattle, Denver, maybe Jacksonville is a one-week trying to convince us they're good. Stay tuned for Thursday for my picks. Visit FanDuel.com/BS to kick off the NFL season with a no-sweat bet every game day during Week 1. Play your game with FanDuel, an official sports betting partner in the NFL. Must be 21-plus, present in select states, or 18-plus, present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Refund issued as non-deductible bonus bets that expire seven days after receipt. Max refund unless otherwise specified, $5. Restrictions apply, including token expiration. See terms at sportsbook.FanDuel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMER or visit RG-HELP.COM. Call 1-8879-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 26:32Bill Simmons?

  This episode is presented by State Farm. Having insurance, not the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting the leadership of a team captain on the football field, but getting a C captains. Sure, they're both captains, but who's gonna run your offense? You wouldn't settle for anything less than the best for your team. So don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting the help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Well, the OKC, though, finding out after the playoffs that Jalen Williams had a fucked up wrist the whole time and they, we didn't even know about it. The fact that he wasn't healthy and still played well. The fact that they seemed like young, you know, that I know you were at some of the games too.

• 27:16Bill Simmons?

  Like they, they felt young and nervous in certain spots. And I think Indiana, there was a couple of moments, especially game four, when they really could have potentially tilted that series and they just kind of weren't good enough to do it. I wonder if OKC is gonna be better this year.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  I never thought OKC was gonna lose. The only time I thought they were gonna lose, when old boy switched up the starting lineup. And I was like, what the hell are you doing?

• 27:40Bill Simmons?

  Got rid of that, yeah.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  I was like, what are you doing? The only other person I saw do something that stupid was Avery Johnson. If you go back.

• 27:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh, in 07, yeah, yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, we would go, we went back, we were sitting there in the studio that night when it was like, what, what, what, what just happened right here? And we're like, we were sitting in the studio, like Avery Johnson changed up his starting lineup to go against Don Nelson, small ball. And like, why would you do that? You got to.

• 28:08Bill Simmons?

  He never won 67 games.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  You the number one seed and you change up. And when, when, when boy did that this year, I was like, what the hell? Then they have losing up, losing game one. And then they blew them out in game two, but it didn't matter because they got the split. Then they won game three. And he finally went back to his enormous, the lineup like, yo, man, you don't change up thing when you got the best team. You've been the best team in NBA all season. And I thought that was the only time I felt like, like, yo, man, don't do that again. You almost cost your team the championship. But I, I've said, I said midway past All-Star game, I started making predicting. I said, nobody can beat this Oklahoma City team four times in a row.

• 28:54Speaker 02

  They're too good, man. They're one of the deepest teams we've ever had in the NBA. They remind me a lot of the old Pistons back in the Isaiah Thomas days. Like, everybody talked about Isaiah and Joe Dumars, who were great, but Hartenstein is Lambert. And then coming off the bench, they had Sally, James Edwards, Benny Johnson, Mark Aguirre. I mean, they had like 10 players, like, and you can just plug them in. And it was amazing to watch them play. Uh, and they're gonna be tough. The only thing you got to worry about with them is, they gonna get everybody's best slap next year, and it's gonna be a shock to their system.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  They've been like the cool little kids for the last couple of years. They finally reached their potential, but now, when you hunt it, man, it's a different animal. It's a different animal.

• 29:51Bill Simmons?

  Sometimes the teams will go up a level defending. Like I remember the 92 Bulls were like that. After they got the first one, they were like ripping through the next year.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  They had Michael Jordan. I don't, listen.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  You know, all this stuff, you know, I love talking about players. And people always ask me the difference between Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and LeBron, because those are three best players I've seen in my generation. The two most important players ever are Matty Johnson and Larry Bird, because they made the NBA what it is today. But the three best players I've ever seen were. Michael, Kobe and LeBron. And I'll tell you the difference in the three. Kobe and LeBron, Kobe, excuse me, Michael and Kobe are dangerous. They'll kill your ass. LeBron's a nice guy. And I said, and that's not a knock.

• 30:45Speaker 02

  He's still great, great, great, but he's a nice guy. Michael and Kobe aren't nice guys. Like, they're different. Um, and that, the, the one thing about OKC, even though I think Shay is a great, great player, he to me is more like LeBron. He's a really nice guy. He not out there trying to kill you. That, and I think that's the difference. And, and, and Jalen, they got a bunch of really, really good players. And that's fine. But I always tell people, the difference between Michael and Kobe, man, they are dangerous. I mean, they really wanted to kill you and humiliate you. And, and that's not, like, I think Tom Brady's like that.

• 31:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. No, he is.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  But yeah, I like, and then I, I think there's very few players. I, I, out of all the great players I've ever met in my life, I think Michael and Kobe, Tom Brady, Roger Clemens.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  Like, I think they, I think they want, who?

• 31:50Bill Simmons?

  Roger Clemens?

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:51Bill Simmons?

  Where'd that come from?

• 31:52Speaker 02

  He, he'll throw at your head in a minute.

• 31:55Bill Simmons?

  Right. You're talking about mean-spirited, great athletes.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Yes. Like, they gonna do whatever it takes to win. They ain't worried about who like them and they ain't worried about your feelings. And there's nothing wrong with that. And like, everybody's not built like that. I'm not even built like that. Like, I think I'm a pseudo-tough guy, like, I want to win, but like, I, I, like, I'm just not like those guys.

• 32:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're still the guy buying drinks for everybody on the plane.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 32:23Bill Simmons?

  MJ would have been playing cards.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  No, MJ, yeah, and MJ wouldn't have paid for other people's drinks, just probably his and whoever's he was playing cards with.

• 32:31Bill Simmons?

  What you just laid out, I think about a lot because the guy that all time guy that everybody says was like that was Bill Russell. Like, he just wanted to destroy people.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:41Bill Simmons?

  Every, everything he did was about trying to get in somebody's head, intimidate people like with Wilt. He made friends with Wilt to try to get closer to him, to make Wilt go less hard at them when they played. All he wanted to do was win and, and take care of business and then the games. The MJ stat that I love, I think it was like eight straight years. He never lost three straight games ever. He just wouldn't, he wouldn't accept it that like, there's nobody who's been wired like that. That's why he can sustain it.

• 33:07Speaker 02

  I've seen is Kobe, I saw a picture today as a matter of fact, I was scrolling. And they got a picture of Magic Johnson, he was talking about Magic, he's talking about Michael's the best he's ever seen as far as talent, work ethic and mental toughness. Michael has this look in his eyes, Bill.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  And I says, that's Michael Jordan right there. Like they had my, and, and nobody else notices this because Magic is dribbling the ball. Michael's guarding him, but they got Magic's quote. And the look in Michael's eyes, I was saying to myself, that's the guy. That's the guy right there.

• 33:48Bill Simmons?

  I remember the picture, he's kind of looking up and he looks like, like a serial killer.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Like a serial killer. Like a serial killer, that's a hundred percent. Uh, let me tell you this quick Olympic story. So John Thompson, who's one of the greatest men I've ever met in my life. So he, I get cut from the Olympic trials.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  And my coach Sonny Smill says, hey, I got a call from John Thompson. He wants to talk to you. And he says, come to my office at this certain time of his list. So he puts him on a speakerphone. He says, Sonny, I just want you to know. Bobby was an asshole. Charles deserved to make the Olympic team. He was the sucker best player there. Bobby didn't like Charles. He never told us why. Charles got down to the final twenty, but he was never, he was a sucker best player. He should have made the team, but Bobby just didn't like him. He was gonna be, he was the sucker best player there. And I said, Coach, I really appreciate the call. And I want to thank you for the kind words. And he said, he said, you know, I said, why did he not like me? He said, he

• 34:51Speaker 02

  never told us why, but he just didn't like you. And I said, fine. So he hangs up. And Sonny says to me, wow, I'm a little surprised. I says, what do you mean? He says, I thought you the best player in the country. I said, well, I'm fucking not. I said, Coach, I saw the greatest player I've ever seen in my life. We became friends. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. He's a little taller than me. He's about six, six. He's jet black. He cannot run everybody. He cannot jump everybody. And he is out here trying to go. And he, and I said, he said, what's his name? I said, his name is Michael Jordan.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  He says, and I think Michael's either a freshman or sophomore. He wasn't the, as a coach. And I'm used to playing against Melvin Turpin, Sam Bowie, Kenny Skywalker, Dominique Wilkins and those flowers at Georgia. I played against Hakeem in college. So I'm not playing against Sl- I played against Foslamajama.

• 35:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  As a freshman or sophomore, I can't remember which one it was. So I'm used to playing against like, real deal dudes. I mean, Florida had a guy named Run- Ronnie Williams and Vernon Delancey. They were awesome. And I'm like, I said, dude, this dude is some scary I've never seen, Coach. As he, like I say, he, he a little taller than me. He cannot run everybody. I says, and he got an attitude. He's out here. And man, that was the first time I played against Michael. And it was scary, Bill. Like I say, he was going, I seen Roy Williams talk about like, I had to tell Michael to stop going so hard every day, even in practice. I mean, he's wired. I'll give you another story. We're, so we're playing in the Terminator Americas in Portland, Oregon.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  We playing Puerto Rico. So me, David Roberts and Chuck Bailey. And David Roberts go play eighteen holes that morning. So we're done. We said Chuck, so let's go get some rest. We got a game tonight. Mike said, I'm gonna play eighteen more. Chuck says, we got a game tonight. He says, I'm gonna play eighteen more. So we leave, he goes play eighteen. We went back and got some rest. We get to the game. And Michael, we all getting dressed and Davis, he's like, David, you got this dude. Charles, you got this dude. Irvin, you got this dude. Michael looks up and says, I got him.

• 37:22Speaker 02

  And Chuck says, he's the point guard. Michael says, I got him. Chuck says, okay, Bill. We start the game. Michael screaming at this little kid from Puerto Rico. Don't you ever fucking say anything about me in the newspaper. He's guarding this dude like it's game seven. This after thirty-six holes, Bill. He's screaming at this little kid and we're looking around like, yo, man, there's something wrong with this dude. He's screaming at this kid from Puerto Rico. Don't you ever say anything about me. I read what you said in the newspaper. He's doing that little drill, that little drill where you turn people, which most people, they're fast enough, you can't turn them. He's guarding this dude like it's game seven.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  And he's screaming at this kid. That was the first time I realized he didn't have a full deck. So then, we're, we're in the Olympics and we're playing Croatia.

• 38:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  They got Toni Kukoc, who's averaging like forty points a game. Him and Scotty and Michael says, Chuck, we're gonna take turns guarding Scott, uh, Toni Kukoc.

• 38:33Speaker 02

  We're not gonna let him score. Guys have forty points a game. You know, one thing about those international teams, they run the same play for the same guy.

• 38:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 38:44Speaker 02

  It was one of, it's the best defensive performance I've ever seen. These dudes are talking in timeouts. They're screaming at us, get, let us get over the pick. Just head for a second. We're going under on this one. Like, did the Gardeners do, they're like, we're not gonna let him score. I think he finished like some seven for thirty, something like that. It was some of the best. That's why I said, Michael is wired different. Uh, he, it was beautiful and amazing. Those are the two most interesting things that I've ever seen him do, man. He, he just wired differently.

• 39:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's why the Pippen stuff was sad after the last dance, that, uh, that relationship went sideways, cuz as great as Jordan was, I always felt like those guys together were its own kinda awesome thing. And, I don't know, I, I always felt like Jordan appreciated, and then Pippen feels like he seems like he's underappreciated.

• 39:41Speaker 02

  It is really sad. You know, first of all, I have never won a championship, but if you won six championships, that's pretty damn special.

• 39:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's, you should be bonded by that.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  But jealousy is a dangerous thing, man.

• 39:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Jealousy, jealousy is a dangerous thing, and it's really unfortunate.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  Michael Jordan made us all a lot of money.

• 40:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  He did us all a lot of money. Uh, NBA wise, shoe apparel wise, clothing deals, commercials. See, Bill, that's the thing a lot of people don't understand. Athletes were not making commercials until Michael Jordan. Nobody had a shoe deal. You saw with that movie, Air, nobody was getting a percentage of shoes until Michael Jordan.

• 40:28Bill Simmons?

  He's made. Remember that Converse?

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's made, uh, they weren't making no percentage of shoes back then. They were getting a little money, him and Magic, but they wasn't making any money.

• 40:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Michael's mom said, hey, we gonna get a percentage of shoes. Michael said, no, we don't do that. He says, oh, well, we gonna do it now. I started getting paid because of Magic Michael Jordan. But I can say nobody was making money for shoes. Nobody was shooting. Now seeing Jax in commercials like saying hello. So shout out to Michael Jordan for making us all a lot of money, brother.

• 41:00Bill Simmons?

  You know, speaking of commercials, LeBron did that Forever King commercial. Did you see it? That Nike thing?

• 41:06Speaker 02

  I can't.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  I, I probably saw it, but didn't pay it that much attention.

• 41:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it was like this, uh, I don't know, 45 second commercial about all the people he's vanquished and it's like just close up shots of him with a crown on. I, I think he's, I don't really understand what his MO is. And if you talk about it, it's like, well, you're being critical and it's like, I, this guy's one of the best players of all time and it seems like.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  That's the only thing I hate about LeBron. First of all, he's a great, great player. He's an amazing person, really nice guy. But for him and his guys, if you don't say he's the greatest ever, it's like you could commit treason.

• 41:46Bill Simmons?

  Right. You're either for them or against them. It's like, can I just say you're one of the greatest players of all time?

• 41:51Speaker 02

  No, you cannot. You cannot. If you do not say he's the greatest of all time, you're committing treason. Man, you can't even mention Michael, Kobe, Bill Russell. Man, that's a faction of Kareem people. I actually feel like Kareem's the one guy who get left out.

• 42:07Bill Simmons?

  Hundred percent agree.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, cause nobody has a better career, high school, college and pros than Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

• 42:14Bill Simmons?

  Plus he's in the four years at, at UCLA that he didn't, he could have been in the NBA, just putting up stats and he would have been one of the best guys.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  And, and, and you know, so, but that's the only thing I don't like about LeBron and his guys. They're like, if you don't say he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, they hate you. And it's really sad and it pisses me off when it happens too. But yo, man, it's just people's opinion. Cause first of all, most of these young punks today in the public, they never saw Michael Jordan play.

• 42:45Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  They never, uh, most of them also never saw Kobe play. They definitely didn't see Kareem or Bill Russell play. But for some reason, this generation, oh, you're being blasphemous saying LeBron. And listen, I got number love and respect for LeBron because I said this before. He's probably had the best career ever for high.

• 43:10Bill Simmons?

  Him or Kareem.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  No, I'm talking about his four his high school players. Because if you remember some, Bill, Kobe struggled in the beginning.

• 43:19Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Kevin Garnett struggled in the beginning. All those high school players struggle a lot. Remember they booed Kobe early in his career. But I can say this. LeBron James is the only player in my forty years in the NBA who came right out of high school and played well. I had his first game. I had his first game. LeBron James in my forty years. Like Kobe became great, Kevin Garnett became great, McGrady, all these guys. But I can honestly say LeBron James is the only one who came out of high school who played well right away.

• 43:58Bill Simmons?

  I think he's in a weird spot with this Luca situation because from the moment.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  It's time to move on, brother.

• 44:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, but I don't think he feels like it's starting to move on like when they did the press conference.

• 44:07Speaker 02

  Kareem, Bill, see, this is the problem.

• 44:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  Kareem did it with Magic. Tim Duncan did it with Tony Parker, Ginobili and Kawhi.

• 44:16Bill Simmons?

  He doesn't, he doesn't want to do it, though.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  You have to, Bill.

• 44:20Bill Simmons?

  I listen, I agree with you. I'm just telling you what I'm watching, like when they put the statement out and they said like, we gotta be more committed to winning a title. It's like you've Luke on your team.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Like we're not like they're not trying.

• 44:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  They went out and got Luka Doncic, they're not trying. Hey, man, I, I don't like when guys. Every, the, the baton has to be passed from everybody. It's passed from everybody. The Lakers haven't been relevant. Was it, the, the bubble was the last time they've been relevant.

• 44:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  I hear people talking about LeBron putting up good stats. But the Lakers have not been relevant since the bubble. Now, are they relevant? Bring in Luca helps, but I'm not gonna pick them. They lost to the Timberwolves last year. Who were, they're not relevant with OKC. The Nuggets or the Rockets, in my opinion. I'm not gonna pick the T-Wolves or the Lakers over those top three teams.

• 45:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, you saw it from the course of your career. Like, the league is about young guys and then guys in their prime, and then older guys trying to hang on.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, but

• 45:30Bill Simmons?

  Once you hit that, once you're in that last group, it's so much tougher to go 100 games.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's easier. It shouldn't make it easier. Kareem, like, okay, I bet Kareem won.

• 45:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you can't count Kareem, though. Kareem, I mean Kareem had the most unstoppable shot in the league.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  I know that, but would you say Magic were responsible for the last, him and James, were they part of responsible for the last two championships? And for Tim Duncan, who's the greatest power forward ever?

• 45:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  I think Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, I'm not Duncan, Duncan, uh, excuse me, Parker, Ginobili, and Kawhi Leonard are part of responsible for the last two championships. There's nothing wrong, he still get the championship ring. If the Lakers win the championship and Luka wins the MVP, don't LeBron get a championship ring? Come on, man, stop it, Bill.

• 46:20Bill Simmons?

  I'm on your side, I agree with you. I don't know what he sees, like, because the move would be, I've got the, I lucked out. I have one of the best four guys in the league on my team again. How do I fit in at the age I'm at to add him? I know. So, but I don't know if he wants it, because it seems like if he could have forced a trade over the summer, he probably would have. I would look at it as like, this is an amazing situation. You can pick your spots, you could probably play 55 games during the season. Luka will do all the work and then turn it on in the playoffs for, for 10 weeks. And you win, you win if you make the finals, you win if the team succeeds. It's like Ernie Johnson, Ernie wins when your show's good. It's not, Ernie's not like, I gotta get my takes off today.

• 47:05Bill Simmons?

  Ernie's like, I have these three guys, I have to make them better. I win if the show's good. That's how LeBron has to think.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  You know what's interesting about you saying that? I hate these guys so much who whine about that, Bill. As a guy.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  Who was dying for better players around me?

• 47:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  When you see these things where guys can't play together, you say to yourself, like Kyrie didn't want to play with LeBron. I'm like, why not?

• 47:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  Kobe didn't want to play with Kobe and Shaq. I'm like, what do you mean y'all don't want to play together?

• 47:43Speaker 03

  That got, that got personal though.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  That went to another level.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  That's my point. These guys drive me crazy. Like I'm down to play with other great players. And like, who want to come to Philly and play with me? Who want to come to Phoenix and play with me? Like when I hear these guys, like I want to be the guy. Like I want to be the guy too on a winning team. I don't have to be, I don't have to be the guy, especially when I'm not the same player. When I hear this stupidity, like Kobe and Shaq probably should have won three more championships. If Shaq had have said, hey, you know what Kobe?

• 48:25Speaker 02

  You're responsible for the last championship probably. I probably can win a couple more if I just shut the hell up and play.

• 48:33Speaker 03

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• 48:59Speaker 04

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• 49:10Speaker 05

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• 49:31Speaker 04

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• 49:57Speaker 05

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 50:03Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you, so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now, that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. And now it's time for a special part of today's episode, brought to you by YouTube. One of my favorite places. Mark your calendars, NFL fans. Kansas City, the Los Angeles Chargers, they're facing off in San Paolo on Friday, September 5th. For the first time ever, YouTube streaming it free for absolutely everyone. It's 100% free. Carol G will be the halftime performer. Can't miss the game, obviously.

• 50:48Bill Simmons?

  It's my homes. It's AFC West. It's a classic. Coverage starts at 7:00 PM ET on September 5th for the 8:00 PM ET kickoff. Is there a better way to spend your Friday night? I can't think of one.

• 51:03Bill Simmons?

  I like the Chiefs. As you've heard from my podcasts, I'm just feeling like an off year for the Chargers. And the Chiefs laying the smackdown, trying to remind everybody that they're here, the neutral field thing. I'm just, we'll talk about it on Thursday's podcast, but I am in on the Chiefs in this game. And you could be in, you could be one of the 100%. Of the people watching this game live for free on YouTube on September 5th. Carol G performing at halftime. Watch it live only on YouTube. Certain local broadcasts available. Head to youtube.com/nfl on Friday, September 5th at 7pm ET. 8pm ET kickoff. Chiefs Chargers. You might have heard of both of those teams.

• 51:45Bill Simmons?

  Game available via YouTube globally, except in Canada and certain other countries. Game will also be available on free over the air broadcast television, local markets of the participating clubs. And this is why I defend Duncan so much. And Duncan now is the years pass and people can just look up his stats and I'm like, oh, this guy's better than this guy. Like Duncan could have averaged, I don't know, five, six more points a game. He could have had better everything if he wanted to, but he was all about like, we're winning 70% of our games. I'll come in and out when they need me and when they really need me, guess what? I'm the best power forward of all time and I'll be there. But he was very generous with, you know, all he cared about was how the team was doing and he was inclusive and how to raise guys' levels.

• 52:29Bill Simmons?

  And I don't know why we don't treasure that as a basketball fan community.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  You guys.

• 52:34Bill Simmons?

  I'm not a you guys in this. I'm on your side on this.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  You guys in the media, not you, but tickle jackasses on television. It's like, whose team is it? And things like that. And that's like, I'm sitting back watching. I'm like, yo, man. Like, let's say hypothetically, is it Dr. J's championship or Moses championship?

• 52:55Bill Simmons?

  It doesn't matter.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  It doesn't matter. That's why, that goes back to my original point. Man, I'm, I would have loved to win a championship with another guy beside me. That's what drives me crazy about these fools on television. They go on TV every day. Like I was, you know, out this, this weekend. This weekend, I was saying to myself, oh shit. I would hate to be Arch Manning and Bill Belichick this week. Because I know how the losers on television are gonna react. I know how stupid the public is. They don't even understand. But I was saying to myself, man, I'd hate to be Arch Manning Monday.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  And I'd hate to be Bill Belichick Tuesday. Because I know how these fools on television are. I knew they were gonna crush Arch Manning. And I knew was, I knew they were gonna crush Bill Belichick. And I sent Bill a text Monday. I says, hey, man. Because you know, me and Bill are close. I said, I just want you to know.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  I know it's a lot of people hoping you fail. But I always want you to know, you're my guy. And I'm rooting for you. Have a great season.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  But as I knew. This morning.

• 54:26Speaker 02

  They were gonna crush him. That, that, that's the way this business is now. It's unfortunate. And like I say, I knew Arch Manning's played one football game of significance. He's an eighteen, nineteen year old kid. He goes against a hell of a team against Ohio State.

• 54:48Bill Simmons?

  Right. He's on the, he's on the road. It's his first big start. Huge spotlight.

• 54:52Speaker 02

  I said, man, these guys, these fools on TV gonna kill him Tuesday. Excuse me, kill him Sunday and Monday. But that's the environment we're in now, Bill. And it's really unfortunate. I mean, it's really unfortunate. Because that's the way you get recognized and make money now. And that's, and that's sad.

• 55:15Bill Simmons?

  I thought, I thought it really hurt the NBA the last couple of years. And you know, you, you guys took some, some bullets on it too, from talking about old generation versus new generation. You guys were too negative about the current game. Um, but I, I, I actually was more on your side with some of that stuff. The stuff I don't like is when we're, you know, and there's people that do it that I actually like, like you and I both like Stephen A. But when he was on the, when he was on the NBA countdown show and every halftime is about this guy's gotta step up because they're losing because of him. Where is he? And I, I just, I don't know. It's just not for me.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  I, I think what we're losing, number one, you have a great point, but this, we got so many great players in the NBA, but these fools spend all their time comparing like Michael Jordan's dead. Okay. Michael Jordan's dead. He's been retired forever.

• 56:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Over 20 years.

• 56:12Speaker 02

  These fools spend all their time comparing him to LeBron. I'm like, why? Michael Jordan's been dead for 20 some years. Let, let him, let him, let, let's, let's let LeBron be LeBron. We're starting to do the stupid shit in golf now. Man, Scottie Scheffler is just as good as Tiger. I'm like, damn, y'all just see him ruin the NBA. We can't appreciate LeBron's greatness or Steph Curry's greatness. We got to compare him to a guy's been dead for 20 years. I'm like, why can't, Michael Jordan is great, but so is LeBron, so is Kobe, so is Steph, so is Joker. Why do y'all have to get on TV?

• 56:57Speaker 02

  First cause it's, they got no talent. They got no talent, Bill, because they know people gonna go on the internet and argue with them or go, go on the internet on these radio shows and argue with them. That's why they do it. Now I see these fools doing it in golf. Scottie Scheffler, he's great. I love Scottie Scheffler. He's as good as Tiger. I'm like, well, I'm sitting here like.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  Scottie Scheffler is 29 and he's won four majors. Tiger won four majors at 24.

• 57:31Bill Simmons?

  After winning three amateurs in a row before he even turned pro.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  I'm not sure and Tiger's won 30 times by then. And Scott is won 17 times. He's 29. Why can't we just appreciate his greatness? Why y'all have to be lazy? And just bring that up. Tigers is a once in a generation type player. Scottie, if he keeps rolling, he's the best in this generation.

• 58:00Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  But these guys, they need hot takes on television and radio. Cause they need fools to click on them on the internet or call into their radio shows. It drives me crazy. I says, Michael's the best I've ever seen. I love him and respect him. The next I've seen is Kobe. Now, the last 20 years been Steph and LeBron. I don't have to compare them. I can appreciate their greatness. Scottie is the best we got going today. I don't have to compare him to Tiger or Jack or Arnie or Gary Player. But these guys have become lazy. Cause they know people gonna get on their computer and come after them. Or a lot of them have radio shows.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  I have friends in Philadelphia where I lived during the summer. I played golf with them in the morning.

• 58:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  And I said, what are you gonna talk about today? They're like, we gonna talk about Kobe, Michael, Kobe, LeBron? Guys like that. I'm like, why are you doing that?

• 59:02Bill Simmons?

  Is Jalen Hurts good enough even though he already won a Super Bowl?

• 59:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  Can you win two Super Bowls with Jalen Hurts? That's our topic today.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they tell me the truth. They're like, Charles, you don't understand how the media works. I said, this is, this is in the eighties and nineties, Bill. And they said, this is how the media works. We gotta get fools to call in and argue with us for four hours. We don't believe half the shit that we say. I said, what? He says, I'm on radio for four hours.

• 59:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  If I say Michael's the best, half the people gonna call in and say he was. The other half gonna call in and talk about Lebron, LeBron, he's the greatest. But then, some sprinklers gonna come in, talk about Bill and Will. He says, that's what our job is in the media. We on radio for four hours. And then, I was like, wow, that's interesting. And these are some of my great friends who have some of the most popular shows in Philadelphia in the eighties and nineties. They're like, our job is just to get people and call in and argue for four hours. It taught me a lot about the media. Now, the difference is now is, they're all on TV making millions of dollars.

• 1:00:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:23Speaker 02

  And it's, and, and I, that was one of the reasons I was hesitant to do the ESPN deal, to be honest with you.

• 1:00:30Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna ask you about that.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Cause I don't wanna do that. Like, I wanna go on TV. One of the reasons I love doing your podcast, I got, and I'm not saying it's gonna be a podcast, I don't do many podcasts. Uh, I like you, and I know you gonna be honest and a straight shooter, that even if I disagree.

• 1:00:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  I know, one of the reasons I hated Skip Bayless, like, yo man, people, you can disagree with people. But people believe, television is so powerful. People believe what we say. They do. And I don't mind agreeing or disagreeing with people. But I ain't gonna say shit just to get people to call in and argue with me. That's one of the reasons I like you. I I know you're like, I'm gonna try to do my job to the best of my abilities. I don't care who clicks on to me. I ain't trying to get people to like me or dislike me. That's the reason I first I developed a hatred for Skip Bayless.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Like, yo, man, you can't like, people believe what we say.

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  Right. Like, I had one of these, I had one of these a couple of weeks ago. Cause I I genuinely think Josh Allen was the best QB in the league last year, even though the results didn't happen.

• 1:01:49Speaker 02

  He was.

• 1:01:49Bill Simmons?

  And I was saying like, so trying to figure out who's the quarterback hierarchy heading into this year. And I'm like, I just think Josh is the best QB. I know Mahomes has the resume. I don't think he was that good last year for by his standards. And I can't put him first based on what he did three years ago.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  So I, so I got friends who work at ESPN.

• 1:02:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  And there's a racial component of it, too.

• 1:02:11Bill Simmons?

  Right, well.

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  And I.

• 1:02:12Bill Simmons?

  The Jokic and B thing was brutal. That was, that was the worst.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  I says, they asked me my opinion. I said, I think Josh Allen's MVP.

• 1:02:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  They're like, but what about Lamar? So Lamar had a great year. He's amazing. I love Lamar. I said, but your question is, who had the best year? I says, who's Derrick? Who's Josh Allen got in the backfield? Now, the Cook kid is a good player. He's not Derrick Henry.

• 1:02:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  He's not Derrick.

• 1:02:41Bill Simmons?

  Which coaching staff would you rather have? Which infrastructure?

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Who are Josh Allen wide receivers? I think the best one was.

• 1:02:50Bill Simmons?

  Was Shakir.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  Shakir.

• 1:02:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  And then the kid who, the Coleman kid, who's a rookie. Then you got the kid who comes to games who, who's naked. And I says, I says, Josh do not have, and they had a better record. And they beat them head to head. I said, so if he's got Derrick Henry, the best running back in the league. He's got better wide receivers. But Josh Allen, they thought the Bills were gonna take a step back, but they cut everybody after last year.

• 1:03:23Bill Simmons?

  I picked them to miss the playoffs last year. They lost so many guys that even seem conceivable.

• 1:03:27Speaker 02

  Than the Ravens.

• 1:03:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Why was he not the MVP?

• 1:03:31Bill Simmons?

  This was the NBA, we'd be going, Josh Allen needs more help. And Josh Allen's agents would be leaking stuff. They gotta make a move. They need a star receiver.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  And that's another thing I hate about the move. Uh, to be honest with you.

• 1:03:45Bill Simmons?

  ESPN move.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Yes. These guys get on TV every day and says, are they wasting Yanis' career?

• 1:03:55Bill Simmons?

  Yanis won a title already.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  I, I know, but I'm saying they're wasting the Joker's career. And I'm saying.

• 1:04:02Bill Simmons?

  He won a title.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  They gotta get LeBron some help.

• 1:04:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  And I'm saying, well, wait a minute. I don't remember y'all saying that shit about me and Patrick Ewing. Y'all never got on TV and said, we're wasting Charles' career in Philadelphia.

• 1:04:20Bill Simmons?

  I was saying it, but I was in a bar in Boston. I didn't have a microphone.

• 1:04:24Speaker 02

  It drives me crazy because that's this thing now. If you don't win every year, they want you to move. They're like, uh, Yanis gotta move. They're wasting him. I'm like, wait a minute. I was in Philly. I had no help. Patrick Ewing was in New York. He had no help. I don't remember y'all getting on TV saying, help Patrick, help Charles. But on TV now. Oh, should, should Yanis want to leave Milwaukee? Should the Joker want to leave Denver? I'm like, damn, what, what happened? Well, y'all have this new dynamic. Like, damn, I want to help in Philly.

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  I, y'all didn't never say Charles needed help. And it, but now every star like, he's got to get out of there.

• 1:05:17Bill Simmons?

  I know, but think about Dirk Nowitzki in 2011 is the best example of this where they, they, we could have done this whole cycle with him for four years after they lose that Warriors and he stays. And he ends up winning there. And that's like the best title anyone won in the last 15 years.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  And, and, uh, that's like two titles.

• 1:05:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Speaker 02

  But there's this, there's this new thing now, Bill. When they see a great player, especially if he's in a small market, they're like, he's got to get out of there. He needs to move. I'm like, damn, where were y'all when I was in Philly?

• 1:05:46Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  When I was going out there with Sheldon Jones, no disrespect. When I was going out there with my new bull and Sheldon Jones, I remember y'all saying, hey, we got to get Charles some help in Philly.

• 1:05:56Bill Simmons?

  Some of it's the people around the players too. It's the agents, it's the handlers. They'll have a trainer now and they're just kind of constantly, you should be bigger. You should be, you'd be a bigger star in a bigger market. You gotta get more money. You're better than this guy. You're better than your teammate. And then you start planting the seeds and you go. You mentioned the ESPN thing. I talked on a pod a couple of months ago and I feel like I have a pretty unique perspective because I did the NBA show there and I saw how they do shows and how, how they prioritize the pregame, the halftime, the commercial breaks, giving people time to speak. And the reason you guys had the best studio show of all time, other than the talent, was that you had these producers that actually let it breathe, that gave you like eight, nine minutes at halftime

• 1:06:40Bill Simmons?

  in a row to have a conversation. Do you feel like you're going to be able to do that at ESPN and what happens if you can't?

• 1:06:48Speaker 02

  Well, number one, thank you for the compliment. We don't know.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  This has been one of the worst. TNT just sucks, to be honest with you, Bill. They made this deal.

• 1:07:03Speaker 02

  They haven't told us when we're gonna work.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  They haven't told us how it's gonna work. Cause we've been talking behind the scenes like, do we have to, after the game, are we gonna get any time or are they gonna say, hey, you guys gotta go to SportsCenter?

• 1:07:17Bill Simmons?

  They, well, listen, they've always gone right to SportsCenter. That's always how it's worked.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  And I've asked that question. Like, you're right. That's the best part of our show. After the game, we can like have conversation and have fun. Are they gonna say you guys got three minutes, five minutes, 15, 20, 30, 45? But like, are we going to go straight to SportsCenter? They haven't given us an answer whatsoever.

• 1:07:45Speaker 02

  And TNT, I think they sold the show and they haven't been noncommunicable at all.

• 1:07:49Bill Simmons?

  What do they care? They got paid.

• 1:07:50Speaker 02

  They got paid.

• 1:07:51Bill Simmons?

  Cause I, cause the thing is with these shows, you can do the pregame show forever and it's fun, but it's basically like a podcast. You're guessing what's gonna happen.

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:59Bill Simmons?

  The postgame is the secret sauce because you just watched the game. You're reacting to it.

• 1:08:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:08:04Bill Simmons?

  And that was when I did it, I would get mad because they didn't give a shit about hearing from us after the game. And it's like, well, we shouldn't be here then. Why are we on location?

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Just.

• 1:08:12Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna do a four minute segment with us.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  Just setting up the game is the easy part. Now you can tell why a team won and a team lost. Who played good, who played bad. Right. That's, that is the secret sauce. They have not said anything to us about, hey, are we gonna be able to do that after the game? And like I say, TNT didn't care. They just took, like, they think we morons. If they think we don't think they got paid something, I mean, come on, we're not.

• 1:08:39Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. Also, they, they have a rule with the finals about on ABC, you have to get the fuck out of there and throw it to local news, like with a certain, so you're gonna have to switch channels to watch you guys, which ain't nothing either.

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  I want to tell you something, what you just said, but to me, it's gonna be one of the biggest issues.

• 1:08:59Speaker 02

  I've been telling my friends, they're like, what do you think? I says, well, number one, we're concerned about the whole ESPN thing as far as do we have to go to sports. And I said, but I think the NBA's got a big problem. I says, they're gonna, how are they gonna tell people what night the games are on? I says, the games have been on 40 years. They've been on ESPN on Tues, excuse me, on ESPN, on TNT on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

• 1:09:28Bill Simmons?

  Right. And ESPN Wednesday, Friday, then Saturday night, then Sunday.

• 1:09:32Speaker 02

  But Saturday is gone because of Amazon. So when I met with NBC, they said, we're gonna do games on Monday and Tuesday. And then when the NFL ends, we're gonna do Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. I think ESPN is gonna do Wednesday and Friday. And I think Amazon is gonna do Thursday and Saturday.

• 1:09:59Speaker 02

  But my thing is, how are regular fans gonna like, okay, it's Tuesday? Especially when they start putting games on.

• 1:10:09Bill Simmons?

  Where do I go?

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  Well, well, like, cause you know, sometimes the game's gonna be on Peacock. And like it's not gonna be on NBC. I think that's a huge dilemma for the NBA.

• 1:10:21Bill Simmons?

  Guess what? They don't care.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  I agree.

• 1:10:23Bill Simmons?

  They got, they got so much money. They're, they're gonna wipe their tears with cash.

• 1:10:28Speaker 02

  Bill, I'm so glad you said that. I, I think, I think it's a big deal because they, they just took all the money from all three networks. I don't think they give a shit about the fans. And I, I think, I think this is gonna come back to bite them, to be honest with you.

• 1:10:47Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a three, one series lead, but what if you went to Cancun with Expedia? Save up to 30%. When you bundle and save, you can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen.

• 1:11:29Bill Simmons?

  No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. Well, if you talk to anybody from the NBA, as I know you have, how many years have they been complaining about how ESPN covers the league? I mean, at least 10, right? 10, 12, 15. Like, I hate the, we hate the discourse. We hate that they do that. And it's like, you just took their money again. You can't say anything. You took their money one more time. So now, now that's a moot point.

• 1:12:00Speaker 02

  But yeah, but they took the money, but also to take the money from NBC and Amazon is like, yeah, we just gonna take the money. And then the thing that's scary, this deal is for 11 years.

• 1:12:09Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  So now.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  People complain all they want to for the next 11 years. They don't give a shit about the fans. They're like, y'all, if y'all find the games fine, just make sure the check clears.

• 1:12:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think Amazon's gonna do a really good job because I, I think they've done a good job with football and I think they, I, I think their attitude toward how they're gonna cover it. And how much attention, like, they're gonna be fine. NBC is gonna do it like they did NFL.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  I think they can all be fine. They just got to figure out how the regular fan are gonna find it.

• 1:12:42Bill Simmons?

  Right. Because that's a frustrating thing with NFL where you're like, what's, oh, it's, wait a second, this game's on, it's Black Friday on Amazon. You're, you're floating around. Yeah.

• 1:12:52Speaker 02

  Okay, like, okay. We know that ESPN got the games on Wednesday and Friday. That's pretty stable, but, okay.

• 1:12:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 02

  It's, are the games on NBC or they on Peacock? And again, what two nights is Amazon? Are they, okay.

• 1:13:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Speaker 02

  They took TNT's nights. Do they get TNT Tuesday?

• 1:13:15Bill Simmons?

  But I have league pass two.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  Well, wait a minute. So TNT, Amazon, you get TNT Thursday, but you don't get there Tuesday. That goes to NBC.

• 1:13:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Like, I know people think that's simple, but you should always try to make it simple for the fans.

• 1:13:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then for you, it's gonna be like, where do you get you guys? Because that's the other piece people are gonna care about. And then on top of it, you're gonna be at ESPN. I'm sure there's gonna be some back and forth with different people on the shows. You're not gonna put up with it because you're old, you don't care. You're just gonna go right back at everybody.

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  Like, I don't, I, I want, I think, listen. It's gonna be an honor and a privilege to work for ESPN because they're the greatest sports network ever.

• 1:13:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 02

  I just, I, I just hope that we get to do what we do, man.

• 1:14:04Bill Simmons?

  Me too.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  Like, see, you want a few people who understand. The question, the points that I'm asking like, wait, we gotta go to local news or we gotta go to SportsCenter? Or we gotta do both?

• 1:14:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, how do I, the game just ended. How do I find you guys? Oh, I have to flip channels?

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:23Bill Simmons?

  Now, wait, they're in commercial. Am I on the right channel?

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, you want a few people who actually understand that. Like, okay, we gotta go to local news. Like, we've never fucking had to go to local news before. You know, we never had to go to SportsCenter and

• 1:14:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but, but most of the people that produce these shows have never been on the shows. And when you've been on it, you, you understand the rhythm a bit differently. For whatever reason, Tim Kylie, your guy forever, he fundamentally understood how to make you guys succeed and that you guys needed time and you needed to breathe. And that was what made it special. Most people don't, they don't see it that way. They don't understand it.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  Now I'm hoping that we get to breathe.

• 1:15:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're gonna have like, trust me, I, I did him a couple of years. You're gonna have like a two and a half minute halftime show on location at the finals. Like, he really, wait, I just started my point. We're going to commercial again. What happened?

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  You know, and I, and I've been able to scream at TNT people. I've done it live on air. I'm not done with my point. Hold that damn commercial and I want to make my point because it was an important point. Uh, but like I say, man, I, I, I don't know, but I'm concerned. I'll be, I, I ain't never gonna get on your show or any show online. Like, I am concerned about going forward.

• 1:15:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, I will say we've said goodbye to Inside the NBA. It feels like for three straight years and you guys are still on. You guys are like boxers that keep retiring. It's like when Ali retired over and over again in the seventies and then he would fight again.

• 1:15:50Speaker 02

  You know, this was, you know, I, I really grew to hate the people I work for, to be honest with you, Bill.

• 1:15:59Bill Simmons?

  I could tell.

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  No, because, Bill, that's the way you treat people.

• 1:16:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  We should not learn that we got fired or whatever from the internet. Ernie Johnson deserves better. Literally, this is a true story. We were playing golf in the playoffs. I was playing with my boy Alex and Underdog and Mike. We're literally in between shots, looking at the internet. One article comes out, TNT lost the package. But I guess we lost the package. Another article come out. We kept the package.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  Another article come out, we lost the package, nothing come. We're literally playing golf and in between shots.

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  We're reading the internet.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  And, and then, nothing happens, nobody says anything. And I'm literally sitting at a house on a Friday night. I get a text from Van Pelt, Bob Myers, L Duncan and Brian Windhorst. Welcome me to the family. This is a Friday night. Nobody's told us anything. I get this text from four ESPN people, welcome me to the family. About two hours later, I get a call from TNT. Hey, this story broke, no shit.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  With the shows going to ESPN. And I'm like, well, y'all had to negotiate something before it broke. How about a heads up?

• 1:17:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, I also didn't understand how they negotiated without knowing if you were going to be on the show.

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Uh, that's my point. That's my point, Bill. And I'm sitting here like, oh, welcome to the family. It was a Friday night. And I'm saying, wait, welcome to what family? Then I said, I got the call from TNT like two hours later saying, hey, unfortunately, the story broke. Like, the story broke because y'all got a damn deal. How about if y'all signed a deal, call us four immediately? And saying, hey, God, we got a deal to trade y'all show to ESPN. And that's one of the reasons I developed animosity toward them. Like, yo, just tell us. Because if he had called us and said, you know what, guys, this is a bad deal.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  They, they want us to go from one point to the two point five being a year for 11 years. We can't afford that. That's all TNT had to say, Bill. And we would have said, we understand. That's not a great deal. But for us to hear from the internet and ESPN people that we lost the package, that's just unprofessional. And I, I get mad for Ernie because Ernie's the godfather. Ernie Johnson should never have to hear from other people that he lost his gig.

• 1:19:11Bill Simmons?

  Right, well, he was also telling everybody, I don't want another job. This is where I want to end my career. I have these crazy ties with TNT and TBS in Atlanta. And I don't want to do anything else.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  Well, that, so I'm with him on that. And I'll tell you the truth, Bill. The only reason me and Ernie decided to stay was the people at TNT got to kept their jobs. Because I got, so I met with Amazon.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  And I met with NBC. Got a offer for more money from NBC.

• 1:19:49Bill Simmons?

  I thought that's where you were gonna go.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  Well, I probably would have went there. They had a bunch of bullshit. They were talking about, not gonna lie. They offered me more money.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  But when they sent the contract to me, it had Kentucky Derby.

• 1:20:09Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  It had the US Open.

• 1:20:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Sam would elect you on both of those.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. It had five appearances on today.

• 1:20:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm still intrigued.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  Five appearances on Jimmy Fallon, the Olympics and 28 and 30. And I says, I guess y'all didn't hear the part where I wanted to, because I will tell you what's funny.

• 1:20:38Bill Simmons?

  I liked all those things. I thought they made a good case.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  Bill, I'm not gonna work more as I get older. I'm working less.

• 1:20:46Bill Simmons?

  I would have liked to have seen it.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  Because what was really ironic about the contract, when we first started talking, they says, I was gonna work two days a week, which I hadn't worked two days a week in 25 years.

• 1:21:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:02Speaker 02

  I says, you know what? Because I like the guys. Because the boss at NBC hired me at Turner. I got a lot of love for Mark Lazarus. I said, you know what? I can work Monday and Tuesday. I'm good with that. So I'm like, okay, send me a contract. Let me take a look at it. But then by the time I got the contract, they're like, well, watch football over. You're gonna work three days a week. That was my first red flag. And then when they put Kentucky Derby, US Open.

• 1:21:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  Uh, Olympics, 28 and 30. I says, hell no. And, uh, so then, um, the thing with Turner comes back.

• 1:21:47Speaker 02

  And they're like, guys, we can keep the show going.

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  And we get to keep everybody at Turner. I mean, Ernie were like, okay, that's best scenario.

• 1:22:03Speaker 02

  Because one of the things that intrigued me and Ernie about NBC, they told us we could bring all the people with us.

• 1:22:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Speaker 02

  Which was me and Ernie's only concern. Because when me and Ernie met with NBC, they're like, you guys can bring anybody you want to.

• 1:22:23Speaker 02

  And I was like, we can bring everybody behind the scene. They said, they would say, we'll film this show in Atlanta.

• 1:22:33Speaker 02

  And you can bring anybody you want to. So that got me and Ernie's attention.

• 1:22:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:38Speaker 02

  But then, the thing with ESPN came up. And we're like, well, we can keep, stay the same and bring everybody with us. Let's take that deal.

• 1:22:49Bill Simmons?

  All right. Well, it sounds like you're still conflicted about it.

• 1:22:53Speaker 02

  I'm not conflicted because 200 people gonna keep their job. They're like my family members.

• 1:22:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  And that's all I really cared about. Cause Bill, I, I will tell you something. This was a, a very difficult couple of years for me mentally.

• 1:23:09Speaker 02

  Because, you know, I'm in it, the sports world. My whole life, I ain't never been around a lot of real people. You know, all my NBA friends and TV friends, they got a lot of money. And I'm blessed. I'm not being a, a ungrateful person. I'm very blessed and thankful. But to be around my coworkers, TV people. Who were gonna lose their job. And to hear them talking about mortgage. Taking their kids out of private school that they never had to worry about. Cause we never under any circumstance thought that TNT was gonna lose the NBA.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  But it, it was becoming increasingly clear. And man, we just fired a, a gazillion people from NBA TV.

• 1:23:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Which was painful. Cause I know all those guys and people behind the scenes. But for the last, especially last year, but really the last couple of years. And it was like, we might lose the NBA. To be around people who I genuinely care about. To hear them talk about mortgage. To hear them talking about taking their kids out of private school and things like that. Time of downgrading where they live. Man, it was really painful for me. Because, you know, I'm in the NBA. I ain't ever had one of my friends talk about mortgage and. Say, I got to downgrade my kids schooling. Like, it was really painful for me as a person.

• 1:24:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, I mean, I think about the late night shows, right? As the, as the late night air is kind of ending, like Colbert shows ending out. 200 people work for that show. You know, Kim was deciding how long he wants to go. 200 people are hinging on the decision.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  And like, and they act like these people can just go get another job. I says, it doesn't work like that.

• 1:25:09Speaker 02

  I said, man, jobs, we, jobs just don't grow on trees, especially in our community.

• 1:25:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:16Speaker 02

  Because if we fire those 200 people in Atlanta, number one, 200 people aren't gonna have a job.

• 1:25:25Speaker 02

  A couple of like, they were talking about, well, if you go to Amazon, you gotta move to California. That's a whole different animal. And I'm not even sure what NBC decided to do their show at. So people act like, well, we can just go get another job. I'm like, it's not that simple. If even if Amazon want to hire you, how many people could just pick up and move to California? That's a different animal from a economic standpoint. Or same thing, if NBC moves everything to New York, that's a whole nother animal. So.

• 1:25:57Bill Simmons?

  You in California could have been a reality show that could have potentially funded some of this too.

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  I like.

• 1:26:03Bill Simmons?

  You living here, I think would have been absolutely fascinating.

• 1:26:07Speaker 02

  I would have never lived there.

• 1:26:09Bill Simmons?

  I think that should have been part of the deal. It's like Amazon, but you have to live here.

• 1:26:13Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:26:13Bill Simmons?

  To pick a neighborhood and you have to be an LA person.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  They would have to really give me a really good condo or house or something.

• 1:26:21Bill Simmons?

  Bel Air, you could play Bel Air with Doc.

• 1:26:23Speaker 02

  Somewhere right by the studio.

• 1:26:26Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  A nice condo, three bedroom. You can't have.

• 1:26:29Bill Simmons?

  I think they have those here.

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm a big believer, you can never have more than two people visiting at the same time. Any more than two people, you're crowded.

• 1:26:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that's interesting. No matter how big your house is?

• 1:26:40Speaker 02

  No, I'm not, I'm not big on guests.

• 1:26:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that is, that does get tough when you have kids and you have, well, you're, you're staying, aren't you staying at your kid's house right now?

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  I, I, I am. Uh, my daughter, my two grandkids, yes.

• 1:26:55Bill Simmons?

  All right. How old are the grandkids?

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  Uh, three and two. Uh, little Henry, he's three and little Charlie, she's two.

• 1:27:02Bill Simmons?

  So at some point, you got to break out the YouTube clips of you going coast to coast.

• 1:27:07Speaker 02

  You know,

• 1:27:08Bill Simmons?

  There's some good YouTube mixes with you.

• 1:27:10Speaker 02

  My life revolves around, uh, Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger. Um, that's pretty much it right now.

• 1:27:18Bill Simmons?

  Those are the kid shows, yeah.

• 1:27:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, Miss Rachel and Daniel Tiger, that's pretty much it. And the rest of these are wa- watching guard over the swimming pool.

• 1:27:28Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:28Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:27:30Bill Simmons?

  That's an important job, though.

• 1:27:31Speaker 02

  It's a very important job because you, you, man, they were so cute in the beginning. Now they won't sit still. Like it, they were so cute in the beginning. I just sit on your lap and you just kiss them like a man time.

• 1:27:43Bill Simmons?

  Once they can run, it's over.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  Oh, my God. Once they start walking and running all hair breaking, I need a nap every time I see them. I, right after that. I do. You need a nap. It, it is amazing how they go from, oh, you're so cute. But then once they learn to walk and run, they never sit still. It's crazy.

• 1:28:03Bill Simmons?

  So you have, to wrap up, you have Philadelphia beating who in the Super Bowl?

• 1:28:09Speaker 02

  You know, I'm hoping it's the Buffalo Bills. Uh, I'm, uh, I would like to see either Josh Allen or

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  I like Josh Allen a lot as a person. Uh, the Ravens, the Ravens, you know, I, you know, when you a great player, like Lamar and Josh are, you're on the shit list like me. Um, until you win the championship and it sucks because, you know, it's a team game, but when you're a great player, you get all the credit and you get all the blame.

• 1:28:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:51Speaker 02

  So I would like to see Josh or Lamar win the Super Bowl. Um,

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  I think Baltimore has a better team because their defense is better.

• 1:29:04Bill Simmons?

  Slightly better coaching staff. Buffalo has a better offensive line.

• 1:29:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they got that, you know, they revamped their defense last year.

• 1:29:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  So, but my Eagles, man, they're loaded. Their defense got to grow up.

• 1:29:19Speaker 02

  But Joshua Lamar.

• 1:29:22Bill Simmons?

  So, so I had Buffalo over Green Bay before the Parsons trade. One day before that was my pick. It almost seems too easy now. Now it's like, you know, that Parsons trade that was.

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  The, the love kid got to play better.

• 1:29:37Bill Simmons?

  True. He was hurt last year.

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  He was hurt. See, that's the thing that sucks about sports. He got hurt in the first game.

• 1:29:45Bill Simmons?

  And then had two more injuries.

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  But, but once you get hurt, you're like, and people think when you come back, you're healthy. When you come back, you're not healthy. It takes a while to get back and then he gets hurt again. But you know what? I give them credit. Hey, man, you know, we did it in Philadelphia the last couple of years.

• 1:30:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  That's why Howard is the best general manager. That goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Man, very seldom do you have a chance to win. Like, very, you give Howard like, I need a wide receiver. He went and got AJ. Then he like, we're not good enough. I need a running back. He goes out and gets Saquon. The Packers, like, man, when you have a chance to win, you gotta go for it.

• 1:30:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, but that was the frustration with Denver for me with, with what they did with Jokic the last two years where, you know.

• 1:30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:42Bill Simmons?

  They won the title and they're like, okay, we won a title. It's like, you have the best guy of this decade. Every year that this guy's on your team, you have to spend his most money, the most money you possibly can. Because this is like, this is fucking generational. This is a unicorn. And they didn't do it last year. They cheaped out, I thought.

• 1:31:00Speaker 02

  But see, the problem they got now, they're trying to play catch up. And I always, and I tell people this, you never catch up. It might be too late because.

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  Now they're not head and shoulders, the best starting five. You know?

• 1:31:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but but they got rid of their two best players off the bench when they won the championship.

• 1:31:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, some of that was financial.

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  I understand that. Dude, man, guys will give their right arm and leg to win the championship. Your team gonna be worth billions of freaking dollars. You're gonna haggle over 10, 20, 30 million dollars? Think about that, Bill. Your team, every NBA team is worth at least $2 billion.

• 1:31:49Bill Simmons?

  Oh, like four now. The ceiling's four. Portland got 4.25.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  So think about this. You had a chance to keep KCP and Bruce Brown. Probably cost you another 30, maybe 40 million. You're gonna, team gonna appreciate 300, 400 million dollars, especially if you win. You're probably gonna make that money up if you go deep in the playoffs. Man, if you got a chance to win, you better go for it. And they really wasted the Joker the last couple of years. But like I say, the problem they got now is they're not better than Oklahoma City.

• 1:32:27Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  And I'm not sure they're better than the Rockets.

• 1:32:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if Thompson goes up a level, Houston could be in the two spot. It's a bummer, because I, I don't know. I, I was there for Bird and Magic. You, you were too, in a different way. You played against them.

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  Magic, think about this. Hold on. Perfect example. Go back and look. This is what, when those guys had Bird. They bought in somebody every year.

• 1:32:53Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  What about the Lakers? They bought in somebody every year. You can never stand pat when you win. The Celtics, they bought in Walton one year.

• 1:33:05Bill Simmons?

  And then the Lakers bring in Michael Thompson the next year to respond.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  They bought in Bob McAdoo.

• 1:33:10Bill Simmons?

  Sam Perkins.

• 1:33:11Speaker 02

  Sam Perkins. Like, that's what made, that's what made the Lakers and the Celtics the two greatest NBA franchises ever. Hey, we're not trying to win one championship. We're not trying to win two championship. We're not trying to win three. That's what made the Celtics and the Lakers, the best franchises in NBA history.

• 1:33:32Bill Simmons?

  I think OKC might be wired that way. The way they think of this long-term, short-term at the same time about how to build something that's seven, eight years and not two.

• 1:33:40Speaker 02

  Oh, they're, they're gonna be the favorite. Well, actually, your Celtics would have been the favorite the next five years if they didn't get hurt.

• 1:33:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, well, at least in the East.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  Yes, in the East, but OKC because they only gotta pay those top three guys. And I'm gonna tell you something. Hardenstein and Caruso, they'll give a hometown discount.

• 1:34:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:08Speaker 02

  And then they got more young players and damn draft picks. Because I tell these guys, if I'm Hardenstein and Caruso, I'm not taking an extra $5 million to suck. Hey.

• 1:34:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was, that was the famous Julian Edelman story. When Jacksonville was trying to sign him and he, he basically took four million less to stay with. He's like, I'm playing with Tom Brady. I'm gonna factor that in.

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  If I'm gonna play with those top three guys in Oklahoma City, if I can get $5 million from a team, or I can get three and a half, if I get three and a half, I'm gonna make another million in endorsements because I'm on the best team in the NBA.

• 1:34:54Bill Simmons?

  And playoff money too, right? You get some of that too.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  I, I, I don't know Hardenstein and Caruso that well. They're really important to OKC. I guarantee you they'll take a hometown discount to stay because like I say, they're gonna be favorite easily.

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  Even if they don't win the championship, they're gonna be first or second the next five years easily.

• 1:35:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, that's the thing I never understood with Jokic. Like if in the old days, people are like, I get to play with Magic. I'm gonna, I, let me get to the Lakers to play with that guy. I don't understand why people didn't see Jokic like that. I can play with that guy. It's like the most fun guy in the league to play with. People felt that way about Duncan in the 2000s, right?

• 1:35:39Speaker 02

  Once, I stayed, once they started trading players, they weren't trying to bring guys on.

• 1:35:44Bill Simmons?

  Stink on them. Right. All right. This was a good catch up, Chuck.

• 1:35:49Speaker 02

  Hey, brother.

• 1:35:49Bill Simmons?

  I'm glad you're well. It's always great to see you. I, I'm rooting for you at this next stop. We'll see how it goes.

• 1:35:55Speaker 02

  Hey.

• 1:35:55Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna bet on Barkley all the time.

• 1:35:57Speaker 02

  I got a lot of love and respect for it, brother. Thanks for having me on.

• 1:36:01Bill Simmons?

  All right. Great to see you. Thanks, man. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to the one and only Charles Barkley. Don't forget about our new rewatchables, our 400th movie that we, uh, that we've done. We did American Gangster and then, uh,

• 1:36:17Bill Simmons?

  what else do I have? Oh yeah. More podcasts coming this week. At least one more, probably two as we head toward, uh, week one of the NFL season. So stay tuned. We're gonna keep the content coming. Don't forget about all the other Ringer football stuff we have in the works as well. And I'll see you a little later in the week.

• 1:36:47Bill Simmons?

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• 1:37:23Bill Simmons?

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