What Are You Actually Capable Of? Mark Dowdle On Winning A 306 Mile Backyard Ultra

Mark Dowdle is an endurance athlete and former football and lacrosse player. This conversation explores the intersection of endurance and identity, digging into the stories we tell ourselves about who we are and how we get uncoupled from them. We discuss turning pain into purpose, shared vulnerability as connective tissue, faith, why mood follows action, and dancing at the edge of your capabilities — where the mask comes off. Mark is a change agent masquerading as an ultrarunner. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL Birch: Get 27% off ALL mattresses + 2 free eco-rest pillows👉🏼https://www. BirchLiving.com/richroll Noble Mobile: Try Noble for just $10 with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.noblemobile.com Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% off your first month of DS-01®👉🏼https://www.seed.com/RichRoll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Rich Roll?

  This episode is brought to you by Go Brewing. Here's something I never saw coming. When I stopped drinking, and that was a long time ago now, the assumption was that you'd given something up, that you were on the outside of the party. And now, the whole culture has shifted. More and more people are drinking less, or not at all. Not because they have to, but because they just want to feel better. And that shift created room for something that didn't really exist before. Non-alcoholic beer that is actually good. Not a sad substitute, the real thing. And that's what Go Brewing is, and why I got behind it as an investor. It was started by my friend Joe Chura in his garage.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  And these guys obsess over their craft. The proof keeps stacking up, gold and silver at the Best of Craft Beer Awards, more World Beer Cup medals than any other brewery, and a spot on the New York Times Best Non-Alcoholic Beers of 2026. For the record, no added sugars, no unnecessary processing, just real beer made with real intention. They've got this awesome beer club that entitles you to exclusive releases you're not going to find anywhere else, shipped right to your door. So here's what you're going to do. You're going to go to gobrewing.com/richroll50, and there you're going to get 50% off your first subscription order to Go Brewing's Beer Club.

• 1:27Rich Roll?

  I'm just going to figure out how far I can actually go when I'm up against the best competitors in the sport.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  The man, the myth, the legend, Mark Daddell.

• 1:37Speaker 02

  Ultra endurance athlete, based in Minnesota.

• 1:39Rich Roll?

  He is qualified for Team USA at BIG's Backyard Ultra.

• 1:43Speaker 03

  You're a gifted athlete, but this is really a mindset story. We all have a choice to make. One story is saying, you're not good enough. And then there's another narrative where every step that I take is evidence that who I say I am is who I actually am. The story that you want to write is in your hands. People ask me what tip I have for them running their backyard ultra. It really is.

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  So Mark, it's super cool to meet you. In the aftermath, or in the midst of the BPN Backyard Ultra, I was getting so many messages from people like, you gotta get Mark on the show, you gotta get Mark on the show. And Dan Churchill, like, FaceTimed me, and he just went on like a diatribe about like how awesome you are and how you'd be such a good guest. And I already knew that you would be, and I'm delighted that you're here today, man. Thanks for making the trip.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, thanks for having me. It's, uh, it's cool to hear, so.

• 2:39Rich Roll?

  You cut a very different kind of like figure in, in, uh, in the ultra running community. You're a big dude, first of all. And you played, you're like one of those guys that was good at all sports in high school and in college. Football, lacrosse, All-American in lacrosse in high school?

• 2:56Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:56Rich Roll?

  All-state in football?

• 2:58Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:58Rich Roll?

  Played Division III football in college and lacrosse in college?

• 3:02Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 3:02Rich Roll?

  But not track and field, not cross-country? So what happened? How did you get into running? What's the origin story there?

• 3:11Speaker 03

  Probably like most guys that come from my background, you hear David Goggins podcast, and then you're just lit up. It was the spring of my senior year for lacrosse. We had just done a road trip where you'd play three games, lost two out of the three games, I'm sitting in the back of the bus, throwing a pity party, moping about the direction of the season, how things are going to go, projecting all this negativity out into kind of the team, the energy. And my brother sent me the Joe Rogan, David Goggins podcast where he talked about how, you know, he was running 100 miles on a track, 70 miles in, he's defecating down the back

• 3:53Speaker 03

  of his leg, he's pissing blood, and he gets back up with nothing but saltine crackers and, and keeps running. And at that time, I was going through a lot of, you know, trying to go through transformation from getting in trouble with alcohol multiple times in school, and trying to figure out where my life was headed. And I saw this man transform his pain into something meaningful, like something with purpose, and, and actually took action with it. And that is when I started, like, the first thing we did, I did when we got back to St. Paul at 2:00 in the morning was I went for a run.

• 4:35Speaker 03

  And then I started that process of just going out for a run at 4:00 in the morning because I was going to be the next David Goggins, you know?

• 4:44Rich Roll?

  Who's gonna carry the boats?

• 4:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that didn't last very long. But it was this process of sort of an identity search once sports was over. And honestly, this podcast was extremely beneficial because when I got to a point after school, I listened to James Lawrence, and then I watched his 50/50/50.

• 5:09Rich Roll?

  Of the documentary.

• 5:10Speaker 03

  And I was sat on the couch, and I was like, that is what I want to do with the rest of my life. And I didn't recognize this until years later, where I had the opportunity to grab lunch with James, that I understood why. And it's because when he asked me, Mark, what do you think I do for a living? I'm like, well, you're, you do these insane endurance feats, you, you suffer. And he said, my job is to give people hope. And I remember as a 23-year-old kid, sitting on the couch, watching that documentary, that's exactly what it did for me, is it gave me hope for a future where I could transform my pain into something meaningful.

• 5:54Speaker 03

  I could do it inwardly and outwardly. I could bring people along on this journey with me that could help them kind of confront the pain that they were going through as well. And the big thing that James had and has that someone like David Goggins doesn't, or doesn't really show very often, is the family. Watching that 50/50/50 and watching all of his kids be there with him and going on this adventure and learning these life lessons and watching their dad struggle and them participating in it, made me want that life. And I believed that I was capable of it.

• 6:35Rich Roll?

  But you mentioned pain. You said something about how you could see through James's example, how you could be in relationship with your own pain. Like, what was that pain? Like, what are you referring to specifically?

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I, I think for so much of my life, I had chased the wrong things. Where in high school, and maybe in a little bit of, of college, I was chasing acceptance from other people. And I was always trying to align my actions with what I perceived other people would like me to be. And this constant state of not knowing who I am, or not really knowing how to, where my place was in the social group, just left me feeling so disconnected from myself. And when I got to college, I kind of made this conscious choice that like, I'm going

• 7:37Speaker 03

  to do whatever it takes to be accepted by other people. And that came in the form of, yes, extreme drinking and, and partying, and being the best possible athlete I could be in terms of like outcomes. But that also came in the form of like, hey, we're drunk, and I'm going to let my friend shoot a blow dart at me from 10 feet away because I can endure pain.

• 8:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  And it gets attention.

• 8:06Rich Roll?

  Some like jackass bullshit.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  Exactly. And, and that just landed me in situations where then I'd get in trouble with Pub Safe. And there were moments where I had to make a decision to either stop blaming other people or the circumstance or the situation, and, and actually look inward, like, maybe, maybe I have a play in all this. That's kind of what spiraled into me starting to have a journal practice, me getting into running, all these things kind of happened at the same time. And it felt like I was moving towards a different life, but also like running away from this version of myself that was constantly in chaos, constantly in situations that I

• 8:52Speaker 03

  just woke up the next day and was like, what am I doing with my life? Why am I continuing to end up back in the same spot? And running was a great way for me to kind of move forward through that.

• 9:07Rich Roll?

  To process all of that. And that time alone, I think, is, is important in trying to figure that, those kinds of things out. I mean, it was for me, you know?

• 9:19Speaker 03

  So for like football sense, I'd wake up after a night out with shame and regret, and I didn't know how to deal with those emotions. And so I'd bottle them up, I'd push them down. And football was a great sport because I could let those emotions bubble up. And then on Saturday, oh, man, I can, I can take that energy out and inflict that pain that I'm feeling internally on somebody else. And not only that, I was rewarded for that because that was my sole responsibility, not soul, but like, as a defensive player, it was to make big plays and tackle and get the ball back. And you did that by confronting people head-on. And so that was the cycle that I was in.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  And when I found running, I noticed that that... Hole or that weight in my chest, I'd come back from a run and I wouldn't feel that anymore. And that to me was a kind of that first instance where I didn't have to continue in that same cycle. I could find a new one. And also, there was this cool line of as I would run and as I would move forward, physically, I felt like I was able to process things emotionally in tangent with that thing. And so if I was dealing with an emotional situation, or I was dealing with identity, or I was dealing with something that I didn't want to feel, going for a run helped me process that

• 10:46Speaker 03

  in real time and feel like I was moving and walking with that as well.

• 10:51Rich Roll?

  And you were developing a self-awareness of that as you were doing it?

• 10:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 10:55Rich Roll?

  You were aware that this was, you know, kind of like a healing thing for you as you were continuing to explore it?

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and writing was probably the biggest thing that helped me recognize that because I was able to take time to then think and contemplate and reflect and actually write down what was going on. And I brought some journals that I was reading on the way here. It's like, it's so, I'm so grateful that I did that because then I have this documented journey of what was going on internally for me at the time. And to see what I was processing and really how I was communicating with myself. Like, when I first started writing, it was a lot of like, stop doing this, you dumb idiot, like really being negative to myself and having a negative voice in my head. And over

• 11:48Speaker 03

  time, there was a lot more grace, a lot more forgiveness, and a lot more recognizing that perfection isn't possible, but you can continue to make strides towards the life that I wanted to live. And I just, you know, was able to document that and write that down and have that really sit in.

• 12:10Rich Roll?

  There's a difference between leaning into running as like this mental health, you know, kind of component to your life and making the decision that you're gonna push the envelope and see how far you can take it. Like, what was it about running that made you, is it like a Goggins, James Lawrence thing where you're just like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk in their footsteps and see how far I can go with this? Or why not just make it like this thing that you do an hour a day to ground yourself?

• 12:41Speaker 03

  Because I'm an ambitious person. I wouldn't necessarily say that I have an addictive personality, but I can get stuck on things. My dad has been sober for 28, 29 years. The embodiment of AA, I grew up listening to him on phone calls with people, trying to get them help. He is like the most invested person in AA that I know.

• 13:07Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 13:07Speaker 03

  And so, hearing that all throughout my life, I sort of had that as an anchor point. And like genuinely listening to people on this podcast where there was a, an Olympic athlete you had many, many years ago, but they talked about that life after winning gold was just lost for them. And seeing people like Ricky Gates and the people that were here, there was something that they had that I wanted, but it wasn't because of the outcome or the massive victories that they had. It wasn't because of the podium place that they were standing.

• 13:49Speaker 03

  It was because of this deeper understanding of who they were, how they were impacting other people, how the choices and decisions that they were making was impacting positively the other aspects of their life. And I just, I wanted that. I wanted that because for so long, I didn't have that. And I didn't know where to find it. And running was that small little insight of getting a taste of that. And, you know, I think maybe is like, oh, if I get it at this level, then if I do these big things, then I'll get it on a grander scale.

• 14:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 03

  Which is true, but also it can lead down a dangerous path as well.

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  I've been following your journey for a little while. It feels like you're having a bit of a moment right now as a result of the, the BPN backyard race and then following that up in short shrift with the mid-state mile race. Both of those races, at least in my information bubble, like we're just, you know, like my feed was just constantly being refreshed with more and more videos from those races. And those videos seem to travel pretty far and wide and impact people that aren't like inside the ultra-running bubble. And I think it leads to this impression that you just arrived on the scene, like, you know, like you, yeah, but you, you've been doing this for a while, and even longer than I thought, you know, like,

• 15:15Rich Roll?

  I, I, I knew we're gonna talk about like some stuff that you did in 2023, but when I went to like Ultra Sign Up and like looked what you've been doing, like you, it goes all the way back to 2020.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:26Rich Roll?

  And as far as I can tell, you didn't really start running until like 2019.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  But in 2020, you did, in like a two-week period, you did two 50Ks in a 50-miler. You got like on January 11th, you ran a 50K and got second. On January 25th, you ran another 50K. And then on February 1st, you ran a 50-miler and got fifth.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:48Rich Roll?

  And you're like one year into your running adventure and doing like those three races. And literally like, I don't know, what is that, 16 days or something like that?

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  I'd run a marathon.

• 15:59Rich Roll?

  Anonymously, you know what I mean? So it's like, you're, you're, you're coming out hard, you know, years before anybody knows who you are.

• 16:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I, you know, if you run a marathon, you can do double that, right? You know, if you run a 50 mile, that was my mindset at the time. A lot of what I did, once, you know, 2020 hit, a lot of the stuff that I've done that has really transformed how I run, why I run, and the what, the manner in which I'm able to do what I am today, happened off Ultra Sign Up. You know, we did a handful of, of charity runs for this nonprofit that we started called Love Like Glory Legacy. A teammate of mine from the football team, he's a good friend still today, Blake, his mom passed away from pancreatic cancer back in 2020. And so, to

• 16:48Speaker 03

  raise money, awareness for pancreatic cancer and pancreatic cancer research, we ran a series of Love Like Glory runs. You know, we raised over a hundred thousand dollars over the course of three runs, 160 miles, then 266 miles, and 500 miles.

• 17:06Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  And that is where I really learned what running meant to me because it revealed to me that we're all walking around with pain. And it could be emotional, it could be spiritual, it could be physical. And out there on the run, my pain was physical, but Blake's was an emotional and a spiritual. And I learned that when we walk together in that, when we share how we're feeling from a place of like truth, of really getting down and not running from the pain, not trying to bury it, but actually trying to get to the center of it and do it together, that we can see the light that's on the other end of the tunnel. Even if we're not there yet, we can recognize that it exists and we can move toward it.

• 17:53Rich Roll?

  That's really beautifully put. Uh, yeah, there's something about dancing at the edge of your capabilities that, you know, and being in that place where you can't run away from yourself and you have to confront your own personal truth and your pain. And when you're doing it with somebody else like that, that kind of like shared vulnerability is the connective tissue between human beings that ails the spiritual dilemma and the emotional pain that, you know, we all kind of compartmentalize and hide from. You know, it's like, there's no escape, you know, when you're, when you're in that place. And that's where you, you discover

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  yourself and you develop this thirst for self-understanding.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, the mask comes off.

• 18:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 03

  You can't pretend to be somebody in that moment. You are who you are.

• 18:47Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:48Speaker 03

  And that's a beautiful thing about these, you know, the backyards or the long, you know, distance charity runs. It's like, I got to know who I was in those moments. Now translating that to the day-to-day life is, is difficult because there's a shelf life or a short, you know, lifespan to that. But it's a, a recognition of being able to pull something out of that experience and be like, okay, um, when I face my truest self, I'm not afraid of that person. Actually, I'm, I'm okay meeting that person and meeting what that person has to tell me about where I'm currently at.

• 19:29Rich Roll?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp, which is why I'm gonna cross my legs right now and lean back into my therapist posture. BetterHelp surveyed a couple thousand Americans this year, and shockingly, 85% said getting support is a wise thing to do, but 74% felt like society still quietly discourages it. That gap is nuts. Like, we believe in the importance of getting help while simultaneously being discouraged to seek it out. Well, you do not have to wait for a crisis to talk to somebody. Therapy can just be a place to slow down and work through what's been building up before it feels unmanageable.

• 20:11Rich Roll?

  And BetterHelp makes all of that super easy with a starting point that's an easy lift. You just answer a few questions, they handle the matching, and you're connected with a fully licensed therapist who works under a strict code of conduct. If the fit isn't right, you switch anytime. And with over 30,000 therapists, that's a lot, it's served more than 6 million people. That's even more, with a 4.9 out of 5 average from over 1.7 million reviews. The point is, don't let stigma stand in the way of support. Start therapy with BetterHelp. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com/richroll. That's betterhelp.com/richroll.

• 20:55Rich Roll?

  Element has been with this show for a very long time, but it has been really fun to watch them expand. First into sparkling cans, and now into something brand new, lemonade iced tea, which is now the newest addition and my morning go-to in my home gym. And what I've noticed by incorporating this into my routine is a reduction in my coffee consumption, something I confess to drinking more than I should, often because coffee does a pretty good job of quieting the signal that my body is tired. But what actually supports energy at a foundational level is hydration, replenishing your electrolytes. And by practicing this more consistently with Element, I've discovered a better and more sustained degree of energy

• 21:38Rich Roll?

  in my workouts, of course, but also over the course of the entire day. Element is the electrolyte formula that has everything you need and nothing you don't. No additives or sugar. And their new lemonade iced tea builds on that. Same electrolyte formula, plus 50mg of naturally occurring caffeine from tea, along with L-theanine and polyphenols. So it feels smoother, something more strategic than typical caffeinated drinks to reach for when you want to stay sharp. So check it out. Try out Element's new lemonade iced tea. Get a free eight-count sample pack of Element's most popular drink mixed flavors with any purchase at drinkelement.com/richroll.

• 22:23Rich Roll?

  You really get to know your mattress in the summertime. Don't laugh, it's true. The nights get warm, and if you're sleeping on a slab of synthetic foam, you're gonna feel it. And now, I've been on a Birch mattress for about, I think about five years at this point. And I think the thing I notice the most this time of year is that I just sleep cooler. It breathes. And that comes straight from what it's built out of. Organic cotton, natural latex, real materials, responsibly sourced. Firm, yes, but also comfortable, and more importantly, built to last. No polyurethane foams, no questionable off-gassing, which matters when you think about how much of your life you actually spend on the darn

• 23:06Rich Roll?

  thing. And they make it easy to find out for yourself. It ships free, rolled up in a box, simple to set up. You get 120 nights to see how your body responds, all risk-free. And they back every single mattress with a limited lifetime warranty. Because they own their own manufacturing and stand behind the work, they can do that. Sleep is the foundation everything else is built on. And it's really worth getting it right. I want all my listeners to enjoy a deep, restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com/richroll for 27% off site-wide. That's birchliving.com/richroll and get 27% off site-wide.

• 23:49Rich Roll?

  You've also done an amazing job in sharing all of that. Like, you're very transparent in how you communicate publicly around your relationship with your running and these races, et cetera. Like, you're a constant presence on Instagram and your YouTube channel, where you're not afraid to just talk about, like, this is how it is, this is how it feels today, this is what I hope to do, here's where I failed, here's what I learned about myself, here's something about mindset that might be helpful to you. There's a service aspect, maybe that comes from your dad in AA or whatever, but you're always giving back.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  I appreciate you recognizing that. I don't have anything to hide. You know, in terms of what running has done for me, or what I'm trying to get out of it, like, going into BPN, a lot of people were, like, asking, do you think you'll win? Or asking, like, outcome-related questions. And I'm like, I'm just going to figure out how far I can actually go when I'm up against the best competitors in the sport. And I listened to an interview, and Kim, he was one of the four guys remaining, he was the co-winner last year, and him and I are good friends now. And he's sort of recanted and taken back what he said, but he was in an interview talking about how he was willing to die.

• 25:11Speaker 03

  He said he was willing to die to win that race. This was before the race. And I just laughed.

• 25:18Rich Roll?

  You listened to that before? Before you did it, you're like, okay, well, you know, when push comes to shove and you're in it with him, if he's willing to die, like, what am I gonna do?

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Well, I kind of reject that. No one's willing to die. When push comes to shove, I hope you're not willing to die for this game. It is a game at the end of the day. It is a, it's a race, and it's fun, and we take it serious. But I do not find all of my value through running in a way that I'd be willing to literally die for an outcome that will not serve me going forward. And I think a lot of that has to do with support with my wife at home, the friends that I have. One of the most, like, people ask me now what tip I have for them running their backyard ultra, it really is, find yourself

• 26:11Speaker 03

  a Lucy. And Lucy is my wife. And it is because when we're driving back from BPN, and my social media is going crazy, you know, I'm got, I got reached out by you, you know, and I'm getting hit up by all these people, and my agent's like, oh, you got all these brand opportunities now. She just says in that chaos, in that storm, Mark, people will love you now for what you just did. And now you have a spotlight on you where they will love you more for what you will continue to do in the future. Just know that myself, and your friends, and the people that know you for you, will always love you for that.

• 26:54Speaker 03

  There's nothing that you can do that will earn more of our love. And we will, we want you to succeed. We want you to keep doing these things. But you don't have to do those things in order for us to love you. That is what I have in my corner. That is what I'm grounded by. And it's a constant reminder of that, and from her, that allows me to not get wrapped up in the messaging of, like, I'm willing to die, I'm willing to go deep, I'm willing to search within myself. But I think the, the intention is different. The intention is, is not rooted in something that is going to lead me down a road where I'm, I'm searching for identity again.

• 27:40Rich Roll?

  It's not about earning love and acceptance. It's about a deeper connection with yourself. And that notion of, like, I'm willing to die is, is kind of, reading between the lines, it's about winning. Like, that's what I have to do in order to beat somebody else. But what you're saying is, this is an internal journey, and I'm trying to unlock my best performance, but it really doesn't have anything to do with anyone else. And, you know, win, lose, or fail, or whatever happens, I know who I am, and I know that, you know, the people that I surround myself with are gonna love me nonetheless. And it's, yes, maybe I'll get, you know, some external validation and attention, but, you know, that's, that's,

• 28:24Rich Roll?

  that's a transient kind of, like, thing, and I can't control it. And it's actually functionally meaningless.

• 28:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Which is a very mature and healthy relationship to have with those sorts of things.

• 28:37Speaker 03

  Well, it's, it's taken a lot to get there. I mean, college sports was focused on national championship, or the seasons of failure, you know? And so, I was reflecting on this just recently of how

• 28:54Speaker 03

  Having that intention, even when I look back, I miss out on all of the ways I could have been a better leader or a, someone who's just more invested into the experience because if we didn't win, therefore we weren't valuable, therefore I wasn't valuable as a person. And that therefore, all the intention of the work and the people around me were focused on these external materialistic values that may not have led to the most successful outcome. As, as like, when I look back, it's like, how did you build people up? How did you take moments, maybe in the lunchroom or the cafeteria, to learn more about a person to build a stronger relationship because that relationship will actually translate to the

• 29:39Speaker 03

  field in a way that you won't be able to write down in the stat book. And that is where I try and focus more of my attention on now is building some of those more emotional or spiritual things because that actually translates when it gets hard.

• 29:58Rich Roll?

  And you were 19 years old.

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:01Rich Roll?

  It's like, come on, you know, like, yeah. Give yourself a little bit of grace, you know? I want to read this thing that's on your website, uh, under, under your bio. Instead of having a traditional bio where it's like Mark Dowdle is this person and he's done these races, it says, "At 3:00 AM on day three, Mark Dowdle was hallucinating. His legs had stopped feeling like legs hours ago. His body was negotiating with his mind to quit. He watched elite athletes sit down one by one and not get back up. He kept going, not because he felt good, because he needed to find out what he was actually capable

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  of." And then it goes on to talk about like, it's sort of a pitch for you as a speaker, but essentially, what you're saying is, uh, this really isn't about like needing to run 300 miles. Uh, it's, it's about your capacity to manage yourself appropriately in extreme situations, which is a capacity not reserved for the elite or some kind of outlier, but is something that we all have, uh, the ability to do. And this is kind of what you talk about, like you're a big mindset guy, like you're a personal development guy, like running is really an expression of the work that you have done on

• 31:25Rich Roll?

  mindset and how you think about human potential. So how do you articulate what that thesis is?

• 31:32Speaker 03

  No matter the circumstance that we're in, whether it's a physical endeavor like running or it is a situation at home with a relationship, we all have a choice to make about the story that we want to craft. I find this so fascinating during these backyard ultras is competing narratives in my mind of what I'm actually capable of. And on one hand, one story is saying, you're not good enough, you're not worthy enough, you aren't able to finish this how you thought you could, you didn't do enough work.

• 32:12Speaker 03

  Every, you know, you talk more than you actually are, you're not this person you think you are. And then there's another narrative where it is, every step that I take, I create the story that I want to write. Every step that I take is evidence that who I say I am is who I actually am.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  The way that I feel right now is not the full truth. And at certain moments during the race, I can get hung up on one or the other.

• 32:43Speaker 03

  And yeah, I want to continue to try and create that narrative, but sometimes it's just submitting to the fact that you don't always have a choice in that. It's, it's, it's, I mean, you have a choice to create that and create the evidence, but that doesn't mean it's going to lead you to the place that you want it to. Taking a step forward, um, allows you to create that, that narrative.

• 33:05Rich Roll?

  Hmm. We're all living out a story that we're telling ourselves about who we are. And I think most people can't, uh, distance themselves. They, they, they overly self-identify with that story, whether it's positive or negative. In every case, it's not factually correct, you know? It's a fictional narrative that was installed before our brains were fully formed, based upon our upbringing and our experiences, et cetera. And it kind of gets locked in and it's only when you take actions contrary to that narrative that you can begin to form a new one. And you have to uncouple your identity from that story as being one and the same.

• 33:51Rich Roll?

  But it's a constant process because it's so entrenched, you know? If it's negative, it's like, oh, it's never going to work out. And, you know, this is who I am and because of this, like this is how things always work out for me. And then you take an action that contradicts that and you have to assemble those little pieces one by one, like Legos in order to craft that new narrative. But that old one, it remains, it's like an ongoing battle.

• 34:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I mean, you say it frequently, mood follows action. And it's being willing to take those actions despite how you feel or despite the circumstance and know that by taking those steps forward, it will lead to a better place.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Just for people who are listening or watching and, and may not be familiar with like what this BPN race is and what mid-state is. BPN, which is Nick Bear Supplement Company, they sponsor you, right?

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 34:50Rich Roll?

  Was this the second year that he put on a backyard ultra on his like ranch in Texas? And for those that don't know, a backyard ultra is when you run a 4.2 mile loop on the hour, every hour. And the competitors continue to do that until they can't make the time cut and they drop out until there's just two people left and you keep going until somebody can't make the 4.2 mile loop in the allotted time. These races have just skyrocketed in popularity, uh, I think beginning in the pandemic because those, it was something that people could like do at home and share on social media. And it's become highly, highly competitive.

• 35:32Rich Roll?

  And I just know for myself going into watching, uh, this BPN race this year, I was like, all right, well, Harvey Lewis is doing this race. Like, like this is the, this is the hybrid athlete, you know, like bro situation here. These guys are going to get absolutely shellacked by Harvey, you know, when they see like a guy who really knows how to do this. Uh, what's the record that Harvey set going into that race? It's since been broken, but it's in the 400 mile range, isn't it?

• 36:02Speaker 03

  It's like 118.

• 36:04Rich Roll?

  118 loops. Yeah. So we're talking, closing in on like 500 miles, you know, like just absolutely like mind blowing. But in the case of this race, Harvey ends up dropping out like before it came down to two people, like at what point did he pull out?

• 36:23Speaker 03

  The race went for 73 hours and I think it was maybe around 60 hours that him and Kim, the, we were the final four, but those two guys dropped at the same loop.

• 36:37Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. You end up winning that race 306 miles in 73 hours?

• 36:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 36:44Rich Roll?

  Is that right? Stunning victory. And then shortly thereafter, you go do this race called Midstate Mile, which is a backyard ultra, but you're only running a one mile loop, correct?

• 36:57Speaker 03

  One mile loop every 20 minutes with 340 feet of elevation per loop.

• 37:02Rich Roll?

  Hmm. And you're, and it's you and Harvey once again.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:06Rich Roll?

  And what happens in this race?

• 37:08Speaker 03

  Harvey, uh,

• 37:09Rich Roll?

  How many, first of all, how long after the BPN race was this race?

• 37:13Speaker 03

  So, uh, BPN was April 10th, this was June 20th.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  So you had a decent amount, okay.

• 37:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. And Harvey invited me to come to this race. And he, which Harvey, we'll see what your intentions were for inviting me to this race.

• 37:34Rich Roll?

  Uh, yeah, with a, with a twinkle in his eye and a smile.

• 37:37Speaker 03

  I want payback on this guy.

• 37:39Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna get the best of this, I'm gonna get back.

• 37:41Speaker 03

  But he, he pitched it as, hey, Biggs has a lot of elevation. Um, him and I will be teammates this year for Team USA.

• 37:49Rich Roll?

  And that's in October, right?

• 37:50Speaker 03

  It's in October.

• 37:51Rich Roll?

  That's like the, like premier backyard ultra race.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  So we'll be on a team of 15 for that, competing against like 70 other countries. But he wanted to prepare along with me for that by doing this race. He'd always wanted to do this race and he thought it would be great training and just fun to compete against each other. And so we did it and it was brutal. I mean, average grade is 30%, gets up to 60% incline.

• 38:22Rich Roll?

  60%?

• 38:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:24Rich Roll?

  And it's two big climbs. That's almost like rock climbing.

• 38:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. You, if you, if you lean back, you were stumbling back. Um, Franklin, Tennessee.

• 38:33Rich Roll?

  I didn't realize it had that kind of, uh, that kind of elevation gain.

• 38:38Speaker 03

  But Harvey won.

• 38:39Rich Roll?

  Harvey, yeah. So Harvey wins this race. Uh, there's a video of him like sprinting at the end, like what is going on with this guy? Uh, it seems on paper, not knowing about that elevation aspect to it, that running a one mile loop would be easier. Setting aside like the grade aspect of it, what is the difference?

• 39:02Rich Roll?

  Doing a 4.2 mile loop versus a one mile loop.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  Rhythm and timing. Like my greatest asset is having my wife Lucy there. She cooks all the food that I eat. And because we come back to a tent, there's a level of when I enter that tent, I sort of get to break down the walls and let her know genuinely how I'm feeling. And we can talk about that and it just be a place for us to come together. And in this, you don't have a tent to go back to. You are stuck in this corral where you have three by three space where you get a chair and a cooler and you're next to all 114 other runners.

• 39:44Rich Roll?

  Like a triathlon transition.

• 39:46Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 03

  And instead of having eight minutes, that feels like forever. You have maybe three minutes. And because of the elevation, because I, you know, I tend to like to take my time and, and not overburn on, on courses. I was coming in with like 30 seconds to a minute. And it just wasn't enough time. And you can't sleep because of the limited time. They do a, every 12 hours, a 20 minute intermission. So you can sleep during that, but it's just so out of rhythm. Where, you know, you sleep for 10 minutes and you eat for five, but by the time you're getting back up, you're stiff because you've been down and you're out of that rhythm.

• 40:29Speaker 03

  And it was just the whole, just your rhythm is off. It just, the format didn't create this very easy system where you could shut off your brain. And you could take time, like during the BPN race, when it was down to us four, I laid down belly first on the course. And I was able to have this two to three minute reflective moment where I sat and I said, you know, I want to quit. This is getting hard. But will the version of me 24 hours from now be able to honestly say that I gave everything I had in this race? And I could have that moment and it not cost me on time. And I could get back up and then keep going.

• 41:12Speaker 03

  If you do something like that at mid-state, or if you take a pee that's longer than, you know, a minute and a half, you could time out. And just to catch back up, you're hammering down these hills that have rocks and roots everywhere. And, you know, one bad step, or it's late at night and you're tired, you trip and you fall, you smash your face. And so I just think that, that quickness, that upbeat, being able to stay with it.

• 41:39Rich Roll?

  It's like an interval workout, like a very, very long interval workout.

• 41:42Speaker 03

  Feel your heart rate.

• 41:44Rich Roll?

  Also, you being a big dude, like you're at a disadvantage with that kind of elevation gain. It's gonna, it's gonna beat you up more than it's gonna beat up a guy like Harvey.

• 41:52Speaker 03

  I think my quads handled it better than Harvey's quads.

• 41:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you get, you have a lot more muscle that can get fatigued.

• 41:59Speaker 03

  True.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  A lot more lactate buildup.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  True, true.

• 42:06Rich Roll?

  The most important resource we have is time. And we need to really understand how important that is because most of us are wasting too much of it. What do you think, Andrew?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Well, shoot, man, we just checked our screen time and apparently I'm spending six and a half hours a day staring at what Hassan Mihaj calls my rectangle of sadness.

• 42:28Rich Roll?

  I'm embarrassed to say mine is even worse. This is a real problem. We need to begin to really value our time. And this is what the mission is behind Noble Mobile. Am I correct?

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yes. Noble Mobile is the first wireless carrier that will actually pay you to use your phone less. There are billion dollar companies that want to maximize engagement to maximize their own revenue and profit. And who's benefiting from that? Them, not us.

• 42:55Rich Roll?

  We can point our fingers at them. We can blame them or we can do something about it.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Yes, Noble Mobile. Check us out at noblemobile.com. You can switch in five minutes and it's only $10 for your first month if you use the code.

• 43:07Rich Roll?

  Rich Roll.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  That's right. Take back your time, your attention and get that money.

• 43:13Rich Roll?

  And they'll pay you for using your phone less.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yes. Pay you to do the thing you know you want to do anyway.

• 43:19Rich Roll?

  Yes, sir. Andrew Yang.

• 43:25Rich Roll?

  This episode is sponsored by Seed, which is what I have right here. Let's talk about what most of us keep secret, which are disruptions in our gut. Bloating or gas or irregularity, all the embarrassing stuff that kind of seems minor until it's quietly ruining your day. And what gets missed in all of this is that this stuff isn't just uncomfortable. It's really limiting in how you live your life. It's cutting a run short because you're not sure your stomach is going to cooperate. It's hesitating on whether to say yes to dinner plans. Now, I'm not immune from any of these sorts of things, but I got to tell you, Seed's DSO1 Daily Symbiotic

• 44:05Rich Roll?

  actually has been very effective in eliminating this problem for me, which is just one of many reasons why I've been using it daily for many years now. Seed's DSO1 is a 24-strain probiotic and prebiotic clinically validated to improve regularity, reduce bloating and ease gas. So if you're ready to feel the difference, I think you are, use my code richroll25 for 25% off your first month of Seed DSO1 at seed.com/richroll.

• 44:41Rich Roll?

  So if I was to say, ask you like, what is your superpower, strength or advantage in the backyard ultra context? Is it your strength? Is it your resilience because you're kind of born and raised in the Midwest and have tolerated terrible weather conditions or?

• 44:58Speaker 03

  I do genuine believe that the strength that I have is not a running per se. It's not necessarily strength per se. It is that I'm committed to this mission of finding out what I'm capable of and my heart and my spirit are way more leading the charge than anything else. Because during mid-state mile, there came a moment, we ended at 10 a.m. Monday morning, but by midnight, I knew I wasn't going to beat Harvey. I, I just knew it. He was looking way too strong. He had gone through one low point and then popped back out of it and was looking great. And I was just banged up. And

• 45:44Speaker 03

  I just made a decision there. I was like, I don't care if I don't win this thing. I need to know. I need to know that I gave everything I had out here. And for 10 hours, I was able to do that, knowing that the outcome was entirely removed. Knowing that, you know, the outcome that I wanted to happen there wasn't going to happen. And all throughout that day, my mind was looking for an out. My mind was looking for an opportunity to stop. I even was like hoping and praying that I would just eat it going down the hill at night so that I could have some other excuse than quitting.

• 46:26Speaker 03

  But it is, and I think, I get this from my mom, this relentless will to not give up on something. Like my mom is the type of person where if I lose this wristband in this room, she will fly out here and she will not leave until she finds it. And she will find it.

• 46:42Rich Roll?

  What is that about?

• 46:43Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 46:45Rich Roll?

  This is just, this is baked into your genetic code.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:49Rich Roll?

  What is the practice of that? Like, how do you, do you have, you talked about journaling, but are there things that you do to get yourself primed and in that mindset so that you can weather those low moments, those difficult trying moments when everything inside of you is telling you to quit?

• 47:08Speaker 03

  I mean, my faith is a big, is a big piece of that.

• 47:10Rich Roll?

  Has that always been consistent in your life or is this something that, yeah, talk about that?

• 47:15Speaker 03

  No. You know, grew up in the Catholic household, went to the Jesuit university, went to Catholic university, but never was like so sick of hearing it from my dad. So sick of hearing it. After I went through this phase of chasing happiness, I replaced that with a chasing achievement because I thought that if I do these big events, these big races, these big challenges, people that I respect and admire in the sport, then they'll respect me and then I will have achieved something meaningful to my life. I will feel whole.

• 47:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 47:54Speaker 03

  And, you know, I did this year-long calendar club where part of the intention going into that was to see what I was capable of. But there was also this intention that if I did it, I would gain social media attention. I would gain sponsorships. I would gain admiration from other people. And seven, eight months into the challenge, none of it happened. And I was listening to Sally McCray talk about on a podcast where she finds strength in those moments in her 200 mile races where she is reminded that she's made in the image of God. And something about that just stirred my spirit in a way of like, I've tried everything to feel whole. And I have never found it.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  And maybe this is a place where I haven't yet searched because I have been taught it by my parents for so long where I just, I don't want anything to do with it. Or I just never actually took the time to take a genuine step of faith, not from a religious background, but from like a genuine step of maybe this is something that I should seek out. And from then, I was able to actually separate myself from running as an identity, running as a way of making money or, you know, growing an audience or creating an impact. And recognize that if it gets taken away from me tomorrow or today, God forbid,

• 49:22Speaker 03

  it will be hard. It will be very hard and there will be a time of mourning for that. But I will be okay. Because the strength that I have comes from a foundation of faith, but it also comes from having a strong will and a strong spirit. And I look at a guy like Mike Egan, who was at the BPN race, who was in a wheelchair.

• 49:43Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, that is, talk about, is like an incredible story.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  That is the embodiment. And I've texted him about this. I'm like, I, I see more in common with you than I do a lot of other runners. Because when you're watching a man drag his wheelchair, doing whatever it takes, even when the loop time had passed, he, even if he finished that loop, he couldn't continue on, but he was, he, he had a will and a desire to just see what was the limit.

• 50:14Rich Roll?

  No, no race win, no amount of money, no amount of people following your story will give you what that can give you, the peace that that can give you. And you can only find that by you doing the work to get there. Nobody can give that to you. And so I find a lot of strength in recognizing that there is something deeper about what I am doing that these external material things can't provide to me. How old are you?

• 50:45Speaker 03

  Twenty nine.

• 50:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like dude, you're so young. When I was twenty nine, it's an absolute disaster. Yeah. Like you're just at the beginning of, you know, I can see the amazing life ahead of you to have that grounded, you know, sense of meaning in your life where everything is in its proper place. Like you're just set up for the right kind of life. You know, it's really beautiful.

• 51:12Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 51:13Rich Roll?

  The guy in the wheelchair. Oh my God.

• 51:15Speaker 03

  Mike.

• 51:16Rich Roll?

  Like he's, it's like, it's covered in mud. You can't even turn these wheels and he was out there like doing, like doing a backyard ultra in the mud in a wheelchair. Like I've never seen anything like that.

• 51:27Speaker 03

  When we rolled up, I, this is not a great thing to admit, but I just thought he was out there because it would be a nice little publicity thing. Like there's no way somebody can do this course for more than a few loops. And I didn't know much about him going into the race, but then I saw and I was like, okay, this makes a lot of sense.

• 51:53Rich Roll?

  Meaning like, what is it about that guy? Like who, I don't know anything about him.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  He is a, he's a veteran. Um, he, the, his legs, he stepped on a landmine, IED, you know, he went through tons of surgeries and he got to this point. Um, he shared his story on a podcast recently and we listened to it on our drive to mid-state. But what I see in that man is somebody who has a relentless will to not let his circumstance define him. And that to me is, those are the people that inspire me is people who don't allow whatever they're going through to define who they are. And it goes back to what we talked earlier. It's like, he is the one that's creating the story that he wants to live

• 52:42Speaker 03

  by. And that to me is powerful. That to me is empowerment. That speaks to, to people more about how they can change their circumstance and take ownership in their life than winning a backyard ultra. Maybe the, the ways in which I've gotten there, or the ways in which Harvey got there speak to it, but it's not the win. It is what you're willing to do despite the win.

• 53:05Rich Roll?

  When I was up at Trail Con, uh, the other week, there were all these panels going on and one of the, like a recurring topic of conversation is the future of ultra running, the change, the changes that we're seeing, we're seeing money coming in, we're seeing so many, you know, new people coming into this sport and various, you know, capacities. And there's a lot of like concern and hand wringing amongst the OGs of what is this going to do to this culture, the subculture that we care about so much? Uh, and you know, how are we going to make sure that we protect what's great about this sport when all of these other influences are now, you know, coming in? And I would imagine that, that

• 53:50Rich Roll?

  like what Nick Baer is doing with BPN is, is, you know, for that old guard is somewhat like a ruffling of the feathers because he doesn't, he's not the, the picture of the ultra. He's not like the guy with the mustache living in a van down by the river. You know what I mean? He's doing something very different. And what I find interesting about this is that the new people coming in are in charge of determining what this culture is. And there can be many cultures that can coexist.

• 54:17Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 54:17Rich Roll?

  And this is a guy who, uh, is introducing this world to a whole different kind of community or cohort of people and athletes. And because he's so good at the content and filmmaking piece, he's able to create stories that resonate with people and are magnetizing people who otherwise might not ever even consider this sport to start signing up for these things, which I think is, you know, that's a net positive overall. Uh, but it is interesting the cultural shifts that we're seeing happening right now.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think that's, that's just gonna happen. Um, I look at a guy who's really doing this well and it's Harvey, where he's a older guy in the sport. He's still competing at a high level, but he has adapted tremendously well of putting himself.

• 55:12Rich Roll?

  He can pop into any community and he'll proudly wear his vegan stuff, you know? It's like, he just dropped into the, you know, go one more red hat wearing like world of like bros and hybrid athletes. And he's just, his skinny, happy self with his, you know, vegan, with his vegan attire on, you know, and everybody loves him because he's just oozing positivity and love for everybody that he meets.

• 55:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think with the, the new age, I mean, I'm a product of people like Harvey, people like yourself, people like Ricky Gates and Robbie Ballinger. Like I'm a product of listening to the, those people. So I stand on the shoulders of giants type of thing. But I'm also a part of this new age of coming from a untraditional sport background and using social media in a way that maybe some other people didn't have access to, or I'm very much fit, you know, in, in a lot of ways, the BPN type of person.

• 56:14Rich Roll?

  Lacrosse player.

• 56:16Speaker 03

  Hundred percent.

• 56:16Rich Roll?

  Player.

• 56:17Speaker 03

  What that does though, is the amount of people that then signed up for their first backyard because of what they watched during BPN, I'm getting like hundreds of DMs about that. And I think what that does is it allows people to get more invested in the sport where then they can look at a guy like Harvey where they might not get pushed his content because they're looking for maybe gym bro content. But now they're starting to understand somebody like Harvey or like Phil Gore or some of these really OG people in the sport, and that helps them as well.

• 56:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 56:54Speaker 03

  So I think it, it all bubbles up to help everybody. But it's, I think somebody like Harvey who's embracing that change and putting himself in the center of that. And dude, he's bringing us along on this journey of his as well.

• 57:08Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 57:08Speaker 03

  He is really the face of the sport and he's grown the sport and he loves it and protects it. And there's a sense where when somebody has that much investment in it, I want to honor them and respect that. And he's willing to bring us along on that journey.

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  What you did in 2024, I think it might be the most interesting thing that you've done.

• 57:29Speaker 03

  What's that?

• 57:29Rich Roll?

  Which is, uh, this 475 miles worth of running to arrive in Ontario for the beer mile world classic. So basically you, at some point you get enamored with this beer mile thing.

• 57:44Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 57:45Rich Roll?

  And you're like, this is my jam.

• 57:46Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 57:47Rich Roll?

  Uh, but instead of just showing up to the beer mild world classic to participate in the amateur category or whatever it was, you decide that you're gonna run there. So you run from Chicago to Milwaukee, then you catch a ferry across Lake Michigan. And then you start basically running from college to college across Michigan, like running beer miles with like lacrosse athletes or something like that, to eventually 475 miles later arrive in Windsor, Ontario for this beer mile championship. And then what happens?

• 58:26Speaker 03

  Just competition.

• 58:27Rich Roll?

  I mean, I mean, what you do, you end up getting second, right? In this race in the amateur category, you run like 551 or something like that. But you do it in like this, like pink and purple, like button down shirt.

• 58:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:44Rich Roll?

  Um, so this is pre backyard ultra, but you're, you must be thinking at the time, like I'm the, I'm gonna be the beer mile guy.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  I still am the beer mile guy. That is the thing most people know me for is you're the beer mile guy, right?

• 59:01Rich Roll?

  Oh, they still know you as that guy.

• 59:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, a little bit more now because of the BPN thing. But man, it is, the beer mile happened because during calendar club, a way to sort of celebrate the end of the month and the beginning of a new month was to invite people to do a beer mile. And I got pretty good at them. And I liked the competition aspect where it's like this really quick thing. And then I, you know, that content was doing well online. So I tried to lean into it and see what I could make of it, which turned into beat my beer mile where I'd raced college athletes.

• 59:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have a bunch of videos. Yeah. Like you show up, like you get the football team and they run a mile and the challenge is they have to go faster than your beer mile.

• 59:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 59:46Rich Roll?

  Which most of them can't.

• 59:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 59:50Rich Roll?

  Here's what BPN should be doing. They should combine these two things and make the backyard ultra, they should add the beer into it. So after every lap, you have to drink a beer and that would completely change the whole thing. Like, how long could you go? How many beers?

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  I would not.

• 1:00:07Rich Roll?

  Harvey is not. Yeah, I don't know, man. I think maybe you're made for it, you know?

• 1:00:12Speaker 03

  Well, I.

• 1:00:12Rich Roll?

  I think you would definitely put Harvey into the, into the grave with that one.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  I got Harvey on that one. Harvey, let's do that one. Yeah. I mean, part of it too sparked is I coached one year football after college because I thought I wanted to be a football coach because I didn't want to work a typical nine to five. And I learned very quickly through that experience that there's a difference between loving football and loving to play football. And I did not love the sport. And I wanted to be a coach in large part because I wanted to counsel young men that I now on the other side had better tools to deal with the emotional and the, you know, social problems that I dealt with very poorly in college. And I would just, there was no time

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  for that in football. It was strictly football. And over the course of the beer miles, I transitioned to more NA beer because I just, it wasn't about the alcohol.

• 1:01:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Speaker 03

  And going to these college football teams and getting them excited about this weird quirky race that they were being put out of their comfort zone and then being able to sit and talk to them about their experience. That to me drew me closer to being able to have an impact that I wanted in football. And the, you know, the run to Windsor was because I'd look at a guy like Ricky Gates and I saw his trans Americana and like that, dude, I get tears watching that YouTube video. It is the thing I recommend to anybody who is interested in learning about ultra running and running and what it means to, like, to me, what it means to get to the core and the essence of it. And so that to me was like, I'm quitting my job

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  and I'm going to run home to my house in, in Chicago, Illinois. And then I'm going to run to Windsor and I'm going to have my own Ricky Gates experience.

• 1:02:04Rich Roll?

  Meaning, uh, you're going to go get like a stroller or a push cart and do it Ricky Gates style. I mean.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  Sleep in parks, find a random spot.

• 1:02:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You mentioned, uh, your interest in, in coaching football stemming from this desire to be, uh, a helpful voice for young men. And I feel like that is, that's the spirit and the sensibility in which you kind of show up on social media. Like, it's always positive mindset oriented. It's never like, look what I did or anything like that. Like, I feel like you're fulfilling whatever it is inside you that wants to be that mentor and that coach, uh, at least digitally in the way that you, um, acquit yourself on social media.

• 1:02:49Speaker 03

  That's what I hope. I think it's always, uh, it's affirming or reaffirming to get feedback, you know, that some of the DMs I've gotten is, is incredible. And I'm just so appreciative that people are taking that message and then taking action in their life. You know, when the, one of the months of the calendar club challenge, I had encouraged people to come out and I would help set their new distance PR. And one of my buddies, Landon, he came out and he did 13 miles. Then a guy from his hometown had seen him do that and

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  decided to sign up for his first half marathon. And only because he'd seen Landon do that. And to me, it was this opportunity to see how what I was doing was rippling out into this friend that I had. And because he had taken action on, on a belief, um, it had caused a ripple effect out. And that's only possible if people take action. That's only possible if, like, I don't want to create a bunch of couch supporters or people that are just there to cheer me on. I genuinely want people to take the lessons that I'm learning and apply them to their own life. In the ways that I was able to do and still continuing to do

• 1:04:15Speaker 03

  and learning from guys like Harvey and I want that for other people. And I think what, the thing that I do that embodies this most, that I get to witness this is the run and plunge stuff we do. Because in real time, it is watching people do something that they never thought they could possibly do, let alone run five miles. Like, most of these people showing up aren't runners. And then you get to see them transform. And then the next week, you see them bring back a friend. And they're inviting people into this experience. And I think so many people watching this or listening to this, you have that ability to impact somebody

• 1:04:56Speaker 03

  in a way that gets them excited to show up more in their own life. And if, if, if nothing else gets taken away from what I have to say, it is that, like, what you do matters, how you treat people, how you impact people matters. And it starts by you showing up and demonstrating that in your life so that people can say, if you can do it, I can do it too.

• 1:05:22Rich Roll?

  You're a change agent. You're a change agent masquerading as an ultra runner. You know what I mean?

• 1:05:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:29Rich Roll?

  Like, that's the real mission that you're on, I think.

• 1:05:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Rich Roll?

  And running is a vehicle for expressing that, that idea. But you're trying to get people to wake up and transform their lives. When you're out running your calendar club training plan, do you have like threshold days or tempo days? Or is it all just zone two, you know, in your mind or whatever, like whatever pace you can sustain for that distance?

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's like 12 and a half minute mile.

• 1:06:01Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:02Speaker 03

  And it's stopping at a grocery store to get some doughnuts or something.

• 1:06:05Rich Roll?

  And that's, that's it.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  There's no threshold, you know, there's no.

• 1:06:12Rich Roll?

  There's no need for you to run fast, ever.

• 1:06:15Speaker 03

  Ever.

• 1:06:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  Ever. So it's, it's really more, you know, the running has, I've built that foundation and that year long calendar club really built that foundation. Um, but to me, what gets affected more in the backyard ultra are those moments where I have that identity of who am I? And so to me, it's trying to find ways to do that more in my own life. Like, I've said this before, but I don't get to decide if I'm a good husband. My wife gets to decide that. I don't get to decide if I'm a good friend. My friends decide that. And so it's that constant communication and relationship with, am I showing up with

• 1:07:02Speaker 03

  the fullness to which I need to show up in the places that I need to? Or am I just thinking that I am or telling myself I am or stroking my ego enough to tell that story in mine? And if there's any disconnect in what is reality versus what is like a self belief, then that is what will show up for me 70 hours into a backyard ultra.

• 1:07:24Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:24Speaker 03

  And so as much as the running and the strength training and all that is our good work towards becoming a better athlete, I, I really lean on trying to be the highest of character person I can be.

• 1:07:39Rich Roll?

  How is this relationship with running contributing to you being a better human as opposed to an ego obsessed, performance optimizing maniac?

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  Great question, Rich.

• 1:07:55Rich Roll?

  No, I mean, that's, that's the question you're at. Yeah, like, this is, this is, there's a difference between being able to put in a good performance at a crazy race like that and somebody who's looking at that as a means by which to become a better human being.

• 1:08:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. Early on in my journals, it was me trying to create evidence to build courage and confidence. Because I didn't have that as, I had that belief, but I didn't have that as the reality. And now that I have a lot of the accolades or the things that that person, that younger kid would have knew in his heart, but couldn't actually show anyone or even himself. Now it is a constant trying to go inward and remain grounded and humble because now on the other side, there, all of those things can, can get wrapped up and swirled and taking me in a direction that I don't want to go in or get wrapped up in things

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  that, um, aren't at the core of what I do. And I think having a strong wife and keeping me grounded in that way has been the biggest blessing that I could ever ask for because she really keeps me rooted in the things that ultimately matter. And, you know, funny instance where at mid-state, um, I was 24, 30 hours in and I waved off one of our helpers or, you know, our crew guys, Cody. And she was like, Mark, mind your manners. These people are here helping you. And I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. So it's just like, it is this,

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  I have these good people in my corner that don't care about that, don't want me to get wrapped up in that. And I think that, that has helped me in ways that, um, I'm so blessed for.

• 1:09:52Rich Roll?

  What is the message to the person who's stuck? It's similar to the question I asked you before, but.

• 1:10:01Rich Roll?

  If you were to like, look directly into the camera and deliver the football coach speech to the young man who's on the couch and can't get off YouTube, likes your videos, maybe even watched the VPN livestream and is inspired by that, but is struggling to connect the dots, translating inspiration into contrary action.

• 1:10:25Speaker 03

  I think it is trying to bring the awareness to the disconnect that you feel with yourself is because of a lack of action. Like, it all comes back to what you are either doing or not doing to bring yourself closer to this belief that you have. Because if they feel stuck, that means that they feel like they should be somewhere else that they're not. And the only way to get there is by taking a step forward. That's the only way that I get through the backyard ultras. That's the only way that I get through any of the hard moments in my life have been taking the next possible step forward and then taking it and not being

• 1:11:07Speaker 03

  so focused on the outcome or focused on the result of that, but just appreciating the fact that you took one step and you can look back and see that you are now farther along in the journey to be coming closer to the person that you want to be.

• 1:11:22Rich Roll?

  Hmm. It's about the step that you can take in the moment that you find yourself in. It's not about running in the cold to the Mississippi River and taking a sledgehammer to the river to jump into the, you know, like, I think people think, well, I'm not really doing anything unless I'm doing something like that. It's not going to matter whether I get up and walk around the block or decide to put my phone down for an hour. But those really are the levers of change. Each tiny little thing that you do engenders you with a little bit more self-esteem than you had prior. And it's about building ever so gradually on top of those things. People

• 1:12:03Rich Roll?

  don't realize you've been out crushing ultras for like seven years now. Like, you've been run, you, you put, you put seven years into being able to do what you've done this past year and to set yourself up for the races that you're going to be participating in this year. It didn't happen overnight. And yeah, you were a football player and a lacrosse player and you had some experience with being an athlete, but you weren't a runner and you went into this unknown world and you went all in. But, you know, it started with that first jog when you were confused and your identity as an athlete was being challenged and you were trying to figure out who you were or who you were going to be in the aftermath of that college experience.

• 1:12:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. The podcast with Rachel, I think she, you guys touched on how it was one decision, very similar to mine, of going out for this run and then you, you now have this understanding of what potential you have and what you can have in the future. And one small decision made many, many times opened up the door for this incredible experience for her to win this race and inspire so many people. But that only happened because she took that first step.

• 1:13:19Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:13:20Speaker 03

  There is so much potential in anybody's life, the person listening to this, that you will never experience if you just sit and do nothing. And nobody else can do that for you. Nobody else can want that enough for you. You either have to be in fear or hate your situation so much that you're willing to change, or you have to want that outcome or that, that journey or that person that you want to be to become a reality so bad that you're going to do anything to make it happen. But it all, like, the mountaintop is one step. The journey I've been on took one

• 1:13:58Speaker 03

  step, one run, and building upon that. And it took seven years. And I'm still not done. You know, I'm still on this journey. It's still the same process, but now it's, it, that momentum has built.

• 1:14:15Rich Roll?

  When I think about your story, I think you are a beautiful embodiment of what I call the holy trinity of change. To change, you have to do things. It's about doing, it's about action, contrary action, consistency, momentum, all of these very kind of like tactile, practical, actionable, like, things that you have to do to move your life forward in a different trajectory. But there are also a bunch of things that you then have to undo. Like, if you just keep doing, eventually you're going to be running in place unless you look in the rearview mirror and start to untangle like a bunch of knots about your story and why you are the way you are. Otherwise, you're just, you're going to trip yourself up

• 1:15:00Rich Roll?

  at some point and you're going to plateau. So you have to be able to have the courage to do that part of, of change, I think. And then the third, the third piece is being, like, you have to be able to be present at some point. You have to be able to show up conscious enough so that you can enjoy this experience that you are having, so that you can return it to other people as an act of service. Because if you're not present and you're always caught up in the next thing or what happened the day before, you're missing your entire life and you're missing the gift that you've been given that you are in the position to then pass on.

• 1:15:45Rich Roll?

  And I see you kind of firing on all cylinders with respect to that. And, and, and being such a young person, like, that's truly inspiring.

• 1:15:54Speaker 03

  Thank you. The thing I've been most proud of, that has helped a lot of saying yes to a future ahead. You know, there was a time when I was on a work trip in the van in Texas, and I went back to a stadium that I played in a national quarterfinal game, junior in college. We lost that game. I was distraught after that game. And years later, I went back and I sat in that stadium and I just watched myself. And I watched this kid who was getting in all sorts of trouble, dealing with all this emotional burden and, and not knowing how to deal with

• 1:16:37Speaker 03

  it and walking around surrounded by people but feeling entirely lonely. And now, three years later, I was able to forgive that person. I was able to look at that person and understand that the reality of the situation that he is in is not the full truth because I'm sitting here today and I get to see where the life has, has led to from that decision and from the decisions that followed. And that to me, of like, sitting in reflection and recognizing that, like, this goes back again, like, the story that you have, that you want to write,

• 1:17:17Speaker 03

  is in your hands. And I truly believe that no matter what situation or circumstance somebody is in, they have the ability to make that change. And if they decide to do it, they're going to bring other people along with them because people just, they're drawn to that. When people decide to say enough is enough, I want to move in a different way. There's going to be some friction, I'm sure. But there's also going to be people that have been waiting to be given permission to do that in their own life. You can be that person to somebody else. And you don't have to do 500 miles or 300 miles at a backyard. You don't have to run to the

• 1:17:58Speaker 03

  Beer Mile World Classic in order to do that. You just have to take whatever is, whatever you're running from right now, whatever your fear you are afraid to face, when you face that, you will inspire somebody else in your life to do that as well.

• 1:18:14Rich Roll?

  The AA version of that is the person who has seven days of sobriety is going to have a larger impact on the person who just walked in the door who has zero days than the person who has 28 years. That's an alien to that person. Just like Harvey Lewis or you is going to be an alien to somebody who's never run a mile. But if you've never run a mile and you run one mile, then you are a source of inspiration for that person who can't get off the couch.

• 1:18:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:18:47Rich Roll?

  Which means we all have the capacity to inspire and uplift the people around us.

• 1:18:53Speaker 03

  And everybody on that journey is as important to the impact of the continuum of that.

• 1:19:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:02Speaker 03

  We need everybody along that path. You need the person to run one mile. You need that fight, like, everybody, what is hard to you is hard to you. It is not different than what's hard to me. It's just a different experience because of the years of which I've been doing this. But somebody's 5K is as hard as running 306 miles is for me. And you need to step into that.

• 1:19:32Rich Roll?

  Beautiful, man. I think that's a, that's a great place to end it for today.

• 1:19:38Speaker 03

  Amazing.

• 1:19:38Rich Roll?

  You're amazing, dude. I'm such a fan. And I feel like you're just at the beginning of this amazing career and adventure. And you have so much to give. That's your gift and that is your superpower. Running is just one way of giving you a platform to express that. But when the day comes and ultra running isn't what you're doing anymore, it feels like you're going to transition this into some other way of continuing to carry this message, which is, which transcends like the sport of ultra running. And it's, it's a privilege and an honor to spend time with you, dude. Thank you.

• 1:20:17Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me on.

• 1:20:18Rich Roll?

  Right on, dude.

• 1:20:18Speaker 03

  Seriously.

• 1:20:19Rich Roll?

  Right on. Peace.