TBT: Karen Gravano

The iconicness continues this week with Karen Gravano, former Mob Wives star, best-selling author and Co-Founder of The Body Depot Spa. Karen leaves nothing behind as she dishes about growing up as the daughter of infamous mobster Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano, her complicated relationship with costar Drita D'Avanzo and the drama that played out on and off camera. She also reflected on how her father's high-profile crimes impacted her life and family and how she got through it with a hustling spirit and a commitment for prison reform advocacy. Watch Full Episodes & More: www.dumbblondeunrated.com Karen: IG https://www.instagram.com/karengravano/?hl=en | The Body Depo https://www.instagram.com/the.bodydepot/?hl=ent

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bunnie XO?

  What's up, guys? Don't forget to sub to Patreon so that you can see the visuals, because not only do we have episodes of the podcast, we have exclusive content that nobody else sees on any other apps, behind the scenes, photo shoots, and we're dropping a whole bunch of surprising stuff this year. So if you guys don't want to miss out and you want to be the first to know, go over to our Patreon, www.dumbblondeunrated.com. Love ya. Is this thing on?

• 0:27Speaker 01

  Bonnie, who used to be a former sex worker, now hosts the podcast Dumb Blonde.

• 0:32Bunnie XO?

  Most little girls grow up wanting to be doctors and lawyers and shit. And I was like, I want to be super hot, make a lot of fucking money and be a rock star's wife. That was my goal as a child, and here we are. What's up, you sexy motherfuckers? Welcome to another episode of Dumb Blonde. On the pod today, we have a woman who was born into a lifestyle that so many people glamorize, and still to this day, it's now a trending topic on TikTok. Today, we get to hear the real pain that this lifestyle brings from a woman who's lived it and survived, Miss Karen Gravano.

• 1:02Speaker 02

  Hi, beautiful. Thank you for having me. First, let's start off with that. I'm excited to be here.

• 1:06Bunnie XO?

  I'm so happy that you're here. Like, I was just telling you, I don't watch a lot of reality TV shows, but Mob Wives, I was religiously watching that shit every week. And the reason why was because that shit just was, felt so real, you know?

• 1:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:23Bunnie XO?

  And it was just, um, it was a time when TV was great.

• 1:27Speaker 02

  Yes. We were at the height of reality TV.

• 1:30Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:30Speaker 02

  And I think what made Mob Wives so authentic was that we really knew each other. We really all had history together. We weren't just a cast put in a house, and we didn't like each other because, you know, somebody said something in a situation. We had a lot of history, and it kind of, um, got crazy at times, but it came through where, for me, especially doing the show, I wanted it to be where I could tell my story and maybe somebody can take something away from it. Um, sometimes I felt like it got blurred with the fighting and the arguing. It got petty at times, but the reality was, we all kind of went through different struggles, and we were able to put that on TV. And people now come up to me and say, you know, "Thank you for sharing that. I had a similar situation." Or, "I went through this, and I could relate because you guys were so real." And that's,

• 2:16Speaker 02

  you know, that's hence all the years later, and the fighting's done and over with. Um, you know, it's, it's, it's good to hear that.

• 2:23Bunnie XO?

  It was all of you guys, you guys' vulnerability. And I think that's what made people be able to relate to you guys, especially women. You know, like, we all go through silent battles and battles and family trauma and bullshit. And I think a lot of women were able to kind of, I don't want to say latch on, but maybe like admire, you know, each one of you for different reasons. So it was, you guys are fucking icons.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:48Bunnie XO?

  Which is why we're doing these podcasts this month because I, um, you know, Mob Wives started trending on TikTok.

• 2:55Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:55Bunnie XO?

  And as soon as I saw that, I was like, oh, this is, we gotta get, you know, Karen, Renee, we gotta get everybody on. Because you guys, I feel like this generation missed out on you guys, you know?

• 3:07Speaker 02

  It, it, they did. But people, you know, they see like now it's, it's back on Paramount Plus, they're putting it out. And we, I'm getting some like younger kids now say, I watch your show. Um, but it's just, it was a crazy time in TV. It's unfortunate that we're not back on the air, but it kind of gets into a lot of, um, political stuff with the producers and the network.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  I don't know if a lot of people know, but we kind of fell in that whole Harvey Weinstein saga, where Harvey was the producer for Mob Wives. So when everything happened with him, his intellectual properties had to go get sold to another production company. And when everything finally pans out, um, some of the producers, um, one in particular hung on and they didn't want to get, they didn't want to sell it. And so they were kind of getting greedy with the money and, you know, we were never canceled, the network wanted to have us back, but it was just the negotiations between the producers and the network just didn't pan out, so.

• 4:05Bunnie XO?

  I had no idea that Harvey Weinstein was involved until we had that phone call. And I was mind blown. And then I, it was right there in the credits. When I was watching, catching up on some of the Mob Wives episodes, just to get familiar again, you would see him and I think like his brother in the credits.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Bob, yeah.

• 4:19Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, Bob, Bob, Bob and Harv.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  So it is crazy. Um, you know, as, well, I don't know if you know, but when they sell shows, they don't usually bring the cast with them. And, um, prior to Mob Wives, they actually brought us all on. The pitch meetings because I guess they thought we were so authentic and the way we interacted with each other. And um Harvey would come on the meetings and it was just, it was funny.

• 4:43Bunnie XO?

  Hit on you or anything like that?

• 4:45Speaker 02

  No, everyone always says that they're like, did you ever, I said, no, we kind of got fucked in our contract from them in a way, but never physically.

• 4:52Bunnie XO?

  He just fucked me financially.

• 4:53Speaker 02

  In a way, yeah, but that's, you know, in reality TV, you sign, you sign your life away. Which is, you know, you, I get it now.

• 5:01Bunnie XO?

  Oh, now that it's resurfacing, are you guys getting residuals from that?

• 5:05Speaker 02

  No, we don't. We never, um, and I don't, I don't know, um, especially back then. Like if people were privy to like all the residuals and doing all that, we didn't, it wasn't in our, it wasn't offered to us.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  I'll tell you how my boy, because at first I was like, I'm not gonna be on a TV show, a reality show, like I have too much baggage. So um Jennifer Gravano, which is Renee's sister, and I, we were actually talking about doing a scripted show, we were just in talks, um. We've been childhood friends, she was there when I went through all this stuff with my father. We kind of stopped talking for a while, but then we reconnected. And one day she says, hey, listen, this guy is pitching an idea to me about women, you know, whose husbands went to prison and. You know, what do you think about it? And I said, it'll be good. She goes, I've been thinking of casting Drita, what, what do you think? I said, she's definitely good for TV, you know, she's. She's a character, so she would be good for that. And um as her negotiations got further along, she was like, what about Renee? I said, Renee is definitely made for TV, like.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  Drama out of like a crumb, right? So it's like Renee is good for that. And then she was like, well, I have Renee's friend Carla, so anyway.

• 6:14Bunnie XO?

  Carla was beautiful.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Yes, and Carla was, um. She's just real, right? She called, she came with a lot of like mob histories stuff too, and like. She set her boundaries, like this is what I'm not gonna talk about, and she always stuck to her guns. And like one thing I do, because. In the beginning, you know, her and Drita were friends and at the time of our war, and she was not having it, like. They would try to sit us down and be like, can you explain to Carla and Carla, I don't give a fuck, I'm friends with Drita, I don't wanna hear it. And I always liked that about her because she's loyal. Even if I felt she was loyal to the wrong person or she, you know, and then. Kind of as the series went on, I guess she's seen for herself and you know, the tides changed. And her and Drita, you know, were no longer friends, but. She has always stuck to what she believed in. She doesn't, she doesn't wanna,

• 7:00Speaker 02

  she was the hard one, they always said, because she doesn't feed into drama. And they'll be like, you're on a reality show. You guys need to talk about it.

• 7:07Bunnie XO?

  I feel like somebody had to be the calm to you guys' fucking storm, though, because y'all were fucking wild.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:12Bunnie XO?

  I mean, plates flying, fists flying, hair flying, like.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Everything flying.

• 7:17Bunnie XO?

  That had to have been so hard for you. And we're gonna get into it, um, you know, all the stuff that happened as a little girl and, and forward, but just kind of reflecting back, that had to have been so hard for you to have to go face these people after everything that you had already been through.

• 7:34Speaker 02

  Prior to the show even starting, um, when Jennifer, the producer, had asked me if I wanted to be on it, I was like, hell no, I have too much baggage. Like, I left New York, there was real stuff because of that lifestyle that has happened to me and my family. And it's like, still ongoing. Like, I still, till today, deal with it. So, um, I just didn't think reality TV was a platform for me, although I was in negotiations for writing a book and actually a movie at the time. Whatever, I come back and they're filming the sizzle reel and, you know, I can't help it but sit down at the table with them. And, you know, the sizzle reel is where history was really made because it was iconic. And that's what sold the show. And so Jen comes back to me and she's like, you gotta be on the show. And I was like, okay. So the show comes back,

• 8:19Speaker 02

  they wanna buy it. And I'm like, what's the name? They're like Mobwise. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I'm not coming back and being like, mob this, mob that. Like, I stepped away from that. In my mind, when we sat down and talked about it, it was for women who went through struggles and overcame them. And they're like, Karen, you're such a good person because you went through, your entire community turned on you. You know what I mean? And there was so many things, there was a hit put on my brother. Like, he was five minutes away from getting his head blown off. Then I moved to Arizona with my family and my whole family gets arrested for selling drugs. We become a drug cartel in Arizona.

• 8:51Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, we're gonna have to base on all of that.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  When I'm telling you everything, like from credit cards, to jewelry, to houses, to restaurants, to cars, we had nothing. I just had a little baby. I had to come home and start over. And I did, and I made it. So they were like, that's the story that we want to tell. And I'm like, you know what? If that's what I want to tell too, because if people can relate to me or I can help someone, because I know the dark places that I've been in and how I've overcame it. Um, this is something important to me. And then next thing I know, we come back and we're like fighting each other. But, um,

• 9:22Bunnie XO?

  I feel like they set, they kinda set you guys up for that too, because you and Drida already had like beef that was off camera, right? Because you used to date Lee.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  So I dated him for six years.

• 9:33Bunnie XO?

  Okay, oh, okay. I didn't know it was six years.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  We were together for six years. He moved to Arizona with me. Um, we came back and she was my friend. She was a friend that no boyfriend wanted, like you're not allowed to bring that girl into the house. It was like that type of situation. And me, like, nobody could tell me who I could hang out with, right? So I always stuck up for Drida. I always like fuck with her. We had a weed service at a time where me and um, my friends ran a weed service.

• 9:59Bunnie XO?

  Called aromatherapy, right?

• 10:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 10:01Bunnie XO?

  I love that name. And we'll talk more about that too.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  And um, you know, we all had money. We came from a background, our parents, we were hustlers and Drida had nothing. So I'm like, come on, girl, here, like, let's go hustle. Here's an opportunity for you to make money. And she never wanted to do it, but I was the type like, alright, I'll go up, I'll make the sale here, give her some money. Like, I wanted her to be an equal with us, because that's just how I am. Like, I never want someone to be around us and feel like they're, you know, need us to pay this or to pay that.

• 10:28Bunnie XO?

  When you say being equal to us, is it because she wasn't Italian?

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and just not even that. It was just like, you know, we were all hustlers.

• 10:38Bunnie XO?

  Gotcha.

• 10:38Speaker 02

  You know, like, we had a weed service. We had, you know, apartments, cars, and she was, you know, the girl that would come around and couldn't go to eat at this restaurant because she didn't have money. So it's like, come on, girl, I'll get you some money. Let's, you know, and it was never, I never wanted anyone to feel like I'm trying to be your boss or be like, be my equal. Come on, we can get this money. Let's get it together. And when we had the weed service, she just really wasn't, she just didn't want to do it. So um, neither here nor there, it was like, you know, she just, I'm, I'm the one that actually brought her around. And then all of a sudden I leave and I go to Arizona and I find out that her and Leah are together, which is like, okay.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  I think as a woman, like, here's where I think everything got confused from Mob Wives, because it wasn't portrayed right in the beginning. As a woman, I think you owe that to your friend, to be able to at least say, hey, girl, listen. Hooked up with your man. She never said that.

• 11:33Bunnie XO?

  And you guys were still together when she hooked up with him?

• 11:36Speaker 02

  No.

• 11:36Bunnie XO?

  Okay.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  It was after, like I had moved on, but we, me and her was still friends. We never had a falling out. So if you and him are together, you could say, hey, like, give it's a phone call. But that's where she said we weren't friends. So we went from being friends. I, that's where I don't get it. How do you pick and choose when we're friends and when we're not?

• 11:53Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  When it's convenient for you, now we're not friends. And it's not that she, I'm like, the way they were trying to make it like I'm, like, I need you to explain this to me, not just common courtesy as a friend.

• 12:05Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, let's have a conversation.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  You never gave that to me and whatever, it bothered me. So for me, and then she kept saying, well, you guys weren't really together. I lived with him, you know, we were together for seven years. So it just started becoming like, I was this obsessed ex-girlfriend, but really it was about respect because I always respected you. I always brought you to the table with us as an equal. The reason why you're even on Mob Wives is you weren't friends with Jennifer. I made you guys become friends. No one really even liked Drita in the beginning. She was like my friend and now it's like, oh. And let me backtrack and I'll probably like, people probably won't like me for saying this, but before Mob Wives ever aired, we were all together. Me and Drita sat down at tables and been like, girl, we're gonna show that no guy could ever come between a girl.

• 12:51Bunnie XO?

  Oh, wow.

• 12:53Speaker 02

  So nobody knows that. We pitched Mob Wives. We went into every network with Harvey Weinstein, with the producers. We all sat down together. So then when the show aired and it came out, me and Drita had this thing, like we're, we were friends. And you know, we kind of fell apart because I went to Arizona, I moved away, you got with Lee, but we're back and you know what? Fuck him. Where our friendship matters more than all that and we're gonna, you know, rekindle our friendship. But then it became, oh, Drita don't want you at her house. You can't film in her house. You can't like, so the producers are telling me things. And I'm more like, what's up? Like, is there an issue? I don't want you to talk about Lee. I don't want this to be said. Well, you can't tell me what to say or what to do.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  And even in my book, this is where it all, like, I was writing a book before Mob Wives. I have a real history in that world. Lee is like not even a factor. So when she was like, you can't put him in your book. I'm like, who are you to tell me what I could write in my book about? So that's why I wrote the little paragraph about, you know?

• 13:55Bunnie XO?

  I'm going through that now with my book. I have an ex coming out of the woodwork saying, don't put me in your book. And I'm like,

• 14:00Speaker 02

  It's your life.

• 14:01Bunnie XO?

  I'm like, you're, you abused me.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:03Bunnie XO?

  You know, like, why would I not show people that what I did after? It's not about you. It's about what I overcame. Yeah.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 14:11Bunnie XO?

  No, that's wild.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  And that's where it all started stemming from. And it was a lot of what, I mean, all the producers will even say, there was so much behind the scenes that was happening. Um, before Mob Wives even came back, and I think the opening line was, I came back and said, fuck Sammy the Bull, fuck John Gotti, I'm gangster. Which was like, why'd you say that? And it had nothing to do with the girls. It had to do with people saying, don't put her on the show. Street people, don't bring her back. Don't do this. And it was like, that couldn't happen because the whole show was based off of Mob Wives and my name was the name that was gonna, you know?

• 14:48Bunnie XO?

  Your dad is pretty fucking notorious. So for everybody who's listening, your dad is?

• 14:54Speaker 02

  Sammy the Bull Gravano. He was the underboss of the Gambino family. You know, the whole John Gotti, Sammy the Bull saga that has followed me for my whole life, you know? And that's what really sold Mob Wives. So for people, for, for everyone to be on that show and then start telling me what I could do, what I can't do, like, it's not, I'm not, you know?

• 15:13Bunnie XO?

  Like, no motherfuckers.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  No motherfuckers.

• 15:15Bunnie XO?

  No motherfuckers. They didn't have none.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:16Bunnie XO?

  So let's circle back, um, to your childhood because I did some re, I did a bunch of research, um, because I wanted to make sure that I got everything right. And, you know, there's a lot of layers when it comes to the mob and stuff like that. And I just want to say that, and I was telling this to them earlier, I actually have a new found respect for your father and your family because I didn't really, you know, you hear about Sammy the Bull and you hear like, oh, he's a rat, he's this, he's that. But if you, if people ever took the time to really listen to the story, your dad pretty, and we'll get Into it pretty much warned John Gotti and was like, hey, man.

• 15:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:57Bunnie XO?

  Stop trying to fucking put this all on me. Like, it's not gonna happen. And then he even tried to have their trials separated, right? And Gotti refused it. And so your dad was like, you know what? It's fucking showtime.

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 16:09Bunnie XO?

  And I'm sorry, but if I was in that situation, not that I, you know, am that type of personality either, and I don't think your father is. But when you have the world coming against you like that and people are trying to pin you for shit that you you've already done your shit. You're gonna admit to doing your shit, but people are trying to pin you on more shit. I would have probably done the same thing your dad did.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  You know, I I agree with you because at this point in my life, I can say I I understand. And I'm happy that he did that because he did have another route that he considered taking and that was killing John in prison because John double crossed him.

• 16:42Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 16:43Speaker 02

  And I think my father's famous line was, John's a double crosser. I'm a master double crosser. And that's what that life is.

• 16:48Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, your dad's pretty fucking gangster, dude. It is wild when I would the shit I was learning about him.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  So, um, yes, when, um, first of all, prior to them getting arrested.

• 17:03Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, let's let's go all the way back. Let's go back to you just being born into this. So you're born, you you were raised where?

• 17:11Speaker 02

  In Brooklyn and Staten Island. I lived in Brooklyn until I was eight years old, then we moved to Staten Island.

• 17:15Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, I'm looking at my notes. So if you see me looking down, I literally have a shit ton of notes for you. Um, so you were raised in Brooklyn and Staten Island.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:24Bunnie XO?

  And take me on that journey, you know, your dad was a hustler. He wasn't always a gangster, correct?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  No, he pretty much started in the mob at a very young age. I mean, in in, so I wanna say like, Brooklyn and Staten Island is kind of like the breeding ground for the mafia. And, um, my father grew up, you know, intrigued with that lifestyle. My grandfather came over from Sicily and, you know, they he was on the opposite side of the street. My grandfather was a legitimate guy. And, um, the men on the other side of the street, you know, there was always respect and the way my grandfather respected them. You know, my father was always intrigued and my father said, you know, how do you know this one particular guy that my grandfather knew back from Sicily? And he said, um, He's a bad guy, but he's one of our bad guys, you know, he's good to us. So that always stuck in my father's head because he's like, well, you know, what did he mean by that?

• 18:13Speaker 02

  But the mafia took care of their communities, they took care of their own, and that's really what Kozanoshia. I mean, I can get deep with you, but.

• 18:20Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, let's get deep, cuz I got, I got tons of shit in here, so, yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Kozanoshia is this thing of ours, and what it is, is the mafia actually protected and policed their own communities. Like, back in the day, if someone couldn't come in a community and hurt a little kid or rape a girl, you're gonna get killed. The mafia protected their own, so.

• 18:39Bunnie XO?

  Which I feel like they should do to this day.

• 18:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:41Bunnie XO?

  Because people who hurt children need to fucking be not on the streets.

• 18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, they didn't go to the police, they went to the mafia, and um, when it came here, they, you know, kinda migrated to New York, and Sicilians, they were immigrants, you know, they were trying to make money, so the mafia started rackets, like where they got into the garment industries, the, the construction industry, and um, it really was about their own communities and benefiting themselves.

• 19:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  And when you become part of that lifestyle, you understand if you betray that lifestyle, death is the, you know, that's the answer, that's what happens, if you betray that lifestyle. So that's what Kozanoshia is, it's a community of men that came together to be able to provide for their families through crimes or whatever, but you're supposed to always be loyal to that lifestyle, and if you're not, it's death is the, is the penalty. So my father was intrigued with it from a young age, you know, he was in a young group called the Rampers, which eventually was like a farm team for the mob, and then he graduated, um.

• 19:44Bunnie XO?

  Cuz there's levels to this shit.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, he, he committed a murder when he was, from, it was a hit from a gangster that, you know, and that's how my father made his bones, his bones in the mob, literally, and was, um, then created to be a made man, and he was made, I think, the year that I was born, which was nineteen seventy-two.

• 20:00Bunnie XO?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Or a summit, like, right around there.

• 20:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, I think, I have it in my notes.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:05Bunnie XO?

  Let me put my bifocals on, hold on, um, yeah, keep going, though.

• 20:09Speaker 02

  So, um, once you're a made man, it's like, you know.

• 20:13Bunnie XO?

  Nineteen seventy-six.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  Seventy-six he got made, or maybe that murder was around the time I was born.

• 20:18Bunnie XO?

  It's where it says, uh, Castellano inducted Sammy into the mob.

• 20:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:21Bunnie XO?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  So, it was right around when I was born, um, he, he, um.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  He loved, you know, he felt like he was part of a brotherhood. It was a community. They took care of, he's, everything that he believed in was Kozanosha.

• 20:35Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  And he lived it. He, you know, it didn't matter if your family becomes second to Kozanosha, that's your first family. And my father was a very loyal soldier. He was very respected. He um was a very, you know, powerful person within that lifestyle. He had a huge hit team. And at the same time, Gotti was kind of growing in his ranks, but he was more from, and I know it's all New York, but back then it's like worlds apart. My father was from Brooklyn and he was from, you know, Queens. So um, I guess when they kind of met each other, they both had respect and um, how the whole Gotti administration, so my father was from Brooklyn with this guy Frankie DeChico,

• 21:17Speaker 02

  who was another very powerful person within the mob. And um, they were very much into construction. So Paul Castellano was a construction guy.

• 21:26Bunnie XO?

  And is that what you believed that your dad was into? Like you didn't know that your dad was in the mob?

• 21:32Speaker 02

  I didn't know what the mob was. I kind of felt like we were different, but I just didn't know.

• 21:37Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  You know, because so many people around me were the same, like my cousins and you know, you're going to interview Ramona later, her family. It's like, we all grew up in that lifestyle. We would go to school with other people and realize that we're different, but I never like felt like I was an outsider because I had a whole community that was the same as us.

• 21:54Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  And you know, they were very close knit. So um, my father was very big into construction. Like he could have probably been a huge construction person and like owns, you know, a big construction if he didn't do the mob stuff. But um, yeah, that's, you know, his thing was construction. He was, he made a lot of money.

• 22:15Bunnie XO?

  So growing up in that, you know, of course you, you as his daughter get the perks. When did you finally start thinking to yourself like, something's not right here, like?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  So I want

• 22:27Bunnie XO?

  I don't even know if saying not right is the thing or like, hey, I'm or kind of like learning that your dad was in the mob.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  I always was like very in like, I was a daddy's girl.

• 22:37Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 22:38Speaker 02

  So I was always intrigued with him like, and I remember one night I was gonna, I wanted to sleep at my friend's house. And my mother was like, no, you're sleeping home, whatever. And I remember my father had come home and he was doing something in the room. He was like very, you know, running around and he had left. And that night I had said to my mother, can I sleep out? She was like, no, I want you home. And then the next morning, I see on the paper that the nightclub that my father owned, the person was killed in the club.

• 23:05Bunnie XO?

  Frank Fiala.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  Yes. And then I remember.

• 23:08Bunnie XO?

  Did I say it right?

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I'm reading it and I remember hearing prior that my father was having issues with the guy through a dinner conversation. He was saying something to my uncle. And then I looked at the paper and I'm he he's dead. And I'm like, wait, my father have anything to do with that? And then here comes dad in the kitchen cooking. Hey, girl, you need anything? Like, you know, it's like, no, he couldn't have like, and I was so young. You don't ever look at your parent like, they could be a bad person, right? Especially someone that truly takes care of you and loves you and protects you.

• 23:36Bunnie XO?

  That's gotta be a mind fuck almost.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:39Bunnie XO?

  In some sort of way, because you get to see the loving human that he is, and that's dad. And then, you know, in the papers and on the streets, it's like he's this, you know.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  This, yeah.

• 23:51Bunnie XO?

  Forced, forced to be reckoned with.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  So for a minute I thought about it, but I was so young, I never thought of it again. And then um, I had gone to a school, it was like the school on the hill in Staten Island called Staten Island Academy. And um, I remember going over my friend's house, which she lived like diagonal from Paul Castellano. And I was to Paul Castellano's house with my father, just in the car a couple of times. And the girl said, I said, I think my father's friend lives over here somewhere. And she goes, oh, not that house. A big gangster lives there. And I'm like, a gangster? What's that? And in my head, you know, I was like, yeah. And she's like, I don't know. My father says that we shouldn't go by that house. A gangster lives there. And I'm like, Well, maybe if that guy's a gangster, then my father could be a gangster. We could live in a big house. Like, you know, I'm a child and this is what I'm thinking.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  I didn't think of it as a bad, you know, thing. Um, but when Paul Castellano was killed, I knew. That's, that was like the, I knew my father was involved in that.

• 24:48Bunnie XO?

  So let's get into that. So after the whole thing with Frank Fiala, I guess what had happened was Frank disrespected Sammy over a business deal. And that's when, uh, Sammy took him out. And after that, him and Gotti kind of teamed up to take out Paul Castellano, correct?

• 25:09Speaker 02

  So after that, um, hit my, um, Paul Castellano, um, was going through some stuff. What happened was Gotti's crew was being investigated for drugs. So it's a whole thing. That's like a code in the mafia. You cannot sell drugs because that now triggers DEA. It's a whole different.

• 25:27Bunnie XO?

  Wow, I never knew that.

• 25:29Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 25:30Bunnie XO?

  So, cause like movies glamorize mobsters as being drug dealers pretty much too.

• 25:35Speaker 02

  It's, it's a very big no-no in the mob. Like you're not supposed to be involved in that. So John Gotti's brother and, um, someone else in his crew got arrested for heroin trafficking. But the problem was, is when they got the bugs and the search warrants on Gotti's crew, one of the bugs picked up Angelo Ruggiero, who was John Gotti's right-hand man, talking about the mob. And he basically broke down the whole entire Cozino show. He explained it, who said who the boss was. He explained that there's five families. So the FBI had this on tape. And Paul Castellano was so infuriated that these tapes came out that he wanted them and Gotti kept refusing to turn them over. So by Gotti not turning them over, Paul's either gonna kill him or he's gonna, you know, shelf him,

• 26:20Speaker 02

  which means dismantle his whole crew. He's not gonna have any power in the mob. He would be shunned. So John had an incentive to wanna kill Paul Castellano. But he knew he couldn't do it without my father and Frankie DeChico because they were the true powerhouse hit teams in the mob. So, um. My father and Frankie at the time were going through their own separate thing with John because they felt that he was not trickling down the money, I mean with Paul. At the time Frankie DeChico, my father, were having their own issues with Paul because they felt he wasn't trickling the money down to his own family. Him and Chin, which was another boss of the Genovese family, were kinda getting rich up top and Paul wanted to be a businessman.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  So they were going through their own things and Angelo Ruggiero had reached out to my father and said, "Listen, we wanna take out Paul." And my father's like, "Who's we?" And he's like, "Me and John Gotti." And my father's like, "Well, why isn't John here talking to me? He's sending you." So it kind of like started then, but Frankie DeChico was like, "Sammy, listen. John has an ego. He's out there. He wants to be somebody."

• 27:30Bunnie XO?

  And he's always in the limelight, too.

• 27:32Speaker 02

  Yes, he's in the limelight, yes. So he said, "Let's take out Paul because it'd be beneficial for us and let John be the boss. He has an ego. We don't wanna go to war with him. We're gonna go to war with all the old timers and we're doing an unsanctioned hit. In the mafia, you have to get it sanctioned, which means you have to get the approvals of other families." So they just did the hit and um he was like, "We're gonna always have to watch our back. So let's let John do what he does and we'll be in the background. Six months from now, if we can't control him, we'll take him out." And six months from the time that they did the Castellano hit, Frankie DeChico, who was like a brother to my father, he got blown up in a car outside a cafe in Brooklyn.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  So while all this was going on, this is like, I'm seeing this. This is like, now it's really playing out. Like, I get it. My father's in the mob and this isn't just construction or, you know.

• 28:24Bunnie XO?

  How are you feeling though? That's gotta be like such a heavy, heavy feeling of like taking on like the father's, you know, responsibilities, I guess. Cause you know, as daughters, we kinda like,

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 28:34Bunnie XO?

  You know, it's like, we want our dad, we wanna praise our dads, but at the same time, it's like, was it cool to you that what he was doing or were you kind of like, "Oh my god," like, you know, this is, like, how did you feel?

• 28:45Speaker 02

  So when I was home and I rested my head on my pillow at night, I was nervous. I thought about him, you know, possibly getting killed. Like, there were, at that particular time, I mean, I hate to say it like this, but there were bodies dropping all over.

• 28:57Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 28:57Speaker 02

  So that was on my mind, but in the neighborhood that I grew up in, everybody loved it. I was looked at as the mafia princess. Oh, this Sammy's daughter. Oh, don't worry. You don't have to pay a tab. Oh, you wanna get um rims on your car? Don't worry. I have to take care like, you know, I was.

• 29:13Bunnie XO?

  Right. So it was like a catch twenty two.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  It was a catch twenty two. And I always say this, in Brooklyn and Staten Island, in the eighties and nineties and that whole era, it was like being Sammy the Bull and John Gotti was bigger than being Brad Pitt in Hollywood, like the respect.

• 29:29Bunnie XO?

  They're notorious.

• 29:30Speaker 02

  Yes. And it and it's not just coming from like old women. And that's the thing about the mob, but it's so family oriented and it brings it back to Kozanosha, right? It's this thing of ours and how they protect the families in the communities, like old ladies would be like, Sammy, how are you? I bought you this. So I'm like, how could he be such a bad guy and get so much respect?

• 29:51Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  And it's not just fear, because I've seen times where people fear him, but it was truly genuine love and respect.

• 29:58Bunnie XO?

  I feel like your dad only a- acted out when he had to, when it was like survival of the fittest.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:06Bunnie XO?

  I don't feel like he just went around capping people for no reason, you know?

• 30:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 30:12Bunnie XO?

  No, like he wasn't just doing drive bys and shit, you know?

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Absolutely not. That is something that the mob don't do. You know, it's rules and regulations, and if you violate those rules and regulations, that you know, you die. That's and that's an oath that all those men take and they understand. And like, my father will even say it till today, like, so be it, you know, if that's my faith, then that's what I signed up for.

• 30:33Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  I mean, he's was actually a very good hitman, so.

• 30:37Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  It's crazy to say, but he was actually, so he knows that. I mean, there was a hit that came to Arizona for us.

• 30:43Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 30:44Speaker 02

  And they they were seconds away. And then simultaneously, we were being followed by the Phoenix P D. And we were under an investigation for being a drug cartel.

• 30:54Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, we're gonna get to that. We're gonna get to that.

• 30:56Speaker 02

  But there wasn't, there was a hit put on us and they did come to Arizona.

• 30:59Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, there's so much. There's so many layers. Okay, so I, tell me about the time that your dad pulled a gun on you for sneaking out.

• 31:07Speaker 02

  So um as kids like we always would sneak out and like go hang out at the schoolyard. Cause all the other, you know, everybody had, they could be out to whatever hours, but us, we had, we had to be home. And um my father built me a beautiful house there. He made my bedroom upstairs. I had my own bathroom, a sitting area just because he wanted my friends to come over, be comfortable, but you're not gonna be in the schoolyard. But he didn't stop us. We were out every night. And um one night, Ramona and her sister, we went to the schoolyard. We were coming home. And as we would climb up the roof and go into my bedroom, it would enter into the bathroom of my bedroom and then go into the room.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  And as soon as like we all climbed through the bathroom window and I opened the door and my father was standing right there with a gun and I was like, I don't know why, but I remember it so clearly. I'm like, dad, hi. And I had my hands up like, and he's still holding the gun. And I'm like, I just went to Miggy's. Do you want a sandwich? Miggy's is like a deli down the block from my house. I'm like, do you want a sandwich? And he just, he looked at me and he said, do you see this? And I'm like, mhm. He's like, do you know how close you just came to getting killed? I'm like, mhm. And he just slammed the door in my face.

• 32:19Bunnie XO?

  He was probably so furious because he had to pull, he accidentally pulled a gun on his daughter. You know, could you, could you imagine the trauma that, I mean, your trauma also, but the trauma that your dad has from all the shit he's been through?

• 32:32Speaker 02

  So in retrospect, now going back, it's like they were dropping bodies left and right. So he doesn't know and he sees, hears people running up on the roof. He could have accidentally killed me. And my, that's what my mother said.

• 32:42Bunnie XO?

  Just from sneaking out.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. My mother was like, your father's so upset. He almost killed you. But thank God he didn't.

• 32:48Bunnie XO?

  I'm totally glad that uh you're still here, baby.

• 32:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, me too.

• 32:52Bunnie XO?

  So moving on from the Castellano hit, um I'm just trying to paint a picture here of all the shit that you've had to go through with your family so that people can really wrap their head around it and my listeners can. Um, you know, Gotti started bringing too much attention and your dad started disagreeing with it. The FBI built a case. And then your dad had to go on the lam for a little bit?

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:15Bunnie XO?

  Can we dive into that? Like, how does that make you feel as a daughter, knowing that your dad has to go into hiding because, you know?

• 33:21Speaker 02

  So um.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  I remember it too, my cousin had a confirmation party. We were all there and I was having a good time. And um, my father said, when we go home, I have to talk to you guys. And I remember driving home in the car, I said, go upstairs, get dressed, you know, get changed out of your clothes and come back down. And I came downstairs and he's like, I'm gonna go away. And I'm like, you're going to jail, you're going, he's like, no, I'm gonna go away, he's like, I want you to know that I'm gonna be okay. But I can't have any communication with you guys for a while. And um, if you need anything, you know, ask Big Louis.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  Your Uncle Eddie, like, you can pass messages, but I can't talk to you and, you know. And I'm like, okay, he's like, you may hear things, I might be dead. Just know if you need to hear anything or you want to pass the message to me, you know, go through your uncle. And it was just so weird because there was probably so many things racing through my head, like, but I didn't ask, like, it's just Nobody never told me, everyone asked me, like, you didn't ask questions, your mother didn't ask, no, we were just very calm, it was like we were going through the motions and this is what

• 34:25Bunnie XO?

  It was normal for you. It was normal chaos. That's traumatic, Karen.

• 34:31Speaker 02

  So he um, he left because they got a tip that the Gotti indictment was coming down and my father was gonna be pulled in and John felt that if my father left, they wouldn't be able to indict them, it would screw up the case, but I think he also maybe subconsciously knew, maybe he talked too much and that those tapes were a lot of him talking about my father, I don't know, he's not here to speak on it, but he just felt that my father being gone would be able to screw up the indictment. So my father went on the lam um, for a couple of months or whatever, I don't remember exactly how long it was and he just said it was just too much, like, he couldn't communicate, they were following us, like, literally, I was going to school.

• 35:14Bunnie XO?

  Who's they?

• 35:15Speaker 02

  The FBI. So I was going to school and I'd turn and like, there'd be the FBI, it was like to the point where I'd be like, oh, hey. Like, you guys want coffee or anything?

• 35:24Bunnie XO?

  Did you ever become friendly with any of the FBI agents because they were just following you so much?

• 35:30Bunnie XO?

  Or cordial, not friendly, but cordial.

• 35:32Speaker 02

  No, I would see them. No, and actually, there was a time where they, they like kidnapped me and brought me to Quantico, which was FBI headquarters when my father did cooperate. Um, and I was like, I hope we all die in this plane. My mother's like, just shut up. I was a typical teenager, but I thought like if, it got to the point where I almost thought like if I died, my father wouldn't cooperate. That's how bad I didn't want him to do it. Like, that's how much I didn't understand. And I literally would be like, if something just happens to us, especially me, he won't go through with it. And I found out later through, um, George Gabriel actually was an FBI agent who did an interview and I was watching it on TV and he said, Sammy almost stopped his whole deal because of Karen. And I didn't know that because I was so against it.

• 36:17Speaker 02

  And I like really couldn't like fathom that even happening. It's still something that I struggle with today. It took me a long time to be able to get to understand. Um,

• 36:29Bunnie XO?

  and for those at home that are listening, why, why was it so hard for you to understand and why, you know, I, I understand why, but you know, maybe people who haven't ever really known about the mafia lifestyle.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Rattling is the ultimate betrayal.

• 36:43Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Right? You, that's, you should, you should die before you rat. And that's what, you know, even my brother and me would have fights in the house and we'd get in trouble for telling on each other. Like, that's how serious it was. Um, so my father, to do that, I couldn't understand because that's so not who he was. You know, he faced murder trials before. I didn't, you know, and he later told me and if you ever sat down with him, he'll tell you the same thing. He struggles with it. Maybe he should have killed John in jail. And I believed that for a long time.

• 37:15Bunnie XO?

  Would he still be in prison had he not?

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:18Bunnie XO?

  He would have got life.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  And it wasn't even about life. I think my father at that point was the betrayal. He couldn't, he couldn't just take it.

• 37:26Bunnie XO?

  He was hurt and he felt disrespected.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 37:29Bunnie XO?

  So let's circle back to that. Your dad, when you, how did you find out that your dad was going to? Cause we spoke about this earlier and, um, earlier on in the podcast was that, um, you know, Gotti was pretty much, you know, turning on your dad. And your dad kept warning him and was like, hey, man, this is not how it happened, trying to separate the trials and then, um, heard the tapes.

• 37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:52Bunnie XO?

  And then, you know, that's when your dad decided to do what he did. What, how did you learn about that?

• 37:59Speaker 02

  Um, so originally, my father was in jail for a year. He was gonna fight the case. You know, he was, but it became, the lawyers reached out to my father through my uncle and said, John's controlling the defense. He, the lawyer told him that John doesn't want the lawyer to be able to have a lawyer-client meeting without John being present. He wants to know everything that goes on. The lawyer also felt that if he didn't obey John's rules, John would kill him. And then the lawyer felt if he double-crossed my father, my father would kill him. So he was in a kind of like a catch too, um, and he, but he did tell my father. And, um, at the time, you know, John was like, well, these tapes, if you ever listen to the Gotti tapes,

• 38:43Speaker 02

  it's pretty much John saying, well, I lost control of Sammy the Bull. He killed this guy and took over this business. He killed this guy and took over that business. But my father is very loyal to Cozino, so he didn't kill anyone unless it came orders from the boss.

• 38:57Bunnie XO?

  So he was just trying to pass it off on him. So he didn't have to take full responsibility.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  He was in a conversation at the Ravenite Social Club in the apartment upstairs with Frankie LaCassio, who passed away. He was the third person that was arrested in that whole Gotti thing. And, um, he was ranting and raving about my father. And if you listen to the full tape, Frankie says Sammy's downstairs, John. He's not like that. If you have a problem with him, talk to him. Tell him to take it in, but he's right downstairs. I'm telling you, you're miss, you know. But John just kept over-talking him. And he's like, he's got construction. He killed DB. He killed this one, so.

• 39:34Bunnie XO?

  Do you think he was building the case with the feds because he knew that the room was locked?

• 39:40Speaker 02

  I, in my, when this first happened, I thought maybe, and I like to tell myself that because I was like, oh, he set my father up. I don't know. I just, I just believed that he, and so what, prior to that happening, um.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  The feds came to John Gotti and they told him there's a hit out.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Chin and Gaspipe, which are other very powerful mobsters, put a hit out because of the Castellano hit. So the feds told John they tipped him off. But Chin and Gaspipe actually came to my father and they said, John's too flashy. He's bringing attention to this lifestyle. We're gonna take him out and we want you to be the boss. My father shook hands with Gaspipe, who's a very notorious, powerful person.

• 40:27Bunnie XO?

  How does he get that nickname?

• 40:29Speaker 02

  I don't know. I would love to know that one.

• 40:32Bunnie XO?

  Who came up with that nickname?

• 40:34Speaker 02

  I know they have all these weird nicknames.

• 40:36Bunnie XO?

  That's wild.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  But, um, and he told Gas, we're on opposite ends in the war now. And he went directly to John and said, listen, there's a hit on you. The feds had just told him, so he's like, how do you know that? And he's like, they came to me, they want me to take you out and whatever, but let's strap up and let's just go to war with them. John didn't look at that as, this man is so loyal to me. He looked at it as jealousy and that my father could possibly have more power. So it kinda caused the rift. So what I believe in my heart was because of that, John was threatened by my father and his ego, so he was setting my father up to get killed because if my father could have been his rival, you know what I mean? It could have been the person that could have took over.

• 41:20Speaker 02

  He was the only other powerful one that could have taken him down. So, um, I believe that he was setting him up in that conversation and he was trying to get Frankie in that apartment that night while the FBI was recording it to agree with him that my father's greedy, we should kill him. But Frankie wasn't biting and he's saying Sammy's not like that, I'm telling you, he's loyal to you, just bring him up here. So, once they had that tape, that was the, the crumble of the Sammy the Bull, John Gotti relationship because, and the government was very strategic. They, um, played the tapes in court and then they locked them in the same cell. They had to go in. So of course, you know, my father's fuming, John's like, oh, I was just blowing off steam and my father's like, oh, blow.

• 42:06Speaker 02

  Going off steam, but now I'm facing a life sentence and now you're telling me I can't defend myself.

• 42:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 42:11Speaker 02

  Cause I'm indicted on murders because of you and this is known fact. You can go back and do all the research.

• 42:16Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  They have thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of surveillance and bugs that were put on my father and not one person was ever indicted. Nobody ever got in trouble, nor has he ever bad mouthed John. So that was, and I think, you know, John knew at that point.

• 42:32Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  My father like, and my father said, I did plan on killing him. I was gonna wait until we got out and.

• 42:38Bunnie XO?

  I love your dad. It's like, you know, I was just gonna take him out.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  So, um, initially he thought of doing it in jail and I think he's like, you know, I asked him, I'm like, why? I mean, why don't you just stay true to who you were? Like that's, why don't you just kill him? And he just said, I just broke. Like honestly, I just felt betrayed by a brother. I just, I started thinking of the life. Like my mother's brother was killed because of that lifestyle, everything that has happened and you know, just seeing everything. He was like, I was just done. I just threw in the towel and that was my way out, you know?

• 43:11Bunnie XO?

  So how did you feel when your dad sat you down and, you know, told you, you, you said, you talked about being on the plane? And like saying that you hope the plane went down and stuff like that. But did you ever tell your dad how you felt?

• 43:22Speaker 02

  So originally before they even took me on the plane, um, it was about a week before the news came out that he was gonna flip. Mind you, I'm nineteen years old at this time.

• 43:31Bunnie XO?

  And you don't know all the details.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  I have no idea. Like I'm just finding this out. The things that I believed in my head, I'm starting to read in the newspaper. But me and my father never had a conversation.

• 43:40Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Even him being in jail, it was more like, hey, how you doing? Like, you know, we never talked about criminal stuff or anything, his case. We were just there to visit him. So he calls me up to the MCC for a visit and he comes out and I just, his whole demeanor was just different. My father's like, the world can be crumbling down. He's like, we got this. We're gonna stand tall. We're gonna be together. And, um, he came out and he just looked me in the eyes and he said, I'm gonna do something that goes against everything that I've believed in. And everything that I've ever taught you to believe in. And when he said that, I just knew like, but I was like, there's no way he's gonna tell me this right now. He said, I'm gonna cooperate. Great with the government and I said you're gonna rat and my uncle was there and my uncle was actually the one that told my father that he should do this, brought the messages from the lawyer.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  And um, my father had a lot of money out on the streets and he was the one that was gonna go collect all the money. And my uncle, I have all cousins there, we were all gonna leave together as a family. And I remember saying, you're gonna rat and my father, I think was like taken back. He just looked at me and my uncle goes, watch your mouth. And my father's like, no, let her talk. And I said, this is what you're gonna do, you're gonna leave me and mommy and whatever. And he's like, you're not gonna understand, maybe someday you will, but you don't understand this life. And I'm like, no, I don't understand this and I never will. And I got up. And when I got up, I started walking to the door. And um, I came, sat back down. It was short-lived, um, the visit. We left and

• 45:05Speaker 02

  we were driving back to Staten Island and picture like I'm this mob princess. I go visit my father in jail, whatever. And in my head, I'm like, the only thing I can think of like, every, who, everyone's gonna turn on me. Like what's gonna happen? Are we gonna get killed? Like Ramona, who is I'm with every single day till today. You know, her family's in that lifestyle, like who, who do I trust? And my uncle, I get to the house, it's, you know, maybe a forty-five minute drive and my mother gets out of the car and my uncle goes, come here, let me tell you something. I said, why? He goes, you can never say whatever happened in that room. They'll kill you. They'll kill your mother. They'll kill your brother. I'm like, I don't even care. And he said, no, you should care. Even if you don't care about yourself, I'm nineteen, remember? This is like, Yeah.

• 45:49Speaker 02

  It's like, care about your brother, care about your mother. You can't say that. You don't understand this life. So of course I don't want anything to happen to anyone, you know, I go in the house. And as soon as we walked in, my mother said, listen, I said, I'll never go in the witness protection program. I will never go with you guys. And she said, I will never go. I will stand here with you. You know, so we're, we're together. It's me, you and your brother. So um, as that happened, I know you're gonna make a crack to it, but as that happened, I was like, you know, that whole week, I'm like, I'm not going, like, there's no way. And she's like, you don't have to, we're here. That's it. That's all you had to say. And she told my father, we're not going with you. That's it. It's done. I was never part of your mob

• 46:29Speaker 02

  decisions when you did stuff in the street and I'm not gonna be part of this now. I'm gonna raise my kids and I'm gonna stand on my own. My father's like, you have a ton of money, you know, just whatever. The next, I guess my father called it off, like he told them the government, like, I don't care, I'm not doing it. They're like, you can't go back into MCC now, they're gonna kill you, he's like, I don't care. So, the government now says, we have to get Karen here. I'm a nineteen year old, I didn't know I was this instrumental in this, and if I would have known, I would have, trust me, I would have probably stopped it, but I didn't know what was happening at the time. So, um, I guess my mother agreed to, he said, I wanna see her one time, so she agreed, and I went to the

• 47:09Bunnie XO?

  You're your dad's heart.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I went to the Woodbridge Mall, and all of a sudden, I go to get out of the car, and here come these agents. And they're like, hi Karen, I'm like, I thought it was it, I thought I was getting kidnapped, I was taken, that's it, I'm going, I'm like

• 47:22Bunnie XO?

  I don't know how you don't have post-traumatic stress disorder, do you have PTSD?

• 47:26Speaker 02

  So, no, I, I really don't, my brother deals with some stuff, like, he does, he has some, you know, he has more stuff about what happened in Arizona, cuz he holds a lot of guilt.

• 47:35Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  About the whole ecstasy thing, and the whole family getting arrested, and that's really where we lost everything.

• 47:39Bunnie XO?

  We're gonna get to that, too.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. So

• 47:42Bunnie XO?

  The agents came.

• 47:43Speaker 02

  So, the agents came, they took us on a plane.

• 47:46Bunnie XO?

  No, no, no, the agents came to the mall, cuz your dad wanted to see you

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:49Bunnie XO?

  One last time, oh, and that's when they took you on the plane?

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Yes, they took us, I agreed to get in the car, I was like, just one time, so I got in the car.

• 47:56Bunnie XO?

  Take you and leave your shit where it's at?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Well, they took us, we pulled up, and we got in the car, and we went into like a private jet, and they took us to Quantico, which is like FBI headquarters. And it's just kinda like cliche, cuz when we got there, they had like cannolis, and Italian bread, and mozzarella, and I'm like, what is this? Italian feasts, and my father's like, yeah, they overdid it, they were like trying to make you happy, like, whatever, I guess. So, they have this whole Italian feast out, and he's like What do you want? And I said, I wanna know the truth, like, why are you doing this? And we sat there for hours and he explained it, and still I didn't really comprehend it. And he's like, but you don't have to come, and he's like, I'm always gonna love you and I'm always gonna be here. And I'm like, I'll always love you too, but I'm not going in the witness protection program. Like, we agreed to love each other, but I wasn't.

• 48:44Speaker 02

  And um, I was like, okay, so, he's like, I'm just gonna let you know that some things are gonna come out. And I'm like, okay, like, what?

• 48:51Bunnie XO?

  You're like,

• 48:53Speaker 02

  Like murder. And I was like, okay. He's like, yeah, I was involved in murder, and I'm like, That man when I was a kid and you left the house, the nightclub, he's like, And Paul Castellano, he's like, And like seventeen other ones. I'm like seventeen? I didn't really, I mean, I'm not laughing, cuz,

• 49:11Bunnie XO?

  No, you have to laugh through the trauma.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  I was like, I didn't think it was gonna be that much.

• 49:16Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  And um, You know, there was a murder that was involved, my my mother's brother. So we, as a family, have to accept that and understand. And it made me have to really dig deep inside. I couldn't be angry at just one murder, when there was all these others, and like, what is this lifestyle?

• 49:32Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  So, from the time I left that visit, And then I get home, right, so we leave that visit, and the news broke that he was gonna cooperate. We're driving, and it wasn't supposed to break yet, and it's literally on ten ten news and all, I'm like, Every station, like, The underboss, the most powerful organized crime family cooperated, I'm like, no, change the station, I'm like, We get to the house, and the whole house is surrounded by news media, and I'm like, We go inside, and of course, my father's people come over. And my uncle, who was in that conversation, is like, There with them, and he's playing this whole role, like, he wasn't involved, and None of us knew, you know, that that conversation, he's acting like, never took place. And they're like, we're gonna give you cyanide.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  And you're gonna go take this to your father, and you're gonna tell him to take himself out. They don't know that I just came from visiting him, so I'm like,

• 50:23Bunnie XO?

  They're telling you this?

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:24Bunnie XO?

  That is so hurtful and traumatic to say that to somebody's daughter.

• 50:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, That's the fact, my father had called, I just started crying, I'm like, you have to take yourself out, you can't do this, you can't. And he said that he knew where it was coming from, cuz I'm, he's like, who's there, I'm like, John Gotti Junior, Uncle Eddie, this one, that one. He said, I hung the phone up and I just said, what did I do? Like here's my family in a house with people that are just, she trusted them like a day ago. Like these were people that would die for her and now they're telling her to go kill her father. Like it's just, he said, what did I fucking do? And he said, I hung the phone up. He said, I looked at myself in the mirror. He goes, it was my weakest moment. But I said, Sammy, you have to go all the way now.

• 51:09Speaker 02

  You know, and that's when he, he did it. He, you know, the feds came and I mean, the rest is history of the trial. The whole nine, but it was crazy. Um.

• 51:19Speaker 03

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• 51:49Bunnie XO?

  During all this, how is Karen feeling? Are you angry? Are you sad?

• 51:54Speaker 02

  I'm so angry.

• 51:55Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  And everybody like is what I thought. So here's all my, nobody was, they were told, you're not allowed to go to her house. She's not allowed here. I'm nineteen, so I was shunned. So what do I want to do? I want to act out and I want to be bad.

• 52:09Bunnie XO?

  That's how I am.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Because if I'm bad, maybe these people will accept me again and they won't think what my father did. So what did I do? Sold drugs, dated bad boys, home invasions. Like it was just, it was a bunch of stuff that was out of my character. But I just acted so like, yeah.

• 52:28Bunnie XO?

  You were traumatized and you were, you, you had a voice, but you didn't really have a choice, you know? So it was like you. Just went balls to the wall. Like acted out of rebellion. I mean rightfully so because you, you know, you didn't ask for all this.

• 52:45Speaker 02

  No. And it was the other, you know, even people like I didn't trust anybody Italian like to be around them.

• 52:51Bunnie XO?

  Were you scared to death to like go anywhere or like, did you ever feel like somebody was gonna take you out because of everything that had happened?

• 52:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did. Especially when the hit came and they, you know, the government came and told my father there was a hit. My brother was fifteen or sixteen years old, you know? So, but my outlet was, well, first of all, I would hang out. I went to like a whole other, then I started hanging out with gangs in Coney Island. It was, you know, I stayed away from Italians. I really positioned myself. I was like, no more mob. Now I'm into drugs.

• 53:23Bunnie XO?

  You're like, no more mobsters. I'm just gonna go to drug lords.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I always thought about it, but it's just I couldn't, you know, I, I lived my life, took some ecstasy, went to clubs.

• 53:38Bunnie XO?

  Got to have kind of a childhood and you know, just learn from your mistakes. So when did you decide to go back out to Arizona? To reunite with your dad? Is that what happened?

• 53:49Speaker 02

  So my father had, um, I was here and I had a weed service and things started getting crazy. But that was a whole other thing. People were getting robbed, shootings, this, that was like.

• 54:00Bunnie XO?

  Well, this is before weed was legal too, right? How did you have a fucking weed?

• 54:06Bunnie XO?

  Everywhere now too. Like you were like before your time.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we, I mean, we, I can sit here and ramble off every person we delivered to, but I'm talking like not even rappers, actresses, models, there was lawyers. And you know, judges, like it was just crazy. So, but it started escalating and I remember one time I went to the Source magazine. And my, um, my dealer name was Gina. I would go in and act, and this is before my father was in the newspaper, mind you, all the time, but I would just go by a whole other name. So I was talking to the guy and.

• 54:41Bunnie XO?

  What was your other name that you would? Gina, okay, gotcha.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  So I'm talking to this guy who believed my name was Gina. This, I used to, you know, sell him weed for like months and he worked at the Source magazine. And he used to give us tickets to events and so he says, hey, what are you gonna do tonight? And I go. Um, I don't know, probably nothing. He's like, well, here Karen, here's some tickets. So I go, oh, thank you. And I caught it, but I was like, wait, did he say, but I was like, did he say Karen? Did he not say Karen? Whatever. So. I get up and I go to leave and he's like, all right, Miss Gravano, I'll see you later. So I stop and I look and he goes. Everyone knows who you are. He's like, your father's in the newspaper every day. He's like, and I heard a situation happen at a club. Where you guys were involved and there was like some mess happen. He goes, listen, if some shit goes down. You're gonna be the full, you know, the full guy or the full girl.

• 55:29Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  It's gonna be a problem. He's like, you seem so different, like intelligent and stuff. Why don't you just like. Do something legitimate. And I'm like. Why don't I? Because I could, right? Like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm like, why didn't, why am I doing this? And.

• 55:45Bunnie XO?

  Isn't that crazy? How you could be like, living a certain lifestyle and one person can say something to you?

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:50Bunnie XO?

  And you're just like. It's like an epiphany, like a light bulb goes off and you're like, you know what? Motherfucker, you're right.

• 55:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, um, I'm like, let me go to Arizona. I wanna go to skin school. I'm gonna start something totally different. And my father had. Just gotten out of prison and.

• 56:06Bunnie XO?

  Had you talked to your dad in between here? Did he know?

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, he didn't know all this stuff that was happening, like that I was doing. But, um, he would get bit bits and. Actually, while I was with Lee, we were living in the house.

• 56:21Speaker 02

  He said the FBI came one day and they're like, listen, your daughter's gonna have a big problem. They're about to raid her house. And he's like. For what? And he's like, bank robbery. And he's like, well, at least she graduated from petty larceny. My father's a jokester, but, um. It was, it was starting to ask, like, he kinda knew, like, I was rebelling and doing stuff, so. When it came out. We just had like a, like a coming. To like. Life moment and we had a whole conversation. He described everything like. And really got into detail and he's like, I just want a different life for you guys, you know? I just want you to. Have kids and never have to look over your shoulder. And you know, we had that whole conversation and I agreed to come to Arizona. And I was pregnant when I came, when I came back.

• 57:05Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, how old are you?

• 57:07Speaker 02

  Twenty six when I got pregnant, I was like around there.

• 57:10Bunnie XO?

  And Lee is not the father?

• 57:11Speaker 02

  No.

• 57:12Bunnie XO?

  Okay.

• 57:12Speaker 02

  Thank God.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  He is not the father.

• 57:15Bunnie XO?

  He is not the father.

• 57:17Speaker 02

  No, uh-uh.

• 57:18Bunnie XO?

  Uh, okay, do you want to talk about your baby daddy?

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, I met Karina's father, um, so that was a whole other thing, cuz my daughter's biracial. So her dad is black Cuban and Puerto Rican and, um,

• 57:33Speaker 02

  that was for me, like, after everything that happened, I just wasn't attracted to Italian men anymore. I just, I just didn't know who to trust.

• 57:40Bunnie XO?

  Rightfully so.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just was like.

• 57:42Bunnie XO?

  You've been through some shit, girl.

• 57:44Speaker 02

  So when I had met her dad, it was like, you know, he's it. He was, you know, it was, her dad's a great guy. We're like the best of friends now still. And, um, yeah, when I, I didn't know how that was gonna be. My father, like, you know, in the lifestyle that I grew up in, it's usually like you date, your family meets the, the person and here I am, pregnant.

• 58:06Bunnie XO?

  Where'd you meet him? Where'd you meet him up?

• 58:08Speaker 02

  I met him at the China Club in New York City.

• 58:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  He was actually with, um, Jam Master J, which is from like Run DMC. And I was doing my-

• 58:16Bunnie XO?

  As OGs know.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I was doing my weed thing and, um, I see them all come in and my Jennifer's like, they look like they smoke weed. So I walk over and I like give them some weed. I'm like, hey, if you want more of that, hit me up. He's like, like Gina, my name, my number's on the card.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  So for like the first two weeks-

• 58:37Bunnie XO?

  I'm only calling you Gina from now on.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  The first two weeks that we kinda, um, dated, he thought I was Gina, like, so.

• 58:44Bunnie XO?

  So he had no idea who you were?

• 58:46Speaker 02

  No, cuz like, back then, even when it was like Sammy the Bull, like-

• 58:51Bunnie XO?

  The name was more notorious than the face.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  The face, it wasn't. So, um. I, and especially like in Staten Island, everyone knew who I was, but here I'm going all the way to like Queens and I like, it's like a world away now. But, um. He, so I had gone and it was my father was on the front page of the newspaper and I'm like in the deli. And he's like picking it up and he's reading it and stuff. And we get in the car, he has the newspaper sitting right there, he's looking, and I'm like. I have something to tell you and he's like, well, I'm like. My name's not Gina and he's like. Who are you then? And then he's like, and he's laughing. I'm like, no, it's really not Gina. And he's like, well, what's your name then? I'm like. Karen and he's like, so why would you tell me Gina? I'm like, I pulled the paper over. I'm like. That's my dad.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  He's like. Okay. It was funny.

• 59:42Bunnie XO?

  Was he bothered by it at all?

• 59:44Speaker 02

  No, but I think he was just in shock, you know, like the, the whole. But no, he was just like, whatever, it is what it is. Yeah.

• 59:51Bunnie XO?

  I love that.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:52Bunnie XO?

  You deserve that.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  So, um, yeah, then Dave and I moved to Arizona.

• 59:56Bunnie XO?

  Dave.

• 59:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:58Bunnie XO?

  That's Karina's dad. Okay, awesome.

• 1:00:00Speaker 02

  We moved to Arizona and we rekindled my father where.

• 1:00:05Bunnie XO?

  What was that like seeing your dad after not seeing him for so long?

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  It was just like, we didn't miss a beat and my father's such like a businessman, like he's like a hustler. So I always admired that about him and I think that I took that away. As well, excuse me, but I feel like he, um. Was already in, he had a pool company. He was already doing construction. He was building apartment complexes. So I'm like, okay, I kind of stepped right.

• 1:00:30Bunnie XO?

  In Arizona.

• 1:00:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, he already started. All that. So when I had come out, um. That's what we were all getting into. He had a construction office and, um.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  My cousin's boyfriend started dabbling around with ecstasy and of

• 1:00:47Bunnie XO?

  Ecstasy was huge back then.

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:49Bunnie XO?

  It was a, it was like the drug of choice. Yeah.

• 1:00:52Speaker 02

  So you know, here I go is I know people in New York where you can get it from.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  And it kind of just took on, it was like. They had an investigation going on prior to the people who we dealt with. They were watching them. But when we kind of stepped in, it was a two month investigation.

• 1:01:08Bunnie XO?

  Because.

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  They realized who my brother was and whom my father was. They were able to make a case real quick. Um, they didn't have anything on my father. Really, but they had on my brother and.

• 1:01:20Bunnie XO?

  I feel like your dad is so smart, like he never like gets shit pinned on him unless it's other people.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:01:26Bunnie XO?

  Getting him caught up.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  That's exactly what happened. So when they um. They arrested all of us, it which is kind of crazy. And I learned a lot about the legal system. That's why I'm so into like prison reform now and stuff. But they created this case and they called it a universal case, which means they arrested my mother because they said she was the bankroller because there was money kept in her house. My father, who they said was the boss. My daughter's father, who was the runner. Me, I was the go between where I and my, you know, between Dave and my brother and my brother was the muscle out there that really brought it all in. So they had a lot of evidence on my brother. And my father's like, fuck it. I'm going to trial. They don't have nothing.

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  Even me, I had nothing. I'm literally charged with illegal use of an electronic communication and a drug transaction.

• 1:02:14Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  That I never had a crime before that. So I would have got a slap on the hand, but because my father's Sammy the Bull. We were all facing major time. They um. Did all this forfeiture, which is like if they go in and say it's ill gotten gains. We now have to prove which they knew. Yeah, which they knew where we got it. I mean, my father, when he left New York after the whole. Mob thing or whatever. He had millions of dollars.

• 1:02:40Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  You know, we had houses, cars, restaurants, but they took it all. And they took my father and they basically had everyone saying that Sammy was the boss. Meanwhile, he was bringing these kids in. The kid that my brother was dealing with. He came to my father like, listen, I sold drugs or whatever. I I got some money. I want to become legit. So my father brought him into the pool company, but they were still hustling and doing whatever and. You know, you're guilty by association. My father had the name and it makes careers like Janet Napolitano became the. Governor of Arizona after that. Then she went on to become the homeland security, the head of homeland security.

• 1:03:16Bunnie XO?

  Because she took down Sammy the Bull.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:03:19Bunnie XO?

  It's crazy.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  The whole case in Arizona, pretty much, they were like, listen, Sammy, you're an embarrassment. You got six years for nineteen murders and now you're out here selling ecstasy with your kids. We don't care what your involvement is. You take the fall because we have to redeem ourselves and that's pretty much what happened in Arizona. Um, you know, a little bit more uncomplicated, but it's pretty much the gist of it.

• 1:03:41Bunnie XO?

  In a nutshell.

• 1:03:42Speaker 02

  And my brother went to jail for nine and a half years. My daughter's father went to jail for nine and a half years. And you know, me and my mother stayed home and raised the kids, but.

• 1:03:50Bunnie XO?

  Dad, how long did dad go away for?

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Eighteen years. Eighteen years for that. Like they just, you know.

• 1:03:56Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  Threw the book at him, which anyone would never got that, but. Here we are, you know, I mean, we.

• 1:04:03Bunnie XO?

  So what do you do after your brother's in jail, your dad's in jail and you are left at home? And baby daddy's in jail and you are left at home with your mom to literally pick up the pieces with nothing left. Like they took, they wiped you guys out.

• 1:04:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:19Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  Thank God I went to school to become an esthetician. And then I also, well, at the time I was, who's gonna hire me, right? So my friend is like, she was dancing at the strip club, Christie's Cabaret. She's like, come into the club. I'm like, girl, I just had a kid. I'm fat. I'm chubby. There's no way I can dance. Or she goes.

• 1:04:38Bunnie XO?

  Beautiful face.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  Thank you. She goes, no, well, maybe you can come in and be a house mom. I'm like, she's like, just come in. We'll figure something out. There's money there. So I come in and I meet Warren, who's like. Amazing. He's very big in that industry or whatever. He's like, come here sweetheart, let's talk. And I go in the room and I'm like, just like, I came from New York and the hustle is like men are hustlers out there, right? And it's more organized crime, drugs, this. I walked into a whole world that was like,

• 1:05:05Bunnie XO?

  Women are the hustlers.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  Women and costumes and I was like, what's happening here?

• 1:05:10Bunnie XO?

  You're like, honey, I'm home.

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, literally. So he takes me in the office and he's like, listen, I know your story. I know everything. I'm like, Yeah, I just want to be low key. He goes, well, I could hire you for the house mom. He's like, but I can't fire her right now. It'll be a transition. What do you do? I said, well, I know how to do skincare and stuff. He goes, What about makeup? I'm like, kinda? It's like, good. You're the new makeup artist. He goes, you're gonna come in here and you're gonna, I'll never forget this. He was like, you're gonna make these women need you. And I looked at him and he goes, They're gonna like you, but when they need you, you'll make money. I'm like, what does he mean by that? It took me a long time. Cause I actually did go from the, the makeup artist to being the house mom. And I learned the whole flow of the club and how

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  from the minute someone walks in that has money to like calling the girls and the girls that don't tip stay longer on stage. And I kinda like ran all that. I, cause I am, it's in my nature. And I, I killed it. And it was that's, I started working in the strip club. And when mob wives came calling, that's where I was working. We were actually gonna try to film there and stuff, but everyone was like, no. We don't want cameras here. So, um, Yeah, it, it's crazy. I went, and it's, it's just honestly, the whole East Coast is so different from the West Coast.

• 1:06:31Bunnie XO?

  Oh, for sure. I grew up on the West Coast.

• 1:06:34Speaker 02

  And you'd think, cause you're coming from the East Coast, we're so fast and slick and like, we could talk circles around you guys and nobody.

• 1:06:42Bunnie XO?

  We were hustlers. I grew up in that industry. So I mean, I know nothing but women who get money.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:48Bunnie XO?

  You know, and it's just a different mindset.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:50Bunnie XO?

  I feel like just west coast women are just trained to go, you know?

• 1:06:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:54Bunnie XO?

  Like from get, you're just trained to go.

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  And some of my best friends are still from there. I remember when I first went into the club, the girls like, she's one of my best friends. She was like, yeah, girl. Don't worry, I got your back. She had just come back from the bunny ranch and I'm like, this is, she's like, yeah, I caught a case. I had to go out there and make ten racks real quick. And I'm like,

• 1:07:13Bunnie XO?

  That's a different life. I never did the bunny ranch. That's a different lifestyle. Those girls out there, those girls out there are just savages. Like I have the most respect for them because that's a whole different lifestyle. I couldn't, too many rules. I'm like a renegade.

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  And I think for me, the biggest thing that, why I wrote my book, that was like, that's my baby. Like Mob Wives was just, but my book was,

• 1:07:34Bunnie XO?

  What's the name of your book?

• 1:07:35Speaker 02

  It was called Mob Daughter.

• 1:07:37Bunnie XO?

  Okay.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  It was a New York Times bestseller.

• 1:07:39Bunnie XO?

  Yes, baby.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  I was very proud of it, but for me, um, I just came to terms with everything in my life, like who I am. You have to be responsible for your own choices. Like, I think I blamed my father and then I was mad at this and just the way I acted out and it just, everybody goes through those emotions. But once you can kind of like finally sit down and internalize who you are, it like, that's when I was just like, okay. And I hate people that judge other people.

• 1:08:05Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  So my whole life I've been judged. Oh, Sammy's daughter, she can't come. Don't put her on the show or, you know, she did this or she said this on the show or she worked in a strip club. Or it's like, when I, when I finally came out on the reality show and I sat back one day and I'm like, look at all these people on social media that, sitting here just judging other people. They must be such,

• 1:08:25Bunnie XO?

  That's all they do.

• 1:08:26Speaker 02

  Really lonely people in their lives, miserable. And, um, it's just every day just made me come back stronger. And that's just, you know, I wound up, I'm getting a deal at, after Mob Wives, I got a deal with the network. So I produced a show called Families of the Mafia. We did two seasons. They were going to come back for a third season, but my daughter is like, if you fucking associate me as a mob kid one more time. Cause my daughter is a hustler in her own right. And she works in finance.

• 1:08:54Bunnie XO?

  Isn't that crazy how it comes around full circle?

• 1:08:56Speaker 02

  She's like, I don't want to be known as this mob grandkid. What are you gonna be like? My kids, kids, kids are gonna be like the mom. So my great, great, great grandfather will be still doing shows. Um, so we decided not to go with the third season. But I actually am working on a scripted show with them, so.

• 1:09:12Bunnie XO?

  I'm excited for you. Have you ever gone to therapy?

• 1:09:16Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:09:17Bunnie XO?

  You have never gone to therapy after all you've been through, girl. You are a tough cookie dude. Holy shit. And to be so well-rounded.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:09:25Bunnie XO?

  And like, do you suffer from anxiety or anything like that?

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  My daughter does, because my daughter was actually in the house when they arrested her father, when later on he got rearrested.

• 1:09:36Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:36Speaker 02

  And I think that, and she was also in the house when they arrested us. She was a baby. And I don't think she could remember it, but I don't know if it trapped. She's always had anxiety as a kid. And I'm like her, her Xanax, like she calls me like, I always keep my phone close because when she needs, she'll like, what are you doing? I'm here. Okay, bye. She's, she just has to hear my voice.

• 1:09:54Bunnie XO?

  Do you ever feel like all of that's gonna catch up to you one day, like mentally and emotionally? Or do you just always feel like you've always had to be the rock?

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  I feel like I always had to be the rock, like, and I'm not just saying this because you're here. Remember I had told you? So my brother, I think he's, he, everything that happened with the whole ecstasy thing, I think he holds a lot of guilt. So he comes out of prison and he struggles with, you know, some mental health issues and like, just, just, you know, and then one day, like me and him, we were having a heart to heart and I'm like, I'm always the rock for that. And then I'm sleeping, it's three o'clock in the morning and he sends me the song and I'm like, I told you. And I'm like, I can't see it. I don't have my glasses and put, and I hear, somebody save me. And I'm like, what the fuck is this? And I'm listening and listening and in our, in New York, it's three hour difference. And, um,

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  I'm like calling him, I'm calling, I actually sent the song to my father. My father's like, yeah, I know Jelly Roll. What do you mean? He's like, I listen, I like the music.

• 1:10:55Bunnie XO?

  My husband's gonna love that Sammy the Bull knows who he is.

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  He's like, I love the music. So I'm like, no, but Gerard sent this to me and I'm like, and I, I, I know this is, I'm not just saying it because I'm having this conversation, but I listened to this song and it's like, I kind of internalized with it and I'm like, so when Gerard, when I finally got ahold of him, I'm like, are you okay? And he's like, no, he's like, I watched a documentary on this guy. You don't know about him? I'm like, no, I said, but could you have chose a different song? Like, I'm thinking something is like going on with you.

• 1:11:23Bunnie XO?

  Poor Karen.

• 1:11:24Speaker 02

  And um, he's like, no, whatever. So um, I watched the documentary. It was great, by the way, but um, I think sometimes people find people that they could relate to. And maybe for my brother, whatever he was going through, like, he just, I mean, he, he was like, no, I was just sending it to you because I liked it. I wanted you to see the documentary. I'm like, you could have put that in the thing.

• 1:11:42Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, next time, send the fucking text with the song.

• 1:11:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 1:11:46Bunnie XO?

  Send some context.

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  I feel like even me being able to express myself on the show or talk about it, maybe that was my therapy.

• 1:11:55Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Speaker 02

  You know, I think a lot of times being able to get it out where it's not like just your people, you could say it and other people can hear it. It's like you go through things and sometimes you don't, yeah.

• 1:12:05Bunnie XO?

  Writing books are therapeutic.

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  It was a huge therapy for me. You people, you know, you don't understand it, but when someone else is like, thank you, you know, I read your story. It was a struggle. I was going through a hard time. Might not be the same hard time I was going through or, you know, different situations. Um, and it, working in the strip club, I met a lot of girls and you know, I think for a big thing with me, it was like, I was so angry, but everybody has a story.

• 1:12:30Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  There's one that stands out in my head. This girl would work in there and she was beautiful and she would come in and just be like a bitch, right? I was like, I don't like her, like me and her once. And I had makeup out one day and she's just touching my stuff and I'm like, you, you know, I buy that, right? Like you have to tip for it. And she's like flings it down. I'm like, oh my God, me and this girl one day are gonna be rolling around the floor. So one day she's in the dressing room and um she's holding her head and I'm like what happened and she's like you feel this and it was like a big bump in the head anyway to make a long story short she told me that her father had raped her and then hit her in the head with a thing and it was just like and I got it at that moment I'm like that's why you're so angry

• 1:13:07Bunnie XO?

  Oh my gosh

• 1:13:08Speaker 02

  So everybody has a story and everybody goes through their stuff and sometimes just being able to sit down and talk about it you know

• 1:13:13Bunnie XO?

  Yeah absolutely can we talk about your dad's Instagram

• 1:13:20Bunnie XO?

  I just discovered the only reason why I discovered this is because Ramona told me about it

• 1:13:24Speaker 02

  Oh yeah

• 1:13:25Bunnie XO?

  And I went she thinks it's hilarious I went and looked at it yesterday he is fucking hilarious What the hell is dad doing over there

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  He's just having a ball

• 1:13:34Bunnie XO?

  Sammy the Bull is on Instagram

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  He's probably jealous I'm here with you now too

• 1:13:41Bunnie XO?

  Tell dad come on the show I would love to have him he did I just found out that he did um a podcast with our homie Brendan Schaub and we love Brendan so yeah tell him he's always welcome to come on the show

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  Yeah I'll tell him I love it

• 1:13:53Bunnie XO?

  Yeah I checked out his fucking Instagram and I was like this is fucking hilarious like what a crazy world we live in and different times we live in that he can have done everything that he did being an underboss and all this shit to being kind of like a comedian on social media like is that not crazy how our parents get older and get weirder

• 1:14:18Bunnie XO?

  My dad's so cool and so weird now I'm just like why couldn't you have been this guy back then you know

• 1:14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah my father has always been a jokester like he'll always make light and I remember when my whole family got arrested and we're in court and we're like going to take our pleas and I was just like blank like I forgot everything you know I'm like scared I get up there they're like how old are you and I'm like I couldn't even think how old I was so I looked back and my father goes don't lie now you're on toes and I'm like and the whole courtroom cracks up and I'm like he just always um but yes he's funny

• 1:14:48Bunnie XO?

  That is hilarious well what can we expect from you what can what's Karen got cooking in the kitchen man

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  So um I just opened a spa in Haslett New Jersey Body Depot we do body contouring facials and um remember I went to school as an esthetician back in the day so that has still stuck with me um literally like there I do the treatments I love it I love being there um and I'm also working in negotiations with Showtime right now for a show so

• 1:15:17Bunnie XO?

  You got that hustling spirit, girl. I love that about you. It's so admirable.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  I do wanna write a second book. I felt like, people have asked me, and I just wasn't at a place where I felt like significant things happen in my life, that I was, I felt like, you know, I wanna really.

• 1:15:33Bunnie XO?

  You were at a place where you felt like significant things haven't happened in your life?

• 1:15:37Speaker 02

  Well, prior, I wrote one book, now I have to have, now I have a couple more things that happened in my life, so. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm actually, um, helping someone get out of prison, turn over a life sentence, which is very, um, important to me, like prison reform, so I've been working a lot on that, because it's just, you know, a lot of stuff has gone on with that. And yeah, just waking up, being me.

• 1:15:59Bunnie XO?

  Just being calm. Like, how, this is your time to just really just shine and just, you went through so much chaos in the beginning of your life, that I feel like this is, this is your time to shine and just coast. Like, you deserve that, dude.

• 1:16:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:13Bunnie XO?

  I just, I appreciate you so much coming on this podcast, and I hope that people getting to hear your story now from your mouth, and, you know, everybody, when they do the Mob Wife aesthetic, like, it's cute, and we all do it, you know, for views and stuff like that, but there's a real lifestyle behind that.

• 1:16:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Bunnie XO?

  You know, and you definitely embrace it and embody it, and the fact that you've never had therapy, fucking is mind-blowing to me.

• 1:16:37Speaker 02

  I get asked that, and a lot of, even like, um, for me, I felt like, obviously, I'm really attached to that life, and when we did Mob Wives, they were like, I said, it, it's, there's so much more to the lifestyle, and if you're really gonna put me in a category with any women, even though they don't like me, the Victoria Gotti's and the people that have struggled, trials, tribulations, because no matter whatever happened between our, I mean, we'll always be joined, whether we like each other or not, so I will always have a mutual respect for them, in a way, um, because I understand, like, they lost their father, too.

• 1:17:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  There are really people out there that lost their parents, that lifestyle, whether it's dead or in prison, and, um, It's it's not easy, you know, so for me, even when I got out there and everyone's like, Mom, mob wives, they're making a mockery or they're doing this and you know, it was it was it was what it was and that's it was definitely not intended for that. And I think um, you know, when you really watched it, you understood that it was about women and their stories.

• 1:17:34Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  But for all my other mob wife families out there or mob families out there like I, it is and for you to say that because it is a lifestyle and there's a lot more behind it than just a mob wife aesthetic or you know, movies. It's a lot and it's it's um, it'll be with me forever, but it is who I am and it's me, me who I am. And that's why I will continue to be forever, you know, everything that is, whether it's the bad things or the good things. Are you know, sketched in my life and will make me always wanna be able to talk to people or help anyone in a situation because I understand that, so.

• 1:18:10Bunnie XO?

  I love that. You're a strong ass bitch.

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  Thank you. So are you.

• 1:18:13Bunnie XO?

  You don't, you don't have to compliment me back. You gotta take your flowers.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  No, because I, thank you, thank you. But I also when when um, because I know because Ramona said, oh Bunny's doing, you know, homework on us.

• 1:18:24Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:25Speaker 02

  Let me do a little homework on Bunny here.

• 1:18:26Bunnie XO?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  But I I admire everything that you've been through too and I you're real, right? So I even when we had that conversation um, on the phone before this, I was like, I felt like I was talking to like my one of my good friends.

• 1:18:38Bunnie XO?

  No.

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  And to be able to sit down with people that understand, maybe it's a different lifestyle, but you went through your trials and tribulations and we can sit here and have a real conversation. That's why you're doing so good and I'm proud of you too, so.

• 1:18:51Bunnie XO?

  I appreciate you so much. That means a lot to me. And you're gonna have to come back and visit me because I want you on the podcast. Anytime you have anything cool going on, just come and this is your platform and I'll always give it to you.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  Thank you. And now that you said that Sammy will be watching, he's been like, give me Bunny's number.

• 1:19:06Bunnie XO?

  Dude, I'll shit my pants if Sammy the Bull calls. I'll be like, hello? I don't even know what I would say. I'd be so excited. I don't fangirl much over things, but I just feel like you and your family, you guys have really just, you know, you guys are a part of history. You know, and like, there's a lot of people that are like, you know, famous and stuff like that, but you guys are literally a part of American history.

• 1:19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:26Bunnie XO?

  Like, that's wild.

• 1:19:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:19:29Bunnie XO?

  So why don't you shout out all your social media so that people can find you, websites for your business, all that jazz?

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  Okay, so Karen Gravano is on Instagram and the Instagram for The Body Depot is the dot Body Depot. The website for it is bodydepot.clinic and that's my baby. Like, I love, I love anything skincare. I love being there. I love kinda like building something from the ground, so yes, that's my baby.

• 1:19:57Bunnie XO?

  We're gonna come visit you next time, next time we actually have some time and we're in New York, because we do come on tour and stuff like that, or New Jersey. We're gonna come and spend a day and we'll probably bring the cameras and stuff like that and just get some treatments.

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah, I got you, girl, I got you.

• 1:20:10Bunnie XO?

  I think it'll be awesome.

• 1:20:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and then I'm working on something big, so look out for it. Hopefully it'll be on TV soon.

• 1:20:16Bunnie XO?

  And again, thank you so much Karen for coming.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:20:19Bunnie XO?

  Thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of Dumb Blonde. I will see you guys next week. Bye.