Liam Payne Opens Up About His Darkest Moments, Failed Relationships & Entrepreneurship

Liam Payne has been subjected to the intensity of the spotlight from the age of just 14, when he found global fame following his entry in to the X Factor’s seventh series, and the dizzying rise once he exited as one fifth of the group One Direction. The band was cemented as a phenomenon overnight-their success and the surrounding hype was likened to that of a modern-day Beatles at time of their debut single release. They became the first UK group ever to have their debut album reach number one in the United States. There probably are not many who are better placed than Liam to discuss instantaneous fame and the churning of its 'machine’. Liam has gone from a teen star to a fully-fledged solo artist who has taken ownership of his career in terms of its creative direction and elevated further with a strong signature pop/rnb style and a string of hits both here and abroad. He’s had his music streamed over a total of 2bn times. However, there is much more to him than the image of simply being a teen heartthrob or sugary popstar. The X Factor may be notorious for churning out ‘instant’ popstars but Liam clearly has a deep appreciation for music and the process behind its production. He studied as a musician prior to the start of his mainstream career and has grown as a gifted songwriter, with 40+ writing and co-writing credits to his name. He has previously said that he is accustomed to writing and recording entire albums in six weeks or less, and his evolution on personal and creative levels has no doubt been accelerated by his exposure. This conversation today isn’t your normal “reunion chat” we speak about so much in a lot of depth, everything from his relationships, his darkest times and everything in-between. Its open, its honest and its inspiring. During our conversation Liam mentioned it was one of the best chats he’d had in a while and I felt that, I hope you do too. Follow Liam: Twitter - https://twitter.com/LiamPayne Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/liampayne Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Steven Bartlett?

  There are very few people, maybe just the five of them, on planet Earth that have gone through what my next guest has gone through over the last decade. Very, very few people on planet Earth that can tell you the stories he can tell you and talk to you about the lessons he's learnt. Liam Payne is a miraculous, inspiring, complex, very honest, very vulnerable, very open book. Today, he's going to tell you about things that he probably shouldn't say and topics that he probably shouldn't talk about. But just imagine, imagine being catapulted into stardom at 14 years old and becoming

• 0:47Steven Bartlett?

  what many consider to be the modern day Beatles. He toured the world with One Direction. They had their ups, their downs, their mental health crises, their scandals, their relationships and everything in between. You know, if I was 16 years old and you asked me what I wanted to be, if I could, you know, dream up my life, I'd probably say professional football player or being in a boy band and travelling the world seems like a life that we'd all give everything to have. But what you're going to hear today is very different and it might just change your mind. It's certainly changed mine. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

• 1:37Steven Bartlett?

  Liam, crazy, crazy year society all of us have had with this whole lockdown situation. The place I wanted to start is just to ask how it's been for you.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  It has been interesting. I feel like I got the lockdown, the first depressive part of lockdown, a lot later than everybody else because our work went through the roof. And basically, it was interesting because I had to learn. Styling, makeup, hair, all these things that I wouldn't usually do when I'm with my team. And I lost everyone because you couldn't have anyone close contact. So I just had me and a camera guy that was staying with me. So every job was like, I mean, we even had one day where we set up our own green screen. And we set the green screen up from one P M. Until ten and then recorded till five o'clock in the morning. So it was like a whole day. So we were busier than ever. And then we started doing these online shows, which went really great.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  With a company called Veeps, which was good. And then I stopped working, which I thought was going to be really good for me because I was tired. And it was actually the worst thing in the world for me.

• 2:34Steven Bartlett?

  When you say you stopped working, describe your day at that point.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  I mean, I was just finding myself on the sofa for the whole day, just watching random Netflix. I've seen everything on Netflix.

• 2:45Steven Bartlett?

  On your own?

• 2:47Speaker 01

  No, my partner's there at the time.

• 2:48Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was, it was, it was wild and it was dark because you can't really go anywhere. You don't really know what you're doing and, and, and, and I felt like my career was kind of in a funny place at that point as well. And how I was agreeable with it at that time as well, if that makes sense.

• 3:03Steven Bartlett?

  Are you the type of person that needs to be kept busy?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  I think so. I think I've had a crash course this last year in learning to have my own time. Because I mean, imagine from, from about the age of sixteen, seventeen, we were day sheet every day. So when you don't have a day sheet, it's like, what the hell do I do? And then the other part of it's like, you don't really learn what you enjoy from that point either. So it was that, that was quite difficult in lockdown because you have so much time to yourself. And then it was like, I saw something the other day about toxic productivity. Did you see this?

• 3:34Steven Bartlett?

  I've seen this.

• 3:34Speaker 01

  Obviously, they got a new ism for, for everything, but it actually made sense to me. If I'm not doing something that's, that's productive, I feel like I'm going backwards. So then I'm trying to make, I'm trying to force moves. And I suppose

• 3:46Speaker 01

  that was one of the things I think I learned most about myself. I don't have to be doing something every day to feel good about myself.

• 3:51Steven Bartlett?

  Where does that come from? Do you, do you think that need to feel like you're moving forward? Or it feels like backward motion?

• 3:58Speaker 01

  I have no idea. I think I'm just quite driven in that sense.

• 4:01Steven Bartlett?

  Have you always been like that since before One Direction?

• 4:04Speaker 01

  You know, I think we, we just always worked. Like I started, I was first on T V at fourteen. So that's young. It was twenty, then audience spec, I think at that point was like twenty million people, which is wild. So I was like fourteen years old. So from then on, my life's just been like doing the same thing over and over and over again up till this point. So I don't know, at, at, at times you fall out of love with it. And I think that, that trying to find. You know, and also you're not under any impression, this isn't going to stop at some point. Like a lifespan for an average pop star, I've outlived most lifespans without sort of thing, which has been amazing. Really, really cool. And I think part of that's probably from starting so young, but you know, it's going to end at some point. So you always want to find something else that you're good at. So it's kind of safety cushion.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Unless this is what investing has been my godsend in that because I started that really young as well. I'm trying to think about how I would do this or how I would do that, asking like, you know, like our old managers and people like that, what they invest in and stuff like that, which kind of makes me feel safer.

• 5:04Steven Bartlett?

  And does that, that comes from a play like mild paranoia that this might go someday, right?

• 5:08Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. It's like doomsday prophesies, like prophesies, you know?

• 5:12Steven Bartlett?

  Do you worry a lot generally?

• 5:14Speaker 01

  Uh, I think I did up until the last few months. I mean, having a lot of time, I think a lot of people had this same sort of thing, alcohol. It was just really, it was getting earlier and earlier.

• 5:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Easier and easier to go to. And for me, I don't know, I, it's, I think there's, there's a slight little bit of social anxiety as well in it that, you know, it was already hard sometimes to go out places for the thought that you might like papped or whatever, you know, there's always that extra level of stress. So for me, I've always been quite withdrawn.

• 5:47Steven Bartlett?

  So talking about lockdown, so you go through that sort of depressive period. I think we all went through that. And I think for me, what I kept thinking about is like, if you just go with the lockdown, you're like, someone like me would just probably like hang around bed on my lap, you know, my laptop. What I had to do was like proactively, Steve, get up and do something today. Go put your shoes on motherfucker. You know what I mean?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  But then the thing what I found about that was sometimes you ain't Superman and you're going to have a bad day. And my thing is if I don't set out what I'm aiming to do that day, then I become more depressive, if that makes sense. But it's just like, I think the, the main thing for me, I mean, I've always called it like a small victories thing. And that's why I love the gym, because if I've at least been to the gym that day, then I've done something. But then I started to like branch that out more that it was call a family member, you know, spend some time with my son, make sure I get FaceTiming. Cause it was hard. The first point of it, we couldn't see each other. It was the longest I've been seeing my son in a long time, um, which was difficult. But then it was like, as long as I've done one of those things in the day, then it doesn't matter if I didn't do anything else. And it's like. What I found more than anything, and this with alcohol, with all this stuff, it's like

• 6:53Speaker 01

  boundaries. There were no boundaries. So, you know, if you're on Zoom, you can quite easily hide that you might be a little bit tipsy at the point you shouldn't be. So it was like creating your own boundaries, creating your own routines. And that's where I think everybody struggled the most without routine. And I noticed you had a dog here.

• 7:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Which at the moment, that's one of my things that I think I'm definitely going to get a dog because I need routine. I need it.

• 7:16Steven Bartlett?

  So you start, you start drinking more and more during the lockdown, you realise, you get, you're aware.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Oh, I put on so much weight. I was eating badly. I kind of described, describing it as a bulking period. It was a dirty bulk. Don't worry about it. I'm doing it for a movie role.

• 7:30Steven Bartlett?

  It's a whole strategy.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the best new, new excuse. If anyone asks you put weight, yes, for a role, don't miss. You were, you're coming out, you know, 2022. Yeah. And I put a lot of weight on and what got me, I did one performance on TV. It was with the BAFTAs actually. And I was disappointed myself, but like, I was always a fairly sporty kid and then kept moving and like, I didn't look how I wanted to look. You know what I mean? There was nothing wrong with that, but just in your own self, you know how you feel about it. And obviously, they say the camera adds 10 pounds. It definitely did. And I saw myself for the first time and I was like, oh my God, like I've completely let myself go in this. And it was fine. I kind of needed it. And actually, it's been the best outcome for me because I feel so much more secure in myself now. And I feel like I know where I'm at again, which is good.

• 8:13Steven Bartlett?

  Have you struggled to maintain consistency with the gym? Well, no, I have. If you look at the last five years.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  I did. I did. I mean, training partners is the best one for that, you know, and, and each of you putting a session together and throwing in different moves because then you're doing something that's a bit different. You know, I mean, we recently, my training partner, I got to like a point where we're like a stalemate with the stuff that we're doing. So then we, we started like branching out to different gyms and they have different kit and then, you know. But I'm, I'm fairly good with keeping myself on the go with it.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  I mean, like I say, the only problem for me was just alcohol. You can't train and drink and anything. You can't do it all at once. You're gonna be a rock star or you're gonna be a star in the gym. That's your choice.

• 8:52Steven Bartlett?

  And do you think you've gotten a bit of a sort of addicted personality in that regard, where you'll get into something and just go all the way?

• 8:57Speaker 01

  I mean, as an addict, I want to say no, but I know I definitely do. Yeah, 100%. I think, well, there's a lot worse things to be addicted to than looking after yourself, so. Yeah.

• 9:10Steven Bartlett?

  What's been the upside for you? A lot of people listening to this, well, especially coming out of lockdown now, there's a lot of people that weren't able to go to the gyms because they were closed. And now that, you know, some people just need that little bit of a push to understand what the value is of the gym. And what's the value of the gym been in your life?

• 9:26Speaker 01

  I think.

• 9:27Steven Bartlett?

  Because you're going twice today.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  The value of the gym. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't call the first one. The first one's more of like a wake up. Let's call it a vinyasa, like a yoga type. The first day I went to the gym in lockdown, I went and looked at the gym. Because I was like, if I go in there and start moving around and throwing stuff and whatever else, then I'm not going to want to go the next day. And then you have to slowly build it up. Don't go in and think you need to do 45 minutes because they're running the magazine that they said this. There's no quick route. For me, it's three, you need three months for any significant change that you have. And then it's like, start at 20 minutes, 15 minutes, just go and feel it out. And then you'll find after a while, the exercises, you're like, oh my God, I only have five more minutes in here and I need another five minutes. And guess what? You can have them. So then it's slowly like, we've got, we're up to, you know, an hour, an hour and 10 minutes now. So it's like from starting at 15, 20 minutes.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  But for me, it's just, like I say, it's been able to get into bed at night and have that small victory to know at least I did this. And it was for me. It wasn't for anybody else. That's, I think that's important.

• 10:24Steven Bartlett?

  And you're not doing it to try and get a sick, I mean, everyone's doing it low key to try and get six pack, but you're doing it because it's a lifestyle decision for your.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I recently started jujitsu and it's for me, I want to be able to do what a lot of these guys are doing. Like the funny thing, jujitsu is super humbling because you just get thrown around like, it's like a tiger eating a gazelle or something. I mean, it's wild. So it's like, as soon as it happens, and I was always quite a small dude. I've never been like a big guy. I mean, even when I did my underwear commercial, I was still like. I think I was 75 kilos, which is super light, right?

• 11:00Steven Bartlett?

  Super light.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  So when I'm in the gym, people are like throwing me over here and I'm like, I'm going that way today, am I? Then I'm over here. And it's like, so I put, I did want to put some weight on, but I put too much weight on at one point. I was like, I went hell for leather, but it's more for the, the, the fitness side and the jujitsu side that I'm training as hard as I am.

• 11:16Steven Bartlett?

  I wanted to ask you some advice. I've been announced as a dragon on Dragon's Den.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  And how do you feel about that, by the way?

• 11:23Speaker 01

  It's pretty cool, man.

• 11:24Steven Bartlett?

  It's cool because.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  You're a dragon. Like when some kids want to grow up being a dragon, you are a dragon.

• 11:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know. I, I watched it when I was 12. So it came out when I was 12 and I used to watch it and I've never missed an episode.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Wow, that doesn't surprise me at all.

• 11:35Steven Bartlett?

  And I said to the team, I used to pretend I was a dragon, sit there, pause the TV, give my verdict at 13 years old.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 11:42Steven Bartlett?

  All this stuff. Um, the bit I wanted to ask your advice on is when it was announced, you know, I had my little moment, 15 seconds where like all of the press talk about you. Your Twitter blows up, lots of attention. What advice would you give to me about dealing with this kind of noise? Cause you, I mean, there's not many people on planet earth that have dealt with noise and like that, right?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Um, I think don't, it's a really fine line between getting too wrapped up in what's going on and not being wrapped up enough in it, if you know what I mean.

• 12:14Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 12:15Speaker 01

  But I think, I think you know the things that hurt you the most because you know they're honest. So when someone says something new, like if they hurt you, then it hurt you a lot, then you know there's some truth in it because it hurt you. If it's ridiculous, you just go, that was funny, as if they said that, you know what I mean?

• 12:28Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 12:29Speaker 01

  So I think there's a, there's a fine line to tread with it. And I mean, I've gone through eras where I was such like a little clapback, attitude driven youth.

• 12:36Steven Bartlett?

  Responding.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Where as soon as someone would say something, I'd be like, right, well then let's go at you. And then I was, I mean, I was a bit mean and nasty at points. It was a bit bad. But when you're a teen growing up in it and people are like basically bullying you and they get paid for it, it's like, that's a bit outrageous. So I'm going to have my say. Who's got the biggest mountain? You know what I mean? But then it's like, someone said to me over time, it's like, you know, if someone says something about me in the press in this country, and then I say something about them. It ends up on E news and then they've made America. I didn't get anywhere. So it's like, don't bring people up to your level if you don't think you, unless you absolutely have to. And one thing I would say, don't lose your phone doing this, notes. If someone pisses you off, write a note about it.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  As if you were writing them a letter and then let it go. Just don't send it. And then it gets all your, what you would tweet out, but you don't say it. That was the best thing I ever did. That was the best thing I ever did.

• 13:29Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:30Steven Bartlett?

  So pop open your notes then.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  I just remembered one.

• 13:34Steven Bartlett?

  Imagine, fucking hell. No, it's crazy because you read stuff and I was saying to you, you know, before we started filming, like I've got a baby apparently and a wife and then you look at the other. I know, exactly. You're doing really well. Yeah. And I just thought, you know, it's crazy that, um, there's not a high regard for truth in.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Do you know what? I was actually on the way into this. I wanted to speak about this because obviously there's a lot in the, in the world at the moment about freedom of speech and the press freedom of speech, which I agree with, right? We should, we don't need to dictate laws. My only problem is, and my biggest problem around Corona was the fact that the media were allowed to twist our thinking about Corona as much as they wanted to. And they're still doing it now, but the fear mongering isn't helping anyone, you know, and these people aren't sat there going, oh, I've just written a great article. My boss is going to promote me. Oh yeah, but you just decreased the value of the pound. So your wages that you think are worth more are now worth less.

• 14:24Steven Bartlett?

  Well, it's a struggling industry, right?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  I just don't get it. I'm like, if it's a medical thing and it's the world that is in trouble, maybe there should have to be something in place that says this is true. Or not that they have to put a disclaimer and say, you should take advice from your local government. Bullshit. We all read you for advice and you are offering us a disservice by telling us non-truths about stuff.

• 14:46Steven Bartlett?

  It should be regulated, you're saying.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I get that. There's a hairdressers account for me for people going, oh my God, I can't believe what that Liam Payne's done this week. What's he done now? You know, I get that, but for Corona?

• 14:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:57Speaker 01

  We don't need to be going, oh yeah. Have you read the thing about this new variant that's come from over the border? Yeah. I can't believe it. Like someone from America phoned me the other night and like, are you going to be able to come here soon? I'm like, no, I ain't.

• 15:07Steven Bartlett?

  No, no chance.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  But we don't, none of us know. We're all confused because we're being spouted fear, which I just think is terrible. I just, I don't get it.

• 15:15Steven Bartlett?

  Doesn't help either because there's, there's screenshots knocking around WhatsApp groups saying all sorts of.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that, as much as this technology advancing on us, it's like this slow road. I mean, it's almost like the coins thing at the moment with the Bitcoins. Like there's some coins that are actually seriously there to do a job.

• 15:33Steven Bartlett?

  And the shit.

• 15:33Speaker 01

  And then there's like the fuck Elon Musk coin, which does nothing but just disrespect Elon Musk.

• 15:38Steven Bartlett?

  It's worth like five billion.

• 15:41Steven Bartlett?

  It's actually nuts. You said earlier, you made a comment, you said that your partner at the time, referring to lockdown, does that mean you are?

• 15:50Speaker 01

  I am indeed.

• 15:51Steven Bartlett?

  You're single?

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:52Steven Bartlett?

  Me and you both.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Where are we going?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  No, I'm saying to myself, I feel like, I feel like more than anything at this point, I'm more disappointed in myself for the keep on hurting people. That annoys me. I've just been not been very good at relationships. And I know what my pattern of things is with relationships, I feel at this point. I'm just not very good at them. So I just need to like work on myself before I, before I put myself on to somebody else. And I feel that's where, you know, that's where I got to in my last relationship. I just wasn't given a very good version of me anymore that I didn't appreciate and I didn't like being. And I can honestly say that I feel better out of it. I didn't feel good for doing what, what, what I did, but it had to happen. I mean, that's the corniest way of saying it was best for both of us, whatever. Cool. Nice story, bro. But it just feels like that.

• 16:38Steven Bartlett?

  Very self-aware for you to know that you.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, no, I know it was a problem. So I need to sort myself out and I already feel good. So it's got me more concentrated, you know, and I hope she's happy.

• 16:50Steven Bartlett?

  What is it you've discovered about yourself in relationships that you're trying to work on?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Do you know what?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  I mean, one of our old managers went to therapy from being a manager of One Direction. So if you can imagine how that feels. Like the rest of us definitely need some. And for me, most part, I was really regressing from therapy because everyone was pushing me into it. Which is the worst thing you can do. Like, it's almost like becoming sober, for instance. You have to wanna be sober to start with, not people taking your toys away and you going, oh my God. So it kind of felt like that. Whereas this time, I kind of threw myself into it, even though I didn't want, didn't really want to inside. I threw myself into it, made my own choices. And I think for me, my life's been so controlled to a point, day sheets, security guards, you know, anything. And it's all, everybody else is dictating puppet master crap over the top of your life.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  Then you just get to a point where it's like, you have to take some control back yourself. And until I started to do that with my life, then I was living for everybody else. And I'm a complete people pleaser anyway. So it was like, nothing in my life was about. Serving myself, which then that just put me in a bad place and finding enjoyment from other stuff that I don't need.

• 17:56Steven Bartlett?

  What did, because I've always considered therapy for a bunch of reasons.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  And the thing is, it's still such like a taboo kind of phrase and thing, and I get it, I do get it. I was, I mean, I was on the phone to Louis from my band talking about it today. And it's like, there was one moment last week and, and I mean, my manager's my best friend. He'd been saying to me for a long time, you'll have that one awakening in the middle of it where you'll think about stuff. And I, I mean, I hate words like awakening. And I hate this like Hollywood perception of like reflective work. What the fuck is that? You know what I mean? But I get it. But at the same point, I'm like, I don't know. You keep it for you. But it's like, I had this one moment that, that I found and I was like, oh my God, that's just unlocked so many truths about me. And it was so insignificant. Something that happened when I was younger and it was so, to me, it was like a family joke. But now I'm like, oh my God, I've been living my whole life as that character. And yeah, wild, wild. You'll love it.

• 18:48Steven Bartlett?

  Scary.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Really scary.

• 18:50Steven Bartlett?

  Because you don't know what you're gonna find. It's like opening up.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  No, that's it. It's wild. But I'm, I'm so glad that I, one, went through what I went through this year. And two, that, you know, I think this year's forced something out of all of us. And for me, it forced me to really look at my life and go, what the F are you doing? Like grow up. And that was the point. I'm still trying to work on that. But.

• 19:10Steven Bartlett?

  So you regressed from therapy?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I always turned away from it. And I was always like, oh, I don't, I don't need therapy. I'll sort myself out. You know, your own worst enemy at that point.

• 19:18Steven Bartlett?

  I'm really keen to understand what makes you a difficult, you know, specifically what makes you a difficult person to date. I ask this question because I'm difficult today.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Do you want me to pull a few people in here?

• 19:28Steven Bartlett?

  Coming on down, his best friend.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 19:32Steven Bartlett?

  Every ex-girlfriend. We've got them behind the curtain.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Now that would be a weird room.

• 19:36Steven Bartlett?

  Can you imagine? That drops down and they're all there.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 19:39Steven Bartlett?

  Hi, I dated him for three weeks.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  I'd be out.

• 19:44Steven Bartlett?

  What would be the, the consistent theme as to why you're difficult today?

• 19:47Speaker 01

  I think, I think my problem, I struggle to be on my own sometimes.

• 19:50Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I struggle to be on my own. And I think I dive in and out of relationships too quickly. And I've not had to spend enough time on my own to really learn about myself, if that makes sense. I honestly just need a minute out. I need to check myself.

• 20:05Steven Bartlett?

  But I'm really, I'm really keen. So you, you needed to spend some time on your own to kind of understand yourself because in a relationship context, you find that you kind of, you're in and you're out a little bit too much. Is that what you're saying?

• 20:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I, I don't know. I think the biggest problem we have. I'm proper perfectionist, terrible, terrible, terrible. So when it comes down to relationships, I'm always trying to, at the start of the relationship, as we all do, you put out this complete false character.

• 20:30Steven Bartlett?

  Yes.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Like, I might as well go in costume at this point. And I'm like putting out something that is not there. The person is absent from the room. It's like they tag teamed on the way in. I'm, oh, it's you for this bit, yeah. I'll join in later on. And I just, yeah, I just need to stop doing that. And then kind of like,

• 20:48Speaker 01

  one, encompassing someone else's life with your crap, rather than like just doing your thing and laying out your stall from the day one. That's my biggest problem, I feel for myself. I don't lay out my stall. I'm like willing to bend to someone else's stall and then I'm annoyed at why they don't like what I like.

• 21:02Steven Bartlett?

  Amen.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  So then I'm like, oh, okay. But if I just laid out the stall early on and like, yeah, I go up at 5am and go for a run, well, how are we going to deal with that? So it's either in or it's not. You know what I mean? It's not, not, and not to not compromise, because some things you'll be like, okay, that annoys you, fine. But yeah, for me, I don't, I don't do that. I lay out a completely different, it's like a Woolworths when you wanted an arse or, you know.

• 21:23Steven Bartlett?

  That's, I've really debated that. I'm going to personally, especially recently, because the girl I was into is very into everything that I'm not into. Like, like, she's into like horoscopes and like, I don't know.

• 21:37Speaker 01

  What's wrong with us?

• 21:37Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know. So I'm there like fucking looking at horoscopes, being like, no, yeah, because you're trying to make.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Spiritual people scare me sometimes.

• 21:45Steven Bartlett?

  But at the start of a relationship, you become more like them, they become more like you, and then as a couple of weeks, months pass, you just regress to who you actually are.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Well, you almost like, I feel like I hide resentments from people sometimes. And I'm like, something annoys me and I'm like, oh, no, no, it's fine. But inside I'm thinking, Jesus Christ, I wish she didn't do that. And then it's like, then over time, I'm like, every little thing starts creeping in. And I did this in my job really badly, because I would bend to my job and let my job overtake things that I didn't like doing. Steve will actually be honest, like videos for stuff. And rather than going no, until one day, I just was like, I hate everything. And now it's almost gone back the other way. Now I've had this little reset that like, I'm starting to call people in to do what I want to do, rather than bending to everybody else's stuff. You know, and this, you'll probably experience the same, in this, you're pulled every which way, you know? And it's always about impressing whoever's behind the lens or whoever's in the audience.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  So I find I feel conversations with crap that I'm saying that doesn't really help me because I'll go home thinking, why the hell did I say that? Like, what, now I'm that guy? Oh, my God, you know? And then, and then it's like, but I was saying it because I thought it would entertain the other person. It wasn't about me. Stupid.

• 22:52Steven Bartlett?

  It's really fascinating that you're so self-aware of all these forces at play because it feels like you've spent a long time really analysing and looking at your behaviour.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  I think that can have its benefits and it can have its problems as well. I think I'm like over critical at points, but you know, you can't win everything.

• 23:09Steven Bartlett?

  Being a perfectionist.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  Yep, it's an issue.

• 23:12Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Talk to me about what that means specifically in your life, in work, in relationships.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Steve.

• 23:18Steven Bartlett?

  In everything. Steve's his manager who sat behind the camera.

• 23:23Steven Bartlett?

  I feel like we should publish.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  I know. You know what I love about this is that my fans think that like Steve's like doing something to me. They're always like, oh, liberty for Liam. He always looks for Steve. But it's only because I like him. It's not because he's like harming me as a person. There's like a hashtag liberty for Liam. Like they think I'm like some like prison child.

• 23:40Steven Bartlett?

  There's going to be all these other people who are just listening on the audio and think you're calling my name.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  The one thing I really got into over lockdown was art and drawing.

• 23:53Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, interesting.

• 23:54Speaker 01

  Something I've done since I was younger. And the point was find something to do that doesn't make you money. Was the whole point of the exercise. I was like, okay, cool, drawing. And I said to the person who gave me the advice at the time, I was like, I guarantee this turns into something. Hold for later on in the conversation. So I started drawing. But then what I found was I was so bad at starting a task, blank sheet of paper and all that, because I was so worried about what might come out that I was like, I'd sit there and like, if something's not quite right, I like, it could ruin my day in a draw. And if something goes wrong and it's not quite right, I'm like, oh my God. Like, I hate it. That's the kind of thing.

• 24:33Steven Bartlett?

  And how did that go?

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Okay. I mean, the thing is, once I got started and got on to some stuff, but then it was like, sometimes in that respect, then I was drinking to draw pictures because I was so in my own fricking way. And it's the same writing songs as well. You can do the same thing with everything. You can trade out all that crap. And it's like, that's why, you know, people might smoke a bit or do whatever when they make a track. It's all about getting out your own way. And I feel like now I feel much more like I know who I am and I know what I want to do. So I don't need to be in my own way. I'm going to go, you know, I don't need these additives. They only make me worse anyway.

• 25:07Steven Bartlett?

  In the long run, right?

• 25:08Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 25:09Steven Bartlett?

  Today it might help, but tomorrow it's going to cause problems.

• 25:13Steven Bartlett?

  And are you still drinking?

• 25:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 25:15Steven Bartlett?

  Not soon.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I've been sober just over a month now, I think it is.

• 25:19Steven Bartlett?

  My business partner, he, when we started the business, became an alcoholic about three, four years in because it was just too tough. And then he had like severe suicidal ideation. He actually didn't tell me at the time. And this is why when I was reading about your story, I could relate to so much of it because I didn't say what I was going through to him. He didn't say it to me. And then it was like after we'd sold the business that he was like, I used to stand on the train platforms and think about jumping in front of the train. And I was like, and he never told me and, and, but there was, and you, I didn't know what alcoholism or re-mental health was at the time. But I'd go downstairs, three AM in the morning and I'd open up the laundry room and he's in there with a bottle of wine at three AM. The lights are off and he's just drinking it, sat on the clothes. I'm like, get off my fucking clothes.

• 25:59Steven Bartlett?

  And I was like, what the hell's going on? But, you know, and I, I read similar thing, similar sort of story or narratives in your story where, you know, you were having moments of that, that kind of like ideation. You were having moments of suicidal ideation and.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there's, there's some stuff that I've definitely like never, never spoken about to do with it. It was really, really, really severe. And it was a problem. And, and, and it was only until I saw myself after that I was like, I need to fix myself. There was a few pictures of me on a boat and I'm all like bloated out and I call it pills and booze face. And I was like this, like my face was just like 10 times more than it is now. And I just didn't like myself very much. Then I made a change and the same thing happened this year with, with, with that sort of thing as well. But the problem we had in the band, and I don't blame anybody for this. I don't want to seem like I'm whining or moaning, oh my God, look at my life, whatever. But it feels to me like when we were in the band, the best way to secure us because of how big it got was just lock us in our rooms. And of course, what's in the room? minibar. So at a certain point I thought, well, I'm going to have a party for one.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  And that just seemed to carry on throughout many years of my life. And then you look back, how long you've been drinking and stuff, where you're like, Jesus Christ, that's a long time, even for someone who's, you know, as young as I was.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  It was wild, but it was like the only way you could get frustration out in the day or being like trapped. And, and you know, I spoke about to somebody about this and, and in child development, you know, as a teen, the one thing you need is, is freedom to make choices and freedom to do stuff. And it was the one thing that although we could do anything we wanted, it seemed from the outside that we were always locked in a room at night. And then it would be car, hotel room, stage, sing, locked. So it was like they pulled the dust cloth off, let us out for a minute and then woo-hoo. And then he's like back underneath it and I'm like, gut.

• 27:40Steven Bartlett?

  So crazy because you're right, the public will think the absolute opposite. We think, ah, One Direction, those guys have got total freedom. All the money and what they can do anything. Everyone's, you know, in their nine to five jobs, just thinking, I'd love to have that level of freedom that Liam Payne has to do anything, but you can't do anything, right? It's the opposite.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  No, I mean, because we were young. I mean, I actually wanted to speak to you about this as well. So obviously you've, you've reached strats very high. It's a young age. It's like, what I found was, I didn't know I was the boss until a long, until like a few months ago. I still don't even feel like I am now. Like I'm such a child and everyone I work with is like

• 28:16Steven Bartlett?

  W R.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  Older than me and wiser than me. And I'm like, what the hell am I doing here with these people? So it's like, you, you, you know, when we were 17, I thought the security guard was like in charge of me. Like I was like, oh, can we leave the room? No. Okay. Then not to worry. I'll just stay here. That's what I was like. So I didn't know what the hell I was doing. You know what I mean? It's like, and, and no one, there's no guidebook. They don't give you a little DVD on the way in saying, here, you're a pop star. This is what you gotta do. So I'm like in the room, like, what are we allowed to leave? And then eventually that becomes like an angry person and I was because there was points where it was toxic and it was difficult. Don't get me wrong. We had the best time ever. We did. But there was moments where through, you know, I mean, there's, there's, there's a big movement on it at the moment and people overworking and, and like,

• 29:02Speaker 01

  you don't realize you have a choice at that point. But in those shows, sometimes they don't give you the choice because you want the dream, but you have to realize there is a sacrifice for that. You know, rather than it just, and like I say, I never want to come on, on these things and whine about stuff. Like I made my own choices in life, you know, being alcoholic, doing whatever else, that were my choice. So, you know, it, it, it doesn't have to be whiny, but it's just like, there was a sacrifice and I know what I did sacrifice to be here, you know?

• 29:30Steven Bartlett?

  Everything, what I've come to learn, everything in life, all the good shit comes with a cost.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 29:36Steven Bartlett?

  And I've, I've learned just from my own experience, like my success, my success is very different from yours. We went very different paths, but came with a clear cost because you can't go from being an 18 year old kid that's like making Chicago town pizzas to feed himself to being, to building a company worth 300 million within six, seven years.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  What a great sentence that was, by the way.

• 29:56Steven Bartlett?

  I could, like, I was a fucking loser, like loner. Like, I was in my room for summers upon summers on my own, just, you know, because I couldn't, my parents weren't talking to me. They said, don't call us until you go back to university. Years on my, so I wasn't speaking to my family, no friends, because I couldn't even afford to see them. That was the cost for me. And what that made is someone who, again, isn't very social. On the weekends, I spend ninety nine percent of my time alone.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  I'm the same.

• 30:20Steven Bartlett?

  And people are like, oh, my God, I'd love to be, I'm like, well, and then, and then I have the same thing you have, which is my brain is always has a thousand tabs open. And I can't just go and sit on a sun lounger and tan. Like, tan?

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Tanning, that's what.

• 30:33Steven Bartlett?

  What's my brain gonna do then?

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Sitting in the bath is one of my worst ones as well. But that's it. You're right. And you know what? Like, think about someone as simple as someone who like plays guitar. The amount of time you have to spend alone with that instrument. You're gonna be missing a couple of other things that happen in life.

• 30:45Steven Bartlett?

  Exactly.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  And that's what it's like. Exactly. And that was for us, for us as teams growing up. And, you know, I think people, like I said, I started at forty.

• 30:53Steven Bartlett?

  That's nuts.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Like, I was in my school. I remember very clearly the moment that, that, like, the X Factor, like, moment happened when I was, when I was younger. And I was playing football on a field and we had an all-girls school right next door to us. So I'm just playing football like it's a normal day. I've had a few, like, people, like, shout me out in the street where I was like, cool, I'm, you know, fourteen years old. The whole school from the other school is on the fence.

• 31:14Steven Bartlett?

  You're joking.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  And I'm like banned from that field for life.

• 31:17Steven Bartlett?

  At first, how does it feel?

• 31:20Speaker 01

  It was wild, but what their people don't.

• 31:22Steven Bartlett?

  Good wild?

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was amazing. I was like, I went from like zero to like, I was the, you know, it was, the thing is, I always say these people, I wasn't world famous when I was fourteen, but I was famous within my world. So it's like, well, I didn't leave Wolverhampton and everybody in Wolverhampton knew who the hell I was, so I couldn't go anywhere. So, you know, and at that point, I can't afford a security guard. I'm not special enough to have any of these, like, additives. I'm still on the seven nine four eight to, to, you know, my little, my little Christian school. And then what happened over time is. And you know, people are people, they do what they do. But there was, there was one significant moment for me where I knew that I lost it and I wasn't gonna go back on X Factor to be in the band, which would have been wild, by the way. I would not have been here right now.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  But there was a moment, I was in a McDonald's with like a new girlfriend I had at the time, and it had been two years since the show. And I noticed my shows decreased in number, decreased in capacity, and decreased in wages. So I was like down and out at this point. So I've had fame and lost it. And I'm like, nearly 16 years old. So that's difficult to deal with anyway at that age. And then I'm in McDonald's and because everyone still knows who I am, I'm sat there and I literally remember about take a bite of this nice juicy burger, someone on the stairs goes, "X Factor reject!" And the whole restaurant looks at me, right? I'm 15 years old. And it was just horrible.

• 32:40Steven Bartlett?

  What a scumbag thing to say.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  I know, but it was like, that's, that's the thing. It's like, it was almost like a shout out to say, "Oh, you think you're special, but you're still here."

• 32:51Speaker 01

  In the most Wolverhampton.

• 32:52Steven Bartlett?

  I guess you've got to understand where that comes from, though, from that person. What's going on in their life?

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Someone said something to me today, "It's not what you do, it's what's happened to you", which I thought was quite, I like that.

• 33:02Steven Bartlett?

  So, so tell me what happens from there. So you, I don't want to go too much into the, because I know you get asked this stuff all the time. So we don't want to go over old tracks, but that was your first sort of experience with fame. You then kind of, you feel it declining. Ice Cube says some stuff to you in the McDonald's. Life, life carries on. And then, uh, yeah, on the point, because I really want to get to this. I know you're working on this NFT project.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:21Steven Bartlett?

  And it's based around this feeling of being.

• 33:23Speaker 01

  It's based around the idea of this. It was, it was like a, I want to call it a syndrome. I don't know what it was. Someone told me something about fame. You enter fame the age, you, you leave fame the age you entered it. So for me, that was 14, right? So I'm screwed. Like I'm the 14 year old forever child. So that was always a big fear of mine, that I have to grow properly. Now, from what One Direction gave me, I grew massively in some respects, to the point that, I mean, you all have experiences when you have conversations about business deals. And I'm the director of a company, like I was the director of a half a billion dollar industry at 22. And I'm like, what the hell does that mean? All it meant was I got to sign 10 times more forms than anybody else. Wild, right? So but then in other things, like if I'm trying to pay car insurance, I'm useless.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  So then you don't grow in other aspects of your life because you have other people do crap for you. Like picking up my post, I'm the worst person in the world. I I just forget about it, you know?

• 34:15Steven Bartlett?

  That must lead you open to be to be taken advantage of, right? Because they know that there's some things you don't know, like you were saying.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's it. And you're you're deluded in your growth of whatever. But this is where the N F T idea kind of came from. And it but it first started as this this little drawing that I did. And I wanted to make my own character because I was like, I'm really good at drawing, but we have printers for that. I don't need to be a printer. So then I was like, I need to make something. So I made this like ethereal creature that was I wanted to three D print and stick in a like crystal glass box. And the idea is that he's depressed, that he's it's like a wasp in a beer glass type thing.

• 34:52Steven Bartlett?

  Ah, OK.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Magical creature, can't get out sort of thing. So then we kind of came up with this prayer eternist idea around fame and what does that lead to? And and for me, the way it speaks to me and the way that art speaks to me is that I was afraid of the idea of losing. You know, have a keeping the child with me. I was trying to like, he was like a monkey at my back, trying to get rid of him. Whereas for now, the idea for me is more based around, you know, how do I enjoy that? Because what I love when I see my son is that he can be whatever he wants in that moment. You know, I'll be over the house and he's like, you're a bad guy. I'm a good guy. And I'm like, that's great. And then the next day, he's one of them girls from Frozen. No, no, I'm doing this. It's magic powers today. And I'm like, wow, like, we lose that.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  And that's a lot of my problem when I'm sitting doing a task or whatever. The belief system in me has been trodden on through life that much that now I've forgotten about that. They have the ability to do whatever the hell they want. So why would you ever want to lose the child within you in that sense?

• 35:51Steven Bartlett?

  Wow. And that's coming out as an N F T soon?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Coming out as an N F T in like two weeks, I think. It's quite scary. It's wild because I just made it. I made it one day in lockdown and then sent it to my manager. And we enjoyed the pieces it was, but then it just kind of grew into this thing at the same time that N F Ts were growing.

• 36:08Steven Bartlett?

  Right.

• 36:09Speaker 01

  As a thing, I mean. How many people ask you what NFTs are, by the way?

• 36:14Steven Bartlett?

  So many of them, a lot of people. Like, I'll get DMs all the time and, you know, I'll try and describe what it is. But I think if you say something with enough conviction, people will just believe it anyway. So I'm like, you know, broccoli, you know, I'll just say anything.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:26Steven Bartlett?

  I know what it is. I've studied it. I'm working on a few projects at the moment with NFTs. But I'm just, you know, with all these emerging technologies and whenever something's new, I'm kind of like, probably a little bit like you and Christian. I know you're very, very entrepreneurial and investing a lot now. I just wanna be in there like a sponge. So I want like a flag in there just so I can learn some, yeah.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think that's a common misconception about this sort of thing as well is that you always come up with the idea that's coming to you rather than, like you say, being that sponge in the middle of the room. If you're not part of the million dollar conversation, you were never part of the fucking conversation.

• 37:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  And that's literally it. It's like be in the moment, like rather than trying to make decisions or you just have to learn about that stuff. And you don't have to know everything. You just have to know someone that does know something. You know what I mean?

• 37:13Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  The thing is, you get older. I think the wildest thing is that people, those phrases that they used to say to you as kids, like when I had my child, my mom saying to me, oh, like you're growing up so quickly, like blinking, you'll miss it. And like you're a kid, you're like, yeah, I'm six, like chill out. But then as you get older, you're like watching it and I watch my son grow. I'm like, oh my God.

• 37:30Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Like he's telling me off now.

• 37:34Steven Bartlett?

  They grow up so fast. My niece, I mean, I've got a child of my own according to the Daily Mail, but you know, just like this. Where did you get those legs from?

• 37:43Speaker 01

  I've been teaching mine to swim. I mean, we had a really good conversation today and it's like, it's a whole new learning experience. Once again, there's no handbook and you're just like out there on your own. And I still feel like a child in so many ways, as you've learned from my NFT.

• 37:55Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  But I'm watching him and like I played him a trailer, a movie trailer. It was this simple. I played him a trailer for a thing and we watched it. We both like, I like that. Let's stick that on. It was just Disney's Hooray and a dragon thing. It was about you.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  You and your new friend, Raya.

• 38:12Speaker 01

  And so we sat there and then I turned the film on and the first shot of the film was from the trailer. He's going, why are you playing this again? And I'm going, no, no, no, it was, we watched a trailer. No, but why is it on the TV again? And it kept like bits get flashing and I'm like, oh my God, this is not helping me. So then I'm like, okay, let me, how do I explain this? I was like, you know, like if we like have a plate of food and like I feed you a little bit and then you go, oh, and you don't want it and then I take it away. Or if I feed someone, you go, oh yeah. And I give you the whole thing. I was like, that's like this. And then he's going. Yeah, but why are we watching it again?

• 38:44Steven Bartlett?

  You must, do you get scared as a dad about doing the wrong thing or the right thing? Cause you say there's no handbook. So you're like, if you feed him this, or if you say this, he's going to start saying the C word at school like I do.

• 38:54Speaker 01

  Oh, when he did swear once, I was happy I wasn't around for it because I couldn't be blamed. And there's a way to root out, find out whose swear word it is. Cause it wasn't a combination I would use.

• 39:04Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, really?

• 39:04Speaker 01

  So I knew it wasn't me.

• 39:06Steven Bartlett?

  Mummy.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Who was it? Who was it?

• 39:09Steven Bartlett?

  We won't go into that. You said, I don't normally loop back, but there was something you said, which, which again, my mind thought, oh, that's really intriguing is you said that you weren't going to reapply for the X Factor potentially. Where do you think you would be? And I'm going to ask you various iterations of this questions. Where do you think you'd be in your life now if you hadn't have applied for the X Factor?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  So you want the business plan? That's what you really want to hear. You want to hear the business. Hey, I'll lay out for you. This, this is my, this was actually my like plan B system.

• 39:37Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know if I'm going to invest.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  Strange child. So I got a job. At the same time, this is really wild work experience where you get school. My dad worked at a factory and I was always obsessed. I was like, this is adult Lego and he built aeroplanes. I was like, this is amazing. I'm going to do that. So I went and I built aeroplanes and they had like a little collection for me. And I did like 400 quid and everyone, I was like, what did you get paid for your work experience? So I was like, nothing. I was like, oh, I got like 500 quid. But in the middle of my work experience, I went on X Factor. So it was almost like I was trialing my two lives. Almost like, what's that sliding doors film or whatever it's called, a butterfly effect?

• 40:08Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:09Speaker 01

  So my thing was I got a job and secured one there for an apprenticeship, which was like 22,000 a year or something. And then I was like, right, I know my sister paid 60 pound board at the house. So if I just like bored at my parents' house, it's 60 pound in fees. Then I can save up the other money enough to buy my first house and then rent it out.

• 40:28Steven Bartlett?

  All right.

• 40:28Speaker 01

  So then I was going to collect the rent, buy another one and then move into that one. And then it was almost like a conveyor belt system.

• 40:34Steven Bartlett?

  Nice. You had it all planned out.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  I had it ready to go.

• 40:36Steven Bartlett?

  And then X Factor ruined it.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  I mean, you say your, your favorite TV program was Strangers. Then mine was, I, I watched Help My House Is Falling Down and Location, Location, Location and stuff like that when I was a kid. I was like obsessed. Yeah. And then fun enough, my manager does loads of properties. Quite the odds.

• 40:50Steven Bartlett?

  Are you into property?

• 40:52Speaker 01

  I love property.

• 40:53Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 40:53Speaker 01

  I, I wasn't very good at it at the start, but I'm getting better.

• 40:57Steven Bartlett?

  You need to teach me some stuff because I have zero properties. I'm renting this place. I was gonna say to you, when you do a show like X Factor, what a lot of the sort of people that come out the other end of these shows often say, especially, I mean, very few have had the success that you've had, right? But I can imagine, and I think I might have read this somewhere before, maybe from Little Mix, is you feel somewhere in you that you still have something to prove.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 41:25Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 41:25Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 41:26Steven Bartlett?

  Talk to me about that.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 41:28Steven Bartlett?

  Because your success is just stratospheric. It's like in a league of its own.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  It's wild.

• 41:33Steven Bartlett?

  So to hear that you feel like you still have something to prove is surprising.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I think there's a problem that us as people, we all want something that we feel like we made. But the older I get and the more things I'm like privy to, you don't really make anything on your own ever. Like, I think there's just about Ed Sheeran that writes on his own. Even he doesn't write music on his own. So it's like, for one, that feels a little bit like that because you were in the band. And I suppose for each of us as members, we wanted to see what we could do. And I, you know, I'm really happy with my success as well. What I don't know is how much of this idea was mine to go with as being the music career. You know, you worry about like the life that you might have missed of, oh, I was gonna do this, whatever. I always quite liked the idea of the army as a kid. That's something I definitely wanted to do.

• 42:18Steven Bartlett?

  SAS.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love the idea of the army. And boxing's another one. I mean, I've been fortunate to have a go at a bunch of fun stuff. But yeah, I think you always feel like you have something to prove. And I think the end of the day, you're just, you're already really proving it to yourself because no one else really cares. Everyone else just looks at you as what it is. And it's not that you want to beat your brand because no one will beat our One Direction, not one of us in our lifetimes. In another lifetime, somebody might, might crack something. I mean, BTS have had a really good go at it. They've done really, really well. But we were like the new wave of the Beatles. And even still, people didn't say we beat the Beatles. You know what I mean?

• 42:55Steven Bartlett?

  It's different.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  It's different.

• 42:56Steven Bartlett?

  It's a different era.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's, that's what happened with our fame as well. We were just that of this era. It's the same with Justin Bieber, right? Who the hell has beaten that run? Come on.

• 43:04Steven Bartlett?

  They won't. Someone will be different.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. So it's just like, I think in the end, it's, you're only like fighting against yourself. I sound like Rocky Balboa now.

• 43:13Steven Bartlett?

  I'm really intrigued by all of that because you, you also have these five, so you have five band members, they all go off and do their own solo careers.

• 43:21Steven Bartlett?

  And I always, are you, do you compete against each other? Do you try and stay out of each other's lanes? Are you thinking about, oh my God, I don't want to be seen as doing, you know, what this person's doing?

• 43:30Speaker 01

  I think we did compete with each other at a point. But I think it's all fairly, it's laid out as it is now. And we've all had our success in completely different areas. And also musically, we didn't really go down the same route. I think Harry, Harry's an amazing, you know? I mean, first album, he had the one song off, which did really, really well. And then his second album, he found himself. And that's, that is your awakening in his eyes. That's when it really clicks. I don't feel like I've had that moment within me yet. I've written some songs recently that I'm really proud of and happy with, but I don't feel like I've had that moment yet. Strip That Down came out and it was, we did a billion streams and I could have never have asked for that. I could have never have asked for that in a million years. But when I was making Strip That Down, I was a box of frogs. I was nuts. It was wild. I didn't know what the hell was going on.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  And also I didn't know what the, what the, you know, the hot potato had just landed on me. Oh, we just did a billion streams. It's just like, it literally is like hot potato. One minute's here, the next minute's gone. So, you know, I'm excited to see what the next, the next six months of this brings. You know, I'm excited to see, to see, we have some, a really cool song in the pipeline, um, which is really exciting.

• 44:37Steven Bartlett?

  Wow.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Really exciting. And the song, one of the first ones I've actually written myself, um, with some other people, I didn't write by myself. But it's, yeah, the first one I've really liked. And I think I got so used to carting around other people's songs and not embedding myself creatively in what I do, because I was scared to find out who I was.

• 44:57Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  So it's almost like, that's the thing, when you're selling yourself, you have to know what the hell you're selling. And I'm, you know, I'm sure most people wake up every day going, I don't know what the fuck is going on.

• 45:06Steven Bartlett?

  And you have to fail to find that out, right?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 45:08Steven Bartlett?

  Cause you're gonna have to try some shit and experiment.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Oh my God. And it's like, so say like, you're like geeky kind of growing phase between say 16 to.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Twenty one, if you're lucky, you might last a bit longer if you're shit.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  You, I did that in front of everyone and there's some terrible outfits. There's some terrible haircuts. You know, that stuff is there forever. I've gotten away with a few haircuts.

• 45:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I feel like you've had some great ones. The short haircut, I think not a lot of people can pull that out. I've got a bit of like a melon head thing at the back, so I can't, I can't do that. People think I'm an alien, but um, no, you've had some good haircuts. I've got to be honest. When I, I read something about, um, strip that down, you said that you were almost scared of the success, just as much as scared of the failure.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I mean, no one trains you for the moment. It goes right, right?

• 45:53Steven Bartlett?

  So you leave One Direction, you've got your big sort of debut single coming out and you're scared of the success.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  I was worried because I know what that can bring to you.

• 46:03Steven Bartlett?

  What can it bring?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Well.

• 46:05Steven Bartlett?

  I've never had a.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  I, I, I finished a day recently, one of the one days that stuck out for me in the last few years where I did a whole day's promo in New York. And on the night time, I was on, I think it's the Andy Cohen show or something and they had a drinking game. And someone asked me a question about one of my ex-girlfriends and I did not want to divulge what the hell went down. And it was a drinking game. So I, I was like, they were like, we can fill it with water, but me being me was like, no, if I'm playing, I'm playing for real. So I'm like necking tequila.

• 46:33Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, gosh.

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Like boom, and I'm wasted. I get home at half past one. Bear in mind, I started at like, I want to say eight o'clock in the morning. I was then asleep and I woke up at half past three for vocal training to be in Central Park at seven, for grooming at five and in Central Park for seven o'clock. Bear in mind, I went to bed at half past one. So I know what it can bring and that, that crap will send you insane. I don't remember some days I was here. Like that will send you round the bend, but it's the, if you want it, if you want it, it's out there for you. You can go ahead and take it. But it's like, you have to be a workhorse to want to, to do this. And I think a lot of artists would say that coming out of it, but I don't think it's. You know, it's unfortunate the demand in our industry and also the demand of, of how quickly people receive information now.

• 47:16Speaker 01

  You know, our 30 second time, like goldfish time span that we've got now. I mean, I definitely have that. I'm the worst.

• 47:25Steven Bartlett?

  And it went really, really fucking well.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  It went really well. And then he was like, you know, the problem we had was, it was like having a baby. The thing was nine months to get the number one in America. So it took nine months to work the record just to get the number one. So if you can imagine singing the same song every day for nine months and having like one or two songs to back it up with. It was like, pretty like, I'm sure somewhere that must be like, put down as a method of torture.

• 47:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I can imagine. You must.

• 47:54Speaker 01

  But this is the job, man. And it's like, it's, listen, the first few shows of anything are amazing. And then after a while, it's like, you'll find bits that were like great on you and whatever else. But you know, I've been so lucky to have the career that I've had and, and you know, let's hope for more of that. That's, that's what I think at this point. But it's learning how to deal and channel that.

• 48:13Steven Bartlett?

  And what's your relationship like with the rest of the boys? I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but I can't imagine how it evolves.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  Great with most of them. Um, I think everyone's settling into themselves at this point. I know I am for sure. Um, uh, I had a lovely phone call from Harry the other day who was checking in on me and, and I mean, it's always like some people have got sixth sense for you, right? That you're going through something. So they'll check in and he was, he's very much like that. He's a lovely, lovely boy. I, I love him to pieces. And then, um, Louis, I, I speak to a lot.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  And we've always had a really, really close connection. And the, the funny thing for us, and I've said this a lot, but we were, we hated each other at the start. But it's almost the people that you grow closest to, you know? And I'll, I'll say it because he bought it all quite recently, but that, you know, the whole thing of the talk about the reunion, like for me, I'd rather be talked about it sooner rather than later because I don't want to.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  It's tough touring, touring that, that, that sort of record. And then, and I enjoyed touring for what I enjoyed it for, but there's parts of it that really, really fucked me up, man. In a sense, I'll be honest with you. Um, but none of us talk about it. It's like, it's taboo subject. It's like, oh, we can't get back together. What do you mean? Oh my God, like us in the same room. What the fuck is that about?

• 49:21Steven Bartlett?

  What fucked you up about touring?

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Uh, my dad said it from day one, lonely hotel rooms, man. Getting locked in that room is not fun when you've been exposed. I mean, I've come off gigs before. I did a gig in, in Dubai. I was really worried no one was gonna show up. It was one of my first solo gigs by myself. And I suppose I'm uber self critical. I'm always like, I don't know what the hell is going on. So I get to this park and the capacity for the park is like, you've never seen. I'm looking at like a park. I'm like, how the hell? And I'm thinking, we're getting paid a lot of money to be here. This is gonna be really embarrassing if nobody shows up. And I don't know anybody in Dubai, but I can't even call 10 friends to be here. So I'm like at dinner, I'm not eating my food and whatever else. And I get back to the gig and there's people chanting and Liam, Liam, I'm like, okay, there's people here. Oh my God, I can chill. I get out there and I'm like awash with this sea of people.

• 50:07Speaker 01

  And I noticed the sound system's hella quiet behind me. It's making sense. I get through the gig and you autopilot the hell out of it. When I got off stage, they're like, oh, you broke a record. You're on a list with Michael Jackson. It was 110,000 people. I'm like. And I was like, I shit, you know, I got back to my hotel room and I was sat in my room on a chair like this. And I was about to go to the Maldives with, with Cheryl and Bear. And I'm like, I don't think I can go to the Maldives right now. I can't move off this chair.

• 50:33Steven Bartlett?

  How did, how did you feel on that chair?

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Shocked. Why? Like to go from like, I don't know who's gonna be here. To then, I looked on the thing and it's like Oasis, Robbie Williams, all these amazing, you know, ACDC, all these outdoor gigs, amazing outdoor gigs. And then just me and Michael Jackson and he's in there like three or four times. He's, you know, he is the list. But I was on the same list. I'm like, what the?

• 50:57Steven Bartlett?

  Can't be easy. Like going back to that hotel room.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  And then it's, that's it. It's just muted. It's almost like, you know, like in that, in a movie where they throw a grenade and he goes. And then everyone's like, that's what it feels like. And you're like, oh my God, like.

• 51:09Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. Cause I've done nine, 9000, 15,000 in Sao Paulo. I mean, I did a talk with Obama. That's me name dropping.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 51:15Steven Bartlett?

  But, um, but it, it, they're not chanting. They're all very quiet. I mean, they clap at the end, but.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  But how did it make you feel? You just feel like a different.

• 51:24Steven Bartlett?

  I, I, I can completely relate because I, I was thinking last year, I lived in New York City, but I was, I was speaking around the world 50 weeks of the year. So I was home four weeks. And yeah, I go back to the hotel room sometime, you know, I haven't eaten because of the adrenaline. Um, and it's very lonely and you're like YouTube and room service. Yeah. But 110,000 people screaming your name and you're performing.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  I had the prince or the king or the something in Dubai dancing to strip that down.

• 51:50Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, wow. Need to get that on TikTok.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  Country where you conveniently can't strip it down, which I thought was about to go, but he was up dancing, you know?

• 51:57Steven Bartlett?

  We were talking about the touring here, the touring part really messed you up. So the hotel rooms.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:01Steven Bartlett?

  A return of one D.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I I saw like a thing of of people being like angry at X Factor this last few weeks. And I wanted to say something about it, but I didn't really know what to say on my terms. Because I feel like there's obviously going to be some people in there who are bitter. And you sign up for this show, you don't really know what the hell you're getting yourself into. But I would agree, and I we've actually gone out of our way as a team to make this possible for me. And I think a record label just bought into the idea of of what we'd made. And I was the guinea pig, right? So pick the craziest person in the room to start with. That's a good good place to start. And we made this this thing to like care for people in the industry because we don't have unions. We don't have people to look after us. And I was a kid, you know, I was a child when this happened to me.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  And I'm very fortunate to still be here today to be able to tell this story. But for most people, they feel abused or or or something in some sense. So I just think that there needs to there needs to be a self care, a care system within these shows. Because if they're gonna move people through these shows and use them to make television, they can't just like let them off afterwards. And I could never watch X Factor because I was always heartbroken because I'd been the guy who made it really far and then got let go and it ruined me when I was 14. I was crap at school, depressed, like it ruined me at one point. But I've also then been the guy who, I think my dad actually came out and said it in in a thing we were filming once. He was like, you've been told no more than any winning X Factor contestant or like any successful X Factor contestant. I'm like, thanks, Dad.

• 53:33Steven Bartlett?

  What an unusual experience.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  Wild.

• 53:36Steven Bartlett?

  If you were to tour again, would you do it differently? Would you have?

• 53:40Speaker 01

  I don't actually even know how I would tour again. I I I really want to and and like, I want to put, I I I always said throughout this solo career, I'd let my songbook speak to me. And I don't think my songbook has necessarily spoke to me enough to get me off my ass to go somewhere yet. I only became a solo artist because I had stripped that down. I wasn't gonna do it. I was gonna leave it alone.

• 53:59Steven Bartlett?

  Music?

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna leave it hell alone. I was like, I survived once, thank you very much. But now I'm back in.

• 54:06Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Because the song, I knew it was right. It felt right with the song. Whereas I haven't had that. And this this year, the song that we have, I feel really right about. So I would rather let the music do the talking than me come out and.

• 54:18Steven Bartlett?

  Turn it off soon.

• 54:19Speaker 01

  I mean, it's such a fast moving industry these days. It's one of the biggest races in the world, right? If we had a start line for how many musicians there are trying to make it right now and who's going to outwork the other one? We'd need a very big track. So it's just kind of got to that place. We don't need any more useless music in the world, in my eyes. It needs to mean something.

• 54:36Steven Bartlett?

  So there's something, you know, in a previous answer that you've said online, which is that you're lucky to be here. One of the most moving things I've ever seen, which honestly disturbed me and has stayed with me my entire life, was that Avicii documentary? And the way that his management were pushing him and he had social anxiety and oh God, it just haunts me.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  You know what with those things?

• 55:00Speaker 01

  I mean, I've spoken to managers who've lost people and different and I've definitely put strain on a lot of people in my life in the past. You see, I speak like a basically different person. I don't like talking about.

• 55:12Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's hard. It's just as hard for the team around you at points as it is for you. Because we didn't all know how the hell we got here. Everyone's kind of looking around like, we don't really know how the hell we got here. So where's the next move? And there's always someone who will pull you through. I've been very, very fortunate now with the people that I had to pull me through my bits. And it's, you know, that's why I say this care system is so important, right? We, music is the lifeblood of a lot of our things. It's the background to our movie scenes when we're sat in the back of the car looking longfully out the window. But then we don't want to look after the thing that's kind of feeding us that much. You know what I mean? So I think for artists, in a sense, they do need that. I feel that it doesn't need to get lost in translation in other things.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  It genuinely needs to be a care system. But then everyone's over therapied these days in that sense anyway. But it's like, if you want it, it should be available. You know?

• 56:05Steven Bartlett?

  Is there, was there, is there a moment where you look back and say, that was the lowest moment for me? That was the pivotal moment?

• 56:10Speaker 01

  I had a few of them. I was worried how far my rock bottom was going to be. Where's rock bottom for me? And you would never have seen it. I'm very good at hiding it. No one would have ever have seen it. But rock bottom.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't even know if I hit it yet. You know what I mean? I feel like it's like one of those little graphs you see when it's like, oh, we hit the, the, you know, the support, the market support. Yeah, we'll be there. At least it's a support level. Oh, my God. You know, it's the same thing. So it feels like I can either make that choice now and pick my last moment as my rock at the bottom, or I can make a new one. And make a whole new low. That's my choice.

• 56:45Steven Bartlett?

  You, you said online that you were, you had previously been masking your emotions and feelings. And this was something that you were trying to, trying to get over.

• 56:55Steven Bartlett?

  Said you, you tried to learn to deal with your emotions instead of masking them. How important has that been? This is something I really struggle with. Cause I was CEO of a company, you know, 27 years, 26, 27 years old, 700 employees and

• 57:08Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 57:09Steven Bartlett?

  Fucking wild, isn't it? All around the world, these adults that are double my age and I have to be, right? My business partner, he'll tell you

• 57:17Speaker 01

  You have to be assertive or what?

• 57:18Steven Bartlett?

  He fell away, right? Alcoholic, put on all this weight, depressive anxiety, fell away. So I'm carrying him because I need, because we're, we co-founders, we're seen as a unit. So when he's out in the street, and I don't, he won't mind me saying this because he's been drinking all day with the team. And he's stealing bottles of wine off other people's tables, just total strangers. And he's doing things in public, which you'd get arrested for with parts of his body that I'm not going to talk about. When he's doing those things, I'm getting a phone call. I'm 26 and I have to not only manage him, my business partner, but then I'm having to manage all the impact that's had on all of our employees. And I felt that I could never talk or be vulnerable. You are the thing I find so

• 58:02Speaker 01

  But that's why I said it's not, people don't realise it's not just, you know, and what happened to Avicii is terrible, by the way. And I haven't seen the documentary. I didn't watch, I actually knew someone who knew, who worked with him. He wrote with me as well. And he said that what he saw was going on was not good. But for the most part, for a lot of these people.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  There's usually somebody in there that's not very good. But everyone else is trying to help and you don't see the effect it's having on them as well. You live and die by the sword. I live and die by my sword. That's it. But the person who's behind trying to pick up the shield to help me. They haven't even got the fucking sword. They're just diving into battle for you. And that's the difference. You know what I mean? It's like people miss out on that bit. So it's never just on that person, you know what I mean? A lot of my stuff, you know, if I hadn't had the help I had, I don't know where the hell I'd be right now. So that's a credit to you in a sense.

• 58:49Steven Bartlett?

  It's um, it's super, super tough. I think with the um, the bit that I, I really respect you for though, is you're very open about it. You, you talk about it. You talk about going to therapy. You talk about your lows. You talk about being unsure if you would even be here. And that's gonna do a lot of good for a lot of people.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  I hope so. I mean, the, the worst bit for me is I think it seems so much as a tool these days to hide behind a point. And for me, it's never about that situation. I'm just telling you as what it is. And, and it's, that's the bit where I think, like I say, I don't want any of this to get lost in translation. I am not 1% moaning about my life. I, I, I love my life at the minute. My life's great. It's had its ups, had its downs, but it's, you know. Yeah, I think I'd rather talk about it and it's therapeutic for me. And this has been a really good chat, by the way. This is a cool chat. I like this chat a lot. There's been some shit ones.

• 59:42Steven Bartlett?

  Because I'm genuinely asking you questions that I give a fuck about.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's it. That's the point. No, and I'm telling you the thing, this is if it matters to me, not trying to hide behind some sort of bullshit thing, you know? And like I say, I think there's many people who have this effect on, on, on, on therapy and all those things and sobriety. And I ain't saying everyone at home, by the way, should go sober. I ain't telling them to go vegan. I ain't telling them to do whatever. I'm saying this is what I did and it worked pretty okay for me so far. So. You know?

• 1:00:11Steven Bartlett?

  You're making, you made a movie, you wrote a movie, right?

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  I've been working on something for a while and me and Christian spoke about it a few weeks ago. And it's funny that it's based around AA, but I had a really weird AA experience the first time that I went into.

• 1:00:25Steven Bartlett?

  What's AA for anybody that doesn't know?

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Alcoholics Anonymous. And I, my first experience was with Russell Brand, which if you've seen Get Him to the Greek or any of those other movies. I went to his house and I love Russell.

• 1:00:39Steven Bartlett?

  There's something about that sentence that I can't get over. My first experience was with Russell Brand.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Okay. I mean, yeah, exactly. All right. So I'm in his house. I'm in this dude's house and I've never met him. And I've only seen him on the movies and as a comic and I, you know, my bookie wookiee, I love that stuff. And like, so I know a lot of things about him, but I'm not, I'm a really shy person when I first moved. I'm like, oh my God, like, so he makes me a coffee and we sit talking about our experiences. And I've never seen someone look at me the way he looked at me, like, find you a man who looks at you like Russell Brand looks at you when he's listening to your stories. Cause he like looks into your soul. I was like, I was born again. And then we went to this meeting. It was an all male meeting and there was everything in the meeting from prison guards to ex soldiers, to ex cons, to post men, to bin men, to everything.

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  And then me and Russell Brand. So I'm like, this is the weirdest room I've ever been in my life. We're in like some old like community, like church room or whatever. And then he's, he's taking the chair in the room. So my first experience with AA was like the best experience ever. Cause it was like, he was just doing stand up. It was unbelievable.

• 1:01:40Steven Bartlett?

  He was doing stand up in an AA.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  No, it's like they, they have someone who chairs the, chairs the meeting. And the idea is that if they say like, oh, can you talk about relationships now as affected by alcohol? Then he'll tell the story of his alcoholism or, or, you know, narcotics thing. And then you're linking from his experience to go, oh my God, I'm the same as you. And that's how it works. Um, I'm not going to give the whole script away because otherwise I'll tell you the whole film, but I, I kind of came up with this film. And I actually, I haven't spoken to Russell Brand, which is the first thing I have to do because it was from him that this, obviously I'm in a movie right now. Like, and I'm one of the characters and I'm sat here going, I don't know what the hell I'm doing here, but apparently I'm alcoholic and I've got a problem. Oh my God, what's going on? The walls are closing in.

• 1:02:21Steven Bartlett?

  Will Carroll walks in.

• 1:02:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. The wall for Wall Street was in the corner over there. And I know it's wild. It was wild. So it's. I'm excited about it and I think it's really funny. I showed it one of my friends. And she was, she really liked it. She laughed a lot at it. So we'll see.

• 1:02:35Steven Bartlett?

  What else is, um, what else is going on in your life in terms of like business and investing and projects and stuff like that? When you think about the direction of travel that you want to take over the next 10 years, which direction do you want to focus on and go in? You're investing tons. You've got your own businesses now. Everyone's going to say the same thing to you every time you have an interview. They're going to say, when is their reunion?

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  I mean, I've had wild, my business learning curve. From the day I first got my like first cheque and I went to the manager, I'm like, what do you invest your money in? Cause he had the biggest garden in London. I was like, he's a good place to start. He had the biggest home garden, which you don't think he does anymore, Steve, do you? Okay. Apparently he doesn't anymore, but apparently he did when I was younger, he did. So I'm like trying to ask him like, what are you investing, he's like on about gold and whatever else. Then you learn about safe haven currencies and all these other things. Then I started to branch out a little bit more, a little bit more. Then I went on to properties, which was always the one I wanted to do. And then when I was 19, I nearly bought a fighting agency, which was fun.

• 1:03:33Steven Bartlett?

  A fighting agency?

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Bama. I got bought in to buy Bama when I was 19. So I roll up to this in like my Burberry coat, thinking I'm an absolute bad man because I'm about to buy like England's UFC.

• 1:03:45Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, okay. Okay. Fine.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Right. So I go to this arena in Manchester and I'm looking past it. He's not great, everything else. I'm looking at all the stuff and you're a kid, so I'm a kid. And I mean, I remember being front row of the fight and some guy behind me obviously doesn't like the band very much. Like sit out, shut up, whatever else. Every fighter then after got out the ring and shook my hand. And I just kept looking behind thinking, are you still got a, did you say? Do you know the guy with the scary clown mask could just knead that other guy's nose off? Like he's my friend. So I was like, yeah, exactly. And then, and then I went and met everybody afterwards and I got into this company. But unfortunately the deal wasn't great. I put it through one of my investors that I have. And then it's like, people try to catch you out. And this was always my biggest problem. I'm very fortunate to live in some lovely places.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  And every time someone would show up at my door to do something and the job would cost £500, they would try and charge me 50 grand because the house was big. And I'm like learning early on like and but don't get me wrong. I've spent some money on some stuff I shouldn't have spent money on.

• 1:04:42Steven Bartlett?

  You and me both.

• 1:04:43Speaker 01

  Um, uh, yeah, I mean, I won't go into detail. I lost some money. Like my thing I always say to people is like, I will tell you where I lost as much as I tell you where I win.

• 1:04:52Steven Bartlett?

  You've got to make mistakes though, right?

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100% and like my point is I'm gonna do better than whatever my last mistake was anyway. That's the point. If I trust myself enough, it won't matter in the moment.

• 1:05:02Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm. When you think about money though, you know, you didn't come from money. You didn't come from the back. When you started, I read that your dad had tons of debts and stuff like that. And so you, your relationship with money will be very, very different as you've gone over the last decade than a lot of other people, because to you, it was probably something that you thought was, you built up more when you were younger, right?

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think as a kid growing and especially if you like rap music as well, it becomes a completely different thing. Rap music made me spend a hell of a lot of money.

• 1:05:31Speaker 01

  I would say, yeah, I mean, I have one of my friends over recently and my family, my dad made decisions in our house of what was going on and stuff. And he did them for the right reasons. So I stand by that and he doesn't need to feel any pain in that whatsoever because he wanted us to go on a holiday and go to America and he would bury himself. And he was so stressed. He said at one point in his life, he woke up and he couldn't remember his own name because he was so far in debt. He was already covering the interest, which I can't imagine how that feels. I mean, it probably feels the exact same how I feel some days with the other side of it, which is wild. And we won't get into that. But at one point in my life, I mean, my friend, a professional poker player now. But he was quite a rich kid at school because he was like playing poker since he was like 13. So when we would go down to get breakfast, I couldn't afford it. And he'd buy me like 20 peas worth of toast and I couldn't afford it.

• 1:06:16Steven Bartlett?

  Hmm.

• 1:06:19Steven Bartlett?

  Nice.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Which is wild.

• 1:06:20Steven Bartlett?

  So then when you get money.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  I didn't know my family were poor, but they were fucking, you know, we were, we were not in a good place.

• 1:06:25Steven Bartlett?

  So how did that impact your relationship with money when you finally got it? Were you a splurger?

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  At points, yes, on certain stuff I would, but not, I'm more of a worrier than I was a splurger. I was like, because of where I lived and where I was from, I knew it could disappear. So I was always really cautious about protecting what I have and only spending what I earned.

• 1:06:46Steven Bartlett?

  That's money and happiness. Talk to me about the link. A lot of people.

• 1:06:49Speaker 01

  There isn't one.

• 1:06:51Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  It's a myth.

• 1:06:52Steven Bartlett?

  So.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  I think money, I think the way to think about money, and I mean, there's a beautiful thing I had as a kid. And when we used to go to church, the woman got a five pound note out and she said, have you ever read a five pound note? And I was like, no, I haven't. I was like, no. And she's like, if you read it, it says, I promise to pay the bearer of this note five pounds. So money is promises, which I thought was great. But if you develop on that and conversations I've had with people, money is, is care and the ability to relax on certain things. Life's gonna kick you in the nuts sometimes and you're gonna need something to help those around you. So it's never so much been for me about spending money on me. And sometimes I have to remind myself to shop because I'm terrible and I'm the, one of those people who like will go on a shop, fill a basket and then just not do the rest of it.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  I leave it there and I'm like, oh yeah, I feel like I bought something now. That's good. At least I did something fun with what I'm working my ass off for, but I'm not like that. So it's like in terms of with things with my family and different things that have happened, like my dad's debt for all those sorts of different reasons. I'd rather have it on hand than if something, God forbid, happens to any of us. You know, my family are the last people to ever ask me for anything and I'm the first one to go, this is why we do what we do, you know?

• 1:07:59Steven Bartlett?

  You have a son, Bear, beautiful child.

• 1:08:04Steven Bartlett?

  He tells you that he's gonna apply for X Factor someday.

• 1:08:08Speaker 01

  This is a tricky one. This is a tricky one. I think his mom's hoping he's gonna become some like yoga person.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  His mom's very chill these days.

• 1:08:17Steven Bartlett?

  He says, I'm getting Instagram and I'm gonna go do X Factor. What'd you say to him?

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  I mean, he's got the best advice from the parents around him for the long run, I guess, but I don't know. I think.

• 1:08:28Steven Bartlett?

  His dad will want to.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  Obviously we protected his identity to start off with and that's not being pretentious or anything other than the fact that I wanna give him a chance to be bear first before he has to be, oh, your mom and dad are so and so, you know? And I made my choice to be where I was at 14, 15. So I figure he can make his own choice then too. We'll have a good discussion about it, a long discussion, because I know what effects that can have as well. But I would never stop him doing something he wanted to do. I'd let him know the risks and I'd tell him what was gonna happen, you know, and, and, and better that than, you know, my parents didn't really ever experience any of the things I've experienced before I got this. They had no idea what I was signing up for. Would they change it? Probably not, but they would change some things that happened in between across the way, I bet a hundred percent.

• 1:09:13Steven Bartlett?

  He says he's gonna do the show. You give him the disclaimer and the warning. Um, what would you rather he did? If you could, as a dad, you could be that authoritarian and say, if you could choose, would it be to walk in your footsteps?

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Something that he enjoys do enjoys doing every day. And I mean, I say that lightly because I think everything that you do, depending on what kind of version you are, becomes annoying at a point. Doesn't matter what job you do, it's like, I've really got to do that again, you know? Like my dad, I used to think my dad's job was the best job ever, like building airplanes, adult Lego, like I said. Whereas my dad's like, do not end up in that bloody factory. That's the last thing you're gonna do.

• 1:09:49Steven Bartlett?

  Would you want him to follow in your footsteps though?

• 1:09:52Speaker 01

  Uh, no, I don't think he did it better than I did.

• 1:09:55Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:57Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think, um, sometimes you can get lost in the connection part of this game. And I think that's always been a difficult thing for me to connect with people because I put so many barriers up before you get to actually what's going on. That you, you know, it's almost like hurdling them in a way.

• 1:10:10Steven Bartlett?

  Why do you think those barriers are up?

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Protection. I think it's protecting people from what's, you know, if you turn up in a disguise every time, then you can always blame it on the disguise. The moment you're not wearing one, you've got nothing to blame it on.

• 1:10:22Steven Bartlett?

  And what, what is it that your, your manager over there, Stephen, would know about you that you probably most, I know, I know. In terms of like,

• 1:10:30Speaker 01

  That ain't a box you wanna open on this.

• 1:10:31Steven Bartlett?

  In terms of like what, you know, what someone who knows you very well would, um, say about you that we wouldn't expect just from what we see online. You talk, because you talk a lot about this, wearing this mask, you know, being, you're wearing a disguise, even in your relationships. I'm really trying to understand because we've been, we've been here maybe now for two hours, whatever. And as time goes on and on and on, you get to know someone a bit better. You know, and, and like my barrier goes down a bit, yours goes down a bit, we get more comfortable. And I'm like, who is that person behind there that people don't know? Because?

• 1:11:01Speaker 01

  I don't know. I, I mean, I think in certain part for me, having to translate it from music is difficult. And I am opinionated to an extent. Sometimes they can get me in trouble with some shit and I hate that. That really does annoy me because it's like, everyone's entitled to, so they wanna say about something, right? You can disagree on, you know, whatever. But I think for me, I hide behind humour a lot. I make everything I can funny. And then that will leave it to not be as.

• 1:11:27Steven Bartlett?

  Offensive. Okay.

• 1:11:30Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting. I really want to, I really want to get an idea of when you, you look towards the future professionally. What are the, what, what is the positioning that Liam Payne is, is hoping for? I guess, you know, from what you've described for bear, you just want to be doing things you enjoy.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. And I think that's, you know, there's been, there's been a slow road up to that point. And it's just doing things with the right reasons. I mean, we're in a beautiful age right now. You are your own press, which is actually great for artists if we learn to do it the right way. This whole thing I used to hate was going on and off talk shows, going on and off and doing this, doing everything else that seemed to be for everybody else. And it was promo in your record, but then the record bites and you get nothing out of it. And it's like, everybody else got their five minutes, but the record just didn't do what it wanted. So it's like, you know, I want to experiment with the way I promo my records. So make sure that the record is taken before I go halfway around the world going, oh, listen to this great song. And then no one hears it. Oh, great. That worked well. You know what I mean? But it's like almost, you know, I think the music industry and, and listen up people.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  I think the music industry is a place where people need to throw out the old, the old, you know, marketing format for these things. And it's almost like when you see companies that try and do TikToks. Don't do it like that because we can see right through what you're doing. You've made a TikTok and haha, I was supposed to laugh, but it's not funny. And it's the same for the music industry. It's like, there's a new way that people are promoing things now. You know, Billie Eilish came from a bedroom and did this and da, da, da, and it's worked out really well. But it wasn't the same format that you used back in 2010. Even on, I mean, the way the industry's changed while I've been in it has been wild. And I've only been here, I've been here a decade, just over a decade now, but it's insane. But I just think record labels and, and sometimes people spend budget on stuff that they don't need to do.

• 1:13:14Speaker 01

  You have your format, you have your fan base, grow it organically, properly, not, not through, you know.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  I don't know, the way we're doing things at the moment, because sometimes it's just like, I don't know why the hell we're doing this.

• 1:13:27Steven Bartlett?

  Social media, your relationship with it, that's been my industry for the last decade. Good thing, bad thing. What's your relationship with it at the moment?

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  I think it's good. I think it's a difficult thing to manage. I love the idea of what TikTok does, but for me, I don't want to get sucked into my phone with like watching stuff constantly. And you do, and you need to be on your, on your like learning stuff. And, and you know, it's the odd funny video, whatever else. But if your for you page is just like funny dogs and

• 1:13:57Steven Bartlett?

  Yes, fucking.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  Then you're in a, what the hell's going on? You know, that's what, that's what it does to me. I'm like, God, really? So I, I don't know, it's, um, I've seen a lot of different technology come in and go out of my industry from the time from Twitter and I, you know, I honestly think there's a strong case for saying that we owe a little bit of our success to the way Twitter was because worldwide trends weren't a thing before One Direction, before One Direction or X Factor, whereas on that night, we could trend everywhere. And then people would go, oh my God, what's this? As though, you know, magically, oh, the biggest band on X Factor was the same time Twitter came out. It's perfect storm stuff, you know?

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  So I think it's great. I think we have a funny way, like I say, with the coins that, you know, the markets just had the most weird few months of people making HoCoine, HoCoine Plus, HoCoine Extra, HoCoine, there's, and there's 90 of them. And I'm hearing all of my friends going, oh, did you buy Doggy, Doggy Doodoos 21? No, no, no, I bought Star, Star Porn over there. You know what I mean? I'm like, what the hell have we, we doing? We're talking in code? You know, and it's like that, but rather than that, the technology that works, Ripple, Ethereum, you know, things that have real world application, rather than coins that are, hey, everyone, I made a coin that's about, you know, tripods for cameras.

• 1:15:12Steven Bartlett?

  This tends to happen at the, I think at the start of these like exponential bubbles, you get this.

• 1:15:16Speaker 01

  And then it weeds out the crap.

• 1:15:17Steven Bartlett?

  Weeds out the crap.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  And that feels like what's happened recently to me, that the markets took a big dip because they're trying to weed out some of the, the stupid stuff. And because it's an unregulated thing, it's like, but I find that that's with the same with social media. We need to weed out the, the bad stuff and focus on the good.

• 1:15:31Steven Bartlett?

  A lot of, there's a lot of debate at the moment because of the racism that some footballers, footballers have experienced. Marcus Rashford did a big post the other day. That, uh, you know, how do we, how do we stop people putting monkey emojis or any kinds of like abuse on? You know, because what I think is happening from a psychological standpoint is they see Liam Payne, they think he is up there on that mountain, that is not a human being. If I throw a rock and I hit, I might get a little bit of attention from him. So they pick up a rock.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  But that's what I was saying to you at the start about bringing big look to your level in a way. But it's not so much for them that they can get away from not saying something about that. You know what I mean? I feel they have to speak about it and it's difficult. And we are going through a really fast moving era with everything at the moment. I mean, you wish there was an algorithm that would just beat that, right? But they will find some way of spelling it differently and it'll just, you know.

• 1:16:20Steven Bartlett?

  Verify, I think they verify everybody's idea. I think that would kill 99% of it.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually thought of a thing for this, for voting, because voting for me was always a really difficult thing. We all have our iPhones, we have our thumbprint that goes on. Why can't we verify via thumbprint to get accounts and then that's on your record?

• 1:16:36Steven Bartlett?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  There was that great Black Mirror episode where that woman's going through life trying to get these likes and she's like desperate, you've seen that?

• 1:16:42Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 01

  Oh my God, please, I need to be in this neighborhood. But then, oh no, I was a five star this morning.

• 1:16:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, she's like, oh my God.

• 1:16:47Speaker 01

  You need a horrible crap on the way, darling, I'm sorry. But that's what life will eventually be policed by, I imagine, in a way.

• 1:16:56Steven Bartlett?

  Speaking of Black Mirror, I guess this is a strange tangent, but I, when I had Johann Hari on the podcast last week, one of the key themes here is that all this technology in social media has like taken the meaning out of our lives because like dating now happens on these screens. People order their food by like tap, tap, tap and it shows up at the door. Even now with COVID, we're now working from screens. We used to have an office or, you know, offices we could go to, now it's all screens. And it feels like the world is getting more and more social.

• 1:17:25Speaker 01

  I mean, what's amazing is we were also worried about technology pushing us away from each other when COVID hit, right?

• 1:17:29Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  But it was the only thing that saved us, thank God, when COVID did hit, which I thought said a lot more about technology's good sides than it did about the bad sides. I mean, it's up to you how you use your platform in the end and what you let it do to you. Like I say, I enjoy TikTok, but I watch a few videos and I watch things that people send me. I don't really have a for you page. I don't really go through it constantly because this, you know.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  I mean, it's difficult with kids and screens, man. I have one and I watch him and I'm like, oh, I really wanna like, you know, we go, I make him go out and do stuff. And sometimes we fall out big. We have rows about, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not, sometimes it's not good.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  But he's learning with it, you know, and it's that it's, like you say, for all of us, we are the guinea pig generation for these things. We're learning, you know, we're the first.

• 1:18:15Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, we're the.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  To be affected by an algorithm.

• 1:18:18Steven Bartlett?

  And to be connected.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  What about the people who first experienced hay fever? They figured out their way around that, you know what I mean? It's like, for me, it seems like we will figure out the right things of it, but it's weeding out the bad sides of it and what it does. Like, I think if your TikTok screen is advice and videos about learning stuff or like stuff that you're actually really interested in, you enjoy, not just random funny crap, because that's what You've Been Framed was, right? You want to find yourself watching You've Been Framed all day? Really? Because that's what you're doing.

• 1:18:45Steven Bartlett?

  Or even worse, on Instagram, keeping up with the Kardashians, oh, look, she's amazing. She's 10 out of 10. Oh, and she's rich. Oh, her life's perfect. And look at my life, sat here in my boxer shorts, eating this pot noodle with my cellulite.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's such an illusion, because I bet you.

• 1:18:58Steven Bartlett?

  Of course.

• 1:18:59Speaker 01

  It's such an illusion.

• 1:19:00Steven Bartlett?

  But it's an illusion designed to destroy your self-esteem, isn't it? And it's like.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  But I also think there's, I think there's a fine line between these, these, these things and, and accepting, and accepting everybody and all this stuff is, is a given. But I don't think that in the process of that, we want to lose the thing to settle for ourselves. You know, there was a big debate about me on, on loose women at one point, which I was all right with. It was okay. I understood what they were saying. But I worked really hard for, for what I did in my underwear commercial, you know? And it was my, it did overtake my life in certain respects. Yeah, for sure it did, but it was actually an aim of mine. It's one of the only things I've ever dreamed for was to try and do an underwear commercial. So I remember I went to my meeting with the company I was working with and they were like, no, no, we don't want to do that with you. And I was like, no, trust me, just trust me. And they gave, to be fair, they put the trust in me. I went and trained my ass off and I got myself where I wanted to be.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  But then it was like people worrying about people's self-esteem, looking at the picture and whatever else. I get that. But I quite enjoy the idea of looking at someone and being like, wow, he's, that's cool, man. Like, I'm gonna go out and get that.

• 1:19:59Steven Bartlett?

  Want an underwear commercial?

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  I just thought I could do it. I thought I could, and I wanted to challenge myself in the gym to, it was, you know, it's, it's, it's hard to be strictly about luck in the gym.

• 1:20:08Steven Bartlett?

  Sure.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  And not function, which that was the bit I battled with myself a little bit, but it's like, yeah, I, I, I think, you know, you wanna go out and get it, go out and get it. It's, it's, but I don't think we should, like I say, in accepting everybody, let's not lose the idea of striving for something as well, though, because it's so hard to say, yeah, I'm, I'm perfect. Was that an advert I saw somewhere the other day? And I thought, are we really that narcissistic that we have to call all ourselves perfect for everyone to be okay with each other? Like, and like, I might get in trouble for saying some of this stuff, but it's just, my, like, my thought is, like, I wanna teach the next generation to strive for things as much as I wanna feel them to feel confident in themselves. But it's like, it's almost like being a parent, right? You're gonna mess them up somehow. Like, if we start saying we're perfect, I guarantee next, they'll be like, well, that's not worked out well, so let's rewrite the plan on that one.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  You know? And it's, I just think everyone, you know, give each other a break and just go do what you like.

• 1:20:56Steven Bartlett?

  Have you, have you figured, cause it's taken me some time to try and understand what it is that actually makes me happy. I used to, once upon a time when I was broke.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  This is a big one.

• 1:21:06Steven Bartlett?

  I used to, I was gonna end on this big question, but I used to think it was like, oh, I'll get a Lamborghini and then I'll be happy. And like, that's why my book is called Happy Sexy Millionaire, cause I, I thought that, I wrote in the first page of my diary at eighteen, I wrote, Range Rover, bear in mind, I didn't have a driving license and I was stealing Chicago town pizzas at the time. Range Rover Sport will be my first car. I'll make a million before I'm twenty five. I'll get a really hot girlfriend and I'll work on my body image. What I meant is I'll get a six pack. I just didn't wanna write that. And I thought, that is the goal of life. I get those things. Range Rover was my first car. I made a million before I was twenty five. And I'm like, where is the confetti? And if that's not it, then what the fuck is life about?

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  I mean, what happens when you wake up and every day is a dream?

• 1:21:43Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, I mean, I don't know.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  That'll mess you up. I often have looked for the moment in life where I bang my head and I might be in some sort of comoros dream that I've invented for myself. Like, I was that messed up at some point. I was like, I'm sure this is a simulation, guys. I must have made this wall because I can't be here because of where I was yesterday. So it was, you know, there's those wild things that if you let them creep in, they will F you up bad. Someone said to me to be quite interesting the other day, our view of what we hunt for as humans has changed. We don't hunt for food anymore. We hunt for success. So it's almost like the target went from animals and corn and food to. Frigging Lamborghinis and that sort of stuff. But that's what we strive for now. Like even to the point like you were saying earlier about you're so glad Huels here because that supplements your food sometimes.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  You're that driven by your drive that you forget you're going to eat sometimes. And I was the same at work. Oh, my God, I'm terrible. Like, I'm known for skipping lunch breaks and working through the day to get home quicker. Because I can go without, I'll just must run through. But think about that. You've gone past your basic survival instinct to.

• 1:22:44Steven Bartlett?

  You're advocating against your health for like.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:48Steven Bartlett?

  Coins.

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But I might miss this thing that I'm exactly the same. It's something I think that we struggle with in this respect. And it's like.

• 1:22:55Steven Bartlett?

  Priorities.

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  I don't know anything about what makes me happy at this point. I really don't.

• 1:22:59Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  No, I really, I've found a couple of things that I think I'm interested in. But like, the thing is, once you start making money on these scales and things that happen, it only becomes the drive that's interesting to you if it's going to fast forward you somehow. And that's not that toxic thing that we, funny enough, we've come full circle. But that's, it's the same sort of thing. And I think, I think it's a big problem for me. Because if it's not, I'm thinking, why am I? And that's why drawing for me was the biggest one at the time. Because I was like, this is what children do. Why should I do this? And then funny that I drew something that was about being a child. It's weird how things go full circle in that respect. But yeah, it's, I often struggle to get on with something if I don't think it's forwarding me in life somehow, rather than just enjoying the moment or going out and watching the sunset.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  One of my, one of my biggest things that made me happy while I was training was 4am, getting up in the dark. And this sounds like I am some sort of psychopath, and I was. But you're like, go into the park, run for a little bit and then stand on the thing and watch the sunrise was the best thing. And you know why? It's fucking free. You can stand and watch a sunrise and go, wow, thanks for another day, sort of thing. And all that sounds really woo-sar and like really far out spiritual. But I didn't, for me, it wasn't like that. I just enjoyed seeing how beautiful this moment was. And I was the only person in Hyde Park, running at 4am every single day. And it was some of the best time I've had in life.

• 1:24:16Steven Bartlett?

  They've done studies kind of linking to what you're saying there where if they give someone a game, and I wrote about this a little bit in my book, if they give someone a game that they enjoy, people will do it, blah, blah, blah, and they'll have high motivation to do it. If you then pay the same person to do the same game, their motivation will decrease.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  I have a big problem with this.

• 1:24:34Steven Bartlett?

  So you can love doing something and then the minute the reward starts to become extrinsic, which is external, which is money, your motivation decreases. And this is why it's very, very important, even for me with this podcast, I started it because I love doing it, love meeting people. When it starts becoming a commercial thing, it moves into being a job. And then the science says my motivation will decrease. So it's interesting though, because you talked about your drawing, you started drawing because it was a, and then it becomes this, and it becomes an NFT, and it becomes a business.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  And it gets hard to do.

• 1:25:02Steven Bartlett?

  And then you're like, oh my God, I don't want to do this anymore.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  I'm here again. Yeah, exactly.

• 1:25:05Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:25:06Steven Bartlett?

  You said you've not figured out what makes you happy.

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  Definitely not yet now. Ask me in a few years.

• 1:25:12Steven Bartlett?

  And I think, I mean, so what's my conclusive point been for what makes me happy? Professionally, it's super clear for me now. Having a, and these are key words, so a worthwhile challenge that I'm doing with people that I love. And I've, I've come, I've come up with that based on a ton of things. Some of the things that you've said fit perfectly into it. When you look at Tyson Fury, when he's not in the gym, depressed. When you look at gold Olympians, whether they win or lose at the Olympics, they get depression because they've reached the mountain top and there's nothing else to strive for. And so when I was going through my notes, I was thinking, the day that someone offered me 50 odd million to buy my business was one of the worst days of my life. And Gary Vaynerchuk, I know you're doing some

• 1:25:55Steven Bartlett?

  stuff with him, he says the same thing. When I spoke to him on the podcast, he was like, the day when I buy the New York Jets will be the worst day of my life. He was like, I hope it happens on my deathbed. Because not having something to strive for.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  And this has been a big struggle of mine for many, many years.

• 1:26:10Steven Bartlett?

  You lose orientation, right? When you're training for the Olympics, we're going this way, this is our purpose in life. When the Olympics is over, you ain't got no fucking direction.

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, look at this, and talk about direction. My, that whole thing for me and that mountain for me was one D.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  And music after that, like I said, you're never gonna keep up with what we did. Like, we sold so many records and we did so, we broke so many records, we did so many things. You know, I mean, we were in stadiums every day, ninety four thousand people every day. Like, I was in like, I used to break into Wembley Stadium on the night time because it was fun. And I was smashed. And I thought, these people aren't gonna recognize me. I've broken into every major stadium in America, honestly. And the people used to chase us on these like, police like little squad bikes, being like, hey, sir, you're not supposed to be in here. And we'd run because it was like a game of tag. I swear to God. There was this one time, we, we opened up a door and found a Zamboni. You know, the thing that swashes the ice? And we accidentally emptied the, like, two ton of water on the floor. I don't know, I might have to pay for that now.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, once you reach that height, I suppose one of the reasons I struggled the most out of it is because you're never really gonna reach that height again. And then it's almost like, uh, limbo. And also not knowing whether or not we're gonna come back. Are we gonna come back? Everyone's asking. And it feels like pressure to come back. It's almost like your, your parents going, when's Baby Two coming? You know what I mean? It's like, oh my God, now we're gonna have another one. So, that's, that's wild to me. And, and, and having to deal with that at a young age, and it was, I was always gonna mess it up somewhere. Is what I would say about myself. Because that's, like he says, the worst day ever. You know, the day the band ended, I was like, thank Lord for that. And I know a lot of people are gonna be mad at me for saying that, but I needed to stop, or it would kill me. And I was like, thank the Lord. And then after that, trying to like, funnel your way back into society, be like, hey, guys, I'm still here.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Turning up at Tesco's in a Lamborghini like an idiot, you know? I'm like, what the fuck am I doing? And, and, and for a lot of that, yeah, I, I agree with a lot of that, that, that statement. It's, you need to have something to strive for. And I feel like I'm finding that a little bit more now. And learning to relax.

• 1:28:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you've talked a lot about this.

• 1:28:11Speaker 01

  Learning to relax, learning to just be, you know, a lot of people go, be part of the moment, man, be in the moment. And like, I'm like, this is bullshit, but it's true. If you can just sit, you know, and enjoy something for what it is for five minutes.

• 1:28:24Steven Bartlett?

  Have you tried meditation?

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  My ex, uh, Cheryl is very big on meditation. She sent me one the other day and I got told off for not doing it again. Meditation gets me in trouble these days. No, I need to, I, I, I did a couple of things of meditation with my old personal trainer that were quite good. But I just, my mind's so fucking busy.

• 1:28:46Speaker 01

  I can't shut it up. Like the moment I'm trying to not think about something like, oh yeah, but what about if we just did this next week? And I know you'll be exactly the same. That's why I'm saying.

• 1:28:53Steven Bartlett?

  I'm like trying so fucking hard with this meditation.

• 1:28:55Speaker 01

  Let's do it together. We're on a journey.

• 1:28:57Steven Bartlett?

  Every morning and I'm like, Steve, close the tabs. And every morning I'm sat there.

• 1:29:00Speaker 01

  I love that expression.

• 1:29:01Steven Bartlett?

  Floor of my shower. Cause it's like, it's like, it looks like it's from Thailand and the water's pouring and I'm like, just don't think about anything. And then I'm like, I'm planning all that scheduled in my head. I'm like, Liam's coming for the podcast and what, what shall I speak to him about? And then, you know,

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  What were you doing? The two senses thing where you like, think of like what you can hear and what you can smell?

• 1:29:18Steven Bartlett?

  I've tried all of them. I've tried this one with beads where you like hold the beads and you just move the beads through your hands.

• 1:29:22Speaker 01

  Simulation, like, yeah, yeah. I like the two senses ones. Not bad. It's good in the shower as well. If you like, close your eyes, then pick two senses which you can choose like feel.

• 1:29:31Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, interesting. I've not tried that.

• 1:29:32Speaker 01

  So your mind can only do two senses at once. So once you shut some of them off, that's technically meditation because you're in the moment. But I still don't feel like I've had that. You know, I'm not a monk at this point. I wish I was.

• 1:29:43Steven Bartlett?

  I think it's important though.

• 1:29:45Speaker 01

  I do. I get it. I do understand it, but I also think.

• 1:29:48Steven Bartlett?

  Imagine if you could get your mind just to be in the present moment fully and just be right here.

• 1:29:53Speaker 01

  Done that at school, I'd have been, I'd have been top of the class, but my mind's going, oh yeah, what are we going to do? Lunchtime.

• 1:29:59Steven Bartlett?

  I'm gonna, I'm not going to give up. So I'm going to keep trying every morning naked on the, on my, my bathroom floor.

• 1:30:03Speaker 01

  Now that's what I want to think about.

• 1:30:06Steven Bartlett?

  Worthwhile challenge with people you love. So worthwhile, you define it yourself, right? Challenge means it can't be easy because then your motivation, motivation won't be high. And then surrounded by people you love. For me, that is where I've figured out my happiness lives. And so upon leaving my company that I'd founded for 10 years, now I'm like, learning to DJ, doing a big theatrical play at the Albert Hall, which we've directed and produced. I'm just trying, throwing my hand at everything, biotech.

• 1:30:32Speaker 01

  No, I'm the same.

• 1:30:33Steven Bartlett?

  You know, and, and that's what I was thinking with you, from what you were saying, you're like, you're never going to top that mountain. So where's, what is the mountain?

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  I mean, we've done so many random, you know. The trip to Namibia with Ant was one of the things and we did a world first of a canyon swing in Namibia, which was really crazy and wild and I thought I might die on national television. That is okay. What else did we do? Doing this NFT thing's really interesting. Doing the online shows because we were one of the first people to really like pioneer with the company. The things that I, you know, my team were massive, massive behind that. But it was almost like making a TV show every week with new songs and songs that I hadn't sang since whatever, songs I'd never heard before. And I just would turn up and do it and we did really, really well and I loved that. I don't know. I've had, I think I've had many, many, many jobs. I've got like a laundry list to the point where when the census came, I didn't know what the hell to write.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  I didn't want to write performer because I think it just sounds like such a bodge off job of like, it doesn't, it doesn't encapsulate anything that I actually do. I mean, we designed clothes for Hugo, underwear modeling, da, da, da, da, da, loads of stuff. So.

• 1:31:37Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think maybe you just need a really big fucking scary terrifying goal that you really care about?

• 1:31:43Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, someone had asked me to go and do Everest at one point and I was like, I don't know, I might die on that one.

• 1:31:49Steven Bartlett?

  But does that make you a little bit like, right, now we've got something to aim for, get in the gym?

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, in a way I'm already, there's something I'm cooking up in my brain. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna talk about it here. The case does come off, but I'm cooking something up at the moment. It's very gym orientated and I'm definitely going to give it a big, big go. Some things piss me off.

• 1:32:05Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  And I thought I just had to do it. I think the one thing I'll say, what the one thing I'll say about success and about these things, if I'm honest about happiness, I think it's learning to have respect for yourself. I mean, there's a lot of things people say about, don't base yourself on others and never look at other people in that way, which I actually think you need to throw out the window. Because there's, when I was like, it's almost weird. I learned it from my character design. When I was designing characters, I didn't start from nowhere. And how I learned to design characters was like, how do you make a dragon if you've never seen one? I didn't know what dragon, they won. So they mix it with a, with a, exactly. This is funny. So they mix it with a lion, mixed with a snake, mixed with a crocodile, mixed with a dinosaur. Because they're the ones that we have. So they base them off of stuff. So I like, look at people who are my heroes and I think,

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  what is it that I love about them that I don't think I possess yet? And then that's how you know you can respect yourself. And I think that's the most important thing for me is I forget up in the morning, I respect myself. I go to bed. On nighttime, I respect myself. I'm happy. But certain things about my life, even this moment, I want to change, but it's like. Christian Bale, for example, I love his acting go to. And I mean, some things he's done in his career have been really unhealthy when he did The Machinist and stuff like that. But I like that drive and I like the fact that he like buries himself into a role and stuff. And I've never learned that quite yet. So that might be one of the things I want to.

• 1:33:22Steven Bartlett?

  Still.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's almost, yeah, it's like taking people's stuff, but you're molding it into your own character. We were talking today about avatars, which is obviously a huge market at the moment. People spend so much time on their avatars, on their games when they start something, but in life you are your avatar. You do whatever you want. And it's like, if you're making your avatar and you've got to go and do 10 free kicks to earn the next Ronaldo boots, you're like, oh, I'll get in there and do them. The moment someone asks you to do something in life to earn something, you're like, I don't want to do it. But it's like, that's why I was trying to think how we explain that to kids. But that's the most basic analogy I can come up with, you know?

• 1:33:55Steven Bartlett?

  Children's book.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Children's book. I had an idea for children's book, actually, but we didn't finish it. That's a lot of the root things about it. Look at my, he's smiling at me.

• 1:34:05Steven Bartlett?

  Well, Liam, we've talked about so much today, so much, so much inspiration. And, you know, a lot of the questions I ask are based on.

• 1:34:13Steven Bartlett?

  Amazing, amazing conversation. And I really, really respect and appreciate your willingness to be open and honest about all these things because you're helping so many people, you don't even realise it.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  I do hope so.

• 1:34:22Steven Bartlett?

  You know, and I think you're just a tremendously inspirational guy. You're, you know, an incredible entrepreneur, which I don't think people are fully appreciated yet because you're very, you know, you've not sort of disclosed all of the investments and businesses you're involved in. But I think that's certainly coming. I think we might have a bit of a European Ashton Kutcher on our hands, if I say so myself. But yeah, thank you, mate. Honestly, you know, you've been through what is a unique, just tremendously unique experience over the last decade. Nobody can understand it other than probably the boys you did it with. And from that, you know, there's ups, there's downs, but this is life, right? And you sharing it has brought tremendous value for me. So I know it will definitely bring huge value for our audience. So I just want to say thank you.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  No, I think, mate, honestly, this has been one of the best chats I've had in a long time.

• 1:35:08Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  And I'm excited to see what you bring to the table on Dragons Den. I can't wait to watch it.

• 1:35:12Steven Bartlett?

  I'm buzzing, I'm buzzing. Maybe you can come in with some of your ideas there.

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  I know, I'll come and pitch something.

• 1:35:17Steven Bartlett?

  Can you imagine? You should be a dragon one day. I was actually thinking.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Coming into skies. We'll do one week where I'll like ant and deck the shit out of you. And I'll just come on and be like, right, I've got this idea for swimming pools on roofs.

• 1:35:27Steven Bartlett?

  Would you ever be a dragon?

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I think I'd be a terrible dragon. I don't know. I feel bad for people and I want to be like, oh, no, just like, I'll buy it.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  I'll take it. Thank you, brother, appreciate you. I appreciate, thank you.