Pod Insights Silicon Valley Girl: AI, Tech and Career Growth CEO of Microsoft AI: The Next 10 Years Will Change Humanity Forever | Mustafa Suleyman About this episode In this episode of Silicon Valley Girl, Marina Mogilko sits down with Mustafa Suleyman, CEO of Microsoft AI and co-founder of DeepMind, to explore how AI is reshaping the future of work, education, and everyday life. Mustafa has spent the last decade building the systems that sparked the modern AI revolution. Today, he’s leading Microsoft AI and shaping how billions of people will interact with intelligent agents in the coming years. From the race toward AGI to the rise of AI assistants that remember everything, Mustafa offers a rare inside look at where the next decade is heading. He shares why routine work is disappearing, what jobs will matter most, whether children will even need college, and how superintelligent systems could change the rhythm of a normal day. This conversation is a clear, grounded roadmap to the future — and to the skills we’ll all need to stay ahead.
🔗 Follow Mustafa on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mustafasuleymanai
Links:
Follow my Newsletter: https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/ https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/
My Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/ https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SiliconValleyGirl https://www.youtube.com/@SiliconValleyGirl
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/marinamogilko https://www.linkedin.com/in/marinamogilko/
X: https://x.com/siliconvalleymm https://x.com/siliconvalleymm
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
0:31 Speaker 01 Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Whether it's hot yoga, over 100 degree weather, or too much sun. Gator Light, with a specialized blend of five electrolytes, was scientifically designed to help move fluids into the body faster for rapid rehydration. Shop now at retailers nationwide. Gator Light hydrates faster than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.
0:59 Marina Mogilko? Are we in an AI bubble?
1:03 Speaker 03 This is Mustafa Suleyman, co-founder of DeepMind, one of the first companies to teach machines how to think. Today, he leads Microsoft AI, one of the magnificent seven shaping the future of our world.
1:16 Speaker 04 It's the smartest, most capable technology you've ever invented. It's improving faster than anything we've ever seen. And it's very important that we keep reminding ourselves of that. Like in 25 years' time, a large portion of the population are going to struggle to compete in the workplace with AI.
1:32 Speaker 03 With that power comes a question none of us can ignore. Because the same intelligence that builds our future could also rewrite what it means to be human.
1:40 Speaker 04 These things don't suffer. They don't feel pain. They're just simulating high-quality conversation. So we've got to be very careful about that.
1:48 Speaker 03 AI isn't just learning, it's starting to live with us.
1:52 Speaker 04 Your personal AI is just going to have ambient awareness of what you're trying to do and talk to you in real time. It is going to remember everything in the future and be perfect if you choose for it to do that.
2:02 Marina Mogilko? So if it remembers everything, what's going to happen to our brains?
2:06 Speaker 03 They don't sleep, they don't forget, they don't feel, but they're learning faster than we ever imagined. So the real question is...
2:13 Marina Mogilko? What happens to us next?
2:17 Marina Mogilko? Mustafa, welcome. Thank you so much for being here.
2:20 Speaker 04 Thanks for having me.
2:21 Marina Mogilko? The first question, everyone's talking about it on YouTube right now. Are we in an AI bubble?
2:28 Speaker 04 Uh, yes. So, no, we're not.
2:32 Marina Mogilko? You don't think so?
2:33 Speaker 04 I don't think so. I think, um, when you kind of think about it, we are creating something that is truly magical. Um, intelligence is the thing that has made us successful as a species. Um, and we're now distilling that into a smaller and smaller unit. Um, that can be spread all over the world and that is going to be cheap and widely abundant. So that's just a remarkable thought, like.
3:04 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, but we kind of had the same thought, you know, during dot com crash, like we're inventing internet, blah, blah, blah. But there are some companies that, you know, their valuations are much higher than their revenues. And like everyone's talking about Nvidia investing and then that revenue going back to Nvidia. What do you think about that?
3:19 Speaker 04 No, I, I, I think the value that we're going to produce in the next five to 10 years is going to be unprecedented.
3:25 Marina Mogilko? So you don't think we're going to experience something like, you know, two thousand eight, COVID?
3:30 Speaker 04 I mean, who knows? But I, I think if you think, just focus on the fundamental value that's being created. This is the best prediction engine anyone's ever seen. It's the smartest, most capable technology you've ever invented. It's improving faster than anything we've ever seen. It has got more easy to shape and control, not less. Three years ago, we thought that it was going to get more chaotic and more disorganized, so we weren't going to be able to sculpt it. And now we're producing beautiful, powerful, amazing experiences that are surprising us every month. So, yeah, I know, I, I'm genuinely very bullish.
4:04 Marina Mogilko? Okay, so you're not worried? You're good. And we shouldn't be worried. Okay, that, that makes me feel better. Okay, let's talk about AI becoming more conscious. Uh, you talked about it in one of the podcasts that we perceive AI more and more as human.
4:20 Speaker 04 Yeah.
4:21 Marina Mogilko? Uh, how fast is it happening? What's gonna happen in the next few years.
4:25 Speaker 04 It it is getting more human like, um it's getting more accurate, it's getting more fluid, more smooth. And that is unprecedented. At the same time, it's definitely not conscious. Um it isn't aware of itself, it can't speak about itself. It, you know, it's very different to what it's like for a human to have a subjective experience and to feel pain and suffering. And it's very important that we keep reminding ourselves of that because consciousness is the basis of our rights based framework. And it is the thing that gives us responsibilities as citizens in societies that allows us to vote, which allows us to be subject to the law, which creates order.
5:07 Speaker 04 Like, you know, we can't begin to attribute this quality to a new species. That would be terrible for our species.
5:16 Marina Mogilko? But we saw stories of Google, the story that you told in your book, of Google engineer who was convinced by AI that it was experiencing sadness and it was afraid of being shut down.
5:27 Speaker 04 True, true, yeah. And that was an anthropomorphic projection. People, you know, just because it has some human qualities, doesn't mean it has all of human qualities, including subjective experience. And I think we can prove that it doesn't have subjective experience, that it isn't going to emerge this kind of self-awareness. That's just a sci-fi fantasy. And I understand why people sometimes go there because we've been schooled on sci-fi for as long as forever. And it's a natural assumption to make, but these things don't suffer. They don't feel pain. They're just simulating high quality conversation. And that is magical and it feels amazing, but that doesn't mean that it is something, it feels something internally to be one of these models. So we've got to be very careful about that.
6:12 Marina Mogilko? Because some people talk about our kids having real relationships with AIs in ten years, like getting married to AIs. Do you think it's something that could potentially happen? And if yes, how can we prevent that?
6:24 Speaker 04 I think the history of the human condition proves to us that if it's possible, someone will probably do it. You know, people do crazy things, but. The majority of people don't. The majority of people are pretty sound of mind and pretty sensible and just wanna live healthy, happy lives. And so if some people choose to marry their AI in twenty years' time, I'm not gonna kinda sit here and necessarily judge that or say, don't do it, or do do it. If you ask me my opinion, I don't think that these should be treated as entities that are of equal moral significance to humans. I think that they should be in service of humans. They should work for us. That's why we invent technology.
7:04 Speaker 04 You know, I love the technology behind this microphone because it amplifies our voices and distributes them to millions of people on the internet. That is a technology that is in service of humanity that's doing good.
7:16 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
7:16 Speaker 04 That's all we want. And I don't necessarily think that, um, you know, these are an idea of superintelligence that is autonomous, that can self-improve, that can set its own goals, that can act independently of humans. That, to me, doesn't feel like a positive vision of the future. Uh, it would be very hard to contain something like that or align it to our values. And so that should be the anti-goal. That's not what we're trying to build.
7:42 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
7:43 Speaker 04 In my opinion, we're trying to build a humanist superintelligence, one that is aligned to our interests on our team in our corner, backing us up. That's the great project that we're engaged in at Microsoft with Copilot.
7:56 Marina Mogilko? But then again, a lot of people are talking about AGI. Is that similar to superintelligence or how would you define both of those?
8:01 Speaker 04 Yeah, you can think of AGI as a step before maybe superintelligence, but roughly speaking, they're fairly, yeah, used fairly interchangeably.
8:10 Marina Mogilko? Because Demis, your ex-co-founder, mentioned we could achieve it by twenty thirty. Can you talk about what it means for society?
8:17 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, I, I think achieving human-level performance at most tasks, I wouldn't say all knowledge tasks. Um, that feels quite likely in the next five years. I think it's a fairly grounded, uh, prediction. You know, if you think about it, these models already do many tasks better than a human. I mean, you know. Summarization, translation, transcription, research, document writing, maybe even arguably poetry or some parts of literature or whatever. So you can see that they're taking steps towards being as good as a human at being a project manager or being a marketing person or an HR person or having a tough conversation with somebody about a diagnosis for a medical condition they have.
9:01 Speaker 04 So it is going to fundamentally change work in the most profound way. It's going to change the type of work that we do. You know, 10 years ago, it wasn't possible for you to do the job that you're now doing. But with streaming content, you don't need a big team around you. You don't need to be part of a big institution. So we've democratized access to the power of broadcast with the arrival of the internet and streaming and podcasting. That's amazing. Now with these models, we're democratizing access to intelligence. So you don't have to be a really privileged, wealthy, educated person that has access to capital to be able to found a company, to hire a great team.
9:44 Speaker 04 You're going to have a team of intelligences around you that are the best lawyer, the best doctor, the best teacher, the best project manager. And that is going to create unbelievable amounts of competition because the distance between an idea and the realization of that idea is going to collapse. That's an amazing thought.
10:06 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
10:06 Speaker 04 People are just going to be thinking new companies into existence, new products, new pieces of poetry.
10:12 Marina Mogilko? But you said people. You said people, like my concern.
10:16 Speaker 04 You and me. Like you're going to have an agent around you that is going to be able to execute on that idea.
10:21 Marina Mogilko? You know what my concern is with superintelligence? That AI is going to come up with ideas. Cause like, why would it need, like, why do we need to come up with ideas if AI has all the information? If we're talking about a marketing business, for example, it can identify gaps in the market, come up with a website, launch the ads, do the business. Do you think that might happen?
10:40 Speaker 04 It'll definitely happen. It'll definitely happen. You're going to have a team of agents around you that can do more and more of the tasks and arguably do them autonomously. But that comes back to what we were saying before about containment. Containment is the project of making sure that these AIs have limited scope.
10:58 Speaker 04 And check in with you and are accountable to you and are working on your behalf. And so the creative challenge for technologists is to say, what are the limitations? What are the guardrails? What can it not do? When does it have to seek your approval for an autonomous action? And, you know, we've, we've done this many times in past moments of technology, right? We invented the combustion engine almost a century ago, and that over time became cars and trucks and so on and so forth. But the amount of regulation that we put around those vehicles to make them work for us in service of humanity. It's unbelievable, right?
11:38 Speaker 04 Seat belts and vehicle emissions and streetlights and freeways and speed limits and driver education. There's so many different components that go into that. And I think this is going to be no different. We're going to have to figure out what are all the regulations and guardrails that go into managing, you know, autonomous agents so that they always work for us.
11:57 Marina Mogilko? Let's imagine superintelligence. What does my day look like then? If AI is capable of so many things, what is this thing that is very specific to humans and is going to stay with humans?
12:09 Speaker 04 Yeah, I think that great technology helps you get bad technology out the way. And that's the test. Like, it is kind of annoying to use a graphical user interface today on your desktop. If you think about it, if you just take a step back, you go to your computer and you've got all these windows with different colors and different brands and different menus and information hierarchies and different settings. And you have to learn each app for its own sake. And we don't think of it as advertising, but when you open your computer, you kindly have a bill, you kind of have a billboard of all these different competing apps that are like, use me, try me. It's kind of distracting. It's kind of ugly.
12:53 Speaker 04 I just want to be able to turn to my AI and be like, I need this task done. Solve it for me. Buy it for me. Book it for me. Create it. Check in with me at the right time. Get my permission, you know, get my feedback. Brainstorm with me, whatever it is. But you're gonna start to see the operating system, the browser, the search engine, the apps. All of these are gonna slip away as your personal humanist superintelligence takes over a lot of the day to day work of browsing, searching, planning, booking, thinking, et cetera.
13:26 Marina Mogilko? So it's no longer gonna be a computer, you think?
13:29 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, less and less. Um, I think we'll have different kinds of devices like tablets, wearables. It'll be much more ambient in five to 10 years.
13:39 Marina Mogilko? Imagine it's 2040 and we're in this kitchen. What things are obsolete? They don't exist anymore. And what do I have to make my life easier?
13:49 Speaker 04 Okay, so I think there will probably be some kind of household robotic arm. Probably, I don't know if it'll be a humanoid walking around, but certainly you would have a a mounted system on your, on your, uh, on your counter.
14:04 Marina Mogilko? Here.
14:04 Speaker 04 I think, yeah, it will learn to use all the different appliances. So probably you'd have many of the similar appliances that you've got today, but the AI is just gonna learn to use them in the way that you would use them. I think some people imagine that the entire thing is gonna look totally different to suit the AI. But actually, it's not like the robot is just gonna learn to do the things that you do in the way that you do it. So you're still gonna wanna use a kettle. I mean, that kettle is, you know, hundreds of years old. We've been, you know, making cups and handles like that in the same way. So I think that stuff will remain the same.
14:33 Marina Mogilko? So the hand or humanoid, what are you leaning towards?
14:37 Speaker 04 I think the, the, the hu- I mean, 15 years is a pretty long way out, so it probably will be humanoid. But I think the challenge with humanoid is like the physical, the risk of it being physically in your space. I think it's gotta be very, very accurate and very reliable. And handling hot things around children and the elderly, and you can imagine all kinds of complications. So I think it'll be technically feasible. It would just be a bit of an adjustment to people get comfortable with it.
15:05 Marina Mogilko? What about devices? Do you think I'm gonna have like, I don't know, an AI projector? Uh, and like tap on the air as it and, and get instructions on how to cook things? Or is it gonna be glasses?
15:17 Speaker 04 I think that you're gonna just have it in your ear. So I think that, you know, your A I is, like, your personal A I is just gonna have ambient awareness of what you're trying to do and talk to you in real time. So.
15:30 Marina Mogilko? So it will have a camera.
15:31 Speaker 04 Mm hmm.
15:32 Marina Mogilko? In my ear.
15:32 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:33 Marina Mogilko? And it was, oh.
15:34 Speaker 04 Yeah.
15:35 Marina Mogilko? Interesting. I don't think anyone's working on that.
15:37 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, it's very hard to miniaturize that today, so it's still a bit of a way off, but by twenty forty, definitely. And you'll have other wearables on you. I mean, look at how cool this mic is at the moment. It's tiny, super light.
15:48 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
15:48 Speaker 04 Um, so in time, that'll have a camera on it as well and have ambient awareness.
15:52 Marina Mogilko? Okay, so robotic arm, wearables, anything else?
15:55 Speaker 04 And then I think those, that ambient awareness is gonna mean that the entire kitchen is just way more proactive. Proactively ordering the food and just checking in with you, like, oh, I know that you've got a lot of guests coming this weekend. Should I order all the stuff for the barbecue?
16:10 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
16:10 Speaker 04 All of that stuff will just happen seamlessly in the background.
16:13 Marina Mogilko? And the car will go and pick it, pick stuff up.
16:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, we'll definitely have self-driving cars by twenty forty that basically do most of that, yeah.
16:20 Marina Mogilko? Please.
16:21 Speaker 04 Or maybe there'll be little bikes or different form factors, because, you know, it won't necessarily need to look like a traditional car.
16:27 Marina Mogilko? Are there any markets where you think people should be pay paying attention to if they want to stay ahead in this A I race? What are the most exciting markets?
16:37 Speaker 04 I think by far the most exciting new market is medicine.
16:41 Marina Mogilko? Hmm.
16:41 Speaker 04 Um, I think at the moment, the quality difference between the top ten percent and the bottom ten percent, even in the United States, let alone rest of the world, is is unbelievable. The gulf is like, um, probably an order of magnitude is huge.
16:53 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
16:54 Speaker 04 Um, and again, that's gonna completely collapse, because everybody is gonna have access to medical superintelligence, and it'll cost twenty bucks a month. Like, it is gonna be remarkably cheap.
17:07 Marina Mogilko? And talk to me about what you just released, Harvard-backed research, right? Within Copilot, if I ask a medical question, how is it gonna work?
17:16 Speaker 04 Exactly. So now, I mean, we find that, like, about forty percent of our queries each week are health-related.
17:21 Marina Mogilko? Forty percent?
17:22 Speaker 04 Yeah, four zero, it's pretty remarkable. Like, millions of people a day are. Asking health related queries. So we decided to really focus on improving the quality of the health answers. And part of doing that is that we ground the answers in citations from Harvard Medical, which is an amazing kind of gift to the world, like the most respected health institution. Um. And we also do the NHS in the UK and we'll be doing other health systems over time. And so people now get really high quality, very reliable, you know, pretty accurate. Like sometimes it makes mistakes. It's not, you can't rely on it yet. You always have to go see a doctor, et cetera. But if you think about it, most of the time in healthcare situation, people are trying to make sense of a complicated technical
18:06 Speaker 04 set of language that they don't really understand. They're probably anxious or worried, so they want to repeat things lots of times. They want to get it explained in a very simple way. And sometimes they want help actually making a decision about who to go see. So we also now have recommendations for physicians. You could go see a doctor, you could see a dermatologist, you could see a physio, and we will find someone that fits your uh preferences. Like, you know, maybe, you know, you want to see a woman physio who specializes in sports massage because you're a cyclist and you want them to be local to your area. And so we can make that recommendation. Copilot does that directly inside of the app in chat.
18:46 Marina Mogilko? That is awesome.
18:47 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's it's so cool to see that taking off.
18:50 Marina Mogilko? I love that. I need to ask about my cholesterol levels. We're gonna do this today. Like you mentioned that access to knowledge is now democratized. What's going to happen to traditional education? Will we see the standard like bachelors, masters, where we basically spend five or six years just acquiring knowledge?
19:07 Speaker 04 Yeah, I don't think so. I think that knowledge acquisition is going to be a conversation between you and, you know, Copilot. So for example, another feature that we just launched today, in fact, is this learn live feature. So you actually have a tutor shows up on the screen and it will lay out a quiz for you on any topic that you like. So it doesn't have to be a school curriculum topic. You might be learning about cacti or, you know,
19:34 Speaker 04 Persian rugs. It will give you an education on it, lay out the kind of curriculum piece by piece, give you a nice quiz, present it in a nice graphical user interface. And so knowledge acquisition is about to get completely decentralized and available to everybody. And you just have an expert teacher in your pocket on any subject.
19:54 Marina Mogilko? Does this mean all education businesses are dead? I'm thinking about my apps.
19:59 Speaker 04 I think it's the opposite. I think education businesses that adopt these kinds of AI tools and integrate them as quickly as possible, that they're really going to flourish. It's happening like that for everything. I mean, now in Copilot, you can also generate a podcast, literally in a minute. It's a great introductory thing. Like the other day, I generate, I don't really follow football or like soccer, but I do support Arsenal because I'm from London. And when I go back to London to see my friends, I want to like, you know, know what I'm talking about a little bit. So I asked Copilot to generate me a podcast on how Arsenal is doing in the season and what the latest is with the transfers and who are the best players and stuff like that. So just like fun, you know, simple bits of information are perfect.
20:42 Speaker 04 And now I'm in the gym, listening to a little five, seven minute podcast about that.
20:46 Marina Mogilko? Going back to knowledge and education, should I be saving for my kids' college or not? They're five and four.
20:52 Speaker 04 Um, so so fifteen years' time.
20:55 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
20:56 Speaker 04 Um, probably not.
21:01 Speaker 04 There you go. I don't know. It's really hard to judge. I'm not sure that we will value a Stanford education um that costs, I don't know, what does it cost? Fifty grand a year or something?
21:15 Marina Mogilko? More.
21:15 Speaker 04 Is it more? Something crazy?
21:17 Marina Mogilko? Fifty is a private school here.
21:19 Speaker 04 Right. I mean, I just, I don't, I think that we're going to have world-class expertise on tap that costs.
21:28 Speaker 04 Twenty bucks a month.
21:29 Marina Mogilko? But what if, like, for example, right now I'm educated and like I studied maths, economics, so I can have these conversations. If I completely abandon acquisition of knowledge, how can I have an argument? It's not like I'm always talking to my phone, right?
21:43 Speaker 04 Well, you could, you could still argue about stuff. If anything, it'll probably make us all more argumentative because we'll be even more knowledgeable. We wanna be exchanging ideas with people, right?
21:51 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, I mean, but you base your arguments on things that you've acquired when learning something.
21:56 Speaker 04 Yeah, but you, you, that, that's kind of my point, is that the knowledge acquisition in the traditional form, in the classroom, you know, with the textbook, that's gonna shift entirely. So the classroom is gonna look more like practicing using your knowledge.
22:11 Marina Mogilko? So you'd acquire more knowledge if I do it the other way around with A I?
22:14 Speaker 04 Exactly.
22:15 Marina Mogilko? Okay.
22:15 Speaker 04 Cause then as a kid, you're gonna be able to talk to your A I tutor at any time during the day. You're gonna learn from the A I podcast, you're gonna learn from the A I video that is gonna be generated. So all the kind of straightforward teaching is gonna take place, you know, with the student and the A I. And then when you come into the classroom for your day, the students are gonna be talking to each other about the knowledge that they've acquired from their A I and debating and learning to, you know, be more empathetic and be better listeners and adjust their tone and, you know, that kind of thing.
22:50 Marina Mogilko? So what do you think, uh, parents should be teaching their kids now?
22:53 Speaker 04 I think it's still important to be good at, like, learning knowledge from first principles yourself and not depending on the sort of A I tutor leading you through. Like, I think one of the most important things is from school is the discipline of being able to teach yourself. That's a meta skill and that, you know, that, that comes with friction. So I think as a parent, you still have to introduce, like, discipline and friction into the process because if it comes all too slowly and it's always on tap, you know, then the, then there's a risk that the child could just get used to having everything instantly available and doesn't learn from the hard work, um, you know, the benefits of hard work, which I think are important. So that's like something to think through.
23:37 Speaker 04 Now that everything is going to be so seamless.
23:39 Marina Mogilko? Another question I wanted to ask you, for everyone who thinks that they need to be technical in the age of A I, you have philosophical background and you're head of A I at Microsoft.
23:50 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, I I think that it's easier than ever to understand what's being built. Like, everything is available on YouTube. You know, there are so many courses, the curriculums for all of the major C S classes, machine learning classes are available for undergraduate, uh, master's level even.
24:08 Marina Mogilko? Is that how you learn?
24:09 Speaker 04 Yeah, like I've watched, I watched Andrew Ng's course back in the day, uh, which I encourage everyone to look at. There's just so many classes. I I watched maybe ten years ago, I think, when he was at Coursera and it first came out.
24:21 Marina Mogilko? Wow.
24:22 Speaker 04 And I've just watched so many of those. So it's very accessible. And I think if you just have a logical mind, you're patient, you're disciplined with your own learning, it is actually very, very easy.
24:30 Marina Mogilko? That's great. So anyone, well, basically, anyone who learns can become head of A I, build an A I company without learning how to code and.
24:36 Speaker 04 Yeah, because the skills now, I mean, it's still good to be able to learn how to code, but the primary skill is in synthesis. Like, the goal is to bring together all the different disciplines of U X and research and product and the aesthetic and also large scale distributed systems, training big models, doing the hardware, like, you know, so I think that people who are multidisciplinary and can straddle those different technical disciplines are going to get rewarded most.
25:02 Marina Mogilko? Yeah. Well, this is so inspiring. You've released the memory feature, right? So, uh, A I is going to remember everything about us. I don't know how it's gonna, I haven't tried the copilot yet, but with other A Is, I see how it forgets. Like, I just tell it and then I ask the question and for some reason forgets and I have to remind it. Is it gonna be a problem? Have you, have you tried it?
25:23 Speaker 04 It doesn't have infinite perfect memory, but it does remember specific durable facts. So it will remember that you have a preference for, I don't know, pineapple on pizza and that you like going running on a Sunday morning or whatever.
25:37 Marina Mogilko? Or like my measurements. That's the thing that my A Is keep forgetting.
25:40 Speaker 04 Oh, really?
25:40 Marina Mogilko? Can you choose the size from this website? Oh, I don't have your measurements. I'm like, no, yes, you do.
25:44 Speaker 04 Oh, interesting.
25:45 Marina Mogilko? And we're like, oh, exactly. I do have them. I experienced this forgetting problem almost everywhere.
25:51 Speaker 04 Yeah. I mean, we're working on a good knowledge representation as well. So you can go and edit the AI's memory of what it knows about you. And if you ask Copilot today, what do you know about me? It will produce a pretty long list. It's not entirely definitive. So it won't be absolutely everything that you've ever told it. It is selective and it chooses what to remember. And you can tell it to remember certain things like, please remember that my size and so on.
26:13 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
26:14 Speaker 04 Yeah. But it is gonna remember everything in the future and be perfect if you choose for it to do that. And of course, you can delete it and control it and edit it as you wish.
26:21 Marina Mogilko? So if it remembers everything, what's gonna happen to our brains?
26:24 Speaker 04 Um, I think people said that about calculators, right? Like, you know, people aren't gonna have to memorize their times tables anymore. They're just gonna use the calculator.
26:33 Marina Mogilko? But you know what? When I was preparing for GMAT, the test that you have to take for an MBA, they don't allow you to use calculators. And there are a lot of numbers. I remember then that two weeks after the exam, my brain was so fast because I trained it to calculate. And then it gradually slowed down and I lost this again.
26:49 Speaker 04 Do you think that that transferred into other areas of your knowledge because you're good at memorizing the numbers?
26:55 Marina Mogilko? No, I think it was just related to numbers.
26:57 Speaker 04 It's sort of the risk, isn't it? It's like, you know, I used to be able to memorize a lot of telephone numbers as a kid, because I.
27:03 Marina Mogilko? Because you had to.
27:04 Speaker 04 Yeah, I didn't get a cellphone till I was like fifteen. I think I was one of the first people to get cellphones in my year at school. And before that, everyone just remembered telephone numbers. Uh, and now I can barely remember my own phone number from, you know, my own house.
27:17 Marina Mogilko? Yeah. Do you think it affects our brains or are they just developed in a different way?
27:22 Speaker 04 I don't think so, because my brain is now stimulated in a lot of other directions. Um, you know, it's a muscle that you don't exercise, but in turn, you focus on other aspects of your brain. And so I think that we're way better at synthesizing vast amounts of novel information compared to like, you know, people in the fifties or our ancestors two hundred years ago. We're completely bombarded with stimulus, right?
27:47 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
27:48 Speaker 04 And so I think that's interesting. It's had an interesting effect. In some respects, it's made us a bit more polarized. In other respects, it's made us much more empathetic. Like, we don't fear. You know, people of color or people of different sexualities or women. And a lot of that has got to do with just being aware of others and spending time with them and watching them on social media and behave in different ways. And and that has driven a lot more empathy, actually. People often focus on how it's driven a lot more disagreement, and it has. But it's also driven so much more understanding um and, you know, respect and forgiveness and those kinds of things.
28:26 Marina Mogilko? So in general, do you think we're getting dumber with AI or not?
28:30 Speaker 04 No, I don't think we're getting dumber. I I think that it's it reduces the barrier to accessing information and it actually makes us a lot smarter. You can ask any question now, and many people are. So questions that were previously going unasked because the cost of going to a library and pulling a book off the shelf and talking to librarian was too hard. It took like four hours to get an answer to some question. Like now you can go to the web and then after the web you can answer, ask a perfect question in a conversational way to a chatbot. So I think that's driving more collective intelligence and more um awareness and understanding of our world.
29:06 Marina Mogilko? Can you talk to me about some killer features that you think people are underutilizing right now with AI? Like you implement something and then you save like an hour a day. So for me, it was asking AI to add things to my calendar, provide my emails, search through my emails. Uh that has saved me a lot of time.
29:26 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, I think one of the super exciting features is this thing we're calling connectors. So co-pilot connectors. And you can just say to co-pilot, hook up my Gmail, hook up my calendar. You can do it in Teams, you can do it with your Dropbox, you can do it for any basically source of data that you have about yourself. And then ask co-pilot any question about it. So scheduling, booking, searching for content, and it will actually integrate that knowledge into its answers as well. So if you say, oh, I'm planning to go here at the weekend, it'll be like, oh, but you've already made this appointment here. Or uh you know, so it would that they will seamlessly have that contextual awareness about you. It's a really cool feature.
30:07 Marina Mogilko? So even if I ask it, ask it to schedule something, it's going to tell me like, oh, you have a conflict.
30:12 Speaker 04 Yeah.
30:12 Marina Mogilko? Oh, nice.
30:13 Speaker 04 Or or or it's going to just be like, you know, you're interested, I I I, you know. I was reading from you like, you know, where you went on vacation last year when you did your travel planning that you really enjoyed. You know, Greece or something like that. And so you you might want to try. You know, whatever.
30:28 Marina Mogilko? What is your personal favorite use case?
30:31 Speaker 04 I use voice three or four times a day and I use it at the end of the day as well for kind of journaling and talking. I have it set up on my iPhone in the power button. So I'd literally just press the power button straight away goes into voice mode. And then I kind of talk to co-pilot on the way home and I'm driving home.
30:49 Marina Mogilko? So you talk about your day or?
30:51 Speaker 04 Yeah, talk about my day.
30:52 Marina Mogilko? Like journaling?
30:53 Speaker 04 Yeah, it's totally journaling. And then it then it will remind me what I've said in previous days and it will help me think through a tricky problem I have and it kind of maintains state for me. It's like a second memory.
31:05 Marina Mogilko? Wow, I love this. It's like second memory journaling that has all the information and then yeah, helps you with your decisions.
31:13 Speaker 04 It does. Yeah, it's very cool.
31:14 Marina Mogilko? That's fascinating. Do you ever worry and knows too much about us?
31:18 Speaker 04 Um, no, I I think that as long as it's useful and it's got a purpose, I don't mind. And I think that's also the story of technology so far, right?
31:30 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
31:30 Speaker 04 Everybody uses the camera and uses location and knows their search history is helping personalize search, so.
31:37 Marina Mogilko? Like you said, we have to be careful about it. Elon Musk is very vocal about containing AI. I think Geoffrey Hinton said that we'll have to be plumbers if we don't learn how to work with AI.
31:51 Speaker 04 A plumber, did he?
31:52 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, because like we're still not there with robotics to do certain tasks, especially like when every house is custom, right? So it's not a standardized task. But with intelligence, it's like we're getting to a point where, you know, people either learn to do something with hands or become entrepreneurs and use AI to bring their ideas to life, or then you're out.
32:13 Speaker 04 No, but I think it's making all of us way more creative because people have access to tools in a way they never had before, right? Not not just access to information, but access to experimentation. But you can take an idea, generate the product for it in an image, you can generate the technical specification, you can get the documentation for your marketing campaign. So you can simulate all of these things ahead of time before you've even built. And deployed something.
32:38 Marina Mogilko? What if you're not entrepreneurial enough? I'm just thinking about people who are like, I just wanted to like standard thing every single day.
32:44 Speaker 04 Yeah, yeah.
32:45 Marina Mogilko? I just feel good about it.
32:47 Speaker 04 Right, right. But is that an A I problem or is that is that a?
32:50 Marina Mogilko? I think it's an A I because those like, because sta- like those standardized tasks, something that's super repeatable is being replaced.
32:58 Speaker 04 Yeah, but I it depends on your default assumption about the human condition. I don't believe that the majority of people do want to work on a toothpaste packing line, just screwing in the top of a toothpaste tube. I think that people want creative work. I think people want to pursue their passions. They want to, you know, be led by their own interests and curiosity. And um we shouldn't valorize or you know, sort of idolize like routine work. Most people, I think many people do jobs that they would love to get rid of and pursue their passion. And I think A I lowers the barrier to entry to you pursuing your passion.
33:41 Speaker 04 Um, no, quite often you might be in a partnership with your husband or your wife or your best friend. And they might not be as interested in collecting stamps or, you know, sort of like keeping snails or, you know, great shoes as you are, right? And then that's unfortunate. Like now, you know, you have an A I that knows everything that you could possibly think of, um, you know, about your stamp passion.
34:08 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
34:09 Speaker 04 Uh, and I think that's cool.
34:10 Marina Mogilko? What about adjusting to this speed at which A I is developing? During the Industrial Revolution, workers destroyed machines that replaced them. Could something like that happen again?
34:22 Speaker 04 That's natural. It's healthy to express fear and frustration um publicly and be open and vocal about it. We shouldn't shame it. People are afraid.
34:33 Marina Mogilko? Yeah.
34:33 Speaker 04 And it's very understandable. Um, but the history of science and technology tells us that net net, these tend to be, or at least so far, they have been incredibly positive transitions. We've made like automation has lifted billions of people out of poverty. You know, our average life expectancy over the last two hundred and fifty years has gone from about thirty to about seventy five, right? That's unbelievable, like the people are living three times longer, pretty much. And that's two as a result of all of these discoveries and all this science and so on. So I think so far, so good. And I I do think that the trend is headed in the right direction.
35:16 Speaker 04 It doesn't mean that there won't be consequences and side effects. And like you have to be very open minded to that and very like conscious of it. It is gonna happen.
35:25 Marina Mogilko? Do you think in our case we'll have UBI to
35:30 Speaker 04 I hope so.
35:30 Marina Mogilko? Problem because we've never had it before and you think this is the
35:33 Speaker 04 I think we do have it. I mean, that's what our taxation system does. It decides who to, you know, redistribute from and who to redistribute to. And incentivizes certain types of behavior.
35:46 Marina Mogilko? Hmm, I like it. Think about it.
35:47 Speaker 04 Um, and so we do, we do have a large scale redistribution mechanism today. Um, wealthier people do pay more taxes than people who don't, uh, pretty much.
35:57 Marina Mogilko? Us.
35:58 Speaker 04 Sort of, it's pretty roughly true, it's true. Certainly, income tax, um, not so much on capital gains tax, it's true. And so we've done redistribution before and we'll have to do redistribution again. Um, I mean, the, the, the truth is these are labor replacing technologies. And you can debate the timelines, but I think you can certainly say by twenty fifty, like in twenty five years' time, I think there's going to be significant structural disemployment. I think that a large portion of the population are going to struggle to compete in the, in the workplace with, with AIs. And we're going to have to decide, uh, whether to shorten the working week.
36:39 Speaker 04 Or whether to, you know, increase taxes on some portion of capital. Or indeed, like, some portion of high-earning incomes. And how to redistribute that, because that's what civilization is about. It's about bringing everybody with us and not just, you know, a few.
37:00 Speaker 00 This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.
37:30 Speaker 05 Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.
38:00 Marina Mogilko? 100%. And do you think the governments will be working on that or large companies will have?
38:05 Speaker 04 I think the governments have to lead it. I mean, it needs to be democratically accountable and there's no question that it needs to be led by governments, but, but companies are gonna, are gonna be the ones footing the bill. They, you know, companies are gonna be the ones that are driving this massive transition. I mean, Bill Gates said many years ago now, like six or seven years ago, that we need a robot tax. The only way to do it is to tax the robots, right? And tax, essentially what that means is tax capital. Um. Because intelligence, which was previously the domain of labor, like people, is now getting converted into capital. It's going to be turned into a commodity that can be sold and resold infinitely. And so that's where the value transition is going to happen. And so taxation has to follow that value transition.
38:49 Marina Mogilko? He called your book his favorite book on AI. So you wrote your book a few years ago. Uh. Is there something that has changed completely that you couldn't predict when you were writing this book?
39:00 Speaker 04 Change completely?
39:02 Marina Mogilko? There was an update about two thousand twenty four, when you said the wave is here, the wave of AI.
39:06 Speaker 04 Yeah.
39:06 Marina Mogilko? Uh. What is the two thousand twenty five update to your book?
39:09 Speaker 04 Yeah, good question. So in the book, I sort of laid out this framework of capabilities. There was IQ, the intelligence quotient, which is kind of like the factuality and the knowledge citations and stuff. And that was about hallucinations. And I predicted that they were going to be largely eliminated. And I think pretty much we're on track. Pretty much they are. Uh. There was the emotional intelligence, which is the tone and style of the personalities of these things. And then there was the AQ. So IQ, EQ, AQ. AQ is the actions quotient, like the extent to which it can get things done, book your calendar appointments and stuff like that. The bit that I missed um is SQ, the social intelligence.
39:54 Speaker 04 And like today, actually, we're launching this new feature copilot groups. And it's the first time that you can chat uh with up to thirty two other people and copilot all in one group. So if you're organizing a trip or you're uh
40:12 Marina Mogilko? Like working with your team, no?
40:14 Speaker 04 You're working with your team or you're, you know, trying to like plan a care pathway for your parent or sibling or something like that. You can have the family or your friends or your colleagues in a single group chat, all seeing the same context, all asking their own questions. And the cool thing about the social intelligence of Copilot is that it can change its tone and style and responses to each individual person in the group. Knowing that like your mum might want a different type of explanation to your younger brother or something. Um. And it also remembers the the types of jokes that people like or the history that you have talked about. So if you say that you're really into, uh, you know, tennis or something, then it's going to remember to talk to you about,
40:58 Speaker 04 you know, Wimbledon or whatever it is, right? And that's social intelligence. That's what we do as humans. We can manage the room. We can adjust our style and tone. I didn't expect us in twenty twenty five to design AIs that are really could good at IQ, knowledge and and factualness, have really pretty good personalities, can actually take actions on our behalf and can manage group settings. The group thing is very exciting.
41:25 Marina Mogilko? Wow. Well, where does this lead us uh in ten years, this particular quality of AI?
41:30 Speaker 04 I think it's going to be the main frontier. I think it's going to be the most interesting part. Because those group settings will involve other humans joining them. So it could be a professional joining, like a a lawyer to give legal advice. And then that lawyer is going to bring their own AI paralegal to fact check or to summarize. Or it could be the doctor and you will have spoken to your AI doctor for half an hour before the human doctor comes in to the same chat. And the AI doctor will have summarized everything, briefed you, talked to you through everything, reassured you, answered twenty five questions. And then you talk to the human at the end for a shorter time and get the full feedback from the human.
42:11 Speaker 04 And the human doctor knows that its AI is the one that has been approved and it relies on and it kind of reflects there. Um. So you'll have humans and AIs of different types all in the same group setting.
42:23 Marina Mogilko? Zoom call.
42:25 Speaker 04 Yeah, kind of like a Zoom call or a Zoom chat. You know, it's like, it's basically like, well, I mean, that's what is Copilot groups. You know, there's going to be group chat all the time.
42:32 Marina Mogilko? Wow. Okay, this is so fascinating. Thank you so much.
42:36 Speaker 04 Pleasure. Thank you for having me. This has been really fun.
42:38 Marina Mogilko? Yeah, thank you.
42:41 Speaker 06 When you shop Kroger Delivery, you can expect the savings you love and fresh groceries delivered right to your door. From delicious produce to everyday essentials, enjoy the convenience of delivery and the trusted selection you've come to know from Kroger. Because bringing you fresh, quality groceries is what we do best. Right now, enjoy free delivery on orders of $50 or more with your digital coupon. Restrictions apply. See site for details. Kroger. Fresh for everyone.
43:11 Speaker 07 Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.
Previous How AI Is Breaking the Rules of Biology | Dr. Priscilla Chan, Chan Zuckerberg Initiative Next GM CEO Mary Barra: How AI Will Redefine Driving by 2028 Page updated November 1, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated