183. “I saved $5k for an engagement ring, but she secretly took the money”

Michelle (33) and Matt (31) have been dating for seven years, but they’re stuck in relationship limbo, waiting to get married until Michelle deals with her financial problems. Michelle makes great income as a nurse, but she has a mountain of debt from student loans. Matt works in finance, and tries to help, but Michelle has loan payments and debts that he doesn’t even know about. Today we’ll see if we can unearth the root of these money problems so Michelle and Matt can take the next step in their relationship. This episode is brought to you by: Grammarly | Easier said? Done. Save time with one click. Sign up and download for free at https://grammarly.com/ramit. Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to https://masterclass.com/ramit. Our Place | Use code RAMIT to receive 10% sitewide at https://fromourplace.com. DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to https://joindeleteme.com/ramit for 20% off. Fabric by Gerber Life | Protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. Apply today in just 10 minutes at https://meetfabric.com/ramit. Links mentioned in this episode • Get tickets to Money for Couples LIVE coming to a city near you in January Connect with Ramit • Pre-order my upcoming book: Money for Couples • Get the Podcast Newsletter and watch me analyze an anonymous couple's spending each Saturday • Get Money Coaching with Ramit • Download the Conscious Spending Plan • Listen to my book—now on Audible • Get my New York Times best-selling book • Get my no-numbers journal • Other episodes • Instagram • Twitter • YouTube If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here. Produced by Crate Media.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ramit Sethi?

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• 2:14Ramit Sethi?

  On today's episode.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  I pretty much got myself in a huge student loan debt.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  I don't have debt like that, so seeing that now it's just like, what do I do here?

• 2:22Ramit Sethi?

  Meet 33-year-old Michelle and 31-year-old Matt. They've been dating for seven years and they are stuck in relationship limbo.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Pretty shocking just to see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.

• 2:34Ramit Sethi?

  Michelle is a nurse with a good income, but she has a mountain of debt that includes credit cards, personal loan and student loans.

• 2:41Speaker 01

  Coming here is going to be the only shot I have because I literally don't even understand why I do it.

• 2:47Ramit Sethi?

  Matt works in finance. To him, money is simple. He just follows his system.

• 2:52Speaker 02

  She just needs to be more responsible and held accountable.

• 2:55Ramit Sethi?

  Yet despite Matt's health, Michelle is paralyzed by the size of her debt. She's worried Matt is going to leave her.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  I'm worried that he's going to realize that like he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible.

• 3:09Ramit Sethi?

  Can I help Michelle understand the root of her money problems? So she can turn this around and create a rich life with Matt? Have you ever taken money from him?

• 3:24Ramit Sethi?

  I've got Michelle and Matthew's CSP in front of me, getting ready for our conversation. Let's take a look. Zero assets, $47,000 in investments, 263K in debt. Since they don't have any assets, it's probably not a mortgage. It's likely student loans, maybe there's some credit card debt, maybe a car loan. Moving down to income, Michelle makes a lot more than Matthew, but as I move down the fixed costs, I can see Michelle's debt payment is $2,542, while Matthew's is only $136, probably suggesting that the bulk of that $263,000 debt is Michelle's. Hmm, what's going on here? Okay, overall, Matthew's numbers seem fine.

• 4:07Ramit Sethi?

  Michelle's numbers are a different story. Investments, pretty low. Miscellaneous spending is high. Could be that she's overspending. It seems like it. That's interesting. Let's see what's going on on their application. "We don't live together. We had to move back home because we couldn't afford it. He doesn't trust me with money. I'm very scared he won't trust me to have kids with me."

• 4:33Ramit Sethi?

  We aren't engaged and it's holding our future back from moving forward. I want to feel some self-worth. Looks like there are a lot of factors at play. Pretty big stakes in terms of moving the relationship forward, which is stagnant because of money. We're talking about marriage, we're talking about kids. I think this is going to be a pretty substantive discussion. Let's meet Michelle and Matthew.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  You said in one podcast, "If psychologically you don't understand why you're doing it, you're going to continue doing it." And like the patterns with money. And I'm literally in that position where I have no excuses for myself anymore because I don't know why. It's so big and it's so overwhelming and it's like, like it's even bigger than me that I can't even realize it.

• 5:23Ramit Sethi?

  What do you mean, why?

• 5:24Speaker 01

  Like my relationship with money.

• 5:25Ramit Sethi?

  What is your relationship with money?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  It's not good. It's not really existent. I've worked since such a young age. I have no money saved. I have a lot of debt. It's just not...

• 5:42Speaker 01

  It's not a healthy relationship. So when I signed up, I was like, "I think you're really the only person that can help me." I want to pay off all my credit card debt, pay off all those debts first and then also pay off my student loans. I feel like I'm constantly in debt to people because of my mistakes and I'm... I just don't want to owe anyone anything. I'm worried that he's going to realize that like, he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible.

• 6:23Ramit Sethi?

  Has anyone ever told you that you can pay off your debt? No one, right? You can? Let's talk about money in your relationship. So how long have you been together?

• 6:36Speaker 02

  I would say about seven years.

• 6:38Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. And I understand previously you lived together and right now you're not. How long did you live together before you both moved in with your parents?

• 6:49Speaker 02

  So we moved in together in like November of 2022. And then we moved out in January of this year.

• 6:57Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so basically a little over a year living together.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:00Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, what happened that caused you to move out?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  We came to the realization that we'll just save money living at our parents' house. And then hopefully one day be able to afford to buy a condo or a house or an apartment.

• 7:19Ramit Sethi?

  Cool.

• 7:19Speaker 01

  Spending a lot, like trying to fix the place, but it was like already kind of rundown.

• 7:24Ramit Sethi?

  And were you both okay moving back to your parents?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  No, I wasn't.

• 7:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, why?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Because I knew that it was gonna suck.

• 7:33Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, okay. What about for you?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  For me, they're like my roommates now, but I have no problems with them. And they accept me for, you know, being able to come back. They're always trying to help me and.

• 7:45Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, cool. I appreciate. So you moved out, you moved back to your parents. So it's you and your mom.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  And my sister.

• 7:52Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, okay. And living situation wise, how is it?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  The three of us?

• 7:57Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  It sucks.

• 7:59Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, how come?

• 8:00Speaker 01

  Because I feel like I'm the mom. So I'm the one that cooks. I'm also the one that spends at the grocery store the most because of that. And so that's one thing. I also feel like I'm just like, like the one that they go to for everything. Like, it just always feels like I'm responsible for like my two kids, like my mom and my sister.

• 8:25Ramit Sethi?

  You ever have a problem saying no in your life?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:28Ramit Sethi?

  A lot of things, right?

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:30Ramit Sethi?

  Personal? Yes, professional?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:36Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 8:38Speaker 02

  She says no to me. No problem.

• 8:40Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, is that true?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  No, sometimes I recently realized that I am a people pleaser.

• 8:48Ramit Sethi?

  You recently realized? I realized it in five seconds. What do you mean you just recently realized it?

• 8:52Speaker 01

  And I remember that it was something to do with like.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  My, I don't know if it was with my, my mom, like always doing favors for them.

• 9:02Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Um, or if it was with my sister, where I even like sometimes put it before even like doing something with Matt. Like, I'll even be like, no, I have to do this for them. And if my sister was having like, uh, she got out of a breakup and it really was a lot on her. I would always be there for her instead of like, leaving to his house, which is like my space, like safe space.

• 9:29Ramit Sethi?

  Interesting. The space that the two of you had together was your safe space, even though the rental was not particularly great, right?

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Honestly, wherever like he is, that's my safe space.

• 9:40Ramit Sethi?

  Wow. That's, that's pretty much the nicest thing you can hear.

• 9:45Speaker 02

  Very nice. Thank you.

• 9:47Ramit Sethi?

  And yet, you moved back into this tumultuous household. Where you are de facto, the person who cooks and manages all the responsibility. What do you make of that?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't put myself first.

• 10:07Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh. Why?

• 10:10Speaker 01

  I don't find myself worthy. I feel like when I do these things that they want me to do, or if it makes their life easier, um,

• 10:26Speaker 01

  that makes me worthy. I guess like it gives me a sense of worthy.

• 10:31Ramit Sethi?

  Has a chance to. Maybe if I cook this one dinner, maybe if I listen to my sister's challenges with her relation. Maybe if I do this and that and this, then they will.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Respect me.

• 10:44Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Do they?

• 10:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 10:47Ramit Sethi?

  Maybe if you give it 10 more years.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:49Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:51Ramit Sethi?

  Or maybe there's a completely different way to look at this whole situation. Because while you have put yourself back in that situation, what have you taken yourself out of?

• 11:02Speaker 01

  My future with Matt.

• 11:04Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. And meanwhile, what's going on with your finances as you moved in? Presumably, you're saving a lot of money, right? No, not paying rent anymore, are you?

• 11:15Speaker 01

  I, I am.

• 11:16Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, what? How, who are you paying rent to?

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Uh, my dad.

• 11:21Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Uh, how much you paying?

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Three sixty.

• 11:25Ramit Sethi?

  Three sixty? What were you paying when you and Matt were splitting it?

• 11:28Speaker 02

  It was like six fifty.

• 11:30Ramit Sethi?

  What? Hold on, like when people move in with their parents, I have no problem people moving in with their parents. But I'm like, cool, you're gonna save like a thousand bucks a month or two thousand bucks a month, saving 300 bucks a month? And now you're cooking, doing all this stuff? Are you basically losing money now, living with your family?

• 11:46Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 11:47Ramit Sethi?

  This doesn't make any sense to me. Not only the relationship, the financial part of it.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:53Ramit Sethi?

  What the hell's going on right now?

• 11:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not sure. I didn't know she was losing money.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like I'm always losing money being there.

• 12:01Ramit Sethi?

  Did you hear what Michelle just said? She moved back in with her family to save money, but she's actually losing money every month now. And Matt didn't even know. This is a very telling example of how money is not simply about numbers. So many of us make financial decisions because we feel we should. We feel we should save money, so we simply jump from one thing to another. I need to move back in with my parents. I need to buy a house. I should cut back on brunch. We are missing one essential thing. Actually making big financial decisions using real numbers. And if you really listen, you hear why. Did you hear the words Michelle used to describe herself?

• 12:45Ramit Sethi?

  I'm a people pleaser. I don't find myself worthy. Matt is my safe space. She knows something is wrong. But without knowing how to probe into it, she defaults to her worldview of not trusting herself, leading to her moving back in with her parents. I'm curious to learn more. So let's get back to how they talk about money in their relationship. When was the first time you had a real conversation about money?

• 13:17Speaker 02

  I don't think we've ever had a conversation about money.

• 13:19Ramit Sethi?

  In seven years?

• 13:21Speaker 02

  She doesn't really like talking about that.

• 13:23Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  And then I also don't push her on it because she'll be writing in a planner, let's say of all her bills. I'll go over to take a peek and she's like, no, no, no, stop, don't look. I do keep peeking, but it's always the same thing.

• 13:37Ramit Sethi?

  You go across the room and you pull out your binoculars.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  You go, what, what's on that? Like set up a mirror behind her.

• 13:44Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you think that Michelle says no, no, no about you looking at her finances?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Probably because she's embarrassed.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am. I've even told him, I'm not ready to show you, even though it's been seven years. It wasn't until recently, honestly, that we had this coming up that I actually was upfront about it in general.

• 14:04Ramit Sethi?

  You sat down and talked about the numbers?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  We didn't sit down and talk.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  She filled out the CSP and that's where I saw the number.

• 14:11Ramit Sethi?

  First time?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 14:12Ramit Sethi?

  What was that like for you?

• 14:14Speaker 02

  Pretty shocking, just to see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.

• 14:20Ramit Sethi?

  And what was it like for you to do the CSP?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Honestly, it was very overwhelming. It was like depressing at the same time, just because I saw like the debt ratio and it was literally all mine.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  It's just kind of like a letdown. I don't know where I went wrong with everything. Or I just never started right, I guess, but it's just like a letdown, especially now that I have like my, you know, adult job and knowing that I make decent money and knowing that I have nothing to show for it is just like, it just, it just puts me down, honestly.

• 15:01Ramit Sethi?

  It's kind of interesting, the way that you talk about money because you're early 30s, right?

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Thirty-three.

• 15:08Ramit Sethi?

  In a way, it's like you're talking about money like you're 75 years old, like, oh, I just wasted my life. I got nothing to show for it. But when I look at it, I go, you're sort of at the beginning of your career. I'm seeing a young woman who has a professional career as a nurse, maybe didn't learn about money.

• 15:28Ramit Sethi?

  And you're starting off. What do you think about the difference in our perspective?

• 15:33Speaker 01

  I wish I would think of it like that a little more because I'd be a lot easier on myself. Um, maybe a little more forgiving for the mistakes I've done. I feel like my own worst enemy when it comes to money especially, like it's something, it's so embarrassing and so shameful. Like I feel like I just carry like, you know, like this scarlet letter with money. It's something that like takes a toll on me. And I feel like I judge myself based on it.

• 16:06Ramit Sethi?

  Can you read back some of those words you just said to me? Did you catch them? Scarlet letter, forgiveness.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:13Ramit Sethi?

  Worst enemy, not even worst critic, worst enemy. What else did you say?

• 16:20Speaker 02

  Shame. The main one was the scarlet letter. I thought that was pretty interesting.

• 16:25Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think about that?

• 16:28Speaker 02

  Pretty brutal to compare yourself to that.

• 16:30Ramit Sethi?

  Talk to yourself a lot like that about money?

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:33Ramit Sethi?

  And other things in life too?

• 16:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:38Ramit Sethi?

  And then Matt, do you talk to yourself like that about money?

• 16:41Speaker 02

  No, I have like a good system, I think, where I just, you know, get paid, pay my bills and then whatever's left over is what I either invest or, you know, kind of save.

• 16:52Ramit Sethi?

  Quite a different perspective on money, right? Shame, judgment, scarlet letter. And then Matt, you use the word system. Doesn't seem emotional to you at all.

• 17:04Ramit Sethi?

  So how did the two of you relate about money?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  We don't. Every time I'd watch the show when it was on Netflix, I would cry. Um, just because it's so relatable. They all said stuff that I've said and to him, he's just like, no, well, it's not that hard. You just have to pay it. And I'm always like, it's not that easy.

• 17:26Ramit Sethi?

  Money is different. Why?

• 17:29Speaker 01

  I honestly have no idea. I'm definitely irresponsible with it.

• 17:34Ramit Sethi?

  Notice the pattern of Michelle avoiding money conversations and ignoring money herself. When she finally confronts it, she immediately uses words of deep shame and guilt. You can see this so often in people's relationship, for example, with food. It's not as simple as telling them, "Just eat less," or "Just spend less," when you truly understand the psychology involved. Hearing someone talk about themselves like this always makes me sad. Think about it, most of us would never, ever talk about our friends like this. We would never call our husbands or wives these words. Yet, some of us use these words with ourselves, over and over, for years.

• 18:19Ramit Sethi?

  And we really start to believe it. We'll delve deeper into Michelle's money psychology after this quick break from our sponsors. When I started I Will Teach You To Be Rich over 20 years ago, business organization platforms were not really a thing, especially for small businesses. Massive companies had big bespoke CRM software, but I was just a college kid trying to get to Taco Tuesday. Now, if you already have a business, you don't need to cobble together random tools like I did way back then. Instead, make things easier on yourself and harness the power of AI using NetSuite, this episode's sponsor. NetSuite is the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all of your data.

• 19:02Ramit Sethi?

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• 19:50Ramit Sethi?

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• 20:34Ramit Sethi?

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• 21:20Speaker 02

  She just needs to be more responsible and held accountable for herself.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  I always let bills pile up and because an insurance lapse, I guess that happened back in April, I had to give my registration like in, and so technically was suspended. And so now I technically don't have it. Like, I can't drive it for two months because of that.

• 21:47Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. So what do you do?

• 21:50Speaker 01

  Literally rely on my parents taking me somewhere, like to my work.

• 21:55Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  I don't go anywhere or him getting me. It's only been a week with it. You know, I'm responsible for like people's lives at...

• 22:05Speaker 01

  You know, as my profession and then it's like, hey, mom, can you get me from work? It's just kind of like.

• 22:10Ramit Sethi?

  I'm not laughing at you.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  No, I mean.

• 22:12Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  It sucks.

• 22:13Ramit Sethi?

  But let's get to the root of why it happened. You didn't file the registration. Why?

• 22:18Speaker 01

  There wasn't enough funds because I spent it in other stuff that I shouldn't have been.

• 22:24Ramit Sethi?

  Which was what?

• 22:26Speaker 01

  Food, ordering Uber Eats. When I get home from work, I don't want to cook anything. And then living at home, like, like I said, my mom doesn't cook, so nobody's cooking for me. So, uh, just wanting to order something.

• 22:41Ramit Sethi?

  What do you get?

• 22:43Speaker 01

  It's really depending, maybe diner food.

• 22:46Ramit Sethi?

  You order a diner food to be delivered? I can't think of a worse meal. What do you get?

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Pancakes.

• 22:54Ramit Sethi?

  That does sound pretty good.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Or a burger. If I can't think of my mind, it's pancakes.

• 22:58Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Burger.

• 22:59Ramit Sethi?

  And like, how much does this cost? I do love understanding the total amount. Cause you know, when you order like a Chipotle bowl or something, it's like, I don't know, 13 bucks. And then if you get it delivered, it's like $37. But I'm like, okay, it makes sense. I'm not blaming anybody. Somebody needs to be paid for that. How much does your pancakes cost when you get it delivered?

• 23:20Speaker 01

  About like 20 with delivery and everything, probably 20.

• 23:25Ramit Sethi?

  I don't believe that. 20 bucks?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  24, 24, 25, like with the tip and everything.

• 23:28Ramit Sethi?

  Or like two pancakes?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 23:32Ramit Sethi?

  Does anyone else find this funny?

• 23:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 23:34Ramit Sethi?

  $24 for two pancakes?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  I know.

• 23:37Ramit Sethi?

  All right.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  And it's all because I get home so tired, I don't want to make it for myself.

• 23:41Ramit Sethi?

  We once ran a pilot program on food and fitness. We hired a full-time personal trainer and we helped people lose weight and put on muscle. And some people changed their entire lives using that program. But I have to tell you, the psychology of food and weight that we learned was absolutely shocking. For example, we had a student who would binge late at night and they would describe in vivid detail how they would be eating snacks at the kitchen counter, knowing they shouldn't be and hating themselves for every second of it. That's the word they used, hating themselves. But they just couldn't bring themselves to stop. We asked them why they did it and they said the same thing Michelle said. It's dumb. I know I shouldn't. I guess I just can't get control of myself.

• 24:26Ramit Sethi?

  I'm irresponsible. And we said, no, we don't believe any of that. And we pushed them to go deeper using the five whys technique. It turned out they were hungry because they'd skipped lunch. Why? Because they didn't pack a lunch. Why? Because they were late out the door that morning. Why? Because they had stayed up the night before watching Netflix. They were blaming themselves for this massive moral defect. But what we found was something much simpler and behavioral. You need to set a time to go to sleep and follow it. Now, food, of course, has so many different reasons for why we behave the way we do. It's not often as simple as this.

• 25:09Ramit Sethi?

  There are often much deeper issues. And for those, I would highly recommend speaking to a trained specialist. But today, do you see the connection? And do you see how I'm doing the same thing here with Michelle? She let her insurance lapse. Why? Because she didn't have enough money. Why? Because she orders from DoorDash. Why? And so on. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop assigning moral judgments to yourself and instead treat your behavior like a scientist. What am I doing? Why do I do that? Why, why, why? You can learn more about how to use this approach in my program Success Triggers at iwt.com/products.

• 25:54Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so that's one. You get the $12 each pancakes fine. And what other bills did you have?

• 26:01Speaker 01

  My student loans, that's a huge chunk of it.

• 26:04Ramit Sethi?

  What else?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  And I have my credit card debt.

• 26:06Ramit Sethi?

  Huh?

• 26:07Speaker 01

  My credit card debt.

• 26:07Ramit Sethi?

  What's that for?

• 26:09Speaker 01

  A lot of dumb stuff.

• 26:10Ramit Sethi?

  Like?

• 26:11Speaker 01

  A lot of shopping, a lot of Uber Eats.

• 26:13Ramit Sethi?

  You said shopping, you shop a lot, and you said, "It calms me." What does that mean?

• 26:20Speaker 01

  It just makes me feel like I'm not in the position that I actually am.

• 26:24Ramit Sethi?

  Which is?

• 26:26Speaker 01

  I'm broke.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  It distracts her from her life.

• 26:31Ramit Sethi?

  Have you helped her with her debt?

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did. I co-signed a loan for her.

• 26:36Ramit Sethi?

  What? How much?

• 26:38Speaker 01

  It was...

• 26:39Speaker 02

  It's like fifteen thousand.

• 26:40Ramit Sethi?

  What was the loan for?

• 26:42Speaker 01

  Consolidating.

• 26:43Ramit Sethi?

  Consolidating your debt?

• 26:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not really sure what she did with that.

• 26:46Ramit Sethi?

  What? Hold on. What's happening right now? You co-signed a loan for your girlfriend, right? And did you ask like, hey, maybe I might be open to it, but I need to see your finances and we need to make a plan? Did you say that?

• 27:05Speaker 02

  I didn't see her finances or ask to make a plan. I just trusted her to, I guess, do the right thing. I guess I just thought she would know what she was doing.

• 27:15Ramit Sethi?

  What do you mean? She's had debt for like so long. She tells you about money all the time, right?

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't know what kind of debt she was in. I didn't know the amount.

• 27:23Ramit Sethi?

  Y'all hearing this as you talk about it, what does it sound like to you?

• 27:28Speaker 02

  We just need to talk more?

• 27:30Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, that's for sure. That's the bare minimum. I'm glad you're here. That's why sometimes people need me as an excuse to talk about money for the first time. But like, do you see the alarm on my face?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:42Ramit Sethi?

  What do you think is going through my head right now?

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Why would you trust her with that?

• 27:48Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Why would you trust her? Why would you co-sign a loan? And it's not just about you, Michelle. I'm not saying that you are untrustworthy. I am saying I wouldn't co-sign almost anybody's loan. And if I did, I'll be putting them through the most... I'd be like, read my book and I would quiz them of every freaking sub-chapter. Explain this to me. What about this? What happens if this happens? I would make them work.

• 28:16Ramit Sethi?

  So to me, this speaks to a complete lack of relationship about money between the two of you, a lack of transparency and honesty. The fact that he did not know that you had even twenty K of debt, much less ten times that.

• 28:35Ramit Sethi?

  And Michelle, your inability to handle money. You took a loan to consolidate money

• 28:43Ramit Sethi?

  and ended up in a worse place.

• 28:48Ramit Sethi?

  Have you ever taken money from him?

• 28:51Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:53Ramit Sethi?

  What happened?

• 28:55Speaker 01

  When I wasn't working, he had money saved up in his um, safe. And since I really wasn't working because I was studying, I would like take and then I would say I was gonna replace.

• 29:15Speaker 01

  And like before he noticed, I would replace it and then it just never happened.

• 29:22Speaker 01

  Um, and then one day he went to go grab something from it and I didn't even know how to tell him.

• 29:32Ramit Sethi?

  What happened, man?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  It was just missing and I was just really disappointed.

• 29:39Ramit Sethi?

  Did you say anything?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:41Ramit Sethi?

  What? What was the conversation?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  I mean, honestly, there wasn't conversation. It was actually silence, but um,

• 29:51Speaker 01

  it was

• 29:53Speaker 01

  honestly, like I still live with that guilt so bad because I literally, he's never judged me about it. He's never like made me feel less of a person for even doing that. And I went and I like betrayed him.

• 30:13Ramit Sethi?

  Does this sound like a healthy relationship with money to the two of you?

• 30:17Speaker 02

  They hurt and I just lost trust.

• 30:23Ramit Sethi?

  You tell her that?

• 30:25Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 30:27Ramit Sethi?

  You want to tell her right now?

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Lost, I lost my trust with you and it hurt.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sorry.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  It was, it was gonna be her, her ring.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  That's what it's gonna pay for her ring with. She's always asking, you know, about a ring and that's the reason why she hasn't gotten it yet.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Cause I took the funds that he had for it. I get really scared that um, he's gonna question if he sees a future with me and even my ability to be like a parent.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  Because of that dumb stuff I've done.

• 31:13Ramit Sethi?

  I feel like right now we're opening up, kind of lifting the lid on something. And it feels treacherous. It feels dangerous. Does he want to stay with me? Does he think I'm going to be a bad parent? I'm going to guess that you have lifted the lid up and this is so scary. You've just covered it right back. I'm pushing away in the past. This goes so much deeper than spending money on DoorDash pancakes. Michelle feels guilty about taking money from Matt's safe, as she should. We're talking about $5,000, which is a big deal. And now she's scared that he's not going to stick around to build a future together. But he hasn't expressed wanting to leave.

• 31:55Ramit Sethi?

  If anything, he hasn't reacted angrily enough for what I would have expected. Can you imagine what this conversation would be like if the genders were reversed? And a boyfriend stole from his girlfriend's safe? I see gender dynamics here. I see personal psychology. I see a common dynamic where someone continues to blame themselves. But after a while, you start to say, okay, now what? You can blame yourself, but it's almost starting to seem like a defense mechanism. And the question is, what are you going to do about it? I want to explore Michelle's childhood so I can understand what sorts of money situations were modeled to her when she was growing up. We'll dig into that after this break.

• 32:39Ramit Sethi?

  And real quick, if you enjoy these videos and you want to be the first to know when we drop a new one, make sure you hit that subscribe button. It really helps my team and me grow. What happens if you're away from home and you need to see a doctor? My coworker, for example, needed to see a doctor ASAP while she was in another state and she used our sponsor, Zocdoc. Here's what she said. I searched by condition. I found someone local. It showed me people who had same-day appointments who also took my insurance. I found a great doctor who didn't make me wait and it was a total relief, especially when I was away from home. If you need to find a good doctor fast, use this episode's sponsor, Zocdoc. Zocdoc lets you search. And compare local in-network doctors.

• 33:21Ramit Sethi?

  Whether you're looking for primary care, dentistry, eye care, or anything else, you can easily search by specialty or symptoms. And you can book in-network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. Getting an actual appointment is easy. You just look through the real appointment openings, click what works for your schedule, and book it instantly. And what's great is their appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours. No more waiting months and months to get the care that you need. Your health matters, and taking care of yourself should not be complicated. Find and book the right doctor with Zocdoc. Head to zocdoc.com/ramit to get started and check that appointment off your to-do list.

• 34:04Ramit Sethi?

  That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash ramit.

• 34:12Ramit Sethi?

  This episode of Money for Couples is brought to you by Wild Grain. Now, my wife and I were recently in Paris, and they take their pastries very seriously. I'm back now from Paris, and I can't just walk down the block to visit that bakery. But I can do the next best thing, which is to bake some pastries at home in 25 minutes or less with Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake-from-frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisanal pastries, and fresh pastas. Plus, the Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. They've got a variety box, they have a gluten-free box, vegan box, and a new protein box. One of my coworkers recently got a box delivered from Wild Grain with croissants,

• 34:53Ramit Sethi?

  sourdough bread, gluten-free chocolate chip cookies, butternut squash ravioli, and more. She told me, "Everybody loved them, and the house smelled amazing." Imagine having fresh bakery-quality bread, pastries, and pasta at home without any trips to the store. And don't just take my word for it. They have over 40,000 five-star reviews, and they've been voted the best food subscription box by USA Today three years in a row. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off your first box plus free croissants for life when you go to wildgrain.com/ramit to start your subscription today. That's $30 off your first box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain.com/ramit

• 35:37Ramit Sethi?

  or use promo code RAMIT at checkout.

• 35:41Ramit Sethi?

  Now, back to our conversation. You ever felt good about money?

• 35:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 35:49Ramit Sethi?

  If you didn't feel bad about money, what would you feel?

• 35:54Speaker 01

  I have no idea.

• 35:55Ramit Sethi?

  It's pretty common. People who have felt bad about money for so long, it's like having leg pain times a thousand. You get used to it. You forget what it was like to not have that. And then if I ask you, what would it feel like to not have that? People go.

• 36:14Ramit Sethi?

  I don't know, it's been with me forever.

• 36:16Speaker 01

  I'm definitely irresponsible with it.

• 36:18Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  I definitely, I wasn't taught anything with it. Like, it was a control thing growing up. So I always said, I'm not going to be controlled by money.

• 36:29Ramit Sethi?

  Who controlled it?

• 36:30Speaker 01

  My dad. He was like the sole provider. He worked long hours, maybe like sixteen, seventeen a day, Monday through Friday, barely got to sleep. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom to take care of me and my sister. And he was the one that was like in control of like everything, pretty much.

• 36:49Ramit Sethi?

  When you say control, give me a specific example where he exerted control using money.

• 36:56Speaker 01

  If he would say something mean to us or something, or like get out of line, he would like buy us something or give us money. That's kind of like how it started. Also, with my mom, my mom for a while was in credit card debt. And I know my dad lost his lid when he saw Macy's bill. And then he paid it off for her. But it was kind of like, it's kind of like my mom always had to go to him for money. And I didn't like that because I felt like it took her independence away.

• 37:29Ramit Sethi?

  Because she had to ask for money. She was in a less powerful position or subservient, like, please give me money.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Or even sometimes he would just blatantly be like, oh, well, I'm the one that pays bills. I'm the one that has money. As I got older and I started like, you know, talking back, that's what I remember the conversations would be.

• 37:51Ramit Sethi?

  So he would say, don't talk back to me. I'm the one who provides for this family.

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, or. Don't say that. You're gonna need my money.

• 37:59Ramit Sethi?

  Wow.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Or it's like, oh, it's always my money. Or you're brokey, like you're brokey, like.

• 38:05Ramit Sethi?

  What did you feel when you heard your dad saying these things?

• 38:09Speaker 01

  I felt like it was disgusting. I feel like he just thought that like, because he came from another country. He had to work from such a young age and he had to kind of like, he's done very well for himself. For being born in another country and not really knowing the language and coming up like he's done, you know, his American dream. But then because of that, I feel like we'll never do good enough. He's just like, you guys will never understand. You guys are spoiled.

• 38:35Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. I think it's true. You will never understand. I will never understand what it's like for my parents to have been born in India and come here.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:41Ramit Sethi?

  Right? That doesn't necessarily make me spoiled.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:46Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Um, what did your mom say as these conversations were happening between you and your dad?

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Oh, she'd stay quiet.

• 38:54Ramit Sethi?

  How come?

• 38:56Speaker 01

  I'm assuming she felt maybe that way about herself too. So she just would try to avoid it.

• 39:06Ramit Sethi?

  Did you ever talk to your mom about money as a kid or as a teenager?

• 39:11Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:12Ramit Sethi?

  Never?

• 39:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:13Ramit Sethi?

  How come?

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Because it was my dad more that had it. So I would just go to my dad. Let's say for a field trip and stuff like that, like my mom would just always kind of make us be the one to ask for it. Like she would never ask for us.

• 39:27Ramit Sethi?

  Looking back, do you see that as normal or abnormal?

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Abnormal.

• 39:32Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Completely.

• 39:33Ramit Sethi?

  Me too. What happened as you got older, when you were a teenager?

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Uh, my dad still was the one providing. And then when I was able to get a job at 14, I started working.

• 39:44Ramit Sethi?

  What did it feel like when you started getting a paycheck?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Great. Because I didn't need to ask my dad for anything. In a way, made it seem like I needed him less, even though I didn't, because I was still living in his house and stuff. But in a way, it's like, that's how he kind of, like, he would look for any other excuse in a way to kind of like poke at you. When it started changing the most was when I had to go to college and get student loans. And that's when it all like.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Went bad.

• 40:15Ramit Sethi?

  What happened?

• 40:16Speaker 01

  My dad is my co-signer for my loans. I had to apply to private, like, student loans. Sally Mae. And then, when I was done with school,

• 40:30Speaker 01

  I had to start paying the student loans. And my dad was like, I don't even remember, like, signing these loans. The co-signer ones.

• 40:41Ramit Sethi?

  Whoa.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so then he would go on this tangent, saying, till this day, he still says that, like, we forged his signature. Even though I literally remotely remember the fights we would get into because of it. Because I'd tell him, like, if you don't want to do it, like, I can just work. I'll just delay. He's like, delay another semester? Like, no, do whatever you gotta do. And then I would try to explain to him. He wouldn't want to be involved, to be honest. Um, he would say he was too busy with work and all that. And so then he would just be like, here, do what you gotta do. And, you know, being dumb and young and not really understanding that interest increases and that I'm gonna have to pay everything back.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I pretty much got myself in a huge student loan debt.

• 41:33Ramit Sethi?

  What did you graduate with in debt?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Overall?

• 41:38Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Like, two hundred fifty thousand.

• 41:42Ramit Sethi?

  This is so horrible. I cannot imagine growing up with a dad who talked to me like that, who talked to my mom like that, and then who lied about co-signing a loan. Yes, Michelle has responsibility here. She also signed for that loan. Now, I'm not a therapist, so I don't feel comfortable characterizing how her father spoke to her. But let's just say, my personal view is, I am extremely pissed at him. If you grew up under that kind of household, can you imagine how you would react? I don't think most of us can. So, Michelle graduated with two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in loans. Let's keep going. Looking back on the financial relationship you had with your dad regarding the co-signing of the loans.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:27Ramit Sethi?

  What words come to mind for you? The first words that you feel?

• 42:30Speaker 01

  It's really messed up that, um, he actually, like, feels that I...

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Would have the ability to go or honestly, just like the morals to even go and like forge that, knowing that every time we got into a fight, I would go ask him, what should I do about the semester? I would try to see. He would say, no, it'd be a huge thing. Do whatever you want. Like, I'm gonna need you because my mom doesn't have any credit, so they're not gonna give it to her. And it was just like always a headache.

• 43:01Ramit Sethi?

  Why do you think he said that it was forged? I mean, obviously, that's not true. Why do you think he's saying?

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Because I think he feels stupid that he didn't take the time to be involved. And also, um, his anger and his stress took the best of him. My dad is pretty good financially. Like, he's very like strategic with his money. Takes, you know, he works hard for it. But I think he feels probably dumb that he let kind of me jump into that.

• 43:35Ramit Sethi?

  So he feels dumb, you think? He feels angry, maybe ashamed, maybe overwhelmed that this happened and he didn't realize the implications. And so his conclusion is to do what?

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Blame it on me.

• 43:50Ramit Sethi?

  Blame it on you?

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:51Ramit Sethi?

  In other words, not take responsibility, not create a plan, just, I need this bad feeling to go away.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:59Ramit Sethi?

  Okay. Do you see any links between the way that your dad handles money and the way that you handle money today?

• 44:06Speaker 02

  She avoids her, um, problems with money and he avoids talking about his problems with money.

• 44:15Ramit Sethi?

  What do you say, Michelle?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, he never spoke to us about money, problems with money or anything.

• 44:20Ramit Sethi?

  Do you talk to Matt about money?

• 44:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:22Ramit Sethi?

  Hmm. Okay, that's one. How do you think your dad feels about knowing that he co-signed a loan and now his daughter graduated with quarter million dollars in debt? How does he feel?

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Guilt.

• 44:35Ramit Sethi?

  Guilt. You ever feel guilty about money?

• 44:38Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 44:38Ramit Sethi?

  True. What else?

• 44:42Ramit Sethi?

  Does he make a plan? Is he methodical about what to do? Does he do his research and then come to you and say, I think we should do this. What do you think?

• 44:51Speaker 01

  No, never.

• 44:52Ramit Sethi?

  Never made a plan? Okay.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:54Ramit Sethi?

  You ever make a plan with your finances? I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna pay off debt. I'm gonna know the month and year.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  I do it all the time. I try my best, but I never execute it. Because then it becomes overwhelming when I start seeing the numbers so big, to be honest.

• 45:11Ramit Sethi?

  I'm gonna count that as three. Because writing a plan in a journal or kind of ruminating on it, that can feel like executing a plan, but it gets you 98% of the way there. But that last 2% is fundamentally the only thing that matters.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:34Ramit Sethi?

  So one, two, three links between your dad and you. What do you think about that?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  It sucks. Because that's like what keeps us from having a relationship now. All we do is fight about like, like my student loans.

• 45:52Ramit Sethi?

  Any of this surprise you met?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Um, I've heard stories over these seven years. So, um, not really. Because she always comes to me crying or, um, kind of expressing what happened.

• 46:09Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. It's a tough, it's a really tough situation, you know, with your dad who's supposed to love you in so many ways. And co-signing the check and then turning around and saying, you forged it?

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:24Ramit Sethi?

  I mean, obviously, that's not true. But beyond that, for a dad to say that about his daughter, there's something fundamentally wrong.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:32Ramit Sethi?

  We all agree?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:33Ramit Sethi?

  Okay.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  I feel like overall, I haven't been able to like grow. I haven't been able to do anything.

• 46:41Ramit Sethi?

  With your finances? With your relationship, with your family?

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:47Ramit Sethi?

  With what else?

• 46:50Speaker 01

  My relationship with Matt even.

• 46:54Ramit Sethi?

  Obviously, this goes a lot deeper than I can tackle myself. As a kid, she saw her dad being cruel and controlling with money. She saw her mom secretly racking up debt on her Macy's card. And then, her dad and the student loans, as if taking out a quarter of a million dollar loan was not bad enough, which again, she needs to take some responsibility for, then her dad accuses her of forging his signature on the loans.

• 47:21Ramit Sethi?

  Knowing all this, it's no surprise that Michelle is unable to be open with Matt about her finances. Money to her is inextricably clouded with negativity. And he hasn't been pushing her to have conversations because he knows all about this family history, and he doesn't want to upset her. So he's walking on eggshells. I think it is critical that they put everything on the table and start to actually get real about what their expectations are. We're going to open up their conscious spending plan right after this.

• 47:55Ramit Sethi?

  This episode of Money for Couples is brought to you by Wild Grain. Now, my wife and I were recently in Paris, and they take their pastries very seriously. I'm back now from Paris, and I can't just walk down the block to visit that bakery. But I can do the next best thing, which is to bake some pastries at home in 25 minutes or less with Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake-from-frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisanal pastries, and fresh pastas. Plus, the Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. They've got a variety box, they have a gluten-free box, vegan box, and a new protein box. One of my coworkers recently got a box delivered from Wild Grain with croissants, sourdough bread,

• 48:37Ramit Sethi?

  gluten-free chocolate chip cookies, butternut squash ravioli, and more. She told me, "Everybody loved them, and the house smelled amazing." Imagine having fresh bakery-quality bread, pastries, and pasta at home without any trips to the store. And don't just take my word for it, they have over 40,000 five-star reviews, and they've been voted the best food subscription box by USA Today three years in a row. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off your first box, plus free croissants for life when you go to wildgrain.com/ramit to start your subscription today. That's $30 off your first box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain.com/ramit or use promo code RAMIT at checkout.

• 49:24Ramit Sethi?

  Now, back to the conversation. I think we need to look at the numbers. So the two of you put together a CSP. Did you do it together?

• 49:33Speaker 01

  No, virtually.

• 49:36Ramit Sethi?

  What was that like?

• 49:38Speaker 01

  He didn't really say much about the obvious big debt number.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  I didn't see it before she submitted it. I saw it the day after.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  I didn't finish it until like the night of, and then that's when I told him that I finished it. And if he wanted, if he needed, like, is there anything you want to talk about?

• 50:00Ramit Sethi?

  Interesting question. Is there anything you want to talk about? What do you think you were getting at by asking that?

• 50:08Speaker 01

  Do you want to ask me about like the debt? I just told him about the amount that I spent on Uber Eats, which was disgusting.

• 50:17Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so that was the number you focused on, the Uber Eats number?

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:21Ramit Sethi?

  And then you said, do you want to ask me anything else?

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:24Ramit Sethi?

  And what did he say?

• 50:26Speaker 01

  I think he said, uh, no.

• 50:29Ramit Sethi?

  How did you both view this CSP assignment?

• 50:34Speaker 01

  He said it was easy.

• 50:35Speaker 02

  I thought it was, yeah, pretty simple to fill out.

• 50:38Ramit Sethi?

  Right, so you viewed it as filling out numbers on a spreadsheet?

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:41Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and how did you view it, Michelle?

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Really hard, uh, difficult, embarrassing.

• 50:46Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Overwhelming.

• 50:50Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm. Quite typical of the way both of you treat money, right?

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:55Ramit Sethi?

  For you, it's easy, it's a system, it's numbers, I have them ready to go, black and white, done. For you, full of shame.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:01Ramit Sethi?

  Guilt.

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Especially when I saw that like the debt was both of ours and then I felt guilt that I was like, here I am putting all this debt on you.

• 51:11Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. But neither of you really talked about it. The point of the CSP is not to get your numbers precise down to the third decimal place, that's irrelevant. What is it designed to do? Get you to talk about it. And in fact, notice some of the machinations behind the scenes, waiting until the last second to finish it, then saying, is there anything you want to ask me? It's not really how you start a substantive conversation, right? It's almost like, I'm gonna try to skirt past this as quickly and quietly as possible. Is there anything you want to ask me? No, okay, good. Submit.

• 51:54Ramit Sethi?

  So here we are.

• 51:57Ramit Sethi?

  And the two of you haven't talked about money even still.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:00Ramit Sethi?

  Should we talk about it now?

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:02Ramit Sethi?

  All right, let's look.

• 52:05Ramit Sethi?

  So assets are zero. Investments, $47,000. Whose investments?

• 52:13Speaker 02

  I put my 401k there and then I think I may have also put what I have in a trading account.

• 52:22Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Savings, zero. And debt, $263,000. For a total net worth of negative $215,000. All right, what do y'all think about that?

• 52:34Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 52:36Ramit Sethi?

  Did you know that, Matt?

• 52:38Speaker 02

  No.

• 52:38Ramit Sethi?

  What did you think it was?

• 52:42Speaker 02

  20,000 credit card debt and maybe like 100,000 student loans were.

• 52:46Ramit Sethi?

  So almost double what you thought.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:51Ramit Sethi?

  And seeing it, what do you feel?

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Just really confused on how we're gonna get out of this. Because I mean, I don't have debt like that. So I never had a plan for myself to get out of it. If I was to get into debt like that. So seeing that now, it's just like, what do I do here? Kind of thing.

• 53:13Ramit Sethi?

  What do you do here?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:15Ramit Sethi?

  Is it you?

• 53:15Speaker 02

  It should be us, but what do we do here?

• 53:18Ramit Sethi?

  What if it's her? Any of this debt yours?

• 53:21Speaker 02

  A little bit. I mean, I have like maybe 20,000 student loans and then 16,000 in a car debt.

• 53:30Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, okay. All right. So like 230 of it is yours. Ballpark.

• 53:37Ramit Sethi?

  So what, the way I would look at it, even if I'm in a relationship where we are not married, I would say, how is she going to handle this debt?

• 53:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:48Ramit Sethi?

  It's a different philosophy, right?

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:50Ramit Sethi?

  Have you ever said that to her?

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't know. And because we were not married, I never pictured our finances together like that yet.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  But since we had to do the CSP, now it's together and just kind of changes the way I'm seeing it and thinking about it. If we get married, do I inherit this also?

• 54:11Speaker 02

  If something were to happen to her, how will this get paid off?

• 54:17Speaker 02

  God forbid. Just basically like, how can we afford anything with with that number?

• 54:24Ramit Sethi?

  Michelle? What do you think hearing that?

• 54:28Speaker 01

  I never felt like it would be our debt to take care of. I always felt like it would be mine, regardless of like getting married and stuff like it's still my debt. So I never thought I would expect him to be taking care of any of it.

• 54:46Ramit Sethi?

  So, okay. But what about the substance of this comment, which is, how are we going to get married if she has that much debt?

• 54:56Speaker 01

  That's what I've felt that he's thought this whole time.

• 55:00Ramit Sethi?

  Instead of fearing what he might think, he thinks it. He just said it. So let's take that fear away. Now let's go into the substance of his question, which is a super valid question. How are we going to get married and be in a relationship if she's bringing $230,000 of debt? What's your take?

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Um.

• 55:21Ramit Sethi?

  There's nobody else coming to save you here.

• 55:25Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's part of my goal with our conversation is for you to recognize the reality of the situation here.

• 55:33Ramit Sethi?

  Let's continue on.

• 55:36Ramit Sethi?

  Income? 15,825 a month. Now, this is interesting. $9,300 is partner one. Is that you, Michelle? Okay, great. And partner two is 6,400 a month. That's you, Matt. Okay, so quite interesting, right? Michelle's making more by roughly 50% or so than Matt. And yet the numbers are profoundly different. When we look at fixed costs, Michelle, you're paying 99% of fixed costs from your salary. I mean, right there, that's unsustainable, right? You are broke. You're losing money every single month.

• 56:20Ramit Sethi?

  Meanwhile, Matt, you're at 53%, which is a very healthy number. I assume part of this is because you're not paying rent.

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Not paying rent, yeah.

• 56:28Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Interestingly, by the way, Matt's not paying rent. Michelle's paying $360 in rent. 360 is also a great deal. Don't get me wrong. But at 99%, it's difficult to live. And if we look at why, we see a few things here. What do you notice about your numbers in the fixed costs? What stands out to you immediately?

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Uh, my debt payment.

• 56:52Ramit Sethi?

  Your debt payment is $2,542 a month.

• 56:56Speaker 02

  That was the most shocking part. That was, that was the number that was left off when I was doing the CSP. When I said I was done, um, you know, I logged off and let her submit it. And then that's, I guess, the final. Number she has to input and then she sorted it.

• 57:13Ramit Sethi?

  So when you looked at it, you were like, oh, this looks fine. Like it's fine. Like, look at this. If I zero out all the debt, oh, 58%, you were like, solid. We're good to go.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Easy.

• 57:23Ramit Sethi?

  Right. But it's not. It's 99%.

• 57:27Ramit Sethi?

  What else do you notice, Michelle, about your fixed costs?

• 57:30Speaker 01

  That I shop a lot.

• 57:32Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Why? We determined it already, right? What is it?

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Because I, like, it's soothing.

• 57:38Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Like, filling, avoiding.

• 57:42Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, exactly. Gives you a sense of control, a temporary sense of control. But now let's look at the effects of that. So the effects are that this number here, clothes, Target, Amazon, miscellaneous, is $748 a month.

• 58:00Ramit Sethi?

  Your debt goes up and up and up.

• 58:05Ramit Sethi?

  Right? And your debt is at like $230,000. And then how does that affect your relationship now that the two of you know about these numbers?

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Just, um, pretty confused. I just don't know how all that adds up.

• 58:20Ramit Sethi?

  Are you confused or are you angry?

• 58:22Speaker 02

  No, I'm not angry.

• 58:23Ramit Sethi?

  Oh, can I tell you my reaction? I would be angry at my partner, who we live together, who I asked repeatedly, let me look at what you're writing and you said no. And now we have, you have this much in debt and how are we ever going to come together and get married? And what's worse isn't even the number. What's worse is that I don't have a plan. I would be angry because this is not just her debt, it's the future for the two of you. I'd love to hear you talk about money now that you have seen these numbers.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  I don't even know how to start. Like, what would you even do? How would you get out of it?

• 59:08Speaker 02

  What's the plan?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Get another job?

• 59:13Ramit Sethi?

  How does this conversation feel already?

• 59:16Speaker 01

  I'm comfortable.

• 59:17Ramit Sethi?

  It feels horrible to me. I'm not even in it. You've never really talked about money. I hear that. But the first conversation that you're having is getting really negative, really fast. Can we change the dynamic of that?

• 59:33Ramit Sethi?

  I'm about to walk them through the steps of your first positive money conversation, which is an exercise that I outlined early in my new book, Money for Couples. You can preorder Money for Couples at IWT.com/moneyforcouples and you can get the exact words to use to have better conversations about money in your relationship. IWT.com/moneyforcouples. What would you want to feel in your first money conversation?

• 1:00:04Speaker 01

  I'd want to feel like there's hope, like there's a chance that there is a way out of it.

• 1:00:10Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, let's start

• 1:00:13Ramit Sethi?

  by each of you sharing one way that this conversation about money is going to be positive.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  I would start it by saying that I'm sorry for the past and that I want to maybe set out like a payment plan or for the money I owe him for stuff. Because I feel like that one is like a huge factor on me, too.

• 1:00:41Ramit Sethi?

  Why is this conversation going to be good?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Because I'm being honest

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  about my numbers.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  This conversation's gonna be good because we're finally communicating about our debt.

• 1:01:00Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, next, how do you each feel about money today?

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  I feel really bad about money today.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  I feel pretty confident about money, just in a sense of how to manage it and, you know,

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  make sure you pay your bills first and then whatever's left over.

• 1:01:22Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh.

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  Be safe.

• 1:01:25Ramit Sethi?

  How about the two of you? You feel, you feel bad, you feel good? Any connection about how you feel about potentially your money together?

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  We can come up with a plan for me to be able to

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  get out of this so you're more comfortable and I'm more comfortable and we can save for our future.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  I feel that it's definitely scary to see that number.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  But like you said, we can create a plan and, you know, just be really disciplined with what we're spending on. I'm not saying we can't have fun.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  But really just be mindful of going to Target or needing something from Amazon. Things like that.

• 1:02:18Ramit Sethi?

  How do you want to feel about money?

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  I want to feel confident.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  Not like I'm in jail all the time. Like I want to feel free.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  I would agree with that. I'd want to feel like it's not holding us back from anything.

• 1:02:38Ramit Sethi?

  I have to admit, I'm surprised by that last one because right now, Michelle, you seem pretty free to me.

• 1:02:48Ramit Sethi?

  Spend on the things you want. Where's the jail?

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  The one I guess I put myself in.

• 1:02:54Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. So isn't that the worst of all worlds? You feel constrained. You're actually just spending more than you make.

• 1:03:01Ramit Sethi?

  You just feel bad. In a way, it seems like you almost thrive on feeling bad. You used the word dwell earlier. You know, it's caused me to dwell.

• 1:03:12Ramit Sethi?

  But I think with your money, you dwell on it so much. It is not healthy to ruminate obsessively and to dwell on it for years. So when I hear, you know, you've made mistakes in your past. Okay, fine. Everybody's made a mistake. I've made mistakes. Fine.

• 1:03:33Ramit Sethi?

  Matt says, like, just make a plan, pay off your debt. She just needs to get better with money. But it's not just that simple, right? I think step one is not dwelling on what's happened in the past, but rather looking to the future. And what about the consequences, Matt? Have you ever asked her directly and said, we need to have a candid conversation about money?

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I just, you know, like I said, I'll go over, take a look at the planner. She'll tell me, don't look, stop. And I just back off.

• 1:04:09Ramit Sethi?

  It feels very childlike. The whole dynamic of like, let me peek. It's like two kids in junior high looking at each other and like, don't, don't look. You're in your 30s. You're talking about potentially marriage and kids. That just doesn't make sense to me as an adult. What do you think, Matt?

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  She just didn't want to tell me. And I never went through with asking more questions to avoid arguments.

• 1:04:41Ramit Sethi?

  Because if you argue, it means what?

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  Just more fighting.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  But we could like be done.

• 1:04:49Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, maybe. It means you're a mean person. And you, you get enough fights from your family. So when you come to Matt's, you're in a safe space. But your identity is now, I'm the one who doesn't fight with her. What else is Matt's identity as it relates to you and money?

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  The one that helps me.

• 1:05:12Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. He gives you money. He excuses when you make a bad mistake. He enables you. Based on what we heard today, you'll notice a lot of similarities in the way that Michelle behaves with money and the way her parents behaved with money. And as I try to help her make that connection. Can you think of anyone else in your life who shopped? And ran up credit card debt?

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  My mom.

• 1:05:43Ramit Sethi?

  Any connection there?

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Thought of it for a little bit because I was like, why did I continue it? Because she stopped it right away.

• 1:05:49Ramit Sethi?

  Why did she stop it?

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  She didn't have any more funds.

• 1:05:52Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, and? Who found out about it?

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  My dad.

• 1:05:56Ramit Sethi?

  And what did he do?

• 1:05:58Speaker 01

  He paid it off and told her to cut it up.

• 1:06:02Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, so you don't have that happening in your life, in part because you earn your own income, right?

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Ramit Sethi?

  So. Your mom stopped.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  Because of the consequences.

• 1:06:13Ramit Sethi?

  What are you realizing?

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  I don't have consequences because it's. Like my income.

• 1:06:21Ramit Sethi?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  So I'm not feeling like I owe anyone anything, but I do owe.

• 1:06:26Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Ramit Sethi?

  I don't, I'm not advocating for you to give up your income and then for you, Matt, to come in and say like, stop shopping at Macy's. That's not what I'm saying at all. I do think you're on to something by realizing you don't have any consequences. Have you ever realized that before?

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  And for a second I like touched that and I was like, ooh, maybe that's me. And then that was, I think I ignored it.

• 1:06:50Ramit Sethi?

  Kind of happens a lot, don't you think?

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I avoid.

• 1:06:53Ramit Sethi?

  You uncover something, it's like you lift it up.

• 1:06:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:56Ramit Sethi?

  And you go, oh.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Ramit Sethi?

  I don't like what's under there. Ah, I'm out of here.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:02Ramit Sethi?

  It's pretty interesting, right?

• 1:07:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:04Ramit Sethi?

  Any reminders from the way you grew up? Somebody who uncovers something they don't like and then.

• 1:07:10Speaker 01

  My dad.

• 1:07:11Ramit Sethi?

  Your dad does it. Does it a lot, right?

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Ramit Sethi?

  Watching you see these connections between you and your dad and your mom. I think people can internalize this in one of two ways. One, they can become overwhelmed and feel. Broken. And feel. My future has already been written for me in my past. So what's the point?

• 1:07:37Ramit Sethi?

  Everything I do is just because my dad said something in nineteen eighty eight. And now like I have no agency, I have no control. That's one. Or two, people can say.

• 1:07:51Ramit Sethi?

  I never made the connection between why I behave this way and what my parents modeled. Now that I know that, what do I want to do about it? What do I want my future to be? Which one would you say that you are right now?

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  I feel like because of all the

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  the names that my parents have called me, I let them take over like who I am. So it's like in a way I'm like living up to their

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  names.

• 1:08:30Ramit Sethi?

  You're never gonna be good with money.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:32Ramit Sethi?

  Right now, you're not good with money. Oh, he called you a brokey. I can't believe that. I cannot, like you said, I cannot believe any parent ever calling their child that. And you are broke.

• 1:08:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Ramit Sethi?

  So in a way.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  It like manifested.

• 1:08:46Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:48Ramit Sethi?

  And just out of curiosity, if you weren't broke, if you were good with money, if you were paying your debt off steadily, do you think they would love you more or less?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  I don't know if they would love me more or less, but they would feel less useful because I wouldn't need to like depend on them.

• 1:09:07Ramit Sethi?

  Right, right now you do, right? You live in their house. You have to ask for a ride to work. You're totally dependent.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:15Ramit Sethi?

  So in a way,

• 1:09:18Ramit Sethi?

  you have taken the ball that they tossed you and said, great, I'm gonna run with this. What do you think about this, Matt? It's gotta be frustrating for you. Somebody who says, I have a system. My stuff runs. What's the problem? Let's just knock it out.

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just a little sad, I think.

• 1:09:35Speaker 02

  She's just kind of not focusing on herself and I don't know. She makes a lot more money than me, so I don't understand how you make all this money and it all goes to your bills.

• 1:09:48Ramit Sethi?

  So you say that to her?

• 1:09:49Speaker 02

  No, I didn't say that to her, but I don't want to upset her. I just try to avoid an argument. So I'm also an avoider, but in other ways.

• 1:09:58Ramit Sethi?

  Finally, we are getting somewhere. They're finally talking about money. Matt is expressing his concerns and he's also admitting that he doesn't talk about money because he's also an avoider. They both are, although Michelle is also a worrier. Challenge now will be for Michelle and Matt to adopt new money behaviors. Step one is for both of them to have a series of real conversations about money. Do they have a future together? What are their expectations? What would success look like? And this is gonna be uncomfortable, but it has to be. Sometimes the only way to build a rich life is to walk straight through the fire. But only Michelle can get this under control. Matt can't do it.

• 1:10:43Ramit Sethi?

  I can't do it. She has to do it by herself, for herself. Do you trust her?

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  If like I had a safe? No, but yes, I trust her.

• 1:10:56Ramit Sethi?

  Trust her with money?

• 1:10:57Speaker 02

  No, not yet.

• 1:11:00Ramit Sethi?

  Could you get married if you didn't trust her with money?

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  I think I just need to have control of what she's doing, kind of. And I don't want that. I don't want to be kind of like micro-managing what she does because she's an adult. She should know.

• 1:11:17Ramit Sethi?

  So could you get married if you didn't trust her with money?

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  It'd be hard, but I think I could.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  I kind of see it like, like, no, you shouldn't trust me with money. And no, you shouldn't want to get married to someone like that.

• 1:11:35Ramit Sethi?

  And when you say that to him, what's the intent there? Because I don't think it's for him to break up with you.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 1:11:41Ramit Sethi?

  I think it's so that he reassures you. You feel scared. You articulate those fears to him. He goes, no, it's okay. I love you. I'm not leaving. And you feel reassured for the moment. And so what happens is the two of you enter into this dynamic where you're constantly worried and ruminating over your fears and you're reassuring. But what I haven't heard, Matt, is you saying, hey, I'm actually not okay getting married to someone who's in $230,000 of debt and worse, not actually making a Plan to pay it off. I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay with building a family when we have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. That's only the minimum being paid. You work in finance. You know this. I'm not okay with that.

• 1:12:22Ramit Sethi?

  And so because you're walking on eggshells afraid to upset Michelle, what happens? You end up stagnant. Nobody has any consequences. Michelle, have you had any consequences for Matt about finances? No, he didn't even know the numbers until today and you didn't share them with him.

• 1:12:40Ramit Sethi?

  So the reason I'm getting a little upset here is that I see your future that you're sleepwalking into. If both of you go, hey, fine, I'm okay with $230,000 of debt. I don't mind taking it on. I wouldn't personally be comfortable with that, but at least you two would affirmatively discuss it and say, this is our family approach. Right now, it's just like each of you living independent lives, hoping that nothing bad happens and you can slip by the CSP and you can slip by getting married.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:11Ramit Sethi?

  What kind of life is that?

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  A lie.

• 1:13:13Ramit Sethi?

  Michelle, you went to nursing school, grades made you drop out. And then you fought back, went back into an accelerated program, graduated, and now you're a nurse making 120K, right? How come you got so aggressive with that?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  I think I just pretty much was tired of living like a comfortable life.

• 1:13:40Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:41Speaker 01

  Trying to act like I was okay with everything, even though I wasn't.

• 1:13:44Ramit Sethi?

  Are you okay with that right now?

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:13:47Ramit Sethi?

  All right. Well, then tell me what you want to do.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  I want to get ahead of debt.

• 1:13:52Ramit Sethi?

  What would it mean to you if you could pay that off?

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  I would feel confident in myself and value myself a lot more.

• 1:14:01Ramit Sethi?

  Kind of like the way you got your nursing degree.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:04Ramit Sethi?

  You did that. Nobody else did that. You.

• 1:14:08Ramit Sethi?

  One of the things I love is when I meet somebody who's really accomplished in one part of life and then their finances are a little sloppy. And they never make the connection. Oh yeah, I go to the gym all the time. I do this, I do that, but my finances are a mess. And I, I help them make that connection between the two of them. And you can see him kind of sit up a little straighter. They realize the way that I do this is the same way I can do that. So you would feel confident, you'd value yourself more. What would you do with your first rich life goal after you paid off your debt?

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Probably get a dog.

• 1:14:48Ramit Sethi?

  What kind of dog?

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  German Shepherd.

• 1:14:51Ramit Sethi?

  It's kind of a beautiful thing to have a dog who you would love and take care of that would constantly remind you of what you accomplished. Hard work. It wasn't easy. You did it. And you get to love this dog.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  I feel proud of myself.

• 1:15:12Ramit Sethi?

  So looking at your fixed costs here, and then if we just work our way down, you know, you're investing a lot. And of course you're spending more than you make. So let's just focus on the area that you can control. When you just painted the picture for me of feeling pride of paying off your debt, of potentially getting a dog. Tell me what you could do right here in these numbers.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  I could cut dining out, Uber Eats.

• 1:15:43Ramit Sethi?

  How?

• 1:15:44Speaker 01

  I could give myself a hundred dollar to be realistic.

• 1:15:50Ramit Sethi?

  Fine, a hundred dollars per?

• 1:15:52Speaker 01

  Month.

• 1:15:53Ramit Sethi?

  Uh huh. And what about the other times you come home from late from work and you're tired?

• 1:15:56Speaker 01

  Just come home and make something or have it pre-cooked.

• 1:15:59Ramit Sethi?

  Right there, that would save you hundreds. Okay, what about the Target stuff?

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  I would also slash that to like a hundred dollars too, by just buying the necessities that I need.

• 1:16:14Ramit Sethi?

  And then what else in your environment helps or hurts your chances of achieving your rich life goals?

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  Living in my house.

• 1:16:22Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. Probably can't move out tomorrow.

• 1:16:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:26Ramit Sethi?

  So what could you do to make it a better environment?

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  I could well set a goal of hopefully when to be able to move out.

• 1:16:36Ramit Sethi?

  Love that.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  That's something to look forward to.

• 1:16:38Ramit Sethi?

  Great. What else?

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Stay at Mets some days.

• 1:16:43Ramit Sethi?

  I think all those things are good. I think those are all very logistical things. I am willing to bet you have never said no to your family. How could you build those skills so that you could have a better relationship with your family?

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Setting boundaries?

• 1:17:02Ramit Sethi?

  I think that's a really good place to spend some money. Get a therapist to guide you through those difficult conversations.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Ramit Sethi?

  Right?

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:11Ramit Sethi?

  To me, when I look at the dynamic and the thing that you've you've both wanted to get married, but you haven't and the safe and all this stuff. To me, your priorities are very clear. I see you spending a ton on eating out. I see you spending a ton on this mindless stuff at Target. I don't see you putting money to spend on yourself. I'm talking about mental health.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:36Ramit Sethi?

  Because to me, that's everything. If you right now, the way you talk about money is shame filled. It's guilt ridden. It would not change until you learn how to say no, how to set boundaries and how to get aggressive with this.

• 1:17:54Ramit Sethi?

  I think a lot of our conversation has been you metaphorically leaning back, saying like, I feel bad. I hate this. I made a lot of poor decisions. I just don't know what to do. But in order to be proud of yourself, what do you have to do? You have to go from here to here. You have to say, I'm sick of this. I'm making a plan. It might make a couple of people around me uncomfortable and I'm still gonna do it.

• 1:18:22Ramit Sethi?

  And Matt, what about you? What role would you say you've been playing in this relationship as it relates to money?

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Not like getting angry with her and, you know, enabling her with the spending.

• 1:18:37Ramit Sethi?

  I don't think you have to get angry, not with her, but I do agree you've been enabling. What else?

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  Way better communication.

• 1:18:46Ramit Sethi?

  I mean, yeah. Would you be willing to marry somebody who was in this much debt and had no plan for getting out of it?

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  I said it would be hard. So I guess helping her stay on track with the plan?

• 1:18:59Ramit Sethi?

  Part of the problem is that by you being the safety net for her, financially and otherwise, Michelle knows she has faced no consequences.

• 1:19:10Ramit Sethi?

  The hardest part of this is both of you actually setting standards for yourself. And I don't know about you guys, but if I'm thinking about a marriage, which is the most serious bond of all, I'm setting high standards.

• 1:19:25Ramit Sethi?

  This is what I need in a partner. This is what I expect.

• 1:19:31Ramit Sethi?

  I'm not going to pick some esoteric thing like, I need you to do your hair this color. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about values. I expect us to have a healthy financial relationship. I expect us to be nice to each other, not to scream at each other. This is a type of love, right? It's loving yourself and raising the expectations for your partner, and then they meet it or they don't.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  I don't doubt my love for Matt, but I doubt my love for myself.

• 1:19:58Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  He won't even say like, I don't see myself marrying her.

• 1:20:01Ramit Sethi?

  I know. He won't say it right now. And I'm not trying to get you to say that.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm like answering that for him. So it's like, in a way, like, it's like self sabotaging.

• 1:20:10Ramit Sethi?

  Yes, it is. Yes, for me.

• 1:20:14Ramit Sethi?

  Relationship, if I were there with somebody who had a bunch of debt, we would be talking about it. They would be bringing it up to me. I would not be chasing them, even though a person in debt tends to avoid it. There's a lot of shame. I get that. I would have created a culture where they felt safe enough to talk about it. And it was expected. Like if you have some major health issue, it's expected you talk about it in this relationship. We're in intimate relationship. I need to know. If you have a financial problem, a family problem, I expect you to talk about it, just as you could expect that for me. Okay, then it would be, tell me about your plan. How are you going to deal with this? If there's something that is, you don't understand, let's talk about it. But you're an adult.

• 1:20:59Ramit Sethi?

  I trust you to handle this. Because this is just one of a million things that a married couple would encounter. Right now, you can't retire. You can't buy a house. You can't do any of that. What about your kids?

• 1:21:13Ramit Sethi?

  Matt, you want to have kids who are going to learn that dad is giving money to mom, mom is hiding it and shopping? Does that sound like?

• 1:21:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:21:21Ramit Sethi?

  Any couple you know?

• 1:21:22Speaker 01

  Well, my parents.

• 1:21:23Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, it's just passed down.

• 1:21:27Ramit Sethi?

  No, you elevate the conversation to a plan, because this plan is the foundation for your relationship. Without it, you'll be in half a million dollars of debt in a few years. And there's no escaping that.

• 1:21:41Ramit Sethi?

  What do you guys hear as I say that?

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  He needs to implement consequences.

• 1:21:49Ramit Sethi?

  What are those consequences?

• 1:21:51Speaker 02

  That I won't marry her.

• 1:21:53Ramit Sethi?

  I would not break off a relationship with someone just because they had debt.

• 1:21:59Ramit Sethi?

  But if they did not show that they took it seriously, I would tell them point blank, this is what I expect in a partner. This is the easiest thing we're going to do together when we're married. We're going to have a lot more challenges. So I need to know that I can trust you as a partner.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  That's my fault. I never expressed that I wouldn't marry her. So I never kind of.

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  Lay down the law.

• 1:22:24Ramit Sethi?

  It's not laying down the law. It's you respecting yourself enough to know this is what you need in your life. You're an accomplished guy. You talked about the gym. Your numbers look solid. Everything's within the parameters. Like it's, it's very, it's like a machine. Right? You ever describe yourself as a machine before?

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  We went up working.

• 1:22:44Ramit Sethi?

  Okay, that's a yes.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  He is though.

• 1:22:47Ramit Sethi?

  But that's one of the reasons that the two of you haven't actually been communicating is, Michelle, you're operating on feelings about the past. Feelings may feel real to you and sometimes they are valid in with reality, sometimes not. Meanwhile, Matt lives in the plan. He has his CSP, he has his numbers. It's so easy for him. But what the thing you both have in common is you have a relationship you both want.

• 1:23:17Ramit Sethi?

  It's just that no one's actually taking the first step to say, here's what I need in a relationship.

• 1:23:24Ramit Sethi?

  So what do you guys want to do from here?

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  I need to have my goals.

• 1:23:29Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah. You know what they are?

• 1:23:33Speaker 01

  To have a dog with Matt, to get married, to have a family and to just like be happy and debt free.

• 1:23:44Ramit Sethi?

  Great, those are big goals. How do you get there?

• 1:23:47Speaker 01

  By paying off my debt.

• 1:23:49Ramit Sethi?

  Make a plan to pay off your debt. You can't pay off your debt tomorrow. It's going to take years, you know that.

• 1:23:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:53Ramit Sethi?

  It's fine. You have to make a plan. So you're going to make that plan? Or you're going to wait for Matt to make it?

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  No, I'm going to make the plan.

• 1:24:01Ramit Sethi?

  Yeah, it's your plan. It's her money. She owns it. You can collaborate, you can answer questions if she hasn't, but you can't take the lead. That means this whole dynamic of hiding what you're writing in the journal, it's got to change. So you make a plan.

• 1:24:18Ramit Sethi?

  And I would go to my partner and I would say, look, this is the plan I've come up with. This is how long it's going to take me. Here's what I'm going to do in order to make it happen. What do you think? Because while it is not his money, you two are in a relationship together. And then Matt, you've got to be honest. If it says it's going to take 17 years to pay off, you might say, look, that's too long. Can you find a way to pay it off faster than that? It's going to be hard for you because you want to solve problems for her. It's not your job. So then you're going to start with the plan, cutting back on this, et cetera. And what's Matt going to see from that?

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  Results by not needing to ask him for money and also by paying him back.

• 1:25:04Ramit Sethi?

  Amazing. I actually find that very inspirational. I've known a lot of people who were in relationships where one person had debt, felt very ashamed. But what an attractive moment if that person takes responsibility and says, you know what? I made some mistakes, but I'm not going to dwell on that. Here's my plan. Watch me. Every month, boom, paid off 1%. Boom, increased that number. Boom, got a raise. Look at that smile on Matt's face. He's like, that compounding? What are you talking about? It's really impressive. This number is big and it's only getting bigger. Part of what change looks like is making rapid changes, going from leaning back to leaning way forward and getting aggressive.

• 1:25:49Ramit Sethi?

  Trust me, you feel so good when you start getting that momentum. And then a month from now, you should see some big changes. You'll be amazed how fast this can change. But remember, this comes from both of you, not one, both.

• 1:26:05Speaker 02

  I think I may take her to a jewelry store so she can get motivated.

• 1:26:11Ramit Sethi?

  A big thank you to Michelle. Michelle and Matt for sharing their story with us. I am rooting for Michelle to get aggressive with her plan. So she and Matt can start to build their rich life together. And now let's listen to their follow up videos. Up first, Michelle.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  My biggest takeaway was that I realized how many financial decisions and choices I have to make. I have to really just buckle down and get started on a plan. And just how much it's actually hurting my future with Matt. Changes I've started are I deleted all the Uber Eats apps. So it's been a couple of days. I have not ordered any food or anything. Called my loan with Matt and all those companies. And I put them on an auto pay to make sure that they're always paid. I also decided to

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  give 5% of my paycheck to a fund for me and Matt that he is in charge of for now.

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  For our future, I hope it helps him see too, that it's because I'm planning a future with for us. And also it helps me see that at least I have something to look forward to. I never really thought of like what my long term priorities were because of how much I felt that I was like

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  drowning in all of that. And I really thank you for kind of opening my eyes to it. Once you see it's so hard, you can't even not look at it and have to tackle it and do something about it.

• 1:27:51Ramit Sethi?

  And now let's hear from Matt.

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  One of my biggest takeaways from the meeting was worrying about how her relationship with money has a lot of commonalities with her parents' relationship with money. Something that I'm trying to change and is definitely be more communicative about our finances together. And then also, something we haven't done is gone to a therapist together. She goes to therapy, but I don't. And so that's something I'd like to start, and I think it would really help us.