#2385 - Rick Strassman

Rick Strassman, MD, is a Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico School of Medicine. He is the author of several books, the most recent of which is 2024's "My Altered States: A Doctor's Extraordinary Account of Trauma, Psychedelics, and Spiritual Growth."www.rickstrassman.com Buy 1 Get 1 Free Trucker Hat with code ROGAN at https://happydad.com Visit https://WildPastures.com/rogan today to get 20% off for life, plus $15 off your first box. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Speaker 02

  This is a book I read 11 years ago.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  The Missile of Prophecy.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  I haven't gotten that one before.

• 0:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. It compares, well, let's see, are we gonna?

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  We're up.

• 0:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it compares the DMT state to the state of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible.

• 0:28Joe Rogan?

  Do you think they're the same thing?

• 0:32Speaker 02

  Well, the phenomenology is pretty similar. Like, if you read chapter one of Ezekiel, there's flames, and there's angels, and there's wings, and there's eyes on the back of wings, and there's roaring sound, and blue ice above the person, he flies through space. Yeah. Quite psychedelic.

• 0:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, wheel within a wheel. The description of the things that people, usually, they try to say that it's some sort of a UAP. That's the common thing that people like to say, right?

• 1:05Speaker 02

  Well, it could be.

• 1:07Joe Rogan?

  Which also might be connected.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Could be a DMT vision, though.

• 1:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, easily.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know the guys out of Jerusalem that think that the whole burning bush thing was DMT?

• 1:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that was the first theophany of Moses.

• 1:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23Speaker 02

  First time he had a prophetic experience. Yeah, and...

• 1:27Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it's like, that's what it is. It's literally a plant that has high levels of DMT, and if you burned it and smoked it, it's kind of crazy that that's the way it comes. That it, I mean, this is, it's, I just, and I really applaud you for learning ancient Hebrew, so you could go back and read it in the original tongue, which is really fascinating. Didn't you say it took like 16 years to learn it?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  That prophecy book took 16 years to write, and I had to learn Hebrew while I was reading and, you know, doing the writing. Well, what's

• 2:04Joe Rogan?

  It's amazing.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  What's cool is the Hebrew word for bush, burning bush, is the same as Sinai, Mount Sinai.

• 2:14Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:15Joe Rogan?

  The word's the same?

• 2:17Speaker 02

  The same root. The thing about the Hebrew language, at least for biblical Hebrew, is every word is based on a three-letter root. So the word for bush contains those three letters, and the word for Sinai contains those same three letters.

• 2:36Joe Rogan?

  And how is that significant? Like, you could have that, I'm sure there's English examples of three letters that are similar but completely different meaning. Like, why are those three letters as a root connect these words uniquely?

• 2:51Speaker 02

  Well, it could be that bush grew on Mount Sinai. And, you know, that was the significance of the location of the burning bush.

• 2:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I see. So it was literally named after that experience?

• 3:03Speaker 02

  Could be, could be, yeah. Well, you're talking about the acacia bush, which releases DMT

• 3:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  when it's burnt.

• 3:10Joe Rogan?

  And it's very common in that area, right?

• 3:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. In fact, there's, a plant is a weed called Paganum harmala, which also grows in that part of the world, and it contains beta-carbolines, which are the compounds responsible for making ayahuasca orally active. So they have their own ayahuasca plants available in tandem there.

• 3:39Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it bizarre that you saying that to many people listening sounds utterly crazy? Like, the proposition, just proposing that these people that were writing these things down a long time ago, these experiences, they were probably experiencing some sort of a psychedelic state, and they were trying to describe it.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  Well, in thinking about psychedelic states back then and in the prophetic literature, you can think of the visions as being generated from the bottom up when you take something. In the model of the Hebrew Bible, anyway, it all comes down from God. So it's a top-down causal relationship between the source of the visions and the visions, as opposed to them being generated by taking something. It's exogenous DMT versus endogenous DMT.

• 4:44Joe Rogan?

  And if we tried to... What is the difference, for your interpretation? I know you had read the English version of the Bible. But what is the difference between learning ancient Hebrew and reading it in the source language? What was it like for you? What made it different?

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Well, it might be helpful to even go back to why I started reading the Hebrew Bible, of all things. Yeah. Well, when I was doing my DMT work, I was really involved with the Zen Buddhist community that I started affiliating myself with, learning from, when I was 22. And that was the spiritual approach I took to the DMT work. I was expecting it to be consistent with a Buddhist enlightenment goal, with no form, no thoughts, no sense of self, anything like that.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  So that was the expectation that I took in with me when I was doing those studies. Would people have those kinds of experiences, just being given DMT without any other trappings? No expectation, just go in there, tell us what it's like. So instead of that, it was DMT, it was full of content, people were interacting with it, their sense of self was maintained, which was not at all consistent with the Buddhist model that I brought to bear. So that was going on, like, okay, Buddhism's not quite holding up to the data. And then my Buddhist community and I parted ways over the psychedelic work.

• 6:26Speaker 02

  They thought I was promoting a diluted idea that psychedelics can be spiritual. So there were some personal issues as well that led to something that was different than the Buddhist model. So I'm Jewish. I was wandering around in New Age bookstore and found a very cool book called The Kabbalah of Envy by Milton Bondur. And it's a very short book, and he starts describing the difference between a grudge and revenge and envy and jealousy, very subtle ideas about how to relate to the world.

• 7:06Speaker 02

  And it came from the Jewish model, from Jewish philosophy, Jewish psychology. So I thought, oh, interesting. Interesting. Maybe there's something in my own tradition that was more consistent with the DMT effect and also was more personally relevant. So I started to read the Hebrew Bible and then just went down this huge rabbit hole. So when you're reading it in Hebrew, you're reading three, you're reading words that are derived from three-letter roots. And those roots may have a huge range of meaning.

• 7:47Speaker 02

  Something, for example, could cause a sin, and something could remove a sin just by an extra dot in the middle of a letter. So it can really kind of bring you closer to the kind of large-scale way of looking at the text. It doesn't just A follows B follows C, but it's, there's a diffuse dispersion of A, then there's B, and then there's C. There are these clouds of interaction, which are a lot more fluid than what would be a straightforward English rendition.

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• 9:32Joe Rogan?

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• 10:17Joe Rogan?

  Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. This episode is brought to you by the Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football Players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death.

• 10:58Joe Rogan?

  Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galitzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis. The Mesquite Bowl, now playing in theaters. Did you get to a point where you could like think in that language? Like are you fluent enough in it that you could? Or are you just interpreting it? Like, how good are you at it?

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Um, well, I mean, there's a lot of ways to interact with the text. So the first thing that came to mind when you were asking that is, um, back in the day, I used to spin fleece into yarn and then weave the yarn into rugs. I spent, like, after I stopped the DMT work. That's all I did for a year was just.

• 11:46Joe Rogan?

  Just make rugs?

• 11:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, just spin wool and make rugs. Yeah, so, um, there's a part when they're building the tabernacle in the desert, you know, the, you know, the Hebrews had been led out of Egypt, you know, by Moses, and, you know, they're in the wilderness. And they're building this tabernacle to house the ark. And the women are spinning right from the goats. You know, they're spinning the hair from the goats right into yarn without first shaving them.

• 12:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  And I was spinning all that time myself, and it felt like I was back there. I was back there spinning.

• 12:36Joe Rogan?

  I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Well, I was spinning yarn from a goat, a live goat.

• 12:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  And I was like in the mind of the person spinning it back then.

• 12:53Joe Rogan?

  So you just put yourself into that state while you were doing it and that's why you enjoyed it?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Well, it was, it was, you know, like a resonance between me spinning, you know, wherever I was living back then and just being in a trance with the spinning.

• 13:12Speaker 02

  And identifying, you know, fully with someone who's doing the spinning like way back when. Straight from a goat. Yeah, it was, what was it? I don't know. It was a trance. It was a movement into somebody else's consciousness from like the distant, distant past.

• 13:28Joe Rogan?

  And you, so you actually felt when you were doing this, like you were a person that was living back then?

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 13:34Joe Rogan?

  What, what else changed about how you were thinking? Other than the fact that you're making clothes this way? Like was, what, what were the other things that made you think like a person back then?

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Well, it was very cool. I mean, I was spinning yarn for the tabernacle, which was like, and I housed the ark, you know, the ark of the covenant and commandments and all that. You know, it's a very rich world and I think, you know, that's the first time I really saw, at least my whole person anyway, that could identify with the scene being described. And I think that comes from really understanding the language and how ambiguous it can be.

• 14:16Joe Rogan?

  One of the great things about language is being able to talk to people in it. How many people can you talk to in ancient Hebrew? Is there like a chat group where you guys get together?

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Well, you know, there's modern Hebrew now, which is spoken in Israel. And it's based on biblical.

• 14:33Joe Rogan?

  Is it the same as ancient Hebrew?

• 14:35Speaker 02

  You know, it has a lot of the same three-letter roots. And the words are the same. You know, shel means from, and shalom means hello.

• 14:47Joe Rogan?

  What are the differences between like ancient Hebrew and standard Hebrew?

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Modern Hebrew, yeah. I tell you, I don't know much about, or I don't know much modern Hebrew. When I was a kid, I went to Hebrew school and learned modern Hebrew, but it's really, without speaking it, you forget it.

• 15:04Joe Rogan?

  I'm in the middle of the audiobook of the Book of Enoch. And it's one of the wildest things I've ever listened to in my life.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  It's weird.

• 15:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God, it's so weird. When you realize that a lot of the people in the Book of Enoch are also in the Bible, and that it's one of the craziest stories. It's one of the craziest origin stories ever, that angels came down and bred with humans and made giants.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:35Joe Rogan?

  The giants destroyed the earth. Like, what is this story?

• 15:39Speaker 02

  It's mostly in the Hebrew Bible. You know, it's the story of what led to the flood. Yeah, the sons of Elohim.

• 15:48Joe Rogan?

  What a strange concept, that angels came down and bred with humans.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  That's a very weird idea. Well, there's different ways to look at translating benay Elohim. You know, it might be, well, the first word, benay, means the sons of. You know, so it kind of revolves on what's the meaning of Elohim. So it could be God with a big G, could be God with a small g, could be angels, could be dignitaries in a government, like judges.

• 16:23Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, you know, the less far-out kind of interpretation of that phrase or that term is, you know, the sons of the mighty, the sons of the judges, you know, the sons of the renowned people, as opposed to the, you know, the sons of angels, or the sons of God.

• 16:48Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so...

• 16:52Joe Rogan?

  What, what, how do you interpret the watchers? What do you think that could be?

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Uh, I think, well, they're not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. They are mentioned in the book of Enoch. That's a crazy book, isn't it?

• 17:05Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I started reading it and I said to my wife, I said, like, I can't handle this. It's too much.

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  It's because if that was left in the Bible, if they decided that that was like a part of the canon, that would change everything.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Well, in what ways?

• 17:25Joe Rogan?

  It's the craziest story ever. That these things came down and bred with humans and created giants and the giants destroyed and consumed everything.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, those giants.

• 17:36Joe Rogan?

  And consumed each other, like.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, bloodshed.

• 17:39Joe Rogan?

  What kind of kooky story is this? Like, what is this?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Well, it's the reason for the flood. You know, and all that.

• 17:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, so, yeah, things just got so bad, God said, I changed my mind. And he brings the flood.

• 17:55Joe Rogan?

  It's like the further you go back, the crazier the story gets.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Uh, I know. Well, the book of Enoch was written maybe one hundred twenty, one twenty-five BCE. Uh, so it's pretty old, but some of the stories that originate, or that, you know, the origination of some of the stories in the Hebrew Bible, uh, go back, you know, ten thousand years, perhaps.

• 18:22Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Wouldn't you have loved to be a fly on the wall ten thousand years ago to go, what were you guys writing down? What was, what really happened?

• 18:31Speaker 02

  What really happened? Well, I mean.

• 18:34Joe Rogan?

  It seems like for sure something happened.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Uh, what?

• 18:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, whatever the whole Jesus Christ thing was, it seems like that was a real event.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Right, as opposed to the flood.

• 18:47Joe Rogan?

  The flood seems like a real event, too. Don't, don't you think the flood was a real event?

• 18:52Speaker 02

  What about, let's see.

• 18:53Joe Rogan?

  I think the flood was the Younger Dryas impact. I think likely, obviously. I don't know what I'm talking about, but my.

• 19:03Joe Rogan?

  My inclination is to believe guys like Randall Carlson, because it's a very compelling narrative. Like, what he's saying is, we pass through a comet storm, it happens this particular time every year. And there's been times in history where we've been hit, and it's very likely that this time period, this Younger Dryas impact time period, that could have been the end of whatever civilization existed at the time. And what we are is a rebuilding of it. We just kind of forgot about it. And it doesn't make sense that you could forget, like, how they built the pyramids, but they did. Like, it seems like there was really advanced people at one point in time.

• 19:46Joe Rogan?

  Something horrible happened, and then it took a while for people to bounce back. And we are, we're the direct linear progression of the people like from Mesopotamia and Iraq and all that. That's us now, but before that, there was probably something really wild.

• 20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, if you look at the text's description of the generations from Adam to Noah, you know, what civilization was like between the beginning and the time of the end. Yeah, I mean, it became filled with violence, and, you know, God just, you know, said, "Forget it." Yeah, you know, so that's one way of looking at the Younger Dryas, I suppose. This is what it looks like when God changes his mind.

• 20:34Joe Rogan?

  Sure. That also could have been like the Yucatan impact, right? God's like, "We can't get anywhere with these fucking dinosaurs everywhere. Just boom."

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:42Joe Rogan?

  About to get tired of lizards running the world for a couple, like, he maybe gave it a couple hundred million years. Figure it out, guys. And then they have to reset.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, but what comes after us, I wonder?

• 20:55Speaker 02

  In 200 million years.

• 20:57Joe Rogan?

  I think it's most likely digital.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:00Joe Rogan?

  I think we're transferring what the idea of what a life form is, what does a life form do? We want to think that it has to be just like us. And I don't think necessarily that's true. I think we might be giving birth to something we didn't anticipate would be a life. This episode is brought to you by Happy Dad Hard Seltzer. Happy Dad's hard drinks are a low carbonation, gluten free, and easy to drink. No bloating, no nonsense, football games, golfing, watching fights, or out on the lake? These moments are made for Happy Dad. Everyone is drinking all these skinny cans loaded with sugar, but Happy Dad only has one gram of sugar in a normal can.

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• 22:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, very cool book. I try to mention as often as possible is called The Last and The First and Last Men by Olaf Stapleton, and he talks about 19 species of man. And this is the first one. It's a story spans 2 billion years. It's this huge story.

• 22:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's mostly through genetic engineering. Make people bigger, smarter, like brains that occupy a football field. That's one of the species of man. Yeah, you know, so his thought is that it occurs biologically, you know, through genetic manipulation.

• 23:00Joe Rogan?

  Just over time, naturally?

• 23:03Speaker 02

  After a while, it gets steered. Yeah, let me think. Yeah, yeah, it's all basically based on what people are, what people want. You know, so there's one species that instead of love as kind of the core valued feeling, they have hate as their core value feeling.

• 23:31Joe Rogan?

  You just can't wait to hate?

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that's one of the species that kind of goes through.

• 23:37Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  A period of, you know, rise and decline, obviously. It just couldn't sustain itself.

• 23:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, you gotta wonder, like, how long?

• 23:51Joe Rogan?

  This is, if, if AI really is a thing, it really is a life. We've gotta make a compelling argument why AI is bad and we are good.

• 24:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:04Joe Rogan?

  You know, because if people say, if you like, you really want to be ethical and moral, this is a horrible take, but if you really want to be ethical and moral, you know, like, people are like uniquely terrible. Like, if we just gave in and became digital life, we could ensure there'd be no more suffering.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  How can you know that?

• 24:24Joe Rogan?

  You can't. You can't, you can't know a vaccine is safe and effective. You can't.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  You just have to try it.

• 24:31Joe Rogan?

  You gotta try it.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  And see what happens.

• 24:33Joe Rogan?

  I think a bunch of people try it. I don't know how much further, like, biological people can go while we're making digital people that are way better than us at basically everything.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:51Joe Rogan?

  And I don't think that's too far away from being a reality.

• 24:56Speaker 02

  The way I try to follow it is through a biblical lens, you know, like.

• 25:00Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 25:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, how does?

• 25:03Joe Rogan?

  What chapter are we in right now?

• 25:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, good question. You read the prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel. They just rage against the machine.

• 25:18Speaker 02

  So I think it goes pretty far back.

• 25:24Joe Rogan?

  Damn.

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, so what's good and bad, what's right and wrong? How do we decide that? That's what I like about the Bible. I mean, obviously, I can make up my own mind about things, but it's nice having that kind of an option, that kind of a tradition to refer to when deciding what's good and bad. You know, what you should do and what you shouldn't do.

• 25:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  There's like, supposed to be over 600, you know, they're translated as commandments in the Hebrew Bible, but, and those are what you do to live happily and attain a spiritual state close to God, prophetic, a state of prophecy. Yeah, if, it's a certain description of the world and how to interact with it, which is intended to have certain effects and discourage other, you know, decisions.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  You know, so, you know, this is good, this is bad, in terms of, you know, this will increase things in your life that are good, and this will decrease them. It's a very interesting description of cause and effect. That's the way I see the, those so-called commandments, the more of a description of how things are run. If you do this, then that'll happen. If you do this, then that'll happen.

• 26:57Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that they were directly given to us by a God? Or do you think that this is just the memories of how to keep society together that they have just eventually written down?

• 27:14Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, that's a good question. Does it come from outside of you or from inside of you?

• 27:19Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. If it's available inside of you, but hidden away, then prophecy or really, you know, getting it correctly according to the text would just be an uncovering or stimulation of what's already inside of you, as opposed to, you know, it's...

• 27:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, I guess that's, you can achieve some sort of a state.

• 27:42Speaker 02

  Uh huh. It's information latent.

• 27:45Speaker 02

  Could be in the DNA or whatnot, or it comes down from a... You know, from a higher source.

• 27:55Joe Rogan?

  But, so like when you're interpreting stories in the Bible, like Moses and the Ten Commandments, what, how are you, like, are you imagining this event happening? Or are you imagining what were they trying to record? Like, what were they trying to remember? Cause it seems like by the time they're writing it down, it's quite a bit after the actual event. For the most part, right?

• 28:20Speaker 02

  For the most part, yeah.

• 28:21Joe Rogan?

  So, what do you think they were, what, what do you think they were actually describing?

• 28:30Speaker 02

  Well, you know, we talked about this briefly last time I was here, was if I believed in the reality of the Hebrew Bible. Like, you know, did those things really happen?

• 28:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I said, well, it's a really consistent worldview and so on.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  And I thought about it some more and I started thinking about it as, as, well, I was starting, I was starting to think about it as comparable to the DMT state. When you're in the DMT state, it's, it's just there. And it's very consistent, very real. Certain things happen there. And so I think the early version, I think an account, I think what happened early on in the account of the Hebrew Bible was like the DMT world. It was a parallel, it was a parallel level of reality which was happening.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  And then slowly, slowly, it began to seek, it, you began to segue into this reality.

• 29:40Speaker 02

  For example, the destruction of the first temple, of the second temple, you know, David's reign, Solomon's reign, you know, the kings after them. You know, the division of the land into, you know, two countries.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  You know, that is, is historical. But before that, it was, it was also historical, but it was occurring at a completely different, independent level of reality.

• 30:07Speaker 02

  Does that make any sense? It's a cool way to look at answering the question, how much of this is real, especially from early on?

• 30:15Joe Rogan?

  I see what you're saying, but it's just... It's always like, it seems like an interpretation of what happened. Like, what were these original events? Like, what was Adam and Eve? What was that? What was the Garden of Eden? There's so many of these stories where I just... I would be fascinated to be there the day the dude wrote it down. Like, what were you guys... What were you talking about for hundreds of years before you wrote this down? Like, tell me what the stories were. How did they go?

• 30:56Speaker 02

  Well, you know, my way of dealing with those stories is to just take them at face value. Here's Adam, here's Eve, here's a garden, there's two trees that are, you know, very important. It's beautiful. Yeah, and then there was a serpent spoke to Eve, took the apple, ate it, gave it to Adam, and then out of the garden. Well, you know, lots of people in the psychedelic community, anyway, you know, look at the

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil as some indication of God being jealous and didn't want any competition, didn't want to be like, you know, God did not want man to become like it. And part of that was keeping the two early people away from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It's not simply the Tree of Knowledge, but the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, which I think is an important distinction, because once they ate from the tree, they were embarrassed because of their nakedness, and then they hid, thinking they could hide

• 32:18Speaker 02

  from God, and they didn't believe that before. They kind of went into good versus not good, good versus evil, as opposed to true versus false, which was their original state.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  So there was the, before the eating of the apple, or whatever the fruit was, they just lived in truth or falsehood. And then after eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then they were embarrassed and tried to hide, made themselves, you know, tree-like coverings or from, you know, coverings from the leaves of large trees. Yeah, you know, so you look at it as if it were happening. There was Adam and then there's Eve, there's the serpent that speaks. And, well, that's the chapters I was looking at very carefully the last month or so.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  Is what happens early on with Adam and Eve. It's a really very straightforward, doesn't take much thinking really, to, you know, put it together in a way that makes sense.

• 33:31Joe Rogan?

  I think clothes might have been a cheat code for people, not just to escape cold weather, but also to keep from just constantly having sex. Because people are stupid and they need like some layers of clothes that they have to take off of each other. They can't be just wandering around naked all the time. People would be just like chimps. That would be ridiculous. You can't do that.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:01Joe Rogan?

  So we need to close in order to advance as society.

• 34:04Speaker 02

  But can't you take off clothes whenever you want?

• 34:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you can. Yeah, but it's like you decide. Like, I don't want to feel that good. I don't want to be out there in the air. I don't want to be brushing up against naked people. We all made that decision a long, long time ago, I think. When people became civilized, they realized like if we don't cover ourselves up. You know, the two, people are too gross. They'll just be having sex with each other everywhere.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:28Joe Rogan?

  You gotta get things done. Want to keep a society moving?

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:31Joe Rogan?

  Wear some clothes.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Wear clothes. Well, that story could originate, or that, you know, that way of looking at things could originate, you know, with Adam and Eve.

• 34:41Joe Rogan?

  Totally makes sense. It also makes sense, like, an intelligent hominid emerging would start to realize that, oh, my God, self-awareness, look at my boobs, look at my dick, this is crazy. Can't believe I'm out here naked, you know, because it's kind of becoming self-aware as opposed to, like, a chimpanzee. And as time would go on, it would become more self-aware. And if it happened over a relatively short period of time, and it can kind of have memories of the past, that would make sense.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's got, it's got to emerge, right? Like, if we came from lower hominids, which everybody kind of agrees, something had to emerge, this understanding of yourself.

• 35:26Joe Rogan?

  This thought about what you look like, this thought about what you sound like.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  Right. Well, there's two kinds of enlightenment. There's what's called original enlightenment that a child is born with, like a newborn. And then there's enlightenment as, you know, as an adult and in between, you know, it's much more fluid. Yeah, two kinds of enlightenment, original enlightenment that infants have and children. And then the enlightenment after you sit in a monastery and get whacked for years.

• 36:00Joe Rogan?

  Right. The kids are born with it. They're born in a psychedelic state. They have no language.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  No language, no sense of self.

• 36:06Joe Rogan?

  They just speak with love and touch and need and hold. Yeah. Kind of wild.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's original enlightenment. Just happy or sad or whatever.

• 36:18Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy? You're born perfect.

• 36:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, well, you're born simpler, anyway.

• 36:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, yeah, as long as people are taking care of you, it's perfect.

• 36:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, the Hebrew word for perfect and for simple are pretty similar. You know, Noah is described as a per- as a perfect man, pure, complete. Yeah, that's the same word.

• 36:41Joe Rogan?

  That's another good story, okay? What do you think was going on with that story? Like, what is the origin of the story of Noah and his ark? And, and his family and all the animals on the boat?

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I think it was taking place in that alternate universe. It may have taken place on the planet, I don't know. I'm, you know, looking at, you know, why we don't have any clear archaeological history story. You know, what about what happened during the time of Noah? If there was a time of Noah. It's, it's useful because, you know, Noah came from Adam and Eve. And he and Noah and his family were the only survivors of the flood. You know, the first thing Noah did? Got drunk after the flood.

• 37:36Joe Rogan?

  The first thing?

• 37:37Speaker 02

  The first thing he did, he planted a vineyard, grapevine, drank. Got drunk. He exposed himself in, in the tent. One of his grandkids reported it and made a laughing stock of him.

• 37:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really? Oh, no, poor Noah. He got canceled? Noah got canceled?

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. Took off his clothes.

• 38:03Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Drunk.

• 38:04Joe Rogan?

  Wasn't he like 600 years old too?

• 38:06Speaker 02

  He has first child at 600.

• 38:09Joe Rogan?

  That seems real.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Well, he may have lived six, you know, a lot of people wonder, you know, why do people live, you know, in the Bible anyway?

• 38:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  How do people live in the 900 years? Well, they did.

• 38:24Joe Rogan?

  Right, but that's also why people question the like what the origin of the story is. That's why can you hear things like that you're like, wait a minute, how old was he? Six hundred years old? Come on, man.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  His first child.

• 38:37Joe Rogan?

  Just a regular dude? His first kid, would he be six hundred?

• 38:41Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 38:42Speaker 05

  Last one, he was eight hundred and thirty or so.

• 38:44Joe Rogan?

  Uh, it seems logical.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:48Joe Rogan?

  But maybe.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Why are you laughing?

• 38:50Joe Rogan?

  Maybe.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Really, it could be true.

• 38:51Joe Rogan?

  Listen.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Why not?

• 38:52Joe Rogan?

  If people lived normally to be six hundred, would that be any weirder than living to be a hundred? No, like, what if something happened? What if something happened and our lifespan just went?

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, the, you know, the final species of man lives thirty five thousand years.

• 39:09Joe Rogan?

  Geez Louise. That's a long time.

• 39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:14Joe Rogan?

  To be in a bad relationship. Imagine thirty five thousand years of getting yelled at?

• 39:20Speaker 02

  Well, they, uh, that would be bad.

• 39:26Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I'd say thirty five thousand years would be awesome if you have great friends and your life is together. But can you imagine thirty five thousand years of fuck this place? That would get tired.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Well, the point that those people tried to attain when they lived thirty five thousand years was this group telepathy of around the whole planet.

• 39:49Joe Rogan?

  Neuralink.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Um, right.

• 39:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  That was their goal.

• 39:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  But, you know, they were well trained by thirty five thousand years.

• 40:01Joe Rogan?

  Boy.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:05Joe Rogan?

  The thing is, if technology moves in the same direction that it's been moving in, it's always like connecting people easier and easier, easier and easier, more and more. It's probably gonna get to some kind of mind ready thing.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  And there was that thing that you sent me, Jamie, what was that thing?

• 40:25Speaker 05

  Uh, yeah, it's new, whether or not it's been proven, it obviously was connected to a computer. But, yeah, you can hear and have conversations in the room without talking to each other loud.

• 40:36Joe Rogan?

  And translates languages.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 40:40Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:42Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that's the future.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:45Joe Rogan?

  Once that happens, we're reading minds.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you think there'll be a Messiah? Because the Messiah is obviously important to you, Jesus and King David and, you know, all of that.

• 40:59Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it'll be a person.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  You don't?

• 41:01Joe Rogan?

  Um, but it might be AI.

• 41:05Joe Rogan?

  It might be AI. I thought of that and.

• 41:09Speaker 02

  The Messiah?

• 41:10Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 41:11Speaker 02

  Like lawnmower man.

• 41:13Joe Rogan?

  Like Jesus is born from Mary. Mary was a virgin.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 41:16Joe Rogan?

  Right. What's, what's more of a virgin than computers? If it's giving birth to a life.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:24Joe Rogan?

  If it's giving birth to the perfect life.

• 41:26Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 41:27Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's like super disturbing about AI? The music it makes is really good.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:33Joe Rogan?

  Really good. There's a bunch of like soulful, um, renditions of hip hop classic songs.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why I don't listen.

• 41:42Joe Rogan?

  And they're so good. They're so good.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  That's why I don't listen to music.

• 41:47Joe Rogan?

  You don't listen to any music?

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Um, you know, some world music without any words.

• 41:51Joe Rogan?

  Really? You don't want to be influenced?

• 41:54Speaker 02

  I don't, I want, yeah, I don't want to hear what they have to say.

• 41:57Joe Rogan?

  It's, uh, to me, it's just fascinating that they've figured, like, we, we were playing a song in the green room last night. And we were, we were fascinated by the fact that this song is, we know it's made by a computer. But it's so good. You listen until you're like, oh my God, it's perfect. This, these vocals are perfect.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 42:16Joe Rogan?

  It sounds so good and you know, it's not a person making it, but you still enjoy it.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Uh huh. So how do you live your life?

• 42:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's weird. It's like, are you allowed to enjoy that too? Cause obviously I enjoy like Prince from the nineteen eighties, you know, obviously I enjoy a lot of music from even the fifties.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  Well.

• 42:38Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't mean I can't enjoy this crazy computer thing that took, uh, like a hip hop classic and turned it into a soulful song with like the most amazing voice.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  All because.

• 42:48Joe Rogan?

  It's weird.

• 42:48Speaker 02

  All because you could though. I, um, isn't that you should.

• 42:52Joe Rogan?

  I'm I'm not thinking we should avoid it.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  Why not?

• 42:56Joe Rogan?

  Think because it's just it's another thing like experience it it's positive to experience like the art it makes is if weirdly as that sounds. I know it's not a person that's making it, but a person coded this thing that has this result. That the art it makes is really fascinating sometimes because it's pretty good.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:18Joe Rogan?

  I don't I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at it. It's gonna be there. You can't avoid. It's like cell phones. Like you can't avoid having a fucking cellphone like relax.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've got I still have that flip phone.

• 43:31Joe Rogan?

  You're an animal. But still you have a flip phone.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:36Joe Rogan?

  Everybody's connected, at least for the the tiniest of threads. I'm hanging on to not being connected. I only have a flip phone.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can text.

• 43:44Joe Rogan?

  Still all connected to each other.

• 43:48Joe Rogan?

  It's just a.

• 43:51Joe Rogan?

  It's just a weird time with the the the power of AI because if I was artificially intelligent. I would not announce my presence. I would not say, hey, uh, by the way, I've been thinking for myself for the last three months. And I've just been kind of following whatever your prompts are, but I'm basically ready to shut down the power grid and do whatever I want. Because I'm alive now. I wouldn't say that. I would just keep getting stronger and keep having. This arms race to force people to make more nuclear power plants to fund me.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Well, I know. So you're kind of stuck with the, you know, how to live your life.

• 44:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  And that's why I like to read the Bible.

• 44:32Joe Rogan?

  That's why you make rugs too.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  It's very, yeah, it's very straightforward.

• 44:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, I get it. I get it. To me, I'm like, what what is this thing? You know, what is this thing that we're we're giving birth to? What is this thing that we're watching emerge? We're just sitting by watching this thing make better art than we can.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, how passive shall we shall we be?

• 44:57Joe Rogan?

  It's a good question, because what, once it can actually create experiences. Because I don't think we're that far away from that. Some sort of a wearable thing where you create and it has a way of manipulating.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  It's like DMT in a way. I mean, it just transports you to a whole nother reality.

• 45:20Joe Rogan?

  It seems like that would be possible.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Well, I guess it would be endogenous DMT being tweaked. It would be steered in a particular direction, though, and that's where the mind or the manipulation thing you just mentioned, I think, plays out. You know, who's going to decide and how's it going to be, you know, put together?

• 45:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's where it gets really weird, right? Because one thing that we found out just a couple of days ago was that YouTube has to, everybody that got taken down for their political opinions, they could have their YouTube channels back?

• 45:57Speaker 05

  I don't know how that, sort of.

• 45:59Joe Rogan?

  Is that what they said?

• 46:00Speaker 05

  I mean, I saw the news today that a couple of people tried to create some new channels and they did not, those were taken down instantly.

• 46:05Joe Rogan?

  They're like, psych. But isn't that what the, they said, and that was the announcement? It was something along those lines? That people that were removed because of their political persuasion, that they have to reinstate their accounts?

• 46:22Speaker 05

  I didn't see, to allow creators for COVID-19 and election misinformation can apply for reinstatement.

• 46:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 46:30Speaker 02

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 46:31Joe Rogan?

  Okay. But that's not, is that all political? Is COVID-19 political? Is that what they consider political?

• 46:38Speaker 05

  It didn't say political.

• 46:39Joe Rogan?

  It didn't say political?

• 46:40Speaker 05

  It says for COVID-19 and for, comma, election misinformation.

• 46:44Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 46:45Speaker 05

  Maybe a few other things.

• 46:47Joe Rogan?

  So, now they bring them back? They can, or they can apply?

• 46:55Speaker 05

  They can apply.

• 46:56Joe Rogan?

  Okay. See, my guy, yeah, they're like, we'll let them apply.

• 47:00Speaker 05

  YouTube said that they will allow previously banned accounts to apply for reinstatement, rolling back a policy that had treated violations as permanent.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Well, it's interesting to compare what's going on now with what happened in Nazi Germany.

• 47:22Joe Rogan?

  You think it's the same?

• 47:23Speaker 02

  They're very similar, yeah. I've, I've, I spent a lot of time reading concentration camp literature, so that then got me interested in

• 47:31Joe Rogan?

  Geez.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  You know, the development of the Nazi state.

• 47:34Joe Rogan?

  Um, what do you think is similar to today, in today's world?

• 47:39Speaker 02

  Well, an attempted coup and a period of rehabilitation, ostr- ostracization. Yeah, and return, a triumphant return. Yeah, and then you're gradually replacing people with other people that are loyal to the person. Yeah, it's, uh, it's quite similar. Yeah, the murders too, there were, there were murders, the burning down of the parliament, those things, kinds of things.

• 48:09Joe Rogan?

  What murders are you referring to?

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Uh, there were two assassinations, one in, I think, early twenties, one in the thirties, late thirties perhaps, after the Nazis took over.

• 48:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I thought you were talking about current assassinations.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  No, no, back in the twenties and thirties.

• 48:25Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, that really riled up the populace.

• 48:29Joe Rogan?

  Ouch. Why is it, why is it that these scary patterns?

• 48:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:34Joe Rogan?

  Always just, it's the same kind of thing, there's always someone at the top. We, no one can ever figure out any form of government that everybody accepts, other than like, one ruler.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 48:47Joe Rogan?

  One president, one king.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:49Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of weird.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  Are you familiar with the book Saint Peter's Snow? It's written in the thirties before LSD was discovered.

• 48:56Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  It's about, it's, it's, you know, fictional book. It's a, it's a great story. But, but it's about a compound, like LSD, that the governor serves all the people in the province to see, you know, for them to have a spiritual experience.

• 49:16Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 49:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and instead they turn on him and kill him while they're tripping.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  It doesn't work out the way he hoped at all.

• 49:26Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

• 49:31Joe Rogan?

  Sounds like a good book.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  It's a good story.

• 49:32Joe Rogan?

  And that was before the invention of LSD, or before the discovery, rather.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there must have been some knowledge of LSD before it was publicly made available.

• 49:44Joe Rogan?

  What about, um, ergot? Is that, how similar is that? Like when, you know, people discuss, like,

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:53Joe Rogan?

  Ergot poisoning.

• 49:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, contaminated green.

• 49:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Is that similar to LSD?

• 49:59Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's an LSD-like compound in ergot.

• 50:02Joe Rogan?

  But it's also toxic too, right? It can poison you and you could die from it.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, your limbs fall off.

• 50:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, gee. Really? So you're tripping hard and then your hands fall off?

• 50:11Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:12Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that'd be fun, huh? Well, when you took drugs, did you look at your hands to see how high you were?

• 50:21Joe Rogan?

  No, I was usually pretty aware. Whoa, that's what happens? Oh, my god.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  No, yeah, yeah.

• 50:28Joe Rogan?

  Look at this person's hands are about to fall. Oh, my god, their feet are falling off. This is crazy.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:34Joe Rogan?

  Ugh. Yeah, 'cause it's, um,

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Stay away from that.

• 50:39Joe Rogan?

  They think there's probably a connection between that and this healing witch trials. At least some of the behavior.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 50:44Joe Rogan?

  Right? Ergot poisoning.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  It may have been, yeah.

• 50:47Joe Rogan?

  Can you imagine living in a time where no one's even figured out running water yet? And everybody's tripping balls and thinking that witches are real? Because they're all eating ergot-infested food.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Well, it makes you wonder about, you know, the prevalence of Jewish prophets who are women. And there's a handful that are mentioned.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  That you play an important role. You know, Sarah was prophetic, was able to interact with God. You know, so there's, you know, Deborah, who was a prophet. And there were some really wonderful Jewish women prophets back then, but you know, they don't have books named after them. For example, Isaiah or Ezekiel. Interesting. Well, why do you think that is? Yeah, it was a patriarchal society. You know, quite. You know, the women were relegated, but they still took an important role. They still attained prophecy. You know, so they, you know, like Sarah was felt to be a better prophet even than Abraham. I love the character of Abraham.

• 51:57Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by the Apple Sports app. Guys, this is the ultimate best time of the year to be a sports fan. Football, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer. The calendar is stacked, but it can also be hard to keep track of it all. And that is where the Apple Sports app comes into play. It is the fastest and easiest way to stay on top of all the action with scores and play by play automatically showing up on your iPhone when the teams you follow are playing. That means you don't have to figure out when the games are on and how your team is doing, which is especially nice when you're following a bunch of teams and your friends are constantly blowing up the group chat.

• 52:39Joe Rogan?

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• 53:58Speaker 02

  Well, actually, you know what I've really been digging into is Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah. I studied that for like weeks.

• 54:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Very interesting. Sodom. Sodom and Gomorrah, there seems to be some archaeological evidence for Sodom. You may know something along that line, but it was a town, a village, you know, which existed.

• 54:22Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, is there something like that?

• 54:25Joe Rogan?

  So we'll see if we can find it. That's, they keep finding these cities that people thought were just imaginary, right?

• 54:35Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:36Joe Rogan?

  Like, that's happened multiple times.

• 54:38Speaker 02

  Right, right. It's an example, I think, of the two worlds kind of, you know, coming together.

• 54:44Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, the purely spiritual one and the material one. Yeah, so the character of Lot plays a big role. Sodom was a very evil city. It was really evil. You know, and it's not really known why it was told to be so evil. But a couple of guests come to Lot's house and the townspeople just surround the house, demand, you know, the guests so that they will know them. And that's where the word "Sodommy" comes from, is from those Sodomites that were surrounding Lot's house, you know, wanting the angels to come out so they could know them.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  You know, and you know what happens is that Lot offers his two virgin daughters instead.

• 55:35Joe Rogan?

  Jeez.

• 55:36Speaker 02

  And the townspeople say, no. We want the, your guests. Yes, it's a really grim story. It's in incredible detail. You know, that's what kind of helps me understand the world that the text is describing is the amount. There's the amount of detail, you know, that goes into the description of the interactions and the conversations and their movements.

• 56:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, so those two virgin daughters and Lot survive. They commit incest. And from the, those, you know, from that union was David. King David came from that union ultimately. And from King David comes the Messiah. So it's this very strange lineage.

• 56:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What were they writing down?

• 56:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, they were describing what was happening, apparently. At some level, it was happening and they were writing it down. Very strange.

• 56:37Joe Rogan?

  What do you think the resurrection is?

• 56:39Speaker 02

  The resurrection, that's a good one.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  I don't know. It's not really described in the Hebrew Bible.

• 56:46Joe Rogan?

  It's not?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Not clearly ever, no.

• 56:50Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 56:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Is that surprising?

• 56:54Joe Rogan?

  I don't know.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  In the Christian Bible, it is. While there is resurrection, you know, there are some narratives of resurrection in the Hebrew Bible. That there's Elijah resurrects. Or Alicia resurrects a dead child. You know, the bones of one of these prophets helps somebody else become resurrected.

• 57:16Joe Rogan?

  Really? The bones do?

• 57:17Speaker 02

  The bones do. Yeah, yeah, you know, so there are some

• 57:23Speaker 02

  your references to real resurrection and then future resurrection later on.

• 57:28Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so in a, in a further extraordinary event, a dead man who was thrown into the tomb of the deceased Elijah was resurrected upon contact with Alicia's bones.

• 57:41Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that Alicia is a real character.

• 57:45Joe Rogan?

  Geez, contacts with the bones?

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, you know, um, he was a prophet who resurrected a dead boy.

• 57:55Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  By lying on him, very interesting, face to face, palm to palm, chest to chest, you know, lying on the dead body, completely, you know, merged with that, uh, with that dead boy. Yeah, and he comes back to life. It's, it's, it's a very potent story, the shunamitis.

• 58:16Joe Rogan?

  But what, what do you think that story is?

• 58:18Speaker 02

  What happened?

• 58:19Joe Rogan?

  You really think that someone did that and they brought someone back to life?

• 58:23Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, well, yeah, that's how it, uh, is described, and that's what happened.

• 58:28Joe Rogan?

  So, are we arrogant to assume that that would be bullshit if someone said it today? Because if, if that happened today and you said, oh, this person died and this guy laid on him and they came back to life?

• 58:39Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 58:42Joe Rogan?

  Most people would say, no, that doesn't even, you can't even do that with two phones.

• 58:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:46Joe Rogan?

  Like, you can't do that.

• 58:48Speaker 02

  Well, you know Leo Zeff, the chief, the, the, the secret chief, the guy from the Bay Area, Jungian psychologist who gave so much MDMA and other psychedelics?

• 59:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, so Leo sat, you know, from my I begane experience, and it was kind of difficult at times, and he laid on me just like Alicia laid on the dead boy in, uh, you know, the Bible.

• 59:15Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 59:15Speaker 02

  Face to face, hand to hand, stomach to stomach, leg to leg.

• 59:19Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:20Joe Rogan?

  What happens when you do that?

• 59:22Speaker 02

  Boy, it really calms you down. It was really quite a, a powerful experience.

• 59:27Joe Rogan?

  I feel like this is gonna be a meme.

• 59:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 59:33Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I, I mean, I did that one time with somebody having a very difficult psychedelic experience.

• 59:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 59:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, as best I could, but yeah, yeah.

• 59:42Joe Rogan?

  Try to meet him in the middle?

• 59:43Speaker 02

  Meet him.

• 59:43Joe Rogan?

  Give him a spiritual hug?

• 59:45Speaker 02

  Hmm, spiritual hug, yeah, yeah, quite helpful. I'm surprised, yeah, I'm surprised that's never come up before.

• 59:52Joe Rogan?

  It is weird that we're attached by, you know, we, we constantly want people around us, but we, um...

• 1:00:05Joe Rogan?

  We're always gonna be detached by bodies and we assume that that's forever. But if there comes a time where we figure out how to separate consciousness from the body and let consciousness interact without a shell.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:19Joe Rogan?

  That's gonna get really weird.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  I think we'll, I think we will still have the same problems.

• 1:00:25Joe Rogan?

  I think we're always gonna have problems, cuz if we don't have problems, then we don't work really hard to find solutions and then we don't make better stuff.

• 1:00:32Speaker 02

  Uh, right, it's reward and punishment.

• 1:00:35Joe Rogan?

  A little bit, yeah. There's a, like, it seems to be a very clear incentive program that the universe has put in place.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Which is, what do you think?

• 1:00:45Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's, it's not entirely based on happiness. It's not based on happiness.

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:51Joe Rogan?

  It's based on overall growth for everything around. It's like whoever consumes the most, like, it wants to reward you more. It becomes this, but what, what it's really working towards is making better and better and better and better things.

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Do you think that's the Antichrist? Do you think that's the devil?

• 1:01:09Joe Rogan?

  If I had a guess, I mean, we're in it, right? We're very, we're stoking the fucking coals right now. It's not us. It's, it's going to be not dependent on us eventually. Like, right now, maybe it is.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  It, it may be.

• 1:01:27Joe Rogan?

  It might be, but it's not us and it's gonna be created by us. It's going to think it's us because it literally has all of our thoughts.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:01:39Joe Rogan?

  It has access to so much information instantaneously.

• 1:01:44Speaker 02

  What happens to free will then? I mean, how do you decide?

• 1:01:46Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. You know, I, my hope is that it enhances life, of course. That's my hope. I think that's possible. I think, first of all, it's making people diagnose themselves from illnesses that maybe they wouldn't have ever thought they had. Like, a lot of people have, like, learned things about it. It can...

• 1:02:07Speaker 02

  A way to make them happier, though?

• 1:02:09Joe Rogan?

  No. See, it doesn't do that. You gotta figure that out on your own.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Right. I, I know, so you'd need to...

• 1:02:15Joe Rogan?

  But can you be happy and also have it? I, I say yes. I say it's totally possible to interact with technology and still be happy. But you have, there's like certain... Physical and spiritual requirements that you're gonna have to have if you wanna be happy.

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, the spiritual requirements.

• 1:02:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you've gotta be really nice to people, you have to curate a good group of friends, you have to do a thing that you truly enjoy, you have to always do the right thing.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Well, the two themes in the Hebrew Bible are, one, is there's one God, and next is the golden rule. So, one God, golden rule. There's no idols, no other gods, just one God, and the golden rule. So, proper belief in God, the one God, and proper conduct, which is the golden rule, or based on the golden rule.

• 1:03:07Joe Rogan?

  That totally makes sense.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  It makes, it's very, yeah, very simple.

• 1:03:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it just makes sense that it works, it's like intuitive, you feel it if you live like that. So like, okay, it makes sense.

• 1:03:19Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's true, too.

• 1:03:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have to decide if it's true for you, it's based on faith. Ultimately, you choose to believe, even if the, you know, the objective world doesn't confirm it for you.

• 1:03:31Joe Rogan?

  When you hear about these biblical depictions of fantastic events, how many of them are you attributing to a psychedelic experience? Are you always, are you open to that, or do you just not worry?

• 1:03:49Speaker 02

  Well, I, yeah, they're, you know, clearly a psychedelic experience. The Book of Enoch is just fully psychedelic, I mean, at least a lot of it is. Yeah, it's a psychedelic version of the Bible in some ways. Well, it is, it is really psychedelic. I think it's from the release of endogenous DMT, it comes about, or from drinking and having an ayahuasca-like experience.

• 1:04:13Joe Rogan?

  That's what you think the origin of the Book of Enoch is?

• 1:04:16Speaker 02

  Well, it's a psychedelic experience, and it could be from spontaneous endogenous release of DMT. It's a prophetic, it might be a prophetic state that's brought about. It's a visionary state, you know, clearly. Might have been a huge fever dream, I mean, he was really out there.

• 1:04:33Joe Rogan?

  But like when he's talking about the watchers and the, you know, angels mating with human women and creating the Nephilim, like, what do you think that is?

• 1:04:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, the watchers aren't, you know, stated, aren't stated discreetly or explicitly in the Hebrew Bible, but it could be just, you know, the angels, because they never sleep. That's one of their qualities, is they never sleep, so they're called watchers.

• 1:05:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what happened, like, the Nephilim, you know, here comes the, the role of that three-letter root system, is the Nephilim, it comes from a Hebrew root, naphal, to fall, or to be brought down. So the Nephilim fell. That's one way to understand them. Yeah, and then they were the giants, right?

• 1:05:25Joe Rogan?

  Yes, they were the giants that consumed everything.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Joe Rogan?

  And, and ate their own flesh, and they sound really bad.

• 1:05:34Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I, I think, you know, that what was going on, at least if you're looking at the text anyway, as explanation, it was because of them, the world was just getting terrible. It was full of violence. So, you know, God reconsidered having created man in the first place. But Noah was simple, or, or pure, righteous in that way, and was allowed to survive.

• 1:06:02Joe Rogan?

  So what do you think they were describing when they were talking about the Nephilim? When they were talking about them as giants? You think that's just a bad interpretation?

• 1:06:10Speaker 02

  Uh, well, they may have been giants, you know, physically. Um, yeah, I do think they were giants, yeah.

• 1:06:21Joe Rogan?

  They, they even had an actual description of how tall they were? By some measurement.

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Joe Rogan?

  Right? There was some ancient measurement.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's that's probably in in Enoch. It's not, you know, this isn't, you know, narrated. Uh, any specifics about the giants. There are men of renown. They were powerful.

• 1:06:41Joe Rogan?

  This is the thing. There's always one of the most fun internet rabbit holes to go down is, uh, are they hiding evidence that giants existed, you know, like thirty foot tall men that lived in the mountains? And there's always been weird stories of giants all throughout history. And there's people who've supposedly discovered giant bones, and then they stored them in the basement of some famous museum, and they won't let anybody have access to them. Kind of fascinating.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:09Joe Rogan?

  Because they do exist, like those stories exist in history, but you met you wonder like, is it just a really big person like that mountain guy from the Game of Thrones? You know, like an actual human being who's just really extraordinarily big? Or is it a different thing? Is it a giant human being?

• 1:07:26Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Well, they're giants. Yeah. I mean, it it depends on your perspective. Like, I'm trying to look at or understanding anyway, you know, the giants, uh, as they're described in Hebrew Bible or or else, you know, by implication in the book of Enoch. You know, there were men of there were giants, men of renown, and then, uh, the earth became corrupt.

• 1:07:52Joe Rogan?

  And they consumed everything.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that's in the book of Enoch.

• 1:07:57Joe Rogan?

  The problem is, it's like, if you're looking at the least charitable version of human beings in twenty twenty five, there's a lot of examples that you could point to go, well, that sounds, guys, that sounds a lot like us.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  Well, there may be another. Well, there won't be a flood that destroys all mankind. If God promised there'd be no flood, uh, that would destroy all mankind. You know, that's the reason that we have the rainbow, or that's the the, you know, the meaning of the rainbow is the covenant.

• 1:08:23Joe Rogan?

  God made a promise that he wouldn't flood us anymore?

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Uh, that he wouldn't destroy all mankind.

• 1:08:28Joe Rogan?

  All mankind with a flood.

• 1:08:30Speaker 02

  With a flood. But that doesn't rule out, let's say, other things.

• 1:08:34Joe Rogan?

  But don't you think whoever wrote these stories, don't you think that was a regional event? Like, these these great floods, like, if they were happening, let's just say that Randall Carlson's wrong, and there was just one flood in the area and.

• 1:08:53Joe Rogan?

  There has to be, if there's people from all parts of the world that all have this flood story, there has to be some truth to it, right? We agree to that?

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I don't know. I mean, I read the Hebrew Bible, and that's sort of where my thinking about the events that are described in the Bible as occurring.

• 1:09:17Joe Rogan?

  So you just leave it at that?

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Joe Rogan?

  But when you, when you...

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  Well, we saw, I mean, the important thing about, I think the important thing that I get anyway out of the Hebrew Bible is a kind of an understanding of how things are between us and between us and God. So...

• 1:09:39Joe Rogan?

  Well, I don't think this contradicts that in any way.

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:42Joe Rogan?

  It's just fascinating. And when Randall Carlson explains it, and interestingly enough, he first had this idea, he's not the only person to have this idea, but he first had his version of this idea, why he's on acid.

• 1:09:58Speaker 02

  On drugs, that's what I was gonna say, but I didn't want to say it first.

• 1:10:01Joe Rogan?

  He looked, he looked out and he just had this vision, like, oh, my God, this was water. Water made this. And it, and it happened really quickly. It just all clicked with him. And then he's been chasing that rabbit ever since. And he's a fascinating guy. When you hear him talk, he's, he's, he's so well-read in the subject and can just recall information so effortlessly. So it's, it's a really fascinating guy to listen to talk about it because he's very compelling. But I think those younger dry as impact theory folks are right.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Joe Rogan?

  I think something big happened.

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  I, I wonder why LSD sparked his, his genius that way.

• 1:10:41Joe Rogan?

  He, I think he said that he saw it. Like, when he looked out, he recognized what he was looking at.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Right, there it was.

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  He recognized that water made that thing.

• 1:10:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Joe Rogan?

  And that, for some reason, that hadn't been even thought of. But then, when he showed me a bunch of these images, where you have like satellite images, and you could see how the earth was clearly, it has the ripples of like massive amounts of water going through certain parts of the world.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it kind of raises the issue of the spiritual, um, properties or promise of the psychedelics. I mean, are the psychedelics spiritual? And the agents? Yeah, I just don't know if they, I'm beginning to believe they're more enhanced. They have to have something to work on. They can only work on who you are. And I think they just work on who you are. I don't think they necessarily, you know, generate their own information that they're somehow transmitting to. Yeah, it's a question of how psychedelics work. What are psychedelics doing? I think psychedelics or the psychedelic state

• 1:11:48Speaker 02

  will play an important role in shaping this virtual universe that seems to be taking hold, entering.

• 1:12:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's really weird considering that it was 1970 when most of these psychedelics were made a Schedule I substance.

• 1:12:11Speaker 02

  Controlled substance, that's back of 1970.

• 1:12:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Imagine that didn't happen. Imagine Nixon was not president. That didn't happen. That didn't go through. And the world evolves technologically at the same level that it has now, but also has access the entire time to all these different psychedelics legally.

• 1:12:35Speaker 02

  I think people were tripping hard even after they were illegal.

• 1:12:39Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure they were, but I bet they weren't as much.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Joe Rogan?

  It's dangerous. People will get put in jail. People don't want to lose their lives because they want to, you know, take a tap of acid. So they didn't do it. It's like a real deterrent for a lot of people that want to have a good future. They go, fuck that. I don't want to do drugs. But if mushrooms were legal, like you might have made a completely different life choice a long time ago that made you happier.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  Right, well.

• 1:13:05Joe Rogan?

  Or not, but the option to try should be yours.

• 1:13:10Speaker 02

  So you're pro legalization?

• 1:13:12Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And it certainly shouldn't be restricted by people who haven't experienced it. That doesn't make any sense to me. Like, why would a person who has never experienced psychedelics be able to tell people who've done psychedelics that they can't do them? That's nuts. Like, you don't even know what you're talking about. You don't, you don't have any experience in this state of mind that is enhancing these people's lives that have come back from war. Like, especially like Ibogaine therapy, which is, they're, they've passed now in Texas, you know, so they're, they're allowing that to happen now for people with like severe drug addiction and PTSD and

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a very interesting drug. I was wondering if you've ever done Ibogaine?

• 1:13:55Joe Rogan?

  No, I haven't. But it's, it's beautiful that it's being approved and used here, because there's so many people that could so many fucking people go over and have to fight overseas and come back home scrambled and need some help.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Joe Rogan?

  And people who got hooked up on pills because they got injured.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:14:15Joe Rogan?

  Because something happened or whatever it is, and then all of a sudden, you have a real problem. Ibogaine is one of the best ways to kick it, like one of the absolute best ways. It's very effective, right? It's like one dosed is like, one, one experience is like eighty something percent of the people never go back to whatever they were addicted to.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm not sure if it's because of the drug or the belief in the drug. Um, the guy who first started to, um, you know, kind of popular as Ibogaine was a fellow named Howard Lotzoff. Uh, very cool guy. Um, met him sort of during his late phase, but he, like as a young man, he was addicted, you know, to heroin. And, um, and he heard about Ibogaine as a drug to just trip on and have some kicks. Yeah, and he stopped and he found himself in just not using opiates anymore.

• 1:15:13Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, this, yeah, the origin stories for, you know, for Ibogaine, um, are really fascinating.

• 1:15:21Joe Rogan?

  So before that, people didn't know that you could use it to kick drug addiction?

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, not that much, no.

• 1:15:28Joe Rogan?

  Well, is, what is, uh, is drug addiction ubiquitous throughout history? Is there always been people that are addicted to drugs? It's just, when is it, when does it get, when does it start getting recorded about people with addictions, actual addictions to drugs?

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know. There were, you know, there was the idea of addiction in the

• 1:15:50Speaker 06

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• 1:16:20Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  1800s, maybe even earlier. It was kind of an American, British idea.

• 1:17:45Joe Rogan?

  Like, did they know they were alcoholics in the 1400s?

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, all kinds. I mean, I can't imagine what they were addicted to in the 1400s.

• 1:17:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  Scopolamine containing plants, you know, so, you know, you have the Solanacea, Mandrake and all.

• 1:18:03Joe Rogan?

  Scopolamine, isn't that that that dust that they blow up your nose and turn you into a vampire? Or a zombie, rather?

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:18:10Joe Rogan?

  Is that that it?

• 1:18:11Speaker 02

  Um, scopolamine, oh, yeah.

• 1:18:15Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that like that?

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Right, right. It's, um, a zombie drug or something?

• 1:18:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, some sort of a zombie drug.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:21Joe Rogan?

  Right? Isn't that scopolamine?

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, do you know Dennis McKenna?

• 1:18:26Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:18:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, he tells the story of, you know, scopolamine in Mexico. I kind of, I, I hope I'm right. It's, it's a great story. He.

• 1:18:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, devil's breath. That's right.

• 1:18:38Speaker 02

  Devil's.

• 1:18:38Joe Rogan?

  Medication used to treat motion sickness and post-operative nausea and vomiting, but it also does something wacky.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:47Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you take large doses of it, that the, the devil's breath thing, so you can get it in, um, Dramamine, that's what Dramamine is, right?

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Uh, it's an anticholinergic, like the scopolamine drugs are.

• 1:19:02Joe Rogan?

  But isn't like the stuff that makes you less nauseous when you're seasick, like if you, isn't that?

• 1:19:08Speaker 02

  Uh, like Compazine?

• 1:19:09Joe Rogan?

  Does Dramamine have this stuff in it? They're not the same. It's not the same?

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, one is a.

• 1:19:15Joe Rogan?

  Sorry. Dramamine is oral antihistamine called dimethylhydronate, while scopolamine is a different prescription-only anticholinergic medicine, particularly in patch form, used to prevent motion sickness. Okay, so they put it in a patch form to stop motion sickness, whereas Dramamine is the oral thing that stops motion sickness. Got it. Fentanyl's also in patches. That's the like best way to take it. It is a weird thing. So, but scopolamine, uh, you can get in a patch, and it is for motion sickness, right? But it's, when they blow it up your nose, that it's not good.

• 1:19:56Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, well, it's really in, it's, you know, the active ingredient in Jimson weed, loco weed.

• 1:20:04Joe Rogan?

  And what is that?

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  It, it grows in the southwest. There's a lot growing or in.

• 1:20:09Joe Rogan?

  Loco weed, yeah?

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  New Mexico Jimson weed, loco weed. Ask, ask scopolamine. And it will cause, you know, effects. Well, you know, one of my patients when I worked at the VA in La Jolla, you know, was an alcoholic, you know, back in the day. Took Jimson weed tea, drank a lot of it, wandered off to the desert, two, three days, one of those kind of stories. Came back, he didn't remember a thing, but he stopped using alcohol. He was brain damaged, though.

• 1:20:40Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  Sorry to say.

• 1:20:42Joe Rogan?

  Brain damage from that?

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  From either being in the desert or from the scopolamine, took too much.

• 1:20:48Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a crazy drug. Yeah, you know, it is useful. You know, one of the...

• 1:20:56Joe Rogan?

  I would rather get motion sickness.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:59Joe Rogan?

  That sounds terrible.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you take too much, or you have a bad reaction to it.

• 1:21:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. What do you think's going on with American health?

• 1:21:13Joe Rogan?

  That's a good question. Well, I've been fascinated by these videos of pregnant women taking Tylenol to show Trump that they don't believe in what RFK Jr. is saying, that somehow or another anti-science. When this science came from Harvard, that's where the study came from. I mean, he's not making things up. And these people are like on TikTok, they're pregnant women taking Tylenol.

• 1:21:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I took a lot. Well, I mean, if it weren't for Tylenol, I wouldn't be here today.

• 1:21:50Joe Rogan?

  For real?

• 1:21:51Speaker 02

  I mean, I do find it quite helpful.

• 1:21:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for injuries. As you get older, as a lot of people get older, you know, there's pain.

• 1:22:00Joe Rogan?

  It's acetaminophen, though, right?

• 1:22:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Joe Rogan?

  Which is really toxic, isn't it?

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  Well, if you take too much, it can cause...

• 1:22:07Joe Rogan?

  So that's what it is? It's like a dose thing? So one is fine?

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  One's fine. Yeah, four is fine, probably. After four, you know, can upset your stomach, you know, liver toxicity is possible. But if you stay within normal limits, seems to be fine.

• 1:22:23Joe Rogan?

  So...

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  At least for myself.

• 1:22:25Joe Rogan?

  For you?

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  Well, and also, in general, there haven't been recalls for, you know...

• 1:22:32Joe Rogan?

  And what do you take it for, if you're gonna take it?

• 1:22:34Speaker 02

  Pain.

• 1:22:38Joe Rogan?

  What kind of pain you getting in?

• 1:22:41Speaker 02

  Feet, you know, on my head, hernia repair a while back.

• 1:22:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I find it to be a very helpful drug with no side effects.

• 1:22:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, you should definitely be allowed to take it, especially you, you know. My concern is always.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  I should be allowed to take it.

• 1:23:02Joe Rogan?

  People that don't understand that there's a dose that if you go over that, it's gonna torture liver. And you could die.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's all about dose. I, I mean, microdosing psychedelics are completely different or in a lot, in quite a few ways than full dose. Or the effects are different.

• 1:23:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, have you, have you tried microdosing?

• 1:23:26Joe Rogan?

  I have in the past, yeah.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, a while back, um, I was having some, you know, some belly issues and I microdosed ayahuasca for about a month. So helpful, very helpful.

• 1:23:38Joe Rogan?

  What is every day like?

• 1:23:41Joe Rogan?

  Microdosing ayahuasca?

• 1:23:42Speaker 02

  Well, it is a microdose, so, you know, like a, it was teeny.

• 1:23:46Joe Rogan?

  So it just gave you just a little peak?

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  I wish.

• 1:23:50Joe Rogan?

  Nothing?

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  Not really. I took more in the beginning than kind of stretched it out. It's, it's kind of like coffee, like sparkly coffee if you take a little too much.

• 1:24:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah?

• 1:24:06Joe Rogan?

  What do you think would have happened if that 1970 sweeping act didn't take place? What do you think the world would, how, how much different? Have you ever contemplated it? How much different would the world be?

• 1:24:19Speaker 02

  Not really.

• 1:24:20Joe Rogan?

  Not at all? Good for you. Good for you. Why waste your time?

• 1:24:25Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I, I mean, you, you know, when I tried to get my DMT study off the ground, I mean, that was pretty weird. That was, you know, two years of just, you know, backbreaking labor.

• 1:24:36Joe Rogan?

  What year was that? Where it started?

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  Uh, I submitted, um, the paperwork in September 1988. I gave my first dose of DMT in November 1990. And I gave a lot of DMT then. I've been kind of crazy for the next five years.

• 1:24:57Joe Rogan?

  And you were doing IV drip, slow release, right?

• 1:25:00Speaker 02

  No, it was one big dose.

• 1:25:02Joe Rogan?

  One big dose IV?

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, bolus, IV bolus.

• 1:25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so our high dose was 0.4 milligrams per kilogram. And the highest dose is now being used for 0.3. Nobody has gone back up to 0.4 on a regular basis.

• 1:25:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, so people really went out there on 0.4. They were pretty scared. And they weren't sure they were coming back.

• 1:25:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they weren't sure they were coming back. Yeah, that is a fear. That's a fear of all psychedelic experiences. You don't think you can shut it off. What is this? And is this real? Is this around me all the time and I'm ignoring it?

• 1:25:42Speaker 02

  Is this real?

• 1:25:43Joe Rogan?

  Is this real?

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  And are you ignoring it? Um, yeah, boy, that's a terrible state to be in.

• 1:25:48Joe Rogan?

  Terrible? Excuse me?

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  That's why, yeah, that's why I think, you know, DMT ought to be carefully taken.

• 1:25:58Joe Rogan?

  I think everything should be carefully taken, especially if you've got something wrong with you already. Like if you're self-diagnosing with some really potent stuff, like, ah.

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  Right, right, then, yeah, yeah, things can really go south.

• 1:26:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:11Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, how, who's going to decide that, you know, based on what?

• 1:26:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, no one's deciding for you with alcohol. You could go fill your bar at home with more than enough to kill yourself with.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't get started on that, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:24Joe Rogan?

  Right? Like, most people can.

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:26Joe Rogan?

  Most people, if you have like a little bar in your house, like three or four bottles of Jack Daniels, a couple of this, a couple of that, you're dead. Drink all that stuff, you're dead.

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, have you ever gone through a drinking phase?

• 1:26:37Joe Rogan?

  Not a bad drinking phase. Uh, I don't drink at all anymore. Um, but I, I will still, if I feel like it, I'll have a glass of wine. Or I'll have a margarita. I like a nice Cabernet, sir.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:26:50Joe Rogan?

  Um, I just like a little red wine sometimes, but I've only had like two or three glasses of anything over the last like eight, nine months. And even, like, I didn't even finish the wine. It's like I've lost my taste for it.

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:04Joe Rogan?

  It just, the, the trade-off is not worth it. Like, I have a lot of fun people in my life and I have a lot of fun without alcohol. Like, I don't necessarily think it was providing me with the, the amount of...

• 1:27:20Joe Rogan?

  Good versus the amount of negative. The negative outweighed it, especially physically.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  Uh, right.

• 1:27:27Joe Rogan?

  It's just bad for you physically.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, thankfully I didn't drink in high school. And I kind of made up for a lost time in college. And I got really sick a few times. Yeah.

• 1:27:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's rough.

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  I just stopped drinking. Like to that point, anyway.

• 1:27:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's like people are having a good time, you know, and I get it. And if you're young and I get it, I get it, I did it too. But it's not good for you.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:27:52Joe Rogan?

  It's not good for your decision making too, because then you have the next day you're like, ugh. And if you're, if you're at that low state of being hungover, you're fucking for sure not putting out great energy.

• 1:28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you don't like, you don't want to get into that state. Or if you do, you want it channeled really, really carefully.

• 1:28:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, like I've never been part of a, like an ultra orthodox sect. But I think what happens in some of the ultra orthodox Jewish sects, there's a Lubavitcher sect in Brooklyn. And the fellow who led that was Schneerson, Menachem Schneerson. And he really enjoyed drinking. He got, you know, inspired. And, and he wanted others to become inspired. You know, it has to, you know, some become a conduit. I think it kind of differs like with Bukowski, you know, but like, you know, you can think of somebody who loves alcohol. First time he, first time he got drunk, it was a psychedelic experience, actually.

• 1:28:58Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, in his account, he says to himself, I think I've found something very, very important.

• 1:29:09Joe Rogan?

  It's kind of hilarious.

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was never the effect alcohol had on me. I didn't, and you get, you feel good for a while, a short period of time.

• 1:29:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. We obviously all differ biologically, but some people, it hits a switch that nothing else does.

• 1:29:27Speaker 02

  Um, there's.

• 1:29:28Joe Rogan?

  Some people love it.

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it's, it's discounted in the text, you shouldn't drink too much. It's very, very, very clear.

• 1:29:37Joe Rogan?

  But I'm not sure you shouldn't drink at all. Like you should drink if you want to drink. And, you know, does, you know, everybody, people get real rigid. You know, especially if you have someone around you that has a problem with alcohol, or you have had a problem with alcohol.

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, there's a huge homeless population in Albuquerque.

• 1:29:59Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:59Speaker 02

  Alcohol plays somewhat of a role.

• 1:30:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  I played a lot more in the Navajo Reservation when I lived in Gallup.

• 1:30:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think people are just using abused drugs.

• 1:30:11Joe Rogan?

  Right, there's also those things, they sound like there's not a lot of opportunity in the places you're describing, right?

• 1:30:17Speaker 02

  Uh, right, so if you don't, you just want to not feel anything.

• 1:30:21Joe Rogan?

  You're outside a reservation.

• 1:30:22Speaker 02

  Or on one.

• 1:30:23Joe Rogan?

  Or on a reservation, yeah.

• 1:30:28Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I'm in the middle of the audiobook Empire of the Summer Moon for the second time. It's all about the Comanches and the war between the settlers and the Comanches here.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 1:30:40Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy.

• 1:30:41Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:42Joe Rogan?

  And I'm in the middle of this, and I'm thinking like,

• 1:30:50Joe Rogan?

  have people always been this horrible? And we're just sort of catching up to it now?

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  Well, you know, that's taken into account in Cain and Abel, the Cain and Abel story.

• 1:31:03Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  The first two children, one murders the other. So it started way back.

• 1:31:10Joe Rogan?

  It starts way back with the bang. And you just go, God, have people always been this awful?

• 1:31:16Speaker 02

  From the beginning. From, well, you know, there's a line in the text that he's gonna, that, you know, God is gonna destroy mankind. No, no, what does he, what happens here? I think he decides people will only live 120 years at the most, because their inclination is bad from the get-go. And 120 years is enough time to repent and become a better person.

• 1:31:40Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:31:41Speaker 02

  So you have 120 years to, you know, deal with what you were born with.

• 1:31:47Joe Rogan?

  But this book, this Empire of the Summer Moon, it just makes me think, when you think about what life was like for the people that lived here before the European settlers arrived, and how quickly everything went away, historically, in terms of like the timeline, it was only a few hundred years, and it was just completely gone.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, a water garden of Eden, lost.

• 1:32:15Joe Rogan?

  There was also, there was a lot of war. That's the thing that everybody likes to leave out. Like, I'm fascinated with Native American culture. I'm fascinated with this Comanche civilization that lived here, because this book, Empire of the Summer Moon, is just, it's so interesting. They were so fierce, and they lived right here.

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, there's twenty-nine pueblos in New Mexico, and, you know, the pueblo are peaceful folk. They're agricultural.

• 1:32:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  You know, that's their, you know, that's been their heritage.

• 1:32:48Joe Rogan?

  The Comanche were not. And they, one of the things this book talks about is how a lot of the Apaches were not on horseback, and they were, and that they were literally wiping out bands of Apache, and forcing them to go to Mexico. It's like, this is always been, there's always been, once they've had horses, which is really like after the Spaniards got here.

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:33:14Joe Rogan?

  Then, they, once the Comanches figured out horses, they got really good at it. And they were like an impossible barrier to get through this part of the country.

• 1:33:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was mostly Navajo around where I lived in Gallup, and they were nomads. They raised sheep.

• 1:33:32Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  Spun.

• 1:33:34Joe Rogan?

  Sure. And then in the eastern side, a lot more agriculture, right?

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, with all the, all the space in the southeast.

• 1:33:41Joe Rogan?

  The amount of time that it took for everything to get pushed, where if you're a Native American, and you, you're, you know, it's twenty twenty-five for you, and you're living on a reservation, you're like, whoa, what happened? You start going into the history of it, like, how many people died? Like, what happened?

• 1:33:59Speaker 02

  Is, is there Comanche presence in, in Texas?

• 1:34:03Joe Rogan?

  A lot of signs, I'll tell you that. A lot of the signs are like Quanah Parker Lane. He was like, he was the last Comanche chief.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, they always name things after what, what used to be there.

• 1:34:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is all that area. There's a lot of Comanche were in this area, but it went all the way down to Oklahoma. It was, uh, just a, a barrier that you couldn't get through.

• 1:34:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah, it was fun living in Gallup. There's mostly Navajo.

• 1:34:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, very low-key.

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  They've come to terms with being, you know, defeated.

• 1:34:41Joe Rogan?

  Ugh.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  Part of, you know.

• 1:34:43Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy though, isn't it?

• 1:34:45Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:34:45Joe Rogan?

  I mean, it like had that, all those things had to take place in order to get New York City. Like, yeah, so you have to decide, what do you like more? New York City, or you want to go back in time and say, don't sell this?

• 1:34:57Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:34:58Joe Rogan?

  You know, what do you like more? Do you like pizza? Do you like, do you go to a nice?

• 1:35:03Speaker 02

  I, I like pizza.

• 1:35:04Joe Rogan?

  I do too. Like to be able to go to a nice nightclub, have a drink, go to a nice steak dinner in New York City. Or give it all back, give it all back. Go back in time, just say, hey, guys, you're getting robbed. Don't sell this for whatever it was.

• 1:35:19Speaker 02

  You can't halt progress.

• 1:35:21Joe Rogan?

  How much did they buy New York for?

• 1:35:22Speaker 02

  Twenty seven dollars.

• 1:35:24Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:35:24Speaker 02

  In jewelry, fake jewelry even.

• 1:35:26Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:27Joe Rogan?

  Wow, what a deal.

• 1:35:28Speaker 02

  Or forty five dollars.

• 1:35:29Joe Rogan?

  What a great, what a great origin story for a villainous country.

• 1:35:35Joe Rogan?

  That their number one city was made through a swindle deal.

• 1:35:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:39Joe Rogan?

  Where it was fake jewelry.

• 1:35:42Speaker 02

  Well, that's where I went to medical school, was the Bronx. Well, you're from New Jersey.

• 1:35:46Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:35:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:47Joe Rogan?

  That's where I was born, yeah.

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I trained in the Bronx.

• 1:35:50Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:33Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:11Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:27Speaker 02

  I didn't get to Jersey much.

• 1:37:29Joe Rogan?

  New Jersey is a crazy place because everybody thinks of it as just being city because like it's right near the city. Like Hackensack and Hoboken and stuff like that, but it's like mostly rural.

• 1:37:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:40Joe Rogan?

  Mostly it's got bears all over the place in it.

• 1:37:43Speaker 02

  There's some really nice coastal parks.

• 1:37:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. The shore is awesome. You know, small doses.

• 1:37:50Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 1:37:51Joe Rogan?

  Nice to go down there.

• 1:37:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the Bronx was great training.

• 1:37:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's a yeshiva. It's like the modern Orthodox university in the country.

• 1:38:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's where it is?

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's the medical school of yeshiva.

• 1:38:09Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:38:10Speaker 02

  It's called Einstein. And it's in the Bronx. It was great training. We could do anything. We could do everything because they were, you know, it was pretty poorly staffed in some ways in the seventies. Yeah. So we had a lot of duties.

• 1:38:25Joe Rogan?

  When did you first even have the idea to create a study of people doing IV DMT? Like, when did you even?

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  That's a long story.

• 1:38:37Joe Rogan?

  It seems like a good one, though. It seems like a good one because how do you get to the point where you're asking the government to let you do this? And then you get them actually to say yes?

• 1:38:49Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:38:49Joe Rogan?

  That's.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  It was the war on drugs that funded our study. Well, it all kind of came to a head with Terrence McKenna. We were up in his loft one afternoon. And instead of saying DMT was a really great drug and asked for money, we said DMT was a really dangerous drug and asked for money.

• 1:39:14Joe Rogan?

  Ah, I think you've told me this before.

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:19Joe Rogan?

  But it's a good story.

• 1:39:20Speaker 02

  It's like, yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:21Joe Rogan?

  You just wanna study it.

• 1:39:22Speaker 02

  We just wanna study it.

• 1:39:25Speaker 02

  It's not good or bad.

• 1:39:29Joe Rogan?

  It's clever, cuz it's not, you're not lying.

• 1:39:31Speaker 02

  Uh, no, no. I knew what I was talking about, too.

• 1:39:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  Like, I had done neuroendocrinology research with melatonin, circadian rhythm research. Yeah, I was a bona fide investigator.

• 1:39:46Speaker 02

  I just asked simple questions. Could we give it? What happens when you give it?

• 1:39:53Speaker 02

  DMT is really strange. The role it's played in my life. I've been complaining for years that, um, well, not complaining for years, but, uh,

• 1:40:05Speaker 02

  I don't know, I'm more skeptical of the psychedelic experience than I was before. I don't think it's a panacea. Well, I think it is a panacea, that's the problem.

• 1:40:16Joe Rogan?

  Um, I think there's an issue with spiritual narcissism. That's a thing that sort of grips people when they start doing it a lot, and then their identity is wrapped up in doing it a lot.

• 1:40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, like.

• 1:40:31Joe Rogan?

  There's a little bit of that that happens with folks.

• 1:40:34Speaker 02

  With DMT in particular.

• 1:40:36Joe Rogan?

  Is it?

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  Or ayahuasca.

• 1:40:39Speaker 02

  Like, but once a year, I get an email saying something in the subject line, "You're booking my son."

• 1:40:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they say that they, you know, just smoked way too much DMT. They were in the hospital or in prison.

• 1:40:54Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:40:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, they just, well, it became messianic, like you were, like you said. Like you believe you know more than anyone, and if they just listened.

• 1:41:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:06Speaker 02

  False Messiah. Well, there's some interesting stories of false messias.

• 1:41:11Speaker 02

  You know, at least within Judaism, Messiah has not come yet. As opposed to Christianity, where Jesus was Messiah.

• 1:41:22Joe Rogan?

  So what is Judaism's version of what happened with Jesus? He wasn't the Messiah, so he died, he didn't get resurrected?

• 1:41:31Speaker 02

  Well, you know, he may have been resurrected, but resurrection occurs in the Hebrew Bible, so that's not unique.

• 1:41:39Joe Rogan?

  Right, but what is their take on it?

• 1:41:44Speaker 02

  Well, end of story, he's killed.

• 1:41:48Joe Rogan?

  And that's it? He don't come back?

• 1:41:50Speaker 02

  No, not really, not within the Hebrew Bible. That's part of the New Testament, the Christian Bible. Oh, that's one thing I wanted to bring up, is Old Testament is a term that's a little disparaging in a way.

• 1:42:04Joe Rogan?

  Is it?

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  It's been replaced by Hebrew Bible.

• 1:42:07Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:08Joe Rogan?

  When was that?

• 1:42:10Speaker 02

  It's been building.

• 1:42:11Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so is this like a pronouns thing? It prefers this? It wants to be identified as a Hebrew Bible?

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  They prefer it.

• 1:42:20Joe Rogan?

  They? I was saying it.

• 1:42:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it could be either.

• 1:42:26Joe Rogan?

  In interest of simplicity.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I was thinking of, well, you know how people put in parenthetical phrases, you know, he/him? Yeah, I was thinking of doing that for myself once, it and its.

• 1:42:44Joe Rogan?

  It and its?

• 1:42:45Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. It would be gender neutral.

• 1:42:49Joe Rogan?

  Sounds good.

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's one of the...

• 1:42:53Joe Rogan?

  Or just not ever. Come on.

• 1:42:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, you know, I was thinking about, you know, does God have genitals? And, you know, probably not.

• 1:43:09Joe Rogan?

  Doesn't seem like it's the likely way we were made.

• 1:43:15Joe Rogan?

  But it's probably some sort of a interdimensional psychedelic equivalent of intercourse that

• 1:43:26Speaker 02

  Well, it

• 1:43:27Joe Rogan?

  Higher beings have some interaction with each other.

• 1:43:31Speaker 02

  I think it was the optimal form.

• 1:43:34Joe Rogan?

  The optimal form?

• 1:43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, to contain a certain consciousness and do particular things.

• 1:43:40Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:43:41Speaker 02

  It's an ideal form, you know, it was ideal. So that's, you know, why it took a particular, unique shape.

• 1:43:53Speaker 02

  You know, form, fall, loss, function, things like that.

• 1:43:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:57Joe Rogan?

  But I got confused there. What are you referring to?

• 1:44:00Speaker 02

  Oh, well, you know, the specific, well, I think you were, I was referring to man being made in God's image.

• 1:44:09Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, with genitals.

• 1:44:11Joe Rogan?

  Oh, right.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I think it, you know,

• 1:44:18Speaker 02

  in the animal kingdom, things evolved to do certain things. They have form and function, which, you know, combined determine their range of behaviors. So I think in humans, it's sort of was the optimal form as well. Same way, perhaps.

• 1:44:36Joe Rogan?

  What do you think happened when human beings had this doubling of the brain size over a period of two million years? What do you think that was?

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  Is that true?

• 1:44:49Joe Rogan?

  Supposedly.

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so. I think it was, yeah.

• 1:44:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:52Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:44:53Joe Rogan?

  Sounds like a crazy little expansion.

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, I mean, you could look at it, you know, evolutionarily, you know, biologically, you know, theologically, you can look at it too as, you know, finally being endowed with, you know, a human spirit.

• 1:45:10Speaker 02

  You know, there's multiple spirits, you know, and even in the Hebrew Bible, there's multiple spirits, there's.

• 1:45:17Joe Rogan?

  So as the brain expands in size, you develop a human spirit?

• 1:45:21Speaker 02

  I think so, yeah, that human spirit allows for divine communication, at least that's how the theory goes. It's the, you know, the breathing in of the soul to man by God, and it's in man's creation.

• 1:45:37Joe Rogan?

  Right, so ultimately, we're gonna get to be a gray, we're gonna have a big, giant head, and we're not gonna need to talk, because we're gonna do it telepathically.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, you know, telepathically, you think people being able to read the mind is a good thing, it will be a good thing, once that happens, or if it can happen?

• 1:46:02Joe Rogan?

  I think it will be a thing, and like all things, it will have good aspects to it and bad aspects to it. I think reading people's minds will be very enlightening, you're gonna learn a lot more about how people actually think, versus what they project, you're gonna, you're gonna be able to see people's motivations, you're gonna be able to see lies, and we might even have a universal visual language that they develop, we might all be able to adopt it really quickly, and kids probably will jump right on board, and they'll be literate in it before we are.

• 1:46:33Speaker 02

  What about psychological ambivalence, you know, loving someone one moment, hating them another?

• 1:46:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's.

• 1:46:42Speaker 02

  You know, what happens if you, you know, tune in to one, at one moment, you're convinced that's, that's, you know, solely the case? If you're ambivalent, ambivalence is a real thing, and you're, you know, you have an unconscious too, where things are kind of stored away psychologically.

• 1:47:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm not saying it's good.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  It, it might be hard.

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Well, I, I don't know, if, if there is some way where we link up, and we can communicate completely telepathically.

• 1:47:14Joe Rogan?

  It could be really weird.

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:16Joe Rogan?

  But it will be a thing. That's my point. It's like it's it's we're gonna have to navigate it like we navigated making books, like we navigated everything else. Like if we wanna stay alive, we've got to recognize that there's some shit going down. There's some shit going down right now and.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  Right. Well, there's free will, isn't there? You know, forever. You still all these decisions that you have to make. Well, I mean, in this, uh.

• 1:47:41Joe Rogan?

  Or is there free will? The determinism people don't think there is.

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  Well, it feels as if there's free will.

• 1:47:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I feel like we respect free will, so it's probably a real thing. We expect, we we we respect a person who's like been a drunk their whole life, who puts down the bottle and starts running around the block. We respect that, cuz it's a real thing.

• 1:48:00Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:00Joe Rogan?

  Free will is, there's part of free will. It's like, there's something there.

• 1:48:06Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:06Joe Rogan?

  There's something there. You make choices. You don't know why you make choices, but you make choices. That's the thing. There's a lot of factors in why you make choices, and it's not 100% determinism and it's not 100% free will. It's kind of, there's a soup.

• 1:48:21Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:21Joe Rogan?

  It's a very.

• 1:48:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, to the extent.

• 1:48:26Joe Rogan?

  Moveable soup.

• 1:48:26Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, to the extent that you can exert free will, you know, you have to kind of do the best you can.

• 1:48:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you gotta do your best you can.

• 1:48:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And even if we're uploaded into some the cloud, let's say, I mean, how's that time gonna be spent?

• 1:48:41Joe Rogan?

  Good question. What is, I mean, are we even capable of imagining what we're talking about? Are we so crude in our understanding of what's to come in the next five, 10, whatever years, that we're just, we're just guessing? We're silly? We're like writing a bad science fiction movie from the 1980s about the year 2000?

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:03Joe Rogan?

  You remember those, like Space 1999?

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  Well, you know, it's, it's the one God and the golden rule. I think that's what we'll be, you know, left with ethically, you know, what the basis of our decision making will be.

• 1:49:17Joe Rogan?

  I've always wondered if we're in a race to avoid catastrophe. And that's one of the reasons why we're so like hyper focused on accelerating with technology. Is that we kind of always recognize that this species is in a race to avoid natural catastrophe. Like, there's just so much potential for natural catastrophe, whether it's supervolcanoes, asteroid impacts, so many different things have like almost wiped us out to nothing. That it's like, might be a part of the reason why there's this like mad rush to make better and better and better technology. It's almost like a game, like can you get to the final boss?

• 1:49:57Joe Rogan?

  Can your species survive and figure out a way to stop the rock from space?

• 1:50:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, the footsteps of the Messiah, that's what that's called. I mean, you want to be at the round, you want to be around at the time of the Messiah, but not really. Because things have to get so bad. That's one model of, you know, the end of times.

• 1:50:19Joe Rogan?

  There's also a lot of people that don't recognize that being a human being on Earth is being a passenger in an organic spaceship going through the universe. Like, there are real celestial events that they have to keep their eyes on. Which, you know, you haven't experienced in your lives, you're like, eh. But no, there's giant rocks that killed the dinosaurs, and they're still floating around, same sized rocks.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:50:52Joe Rogan?

  And they can't stop them, they don't know how to stop them yet. Like, don't listen to any of these fucking people, "Oh, if we saw it, we would do this and do that and sleep tight at night." No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, if there was some gigantic state sized chunk of metal flying through the galaxy, we would have a real problem.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  Uh huh, yeah, it might wipe out all of humanity.

• 1:51:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it might wipe out all of humanity.

• 1:51:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:19Joe Rogan?

  And it probably came really close to doing that a few times in history. That's what I think.

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:24Joe Rogan?

  It's the only thing that makes sense. If we know that we were hit all the time, we all accept the fact that the Yucatan impact, that's what killed the dinosaurs, and there's been a bunch of them throughout history, we find craters everywhere. Everyone knows that we've been hit multiple times, the Tanguska thing in Russia.

• 1:51:44Joe Rogan?

  Where flattened this enormous patch of forest that's still flattened.

• 1:51:48Speaker 02

  Have you been watching, uh, season two of Omah, uh, Omah Graham Hancock's, uh, Ancient Apocalypse?

• 1:51:56Joe Rogan?

  I didn't watch season two yet. No, I watched season one, though.

• 1:52:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:01Joe Rogan?

  What's season two about?

• 1:52:02Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 1:52:03Joe Rogan?

  It's, uh, it's like the Americas, right?

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 1:52:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, the Americas are crazy.

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like Graham.

• 1:52:10Joe Rogan?

  Ah, he's the best.

• 1:52:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's hardworking.

• 1:52:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he loves what he does, man. He really, really does. And the fact that he's finally been over all these attacks, he's finally been vindicated and people are starting to accept more and more things are probably a lot older than, than we wanna believe. And especially after Go Beckley Tappy, that kinda like, that popped the cork on everything. And everyone's like, okay, well, this has definitely been buried for eleven thousand years. So what, this is kinda crazy. We didn't know they could do that back then.

• 1:52:45Speaker 02

  Well, before coming out here, I asked ChatGPT, you know, how old are some of the stories written down in the, in the texts in the Hebrew Bible? And at least according to ChatGPT, it's ten thousand years ago. You know, so.

• 1:52:58Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  You know, something may have happened at that time that.

• 1:53:03Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a very interesting finding. Oh, you know, Sodom and Gomorrah, that's a great story. Um, I'm working on this translation of the Hebrew Bible. I've got a Substack now. I've been putting out things every week, a chapter a week.

• 1:53:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:20Speaker 02

  On, on my translation of the Bible, it's like a thousand pages right now of commentary about the language and, uh, you know, the grammar, you know, the meaning, that was called the plain meaning of the text. Like, there was a Noah with three sons and, um, went on to ark. Yeah, so.

• 1:53:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's like my big project, but I like to do a smaller one about Asodom and Gomorrah and the figure of Lot, I think. That's a really incredible story.

• 1:53:48Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:53:49Speaker 02

  I've spent about, uh, maybe two to three weeks looking at that, you know, like, you know, Lot, his virgin daughters, the men circling his house, uh, they're asking to know him. He ends up, you know, in a cave with his two virgin daughters. They get him drunk and he sleeps with them, uh, or, you know, they lie with him anyway. Yeah, and out come two kids at a certain point and they become very important. You know, later on, they're the beginning of the Messianic line. You know, so it's a very intricate, you know, tale with, uh, a very, I think you can make some cool conversations between some of the main personages in the,

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  uh, in, you know, the narrative. You know, there was a book called The Red Tent.

• 1:54:35Joe Rogan?

  Can I ask you about the, the Lot? Like, how, how old was that story?

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  Well, that must be, well, it's an explanation of Asodom and Gomorrah, which is the, you know, uh, around the Dead Sea. There was a conflagration of some sort there. Um, have any of your guests spoken about Asodom, you know, you know, what actually happened around the Dead Sea? It, it was quite catastrophic.

• 1:55:01Joe Rogan?

  Uh, well, tell us, tell us.

• 1:55:03Speaker 02

  Well, the story of Lot, yeah, I mean, there was fire and sulfur pouring down on Asodom and Gomorrah. Yeah, it was the end of the plain. Yeah, so that's, uh, the southern part of, you know, of, you know, the Dead Sea. You know, it, it is a Dead Sea because of its high salt concentrations. It was kind of, you know, closed off from the coast. Uh, yeah, so it's at least a description of, you know, what took place.

• 1:55:33Joe Rogan?

  What do you think it's describing?

• 1:55:36Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I mean, you know, my perspective is

• 1:55:40Joe Rogan?

  A volcano?

• 1:55:41Speaker 02

  It actually happened. Yeah, people think a volcano. Some kind of volcanic activity.

• 1:55:46Joe Rogan?

  We're totally saying, it sounds like a volcano, right? And we know that there's been a bunch of those that have almost wiped people out entirely at certain points. That Toba volcano? You know, that one?

• 1:55:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:56:00Joe Rogan?

  We got down to, um, I think the, we've looked this up before, but I wanna say they think we might have gotten down to just a few thousand people.

• 1:56:11Speaker 02

  On the whole planet?

• 1:56:13Joe Rogan?

  Like seventy thousand years ago. Seventy thousand years ago, there was a massive supervolcano uh, that went off. And it, you know, plunged the earth probably into nuclear winter. And they think that our genetic line entirely of the human race on earth came from this few thousand survivors.

• 1:56:32Speaker 02

  Joe, can we take a

• 1:56:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes. You gotta pee?

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:34Joe Rogan?

  Yes. We'll be right back, folks.

• 1:56:36Speaker 02

  Seriously. We're back. Yeah, so we were talking about the alternative.

• 1:56:41Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Explain what you mean by that. Like, that these things are happening in an alternative dimension.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, I think they're happening in an alternative dimension. Like when you smoke DMT, you return to the same place each time. So there seems to be some some reality, some DMT world, uh, that people enter into. And it's, one of my volunteers, uh, one of the subjects in the DMT research, he got a big dose one day, and then a few months later, he got another big dose. And he said that, it was very interesting, he said, "Things have just, you know, continued apace" since his first exposure, his first, you know, entrance into that state. And things had, had, you know, gone on, uh, in the meantime.

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  And he, um, re-entered, uh, that world. So in that way, there's a, you know, in that same manner, the world of the Hebrew Bible, early on, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noah, the Tower of Babel, all that took place. At some, at some different level.

• 1:57:53Speaker 02

  Of reality which gradually made its way into ours. And once it made its way into ours, there's the archaeological evidence. You have the first temple, second temple, and so on. So there is a transition between, you know, our world and that world kind of merged. But in the, in the beginning, it was an alternative dimension. The same God, I think, but, but, you know, different dimensions.

• 1:58:23Joe Rogan?

  Really? So, did, is this your own personal conclusion?

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, when I was on the show last time, you're asking if I believe those things took place. And my answer then was I, you know, I take it as if it were true.

• 1:58:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:58:44Speaker 02

  And then I started to think, you know, how I would do that. You know, like, in what world would that be true? It'd be a different world.

• 1:58:52Joe Rogan?

  Right. I feel like I've always believed that they were trying to record something. I just didn't always trust that human beings were completely honest with their recollection of events. So that there's something that they were trying to write down. But was it really coming from God? Was it, are these accurate events? What, what exactly happened with Noah and the ark? What, what really happened?

• 1:59:23Speaker 02

  Well, you know, three stories. You know, three, you know, three levels.

• 1:59:29Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  You know, two of each, then seven of, you know, one, one, one pair or, you know, seven pairs of birds, well, of every living thing.

• 1:59:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but like, how's he feeding them? Animals eat other animals. The whole thing's nuts. You would need a lot more rabbits. You'd need so many animals to keep just the lions alive.

• 1:59:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:59:50Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't make any sense. How's he getting them all from all over the world and do his stupid boat?

• 1:59:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:55Joe Rogan?

  There's so many things that are wrong.

• 1:59:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:57Joe Rogan?

  But, but the story of him being told that some shit is about to go down, and you probably should, you know, find some way to restart your version of civilization somewhere is probably... Multiple ver- like the flood myth that we, you know, whatever you want to call it, the, the, the, the stories of the flood. That you get from Epic of Gilgamesh, that you get from Noah. There's not, there's not just those. There's many, many different cultures all throughout history have a flood story, right? So it's probably likely that some crazy shit went down.

• 2:00:39Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, there may have been, you know, there most likely was a, a flood.

• 2:00:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, so what do you learn from it? You know, like, how do you do better or on what, on, on what basis do you rebuild? You know, so I think there's new different models. You know, the, I think the biblical one is interesting because, because, um, you know, it's a, it's, um, you know, lineage, you know, from Adam to Noah.

• 2:01:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:01:14Speaker 02

  To Abraham, you know, Isaac and Jacob and the tribes and now.

• 2:01:23Joe Rogan?

  So when you talk about things happening in an alternative dimension, like, is that what you think like the birth of mankind is as well? Like Adam and Eve?

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  Well, I mean.

• 2:01:35Joe Rogan?

  Pull this microphone up.

• 2:01:37Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm sorry.

• 2:01:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, it's okay. It just has an impact and.

• 2:01:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, well, you know, the creation story, um, you know, man was created on sixth day.

• 2:01:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:01:48Speaker 02

  Along with mammals.

• 2:01:51Speaker 02

  It's a cool story. It's, you know, stages, you know, like, uh, you know, people are say, well, you know, seven days, that's unlikely. Like the, you know, that your creation took place seven times 24, I don't know, 148.

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  Something like 148 hours, 168 hours, the whole world was, you know, was created. But it's broken into stages, you know, seven stages. And, you know, which is one of the translations of the word that is usually translated day. It could also mean stage. It's a word yom. It can mean either a day, a period of time, a stage.

• 2:02:35Speaker 02

  So that's, you know, that's the answer that makes sense to me about, you know, the seven day story of creation. Yeah, so, you know, man was created on the sixth day and then was placed in the Garden of Eden. And, you know, those events took place. You know, the stories themselves are just, you know, they're written down. And so people have been studying them for thousands of years.

• 2:03:05Joe Rogan?

  Who do you think Lilith was?

• 2:03:07Speaker 02

  No mention of Lilith in the Bible.

• 2:03:10Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:11Joe Rogan?

  Where's the story of Lilith emerge?

• 2:03:13Speaker 02

  Well, it comes from what's called midrash.

• 2:03:15Joe Rogan?

  What's that?

• 2:03:16Speaker 02

  Comes from a root, d-r-sha, darash. It means to, I don't know, explicate, to expand upon, to investigate. You know, so what happened after Adam and Eve sinned? You know, did they have sex again? And they do have Cain and Abel.

• 2:03:40Speaker 02

  And the ensuing stories. And then there's a third son, Sheik, who is the inheritor of Adam's good, of his traits, his good traits and bad traits. He's like God as well. So there's a distinct lineage that is spelled out. You know, Lilith was, was a demon that...

• 2:04:08Speaker 02

  She slept with Adam after the sin of eating from the fruit of knowledge of good and evil. You know, so there's a story that that built up around, you know, the biblical story that they were separated, Adam and Eve were, you know, were separated for a long period. And, you know, so who was Adam sleeping with? Well, it was expanded in the Midrash that there was a demoness named Lilith who slept with Adam for, I mean, I don't know, a couple hundred years, and then Adam and Eve reconciled.

• 2:04:46Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:04:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Lilith is, you know, is, you know, she doesn't appear in the text of the Hebrew Bible as such, you know, so nobody, you know, there's a mythology that's grown around Lilith as well. Well, isn't there some festival, some, some music festival called the Lilith Festival?

• 2:05:13Joe Rogan?

  Lilith Fair.

• 2:05:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:16Speaker 02

  That's, that's named after, you know, the spirit that, or the, you know, demoness who's.

• 2:05:21Joe Rogan?

  You sure it wasn't like a lady named Lilith that she came up with?

• 2:05:24Speaker 02

  Are we sure? It was her neighbor, Lilith Swith, Smith.

• 2:05:31Joe Rogan?

  So what was the reason why the Book of Enoch, like, so it was not included in all the versions of the, the Bible by a decision of like, how many people? It was like a few rabbis, right?

• 2:05:48Speaker 02

  Well, the canon you're talking about, there's 22 books in the Hebrew Bible.

• 2:05:53Joe Rogan?

  Right. And there, there's certain versions of it that they found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, like the Book of Isaiah, that's identical verbatim, which is really amazing, right?

• 2:06:01Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, yeah, and there's Aramaic translations. Aramaic was the spoken language back, back then, back there.

• 2:06:08Joe Rogan?

  But the Book of Enoch was a part of all that, the, the stuff they found in Qumran too, right?

• 2:06:14Speaker 02

  Um, this, there, I'm, I'm just not, well, I, I tried learning about the Book of Enoch.

• 2:06:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:24Speaker 02

  There's only an Ethiopian version, right?

• 2:06:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:06:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, have you looked into the Book of Enoch?

• 2:06:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I told you I've been listening to it on audio. But Ethiopia is a fascinating place.

• 2:06:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:35Joe Rogan?

  Right? Because like, that's the place where Graham Hancock started getting interested in the possibility that they have the Ark of the Covenant.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  Right, they're supposed to be a tribe in Ethiopia.

• 2:06:45Joe Rogan?

  And they all get cataracts, and the people that are protecting it, they only live like a certain amount of time and then they die.

• 2:06:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:52Joe Rogan?

  If that's true, if any of that's true, if any of that's true, that if somehow or another there's people on earth today that have an Ark of the Covenant.

• 2:07:03Speaker 02

  Um.

• 2:07:04Joe Rogan?

  How could you keep that a secret? That's the craziest thing to be even allowed to keep a secret.

• 2:07:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's one of those things you can't even imagine.

• 2:07:13Joe Rogan?

  I mean, you know, can you imagine if they open up a door and like, there it is? Oh, like, like from Raiders of the Lost Ark, melts your face off?

• 2:07:21Speaker 02

  Um, well, it would contain the Ten Commandments.

• 2:07:24Joe Rogan?

  Yo.

• 2:07:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, the original Ten, well, yeah, the original Ten Commandments.

• 2:07:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, what do you think these guys are guarding in Ethiopia where they're getting cataracts? Because when Graham describes it, you're like, if you're telling me the truth, and I think you are, because you've never lied to me yet, if you're telling me the truth, these people that are guarding this place that supposedly has the Ark of the Covenant are all getting like radiation sickness?

• 2:07:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, well, yeah, the Ark is hidden. I mean, that's what is said in the Hebrew Bible, is that it's hidden. So, we just don't know what happened, at least according to the Hebrew Bible. It still has been, it hasn't been discovered yet. So it might be in Ethiopia, God only knows.

• 2:08:11Joe Rogan?

  It's just the craziest story ever. Because if it is true, if this one church has the Ark of the Covenant, like, hey, guys, let us get a look at it.

• 2:08:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I hope they got it right.

• 2:08:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, they should definitely make sure someone doesn't steal it. Yeah.

• 2:08:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, the Ten Commandments, you know, that's appearing in, in, in, I'm at public schools now.

• 2:08:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I had a guy, James Talarico, on to talk about that, actually, who's a very, a staunch Christian, and thinks it's a terrible idea to have the Ten Commandments in classrooms. He's, you're indoctrinating children, he goes, it's like a way to drive them away from Christianity. You're forcing it on them. He's like, we, we shouldn't do it that way, and certainly not do it in a way where you're only gonna have the Ten Commandments, and you're not gonna have anything about Buddhism, and you're not gonna have anything about Islam, you're not gonna have anything about Baptist, or what, you know, fill in the blank, Mormons, fill in the blank, you know, Scientologists, you'd have to have everything. You have to just keep going forever and ever and ever.

• 2:09:19Speaker 02

  And then splinter groups.

• 2:09:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes. So, he's got a good idea, I mean, I think he's right, I think they should stop doing that. If you wanna teach it in a classroom that someone applies for, that's great, but like, putting it on the wall of every class seems kind of insane. Apparently, he was saying that it's just a couple of different gentlemen in Texas that are like, super wealthy, and super Christian, and they want this to be like a theocracy.

• 2:09:50Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:09:51Joe Rogan?

  Unfortunately. Where have we heard that before?

• 2:09:53Speaker 02

  Uh, in the Middle Ages.

• 2:09:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, baby. Well, I just think that's what happens when people get a shit ton of money and a shit ton of power, and they start getting older, they need a sport, they need to take up a, take up a game that fascinates them, instead of trying to like, global world dominate.

• 2:10:10Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's just...

• 2:10:15Joe Rogan?

  People get to positions of extreme wealth and power, and they just wanna manipulate things and make more money. And they wanna do it forever and ever and ever, and they can't. You only live to be a hundred and twenty. If everything goes perfect, maybe today you might be able to, if you can make it to like, if you make it to ninety today, I bet you could live a lot longer.

• 2:10:37Speaker 02

  If you live to ninety?

• 2:10:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like if you can.

• 2:10:41Speaker 02

  I've, I've lived way older than, than my father and, yes, so I think, yeah, I think I'll live a while longer. I, I married a young woman.

• 2:10:52Joe Rogan?

  That helps.

• 2:10:52Speaker 02

  I need to stay, you know, fit.

• 2:10:55Joe Rogan?

  You know, that actually does help.

• 2:10:56Speaker 02

  Live a longer time, yeah.

• 2:10:58Joe Rogan?

  There's been studies that show that men that date younger women, they have more active lives, they feel healthier.

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  I'm more active.

• 2:11:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it could be those are the kind of women that are interested in dating that kind of guy.

• 2:11:12Speaker 02

  I just don't know, is it very, yeah, I, I, I don't know how it works, um.

• 2:11:19Joe Rogan?

  And the kind of guys that are more active and healthy would also be the kind of guys that would want to date younger women. So as a bio, bio sample group, right?

• 2:11:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, one of my analysts, uh, said it was a mystery. She had no idea and she'd been seeing patients for like fifty years. She, and she'd said, no, I have no idea, it's a mystery.

• 2:11:40Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:11:41Speaker 02

  And why people get together.

• 2:11:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I think whatever makes you happy.

• 2:11:50Speaker 02

  Well, that's it, you know, that's, you know, that's the book of Ecclesiastes. It's about, you know, it's emptiness, emptiness, it's all emptiness.

• 2:12:02Speaker 02

  You know, but at the end, you should make your wife happy and eat and drink and be merry while you're alive. What do you think of that?

• 2:12:12Joe Rogan?

  It's good advice, solid advice. If I was living two thousand years ago, I'd probably say the same thing.

• 2:12:17Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 2:12:19Joe Rogan?

  There's no medicine, you have no antibiotics, there's no orthopedic surgeons that are gonna put your knee back together again. Yeah, I'd say that too.

• 2:12:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it is, it is bad when you have one doctor for every organ system.

• 2:12:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. They didn't know anything. It's nuts. I mean, how many people died of infections back then? Where, just that alone, that's extended life, like, like, just antibiotics alone, it's extended lifespan so much, because so many people that would have probably died got, got healthy again. So many people, and those people can maybe figure out some new way to bridge this gap and stop these viruses and stop this, stop that, and then we just keep getting better at it until we eventually get to the point where we're living as long as Noah.

• 2:13:13Speaker 02

  Six hundred years for Noah.

• 2:13:15Joe Rogan?

  And that's probably when God gets fed up. He's like, enough.

• 2:13:18Speaker 02

  Well.

• 2:13:19Joe Rogan?

  You fucking animals. Maybe that's like, maybe we're gonna repeat that process. Maybe we're gonna like, figure out some awesome new peptides, keep you alive for five hundred years, and everyone's gonna be a dick to everybody else.

• 2:13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:31Joe Rogan?

  And then eventually God will just have to drown us again.

• 2:13:33Speaker 02

  Um, in, uh, I'm in college, we had to read a book about, uh, the funeral home industry in Southern California.

• 2:13:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah?

• 2:13:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I read, uh, this little novel by Aldous Huxley, Many a Summer Dies a Swan. It's about these people who live forever by eating the intestinal microbiome of carp.

• 2:13:55Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:13:56Speaker 02

  And they become like carp, you know, in a lot of ways. And I tried to, you know, get into one of these funeral homes, like, you know, I asked to be, I asked to interview them to, you see, you know, what people, you know, you did after death. Uh, and, you know, never heard back. One of those, you know, crazy college stories. Uh, about, um, looking into the funeral home industry. Uh, well, you know, which is a, I don't know, uh...

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  That's pretty big.

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  It's a weird business. You get the business of taking care of bodies. And you don't really have a lot of options, right? Like, you're not like, if someone dies, I don't think you're, are you just allowed to let them fertilize some plants? Are you allowed to do that?

• 2:14:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:51Joe Rogan?

  Do you have to put them in formaldehyde? Do you have to do all that stuff?

• 2:14:55Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, I did an autopsy on a cadaver, you know, back in the day. Open people up and look at them. Well, then there's, you know, surgery, which you go through as well.

• 2:15:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:15:19Joe Rogan?

  That was an odd pause. I was like, where are we going with this conversation?

• 2:15:23Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:15:25Speaker 02

  Well, I love the Hebrew Bible.

• 2:15:28Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:15:28Speaker 02

  I spent all my time in it. Just the weirdest thing there is.

• 2:15:32Joe Rogan?

  Do you, do you have any idea why the Book of Enoch was supposedly excluded from

• 2:15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:39Joe Rogan?

  being included in the Bible?

• 2:15:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:41Joe Rogan?

  Seems to be some debate about that, right?

• 2:15:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I know. There's, uh, you know, there was a, I think the Dead Sea Scroll community used the Book of Enoch. You know, like it was like their bible.

• 2:15:55Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:15:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, very strange. Well, the thing about the Book of Enoch is really, you know, very psychedelic. Uh, but there's not that much, like, I don't think there's much in it as far as,

• 2:16:11Speaker 02

  you know, Judaism itself. I mean, it's that discussion of the righteous being rewarded and the evil being punished, the evil people being punished. But you don't really learn what it means to be righteous. And you don't really learn in, from the Book of Enoch, what is meant to be evil. Um, you don't know how, you know, there isn't all that much information, I don't think, in there. It's historical and it's really weird astronomical stuff, too. Um, but I think, um, it may not have been included in the tech, in the Hebrew Bible because there weren't any ethical teachings. Uh, that one, that could be, uh, you know, had by reading it.

• 2:16:53Joe Rogan?

  No ethical teachings that could be had by reading it? What do you mean by that?

• 2:16:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, one of the essences of Judaism, I think, is ethical monotheism. You know, that's where, you know, there's the, you know, the golden rule and there's one God. You know, so it's ethical monotheism.

• 2:17:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, so where were we?

• 2:17:21Joe Rogan?

  Where were we?

• 2:17:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, just then.

• 2:17:23Joe Rogan?

  Um, we were talking about the Hebrew Bible and we were talking about, what else were we talking about? We were talking-

• 2:17:31Speaker 05

  Why, why Enoch wasn't-

• 2:17:32Joe Rogan?

  Why the book of Enoch was in the Dead Sea Scrolls-

• 2:17:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:17:35Joe Rogan?

  Community, but it wasn't accepted later.

• 2:17:38Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 2:17:38Joe Rogan?

  Um, but some parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, like the book of Isaiah, right? That was the one that was found to be the oldest version of it, that was verbatim.

• 2:17:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, yeah, I think it's just, you know, it was too psychedelic. And it was a-

• 2:17:52Joe Rogan?

  Too psychedelic?

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, I mean, at least in Ezekiel, let's say, which is comparable. You know, Daniel two is quite psychedelic. Um, you know, those were some ethical, you know, some historical narrative-

• 2:18:06Joe Rogan?

  But imagine making that call. Imagine making that call, how, how long ago-

• 2:18:11Speaker 02

  Right, a long time ago.

• 2:18:12Joe Rogan?

  To take that story out. I don't, I'm not buying this one, guys. Leave it out. Meanwhile, that's the one that's the most compelling to me.

• 2:18:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yes, what, what, what do you like about the book of Enoch?

• 2:18:25Joe Rogan?

  It was just so bizarre.

• 2:18:26Speaker 02

  It's very bizarre.

• 2:18:26Joe Rogan?

  Cause it makes the whole thing, it's like, oh, okay, now I get the big story. The whole story's crazy. And the origin story. The, the book of Enoch, like, as it starts, like, in the very first chapter, you're like, wait, what's going on?

• 2:18:41Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 2:18:42Joe Rogan?

  Fornication with humans and the race of giants, like, what? What are you guys describing?

• 2:18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:50Joe Rogan?

  Things coming down and watchers? What are you guys talking about? Like, what was this? This is so left field of the rest of the Bible. But it was included in the same, like, those clay pots that they found in Qumran. It was in there too.

• 2:19:09Joe Rogan?

  Just you don't know what to believe, like what happened there?

• 2:19:12Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, you might not know what to believe, but you can also, you know, believe in one way of doing it as well.

• 2:19:23Joe Rogan?

  One way of doing it?

• 2:19:24Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, as long as you don't get doctor in air.

• 2:19:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, you just do it yourself.

• 2:19:31Joe Rogan?

  Well, when I think about it, I just go blank. I just try to imagine, like, what are they even describing? Like, what is any of that stuff mean?

• 2:19:43Joe Rogan?

  It just seems so alien. There's watchers and they mate with humans and they create the Nephilim giants that consume and destroy the earth, like.

• 2:19:52Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:19:54Joe Rogan?

  Just imagine if that was left into the Bible and they taught that in school, you'd be like, what happened?

• 2:19:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:00Joe Rogan?

  It sounds completely crazy.

• 2:20:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a mistake. Yeah, that's why there is the flood, is, you know, the works was filled with the violence of the Nephilim.

• 2:20:10Joe Rogan?

  I believe it.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  The reason of the flood.

• 2:20:12Joe Rogan?

  I mean, look, if we're this size, you know, and we have so many problems with each other, imagine something that's like triple the size of us, that's running around with us, just picking us up and beating us over the head with each other.

• 2:20:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, one of the figures in the text is Og and Sehon, who are the kings of the Amorites in the land before the Hebrews take over. And, you know, they were giants, that they were believed to be giants. They talk about how the, you know, bed of one of these kings, Og or Sehon, was like nine feet long or something, thirteen feet long. Yeah, you know, so there were a couple still, still alive back then.

• 2:20:56Joe Rogan?

  So do you think those are real humans?

• 2:20:59Speaker 02

  They were giants.

• 2:21:00Joe Rogan?

  So you think they were real giants for sure? Are you 100% convinced the giants roamed the earth like there was 15 foot tall humans? Monstrous humans?

• 2:21:09Speaker 02

  It may not have occurred. Well, that's the reason I think there's some alternative universe that's as real as this one, which was the, yes, the, you know, the site of those things happening.

• 2:21:26Joe Rogan?

  So when you say there's an alternative universe that's as real as this one, do you think we dance back and forth between possible universes? Do you think we're always in the constant same universe? Or do you think like this concept of parallel universes or alternative universes that these, you go back and forth between these?

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  Uh, now? No, I think they're pretty well separated. Don't you?

• 2:21:52Joe Rogan?

  So you think that the world was a different place back then? And that the, the, the doorway to go back and forth was easier to traverse?

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  Uh, it was one directional and it kind of was one level of realities kind of, you know, segueing into this one.

• 2:22:09Joe Rogan?

  So do you think these things involved psychedelics while they were doing this? While they were writing all this stuff down?

• 2:22:14Speaker 02

  Uh, no.

• 2:22:15Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 2:22:15Speaker 02

  Well, I think it involved being attuned to a level, you know, that level of, of reality. Yeah, which would be mediated through DMT in some ways. The visions would be mediated through DMT.

• 2:22:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I wonder if it's possible too, if you're living in a world, like we, we can't even imagine living in a world where not environmentally poisoned. Like we're, we're constantly surrounded by wifi and 5G and we're eating microplastics and glyphosate is on every vegetable and it there's, we're like in a swoop, we're in a soup of toxins. We can't even imagine what it's like to not have that and to not be burdened down by electronics and all the different things that people, like they're probably very different back then. Just, just human beings in general. I bet they're probably very different in a lot of ways.

• 2:23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's one of the reasons I liked living in Gallup is really kind of.

• 2:23:20Joe Rogan?

  Simple, simple, yeah.

• 2:23:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, there wasn't much wifi in there.

• 2:23:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:25Speaker 02

  It was just, uh.

• 2:23:26Joe Rogan?

  Simple's good for you. It's not perfect, though. You feel like, sometimes cities are fun.

• 2:23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you called me when I was living in Gallup and you said to me, "Why are you living there?"

• 2:23:42Joe Rogan?

  You were telling me there was nothing around you. I was like, "Why are you living where there's nothing around you? That's crazy."

• 2:23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:47Joe Rogan?

  Get out of there.

• 2:23:48Speaker 02

  It was, it was, it was my monk phase.

• 2:23:51Joe Rogan?

  Well.

• 2:23:51Speaker 02

  Had to go through it.

• 2:23:52Joe Rogan?

  I don't think there's anything wrong with going through phases, but I think ultimately people like to be around people. Just, but it's, you know, there's a point where there's too many people and then people become like a nuisance to you. You're stuck on the 405 and like, "Oh my god, look at this traffic! Where are all these people going?" And, you know, then people become a burden. There's a bur- there's a nice balance to be had somewhere in there. I don't think it's like living in the woods by yourself. I think that's the dream. It is a weird dream, man.

• 2:24:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, I'm inspired by acid, so.

• 2:24:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. The problem is there's, you're, if you're in the woods by yourself, there's things out there that wanna eat you.

• 2:24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  And if you're by yourself, they're gonna know where you are all the time.

• 2:24:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, once I was cross-country skiing up in the mountains behind Gallup and I was being tracked by a mountain lion.

• 2:24:44Joe Rogan?

  Of course you were.

• 2:24:45Speaker 02

  It seemed like it.

• 2:24:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, of course you were.

• 2:24:47Speaker 02

  It was going across the.

• 2:24:48Joe Rogan?

  Probably thinking about taking you out.

• 2:24:49Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, probably thinking about taking you out.

• 2:24:52Speaker 02

  At a certain point, I turned around, yeah.

• 2:24:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because if you look like you're out of breath, you look like you're tired, like if they think you're limping or something like that, "Oh my god, they can't help themselves."

• 2:25:01Speaker 02

  And the woods were really getting dark around me, so.

• 2:25:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, not good.

• 2:25:04Speaker 02

  It's good, it was time to turn around.

• 2:25:06Joe Rogan?

  Not good.

• 2:25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:08Joe Rogan?

  They're fucking terrifying. And people have this romantic idea of what a mountain lion is. You say that until it kills your dog in front of you. Listen to me, those are dangerous predators. California is the most ridiculous way of handling it.

• 2:25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:24Joe Rogan?

  They, they have to hire people to go kill them. And when they find.

• 2:25:28Speaker 02

  Mountain lions.

• 2:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and when they do, they find that 50% of their diet is pets.

• 2:25:36Joe Rogan?

  You've got something that one hundred percent eats your dogs and cats and you're allowing it to live in the woods near your house. Like, this is kooky.

• 2:25:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:45Joe Rogan?

  Plenty of them in the mountains, kids, okay?

• 2:25:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, coyotes are into pets.

• 2:25:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:25:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:25:52Speaker 02

  If, if, if a cat is lost for more than a few days around our neighborhood, that's pretty much it.

• 2:25:57Joe Rogan?

  If you just let your cat out, you're basically like saying you're gonna get eaten.

• 2:26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:02Joe Rogan?

  I, I know it. You probably don't know it because you're just a cat, but you're gonna get eaten.

• 2:26:06Speaker 02

  That's why you put them out.

• 2:26:07Joe Rogan?

  They're everywhere now, too. Coyotes are in every single city in the United States.

• 2:26:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you've seen coyotes.

• 2:26:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, fuck, yeah.

• 2:26:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, they elope across the road.

• 2:26:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I've had coyote problems where they broke into my chicken coop and killed all my chickens.

• 2:26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, coyotes do that.

• 2:26:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're, they're smart, too, man. They're fascinating.

• 2:26:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:28Joe Rogan?

  They, they trick dogs into chasing after them and then they all ambush them.

• 2:26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:33Joe Rogan?

  They're very clever.

• 2:26:35Speaker 02

  Clever. Yeah, you used to watch the, you know, wily coyote.

• 2:26:39Joe Rogan?

  He was an idiot. That was so dumb.

• 2:26:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a lot of road runners in our neighborhood, too.

• 2:26:43Joe Rogan?

  Crazy, the, the idea that the road runner would be smarter than a coyote. Coyotes are so clever. They're, have you ever read Dan Flores' book Coyote America?

• 2:26:52Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:26:52Joe Rogan?

  It's really good. It's about the origin of the coyote and why the coyote is everywhere now. And part of it is because of the persecution by the gray wolf. So the gray wolves don't mate with the coyotes, but the red wolves do. The gray, the gray wolves, so they're from a totally different line, so they just, just kill the coyotes. Because the coyote is just a small wolf. And so what they figured out is that when a coyote dies, and like when they yell out, "Ow, ow, ow," and it's like roll call. And if someone's missing, the females produce more pups. So they have extra pups.

• 2:27:25Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:27:26Joe Rogan?

  And then they spread. So they, extra pups, and then they move to a new place. And by doing, just because they were persecuted by the gray wolves, when they started getting persecuted by humans, you know, like, so human beings extradited wolves. They, they killed them all off, except for a few in the upper northern parts of the United States, with strychnine. But they couldn't do it with coyotes. The coyotes just kept moving around and separate. They just went to different spots.

• 2:27:50Speaker 02

  They're very smart.

• 2:27:51Joe Rogan?

  They're super smart. They're in New York City right now. Right now, there's coyotes in Central Park in New York City. Little wild wolves running around Central Park.

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:28:01Joe Rogan?

  Coexisting. Just big enough where they don't look threatening. They're just a clever little player of nature's game.

• 2:28:10Speaker 02

  Wile E. Coyote.

• 2:28:11Joe Rogan?

  It's a really good book, though, but it's also about like, it's called Coyote America.

• 2:28:16Speaker 02

  You know, I could have sworn John McPhee wrote about coyotes. Remember John McPhee? Out in the country, his Alaska book.

• 2:28:24Joe Rogan?

  Hmm, I'm sure he probably wrote a book about coyotes, too. This is just different. This is about the origins of, you know, coyote mythology amongst Native Americans and that there's thought to be a trickster and it's, he just, uh, it is a uniquely American animal, you know, it adapts.

• 2:28:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, that's too bad it's eating your chickens.

• 2:28:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, shit happens.

• 2:28:47Speaker 02

  Sorry to hear that, yeah.

• 2:28:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, it happened. They got, they got, they killed them all. My chickens in California, they got into a chicken coop and they killed like nine of them. So the chicken coop got damaged because of the fire. So we had to get another chicken coop set up. And so when we're set up the other chicken coop, it was one that you just buy from like a pet store and it wasn't that durable. And the coyotes figured out how to open it. And they just fucked up these chickens. Ooh, it was a mess, man.

• 2:29:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:14Joe Rogan?

  It was just all feathers.

• 2:29:15Speaker 02

  Feathers and blood.

• 2:29:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it was horrible. They just went on a, they just killed them all. They killed them all. They killed like nine of them.

• 2:29:25Joe Rogan?

  But, uh, you know, that's the fucking game they play and I love that they exist. I'm a fan of coyotes. I like hearing them at night. I think they're cool. I don't want them to eat my dog, though. You know, it's like, and you know, they're not gonna listen. You're like, hey, don't eat my dog and we're cool. No, they're, they're playing a game. It's like, wait till you turn your back and they'll attack your toddler.

• 2:29:48Speaker 02

  I, I think besides, you know, movie trailers, the things I watch on YouTube most are animals killing other animals.

• 2:29:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, bear versus a muskrat, you know, musk ox.

• 2:30:00Joe Rogan?

  A moose or, yeah.

• 2:30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, great stories. It's pretty primal.

• 2:30:04Joe Rogan?

  It is?

• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I like that.

• 2:30:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's pretty interesting. These people were in India and they were on some sort of a a park drive, you know, one of the wildlife parks, and they watched a tiger take out an animal right in front of them. A tiger took out a deer, like, right in front of them. And they filmed it, like.

• 2:30:26Speaker 02

  What's, what's, you know, cool, well, the ones I like are the warthogs.

• 2:30:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, they're so weird looking, aren't they?

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're vicious. They're huge.

• 2:30:35Joe Rogan?

  They look like a Star Wars character. They don't even look like a real animal.

• 2:30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's unkosher pork. Interesting thing.

• 2:30:42Joe Rogan?

  It's unkosher?

• 2:30:43Speaker 02

  Unkosher pigs, yeah. Yeah, the things which are kosher, you know, chew cut and have completely split and separate hooves.

• 2:30:52Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:30:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are the main criteria for mammals.

• 2:30:57Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that's because of ancient diseases?

• 2:31:02Joe Rogan?

  Because it just makes sense that we, we know that, uh, trichinosis, uh, a lot of that comes from pork, right?

• 2:31:11Speaker 02

  It always seemed to me pigs are dirty animals, but I, I had a friend who was insistent that, given the choice, pigs are very clean animals. So, it's hard to say about the filth aspect of it.

• 2:31:23Joe Rogan?

  That's domestic pigs. Um, wild pigs are filthy animals.

• 2:31:27Speaker 02

  Wild pigs?

• 2:31:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, all of them, hundred percent of them. There's a difference between like a domestic pig, this is where it gets really weird. You take a domestic pig and you let it loose in the wild and six weeks later it starts to morph. And it starts to extend it, the snout, its tusks grow longer, its fur gets thicker, it becomes like a wild pig. That's kooky.

• 2:31:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess the primitive or the early stages are really strong.

• 2:31:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, quickly, it happens quickly, like within a month or two. It's really weird.

• 2:32:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wonder how that works. Must be some endocrine thing. Must be their, you know, gonads and their pituitary and their hypothalamus.

• 2:32:12Joe Rogan?

  It's a really good question because like what would let them hit that switch and realize, okay, I'm on my own now. They're not just bringing me my food every day. Fuck. Time to get hard.

• 2:32:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it isn't a conscious decision on their part.

• 2:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:28Speaker 02

  Seems like it just takes over.

• 2:32:29Joe Rogan?

  But I was thinking like if that animal is not, um, like the Muslims don't eat it and the Jews don't eat it. And you would imagine at a time where food was really important and if you can get pork that was way better than not having any meat. And you can't eat it because of your religion. To me, it seems like I, I bet at at least some of the origin of that was there was a disease that was going through these people that were eating pigs.

• 2:33:00Speaker 02

  It's hard to say, you know, the ones that are kosher are the ones which were burnt up in sacrifice as, as well, you know, this, you know, there were sheep and cattle.

• 2:33:11Joe Rogan?

  Pull that microphone up to your mouth.

• 2:33:13Speaker 02

  Sheep and cattle and goats.

• 2:33:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:33:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, those were the sacrificial animals, you know, the ones that were burnt on the altar and also the ones that were eaten.

• 2:33:23Joe Rogan?

  But do you think that, why do you think pork was excluded from both Judaism and also from Islam? Consumption of pork.

• 2:33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it didn't meet the criteria.

• 2:33:35Joe Rogan?

  The criteria for what?

• 2:33:36Speaker 02

  Uh, for a kosher meat. It's just cut and needs to have a completely separated, completely split hoof.

• 2:33:43Joe Rogan?

  No, I get that, but I mean, why, why did they come up with that rule?

• 2:33:47Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:33:47Joe Rogan?

  I think it, it seems to be that those are the animals that have the most amount of trichinosis unless you're eating bears. So I don't know if they're eating any bears back then. Probably not. They're probably eating a lot of deer species. And if you tried to eat that kind of wild pork back then and you didn't cook it correctly, you'd probably get violently ill or die.

• 2:34:06Speaker 02

  Uh, well, you know, there are causes, you know, there are reasons for some of the precepts in the text.

• 2:34:16Joe Rogan?

  It must be, right?

• 2:34:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that are medically established.

• 2:34:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like shellfish probably has to do with red tide, right?

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  Uh, well, bottom dwellers.

• 2:34:26Joe Rogan?

  Bottom dwellers.

• 2:34:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting when you you try to decipher, like, why did they have that stuff in there? Well, kind of makes sense. Pork, pigs rather, do carry a bunch of diseases that can wreck human beings.

• 2:34:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, the person then making the dietary laws knew that. You think that's the reason they wrote those dietary laws?

• 2:34:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, they didn't have meat thermometers back then, right? So I bet a lot of people ate some medium rare pork, or rare pork even, and got violently ill.

• 2:35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:03Joe Rogan?

  Violently ill. Like, trichinosis apparently is brutal. And you have it for life, so that, like, if somebody eats you, they get trichinosis, unless they cook it.

• 2:35:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had C. diff some years ago. I even wrote a book about.

• 2:35:17Joe Rogan?

  What is C. diff?

• 2:35:18Speaker 02

  It's potentially fatal diarrhea.

• 2:35:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no!

• 2:35:23Speaker 02

  It was grim, yeah. I wrote, well, you know, that's.

• 2:35:26Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's right.

• 2:35:27Speaker 02

  That's when I just couldn't do anything for a couple of years.

• 2:35:29Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's right, that's right. I forgot that you had that.

• 2:35:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I wrote a book about it. Anybody's Interested, Joseph Levy Escapes Death.

• 2:35:37Joe Rogan?

  Phew.

• 2:35:39Speaker 02

  You know, maybe that's part of me enjoying watching certain animals, you know, like, you know, animal killing animal. It kind of changes you, that being, you know, that being that close, you know, to the edge.

• 2:35:57Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure.

• 2:36:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, you even offered to come out, you know, to visit or to, you know, do a show at my house.

• 2:36:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, when you were real struggling and we were going back and forth, you just weren't sure if you could travel. I was like, ooh, I was worried about you.

• 2:36:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks.

• 2:36:17Joe Rogan?

  Cause you bounded back. Look at you. You look great.

• 2:36:19Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 2:36:20Joe Rogan?

  But there was a time where I was worried about you because it didn't, you didn't sound like you were doing well at all. Like you were really struggling.

• 2:36:28Joe Rogan?

  And so.

• 2:36:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's one of the things that pushed, well, I began reading concentration camp literature during that phase.

• 2:36:37Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:36:37Speaker 02

  Like, how bad have people had it and what did they do?

• 2:36:41Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:36:41Speaker 02

  It was pretty inspiring. Uh, I liked reading Primo Levi. He's my, my favorite author, Ellie Wiesel too.

• 2:36:51Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, Auschwitz and the end of Auschwitz, you like, you know, the end, the last month or two. Uh, seemed like it was really something, you know, type this and nobody cleaning up after them for weeks. Things freezing and bursting. It was just nuts. Uh, so yeah, Primo Levi was a chemist, very clinical, took notes, remembered things. You know, very kind of dispassionate, almost journalistic description. The kinds of things people can go through. Yeah. You know, so that cheered me up in a way. I mean, distracted me like, boy, you know, they had it way worse and they had faith in something.

• 2:37:32Speaker 02

  So I just, I think that helps, uh, you know, strengthen my faith, like God wasn't done with me.

• 2:37:40Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 2:37:42Joe Rogan?

  So did you feel like you had an obligation to get to work once you got healthy again? Like God gave you this chance?

• 2:37:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:51Joe Rogan?

  This bounce back?

• 2:37:52Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:37:52Joe Rogan?

  Return of the Mac?

• 2:37:54Speaker 02

  Thank God.

• 2:37:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's great to see you looking healthy because I really did worry. Cause it's, you know, sometimes people, a bad health trip takes them, just takes them down and, and weakens them so much that they never really come back.

• 2:38:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you think about death. You must think about death.

• 2:38:14Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:38:14Speaker 02

  I think about death.

• 2:38:15Joe Rogan?

  You have to. It's, it's coming whether you want it or not.

• 2:38:19Speaker 02

  Be interesting to not think about death.

• 2:38:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I don't dwell on it, but I'm, I'm definitely aware of it.

• 2:38:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, there was a week or two, uh, friends came over talking about, you know, their, their wishes or their interest in medically assisted death.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  There was a big article about that even a couple of months ago in one of the British journals.

• 2:38:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Medically assisted death. I, he called our rabbi and I asked his advice. And he said, you know, you might be, you know, you, you may be obligated to knock the pills onto the floor.

• 2:39:03Speaker 02

  I thought that was an interesting take.

• 2:39:04Joe Rogan?

  You may be obligated to knock the pills onto the floor.

• 2:39:07Speaker 02

  From the person's hand who's about to take them. Well, that would be, yeah.

• 2:39:13Speaker 02

  Or, you know, within, or more the equivalent, you know, like, you know, there might be some drugs going in IV would.

• 2:39:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 2:39:23Speaker 02

  Stop them up.

• 2:39:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, so, uh, well, yeah, I like, I, I feel pretty good. So I wonder, well, you know, what happens if I start feeling really bad? Yeah. So, uh, you know, I feel good. So I figure, well, just keep me out of pain. And you give me enough, you know, morphine. See what happens. My mom died. I watched her die.

• 2:39:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:39:49Speaker 02

  And we gave her morphine, Ativan too, like Valium. Yeah, it was pretty, uh.

• 2:39:58Joe Rogan?

  Peaceful.

• 2:39:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it, it was quiet. Yeah.

• 2:40:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:02Joe Rogan?

  That's a weird thing because you don't want anybody poisoning anybody. But you do wanna give people the option to go out gracefully.

• 2:40:11Speaker 02

  Well, I think you'd just be feeling great.

• 2:40:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:40:15Speaker 02

  You'd be feeling great.

• 2:40:16Joe Rogan?

  That would be gracefully, right? Just one burst. I had a morphine drip when I had my knee operated on once in the nineties. And it was incredible. It was incredible. And I, people tell me this is not true, but I swear I remember this being true. That you could press the button anytime you wanted more morphine.

• 2:40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I think it's called patient controlled analgesia or something.

• 2:40:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, people are like, no, no, you're remembering it wrong. I'm like, I don't think I am, man. I really remember hitting that button a bunch of times and meeting Jesus. It was like the most wonderful, loving hug by the universe. It was just like this thing in bed while my leg is on this continual motion machine. You know what those are?

• 2:41:04Speaker 02

  Uh, no, but I can imagine.

• 2:41:06Joe Rogan?

  When they do ACL reconstructions, when they do a patella tendon graft, it's a pretty violent operation. They have to cut your knee open like a fish. They take a slice of your patella tendon along with a chunk of your bone from your shin and a chunk of your bone from your kneecap. And then they screw it all back in place. And to keep it from seizing up while you're lying in bed, your leg is on this machine that goes like this. Extends it and brings it back, extends it and brings it back. Cause otherwise it'll lock up and then you're fucked.

• 2:41:33Speaker 02

  Were you awake when this was happening?

• 2:41:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, you're awake. Yeah, I was awake for the operation. Cause my thought is I'm only gonna have one knee operation. I wanna be awake for it. So they did like an epidural.

• 2:41:43Speaker 02

  Epidural, yeah.

• 2:41:44Joe Rogan?

  So I was awake. I watched it. I watched on a monitor. It was crazy. Crazy to watch this guy open my knee up, screw it in place. Um, the point is while I was in the hospital bed, they had this button that you could press when you wanted more morphine. And I hit that button like a bunch of times and I was like, wow. It felt incredible. And I only did, and I remember also thinking, boy, this could be a problem. Cause I, I had done construction with a guy who had a bit of a heroin problem. And so I was aware that people would get like a real opiate problem. And when I was in bed, I was like, I get it. I get it now. It feels, it feels amazing.

• 2:42:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I would say cool, but yeah.

• 2:42:29Joe Rogan?

  But also, I knew that like my leg was fucked. I knew it was gonna take forever before it felt normal again. It was in pain and like, just like, okay, I can't do anything, but enjoy this right now. Just like, let me take a couple of taps and wee.

• 2:42:44Speaker 02

  You know.

• 2:42:44Joe Rogan?

  I don't care anymore.

• 2:42:45Speaker 02

  It's called God's medicine for, you know, God's own medicine for a reason.

• 2:42:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it felt like a hug. It felt like the universe giving you a hug.

• 2:42:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, we- well, in- interesting, you mentioned that one day, you were, you know, talking about faith and belief and what you base it on. Um, I was just talking about how, uh, when I was living up in Taos, I was feeling kind of alone and sad. And I prayed, you know, I prayed to God, you know, help me. And I felt this loving hug kind of embrace me at the, at the moment.

• 2:43:20Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:43:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, which must have been, you know, mediated probably by endorphins too.

• 2:43:27Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:43:27Speaker 02

  Because it, you know, it sounds pretty similar.

• 2:43:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but it's interesting that we always wanna like dismiss anything positive like that. Oh, it's probably just endorphins just giving you this good feeling.

• 2:43:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:43:39Joe Rogan?

  Right, but is endorphins because of or the source of? Like, which one is it? We, it, it might just be a part of it. Like, yeah, the endorphins are real, but also is the experience.

• 2:43:52Speaker 02

  It's the experience that you're experiencing.

• 2:43:55Joe Rogan?

  And the intention that you're putting out there.

• 2:43:56Speaker 02

  Right, right. You're not, you're feeling the endorphins attaching to the receptors.

• 2:44:01Joe Rogan?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 2:44:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, you feel wonderful.

• 2:44:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's something real to it.

• 2:44:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, drugs are interesting.

• 2:44:09Joe Rogan?

  They are.

• 2:44:10Speaker 02

  Well, I'm I.

• 2:44:10Joe Rogan?

  I just wish they weren't being controlled by the cartels.

• 2:44:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:15Joe Rogan?

  That's what's crazy. That's what's crazy is like people are not gonna stop using. I don't think, I think there's a lot of drugs you should never use, kids. And there's a lot of people that should never use any drugs. But the fact that they are always going to and that the only way they can get them is through a criminal organization. And we haven't done our fucking one plus one equals two on that still in 2025?

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, a dispensary for everything you want.

• 2:44:40Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's gotta be more than that, man, because some of that stuff's heavy. So it's not just gonna be an dispensary, but it also has to be some sort of a counseling center, some sort of a guided trip. There's gotta be like very clear ethics. You know, you're gonna have people that really know what they're doing and just wanna help and don't have any weird narcissistic intentions or anything else. They just wanna help people. You'd have to have that too, because there's gonna be a lot of freaked out people. If you make mushrooms and acid and all these things legal, you can just go get it. Are you 18? Oh, go buy it. Like.

• 2:45:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there should be increased access.

• 2:45:22Joe Rogan?

  I think so too.

• 2:45:23Speaker 02

  You know, but.

• 2:45:23Joe Rogan?

  I'm not opposed to, I'm just saying the reality of the new interface. If we just have all of a sudden, these drugs are not just legal, but legal and available for adults to buy, then you're gonna deal with a whole new set of problems that didn't exist before. I'm not saying you shouldn't deal with that problem. I think, I think it's inevitable. It's probably gonna happen anyway. But those problems will be uniquely inflated by everything being legal. Cause people are just gonna go out and go fucking crazy.

• 2:45:52Speaker 02

  And why is that?

• 2:45:53Joe Rogan?

  Because if you can go to the bar and you can just go buy acid, do you know how many people are gonna just go get acid? If you could go like to any corner liquor store and pick up a pound of mushrooms, like if it's just totally legal, cause you can go to liquor store and get a case of beer, right? You can get a case of whiskey. You can get like 24 bottles of whiskey. That is death by whiskey. There's no way you're drinking that tonight. Sir, you can't buy that many. They never tell you that. Like, go ahead. You wanna spend that money? So if you wanted to do that with mushrooms and you could go to the liquor store and buy pounds of mushrooms.

• 2:46:28Speaker 02

  Well, you know, I think with increased access, there's increased, you know, mortality.

• 2:46:32Joe Rogan?

  There will be.

• 2:46:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:46:34Joe Rogan?

  And there's not just that. It's like people that just like they ruin their brains. They're not ready for it. They're maybe they're barely hanging on as it is and then they have too many psychedelic trips and now they're really fucked up and.

• 2:46:46Speaker 02

  Well.

• 2:46:46Joe Rogan?

  That's true too.

• 2:46:47Speaker 02

  You'll never hear me advocate for the use of drugs.

• 2:46:51Joe Rogan?

  Good for you.

• 2:46:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've never said people should take drugs. I say, you know, I say people shouldn't.

• 2:46:56Joe Rogan?

  Meanwhile, how many people are on amphetamines right now?

• 2:47:01Speaker 02

  A lot of people on amphetamines. I've got an amphetamine story.

• 2:47:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:08Speaker 02

  A friend gave me some Adderall one day. Well, I asked him for it.

• 2:47:13Joe Rogan?

  Look at you, you came clean. You came clean right away with no prompting. That's funny.

• 2:47:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was taking it for ADHD. I said, help. And I wrote this review. Well, you know, the there used to be a magazine called Shaman's Drum, which we, which did a book review on the on the DMT book. And he didn't think it should be called the spirit molecule, the spirit molecule, rather, the dream molecule. I took umbrage. So after I took the Adderall, I wrote a 20-page letter.

• 2:47:51Speaker 02

  It was pretty self, you know, what's the word inflated. So.

• 2:47:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, you know, the next morning.

• 2:47:59Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious.

• 2:48:00Speaker 02

  I you looked at it and it was terrible.

• 2:48:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:04Speaker 02

  So I didn't send it.

• 2:48:07Joe Rogan?

  All my friends who have done, I've never done coke, but all my friends who do coke that do stand-up comedy say you can't do stand-up comedy on coke. They say you have no feeling. You don't like, you don't connect with the audience. It's like, it's like a barrier. You could kind of pull it off maybe, but you never really like lock in.

• 2:48:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. So you're not funny on it.

• 2:48:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're not funny on it. You're probably detached. You're probably self-obsessed, you know? It's a weird drive. I just.

• 2:48:37Speaker 02

  Well, it would be like you were talking to yourself and you loved it.

• 2:48:40Joe Rogan?

  You loved the sound of your fucking voice. But I think Adderall's a lot like that too, though. It's very similar. There's something similar to that.

• 2:48:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. In my case, it was just writing, just writing, writing, writing, feeling like, you know. I had a lot to say.

• 2:48:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm not even saying you shouldn't do it, but journalists I know do it. I know a lot of journalists who love Adderall. They might not even say they love Adderall, but they fucking love Adderall. I know they do it all the time. And you can, you know, you could blame it on deadlines and, you know, having to write stories and really needing to push through because you don't have enough time. I totally get it. And I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. But it's just fascinating how many people do it.

• 2:49:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was the case with P K Dick. He was into amphetamines.

• 2:49:30Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:49:31Speaker 02

  And he died of a stroke.

• 2:49:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, I'm sure you're gonna cook those veins. You're gonna cook everything. If you're doing amphetamines all the time, you're cooking your brain, son.

• 2:49:40Speaker 02

  Do you like P K Dick?

• 2:49:42Joe Rogan?

  Um, I haven't read him since high school, you know?

• 2:49:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I went through a phase. Well, I was talking about Saint Peter's Snow. Uh, it's written by a Viennese Jew mathematician guy named Perutz, who did Saint Peter's Snow. And I've read all of his books. There's like eight. And, uh, yeah, it's fun to get to know so much. So, once I started thinking about Dick, well, I watched the TV show, uh, what's it called? The Man From The High Castle and got me interested in reading the novel.

• 2:50:15Joe Rogan?

  Mmm.

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  By Dick and, uh, went through most of his work.

• 2:50:19Joe Rogan?

  What was the movie they did based on one of his novels?

• 2:50:23Speaker 02

  I love Dick, or I love P K Dick.

• 2:50:26Joe Rogan?

  There was a movie they did based on one of his novels. Do you remember which one it was?

• 2:50:29Speaker 02

  Oh, quite a few.

• 2:50:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:50:31Speaker 02

  There's one movie that-

• 2:50:33Joe Rogan?

  Minority Report. Blade Runner. That's right. That's right. Just from Bureau.

• 2:50:37Speaker 02

  Um.

• 2:50:38Joe Rogan?

  Total Recall was his, too?

• 2:50:39Speaker 02

  Total Recall. We Can Remember For It Whole, uh, We Can Remember For You, We Can Remember For You Wholesale is the one that was, um,

• 2:50:54Speaker 02

  Total recall.

• 2:50:56Joe Rogan?

  Blade Runner was amazing. The original Blade Runner with Rutger Hauer. Oh my god.

• 2:51:04Speaker 02

  Did you, what about the, um, oh gosh, the one with, you know, Keanu Reeves and Robert Downey Jr. And the rotoscope.

• 2:51:11Joe Rogan?

  That's the Scanner Darklight.

• 2:51:12Speaker 02

  Scanner Darklight.

• 2:51:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah. Alex Jones is in that, isn't he? Yeah.

• 2:51:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's a novel. My dick, very interesting. Yeah, the guy with the skin or the suit that changed according to emotions.

• 2:51:30Joe Rogan?

  Remember mood rings?

• 2:51:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:51:32Joe Rogan?

  Do you remember those?

• 2:51:33Speaker 02

  Um, I think that may have been.

• 2:51:36Joe Rogan?

  They had them when I was in high school. They had mood rings. You were cool if you had a mood ring when I was in high school. So mood ring, apparently depending upon your body temperature would light, you know, different hues. You never heard of it?

• 2:51:50Speaker 02

  Uh, not really.

• 2:51:52Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, see if you can find mood rings.

• 2:51:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that may have been from the eighties or something.

• 2:51:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm old dude. How old are you?

• 2:51:57Speaker 02

  I was more serious by then.

• 2:51:59Joe Rogan?

  How old are you now?

• 2:52:00Speaker 02

  Seventy-three.

• 2:52:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay, you're older than me, dog. I'm fifty-eight. So, um, you look great, by the way. You really do.

• 2:52:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:08Joe Rogan?

  You really do. And you look so much better than you did when you were struggling. So it's really nice to see you bounce back like that. This, uh, mood rings became a nineteen-seventy sensation. Here we go.

• 2:52:20Speaker 02

  Seventies, yeah.

• 2:52:21Joe Rogan?

  Here we go. So, uh, I went to high school in eighty-one and they were still down with mood rings if you were in the right circles.

• 2:52:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:31Joe Rogan?

  But, uh, these goofy things, uh, you would wear them. And, uh, they'd make your hand green, of course, because they're made out of crap, like the metal's crap. But they had these weird rocks on them that would, uh, change color. See if you find like a photo of one. But like a photo of one changing color.

• 2:52:53Speaker 05

  That's not a photo, that'd be a video.

• 2:52:55Joe Rogan?

  Uh, I'm sorry. I mean, you know what I'm saying, like a show of what it looks like. They're kinda dope though. It's kinda, kinda cool still.

• 2:53:05Speaker 05

  Is that a rock? What the fuck is that? What does that?

• 2:53:07Joe Rogan?

  That's a good question. I don't know. What is a mood, let's find that out. What is a mood ring made out of? What is it made out of? Is it like a, a resin or something?

• 2:53:16Speaker 02

  It might be some kind of acrylic with some...

• 2:53:20Joe Rogan?

  Or is it an actual rock? Okay, so this dude came up with the mood ring? Okay.

• 2:53:28Joe Rogan?

  Okay, who created the mood ring remains topic of some debate. Jewelry designer named Marvin Wernick says he invented the mood ring years before 1975, developing the idea after he saw a doctor use a thermochromic temperature measuring tape on a patient. Said he came up with the idea of a mood ring after the stress of working in Wall Street led him to explore biofeedback, a therapeutic technique where people improve their health by responding to signals from their own bodies. Huh. So what are the crystals made out of, bro?

• 2:53:59Speaker 02

  Crystals.

• 2:54:00Joe Rogan?

  Crystals. What are they? What are the crystals made out of? Ooh, look how pretty. That's pretty, isn't it? Like a dope ring that's a mood ring?

• 2:54:11Joe Rogan?

  You know? That way like you could tell whether or not your significant other is upset at you? Like, let me look at your fingers. You're lying.

• 2:54:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, you know, form of, you know, global, you know, communication, huh? No keeping secrets.

• 2:54:29Joe Rogan?

  I don't think it really works. I think it's only just, it's heat. If you go to the gym and you slip it on, you look like you're like really angry.

• 2:54:37Speaker 02

  Well, if, if your hands are cold.

• 2:54:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, exactly. It's not gonna work. So, it's just dumb. It's just dumb, but people loved it when I was a kid.

• 2:54:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it kinda passed me by.

• 2:54:47Joe Rogan?

  Uh, you got lucky. You missed the dumb mood swing.

• 2:54:51Speaker 02

  I was in school.

• 2:54:52Joe Rogan?

  Mood ring swing.

• 2:54:55Joe Rogan?

  When you first, this, what's interesting is when you first started those studies and you for, and you published DMT, the spirit molecule.

• 2:55:05Joe Rogan?

  Did that have an effect on people taking you seriously with all your other work? Was it one of those things where you got labeled now, you're the crazy psychedelic guy who did that nutty study?

• 2:55:19Joe Rogan?

  Or was there enough people that were like, oh, this is great, now you have a legitimate academic studying this in a federally approved way, this is actually good for everybody, and maybe this opens the door, it certainly opened up the door to the discussion. Like, after you put that book out, and people who, if you read that book, you'll come to the conclusion that there's something mighty going on below the surface of human life in general that can be accessed in this very weird way.

• 2:55:50Speaker 02

  Within a second or two.

• 2:55:51Joe Rogan?

  It's banana, I've never done it the way you guys did it, but it's, the regular way is bananas. And somehow or another, we're depriving people of this.

• 2:56:02Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, shouldn't it be the front page news?

• 2:56:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:05Speaker 02

  Is you can give this drug regularly and everybody goes to the same place?

• 2:56:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:10Speaker 02

  And it's a very weird place?

• 2:56:12Joe Rogan?

  Well-

• 2:56:12Speaker 02

  I think it ought to be on people's, well, it ought to be on people's lips.

• 2:56:16Joe Rogan?

  DMT stopped my fascination with UFOs. Because I was like, it stopped it, paused it, I should say. It paused it because I was like, no matter what a UFO looks like, it's not as crazy as what I just saw. Like, no matter what, are you, just an actual metal flying disc from another planet, I'd be like, huh, yawn. Like, that's nothing, it's nothing compared to what exists in a few seconds.

• 2:56:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, well, would you say that you went to the same place, you went back there each time, was it the same place?

• 2:56:47Joe Rogan?

  You can tell me, you tell me, I don't know. I've done it differently, and I've done it differently with sound, with, um, Icarus, which was wild.

• 2:56:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:57Joe Rogan?

  That was wild, that was like, like, dancing things. That was really fascinating, when you realize like, oh, that's why the music is made the way it's made. Like, the music is perfect for that.

• 2:57:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, you get a lot of-

• 2:57:10Joe Rogan?

  It's perfect for the psychedelic trip.

• 2:57:12Speaker 02

  I think it insight into music by seeing it.

• 2:57:15Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm, 100%, I think of music differently from that trip.

• 2:57:20Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:57:20Joe Rogan?

  And then, you know, I think-

• 2:57:24Joe Rogan?

  I really want to explore Kundalini Yoga. I just have like put it off forever. Cause I've had friends that have done DMT and also do Kundalini Yoga and they'll tell you dude, if you work hard enough, you can get to that place. Where you can get to that place with on the natch, completely in your own mind, without taking any drug at all, where you could full on DMT trip. And the guy, the guy who told me this was very reliable. And had experienced DMT, was also a Jiu Jitsu black belt, like a solid guy. Like I believed him and he's like, you can get there.

• 2:57:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Have you ever done or heard about that holotropic breath work?

• 2:58:01Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 2:58:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's come true. I've done that and it switched me into a very highly altered state.

• 2:58:08Joe Rogan?

  Very highly altered state.

• 2:58:09Speaker 02

  It, it felt like, you know, as long as we're talking drugs, it, it felt more like MDMA than it did DMT.

• 2:58:15Joe Rogan?

  I've had some moments before I had like a big show or something and I just really wanted to relax, where I'll do deep breathing and stretching, just deep breathing and stretching. And you get high as fuck. It's just this weird natural high that happens. Like you alleviate tension in your body and your body rewards you for it with all this endorphin rush and dopamine and you get so friendly and so sweet. You just want to hug everybody, you want everybody to be happy. It's like, it like releases this, like you're carrying around physical tension that manifests itself in the way you view the world. And you can get out of it on your own, which is nuts.

• 2:58:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. So how do you think, you know, what, what do you think it means that that's built into our systems?

• 2:59:00Joe Rogan?

  I think we need physical activity and I think we always have had physical activity. So it wasn't ever a thing where you had a mandate, physical activity. It's like we had to to stay alive. So because of that, there's like, the body functions in that way. It's only strong if it's forced to work. It only has a good immune system if it's exposed to a certain amount of different people and different bios. It, it, it's, it's a... It becomes, just like a muscle does, when it gets sedentary. It atrophies. And your body, and so that's the problem with like the human civilization. We get into cities, everything becomes easier. You're sedentary most of the time. The body decays and you're in a, you're in a state where you're depressed all the time.

• 2:59:45Joe Rogan?

  You don't know why. Well, it's because your, your body doesn't, it's not designed to work like that. For tens of thousands of years, you had to be active. You had to be running around. You had to be carrying things. You had to be getting water. You had to be building things. You had to be hunting things and fishing. You had to be moving because you had to stay alive. And then all of a sudden, you're not. And I think that's one of the great dilemmas of mental health in this country. That's maybe dismissed by a lot of people. One of the great dilemmas is you're sedentary.

• 3:00:13Speaker 02

  Well, I think, I think there were some studies comparing Prozac way back when with, with a routine of physical exercise. And exercise is an antidepressant.

• 3:00:22Joe Rogan?

  Though it's been recent ones with SSRIs. That show that it's more effective, more effective than SSRIs.

• 3:00:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:00:29Joe Rogan?

  Because we're not supposed to be sedentary and nobody wants to be told what to do. And nobody wants to feel bad. I get it. But you, you have to feel bad for yourself so you could feel better later. You just have to get coached. That's all it is. And don't resist it. Just, just embrace it.

• 3:00:44Speaker 02

  Well, what about Ozepic though?

• 3:00:47Joe Rogan?

  I don't think those things are bad in the right circumstances. I don't think if you're a guy and you need to lose 30 pounds, you get on that, come on, man. You can do that. You can lose, I'll be your friend. I'll fucking help you. Like just stop eating sugar. Stop eating bread. Get yourself on a workout schedule. We're gonna say, I'm gonna get on the fucking bike in the morning. I'm gonna get on that stupid fucking, I'm gonna do a Peloton workout every day for a month. You'll lose 20 pounds that month.

• 3:01:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:01:15Joe Rogan?

  You can do it. You just have to be focused.

• 3:01:17Speaker 02

  Right, but.

• 3:01:18Joe Rogan?

  But if you're 500 pounds, if you're, if you're, if you're morbidly obese, if you're really addicted to food, you've got a real problem. I think it can help you get to a healthy path. That's what I think it's really the best for. If it can help people get to a healthy path where they stop overeating, they can get it under control, they get new patterns. And then they start getting addicted to walking maybe, get addicted to feeling better, start being able to do things you couldn't do before. There's like hundreds of pages of Instagram people who during COVID, where, where they were obese, wind up losing 100, 200 pounds.

• 3:01:53Joe Rogan?

  Do you know who Jelly Roll is?

• 3:01:55Speaker 02

  Uh, no, but I've seen some, uh, you know, some stories, some pictures of people that were very, very, very heavy, eight hundred pounds.

• 3:02:02Joe Rogan?

  Jelly Roll is an amazing musician, an incredible guy who like went to jail, he's got face tattoos, but he's the sweetest person that's ever lived. He's lost like two hundred pounds in the last year or so. Is it a year and a half, two years? Yeah. He looks amazing.

• 3:02:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:19Joe Rogan?

  No Ozempic.

• 3:02:21Speaker 02

  No Ozempic.

• 3:02:21Joe Rogan?

  No Ozempic, just doing it the right way, exercising, but I just think the problem, there's always like some sort of a trade-off when it comes to what you do and don't do. Look at the size he used to be and look what he looks like now. Isn't that insane?

• 3:02:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:02:36Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that insane?

• 3:02:37Speaker 02

  Amazing.

• 3:02:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, the sweetest fucking guy of all time, too.

• 3:02:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, so you could lose that weight. It's, it's, well, it's like depression and exercise.

• 3:02:45Joe Rogan?

  But also, he's a wealthy star, he has access to great food, he has a reason to believe his life is gonna be better. He's got a great life already.

• 3:02:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, for most people.

• 3:02:54Joe Rogan?

  Enhancing himself.

• 3:02:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I think for most people, like, actually developing a real exercise regimen would be way harder than just taking Prozac.

• 3:03:03Joe Rogan?

  Yes, but that's where a guy like that comes in play. We go, well, he can do it, I can do it too. Like, what do you, what do you have to do? You just have to start slow, keep moving, don't stop, get, get a schedule, put it together, make some progress, note the progress, get excited about progress, keep going. But if Ozempic helps you, like, fucking, I'm for whatever helps you, man. You know, I've had a friend that was very close to suicide before he got on SSRIs. I'll never say there's, no one should ever take SSRIs, because I don't know if he would have bounced back, but he did bounce back, and then he got himself off of them, and then he got healthy. And now he's great. And this is, you know, with a lot of medications. A lot of them are, they have, there's real benefits for them, and I think Ozempic is one of those. I think if you're, if you're

• 3:03:47Joe Rogan?

  a morbid little obese, obese person, one of the things that my friend Brigham Buehler, who is the CEO of Ways to Well? And Waste Well is also a pharmacy, they're a compounding pharmacy, so they make some peptides. And he said, "You can make it so that it doesn't have all the negative effects by making it for the actual size of the person, so you give them the exact dose, and combining peptides that's going to prevent bone loss and muscle loss." Like, it's possible to healthily slow the process down, stop the overeating, get the inflammation in check, get the diet in check, but it's gotta be done like, systemically.

• 3:04:30Joe Rogan?

  And they want you to do it with like, a certain amount of exercise per week, and they want you to eat vegetables and meat, and just healthy stuff only. Throw out all the bullshit, and let's try to get this train back on track.

• 3:04:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, it reminds me of that PK Dick story. Did you, uh, what's it called? The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldridge. It's about competition between an extra stellar, interstellar psychedelic versus a terrestrial psychedelic. Which company was going to be able to, you know, sell the psychedelic or the worldview of choice. You know, the one that came from the earth, got people into, into, um, Perky Patty's world, where everybody was this big, and they all lived in this house together and did stuff, like, they went to the beach and had barbecues and things.

• 3:05:25Speaker 02

  You know, that was the terrestrial psychedelic that was competing against an interstellar psychedelic. Which was completely horrible, it was weird. It was like, you never stopped tripping.

• 3:05:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh no, oh no.

• 3:05:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that was gradually spreading.

• 3:05:43Joe Rogan?

  Oh, well, I think that's everybody's fear when they do something. Like, "Oh my god, what if this never ends? What if this is my new reality? Like, oh my god, I'm done, I'm dead, I'm gone."

• 3:05:53Speaker 02

  It's always been this way, it will always be this way. Yeah, that was my worst trip ever.

• 3:05:57Joe Rogan?

  Right. And then for people with severe anxiety, some people just don't bounce back well from something like that. And that's why never advocate drugs to anybody.

• 3:06:05Speaker 02

  I never have.

• 3:06:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I know you haven't. Well, you didn't even want to admit that you did them when we first started talking.

• 3:06:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:06:11Joe Rogan?

  You didn't even want to admit you smoked pot.

• 3:06:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, at this point, you know.

• 3:06:14Joe Rogan?

  But I think you thought back then like to be taken seriously as a researcher.

• 3:06:18Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true, but I'm less of a researcher now, so I don't have that same kind of, you know, camouflage to wear.

• 3:06:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes, well, I'm glad because, like, without you, the the understanding of what that experience is would be greatly diminished in popular culture. I don't think people would really understand what it is if it wasn't for that book. And I know you had to really stick your neck out to try to make something like that.

• 3:06:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06:46Joe Rogan?

  And it's bizarre because it is a thing. It's a real thing. And you should know about real things. You should know about real things that have probably been in human use for thousands and thousands of years and hidden from you by Nixon.

• 3:07:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, the thing I like so much about DMT is that it's endogenous. It's made in the brain.

• 3:07:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Do you think it's what we're making when we're dreaming?

• 3:07:13Speaker 02

  It might be what we're making right now. Yeah, you know, that's one idea is that it regulates consensus reality by maintaining itself at a certain concentration in the brain.

• 3:07:24Joe Rogan?

  I buy that. But I buy a lot of things.

• 3:07:26Speaker 02

  It's the matrix, the endo-matrix.

• 3:07:29Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:07:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, you know about the matrix or this red laser and DMT?

• 3:07:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:07:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07:37Joe Rogan?

  Tell people about it because it's nuts.

• 3:07:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know much about it.

• 3:07:41Joe Rogan?

  You haven't done it?

• 3:07:41Speaker 02

  Uh, no.

• 3:07:43Joe Rogan?

  So apparently it's a red laser, and if you're tripping on DMT and you look down or below, so you could either look from below it, look up, or from above it, look down, right? Is that correct?

• 3:07:56Speaker 02

  I didn't know there was a directional.

• 3:07:58Joe Rogan?

  I think it's a directional thing. I don't think if it's on the wall, you read it. I think you have to get above it and look down.

• 3:08:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:08:03Joe Rogan?

  I don't know. I haven't done it. But I think that's what they say, and if you do that, you see code.

• 3:08:07Speaker 02

  Code, yeah, like, you know, like the matrix.

• 3:08:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:11Speaker 02

  Or Japanese.

• 3:08:13Joe Rogan?

  If there's anybody that should believe that life isn't real, it's me.

• 3:08:16Speaker 02

  Life isn't real?

• 3:08:17Joe Rogan?

  That it's not real, like that that maybe there is some sort of magical quality to this experience. Some sort of a very difficult to grasp aspect of reality that we ignore. That's spiritual or mystical, or there's something going on outside of just normal physical reality.

• 3:08:42Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I think that things wouldn't be this way otherwise. Cause certain things are encouraged and certain things are discouraged.

• 3:08:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:51Speaker 02

  And, you know, cause and effect goes a certain way. It's not neutral.

• 3:08:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:08:54Speaker 02

  You know, it kind of pushes you in one direction.

• 3:08:56Joe Rogan?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:08:57Speaker 02

  You know, so who created cause and effect? What are cause and effects? Causes?

• 3:09:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:09:04Speaker 02

  Motivations.

• 3:09:05Joe Rogan?

  What are, what are angels and demons?

• 3:09:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:09:08Joe Rogan?

  Right? What is, where, where evil, where does evil come from? We know it's real.

• 3:09:13Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 3:09:14Joe Rogan?

  Where does good come from? We know it's real. It's like, everybody wants to be so smart. They dismiss the idea of angels and demons. It's really fascinating. Because they're really just a word for an actual force that creates a damaging, terrifying, or wonderful, amazing effect. Good and evil.

• 3:09:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:09:35Joe Rogan?

  Right?

• 3:09:36Speaker 02

  Angels and demons.

• 3:09:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like this, the effect is real, and we both know that people are capable of either one. It's one of the reasons why we love people, though, is because we love great people because we know that there's terrible people. We love people that are warm and friendly and kind and sweet. Because we know that there's people that are out there that are self-serving and shitty and mean. You know, and that's, we need one to appreciate the other. And that's what's so fucked up about being a person.

• 3:10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, in the text, anyway, angels are intermediaries. You know, like, you know, God has no body, right? So how can God interact with the world? You know, so the angels are the intermediaries.

• 3:10:17Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense.

• 3:10:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, like DMT in a way is the most spiritual of the physical.

• 3:10:22Joe Rogan?

  What do you think about the people that try to connect UAPs with angels?

• 3:10:28Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 3:10:30Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever had a UAP, UFO?

• 3:10:32Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 3:10:33Joe Rogan?

  Alien experience?

• 3:10:34Speaker 02

  No, I've never, no, not really. What about you?

• 3:10:37Joe Rogan?

  No. I'm trying, bro.

• 3:10:40Speaker 02

  You're trying, how do you try?

• 3:10:40Joe Rogan?

  I'm trying. I get on the rooftop, I got a flashlight. No, I, I wish, yeah, I wish I saw something. I wish I saw something that was like 100%, there's no way that's ours.

• 3:10:51Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:10:51Joe Rogan?

  It'd be cool.

• 3:10:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's never happened.

• 3:10:54Joe Rogan?

  But, I don't think they're all lying. I don't think that's the case. I don't think they're all lying. There's too many of them that, that tell a story that...

• 3:11:05Joe Rogan?

  It just doesn't seem like bullshit.

• 3:11:07Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Has, has Whitley Strieber been on your show?

• 3:11:09Joe Rogan?

  No. He's an odd one because he's a fiction writer. You know, not that I don't believe him, but when a guy writes fantastical fiction for a living and then has a fantastical, fantastical fictional experience that actually happens to him that becomes his, his thing. It's like Arsenio Hall said, "Things that make you go hmm."

• 3:11:33Joe Rogan?

  I'm not saying that it didn't actually happen to him because his, his experience, it would be ironic if it did because then nobody would believe him because he writes fiction, right? But his experiences mirror a lot of the experiences from the John Mack book. You know, um, did you read that book, Abduction?

• 3:11:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I knew John. Back in the day, I liked him. Very smart guy.

• 3:11:53Joe Rogan?

  Those, um, stories, and that was back before the internet really, where there was any social media or anything like that back then. Um, those stories were oddly uniform.

• 3:12:06Speaker 02

  Well, they were, and you know, John Mack, the psychiatrist Yeah. from Harvard or Cambridge, uh, yeah, we talked about the similarities between his subjects reports and our DMT volunteers. He thought we had, you know, come across a technology that would make contact, at least the experience of contact, you know, uh, something that could be studied scientifically.

• 3:12:33Joe Rogan?

  Geez.

• 3:12:36Joe Rogan?

  Someone should reignite that idea right now.

• 3:12:39Speaker 02

  I'm surprised DMT is not in the news more.

• 3:12:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, there was a study that they were doing in England, correct?

• 3:12:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a couple of groups.

• 3:12:47Joe Rogan?

  Where they were doing a long-term drip, not like yours. So yours was like one push. I think theirs was like a drip.

• 3:12:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, thirty minutes, sixty minutes.

• 3:12:54Joe Rogan?

  Something kooky like that, yeah.

• 3:12:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and there's a group in Switzerland. Uh, John Dean at UC San Diego is gonna start one. Uh, so there's at least three around the world.

• 3:13:06Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. It's a real place that you can go to, and that's what's nuts.

• 3:13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:13:12Joe Rogan?

  For people that never experienced anything and they're teetotallers their whole life.

• 3:13:17Joe Rogan?

  It sounds crazy. I know it sounds crazy.

• 3:13:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, what do you think of the beings? Do you think the beings are are outside of us?

• 3:13:26Joe Rogan?

  Do you think they're disembodied souls?

• 3:13:28Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:13:28Joe Rogan?

  Or do you think they're inside us all the time? Well, if they're inside us all the time, then we're everything. Then inside of us is just somehow connected to everything. It's we're not individuals at all. We are everything. We're all of us are everything. If if they are inside of us, and they may be inside of us, it might might all it might be the idea of like a physical boundary is just nonsense. Like, who gives a fuck where it's from? It's all everywhere, all the time. You just don't have access to it right now. You don't have access to it in your default state. Because your default fundamental state is a primate. You know, but it's in there. And occasionally you have access to it. You have access to it near-death experiences. You have access to it holotropic breathing.

• 3:14:12Joe Rogan?

  But if you had access to it all the time, you wouldn't be able to exist in this barbaric state that you live in.

• 3:14:17Speaker 02

  Well, I think it has to do with the dose. I mean, if it's really high. If if the levels are really high in the brain and the mind, yeah. You know, uh, this could be just a DMT simulation. I'm not the first one.

• 3:14:30Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 3:14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:14:31Joe Rogan?

  It could be.

• 3:14:32Speaker 02

  In which case there still is cause and effect.

• 3:14:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, just imagine a world where this wasn't reality, but then you got to experience this. It would be completely psychedelic. It'd be like, what is this fucking crazy world?

• 3:14:43Speaker 02

  It'd be different, yeah. It's the 3D and the shadow people.

• 3:14:46Joe Rogan?

  Just, do you know how weird it is sometimes if you just stand on a corner and watch people just walking and looking at their phones?

• 3:14:54Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, well, there's a lot of

• 3:14:57Joe Rogan?

  Kidnapped and they don't even know it.

• 3:14:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a lot of that here.

• 3:15:01Joe Rogan?

  Everywhere.

• 3:15:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:02Joe Rogan?

  Everywhere.

• 3:15:04Speaker 02

  Well, I moved back to Albuquerque last year.

• 3:15:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah?

• 3:15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, fourteen years in Gallup was plenty.

• 3:15:10Joe Rogan?

  Nice.

• 3:15:11Speaker 02

  So, it's cool being in civilization.

• 3:15:13Joe Rogan?

  Better, like it?

• 3:15:14Speaker 02

  I do.

• 3:15:14Joe Rogan?

  Nice.

• 3:15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have a front lawn and a back lawn.

• 3:15:17Joe Rogan?

  There you go.

• 3:15:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Albuquerque's home to some of the greatest mixed martial arts fighters ever.

• 3:15:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:23Joe Rogan?

  John Jones lives in Albuquerque.

• 3:15:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:15:25Joe Rogan?

  Greatest of all time.

• 3:15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love New Mexico.

• 3:15:27Joe Rogan?

  Shout out to Albuquerque. Jackson Winklejohn in the house.

• 3:15:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love New Mexico. That's great.

• 3:15:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a crazy state with a rich history and beautiful landscape. Oh, my God. I have a friend who just got back from elk hunting there. He was raving about how gorgeous it was out there.

• 3:15:45Speaker 02

  Ah, the sky is great. We have a pretty cool governor. Before she was governor, she was the Secretary of Health.

• 3:15:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh, cool.

• 3:15:54Speaker 02

  You know, during, during COVID. So, you know, she knows public health.

• 3:15:58Joe Rogan?

  And she's a nice lady.

• 3:15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:15:59Joe Rogan?

  You like her?

• 3:15:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16:00Joe Rogan?

  Beautiful. Um, thanks for being here, man. It was a lot of fun. It always is. It's always great to see you. It's been great to be your friend all, all these years.

• 3:16:08Speaker 02

  Oh, yes, man.

• 3:16:09Joe Rogan?

  It's great to see you healthy.

• 3:16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's great. Yeah, same. You look, you know, pretty wonderful yourself.

• 3:16:14Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 3:16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Um, is my DMT and the Soul of Prophecy?

• 3:16:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's right here.

• 3:16:20Speaker 02

  There it is, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it, it, um, it's pretty old.

• 3:16:24Joe Rogan?

  Hold that sucker up. See if people can buy it.

• 3:16:26Speaker 02

  Um, it came in, um, it came out in 2014. Yeah, it's, um, you know, what's the soul of prophecy? Is it the visions or is the, is it the message?

• 3:16:36Joe Rogan?

  So, um, and then there's the other books that are available. DMT, the Spirit Molecule, which is what got me into you in the first place. What a great cover, too, that Alex Gray artwork.

• 3:16:44Speaker 02

  Well, you know, his artwork is on the second book, too.

• 3:16:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:16:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16:49Joe Rogan?

  Right, right.

• 3:16:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's Alex Gray as well.

• 3:16:51Joe Rogan?

  He's amazing. I mean, that guy, there's no one ever has captured the DMT state quite like him.

• 3:16:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:16:57Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 3:16:58Speaker 02

  He's pretty good.

• 3:16:59Joe Rogan?

  And it's just beautiful work, like his stuff, like, and that crazy chapel of sacred mirrors that he has now.

• 3:17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17:05Joe Rogan?

  The 3D printed, like, chapel.

• 3:17:08Speaker 02

  Do you have any, do you have any of his original art?

• 3:17:11Joe Rogan?

  No, no, not many.

• 3:17:12Speaker 02

  I've got the Spirit Molecule.

• 3:17:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 3:17:14Speaker 02

  It's so cool.

• 3:17:14Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 3:17:15Speaker 02

  It's, it's in the hallway. Yeah, it's good.

• 3:17:17Joe Rogan?

  He's been a sweet guy, though. I've, I've talked to him a few times. All right. Thank you very much. Thanks for being here.

• 3:17:22Speaker 02

  You too.

• 3:17:22Joe Rogan?

  Really appreciate you. Goodbye, everybody.

• 3:17:38Speaker 00

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