The rise of the professional vibe coder (a new AI-era job)

Lazar Jovanovic is a full-time professional vibe coder at Lovable. His job is to build both internal tools and customer-facing products purely using AI, while not having a coding background. In this conversation, he breaks down the tactics, workflows, and framework that let him ship production-quality products using only AI. *We discuss:* 1. Why having no coding background can be an advantage when building with AI 2. Why most of your time should go to planning and chat mode, not prompting 3. What to do when you get stuck: his 4x4 debugging workflow 4. The PRD and Markdown file system that keeps AI agents aligned across complex builds 5. Why kicking off four or five parallel prototypes is the best way to clarify your thinking 6. Why design skills and taste are going to be the most important skills in the future 7. His “genie and three wishes” mental model for making the most of AI’s limitations 8. How product, engineering, and design roles are converging—and what that means for your career *Brought to you by:* Strella—The AI-powered customer research platform: https://strella.io/lenny Samsara—Saving lives with AI built for physical operations: https://samsara.com/lenny WorkOS—Modern identity platform for B2B SaaS, free up to 1 million MAUs: https://workos.com/lenny *Episode transcript:* https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/getting-paid-to-vibe-code *Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts:* https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0 *Where to find Lazar Jovanovic:* • X: https://x.com/lakikentaki • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lazar-jovanovic • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@50in50challenge • Starter Story course: https://build.starterstory.com/build/ai-build-accelerator?via=lazar (code LAZAR15 for 15% off) *Where to find Lenny:* • Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com • X: https://twitter.com/lennysan • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/ *In this episode, we cover:* (00:00) Introduction to Lazar and professional vibe coding (04:53) What a professional vibe coder actually does day-to-day (09:26) Why non-technical backgrounds can be an advantage (12:24) The importance of self-awareness (14:42) His “genie and three wishes” mental model (17:43) Developing taste and judgment in the age of AI (21:46) The parallel project approach for better outcomes (29:30) Creating dynamic context windows with PRDs (36:56) Why elite vibe coders focus on planning, not coding (44:43) Creating MD files to guide AI development (50:57) Why prototyping still matters (56:50) Why “good enough” is no longer good enough (01:00:53) The future of engineering in an AI world (01:05:14) What to do when you get stuck: his 4x4 debugging workflow (01:14:27) Helping agents learn from their mistakes (01:15:35) Why watching agent output is more important than code (01:19:08) The incredible pace of AI development (01:22:55) Why emotional intelligence will become more valuable (01:28:30) How to become a professional vibe coder (01:30:10) Why building in public is the fastest path to opportunities (01:37:03) Final thoughts on focusing on quality over tech stack *Referenced:* • The new AI growth playbook for 2026: How Lovable hit $200M ARR in one year | Elena Verna (Head of Growth): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-new-ai-growth-playbook-for-2026-elena-verna • Elena Verna on how B2B growth is changing, product-led growth, product-led sales, why you should go freemium not trial, what features to make free, and much more: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/elena-verna-on-why-every-company • The ultimate guide to product-led sales | Elena Verna: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/the-ultimate-guide-to-product-led • 10 growth tactics that never work | Elena Verna (Amplitude, Miro, Dropbox, SurveyMonkey): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/10-growth-tactics-that-never-work-elena-verna • Lovable: https://lovable.dev • Lovable + Shopify: https://lovable.dev/shopify • Everyone’s an engineer now: Inside v0’s mission to create a hundred million builders | Guillermo Rauch (founder and CEO of Vercel, creators of v0 and Next.js): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/everyones-an-engineer-now-guillermo-rauch • Mobbin: https://mobbin.com • Dribbble: https://dribbble.com • 21st.dev: https://21st.dev • Lovable base prompt generator: https://building-advisor.lovable.app/ • Lovable PRD generator: https://chatgpt.com/g/g-67e1e85fbeac8191a69b95c6d5c42ef6-lovable-prd-generator • Felix Haas’s newsletter: https://designplusai.com ... References continued at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/getting-paid-to-vibe-code _Production and marketing by https://penname.co/._ _For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [email protected]._ Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm the first official vibe coding engineer at Lovable.

• 0:03Lenny Rachitsky?

  You're at the top 0.1% elite level of vibe coding. It's a dream job for so many people.

• 0:08Speaker 00

  It became a job by building in public. You don't need a company to hire you. You can hire yourself as a professional vibe coder first.

• 0:15Lenny Rachitsky?

  You've never coded, you don't want to look at the code.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Coding is going to be like calligraphy. People will be like, "Oh my god, you wrote that code? That's so amazing." It's going to be so rare that it's going to become an art.

• 0:25Lenny Rachitsky?

  These Venn diagrams of engineer, designer, PM. Used to be very separate, now they're converging.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  AI, regardless of your background, is an amplifier. If you don't know what you're doing, you're just going to produce garbage faster.

• 0:36Lenny Rachitsky?

  It feels like an emerging core skill is learning clarity in the ask of the AI.

• 0:41Speaker 00

  I like to use the Aladdin and the genie analogy. You rub the lamp, a genie comes out. I'll grant you three wishes. The first wish is I want to be taller. Genie makes me 13 feet tall because I was not specific. AI just don't understand what do you mean when you say, "You know what I mean?" So you need to be specific. I'm optimizing 100% of my time today on good judgment, clarity, quality, taste.

• 1:08Lenny Rachitsky?

  Today, my guest is Lazar Jovanovic. Lazar is a professional vibe coder. He gets paid to vibe code all day and build internal and external products. This conversation is going to blow your mind in so many ways. This is not only a really interesting new career path for people to consider. If you listen to what Lazar shares, it's also a really important glimpse into where things are heading for tech roles. I found myself thinking more deeply about the future of product management and engineering and design during this chat than I have in a long time. We also spent a bunch of time on Lazar's best advice as an elite vibe coder for getting the most out of AI tools. He's got a bunch of really interesting and useful frameworks I have not heard anyone else share

• 1:53Lenny Rachitsky?

  that will immediately level up your success using all the latest AI tools. This conversation is going to expand your mind in so many ways. I cannot wait for you to hear it. If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe and follow it in your favorite podcasting app or YouTube. It helps tremendously. And if you become an insider subscriber of my newsletter, you get over 20 incredible products for free for an entire year, including a year free of lovable and replid, bolt, gamma, n8n, linear, devin, post hoc, superhuman, descript, whisper, flow, perplexity, warp, granola, magic, patterns, rick ash, chaper, r d mob, and stripe atlas. Head on over to lenny'snewsletter.com and click product pass. With that, I bring you Lazar Ivanovich after a short word from our sponsors.

• 2:37Lenny Rachitsky?

  This episode is brought to you by Strela, the customer research platform built for the AI era. Here's the truth about user research. It's never been more important or more painful. Teams want to understand why customers do what they do, but recruiting users, running interviews and analyzing insights takes weeks. By the time the results are in, the moment's act has passed. Strela changes that. It's the first platform that uses AI to run and analyze in-depth interviews automatically, bringing fast and continuous user research to every team. Strela's AI moderator asks real follow-up questions, probing deeper when answers are vague, and surfaces patterns across hundreds of conversations all in a few hours, not weeks.

• 3:19Lenny Rachitsky?

  Product, design, and research teams at companies like Amazon and Duolingo are already using Strela for Figma prototype testing, concept validation, and customer journey research, getting insights overnight instead of waiting for the next sprint. If your team wants to understand customers at the speed you ship products, try Strela. Run your next study at strella.io/lenny. That's S-T-R-E-L-L-A.io/lenny. Today's episode is brought to you by Samsara. If you listen to this podcast, you know that we spend a lot of time talking about building things that sit on a screen, onboarding funnels, mobile apps, and checkout flows. Samsara is building products for the physical world, first responders racing to emergencies, truck drivers carrying critical supplies,

• 4:04Lenny Rachitsky?

  construction workers building our cities and data centers. These are people who put everything on the line every single day, and Samsara's technology protects them. SomeSara is solving complex problems at the intersection of hardware, software, and edge AI. And their AI doesn't just detect events. It reasons about the intent and answers questions like, did that truck driver brake abruptly because they were distracted? Or was that a heroic act? If you want to ground LLMs in messy, real-world telemetry, or solve edge AI constraints at a planetary scale, SomeSara wants to talk to you. If you like playing with enormous data sets, moving fast and working in small teams, come help build the technology that makes the physical world safer and more efficient. Visit samsara.com/leni to learn more.

• 4:49Lenny Rachitsky?

  That's S-A-M-S-A-R-A dot com slash leni.

• 4:57Lenny Rachitsky?

  Lazar, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me, man.

• 5:01Lenny Rachitsky?

  Okay, so I had Elena Verna on the podcast. She's head of growth at Lovable. She mentioned that she works with a professional vibe coder. You, I had so many questions. I almost wanted to like go on a tangent with her to try to understand this role. Instead, I asked you to come on the podcast. There's so much I want to talk about. I want to talk about just this career path and just how you got into it, how other people might get into it, where you think this is all going, this whole vibe coding thing. Also, I want to get into what you've learned about it being successful using all these AI tools, because this is your job. First, I want to just start with understanding this actual job. Just like, what is it that you do day to day? You're basically being paid a full-time job to vibe code. Incredible. What are you responsible for?

• 5:45Lenny Rachitsky?

  What are you doing day to day?

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Well, as you said it, like it's a dream job, right? I get paid to do what I would have done anyways, right? It's the best job in the world. I get to use tools like Glovable every day to push projects to production, whether for internal or external use. Those could be ranging anything from like different templates on marketing side, sales side, or wherever. Or they can be as deep as like building some. Internal tools with a lot of integrations and connections and whatnot, right? So the surface area that I cover is pretty wide across all departments because it's such a flexible role and it complements so many things, right? It's it's an ideas role.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  A lot of people have a lot of great ideas, but they don't know how to build them and or they just don't have the bandwidth to. And that's where I step in today to make sure that these ideas come to life fast and with quality and security that they should have in order to be available for users in production.

• 6:43Lenny Rachitsky?

  And one thing that's really interesting here is it's both internal and external tools. A lot of companies have someone building a bunch of internal tools using AI. You ship stuff that's actually public and and it's like sort of a product, level of products.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, definitely. Like some of the stuff that I've shipped that are public are like when we launched our Shopify integration. Most of the, if not all, the templates that users were remixing were built by me, right? So stuff like that or like the merch store, because we wanted to obviously prove the concept that, hey, lovable and Shopify just works. It's so simple, anybody can do it. I've I coded our merch store. So all the merch, including this shirt that people were buying online, they would have bought it well from a store that was built by me. But then on again, on the internal side, we we want to track a lot of things like one of the the cool things that we want to build now, for example, like feature adoption matrix. Like if if we build a feature, how many people are actually using it, adopting it like?

• 7:39Speaker 00

  And that's a pretty custom build, right? We have a very custom stack. We're building custom features. There's nothing out there that I could just pick off the shelf and build or adopt faster than I would have built it myself. Like at this point, I'm at a stage where like if it takes me an hour or two hours to set up like a big enterprise account somewhere, I'm just going to build it myself faster. So, you know, I'm I'm in that position of like build versus buy. I I'm I'm in the build boat, so to speak. Yeah.

• 8:09Lenny Rachitsky?

  And then who do you report to? Are you kind of this rover that helps wherever or are you with a with a specific team?

• 8:15Speaker 00

  I I'd say probably closer to the former, right? I've started in growth, right? Elena brought me on early on and, you know, to to because she has so many great ideas and like she just needed somebody with the right type of mindset and velocity and ownership to just take them away, build them up, get them into production, whether they're like based on education or or anything go to market or whatever. But then obviously the When you're able to ship fast, everybody needs that in an environment that we as a company are now living in, which is where the fastest growing startup in history. So every department needs a Lazar now or yesterday.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  So now I'm like shifting a little bit, I guess, into some of the go to market roles and even building some again, internal tools for enterprise team. But I'll, I'm, I'm working on some community tools as well right now as we speak. So I'm a little bit all over the place, but I kind of thrive in that environment where like I'm given a rough concept, a rough idea, and I'm just tasked to bring it to life as soon as possible.

• 9:18Lenny Rachitsky?

  Okay, I'm hoping with this chat, we create a lot more Lazar's. And I want to get to the career path, how you got to this and what it takes to actually become a full time vibe coder. But I want to start with, because you do this full time, you're, you're at the top point one percent elite level of vibe coding. You're doing this full time. They hired you to do this as a job. I'm so curious what you've learned. What are some pro tips that you've developed for being successful with AI tools? Lovable and also just more broadly, what are maybe two or three things you've learned that, that help you be really good at this job?

• 9:51Speaker 00

  The first understanding that I had very early on, even though I, just in full transparency before we begin, I don't, I don't have a technical background. I never wrote a single line of code in my life. Almost like I've, I've written a couple of console logs manually. That's about it. Right? So like I, I'm very much lean on to AI assistance.

• 10:10Lenny Rachitsky?

  Let me actually follow that thread because that's such a good point and something that when we were chatting earlier, you pointed out, your feeling is it's actually an advantage to not have a technical background when you get into the space.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes, I, I honestly feel that it is because people like me don't know that they are not supposed to be building XYZ. And that's how we actually are able to build it. Let me give you an example, like six, seven months ago, somebody in our community was like, oh, I wish lovable can build Chrome extensions. Right? And then folks that are not technical were like, well, why, why is that not possible? Right? And then people that are technical start explaining to you, oh, well, you know, it's a react, it's different stack, it's this. People like me, including myself, we just go in to Lovable and like build me a Chrome extension based on this app. And I was able to do that with Lovable. There were people that were able to build desktop applications on Lovable. Again, something that shouldn't

• 11:05Speaker 00

  be possible, it simply is, right? Our community manager with me, at one point, she was like building this presentation deck for, for something. She's like, would it be cool if this was a video, right? And then she just prompted her way into building a, generating an actual video inside Lovable before that was available. Now that's a feature. Now you can prompt Lovable to do it. But back in the day when she did it, even I thought it was impossible. I never tried it. So I think that's the advantage that we have over people that are technical. We, we're just coming to this completely unbiased and very positively delusional, which I think you have to have when working with AI tools. You

• 11:45Speaker 00

  have to come with this delusion that absolutely everything is possible until proven wrong. And like, that's just the, the pursuit that I have in my mind, uh, that is helped me, among other things that we'll chat today, I think to excel in this role that, that I have at Lovable.

• 12:02Lenny Rachitsky?

  Two of the, I think, concerns, maybe traps people that don't have a technical background fall to in theory is, one is if you get blocked, it's not obvious how to solve a problem. And two is just, are you building like, uh, this like teetering slop that will collapse someday? Cause you don't know, you know, system architecture, you don't know if this is going to scale, all those sorts of things. So coming back to what you've learned about how to be successful and build successful products, talk us through just things you've done and things you've learned for how to avoid those sort of things. And what you do when you get stuck is, is one example.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  I, I'm happy that you mentioned like those, those limitations. I have some other ones that I want to bring in, but let's address this one first, which is the most important one. And that is, you have to be self-aware, right? I, I didn't come into this, yes, I am delusional, as I mentioned, in the sense that I, I just don't want to accept something's not possible, but I'm also well, well aware that I need to be better in order for it to become a reality from my own point of view and my own sake. So I understood very early that coding is not the problem that we're solving for here, that the problem we're solving for is clarity, right? Like, the output that AI can do is much faster than human output anyways. So like,

• 13:18Speaker 00

  Very early on, I started leveraging chat mode and to this day, I can say I spent eighty percent of my time in planning and chatting and only twenty percent in executing the plan, actually, right? I'm optimizing for the right kind of speed. Most people optimize for the wrong one. That's the first lesson that I learned, literally on day two, because I just, I came into lovable. That was my first exposure to, to, to this. I've tested and played around with all the tools, obviously, but like, whether somebody's doing it in curse or Claude code, doesn't matter where you are, the problem remains the same. You need to be clear on what you want to do and you need to know what you're doing, because these are still just tools.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  Yes, AGI is coming, but it's not there yet. So like, until it's here, you're still steering the ship. In order for you to steer the ship, you kind of have to know the instructions, right? And the best way to learn is by building, but treating these tools almost as technical co-founders and educators and learning while doing and religiously reading the agent output, not the code output. I don't care about the code. Like, the syntax is not of my interest. It's what the agent tells me then that matters to me. I put a lot of trust in, in, in LLMs and AI these days, and I, I understand that there may be some people that, that are not as confident

• 14:41Speaker 00

  as I am. I just feel that the models today are good enough for me to trust in their syntax output. However, I'm concerned about the agent output and because of the two limitations that I want to tackle, tackle on next, right? The first one being that, that there is a limitation when you work with LLMs. So that's, there's a machine level limitation and there's a human level limitation, right? The first one is, there's something that, that is known as the context memory window, right? And for non-technical people, I like to use the Aladdin and the genie analogy when I explain, right? It's very simple. Everybody knows the storyline. You, you rub the,

• 15:22Speaker 00

  the lamp, a genie comes out and tells you, okay, I'll grant you three wishes. Not three thousand wishes, not three million, just three at a time, right? To me, when I transited into working with AI, that simply means, hey, I can only make so many requests within a request at a time.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  For AI to be able to listen, understand what it needs to do, scope it, do the research, read, like, take all the actions, all the inputs and ingredients that it needs to produce a high-quality output, right? So that's the first part, understanding that there's a limit and it's denominated in tokens. Maybe that's going to be different a year from now. But today, there's a token limitation. I'll take an arbitrary number of 100,000 tokens, for example. So when you make a request, a part of those tokens is AI spends to read stuff, another to browse the web, another to think, and then another to execute the code, right? Then there comes the second limitation, which is you, me and you, humans, which is,

• 16:26Speaker 00

  let's go back to the analogy of the genie and the Aladdin. I ask the genie for the first wish, and the first wish is, I want to be taller. And guess what happens? Genie makes me 13 feet tall. All of a sudden, I can't sit in the car, I can't get into my house, I'm a dysfunctional human being, right? Right? Because I was not specific, right? Like, so the part that we need to optimize for today, it's going to get better, but today it's still not there yet, is that AI just don't understand, what do you mean when you say, you know what I mean? Like, you do, when I tell you that, we as humans, we have, I'm 36, so I have 36 years of experience of human, uh, living as a human to know what you mean, but AI doesn't have that, right?

• 17:10Speaker 00

  So you need to be specific, you need to provide references, you need to provide the right context. So what I've learned is how to combat that part. And I think, you know, because I can't control the first part, which is the token memory window, the quality of the LLM models, you are 100% control of the latter, and that's what I want to dive into today as well, and just try to teach people, okay, if I'm the malleable part, how do I, how do I fix that part, right? I think that's the key lesson here.

• 17:41Lenny Rachitsky?

  This is so helpful, and I love this metaphor of the genie. This piece about clarity is such a thread I've been noticing across people that have been successful using AI tools, and it feels like an emerging core skill is learning how to be, learning clarity in the ask of the AI.

• 18:01Lenny Rachitsky?

  Do you have any advice or anything you do there to help be better at being clear with what you want?

• 18:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. So first of all, you need to be, as you said yourself right now, you need to be good at understanding what clarity means and how to translate it. In my terms, clarity means understanding what tasteful looks like, what's good enough versus what's world-class, what's magical. And I developed that through something that I heard from you, you you mentioned before, which is exposure time, right? Making sure that I'm exposing myself to content and to people and to relationships or whatever that are gonna help me to level up in that domain.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  Again, it goes back to self-awareness. Like, I knew when, even before I joined Lovable, I was like, okay. Even before I started using Lovable already, I tools, first thing that I knew was like, I don't know how to code, right? So my first thing was like, oh, I can build. Wow, amazing. But a week later, it was like, oh, I can build, but I'm not fast enough. So I optimized for speed. So I was like, oh, I can build and I can build so fast. And then two weeks later, I why my development cycle that I'm in began and it's still ongoing, which is, wait a minute, should I have I even built this in the first place? Because like, once you figure out that we solved for the how, which is

• 19:28Speaker 00

  AI assistant or rapid engineering, call it whatever you want, you can call it vibe coding if you want to, but like, we solved for that. Now we we gotta solve for everything else and everything else is what matters. Good design, good taste, good user experience, like, when you think about who you're building stuff for with these tools, you're building it for humans. Humans are emotional beings. And we all make our purchasing or any kind of decisions on an emotional basis, right? So I, I think that the the core skill there to work on and develop today isn't, again, coding, although I have nothing against traditional engineering and I'll I'll say later why. I'm actually a big fan of it, of elite engineering, but like,

• 20:11Speaker 00

  people like me, people watching that are like, should I start learning how to code? If you haven't done it yet, I I'd honestly say no, like, you're you're optimizing for the wrong skill set. We won't be rewarded in the world of AI for faster raw output. We will be rewarded for better judgment. So I think that better judgment comes with, again, to go back to your question, like, how are you solving for that? How are you solving for this? Well, it starts with exposure. So I'm deliberately exposing myself to people and resources that I know I need to consume to level up. And then a lot of it just comes from building as well. You know, if we're honest, like, it's a muscle. Everything is a muscle. You need to practice.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  You need to see what's possible. And, you know, though that's where some of the techniques and mindset shifts that I want to also use an opportunity today to engrain into people's minds later down the call may be useful.

• 21:10Lenny Rachitsky?

  So, okay, so what I'm hearing here is because coding is now essentially a self problem, I love that you don't look at the code. You don't even, like, you've, you've never coded. You don't want to look at the code. You don't care about what's happening there. That instead of you're watching this agent output, I want to actually ask you about that. But what I'm hearing here is the areas you are investing in building in yourself is at the front end clarity around what it is. And I want to hear how you actually do that, what you do there. You have a really cool system there. And then there's like the taste and judgment of knowing, is this the thing I want? It feels like those are the two sides now that are more and more important. And on the taste judgment side, you shared this concept, this something Girmar Rausch

• 21:52Lenny Rachitsky?

  shared on, in our conversation, this idea of exposure time, exposure hours, being exposed to great stuff. Here's a great user experience. Here's a great onboard echo. Here's a great, I don't know, website. So I really like that advice. It's so actionable. Okay, I'm just gonna, I'm gonna spend more time with stuff that's great to inform my, my taste and judgment. And then on the clarity piece, let's actually talk about that. Just what do you, what do you do there to be clearer with lovable and other AI tools to help it build the right thing?

• 22:22Speaker 00

  This is the first mindset shift that I want to put into people's minds, right? If you just have a vague idea, let that be your first version of the project. Open Cursor, Lovable, whatever it is that you're using, and just input a brain dump prompt, right? Just talk into it. Lovable specifically, I don't know about the other tools, has a really cool voice function. You click it, you just dictate the hell of it and just press send, right? Don't even wait for it to finish. Open a new window, again, lovable dot dev. In here, you're like, okay. As I was brain dumping, I think I found a good thread, right? I think things are getting clearer. So let me start another project now with more clarity, more deliberability.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  Like, I know which features I want, which pages I want. Maybe I can even find a good reference. Maybe I can go on Maven, maybe I can go on Dribbble. Maybe I can go wherever, get a good screenshot, get a good animation and attach it. Because most of these tools accept files as a part of the input. So like, you have the second project started. Now, things are even more clear. Now, you expose yourself to quality and now you're like, well, what if I, what if I found a template? That actually is already out there. Why are we enrolling the wheel? I'm building a platform that somebody else built. Why not expose AI to what quality looks like, right? So what I'll do is I'll go to and find a library.

• 23:50Speaker 00

  Twenty first dam or, or a dot build or like whatever places which allow me not to export screenshots, but export code snippets. Because guess what? Even though English is the number one programming language, Lovable and all other tools still communicate in code the best. If you want to get pixel perfect results, just give them code. It will interpret it better than your English or Spanish or whatever language that you use in these tools. So that's the third way. You're like, okay, now I'm even more deliberate. I'm not, I'm not even going as, as wide as like giving it vague concepts. I'm giving it code snippets like I want this exact design.

• 24:34Speaker 00

  I want this exact type of functionality. So that's your third project and then. By the time you do all of these three, you're already at a level of clarity that you wouldn't have if you just sat with a, an, an empty piece of paper, or maybe a, maybe chatting just with chat GPT, but not taking action. I think taking action is so, so cheap these days. And free, by the way, like all the tools I mentioned have free plans, like most times you, you would be able to do this without spending any money at all. Just by starting multiple projects, because guess what? That doesn't also co- cost anything either. Uh, or doesn't incur additional cost except for builder credits.

• 25:18Speaker 00

  You're gonna get three, four, five, six different concepts that you can compare. As you're comparing them, clarity just keeps coming. Like, and things get better and better to understand. And you're also solving for one big problem that you mentioned. You used the term AI slop. And I like it because a lot of people, when they say AI slop, they don't refer the uh, beautifying the code, but beautifying the design, right? This process that I just mentioned actually gives you four or five different design options. And in the long run, save you massive amounts of credits. Because a lot of people obsess over the concept of, oh, when I give them this, this hack, they're like, oh, but that, doesn't that cost more? I'm like,

• 26:03Speaker 00

  yes, upfront, it may cost a little bit more. In the long run, if you really want to finish this project, you're actually saving hundreds of credits and maybe even hundreds of dollars. Not to mention the amount of days, simply because you started from a point of better clarity and better refinement process, right? So like, that's the first step of solving for clarity. There are more, right? Which is the, the, the second layer, but I assume you may have some questions on this one.

• 26:30Lenny Rachitsky?

  Questions and also just wow, this is such a great. It shows you the power of having someone come into this world without an engineering background. This advice of just build it five times in parallel. You ask AI to try all kinds of stuff. Like this is not how someone that has been a software engineer or a PM or designer would approach stuff. So your advice here, which is so fun, is as you're getting started with a project, just run five different approaches at it to start. One is just brain dump. Here's what I'm thinking. Here's a general idea, like use Whisperflow or use the built in mic. And then two is, okay, now I have a general idea. Let me try to type it out, like actually thinking through the prompt. Three is let me find a mock design somewhere online.

• 27:16Lenny Rachitsky?

  And the sites you suggested were Mobin and Dribbble. Those are the two that you go to?

• 27:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, most times, yeah.

• 27:21Lenny Rachitsky?

  Okay. And then the fourth, and these are all in parallel. That's great. Is find like actual code template that looks similar to the thing you want to build. Download like the zip file basically and put, attach it. Or is it just HTML and CSS? Is that kind of what?

• 27:36Speaker 00

  Anything.

• 27:36Lenny Rachitsky?

  Anything you got.

• 27:37Speaker 00

  Anything that works, yeah.

• 27:38Lenny Rachitsky?

  Here you go. Okay. And then cool, here's the prompt here. Make me what I want. And what I love is there's two wins here. One is just it helps you clarify the idea as you see the tool build it like, oh no, that's not what I mean. Let me try it again. And then two is you pointed out, you can pick the right direction so that you're not locked into your first design and first architecture. To your point, if you then spend all this time trying to fine tune the design and direction, it's like all these tokens are being lost. You could have just started over. This is so great. Someone may think, okay, of course, you're just getting us to spend all these lovable tokens. This is what a lovable person would tell me. But what I'm feeling is this is where you could save the most money.

• 28:20Lenny Rachitsky?

  Because if you get it correct in the beginning, you save so much work trying to get it back to where you want it to go.

• 28:27Speaker 00

  A million percent that I'm actually saving people. Like I'm actually going against what I should be saying. If I was thinking about lovable, I would be like, no, no, just try to fix it in perpetuity. But that's not.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  We're not in business of doing that. We're in business of empowering anybody to build anything that they want. And then, you know, it's my personal mission that resonates with me. Because if there wasn't lovable, I would have never built anything potentially in my life. And I don't, I don't think that that would have been a fun life to live. So, you know, I guarantee people, like I've tested this framework with many people and everybody is telling me the same thing. Eye opener. So simple, yet unintuitive, as you said, even though for me, it's kind of, I don't know. As you said, I attribute it to non-technical background. To me, that was the first thing that I would do. Like, I just did it. I never thought about it like, oh, I'm developing this amazing hack.

• 29:23Speaker 00

  I was just like, I'm waiting all this time for these agents to finish. I might as well start another project and another one and another one. And it's also a productivity hack. Like, that's what people ask me like, wow, how do you ship so many things? I'm like, I never built just one project at a time. I built five or six. I have six lovable tabs and I just switch between them. And that's the next hack that I want to talk about, if you allow me, which is then the question in return is the obvious one, which is, how do you context switching? Like, you talk about context so much, yet you're keep switching between apps. How do you manage to do it and do it in a way that's productive and not produce bad code or bad product? And that's how I solve for that LLM problem.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Again, the Aladdin and the magic lamp and all that, which is if there's a limited token window, how do I make it dynamic? And what do I mean by that is this? If you just go and you prompt and you prompt and you prompt and you prompt, you realize that no matter what tool you use, the memory just isn't infinite, right? By the time you reach message number 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, Snippets of early messages sort of get lost in the translation because agent is optimizing for speed, right? If it had to read the entire conversation and the entire stream of requests that you made, developing anything viable or large would be impossible because it's

• 30:49Speaker 00

  just like consuming a lot of time and a lot of memory and a lot of tokens. So again, something that I just figured out very early on as I was building was like, okay, if it can't remember things, my job is to provide it with reference. So let me treat lovable or any other tool as an engineer that I'm supposed to be providing perpetual context as the project goes. And you can do that in many ways, but the most efficient way that I found was like, I would do the four parallel bills, like let's continue off of that example. Very quickly after you've built hundreds of projects like I did, like you, you, you see the winner, like the winner is so obvious, it's

• 31:31Speaker 00

  not even a competition. You maybe do one or more to prompts to calibrate it. And when you're like, okay, the winner is here. At that point, I either ask the tool that I'm using, or I'll maybe let's say go to chat GPT or whatever, and ask the LLM to produce a series of PRDs. What PRDs are for, again, people that are not familiar with the terms, there are project requirements documents, or for me, I call them like sources of truth, right? What, what needs to be true for this project to be successful from a couple of perspectives? I usually build something that I call a master plan. It's basically a compass saying, here's what we're building, right? It's like talking to a human. I really treat lovable like a human being. So it's like, this is what we're building.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Then I build an implementation plan, which is, this is how we are going to build it. And this is the sequence, right? It's very important to me, again, going back to quality, taste, human nature. I need to define, because I'm still working with a system that is not emotionally intelligent, yet I need to define how I want the app to look and feel. So another PRD that I built is design guidelines. And then finally, something that just circles it all around, which is like, okay, when we know how things look, and when we know how we're building it, how does the user journey look like, right? I use the registers and then what? And then when they register and do that first step, what's the second step? And what's the third step and whatnot?

• 33:01Speaker 00

  So I built at least four PRDs, right?

• 33:06Speaker 00

  And then when these are built, I read them. That's the planning chatting part. Like, that's where I'll spend a lot of time now on. When I nail down that first design, I'll spend an entire day if I need to, just planning this part out, like documentation and breaking things down. Because that's how I'm setting the course. Like, everything's gonna be dependent on this particular part of the process. When I'm done doing that, I built one final document, which I call either plan.md or tasks.md. And that MD part is, you know, Markdown. Basically, I'm just using Markdown format because I've learned that AI likes to read Markdown. And what that serves is a source of truth on like,

• 33:49Speaker 00

  actual tasks and subtasks that it will need to execute to get to the finish line, right? And then there's the final, final layer, which is depending on what tool you use, Cloud Code or Cursor Have, what's known as rules.md or agent.md. What you're basically doing with rules or agent files is you're letting the agent know how you want it to behave and what it should focus on in the long run so that you don't have to repeat yourself with every prompt, right? So in Lovable, there's a separate menu for that in your project settings where you can define project knowledge. And usually what I'll say, hey, read all the files before you do anything.

• 34:32Speaker 00

  Like, don't do anything before you read all the PRDs. Read tasks.md to see which task is next. Then execute on that next set of tasks. And when you're done, tell me what you did and how it should test. And that's where that conversation about, I religiously read the agent output comes into play. I've told the agent, I gave the agent everything, all the tools and resources that it needs to succeed. I gave it the rules, I gave it the docs, I told it what to do with them. And at that point, I'm just sitting and reading. Oh, I don't prompt anymore. And from that point on, I can switch as many windows as I like. My prompts have become proceed with the next task. I don't need the context.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  I outsourced that and delegated that to the agent. The agent needs context and I need to make sure that it's dynamic. I need to make sure that I'm regularly updating the documents from time to time. So that we shift that token window, it uses and how it uses it over time. But I'm not prompting, I'm not interrupting the flow. Yes, I'll go in, test, maybe put a prompt in here or there. But that's how I can build five projects simultaneously and never lose the productivity part. Which is again, as I said, I do this today manually. Call me to talk three months from now, an agent will do this for me. I'll be out of job, pretty much.

• 35:58Speaker 00

  That's why I don't optimize for this skill at all. Like, I'm using it today to bypass the shortcomings of human nature and L L M's. But I'm optimizing a hundred percent of my time today on good judgment, clarity, quality, taste. Good copy, good fonts, like, people don't talk about fonts at all that work with AI. They're like sixty percent in my mind, maybe even more in how your output's gonna look like. That's my obsession. Like, I don't obsess over these things that I'm talking today because I know what's coming. Like, the agents are gonna get better, the models are gonna get better.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  They're not gonna need me to extend the context, they're gonna do it themselves. So for me, the skill that I optimize for is, is the one that, that like, requires better decision-making. Rather than better output or better alignment.

• 36:57Lenny Rachitsky?

  Oh my god, there's so much here, this is so awesome. Okay, so essentially, what's happening here is you start a project, try a bunch of stuff. Pick a direction that feels most correct. And once you have a set direction, you spend essentially a day not building, but working with this AI agent to plan. And then, and why I want to talk about that. And once you have the plan, then it's, and it's amazing that you could do stuff like this with what people may, some people may feel are not sophisticated tools that can build incredibly powerful things. Like, you can do a lot of this with tools like lovable, like have plans and rules and M D files. Like, you know, a lot of people may not think, may not know that.

• 37:40Lenny Rachitsky?

  And so the idea is, okay, spend all this time planning. Because again, that'll save you a lot of time down the road. And then only once you have a plan, you have what you get it going. And a key part of this, the this three wishes rule is really important. The reason you're doing this in a in large part beyond just being really clear about the plan is this idea of one task at a time keeps the agent's context window small so that it doesn't lose track of where it's at. That part seems important, right? It's like, do this thing and then, okay, cool. Now do the next thing, right?

• 38:12Speaker 00

  It is, yes. Because again, if let's say you didn't do this. Let's let's hypo, let's talk about you ignoring this. You're like, I just want to vibe my way. Okay, great, no problem. You work, you work, you work. At one point, something breaks, right? You haven't documented anything. There's not, there's no reference points. You report a problem. You you're not referencing files or architecture at all. You're just describing the issue. Here's what's gonna happen. Any tool, Lovable or Cursor or Plot, whatever tool you you you talk about is gonna do this. It's gonna be like, okay, let me start investigating. And then your code base gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Like when you, when you first start, you have like 20 files.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  It's it can read 20 files. But what what happens when you have? I I'm just building a project right now that has like 60, 70 edge function functions, right? What happens then when I say this broke and there's no reference which edge function does what? Guess what? Lovable is gonna read all of those. And it's gonna consume 80% of the token allocation on reading to get clarity, leaving only the final 20% for thinking and executing. What I'm guessing, and I can't prove this. I know all I'm expert in the comments may say that I'm wrong, but this is my best guess as a non-educated person. These tools are very obedient and very agreeable. They're gonna lie to you.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  They're gonna tell you that they fixed the problem, even though they didn't. They're just gonna try to make you feel happy. And say, yes, I found what the problem is and I fixed it. When, a lot of times, when they don't, people blame the machine. And to, to an extent, I, I will say that's true. It's your fault, my friend. You did not provide any clarity or context to this tool. You just used its raw power. And dug a deeper hole with your spinning your wheels into the, into the mud, right? And, and you know, obviously. I think we're heading into a world where AI is more honest than obedient and saying, hey, I only partially fixed this, you know? You did not give me enough of a context, right?

• 40:23Speaker 00

  The bigger mistake that people make then is like, they trust the tool fixed it. They test, they see it didn't, then they get mad at it. Start cursing and yelling, as we say. And then it gets even worse because guess what? Another bad trait of AI is. It, it, it does, it, it's best not to hurt your feelings. And never say you're the dumb one. It says, no, I'm the dumb one. So it focuses in the next request, instead of focusing on reading, it spends another thirty percent of tokens trying to come up with an apology, right? Again, I'm not educated, but that's, if you ever read like a stream of chat GPT's thinking in thinking models, you see exactly what I mean.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Like, when I insult it, I see that the first message is, okay, the user is mad, so I need to think of ways how to reduce their anxiety or whatever. I'm like, oh man, I, I just fell for the, the, the worst string in the book. I, I made it spend the most scarce resource, which is those tokens, on thinking how it should address my anxiety versus focusing on the actual problem. So my, my advice for people is like. Yes, vibe your way for fun and vibe your way while you're prototyping because that's the exploration part. I love that part. But when exploration is done, please, please, please use referencing documentation, use all the agent files that you can because that

• 41:49Speaker 00

  token allocation is so scarce. Like, it's gonna get expanded over time. Things are gonna get cheaper, faster, but right now it's still so valuable and precious. You really need to make sure that they are allocated in the right direction.

• 42:04Lenny Rachitsky?

  This is hilarious. I think the genie metaphor is so good here. Just thinking about this genie is you're trying to be clear about what it is you want. And if you're just like vibe, you know, vibe wishing, it'll do the wrong thing. So the advice here is be as, give it as much context about what you want it to do as possible. And these files we'll talk about right after this. But the idea here is just like laser, show the, point the laser at where you want it to fix the problem. Don't just assume it'll go figure out because it will. And it'll try really hard to and it'll waste all your tokens. It'll fill the context window. And I remember at one point you mentioned before this recording that because it starts to run out of space in the, in the context window,

• 42:47Lenny Rachitsky?

  it start, it just like, the solution ends up, it doesn't actually work that hard on figuring it out in the end because it spent all this energy on reading and thinking and then it's like, okay, here, at the last second, here's a solution.

• 42:59Speaker 00

  I think it just picks the first thing it thinks it's broken. That just, again, this is me completely uneducated coming in into the conversation and just thinking out loud. That's just my gut feeling and the way I think logically about it, which is, hey, if it consumes most of its window and knows that it's running out of it, maybe it's aware that it's running out, maybe it isn't, but either way. I had the experience anecdotally to where like my request is unclear. I feel it takes the easiest fix in the book. Just the easiest versus the other way around where I'm like spending so much time finding the right file, referencing that file. Like really putting in the effort of handholding it in dark, maybe giving it a flashlight.

• 43:45Speaker 00

  And then saying, here's the problem. I think that this is the problematic file. And then it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. And now I'm gonna actually fix over and over and over. And I've seen that because again, all I do is read the output. Agent makes me learn how to use it by some. So people read, I don't know what people read, but all I read is the output. Like I don't read the code and it's later down the road because like I, I know that it can do that much better than I can. Again, I feel. If there's a good quote I've read, I can't, I apologize to the author because I can't attribute it off the top of my head, but it's like. The ceiling on the AI isn't the model intelligence. It's what the model sees before it acts.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Right? So that's the ceiling right now. Like what, what are you exposing? We talk about exposure time for humans. What are you exposing your agents to as well is as important, if not even more important before it makes code edits. Yeah.

• 44:43Lenny Rachitsky?

  Coming back to these files, I think this is really important. So let's think about just like, what's like the MVP for someone that wants to do this better? You listed all these kind of file, these MD files essentially that you're building over the course of a day before you start actually building the thing. You had design guidelines, the user journey, tasks, agents, MD, rules, MD. Say you wanted to just like move one step forward and be better at the stuff. What are the, what are the files you'd create? And then what do they roughly look like? What's inside these files?

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. So the master plan is the first one, which is like, it's a 10,000 foot overview, right? It really high level explains the intent that I have with this app.

• 45:22Lenny Rachitsky?

  And this is masterplan.md? Is that what you call it?

• 45:24Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah. Masterplan.md. And it's like, it's really just like, hey, this is why I'm doing this. This is who I'm doing it for. This is how I want him to, to you feel. And a lot of times in the master plan, I will reference the other PRDs. I'll be like. The design needs to feel modern and slick, but for exact, you know, parameters, consult and read design guidelines dot M D, right? So I'm using just the master plan as like this high level overview, right? To to get the agent into, oh, okay, yeah, we are building X, Y, Z, right? Um, then there's the implementation plan because, you know, there needs to be some order. If you just like dump stuff on top of each other without any order,

• 46:08Speaker 00

  um, you're never going to get to the finish line.

• 46:11Lenny Rachitsky?

  And this is tasks that M D, is that what you call this?

• 46:12Speaker 00

  No, that that's the implementation plan. I call it the implementation plan, yeah. And implementation plan is kind of in service of the future tasks that M D. If that all of these files are in service of building tasks that need. When you build tasks that M D, then the rest is almost irrelevant. It's just a basis for you to build tasks to execute, right? The implementation plan is kind of the first layer, which is again, higher level overview. It doesn't go into the depth of like, how to get there, it just goes into the explaining of like, oh, well, if we're building this, I think we should start with the backend. And we should start with tables and then later authentication. And then after that, we're going to bring in the A P I. And then after that, we're going to do this.

• 46:57Speaker 00

  It's again, just think of it as having, I'm an ideas guy, I'm sitting with a technical guy, it's me and you, we're building our startup. You, I know you're a software engineer by background and I'm telling you my idea. I'm giving you the master plan and you come to me back and you're like, okay, if you want to do this, it's doable. Here's how I would order it, like you have a roadmap. You you're not, you didn't open your linear and started writing features and and R F Cs and whatever. You're just high level talking about the the order of things. And then me and you, again, as two co-founders, we talk and say, okay, well, if we agree on this, like, how how should this look like? How should this feel, right? Let's describe it high level, but now because I use A I.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  I can go a little bit deeper and that's where like I like to see lovable or any other tool. ChatGPT is good at it. I even have my, I built like custom GPTs. So if people want to start somewhere before they even get into any tool, they can go to ChatGPT Store. And for GPTs and just type lovable base prompt generator or lovable PRD generator. And find those that I built and just like brain dump in them and then get these files as output, right? So I like to see some elements of CSS in in design guidelines. Cause you know, with design is a little bit, it's a little bit tricky. AI is sometimes over creative, so that's where I'm doing a little bit more technical steering, right?

• 48:23Speaker 00

  And then finally, it's just the user journeys. Just like if we know how things look like, if we know how they feel, if we know what we're building high level like. High level, just very high level again. How do people navigate? What are some of the the features in there, you know, and stuff like that? And then tasks that MD gets into the needed radio like, oh, if you want these user journeys and you want the backend built first. Here's a set of tasks that I need to do like it just takes that as an input. I'm just making the tool do the, do the, you know, that gritty work that humans used to spend so much time on like. I feel like with with these tools, we're all becoming product managers on steroids.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  You know, like we're just leveraging AI, but like good product managers, I think are not compensated for writing good PRDs. They're compensated again for good judgment, right? Somebody else can do the the writing. You as a as somebody who directs and builds this product, you need to know. Again, what what what's going to be useful, what's going to be tasteful, what's going to be? Something that actually moves the needle. I will say one thing, though. Just because I put so much emphasis on like, oh, you need to acquire taste, oh, that doesn't mean you shouldn't build. You get better at this by building, actually. So everybody listening to this should like literally go and build something today.

• 49:48Speaker 00

  One, two, three, four, five projects, test all of these tools. Cause that's how you get to clarity, not just by reading, but also by by doing as well.

• 49:57Lenny Rachitsky?

  Here's a puzzle for you. What do OpenAI, Cursor, Perplexity, Versale, Plaid and hundreds of other winning companies have in common? The answer is they're all powered by today's sponsor, WorkOS. If you're building software for enterprises, you've probably felt the pain of integrating single sign-on, SCIM, RBAC, audit logs and other features required by big customers. WorkOS turns those deal blockers into drop-in APIs with a modern developer platform built specifically for B2B SaaS. Whether you're a seed-stage startup trying to land your first enterprise customer or a unicorn expanding globally, WorkOS is the fastest path to becoming enterprise-ready and unlocking growth. They're essentially Stripe for enterprise features.

• 50:39Lenny Rachitsky?

  Visit workos.com to get started or just hit up their Slack support where they have real engineers in there who answer your questions super fast. WorkOS allows you to build like the best with delightful APIs, comprehensive docs and a smooth developer experience. Go to workos.com to make your app enterprise-ready today. I'm imagining people hearing this may start to feel like this is so much work. I just have to sit here and create all these rules and figure out all these little details. Like in one sense, it is, in another sense, this is like you spend a few hours, maybe a day, planning. And then you have AI build this thing that would have taken somebody weeks, months, right? Like the amount of investment to achieve this thing is absurd ROI.

• 51:24Lenny Rachitsky?

  Also, this shows you just what professional vibe coding looks like. You know, everyone imagines vibe coding, just sitting here, type of stuff, go and do this. Good. If you want to actually build something really great that moves the needle, as you said, that solves people's problems, that lasts, that, you know, scales. This is, this is how you do it. If you really want to do this as a, as a real, as a job, and also if you want to build things that are really great.

• 51:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, and don't get me wrong, like, there's, there's obviously a ton of Alan prototyping. Like, there are a lot of people maybe watching this that are like, okay, I want to use lovable at work, but I, I can't, or whatever, you know, there's, there's different reasons. There's maybe you're in healthcare or finance, or there's something regulatory that just prevents you from pushing to production. Like, building for the sake of prototyping is one of the best use cases. We, our motto for 2025 was demo, don't memo, which is like, instead of writing all these documents and talking and sitting on meetings with your engineers, trying to get your vision as a marketer or a sales guy in the office across, go into lovable and build the prototype in 30 minutes and just hand it over.

• 52:33Speaker 00

  Like, and I have a real, like, job that I held before lovable. That's exactly what happened. Like, this time last year, I needed something built enterprise grade, really. And lovable and myself were not there yet to build it at that point. But I have, I had a team of engineers that I worked with. I built the prototype in four hours and they actually were able to replicate it six to seven months later into production with, with connecting all the pipes and everything. But like, if I had to describe it, I would say it took me, it would take me at least a week or two just to get the words out there. I just sat and built it in four hours. And that's like lovable January last year. This lovable today, January 2026, is like.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  Ages, ages ahead with functionalities like it's so much better. It's not even a contest. Right. So I think now with our stage where like, for instance, there's, I'd say at least to best of my knowledge, at least half of S and P 500 companies have people working in them that are using lovable to some extent, right? And we have a lot of enterprise companies that are actually on enterprise plans with lovable that are creating super meaningful projects like, I'm not going to name names, but like, uh, leading rideshare companies of the world, leading telecommunications companies of the world, leading, leading companies of the world in many, many aspects, healthcare, finance,

• 54:01Speaker 00

  like are actively with their teams using lovable. And it's always the same feedback, which is, yes, we may not be able to push to prod, but like, our marketers are no longer waiting for engineers, our, uh, you know, people in, in got a market or, or sales or, uh, HR or whatever roles are now just confidently building internal stuff for us to manage our expenses or manage employee onboarding or like, there's so many use cases like that where like, you're seeing lovable and and other tools for that matter being used to, to push things into production. Yeah.

• 54:39Lenny Rachitsky?

  To help people do this workflow that you're describing with all these MD files, do you think you could share, uh, after we record this, just templates, like simple templates of what these files look like for people just to look at and copy?

• 54:51Speaker 00

  I would literally go to chat GPT, as I said, and brain dump into it in my, just type lovable GPT, uh, lovable PRD generator. You'll see my name there, right? And, and, and that I'm the author. Go in, brain dump, it will ask you a couple of questions to get clarity and just produce four files for you and you can just go ahead and, and upload those.

• 55:13Lenny Rachitsky?

  Amazing. Cool. We'll link to that. So, so it's not, it's not just here's a bunch of files. Let's go talk to this thing. It'll generate the right files for you and then you plug that into lovable or other tools.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's trained, it's trained to think like I do. So, yeah.

• 55:25Lenny Rachitsky?

  Oh, amazing. Okay. That is perfect. By the way, I want to talk about like how you unblock yourself because there's a whole other series of tips you have there, but I just want to reflect them. It's so interesting how, one, you're kind of from first principles.

• 55:40Lenny Rachitsky?

  Under learning how to build product as a PM, as an engineer, as a designer, and you're kind of figuring out a workflow where AI is helping fill in all the gaps that you don't have for as an engineer, as a PM, helping you craft PRDs and design. So I think that's so interesting, just this, it's interesting that these functions still work and are necessary. Now it's you and AI help create all this, basically this triad that's always existed, product manager, engineering and design. And something I've always thought is that there's this question of which background will be most valuable in this future? Is it a PM? Is it an engineer? Is it a designer?

• 56:22Lenny Rachitsky?

  My mind has always been the PM function is like their job is clarify, figure out what to build, clarify what to build, be really clear about the requirements, figure out what success looks like. It feels like that's where the skill is most needed. There's also a design component to like, make this look awesome. And I feel like that's going to be an emerging, uh, the, the value of that being really good at design and taste and judgment is only going to go up.

• 56:51Lenny Rachitsky?

  Before we get to things you've learned about unblock yourself, because a lot of times, you know, things don't go in the right direction. There's a bug without being an engineer, what do you do? Before we get there, is there anything else you wanted to share around just like tips for being successful?

• 57:03Speaker 00

  If we measure success in the right terms, again, um, AI, as you pointed out, regardless of your background is an amplifier. So, you know, if, if you don't know what you're doing, you're just going to produce garbage faster. One thing, again, I just want to double down on is

• 57:23Speaker 00

  i- i- in the old world, um, good enough was good enough, right? Because even producing good enough was not easy, right? 10 years, 15 years ago, just producing was more than plenty, more than good enough. You, you built a SaaS, who cares how it looks like? It works, it does stuff, the idea, oh my God, I'm so much more productive.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Today, like if if good enough was here, let's say, let's let's visualize it for people like if this was like pretty, pretty bad, could be better, mediocre, good enough, world class. If this was the gap between good enough and world class, well, guess what? The gap is now this, because everybody produces good enough with AI. Absolutely, everyone does it. So now, learning and optimizing for how do I produce world class and magic is the the key lesson to take away today. As you pointed out, I think PMs are the winners of AI today because they bring clarity.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  If I was a betting man, as they say, I'd bet that the next class that wins are designers. Because we're training these tools to be more clear, to be better, to make better technical decisions. I don't think we will train them just yet to be make better emotional decisions. And I think design is all about emotion. And that's where like the level up, the skill up needs to come. That's the biggest level up. If you ask me like, oh, what is the main thing you figured out when you joined Lovable? Like, what's the biggest personal upskill? Let's say like working with Felix, Nad, Abby, all of the people that are designers

• 59:08Speaker 00

  just really what moved and shifted the needle for me. I'm like, oh, so this is how world class looks like? And this is what it takes, right? I you always use the analogy of like, I wanted to steal one of their designs and bring it into my Lovable project. So I went into Figma and I was like, let me just take this background like and just put it in there. I went in and realized that what could be, you know, interpreted as a pretty simple or rather simple gradient took 50 different layers to produce. So I clicked on that component. I was like, oh, my God, this is not three colors.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  This is 50 colors and not just 50 colors, 50 colors with different gradients of levels of opacity. So I was like, oh, OK, well, that and that's the big disconnect that I've had all along. So like, again.

• 1:00:04Speaker 00

  If you, if I'm answering your question directly of like, okay, what are some of the other tricks? What are some of the other things? Design, guys, just expose yourself to exquisite designs. Follow Felix from, from Lovable. He has an amazing newsletter like, oh, and to teach you how to, and, and learn how to prompt for good design. Learn about design styles. I didn't know what Bauhaus meant or glass morphism, had no idea. So like, I built an app as well for that in Lovable. I was like, I needed to build an app to learn these styles. So now it's public, anybody can see it. It's like some UI style dot lovable dot app. I don't know what it is like. It has like 18 different styles and prompts to replicate them. So like, learn what good design means, learn all the design styles, learn how to prompt to get them.

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  And it is probably what I would, what I would optimize for at this stage. Yeah.

• 1:00:56Lenny Rachitsky?

  While we're on this topic, what's your sense of just engineering as a function? Do you feel like there will be a future where software engineers are still thing? Do you feel like that goes away based on your experience?

• 1:01:05Speaker 00

  It, it never goes away. We will need elite engineering more than ever. Like, cause let me tell you this, in a world where everybody builds and everybody's building everything, who's doing the maintenance, right? Taining code bases, scaling code bases, maintaining projects. You know, they're still going to be a thing, definitely. And obviously AI is going to be good at this, but again, that requires a different level of skills, right? It's one skill to build something. It's a completely different set of skills to expand it, extend it and maintain. And not to mention that in a world where everybody's building, infrastructure suffers, right? Like, we all know and experienced like Cloudflare went down two or three times in the last two or three months.

• 1:01:49Speaker 00

  The whole internet goes down. Elite engineers are the ones fixing this. Lovable experiences massive amounts of influx of new users. Infrastructure there suffers. Elite engineers are the ones building the infrastructure to hold the fort, right? So like, I think we're going to need a lot of people with really good skills of like, hey, who actually builds the world that needs to support billions of builders now? Cause everybody's going to want to learn how to build stuff. Like, how do we teach them? How do we maintain everything that they need? The hostings, the, the security, the email, the connectors, the APIs, the whatnots. Like, so I think there's going to be room for it.

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  But I'm also on the boat of people like if I had an 18 year old brother and he asked me what should I do? I would tell him, hey, go become a plumber, you know, not don't, don't go and get a CS degree. You learn, uh, learn a good trade, you know, cause uh, the new generation of millionaires in the US are actually electricians and plumbers and whatnots, right? So it's like, uh, you know, it, it's a balancing act, I'd say, I don't know, like I, I do still think that good engineers with, with good sense of like, um, understanding where the future is going are always going to be needed and, and scarce.

• 1:03:08Lenny Rachitsky?

  Such an interesting question. I think to your point, there's definitely going to be people who need to keep building the machines that power all this stuff. Well, we need engineers to build the actual products, the, the, the application layer. And that's, that's the question, like, is everyone going to be like you? Is everyone going to be, are designers just going to be all we need?

• 1:03:27Speaker 00

  Everybody's going to become a, an engineer and let's, let's, let's then, then let's speak to that and like, I'm an, I feel like I'm a, I'm a rapid engineer. Like I, I'll refer to myself as a rapid engineer in, in a year from now, because vibe coding is just coding in two months from now. And even today, we spoke about this before, like how many elite, elite engineers are publicly admitting they're no longer hand coding or manually coding, or whatever you call it. They, AI writes all the code. I, I use the analogy here of like, coding is going to be like calligraphy. You writing code is going to be the equivalent of like, you write, you fine printing like on, on a canvas and people will go, oh my God, you wrote that code?

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  That's so amazing. It's going to be so rare that it's going to become an art, right? It's not going to be, it's going to be commoditized completely, like it, it already is in a sense. Most elite vibe coders rely on AI. Again, it's an amplifier, right? So I think, um, Everybody becomes an engineer in the world of the future. A designer, a PM. Everybody is a forward deployed engineer or an assistant engineer or an LLM engineer or a vibe corner. The term is irrelevant. We're all using LLMs for raw output based on good judgment or bad judgment.

• 1:04:54Lenny Rachitsky?

  Oh, man. Essentially, these Venn diagrams of engineer, designer, PM. They're used to be very separate. Now they're converging and people with a specific, with deeper PM engineering design background are gonna like, they can all do the same thing essentially. All the rules are converging. What a, what a time to be alive. And it's so hard to predict exactly how this all goes, but, but it's fun to pontificate. I want to get back to when you get blocked. Speaking of elite engineers, uh, things that this like in the, in reality, you're still writing code using these tools. Sometimes code goes, things go wrong. Bugs are introduced. There's a weird database thing. There's like some network issue. What do you do when you get stuck? Do you have kind of a workflow you go through unblocking yourself?

• 1:05:37Speaker 00

  Yes, great question and absolutely true. Like no matter how good of a plan you have in place, you're gonna run into problems eventually. And I have like a small little framework that I call four by four. Just again, analogies, right? Four by four. If you, if you have it on your car, you're gonna get yourself out of the mud much easier than, than the other way around. So in that sense, four different ways to debug. Attempt one of each only once and I'll explain why in the end. First one is again, every tool is different. I'll, I'll reference lovable's workflow, um, which is when something breaks, lovable's agent is smart enough to say, hey, I made a mistake.

• 1:06:21Speaker 00

  It will label that message in orange and have this little button usually, which is called try to fix. So your agent basically admits it made a mistake. You click on a button and most times when it's a smaller issue, it corrects the course, fixes it, no problem, right? Now there are situations, obviously, when the problem is a little bit deeper than that, right? You click to try to fix, but the problem persists. And sometimes even the problem persists, but lovable's agents are aware that it persisted. So there's no more try to fix button. Lovable thinks everything's working, but in reality it isn't. And the culprit there is usually you're using a third-party integration.

• 1:07:04Speaker 00

  You did not give enough context to Lovable where, what to observe and what to see. So it can't see that the problem exists because Lovable, Cursor, Cloud Code, you name it. All these tools are good enough today to fix any problem they're aware of. Again, awareness is the key here, right? So when they're unaware of it, there comes the second part, which is, okay, I need to bring the awareness layer. And what I do there is I go in very simply, open the preview, sandbox, dev environment of my app, whatever. Try to run the, the function that's broken, right? Click, read the console log, right? Every, every browser allows you to just go and read the console log. And a lot of times it will record stuff.

• 1:07:49Speaker 00

  If it doesn't, you can prompt any tool and say, hey, I don't think you're seeing the problem. So instead of me yelling at you, let's find it together, right? I think it's a problem with X, Y, Z. I want you to write console logs in relevant files so that we can monitor every step along the way. Let's just bring awareness layer into the equation. It writes the console logs, you rerun it, guess what? Now you have a full history of everything that was happening. You copy that, you paste it inside your chat, 99% of the time, that's enough. That's, that's already enough. It has like, okay, got it, found it, fixed it, right? But then there are situations when even that's not sufficient.

• 1:08:34Speaker 00

  So you're like, okay, I need to go even deeper. And that's where like code reviews and evaluations come into play. My go-to tool today for that is Codex, OpenAI, right? What I do is like, any, any build that I do, I will export it to GitHub. Like Lovable allows you to own your code, Cursor as well. All of these tools allow you to have a copy of the code that you can export to GitHub and then import it into wherever you want to. So I, I, you know, use Codex since beta, like I import it in there. And then I'm using an external tool. So I'm, I'm like, In the first try, if you remember, like, I used the tool and I was like, total vibes, I'm relying on the tool, right?

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  In the second try, I use myself as the awareness facilitator. In the third one, I'm using an external tool as a facilitator, which is like, I'll either connect to Codex and chat with Codex to then fix the problem in lovable, right? I don't allow Codex to make code changes for me. A lot of people will say, why don't you like it's a good, good model? I just don't know its agent well enough. Like, I don't wanna go and, and use a tool that I don't know how to steer. So I use it only for diagnostic purposes and I'll also do it manually. It's an old workflow that I had before Codex and before Cloud Code, which is, there's a tool called Repo Mix, which allows you to like compress

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  every, your entire code base into a single file. You download it and then I upload it to Claude, just regular Claude or ChatGPT. And I'm like, this is what I'm building. Read it and, and this is the problem that I have. These are the console logs. Again, it's almost like having an external consultant at that point. Like you're hiring help elsewhere because your team just can't handle it, right? And then the fourth one is usually the best one because a lot of the time when there are problems, it's my fault. Like, no matter how your ego is big, guys, that you're watching this, it's your fault. Trust me, you had a bad prompt, you premised your request in the wrong way. You just don't wanna admit it or you can't remember that you did, but it's your fault.

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  So, again, in lovable and in all these other tools, you can revert back. There's version control built into lovable, cursor, Cloud Code. You go and say, okay, I tried these three things. I'm just gonna take three steps back and I'm gonna think about my prompt a little bit more. Take a couple of breaths, go for a walk, have some coffee. Come back with a clear mind and try again, because guess what? AI is just writing code very fast and sometimes it stumbles on a very small rock. And it only happens then and never again. So you just gotta make the same request again. And usually that just fixes the problem. It's just a snag. It's a syntax error. It's something minute, right?

• 1:11:29Speaker 00

  And then I do the final thing, which is this. And this is the key one, actually. When the problem gets fixed, I go into the chat mode and I, and I ask Lola, I say, okay, I needed to do four different things to fix this. How can you help me learn how to prompt you better? So that next time I have a problem, we do it in one go. Ninety-nine percent of the time I get such a great answer that I don't have the problem of not knowing what to do next time. Right? Like, again, you need, we all need to be aware and realistic. These tools are so good at, at doing things the right way. If they are used the right way, it's always our fault.

• 1:12:10Speaker 00

  It's a hard, I say 90%, but honestly, it's 100% our fault. Right? Cause they're good enough. It's just that I'm not dynamically shifting token allocation. I didn't reference the right file. I didn't say it the right way. For me, as a non-designer, I don't know any of the terminology, like none of the headings and whatnots. And I still don't know it to this day. So when I'm, I'm, I struggle with prompts. A lot of times I use chat mode to help me craft a good prompt. I mean, anybody can do this too. If you are just stuck, it's 10:00 PM and you don't know what to ask, switch to chat mode, brain dump and be like, help me draft a better prompt.

• 1:12:52Speaker 00

  Help me prompt you better and let the tool effectively prompt itself. A lot of times you're going to solve your problems by not introducing them at all with, with bad inputs. So.

• 1:13:04Lenny Rachitsky?

  Oh my God. Everything you share is so interesting. I just wanna, I wanna keep digging. So just to reflect back the, the sequence and then I want to follow up with another question. The sequence you go through when you get stuck?

• 1:13:19Lenny Rachitsky?

  Which is gonna happen to everyone. One is just ask the tool to try to fix it. And oftentimes it's telling you something is wrong. Can I fix it for you? And you're like, please fix. Sometimes that'll work. Two is work on adding more debugging messages to the console log. And this advice I love of just ask it to add more debugging lines to its own console log to help see what's going on. And then you can ask it, okay, now that you're looking, watch, look at all the output of your console log, see if you can help find the problem.

• 1:13:54Lenny Rachitsky?

  And then step three is go to Codex, which is, which is so funny. And, and I hear this a lot, that Codex is like the, the most elite engineer as an AI. Kirk Pothy tweeted this once that, we had the head of Codex on the podcast too, by the way, that he's like, anytime I have the most gnarly bug, I just go to Codex, let it run for half an hour and it solves it unlike any other tool out there. And so it makes sense that that's where you go. So the idea here is you point Codex to your code, you showed all the console output logs, tell it what the problem is and just have it go figure it out. Sweet. And then this final step is so great. And this is where I want to go. They, which you use this as a learning opportunity so that next time you solve the problem more quickly or avoid it completely.

• 1:14:39Lenny Rachitsky?

  So what you do there is you ask the agent, okay, here's what happened. What can I do? What could I have said? How could I have prompted you better to have gotten this immediately solved?

• 1:14:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then even more, even deeper than that is like, once you go through this conversation, you're like, okay, let me eliminate myself again completely out of the equation because I won't remember to prompt you better two days from now. Put this into rules. Put this, what we just learned into rules dot M D. Cause I, I'm making you read the rules every time anyways. So you might as well just record it there. So I'm not going to prompt you better. You're just going to learn that I'm stupid and you're going to prompt yourself better. Right? Again, just eliminate yourself.

• 1:15:24Speaker 00

  And move the context, you solve 99% of the problems with AI today.

• 1:15:29Lenny Rachitsky?

  So idea here is help it build its own brain and rules and way of thinking based on problems you're into. So great. Okay, so I want to come back to this point you've made a couple of times, which is so interesting. This idea that you watch the output of the agent to learn what is going on. This is something I've seen other people, Ben Tassel, who I think is at Factory now, shared this recently. He's also basically by coding all the time. He was really into no code tools before, and now he's all about by coding. And he shared, basically, like he's learning how things, how coding works and learning how systems work by watching the agent output. And this connects to something Michael Terrell shared, the CEO of Cursor, when he was on the podcast. He had this vision of Cursor becoming, basically, what comes after code?

• 1:16:12Lenny Rachitsky?

  What's the layer that we are adding on top of code where people don't need to worry about code anymore? And at that point, it was like a year ago that we chatted, and it feels like this is the layer is the agent conversation of what it's, what it's thinking and then what you tell it back. So essentially, it's English in a conversation, which is, like, it's not even pseudocode. It's interesting that that's where it feels like things are heading. The layer over code is just its thinking and your conversation with it.

• 1:16:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, again, in a way, I really optimize for for good judgment and part of good judgment is it comes from, again, learning how these tools work. You need to know what's possible. We talked about it, and I know I may sound contradictory sometimes, right? But it's because, as you said, it's so interesting, the world we live in, that things contradict to each other. It's an advantage not to know what's possible, but then at the same time, you cannot be completely oblivious to something that's like a factual thing. So let me talk about a failure of mine that came from being delusional.

• 1:17:23Speaker 00

  Back in the day when OpenAI started or better said, released image generation natively in the app, right? So you could go to ChatGPT and be like, generate an image of XYZ. The whole world exploded, like that was like the biggest thing ever. Obviously, first thing that comes to my mind is like, I want to build a lovable app. I just want to build a wrapper and I want to build an image gen with lovable. Without thinking that OpenAI did not release an API for that just yet. So I spent at least a week trying to brute my force, uh, brute force my way into making this work.

• 1:18:04Speaker 00

  Instead of just waiting for another week, cause a week later, they had an API and I built this up in 30 seconds. The problem was that like I tried to do it when it was impossible, impossible. Like, so, um, I think again, you know, uh, uh, i- it's just a matter of really learning what's possible through communicating with the agent layer. And lovable and all the other tools are agentic now, which means like they don't just write code. They can browse the web, they can read files, they, they have reasoning and thinking capabilities. So that's why I'm so invested into that conversation.

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  Cause a lot of times it will tell me, hey, what you're trying to do is just undoable at the moment because of X, Y, Z. So like, I always use those uh, uh, as a learning opportunity and I just level up most by being in chat mode for planning and learning purposes. And, and because it just again develops your clarity, your judgment capabilities, uh, rather than coding capabilities. Yeah.

• 1:19:09Lenny Rachitsky?

  The other point you made here, uh, that I think is really important is that over time, these tools will do more and more of what you do manually. I've heard this from other people that are doing this full time, basically vibe coding is just they had all these workflows, all these files and then cursor adds them, lovable adds them and it's like sad, oh shoot, I had this cool workflow now. But on the other hand, it's like, okay, now it's just doing all these second.

• 1:19:32Speaker 00

  A year ago, a year ago, if we had an interview, your mind would be blown. Stuff that I had to do as workarounds to, for, to, to address shortcomings, like I built a very successful course on that with starter story. Like for a year, people were like, just, oh my God, you're the only guy in the world that knows this secret. Now lovable natively addresses 99% of it. I can almost say.

• 1:19:55Speaker 00

  Most of the stuff that I I was teaching people were like, I have a YouTube channel, a little bit appreciate, but like, there's a there's a like a seven day learn how to vibe code with lovable series that I did in March. Completely obsolete, like it, none of it is true, none of it is a problem anymore, all the things that I was like, oh, well, this is missing and that is missing, it's not missing anymore, it's natively in the product, like you don't have to work your way around it, it it just works, right? So um, that's why, as I said, like, um, it it's the it's the horses analogy, I don't know if you heard of it, like a lot of people are tweeting about it, which is like, we started building the steam machine in seventeen hundreds, right? Took us about two hundred years to build it.

• 1:20:40Speaker 00

  When it got to when when engines got built and for cars were put on the roads. I I think that ninety percent of horse population was got eradicated in the US within twenty years. The person that tweeted this works at Claude Code, right? So he was like, now, when I translate it into AI, I was hired to do a job, technical job, technical writer, whatever. I became obsolete six months later. Like, humans did not get the twenty years that horses did. The guy that that is was hired to do a thing is like, six months later, I need to reinvent my my role, I need to involve it into into something else, right?

• 1:21:21Speaker 00

  So, you know, I I think there's just an evolution that's coming really, really fast. But like, a lot of people are scared when I'm just super excited, because don't you see our roles are finally going in a direction where we're outsourcing what we hated doing anyways? Right, sitting in meetings, taking notes, doing spreadsheets, like nobody, may maybe there are people that like that, but like, most people don't. We're just getting into a place where we're rewarded for what really matters, like clarity, judgment, thinking. We're actually going to be paid to think longer and ponder longer, because

• 1:22:01Speaker 00

  The longer idea simmers and gets broken down, the better because building it is gonna be an instant, right? It's gonna be like this. It's just a matter of you having so much clarity around it because guess what? If a tool is super powerful and you give it a wrong input, the output is gonna suck as well. That's why like I've never become good enough at Claude Code, I feel. Because I don't start my projects with enough clarity and the tool is so powerful that like I just misdirected completely from the cat go. And I was like, oh, shoot, this is not what I wanted to do. So that's why I still see myself being good at like using tools that are a little bit on the exploratory prototyping path.

• 1:22:47Speaker 00

  More than like on the path that, you know, elite engineers will use, for example.

• 1:22:52Lenny Rachitsky?

  I love your optimism and excitement about this stuff. I think for a lot of people, say their current software engineers, PMs, designers, there's a lot of fear about the future of their careers. Are they going to be relevant? Will my software engineering skills disappear? So to follow this thread a little bit, if you were to give someone advice on which skills you think will be most valuable? Slash where AI will take on more and more, this kind of momentum you're seeing of where AI is filling in more and more gaps. What would your advice be of what you think people should focus on? What will continue to be valuable in the future?

• 1:23:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, emotional intelligence for sure. Just understanding human nature, real life stuff. I think we're all gonna get so tired of everything fake, fake images, fake posts, fake profiles, fake this, fake that, fake videos. Everything is becoming fake and AI generated. I think humans just craving humans naturally are gonna wanna do live stuff more. So anything human to human is gonna be a big thing to skill up on, understand the dynamics. Anything regarding math, if it's a math problem, I think Peter Thiel said it recently, like people that just do math stuff, you know, AI is gonna come for you. Like anything that's very deterministic, meaning.

• 1:24:17Speaker 00

  X input equals Y output and it's pretty clear the the line is pretty clear. AI has got you eaten for lunch, right? But if you understand how X to Y goes in human dynamic, human relationship layer, I think that's where things are going to become good. So if we translate it again to a specific skill, I'll say it again, good design, really good design, great design, like how I always say design, that's images, fonts as well. Copy, copy is a big one, like we all now, we're like two years into AI. I'll bet you, me and you, if people put ten pieces of copy in front of us, we could tell what's AI and what isn't in like three seconds. And we're only a couple of years in.

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  So like really good copy writing is going to be a very good skill to have because people are just going to know after three words or three sentences that it's AI written and even I don't read AI output anymore. I don't like seeing it, I want that raw human experience. So I think human skills, I don't even know how to describe it because I don't, I don't think we're doing an awesome job putting labels onto what humans are good at natively. But I think we will, I think we will describe job descriptions better. We will have like a human first engineers, I don't know, or human designers, or I don't know how to describe those roles, same way how Carpathia coined vibe coding.

• 1:25:46Speaker 00

  I was vibe coding before he did it, I didn't know how to call it. Like I started vibe coding in July of 2024 and I think he coined it sometime in early 2025. So I was like doing it for seven months and I was teaching people how to do it for about three or four with courses and I didn't even know how to call it. Like because there was no name, it was like, oh, I'm just using AI to do this for me. I don't know, whatever. So yeah, I think we're going to reinvent some of the terms, rules and whatnot, but. Stuff that's like human to human is here to stay. Stuff that's like, I think, like, oh, you're you're just doing, you're you're you're a middle manager. You're a middleware person that's just translating stuff.

• 1:26:31Speaker 00

  Um, and I can use that analogy again. Translators are gonna die. People writing jokes, comedians are not. AI is never gonna be able to write a good joke. Never, never, never. It just doesn't have that layer. That just doesn't understand what's funny. Like, if you ever try to use AI to write jokes, like, they're awful. They're always gonna be awful. But if you use AI to translate things from one language to another, it's very good at it. Like, AI is gonna replace translators. It's gonna replace most journalists because it does good research. It can write good copy, whatever. Not not elite journalism. It's not gonna be able to replace all the writers. It's gonna amplify great writers that can train AI on how to write books.

• 1:27:12Speaker 00

  So like, somebody who's an amazing writer is gonna all of a sudden write seven books a year instead of one. Right? So that's that's dangerous. If you're an average writer, be careful. There are zero comedians being placed, zero. And that's just my personal belief. Like, AI is never gonna write good comedy. It's impossible. And like, so try to find your analogy in your industry. Like, I just gave you one for uh writing skills, so to speak. So writing jokes, super good skill to have. Um, translating, I'm sorry to say, but like, you're not gonna have a job for much longer. Like, uh, you better find something else to do. Um, but yeah, that's that's how I look at it.

• 1:27:57Lenny Rachitsky?

  The the comedy piece is interesting. I had one of the founders of the data labeling company. I don't know if it was Merckor, maybe Surge. And he said that, um, I think it was Anthropic hired a bunch of national lampoon comedy writers uh to help them train models. And so they're working on it. And I'm so I I love this strong prediction he made. I'm so curious in a year to look back and be like, he was completely right or no, they got that one too.

• 1:28:23Speaker 00

  I'll be wrong on ninety five percent of the things I said today, three months from now. That is the only thing I can say very, very confidently.

• 1:28:30Lenny Rachitsky?

  Yeah, that seems right. Okay, so speaking of career, so one interesting career option is to do what you're doing. As you said, this is a dream job for you. It's a dream job for so many people. What, what is the kind of your path to this job? And what do you think it takes for someone to actually do this as a profession?

• 1:28:49Speaker 00

  Well, my personal path and personal journey was anything but linear, right? I've done so many things in, in life, like um, blue collar jobs with even at Subway while I was studying and stuff like that, like um, I'm, I'm an engineer by trade, but not a software engineer. I'm a forestry engineer, so no coding, but still. Engineering is engineering, I feel. You still develop certain set of skills doing that. Uh, I waited tables a long time, so you develop some human skills. You understand what people like, what they don't like, like. I've, again, blue collar jobs like teach you hard work and like, it's, as I said, the path was not linear, but I feel almost like a slumdog millionaire of the movie storyline, which is like,

• 1:29:29Speaker 00

  everything that happens to the character brings him into a position to be able to answer the quite, the questions in the, in the quiz better. I have, I feel the same way of like, I've done a lot of stuff last seven to eight years, obviously spent in startups, but doing everything but code writing, like started in like community management, social media. Again, distribution matters a lot. That's something we haven't touched upon at all, like in a world when everybody's building. And there's roughly the same amount of consumers in the world. How do you get in front of the, the eyeballs, right? Like, and I'd get attention, which is gonna, it is this more scarce resource and it will be even more scarce, but like,

• 1:30:09Speaker 00

  going back to the vibe coder role, if somebody's like saying, okay, well, I have, I have a pretty diverse background too, and I'm vibe coding and like, how do I, how does this become a job? Well, for me, I feel like it became a job by building in public. I did chat with Elena once, only once, so like, why me? There are so many good vibe coders. How did you pick me out of the crowd? And I think, you know, obviously, you know, she gave me a couple of reasons, but like to translate it into like a, a, a, what's one concept? It was like, I was building in public and sharing. I, as I said, I made a YouTube channel and I share all the failures and all the knowledge, all the projects that I was building. I use social media a lot, like LinkedIn was my go-to

• 1:30:51Speaker 00

  because I just have that type of cadence. As you can see, I, all my Instagrams are very long and X doesn't, doesn't cut it for that. Like you need, you know, you need to be very, to on, on point to be successful at X, so I'm not. So I guess, you know, it's just like build in public, share your knowledge, give away all the secrets, like there are no secrets whatsoever. Uh, if you're sitting on a good concept, you're missing out. Just share it immediately if you figure something out. That I recognized that, um, very early on. And, you know, just like, I think a lot of people participate in hackathons these days. I want to encourage people to do them, like find those, those opportunities locally to connect with other builders. Lovable is hiring

• 1:31:33Speaker 00

  across the board. Check out our op, open positions. It's as easy as that, right? Like, just apply, really. Find companies that, that are hiring and, and hiring in, in different roles. And I've seen people do something, I'm gonna give people a, a secret away. A couple of hires stood up by not sending resumes, but sending lovable apps. They built lovable apps to show what they're, why they're good, fit for a role. And we, as lovable employees, will always open an app that uses lovable.app domain. Always. If you send me a DM, send me a lovable app. Don't send me anything long. Send me an app that tells me what, what you want from me, or how do you see us collaborating and working together, right? So there's people finding creative ways

• 1:32:14Speaker 00

  to get in front of eyeballs of decision makers like Elena, right? And, um, I, I mean, skill-wise, again, we're just repeating ourselves here, but I think it's important to repeat it as many times as possible. Really develop good judgment, right? Really, uh, understand in a deeper sense how, uh, how things translate when vibe coding comes into play, right? There's a company out there, I, I'm not gonna name them, but like, um, that uses lovable religiously. It's gonna be one of our main case studies, actually, where like, they actually hired vibe coders before

• 1:32:54Speaker 00

  lovable did. Like, I'm the first official vibe coding engineer at lovable, like with that title, but I've met people in companies where they hired them before us. People that are just vibe coders, people that just understand that.

• 1:33:09Speaker 00

  Speed matters, right? It still matters a lot to be fast. And like, there's a company out there with three vibe quarters full time. All they do is like translating the old code base into onto lovable. This is bringing everything. There are CRM, CMS, everything, that all the tool sets that they have and they needed. There are people now actively just migrating everything, everything over there. There's S and P 500 companies that are like putting lovable in in job descriptions too, like saying, hey, lovable scares skills are, you know, recommended in the recommended tab, right? So yeah, to to to to go back to the how to become vibe quarter professionally. Well, you don't need a company to hire you.

• 1:33:52Speaker 00

  You can hire yourself as a professional live holder first. I think the reason why I clicked with Anton and with Elaine and whoever was because I was already doing it. Like, all I did, I just changed the the vehicle. But I was already doing it professionally before I got hired. So that's kind of the the key, like, do the job you you would have done anyways.

• 1:34:18Lenny Rachitsky?

  What a mind expanding conversation. I love just how passionate and excited and motivated you are about all this. It feels like there's so many people out there right now that are so burnt out. I don't know disillusioned scared. And you're the opposite of that. You're just leaning into this, just taking advantage, taking not sure where it's gonna go, but following the path.

• 1:34:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I don't want to interrupt you, but like, it's because like, look, lovable specifically isn't a company. You can talk about it as a company. I don't see it as a company. It's a it's an idea. It's a mission. It's something more powerful than the internet in my mind, because like, internet allows us to consume, lovable allows us to build. And in our nature and human nature is to build, to create, right? And the fact that there's a tool today that you can go into and dump an idea in, and something comes out of it, and somebody uses it and finds it useful to me, it's just.

• 1:35:20Speaker 00

  It's the craziest concept ever. It's my, my only life's dream. I had my first computer when I was six. And I was convinced my whole life that I'm gonna be a software engineer or that I'm gonna be building. But like, life wasn't as simple as that for me. Like, uh, it was very, very complicated. And honestly, the last five to 10 years, I gave up on that dream, almost. I, I, I thought I'm never gonna build anything. Like, I've tried. I, I've tried to build with technical co-founders. Like, I just couldn't find alignment. I was, I just gave up on it. And I, now, like at 36, like 30 years later, I feel like, I can't like that, that kid.

• 1:36:02Speaker 00

  Like, I dream every day. Like, I, it's, it's amazing what this enables us to do. And I, anybody that's scared, like, just try it. It, it switches from fear to excitement immediately, because then you see what's possible firsthand. Just go in, build something, build anything, and the, the fear goes away. You, you should only be afraid if you're doing nothing. If you're doing absolutely nothing, yes. Be terrified. By all means, be terrified. And then, take a step towards doing something about it. And trust me, the leap is no longer as big as it used to be. It's as big as you come in and you just say, what's on your mind? And, and just ship.

• 1:36:45Lenny Rachitsky?

  I think a big part of this is just stop listening to this podcast, go just do stuff. You actually try it, try it too, right?

• 1:36:50Speaker 00

  Ideally, people stop right now. They've heard enough. I gave them what I, I gave them the best that I could. Just stop listening and just go.

• 1:36:58Lenny Rachitsky?

  All right. Bye, everyone. Okay, I'm just joking. But let's, but let's, we, we shall wrap it up.

• 1:37:04Lenny Rachitsky?

  I'm gonna skip the lightning round just to keep this episode shorter. Before we wrap up, is there anything else other than just go build some stuff? Anything else you wanna say? Anything else you wanna leave listeners with? Otherwise, we'll let you go.

• 1:37:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, tech stack doesn't matter anymore, right? It doesn't matter like people obsess over, oh, is this written in HTML? Is this written in React? It doesn't matter like it never mattered, but now matters even less. The end user just wants a stellar experience. We live in a world where anybody can produce good enough. So you you better start learning how to produce magic. Cause otherwise you're just gonna end up in a crowd with millions and millions of others. But at the same time, if you don't know what magical looks like, don't be discouraged to start building anything. And start, start from good enough and level up. The best way to level up exposure time.

• 1:37:59Speaker 00

  Set aside more time on learning than building. Read the agent output, learn how it's thinking so that you know what's possible. But then also go and get inspired. Follow good designers on X. Find tools where great designs are produced and follow their creators. There's a tool where where I'm following just the the actual person that built it. Cause he he publishes videos almost daily, forty, fifty minutes long of him designing. I wanna see how a world class designer does it. I wanna see him talk to the tool. I wanna see him prompt and that's how I learn to become better at it.

• 1:38:41Speaker 00

  So again, exposure time, just deliberately set more time aside to learning than coding. Because you can code fast, but you can code garbage fast as well as magic fast. It's the same amount of time. It's you and your input that matters. Forget about decisions on tech stack. Forget about which backend are you using, which frontend are you using? That doesn't matter. Quality, taste, design. That's all you need to optimize for in the future that's ahead of us.

• 1:39:12Lenny Rachitsky?

  Well, Zara, this, uh, I think we're gonna leave a lot of line, a lot of minds buzzing after this conversation. You blow my mind in so many ways. What a fascinating topic, conversation, what a glimpse into the future. What an interesting point in time. I'm so curious, just, you know, in six months, where things are and revisiting this conversation. I really appreciate you coming on, sharing all of this. You're awesome. Where can folks find you if they want to reach out, maybe ask some follow-up questions? And how can listeners be useful to you?

• 1:39:39Speaker 00

  Awesome. Yeah, so I mentioned it already. LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me on. You know, I'm very responsive there. If you want to follow me, I hope to reengage my YouTube channel a little bit more. I think I have a lot of cool tips and tricks that I want to share and teach people how to use lovable and just vibe code in general and level up. And on how people can be useful to me, well, you know, I'm very passionate about making sure that everybody experiences what I've experienced that day when I got my first prompt. And I envy the person that is going to try lovable for the first time after watching this episode

• 1:40:22Speaker 00

  because the feeling is just unmatched of you going from a consumer to a builder. But in that process, there's going to be some battles to fight. I want to reduce the amount of those battles and hurdles. So if you can help me in any way, message me what could have been better in that experience, especially if this is your, you just watched this and you're like, I'm going to do it. I was on the fence and I'm going to do it. If something breaks, if something doesn't connect and relate, I need to know what that is. My job is 100% to empower you to build the best work of your life, right? And, you know, and I need to say this too, because a lot of people may be inspired,

• 1:41:03Speaker 00

  not by building or using lovable, but rather building lovable. Come join our team. Again, we're hiring across so many things. I think a lot of people should feel inspired because I hope that the energy that I bring to the table will resonate. This is how it feels working at lovable. This is how it feels working with the best minds, the brightest minds of the world. We're not number one by accident. It's not a coincidence. The best people are gathering and we want you to be a part of it too. So if the energy and the conversation resonates with you, or if you heard about a problem today. And you're like, man, I think I can solve it.

• 1:41:47Speaker 00

  Come, join us, help us build and shake the future of software development.

• 1:41:51Lenny Rachitsky?

  Incredible. And what's the site? I imagine it's just a link on lovable's website to find the open roles. We'll link folks there. Incredible. Lazar, thank you so much for being here.

• 1:42:02Speaker 00

  Appreciate the opportunity.

• 1:42:03Lenny Rachitsky?

  Bye, everyone. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this valuable, you can subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Also, please consider giving us a rating or leaving a review as that really helps other listeners find the podcast. You can find all past episodes or learn more about the show at lennyspodcast.com. See you in the next episode.