NFL Preseason Hype Buy or Sell. Plus, Spike Lee on Basketball and Movies | With Danny Kelly

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Danny Kelly of The Ringer Fantasy Football Show to discuss the preseason NFL hype (2:54). Then, Spike Lee joins to talk Knicks; Denzel Washington; his new film, ‘Highest 2 Lowest’; and much more (01:02:09)! Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Danny Kelly and Spike Lee Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:30Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays, but there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetraids.

• 2:01Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday. We did Rollerball, which came out in 1975 and is one of the first great modern sports movies. Brian Koppin and I broke it down. You can listen to it or watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel or on Spotify. Next Monday, we're doing a movie that came out 50 years after Rollerball. I think this is the biggest disparity we've ever had between an old movie and a new movie, a 50-year difference. We're doing Sinners, best movie I saw this year. I've seen it a bunch of times and cannot wait to talk about it. So that's going to be on Monday. Stay tuned for that.

• 2:42Bill Simmons?

  Spike Lee and I talked about that a little bit later, actually, when we did our interview. So you can look forward to that. Want to talk, while we're talking about movies, Mission Accomplished, new narrative podcast that's going to be on the Big Picture Podcast. It's about the 2000s, the Bush years, and a deeper dive into some of the films that came out right after America was going through 9/11 and a whole bunch of other stuff. So that premiered August 12th, and you can check it out on the Big Picture Podcast. On this podcast, Danny Kelly's coming in, and we're going to talk about all the preseason NFL hype.

• 3:18Bill Simmons?

  What do we believe? What do we not believe? What are we actually even more excited about than the hype? I told him 25 minutes, and I think we went 50. So a lot of NFL, a lot of NFL going on. Can't wait for it to come back. We're getting close. And then Spike Lee, for the second time ever, he has a new movie coming out, and that is not what we spent the first half hour talking about, because we had to catch up on a lot of basketball stuff. He came, he came over to the new studio and did it. I'm getting back in the swing with these celebrity interviews. I'm trying to remember how to do them. It's been so long. Once COVID happened, I hate interviewing people on Zoom. We'd had this great run of interviews in 16, 17, 18, 19, and then COVID just stopped it.

• 4:00Bill Simmons?

  But now I want to get back in the swing. So Spike's helping me get my chops back. But I had a great time. A lot of good stuff that came out of that, too. So this is a big action-packed podcast. One note, I will not have a podcast on Sunday unless there's some sort of major sports event or something, but I'm probably not coming back until middle of next week. So just keep that one in mind. We're going to take a break. We're gonna do Pearl Jam and then Danny Kelly and then finally Spike Lee right after this.

• 4:55Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're recording this late Wednesday, so if anything happens, don't blame us. Danny Kelly is here. You can read him on the Ringer dot com. You can listen to him on the Ringer. Fantasy football show, excellent show. We'll be doing our little four-person preview on this podcast a little later in August. Danny Kelly, I was thinking about it. This is our 10th NFL season together.

• 5:17Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 5:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 5:19Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, it is. That's right.

• 5:20Bill Simmons?

  Because The Ringer was June 2016. And this is season number 10. So what was going on in September 2016?

• 5:29Speaker 04

  Oh, man.

• 5:30Bill Simmons?

  We still had Tom Brady. Peyton Manning was gone. Rogers was becoming the king. The Seahawks were still relatively relevant, right?

• 5:41Speaker 04

  There was still a chance that they were gonna kind of keep their dynasty alive, but it just didn't happen after that.

• 5:45Bill Simmons?

  The Cowboys were getting a lot of hype and not coming through, which is just like now.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  Déjà vu, yeah.

• 5:53Bill Simmons?

  We had all these quarterbacks we didn't really have yet, like Josh Allen and Mahomes. None of those guys were on the radar yet. We were wondering who the next wave was gonna be.

• 6:03Speaker 04

  Early on in my tenure at The Ringer, we did Cleveland Browns week. I can't remember exactly what season it was. Might have been that first season. Obviously, that didn't pan out so well.

• 6:14Bill Simmons?

  We probably had a sponsor for it who left, who was like, I don't want to sponsor the segment about. Give us our money back. So it is officially preseason hype time. You pointed this out. I said, hey, I need an NFL segment. I want us to do something. And you're like, well, it's preseason hype season. It's almost mid-August. This is when we overreact to stuff, good and bad. We're gonna play a game called Buy or Sell. So it's preseason hype. It's not just the good hype. This is also the uh oh, train wreck coming kinda hype. It's all kinds of hype. What's your number one preseason hype either way that you've been like huh? What's going on here?

• 6:56Speaker 04

  So this is tough because there's a lot of really fun things. I'm one of those sickos that likes to watch preseason football. And get really into the nitty gritty. I, the first one I want to bring up, bring up is the Bears offense. The situation that's going on with the Bears offense, I feel like there's Bears despair right now with camp. And it's weird because at the same time, there's really good vibes with Ben Johnson, like that signing was electric. And everything they've done from like the coaching point of view has been good, but I think all the reviews so far from camp and everything that you're seeing on Twitter and kind of just what's happening at practices, it feels like it's not going so well. So I am officially selling Bears despair. I'm, I'm holding out. I still have hope.

• 7:39Speaker 04

  I still have faith that the Bears are going to be a pretty good offense. It's gonna be a huge upgrade over what we saw last year.

• 7:45Bill Simmons?

  So do you think this is a case of the offense is just way more elaborate than it was last year? And it's the classic, everyone's just trying to figure out stuff. Everybody's got way more jobs. 50 different plays than they had before, and it's just super choppy.

• 8:00Speaker 04

  Yes. And I think the, the nice part, it's like one of those things where as the season goes along, I think it's, it's gonna start to look a lot better. I know Ben Johnson is sort of known for being very detail oriented. And to me, what that says is early on in, in training camp, he's gonna be so focused on all those details that they're gonna have to kinda keep going over it. Yeah. Getting all the motions correct, getting the snaps just how he wants it, getting everybody in the right place. But I think that was kind of a, you know, that was a big part of the reason their offense just wasn't good last year. It's like guys aren't going into the right spot. You got guys that are not fully bought in with, with the offensive system or like whatever, the coaching. DJ Moore's walking off the field during a play, you know, that was just kind of the type of stuff.

• 8:42Bill Simmons?

  That was a great.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  That to me was just like the biggest indication of how terrible everything could have possibly gone like Caleb Williams is scrambling around and DJ Moore just walks off the field and I'm like, okay, that's, that is the, that's the biggest indication. This is just an absolute train wreck. But if you go through, obviously, I think the Ben, the Ben Johnson hiring to me is like one of the biggest hirings of this kind of era. This, it has the potential to be kind of like that Sean McVay thing. Obviously, we've seen guys with a ton of hype that don't end up being very good. And that could be the case with Ben Johnson. But everything we've talked about for the last two or three years is Ben Johnson, you know, genius play caller, genius

• 9:25Speaker 04

  play designer, play sequencer, you know, he's pulling out end arounds, hook and ladders, passing to tackles, passing to, you know, having double passes, everything like he, he has been more in his bag as a play caller than any other offensive play caller in NFL over the last few years. And so to me, that is a huge, huge upgrade, especially when you compare it to like Shane Waldron last year. I mean, Shane Waldron has become kind of a butt of jokes. But, you know, the thing that we always talk about on our show is there was an interview last offseason with Jackson Smith and Jigba. And he was asked like, what do you, what do you think of the Shane Waldron hiring for the Bears? And, and Smith and Jigba was like, are we live here? Is this, is this on? Yeah.

• 10:09Speaker 04

  He's like, he's a good person. Yeah, nice guy. Yeah. So, I mean, I think that's a massive upgrade. They've done a lot to, to work on their offensive line. I saw PFF has the Bears going into this year as the fourth best offensive line. That's a bit of an outlier, but I've seen, you know, fantasy points has them 15th, Draft Sharks has them 10th, FTN has them 12th. So they're a, they have the potential to be a top half of the league offensive line if everybody kind of works out with that they brought in. They drafted Colson Loveland, Luther Burden, year two of Roma Dunze. Hopefully, he's healthy. I'm just kind of buying all the different ingredients here. And I still have belief in Caleb Williams, even though obviously he looked terrible as a rookie. Most of the time, I mean, he had some pretty good games too. But the lows were just really

• 10:52Speaker 04

  concerning. And so hopefully Ben Johnson can just eliminate some of those really, really bad games and kind of raise the floor for the whole offense.

• 11:00Bill Simmons?

  You left out the Bill Simmons rankings, which I sent to you. You're the only person I sent them to.

• 11:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:04Bill Simmons?

  I had the top four, Denver, Buffalo, Philly, Tampa for offensive lines, but the next tier, Indy, Atlanta, Minnesota, and Chicago.

• 11:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:14Bill Simmons?

  I think they're a top eight. If you just look at like the amount of money they spent, the people they have and, and the talent and the ages, like it just, you know, and I defer to all the offensive line girl like Brandon Thor, people like that and all them are like, that line's gonna be good. The Chargers, I think I had potentially up there, but after the Slater thing not happening. So the Bears piece, it feels like it's gonna be choppy. I feel like we've seen this before in other NFL situations where it takes like a month.

• 11:44Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:44Bill Simmons?

  And I have my eye on them like as a second half. I'm just trying to file this away for, from a betting standpoint. I think their over unders eight and a half, which to me feels a whiflow because if you're just gonna pick pile on a, on a division, I think that's one of the divisions to look at. And I think the other one would be the NFC West. If you're like, there's a 40 plus win division sitting here in one of these conferences. NFC North and AFC West, I think would be the two picks.

• 12:13Bill Simmons?

  The, the problem for me with them,

• 12:16Bill Simmons?

  just like as I think of them, big picture is, you know, some of the schedule stuff and all the night games, like they, we get to week 13, they're playing a Friday night. Their week 16 is Saturday night, week 17, Sunday night football. They play two other Monday night games. It's like for a team that wasn't good last year. They're being treated like they're a national TV thing, but they go Vikings first week of the season. And that's something that really scares me because I think there's a case for the Vikings defense to be the best defense this year. If you're gonna say, who's the best defense this year? And you're just listing candidates. Vikings, Texans are in there. Steelers still have to be in there, even though I think they're gonna slip off a little bit.

• 13:00Bill Simmons?

  Is there anybody else you would even put in that conversation? It's probably the Vikings in the number one spot.

• 13:05Speaker 04

  I mean, yeah.

• 13:06Bill Simmons?

  For preseason. So they're playing them week one on Monday night, which makes. Makes me nervous.

• 13:10Speaker 04

  This is gonna, yeah, and please remember, I'm not saying week one, they're going to be a very good offense. I think as the year goes on, we're going to start to see the Ben Johnson effect take hold. I think it's going to be a tough one, that week one against the Vikings, you know, they're gonna make his, they're gonna make Caleb Williams' life kind of hell and

• 13:27Bill Simmons?

  Disguising shit. Oh, these guys were, no, now these guys are going.

• 13:31Speaker 04

  A hundred percent.

• 13:32Bill Simmons?

  It's gonna be a nightmare.

• 13:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I think

• 13:33Bill Simmons?

  That'll be our overreaction, week one. It's like, the Bears are dead. Caleb Williams' career is over. And then they'll be like, five and four after week 10.

• 13:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 13:42Bill Simmons?

  All right. I like that one. Uh, I'm going, I'm going chalk with this first pick. I saw my guy Peter Schrager, I saw a clip of him on one of the ESPN shows, because he's on a bunch of them now. And he was doing this, and I was laughing because I knew it was coming. I wish I could have bet on this on Fanduel. The, the Giants knew Abdul Carter was gonna be good.

• 14:06Bill Simmons?

  They didn't know he was gonna be this good.

• 14:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:11Bill Simmons?

  There's, that's, this is the official week of, holy shit, this guy might already be one of the most impactful defensive guys in the league. This was the devastation of the Patriots with the Joe Milton game, who of course plays his first preseason game for Dallas and stinks.

• 14:27Speaker 04

  Right.

• 14:28Bill Simmons?

  And meanwhile, the one time he was able to put together three decent hours in a row, cost us the number one pick. I like Will Campbell, I'm happy for him, but this Abdul Carter thing, and the Giants having a real kind of frightening pass rush, I don't know what it means, but it means something. And it means they're, at very least, if you're, if you don't have your shit together offensively, and maybe your, your left tackle's out, you can't block to begin with, it's not a team I want to see. So have you been following the Carter hype train? Because I'm buying.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  Oh, 100%. I mean, this, you know, this could be one of the best fronts in football. Dexter Lawrence is probably the best defensive tackle, or one of the best defensive tackles.

• 15:07Bill Simmons?

  It's definitely one of the best. I thought you, when you started that sentence, I thought you were gonna be one of the best fronts of the decade.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  No, I'm not going that hard. But yeah, I think this is the type of team. There's a couple of teams that are doing this right now. I feel like the the Jets are kind of trying to do this, too. It's like emulating the Eagles. Like, the Eagles are the prototype. They're the blueprint. You know, if we have a really good defense with a ton of studs up front, we can, you know, that can create things for the backend. And then we can on offense, we can run the ball and play a ball control offense and, you know, all that stuff. And I think there's teams that are trying to kind of emulate that. This is a very poor man's version of it, I think, for the Giants.

• 15:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:48Speaker 04

  But, you know, I heard on the broadcast the other day that Jackson Dart models his game after Jalen Hurts. And I'm like, I can kind of see what he's talking about in the sense that he's really good throwing deep. He can hit those big plays. He can run around. He can be a part of the run game. They had some designed runs for him. You know, and Dayball is a guy that comes from coaching, you know, Josh Allen. So like, I think he's open to utilizing his quarterback in the run game. Again, this is a very poor man's version of it. And, you know, I wasn't like the hugest Jackson Dart fan, but I do, I, one of my things I actually was going to bring is that I'm buying that the Giants are going to be kind of fun this year. I don't know if they're going to be good, but they're going to be worth watching. That defense is going to be really, you know.

• 16:31Bill Simmons?

  You know where they got fucked?

• 16:33Speaker 04

  Where's that?

• 16:34Bill Simmons?

  They should have an awesome schedule, right? They sucked last year. They're playing the AFC West and the NFC North. Those are the two you don't want. Their fourth place schedule, they're playing the Patriots, Vegas, and the Niners. Like, all those teams might be good.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  We, yeah, we were trying to figure out when the best spot to bench Russell Wilson and bring Jackson Dart in this season is going to be. And it's kind of tough because they.

• 17:01Bill Simmons?

  You gotta go like mid-season.

• 17:03Speaker 04

  I mean, I guess maybe.

• 17:05Bill Simmons?

  At Bears, week 10?

• 17:06Speaker 04

  You can't do, yeah, you can't do week five there. That's at New Orleans because then after that, they get Philly, Denver, Philly, San Francisco. I mean, that is like.

• 17:14Bill Simmons?

  Denver and Philly on the road. By the way, we, I forgot when we were talking best defenses, I forgot to mention Philly. I'd like to apologize to the defending champion Eagles and their fans. And I forgot to mention the Broncos because that's the other team that I think could have a top three defense, but. In the Giants case, at the very least, it's a team that if they're up 13-10 in the third quarter and they could just be like, oh, you have to throw the ball now and they're just unleashing everybody. We've seen teams that have awesome pass rushes. It doesn't matter when you're down 20 to three.

• 17:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 17:47Bill Simmons?

  It's not, who cares? But I agree with you. I think they're going to be really fun on both sides of the ball, which is different than basically every incarnation of the Giants for the last 10 years.

• 17:58Speaker 04

  I know. Yeah, I give Hyphett's crap all the time just because the Giants have been one of the worst teams in the NFL. Like, they score some of the fewest points, fewest touchdowns. They've just been pretty much awful since we started working together at The Ringer. So hopefully this year that changes and he can have a little joy in his life from his team.

• 18:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, listen, the Carter thing was a miracle that he got the third.

• 18:18Speaker 04

  Seriously.

• 18:18Bill Simmons?

  It's a miracle and that a team traded up to two and didn't take Carter.

• 18:22Speaker 04

  Right.

• 18:22Bill Simmons?

  And I don't know, maybe they were worried about the foot and, but I'm just, the Travis Hunter, that's great. You can play both sides of the ball. You're going to be super exciting. I get it. But I just, if you're just starting from scratch, what are the things you need to be an awesome team?

• 18:38Speaker 04

  Right.

• 18:39Bill Simmons?

  Quarterback one, and probably somebody like Carter would be the number two thing you would want.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:44Bill Simmons?

  Just starting from scratch. So, well, you, I went there, but then you pivoted it back to Jackson Dart. So I think I get to go again.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, okay.

• 18:54Bill Simmons?

  Josh Simmons, KC having a left tackle.

• 18:57Speaker 04

  Oh, good one.

• 18:59Bill Simmons?

  I've been reading a lot about this. So they lost Tooney because everyone's like, well, they have a left tackle. Well, you're still, you still lost Tooney. So you can't say your offensive line's going to be dramatically better, but they will have a left tackle. They get this guy. You're, you know, you're one of the focal points of our draft pod. Somebody that would have been in the top 10 to 12 range if he doesn't get hurt.

• 19:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:21Bill Simmons?

  Gets hurt, falls into the, you know, end of the first round. All the smart draft people were like, oh shit, that might be a good pick if that guy can play next year. And guess what? He can play. Are you buying that combined with Rashi Rice back?

• 19:38Bill Simmons?

  A healthy Pacheco.

• 19:39Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 19:40Bill Simmons?

  We got Hollywood Brown back. Are you buying the Mahomes assance as a fantasy guy or no?

• 19:46Speaker 04

  Uh, I think so. I'm cautiously optimistic. Obviously, the problem is I'm a little nervous because they have such a good defense that they're just gonna play the type of football that they've been playing the last couple of years, which is where, you know, they dominate defensively and they don't, you know, and they haven't been as explosive as they were early on in Mahomes' career. In fact, if you look at Mahomes' numbers on deep passing last year, they were pretty horrific.

• 20:07Bill Simmons?

  It's

• 20:07Speaker 04

  Relative to what you'd expect from him.

• 20:09Bill Simmons?

  It's awful.

• 20:10Speaker 04

  And so, and then obviously Travis Kelsey, kind of a shell of what he used to be, but that's, I mean, he's still a good player. He's still gonna create matchup problems on the inside. I'm cautiously buying what the Chiefs are doing. They've upgraded their offensive skill player group. I'm a, I was a Jalen Royals fan. I think he could give them something while Rashi Rice is suspended. I think Xavier Worthy, he showed last year that he can kind of play that Rashi Rice role as well in terms of getting him opportunities to run after catch, crossing routes. You can't catch up to him on crossing routes. He will just run away from you. And, you know, I thought he showed some things. I still don't think he's like a complete receiver. He's not gonna win in contested catch situations or anything like that.

• 20:52Speaker 04

  But, you know, they, they've, then they'll get Rashi Rice back at some point, either week four, week six, probably. And he's looking like he's been pretty healthy. So, you know, their, their offensive skill group will be a lot better. Pacheco is gonna give them a little bit of, you know, explosiveness on the ground. They got Elijah Mitchell and Breshard Smith this year in, in free agency. The, the problem last year, they had like one of the slowest run games I've ever seen. You know, they're

• 21:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  trotting Kareem Hunt out there as like one of their main guys and he, you know, he doesn't have any explosiveness left. He's a good tackle breaker, but not scaring anybody. So they have a little more explosiveness on, in the ground game. And then, like you said, the Josh Simmons thing, I actually circled that. I mocked Josh Simmons to the Chiefs and of, and of course it happened, you know, it's like one of those things where it's like just the perfect situation for them. It sounds like he's healthy. His tape was outstanding. He didn't face a ton of really high level competition early in the season, but I mean, he just, he looked like the best pass protecting left tackle in college football at that time. Like he was just, it looked easy for him.

• 21:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 21:50Speaker 04

  So, you know, getting a left tackle at that spot, pretty incredible. So if he can stay healthy, that's obviously a huge, huge boost for them.

• 21:57Bill Simmons?

  So first three weeks, they're playing the Chargers in San Paulo. God only knows what that field's gonna be.

• 22:03Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 22:04Bill Simmons?

  Eagles, week two at home and then at Giants, week three. And then Ravens, week four.

• 22:11Speaker 04

  Dang.

• 22:12Bill Simmons?

  So no Rashi Rice those first four weeks and I could see the same like, ah, Chiefs offense would. And then by midseason though.

• 22:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:20Bill Simmons?

  They'll be going, you know, I did that. I, you already knew that I had Allen as the top quarterback. And of course, a lot of people were upset about that. Mahomes fans and Chiefs fans. He was sixth in MVP last year.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  Six.

• 22:35Bill Simmons?

  He didn't even throw for 4,000 yards. And then he didn't win the Super Bowl and it's not like he was like amazing in the playoff games. I, I don't feel bad about it. I think Josh Allen, right now, in this moment, week to week as from, from a durability standpoint and just everything you want. It's still the best guy. If I had to bet my life on a guy for one game, I would still bet on Mahomes, but that's not the exercise. It's like, who would you rather have for an entire season?

• 23:03Speaker 04

  Right.

• 23:03Bill Simmons?

  And I just think Josh is the best, best guy for that question. I don't feel bad about it. I know you probably disagree.

• 23:09Speaker 04

  I mean, I think when you were talking, I was in my head thinking if I, if my life depends on one guy executing a drive in the fourth quarter, I'm going with Mahomes. So maybe that's why you go with that. But if, if you're explicitly saying like the full season, like big picture, complete package. I can understand it, but I still probably go with Mahomes. Just, it's, it's more of just like a lore and, and confidence in him getting it done in the crunch time type of thing than, than anything.

• 23:37Bill Simmons?

  Than Allen.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:38Bill Simmons?

  I went back and I watched the fourth quarter of the Chiefs Bills game. And I think I blocked the Kincaid play out of my mind. I forgot like how amazing Allen was on that play to get that pass off. And then if Kincaid catches it.

• 23:53Bill Simmons?

  It becomes this legendary Josh Allen comes through the Bills. Like you just think like, that's, that's why I think it's way closer. It's a good argument. It's what, uh, you know, way closer than people think. What do you have for the next type thing?

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Well, I'm surprised you haven't said this, so maybe I'm stealing it from you, but Travion Henderson as the new Jameer Gibbs or insert any super exciting explosive electric running back into that sentence. I, I, Travion Henderson like buzz.

• 24:20Bill Simmons?

  To be fair. I was hoping and praying you would bring it up. I was saving. I thought if it came from me, it wouldn't be as genuine.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  I am buying this so hard. I'm buying it 100%. You know, obviously it's very early, but the fact that he took his first NFL touch 100 yards for a touchdown is like, you kind of can't ignore that. The thing that I loved about him, you know, going back to the draft, I actually had him, I have him and Omar and Hampton right next to each other, but I had Henderson over Hampton just slightly because of some of the stuff he can do in the passing game and just the pure juice that he brings. He's just so explosive.

• 24:55Bill Simmons?

  And the pass blocking, which was like, they've never had a guy who had speed like this, but could also pass block.

• 25:02Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, you know, add in, everything you heard about him at Ohio State was just like, he is the alpha. He's the best guy. Everybody absolutely loves this guy so much in terms of just like the character and everything. So I am so excited about what he can bring to this offense. Obviously explosive element. You heard about, I think today, he had some 70 yard touchdown.

• 25:21Bill Simmons?

  Second play of the, yeah, the second, like I didn't follow that. Yeah. He's, he's breaking plays left and right. It's just, he gets in the open, he's just gone.

• 25:30Speaker 04

  I think it's like, simultaneously, you can't get, you can't buy in too much to the running back hype when it comes to the preseason because they're not hitting, sorry, you know, when it comes to like training camp and everything, because they're not hitting, they're not tackling as much. But with him, it's passing game and what they can do in him and with him in the passing game, vertical routes, like I've seen multiple highlights of him running down the sideline, whether it's wheel routes, vertical routes. I just think he's a really dynamic, big play creator, and it is going to give the Patriots the type of juice that they really do need in, on their offense. Like who else gives them juice right now? I mean,

• 26:08Bill Simmons?

  Kyle Williams is the other chance and then digs it becomes back, but they have way more speed than they had last year.

• 26:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. And so, and I think just in the NFL, this, in this era, you have to have explosive playmakers, you know, especially in an era when teams are trying so hard to limit the big play. Like this is the type of guy who can create big plays, who can, you know, in theory, get teams to kind of like load the box a little bit more because you start to threaten in the run game. I still think that they're going to use Remondre Stevenson quite a bit, but Trey Van Henderson as a complimentary, you know, the, the Jameer Gibbs, David Montgomery type of thing. I think he has some, some real potential and I am like unabashedly all in on this hype right now. I'm, I'm, I'm loving it.

• 26:50Bill Simmons?

  They've had no explosiveness, much like the Chiefs last year where if you don't have a couple of guys in the field who can scare you a little bit. So this Henderson thing, all if you just, if somebody stole my phone and looked at my texts, they're basically all about Roman Anthony, Trivion Henderson.

• 27:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:05Bill Simmons?

  And, uh, and whether Jason Tatum can come back by the All-Star break. But, um, so you mentioned Gibbs.

• 27:14Bill Simmons?

  And it's, first of all, Henderson, I think is still like 15 to one to be offensive rookie of the year on Fandel.

• 27:22Bill Simmons?

  It was something like that. Maybe it's gone down a little bit from, from, cause the hype has started. But you mentioned Gibbs and it's like, man, it would be amazing if he could be Jameer Gibbs. What Jameer, he's only been in the league two years, but they took him 12th and it was like, this is a weapon. This is this toy. Here are Gibbs' stats. His first year, 182 rushes for 945 yards and 10 touchdowns rushing. Then catching was 52 for 316. His longest catch and run was 20 yards.

• 27:53Speaker 04

  Oh, that's surprising.

• 27:54Bill Simmons?

  If Henderson doesn't, I'm sorry, 24 yards.

• 27:59Bill Simmons?

  If Henderson doesn't beat that, I'm going to be shocked.

• 28:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:04Bill Simmons?

  I think he can get, first of all, if he plays 17 games, if he stays on the field, which I think he can, cause he's one of those like short, all muscle, like he, I think he can cuss somebody. I watched him last week. The guy put his head down.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, he trucked a guy.

• 28:16Bill Simmons?

  Bulldozed him. He trucked him. But it's like, could he get 50 to 60 yards a week rushing, but then in the passing game, be like a 60 catch, but maybe like a 500 or 550 guy, because he'll break two or three during the season.

• 28:33Speaker 04

  Right.

• 28:33Bill Simmons?

  And then if that's the case, not only in the offensive rookie of the year combo, but you're in like, could you be an RB2 for somebody in fantasy, which I actually think he can.

• 28:42Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:43Bill Simmons?

  And the thing with him is they can pass block with them. McDaniel. I had some stealth quotes about him that did get recognized by the true Pats fans where he was comparing him to Danny Woodhead, Shane Vereen, James White, some of these third down backs. And he was just like, he's just has way more juice than, and I love those guys, but he has way more juice than those guys had and can block. So they've never really had anybody like this, but this is for what McDaniel's does. This is the kind of guy he loves. We've just never had a guy this talented in that spot. So I don't think you could do enough. Not only am I buying the hype, I'll buy everyone else's hype. I'm just, if there's an island, I'm buying condos on it. I'm ready to go. I am all in. And honestly, it's a miracle

• 29:27Bill Simmons?

  that he fell to 38. It's a miracle because Cleveland had 36 and took his teammate who's already gotten into trouble off the field. But in the moment, people were like, whoa, they took, it was honestly like a Nick Chubb's Sony Michelle situation where it's like, ooh, you took the wrong guy from the college. So it's to get that guy at 38 is a miracle. I can't believe it.

• 29:49Speaker 04

  There was a lot of buzz that he was going to be a first rounder coming into the draft. I think there was, you know, people taking the over on running backs in the first round, Gentey and whoever else it might've been, Trevion or whoever, and Hampton. And, you know, I think it's really just because he wasn't necessarily a quote unquote, full-time running back in college. Like, maybe that was the difference that he fell a little bit.

• 30:14Bill Simmons?

  I guess my question is, why couldn't he be? Or maybe he could be like a, could he be like a 17 carries a game guy, plus a pass catch guy, peek and block, and he's just built like a fucking truck? Like, why couldn't he play? We have short running backs. I don't know.

• 30:33Speaker 04

  He, I think he could. I think the worry is he was banged up several times in college.

• 30:37Bill Simmons?

  The wear and tear thing. Yeah, okay, I get it.

• 30:40Speaker 04

  But yeah, I mean, overall, you know, Where do running backs really differentiate themselves? I think big plays, passing game stuff, obviously breaking tackles. I don't know if he's like a huge tackle breaker, but I think what he is is a, you know,

• 30:53Bill Simmons?

  He's a nobody touches him guy.

• 30:55Speaker 04

  Right. He's like, you know, the pursuit angle killer. He, he, he gets past pursuit angles because he's so explosive. And so, um, I think, you know, he has the potential to be a really valuable player regardless of the position, just because of what he can do and how he protects the quarterback. You know, their first two picks were, the Patriots first two picks were designed to help protect Drake May, Will Campbell and Trevon Henderson. Those get both, both those guys are going to protect Drake May. So, um, I can see the logic. I think it was, you know, great job by the Patriots, obviously.

• 31:23Bill Simmons?

  Well, then, then the third round, they get a left guard. So they actually have the semblance of we can actually protect Drake May. Now they need Drake May to protect himself and not, you know, take on seven guys. Let's take a quick break and then we'll do the rest of the buy or sell guys. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly? If so, you need Fire TV. It shows you are live

• 32:07Bill Simmons?

  games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. All right, go ahead. You're up. Buy or sell?

• 32:22Speaker 04

  I am buying the Tetero McMillan hype that we're seeing in the preseason here.

• 32:26Bill Simmons?

  I'm surprised. I'm selling. I'll sell my, I'll sell mine to you.

• 32:30Speaker 04

  Okay, okay. I'll buy it. I'm, I'm scooping up as many shares as I can. I think he is exactly what Bryce Young needs, um, in terms of a true number one X receiver, a guy that can win in the short, middle, you know, and deep areas. Big body. And the important part is, I think he does what he does for the rest of the skill group for the Panthers. It's like a cascading effect where he's the true number one. You got Adam Thielen, who is a steely veteran. He could be the number two. He's not, at this point in his career, he's not going to be a good number one. Xavier Lee Gett, who they drafted in the first round, can be like an explosive after the catch playmaker, kind of design, manufacture some touches for him. He's not going to be a true number one type guy. And then they have a couple other players. Jalen Coker is getting

• 33:15Speaker 04

  some hype. And it kind of just rounds out that receiver group. I think Bryce Young can really, you know, continue what he did in the second half of last year, which was, I mean, one of the big storylines, obviously, kind of flew into the radar because the Panthers were so bad. But Bryce Young being really good in the second half of the year, obviously could be a type of thing where it saves Panthers franchise for the next like five years.

• 33:37Bill Simmons?

  Really good? How about, can we just go with good?

• 33:42Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 33:43Bill Simmons?

  Pretty good?

• 33:44Speaker 04

  You mean Bryce Young or just Ted McMillan?

• 33:46Bill Simmons?

  Bryce Young, like, I don't really good is.

• 33:50Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, I wouldn't put him in like the top 10 or anything like that.

• 33:53Bill Simmons?

  But he was.

• 33:54Speaker 04

  He was horrific to start his career.

• 33:56Bill Simmons?

  He was not a bust. And then it was like, ah, Bryce Young, pretty good.

• 34:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what to expect from him this year. Yeah.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  Why you out? Why you out?

• 34:07Bill Simmons?

  Big receivers, I feel like, take a little bit of a while, especially as rookies. And I, I just think they're counting on him too much. I can't remember that many guys just coming in right away, built like him, who are just reliable, dominant, number one receivers for a team. Like even DK, when he came in, the other DK, DK Metcalf.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  Right.

• 34:31Bill Simmons?

  Who I think had, if I remember correctly, a good rookie season. But he also was on a team that had other good receivers and, you know, they, they could kind of ease them in. And so that, that'd be the only thing I worry about with him.

• 34:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:43Bill Simmons?

  I have a receiver I was going to throw at you.

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 34:48Bill Simmons?

  As you know, one of my specialties is sniffing out the training camp quotes about people on a team when the quotes hit a certain level where you're like, oh, this feels real. And you can like Jaden Daniels was a good one last year. If you read anything about Jaden Daniels in Washington last year, every story, the way teammates talked about him, the way coaches talked about him, the media, the practices, it was like, shit, something's happening here. I didn't have the balls to pick them to make the playoffs, but it was like, clearly something special is happening with him.

• 35:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:22Bill Simmons?

  So there's a first round pick that's not Abdul Carter.

• 35:27Bill Simmons?

  That there's, this is happening for, and it's under the radar. And I'll be interested to see if you can guess it. I'll give you one guess.

• 35:34Speaker 04

  First round pick.

• 35:35Bill Simmons?

  It's somebody you like to went a tiny bit later than he was supposed to go.

• 35:40Speaker 04

  And it's a receiver?

• 35:42Bill Simmons?

  See, now I've given you hints. If I tell you that, you'll know the answer is.

• 35:47Speaker 04

  I was gonna say Emeka Ibuka.

• 35:49Bill Simmons?

  That's the answer.

• 35:50Speaker 04

  Yes. Yeah.

• 35:51Bill Simmons?

  Just Google, people listening, after you finish this, Google, Emeka Ibuka hype, and, and read all the stories. In fact, there's one right here from Buccaneers Wire. Hype continues to rise for Buccaneers top pick. But everyone's just like, this guy's awesome. And it's very similar to the Brian Thomas Jr. Last year where from the moment he got to the Jaguars, people were like, this guy's awesome.

• 36:15Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 36:16Bill Simmons?

  And the teammates were like, that guy's fucking awesome. We did this drill today and he toasted nine people and he's just, so he might just be really good, which to me like, I know, I know Werfs is out for a few weeks, but if Godwin can actually come back and be where he was before he got hurt, and you have Mike Evans there still, but then you have this other guy who could be this year's BTJ for all we know. Does that change how you think about the Bucks at all?

• 36:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I think it definitely gives them the boost that they need with, you know, Wirth's being out and them losing Liam Cohen. I think there's just question marks over what this offense is going to be like with with those types of losses, but everything that you've heard about him, I'm like, Buka so far, like you said, it's just been, they're not even asking people about him. And like, you got players talking about him like he's so, so great.

• 37:05Bill Simmons?

  That's when you know, this was like, this happened with your guy, Russell Wilson, rookie year. This is when I picked Seattle to make the Super Bowl because all the quotes were like, Russell Wilson, holy shit.

• 37:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:16Bill Simmons?

  This is unbelievable. I can't believe what he's doing. And it feels like that's the case with Ibuka.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Well, and it reminds me, it's funny, like another Homer pick for me. It reminds me a lot of Doug Baldwin's first training camp where Doug Baldwin, he was really under the radar, undrafted free agent. And so obviously, it's a little bit different because Ibuka was a first-rounder. But like, immediately upon getting to training camp, everyone watching, because in those days, you still can, you can just go watch Seahawks training camps. And everyone knew immediately, like, this guy's making the team. He's really good. He's probably their best receiver. Because he was just toasting people every day, like a big player, too, every day. I think that's what's happening with Ibuka. I mean, and it makes sense. He's like, really experienced, great hands, really good route runner, really good blocker, high character. He just has a really high floor. And that was kind of what I had

• 38:06Speaker 04

  ranked 13th overall in the draft, I think. And people were kind of not quite sure.

• 38:11Bill Simmons?

  Six, seven spots lower than that? Eight?

• 38:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:14Bill Simmons?

  Where do you go? In the 20s?

• 38:15Speaker 04

  I don't remember the top, off the top of my head, exactly.

• 38:18Bill Simmons?

  Because I remember he dropped because nobody needed a receiver for like, six, seven picks was the reason.

• 38:24Speaker 04

  And it was, I mean, I remember my reaction to the pick was like, oh, that's kind of weird, actually. Like, I didn't expect the Buccaneers. They just, I think, re-signed Chris Godwin to a big contract. Jalen McMillan last year was pretty good in the second half.

• 38:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, the GM, the GM basically said like, This guy was the best guy on our board. Like, we didn't even really need a receiver, but we couldn't not take him. So we took him.

• 38:46Speaker 04

  He was the 19th pick. But, you know, I think there was concerns that he did. He, number one, he's not like the most explosive guy. So I think people have sort of a bias against first round receiver should be super explosive.

• 38:58Bill Simmons?

  How are we still doing that? It's so fucking stupid.

• 39:00Speaker 04

  But he catches everything. You know, he's, he's a big body guy, really reliable. You know, I think Ohio State's all time leading receiver and that's like on teams with, you know, Chris Alave, Garrett Wilson. Like, obviously, he never led his team in receiving, but he, he was just so reliable, year in and year out. And, and he kind of fell off a little bit because he, he had some injuries that his production suffered a little bit.

• 39:22Bill Simmons?

  He's gonna be on all my fantasy teams. Just telling you now.

• 39:25Speaker 04

  I love him.

• 39:26Bill Simmons?

  What do you have as your next one?

• 39:28Speaker 04

  Uh, I'm going with, I'm selling the Jets, Justin Fields experiment. Speaking of Ohio State.

• 39:35Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Okay.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  I think for fantasy, it's gonna be good. So we have to delineate there because I think for fantasy, he's really exciting. He's, he's getting pushed up right now. I think I saw in one rank, he was QB 11. So he's getting pushed up the ranks.

• 39:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, because you figure he, if he's 10 for 70 rushing every week.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  I mean, yeah, he's gonna run the hell out of the ball. Their offensive line is pretty good, or it could be really good. But I mean, he, to me, Fields is one of those, he, he's a classic story of highly drafted quarterback goes to a bad team. You get stuck with multiple offensive coordinators throughout your first few years, get traded to, you know, and, and kind of, it's just like, it just never really happens. And I think with him, I, you know, you remember, I was really high on him. I thought he was gonna be a really good pro. But he just doesn't, he's, he just doesn't work quickly enough in the pocket. And I don't know if he can necessarily fix that. I think there will be good games here and there. But overall, I mean, if you look at some of the stats from last year when he was on the Steelers,

• 40:36Speaker 04

  39% success rate, which was 36th out of 39 quarterbacks that qualified, 12% sack rate, which was dead last, 45% pressure rate, which was dead last among those 39 quarterbacks. He just takes too many sacks. He doesn't, he can't, he doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough. And I don't.

• 40:53Bill Simmons?

  You feel like when you're down 10 with him in the fourth quarter, the game's over?

• 40:56Speaker 04

  That's what I was gonna say next is basically like, they have to have the game script. That's kind of just perfect for what he does. And so,

• 41:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if you're up 13 to six with 10 minutes left, it's great. Run, run, run, play action, then you're okay with them.

• 41:12Speaker 04

  So I'm in on, I'm in on the fantasy portion of it, but and I don't know if anyone's really that excited, but this last preseason game, like he looked pretty, there was some exciting plays and he ran in for a touchdown. So I'm trying not to let myself get too excited about the Justin Fields thing because I bought into the field stuff earlier in his career and I don't want to fall for it again.

• 41:31Bill Simmons?

  I've, I've test drove, the jet's over. You know, because I had to figure.

• 41:35Speaker 04

  What is that right now?

• 41:37Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's low. It's, I think it's five and a half.

• 41:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 41:41Bill Simmons?

  Their schedule's pretty hard. Especially if the Dolphins end up being good, which I don't think they will be, but um, you know, I think the Pats are going to be better and the Bills are in there and then, but I can't get there. I think it'll be, they'll, they'll have two upsets during the season.

• 41:58Bill Simmons?

  Where they run the ball really well. They have a lead. They don't have a turnover and they,

• 42:02Speaker 04

  Right.

• 42:02Bill Simmons?

  You know, that, I could see them being a tease buster, but I'm with you on Fields. I just thought it was too hard for him.

• 42:11Bill Simmons?

  When they, when you actually need your quarterback to move the ball down the field and throw the ball. I just don't think he can do it.

• 42:17Speaker 04

  Also, they don't have any receivers after Garrett Wilson. I mean, their number two right now is, I think Josh Reynolds.

• 42:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 04

  You know, then they have a rookie, rookie tight end. You can't, you can't expect a rookie tight end to elevate an offense. It rarely happens. I mean, Brock Bowers is a special, special player.

• 42:32Speaker 04

  So.

• 42:32Bill Simmons?

  I think it's, I think it's going to happen with Tyler Warren a little bit on the Colts.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  Oh, he was.

• 42:36Bill Simmons?

  I'm happy to throw in there on the hype list.

• 42:38Speaker 04

  Do that. Let's do that.

• 42:40Bill Simmons?

  I just think he should have been the first tight end. I like that he didn't go first because now he's got the chip on the shoulder that he didn't go first.

• 42:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:47Bill Simmons?

  They actually really need him. They have two quarterbacks that I don't trust with wide receivers at all, and they're probably going to be throwing them the ball anyway. So I just, he's jumping out to me as, you know, Bowers is above everybody and then Kittle. But then if you go into that next tier.

• 43:06Bill Simmons?

  I like, am I gonna pay $15 for whoever and I can try to get this guy instead at four or five? Like, I'm just gonna do that.

• 43:13Speaker 04

  Yeah. How surprised are you gonna be if he's the top receiver on that team this year?

• 43:17Bill Simmons?

  He might be.

• 43:18Speaker 04

  And now Pittman broke his back last year and he's like,

• 43:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't trust him.

• 43:23Speaker 04

  It's hard to trust him. Josh Downs, I think is a really good player, but who knows what's going on with his quarterback situation. I think that they're gonna scheme up like three to four plays a game for Tyler Warren and that's like his floor, you know, in the sensor, you're doing screens, RPOs, maybe even get him in the backfield a little bit. He did that a ton, actually, at Penn State. I don't know if they'll do that in the NFL when you have Jonathan Taylor back there, too. But, you know, get creative with, with what he can bring as a run after catch guy. And he's kind of in that. I don't think he's the level of, you know, like, player that George Kittle is clearly at this point in his career, but he brings the run after catch ability. I think that's like reminiscent of Kittle, where he's just trucking dudes, jumping over them, stiff-arming them, things like that.

• 44:09Bill Simmons?

  I loved him in the draft. Like, he was too high for the Pats to take at four, but if they had traded back a couple of spots and taken him, I wouldn't have been furious about it. I couldn't believe he fell to 14. I just, there's no way he was not one of the best 13 guys in the draft. So we'll see. And the Levland, I don't know, that seemed to be more of a higher ceiling pick, but Warren seems really, really good to me. What, was that you or me? Who's up? You?

• 44:34Speaker 04

  That was you.

• 44:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you're up.

• 44:37Speaker 04

  Let's see.

• 44:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm saving my big one for last.

• 44:40Speaker 04

  I feel very torn on this, so I'm gonna just, I'm just gonna send it. I'm buying the Jags revival with Liam Cohen.

• 44:50Bill Simmons?

  How can you do this?

• 44:54Speaker 04

  There's no, there's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that they'll be bad again, right? No, I mean, obviously, this goes against my, my better judgment. We do this every year, I feel like. But I don't know, the Travis Hunter being able to play on both sides of the ball, I think that will make an impact. I don't know if he's gonna be, you know, a massive, massive impact year one on both sides of the ball. I think the Liam Cohen thing is really what I'm excited about the most, though, like. Getting a coherent offense, you know, getting Trevor Lawrence kind of into his groove, hopefully a little bit where he's not, you know, making these just ill-advised throws and doing the kinds of things that he's done the last couple of years.

• 45:31Bill Simmons?

  We were doing so well.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  The, they, the other thing here that I will say, and I think this does matter, is they have the sixth easiest schedule per Warren Sharp. So they're in a bad division with a good play calling, new head coach, get that bump. Brian Thomas Jr., explosive playmaker, Travis Hunter, another explosive playmaker. God, why am I doing this? I don't know why I'm doing this, but I am.

• 45:53Bill Simmons?

  You should know, since you had a shitty offensive line last year on your favorite team, the Seattle Seahawks.

• 45:59Speaker 04

  Hey, they won 10 games.

• 46:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but you had a way better all-around team like this. Their line's gonna be the combo of the offensive line and Lawrence. Why, why am I gonna feel good about that? Not to mention, do you, the, Travis Etienne and, uh, who's the other dude?

• 46:16Speaker 04

  Tank Bigsby.

• 46:17Bill Simmons?

  Bigsby, like they still haven't figured that out. People are trying to get us to get the Travis comeback year. No, thanks. Had him last year for like 30 bucks.

• 46:27Bill Simmons?

  The only case for them, because I did look at this. Cause it's like, I, I'm, and I'm, I'm gonna spend the next week trying to figure out who I settle on here for the out of nowhere team. Last year I had Pittsburgh and I nailed it. Everyone was off Pittsburgh, everyone had them third place and, you know, 500 team. And I was trying to figure out who is the out of nowhere playoff team? Because we have all of the ones people always talk about. Could Jacksonville be the team? The case would be the first three weeks where they're home for the Panthers, they're at Cincinnati, who always starts out slow. And then like an upset against Houston. And now they're playing at San Francisco in week four, McCaffrey's already hurt.

• 47:10Bill Simmons?

  And now they're, now it's like the Jaguars are 4-0, oh my God. Travis Hunter, what a trade. And so I was trying to play it out in my head and I just, I can't get there. But they have, they're a third place schedule, which means they get the Jets, Bengals and Panthers, which I don't mind. But they do have to play the AFC West and then the NFC West, who, we'll see if they're any good, but.

• 47:35Bill Simmons?

  I can't quite get there with Lawrence. Lawrence to me is like, you're gonna have to shock me and prove that you're actually good again. But I don't know, I respect the hype. So I'm buying it, you're selling it. Can we just do McCaffrey quick? Cause it's a blind sell for me. People are trying to hype me back. Don't be surprised if he's the number one fantasy guy again. Guess what? I'm gonna be surprised. The guy's cannot stay in the field. He's older. And I just don't see it. And I think it's the worst kind of fantasy guy to have because you're spending, you're not spending $60 anymore, but you're still in the 40s and maybe you're even in a bidding war with your drunk buddy. And now I'm up to 49 and I really want him.

• 48:16Bill Simmons?

  And now, oh fuck, now I'm paying 50. And then two weeks in, it's like, I'm having, I have a, my Achilles is starting to feel tired now and I got the red flag. Oh no, McCaffrey is the red flag. What happened? Oh, tendonitis. Oh no, he's gonna play. Nope, he's not playing. Oh, he's out. Whoa, he's getting going to see a specialist. I'm out. I'm not doing it. No, thank you.

• 48:39Speaker 04

  He's going to Germany to do some stuff.

• 48:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'm out. I'm out. We've all been there with him and no thank you anymore.

• 48:45Speaker 04

  I think the only argument, the counter to that is when he's on the field, he has been the best fantasy. He's the best fantasy player of this generation, right?

• 48:55Bill Simmons?

  But this, this begs the question, is it better to not have that at all in your life or to have tasted it? And then it gets pulled away when they get red flagged. You're like, oh man, I had those three weeks of McCaffrey and it was so great. I'd almost rather not know what it feels like.

• 49:12Speaker 04

  I totally understand what you're saying though. I think it's, it's tough. Ultimately, you don't want to, you're not trying to get seventh place in your league. You're trying to get first place. And so.

• 49:21Bill Simmons?

  This was your, this was your, your Achan last year. This was your, this was your theory on this. Go for the gusto.

• 49:29Speaker 04

  Yeah. And, but I will say. McCaffrey and Shanahan lied to our faces last year about like what he was gonna be and which obviously whatever that's their prerogative but from a fantasy point of view it's easier to do this when coaches and players are honest about kind of like where they are so I don't trust that team and then the hard the worst part and this is something I experienced is trying to figure out the handcuff situation to McCaffrey like with a lot of players it's like oh if I if I get this guy I'll just grab his backup and then that way I'm insured against this injury or whatever I could still get this team's run game.

• 50:08Bill Simmons?

  But now you're spending $7 on his backup.

• 50:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, but the end the 49ers are the most cursed team I've ever seen in my life when it comes to running back injuries. Every one of their running backs just constantly gets hurt. So you're like playing whack a mole trying to figure out who to play weekend and week out. Is it Isaac Guerendo? Is it Jordan James? Is it you know Jeff Wilson who I think they just resigned? It's like I just and then who knows what Shanahan's who's gonna be in Shanahan's doghouse this week. So I think it's you know, obviously the upside of of hitting on McCaffrey and getting the you know, he's literally like an RB1 and a wide receiver two or three in one spot in your roster, which is immensely valuable. So the upside is is worth I think worth betting on, but it's gonna be a miserable experience for you. You're gonna probably, you know, every

• 50:55Speaker 04

  time a little red cross is next to his name, you know, on the app, it's just gonna stress you out. So it just depends on how much risk you want to take on.

• 51:04Bill Simmons?

  The problem is there's no value for it because you're overpaying.

• 51:07Speaker 04

  Right, yeah.

• 51:08Bill Simmons?

  Wow, being worried about the red flag, which is the worst place to be in fantasy. Let's do a couple of quick ones, but before we do that, I just want to say Shador is off the table.

• 51:20Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 51:22Speaker 04

  We're not talking about it or what?

• 51:26Bill Simmons?

  Who knows? I'm rooting for it. It would be fun if the Browns had a good QB, but the people going nuts about week one preseason, like it's fine just to not have an opinion sometimes. It's like, that's cool. He wasn't a disaster.

• 51:39Speaker 04

  Right.

• 51:39Bill Simmons?

  Okay. It doesn't mean anything. You know, I don't know. I, I, I hope it happens for him. I'm in the camp of, I thought he should have gone in the first two rounds.

• 51:50Speaker 04

  Right.

• 51:50Bill Simmons?

  I, it's hard for me to believe he's not a starter. It's hard for me to believe New Orleans couldn't have used him. But I'm not, I'm not going to be like, well, see what he did in week one preseason. Like just stop.

• 52:01Speaker 04

  Yeah. Also, it's funny because the only reason he started that game is several, three guys were hurt.

• 52:07Bill Simmons?

  Guys got hurt.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Right. It was just like, man.

• 52:09Bill Simmons?

  So what's your next one?

• 52:11Speaker 04

  I, I actually just want to get your take on this. I'm selling the Aaron Rodgers Steelers thing, but I want to know what you think about it.

• 52:17Bill Simmons?

  Oh, not only have I sold it, the, I knocked down the house. I, I'm not only to sell that house, I knocked it down for the new owner. I, I couldn't be more out. Sheil made the key point. Brady's the only one over 42 who even played 10 games. I thought Rogers sucked last year. I don't think he wants to get hit anymore. Uh, I don't love their offensive line. I don't think the team, I, I'm very nervous about that team in general. And I think it would be shocking if he was good on the Steelers with all the evidence we have following football. For him, for what we saw last year, to him all of a sudden being good for the Steelers and them going 12 and 5, like, honestly, what are the odds of that? Like seven to one, eight to one?

• 53:01Bill Simmons?

  He's just gonna be good? He's gonna like getting hit again? Last year was an aberration?

• 53:06Speaker 04

  There, there are, I will say there's like, and I'm completely with you on this, but there, there are, I've seen stories and I've listened to, and I've heard a few on podcasts, like, Aaron Rodgers kind of feels like a different guy this year. You know, he's come in there and like his, all his teammates love him, all this stuff. And I'm just like, I don't know.

• 53:24Bill Simmons?

  It's over. He's 42. It's over. Even if you lose like a split second of your reaction time on stuff, combined with that, his, the lower half of his body had this traumatic injury that it would be one thing if he was 27, but you know, he's got a repaired Achilles. He's 42. He's not the biggest guy in the world.

• 53:43Speaker 04

  Him and DK Metcalf is a very funny combo too, like from a schematic and stylistic point of view.

• 53:49Bill Simmons?

  What about the first time he says something stupid?

• 53:52Speaker 04

  Or Arthur Smith?

• 53:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I just think there's so many ways to go wrong. All right, I'll give you my last one.

• 53:57Speaker 04

  All right.

• 53:59Bill Simmons?

  I've already talked about them multiple times on the pod. To my horror, I was listening to the Ringer gambling show, excellent, the excellent East Coast bias show as they did the AFC West. And all three of them got excited about this team and it feels like there's too many people on the bandwagon. I'm getting nervous, but the Broncos were my favorite team. I actually think they're underrated. I think they are a live chance for them to buy the, to win the AFC West.

• 54:26Bill Simmons?

  I just think they're going to be really good. I think they're an actual contender. I really think that. And now it feels like people are coming on the bandwagon because nobody can figure out another, another team that's like this year's basically Lions of like, oh, this team was good last year. Now they're going to be this. And they're the most obvious candidate. Then Slater goes down for the Chargers.

• 54:47Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:48Bill Simmons?

  And you're like, whoa, that, there's another reason the Broncos are going to be better than Chargers. And now I'm worried it looks too obvious. So I'm not selling the hype.

• 54:56Speaker 04

  Right.

• 54:56Bill Simmons?

  I just wish that, I wish I could calm down the hype. I wish I could create like a fake news story to get people out the scent like, eh, Bo Nix might, might, uh, might not be able to start the season. Mr. Injury. Like I almost want to throw people off the scent.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  I, yeah, I've, the contrarian in me that like the, the Broncos hype, that is like maybe the top one where I'm just like the contrarian in me. For whatever reason, everybody loves the Broncos.

• 55:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, a hundred percent. Like everybody loves the Broncos and I have kind of a long running bit of, I'm anti Sean Payton, but that's like fantasy wise.

• 55:28Speaker 04

  Like he's actually a good, he's a good real life coach. He just annoys me in fantasy because he. You know, platoons every position and it's really hard to guess like whoever he's gonna like that week, but I don't know. To me, it's just, you know, we saw CJ Stroud have a huge slump in his second year as teams started to kind of figure out what your fastball is and some of the best things that you're doing. I don't think, you know, I'm not fading Knicks by any means, but I think there's a chance like he could be a little worse than he was as a rookie and that wouldn't be super surprising. Their defense obviously is really good.

• 55:58Bill Simmons?

  Way harder schedule.

• 55:59Speaker 04

  Yeah, really hard schedule. Their defense, I mean, their defense is great, but with everything, you know, how healthy can they stay? Can they, can they continue to do what they're doing up front? And then, you know, I think defense is harder to predict year in and year out. Like it's less consistent year in and year out. So I don't know. To me, I'm like, I don't have like a real argument against the Broncos, but the contrarian in me, it's just like that. That's like the, the bells are going off. Like everybody loves the Broncos this year. And so like, that's just kind of my reaction to it.

• 56:32Bill Simmons?

  They checked the most boxes I've seen for a leap team in a while, including week one, home, Tennessee Titans. Week two, at the Colts, who are already probably changed QBs.

• 56:45Speaker 04

  Right.

• 56:45Bill Simmons?

  Week three at the Chargers. Week four, home Bengals, Monday night. And then week five at Eagles, which could be a 4-0 against 4-0. Like I'm already ready for it. I, so I like it too much. I want it to calm down. I need to like, this is like a relationship in college. I want them to like be mean to me for a day. So I don't like them as much.

• 57:06Speaker 04

  Right. Your spidey sense is tingling right now. I think you're, you're feeling the, you want a zag.

• 57:10Bill Simmons?

  Too many checks. Too many check marks. And I was trying to think what another zag team would be. Cause we do this every year and that's what I'm gonna try to figure out over there.

• 57:21Speaker 04

  Going to be bad, that will be good or the vice versa?

• 57:24Bill Simmons?

  That. There's always a team. There's always a team like it's gonna be like the Giants. I'm not saying it's gonna be the Giants, but that's what I really want to figure out is like, who is the team everyone thinks is gonna be shitty? And it's gonna, I'm telling you, they're gonna make the playoffs. Last year was Washington. Even the Patriots, I think people are expecting they're gonna be pretty good. It's a team like the Panthers. No, cuz I think there's cases for Falcons. It's like Panthers, Jags, Giants, the Titans. That would be like, the Titans is a great one.

• 57:56Speaker 04

  The Titans is the one.

• 57:57Bill Simmons?

  Vegas, the Jets, it's those kind of teams. One of them's gonna make the playoffs. Just how the league goes.

• 58:03Speaker 04

  Not the Browns.

• 58:05Bill Simmons?

  Not the Browns. I've crossed off the Browns and the Saints all over the place. Those are my two cross off already.

• 58:12Speaker 04

  I think, you know what? I'm not like saying the Saints are gonna win the division, but the Saints have been my surprisingly, surprisingly competent team. Because just everyone, like for every reason, again, it's a contrarian thing where everyone says the Saints are going to suck. Everyone thinks the Saints are, it's like a fact, the Saints suck. And that's the way that we've talked about them this offseason. And for every reason that just, you know, it like ignites my, my contrarian-ness. And I, and I just want, like the Saints, for whatever reason, they always kind of figure out a way to be competitive, especially in that division. The quarterback situation is obviously very concerning. But, you know, I don't know, maybe Kellen Moore goes in there and they kind of just run this funky offense

• 58:54Speaker 04

  that people don't know what to do with and they eke out some wins and.

• 58:58Bill Simmons?

  Are we even sure Kellen Moore is good?

• 59:00Speaker 04

  No, I don't know.

• 59:01Bill Simmons?

  To me, like the QB coach, the QB coach combo, which is the easiest way to figure all this stuff out.

• 59:06Speaker 04

  Right.

• 59:07Bill Simmons?

  They've got to be one of the lowest, even the Browns, because Stefanski is better than Kellen Moore.

• 59:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 59:12Bill Simmons?

  Even they might have a higher number.

• 59:14Speaker 04

  I'm not saying it makes any sense. It just, that's the team that I've been contrarian on because it just feels like everyone is stating as a fact that the Saints are awful.

• 59:23Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's one thing I have noticed. The people covering the team are talking about how it's way more professional this year. Like, they are, we are going from Dennis Allen and whoever the guy was that Cam Jordan annihilated on the podcast. You see that? About the defensive line coach? It was the worst coach he's ever had?

• 59:41Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh. No, I didn't see that.

• 59:42Bill Simmons?

  But anyway, their, their over is five and a half and it's already plus 125. The, the, the last thing, and then we'll go, because I already kept you a half hour longer than I thought we were gonna go. I think Seattle is in the mix for, I didn't realize that they were gonna be good. Because you think last year, they hit their draft a year ago, as you know.

• 1:00:03Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Bill Simmons?

  The reasons people are off the scent this year are basically like they downgraded at receiver. And they changed QBs. You could argue Darnold's better than Geno Smith. In fact, I'll make the argument right now. It's year two McDonald's. They had another good draft. And they're in a division that I'm not sure anyone in the division is good. Because this Matthew Stafford, who

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  House of Cards.

• 1:00:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Matthew Stafford wasn't that good for most of the season last year, and then got better as it went along, and then was really good in the playoff game. But for the entirety of the season, like, we were wondering what was going on with him. The Niners, who knows? I don't like Arizona at all. And could Seattle just be like, oh shit, I guess it's Seattle. Their, their odds are, they're plus 550 for the division. That's crazy. Nobody should have odds like that in that division.

• 1:00:52Speaker 04

  I mean, they almost won the division last year.

• 1:00:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:54Speaker 04

  So I think logically and on paper, I would say they downgraded going from Geno Smith and DK Metcalf to Sam Darnold and Cooper Cup.

• 1:01:05Bill Simmons?

  No question.

• 1:01:06Speaker 04

  However, the scheme, the change in scheme is like the big X factor for the Seahawks this year. It could be a force multiplier for them on offense, because they're going from what was one of the pass heaviest offenses in the NFL last year in terms of expected pass rate, to I'm sure they're going to run the hell out of the ball this year. Like, that's why they brought Clint Kubiak in, this wide zone offense. I think in theory, it fits Kenneth Walker really well. It could help their offensive line start to get some continuity in terms of like, They drafted Gray Zabel who's got rave reviews out of training camp and he looked good in his first preseason game. Looks like Abraham Lucas, their right tackle is going to be right now. He's looking like he will be healthy and able to start Charles.

• 1:01:46Speaker 04

  Charles Cross can be a good left tackle. I think there's some pieces there that they're working with that could emerge on the offensive line to make it. A not bottom five unit, which is kind of what they've been the last few years.

• 1:01:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I had you as a minus one before the season, but I might take the minus one off.

• 1:02:02Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Bill Simmons?

  Cause the offensive line, people seem to think, eh, it might be actually fairly competent.

• 1:02:07Speaker 04

  It's like a scheme thing. Can the scheme hide some of the warts that they had last year in terms of like? Maybe this just works better where they're, they're attacking, running the football, you know, all that stuff. And then defensively. You know, there's a, I'm trying hard not to like buy too much into the hype because this is another one that's. Gotten tons of press around where I live. It's like the Seahawks could have a top five defense. Like. A lot of people, a lot of smart people who know what they're talking about are looking at this scheme with Mike McDonald and some of the defense, some of the talent they've amassed on defense. It's a.

• 1:02:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, you have two big motherfuckers in the middle.

• 1:02:41Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:02:42Bill Simmons?

  That, you know, maybe five teams have two guys like that.

• 1:02:46Speaker 04

  I mean, Leonard Williams was one of the most unsung elite players, I think, last year on defense. And then Byron Murphy, they drafted last year in the first round, and I think he had a good rookie season, could have a really good, you know, second season.

• 1:02:58Bill Simmons?

  Got hurt. He got hurt and he played hurt.

• 1:03:01Speaker 04

  And I, he was like.

• 1:03:04Speaker 04

  I think so. Yeah. And he was one of my favorite players coming in.

• 1:03:07Bill Simmons?

  I like him.

• 1:03:08Speaker 04

  I can't.

• 1:03:08Bill Simmons?

  I think, I think the Seattle defense and the Pats defense are very similar for me. In that I actually think the ceiling of each defense could be top five.

• 1:03:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Bill Simmons?

  Especially because your secondary is really good.

• 1:03:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, they have so much talent in their secondary.

• 1:03:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Speaker 04

  Devin Witherspoon, another draft pick from a couple of years ago. So I don't know. They have the pieces. I think like you could make an argument, certainly this year. The other one I wanted to bring up is Tory Hart, and this is like too much of a deep cut, but their fifth round receiver is. Another one of those guys that's in the category of just making two or two or three big plays every day.

• 1:03:41Bill Simmons?

  You gotta send me some of the quotes.

• 1:03:43Speaker 04

  Hearing everything about him, man.

• 1:03:44Bill Simmons?

  Maybe I'll sleuth it tonight. I want to find for myself.

• 1:03:47Speaker 04

  Look up Tory Horton, who, and, and look, I'm obviously in the Seahawks text thread, you know, streets where it's people really into the Seahawks. But, I mean, I got so many messages and texts about Tory Horton when they drafted him, when the Seahawks drafted him. They were like, this guy is so much better than a fifth-rounder. You're gonna love this guy. He was my favorite player at Colorado State. You know, it's, I got a ton of people telling me that, like, you're gonna love this guy. And then, everything that we've seen since then is like, he's been really good at practice. He had a couple of big catches in this last game, in the preseason game. So, I don't know. Again, this is like, way too deep cut for probably the national side of things, but, um, people are really excited about Tory Horton here in Seahawks land.

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  Pat's excitement, Seattle excitement. We're back, Danny Kelly.

• 1:04:33Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:04:34Bill Simmons?

  Thanks for hyping it up with me. Good to see you. And don't forget, Ringer Fantasy, so what, when's the big, we're doing our draft on August 25th?

• 1:04:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it's in a couple of weeks here. Let's see.

• 1:04:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's, we're less than two weeks away.

• 1:04:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, August 25th. I'm gonna be in LA soon.

• 1:04:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I'll see you in LA. All right. Thanks, Danny Kelly.

• 1:04:51Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:04:52Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras, and watch Tip Off Plus as the official beer sponsor of the NBA. Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details.

• 1:05:34Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes. Yet it's proven time and time again that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 as a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FDIC.

• 1:06:14Speaker 05

  Boston, New York, New York, Boston. All right, let's go.

• 1:06:18Speaker 05

  Also, I'd like to say, thank you for having me on and let's have some fun.

• 1:06:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you do the intro for me. I don't even do that. I wore my Celtics shirt. We're a little wounded these days.

• 1:06:27Speaker 05

  Get out the car.

• 1:06:29Bill Simmons?

  Well, you made this movie. You put like 17 slanderous Boston things in there. Eh, maybe 15.

• 1:06:37Bill Simmons?

  Nine? There's a Larry, Rick Fox took a Larry Bird shot. He played with Larry Bird.

• 1:06:43Speaker 05

  Also like to say, quick story. You know, I've done several commercials for, uh,

• 1:06:50Speaker 05

  and, uh, one of these spots.

• 1:06:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Speaker 05

  It's Larry Bird.

• 1:06:55Bill Simmons?

  Which one? McDonald's?

• 1:06:56Speaker 05

  What did I do with Sam and Magic, you know, and Charles?

• 1:06:59Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the bank ones. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:00Speaker 05

  Yeah. And so I was really scared. Larry Bird, I mean.

• 1:07:07Bill Simmons?

  If you saw any of the movies from the eighties.

• 1:07:09Speaker 05

  She's gonna have it. John Savage.

• 1:07:11Bill Simmons?

  John Savage. It's a two minute scene.

• 1:07:13Speaker 05

  The gentifier is wearing it. So I was really scared. I knocked on the door and said, who is that? I said, Spike, can I come in? Come on in, Spike. Sit down, sit down. And I, because I mean, we have a commercial again. I don't know this, those, all those. So he says, he says, Spike, look, we're good.

• 1:07:33Speaker 06

  That that means so much to me. Cause I never anything. I love Larry Bird. But the thing for me was that he was positioned in the press as being the great white hope.

• 1:07:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:44Speaker 06

  And Larry, that wasn't him. He just wanted to bust your ass.

• 1:07:47Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:07:47Speaker 06

  So he didn't, he didn't know all this, I mean, I mean, new, but he wasn't all this, this mythology was put up behind him. So that's what I was talking about. Well, nothing to do with Larry Bird.

• 1:07:58Bill Simmons?

  We tried to hit that in the Celtics documentary we did for HBO about he's positioned as this great white hope. But meanwhile, he's way more talented than that. And he wanted no part of it at all.

• 1:08:09Speaker 06

  Yes. Look, I got number love for Larry. I mean, he, he just wanted to bust your ass. And that's it. It wasn't his fault. He was put in that position.

• 1:08:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:21Speaker 06

  I remember like going to Old Garden with the, the Larry Bird was at the Boston Garden at 6:00 AM and took 10,000 shots. You know, like, and like, we come out of the womb, but dunk it.

• 1:08:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:08:34Speaker 06

  No hard work, no expertise, you know. But anyway, how you doing?

• 1:08:38Bill Simmons?

  I want to talk basketball first and then go into movies.

• 1:08:41Speaker 06

  This is our year.

• 1:08:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, we haven't seen you. The last time we did a pod was, was pre-COVID. At our two studios ago and then.

• 1:08:49Speaker 06

  Hey, you got a setup here.

• 1:08:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, now I got, now I brought you in and, uh, but I haven't seen you since the Knicks got good again. And then we had a little passing of the torch. They beat the Celtics. Did you go to all, you, you, weren't you promoting a movie at some point during that series, right?

• 1:09:05Speaker 06

  Nah, I just didn't go to Boston.

• 1:09:07Bill Simmons?

  You didn't go to Boston? You won't go to Boston?

• 1:09:12Speaker 06

  You know, me and Coach are really good friends. He came, he came to my office.

• 1:09:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 06

  There's a picture on Instagram you could, you could use, you know, uh, in front of my. I'm pointing at him, he's pointing at me. We got the Nick team behind on the, the front of my office, but he, I love him as a coach. And, uh, I like to say this, uh.

• 1:09:36Speaker 05

  A couple of weeks ago, I was invited to a mama's birthday party, a mama's venue, and Jason was there.

• 1:09:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Speaker 05

  So I just gave him a hug and said, you know, wish him a speedy, I don't want to see nobody get hurt.

• 1:09:48Bill Simmons?

  Were you at that game? You were, right?

• 1:09:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:09:51Bill Simmons?

  Did you know right away?

• 1:09:53Speaker 05

  I knew it was bad.

• 1:09:54Bill Simmons?

  It's like pretty close to where you were sitting.

• 1:09:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, I knew it was bad and also Halliburton and Dame. You know, they all wear the number zero. You know that?

• 1:10:06Bill Simmons?

  I know. I don't, I don't know if that's a coincidence or something.

• 1:10:09Speaker 05

  I told, I told Jason, I said, I laid it down, you know, what it was and he said, are you gonna wear number zero? I said, yes, I don't know, he says he's gonna keep it.

• 1:10:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm trying to figure out why all these young guys are getting hurt because the generation that-

• 1:10:22Speaker 05

  And I'm wearing high tops.

• 1:10:24Bill Simmons?

  Well, you think that's it? Because I've heard the high tops theory. That's definitely one of them. I also feel like there's way more running in basketball now than there used to be with the three point line.

• 1:10:32Speaker 05

  Well.

• 1:10:33Bill Simmons?

  A lot of like sprinting out, trying to hedge over, flying over this way.

• 1:10:36Speaker 05

  I just think that uh

• 1:10:40Speaker 05

  there's reason why players wore chucks.

• 1:10:43Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:10:44Speaker 05

  Con, converse.

• 1:10:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, they would just have knee injuries back then. Now it's like, it seems like everything's moved toward the feet and the ankles.

• 1:10:49Speaker 05

  Something I should do is study because uh

• 1:10:53Speaker 05

  it seems like a wave of this type of injury and you know, when you get that, you're out for a year.

• 1:10:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, the Tatum thing was interesting because he gets hurt. He's in New York, the best Achilles doctor is in New York. He's on the operating table 10 hours later.

• 1:11:08Speaker 05

  The operation was in New York?

• 1:11:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And they were saying like, that actually might've been good for him, that he was able to get it because that's what Kobe did too. And Kobe actually came back pretty fast, but then had a different injury.

• 1:11:19Speaker 05

  Kobe was in New Orleans, so let's push him.

• 1:11:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 05

  Put him to the side.

• 1:11:24Bill Simmons?

  But that's Tatum's work ethic idol though. I haven't seen you since Kobe died either. You were, you were actually like legit friends with him because-

• 1:11:32Speaker 05

  Well, we weren't great friends, but I, I had to be there. And we did this thing called Kobe Doing Work.

• 1:11:39Bill Simmons?

  I remember at ESPN.

• 1:11:40Speaker 05

  And listen to this though. So we didn't want to put it out, tweet it, do a commentary. And looked on the schedule, he said, Spike, let's do it after we kick the Knicks ass. And that's the game we set the record for the Garden. I had the, the stat sheet, he signs it, Spike, this shit was all your fault.

• 1:12:03Bill Simmons?

  Is that story true that he almost backed out at the 11th hour? Kobe doing work, the day of the game? And you had to go to the house and convince him to do it? I always heard like urban legend, I never knew what was true and wasn't true.

• 1:12:15Speaker 05

  We were ready and for some reason he says, I'm not doing it.

• 1:12:19Bill Simmons?

  Like, and you had the 24 cameras or whatever it was, you're ready to go?

• 1:12:23Speaker 05

  I was freaking out.

• 1:12:26Speaker 05

  And then lay a line of something, he gave me like the thumbs up.

• 1:12:33Bill Simmons?

  That was close. You think he was like just testing you?

• 1:12:35Speaker 05

  I don't know. But it didn't matter what it was.

• 1:12:42Speaker 05

  It will be

• 1:12:45Speaker 05

  will not be what intended if.

• 1:12:49Bill Simmons?

  What do you got?

• 1:12:50Speaker 05

  50 anniversary of, uh.

• 1:12:51Bill Simmons?

  I know, I know.

• 1:12:53Speaker 05

  But, uh, I have a house in Morris Avenue. Anyway. Thank God that Kobe said, uh, gave me the thumbs up and, uh, we did it.

• 1:13:02Bill Simmons?

  You know what I'm saying? You know, everyone talks about the GOAT stuff and basketball is against basketball players. And yet with directors and actors, we don't do it that way. It's just like you basically either make some list. I like we don't do it like that. I think it's better, and I'm partially probably responsible for the, for the GOAT, the rank, like I've certainly. You started it? Well, I was, I definitely was involved. But with, with, uh, actors and with directors, it's more like you move into this, this kind of area. But nobody cares about the ranking of the area. It's more like you kind of know who's there and who's not.

• 1:13:33Speaker 05

  I, I think there's a, I don't know what the word is, but I'm so tired of this LeBron.

• 1:13:42Speaker 05

  There's a GOAT thing is going on forever. And then you say this, well, Kareem's not in there. It's just, I, I don't, I don't think it's what's the purpose? If you think LeBron is, or you think Michael is, you think Will or whoever you, you know, Kareem? Good, but why do we have to spend time?

• 1:14:07Speaker 06

  Like disgustingness.

• 1:14:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and plus, people are gonna have their opinion on it. They're not gonna change their opinion.

• 1:14:12Speaker 06

  Here's the thing, I'm gonna tell you this, though. This is not new. I grew up in Brooklyn. So it was always Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle thing.

• 1:14:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:14:23Speaker 06

  So it's not new, but it's just with the internet, it's just, it's just, it's out of control, for me, for me.

• 1:14:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we've had good ones over the years. Manny versus Brady was good.

• 1:14:34Speaker 06

  Mike don't give a fuck about that. He says, what are you talking about? I mean, LeBron probably say the same thing. What's, what's, what, what is the good that comes out of that? I'm asking you.

• 1:14:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think LeBron probably cares a little bit more because after, after Last Dance, you know, Last Dance comes out, it's during COVID, there's no sports. It's like this five, five week MJ extravaganza. Everybody's in it. There's this whole generation of people who didn't know how good he was.

• 1:15:01Speaker 06

  A lot of people were, were, let's not talk about Scottie Pippen, you know?

• 1:15:07Bill Simmons?

  I know, but the thing is, he's, he becomes a hero at the end of that, Scottie Pippen. Cause that goes into game six, when he's playing with the bad back and Jordan, you know, it is what it is.

• 1:15:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, what's the guy that Phil Jackson?

• 1:15:20Bill Simmons?

  When he ran the play for Kukoc.

• 1:15:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, but that's like, that's a part of Scotty's legacy, unfortunately. That and the migraine, that's just how it goes. You know, Ewing has the finger roll and it doesn't go in.

• 1:15:31Speaker 06

  Hey, hey, hey, hey.

• 1:15:32Bill Simmons?

  But that becomes part of his legacy.

• 1:15:33Speaker 06

  Why you ask, why you bring a Nick into it? And don't talk about game seven against Houston.

• 1:15:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, you, did you go to game one Pacers?

• 1:15:43Bill Simmons?

  This year? The Halliburton, the Neesmith hitting threes and then Halliburton, and you were at that game, right?

• 1:15:49Speaker 06

  This is the Garden, right?

• 1:15:50Bill Simmons?

  So that game was on recently and I just started watching it and I was like, I just forget what happened. And I, I just couldn't believe, I couldn't believe it as it was happening. It's, it's actually three times crazier than I thought it was. So in person, you must've been going nuts.

• 1:16:05Speaker 06

  Let me ask you, were you at the two, games one and two where the Knicks were behind 20 points, both games against the Celtics? Were you there? Oh, you missed that one, huh?

• 1:16:14Bill Simmons?

  I was.

• 1:16:14Speaker 06

  You missed those two, huh?

• 1:16:15Bill Simmons?

  I was fortunately on the West Coast.

• 1:16:18Speaker 06

  Up by 20.

• 1:16:20Bill Simmons?

  I know. That was, I felt like we blew it in those games because of the style we were playing. The Indiana thing, they, that, Niesman's making fallaway threes. They're making some of the craziest shots and they're all in a row and it wasn't even like the Knicks did anything that bad. They missed like two shots, they missed a free throw.

• 1:16:39Speaker 06

  Yeah, but.

• 1:16:39Bill Simmons?

  But for the most part, Andy's just making like literally everything for 10 minutes.

• 1:16:44Speaker 06

  So what we talking about? The movie?

• 1:16:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, did you feel like that was a fluke or did you feel like, cause you, you guys were really good.

• 1:16:51Speaker 06

  Here's the thing though, I'm gonna leave it at this.

• 1:16:53Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:16:53Speaker 06

  The Knicks led the league, the, the starting five of the Knicks led the league in minutes.

• 1:16:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Speaker 06

  I'll leave it at that.

• 1:17:00Bill Simmons?

  Oh, so you were a supporter.

• 1:17:02Speaker 06

  Of what?

• 1:17:03Bill Simmons?

  Of the, of the, of the change.

• 1:17:05Speaker 06

  No, look, I got nothing but respect for my brother Tibbs.

• 1:17:09Bill Simmons?

  So why'd you say the minutes thing?

• 1:17:11Speaker 06

  It's a tough business.

• 1:17:13Bill Simmons?

  Is that the closest you felt like the Knicks were to winning a title since 94? Is that, was that team the best team last 30 years?

• 1:17:21Speaker 06

  Look, we were up 3-2 going to Houston for game six and seven.

• 1:17:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's 94.

• 1:17:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:17:29Speaker 06

  But this is our year. I'm not even talking about the past. This is the year. We're coming out of the East.

• 1:17:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's lined up, cause you got you guys in Cleveland.

• 1:17:38Speaker 06

  We got a bench too now.

• 1:17:39Bill Simmons?

  You got Giannis and basically he's the best player in the conference, but doesn't have the best team. My team's not going to be there this year. Probably Orlando's a year away though.

• 1:17:48Speaker 06

  This year off.

• 1:17:50Bill Simmons?

  It's a write-off, as you could tell by the two trades we made. Porzingis and Holiday for nothing.

• 1:17:55Speaker 06

  Plus you got that, were you in the third tier or something like that?

• 1:17:59Bill Simmons?

  We got out of that.

• 1:18:01Speaker 06

  You got out of it?

• 1:18:01Bill Simmons?

  Thank God they don't have that for movies. Second apron, third apron. Actually, that might be good for movies. Maybe we'd start making more original movies and less superhero movies.

• 1:18:10Speaker 06

  Could be, could be, could be.

• 1:18:11Bill Simmons?

  Although that's starting to change now. I feel like this has been a nice renaissance year for movies with, uh, original, original voices. There's been, you know, original IP movies that have actually, people have gone to the theater to see. You guys are back. Directors are back.

• 1:18:28Speaker 06

  From where?

• 1:18:33Bill Simmons?

  No, you feeling it though?

• 1:18:35Speaker 05

  I had to think about what you just said. But there's a strange thing between

• 1:18:42Speaker 05

  studio films and streaming, you know, there's there's still kinda

• 1:18:48Speaker 05

  wonky, so you know, they're always trying to trying to figure it out.

• 1:18:51Bill Simmons?

  When you say strange, what does that mean? You mean trying to get people to actually see a movie in the theater versus being home?

• 1:18:57Speaker 05

  It's people with the price of tickets and you know, what some other thing, they'd rather just stay home.

• 1:19:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:05Speaker 05

  And I think that this stay home thing, as you stated, as you talked about COVID, you know, uh, there's still COVID is not over as far as mentality, I think. You know, and there's just a thing where

• 1:19:20Speaker 05

  I'm gonna stay home. I got a big ass TV on the wall.

• 1:19:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:25Speaker 05

  I don't have to drive, I don't get a subway, I'm just gonna sit home.

• 1:19:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't have people next to me on in my seat on their phone during the movie.

• 1:19:32Speaker 05

  That drives me crazy.

• 1:19:33Bill Simmons?

  I don't have to see somebody's phone light during a big scene.

• 1:19:36Speaker 05

  Exactly, but even with that, there's nothing I'm them as a kid waiting the hours in line to see the Exorcist or Alien.

• 1:19:46Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:19:47Speaker 05

  Or Jaws, the fifth anniversary, there's nothing, I mean, when the film is hidden in a theaters patch is wonderful.

• 1:19:55Bill Simmons?

  It's so funny, like doing, we do that movie podcast, the rewatchables, and there's movies where they weren't number one until like the sixth week. Like these slow builds that just now it's completely different. You have to hit in the first three weeks.

• 1:20:07Speaker 05

  Weekend.

• 1:20:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Speaker 05

  First weekend.

• 1:20:09Bill Simmons?

  That's it.

• 1:20:10Speaker 05

  It's it's uh.

• 1:20:11Bill Simmons?

  I'm way more optimistic than I was a couple of years ago, because I'm with you. I thought COVID screwed everything up. I thought it changed habits. Well, but beyond that, I'm just saying.

• 1:20:20Speaker 05

  What's more than that?

• 1:20:22Bill Simmons?

  Same for from movie standpoint.

• 1:20:23Speaker 05

  Now, if you had a relative died of COVID, you would just be talking like that.

• 1:20:26Bill Simmons?

  You know what I mean, though?

• 1:20:27Speaker 05

  No, I don't.

• 1:20:28Bill Simmons?

  I'm saying like the the structure of the movie business, how they were made, what the prices for them were, what the goal, trying to get people into a theater. It felt like it shifted over the last five years. And now it feels like it's a little more like the 2010s.

• 1:20:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, let's let's do some of this.

• 1:20:45Speaker 05

  I'm a cinephile. Of course, it was silent movies when sound came.

• 1:20:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:51Speaker 05

  Then when TV came, you know, it's gonna kill the theaters. So this, all this thing is like.

• 1:20:56Bill Simmons?

  It's sick, though.

• 1:20:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, that's the word, my brother.

• 1:21:00Bill Simmons?

  So I think it's, I think the biggest thing is we just need. It's almost like basketball where basketball, there'd be some years where there's like eight great players. And then there's other years where there's like 16. You have little classes, like you had your director class way back when of the up and comers. Then it shifts and right now it seems like we're in a good spot. There's a lot of good people right now.

• 1:21:19Speaker 05

  Well.

• 1:21:22Speaker 05

  You gotta get in where you can fit in.

• 1:21:25Bill Simmons?

  What was your favorite movie you saw this year that wasn't yours?

• 1:21:33Speaker 05

  Sinners. My brother Ryan, he did the damn thing. Let me tell a quick story. He called me up and says, Spike, do you happen to be in L.A.? I said, yeah, why? Well, we're going through the final thing of IMAX and if you can get here in an hour. You can see it. I'm rarely in L.A.

• 1:21:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Speaker 05

  So it wasn't a mistake. I was there and he took a chance calling me. So I'm there.

• 1:22:01Speaker 05

  I'm on the right. Ryan's in the center and his wonderful wife, Cindy is there and. Me, I know that I could want to sit next to me in a movie again because I was acting like I was.

• 1:22:16Speaker 05

  My courtside sees the garden. We were killing the Celtics. I was jumping up and down. I was, I was like, my mom was born, especially to see that musical sequence.

• 1:22:25Bill Simmons?

  With the genres and the eras.

• 1:22:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, I was so happy and I'll tell you, it was like I was, let's leave the Celtics out. I was just happy.

• 1:22:35Speaker 05

  To be there and that he called me. Out of nowhere and then just took a chance. Maybe. There's a chance Spike is in L.A. because this is like the final. The IMAX. Part, the IMAX thing of the, of the film and.

• 1:22:53Speaker 05

  That film was transforming, that film took me to another place. And, and I love movies.

• 1:23:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Speaker 05

  And when I see something that's great, it just puts me,

• 1:23:06Speaker 05

  it lifts my spirit. And it's finished me with that film this year.

• 1:23:10Bill Simmons?

  I felt the same way. I've seen it four times. Cause we did, we did a rewatchables on it that's coming Monday, but it just.

• 1:23:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:23:15Bill Simmons?

  I walked out of the theater.

• 1:23:16Speaker 05

  Has Ryan been a guest?

• 1:23:18Bill Simmons?

  Huh?

• 1:23:18Speaker 05

  Has Ryan been a guest?

• 1:23:19Bill Simmons?

  No, no, we do, we do like people, fans have been talking about it.

• 1:23:22Speaker 05

  But, well, you, you need to get him.

• 1:23:24Bill Simmons?

  But I saw it on a Thursday before it had really come out. I had no idea.

• 1:23:27Speaker 05

  In the theater?

• 1:23:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. It was in LA, they were, sometimes they premiered early. And we, we walked out.

• 1:23:34Speaker 05

  So you didn't know nothing when they were cold, right?

• 1:23:36Bill Simmons?

  I always, I did same thing with your movie. I don't want to know anything. The only thing I knew about your movie was it was a remake and that was it. I didn't want to know anything else.

• 1:23:43Speaker 05

  Whoa, whoa, it's not, it's a reinterpretation.

• 1:23:46Bill Simmons?

  A reimagining.

• 1:23:47Speaker 05

  Reimagining. Not a remake.

• 1:23:48Bill Simmons?

  You know what I mean? Um, but that was.

• 1:23:50Speaker 05

  Well, it always does it because you said that word remake.

• 1:23:52Bill Simmons?

  But all I knew was MBJ and vampires and we were in the past and that's it. And, uh, it was just, it's just so original and so creative. And then the ending, when you just walk out of the theater like, oh my God. Like, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who hasn't seen it, but to land the plane the way they did with that and the way they used the music, um, I thought it was such a great in theater experience, especially the way he used the IMAX and the cameras. It's really, and, and my guy, MBJ.

• 1:24:22Speaker 05

  Best film of the year for me so far.

• 1:24:25Bill Simmons?

  It's really great.

• 1:24:26Speaker 05

  And it's made a ton of money.

• 1:24:29Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. People will come out if the movie's good. So we've at least gone back to that because I think, I, it felt like the studios were getting a little scared with, well, no, we gotta walk, gotta hold people's hand and it's gotta be like, oh, I recognize the superhero. Now it's like, is the movie good or not? And the word of mouth feels like it's back.

• 1:24:47Speaker 05

  But here's the thing.

• 1:24:47Bill Simmons?

  We saw it with Weapons. People are going to see Weapons.

• 1:24:49Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:24:50Bill Simmons?

  Everyone's saying, did you see Weapons? It's good.

• 1:24:53Speaker 05

  Here's the thing though, even more than the past, people worry about their jobs.

• 1:24:59Speaker 05

  So very few people in this industry are gonna take a risk

• 1:25:04Speaker 05

  that might give them their walking papers.

• 1:25:06Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:25:08Speaker 05

  And it's, it's history, it's showing a cinema, the people that.

• 1:25:13Speaker 05

  Who have pushed the best films over this,

• 1:25:20Speaker 05

  who knows how many years that they believed in the talent. They believed in the story and they said, fuck it, you know, when they get behind this film, push it out. Steven Spielberg almost got fired doing jobs, right? You know, so when you have,

• 1:25:39Speaker 05

  you got, look, this is a business, though. But if you have people in those, in those, those spaces, in the studios and streamers that have

• 1:25:49Speaker 05

  respect to the artist. Yeah. And when they, when the whole world is telling them, don't do this film.

• 1:26:00Speaker 05

  And that, that comes to me personally. I'm getting choked up now because my brother, Tom Pollack.

• 1:26:06Speaker 05

  People told him, do not release,

• 1:26:11Speaker 05

  do the right thing, especially in the summer because, you know, Blackpool's riot in the summertime. And that, here's the thing, though, people forget about this.

• 1:26:20Speaker 05

  He had just done the, Tom Pollack had just done The Last Temptation of Christ with Marty. He had, he had death threats. Yeah. So he could not be blamed not doing, do the right thing, knowing him and his family were targets for death. Yeah. But Tom Pollack not listening to anybody, those, those haters.

• 1:26:44Speaker 05

  And he put do the right thing to the world because nobody, coming out of can, Blackpool's gonna riot, all this stuff, which has never happened.

• 1:26:59Speaker 05

  And today it's in the canon of great films. So you gotta have people like that in the studios who are gonna champion.

• 1:27:10Speaker 05

  Work they believe in and that and that and look. No one wants to get killed, you know, but Tom Polly had people get that he came out of Last Temptation of Christ. He had death threats, not just him to his family.

• 1:27:26Speaker 05

  And he believed in me and he believed in the film and the rest is history, herstory.

• 1:27:31Bill Simmons?

  It's funny, that's basically the last 50 years of movies. You read all the books about like, no, about the seventies, right? You have this huge director boom and Copo was one of the ones who was like, I don't need the studios, I want to fund my own stuff and had One From The Heart, which almost bankrupted him. And so we had this little dance, right?

• 1:27:49Speaker 05

  I went to see a film.

• 1:27:51Bill Simmons?

  One From The Heart?

• 1:27:52Speaker 05

  Opening day was same Valentine's Day, where you see a musical.

• 1:27:58Bill Simmons?

  Cause you were still at NYU, right?

• 1:27:59Speaker 05

  What year was that?

• 1:28:01Bill Simmons?

  Eighty-two? Yeah, maybe.

• 1:28:03Speaker 05

  Yeah. Now, yeah, eighty-two, I finished. Yeah, so.

• 1:28:09Bill Simmons?

  So you had this.

• 1:28:10Speaker 05

  So look, we go, we go to this new film. Francis, he put all the money in that film.

• 1:28:16Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:28:16Speaker 05

  Lost it too.

• 1:28:18Bill Simmons?

  So you had, it's always been this dance with, I want to trust the director. I don't want to trust him too much. No, I want to trust him and it, you see it in TV too, because all the greatest TV shows were done by one person, right? Sopranos, one guy, like, you know, Succession, one guy, The Wire, two guys.

• 1:28:36Speaker 05

  But the thing is not being those people around though.

• 1:28:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the thing and that's what makes people not trust the actual artist, but I feel like it's happening more in movies. I think people are starting to understand, like, if I just bet on somebody like Coogler, he's passionate about something. Even if he's only made four movies.

• 1:28:53Speaker 05

  Everybody is a thing now. Let's talk about this though. Ryan took this film, the film, the script Around Town.

• 1:29:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:02Speaker 05

  But no one would make it because he wanted to own the rights in 25 years.

• 1:29:07Bill Simmons?

  Right, to get it back.

• 1:29:09Speaker 05

  And Pam and Mike DeLuca, thank God, they said, okay.

• 1:29:14Bill Simmons?

  You know what?

• 1:29:15Speaker 05

  Warner Brothers.

• 1:29:16Bill Simmons?

  Great business deal. Cause they needed a hit.

• 1:29:19Speaker 05

  Well, and they've had a string of hits since then.

• 1:29:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And guess what? They have it for 25 years. He gets it back. Everybody wins.

• 1:29:25Speaker 05

  Then we retire.

• 1:29:26Bill Simmons?

  I don't think that'll be a new model going forward, but I think for them.

• 1:29:29Speaker 05

  I'm glad it happened though.

• 1:29:31Bill Simmons?

  It's a little like NBA for HC though. All you need is one team that really needs somebody and they're willing to pay it and that's it. But I mean, for him now, he can, his next one, he can do whatever he wants.

• 1:29:40Speaker 05

  Yeah, but you should thought you do whatever you want. Come on, just based upon Black Panther.

• 1:29:45Bill Simmons?

  You would think. Did you ever, did you ever have fuck you power with one of your, like, did you ever feel like I can make any movie I want and get a green light or no?

• 1:29:54Speaker 05

  Never.

• 1:29:55Bill Simmons?

  Never.

• 1:29:57Speaker 05

  Never. I mean, I never made a film of a hundred million dollars till the last one. Inside Man, which was 18 years ago. And I didn't even know it was 18 years ago since me and Denzel, I worked together until the journalists told me that, that that was 18 years ago.

• 1:30:11Bill Simmons?

  That's the only thing, only research I did. Cause I just wanted to talk to you and not feel like I was like following some sort of, that was the only thing I was like, how, when was the last time they worked together? When was Inside Man? I was like, oh, six? First of all, that's crazy. You haven't made a movie with him since oh, six. Like, that's your fault. Come on. You guys should make a movie every 10 years. Come on.

• 1:30:32Speaker 05

  Look.

• 1:30:33Bill Simmons?

  You've only made five. I thought it was like 12. Coppola and not Scorsese and Leo have been seven.

• 1:30:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, but that's not the same as Scorsese and De Niro.

• 1:30:46Bill Simmons?

  And they've been 10.

• 1:30:47Speaker 05

  You know, that's not this for me.

• 1:30:50Bill Simmons?

  But you know what I mean?

• 1:30:51Speaker 05

  I know, I know.

• 1:30:52Bill Simmons?

  I feel like you could have made one every eight, nine years.

• 1:30:54Speaker 05

  Look at the great director. Actor, you know, you got St. Louis Met with Pacino. I don't like the politics, but John Ford and John Wayne.

• 1:31:07Bill Simmons?

  I think they have the record. They made like 21.

• 1:31:10Speaker 05

  Ford and Wayne?

• 1:31:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, at least 20 that made.

• 1:31:12Speaker 05

  Yeah, how many Native Americans got killed?

• 1:31:14Bill Simmons?

  It was a long time ago.

• 1:31:17Speaker 06

  Them savages. Them savages.

• 1:31:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, some of them are tough watches.

• 1:31:24Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, Scorsese and De Niro are probably from the last 50 years, probably the ones people would think of first because they made 10, but they also made them in different decades and their classics for different ways.

• 1:31:34Speaker 06

  Right.

• 1:31:35Bill Simmons?

  You could have snuck in for one like Equalizer or something, just to keep the streak alive.

• 1:31:40Speaker 06

  No.

• 1:31:41Bill Simmons?

  Just snuck in for Equalizer too.

• 1:31:42Speaker 06

  Denzel and I were not thinking about that. And I've come to believe as I get old in years.

• 1:31:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:49Speaker 06

  That things that happen when they happen, you know, I cannot force.

• 1:31:55Speaker 06

  Here's the thing, we, we saw each other in that interlude, you know, but we just didn't make a movie, you know? He has season tickets to the Lakers long, long, me have had it with the Knicks. And so we look at the schedules and when are the Knicks going to be in LA? But now, but now it looks like they, the Knicks are in LA, same trip. So you get, I get to see the Lakers and then they have to get to see the Clippers.

• 1:32:21Bill Simmons?

  You know what's crazy about him?

• 1:32:24Speaker 06

  Who?

• 1:32:24Bill Simmons?

  Denzel. So now you figure like he's a leading man, really starting late eighties, 1990 range, right? So it's been 35 years. And usually when somebody is an A plus lister, in the face of movie poster. At some point you kind of either have to move into the old guy roles or you move into like where Cruz is, or he's basically just doing Mission Impossible and like franchise things. And Denzel could still play these original characters where I still feel like he can kick somebody's ass if he has to. And he can do all these other pieces. I know.

• 1:32:55Speaker 06

  Don't give it away.

• 1:32:56Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to give it away, but um, I, I just can't believe he's kept that going all these years later. He's, he's, it's almost like watching LeBron in year 23. Like I don't understand how he's still doing this.

• 1:33:07Speaker 06

  Here's the thing for me, and I say this very respectfully, for me, I feel Denzel is the greatest one actor. Now the Scorsese, he's gonna say De Niro, France is gonna say Miranda, well, not living.

• 1:33:21Bill Simmons?

  This is back to our previous discussion though about, there's no answer. You just want to be mentioned.

• 1:33:26Speaker 06

  It's not as vicious as LeBron Michael, but.

• 1:33:34Bill Simmons?

  I think being mentioned is the win.

• 1:33:35Speaker 06

  Celebrate.

• 1:33:38Speaker 05

  For me, the whole, especially more in sports then, I don't think people go around saying, "Well, Canaro was this or that." I mean, that thing is really, it's gone off the charts in sports, for me.

• 1:33:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:51Speaker 05

  And it's, uh...

• 1:33:56Speaker 05

  For me, mine, oh, there goes Dave DeBusher. But, for me, it's, it's a waste of time, for me.

• 1:34:08Speaker 05

  And I know Michael thinks that way, because we've talked about it, man. He's like, "Man, I got too many things to do. I got kids, you know, I gotta do..."

• 1:34:16Bill Simmons?

  Plus, Michael knows he was the best, so he didn't even talk about it.

• 1:34:18Speaker 05

  And where was he born?

• 1:34:19Bill Simmons?

  He's like, "I don't even talk about it."

• 1:34:20Speaker 05

  Where was Michael born?

• 1:34:22Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was North Carolina.

• 1:34:23Speaker 05

  No. He's born in Brooklyn.

• 1:34:25Bill Simmons?

  Oh, there you go.

• 1:34:26Speaker 05

  Cumberland Hospital. Mike Tyson was born there and Bernard Albert King.

• 1:34:30Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 1:34:31Speaker 05

  Cumberland Hospital is the hospital my neighbor, like, grew up in, Fort Greene, Brooklyn. Mike, Mike Jordan, Mike Tyson, Bernard Albert King, all born in the same hospital in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, New York. Thank you very much.

• 1:34:44Bill Simmons?

  I was upset that you weren't defending Bernard's name a little...

• 1:34:47Speaker 05

  When?

• 1:34:48Bill Simmons?

  More vociferously, when Brunson had like, and by the way, I love Brunson. But he had a couple of good playoff games, and then it's like, "Greatest Nick ever." It's like, what?

• 1:34:56Speaker 05

  Who's, I didn't say that.

• 1:34:57Bill Simmons?

  That, no, you didn't say it, but that was out there. And it was like, did you guys, you guys gotta go on YouTube and watch Bernard in 84 for like, two months. Two months just killing everybody. Like, come on. Brunson was great.

• 1:35:10Speaker 05

  You know, his teammate was there in Tennessee?

• 1:35:13Bill Simmons?

  Ernie Grunfeld, right? Yeah. Burnt the Bernie Ernie Show.

• 1:35:16Speaker 05

  Both of Brooklyn.

• 1:35:17Bill Simmons?

  Here's the thing with Denzel, though. I think he's a one-on-one.

• 1:35:21Speaker 05

  Tell me how.

• 1:35:22Bill Simmons?

  There's certain basketball players like this, too. I just, nobody can be the cool, you can play the, the role where you're the coolest guy in the movie, but he can also disappear into a character. He can be like the dad in an Ordinary People type movie, but he could also be the guy in Man on Fire.

• 1:35:39Speaker 05

  Right.

• 1:35:40Bill Simmons?

  Like, he can move...

• 1:35:40Speaker 05

  Or Training Day.

• 1:35:42Bill Simmons?

  Training Day.

• 1:35:43Speaker 05

  King Kong!

• 1:35:44Bill Simmons?

  Like, Hanks had that crazy run, right? But Hanks, there's certain roles he just wouldn't do, or he just, you, you wouldn't have bought him in. Denzel, I feel like is the most malleable of any A-plus lister we've had. He can really, literally put him in anything. Even in this movie, like he's never played a character quite like the guy in this movie.

• 1:36:04Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm not gonna argue with you.

• 1:36:07Bill Simmons?

  That would be my case for him.

• 1:36:09Speaker 05

  I understand. He's, it's a blessing. I've been with him five, five. Mo Better Blues, Malcolm X, He Got Game, Inside Man, which was 18 years ago, and now this.

• 1:36:23Bill Simmons?

  The last time you were on my podcast, we told the story about when he got the first four points off Ray Allen. If he got game.

• 1:36:31Speaker 05

  Want to go?

• 1:36:32Bill Simmons?

  Well, but then I saw Denzel after. I can't, I think I, I did a podcast with him, I think after you. And he told his version of the story. And he's clearly more proud of it than just about anything. He probably did all the movie set.

• 1:36:45Speaker 05

  You know, Denzel played JV at Fordham.

• 1:36:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:48Speaker 05

  And PJ Carisimo was his coach. So he's, you know.

• 1:36:54Speaker 05

  He loves sports. His season ticket for the Lakers, I mean, way, way.

• 1:36:57Bill Simmons?

  I saw him on ESPN. You were there too, killing Jerry Jones.

• 1:37:01Speaker 05

  He, that was him. So.

• 1:37:06Speaker 05

  The script, in the script.

• 1:37:11Speaker 05

  Ray Allen's supposed to win 11.

• 1:37:13Bill Simmons?

  Right, he's supposed to kill him.

• 1:37:15Speaker 05

  Denzel was like, fuck that. I'm gonna leave the basket. And so Denzel starts throwing up, there's throwing up shit is going in.

• 1:37:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:24Speaker 05

  And we had to have a, an acting coach for it, named Susan Batson. So. Denzel's throwing his baskets and then she's yelling at him, what are you doing, what are you doing? And then Ray starts yelling at me. He says, timeout.

• 1:37:42Speaker 05

  You say cut, he's saying with the, with the technical.

• 1:37:46Bill Simmons?

  Cause he was like, was he like embarrassed?

• 1:37:49Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:37:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, Denzel was doing the old guy bang against you.

• 1:37:53Speaker 05

  Here's the thing though, he's looking at me. I said. Ray's looking at me like, what the fuck's going on? I just, I just saw it like this.

• 1:38:02Speaker 06

  And then Ray said, oh, and here's the thing, though. The point is that Denzel, him, makes them baskets, made that seem better. Cause I wrote it as eleven zip.

• 1:38:18Bill Simmons?

  It's one of the best sports. It's, it's one of my favorite, favorite sports movies. And then you also go wide on it.

• 1:38:23Speaker 06

  And then also you got.

• 1:38:24Bill Simmons?

  It feels like you're watching a game.

• 1:38:25Speaker 06

  The great musical election of Aaron Copeland for that too. And think about that, that film, the musical film was public enemy and the great American composer, Aaron Copeland. So then, I mean, his, his story sense is amazing. That he made the movie better. I wrote Ray's character when eleven zip. But Dee was like, nah, he didn't tell me he's gonna do that though. That's the thing though. He just did it. And the shots we would make were, were lucky. And they were going, but they were going in.

• 1:39:04Bill Simmons?

  We did that movie a couple of years ago for rewatchables and it's aged in this awesome way. And it's stuff like, I didn't realize, like when I saw it in the theater with 97. Some of the stuff that's in there is where basketball is going, which you saw pretty early. And I don't think I saw it.

• 1:39:22Speaker 06

  What was that?

• 1:39:23Bill Simmons?

  Just how fast things were moving for fame, for high school kids. The system, all the money that was in place.

• 1:39:31Speaker 06

  My brother Rick Fox takes him down.

• 1:39:34Bill Simmons?

  Takes him to UNC, yeah, for the trip. You have a couple of porn stars there.

• 1:39:40Speaker 06

  But you know what's funny though? Now you know I sit the garden. So when teens were visiting, they would come in, they'd be going by me like, Spike, man, you gave way too much.

• 1:39:50Bill Simmons?

  Seriously.

• 1:39:51Speaker 06

  Spike, you spilled the bees. We thought we had on lock, man. You put, you put out there for the world to see. That's a joke, believe me, yo, Spike, man, you know, come on, you put too much in it, too much in there.

• 1:40:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, you had, so you had Marbury was your access into that world, right? Cause you, you were friendly with them?

• 1:40:07Speaker 06

  Not really, it's just Abraham Lincoln, that was the school. I mean, a lot of players.

• 1:40:11Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I thought, I thought Jesus was modeled a little, little bit. Is that an old West there?

• 1:40:16Speaker 06

  That's what Stefan said, but really Coney Island historically.

• 1:40:21Speaker 06

  Abraham Lincoln, that's the school for basketball.

• 1:40:24Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:40:25Speaker 06

  And of course, Stephon went there, but it was not, it was not a biography.

• 1:40:29Bill Simmons?

  Something shifted over the course of the nineties as more money goes into basketball.

• 1:40:33Speaker 06

  What do you call it? What do you call it?

• 1:40:35Bill Simmons?

  Which one?

• 1:40:36Speaker 06

  N I.

• 1:40:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the N I L. Well, now it's like, now you gotta make He Got Game Two and you're just doing N I L.

• 1:40:42Speaker 06

  You ain't, oh, so many people. First of all, you know.

• 1:40:47Bill Simmons?

  You want, you want a hundred million dollar movie, do that.

• 1:40:49Speaker 06

  First of all, you know I sit the garden. So if anybody wants to say so to the, and the Knicks, they come over. They were, people at the foul line, the guys, we use a spike.

• 1:41:02Bill Simmons?

  Oh, because they want to be in it.

• 1:41:04Speaker 06

  Yeah. And then also Skylar, what's her name?

• 1:41:06Bill Simmons?

  Diggs? Yep.

• 1:41:08Speaker 06

  She's, she's, she's the first one to say Spike got to do this again, but, but.

• 1:41:11Bill Simmons?

  Flip it, make it a.

• 1:41:13Speaker 06

  Yeah. She said that she was the first one to say that.

• 1:41:15Bill Simmons?

  That's a great idea. Why wouldn't you do that?

• 1:41:18Speaker 06

  I haven't done any remakes.

• 1:41:20Bill Simmons?

  It's not a remake.

• 1:41:23Bill Simmons?

  It's, it's a continuation.

• 1:41:24Speaker 06

  Reinterpretation like on Dumont Corso.

• 1:41:28Bill Simmons?

  You're reimagining him.

• 1:41:29Speaker 06

  I, I use the word reinterpretation.

• 1:41:31Bill Simmons?

  Reinterpretation. This is a continuation. This is like Top Gun Maverick. You get Jesus, you get Ray Allen in it now. And it's his daughter.

• 1:41:43Bill Simmons?

  Come on.

• 1:41:43Speaker 06

  Ray Allen has said that, I'm not, he's saying that every year.

• 1:41:46Bill Simmons?

  He's available. He's ready to be in it. I actually think he's good in that movie. Like, like when you think of the legacy, I mean, obviously you know this, the best basketball player performance ever is Bernard King in Fast Break as Hustler. Like ripping off lines, like he's the most natural actor we've ever had. You're not buying that one?

• 1:42:06Speaker 06

  I'm not comparing, I mean, I haven't seen it in a long time, but.

• 1:42:09Bill Simmons?

  Bernard's good in that movie. Bernard was in a Miami Vice with Bill Russell.

• 1:42:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:42:13Bill Simmons?

  Bill Russell and Bernard were father and son in an episode.

• 1:42:16Speaker 06

  I missed that one.

• 1:42:17Bill Simmons?

  Bernard was a good actor. I thought Ray was good. It's not, it's not a long list of good. Anthony Edwards was good in the Adam Sandler movie.

• 1:42:24Speaker 06

  The what?

• 1:42:25Bill Simmons?

  Adam Sandler made a movie on a, called Hustle on Netflix and Anthony Edwards is in it.

• 1:42:30Speaker 06

  What was the one? What's the one that, uh?

• 1:42:34Speaker 05

  That, uh, Kevin Garnett was a.

• 1:42:37Bill Simmons?

  Uncut Gems. Kevin Garnett was good.

• 1:42:39Speaker 05

  Yeah, he was good. I wasn't salty.

• 1:42:43Bill Simmons?

  And I thought, even though Eddie was not a good movie, which I'm sure you probably hated.

• 1:42:47Speaker 05

  I hated.

• 1:42:48Bill Simmons?

  I thought Malik Sealy was good in that movie. I thought Rick Fox was good, too. We've had some good ones.

• 1:42:52Speaker 05

  Rick is an actor.

• 1:42:54Bill Simmons?

  Rick's an actor. You put him in this movie.

• 1:42:56Speaker 05

  And, yeah, Coach playing himself.

• 1:42:58Bill Simmons?

  Coach Fox.

• 1:42:59Speaker 05

  Coach Fox.

• 1:43:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know why he took the Larry Bird shot, though.

• 1:43:05Bill Simmons?

  I think he.

• 1:43:05Speaker 05

  It's not a shot.

• 1:43:06Speaker 06

  That's what.

• 1:43:07Bill Simmons?

  That was his.

• 1:43:08Speaker 06

  That's what a policeman would say that the guy was a Celtic fan, so why wouldn't he get that Rick Fox?

• 1:43:14Bill Simmons?

  You healed with Larry Bird and now you're taking, now you're taking shots at him.

• 1:43:18Speaker 05

  I'm not taking a shot. As I said before, ladies and gentlemen, those listening at home, I have the utmost respect.

• 1:43:23Bill Simmons?

  For Larry Bird. We have to, there's a big thing before we talk about your movie. I feel like Shalhoub is on your corner a little bit, and I want to make sure you guys are good. Cause, cause he's become a signature Knicks fan. He's kinda, he's kinda in, kinda in your real estate. Are you, have you hashed this out?

• 1:43:39Speaker 05

  No, no, no. My sis, my daughter and my son, they all grew up together in the New York City. So I got, man, we wanna, we wanna.

• 1:43:52Bill Simmons?

  You condone this?

• 1:43:52Speaker 05

  We wanna do a film together.

• 1:43:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh, so you're in. Okay.

• 1:43:56Speaker 05

  I mean.

• 1:43:57Bill Simmons?

  All right. He's on your corner a little bit. You're sharing it. It's a big corner now.

• 1:44:02Speaker 05

  There's no competition.

• 1:44:03Bill Simmons?

  He's got, he's wearing Chrome Hearts Knicks wardrobe. Like, he's really stepped it up.

• 1:44:09Speaker 05

  Look, there's no rivalry there.

• 1:44:13Bill Simmons?

  This is like LeBron Jordan.

• 1:44:14Speaker 05

  He's a great actor.

• 1:44:15Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to start shit.

• 1:44:16Speaker 05

  He's a great actor and one day we're gonna work together.

• 1:44:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to start dissension of Knicks Island.

• 1:44:21Speaker 05

  There's no shit to be started.

• 1:44:23Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. I heard he was telling people, it's my team now.

• 1:44:25Speaker 05

  Nah, he was.

• 1:44:26Bill Simmons?

  Spike Stay was, Spike Stay was Patrick Ewing.

• 1:44:29Speaker 05

  Why they lying on, why they lying on? Now, here's the thing. People try to, I know you do a kidding, but people trying to start stuff. Me and him are good. It's, it's, it's all.

• 1:44:38Bill Simmons?

  But do people actually try to start stuff?

• 1:44:42Bill Simmons?

  Interesting.

• 1:44:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, the thing that he's a hair apparent, you know, I'm hand, I'm gonna hand him the baton, but it's not, we just love the Knicks.

• 1:44:49Bill Simmons?

  Also, where are you going? You've plenty of good Knicks years ahead of you.

• 1:44:54Speaker 05

  Well, God willing, look, he's a good guy.

• 1:44:57Bill Simmons?

  He's a real fan though.

• 1:44:58Speaker 05

  He's a real fan, he's a great actor, and we've talked about doing a film together, you know, once this schedule clears up the next.

• 1:45:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, he's kind of in demand. Well, maybe it could be a Knicks, Knicks related?

• 1:45:11Speaker 05

  Nah, it's gonna have nothing to do with sports.

• 1:45:13Bill Simmons?

  I meant, he's a, he's a W fan sports radio host?

• 1:45:18Speaker 05

  You know what?

• 1:45:19Bill Simmons?

  I'm trying to think of something.

• 1:45:22Speaker 05

  You better think, you better think longer and harder.

• 1:45:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, let me, let me get back to the workshop on that. Um, yeah, so it's you two. Who else was going on the road for those games? You guys were the two big ones, right? Seemed like there was a little celebrity posse traveling around.

• 1:45:35Speaker 05

  Yes, and that guy Al Palagoni, you know, he sits next to me, you know, he has a

• 1:45:42Speaker 05

  Apollo Jets, so we're all on his, his plane, and a lot of the players too.

• 1:45:45Bill Simmons?

  You must be so excited though that they're good again. I mean, you talk about sticking through the lean years. It's like, it's two fucking decades.

• 1:45:54Speaker 05

  Look, we've not won a world championship since the 72, 73 season.

• 1:45:58Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 1:45:59Speaker 05

  How many years is that?

• 1:45:59Bill Simmons?

  I was three.

• 1:46:00Speaker 05

  How many years is that, my bro? How many years is that?

• 1:46:02Bill Simmons?

  Fifty, fifty-two. I was three years old.

• 1:46:04Speaker 05

  It's not fifty-three?

• 1:46:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's gonna be fifty-three this year.

• 1:46:07Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is the glory year. I don't want anybody to get hurt.

• 1:46:13Speaker 05

  But with Tatum, Halliburton, I'm not scared of Cleveland. They went out the first round last year.

• 1:46:22Bill Simmons?

  Right. You should probably be scared about KC. I would be scared of them.

• 1:46:26Speaker 05

  Look, well, we, we, yeah, that means we're in the finals.

• 1:46:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that means you're in the finals.

• 1:46:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, but let's, let's, let's get out of, win the East Division first. That's why, that's why I said Boston and Indiana. Indiana put us out the last two years in the playoffs.

• 1:46:40Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna, if you look at the book there, Goldman's staring at you. He missed all of it.

• 1:46:45Speaker 05

  Great writer.

• 1:46:46Bill Simmons?

  Great writer, great Knicks fan.

• 1:46:47Speaker 05

  Had his seats right behind the baseline, way before me.

• 1:46:51Bill Simmons?

  He went to all of them in the last fifteen years. Like, there was no good memories, but now, and the Brunson thing, I don't know how sustainable it is with small guards. To be like, to just do this for seven, eight years. Cause the pounding he takes, like Isaiah was retired when he was like thirty two. Like Isaiah Thomas, the Celtics version, you know, he was, he was lasted two thousand seventeen. He got hurt. I just, he takes a lot of hits. That would be my one fear with him. I don't think this is happening with Mr. Brunson. What do you mean? You just think he's, he's just built different and he's a crazy worker. He's, he's built like that. He's built for it. And so he's gonna be the one to lead us to the glory land.

• 1:47:36Bill Simmons?

  You get along with his dad? Rick? His dad's running the team apparently. Running the team? No, he's not even a lead assistant coach now. I know. That's, that was a rumor that was going around. No, it's true. No, I know. It's Leanna Worldwide West. No, I'm saying Mike Brown is hiring his own assistant coaches. Is Rick Brunson, I thought he was on the bench. He's not? He's going left. Everybody else is gone. And you like Mike Brown? Yeah, I think that, look, I love Tim. You seem very confident. Last time I saw you, you were not confident at all. Yeah. How many years ago was that? That was like two thousand nineteen, eighteen range. We're twenty twenty five now. I think you just traded Porzingis. You ever heard the soap opera As the World Turns? Yeah.

• 1:48:22Bill Simmons?

  I think you just traded Porzingis and you were down in the dumps or you're about to trade Porzingis. What happened? The Knicks. That was the last time I saw you. Well, that's, man.

• 1:48:33Bill Simmons?

  Shoot, you guys got rid of him. Well, we had to. They changed the rules on us. Oh, that rule is just for the Boston Celtics. Change the rules. I'm sorry. We built an awesome team of assets. Now you have to take assets away from us. It's gonna happen to the Knicks. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't keep these team together. The Knicks when we get a ring. Yeah. Well, mate. Well, so he got game two as, as a gender flip, I think is great. This movie you did, um, which I saw last night, which was exhilarating. You saw it last night? I did. You had a screener? I did. No, I went to the, I went to one of those screening theaters. I would have liked a bigger theater, but it was, it, it did the job. Well. And I didn't read anything. I didn't know where it was going. So that's. I just had a great time. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:18Bill Simmons?

  I did. I had a great time. Yeah. You know what? Denzel Washington, he's been in my life now. I mean, you have to go back to Sin Elsewhere, because I saw him on that show. But like, as a reliable, I'm gonna go see Denzel in a movie theater. This is now thirty-five years. It's atypical. And then you two together.

• 1:49:38Speaker 05

  He's consistent, too.

• 1:49:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you two together, like, of course, I'm gonna enjoy that.

• 1:49:42Speaker 05

  Dean Lee.

• 1:49:43Bill Simmons?

  Um, so you're doing the reinterpretation.

• 1:49:46Speaker 05

  Yes, of the Cora Sauer film, which is made from American novel written by Ed McMahon. So, United States, Japan, and also that was Japan post-war, nineteen sixty-three, nineteen sixty-three.

• 1:49:59Bill Simmons?

  And that was shoes.

• 1:50:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, and I mean, Denzel to be owner of a shoe company, you know.

• 1:50:08Speaker 05

  I think you gotta bring them back to their culture, and he's a head of, the founder and head of a a record label, Stacking Hits.

• 1:50:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:18Speaker 05

  And he's come to this point where

• 1:50:21Speaker 05

  that music, and he's hard to stay on top, you know, for decades. And the thing for me that really drew me to this part

• 1:50:32Speaker 05

  behind working with Denzel again, is that what makes the novel and also Cora Sauer's film high, slowest, is that when you're audience, this is what I think, when you're the audience watching this film, you put yourself in the shoes of Denzel Washington with this morality. What will you do?

• 1:50:57Bill Simmons?

  I love what will you do movies.

• 1:51:00Speaker 05

  This is, this is one of them.

• 1:51:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're sitting in your seat going, fuck. I know what the right choice is, but I do it.

• 1:51:07Speaker 05

  And that's, that's, and then when you have an actor,

• 1:51:11Speaker 05

  a esteemed actor on the level of Denzel Washington, I'm sure everybody who sees this film in the theater or at home will feel the same way. Asking, asking themselves, what will they do if they were in a situation?

• 1:51:26Speaker 06

  Denzel's character David King is in.

• 1:51:29Bill Simmons?

  So you've known him for so long. Cause I do this now, cause I'm, I'm younger than you, but I'm still in the mid 50s. But you start.

• 1:51:38Speaker 06

  What year were you born?

• 1:51:39Bill Simmons?

  I was 69. So you go back.

• 1:51:41Speaker 06

  69?

• 1:51:42Bill Simmons?

  In the years pass.

• 1:51:43Speaker 06

  Six, the amazing 69 Mets?

• 1:51:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, Russell's last title, I like to think of 69 in the moon.

• 1:51:50Bill Simmons?

  But.

• 1:51:51Speaker 06

  Managed by Gil Hodges, Ed Crane Poole at first.

• 1:51:54Bill Simmons?

  And that was a great team.

• 1:51:55Speaker 06

  Ken Boswell at second, Bud Harrelson is short.

• 1:51:59Bill Simmons?

  Did you like that team?

• 1:52:00Speaker 06

  I love that team. Leon Jones in left, Tommy Agee in center, Ron Schrebbota in right.

• 1:52:07Bill Simmons?

  Seaver, Coosman, Ryan.

• 1:52:09Speaker 06

  Jerry Coosman.

• 1:52:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:10Speaker 06

  Gary Gentry, Nolan. There's a famous card, baseball card, Gary Gentry and Nolan. Nolan Ryan shared the same.

• 1:52:18Bill Simmons?

  Rookie card.

• 1:52:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:52:19Bill Simmons?

  Rookie card.

• 1:52:20Speaker 06

  So. And also, sometime for a spaceman, Don Clendenin. And Don Clendenin went to my college, Morehouse College.

• 1:52:30Bill Simmons?

  Done with two ends.

• 1:52:31Speaker 06

  What?

• 1:52:31Bill Simmons?

  Done with two ends.

• 1:52:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:52:34Bill Simmons?

  The reason I brought up 69 was, I have friends that I've had for, since 1988, things we did together, they just blend in with each other. You've known Denzel since the 80s.

• 1:52:45Speaker 06

  The first one was Bo Beddu Blues.

• 1:52:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:47Speaker 06

  I knew him before that though.

• 1:52:49Bill Simmons?

  So when you think of like this relationship you have with him, does the shit blend in together? Do you remember specific things or what, what is it at this point?

• 1:52:56Speaker 06

  Here's the thing though.

• 1:52:58Speaker 06

  Me and Denzel are friends, we trust each other, but we might see each other.

• 1:53:05Speaker 06

  When the Lakers, when the Knicks in LA, I'm sitting at seven. What's the new, what's the new place called? Arena.

• 1:53:13Bill Simmons?

  Intuit Dome.

• 1:53:15Speaker 06

  No, that's the Clippers. Yeah. Anyway, and then he might, he's in New York, he lives in New York too. You know, we come to Nick games. So it's not like we're best friends. We talk all the time, but we're doing a film.

• 1:53:31Speaker 06

  Is rock south.

• 1:53:32Bill Simmons?

  So when you've done a film, when you've done four of their movies with somebody and then you're doing the fifth with them. Is there, is there like a shorthand or like it's, is it new every time?

• 1:53:40Speaker 06

  We did not have to have a deep conversation about the other four we've done and what we were, no. We work, it's like we, we work together.

• 1:53:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:52Speaker 06

  Inside man was yesterday.

• 1:53:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:53:54Speaker 06

  That's that what we have and our wives are close and our children, Denzel's son was a leading black Klansman, John David.

• 1:54:01Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:54:01Speaker 06

  Washington, so.

• 1:54:04Speaker 06

  It's, it's, you have to be up in somebody's face every single minute, you know, because if the bond is there. And it's on a solid grounds on trust and love. That's all you need.

• 1:54:15Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:54:15Speaker 06

  You have to see him every day.

• 1:54:18Bill Simmons?

  When I did a pod with him, I was all excited to go backwards and talk about different movies he made. And he's the opposite. He just is like, I made the movie, it happened. I don't think about it anymore.

• 1:54:26Speaker 06

  That's what Denzel, Denzel, I'm gonna say this, Denzel doesn't even look at his films once, once.

• 1:54:31Bill Simmons?

  He didn't, didn't want to talk about it. He wanted to talk about the Knicks and the Lakers and.

• 1:54:34Speaker 06

  Who's this?

• 1:54:35Bill Simmons?

  Denzel.

• 1:54:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:54:36Bill Simmons?

  That's what I mean.

• 1:54:36Speaker 06

  He moves on, moves on. What's, what's next?

• 1:54:39Bill Simmons?

  Like what about Man on Fire? It's like, yeah, Tommy Scott. Is it like, he just doesn't care.

• 1:54:44Speaker 06

  Well, he cares, but I think it's just his process.

• 1:54:46Bill Simmons?

  Right. He's just on to the next one.

• 1:54:48Speaker 06

  He's, he's, he doesn't, he's in the, he's in the moment, he's in the future and he's not, and the past is gone and you can't bring it back.

• 1:54:55Bill Simmons?

  It's like Tom Brady. What's your favorite Super Bowl, the next one? That's Denzel. What's your favorite movie, the next one?

• 1:55:01Speaker 06

  No, let me, now you bring on Tom Brady.

• 1:55:04Bill Simmons?

  I'm sorry.

• 1:55:05Speaker 06

  Whoa, whoa, whoa, what about this? Who's this?

• 1:55:08Bill Simmons?

  What's that?

• 1:55:09Speaker 06

  You know what that is.

• 1:55:12Bill Simmons?

  Are you talking?

• 1:55:12Speaker 06

  Tyree.

• 1:55:14Bill Simmons?

  Oh, come on.

• 1:55:15Speaker 06

  Ty, what's this? Manny Ham.

• 1:55:19Bill Simmons?

  So that one bothered me more.

• 1:55:20Speaker 06

  Why?

• 1:55:21Bill Simmons?

  Cause you undefeated that year? Cause they, they outplayed us in those seven. The Giants were better that game. Like, they kicked their ass that game.

• 1:55:28Speaker 06

  We better bowl game, full sub bowl.

• 1:55:29Bill Simmons?

  No, that 2011 Giants team stunk.

• 1:55:31Speaker 06

  Stunk?

• 1:55:32Bill Simmons?

  No, we, we gave, we gave them that game.

• 1:55:34Speaker 06

  I'm gonna get in the car right now.

• 1:55:35Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:55:36Speaker 06

  How do we make a sub bowl stink?

• 1:55:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, the, the, the Lebo game, that was a good one, but I think we were better than them in 11.

• 1:55:43Speaker 06

  Why'd you win it?

• 1:55:44Bill Simmons?

  We stunk. We, we choked away the game.

• 1:55:47Speaker 06

  So why, you're undefeated.

• 1:55:48Bill Simmons?

  Ela made one throw.

• 1:55:49Speaker 06

  If you're undefeated, you're undefeated.

• 1:55:51Bill Simmons?

  No, that was 07.

• 1:55:52Speaker 06

  So you choose the sub bowl to stink?

• 1:55:54Bill Simmons?

  No, that was 07. You guys beat us in 07. Like, that front four dominated the game. They were better. I'm fine with 07.

• 1:56:02Speaker 06

  Great hand?

• 1:56:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they, they, 07, you, we lost. We couldn't run the ball and the, and the front four killed us.

• 1:56:08Speaker 06

  So Tom Brady was courtside in that game.

• 1:56:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:12Speaker 06

  And they gave him a ball, signed. He has to throw up in the stands during a timeout.

• 1:56:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:18Speaker 06

  So Tom says, come here, Spike. When, then when this thing happens, I'm gonna throw the ball to you first. And he throw it back to me.

• 1:56:28Speaker 06

  He throws me a bullet like I'm Gronk.

• 1:56:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:56:31Speaker 06

  I'm five six. The ball flies over my head.

• 1:56:37Speaker 06

  And lucky, it hit me.

• 1:56:39Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:56:40Speaker 06

  In, in, in the head.

• 1:56:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:56:42Speaker 06

  So the ball go here, I, I run back and give it to him and he threw it open, but that was funny.

• 1:56:47Bill Simmons?

  Do you fit, like, you've been around?

• 1:56:49Speaker 06

  I also like to say this.

• 1:56:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:52Speaker 06

  I got the utmost respect for Brady. Great guy.

• 1:56:55Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 1:56:56Speaker 06

  Great guy. Great guy.

• 1:56:59Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat, or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what. You're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle, whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season. Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech. For American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather, visit weatherTech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance, and IT, with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails.

• 1:57:39Bill Simmons?

  So every AI action is permission-aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. Um, you've been around a lot of cool actors, people with charisma and a lot of cool athletes with charisma. Is there some sort of common, is there some sort of common DNA trait that you noticed?

• 1:58:01Speaker 05

  Confidence.

• 1:58:03Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:58:04Speaker 05

  Not every athlete's, not a great actor, but I'm talking about the greats and the ones that they really thrive in front of the camera.

• 1:58:14Speaker 05

  Confidence also they take direction to.

• 1:58:17Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:17Speaker 05

  They test, so the athletes and the great ones, they gotta listen to the coach. The coach make calls on the fucked up play and they say fuck that, I'm not doing that. But in, in general, that they listen, listen.

• 1:58:32Speaker 05

  They just start listening to their coaches in, when they're in the major, that shit starts.

• 1:58:38Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:58:39Speaker 05

  Early.

• 1:58:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:58:40Speaker 05

  Top one or whatever it is, you know? And the great ones had the blessing of having a coach that could put them on a straight path. Lay down stuff you gotta do to get there. Cause you always hear these guys talk about, not necessarily their, their pro coach, but.

• 1:58:58Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:58:58Speaker 05

  The high, especially a high school coach, high school coach who.

• 1:59:05Speaker 05

  Made the path smooth with the word you wanted, but those, those, those high school coaches laid down the foundation. Do you agree with that?

• 1:59:14Bill Simmons?

  I think coaches, especially at the elementary, high school level are like seven times more important than people give it credit for.

• 1:59:21Speaker 05

  But now it's getting.

• 1:59:21Bill Simmons?

  Cause they can make you either not like sports or they can make you love it.

• 1:59:24Speaker 05

  It's now it's out of control now. Travel squad and all, it's, it's crazy.

• 1:59:29Bill Simmons?

  They, we're at a great reckoning with basketball right now.

• 1:59:33Speaker 05

  What's that? Tell me.

• 1:59:35Bill Simmons?

  The specialization, the AAU stuff, the flying everywhere, the playing, you know, eight games in two weekends. And it's all for the, there's pressure on these parents that if you don't do it, your kid's gonna fall behind and.

• 1:59:47Speaker 05

  Or get lost in the sauce.

• 1:59:49Bill Simmons?

  They fucked up everything and, uh.

• 1:59:52Speaker 05

  Well, doesn't mu, doesn't money usually do that?

• 1:59:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, that's for damn sure, but the, the specialization, you talk to some of these, some of the best athletes I've ever had. Like even LeBron played football in high school, like he was playing multiple sports, but something has shifted.

• 2:00:06Speaker 05

  Multiple sports helps, whatever sport you.

• 2:00:07Bill Simmons?

  Really? And it also helps if you're an awesome athlete that could play multiple sports. The, the confidence thing though, is there another actor other than? Like Denzel, obviously, but were there other people you remember where you're like, "Man, that guy really," or "that lady really, really knows what they're doing." Because you've had 40 years of movies now.

• 2:00:28Speaker 05

  John Turturro.

• 2:00:29Bill Simmons?

  John Turturro.

• 2:00:31Speaker 05

  Evan Norton.

• 2:00:33Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you got, that's my favorite, uh, that's my favorite Spike Lee movie.

• 2:00:37Speaker 05

  Twenty, Twenty Fifth Hour?

• 2:00:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:39Speaker 05

  Philip Seymour Hoffman.

• 2:00:41Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that movie's incredible. We talked about it last time, but it's, it's basically the nine, the right after 9/11 movie that people didn't realize was the right after 9/11 movie, but it is.

• 2:00:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, um, nobody went to see that movie when it came out. And, uh,

• 2:00:56Speaker 05

  I'm a New Yorker and I, the thing about, I wasn't even in New York for 9/11.

• 2:01:02Bill Simmons?

  Where were you?

• 2:01:03Speaker 05

  I was in LA. I was trying to get Arnold Schwarzenegger, Schwarzenegger in a film I was doing.

• 2:01:12Bill Simmons?

  What?

• 2:01:13Speaker 05

  To do a film called Save us Joe Louis. I wrote with the great Bud Schulberg and he was gonna play Max Schmellin.

• 2:01:20Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 2:01:22Speaker 05

  So I was on a, I left and we, we had a meeting.

• 2:01:27Speaker 05

  The morning, that morning and we weren't even talking. We were just looking at the TV screen.

• 2:01:33Bill Simmons?

  So you sprinkled, uh, you sprinkled some serious New York in this new movie. I don't want to spoil it for the people that haven't listened, but there's an action sequence.

• 2:01:43Speaker 05

  I'm a New Yorker!

• 2:01:45Bill Simmons?

  You got Yankee Stadium, you have a, you have a parade, you got all kinds, you got all kinds of stuff happening.

• 2:01:51Speaker 05

  And I like to say, if I can right now, um,

• 2:01:55Speaker 05

  we're all saddened by the loss of the great, great, great Eddie Palmieri who passed. I mean, his scene where he performed the anthem, not anthem, but the great song Puerto Rico, that holds that scene together. And he just died, uh, last week.

• 2:02:14Bill Simmons?

  Damn.

• 2:02:15Speaker 05

  You know that?

• 2:02:16Bill Simmons?

  Mm-mm.

• 2:02:16Speaker 05

  Yeah, he died.

• 2:02:18Bill Simmons?

  So I was thinking, I was, your first movie was eighty six.

• 2:02:22Speaker 05

  She's gonna have it.

• 2:02:24Bill Simmons?

  It's now two thousand, you've, this is your fortieth year of making movies.

• 2:02:27Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 2:02:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:29Speaker 05

  Forty eight years?

• 2:02:30Bill Simmons?

  Forty.

• 2:02:31Speaker 05

  Oh, forty.

• 2:02:32Bill Simmons?

  Four oh, this is your fortieth Spike Lee movie year.

• 2:02:34Speaker 05

  That's forty for forty acres and a mule.

• 2:02:36Bill Simmons?

  Would you, would you have guessed that in eighty six? I will make forty years of movies.

• 2:02:41Speaker 05

  No, I mean, I barely, making she dad practically killed me, so everything after that, my brother's been a blessing. Because I say this all the time, I hope that people don't get mad, don't get mad at me saying this, that they hurt him more than once.

• 2:02:56Speaker 05

  On this god's earth, if you can make a living doing what you love, you won. The joyous people on this god's earth, for their grave, haven't worked at a job they hated, but they're gonna put, make, they're not gonna let their kids starve, they're gonna close on kids back and food and a roof over your head, but

• 2:03:18Speaker 05

  that's not their dream.

• 2:03:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:03:20Speaker 05

  You know, but when you get to

• 2:03:23Speaker 05

  to do what your dream is, you've won. You've won.

• 2:03:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't think you could say that enough.

• 2:03:31Bill Simmons?

  Cause it's true.

• 2:03:32Speaker 05

  That's true.

• 2:03:32Bill Simmons?

  I mean, you do, you talk to a lot of college kids and stuff, but that must be one of your big messages, right?

• 2:03:37Speaker 05

  Well, my brother, I know I said term many times, but I mean, it is

• 2:03:45Speaker 05

  it's truthful.

• 2:03:47Speaker 05

  The thing that brings me joy, besides making films, I'm a cinephile. And I'm a ten professor, a ten professor of film in NYU Grand Film School.

• 2:03:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:57Speaker 05

  Ernest Dix, my great teacher, great teacher Pete early, in his early years, and Ang Lee, we're classmates.

• 2:04:03Bill Simmons?

  Ang Lee?

• 2:04:04Speaker 05

  Yes, and Jim, same class, and Jim Jarmusch were two years ahead of us.

• 2:04:09Speaker 05

  So Jim Jarmusch had white hair even back then, so when Jim Jarmusch's Strange in Paradise hit, we were like, that was, we were so happy because look, Alastair was before us at NYU, Marty was before us at NYU, so we loved them, but we didn't, they were in our class.

• 2:04:24Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:04:25Speaker 05

  They weren't in the building when we did it, you know, so when, when Jarmusch, I, I always give my love to Jim Jarmusch because he made it possible.

• 2:04:36Speaker 05

  That Independence Day was where it goes. Everything Jim did with Stranger Paranoid, I did what she's gonna have it. I followed the festival thing and all like that. So I'm a, I'm a teacher. I've been teaching there 30 years.

• 2:04:49Speaker 05

  Every Thursday. But when I'm shooting a film, I take the semester off.

• 2:04:54Speaker 05

  But I love teaching class. I love it. I'm not gonna name people several, more than several people working today. You know, I was their professor, not, not that was only professor. Yeah. But, you know, I helped them. And it's gratifying to see young people

• 2:05:18Speaker 05

  win. You know, and that, and that even for a class, I have class from, I have lunch from one to two, from two to four, from two to five or six, depending upon the film we're showing. A lot of the time we have guests.

• 2:05:36Speaker 05

  And from seven to 12, I have advisement where 30 minute slots. Students come in, I look at their films, I read their scripts, stuff like that. And we had one, so we watched,

• 2:05:52Speaker 05

  what was the film? Close Encounters. So the lights go up. Oh, I just watched that movie. Right, the film. I watched, the lights come up and then

• 2:06:01Speaker 05

  Steven Spielberg walks down behind them. They, come on. They said, because he was gracious enough to, to come to my class. Oh, my God. People went motherfucking crazy. Just saw the great, you know, Close Encounters, the lights come up and he's there, walking the aisle. So anytime we have guests, we surprise them. Same thing happened with Edward Norton with your film, 25th Hour. So when I can, I have guests because

• 2:06:28Speaker 05

  I just wanted to hear one voice. Yeah, Spike said, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma, ma. You bring in the person that wrote the script, the person that's writing it, you know, the, the, the wrote it, the star of it, the producer of it. It just makes it a, you know.

• 2:06:40Bill Simmons?

  I mean Spielberg walking in, they probably not even, they're probably just so stunned. It's not even a reaction.

• 2:06:45Speaker 05

  No, they started cheering.

• 2:06:47Bill Simmons?

  Thank oh my God.

• 2:06:48Speaker 05

  They started cheering and clapping and they were happy. And, and, and Stephen, he, he told me he really liked that, that, that he had a chance to speak to, you know.

• 2:06:58Bill Simmons?

  How are you feeling about the state of black filmmakers these days, especially the younger ones?

• 2:07:03Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, and you can't, and look, everybody's excited about what Ryan's done. But he's not the only one. And so it, it's, it's still a, a struggle. And so you gotta keep on keeping on, you know? It, it, that's just the nature of the business, you know? So.

• 2:07:22Bill Simmons?

  The one thing that's changed, I think, the, the most severely in a good way.

• 2:07:25Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 2:07:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about when you did Malcolm X, it was initially gonna go to a white director, Norman Jewison, who was one of the, you know, one of the best directors.

• 2:07:34Speaker 05

  He's done several films with, Hurricane with Denzel.

• 2:07:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. But.

• 2:07:38Speaker 05

  And also.

• 2:07:38Bill Simmons?

  But in that case, the way Hollywood thought about that stuff, they never even, never even occurred to people like, yeah, maybe, maybe we should have a black director for this. And now it feels like that's shifted.

• 2:07:50Speaker 05

  But here's the thing though.

• 2:07:51Bill Simmons?

  Like with, with all types of people.

• 2:07:53Speaker 05

  If I only add this, here's the thing though, and not that many people know about this. That film was Norman Jewison's film.

• 2:07:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he developed it, right?

• 2:08:01Speaker 05

  With, with, with, uh, what's Marv's last name? Anyway, he, I made it known that, you know, I had a certain type of feeling about that. So Marv didn't work. He arranged a meeting between Norman Jewison, the late, great Norman Jewison and I. And I just explained to Norman why I thought I should be director of the film. And Norman, we had a, a talk back and forth and, you know, excuse me.

• 2:08:28Speaker 05

  He bowed out gracefully. You know, he didn't have to do that. The film was his. The film was Norman's. He ch, now he chose Denzel. Denzel's part of that film, but even before me, also Denzel had done an off Broadway play that called When Chickens Come Home to Roost. But I gotta give.

• 2:08:47Speaker 05

  Shout out to Norman Jewison because he, if he could have said Spike, you know, F you, I'm directing it. But he didn't do that.

• 2:08:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and in the early nineties, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal.

• 2:09:00Bill Simmons?

  In fact, you probably would have been like, who's Spike Lee? Why does he think he should direct this?

• 2:09:03Speaker 05

  Well, I mean, I had done films before that was like.

• 2:09:06Bill Simmons?

  No, I know, but you'd only.

• 2:09:07Speaker 05

  No, I'm just saying, I'm getting a shout out, I'm complimenting.

• 2:09:11Bill Simmons?

  So what was the?

• 2:09:11Speaker 05

  The late, great, the late, great Norman Jewison.

• 2:09:13Bill Simmons?

  What's the biggest movie that you thought you were gonna do that you're the most excited to do and then you didn't do? Was there one that was like your great, your big kahuna?

• 2:09:22Speaker 05

  Uh, it's two. It was a Jackie Robinson movie, which I was gonna do with Ted Turner.

• 2:09:28Bill Simmons?

  Ooh.

• 2:09:28Speaker 05

  But my approach was I did not want to do a film just about 1947.

• 2:09:33Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:35Speaker 05

  I wanted to do a biopic and they chose not to, but you know, Chad did a great job. And the other script, which I mentioned is called Sabers Joe Lewis.

• 2:09:46Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 2:09:46Speaker 05

  Was I wrote with the great, great Bud Schubert. Bud Schubert was inducted, he's in the boxing hall of fame.

• 2:09:57Speaker 05

  Bud wrote Oscar on the waterfront. And through Cassandra, I got to meet Bud and we came very close. We wrote the script together. About the relationship between Joe Lewis and Max Schmell and all this stuff is happening.

• 2:10:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's actually a fascinating story that they became friends after and all of it.

• 2:10:20Speaker 05

  And, you know, Schmell was not a Nazi.

• 2:10:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:24Speaker 05

  But.

• 2:10:26Bill Simmons?

  Didn't happen.

• 2:10:26Speaker 05

  The first fight in Yankee Stadium, Joe then trained, got knocked out the second fight, he trained, knocked Schmell out. But the thing about this, the second fight, quarter second fight, FDR summoned Joe Lewis to the White House. And we'll say, come here, Joe. FDR was in a wheelchair that he sits. These are Muslims that were gonna beat the Nazis with. People thought that the winner of the Schmell and Lewis fight, the second fight, 938, would determine.

• 2:10:58Speaker 05

  The winner of World War Two.

• 2:11:01Speaker 05

  Jesus. And it went like Joe's here and and and post-war Germany Coca-Cola. America, all America wanted to get business in Germany. The war is over. And Coca-Cola needs a president, so they like Max Schmelzer to be president of Coca-Cola in Germany. Joe gets involved in drugs and stuff and he's a greeter and sees his power some some place, you know, some hotel in uh Las Vegas. And so it shifted. Joe and then broke and Schmelzer was the president of uh Coca-Cola.

• 2:11:41Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 2:11:41Speaker 05

  It's an epic film. And the writer.

• 2:11:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Joe became like a casino greeter, right? He just was like.

• 2:11:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and you know, he got into drugs, you know, and cocaine, stuff like that. But the fact that

• 2:11:56Speaker 05

  me and Bud became really tight.

• 2:11:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:59Speaker 05

  And this is a guy that wrote, you know, What Makes Sammy Run?

• 2:12:03Speaker 05

  Facing the crowd, the film after Waterfront. And there were several times where

• 2:12:13Speaker 05

  you you call me up, Spike, did you get the money yet? Yeah, he's a very particular voice. And I made a promise to Bud, the great Bud Showbrook, that on his deathbed, literally, I'll get this film made.

• 2:12:25Bill Simmons?

  It never happened.

• 2:12:26Speaker 05

  Not yet. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie, I'm not lying. We're getting to Bud. Bud, we're getting this film made.

• 2:12:34Bill Simmons?

  Could there be a Michael Jordan movie?

• 2:12:38Bill Simmons?

  Cause I feel like the documentaries are so good now, you almost couldn't.

• 2:12:42Speaker 05

  I wouldn't do it. I don't think Mike would want to do it either. I'm like, I can't speak for him, but right now, in my opinion, Mike just wants me left the fuck alone.

• 2:12:52Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:12:53Speaker 05

  Just leave me alone. I got my boat, I got this, I got my car thing going, you know, just let me, let me live my life. That's what I think I give a mic.

• 2:13:04Bill Simmons?

  Because I think The Last Dance is almost like the movie. Like, if you're gonna do a Michael Jordan movie, just watch The Last Dance. And I don't know if you could make a movie that's... You know, I thought Ali, I know you were interested in doing the Ali movie at some point. It's got some, with Will Smith, it's got some interesting stretches. But ultimately, like, Ali was such a one on one, it's hard to even play. How do you play him? There was nobody like him. We've never had a human being like him before or since.

• 2:13:30Speaker 05

  You know, but look, everybody makes their choices. And so, again, I'm gonna, I know I'm repeating myself, but I made a promise that the great Bud Schubert.

• 2:13:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:42Speaker 05

  I'm gonna get this film. For me, On the Waterfront is my favorite movie of all time. Of all time. Brando? I mean, look, ooh, what actor has done what Brando did in On the Waterfront? I could have been a contender. There's a funny scene where, in your favorite, one of your favorite films of mine.

• 2:14:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:04Speaker 05

  Twentieth Hour, where Barry Pepper accidentally broke Edward Norton's nose.

• 2:14:14Bill Simmons?

  For real, yeah.

• 2:14:15Speaker 05

  For real. And so, the ambulance is there, the camera's here, and the ambulance, I turn, I turn the alarm off, the whatever it is, the sign off. So the camera is in front of the ambulance. I said, Edward Norton's, look, give me one more take. Not one, just give me one take. Remember how Brando walked after he got beat up?

• 2:14:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:41Speaker 05

  He was walking up the steps from the thing. That's why they want you to walk to the museum, I mean, to pass the camera.

• 2:14:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:50Speaker 05

  And as soon as you pass the camera, I'll call a cut, get the ambulance to get your nose fixed.

• 2:14:55Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 2:14:56Speaker 05

  Remember, you remember when Brando, he got beat up in the shed?

• 2:15:00Bill Simmons?

  Brando had a weird hold over all the actors from like 1970, probably through Ed Norton, right? But now, it's, that's one of the things I always think about with movies and sports, like, enough time passes. And then if you're...

• 2:15:14Speaker 05

  But also in that film...

• 2:15:14Bill Simmons?

  Like, do you think like Chalamet has Brando in it?

• 2:15:17Speaker 05

  Brando played a boxer.

• 2:15:18Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:15:18Speaker 05

  I watched a boxer in that film.

• 2:15:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:25Bill Simmons?

  I had a Delroy Lindo thing I wanted to bring up before we go.

• 2:15:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:15:29Bill Simmons?

  Cause he's really good in Sinners, but he was also really good in your movie. I feel like he's having-

• 2:15:34Speaker 05

  Five Bloods also.

• 2:15:35Bill Simmons?

  I think he's having a renaissance.

• 2:15:36Speaker 05

  Also, he played my father in Crooklyn.

• 2:15:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:15:41Speaker 05

  Alfie Wood, he played my mother. That feeling semi autobiographical about the least going up in Brooklyn.

• 2:15:46Bill Simmons?

  I was trying to think of the sports equivalent of somebody having like the run he's having right now in movies.

• 2:15:50Speaker 05

  I'm happy for him.

• 2:15:51Bill Simmons?

  It's great.

• 2:15:52Speaker 05

  I'm happy for him.

• 2:15:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, cause you've-

• 2:15:54Speaker 05

  He should have won Oscar for supporting actor for The Five Bloods. That one scene in the film where he's speaking to the camera, going through the jungle and stuff like that.

• 2:16:05Bill Simmons?

  Awesome in that movie. So what's your next movie? Do you know yet?

• 2:16:09Speaker 05

  Don't know yet. And also, to be honest, I know, but I don't talk about stuff for what happens. I just, for me personally, I think that's a jinx.

• 2:16:19Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I see what you mean. So there might be a next movie.

• 2:16:22Speaker 05

  Oh, I'm not done yet.

• 2:16:24Bill Simmons?

  Are you at the point now where you're like, eh, mid-April, May, June, probably not filming?

• 2:16:31Speaker 05

  I pick dates.

• 2:16:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:33Speaker 05

  Act like, we gotta be going by this date.

• 2:16:35Bill Simmons?

  We're done by like March 29th. I have, I have business.

• 2:16:40Speaker 05

  Well, here's the thing though, because I gotta, I'm still teaching.

• 2:16:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:44Speaker 05

  So they let me off. You know, you have the fall semester and this rain semester. So they gotta know, well, I'm not gonna be teaching.

• 2:16:53Bill Simmons?

  So 40 years of Spike movies, what was the one that came out in a way that you look back now and you think, that's the closest to what I wanted the movie to be? Now, looking back, the most things went right. I feel the best about this. I did my job the best I possibly could have.

• 2:17:12Speaker 05

  I would say I've done the best I job. I would say I've done the best I could at that time.

• 2:17:18Bill Simmons?

  So you don't think of it that way? There's not one looking back years later, you're like, man, a lot of things went right for that one.

• 2:17:25Speaker 05

  Well, here's-

• 2:17:26Bill Simmons?

  Cause then you need like 20 things to go right, right?

• 2:17:28Speaker 05

  You're absolutely right. To make a movie is one of the hard things known to humankind. I say mankind, I say humankind. And there's so many things that are out of your control.

• 2:17:41Speaker 05

  So.

• 2:17:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you've one, one actor that you cast wrong. One, one scene that something got screwed up and the take wasn't what you wanted like.

• 2:17:50Speaker 05

  That's why I said is the hardest thing known to humankind. I think as far as you're in the art form. So I'm not saying as hard as digging a ditch in a coal mine in West Virginia. I'm not saying that.

• 2:18:03Bill Simmons?

  But. Well, the hardest thing now is going to be to win four straight NBA titles in a row with the second apron. That's the single hardest thing right now.

• 2:18:10Speaker 05

  Well.

• 2:18:10Bill Simmons?

  We'll never see it again.

• 2:18:11Speaker 05

  Well, as a person, as a Knicks fan, and we had it once through the 727 season. We don't have that luxury of having, how many rings you got 17?

• 2:18:21Bill Simmons?

  We have 17.

• 2:18:22Speaker 05

  All right, well, we.

• 2:18:23Bill Simmons?

  Unlike the Lakers who lie, they count the five Minneapolis ones. It's bullshit.

• 2:18:28Speaker 05

  Come on now, come on.

• 2:18:29Bill Simmons?

  Can't count those.

• 2:18:30Speaker 05

  That was a great robbery.

• 2:18:32Bill Simmons?

  It really was. Well, we'll see what happens now with the Lakers because they stumbled into one of the five best guys in the league.

• 2:18:40Speaker 05

  Now, that was not a stumble.

• 2:18:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, what, oh, what's your conspiracy theory?

• 2:18:44Speaker 05

  I ain't, you know, stumble, I know a stumble or a stumble, but.

• 2:18:48Bill Simmons?

  What are you trying to tell us, Spike?

• 2:18:51Speaker 05

  I, who was that? Was that Hogan's Hero? I know nothing.

• 2:18:58Speaker 05

  Did you like Hogan's Hero growing up?

• 2:19:00Bill Simmons?

  I, it was a little, it was five years before I was Brady Bunch, Partridge Family was my era. That was, that was, those are the.

• 2:19:08Speaker 05

  You know what's funny though? In Crooklyn, there's a scene.

• 2:19:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:12Speaker 05

  Where I, we used to have, have four siblings. So the, we had to vote.

• 2:19:20Speaker 05

  And the Partridge Family, the Gordy Bunch were back to back. And they came on the same time as the Knicks.

• 2:19:28Bill Simmons?

  Oh, really?

• 2:19:29Speaker 05

  On W T Channel nine. So always got outvoted. That scene is in the movie.

• 2:19:36Bill Simmons?

  I'm trying to think like, so what time would that have been?

• 2:19:40Speaker 06

  What?

• 2:19:41Bill Simmons?

  What time would that have, so the Knicks came on at seven?

• 2:19:43Speaker 06

  Seven, seven thirty.

• 2:19:44Bill Simmons?

  And Partridge and Brady Bunch were on at seven o'clock at night?

• 2:19:47Speaker 06

  Seven, yeah, seven thirty. Eight o'clock, eight o'clock.

• 2:19:50Bill Simmons?

  We really didn't have a lot of TV options back then.

• 2:19:53Speaker 06

  In New York, Channel two, four, five, seven, nine, eleven. That was it.

• 2:19:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:00Speaker 06

  That was it.

• 2:20:01Bill Simmons?

  We had the same, we had six in Boston.

• 2:20:04Bill Simmons?

  And that was all we had.

• 2:20:05Speaker 06

  All right, Spike, look, I want to thank you and also you do a great, great job, man.

• 2:20:12Speaker 06

  I mean, you know sports, even though you're from Boston, you know, you don't try. What did Yoda say about the word try?

• 2:20:18Bill Simmons?

  I tried.

• 2:20:20Speaker 06

  He didn't say that. Yoda did not say that. You know, my brother, what did Yoda say?

• 2:20:25Bill Simmons?

  Yoda?

• 2:20:27Speaker 06

  Yoda from Star Wars.

• 2:20:28Bill Simmons?

  What'd he say?

• 2:20:29Speaker 06

  There's no try, do. That, anytime one of my students, I have a stack, a zero, a stack, piles. A picture of Yoda and the quote. Anytime one of my students in class says the word try, I slap my fingers, my TA plops that piece of paper.

• 2:20:52Speaker 06

  Boom.

• 2:20:54Bill Simmons?

  That's it. Don't try.

• 2:20:55Speaker 06

  That word try gotta go. And, and, thank you, Mr. Lucas.

• 2:21:00Bill Simmons?

  I also want to point out you did this entire podcast with me with the 1986 Celtics finger behind your head.

• 2:21:07Speaker 06

  Oh, setup.

• 2:21:10Speaker 06

  You got me.

• 2:21:11Bill Simmons?

  I got you.

• 2:21:12Speaker 06

  Hey, any sport, Boston and New York is great.

• 2:21:16Bill Simmons?

  Spike, I hope I see you in the playoffs with a healthy Jason Tatum.

• 2:21:20Speaker 06

  You think he's coming back?

• 2:21:22Bill Simmons?

  I don't know.

• 2:21:24Speaker 06

  Well, look.

• 2:21:24Bill Simmons?

  I don't, as you said, this year's a write-off for us.

• 2:21:28Speaker 06

  If he comes back, I just hope he doesn't come back too soon and, and hurts it again.

• 2:21:32Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. We've all written off this year, but I think these guys are really competitive. And if you tell them May, they're gonna want to come back in April.

• 2:21:41Speaker 06

  I gotta go with my next thing, bud. What do you think about the Knicks this year? Go New York, go New York, go. Coming out the East.

• 2:21:51Bill Simmons?

  I think if, if it's a bet your life situation, they're the safest bet.

• 2:21:58Bill Simmons?

  I'm not sure I would do the bet, though. I still.

• 2:22:00Speaker 06

  You think the Cavaliers?

• 2:22:03Bill Simmons?

  I still feel like Milwaukee's gonna be heard from. I know everybody thinks that's crazy.

• 2:22:07Speaker 06

  Who's on that team, let's just be honest?

• 2:22:08Bill Simmons?

  I just have.

• 2:22:10Speaker 06

  Dave's not even there anymore. They gotta go.

• 2:22:12Bill Simmons?

  Having the best guy in the conference, I still value. So I have to mention them. And then I really wanna see Orlando, what those guys look together would be the other one. But you have the best chance.

• 2:22:21Speaker 06

  All right.

• 2:22:22Bill Simmons?

  And I don't trust.

• 2:22:23Speaker 06

  Coming out of the East, right?

• 2:22:23Bill Simmons?

  I don't trust the Cleveland thing at all, but you could argue that they just had a dumb playoff series. Garland was hurt. Indiana made a couple crazy shots and all of a sudden they got bounced. But that team won 64 games. So maybe they'll have the Eye of the Tiger now. Maybe that was like their Clubber Lane moment.

• 2:22:39Speaker 06

  Let me say, so let me ask a question. When New York wins, wins the meet championship, it's not a jinx. I'm just saying, we win next year. I wanna be on the show. I'm flying the next day.

• 2:22:52Bill Simmons?

  Spike, you're always invited on the show.

• 2:22:53Speaker 06

  Nah, I wanna come on a, since we, we have that all the time, talking about, we haven't won since the 72-73 season. And I wanna see, I wanna be in this scene, looking at you.

• 2:23:04Bill Simmons?

  You're always invited.

• 2:23:06Speaker 06

  Now, if I wanna be here the day after we win,

• 2:23:12Speaker 06

  so help me God.

• 2:23:14Bill Simmons?

  That sounds great. You, you bring Shalabey.

• 2:23:17Speaker 06

  What?

• 2:23:17Bill Simmons?

  We can bring Shalabey. We'll figure out your W fan movie.

• 2:23:20Speaker 06

  Good.

• 2:23:21Bill Simmons?

  I'm, uh, all right. Good to see you. Thank you.

• 2:23:25Speaker 06

  Oh, we left us on slow up.

• 2:23:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, oh, we gotta keep going?

• 2:23:28Speaker 06

  Last thing.

• 2:23:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:29Speaker 06

  You're watching the film.

• 2:23:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:31Speaker 06

  And how many times is Boston in this film?

• 2:23:37Speaker 06

  I'm asking, were you laughing when those things, when those things happened in the film?

• 2:23:41Bill Simmons?

  First of all, I know going into it, there's gonna be ship shots fired at Boston in the movie set in New York. So I'm just waiting.

• 2:23:48Speaker 06

  So you knew it.

• 2:23:49Bill Simmons?

  I'm waiting. So I see Rick Fox.

• 2:23:50Speaker 06

  Can I just say this? You knew those shotguns were coming, right?

• 2:23:53Bill Simmons?

  I knew it was coming, so I have my boat profess on.

• 2:23:55Speaker 06

  Bell barrel.

• 2:23:56Bill Simmons?

  Well, I knew it was coming. But then I saw Rick Fox and I was like, friendly face. Played with the Celtics for seven years. Played with Larry Bird. He won't be part of this Boston anti-propaganda. Nope. Boom. You had him. Then you had Turturro chanting, this Boston sucks in the subway with 50 people.

• 2:24:15Speaker 06

  Cry the subway car.

• 2:24:16Bill Simmons?

  You did a third thing, too. There was three different anti-Boston things in there. I'd noticed all of them.

• 2:24:22Speaker 06

  Well, look, all I can say is.

• 2:24:23Bill Simmons?

  Listen, you stay true to yourself. That's what makes you you.

• 2:24:26Speaker 06

  All I can say is, I love Montez Ben you.

• 2:24:30Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 2:24:31Bill Simmons?

  Thank you. All right, thanks so much to Spike Lee. Thanks to Danny Kelly. Thanks to Gahout and Eduardo and Sir Rudy as well. Good to have Sir Rudy back. Don't forget rewatchables, Rollerball last Monday and then Sinners coming up next Monday. So you have the whole weekend to watch. It's free on HBO Max. If you get HBO Max, just knock it out. A classic, an immediate classic. Anyway, enjoy the weekend and I will see you next week.

• 2:25:12Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Core Power Protein Shakes. You know how we always talk about the little things that separate great athletes? Post-workout recovery is a big factor.

• 2:25:56Bill Simmons?

  Core Power Protein Shakes help you keep going after your workout with high-quality protein to build muscle and electrolytes to help hydrate. It's all you need for your recovery in one bottle. Available in 26 and 42 gram protein options to pick what works best for you. Visit corepower.com to learn more. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, WildHorse9, John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner.

• 2:26:23Bill Simmons?

  Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island, Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.