Penn Badgley: Here’s Looking at ‘You’

Television, perhaps more than movies, has a way of etching its stars in stone. And few actors seem to be able to break the mold more than once. Which is what makes Penn Badgley’s career—first on Gossip Girl then You—special. We sit this week around the fifth and final season ofYou https://www.netflix.com/title/80211991 (7:00) to unpack its shocking series finale [spoiler] (9:13) and the political climate in which the show is coming to a close (12:10). Then, Penn opens up about the solitude of his west coast upbringing (19:50), his years as a child actor (23:19), and his beloved portrayal of Dan Humphrey on Gossip Girl (33:12). On the back-half, Badgley’s transformative trip to South America in 2012 (39:46), his spiritual journey into the Bahá'í Faith (42:38), and how these experiences led him to his wife, Domino (44:30). To close, he describes the intense physical experience of filming the You finale [spoiler] (51:36), what the ‘fantasy of Joe Goldberg’ reveals about masculinity today (55:55), and a fitting Dave Eggers passage from the prologue of The Executioner’s Song (1:03:22). We’re now on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@talkeasypod! Drop us a line at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. This episode was recorded at Spotify Studios. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Lemonada.

• 0:21Sam Fragoso?

  This is Talk Easy. I'm Sam Fragoso. Welcome to the show.

• 0:38Sam Fragoso?

  Today, actor Penn Badgley. Television, perhaps even more so than movies, I think, has a way of etching its stars into stone. I'm thinking about Alan Alda in MASH, George Wendt in Cheers, Kelsey Grammer in Frasier, actors who, if they were to walk down the street right now, would be called not by their name, but their characters. Hawkeye, Norm, Frasier. Something about the medium and its delivery system beamed into our living rooms, year after year, season after season, practically preserves the performer in formaldehyde, which is what makes Badgley's career kind of remarkable. He became known to most back in 2007 for his portrayal of

• 1:23Sam Fragoso?

  Dan Humphrey on Gossip Girl, playing this writerly Brooklyn teenager who was always looking from the outside in while he was attending his posh Upper East Side high school. The show carried on for six seasons over five years, catapulting Badgley, along with the rest of the cast, into the spotlight. "What people seemed to think of Dan seemed to be what people thought of me," Badgley said recently. The actor and character, inextricably linked. And so, as Gossip Girl ended, he pivoted. He toured with the band he created with friends, took bit parts in independent movies, and most importantly, he let some time pass.

• 2:05Sam Fragoso?

  Then finally came You, which stars Badgley as Joe Goldberg, a charming, obsessive stalker who goes to extreme measures, and even extreme feels like I'm understating it, to insert himself into the lives of women he's transfixed by. The show, which originally aired on Lifetime before breaking out and becoming a hit on Netflix, is a popular entry into the attractive but horrible serial killer subgenre. It's also now coming to a close. Here's a clip from the trailer of the final season of You.

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Hello, You. You're back in the greatest city in the world, thanks to the one person who could make it possible. Same, definitely. Took a bit of getting used to, but to live happily ever after, you had to bury your old self.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Hey! Don't please!

• 3:20Speaker 02

  You have a great life. It's just not worth the risk.

• 3:28Sam Fragoso?

  That was a clip from You, Season 5, now available to stream on Netflix. Badgley has spent the better part of, I think it's seven years, thinking about and turning over the character of Joe Goldberg, what he represents in our culture, what his popularity may say about us as viewers, and why we seem to keep coming back to characters, and frankly, people and politicians like Joe.

• 3:58Sam Fragoso?

  We talk about all of that and a whole lot more in today's conversation. We also discuss his podcast, Pod Crushed, his childhood, growing up in Washington, then Los Angeles, the challenges of being a child actor in Hollywood, and his spiritual journey into the Baha'i faith. Last thing before we get going, just to prevent spoilers, if you haven't reached the end of season five of You, we do make some references to it at the beginning and end of this conversation. I don't think they spoil the show in any kind of profound way, but if you are sensitive to spoilers in the year 2025, and I know some people are, we flag those moments in the description of this episode.

• 4:42Sam Fragoso?

  With that, here is actor and podcaster Penn Badgley.

• 5:02Sam Fragoso?

  Penn Badgley.

• 5:03Speaker 03

  Hello, Sam Fragoso. Am I saying your

• 5:06Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  last name right?

• 5:07Sam Fragoso?

  What did you think it was?

• 5:09Speaker 03

  Well, as I said it, I realized I haven't said it out loud.

• 5:12Sam Fragoso?

  You've heard it.

• 5:13Speaker 03

  And I hadn't heard it said out loud in a bit, so I was like, ooh, am I getting it right?

• 5:17Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 5:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:17Sam Fragoso?

  Hopefully by the end of this conversation, we can get you back as a listener.

• 5:23Speaker 03

  I would say something.

• 5:24Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  Because I don't, I don't listen to podcasts much these days.

• 5:26Sam Fragoso?

  You're retired.

• 5:28Speaker 03

  Well, or I just am tired. I, uh, I, because I, my, my life, it's, you know, it might sound annoying to people who don't have kids, but because I have kids, it's just, it's, it's that.

• 5:38Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  It's that, you know, you're

• 5:39Sam Fragoso?

  You have enough voices in the house already.

• 5:42Speaker 03

  Well, and it's time management, frankly, so I think, you know, YouTube, like YouTube, like sort of mindless scrolling on YouTube has taken up that little bit of extra time that I have, which is not great.

• 5:52Sam Fragoso?

  You're a big Joe Rogan guy, right?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  No, no, I'm not. I am not.

• 6:01Sam Fragoso?

  How are we doing?

• 6:02Speaker 03

  Good. I mean, I'm actually nearing the end of a press run here.

• 6:05Sam Fragoso?

  Yes.

• 6:06Speaker 03

  And this frankly is like a, it's just such a relaxed environment compared to what it often is. So it feels essentially finished.

• 6:15Sam Fragoso?

  I love that. I think that, I went into today's taping, knowing that you were at the end of the press run, and also thinking of this interview as like, your exit interview.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:25Sam Fragoso?

  For you.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:26Sam Fragoso?

  And to try to square away all the parts that you've been working through and unpacking for, what, five seasons of the show?

• 6:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, which amounts to nearly eight years.

• 6:38Sam Fragoso?

  Fifty hours?

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:40Sam Fragoso?

  For this last season, Joe gets to return to New York, where it all began back in 2018, on Nineteenth and Gramercy. Ahead of filming, the writers said the final season would be, quote, "a return to form." I want to start here. How did you interpret that? Like, had you felt the show had pivoted into something else in season four?

• 7:05Speaker 03

  So, so season four was like, it was released in two parts, and that was, I believe, the first time they did that. And some shows that works well with, ours was not crafted to be released that way. And what they had done, probably in that season more than any other, is they had front-loaded the first five episodes with this sort of distraction, like, we're gonna try and tell the same romantic story that you're accustomed to seeing. I mean, they do this more or less every season. It's a form and a formula, but I actually think for like, good reason. It works very well. You know, by the fifth episode, you're usually encountering the culmination and twist of the relationship. You know, the object of his desire, the you for that season, that you think in the first episode you'll be getting by the end.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  And then you have to remember midway through, that's never what this show is actually about. It's actually about the deconstruction of that, and how that's a complete lie. You know, so I think with the fourth season, because it was, for the first half, this murder mystery kind of thing, I think it stretched some audiences, like, I don't know if it's patience or tolerance or just enjoyment. It was just, it was a bit of a different show. However, I do think by the end of the fourth season, though, there was some of the most compelling and satisfying kind of you. Not only twists, but like, there I call them like, I don't know, revelations. You know, like, kind of those moments where the show, for all of its absurdity in camp,

• 8:30Speaker 03

  will say something that is so universally grounded and beautiful about like, relationships, you know, in just this one moment where it's like, wow, we went through all of that to have just this one little crystallization. So, anyway, the fourth season I remember really fondly and really enjoyed. But I guess, you know, there's this sense that it diverted a bit from the form, I suppose.

• 8:53Sam Fragoso?

  Closing a show is always hard, like, whether it's The Sopranos or You. And most people, part of the reason people like TV is that it doesn't end until it does.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. I agree, actually. I think the distinction you just made is like, that's the difference between film and TV. TV is meant, especially, you know, before you had like prestige television, the whole point was for it to run as long as it could. The concept was made to have no ending.

• 9:17Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  Like, Seinfeld is maybe such an obvious example, but it's a perfect example because that's prime, prime, like, the era of television, before it got long and filmic. It was meant to never end. There was no, that's not what it's about.

• 9:29Sam Fragoso?

  Is it a coincidence that both Seinfeld and You ends in a courthouse?

• 9:34Speaker 03

  No. Does it end in a courthouse or is it in a jail cell? Or is it the same thing?

• 9:39Sam Fragoso?

  It is the exact same thing. Everyone remembers that final scene in You where you're talking to imaginary people about the top button of the shirt. That's the final scene of Seinfeld.

• 9:52Speaker 03

  Wait a second. You know what's amazing? In the first episode of this season, there was this whole thing around continuity. Nobody would know this watching, of course. In the beginning, I've got the top button unbuttoned. But then we shot a scene later that I hadn't, so we, so we had like new wardrobe assistants, as we do every season because it's always a new crew. And I'd been talking, wasn't focusing, somebody had buttoned up my top button. We shot a scene and then I looked at it and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I suppose that was probably George Costanza here. I don't know who was positioned how, but, but I was just sort of like, this is, this is very important. I don't want that top button. And then, so then we, we had to figure out a moment where, where, where Kate would tell Joe to button up. And then it could, so anyway, that's.

• 10:36Sam Fragoso?

  I think we just closed the loop.

• 10:37Speaker 03

  This is crazy.

• 10:39Sam Fragoso?

  The nihilism of both the shows.

• 10:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's, oh, there's, that's definitely there, yeah.

• 10:43Sam Fragoso?

  It's not inconceivable that Jerry Seinfeld on the show Seinfeld could moonlight as a murderer.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  You're totally right. He's way too obsessive.

• 10:52Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, this is like the premise of an article on like The Atlantic or something.

• 10:56Speaker 03

  I actually really, really like this.

• 10:58Sam Fragoso?

  You want to write like this essay? This is like a Chuck Klosterman essay. I can see it already.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:03Sam Fragoso?

  Um, I just came up with this. This is really stupid.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  No, it's brilliant.

• 11:06Sam Fragoso?

  But okay, tell me this, though. You said recently that in this politically intensifying world, I don't think starting a show like you would make sense right now. It's ending at the right time. What do you mean by that?

• 11:19Speaker 03

  Well, it's not like my most profound statement that I'll stand by, but I think I agree with it. I think I agree.

• 11:25Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, at, at the end of this interview, we will be power ranking all the quotes that you want to stand by.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's great.

• 11:32Sam Fragoso?

  In, in, in order of profundity.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  I'll definitely stand by some of that Seinfeld stuff. I'll definitely stand by that. Let's see if I can stand by this one.

• 11:38Sam Fragoso?

  Well, the Seinfeld one was me.

• 11:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true.

• 11:42Speaker 03

  So, but I'm gonna probably, I'm gonna hopefully revise that. I'll take a bit of credit for it.

• 11:46Sam Fragoso?

  You are also good with other people's lines.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  That's true, yes. Best with them, really. To me, Joe is less fun. And that could just be because we've had, we've been experiencing him for so long. But I, I think the political stakes of this moment, you know, and forgive me if I say anything that's like hopelessly vague.

• 12:04Sam Fragoso?

  Why would I do that?

• 12:05Speaker 03

  Well, I'm trying to choose my words carefully because the stakes are high. You know, and I was, some people might say, well, what, seven years ago, was it really that different? And I think that's a fair, that's a fair point. However, political processes and tones and they have really intensified and magnified. And there, you can scarcely find, I think, at least an American who feels as though we are living in a time of like, whether you will call it ease or peace or tranquility or, or contentment or, or, or progress. So to me, the glorification of a, of a villain like.

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Joe is just not as fun of an enterprise. It was sort of imaginative and fantastical in 2017 when it was being shot.

• 12:51Sam Fragoso?

  So you're saying Joe really was more fun when Biden was president?

• 12:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I suppose that's what that is what I'm saying. You know, and it's not just it's not just us here politically. I mean, to me, I just feel like, you know, we're, of course, seeing a resurgence of a sort of leadership that is frighteningly close to Joe's psychological profile. Actually, I was just listening to a podcast about narcissism and leadership. It's always been there. Our culture has actually often rewarded it. So, you know, without intellectualizing it endlessly, as I could do, I think it's just basically this. I wouldn't want to start this journey with Joe now. As a viewer or as a human being, as an actor, I'm glad it's ending.

• 13:32Sam Fragoso?

  Why are you so careful in describing your politics?

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 13:36Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, I just as someone who comes from a family whose father was about as liberal as they get.

• 13:42Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 13:43Sam Fragoso?

  A man who ran for the governorship.

• 13:46Speaker 03

  That's true. Wow, yeah, yeah.

• 13:47Sam Fragoso?

  In 2008 in Washington under the Green Party, whose politics seem pretty left. I mean, and he described them once as radical to New York Magazine. And he said radical was the safest word I can use to describe my politics. Why are you so cautious to say how you feel?

• 14:06Speaker 03

  When it comes to politics?

• 14:07Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  I'll try to be simple and direct here rather than obfuscate anything. It actually comes down to a principle of my faith, which is non-involvement in political affairs, like not identifying with a political party. However, it is to also be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age you live in. So that's challenging, you know, so I'm a Baha'i.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  The Baha'i faith, for those who are listening, is just very briefly, it's an independent world religion based on the concept of the oneness of humanity. So and it originated in Iran in 1844, then then the Persian Empire. So there are places in the world where Baha'is have been persecuted since its inception, where this principle is even harder to abide by. You know, there's a culture of what we call constructive resilience.

• 14:52Sam Fragoso?

  But another one, another one of the tenants, I believe, is independent investigation of truth.

• 14:56Speaker 03

  Well, that's the first tenant. So you really can't declare as a Baha'i unless you've independently investigated it and actually ideally all the other religions for yourself so that you're really understanding what you're doing. And what you're engaging in, you know. You know, let me put it this way. It's kind of clear to me where I stand politically. But if I was to state that plainly, maybe not for your demographic, but thinking of others who might write it off, just like, oh, liberal. And to me, like, I'm not ready to write off at least half of the country because they identify as conservative as opposed to liberal, or Republican as opposed to Democrat. That's, that to me is a, is a hopelessly, comically, tragically binary framework.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  And right now, I think it's so important that we try to understand the processes which actually unite, bring people together so that there is more patience and tolerance, so that we can actually start to work together. So like, all of the problems that we're seeking to address in the world cannot be addressed until we achieve unity. And so, to me, I just really, really value trying to be a force of unity. And sometimes it means that I will be more reserved with my language around politics than, than I used to be.

• 16:05Sam Fragoso?

  Right. I mean, I, what I hear you saying is, in the early 90s, Michael Jordan had that quote about, you know, Republicans buy Nikes too.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 16:16Sam Fragoso?

  Which is why he did not bank and canvas for a Democratic candidate in his home state. And what I kind of hear is you saying Republicans have Netflix too.

• 16:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, Republicans button, the top button as well. My, my decision is, I don't know if his was, but to me, I would say, I'm not remotely concerned about, you know, Netflix's monetary gain, or

• 16:38Sam Fragoso?

  Or your own.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Or my own.

• 16:40Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Frankly, in Hollywood is essentially mostly liberal, and it's not hurting anybody's career to, to, to be outspoken liberally, you know what I'm saying? So I actually feel like it's, um, in some cases, you know, being more outspoken is, I think these days, easier and easier.

• 16:55Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  So, I'm actually doing it because, again, because this adherence to principle, and, you know, I adhere to that framework, and it's, that is what it is.

• 17:03Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah. It sounds nice. As someone who doesn't have a religion.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, totally.

• 17:08Sam Fragoso?

  I love that. You have a framework in which your decisions can be guided.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  I know, you know, and as somebody who grew up without that as well, like I didn't even think it was something that I wanted, needed, could abide by, and yet I continue to find it constantly just brings more and more coherence to my life and understanding and hopefully grace and, you know. But yeah, look, it's only going to become more difficult in my lifetime to do that principle, this trying to understand what it means to be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age you live in, to engage in the affairs of community building and society building, but to not identify with a political party and to constantly have to sort of explain yourself to because people wonder, you know. So, you know, anyway, that's.

• 17:54Sam Fragoso?

  Growing up, at what age were you told that you were born prematurely?

• 18:01Speaker 03

  What age was I told? Yeah, that's a good question. I have no recollection.

• 18:05Sam Fragoso?

  Because you nearly died many, many times.

• 18:07Speaker 03

  Yes, I did. In my first year, yeah, my heart and lungs would stop.

• 18:10Sam Fragoso?

  Your mother would have to, in the backseat of the car?

• 18:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, on the way home from the hospital. Yeah, resuscitate me.

• 18:16Sam Fragoso?

  And how would she do that?

• 18:18Speaker 03

  That was on the way home from the hospital after being there for.

• 18:21Sam Fragoso?

  Three weeks.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know better than I do at this point, you and my mom. She, you know, it's gentle. It's gentle on the chest. It's just palpitation on the chest. And then by the time I was like a year old, I'd progressed, like I was always getting healthier. So all someone had to do was just tap me, just touch me, and I would come back.

• 18:42Sam Fragoso?

  Do you have any memory of that?

• 18:44Speaker 03

  I know. I don't have any memory of it at all, but it's formative.

• 18:47Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, I mean, it's also uncommon.

• 18:49Speaker 03

  That's true. It is uncommon. And actually, you know, when I think I really let my, allowed myself to be like, yeah, that's an extreme way to be introduced to being a human and alive, was when I had a one-year-old and I realized. This entire year, if every day that boy had been multiple times a day, flatlining and we had to resuscitate him somehow, not only would I be more stressed out and different, he would be different. He would be so different. Cause he's so like happy and chill and just, that's different. There's an extremity to life that I somehow feel I've either always experienced or perceived.

• 19:27Sam Fragoso?

  What do you mean by that?

• 19:28Speaker 03

  So most simply, okay, so like, you know, I went into this career at 12 years old. I abandoned school very early on. The first time I stopped going to school conventionally, I think I was nine years old. Because we lived in the middle of nowhere, which is another extremity. A lot of isolation and only child.

• 19:44Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, let me, let me set it up like you're born in Baltimore.

• 19:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:48Sam Fragoso?

  You then move outside of Richmond, Virginia, eventually landing in Washington.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 19:54Sam Fragoso?

  Living on Tiger Mountain in the middle of nowhere at the age of eight.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  Yes. That was a super, super significant change of environment. My parents' marriage was already crumbling. It had been basically since my birth, but it was, it was particularly toxic at that point. And so, you know, the environment felt like it had an extreme solitude to it.

• 20:12Sam Fragoso?

  Before you moved to Los Angeles with your mother at 12, as your parents were splitting, you said that going to LA was an opportunity to put a pause on the collapsing family dynamic. What did that collapse look and sound like? How did you understand it?

• 20:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, just again, isolation. So the, the question that you asked about this premature birth and sort of flatlining every day and being, and then to me, I extend it to like celebrity to an extent. It's like being an only child, then even this show, like even this show, this role, where it's like, I'm always on set alone staring at an ex on the camera that's supposed to be a person, but it's not, and I don't have lines. So there's this interesting pattern that I've just noticed throughout, you know, as we all do when we're like reflecting in our life of just extreme isolation. So the way that that looked then, you know, a lot of tension in the home.

• 21:03Sam Fragoso?

  Over what?

• 21:04Speaker 03

  Well, you know, you have parents, right?

• 21:07Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, I do. My parents split up before I was one.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  OK, yeah, mine, mine should have so.

• 21:13Sam Fragoso?

  So. But why do you think that?

• 21:15Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, because I never saw them have any intimacy. And imagine how like, I think there's a tragic, there's a tragedy to both situations. To never feel and know explicitly why your parents got together or split up, which is the case for a lot of people whose parents split up before they have any conscious memory. You know, I get that. So for me, I think what I got was constant reminder of why they should split up. So that once they split up, once they split up, it was, that was a relief. I mean, I suppose maybe there might have been some mourning, but it had been almost like I was mourning my whole childhood because it was really, really, you know, they're just, just attention. They were, they were people who didn't, they didn't understand what brings people together and what keeps them together, I think, other than like so many of us, just a sort of chemical attraction.

• 21:57Sam Fragoso?

  Your father said, who I mentioned earlier, is deeply political, said, I live like a monk. I don't have a car, I don't have a TV. Early on, my lifestyle challenged Penn and influenced him. Do you think that's true?

• 22:11Speaker 03

  So having not been raised by him, any rigidity he had or has was, that's more kind of like his struggle with himself as opposed to a rigidity. I mean, sure, but I wasn't raised by him. So like, so when I encountered that rigidity, it was just like, OK, I'm not going to go there for that. You know, as most people who grew up without their fathers around in that way, you know, you kind of develop, you sort of know what you can go to them for and what you can't.

• 22:41Sam Fragoso?

  On your podcast, Pod Crushed, you and your co-host devote a lot of time to the age of 12.

• 22:48Speaker 03

  Yes, we do, yeah.

• 22:49Sam Fragoso?

  Which for you in 1998 seemed like a big year. Your parents split, you and your mother moved from Seattle to Los Angeles so you could pursue acting. So I'm curious, like, how did you think about that move? Like, did it, did it feel motivated by you or by her?

• 23:04Speaker 03

  It was definitely both. I mean, as she tells it and as I remember it, I definitely motivated it because I was like, I want to go. Like, what's holding us back? And.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  I motivated it a lot. And then I think my mother's role was to basically weigh like, all right, is this too crazy? Or, or is this something that can work? And I think the answer is kind of both. It is a little bit too crazy. It's a serious choice to make and I wouldn't actually recommend it to most people pursuing, you know, acting. I don't think that's what people should do because the rate of failure is just so high. Not, not to not pursue it, but at that age, I think you, I think really you should ideally wait. Also, it, it was gonna kind of work. I mean, and it, and it was a change of environment. The change of environment was really what I wanted more than anything. So it was, yeah, it was a combination of a, of a good and bad choice, I think.

• 23:57Sam Fragoso?

  Tell me the good and tell me the bad.

• 23:59Speaker 03

  Well, the good is that very early on, I started to be able to live a life that was very much outside of convention. The convention of say, school, just let alone that. I did, I stopped going to school again. I did not finish my fourth grade year. And then I went to fifth and sixth grade, did not complete my seventh grade year, did not attend school for eighth grade. I was in a homeschooling program.

• 24:19Sam Fragoso?

  All because you were working.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Yes. And so I tried this sort of like unschooling, homeschooling thing, basically doing math. While I was then like auditioning for plays and going into the city to, I worked for a radio station. A lot of just conventional experiences I was not having. I'm grateful for, to that because why? Well, I do feel that I think for myself and I do feel that I've found the sort of basis of like a, a good and happy life. And it has nothing to do with my career. So then the other thing is that I was able to also engage in a craft and very early on, that was what I was good enough at and what I enjoyed.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  And so that I could actually spend my life, as much as there are challenges to it, like I have spent my life doing what I, what I like to do and what I love to do. And I've been able to find a lot of meaning in that. So that to me is all the good. The bad is the kind of the obvious stuff. Just the superficiality of, of pursuing a career in acting, no matter what projects you get, no matter how good or bad you are. You know, there's such, such a huge focus on the way you look. And for anybody that early on, it's just, it's going to orient you in a way that is hard to undo and hard to work with later.

• 25:38Sam Fragoso?

  Did you not like how you looked?

• 25:41Speaker 03

  I mean, I think even if I did, it wouldn't have been better for me. But no, I didn't. I was chubby and I was, I was short as so many nine to 14 year olds are. But yeah, I, you know, I think, I think just the self consciousness that being in front of camera can, can induce is just, it's really, really high. And I think people who spend their life in front of camera, it's like you don't think about it much, maybe.

• 26:00Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 26:00Speaker 03

  You're, you're fine with it because there's an aspect of it that you are really good at. And then there's aspects that I think are invisible and silent that you can forget about that are constantly working on you too, you know?

• 26:10Sam Fragoso?

  I mean, what did that look like?

• 26:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:12Sam Fragoso?

  As you were a teenager?

• 26:14Speaker 03

  It's a constant sort of this hum of anxiety and self consciousness, like vowing yourself based on how you look. Now, again, in an age of social media, this is maybe how kids feel anyway. And maybe even before social media, this is of course how people feel in a pretty image obsessed, you know, culture as we have.

• 26:31Sam Fragoso?

  You told The Guardian that, quote, "I know I hated my body and simply I wanted a different one." What did you hate about it and what body did you want?

• 26:41Speaker 03

  So that, so you know, just to be transparent, that, that interview, and I really liked that article. And that's true. I mean, I did sort of, I did hate my body and I did want a different one. But, but I don't think if I, if pressed for more depth, like what would I have been able to say? Well, what don't I like about it? That it's not as beautiful as I would like it to be, that I, that I have breasts and love handles at 12 and 13 years old, you know? Like, I don't know what the more clinical definition of body dysmorphia would be. But I know that there were times where I was just like, oh my God, I just, just want a different body. You know, this sort of self loathing one can develop. And I suppose probably some of that came from, you know, the periods of extreme isolation that I, that I had as a child. There's just a lot of like, you know, it's headiness.

• 27:26Speaker 03

  It's like, it's not being able to get outside of yourself and think about yourself. It would be so much, because ultimately the relief is not to embody something that's better. It's to just stop thinking about yourself, you know? And I think that's the challenge for all of us.

• 27:40Sam Fragoso?

  But you would think that kid wouldn't run towards acting.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  But what 12 year old is really that, is able to connect those dots?

• 27:46Sam Fragoso?

  I don't know, you seem pretty thoughtful.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Sure, but I mean, I was 12. And, you know, acting is not only the way you look. In fact, in its essence, it's the most meaningful parts of it are not that at all, you know. However, it ends up being a lot of what you do when it's professional. So I think I was having simultaneously like some really rich experiences in an acting class when I was like, you know, 13 or 14. The first film I was a part of was actually a really, really rich and rewarding one. It wasn't just a superficial endeavor. But then, of course, you know, those years of like, what, like, like 14 to 20, it was just a lot of things that, yeah, they weren't super substantive. And I started to see how much, how you get cast based on how you look. And that just was really frustrating.

• 28:30Sam Fragoso?

  The financial part of this equation, you know, we've had a lot of actors come on, a lot of child actors come on, and they often talk about the balance between being a kid that's the breadwinner and having a parent that's helping them reach their goals, but also benefiting from their child's success. How did you and your mother talk about money? Like, what was that dialogue like?

• 28:57Speaker 03

  We didn't really, we didn't talk about it enough, that's for sure. I wish we had more. Neither of my parents have a healthy relationship with money. So actually, yeah, I wish, I wish that there had been. My mom actually always, as having been a professional person, really wanted to continue working and having meaning that way. I mean, she still feels that way at 78. And then it became like a time management issue. Like, how is she gonna take me to these jobs and continue her work? So her work would go from part-time. Sometimes she wouldn't work. So I was never the sole breadwinner growing up. It was just like when I needed to and could support my parents, I would.

• 29:34Sam Fragoso?

  What do you wish the exchange could have been?

• 29:38Speaker 03

  Um, if I'd been maybe taught how to manage money, but of course, my parents didn't know how to do that very well. And you know, hats off to them anyway, because they, they tried.

• 29:49Sam Fragoso?

  It's hard. I mean, this is, there's no like playbook for this.

• 29:52Speaker 03

  No, yeah. Well, I think even, you know, financial literacy, I think for everybody is like, man, I wish I'd started this earlier. Why didn't they teach me this in school? Right? So not only did I not go to school, but I was like making a lot of money and then going through periods of none while I was still a young teenager. And then, and then, you know, by the time I was 20, I felt like I had been doing it forever.

• 30:10Sam Fragoso?

  Those eight years.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, those eight years, 12 to 20, really were like its own lifetime. And so I don't really know what the alternative could have been. I just wish there had been more talking about it.

• 30:20Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  Like just way more, just like transparency.

• 30:23Sam Fragoso?

  Transparency?

• 30:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:24Sam Fragoso?

  You didn't feel like you had that?

• 30:26Speaker 03

  No. And at the same time, it was not like anything was hidden at all. Like not even remotely. It was just sort of like, we didn't think about it because when it would come, it was great. When it wouldn't, we would budget.

• 30:42Sam Fragoso?

  After the break, more from Penn Badgley.

• 30:51Sam Fragoso?

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• 31:33Sam Fragoso?

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• 32:22Sam Fragoso?

  Coming back, you mentioned that eight year run from age 12 to age 20, which is around the time, I believe, you get offered Gossip Girl.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, 20, I was 20.

• 32:31Sam Fragoso?

  But you had already had like a lifetime of doing this by then. And I know you've talked about turning down the part initially, your resistance to Dan Humphrey. But you have this quote in Details, which is a magazine that no longer exists, in a story called Boys of Gossip Girl from Mark Harris, a very talented writer. You said, "The truth is, we all wanted this. We're living amazing lives, so that outweighs the negative shit. To do what we do, sometimes I feel like we're cheating the rest of the world."

• 33:04Speaker 03

  Those are big words from a 22 year old, probably, 23 year old.

• 33:06Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, but what did you mean by that?

• 33:09Speaker 03

  Well, I'm definitely speaking, I'm like trying to convince myself. I'm like, look, I wanted this, right?

• 33:15Sam Fragoso?

  To be fair, this did come after a paragraph of complaints.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah. Yeah. So I was probably trying to balance that.

• 33:24Sam Fragoso?

  What the hell were you convincing yourself of?

• 33:26Speaker 03

  Ah, I mean, I was probably trying to convince myself of what I'm saying, which is,

• 33:31Sam Fragoso?

  That it's amazing?

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was never going to be convinced that it was amazing. But I at least was probably trying to convince myself that I wanted this.

• 33:38Sam Fragoso?

  And you didn't?

• 33:39Speaker 03

  I wanted it enough to take the role, you know?

• 33:42Sam Fragoso?

  I'll just be transparent, like, I read that quote and I've read just about every profile you've done.

• 33:48Speaker 03

  My condolences. I don't know. I mean, research.

• 33:51Sam Fragoso?

  It's okay. It's okay. You'll have to pay for my therapy next week.

• 33:54Speaker 03

  That's fine.

• 33:55Sam Fragoso?

  What I find confusing, or I guess not confusing, what I find curious, every interview you do, it feels like you're apologizing for having made some good money on a show that people liked. And I just don't know why. Why do you frame it in such a way that feels kind of negative? Like, is it helpful for you to do that?

• 34:18Speaker 03

  No, definitely not. If it felt like I was apologizing or whatever you're saying, I think, you know, that is probably the difficulty I just had of being like, look, I'm being asked questions on a really public platform and just being like, I learned, at least in my late teens, doing like, you know, the random kind of things for these, these just sort of really, really frothy pop magazines, just learning that like journalists actually, you know, they're always taking their opinion and they're going to write what they want to write.

• 34:49Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  And, and I think what I constantly felt was like misrepresented or um.

• 34:55Sam Fragoso?

  It's the whole reason I started the show.

• 34:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:57Sam Fragoso?

  When I was 16, I started in journalism till I was 21 and wrote for magazines, did profiles of people, and I found, yeah, I could write it any which way I wanted. And the reason I made the show is because I wanted the guest to go, this is their voice.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:16Sam Fragoso?

  This is their story and I'm not reconstructing facts.

• 35:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:19Sam Fragoso?

  And I think that's why people like podcasts, frankly.

• 35:21Speaker 03

  I agree with that. Yeah, and I think actually what I was doing was interfacing with celebrity in a way that I think it's dangerous to take like every opportunity at that level at face value.

• 35:33Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  You just kind of never, you never know how you're going to be represented. You never know, you just never know. And so I think I was always quite guarded. And yet, at the same time, I was very transparent about certain aspects of it. I suppose what I was trying to do is like, look, I'm more than, than, than this, which, you know, if I could do it all again, I suppose, you know, the way that I've approached the press on this show is sort of the evolution of that. Um, also, also a concept that invites that kind of criticism and deconstruction and commentary. You know what I mean? It's a role that is asking for conversation around it, whereas like, I don't think Casa Girl was. So, so, you know, so, so in a sense, I was, maybe what I was trying to do was always have a more meaningful conversation than the one that was being had.

• 36:16Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm.

• 36:16Speaker 03

  Honestly, I think that's kind of what it was. Because if it's like, ask me about the character, I mean, okay, what is there to say? What's there to say? I mean, is, how is that, that should not be controversial. What is there to say? All right, so I'm here talking to Rolling Stone, talking to Details, talking to whomever. Okay, I'll try to say something meaningful, but it's probably gonna end up me being, you know, commenting more on the broader thing.

• 36:39Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  And that's, and I think that's what I was doing, and I think that came, it just came off the wrong way constantly.

• 36:44Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you're trying to imbue a meaning in Gossip Girl, which is like, you know.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  It's Teflon to that. Like, yeah.

• 36:51Sam Fragoso?

  By the way, I've seen all of it. I grew up with it. I thought it was great.

• 36:54Speaker 03

  I'm curious, what do you think Gossip Girl is good for? It's an honest question. What did it do for you, for a generation? What?

• 37:01Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, my value of it was like, this is unbelievable. I can't believe I'm about to do high school. This is what it's gonna be like? And then I went to high school and I was like, huh.

• 37:10Speaker 03

  It's nothing like that.

• 37:11Sam Fragoso?

  A lot less private jets.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:12Sam Fragoso?

  What happened?

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:14Sam Fragoso?

  What value did it bring to you?

• 37:16Speaker 03

  You know, when you're inside something, it's very hard to have perspective on it.

• 37:18Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 37:19Speaker 03

  And I think what I can recognize now is that Gossip Girl had a lot of meaning for a lot of people. You know, they'll say how important it was to them. And I guess I just wish I had a little bit more time to be like, hey, why? Look, I'm curious. What is it? I'm really curious and interested in that.

• 37:33Sam Fragoso?

  But also, it sounds like what you're saying is it didn't have that much meaning to you.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, as a concept, the premise is there's six or so kids, right? Who

• 37:45Speaker 03

  who are constantly betraying one another and sleeping with one another. And configuring in friendship relationships or romantic relationships in all these different ways. They can't just say, you know what, let's stop doing this because they've gotta have another season. So they just keep reconfiguring in a way. So what is it a story? It's about, it's about deeply enmeshed, really dysfunctional, really dysfunctional, probably like love and sex addicted young people who aren't aware enough of the privileges they have. So I don't know. I mean, like, in order to make it really meaningful, it would have to be a different show. Because if you just take it at face value, I mean, I'm sorry, but I don't think this should be controversial to say.

• 38:29Sam Fragoso?

  I don't think it is.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, I think I would love to have this conversation with Josh Wertz and Stephanie Savage, because they're brilliant people, and they're great writers. So what I'm saying is like, to me, to invest it with meaning, it has to have a different sort of paradigm. So I'm really curious to the people who did, you know, the people who made it and the people who watched it and loved it. Where's the meaning to you? What's that conversation? What's that, what's, what's happening there? Because I just never, it was just never for me.

• 38:53Sam Fragoso?

  I wanna talk about where you do find meaning, which I believe. Is in South America, little after Gossip Girl ends, where you embarked on this ayahuasca trip.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, for, yeah.

• 39:04Sam Fragoso?

  Did you have an idea that was motivating that trip?

• 39:08Speaker 03

  Yes, although I, definitely. I don't know exactly what I would have named it as then. I was seeking spiritually is how I would turn it now.

• 39:18Sam Fragoso?

  Is that the subtitle or the title?

• 39:19Speaker 03

  It's probably the title. I'd had enough experiences with psychedelics to feel as though there's an indication that there's something about reality that's not the everyday thing we talk about. It's just there's some purpose. There's meaning. And in that I found safety. Because growing up in a nihilistic culture, I think the purposelessness, the meaninglessness, felt really unsafe. And then growing up in Hollywood, coupled with my sort of home life experiences, just I, I didn't ever feel the, the, the, the safety that I needed. And so, and you know, that might go back to dying multiple times a day when I was a baby. It's probably connected.

• 40:02Sam Fragoso?

  I don't see how it couldn't be.

• 40:03Speaker 03

  I don't see how it couldn't be either. Um, so, you know, in a sense, it was like I was trying to treat what I would never have called then anxiety and depression because I felt like, well, it clearly has like sort of reasons. It's not like I'm just, I'm just anxious, I'm just depressed, which I think sometimes is how we use those words.

• 40:21Sam Fragoso?

  Right.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  I was like, well, it has, it has causes in culture. It has causes in my home life, my family life. So like, I think I was basically trying to find God. I wouldn't have used the term God, certainly not with a capital G. But I was, I was seeking spiritually. And so I, so I, I at that point was most compelled by, most interested in what kind of divinity there might be in plant medicine, you know, in the earth itself as this sort of organism. And I'd read about ayahuasca for years and finally had enough of a break to go and it aligned with the, the timing of the, like in between seasons. I believe it was April of 2011.

• 41:02Sam Fragoso?

  Hmm. What did your trip look like?

• 41:05Speaker 03

  I went to Colombia to stay in the, I believe the Tejana National Rainforest, like a reserve with a tribe called the Kogi Tribe, which is the largest pre-Columbian intact civilization. You know, their message was one of selflessness and service and stewardship of the planet. I think what the most of us were there doing was, it's like, we couldn't even approach that yet. We were trying to figure out our own shit. But I was very much into that, that message of selflessness and service and stewardship of the planet. That is part of what, you know, the BP oil spill, it happened in 2010, the year prior. And I remember it just feeling like, this is only intensifying.

• 41:39Sam Fragoso?

  You would protest the next year on Occupy Wall Street?

• 41:42Speaker 03

  Same year, later that year.

• 41:43Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 41:43Speaker 03

  And so, actually, the one other, like, 24-year-old white guy from New York City on that trip was a Baha'i. He's actually a person who had just become a Baha'i. His name is Ted. He was one of the many dozens of people who were sort of organizing in Tompkins Square Park before it became Occupy Wall Street. And so, I reconnected with him in those weeks and months after everybody was down in Zuccotti Park and being brutalized by police and protesting and meditating and organizing and just all kinds of things were happening. And so, it was there, on those streets, actually, where, you know, basically what he would share with me indirectly was aspects of the Baha'i teachings, which was linking that personal transformation that I was seeking,

• 42:25Speaker 03

  safety, meaning, purpose, and linking that to a similar process of transformation to society. And he was basically sharing the Baha'i framework for that very interaction of processes. And every now and then, I'd be like, what are you talking about, man? Like, what? It always seemed like this really strange and eccentric and beautiful thing that I was not interested in initially, actually, at all. Certainly did not want to pursue what I could call religion. I didn't perceive it even as a religion then. If I had, I would have turned right around. And it was really towards actually the another wave of protests in 2014 with the sort

• 43:08Speaker 03

  of the iteration of Black Lives Matter after the murder of Michael Brown. I think, what was it, August 10th or 9th of that year of 2014. So I started participating in protests a lot again then. And then I started reading some of those writings that I'd had with me, just like in my suitcase. And they started to become more meaningful. This thing about linking your spiritual transformation to social change. And then for about a year after that, I was more like, all right, what is this thing? What is this framework? And I really investigated it. And then about a year later, was when I became a Bahai.

• 43:41Sam Fragoso?

  And it's that same year that you meet your now wife?

• 43:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, during that process, yes. So like 2014.

• 43:47Sam Fragoso?

  So I'm trying to understand, because I was reading about the faith, and I did not have any idea what it was. But as I understand it, one of the tenets is the elimination of extreme wealth and poverty. That economic injustice is the root cause of societal disorder.

• 44:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:05Sam Fragoso?

  So when "You" comes around, which is first a Lifetime show, then picked up by Netflix, how did you go about squaring away that principle with making five seasons of a show for the largest, most profitable streaming platform in Hollywood? It sounds like you'd be at a crossroads that would be hard for you to navigate.

• 44:28Speaker 03

  Well, I think before I became a Bahai, I was actually really getting ready to what I felt like probably leave acting, you know? That's the way I felt.

• 44:37Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you told your wife before you got married that you never wanted to do a TV show again.

• 44:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I really did mean that, too. You know, I'd done something called "The Slap," which was like a mini-series on NBC.

• 44:50Sam Fragoso?

  Oh, I remember.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I just wasn't excited by what television seemed to be able to provide in terms of a storytelling. The framework and I felt like I'd done a lot of it, you know?

• 45:02Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  And, you know, I'd done a, I'd done a string of interesting but unsuccessful independent films, you know, great directors, great casts, great scripts, they just, they just didn't quite like come together in gel. I was nearing the red line, you know, like willing to work through that, trying to figure that out. This show came along and I similarly initially was going to pass. But you know, something I'll say about, about what happened for me as a Baha'i is that before I became a Baha'i, my notions of spirituality were really various and vague and probably superstitious. And I sort of was developing this somewhat ascetic kind of notion of like, you need to renounce more and renounce more and renounce more. And, and, and you need to go to the mountaintop, you know what I mean?

• 45:47Speaker 03

  But something about the Baha'i framework was sort of like, okay, maybe you can do that for a time, but that's certainly not the purpose. You need to bring that back to your life, to your family, to, to society. It can't just be for you there alone, you know, like meditating for days or years on end. You know, it's, it's about bringing the mountaintop to your life. And so in a sense, taking my show, You, was me kind of like returning to the position I'd been in, but having undergone something of a personal transformation. Yeah, but you're asking specifically about the, the economic component. I think like squaring up with the egregious economic injustice in any industry is extremely difficult, you know, if you're going to work in that at a high level and be very successful and

• 46:31Speaker 03

  proficient and, and visible. I guess like the, another approach would have been for me to simply not take it because I don't agree with this sort of like the, the practices of Netflix. And I didn't actually feel like, you know, Netflix is some evil company at all. I don't, I don't feel that now. I think all corporations are abiding by completely sociopathic principles where the bottom line is placed above every other, right? But that's literally just capitalism as it exists now. So.

• 46:57Sam Fragoso?

  Sociopathic like capitalism or sociopathic like Joe?

• 47:01Speaker 03

  What's the difference? I don't know, like, what is the difference? I was interested in this role ultimately because it like, it placed me in a position where I could actually be way more expressive and central to all of it. And I was ultimately still willing to turn away from it, which for for about a period of two weeks, I seriously thought I would and I and I was going to. And it was my conversations ultimately with my wife, which led me to to to

• 47:28Sam Fragoso?

  To doing it.

• 47:29Speaker 03

  To take it all.

• 47:29Sam Fragoso?

  We started today's episode talking about how launching a program like you now is less appealing to you because of this idea of how we make heroes out of evil people. And to do that in this moment, under this current administration, just sounds less enjoyable and less interesting to you.

• 47:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 47:51Sam Fragoso?

  So I'm curious, like, as as an exit interview, now that you've done five seasons of it, why do you think we make heroes out of evil people?

• 48:02Speaker 03

  That's a great question. So here's here's maybe why, because we because we are afraid of and don't know how to make heroes of ourselves. We don't feel empowered enough to make heroes of ourselves. When a person feels powerless, it's very difficult to change that frame of mind, whether it's warranted or not, you know what I mean? So when you're powerless and it appears as if someone can be your protector, you you want that. And taking away the term evil is maybe a bit, it's like loaded and has all these kind of mythical connotations. What does evil actually mean? Narcissistic? Let's just take that one on. You know, somebody who's confident and willing to be disagreeable. Somebody to say, no, I don't want that, I want that.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  To somebody who feels powerless, that's very attractive. You really want that. Somebody who seems sure about what they can do. You want that. You feel you need that. You don't know how to do that for yourself. So if you can't do it for yourself, you're you're magnified to somebody who can.

• 49:03Sam Fragoso?

  That's sounding more and more like someone who's a

• 49:07Speaker 03

  Yes. People in power and Joe. So to me, you know, the same principles that apply to a human being, they apply to the world, to a society. They have to, they must. We're all humans, right? So it's like, there's a reason this stuff tracks and then it's socially resonant.

• 49:21Sam Fragoso?

  But this final season of the show also feels as much about you as it does us. It's an inversion of it's not you, it's me. Like, the show is kind of suggesting it's not me, it's you at the end.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:36Sam Fragoso?

  And I wonder, like, where you have landed on the complicity of the audience in all of this.

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:44Sam Fragoso?

  Especially around Luigi and Angione and that killing and how people have cheered him on the way that they've cheered you on throughout this run.

• 49:56Speaker 03

  First of all, the show was constructed to like encourage audience complicity. So I think like, and I've always sort of been doing my thing on, on social media, tongue in cheek, like, it's obvious, we all know he's a bad guy. I mean, you know, there, there is a contingent of people, men and women, who see him just maybe ultimately as an alluring figure, just really powerful and stuff. But for the most part, everybody gets the whole exercise. So we're kind of going through it together. And I feel like, um, maybe some people feel in the ending, it's, it's, it's condescending. But then on the other hand, I think it's, uh, it's an interesting reflective enterprise. And you started this interview by talking about how hard it is to end a show. It's so true. This show was made to end more than most. You can't keep this thing going in perpetuity. It's just too much.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  Nobody wants to watch that, or it just becomes too repetitive.

• 50:43Sam Fragoso?

  When you were shooting those final scenes at two in the morning, I read that you had a, like a physical reaction.

• 50:52Speaker 03

  I found that, um, because I'm in the rain in my underwear, and even though it was summer, that it's shockingly cold when you're just, just being drenched in like a shower. It's not like a rain, it's like a shower. Um, and it's loud. And it was the end of this two to three week filming schedule where just, you know, just physically so taxing.

• 51:13Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  And I'm saying my last lines as Joe Goldberg. And I found it impossible to say them. It was weird. It's kind of hard to remember well, to explain it well. But like, I couldn't do anything other than what you see. I couldn't perform. I found that my neck muscles were giving out in a way that I couldn't articulate. I couldn't measure, manage, control, like, the, sort of, the airflow and the enunci- you know, I just literally was like, the only way I could do it was just sort of force it up. And in some ways, to me, I was like, really frustrated. I thought that was, I was like, I can't do anything else. I wish I could do something else because I'd like to add things to this. I'd like to manipulate it. I'd like to perform, you know?

• 51:58Speaker 03

  And in some ways, I felt like what I was doing is really uninteresting. But then I also realized, after the fact, like, it's fitting that at the end, Joe is not interesting. He's a lizard, you know? He's, he's just this highly predictable, low, narrow-minded state. It's actually not interesting when exploring it, year after year after year. I actually think it's not just him. I think anybody like him, truly being explored over time, I think you just have diminishing returns. Because they're not the most complex people. Actually, people who are capable of great good are probably the most complex. We sort of think of good and light sometimes in a saccharine and one-dimensional way. But I think people who are truly capable of accomplishing meaningful social change, justice, personal change,

• 52:43Speaker 03

  that has the most complexity and depth, not psychopathy or psychopathy, you know?

• 52:47Sam Fragoso?

  It sounds like an exorcism.

• 52:49Speaker 03

  I wasn't even really able to get it up and out. It just felt like I wasn't able to do anything with it.

• 52:54Sam Fragoso?

  Okay.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  So it's more like it's sort of sitting-

• 52:56Sam Fragoso?

  It's still in there.

• 52:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, probably. It really was just sort of like-

• 52:59Sam Fragoso?

  You wanted to bring in a paper bag?

• 53:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 03

  It actually would have been great to feel like I had vomited him up. But no, I didn't quite feel that way.

• 53:07Sam Fragoso?

  Like an Iowa hospital.

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, just like it. Although I always struggled with that part.

• 53:11Sam Fragoso?

  What do you think the neck tightening was about?

• 53:15Speaker 03

  On one hand, it was probably- Just purely physiologically, like, the result of fatigue.

• 53:21Sam Fragoso?

  Mm-hmm.

• 53:22Speaker 03

  But, you know, a great fatigue, not just physical, like, emotional and spiritual, just having done this for so long.

• 53:28Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah.

• 53:28Speaker 03

  This isn't like, um, a flattering thing to say about myself as an actor at all. But I honestly just like, it just felt uninteresting. It felt dull. There's times where I feel like I could dig in this character and do so much with him. That wasn't one of them. You know? I would have liked to have felt that way at the very end. I would have loved to have felt like I'm never more able than at the very end. And yet, I couldn't have felt less so.

• 53:55Sam Fragoso?

  So then, what does it feel like now?

• 53:58Speaker 03

  I don't know yet.

• 53:59Sam Fragoso?

  What does your wife think?

• 54:03Speaker 03

  She's happy for me, cause, you know, wha- what I'm entering into now is a phase of production, where I'm gonna really try my hand at developing and producing and writing things that, that I'm generating from the ground up. So that all the things that I'm interested in aren't being like, maybe shoehorned in or sort of added on top, but they're sort of in the thing, you know?

• 54:28Sam Fragoso?

  I was thinking, watching the end of the show, and there's that interaction between Joe and his son. And as I was walking here, I thought, oh, man. You have a couple of kids of your own. You're expecting twins this summer?

• 54:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, boys, identical boys, so we're gonna have four boys.

• 54:44Sam Fragoso?

  Four boys. That will one day become four men.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:49Sam Fragoso?

  And there's just something moving and haunting and terrifying and kind of beautiful, having invested as much as you did in this program, gone through every like, nook and cranny of the male consciousness and it's worst parts. Where does it land with you?

• 55:09Speaker 03

  Well, there is something about raising boys into men that like, we've not understood well enough yet. We, meaning like, a culture, a society. Are we gonna do it perfectly, meaning my wife and I? No. Are we doing better than we think our parents did? I think so. And I say that with love for my parents. In fact, my, my mom is currently moving in with us, you know? And that's a beautiful, beautiful thing.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  What this has been for me to play Joe has been, or rather, there's nothing I've done more than. Explore masculinity and therefore my own. And we live in an era where I think like the word in and of itself, depending on who you are, it has a connotation of like definitely good or definitely bad.

• 55:54Sam Fragoso?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:54Speaker 03

  You know? And it's it's so many things that we have not yet identified, I think, to be a man, like masculinity. And this show was an opportunity to really understand the subtle and nuanced ways in which masculinity can be. Because the obvious ones of like the serious abuse and violence, that's not the that's obvious. But taking away all the baggage that exists in the phrase toxic masculinity right now, because a lot of people would roll their eyes at that now. But it's like, OK, so what makes aspects of masculinity toxic? What is that? It's not just that masculinity is toxic. That's that's actually self hatred. To say that is to say a hateful and inhuman thing. That's not true. What makes it toxic? And then what is it?

• 56:38Speaker 03

  Which is not masculine, actually. That, to me, is what this whole thing has been a meditation on like. And so then, as an actor, what that becomes has been, which has been really nice, is at some point, Joe was an innocent boy, just like my four boys. So like, what happened to Joe to try to make him a real person for a moment? What happened to him when he was a boy? OK, so he was abused. All right, a lot of people are abused. What is it that made him become? What made him toxic then, rather than something else? He didn't understand when the abuse was over. And that's the definition of trauma, as I understand it. The state of a traumatized person is to not be able to really know and feel and experience that the abuse has ended.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  So you're always on guard, always on guard. Doesn't matter where you are, doesn't matter what's happening. You don't realize it, you don't think of it that way at all. You know, you're safe, but actually, your nervous system is not aware. Your nervous system is waiting.

• 57:34Sam Fragoso?

  It sounds like you're describing yourself.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  I am, yeah, very simply. And, yeah. And that's that's, you know, that's why I understand it really well. And that's why it's been a beautiful, sometimes healing, sometimes wounding and very intense experience.

• 57:55Sam Fragoso?

  You're right.

• 57:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, thanks for asking that way. I am, actually. It's impossible to describe, you know, when you're not okay and you're in this position of being interviewed. It's impossible to describe how you're not, and it's not even the place to do it. I don't even mean for myself. I think I see other people in my position and I'm like, man, I know you're not okay. I wish you felt like you could say you're not. And, you know, and I extend that to actually everybody. I mean, that really is, you know,

• 58:32Speaker 03

  acknowledging when you're not okay and being able to say that you're not, that actually takes a lot of strength. That's masculine.

• 58:39Speaker 03

  That is masculine. Not to do the thing that we think is masculine and just say, I'm fine. And where do you put it? By your neck.

• 58:46Sam Fragoso?

  But aren't you telling me right now that you're fine?

• 58:50Speaker 03

  I'm both. I really am. I really am. Because of my family and because of my faith. Ultimately, the thing is my faith in God, you know, and my relationship there. I pray and meditate every day. That's deeply, it's so immediate and urgent for me. It's not like a vague notion, you know? It's a very real thing. That tethers me.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  And then, of course, you experience that through family, kind of in such a beautiful and intense way.

• 59:21Sam Fragoso?

  You end almost every episode of Podcrushed asking your guests, if you could go back to your 12-year-old self, what would you say or do, if anything?

• 59:34Sam Fragoso?

  As we talked about earlier, when you were 12, this is you and your mother moving to Los Angeles. Your parents splitting up. You're getting your first professional work in this industry. Have you thought about what you would say? How you would go about answering that?

• 59:50Speaker 03

  So we've asked a hundred or so people this question. The essence of everybody's answer is like, it's gonna be okay? And they have their own kind of spin on that.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  I don't, you know, that's so that's the essence of what I would wanna communicate. But like, how would I do that in a way that he would really hear it and listen?

• 1:00:08Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, how would you do that?

• 1:00:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know. That's what I'm kinda working on because, you know, so of my four boys, one of them has been 12. He's 16 and he's my stepson and his dad's always been in his life. So he was like, cause I'm his third parent, thank God. That was like a, the first pancake, like trying to, there are things that I know that I would do differently for his formative years, you know? So I think with the next three, I'll figure out that, like, the answer to that question, you know? And for the 16 year old, I'm really learning actually how I can do that. I, I think our relationship gets better and better the older he gets. Cause I can talk to him in a way that is like that third parent thing. It's just different.

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  And then with the younger ones, it's like, I'm really their dad. And sometimes you only know how to answer these things as they happen. But the key would be to really, to communicate love, to know that that's masculine too. To really love, to be sensitive, you know? So going back to the safety thing, you, you would only need to say, it's gonna be okay to people who do not know it's going to be okay. Which means to some degree, every 12 year old does not think it's going to be okay. And what does that say? That's, that says there's a need we're really not seeing and addressing for them, for us, for all of us.

• 1:01:36Speaker 03

  So one person can't address that alone. But as a father, I hope I can provide for them a bit more than what my parents were unable to provide for me, which is the feeling that it's gonna be okay. And it would be silly to think that I, that my wife and I will be able to suddenly just stop that cycle. Suddenly, a 12 year old who feels that they're going to be okay, you know? They probably won't feel that they're gonna be okay. But I wanna at least get closer, you know?

• 1:02:05Sam Fragoso?

  I wish that for you too.

• 1:02:06Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:02:07Sam Fragoso?

  I remember being told that, just a 12 year old.

• 1:02:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, and like, did it mean anything to you then?

• 1:02:12Sam Fragoso?

  You know, it is a nice sentiment, but I don't think it's true.

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, it got worse for me after 12, in ways.

• 1:02:20Sam Fragoso?

  Yeah, you had to be on Gossip Girl.

• 1:02:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, the worst thing in the world. What a miserable experience.

• 1:02:28Sam Fragoso?

  I guess my last question for you. At the end of You, we find Joe in a cell reading Norman Mailer's The Executioner's Song. And in the foreword of a new edition of the book, there is a passage from Dave Eggers that I thought perhaps you'd want to read and see where it landed.

• 1:02:50Speaker 03

  Murderers are fully human, too. And there is beauty to their lives, and joy in their days, and love, and music, and even aspirations of bliss, or at least peace. The terrible, exasperating thing about humans is how goodness and gentleness, and utter depravity and disregard for human life can be contained within the same person and in terrifyingly close proximity. Maybe we learn that Gary Gilmore was fully human, but not fully equipped to live among us. That we're essentially a decent people wanting contentment and prosperity for all, seeking harmony so tenaciously

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  that we need to kill those who threaten it. And maybe it's not what we learn that's crucial, but the questions we're left with. Will we always be a manic-depressive nation of the greatest and most vile achievements? Will we always be a nation of both astronauts and mass murderers? The Executioner's Song doesn't answer these questions, but it comes as close to solving the enigma of America as any other work of art we have. Yeah, that's beautiful. There's so much of it that I love because it's clearly true, a lot of it. "The terrible, exasperating thing about humans is how goodness and gentleness, and utter depravity and disregard for human life can be contained within the same person and in terrifyingly close proximity." Yes.

• 1:04:18Speaker 03

  I would say there's a touch of, and you know, Dave Eggers is a genius, and I've cropped out plenty, so I'm not accusing him of anything I wouldn't accuse myself, but where he says, "Maybe it's not what we learn that's crucial, but the questions we're left with." I would say that's a bit of a cop-out that we all engage in. I think it is crucial, what we learn.

• 1:04:38Sam Fragoso?

  So what have you learned?

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  I don't, you know, and I'm making no claim that this is in my performance, that it's in the show. But what I have learned is what I share with Joe. The sources of grief and rage in me. And sometimes I was able to apply that to the character in my performance, but more often I was able to apply it to my own character in life and in my family. And I actually, because I have to live with myself, and even the people who I work alongside have to live with me, and we all have to live with each other. I think what I've learned is that I value that experience, like, on the ground,

• 1:05:24Speaker 03

  not what people see, but the experience at least as much as the final product. And I think what I've learned is to appreciate the process more than the results. I do think that not only this business, but a lot of American culture and the way we approach capitalism or embody it is so results-oriented. It just completely disregards process for the ends, for the result. That's something of what I've learned, yeah.

• 1:05:49Sam Fragoso?

  Well, I've enjoyed the process of making this episode with you.

• 1:05:53Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:05:54Sam Fragoso?

  The results?

• 1:05:55Speaker 03

  You know.

• 1:05:56Sam Fragoso?

  Not for us to say.

• 1:05:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:05:58Sam Fragoso?

  It's for the listeners.

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is true.

• 1:06:00Sam Fragoso?

  And whatever is next for you on the other side, I hope it is a project that you can bring yourself to.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  Hmm, thank you.

• 1:06:11Sam Fragoso?

  It's meant a whole lot that you've sat down for this long and answered everything.

• 1:06:15Speaker 03

  It's been a really enjoyable process.

• 1:06:18Sam Fragoso?

  Good luck this summer.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  Thank you, thank you, Sam.

• 1:06:54Sam Fragoso?

  And that's our show.

• 1:06:57Sam Fragoso?

  If you enjoyed that episode with Penn, it would mean a whole lot to us if you shared the program on social media. You can tag us at Talk Easy Pod. If you don't have social media, or just trying to be on there less, I understand, share it with a friend, a family member, anyone that you think may enjoy the kind of show we make here each and every week. I want to give a special thanks to the teams at Lead Company, Netflix, and Lemonada Media. I also want to thank my friend Tara Duncan and our guest Penn Badgley. For more talks with other great television stars, I'd recommend Dan Levy, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and Quinta Brunson. To hear those and more Lemonada podcasts, listen on Apple, Spotify,

• 1:07:41Sam Fragoso?

  or wherever you listen. If you want to purchase one of our mugs, they come in cream or navy. You can visit talkeasypod.com/shop. Talk Easy is produced by Caroline Reebok. Our executive producer is Janix Bravo. Today's talk was edited by Adam Jamal and mixed by Andrew Vastola. Our video editors are Chris Hines and Ariel Gardner. This episode was taped out of Spotify Studios in New York City. Our music is by Dylan Peck. Our illustrations are by Khrusha Shanoy. Photographs today come from Sarah Schneider. Additional research from Ben Eisen. This episode was made in partnership with the good people at Lemonada

• 1:08:22Sam Fragoso?

  Media. And I'm Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening to another episode of Talk Easy. I'll see you back here next week with a brand new one. Until then, stay safe and solom.

• 1:08:45Speaker 04

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• 1:10:06Speaker 05

  I'm Dan Heath. On What It's Like to Be, I interview people about their jobs. Here's a married couple that drives a long haul truck together.

• 1:10:14Speaker 06

  We backed up and they loaded fresh dead rats.

• 1:10:17Speaker 05

  I mean, how many rats would you guess were back there?

• 1:10:20Speaker 06

  There were 32,000 pounds of them.

• 1:10:22Speaker 05

  32,000 pounds of frozen dead rats.

• 1:10:29Speaker 05

  Find out what it's like to be a long haul trucker, a couples therapist, or an FBI agent, all on the podcast What It's Like to Be.