#2502 - David Paulides

David Paulides is a writer, investigator, filmmaker, and former law enforcement officer. He is the author of the “Missing 411” series, which explores unexplained disappearances in North American wilderness and national parks, as well as several books about Bigfoot. His latest films, “American Sasquatch” and “Missing 411: National Parks - Washington State,” are available on most streaming platforms.www.youtube.com/@canammissingprojectwww.canammissing.comwww.davidpaulides.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/rogan Get Visible for just $20/mo for 1 year. Use code FRESHSTART. Switch & see terms at https://www.visible.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:05Joe Rogan?

  Show me my day, Joe Rogan Podcast, my night, all day. David, welcome to the show. Pull on up to the microphone, get that sucker up like a fist from your face. I first heard about you from that guy, Art Bell, the goat.

• 0:22Speaker 02

  The greatest.

• 0:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he was, I used to love listening to his show, coming home from the Comedy Store. We'd come home at like 1 o'clock in the morning, coast to coast with Art Bell from the Kingdom of Nye. It was awesome. And that's when I first got turned on to your work. So tell everybody, you started off in law enforcement, right? That's your background.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 0:47Joe Rogan?

  How did you get involved in this mystery of people going missing?

• 0:52Speaker 02

  So I'd already written a couple of books, and I was at Yosemite National Park doing some research on another topic. And two rangers are following me around. And I went back to my room that was at the park, and about an hour and a half later, one of the rangers comes to my room, and he's in plain clothes, and he knocks on my door, and he says, "Hey, Dave, I'm Ranger so-and-so, I'm here off duty, I want to talk to you about some missing people." I said, "Come on." So we start talking, and he says that he knew about me, probably the way he knew about me, and he says, "I know you're from law enforcement, somebody needs to look into this."

• 1:36Speaker 02

  About an hour and a half later, his partner shows up at the door, and they said that they've worked at different parks over the years, and while they were working at those parks, there were missing people. And he said, "At the beginning, there was a lot of publicity, a lot of people interested, a lot of activity, and then with time, within about 10, 15 days, all of that would end."

• 2:00Speaker 02

  And he said, "We got concerned and we did a Freedom of Information Act against our own agency to get the reports and we couldn't get the reports. And then we did a Freedom of Information Act request on other cases and we couldn't get the reports. And we got concerned because after that initial 10, 14 day period of searching is all over, there's nothing else that happens. That's it." And he said, "Somebody ought to look into this because there's a lot of people missing and the Parks Service doesn't talk about it."

• 2:32Joe Rogan?

  Now, what was he assuming? Was he assuming something nefarious was going on or was he assuming that it was a lack of commitment to finding the bodies? Because you've got to assume most people after 14 days lost in the woods are probably going to die.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  I think all the above. He thought that there were too many people going missing. There wasn't enough follow-up being done and nobody seemed to care.

• 2:57Joe Rogan?

  So if you were being pragmatic and you weren't like diving into mysteries and the stuff that I like, the fun stuff, you would say, "Well, they don't have any resources." You know, "There's not enough people to go looking." When you think about the actual square miles that you would have to cover to find a body and then also the reality of predators and all these different animals that are going to eat bodies if a body's there, there's not going to be much left. You spent, obviously, you spent time in the woods. Have you ever seen a dead mountain lion?

• 3:26Speaker 02

  No. I've never seen, I've never seen a dead bear.

• 3:31Joe Rogan?

  Uh, I've only seen dead bears because I was hunting. I've never seen a dead bear. Well, no, that's not true. No, I did, we did find one. But I think it's very rare, but that one was recently dead. He was killed by another bear. I think most of the time when you find dead animals, it's very recent. And if an animal's dead and it's left alone in the woods within a certain amount of time, something's going to eat it. Everything's going to eat it, including the bones. There's almost nothing left by the time they get done with it.

• 4:04Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 4:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  But one thing I learned from being around rangers in all these years now is that there's few things that belong to us, that we go into the woods with, that are always going to be there, namely our shoes, belt buckles, belt buckles, leather, anything.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  The rubber waistband of your underwear, these kind of things stay forever. A rifle, a pistol, a bow. And those things you're gonna find. But getting back to the point of these guys, there were too many people going missing in a short period of time that no one seemed to care about. That was really their main focus. And somebody ought to look into it. Somebody ought to start collecting data. Nobody did. And maybe somebody from the outside, they're the inside, maybe somebody from the outside would have more luck putting this all together rather than them. That was kind of the gist of it.

• 5:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's some cases that are just flat out weird. Like, some cases, like, people go missing, they die, animals eat them, that's a wrap. That makes sense to me. But there's a few cases. And one of them you covered was a guy, I believe he was from Canada, that went skiing in New York. And he went missing. And then he showed up 2,500 miles later in California with ski clothes on, and he didn't know what happened.

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. That was, uh, he was a fireman from, I think, Toronto, that went with a bunch of friends to New York on, like, a weekend ski trip. And the guys were all getting together at the end of the day to leave, and they couldn't find him. He says he wakes up on a truck, traveling from, like, Reno to Sacramento.

• 6:01Joe Rogan?

  Woke up in the back of a truck?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  No, sitting in the front seat. And he said that he was, as he wakes up, he's talking, it's not like he was asleep and woke up. It's like his mind suddenly flashed open, "Hey, you're alive now, you can keep talking." And he goes, "But I was talking to the driver, and we're traveling." The driver drops him off at Sacramento Airport. He doesn't remember anything, but he remembers his home phone number. Calls his wife in Toronto, and she goes, "Hey, everyone's searching for you, thinking you're still at the ski resort." He has all the ski clothes on.

• 6:38Joe Rogan?

  How many days later?

• 6:39Speaker 02

  I don't remember. But even he doesn't make sense of it. He doesn't know how he got in the truck. The truck driver left. Nobody knows who the truck driver was.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  That was kind of the, the whole story. It wasn't a lie.

• 6:56Joe Rogan?

  So he didn't ask the truck driver, "Hey, where'd you pick me up?"

• 6:59Speaker 02

  I think he was embarrassed.

• 7:02Joe Rogan?

  Just embarrassed that he was in the truck and doesn't remember how he got in there?

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:06Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so he didn't say anything. And did he have any memories from skiing to, like, did he ever do like regressive hypnosis or anything?

• 7:16Speaker 02

  If he did, it never went public.

• 7:19Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Was that the weirdest one?

• 7:22Speaker 02

  I don't know. There's, there's weird ones.

• 7:23Joe Rogan?

  What's the weirdest one you heard of?

• 7:27Speaker 02

  The strangest disappearance story. There's a lot of people that disappear that don't have a memory. And if you look back and you study missing people, those people historically have been abducted. And there's something about that abduction experience where they can take away part of your mind.

• 7:47Joe Rogan?

  You think alien abduction. That's what you're saying?

• 7:49Speaker 02

  Alien entity.

• 7:51Joe Rogan?

  Something.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Some, some type of foreign.

• 7:53Joe Rogan?

  Just want to be clear, we're not talking about like, like, a bad person abducting a person. This episode is brought to you by the Mosquito Bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat, where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights, and starring Nicholas Galitzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis.

• 8:35Joe Rogan?

  The Mosquito Bowl. In theaters October 30th. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Hook up a better speaker to your TV and your home theater experience is immediately 10 times better. Or add a little extra treat to your dog's food. They get so happy at dinnertime. Sometimes it's worth it to go that extra step, to find people who will do that for your business. Check out ZipRecruiter. Try it. For free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter has what you need to find great candidates fast. Like powerful matching technology to help sort through thousands of resumes.

• 9:15Joe Rogan?

  And a feature that puts people who are the most interested and most qualified first. Try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. ZipRecruiter, meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you've thought about trying therapy with our long-term partner, BetterHelp, insurance options may now be available nationwide with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session.

• 9:59Joe Rogan?

  And with World Mental Health Day on the 10th, now's the perfect time to give it a try. In fact, don't even wait until the 10th because all that stress you feel, it's not waiting around. So instead of letting it build up, sign up for a therapy session and unload at any time, not just on World Mental Health Day. If you've been waiting to start therapy, BetterHelp works with more than 125 health plan networks and eligible members have an average copay of just $23 per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better H E L P dot com.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  We're talking about some kind of entity.

• 10:45Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 10:47Speaker 02

  And they take away part of that mind where they were probably doing something to you that they don't want you to know.

• 10:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  And there's a lot of those. There's a whole segment of people that I have chronicled that were truck drivers who have amnesia, who were found in conditions that were very strange. There was a truck driver in the Midwest where salt of the earth kind of guy, drove, drove independently, wife and a couple of kids. He picks up a load. I want to, I want to say it was pigs. And he's, his truck is found like outside of Indiana on a little two-lane highway, stopped on the side of the road.

• 11:32Speaker 02

  He's not anywhere to be found, but his coat is found in a ditch on the other side of the other lane. So the sheriff comes out, they do a huge search, flyovers, canines, goes on for like four or five days, nothing. Week and a half later, his body is found in that field, in the spot where they had searched all that time. Impossible to miss. Coroner says he's been dead for two weeks. The sheriff can't make sense of that, because he searched that with dogs and people, that guy should have been there. But Joe, I have fifteen hundred of those cases where canines were brought in, multiple

• 12:17Speaker 02

  canine teams, multiple searches, and people were not found. And the point I try to make about this is that, it's not that the searchers are inept, because I don't believe that. And I don't believe that the canines fail multiple, multiple times, because I don't believe that can happen. I don't believe they were there when they were searching. They were left there later on.

• 12:40Joe Rogan?

  And so, you've been, you've been into this for a long time, right? What was the first case that you looked into that got you thinking that something weird's going on?

• 12:51Speaker 02

  Probably would have been Yosemite, and there was a girl named Stacy Eris. And she, just weirdly, she grew up like five miles from me. I grew up in a little city, Cupertino, California. She grew up in Saratoga, the next town over. She went with her dad on a trip by horse, sponsored by a contractor in the park at Yosemite, and they were going to ride into this place called the High Sierra Camp. Her and her dad and five other people. And they get- Uh, escorted in by a cowboy contractor. And they come to these cabins. And her dad's an older guy. They get to the cabin.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  And she says, hey dad, I want to go over here to the point. I want to take some pictures. She brings her camera. And one of the guys, a seventy-two-year-old guy is sitting at that point. And she goes, I'm gonna go right there and sit with him and take some pictures. He goes, sure. Dad watches her walk out. They sits down. Old, old guy, barely could ride the horse. She's taking pictures. She gets up and down at the bottom of the hill, there's a small lake. And surrounding the lake, there's trees. She walks down into the trees, presumably to take pictures of the lake, but she doesn't come back. Big search. I'm talking about one of the biggest searches in Yosemite history.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  And they find the lens cap to a camera inside that path in the tree line. They never find her. And that happened forty-six years ago. I filed the Freedom of Information Act for that report and all the investigation into it. And I get denied. I appealed. I got denied. Finally, a special agent from the Park Service, just so people know. The Park Service has uniformed police officers, National Park Service police, that patrol their parks. And they go to the National Law Enforcement Academy.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Up above them, they have special agents, detectives. And they are doing all the follow-up work that the police officers in the field do. This case goes to a special agent. There's been nothing done on this case in forty years. The special agent calls me. Why do you want the case? I said, well, that's an irrelevant question. According to FOIA, you can't ask that. And he goes, well, I want to know. I said, well, it's been forty-seven years. I doubt anyone's looked at it. Have you looked at it? No, nobody's looked at it. I said, well, I'd like a copy of it just to understand what happened. He goes, you're never gonna get the case. This guy's name was Special Agent Yu. Why Yu? I said, why?

• 15:44Speaker 02

  And he says, none of your business. You're never gonna get it. I said, first of all, why talk to me like that? Prior law enforcement, I'm not being rude. I just want to know. He goes, forget it. Drop it. You're never gonna see it. I said, "No, I want that case." And he goes, "You've never seen any other missing person case, and you're not going to see this one." I said, "Whoa. I have over thirty missing person cases from your agency from around the United States that I've FOIA'd before and I've received. You're a liar. You said that to me." I said, "No, I'm not a liar. I don't lie, and this is the truth." And he goes, "Well, you're not getting this one. Anything else you want to know?"

• 16:28Speaker 02

  I said, "No, I think you've done it." And that was it. In that amount of time, I've really found out nothing more about the Stacy Evers case. Fourteen-year-old girl, disappeared, never found. Nobody's ever done anything on the case in forty years. I still haven't seen it. Now, I talked to Tim Burchett, who you had in here the other day. And I explained to him, "I want a meeting with Burgum, and I want to lay out what I have and explain the obstru-"

• 16:57Joe Rogan?

  Who's Burgum?

• 16:58Speaker 02

  The head of the Department of the Interior.

• 17:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Doug Burgum.

• 17:01Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  And explain to him the obstructions that are happening in his agency. Those are our reports. If nobody's looked at it in forty-plus years, what does it matter if I haven't?

• 17:09Joe Rogan?

  Right. The people that were working back then aren't working anymore. It's not like anyone's going to get in trouble.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  No, half of them are dead.

• 17:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  And Tim said, "Okay, how my people get ahold of you?" They got ahold of me. They said that they called DOI. They said that DOI people said, "Yeah, we'll get ahold of you." I called them three times, they won't call me back.

• 17:33Joe Rogan?

  So what do you think's going on?

• 17:37Speaker 02

  So when you look at the totality of-- and let's just talk about Yosemite. As I dug into it, there's probably over fifty people missing in Yosemite as we talk right now. When I asked for a list from Yosemite, from the Department of the Interior twelve years ago, they said they don't have a list. I asked for a list of missing people from the entire system in the Department of Interior. They said, "We don't have a list." And I said, "Well, okay." I've written so many books, I'm a printed author, I'm gonna ask you to put that list together for me. According to the rules, I fit that criteria to ask.

• 18:16Joe Rogan?

  But they said they don't have a list.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Right. But I asked them to put one together.

• 18:19Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  And they said, "We'll get back to you." They said, "No, you don't qualify, but if you want us to put together a list from the entire system, it's gonna cost you 1.4 million dollars. If you want a list from Yosemite, that's gonna cost you 34,000 dollars." So that got me really upset. Over the next two years, I put the list together. Joe, the third year, you know what Yosemite did? They released a list of missing people from Yosemite. So I know I got all the people from Yosemite. I wrote about them in my books. They still haven't released a list from the entire system.

• 18:57Joe Rogan?

  So, do you think they released it because you were pressuring them? No, it's like, you could look at it a bunch of different ways. I'm trying to like, look at it from the skeptic's perspective. You'd say, "Well, this is clear, a bunch of people don't wanna do their job, they're lazy, they don't like this guy coming along and asking for information." But you think there's something weird going on.

• 19:17Speaker 03

  Here's a FOIA I found on their website that was sent to him in 2011. It says that the, uh, "Appeal was properly invoked because of exemptions 7A." And here's, I'll let you read that, what that is.

• 19:35Joe Rogan?

  7A permits the withholding of records or information complied, or compiled, rather, for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings. So, they could withhold it because you could interfere with enforcement proceedings?

• 19:59Speaker 03

  Forty years later. Or thirty, thirty years later, I guess.

• 20:02Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking weird. "The exemption is intended to prevent premature disclosure of the investiga- investigatory materials that might be used in law enforcement action." Forty years later?

• 20:13Speaker 03

  It says, "Incident is still on, in criminal investigations, the incident is still ongoing."

• 20:17Joe Rogan?

  Forty years later? What? Okay. Tinfoil hat firmly placed on your head. What do you think's going on?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  So first of all, missing people investigations are not criminal investigations.

• 20:31Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  There's nothing criminal about disappearing. If it's a criminal investigation and there's criminal aspects to it, it shouldn't be a missing person case. It ought to be suspicious circumstances investigated by a criminal investigator.

• 20:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  It has a classification as a missing person. And what they're not saying there is what about the other 40 cases I've already gotten from them that are since that, that are missing person cases?

• 20:57Joe Rogan?

  Right. So that's a little weird, but I could also see incompetent people that don't want to work. They don't want to do their job and they're like, fuck this guy. I don't want to do his work. I don't want to go, why is he asking me for this information? He's just a kooky author. I could see that. But like, what do you think might be going on with these people?

• 21:19Speaker 02

  So when I was in law enforcement, I worked on the SWAT team and we had canines assigned to our team. Joe, I can't ever remember us looking for someone with a dog and the dog didn't find the person.

• 21:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  I have 1,200 to 1,500 cases where they bring a canine to find a missing person and the dog can't track, won't track, or turns around, comes down and sits down and is not interested in tracking. That's totally outside the behavior of a dog.

• 21:49Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. We've all been there, putting something off because we simply don't want to do it. And then it never gets done. Or you do it poorly. Your enthusiasm or lack thereof shows in your work. Hiring managers know this. It's a big factor they consider. And if you're like them, ZipRecruiter is your greatest ally because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And ZipRecruiter just added a new feature that identifies people who are interested in your role from those who are just meh about it.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  That's in addition to ZipRecruiter's already powerful matching technology. It's an easy way to get matched with top talent, perfect for your role quickly, while also making sure that you're talking to people truly passionate about the work they'll be doing first. Use ZipRecruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now, you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match with ZipRecruiter.

• 22:59Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that what happened to that woman recently that went missing? That was a part of this whole group of scientists that were involved in propulsion research?

• 23:08Speaker 02

  Riza?

• 23:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Same sort of situation, right? She was with her friend. They were hiking. They had just talked. The friend was ahead of her. And the friend turned around to ask her a question. She was gone. They do an investigation. They bring in dogs. Can't find anything. The lady's just gone.

• 23:28Speaker 02

  Hundred percent. You're a hundred percent right. It doesn't make any sense. And it does, it fit that 411 criteria that I laid down, which is why I did a video about it. Her disappearance doesn't make sense.

• 23:46Joe Rogan?

  So, do you have suspicions? Like, do you think something supernatural is going on? Do you think something extraterrestrial or interdimensional? Like, what do you think is involved in these people going missing?

• 24:04Speaker 02

  First of all, I don't know.

• 24:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 24:06Speaker 02

  In my books, I've laid out facts and I let the viewer decide. But one thing I did find, because I've written about a lot of hunters that have disappeared. And let's say you and I go out and we're gonna go pig hunting at your friend's farm down the way. And you say, "Hey, Dave, you go that way, and I'll go that way, and I'll meet you in an hour." Okay. So in my world, I call that point of separation. Every time on a missing hunter case, it's at that point of separation that something happens. It never happens when they're together. It always happens when people are alone. That's point number one. Number two is the canine issue. Canines' failure to pick up a scent?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  They bring in professional trackers and they can't find tracks? That's not normal. A lot of times, say in Alaska, they have some great native trackers up there. And they can't find people in every other time they can. So it's like if you're going from A to B, you're gonna leave a scent and you're gonna leave a track.

• 25:10Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Well, they can't find that. And that's not normal. So in my, I made a movie called Missing 411: The Hunted. And in that movie, there was a case of 12, 12 guys are planting trees on the side of a mountain in Washington State. And there's a herd of elk at the bottom of the mountain. And all of these guys see this classic UFO come up the mountain, hover over one elk. The herd scatters, but one elk doesn't. It just stands there. And then without anything between the UFO and the elk, it picks the elk up and it's gone. The guys all say, F this, I'm outta here. The whole group of planters leave.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  And the manager for the company says, whoa, guys, hold on, what's going on? So they call MUFON out, Mutual UFO Network. They bring some investigators out and they interview these guys one by one. And they all say the same thing. And they say, what we're afraid of is we're next. They just took that elk, but we're next. So that's in the movie. Keep that in your back of your mind. There's a guy named Carl in Wyoming. He's hunting in the Medicine Bow National Forest, alone. See some elk 100 yards away, lines up with his rifle, boom. And he says, David, it's like everything went into slow motion.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  I see the bullet come out the gun about three or four feet and it drops to the ground.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Says, "I walked over," and he goes, "The elk didn't move," and I pick it up, the bullet. I put the bullet in my pocket, and then two alien-type entities walk up to me. And they engage him in mind-speak. And they, what they do is they eventually take him on a craft, and they take the elk on the craft. And it's like the elk are frozen there in time. And they have him march behind a screen. And they said, "We don't want you. You're going back, mind to mind." And he goes, "What's going on?" He goes, "You're going back." He says, "The next thing I remember is falling 10 to 15 feet," he's guessing.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  He hits his shoulder, probably displaces it, and he rolls down a hill. They're already searching for him because he's missing, his wife, the sheriff. And they take him back, and they take him to a hospital. And they're taking x-rays. And he had tuberculosis scars as a kid. Those are no longer there. And he had other medical issues that are completely cured. The investigators came out, and they, the Wyoming Department of Law Enforcement, looked at that bullet and did an exam on it. And they could not figure out what that bullet hit to make it deform in the manner that it did. I have pictures of it in the movie. It's very odd.

• 28:13Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find the pictures online?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  I'm looking, I'm looking.

• 28:16Joe Rogan?

  Of course you are.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  If you go to Tubi, T-U-B-I, Missing 411, The Hunted, the movie's there for free. You guys could watch it.

• 28:24Joe Rogan?

  Also, check out Gearhead's Gone Wild. It's my friend's show.

• 28:28Speaker 02

  Okay, so, no tuberculosis scars, the bullet. So I'm talking to Carl, and I said, "Well, why do you think they sent you back?" And he says, "Well, I think it's because I had a vasectomy." I said, "Oh, did they say anything to you about that?" "No." "Okay." So he was 91 years old when I interviewed him, sharp as a tack.

• 28:50Joe Rogan?

  How old was he when this encounter happened?

• 28:52Speaker 02

  I think he was 38, 39. And, again, this happened in the Medicine Bow National Forest.

• 29:01Joe Rogan?

  Where is that?

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Medicine Bow is directly, I'd say about 75 miles northwest of Cheyenne.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  So at about the same time, the Air Force Base in Cheyenne is having a group of cluster UFO sightings above the ICBM sites. And that was never made public at this time. It was thirty, forty, fifty years later, through Robert Hastings and other Air Force personnel came out, that these documents started to show up. So Carl would have never known what was happening at the same time these things in Cheyenne were happening. And then you think about what's going on in Wyoming that would cause this. But really, the epiphany to me with Carl is there's a lot of people in the woods that

• 29:55Speaker 02

  are found, quote unquote, "they fell." They always fall alone, and they always fall in places where if you and I are in the woods, we're going to be pretty careful when we're alone. We're not going to be walking off a cliff. We're going to be careful. A lot of these people are found in very unusual circumstances, dead at the bottom of an area that you just don't think makes sense. And they couldn't be tracked. So with Carl, when you think about him being taken, a hunter, hunting elk, nobody gets seen, nothing's heard. So I did a circumference around the area where he went. And it's in the movie.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  There's a group of the German hunters. Carl was German. German hunters that have disappeared. Nobody else but German that have disappeared in that area. And then, when you look at the scope of what I've done in my work, I went backwards and I found there's a lot of German people that have been abducted. More than the normal population of people. And these German hunters really were the opening valve to me that something odd was happening with German.

• 31:12Joe Rogan?

  What do you think that is? Why German?

• 31:15Speaker 02

  I really wish I knew. That's probably outside my pay grade. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of rumors about the Germans having associations with aliens.

• 31:26Joe Rogan?

  During the Nazi times?

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:27Joe Rogan?

  Right. Well, there's a lot of weird occult stuff going on with the Nazis, right? And they were making like what looked like a UFO. They were constructing these things that looked like flying saucers.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:42Joe Rogan?

  Um, you know the Travis Walton case?

• 31:45Speaker 02

  Oh, very well.

• 31:46Joe Rogan?

  This is, I have his bobblehead. He came in here. Um, that's another guy that went missing in the woods and it's a similar story. You know, he was taken aboard some sort of a craft, uh, multiple witnesses, including people who hated him. One guy who he actually got in a fistfight with earlier that day. And they all told the same story. They all passed polygraph tests. He shows up days later. Um, with this crazy story that he had been hit by a beam of light. They took him aboard this craft, fixed him, fixed whatever happened to him. And communicated with him and then dropped him back off.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  I know Travis well. In fact, I was doing a conference in Phoenix and he brought his son to the conference because his son wanted to meet me. Because a lot of my work focused around things that happened to Travis.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  And I, I think Travis's case is probably not unique and there's probably thousands of people out there. They just don't want to talk about it. They just want it to go away.

• 32:51Joe Rogan?

  Cause it's too weird and because you feel like a fool.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, that and I think maybe they're afraid that they're going to get pigeonholed as what you just said, odd, strange.

• 33:00Joe Rogan?

  You're a crazy person.

• 33:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Yeah, the Travis case is very interesting because I, I mean, this is just.

• 33:10Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I'm just saying this, but most people who lie, they lie about a lot of stuff. They don't just have one crazy lie from the 1970s that they keep repeating exactly the same way. And have witnesses. You know, that's, the whole thing is very strange. Also, the fact that he went missing in the woods. And then showed up multiple days later. There's nothing wrong with him. He's not dehydrated. He's not starving to death. He's fine. He's just weirded out and he has this crazy story. And it's not like his story is unique either. That's what's very strange. The people that have been abducted, they all have very similar stories.

• 33:50Joe Rogan?

  They have similar stories about medical examinations, being taken aboard a craft, things communicating with them telepathically.

• 33:59Joe Rogan?

  You know, um, there's, there's no like delusions of grandeur, like you have, you're the chosen one, you're unique, you're Neo. You're the one we wanted. We came here for you. There's not, nothing kooky like that. It's all just, they wanna know what's going on with the human species. And they find a specimen, they do an examination, and it sounds completely insane. But we do that. We do that with species. We do that with other things. We do that with primates. We do that with all kinds of different animals that we research. I mean, people, there's probably someone doing it right now in the Congo, probably looking for some animals, you know, tranquilizing,

• 34:43Joe Rogan?

  some animal, doing studies on it, releasing it back into the wild. We do it all the time.

• 34:50Joe Rogan?

  One of the things I say at conferences is, what if we're the ant farm? Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  That took a while to find.

• 34:56Joe Rogan?

  So this is the bullet.

• 34:59Joe Rogan?

  So this is, um, thank you, Jamie. This is the bullet that this guy shot and it hit something right in front of him and just completely deformed. That bullet looks like it hit a wall, like it hit like something like a giant plate of steel or something. I mean, it's just completely flattened. That's not like a bullet that hits an animal. You know, bullets that hit, well, could hit bones and stuff and get distorted, but it wouldn't be intact like that. That looks like an intact bullet that just flattened out, hitting something completely immovable.

• 35:35Joe Rogan?

  Very weird.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  One of the things that Carl said, that they told him is, when he got on that craft, is he said, "Hey, you have my elk." And they said, yes, Carl, they said that "we often come down to your earth and we take animals and we study them. And you happen to be one of the people that was right there when we were taking that, so we took you too." And I've heard this before from other abductees, that, just like you said, we look at and test animals. Apparently, they're monitoring the health of our planet by testing animals themselves.

• 36:15Joe Rogan?

  So, he said they communicated with him telepathically?

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:22Joe Rogan?

  What did he say they talked to him about?

• 36:24Speaker 02

  So, the elk.

• 36:27Joe Rogan?

  Why are they interested in elk?

• 36:30Speaker 02

  That's a good question.

• 36:31Joe Rogan?

  Because they're cool?

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Elk are very cool.

• 36:35Joe Rogan?

  Pretty cool.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Yes, they are. Now, that's an interesting point, because there are more hunters that are abducted or that disappear hunting elk than any other animal. And it's not that there's more hunters hunting elk, there's more hunters hunting deer on the whole in the United States, but for some reason, there's more hunters that disappear hunting elk. And I've said this in my books before.

• 37:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, as a hunter, one thing that I would say is that when you're hunting elk, you're in the backcountry, for the most part. You're in wild, remote areas with mountains. You're in a place with very few people, it's very hard to get to them. Whereas deer hunting, a lot of it is done on farms, a lot of it is done on flatland, you know, a lot of tree stand hunting. Deer, whitetail deer specifically in America, North America, are the most hunted animal. But if you've ever gone whitetail hunting, a lot of it is in and around farmland, and you've never, very rarely at least, you're hunting whitetail deer in the mountains, remote mountain ranges.

• 37:45Joe Rogan?

  Mule deer, you hunt mule deer in remote mountain ranges, but whitetail deer, they tend to populate around humans and around agriculture.

• 37:56Joe Rogan?

  So that kind of makes sense. If they want to be stealthy, if they're trying to not be detected by as many people, you would, you'd probably, also, you probably, if you were going to abduct someone and be reasonably sure that no one was going to see you do it, you would probably go where there's very few people and just some random guy who's decided to hike up to 10,000 feet and chase a herd of elk. This episode is brought to you by NOCO. You're miles from home, you turn the key, nothing, dead battery. Normally, that means finding another car, someone willing to give you a jump, and dealing with old jumper cables. But what if you didn't need any of that?

• 38:41Joe Rogan?

  Keep a NOCO portable jump starter in your glove box and jump start your car yourself. No cables, no second vehicle, no waiting for help. It also works as a power bank and has a built-in LED flashlight. NOCO, the end of jumper cables. Use code ROGEN10 for 10% off select jump starters at NO.co. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to. In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks.

• 39:25Joe Rogan?

  That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5% cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to chime.com/rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank, banking services and Chime card, provided by Chime's bank partners. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for more details.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  Another thing I've heard from Carl is that he was told that these entities, whoever they are, have the ability to freeze time and space. And remember when I said elk, the elk he was looking at, he said he shot and they didn't move. It's like they were frozen. And they were frozen in that same position when he got on the craft. Time and space being that everything around him, nobody could walk in, nobody could walk out. It's like the time and space that he and the entity and the elk were in were frozen. It's a hard thing to grasp, but I've heard this before.

• 40:46Joe Rogan?

  It is a hard thing to grasp, but the people that speculate on how these advanced species, whatever they are, they're able to travel, that there's some sort of manipulation of spacetime, that it's not as simple as like what we do, which is very crude. We do propulsion. We burn things and push stuff out the back and it makes stuff go forward. Or we have an internal combustion engine that does the same thing. It makes explosions inside the engine, burns things, pushes the pistons around, forces the transmission, and it moves. What these things supposedly do, and again, this is all just crazy talk, but what they're

• 41:27Joe Rogan?

  able to do is manipulate spacetime itself and instantaneously travel from one place to the next because they have a control over the universe in a way that with us, it's like completely theoretical. Like there's this woman that speculates that in the future someday, you know, with many, many, many advancements and who knows how many years of, we will be able to travel quantumly. Like the way quantum particles are entangled, she believes that perhaps the entire universe works that way and that everything is connected and that this...

• 42:05Joe Rogan?

  Thing that we have this idea that the distance between stars is far too vast for a human to travel because you can't travel past the speed of light. And if you did travel past the speed of light, it would still take, you know, even if you went like two times the speed of light, three times the speed of light, it would still take thousands and thousands of years to just get to the closest planets outside of our solar system. And she thinks that one day, perhaps, if not humans or whatever's coming after humans, we'll be able to quantumly travel. And you would imagine that would involve some sort of manipulation of space and time that we can't quite understand.

• 42:48Joe Rogan?

  That we're just, we're just, we're talking about it like it's magic. But again, if you were talking to someone from the 1400s about a cellphone, hey, I can FaceTime my friend in Australia, they'd go, what the fuck are you talking about? Well, I pick out this device in my pocket that's as thin as a few slices of paper. And through that, I can, I can like stare at my friend and he can see me and I can see him. Like, that's magic. You're talking crazy talk. There's nothing, there's no cord, there's no nothing. Somehow or another, there's like, what are you sending that's being received and it comes into HD video with sound? And it, it perfectly lines up with the way the person's talking, you hear it in real

• 43:33Joe Rogan?

  time? That's crazy. That doesn't even make sense. But yet, we just are so accustomed to it that it's normal. Oh, I'm getting a FaceTime call from my friend. Oh, hey, what's up, buddy? You know, we think it's normal. And then you gotta imagine, if you could just push into the future and imagine thousands of years of innovation in technology, like what, what does that look like? You know, communication used to be, you had to shout, you know, Bob's over there a hundred yards away, you had to put your hands, we're going to the left, you know? Now, you could just text him or you could call him. And that the ability to communicate at vast distances will one day be very similar to the way we travel.

• 44:17Joe Rogan?

  We can travel vast distances instantaneously.

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Part of the entanglement idea that you talked about, what if you're in Austin and I go back to Whitefish, Montana? And what if we had the ability to think, hey, Joe, I forgot to tell you this when I was on your show and I told you by my mind? Now, people would say, oh, that's stupid, that's ridiculous. But I've talked to people that are way smarter than me that say that part of this entanglement is, is that what if you're in space and you're on the far side of the moon? And what if we all have that ability right now to affect others in other places and our thinking and our mind is really more powerful and we are this spider web of entanglement that we don't quite understand right now?

• 45:06Speaker 02

  And let me, where this came from is George Knapp, been on this show like 30 times. He had a guy named Colin Kelleher, who was the head of all investigations for Bigelow at Skinwalker Ranch. And George said, hey, Dave, Kelleher wants you to come out to Las Vegas. He thinks some of the work that they're doing at the ranch right now overlaps with your work on missing people. So I came out to Las Vegas three or four times, met with Kelleher, and we talked about just what you're talking about right now, this overlapping of understanding consciousness. Because it's much more complex than some people are willing or even for us to understand.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  But what if what's happening on Earth right now, whether it's abductions, cattle mutilations, UFOs, is really something that is so beyond us? We try to think in rational terms, well, they're taking us for our sperm or they're taking us for our eggs. What if it's something a lot, lot more deep than really we could comprehend right now?

• 46:11Joe Rogan?

  Like what?

• 46:13Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'm asking you, Joe.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  But his point being that all the time, they spent almost 20 years at that ranch, investigating things. And he tells me about this one incident. And he says, I've got a physicist up on the hill with another researcher. It's 2 o'clock in the morning. They're looking down at the meadow, and they see this bright light. And this bright light starts to get bigger. If you tell your guy, he could pick it up right now on, if you go to Amazon, to the movie, American Sasquatch, Man, Myth or Legend, it's my movie, we have it there. And it starts getting bigger. And one guy doesn't have night vision, the other guy does. And this round thing keeps

• 47:03Speaker 02

  getting bigger and bigger, till eventually, it's like you're looking down a tube. And he says, it's almost three dimensional, because you could see something at the far end of the tube. And the physicist's just handing the night vision back, and they're sharing it. Eventually, the tube gets to be about this big, that something twice the size of you and I could crawl through. All of a sudden, they see something crawling down the tube.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  It crawls out, it jumps down onto the land. And they see, it's so dark, even with night vision, that they could just see a silhouette, and it's bipedal, seven or eight feet tall, all black in color.

• 47:50Joe Rogan?

  Is this it?

• 47:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 47:57Joe Rogan?

  Is that the documentary you're talking about?

• 47:59Speaker 02

  No, it's not mine.

• 48:01Joe Rogan?

  Something different?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:03Joe Rogan?

  Sasquatch?

• 48:03Speaker 03

  American Sasquatch?

• 48:04Joe Rogan?

  Man, Myth or Monster?

• 48:06Speaker 03

  Isn't that what you said?

• 48:07Joe Rogan?

  Is that it?

• 48:07Speaker 02

  That's it, yeah.

• 48:10Joe Rogan?

  So this is your film?

• 48:11Speaker 02

  That is the film, but that's not what I'm talking about.

• 48:13Joe Rogan?

  Where is it in the film? Do you remember?

• 48:16Speaker 02

  It's near the, near the end, like, three quarters of the way through it. It's with my interview with Kellner, and he's talking about it, and... And this thing, and then it walks away on, on two feet. And when we talk about this, he said, "It doesn't make any sense to us." You know, "Did we just see a portal open up? And an entity from another dimension crawl through into our dimension? And is that the access point that they're using? And can they open this at certain times and close it at certain times at will?" And really, that was the first time that I had heard this from someone credible, that this can happen.

• 48:58Speaker 02

  And if you think about the people at the ranch today, they said, "Well, the amount of energy it takes to open a portal is so many times greater than an atom bomb, that it doesn't make sense that that could be the answer to this." Well, maybe their answer to what a portal is, is different. But what these guys saw doesn't make a lot of sense to us.

• 49:19Joe Rogan?

  Well, the whole Bigfoot thing doesn't make a lot of sense. One of the reasons why the Bigfoot thing doesn't make a lot of sense is that Native Americans don't have a lot of mythological creatures. It's not like they have a ton of dragons, and demons, and pixies, and wood sprites. There's not, but there's over a hun- isn't, didn't we look this up? The, the, the name for Sasquatch?

• 49:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a bunch.

• 49:46Joe Rogan?

  There's like fifty different names that they have for this one thing, that they universally described as a bipedal, hairy, ape-like creature that's eight to ten feet tall. And there's so many sightings of this one thing. It's not like people keep talking about different animals. Like, "I saw an elephant that has six legs." No, it's always bipedal hominids.

• 50:17Joe Rogan?

  It's weird. It's a weird story, cause like, I've never seen compelling Bigfoot footage. It all looks bullshit. The Patterson footage, I think, is nonsense. I think it's a guy in a monkey suit, for sure. I think, uh, most of what you see in terms of like photographic evidence is nonsense. But, there's too many stories. There's too many stories for me to completely dismiss it. And, I've always wondered, if it's some sort of an interdimensional experience. And that this thing, maybe, the fact that it's in the woods, and that they happen under heightened awareness,

• 51:02Joe Rogan?

  because you're in the woods, and you're probably very nervous and freaked out, so you're probably in a very bizarre state of mind. And, all of a sudden, you encounter something that makes zero sense. And, the same thing, gets encountered by people over and over again. And you could write that off, now if you're a cynical person, or a rational person, which I'm neither one of those. You, you could, you could write it off, and you could say, "Well, there's an archetype. People have talked about this creature, you know, for so long, that that's what you expect to see, so that's what you make yourself see." You know, maybe. Maybe. Maybe it's a bear, that walks on two legs, because we know they do that. Particularly black bears, they walk on two legs all the time. I've seen them walk on two legs, it's very weird.

• 51:48Joe Rogan?

  But, they don't describe it like a bear. They describe it like an ape. They, they, they say it has long arms, like an ape. And that it looks at you. And that, these things, exist i- in the forest, like, deep in the forest where there's no people. And then when people go out there, they encounter them. And the story is just, it's like the UFO abduction story. It's so similar. It's so similar, over and over again, like a very similar story. And you've always gotta separate the kooky stories, because there's always a bunch of crazy people that make things up. There's a bunch of people that are probably on psychiatric drugs, or they're tripping balls on mushrooms, or whatever it is.

• 52:31Joe Rogan?

  There's a bunch of people that see things that maybe aren't there at all. But then, there's enough of these stories where you gotta go, man, if just one of these is true, one out of a hundred, and then there's thousands of them. Like, how, what is going on?

• 52:47Speaker 02

  On an ape. It's not a gorilla. If it was, we'd have it in the zoo. And we don't. The, it walks like a man. Ape and gorillas don't walk like a man.

• 52:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, Gigantopithecus did, right?

• 53:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 53:02Joe Rogan?

  It didn't?

• 53:03Speaker 02

  There's no evidence it was bipedal at all.

• 53:05Joe Rogan?

  I thought it was the jaw structure.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  So, they have one piece of jaw and a bunch of teeth, and there's a lot of theories behind that, but there's no evidence it was bipedal.

• 53:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 53:16Speaker 02

  That's number one. Number two, there's no evidence it's ever been in North America.

• 53:20Joe Rogan?

  Right, but the sightings that they find of this thing are in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest primarily. This is where you get a lot of them. And the idea would be that when the Bering Land Bridge was around, before the Ice Age, or during the Ice Age, when the ocean levels were much lower and there was more land exposed, that these things could walk across Asia, like we know the short-faced bear did, and we also know people made it from Siberia into North America.

• 53:52Speaker 02

  So, let's just, let's just take Gigantopithecus. That wouldn't be some, an environment it could live in, though?

• 54:01Joe Rogan?

  That was a jungle animal.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:04Joe Rogan?

  Right, in Asia.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Correct. So, let's getting back to that.

• 54:08Joe Rogan?

  But before you go on, there's also Gigantopithecus, they found less than a hundred years ago. So, these, I believe there were anthropologists and they were searching for different bones in an apothecary shop in China, and they found a molar that was extraordinarily large, like way too large, and it was a primate molar. And they were like, what is this? And so, they took them to where they found it, and then as they started digging, they found some more bones and some different things. I don't know, how much stuff have they found of Gigantopithecus?

• 54:43Speaker 03

  Only jaws and teeth.

• 54:44Joe Rogan?

  That's it?

• 54:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, it says, yeah, this says it was...

• 54:47Joe Rogan?

  Now, imagine if they never found that. Here's the question. If they never found any of that stuff, show me what they got?

• 54:53Speaker 03

  It doesn't say what, I mean, it says what they have here.

• 54:55Joe Rogan?

  Okay, we only have jaws and teeth for Gigantopithecus, not pelvis, leg bones, or full skeleton, so it's exact gait can't be observed directly. Researchers infer its posture and locomotion by comparing its anatomy and evolutionary relationships with living great apes, especially orangutans, which are all quadrupedal and not habitual bipeds. So, why do they think it's, okay, no Gigantopithecus is not thought to have been bipedal. Scientific consensus is that was a large, mostly quadrupedal ape. So, why does some people say it's bipedal? Where the idea came from? Okay, a minority of researchers and many Bigfoot enthusiasts have proposed a bipedal Gigantopithecus, often linking it to Sasquatch, but those arguments rely on speculative interpretations

• 55:40Joe Rogan?

  of jaw shape rather than solid postcranial fossils. These bipedal reconstructions are generally rejected by specialists in fossil apes who regard them as highly unlikely, given current evidence. So, perplexity, our AI sponsor says, no. Says Bigfoot something different. So, but the thing is, if Gigantopithecus was a real thing, and all we have is these, a tiny amount of fossilized bones and teeth.

• 56:13Joe Rogan?

  How many things make fossils? Very few, very few. So there very well could have been a bipedal ape like a human that was much larger. I mean, we know at one point in time bipedal hominids like, you know, the early versions of human beings were very hairy and some of them were larger than us. We just don't have fossils because most things don't leave fossils. Like the fossil record is incredibly incomplete, right?

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, in East Texas, there's a lot of Bigfoot sightings.

• 56:46Joe Rogan?

  Really? East Texas?

• 56:48Speaker 02

  East Texas.

• 56:49Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by Visible. Ah, spring is in the air, which means time for some spring cleaning. We're cleaning out the garage and finally tossing those mystery cords. But while you're cleaning out your junk drawer, take a look at your wireless bill. Don't fall for wireless traps. Tact on fees, confusing bills and empty promises. Join Visible and cut out the nonsense. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G data and hotspot on Verizon's network for one flat cost. Just $25 a month, taxes and fees included. It's everything you need and nothing you don't.

• 57:32Joe Rogan?

  Plus, for a limited time, new members can get the Visible plan for just $20 a month for one year using code FRESHSTART. Refresh your wireless with Visible. Head to visible.com to get started. Terms apply. Limited time offer, subject to change. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. What kind of terrain?

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Uh, mushy, swampy.

• 58:04Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Uh, wet, yeah, right on the border, East Texas, Tennessee.

• 58:11Joe Rogan?

  The border of what, Oklahoma?

• 58:13Speaker 02

  Uh, no, down near the ocean.

• 58:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  So, when we talked about, you, you were talking about Alaska, Pacific Northwest, a lot of Bigfoot sightings.

• 58:25Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  A lot of Bigfoot sightings in Tennessee, too, Kentucky, and...

• 58:30Joe Rogan?

  A lot of moonshine in Kentucky, Tennessee, too.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 58:33Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people smoking crank.

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Yes. So, after I was a policeman, I had a master's degree, I worked, uh, technology for a while. I had a master's in HR, and I ran HR organizations. Did that for five, six, seven years. I said I had enough and I'm leaving. I had young kids, I was gonna leave with my family and have fun. Two founders of this company, super rich, come to me and they say, "Hey, Dave, we got a job for you.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  At your own pace, at your own will, here's the story." When they were younger, they didn't know each other, they grew up in different parts. They went up into the woods with their families, backpacking, camping, having fun. They get up in the middle of the night, take a leak, and independently, didn't know each other, they saw Bigfoot. They found each other, they formed this company, made millions of dollars. One day they're at lunch, and they start talking to each other, and they had the same experience. They said, "Wow, that's, that's freaking bizarre. So, let's get to the bottom of it."

• 59:39Speaker 02

  So, I'm leaving, they know I have an investigative background, they said, "Hey, we're gonna hire you. We want you to go find out if it's true, false, or a hoax."

• 59:47Joe Rogan?

  They hired you to go check to see if Bigfoot was real?

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Flipped the whole bill. They said, "You can do it at your own pace, own will, we'll pay for everything." I said, "Not interested." They came back to me like four or five times, finally at the end of a year. My wife is divorcing me, I now have only 50% custody. I have 50% of my life open to do whatever I want. They came at me again, I said, "Okay." They're, uh, uh, I'm gonna shorten it down to, from what took five years to five minutes.

• 1:00:18Speaker 02

  Tennessee, Great Smoky Mountain National Park. There was a man there named Scott Carpenter. Scott, rest his soul, has since died. But he took me into an area in the park. And he said, Dave, this is the part where I've had all kinds of evidence.

• 1:00:37Joe Rogan?

  What kind of evidence?

• 1:00:39Speaker 02

  Footprints, hair.

• 1:00:42Joe Rogan?

  Hair?

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Hair.

• 1:00:44Joe Rogan?

  So has he ever had the hair analyzed?

• 1:00:46Speaker 02

  Okay. So we start talking about it. How can we get a good sample of hair? So I said, you know, with bear, they take bear samples and DNA samples from bear all the time. Let's try this. Let's take some packaging tape, wrap it inside out on the outside of a tree. Put something at the fork of the tree, some kind of food, whatever, honey, something. If they lean up against the tree, it's going to pull the hair out, which we need the follicle for the DNA. Let's see if that works. She says, Brian, we did it. It worked. In that area, we had tracks. Now, just so you know and everyone else knows, there's hair and fiber experts in the world.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  And they testify in Superior Court all the time. Like out in the lobby, you have all these different kinds of animals. If we took a hair from one animal and gave it to a hair and fiber expert, he could tell you within two minutes what animal that came from. Because every hair looks different. So we took those hairs, went to a hair and fiber expert, and they said, well, where'd you get that? And I go, what do you mean? We've never seen that hair before. It's not classified. It doesn't exist. Hmm, okay. So that means we're on to something. So then I took-

• 1:02:03Joe Rogan?

  Does it have follicle? Can they do DNA on it, or is it just hair?

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  They did.

• 1:02:07Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:02:08Speaker 02

  They did. So I called the, I was living in California at the time. I called the University of California, Davis, the biggest animal lab in the world. And they said, what do you got? And I explained, they said, Bigfoot, we're not touching it. We don't want anything to do with it. I went to University of Texas, UC Davis, I went to like six or seven. No one would touch it. But then I found a woman that testified in the courts here in Texas as a DNA expert. I called her up. Her name is Melba Ketchum. "Dr. Ketchum, I have this sample here. Would you be willing to do DNA analysis on it?" "Absolutely. It's going to cost you so many thousands of dollars." I go, "No problem. We've got somebody who's going to pay." So she goes, "Okay. Let's do one better.

• 1:02:53Speaker 02

  Dave, send me the sample. Let me look at it first. I'm going to give it to my hair and fiber expert." They look at it. Fiber, hair and fiber expert says, "It's nothing we've ever seen, so that's good." So she goes, "Okay, here's, here's what we're going to do. Can you get any more samples?" I said, "I have an idea. Let me try." So I go on coast to coast. And I, I laid it out. I said, "Hey, we have these samples. We're looking for hair samples. Don't, don't bullshit us because we'll know right away. Send us hair samples with, with everything attached and we're going to send it to a lab. You don't have to pay the bill.

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  We got 125 valid samples that were not deer, antelope, bear, whatever." She goes through the DNA analysis on it. Cost, I think it cost us $400,000 at the end of the day. It's a lot less expensive now. And they all, so hair will, will give you mitochondrial DNA from the maternal side, but it won't give you fraternal DNA from the father's side. That you need nuclear DNA, blood, tissue, saliva. And we got some of those. Son of a gun.

• 1:04:12Speaker 02

  At the end of the day, the DNA comes back 12,000 to 15,000 years to the Middle East on the mother's side. Father's side, it doesn't exist in GenBank. 352 billion base pairs of DNA does not exist. The father's DNA does not exist. GenBank says it's impossible. Since that time, other people have come forward and said, hey, you know, on elongated skulls, we've had the same problem. We can't find the fraternal DNA just like you. That's a guy named L.A. Marzulli that was doing the research there.

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  And then Ron Moorhead, who's doing other DNA studies on elongated skulls in South America, said the same thing. That's odd, Dave. So the maternal, we understand. The fraternal, we don't. And the DNA, they did a paper about it. It's online. Haven't a lot of people say, oh, you know what? It's BS. It's bad. But nobody else has ever done a test. And I could get you more hair within two weeks if we wanted to. Nobody wants to test it. I'll test it. What do we have to do? The truth is, the truth is, the truth is.

• 1:05:36Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, you ready to go? Let's go. Let's get some tape. The truth is.

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  It'll all come back the same. And I believe that the researchers who have done it, they've gotten the same results.

• 1:05:48Joe Rogan?

  And so if you say that on the fraternal side, it doesn't exist, on the maternal side, it's showing thousands, explain that again?

• 1:05:57Speaker 02

  So like I'm Greek. So they could, they could chase my DNA backwards through time to, I don't know, Greece.

• 1:06:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:06:06Speaker 02

  10,000, 15,000 years ago. Well, they were able to chase the maternal side back to the Middle East 12,000 to 15,000 years.

• 1:06:13Joe Rogan?

  And what did they say it was?

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  That's all they said. But what they're saying is, is that, and a lot of people have picked up on this, that has a lot of religious connotations to it.

• 1:06:23Joe Rogan?

  Why does it have religious connotations to it?

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  Because of the Middle East 12,000 to 15,000 years.

• 1:06:34Joe Rogan?

  Right, but why is that religious? It's a part of the world, 12,000 to 15,000 years ago. What gives it religious connotations? Other than the fact that that's the origins of a lot of religions?

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Right, but it's also humans and different animals lived there. Like, there's probably deer down there that weren't religious at all. You know, their DNA tracks back to that, too. Specific results, she reported. She claimed 111 samples from 34 North American sites produced two patterns: human MT DNA and unusual or novel nuclear sequences that supposedly did not match known animals. Her interpretation was that about 15,000 years ago, an unknown hominin male population interbred with modern human females, leading to a hybrid lineage whose descendants are today's supposed Sasquatch. How and where it was published? Study did not appear in a normal, established, peer-reviewed journal.

• 1:07:30Joe Rogan?

  Instead, it was put into an obscure outlet called de novo scientific journal, which Ketchum herself effectively controlled to get the paper online. Science reporters and skeptics noted the absence of transparent peer review, the paywall for self-published paper, and the lack of independent labs reproducing her findings. But did independent labs try to reproduce her findings? That's the question. Scientific criticism: Genetics, geneticists and forensic biologists who examined the data and methodology have repeatedly pointed to contamination and poor lab practice as the most likely explanation for her hybrid sequences. Analysis noted that the MT DNA being 100% modern human

• 1:08:15Joe Rogan?

  is exactly what you would expect from contaminated or human-origin samples, and that the odd nuclear sequences are consistent with mixed DNA, sequencing errors, or low-quality data, not a new species. Current status of her DNA claims: No major genetics lab or independent research group has replicated Ketchum's results or confirmed a novel hominin genome corresponding to Bigfoot. In mainstream science, her study is treated as an example of flawed junk science, interesting to Bigfoot enthusiasts, but offering no accepted evidence that Sasquatch exists. But here's the thing: Did anybody else try to test those things?

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  No. And let me explain, that argument they just used,

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  they're talking to a bunch of idiots. So when they say it's contaminated.

• 1:09:09Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  So let's say I contaminated the sample.

• 1:09:12Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  Well, Joe, my dad was Russian. The contaminated sample would show on the fraternal side Russian.

• 1:09:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  It wouldn't show nothing.

• 1:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:09:24Speaker 02

  That's why that argument makes no sense.

• 1:09:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, I'm not a geneticist, so I don't know if it makes sense.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:29Joe Rogan?

  You know what I'm saying? Like if you could say, oh, this is why. You know, if you had someone who understood DNA and contamination and the whole process, they could maybe explain it in a better way. So what, the idea that humans interbred with things is not a new idea. You know, I read something recently. I actually watched a YouTube video and then read an article. I think we talked about this, pretty sure we did. Where they believe that Neanderthal, they used to think that Neanderthal was a subspecies, like a different version of humans and that they interbred with us. There's a group of people that now are speculating that Neanderthal was the result

• 1:10:13Joe Rogan?

  of humans breeding with another ancient hominid. And that that created Neanderthal. So it's not that we interbred with Neanderthal, but that humans actually created Neanderthal by breeding with this other hominid.

• 1:10:32Speaker 02

  So there's only one country in the world that ever took this topic seriously.

• 1:10:37Joe Rogan?

  Which country?

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  Russia. They took their science academy and took the five top scientists. This happened 40 years ago. And they started studying what was called Almastie, same as our Bigfoot.

• 1:10:50Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:10:51Speaker 02

  And I'm not bullshitting you. This is 100% true. Two of their scientists came to the US. I met one of them at a conference in Colorado seven or eight years ago. And I walk into the room and he's holding both of my books as I walk in. And he says, Dave, you're the only guy to tell the truth out of everybody out here. What you're saying about the DNA, what you're saying about the lineage is 100% fact. It's what we found. And we know that they aren't any kind of ape or gorilla. It's, it's a human hybrid.

• 1:11:30Speaker 02

  That people don't understand.

• 1:11:32Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. So, do the Russians think that it exists currently?

• 1:11:36Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:11:37Joe Rogan?

  So, how are they hiding?

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  How are they hiding?

• 1:11:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  So, if you think about, we don't even have the ability to do something with a DNA like they, like whatever this is.

• 1:11:49Joe Rogan?

  You mean making a hybrid?

• 1:11:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:51Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:11:51Speaker 02

  So, something far greater than us has learned to manipulate DNA. And if you think that Bigfoot is interdimensional, then wherever that came from,

• 1:12:07Speaker 02

  probably makes a whole lot more sense scientifically than something organically made here.

• 1:12:15Speaker 02

  And therein lies the reason that we haven't found a body.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  It can move in and out like it did through that tube at Skinwalker Ranch.

• 1:12:26Speaker 02

  And there's footage in our movie of what appears to be a Bigfoot evaporating into nothingness.

• 1:12:34Joe Rogan?

  What footage is this?

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  Filmed by Scott Carpenter.

• 1:12:38Joe Rogan?

  What is it called? What's the same one that we were just talking about?

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  American Sasquatch.

• 1:12:42Joe Rogan?

  Can we see that footage? Where is that in the film?

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  Um, it's during my interview with Scott.

• 1:12:48Joe Rogan?

  And so, who took this footage?

• 1:12:50Speaker 02

  Scott.

• 1:12:51Joe Rogan?

  And what year was this taken?

• 1:12:57Speaker 02

  Sometime in the last 10 years.

• 1:12:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay. And it shows something evaporating, like that there's, it looks like a Bigfoot evaporating into nothing?

• 1:13:07Speaker 02

  What you see is something kind of like smokiness looking down a trail.

• 1:13:13Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:13:14Speaker 02

  And then it slowly evolves to look like something that you and I would call a Bigfoot.

• 1:13:20Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:13:24Joe Rogan?

  So, what you're saying is that we're not dealing with a standard biological organism. We're dealing with something that's probably the product of some advanced species. And that they've created this thing, and this thing has the ability to move in ways, and appear and reappear in ways that don't make any sense to us.

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:13:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, that would make sense, if it was true, and again, putting that fucking tin foil hat on tight right now. That would make sense if you think about how many sightings there are. And that there are no bones, and there's no body, no one's found anything, there's nothing. There has been footprints, the footprints are weird. So, I'd like to dismiss the footprints, like, oh, come on, somebody just like made a fake footprint. The problem is, there's dermal ridges on these footprints. Some of them exhibit what's very similar to fingerprints. And that's very strange. And these are going back decades. So, super hard to reproduce something like that.

• 1:14:33Joe Rogan?

  And someone, you would have, I mean, you'd have to be a very, very advanced person, and have some sort of incredible ability to manipulate material science, just to be able to create something that recreates a dermal ridge, and then use it and make footprints with it that are similar to what like a creature would make. It was very heavy, moving through the ground, and pressing down on moist ground or mud, and leaving footprints that have fingerprints in it. It's weird, because these are not, it's not something like, you know, I weigh like 205 pounds or something like that, like, it's not like that.

• 1:15:18Joe Rogan?

  It's like something that weighs like 700 pounds, like, deep into the ground. It's weird.

• 1:15:24Speaker 02

  Abnormally heavy.

• 1:15:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, abnormally heavy, large feet. But again, no bones, no nothing. And the only DNA, it's like, hmm. You know, this, it's disputed, but of course, people are going to dispute everything. No one's going to look at it and go, this is definitely not human. You know, they're going to go, well, who did this? How'd she do it? You know, oh, this is a lab that's like not, not doing it well. And they're publishing in some journal behind a paywall. This is nonsense. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Scams have gotten smarter because criminals use AI to flood you with fake texts, emails and phone calls that are designed to be more convincing than ever. One wrong click can put your personal information and your identity at risk.

• 1:16:11Joe Rogan?

  So protect yourself with LifeLock. LifeLock helps detect and alert you to threats. And if your identity is stolen, LifeLock will step in to fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Dedicated US-based identity restoration specialists will work with you until your identity is restored, backed by the million dollar protection package with up to $3 million in coverage for eligible losses and expenses. Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE or go to lifelock.com/JRE for 30% off. Terms apply.

• 1:16:52Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by ShipStation. Black Friday is madness if you're shopping. But if you're the person trying to get all those orders out the door, that's a whole different kind of crazy. That's where ShipStation comes in. It's an end-to-end order fulfillment platform that brings all your orders into one place. So when volume spikes, your team isn't scrambling to keep up. More than 1 million businesses have used ShipStation to get through peak season, scaling fulfillment up to 40 times while cutting costs up to 30%. It's the kind of tool that helps businesses stay in control when things get nuts and every order matters. Peak season doesn't wait and neither should you.

• 1:17:36Joe Rogan?

  Get ahead of it today with ShipStation and get 60 days free at shipstation.com with the code JRE. That's shipstation.com code JRE. Taxes and fees apply. But then you have to think, well, okay, but are any other reputable labs, these reputable labs, are they interested in doing this work? Have they done the work? Have they taken the same stuff and done it through the exact same process, but not found the same results that she had? Or is there no other studies? Seems like there's no other legitimate studies of this same DNA.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  Dr. Ketchum took that DNA to four certified labs. One of them was the University of Texas. And all of those labs got the same result. She extracted it. They did the analysis. She did the comparison at GenBank.

• 1:18:30Joe Rogan?

  And she did this all herself? Or she had other scientists do it?

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  So she wrote a white paper and six different PhDs wrote it. The slam job there, I think it's interesting because, have you heard of an organization called BFRO?

• 1:18:46Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Biggest organization in the United States for Bigfoot sightings.

• 1:18:51Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay. Bigfoot research organization?

• 1:18:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. From Finding Bigfoot.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  Right, right. So, a man named Wally Hersham was their benefactor. He gave him millions of dollars over the years. And he, they had one job. Find DNA. 10, 15 years, they said they couldn't find it. We found it in less than a year. Wally came over when we had the DNA and looked at the results, met with Dr. Ketchum, said, "I am completely done. You guys have proven to me exactly what it is. I now know what it is." Pulled all of his funding at that point, he was out of the Bigfoot world. And he goes, "You guys did what nobody else could do."

• 1:19:37Joe Rogan?

  How come there's no good camera trap photos? You know, like, there's a lot of trail cameras out there that hunters use. How come there's no good trail cam photos? Do you think the idea is that these things know that cameras are there?

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  So, I think they have that ability to look in the infrared range.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  And they just stay away.

• 1:20:00Joe Rogan?

  Well, if they are from somewhere else. And, you know, we're assuming they're primitive because they're covered in hair. But what if they have some sort of psychic ability? Or some sort of intellect beyond what we would attach to an ape? And they understand what cameras are?

• 1:20:24Speaker 02

  So, do you know what the hitchhiker effect is?

• 1:20:25Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:20:27Speaker 02

  So, at Skinwalker Ranch, the investigators coming on to that ranch. When they left and they went home, they took those entities home with them. And the entities didn't ever bother the scientists. They bothered the relatives, the wives. They did spooky things. They'd come around, show up in the home, chase the kids around in the yard.

• 1:20:47Joe Rogan?

  What kind of entities?

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  A variety of things. Sometimes orbs, sometimes silhouettes of people. But things that never happened before happened after the scientists went home. And they talked about it on their show. And it's happened a lot. One of the things that happens to people that study Bigfoot is they have the same hitchhiker effect. It doesn't matter where you go. For some reason, and you were talking about, you know, maybe they read your mind or something. There's some kind of effect there that they'll follow you wherever you go. As an example, I live kind of in the middle of nowhere. And there's big woods behind my house. And I was walking behind the house one day. One track, middle of a muddy trail.

• 1:21:34Speaker 02

  No other tracks anyplace else. Seventeen inches, just one track.

• 1:21:40Speaker 02

  I can't tell you how many times other friends of mine and researchers have had the exact same thing happen. In the movie, I interviewed, I think, seven or eight researchers, all the best ones. They all say this has happened to them. It's that hitchhiker effect that they talk about at Skinwalker Ranch, which goes to the point of it being something extra-dimensional.

• 1:22:01Joe Rogan?

  I went to Skinwalker Ranch with my friend Duncan a few years back. I was doing this show for the Sci-Fi Channel called Joe Rogan Questions Everything, and one of the things we did was we went to Skinwalker Ranch, and we talked to a bunch of people there. And, you know, some of them were just clearly full of shit, but there was this one guy who was not. And he didn't have a lot of stories, but he said there was this one experience that he had where these orbs made it into his house, and this orb flew through his wall, was inside of his home, and it seemed like it was interacting with him. And then it was like paused, frozen in front of him, and then took off. This guy seemed like a

• 1:22:46Joe Rogan?

  completely rational, regular guy. Like I said, he didn't have a bunch of crazy stories about other things. I forget what his job was, but it was a regular job, regular guy. Seemed totally normal to talk to. But he said he had this one inexplicable experience. He said it was very strange. He said this thing just flew into his home. He said it was like, I think he said it was like the size of a softball, maybe a little larger. And it seemed like it was interacting with him.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  So, one of the people I interviewed for the movie was a former Navajo Ranger. You ever hear of those?

• 1:23:21Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  So, they went to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, full law enforcement credentials, super smart guy. He comes back, he works 10, 15 years for the Navajo Rangers. One day, the lieutenant calls him in, he and his partner. They say, "You got a new assignment." "Oh, what's that?" "You're gonna do nothing but investigate Bigfoot and UFOs."

• 1:23:42Joe Rogan?

  I'd be like, "Fuck." Fuck, yeah.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  He goes, wait a minute, I don't want to, I didn't sign up for that. He goes, I don't care. That's your new job. Because you guys are the two most credible people I have, you're gonna go do that.

• 1:23:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, because why? They had some sort of a suspicion?

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  Well, they had tons of calls about Bigfoot being on the property, UFOs showing up over property, all the above.

• 1:24:07Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:24:08Speaker 02

  And they wanted some expertise in that team. So, he and his friend start investigating Bigfoot. And all of the things I've just told you happened to him and his partner over those years. Big, they'd get a call at a lady's house that she just saw Bigfoot on her back porch. All the dogs are afraid, they're hiding under the porch. He goes there and he finds a track, a straight line. One thing about Bigfoot, as you and I would walk down a street, we walk staggeredly. Bigfoot walks one foot right in front of the other, and that's how you'll know it's real. Doesn't walk staggered like you and I.

• 1:24:48Joe Rogan?

  It walks like it's doing a DUI checkpoint.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  Exactly, yes. Like it's walking on a balance beam.

• 1:24:56Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 1:24:57Speaker 02

  And the, he talked about the stride was four or five feet. He goes, I couldn't do it. And, just like you were saying, that the track was so deep in the soil, they couldn't match it. He said it had to have been hundreds and hundreds of pounds. That's just one thing. But, over the years, they started to make this association between Bigfoot and UFOs. They did this all on their own. And, then he talked about the Native American belief. Well, Native Americans believe that they came from the stars. Each tribe does. And, just like you said, all of the tribes have a different name for these.

• 1:25:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  But nobody, no tribe, believes it's an animal.

• 1:25:41Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  No tribe believes it now.

• 1:25:43Joe Rogan?

  What do they think it is?

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  It's a human. It's an offshoot. There's a very-

• 1:25:49Joe Rogan?

  They think it came from the stars?

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  It came from the stars. There's a very, very famous set of stories coming out of the Pacific Northwest out of the 1920s and 30s where a tribe of Native Americans hear that there's some people walking down a trail through the woods. Bigfoot walks in front of them, starts throwing rocks at them, doesn't hit them, throwing rocks at them. The people go home, they tell the sheriff, "Hey, these huge hairy things are throwing rocks at us." Sheriff says, "Oh, that's BS. We'll go out there, we'll kill them all." The tribe hears about this, and Joe, it makes no sense. They have a press conference, swears I'm talking to you, and three tribes in the Pacific Northwest

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  have a press conference and it's in the Oregonian newspaper on the front page. When I found it, I said, "How come no other Bigfoot researchers ever talked about this?" Why? Because it doesn't support their belief system, that it's an- they think it's an ape or gorilla, and here the tribe's saying, "It's a tribe of people. We've traded with them at times."

• 1:26:54Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  They trade things with us at times.

• 1:26:57Joe Rogan?

  What do they give you back?

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  Uh, sometimes they- they will give them ornaments or certain kinds of foods that they have a tough time getting, and they will come back and they will give them certain kinds of food, animals, etc. But in this story on the front page of the Oregonian, they talk about this. And when I've gone to the Pacific Northwest and, Joe, there's not one tribe up there that believes they're an animal. None of them do. And they're the ones that have lived with them and handed these stories down over the ages.

• 1:27:29Joe Rogan?

  And they all think that they come from somewhere else?

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:27:34Joe Rogan?

  How do they think they got here?

• 1:27:38Joe Rogan?

  What's their like origin story?

• 1:27:40Speaker 02

  So, there's a man who owned a herd of cattle and was wintering them on the Oregon-California border up north of Crescent City.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  And every year he'd done this. This one year, this is another article in the paper, this one year, they winter with the Native Americans there. He sees this Native American walking with a tray of food. Doesn't think much of it the first day. Second day, he sees the guy walk up into the mountains up to this cliff area.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  Guy comes back and he says, "Hey, what's that for?" And goes, "I can't talk to you about that." So he goes straight to the chief. He owns all the cattle. He's working with the Native Americans. He goes to the chief, the chief goes, "We've got hairy moon up there." "Hairy moon." He goes, "Yeah, this thing came and it comes every couple of months. There's usually two of them that come together." And he goes, "Well, what do you mean?" He says, "We see a moon come out of the sky. It's very bright. It comes down near the land. And these two jump out of the moon.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  And they're friendly. They get along with us and they stay there and we feed them sometimes."

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  So that was in like 1885 newspaper? And you think about that story, how else would they describe? An orb, say?

• 1:29:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:04Speaker 02

  There's no other way to describe it back then.

• 1:29:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:29:07Speaker 02

  It comes down, these things jump out of it and they run into the woods. And the Native Americans have been dealing with them for all these years. That's, that's really the story.

• 1:29:20Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Now, the rational part of me, of course, wants to call bullshit. But the part that's willing to speculate, again, if so many people are having this very similar experience with this tall hairy ape-like thing in the woods, you gotta wonder, like, why is it the same thing? Like, why is it over and over again? And why do Native Americans have so many different names for this? And when, again, they don't have a bunch of mythical animals. It's not like they have tons of these like weird things that no one's ever seen before. Dragons and...

• 1:29:57Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:29:58Joe Rogan?

  Just one thing.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  Well, they do. They do have these things called little people. Fear of those?

• 1:30:04Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. What are those?

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  That's very odd. Something that kind of looks like you and me.

• 1:30:10Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:10Speaker 02

  But they're only about three feet tall.

• 1:30:12Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:30:13Speaker 02

  And they look like miniature, kind of like dwarves.

• 1:30:17Joe Rogan?

  Well, people have those experiences when they do mushrooms.

• 1:30:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:20Joe Rogan?

  Do you know that there's a specific mushroom that when you take it, everyone sees little tiny people?

• 1:30:27Speaker 02

  I didn't know that.

• 1:30:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, this is, there was a recent article about this. See if you can find it, Jamie.

• 1:30:33Joe Rogan?

  There's one very specific type of hallucinogenic mushroom where when you take it universally, everyone experiences little tiny people. Like little, like, you know, elves from ancient stories. I mean, what do you, why, why is that so common? Like, what is that? They saw them on their dishes when eating. The mushrooms that make people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans. Now, we're saying hallucinate, but we don't, if everyone's seeing the same exact vision, that's very strange. Every year, doctors at a hospital in the Yunnan province of China brace themselves for an influx of people with an unusual complaint.

• 1:31:18Joe Rogan?

  The patients come in with strikingly odd symptom. Visions of pint-sized elf-like figures marching under doors, crawling up wells, and clinging to furniture. The hospital treats hundreds of these cases every year. All share a common culprit. Uh, I don't know how to say this. La Ma- La Ma- O. Az- Aziateka?

• 1:31:45Speaker 03

  Aziateka.

• 1:31:46Joe Rogan?

  Aziateka?

• 1:31:47Speaker 03

  I don't know the first word.

• 1:31:48Joe Rogan?

  Okay, Aziateka, duh. La Ma- whatever it is. Lan- L-A-N-M-A-O-A.

• 1:31:56Joe Rogan?

  Asiatica, a type of mushroom that forms symbiotic relationships with the pine trees in nearby forests and is locally popular food known for its savory umami-packed flavor. In Yunnan, El Asiatica is sold in markets, it appears on restaurant menus, and is served at home during peak mushroom season between June and August. One must be careful to cook it thoroughly, though, otherwise the hallucinations will set in, or don't cook it at all, pussy. Come on, don't you want to see the elves? Why would you, why would you cook it? Outside of Yunnan and a couple other places, this strange mushroom is largely an enigma.

• 1:32:38Joe Rogan?

  There are many accounts of the existence of this psychedelic mushroom, and many people who looked for it, but they never found the species, says Juliana Ferchi, a mycologist and the founder and executive of the Fungi Federation, a nonprofit group dedicated to discovering, documenting, and conserving fungi. This person, Dom Naur, is on a quest to solve the decades-old mystery about this fungi species and identify the unknown compound responsible for its unusually similar hallucinations, as well as what it can potentially teach us about the human brain.

• 1:33:19Joe Rogan?

  You know, the thing is, like, is it teaching us something about the human brain, or is it allowing you to see something that's actually there all the time? What's at the bottom of that, Lilliputian?

• 1:33:30Speaker 03

  I was gonna show you.

• 1:33:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:33:32Speaker 03

  When I typed it into Perplexity, there's at least one...

• 1:33:35Joe Rogan?

  Ooh.

• 1:33:36Speaker 03

  Type the Choctaw have something.

• 1:33:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it says, "Many indigenous nations have their own name for little people, and the English phrase is just a loose umbrella term. Each language has specific words that usually mean something like little people, dwarves, or forest people." The Cherokee have it, ooh, what's that word? Yunui Sood, Sood's Dai, usually translated as little people. Choctaw, they have another crazy word. Little people and forest dwelling type called Kawi Anukasha, or forest dweller. Chicksaw have them for little people, small supernatural beings. Yeah, there's so many of these things like.

• 1:34:23Speaker 03

  For medicinal plants?

• 1:34:25Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh, describes a little person who provides corn and medicinal plants.

• 1:34:32Joe Rogan?

  Well, many, many, many people who have taken mushrooms see little tiny people, see little elves. And in fact, you know, that is a core part of the Santa Claus mystery. You know, Santa Claus, have you ever seen the relationship between Santa Claus and a mushroom called the Amanita mescalia?

• 1:34:52Speaker 03

  Heard it.

• 1:34:53Joe Rogan?

  Do you know that whole thing?

• 1:34:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, one of the weird things about Santa Claus is if you go back and look at old Christmas art, like Christmas art from the turn of the century, all of it has Amanita mescalia mushrooms in it and elves. It's very weird that you would connect Christmas with elves and a known hallucinogenic mushroom. And that these little elves and these big mushrooms are all together and it's Merry Christmas. See if you can find some of those old, they're, they're really weird. Because it's like, well, how did we forget that and how did that go away? And there's also the way Santa Claus looks himself.

• 1:35:34Joe Rogan?

  Santa Claus with his red outfit, with his bright red outfit, with the, the white cuffs and the white buttons. The mushroom itself is bright red with white spots on it. Like, look at these. Look how weird that is. Look, Santa Claus with psychedelic mushrooms.

• 1:35:53Speaker 03

  Gotta be careful a little bit now because we've talked about it. Some of it has to have been created.

• 1:35:57Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, a hundred percent.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  You know, like this.

• 1:35:59Joe Rogan?

  We've fucked up the whole world.

• 1:36:00Speaker 03

  This is too new, like that's brand new.

• 1:36:02Joe Rogan?

  Is it brand new?

• 1:36:03Speaker 03

  That's not vintage. Look at, that looks awesome.

• 1:36:05Joe Rogan?

  Are you sure?

• 1:36:05Speaker 03

  AI made it. Yeah, it's on Etsy.

• 1:36:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah, probably. But some of the old ones are real, like the one in the middle is legit, like that one's legit right there that you just put up there. And that one's from somewhere else. Look at that. How crazy is that? I wrote an article for my website, Santa Claus was a mushroom a long time ago about this. And I probably fucked up the whole algorithm. But if you look at these images, these are ancient images that, um, the one that you had up there with the foreign language on it, where it says psychedelic, yeah, that one. Like, how weird is that? That these little elves are carrying these giant psychedelic mushrooms with them.

• 1:36:43Joe Rogan?

  And they're walking off with it, and this has to do with Christmas, how? Why does Christmas have to do with psychedelic mushrooms? The question is, are these compounds, are you hallucinating when you take these compounds? Or is it opening up your vision to see things that are there all the time anyway?

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  Good question.

• 1:37:03Joe Rogan?

  Right. And like, how many people have gone and taken mushrooms in the woods and seen Bigfoot? It's another question. Like, how many people have taken psychedelic compounds that dissolve the ego, completely put you in a different set, a different space in terms of your headspace, and then you're able to see things perhaps that are there all the time anyway?

• 1:37:27Joe Rogan?

  The Bigfoot one is so weird, because I always want to dismiss it. The rational part of me wants to go, oh, shut up, it's all nonsense. I go back and forth with Bigfoot. And then, the other part of me goes, too many people. Too many people see the same thing. Too many people have had the, they can't all be crazy or liars. They can't all be. And if they're not, then like, what is that thing? And why, why is there no dead body? Why is there, well, maybe because it's not the same as we are. Maybe it comes from somewhere else. And maybe that is the whole, the whole experience. That the whole experience is weird. And that you really can't quantify it.

• 1:38:09Joe Rogan?

  You can't, you can't talk about it the same way you talk about like, oh, you know, I know where a sloth lives. You know, it's like, it's a different kind of a creature.

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  So I've been around some people that say they believe that we're part of a simulation.

• 1:38:23Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  And part of that simulation is, you get enough coins and you can drop in a new entity in the game that can screw with you.

• 1:38:35Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy. Hey, you get the right mushrooms, you see little people crawling up your chair.

• 1:38:41Speaker 02

  Or let's, let's see how this guy handles a bigfoot walking in front of him.

• 1:38:45Joe Rogan?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:38:46Speaker 02

  See how much his blood pressure goes up.

• 1:38:49Joe Rogan?

  Right, yeah. Well, it's also whatever we're doing in this, as a human being going through this life, you know, you have a certain understanding of what's real and what's not real, and what to expect and what not to expect. Based on your life experiences, based on what everybody else is telling you about the world around you. And you kind of categorized everything into what's real and what you, what you're gonna experience walking through this world. But just what we know about the material world is so bizarre. Just what we know about subatomic particles, just what we know about the very nature of matter itself.

• 1:39:32Joe Rogan?

  It's all energy condensed in, in different weird ways. And that most of what atoms are is empty space. And that a particle, like subatomic particle can appear and disappear. We don't know where they're going. They can, they could be both moving, they can be moving and still at the same time. They could be in a place of superposition. Like, what are we talking about with just reality itself? Reality itself, the lowest observable, the smallest, the deepest we can look at it, it's fucking magic. Like, reality itself is magic. And then you have the weirdness of the observer effect. That when you, when you pay attention to particles, they, they behave differently?

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 1:40:19Joe Rogan?

  And that there's some sort of research that shows that we, somehow or another, we can actually affect particles in the past? Like, quantum physicists talk about this, not kooks like me, but quantum physicists talk about... There's some sort of evidence that the observer effect can affect things in the past. Well, how far in the past? If it's only a few seconds, is it a millisecond? What, is it limited to that or is it not? Like, is it the whole world flexible? Is everything malleable? Is everything dependent upon consciousness? And then what is consciousness? Is it simply what's in between your ears? Or are you tuning in to consciousness?

• 1:41:03Joe Rogan?

  And it's just the limitations of your radio? That's making the world around you shape into the form that you currently see? And maybe that is why, when you add things to that radio, like psychedelic mushrooms, like the ones that make you see the little people, or the ones that make you see elves at Santa Claus.

• 1:41:23Joe Rogan?

  You know, we, I think we get, we get real arrogant when we talk about what reality is. Especially when we know, from our understanding of reality, that reality, again, at its quantum state is essentially insane and impossible. It's magic.

• 1:41:40Speaker 02

  Friend of mine the other day said, "Hey Dave, why don't you go with me? I'm gonna go do ayahuasca again." He's done it a few times. And he says, "Dave, it'll open up your mind to things that you just don't understand that are real." And he goes, "I've done it a couple times. I've had replicate seeing the same thing multiple, multiple times, that I know I could never see without it." Have you ever done it?

• 1:42:02Joe Rogan?

  I have not done ayahuasca, but ayahuasca is the orally active form of DMT. And I've done that.

• 1:42:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Is your experience positive?

• 1:42:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I've never had a negative experience. Uh, but it is very strange. And it feels more real than reality itself. And you are 100% communicating with creatures. Some beings. Things that are, they, they, they appear to be living geometric patterns.

• 1:42:33Joe Rogan?

  I've had multiple experiences with jesters, with things that look like jesters, where they're giving me the finger. And they were basically telling me that I take myself too seriously. They were like, "Fuck you." And then I was like, "What?" And then I was like, "Oh, I get it." And they're like, "Right." They were like telling me, like, "Yeah, yeah, you take yourself too seriously." I was like, "Oh, you're right. You're right." Like, yeah, you have to be very careful with the experience because if you're a control freak, if you can't just let go, you can lose your marbles. You can really go crazy. And it's not really recommended to anybody that has a slippery hold on reality already, like people with psychiatric conditions and people that are already kind of fucked up.

• 1:43:18Joe Rogan?

  But if you're reasonably stable and you are calm and rational and you can just let go, it is a wild experience. It's a wild experience that should not be illegal and should probably be studied and understood. What was the guy that we had on recently, Jamie? The guy who was doing, Andrew Gallimore? How do you say his name? Who was doing those, um, they're setting it up in a country where it's legal and they're doing IV DMT trips that last like five hours. And these people, they go and they have this experience

• 1:44:00Joe Rogan?

  and when they do it, they all encounter similar places, similar beings, and similar patterns. Like they come back with very similar stories. Like they're making a map of the territory of whatever this is that you're doing. And they all have the exact same way of describing it, which is similar to the way I described it before I ever heard of any of this, is that it feels more real than reality itself. Reality itself seems very dull and very mushy and not crisp, if that's the way to say it. Whereas the DMT experience is very vivid. The colors are insanely bright.

• 1:44:44Joe Rogan?

  The experience that you get by encountering whatever these creatures seems way more powerful than any kind of experience that you have in normal, everyday consciousness.

• 1:44:55Speaker 02

  So does that drug open some kind of door or receiver or transmitter?

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  We call it a drug, but the problem with calling it a drug is the human brain makes it. So Terrence McKenna had a great line. He said, "If DMT is a drug, everyone's holding." Because you've got to make something illegal that's produced by the human body. Like, we know for a fact it's produced in the brain. We know for a fact that the mind actually makes this compound, which is the most potent psychedelic compound known to man. It's very weird when the human mind, the human brain, rather, makes a psychedelic compound that's the most potent compound known to man. Not just that, but it exists in thousands of different plants.

• 1:45:38Joe Rogan?

  The problem is, when we eat them, it gets broken down in our gut by monoamine oxidase. Like, there's a bunch of different, like, phalaris grass is very rich in it, the acacia tree is very rich in it. In fact, there's some scholars from Jerusalem that believe that the story of Moses and the burning bush was Moses burning the acacia bush, which has DMT in it, and experiencing God. Which completely tracks, if you think about it. Like, this is what the experience feels like. It feels like you're dealing with an all-powerful entity that's filled with love and understanding

• 1:46:19Joe Rogan?

  and knows you better than you know yourself, and gives you guidelines on how to live life. And that Moses came back from this experience with these commandments, how to live life. That we all agree today, we look at those commandments, like, these are very reasonable. Makes a lot of sense.

• 1:46:37Speaker 02

  So sometimes I'm sitting at my desk, and I've got my dog laying next to me. And the dog's looking down the hallway at my kitchen. And I've got a Great Pyrenees. And she's just laying there, looking. Then like, one every four or five days, she'll just jump up at like, 10 o'clock at night and start growling at something down the hall. Little people. I don't know what it is. She sees something we don't see. So are they always there?

• 1:47:06Joe Rogan?

  It's a good question, and what can the animal see that we can't? Because they definitely see things that we can't. They experience things that, I mean, their senses are so different than ours. We just assume that we both live in the same world, but we clearly don't. Dogs live in a different world than us. The world that they experience is rich with smells and sounds, and they hear things and they smell things that we couldn't even imagine what they are. Yeah. These, uh, the weird thing about DMT is that someone figured out in the Amazon, thousands and thousands of years ago, no one even knows when, how to make this plant orally active. So what they did is they took the leaves of one plant and the roots of the other.

• 1:47:51Joe Rogan?

  So one of the plants contains dimethyltryptamine, and the other one contains harmine, which is an MAO inhibitor, monoamine oxidase inhibitor. And this MAO inhibitor allows DMT to be orally active. Whereas if you just ate that plant, the monoamine oxidase in your gut would break the plant down and you would never experience the DMT trip. Like, how? How did they figure out how to do that?

• 1:48:16Speaker 02

  How?

• 1:48:16Joe Rogan?

  And you ask them, they tell them the plants told them how to do it.

• 1:48:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Right. Like, what? But when you think about people that were living in this incredibly rich, life-filled jungle for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, and with no contact with the Western world as we know it today, right? So this is thousands of years ago. They're living in, they have the subsistence lifestyle, living with animals and plants and fish, and they probably are deeply in tuned with the jungle, and deeply in tuned with the wildlife and the plants in a way that we can't even possibly understand. And that we've probably dulled all those senses, or they've atrovied to a point,

• 1:49:05Joe Rogan?

  you know, where we just, we just assume that everybody sees the world the way we do. And I don't think those people did or do.

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 1:49:17Joe Rogan?

  They all have, they all talk about experiences with entities from somewhere else, too.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:49:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:25Joe Rogan?

  It's a very weird world out there. And that's why, you know, when someone tells a story about being abducted by a craft from another dimension, it's so easy to just dismiss them. It's so easy to just throw it all away. But, I mean, like, I was watching Fox News yesterday, where they were talking about the different kinds of entities that the, the United States government has encountered. Did you see that?

• 1:49:48Speaker 02

  I saw it.

• 1:49:48Joe Rogan?

  Like, have you seen it? Did you see that shit, Jamie?

• 1:49:50Speaker 03

  But I've been waiting to see. I'd show you this thing that was part of the movie. He shows it on the, I have it on the screen. Uh, that's the box, if you will, the transparent box that Carl, who we talked about earlier, was taken into.

• 1:50:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 1:50:05Speaker 03

  Where he was, once he was in there.

• 1:50:07Joe Rogan?

  Hold this thought, because I gotta pee. We'll come right back and we'll talk about this box. I gotta pee real bad. We're back. Alright, so, we were at this portal thing?

• 1:50:17Speaker 03

  Showing you this guy, so he had, uh, this transparent, which I would say is like, you know, transparent cube.

• 1:50:24Joe Rogan?

  This is what he described?

• 1:50:25Speaker 03

  Probably could have a sphere in it.

• 1:50:26Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:50:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, so he said he described that showing up, and a six-foot-tall figure came out and didn't tell him to come there, but said telepathically, "Come with me." He got in it, and there he saw his targeted elk frozen in beams of light alongside five figures.

• 1:50:45Joe Rogan?

  Human-like figures that seemed more spectral than alive, stiff, unblinking, like passengers in stasis.

• 1:50:53Speaker 03

  And then the ship shifted and took him 163,000 light-years away and ended up on a tower on an alien planet, where they fixed all of his ailments.

• 1:51:05Joe Rogan?

  A tower on an alien planet under a violet sky.

• 1:51:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then they said, like, "You're not suitable, they don't, we can't use you, sorry."

• 1:51:13Joe Rogan?

  Because of his, because he's got no jizz.

• 1:51:16Speaker 03

  And then he was found miles away, sort of just like how, um, Travis Walton was found.

• 1:51:20Joe Rogan?

  Whoa. Hypnosis sessions later revealed more.

• 1:51:25Joe Rogan?

  Uh, what's his name, Auso? Iuso?

• 1:51:28Speaker 03

  That's the, in quotes, alien. That'd be the entity.

• 1:51:32Joe Rogan?

  Iuso One. Okay.

• 1:51:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:34Joe Rogan?

  Uh, kind, we're experimenting on humans and animals possibly for genetic or dimensional purposes? Carl's truck was found miles away in impassable terrain, embedded in mud, with him inside, babbling about lights and voices. In impassable terrain?

• 1:51:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:53Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:51:54Speaker 03

  So there's a bunch of, I mean, you're

• 1:51:55Joe Rogan?

  So his, his truck was just placed in a place where it couldn't get to? Correct.

• 1:52:00Speaker 03

  There's a bunch of pictures that, I don't know if, I'm imagining he drew some of these, cause in that video-

• 1:52:05Joe Rogan?

  No, bro, those are photos.

• 1:52:06Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's it.

• 1:52:08Speaker 03

  He holds up this photo, so I think he drew this.

• 1:52:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:52:11Speaker 03

  So he's an older man and drew what he remembered, so a little bit of leeway.

• 1:52:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so he drew the one there, and then someone did an artist recreation. Oh, look at how weird.

• 1:52:19Speaker 03

  Like weird arm, like a knife for an arm, or something.

• 1:52:23Speaker 02

  So he, he said he thought that those were almost robotic.

• 1:52:27Joe Rogan?

  Ah, interesting. Well, that kinda makes sense, right? That eventually being, this is the photos of the bullet. It kinda makes sense that eventually we would realize, like, why would we travel places where we could just make like an artificial person to do it and report back to us everything? Why, why risk a human's life? Hundred percent.

• 1:52:47Speaker 03

  Which is what we're about to do, that's what Elon's doing to the moon. He's gonna send the robots up to make the stuff on the moon. Way easier than sending people.

• 1:52:56Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:52:56Speaker 03

  You don't need air, they don't need air.

• 1:52:57Joe Rogan?

  That makes sense why he's canceling the Model S. And, you know, that, and the X.

• 1:53:02Speaker 03

  Get to work.

• 1:53:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, get those Optimus Rob, cause he's, he's transformed some of his factories. They've, they've stopped the Model S and the Model X, and they're using it to make these Optimus Robots instead, that factory. And then these robots are gonna fly to the moon.

• 1:53:17Speaker 03

  If we had that idea, no one else, like, you know?

• 1:53:20Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:53:20Speaker 03

  No one else has had that same thing?

• 1:53:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, of course, it makes sense. So he, he got a sense that this was a robot? Yes. A lot of people have also said that about the grays, that they get the sense that they're not really an, an actual, physical, like, or a biological organism, that there's some sort of a hybrid thing, or some sort of a whatever.

• 1:53:40Speaker 02

  The thing that got me about that is that if it was robotic, that it still has the ability to mind-speak? That is really advanced.

• 1:53:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, I mean, we have to figure out what consciousness is, right? And what communication is? And if, if there's something you could tune, you'd, you know, you could have a robot that could speak out loud, so why can't you have a robot that transmits? Why couldn't, I mean, with sufficient enough technology, it kind of makes sense that you would have something that has the ability to transmit into your mind. So do you think with, when you're studying all these different people missing? And like, do you try to put a percentage on how many of these people you think just got eaten by bears? And how many of these people you think are having these kind of experiences?

• 1:54:27Speaker 02

  So if there's any evidence of animal predation, I don't even work with them. I just push them out.

• 1:54:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:33Speaker 02

  Won't even look at the case.

• 1:54:34Joe Rogan?

  You're only looking at the cases that are super weird.

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  That fit that, no animals can track, canines can't track.

• 1:54:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  They're, they bring in a professional tracker, they can't track.

• 1:54:46Speaker 02

  There's a weather issue in relationship to the disappearance. Sometimes the people are found next to water or amongst a boulder field. And there's another one, Joe, boulder fields. Now, if you think about where's the most boulders and granite? It's Yosemite Valley. And what goes through the middle of Yosemite Valley? Water, the Merced River. And that area specifically, that's a hard valley to get lost in. But yet, how did these people get lost? And we're not talking about people going into the backcountry. We're talking about people getting lost in Yosemite Valley that disappear and aren't found. And there's a couple of case, well, there's probably 10 cases that are just absolutely bizarre.

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  There's a case that was investigated by Yosemite investigators back 40 years ago. As a woman came out and they found her body so far away from a cliff that they said she, their words, she was launched.

• 1:55:51Speaker 02

  So it's like if you jumped or you fell, you could only go so far from the cliff.

• 1:55:56Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:55:57Speaker 02

  She was found too far from the cliff and they called it launched, but they couldn't understand how she got that far.

• 1:56:04Joe Rogan?

  Not possible with a gust of wind?

• 1:56:06Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:56:07Joe Rogan?

  How far was she?

• 1:56:09Speaker 02

  That's all that that's that was their wording.

• 1:56:12Joe Rogan?

  That she had to have been launched.

• 1:56:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:56:15Speaker 02

  And I've never seen that wording before in any park service report. They're usually very conservative in the way they discuss things.

• 1:56:25Joe Rogan?

  And so this aligns with this idea that they get dropped.

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:56:32Joe Rogan?

  That's very disturbing that aliens would do that to us, just drop us. Like, I would think that if they're gonna abduct you, hey, place me back in my bed. Be nice.

• 1:56:42Speaker 02

  So pay attention when the next time you see a story about somebody being abducted. A lot of times, they're dropped in their bed. They're not placed, they're dropped.

• 1:56:52Joe Rogan?

  Ah.

• 1:56:56Joe Rogan?

  Um, how many of these people that go missing like this under weird circumstances die versus just disappear forever?

• 1:57:06Speaker 02

  I would say that probably forty percent, fifty percent are never found. I would say that maybe half of that half that's left, twenty-five, twenty-five, split between alive and dead. But you find out a lot more about the case if you get the body back. Because the body sometimes will show things that doesn't make any sense at all. A lot of times, the person will disappear and it's an eighty-degree day. We talk about that point of separation. You're going this way, I'm going to the right. And a hundred yards from where I last saw you, there's a pile of clothes there. And you're thinking, well, it's eighty degrees out, why is there a pile of clothes?

• 1:57:49Speaker 02

  His underwear, his socks, his shoes, everything piled right there. He's never found. Where'd he go? Why would he take all of his clothes off? People would say, well, you know, he, uh, it's hypothermia and there's a condition where you take all your clothes off. Not eighty degree weather, not that fast. It doesn't happen. And so, missing clothing, missing shoes are part of this that don't make any sense. If you're in the woods, you're on a trail, you're not gonna take your shoes off.

• 1:58:22Joe Rogan?

  It's all very weird. Does anybody ever have an experience where they go and they get abducted? And then they ask, what happens to some of these people? How many people do you do this to?

• 1:58:37Speaker 02

  It must have happened, but I don't know if they've ever gotten a response from it.

• 1:58:42Joe Rogan?

  Has anybody ever asked, how many people do you abduct? How many people have you taken like this?

• 1:58:48Speaker 02

  I'm sure they've asked, but I'm not sure that they would have gotten an answer.

• 1:58:53Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  And then you know that there's a theory out there that there's more than one type or one group taking people.

• 1:59:01Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Well, this is the Fox News thing. See if you can find that Fox News report, because it's kind of wacky. Because watching it on Fox News, you're like, is Fox News all of a sudden coast to coast with Art Bell? Like, what the hell's happened? Because they were talking about the reptilians and the Nordics, the grays. Fox News, TV, like, regular TV. Like, what is going on here? Is that nonsense? Are they being fed nonsense? Or is this disclosure, and are they slow, trickling this out to us to get regular folks, like boomers? Get them accustomed to this idea of there are entities out there?

• 1:59:45Speaker 02

  What if they're just acclimating you to the reality of our world? And what if, what if the truth is, is that there's people around you that are aliens and you don't even know it?

• 1:59:59Joe Rogan?

  I think Elon's a fuck. Fucking alien. It's the only thing that makes sense. I think I met a few aliens. Definitely. Joey Diaz might be an alien. There's a few people that I've met that I'm like, "You're not real. There's no way you're real." But Elon's the top of my list. Like, he doesn't even make sense. Like, I've met a lot of people that are smarter than me. I'm, you know, I'm not the smartest guy. But, uh, there's only a few people that I've met that I'm like, "Okay, we're not even the same thing." Okay, let's hear this. This is what Dan from, um, Age of Disclosure, and that's one of-

• 2:00:31Speaker 04

  A number of people I interviewed in my film, senior intelligence officials, went on the record saying that, um, there have been dozens of crashed craft of non-human origin over the years, and elements of our government have recovered those, those crashes, and they've gotten out of that technology of non-human origin, and in some cases, non-human bodies that were on these, on these craft. A number of the people in my film go on the record saying that the bodies were not all the same type, meaning there were multiple species.

• 2:01:00Speaker 05

  Were the bodies alive, or were they dead?

• 2:01:04Speaker 04

  The people in my film talked about, uh, events where they were, they were dead bodies. They were deceased bodies.

• 2:01:12Speaker 05

  Okay. And-

• 2:01:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:01:15Speaker 05

  There's a lot of speculation about the amount of UFO information we've been given on this first tranche. Uh, we expected more, we know there is more. Why do you think people inside the government are fighting so hard to release more?

• 2:01:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, so the president gave his directive in middle of February, essentially instructing all federal agencies to declassify evidence of non-human intelligent life and UAP. What happened after that is, uh, the White House had to go get that evidence out of the hands of all these federal agencies, and they all, they all, for the most part, pushed back. Uh, the people who have gate-kept this information for 80 years, they don't, they don't want to share it. You know, they've, they've gotten a lot of power and control, um, over the years, and it's just frankly not human nature for people to want to give up power and control. So, there's a tug-of-war happening behind the scenes. Um, there are a number of other reasons guiding their- Their desire to keep this secret, including a general belief that the public can't handle

• 2:02:14Speaker 04

  the truth. I would argue the public can't handle the truth. I think my film shows that. People aren't watching it and jumping out of windows. They're curious and they want to learn more. There's also a general feeling that, a concern that they can't tell the American public what they know and don't know without also telling our adversaries and giving them some sort of advantage. But I think, I think that that's-

• 2:02:38Joe Rogan?

  Is that good? Yeah, it's good. Go back to that one weird one, the beginning, the black and white one that looked like a star. That looked like, um-

• 2:02:45Speaker 04

  That's been debunked, I think, by people online.

• 2:02:46Joe Rogan?

  Is it?

• 2:02:47Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:02:47Joe Rogan?

  Oh, how dare they. That one?

• 2:02:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:02:49Joe Rogan?

  That's debunked?

• 2:02:50Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:02:50Joe Rogan?

  But this is one of the more recent ones that was released in this immense dump of information. How's it been debunked?

• 2:02:57Speaker 04

  Uh, it's like, I'll fucking look it up.

• 2:03:00Joe Rogan?

  I'm gonna debunk to debunkers. Fuck off, that thing's awesome. I want that thing to be real. Um, yeah. That's Dan Farah from Age of Disclosure, which, if you haven't seen it, folks, amazing documentary, very interesting. You know, it's a bunch of different people that have inside information that are talking about it and want, here they're just debunking it. "The eight-pointed star refers to a declassified 2013 infrared military video released as part of the government UFO files. The footage was widely debated online and linked to alien or biblical origins. However, experts debunked the phenomenon, explaining it is simply a distortion caused by a hot jet engine's exhaust plume hitting

• 2:03:45Joe Rogan?

  a military infrared camera." Allegedly. I prefer to believe that it's something else. I don't know.

• 2:03:53Speaker 02

  Let me add another twist to this missing person thing for you.

• 2:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Okay, please.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  So, it's more of an evolution for me, learning what could be happening in those woods. And I started off in national parks. And the most recent thing I've done, Missing 411 National Parks, Washington State, there's a case where a guy in 2006 disappeared in Olympic National Park. He was a former Army Intelligence Officer. He worked in Israel, he worked in Africa, he worked in a lot of different places, spoke six languages. And then he started to work in campaigns. And he worked for a woman who was campaigning to be a Congresswoman in Washington State. She lost. She became the head of retirement services in the state of Washington.

• 2:04:41Speaker 02

  She brought him along as the assistant. His name is Gilbert Gilman. When I wrote the story up for my books, he was supposed to show up at this meeting for her on a Sunday. He stopped off at Olympic National Park, parked his car, was playing the music loud. A ranger come by, asked him to turn it down. He turned it down, he got out, and he walked into the woods. He never came back. Huge search, he's never found. That's all I really knew. And I wrote it up like that. Canines couldn't follow his track, it disappeared, blah, blah, blah. Then I interview, we set up doing this thing for the movie, interviewing his relatives. And I interview his girlfriend. And his girlfriend said she saw him a month beforehand.

• 2:05:26Speaker 02

  And she said, "A week before he disappeared, he was trying to call me, like he wanted to tell me something, and I was busy and I couldn't talk to him. And I knew he wanted to tell me something, but then I put it up, so something was wrong." I never got to talk to him again. So I start talking to her about his past. And I said, "Well, did he ever work for the CIA?" And Joe, she goes, "I don't know if I could talk about that." I said, "Well, why can't you talk about that?" "Well, I don't, I don't know. I don't think I can." Well, that means yes. Exactly. So...

• 2:06:04Speaker 02

  So she gets emotional. She's upset. She can't see him. And then we go into the next room, interview his mom. And his mom says, "Well, Dave, a lot of people don't know this, that before he disappeared, I have a penthouse in Chicago." This woman's really wealthy. And Gilbert has a bedroom there. And he asked me to stack a couple of books on his nightstand. And he wrote something on a yellow pad on my coffee table in Arabic. And I said, "How long was that sitting there?" And she goes, "Well, I went one week. And he disappeared. I never got to really look at it.

• 2:06:45Speaker 02

  And then I flew to Washington. So I don't know what he wrote." So Joe here's the kicker. I said, "Well, that's pretty strange." And she goes, "No, Dave. What's really strange is I'm in Washington and we're doing this search for Gilbert. And the people who run my townhouse, my condominium, she lives like on the 30th floor, call me and said, 'Two FBI agents were just here. And they said they needed to get into your townhouse. And I gave them the keys and they went into your townhouse and took some things.'" I said, "Mrs. Gilman, they can't do that. I don't care what they say. They need a search warrant to go in your house. He can't give permission. What was taken?" Well, I went back. The yellow pad was gone.

• 2:07:30Speaker 02

  And a couple of his personal things were gone. So I said, "This doesn't make any sense. Why would the FBI go into your house to retrieve anything of Gilbert's if this is a missing person case and he has no relationship to the government?" And she goes, "Well, Dave, you're asking what I've been thinking all along." Now, this happened 15 years before I interviewed her. She's sharp as a tack. Girlfriend, sharp as a tack. And she says, "Things haven't seemed right." And she said, "I think, I think he's alive somewhere." So as she's saying all this, my mind's racing and I'm thinking, "How many other people have disappeared in a national park

• 2:08:15Speaker 02

  under circumstances that I just heard from a girlfriend and the mom? But I don't know about them because I haven't been able to interview their girlfriends and their moms. And why wouldn't the Park Service give me the information on the report?"

• 2:08:32Speaker 02

  If it was a straight missing person case like this, they would. So really, is there something more nefarious going on in the parks about taking people that they're in conjunction with some other body, some other three-letter agency to make people go away?

• 2:08:52Joe Rogan?

  So they're doing this on purpose with people that have information that's inconvenient or that's top secret, that they don't want it being leaked somehow?

• 2:09:02Speaker 02

  I had the feeling Gilbert knew. I think, I think it was all planned.

• 2:09:08Joe Rogan?

  He knew that they were gonna take him?

• 2:09:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think he, he agreed to go.

• 2:09:13Joe Rogan?

  Why, why do you think that?

• 2:09:16Speaker 02

  Because he left that pad with, with the writing in Arabic.

• 2:09:20Joe Rogan?

  Did he speak Arabic?

• 2:09:21Speaker 02

  He spoke six languages.

• 2:09:23Joe Rogan?

  And we don't know what he wrote down in Arabic?

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:09:26Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:09:27Speaker 02

  And she also said a peculiar thing. I don't, I'm, I'm sorry, I don't remember the books, but he asked her to get two books and put on the counter, and she thought that that was a clue to what happened. Dante's Inferno might have been one of them. And I forgot the other book. But she said, Dave, I think that's a clue, I just don't understand what he was trying to say.

• 2:09:53Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 2:09:55Speaker 02

  But that's also not the first time something like this has happened where somebody disappeared and it was all pointing to the government. In the 1950s, there was a man that was going to Miami University. He played in their band, he was a wrestler for the varsity wrestling team, he was an all-around guy. One night, he comes home to his dorm and strangely, there's a fish in his bed. And he asks the RA for new sheets. She brings in new sheets, he gets them changed. Make a long story short, he disappears right after that, that night. So it's like, that's the message that you're gonna go that night or something? I don't know.

• 2:10:41Speaker 02

  So, everything just looks like the guy disappeared from college. Except five months later, the head of housing for Miami University, or Miami, Ohio, is at a city 10 miles north of the Pennsylvania border in New York, a little tiny city. He and his wife are having dinner at a bed and breakfast. And sitting across from them, 10 feet away, are three men at a table. And he says, "I'm telling you, that was Ron Taman." That's the guy's name. And he's talking to the wife, and they keep, keep looking at each other.

• 2:11:24Speaker 02

  So, they go out to the parking lot, and he tells his wife, "I've gotta go back in. Ron's disappeared. I've gotta go talk to him." So, he goes back in, and all three of the guys are gone, all dressed in suits. That was another indicator that the government had some, something to do with the disappearance. Now, Ron's family lived in LA. They never saw Ron again, never heard from him again.

• 2:11:45Joe Rogan?

  What do you think they're doing? Like, why would they do that?

• 2:11:48Speaker 02

  Well, the question I, and I've talked to my team about this. Why would the government need you to separate yourself from the family under unusual circumstances? What would be that point? I don't understand. If you wanted to go to work for government services, why wouldn't you just do it?

• 2:12:07Speaker 03

  There's a story about fish in Ron's bed on ronaldtaman.com. This is the right guy?

• 2:12:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's him.

• 2:12:14Speaker 03

  Says this was a prank. Someone confessed it to him in 2010.

• 2:12:19Speaker 02

  The fish was a prank?

• 2:12:20Speaker 03

  That's what it says. 2010, he confessed to me the culprit behind the fish prank.

• 2:12:24Joe Rogan?

  Okay. But still, the guy disappeared. Think of it this way, in these emotionally charged and divisive times, when no one seems to agree on much of anything, I present to you the one shining example of a core belief with, with which all of humanity can surely agree, at that time, honored value is this: No one in his or her right mind would ever knowingly sleep with a dead fish in their bed. Okay? Depends on how tired you are. Okay.

• 2:12:58Joe Rogan?

  This doesn't make any sense to me. So, when these guys just disappear, like, you think that he knew he was going to be taken?

• 2:13:07Speaker 02

  Ron, I don't know.

• 2:13:08Joe Rogan?

  You don't know, but the other guy that went into the woods? You think he knew?

• 2:13:11Speaker 02

  I think Gilbert knew.

• 2:13:13Joe Rogan?

  And how do you think he was taken?

• 2:13:15Speaker 02

  That's a good question. I don't know.

• 2:13:17Speaker 03

  That one says he might be a victim of a serial killer that someone else investigated on a TV show ten, twenty years ago.

• 2:13:24Speaker 02

  That's completely BS.

• 2:13:26Joe Rogan?

  Why do you think that?

• 2:13:28Speaker 02

  If a serial killer killed him in the middle of the woods, they would have found his body.

• 2:13:34Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:13:35Speaker 03

  The guy said that he put at least one, maybe up to eight bodies, a hundred feet at the bottom of the lake.

• 2:13:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:13:43Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 2:13:45Speaker 03

  He admitted to at least eight slayings before he died at age thirty-four.

• 2:13:49Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 2:13:50Speaker 03

  Didn't say he killed this guy, but...

• 2:13:52Joe Rogan?

  But he killed him in that area?

• 2:13:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13:53Joe Rogan?

  Oh. Well, that's possible. That would be why they didn't find the body.

• 2:14:01Speaker 02

  They should have found tracks to a kill site. They would have found evidence.

• 2:14:06Joe Rogan?

  Right. They would have probably found some blood.

• 2:14:08Speaker 02

  And remember, they were on that from the day he disappeared.

• 2:14:11Joe Rogan?

  And they had dogs?

• 2:14:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:13Joe Rogan?

  They would have found blood.

• 2:14:14Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:14:14Joe Rogan?

  Unless they strangled them.

• 2:14:16Speaker 02

  Well, even if they would have strangled them, there would have been so many people in that area, that guy would have been seen at least.

• 2:14:24Joe Rogan?

  Really? How... was this, like, wooded? You're talking about a lake? You sure that he'd been seen?

• 2:14:30Speaker 02

  It was a small parking lot, not a big area.

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:32Speaker 02

  This isn't like a real big parking lot, a real big tourist attraction.

• 2:14:36Joe Rogan?

  But if this guy had done this to a bunch of people, for sure.

• 2:14:38Speaker 02

  Not right there.

• 2:14:40Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 2:14:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:14:41Joe Rogan?

  Okay. The guy who disappeared and went to the woods, and you think that guy... what was his name again?

• 2:14:48Speaker 02

  Ron Taman?

• 2:14:49Joe Rogan?

  No, the other guy. The guy that disappeared and went to the woods?

• 2:14:51Speaker 02

  Gilbert Gilman?

• 2:14:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:53Joe Rogan?

  When that guy disappeared... which is Gilbert? This is the serial killer one?

• 2:14:58Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:14:59Joe Rogan?

  Okay. The guy that you said parked his car and went to the woods, and you think that he knew that he was gonna be taken?

• 2:15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:07Joe Rogan?

  What do you think happened to him when he went to the woods?

• 2:15:10Speaker 02

  I think somehow they had some extraction method. And who knows what that is. He was, he was wearing Bermuda shorts, flip flops. He wasn't somebody that was going for a hike. That was the other indicator. He was wearing like a Hawaiian shirt. Even the ranger said she thought that him playing the loud music.

• 2:15:31Joe Rogan?

  Was a signal?

• 2:15:32Speaker 02

  That was a signal for her to come over and acknowledge that he was there.

• 2:15:38Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so he planned his disappearance, maybe?

• 2:15:41Speaker 02

  Or he wanted her to see her there. See him there. That was the indicator.

• 2:15:46Joe Rogan?

  Do you ever wonder, like if you're losing your marbles studying all these different things? You know what I mean? Like you're going over so many different cases, there's so many kooky circumstances and different people disappearing that your, your whole perspective on this stuff gets a little weird?

• 2:16:02Speaker 02

  I would say so, except I wrote this up as just a standard, everyday missing person case.

• 2:16:09Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:16:10Speaker 02

  These weren't my beliefs, these were the beliefs of.

• 2:16:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:16:14Speaker 02

  The girlfriend and the mom. And I have to say that the FBI going to that house is completely outside the realm of anything normal.

• 2:16:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that's very bizarre. And also, taking the legal pad with the Arabic writing on it and the books.

• 2:16:27Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:16:28Joe Rogan?

  It's very weird. But I mean, who knows what that's all about? That seems to have something to do with the government. Whereas some of these things seem to have something to do with either extraterrestrials or interdimensional things or.

• 2:16:40Speaker 02

  Correct. A lot of weirdness in this world, David. I think our world is much more complex than we think.

• 2:16:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I would agree with you.

• 2:16:51Speaker 02

  Just like humanity. Everyone's, there's a lot of complex people.

• 2:16:56Joe Rogan?

  For sure, well, certainly the people that have access to this information, like the stuff that Dan Farah was talking about. Like, imagine the mind of a person. Let's assume that there are really extraterrestrial bodies somewhere. And let's assume that there are recovered crafts and that these people like Bob Lazar really have been back engineering. Don't you imagine being one of those people? One of this select group of people, a small amount, that have information that's completely different from what the rest of the world has about the reality in which we exist in. That we share this reality with things that have technology that is beyond our comprehension.

• 2:17:41Joe Rogan?

  They can do things that we can't even imagine. And that these people all know it's real and that they're holding on to this information. They don't think we can handle it.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  I mean, the radio shows I've been on and the people I've talked to have said the same thing about me and missing people. It's been a revelation that this many people are missing in our woods that are unaccounted for. And our government won't acknowledge it. Acknowledging it by releasing a list, releasing the documents. Why can't we see them?

• 2:18:14Joe Rogan?

  But you could attribute that to sheer incompetence. Like, the people that are running the parks and working for it, like, you know, you get bad investigators in all sorts of, I mean, you're a cop, you know about all that.

• 2:18:28Speaker 03

  According to this post from two years ago, Gil's mother thinks he might have disappeared to be a spy for the US government and is still alive. And their authorities say that's possible.

• 2:18:41Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:18:42Speaker 03

  He had a long history. I think he said he was an interrogator and knew six different languages, worked for the UN. It said when he went missing, he had survival skills from his military training. He was a paratrooper.

• 2:18:54Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 2:18:55Speaker 03

  And he just, he had a camera on him was apparently all he had.

• 2:18:58Joe Rogan?

  So they could have staged his disappearance so that they could position him somewhere else. People would think he's dead, you give him a totally new identity, and now he's working undercover somewhere.

• 2:19:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, I would imagine that's possible. I would imagine, like, if you wanted someone to work for you and you say, you know, this person's going to work undercover in some top-secret mission, okay, but you've got to disappear. You've got to disappear from regular life so that we can give you this new identity. We can't just have, you know, your friends looking for you. We have to move you to some other new part of the world.

• 2:19:34Speaker 02

  So, Joe, if you were me and you were sitting across from his mom, that's really something vile, I think, to do to your parent.

• 2:19:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure. Horrific.

• 2:19:43Speaker 02

  She was, she was a broken human.

• 2:19:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. No, that's terrible.

• 2:19:48Speaker 02

  And I asked her, I said, "There's a good chance Gilbert's somewhere in the world watching this. What do you want to say to him?" She said, "Gilbert, just please come home." She was like an 88-year-old woman then.

• 2:20:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:03Speaker 02

  No, that's brutal. And...

• 2:20:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a very different thing we're talking about. That's not a fun thing.

• 2:20:08Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:20:09Joe Rogan?

  The fun thing's the alien stuff.

• 2:20:10Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 2:20:11Joe Rogan?

  That's the fun stuff.

• 2:20:12Speaker 02

  I'm sorry. I got off track there.

• 2:20:16Joe Rogan?

  No, but I mean, look, I get it, because you're dealing with like a wide swath, like a bunch of different kinds of encounters and different things. You know? Um, the, those, yeah, that's dark.

• 2:20:27Speaker 02

  So, do you know much about Mount Rainier?

• 2:20:29Joe Rogan?

  Not much, no.

• 2:20:30Speaker 02

  So, do you know that the, the original UFO period of time started with a UFO sighting?

• 2:20:38Joe Rogan?

  Kenneth Arnold.

• 2:20:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:20:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:39Speaker 02

  So, do you know that when Arnold, do you know what Arnold was doing when he was flying around?

• 2:20:45Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:20:46Speaker 02

  So, six months prior to that, three transports, marine transports, were flying from El Toro Marine Base into Seattle.

• 2:20:56Speaker 02

  Boom, one, one after the other. They hit bad weather. One of those planes came around and they lost it.

• 2:21:05Speaker 02

  Arnold, there was like a huge reward if he could find it. Arnold was flying by Rainier, looking at the mountain, trying to see if he could find it, and these things went by. Long story short, months later, they found the transport had crashed into the side of Rainier.

• 2:21:24Speaker 02

  First of all, do you know that the Marines never took one body off of there?

• 2:21:30Joe Rogan?

  Did they recover the vehicle, the, the craft?

• 2:21:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:21:33Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:21:34Speaker 02

  They didn't recover anything.

• 2:21:35Joe Rogan?

  They just left it there?

• 2:21:36Speaker 02

  They left it there.

• 2:21:37Joe Rogan?

  Was it because the extraction's too difficult?

• 2:21:39Speaker 02

  That's what they said.

• 2:21:41Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that possible?

• 2:21:42Speaker 02

  I guess so.

• 2:21:43Joe Rogan?

  I mean, if it's not traversable, if they can't get in there?

• 2:21:46Speaker 02

  But they did get in there.

• 2:21:47Joe Rogan?

  They did?

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  They did. They said they got in there, they saw bodies, but it was too dangerous to remove any, and they left them all on the side of the mountain. So, that's the reason that Arnold was there. A lot of people don't know that.

• 2:22:00Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  And when he saw those things fly by him at an extraordinary pace, he said, hey, that's, that's nothing that, no planes we have. And there were multiple ones he saw go by.

• 2:22:13Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:22:14Speaker 02

  Now, since that time, Mount Baker and Mount Rainier have had dozens of UFO sightings. And if you look at the dispersion of people who have disappeared on Rainier, it's, most of them aren't way up here on the mountain. They're down here at the bottom. And when we put that in the movie, that, people couldn't believe how many people there are, missing.

• 2:22:40Joe Rogan?

  How many people?

• 2:22:41Speaker 02

  There's probably at least fifteen that have never been found, and it makes no sense.

• 2:22:47Joe Rogan?

  And are they all hikers, or what?

• 2:22:50Speaker 02

  Hikers, photographers. Uh, one kid worked for Alaska Airlines, went into the woods, like, every week, because he lived near Rainier. And on his days off, he took, uh, pictures of the mountain and panorama shots. And some of his photos actually made it into the National Park Headquarters, they're that good. He went up to take pictures one day, he has a tripod, real nice camera, he disappears. They searched for him for ten days, bringing canines, everything. They can't find anything of him. Now, this is one of those cases where, let's say there was bear predation. Yeah, there may be nothing left of him, but the tripod will be there forever, the camera's there forever, his boots, his belt, but they

• 2:23:35Speaker 02

  never found anything. There was a, uh, medical doctor that disappeared just recently, within the last couple of years, hiking in that same area, a giant loop backpacking.

• 2:23:49Speaker 02

  I think he was 34 years old, absolute genius guy. Came from UC Berkeley, just recently moved up to Seattle, took a new job, went on a backpacking loop there. He disappeared. Never found nothing. But it's repeatedly this big search, find nothing, no tracks, no scent trail, no evidence of them being there.

• 2:24:12Joe Rogan?

  In the same area where there's dozens of sightings?

• 2:24:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:24:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, if you wanted to get abducted, that's the place to go, if you really want to find out what's going on. Have you ever thought about, have you ever seen anything yourself?

• 2:24:27Speaker 02

  As far as what?

• 2:24:29Joe Rogan?

  As far as like something that looks like it's from another planet.

• 2:24:31Speaker 02

  Oh, we've seen orbs and UFOs many times.

• 2:24:35Joe Rogan?

  Many times?

• 2:24:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:24:37Joe Rogan?

  Have you taken photos of them or anything?

• 2:24:38Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, somehow.

• 2:24:40Joe Rogan?

  You got good ones?

• 2:24:41Speaker 02

  Uh, there's a lot of really good orb photos out there.

• 2:24:45Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  And so that's not unusual. I think the, after what I've seen, after I've made five documentaries now, I've seen 12 and 14 and 15 year olds do things with special effects that if you watched it on film.

• 2:25:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:06Speaker 02

  You would know if it was real or not.

• 2:25:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, certainly today.

• 2:25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:09Joe Rogan?

  Today, I mean, all bets are off. You really can't tell what's real and what's not real.

• 2:25:13Speaker 02

  That's why somebody who sends me a Bigfoot photo or UFO, I don't even watch it because you can't tell what's real anymore.

• 2:25:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:25:22Speaker 02

  You'd have to go all the way back for me to film, actual film, and then I'll look at it.

• 2:25:29Joe Rogan?

  Well, David, thank you very much for being here. It's certainly a very interesting subject. I can't imagine what your brain is like, having studied this for all these many years. You've got a very weird version of the world that we live in because you've been inundated by this stuff for decades. But I think there's something there. I don't know what it is. Do you?

• 2:25:54Speaker 02

  I'll have to wait for that for maybe round two, huh?

• 2:25:56Joe Rogan?

  Okay, round two. Well, thank you very much.

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  Thanks, Joe.

• 2:25:59Joe Rogan?

  Tell everybody where they can find your work, where they can watch your documentaries and...

• 2:26:04Speaker 02

  My two most recent movies, Missing 411, National Parks, Washington State is on Amazon. American Sasquatch, Man, Myth or Monster, is on Amazon. And then you can watch my three movies for free on Tubi. And that is Missing 411, that's the number one, Missing 411: The Hunted, and Missing 411: The UFO Connection. And my website is missing411.com, and it has all my books.

• 2:26:29Joe Rogan?

  All right.

• 2:26:30Speaker 02

  Thank you very much. Thank you, Joe.

• 2:26:31Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure.

• 2:26:32Speaker 02

  Bye.

• 2:26:32Joe Rogan?

  Bye, everybody.