Jameela Jamil: REVEALS the TRUTH about FAME, Cancel Culture & Learning to LOVE Yourself

Today we have a truly remarkable guest, Jameela Jamil, who is not only a talented actress but also a passionate advocate for self-love, body positivity, and mental health. Stay tuned for this powerful conversation on finding self-love and how to channel your own voice to be a force for positive change in the world! In 2018, Jameela launched a movement and allyship platform called I Weigh—a platform and community of change makers who come together to share ideas, experiences and ultimately mobilize activism; exploring social issues that stem from mental health to climate change to the representation of marginalized groups. http://iweighcommunity.com/In this episode you will learn,The key principles behind cultivating self-love and body positivity, as Jameela Jamil shares her personal journey and insights. Effective strategies for harnessing your own voice and using it as a powerful tool for promoting positive change in your life and the world. Valuable insights into the importance of mental health and how to prioritize it in your daily life, drawing inspiration from Jameela's advocacy. The role of authenticity in personal growth and learn how embracing your true self can lead to a more fulfilling and purpose-driven life. Real-life stories and experiences from Jameela Jamil that illustrate the transformative power of self-love and self-acceptance, inspiring you to embark on your own journey towards self-discovery and empowerment. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1499For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes on Radical Self Love & Acceptance:Jason Derulo – https://link.chtbl.com/1460-podKaramo Brown – https://link.chtbl.com/1457-podPokimane – https://link.chtbl.com/1443-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you're never going to be enough. Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Bestseller back-to-back weeks. And I'm so excited to hear from so many of you who've bought the book, who've read it and finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life. 10 years ago, at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life, and a book I'm glad

• 0:46Lewis Howes?

  I have today for myself. Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now, so you can get it on audiobook as well. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

• 1:10Speaker 01

  We are all suffering under the same people, and we need to come together in this fight. Otherwise, nothing's going to change for anyone, and people are just going to keep on dying. And if we don't believe in change, and if we do not move for actual change, then nothing's going to happen. We are not going to open or change anyone's mind, and we are not going to secure our freedoms.

• 1:29Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:54Lewis Howes?

  Welcome back everyone to the School of Greatness. Very excited about our guest. We have the inspiring Jamila Jamil in the house. Thank you so much for coming back. Very excited about this. You've given me a jolt of energy just seeing you. It's been a few years since I've seen you. We were talking about how I met you, I think around eight to 10 years ago. When both of us were kind of just starting in our own journeys. You've exploded on TV and multiple podcasts and you know, movies and all these different things. You continue to explode.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  As have you.

• 2:24Lewis Howes?

  In a, in a, in a positive way, but you've also gone through a number of different journeys. Since when I first met you and you know, you just came off of like a BBC radio show to now being a star on TV show, hosting shows, hosting podcasts. To being all four.

• 2:45Lewis Howes?

  Advocacy in a number of ways and communicating a certain way to, you know, talking about body shaming and mental health to now kind of. Transitioning into doing things in a different way. And it's been interesting and inspiring. It's funny at times and unique to see how you've evolved, how you communicate, how you create content. The success you've made and everything, but when we were just talking off camera, you were talking about how there's some. Big transitions and changes that are happening, it sounds like. What is the biggest thing that has changed for you in the last few years?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  I think in the last few years, especially during the pandemic, I. Watched the way that, you know, like I'm a liberal and I exist within social justice circles and I have been. A loud. Member of those circles. Can I swear on this?

• 3:35Lewis Howes?

  Sure, yeah. Loud, loud meaning what? Like on social media?

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, loud, direct, forceful, sometimes with a pitchfork in hand, especially back in like 2018. And.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I have noticed our community move towards a place that doesn't resonate with me at all. And I feel as though I have some sort of responsibility as to being a part of the wave that created this. But it feels like Frankenstein, where I had no idea what it was going to become. I thought we were fighting for justice. I thought we were boycotting the bad guy and that we were all in this together. And what I have seen is both our groups picking each other apart, not really dealing with much bigger issues. Because we're so busy holding each other to these outrageously unattainable standards of moral perfection. Uh, but also it's become so punitive and for a group that, that

• 4:33Speaker 01

  talks so much about inclusivity and diversity, we don't have a lot of inclusion or diversity of thought anymore. And that's just not what I want, it's not what I signed up for, and it's not my way of being like, this is me leaving the liberals. I will always stand for those same values. But the way in which we're going about things is, is harmful and it's not gonna change anything. And if we don't believe in change and if we do not move for actual change, and incremental change, rather than always striving for immediate perfection, then nothing's going to happen. We are not going to open or change anyone's mind, and we are not going to secure our freedoms. And we are seeing in broad daylight, more and more rights being taken away

• 5:17Speaker 01

  as we continue to ostracize the people that we most need to reach across to. And I have not always done the best job in reaching across to those people, but for the past few years, I have been imperfectly working towards, you know, chiseling down my very sharp tongue and trying to become more nonviolent in my communication, so that

• 5:40Speaker 01

  We can all come together because we have so much more in common than we have, than we have in differences and and most of our differences come from places of fear or come from places of completely different information we're receiving. All of our opinions are just a product of the information that we receive. And we know now that social media algorithms are manipulating our feeds to see more of what we're already, what we've even just looked on, just out of curiosity, has now become our full feed. And so we're seeing two completely different versions of the same events, of the same people, of the same actions. And then, because we don't realise that we're seeing two opposing sides of each story, we think the other group's stupid.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  And it's so sad because most of us are facing the main things, like the the problems with climate, which I know some people don't believe in, but it's getting hot as a radical world. So something's happening.

• 6:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  We are seeing the housing crisis, the homelessness crisis, the healthcare crisis in this country, the food crisis, the big sugar crisis. Like, we have all of these terrible, we have this terrible minority of people who get to control the masses and who none of us come together and organise against and hold accountable because we're all so busy staring at and fighting each other. And that feels awfully convenient and quite scary because that means the actual bad guy who's got none of our best interests, whether you are right, left, independent, whatever, we are all suffering under the same people and we need to come together in this fight. Otherwise, nothing's going to change for anyone and people are just going to keep on dying and getting sick and becoming unhappier and suicides are going to continue to rise.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Like, this is not my paranoia. We have hard statistics that prove that this country is falling apart. And I'm not like one to, I don't like the rise and just on America because I've been around the world and I've seen that there's a lot of things that they do wrong and they're not perfect, but there's also a lot of things that they do right, a lot of freedoms that people have here that they don't have in many countries around the world. A lot more opportunity here than there is anywhere. So I don't think on America is the right way forward. I think it's just about identifying, why is everyone so angry and so sad? And how do we figure out what we have in common here?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Come together and work this out as a, as a nation.

• 8:11Lewis Howes?

  This is inspiring. I didn't.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  You just gave me a coffee, so I'm on one.

• 8:15Lewis Howes?

  I didn't expect this incredibly inspiring opening dialogue, but that was, that was amazing. And I'm curious, you just said there's a lot of people are angry. Why do you think you were so angry four or five years ago when you were marching with a pitchfork in certain areas? And using a sharp tongue like you mentioned in certain ways and fighting in a certain style. Why were you so angry? And also, why do you think so many people are angry today?

• 8:43Speaker 01

  I think first of all, women weren't really given the mic until about 2016, right? We, our problems were dismissed or laughed at and we were treated appallingly in the most mainstream of arenas. And so in 2015, 2016, Me Too happened and suddenly the mic was pointed at those of us who were willing to speak. And it was like, what do you have to say? Now, we didn't have any practice. We hadn't been doing this. We weren't all like orators, you know what I mean? Like I was a Billboard 100 DJ, radio DJ, so just count down pop songs. And now I was being asked for my opinion on huge social, political infrastructures.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  And it felt incredibly callous to disregard that opportunity. If I knew that I had the strength and at least some of the words to speak. But we were, we were not, it's not even out of practice. This had never happened before. And so I think we were frustrated, we were impatient, we were exhausted, we were angry. We had all like generations of stored up anger, not just for ourselves, our mothers, our grandmothers and our, you know, great grandmothers. This has just gone on for so long. And so it just all came out at once. And it all came out in a place of rage. And I think you see it with a lot of minorities who speak out. When they start out, start speaking out, it's with so much aggression and passion because they've been waiting for such a long time to speak.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  But it doesn't all come out in the most constructive way at first because we're only human. And so we're fallible and we're not perfect at communicating ourselves. We don't have training for this. I was never taught how to speak on these massive issues. I left school at sixteen. I just knew that the one thing I had that a lot of my peers didn't have is a complete disregard for other people to like me.

• 10:31Lewis Howes?

  You didn't care if people liked you?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Didn't give a

• 10:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Still don't give a

• 10:34Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Not interested in being popular. I was so unpopular at school that it sort of set me up for a life of of of not being popular and I'm amazed I have as many lovely, wonderful friends as I have now. But outside of those friends, I have no interest in pleasing people or or making them like me or being popular or uh being approved of or even being believed.

• 10:54Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 10:55Speaker 01

  I have no interest. I don't know these people. And so it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what I think of them. It doesn't affect their lives. It doesn't have to affect my life as to what they think of me. And so because I knew that I was for some reason neurologically separated from that. I I had this kind of superpower to be able to take all the bullets

• 11:19Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  that a lot of other people can't take. Because we are socialized, especially as women, especially as brown women, to be obedient and to be liked and for someone to want to marry us one day.

• 11:32Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  And for whatever reason, for whatever I'm missing socially, whatever I'm socially inept at, whatever cues I can't read or disregard. It meant that I I just felt ready. I felt ready for the fight. I wasn't ready for the fight.

• 11:47Lewis Howes?

  You were ready.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  Because I didn't know what this was going to become. I didn't think anyone was going to listen to me when I started speaking. I didn't think I was going to go viral. This wasn't planned. I was advised by everyone not to say anything at all whatsoever because it would hurt my career. And it certainly did at times.

• 12:02Lewis Howes?

  It did?

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. I'm fine now, but it It just took off and by the time I first met you, not first met you, and by the time I first came on this podcast, it was, I think it was like twenty nineteen. I was flying at a height, at an altitude that I could barely breathe at, right? Where I'd been leveraged by the industry, put on this pedestal that I knew was a trapdoor. And I was being hyperbolized and everyone was, you know, like world leaders were coming up to me all like getting my number and communicating and trying to get me across all their different causes. I was speaking at the UN, I was on every single podcast, I was on every single magazine cover. Time Magazine named me as one of the twenty five most influential people. I was on the cover of British Vogue alongside Greta Thunberg and Jane Fonda.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  I didn't know what the fuck was going on. And people were like, she's the feminist hero we need. And as soon as that came out, I was like,

• 13:00Speaker 01

  that's it? This is, that's the end? Like, it's the, that moment you get, that sickening feeling in your stomach before, when you're at the top of the roller coaster, before you just go all the way down and you know you're about to just plummet. And I think the tension that I had when I would bump into you or when I was on your podcast, when I was on anyone's podcast is because I had this defensiveness and knowing that this, this was gonna blow up in my face.

• 13:27Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  And I wasn't congratulating myself. I was constantly saying from the beginning, like, I'm a feminist in progress. I left school at Ziegler School. Don't listen to me about everything. I'm just figuring this out. I want to be a vessel of learning publicly. But the headlines would write so confidently about me that people mistook that for my confidence. As if I think I'm the feminist hero the world needs.

• 13:50Lewis Howes?

  People put you on a pedestal as

• 13:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's always a trapdoor and it is a well-oiled system of specifically putting women on that kind of pedestal. So high up that it's an unsurvivable fall a lot of the time. And god, do we love to watch a woman fall. My god, do we enjoy the like schadenfreude, however you pronounce that word, like of, of watching a woman who has been presented as being really full of herself and really like proud of herself and very opinionated, watching her be humbled. God, we love, I would love to understand the sociological or anthropological reasoning behind why as a society, women, very much so included. Live to watch the humbling of a woman.

• 14:34Lewis Howes?

  Other women.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Other women, yeah.

• 14:37Lewis Howes?

  Why do women love to watch other women who are successful fall rather than watch them rise?

• 14:44Speaker 01

  I don't think it's all women. I just think it includes women. I love to watch a woman rise. I live for it. But I don't see other women as my competition. I see myself as completely unique. I still think I'm a piece of but I am a unique piece of I am my own piece of no one can be a piece of like me. And that's very comforting. But I don't see us in in lanes. I just see us as individual like stars. You know, there's just infinite room for all of us.

• 15:12Lewis Howes?

  I like that. A lot of women competitive, most women or?

• 15:15Speaker 01

  I can't say for most women, but I would say that most women have at some point in their formative years been it's been ingrained in them to see other women as competition.

• 15:22Lewis Howes?

  Really? Why?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, for marriage, for the attention of the opposing gender, or we've been taught that there's a finite amount of space in the workplace. Or a finite amount of space in the social circle. It's like, well, there can only be one. You see it when there's like one amazing female rapper and then another female rapper rises up. And the public and the media are massively instrumental in trying to turn these two women against each other, pit these two women against each other. We don't do it with male rappers in the same way. We maybe did at the very beginning when there was more of a scarcity. But we have so many extraordinary talented women who can do this same thing in very different ways. And we insist on trying to get them to rip each other down so that we don't have to.

• 16:04Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  But it's because we've created a scarcity mindset that so many women have that there's not enough space and there is enough space and it's so vital that we recognize this finally so that we stop being part of tearing each other down because the world is hard enough for us. We do not need to make it harder for each other. And it doesn't mean we can't criticize each other. I've criticized women. I'm very open to being criticized myself. It's just about making sure that when we're criticizing, we're doing it actually constructively. And and not from a place of I I need you to be lower than me for me to feel taller than you.

• 16:39Lewis Howes?

  When did you realize your approach? And, you know, because you mentioned, once they put you on the cover of everything and once they said you're the, you know, the next this and the greatest that. It sounds like you realize, oh, it can only go down from here at some point.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 16:54Lewis Howes?

  Or there's.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  I knew it was like a ticking time bomb before. Everything started to go up and.

• 17:00Lewis Howes?

  When you put someone on a pedestal, what happens?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, what happens is normally very powerful people within media start orchestrating that person's demise.

• 17:10Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 17:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we saw it with like Anne Hathaway, Jennifer Lawrence, Princess Diana, Meghan Markle, all these different people. It's like it's a it's a well orchestrated, a well oiled machine of orchestrated attack.

• 17:22Lewis Howes?

  They put them up there, though.

• 17:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:24Lewis Howes?

  And then they take them down.

• 17:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jennifer Lawrence, everyone was like, oh, she's so relatable. She's so relatable. And then after a while, the same exact behavior was, why is she trying to be so relatable all the time? This feels very forced. I think she faked falling over. Let's bring her down. She's a bit arrogant. She's gotten a bit ahead of herself. This was like a twenty two year old, twenty three year old woman, barely out of her teens. It was really mad to watch. Same thing with Anne Hathaway. She was just enjoying.

• 17:48Lewis Howes?

  Life.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Life and enjoying having some success and she, you know, had an Oscar speech that seemed to turn people against her and make them feel completely comfortable, completely dehumanizing her. But anyway, listen, I think I'm slightly different to these women in that I've been poking the hornet's nest.

• 18:04Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Straight out the gate.

• 18:05Lewis Howes?

  They weren't doing that from the beginning.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  They were much more innocent bystanders than I was.

• 18:08Lewis Howes?

  You were like, ah.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  I made it very easy for everyone because because I have a loose opinion.

• 18:14Lewis Howes?

  You made it easy for everyone, but also at the same time.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Doesn't justify it, but.

• 18:17Lewis Howes?

  Right. But also at the same time, people weren't as willing to communicate back because they didn't want to be looked at as aggressive or whatever, maybe also.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 18:27Lewis Howes?

  I think people, well, some people were willing to like speak back, but then other people were like, okay, I can't say anything because then I'm going to get in trouble if they had a separate opinion from you, right?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  No, people would debate with me and argue with me all the time. Yeah. Yeah, we just got into very toothy debates where both of us spoke to each other in a bad way.

• 18:45Lewis Howes?

  Oh, really?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And and my problem is the fact that I, listen, I I don't believe in always being the bigger person. I believe sometimes in being the smaller person.

• 18:54Lewis Howes?

  Ah.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Because I'm a very petty woman.

• 18:56Lewis Howes?

  Be the last one to say something?

• 18:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I will fight you to death in the gutter, but I regret. I regret returning the behaviour of some of the people who treated me badly.

• 19:08Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  I regret it immensely. Like, I was spoken to in a very inhumane and disgusting way by certain men with big platforms. And I regret giving in to the calm desire

• 19:20Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  to own them and humiliate them back publicly.

• 19:26Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  And it's a natural desire because it doesn't feel fair to let someone get away with that kind of behaviour. But ultimately, when you resort to their same behaviour and and sometimes you use even foul language, which I'm prone to do because I'm English, I'm very rude, um, all you do is you start to look as bad as them. And you start to look as ungracious and ill-educated as they do. And you look like you don't have a better answer. And I did have a better answer. I was just giving in to a very like base part of myself. Just my little cave woman inside. You know, where I just wanted to bludgeon them over the head.

• 20:08Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  But but actually, there were smarter and better ways to reason with those people because it wasn't really about those people. It was about the people who were watching this conversation between two large media figures. And it's about how do I appeal to the people who follow that person?

• 20:23Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 20:24Speaker 01

  It's not going to be by ridiculing him because they follow him. So if I ridicule him, they consider me ridiculing them.

• 20:31Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 20:32Speaker 01

  And I just, I wasn't ready. I didn't know any of this was coming. I couldn't. It's so hard to recognise this in the moment. It's so hard to zoom out. No one tells you to. No, like every, we were in such a culture of like, yeah, get him on both sides. You know, and the audience, it became like a gladiator ring, like Twitter became like a gladiator ring. And I, I just didn't, I didn't understand what I was participating in. And the pandemic kind of brought a stillness. I mean, it brought mania online, but it brought me a stillness to kind of step back and recognise that like.

• 21:09Speaker 01

  This, this is the way that people are talking to each other now. And the lack of humanity with which we are treating each other in a time where we should have ultimate humanity, because we're in a global crisis, is terrifying. And I don't wanna be a part of, of this divide. Because I can see what kind of horror we are leading up to with an election. And regardless of who you support politically, if you're watching this, it doesn't change the fact that the time leading up to that election and the time around that election are going to be societally fraught. And people are gonna be fighting and spitting each other in the streets. It's gonna become violent and scary.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  That's not a society any of us want, so we all have a social responsibility right now to look at that and go, how do we all create a more peaceful time? Because the person with different opinions or political beliefs or political backgrounds is not necessarily always your enemy. They're just afraid. They've been, on whatever side, felt so much misinformation and, and so much bias and so much rhetoric. To see you, whoever you are, as the enemy. They're just responding to a kind of fight or flight. We're not each other's enemy. There's obviously the odd outlier who's just evil and just wants to hurt other people. But those are the loud, tiny minority of human beings.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Most of us just wanna be safe, fed, we want healthcare, we want our loved ones to be okay, and we don't wanna be lonely. But we have never been lonelier. As a society, as a global society, people have never been lonelier. These are the scariest loneliness statistics, and I think loneliness has now been classed as one of the biggest killers in the world, like more so even than I think some things do with like alcohol and cigarettes. Loneliness is a killer. So of course we're lonely, because we don't feel like we can be our true selves. We don't feel like we can ask important questions, we don't feel like we can. Speak openly. We don't feel like we can be friends with people who have opposing opinions. We don't feel like we can talk to colleagues who have opposing opinions.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  We don't feel like we can talk to our grandmother who was raised in a completely different generation.

• 23:23Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 23:24Speaker 01

  Like, this is not at all what I wanted. I don't want this to be the world that my friends' children grow up in. And so I have a responsibility now to, and I've been doing this for a few years on my podcast. It's encouraging my audience who probably followed me for the fact that I'm this warrior prince.

• 23:43Lewis Howes?

  Right. Now you've got to persuade them differently.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Encourage them towards grace.

• 23:47Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Understanding and not disposing of each other as fast as they are.

• 23:54Lewis Howes?

  That's, I mean, I was telling you before, we were talking about this, that this is inspiring me, hearing you say this. Because I'm all for justice, fairness, you know, people being heard and communicating effectively and making sure that we're improving everywhere. I'm all for it. But it's sometimes when it's communicated in a way that is attacking. I'm like, I don't know if someone has ever screamed at me and I've been able to listen to them. From football coaches to parents to ex-girlfriends. I don't know if I've ever been able to sit there calmly and say, I hear you. And I'm really, I'm willing to listen more and I want to make a change. It's always like, I need to protect myself. I need to defend myself.

• 24:38Lewis Howes?

  You're crazy, or whatever I was feeling at the time of something coming at me, or feeling guilty, shamed and not enough when I'm being yelled at, from my perspective.

• 24:47Lewis Howes?

  And I just don't know how that's going to help people feel included in a conversation when they're getting yelled at or made wrong.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  I mean, from the very beginning of my advocacy, I always was against like the frivolity of cancel culture in that I always said that. We can't demotivate people from improving by telling them they can never come back.

• 25:06Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  That I was consistent on from the start. I was never trying to cancel anyone. I was just trying to tell people to stop doing what they were doing. But I just did it with like incredibly bad language.

• 25:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  But I never intended for anyone to have everything taken away from them, apart from probably Harvey Weinstein, who can go himself. But but everyone else who just said the wrong thing or thought the wrong thing, or you know, went against group think. Those are the people that I was just like, let's hear them out. And I hope that they can come back better and stronger and they can atone. And then we re-welcome them back. Otherwise, how do you motivate anyone to change? Why would we?

• 25:39Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Why would we? Like, we're all, like, we haven't evolved that much in the last 2000 years. We still can't tell the difference between a mean tweet and a saber-toothed tiger. Like, we aren't these like utopian moral beings who can just keep taking endless amounts of lashings with no hope of return and keep doing the work. The work is hard.

• 26:00Lewis Howes?

  It is.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  Whatever it is that makes you an embittered or angry or fearful person is probably some sort of trauma, right? I've been an before, and that wasn't for no reason. That didn't come out of nowhere. I was abused. I didn't deal with my abuse. I took my abuse out on the wrong target. That's most of us.

• 26:20Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  And I think because I've also been a troll and I've been an and I've been a misogynist in the past, because I've watched my own transition. I have such belief in people because I'm such a not extraordinary person. So if I can change, I really believe in people.

• 26:39Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  And I feel as though on the left and amongst liberals and in social justice, hope and belief in people is dying.

• 26:47Lewis Howes?

  Wow, really?

• 26:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  What is the left?

• 26:50Speaker 01

  And that's why we disregard people and dispose of them because they're just like, they're never gonna change. And that comes from, by the way, just being disappointed again and again and again. I'm not blaming them for that, but that's not gonna get us anywhere, and it's not true. What is the point of activism, which is the work of change? If you don't think people or systems can actually change? And they can't change with only ostracization and bullying and humiliation.

• 27:18Lewis Howes?

  And canceling.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  And yeah, I mean, that's a big part of what ostracization is, what ostracization is. Like, canceling has got so many different iterations as to what it is for so many people. People go, oh, Louis CK is not canceled. He's still selling out Madison Square Gardens. Clementine Morgan talks a lot about this, like what cancelled culture actually is, which is like they're taking everything away from someone, including the fact that their own friends and family and colleagues decide to distance themselves from that person. They become completely out. It's like putting a person in kind of social solitary confinement, which is the cruelest thing you can do to someone. Much crueler than taking away their awards. It's a social contagion. And I've never learned from being screamed at. I've never learned from being bullied or ostracized. I I might be fear mongered into changing the way I

• 28:04Speaker 01

  act, but it doesn't change my heart.

• 28:06Lewis Howes?

  No. If anything, it might make you more upset and and

• 28:09Speaker 01

  Maybe it might. Yeah, if I get dehumanized.

• 28:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. No one accepts me or is willing to listen to me, then screw the world.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like we see that with a lot of people. It's like we see that with people who go into prison and come out more violent and more dangerous. It's like you dehumanize people. Then what is their motivation to become more humane? Like, where are they supposed to be getting that from? You can't just like withdraw, withdraw, withdraw and never deposit any grace, never deposit any humanity and expect that person to change.

• 28:37Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I think I I myself have been ostracized and, you know, like kind of after the top of the roller coaster came crashing down in in like 2020 with a bunch of just nonsense that was said about me. Like, I knew that I was gonna probably get cancelled for something that I would say, because I I, you know, say the wrong things sometimes and I allow space for my infallibility. What I didn't expect is that things that weren't true would be years to take me down.

• 29:07Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's how it always is. That's how it always is.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  That's what tends to happen. That is what tends to happen.

• 29:12Lewis Howes?

  Talk about the facts and bring me down with that.

• 29:14Speaker 01

  But I was going after like big industries. I was going after the diet industry and the diet industry funds the media industry. And I was going after the media. I was going after like huge figures of the media. So it was bound to be that this like coordinated effort would just come at me all at once. And it's not to say that I had not made mistakes. It's not to say I hadn't left myself open to criticism because I had and I welcome it. But the things were so egregious that I was like, wow. You just can't kill it, kill women anymore. We used to be able to just kill them when they were annoying or a problem. So now you just have to kill their credibility. You have to kill their reputation. You have to overexpose them. You have to make people irritated with them. Two people disagree with their tweet. You call it a backlash and headline.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Even though the mul- like a multitude of people, the majority of people are agreeing with them. Being inside of that swirling media cancellation mess was fascinating. So I was like, this is how it works. And after that, I couldn't unsee it. And then I started to look back at all these women who'd gone through the same thing. And I was like, it did all happen at once, out of nowhere. And so now I feel very protective over those women, but, but also.

• 30:24Lewis Howes?

  So what was the moment then?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Again, being screamed at by people didn't make me feel more empathetic.

• 30:30Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  It didn't make me feel like I wanted to help more. It made me want to disappear and kill myself.

• 30:35Lewis Howes?

  Interesting. This is when?

• 30:36Speaker 01

  This was twenty twenty.

• 30:38Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wanted to kill myself.

• 30:40Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  I had to be put on medications that I wouldn't kill myself. It was very serious. I had a six month nervous breakdown after that. And I was like, oh, I don't want to be responsible for making anyone else feel like this. Not that I'd ever tried, because I was not pro cancel culture, but I definitely called people out publicly. In ways that sometimes I still do and I'm working on it.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  But because I want to find a balance between holding very powerful people accountable, but also not. So just taking a on their door.

• 31:11Lewis Howes?

  Right, right. Not just attacking and creating.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  I want to do it in a more intelligent.

• 31:13Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  And, and thoughtful and relatable way. But going through all of that, realizing that like, this is not how we teach anyone anything.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  And just the mess and seeing how many of the people that were enjoying my downfall were Nivel's and were my own, and were the very people that I'd been fighting for and were women.

• 31:35Lewis Howes?

  They were enjoying watching you fall.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and participating in it, participating in it perpetuated on social media.

• 31:41Lewis Howes?

  Behind the scenes with friends or?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Because I think like, I think I probably wasn't adhering to the social contract because I am opinionated. I have an opinion on everything, so do most of us. I didn't understand, hey, don't give your opinion all the time about everything. I just don't want you chatting. But I've never understood my position. I've never understood, like fame happened so fast for me, both times it happened in like England and the US that you can't grasp it. You're just in your house. I'm not a Jonas Brother going out and like people are chasing me down the street. I just feel like me, I still live with my flatmates who I've known since I was eighteen. You know, so I I couldn't understand that I'm, I couldn't really understand that my position has changed. Stop just chatting to everyone as if you can. Cause everything you say becomes a headline.

• 32:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  I just didn't realize and then by the time I did, it was too late.

• 32:30Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  And it is what it is, but now I've overcome the trauma of that and now I I feel very grateful for it. Because it has given me a clarity that and the pandemic and watching the horror of the way that everyone behaved on all political sides. Has given me real motivation to now spend the rest of my life. Working on bringing people back together.

• 32:57Lewis Howes?

  Wow. This is inspiring.

• 33:02Lewis Howes?

  I'm laughing because I just wasn't sure where you were at in your life personally, but to hear this really inspires me. And what sounds to me and what.

• 33:12Lewis Howes?

  I'm hearing you say is for many years. You were calling people out on.

• 33:19Speaker 01

  Out and in.

• 33:20Lewis Howes?

  Out and in, you were, you were, you were speaking out about certain people and now what I'm hearing is, what I'm hearing you say. You're trying to call people up. To something greater of what's possible for them in a more thoughtful.

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Calling people up and calling people together.

• 33:34Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  It's like we are struggling with so much bigger than the stuff that we're fighting about right now. It is happening imminently. The healthcare crisis is imminent, the homelessness crisis is, it's here. It's arrived. We're fighting about things that might happen ten, twenty years from now. And we need to be talking about what's happening now, what's happening, what's going wrong with the water in this country, the hormones in the food, big ship, like all these different things. That are killing people now.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  I just want us to, I, I, I just want us to come together.

• 34:09Lewis Howes?

  You are aware of and involved in so many different causes and things around society. And there are probably a lot of people watching or listening who are angry about something in the world, whether it's in their own community or around

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Probably for a good reason.

• 34:22Lewis Howes?

  healthcare or around fairness, equality, reproductive rights, whatever it might be, financial inequality, all these different things. A lot of people are angry about something. And what I see is a lot of people who are angry about that thing want it to change now. Like you talked about, like it's got to change now, which is really hard for big things to change overnight. But how can people who are upset, frustrated, worn out, exhausted, and feel like it's just so unfair, certain elements of whatever system they're frustrated with? How can they, if you can only share one message with them on how to really be effective on making a change in the thing that matters to them most? What would you say to those individuals?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Well, the first thing you need to do is identify that that's a cultural pattern in our generation, right? We want a thousand channels. We want a thousand shows to be able to stream at the same time. We want to be able to have six hundred different people on a menu that we can swipe through who we're going to go on a date with tonight. We have Amazon Prime. It delivers today. We have, you know what I mean?

• 35:31Lewis Howes?

  Instant gratification.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  We don't do slow weight loss or weight gain anymore. It's like, where are the shortcuts? It's a generation taught to look for shortcuts, to look for a quick fix, to look for instant gratification. And so recognizing that as a cultural phenomenon that's never existed before, because pre-technology, we just didn't have access to it. I'm sure the inclination was there.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  It's never good for you. We have too much content. We are overstimulated. We're spending too much time on screens. We're seeing mental health issues. We have too many dating options, too many apps. People are lonelier than they've ever been. They're having less sex than they've ever had. The birth rate, I guess, is declining. Like, all kinds of things are going wrong from having too many options, too much convenience. Right? We are seeing people's health decline because of fast food. And so when we look at people losing weight with these extreme measures, be it pills, injections, like very, very severe diets that are unsustainable, five percent of which work, ninety five percent of which fail, like those aren't good for people. They can

• 36:36Speaker 01

  lead to eating disorders or heart problems, all kinds of different health issues if you're taking substances to speed up your weight loss. I was talking in, I was talking in the Senate like not long ago about the fact that in muscle build products that are predominantly targeting boys, in a lot of them, they're finding Viagra and heavy metals.

• 36:58Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  All just quick fix, quick fix, quick fix. There's no such thing as a quick fix. Nothing has ever been done at speed can ever work. It always causes mess, chaos and harm. So while I understand wanting anything fast, patience and discipline are two things that are no longer encouraged in our society. We don't even allow for human beings to grow and change anymore. We expect them to instantly be updated with all of the perfect opinions that are constantly changing all of the time. So we have to take a step back and look at the fact that we are a sick society.

• 37:37Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 37:38Speaker 01

  Mentally, physically, socially. And so, once we're realistic about the fact that the quick fix doesn't work, I think we're able to return to, okay, what does incremental change look like? The only kind of change that ever lasts.

• 37:55Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Incremental change.

• 37:57Lewis Howes?

  It's kind of slow change.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  It's slow change. It's slow bit by bit by bit by bit. And that allows you to have time to be careful. It allows you to have time to consider. It allows you to have time to change your mind.

• 38:08Lewis Howes?

  Strategize, test it out, see how this feels.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  My rise to fame way too fast. I had no idea what the fuck was going on. I felt like I was in the middle of a tornado. I didn't have time to look at myself or look at the way that I was coming across or look at the impact to the people that I most wanted to reach. I didn't want to reach the people who already agree with me. And now those are the only people that are probably listening to my podcast that I mean to be for everyone.

• 38:28Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  But I couldn't see it. It's too, absolutely too fast. Nothing fast ever works.

• 38:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Nothing good comes from it. So what does incremental change look like? Incremental change looks like starting to educate yourself.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  It involves listening to people's opinions who are opposed to you, which you're not supposed to do.

• 38:49Lewis Howes?

  Um, not just shutting them out.

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Nowadays, you're not even supposed to follow anyone that has a different opinion or who did something wrong.

• 38:54Lewis Howes?

  Cause then you'll be judged for following too.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Follow those people, follow those people to look and see.

• 39:00Lewis Howes?

  Read their stuff, watch their content.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Develop critical thinking skills as to why you disagree with them. Research, learn. When you have a family member who says something that you find egregious, that you disagree with, whatever political side you're on. Learn how to debate, learn how to oppose.

• 39:16Lewis Howes?

  Just run away and shame them and make them wrong.

• 39:18Speaker 01

  Give them the facts. Learn how to convince each other again, not just shut each other down and dispose of each other. Change the circle you're in. If we can all just focus on the circle we're in. And stop fighting with celebrities who we way over deified anyway, and stop fighting with, you know.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  Our great grandfather who isn't, you know.

• 39:39Lewis Howes?

  Did something in the war back in the day or whatever, yeah.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  Like, let's just, let's just work on our inner circle. And try to make an influence there. Change the way that we interact with others, cause that will change the way that person goes on to interact with someone else. And open up our scope of who we are.

• 39:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Willing to just listen to. Cause I sometimes wonder if the reason that both sides are so afraid to listen to each other is because they're worried they might be convinced. Or they're worried they might find out they were wrong.

• 40:10Lewis Howes?

  Ooh, then I like that.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  And whether or not that's true, that's not a good place to move from as a human being.

• 40:15Lewis Howes?

  Your beliefs are shaken, it shakes your identity.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and this is just it, right? So I was talking to this psychologist on, in DM on Instagram. In which she said that identity and opinion have become completely interlinked. She sees that a lot with the people who come into her office.

• 40:30Lewis Howes?

  Explain that more.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  So it means that like, you know, back in, back in our day. Um, we grew up not knowing anyone else's political ideology or what their parents represented or what their beliefs were about almost anything. We used to just have polite meals and then, you know what I mean, like arguments about like more trivial things. It was a simpler time. It wasn't necessarily a, a great time, but it was a simpler time. And we were able to acknowledge that if someone had an opinion we don't like, that's just their opinion that we don't like. And we had friends who might have been deemed. Problematic or different, but we kind of accepted that, well, that's just like a part of them I don't like, but I can see the rest of the individual. Now we can't see the rest of the individual anymore.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  The bit that we don't like tarnishes everything about them and erases their history of anything they did that was good.

• 41:18Lewis Howes?

  I thought I'm a wag.

• 41:19Speaker 01

  It's scary. It's scary. Like, we see this all the time with public figures. It's like someone can do so many great things. And then they make one mistake. And then we disregard everything they've ever done and we want to get rid of them without thinking like, oh. A lot of people might suffer if we completely get rid of that person because they're actually quite helpful. We used to be able to see when someone was more helpful than harmful. And see that we can just work on the bit that's harmful. But now we just throw everyone away. And so I think that is something that concerns me and I, and so when it comes to the, the identity and opinion. Is that identity and opinion is no longer a separate thing. Because of social media, identity and opinion have kind of like woven together. And now they kind of exist as one. So before when someone would say, oh, I disagree with your opinion.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  It just meant I disagree with your opinion, but now it means.

• 42:06Lewis Howes?

  We can still be friends.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  I disagree with you fundamentally. I disagree with who you are. And who you've become. And I'm defining you as this person. I'm freezing you in stone as this person forever.

• 42:18Lewis Howes?

  How long do you think this will go on for until people wake up and say, oh, I was doing this to other people? And now it's actually coming back to hurt me?

• 42:26Speaker 01

  It depends on how many of us with public figures work. To raise awareness and raise the alarm about this.

• 42:32Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  You know?

• 42:34Lewis Howes?

  Not many people in Hollywood are talking the way you're talking right now.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  It's because you're still congratulated by isolating and demonizing. That's why I went so, you know, that's why I popped off about the Met Gala. Cause I was like, hang on, hang on. This is an industry and this is an audience that, that really makes a big deal of not being able to separate an art from an artist.

• 42:54Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm. Well, they have been in the last four or five years, right? Yeah.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  The last seven years in particular, it's like, we can't separate the art from the artist. We're going to demonize and ostracize whoever we can. And whoever we want to and whoever we're just going to completely separate ourselves from and we're going to drop them and we're going to do this or the other.

• 43:10Lewis Howes?

  And what happened at the Met Gala?

• 43:11Speaker 01

  And the Met Gala is they threw a party for a bigot. Who was so cruel about fat people, who people claim to care about now, so cruel about immigrants, so awful about the Me Too movement, and you've got Me Too feminists and media that pushed the Me Too movement, celebrating this man at the highest honour, the biggest party of the year. And then you've got everyone online who loves cancelling people and who loves digging up people's tweets from when they were 12, applauding, la la la la la, it doesn't matter what he said, he's an icon. What are we doing? Pick one, how can we expect anyone to take us seriously if we are this hypocritical and this wishy washy? We've got to be consistent. I'm fine to separate the art from the artist.

• 43:53Speaker 01

  Because the longer I'm in this industry, the more I realise that they're all terrible.

• 43:59Lewis Howes?

  Who is?

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Like the greats, the greats.

• 44:02Lewis Howes?

  They've all got something.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  They've all done something.

• 44:05Lewis Howes?

  Sometimes.

• 44:06Speaker 01

  Hugely inappropriate, or awful, or they were horrible. So the only way you can enjoy art is almost to separate the art from the artist. And the longer you're around, the more you start to realise that, and the more that comes out after they've died. It is what it is. So what is it? Are we separating the art from the artist? Or are we not?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  We have to decide. I hate hypocrisy. Because it means that all the other things that we're doing that are good can't be taken seriously.

• 44:36Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  We open ourselves up for ridicule.

• 44:40Lewis Howes?

  The word that I keep hearing you talk about or insinuating is grace.

• 44:43Speaker 01

  Right, yeah.

• 44:44Lewis Howes?

  And it sounds like you've had grace for yourself.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:46Lewis Howes?

  Through what you went through and your rise to fame a couple of times, plus your, you know, the rollercoaster when you were on top. You know, when people were coming at you in 2020 and dealing with all that, you had grace for yourself, you had grace for your body image, you had grace for your health, your stress, you've had grace for others now in certain ways. And what I'm hearing you say is, we just need more grace in general for ourselves and others.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  No, we don't just need more grace. We still need more order. We still need to stop being

• 45:13Lewis Howes?

  Accountability.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  And more accountability, and more self accountability, more, like, less hypocrisy, and more like organising for what the actual end goal is here. What are the big things we're fighting for? Let's stop like focusing in on the minutia. So work on the big things that hurt everyone in our society. And there's work together on that, let's organise. And then on top of that, in order to be able to do that, you need more grace. Doesn't mean you can't criticize each other.

• 45:43Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  It doesn't mean you can't get pissed off with one another, it doesn't mean you can't fight. It just means that the fight has to end at some point.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  There has to be a road back. We have to allow for a space for atonement. And we have to recognise that there is a part of us that enjoys watching other people fail and do something wrong and make mistakes because then we don't have to think about all the terrible mistakes and terrible thoughts that we've made.

• 46:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  And all the mistakes we've made. It's like, oh, good, everyone's looking at them, so no one's looking at me.

• 46:23Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  And so the reason dog piles happen mostly is not because everyone cares that much about that thing. We can see that the thing that we want to say has been said a thousand times, but we want to loudly, from a tribal perspective, from a tribal place, rather, we want to loudly exclaim our disapproval so that we announce which tribe we're on. We want to say, I'm, I'm with the bigger crowd, so don't include me in any of that. I just want to, we want to be safe. We want to be in the tribe. We don't want to be left on our own to be eaten alive.

• 46:57Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  And what I feel very sad about is that

• 47:01Speaker 01

  more and more, when someone gets into trouble for something that isn't like egregious physical violence.

• 47:08Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  Like the kind of thing where they've really destroyed someone's life where that person might never recover.

• 47:15Speaker 01

  We just leave them for dead. When I got piled on to, I got left for dead. And racists and bigots and misogynists were all able to come for me and no one from my side stepped in.

• 47:29Lewis Howes?

  How is that?

• 47:30Speaker 01

  And then as soon as I overcame it, everyone came back.

• 47:32Lewis Howes?

  Why is that?

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Everyone came back and it was like it never happened. And they were like, oh, I'm so glad you came back through that thing. And I got Marvel and then I was back on the cover of Vogue and I was having a great time. And all of a sudden, all my friends came rushing, not my like real friends, they never left me.

• 47:45Lewis Howes?

  Celebrity friends.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  But all these, all these people, all these media figures were suddenly all over me, wanting to be in pictures again. And I was like,

• 47:53Lewis Howes?

  Isn't that interesting?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, you know, sometimes I now get into trouble for trying to show public grace to someone in a moment of their disgrace. And I understand why I get into trouble for that.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  But this is, it might be my mistake. But I'm not afraid of mistakes.

• 48:10Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I, I believe in my heart right now that love and extending a tiny bit of grace or hope to someone is the best way for them to come back from that thing.

• 48:23Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  And do better.

• 48:24Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  And that seeing someone go from doing something bad to doing something better is much more healthy and helpful for our society than just watching them disappear.

• 48:32Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent.

• 48:33Speaker 01

  Seeing change, seeing change. My audience love watching me change. They love that I used to be a misogynist and I, you know, I'm growing less and less problematic as time, as time goes on. But they enjoy the fact that they're watching me become not only a better person, but happier.

• 48:53Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 48:54Speaker 01

  Happier, healthier, allowing myself to fail, like getting rid of the shackles of the perfection that women are held up to, like the standards of perfection that women are held up to. I've never felt more at peace. I've never felt more love. I've never felt more connected. I've never been more open to a fist bump. I'm English, but I'll take it. But I've never felt more connected to the world. And I think a large part of our loneliness as a society is coming from the fact that we are starting to, we're being trained and encouraged by social media and media and algorithms to look at each other as enemies. We are not each other's enemy. There are people far more powerful whose names we don't

• 49:36Speaker 01

  know deliberately, who are controlling all of this and making us stare at each other rather than looking for them.

• 49:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 49:46Speaker 01

  And I want to go after them.

• 49:48Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 49:49Speaker 01

  So expect, now that I've said that, that to be another huge random media scandal.

• 49:55Lewis Howes?

  This is powerful. I'm curious, where do you think you'd be if you didn't have the, uh, you know, the attacks of everyone coming at you in 2020? Where do you think you'd be right now without that experience, that sadness, that loneliness, that loss of, oh, I thought these people were my friends and then they left and then they came back and?

• 50:11Speaker 01

  I think I'd be in a fairly similar place.

• 50:14Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 50:14Speaker 01

  I really do. I think when it comes to noticing and fighting for. Um, the way that we elevate women just to drag them down. I think that's what that taught me.

• 50:24Lewis Howes?

  Uh huh. Cause you experienced it.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  And I think I might be less inclined to reach out to someone in a moment of disgrace. That would be something that would be different.

• 50:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  I think I would be the way everyone else is, which is all, I don't wanna catch it. I don't wanna be nice to them or like anything or keep following them in case anyone drags me into this. I wanna be in the tribe. But what you do is you leave someone so isolated that then they feel hopeless and, you know.

• 50:50Lewis Howes?

  Bad things happen.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, people have died. I know people have died. I almost died.

• 50:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  I almost truly died. I can't believe I'm still here.

• 50:58Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  And had I not lived with my best friends and my boyfriend and not had the kindness of the people, you know, around me and medication that I'm no longer on, but I needed in that moment. I'd, I'd be dead.

• 51:12Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  For sure. It isn't. I understand that people look at public figures as like, well, you've got this money and this power and definitely true. Yes. It's not the same as when it happens to someone who works in a shop or a store in a school, which does happen. It doesn't just happen to them. That's the other thing. We think this stuff just happens to famous people. What happens is it bleeds into our culture and it permeates our culture. It happens to people who we never hear about. It happens to people in schools, in, you know, uh, in their workplace and they get ostracized and they lose their job. And they have no other means. They've got no way to, they can't even afford a therapist to all of it.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  The kids are watching and they're learning. But I think other than that, I think I would be at the same place when it comes to division because

• 51:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  The, the pandemic shifted something in our society globally. Uh, and the loss of women's rights. And the hatred that we're seeing now, we're not seeing people disagree with each other's opinions. We're seeing real visceral hatred.

• 52:12Lewis Howes?

  Eagle hatred, yeah.

• 52:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we're seeing mockery of each other that I don't think is very helpful, that I totally participated in before. You know, just a few years ago, if some man was incredibly degrading to me on Twitter, I would call him an incel. I look back and I'm like.

• 52:27Lewis Howes?

  Call him a what?

• 52:27Speaker 01

  An incel.

• 52:28Lewis Howes?

  Incel.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, when someone's involuntary celibate. Without really thinking about like, yes, he shouldn't have degraded me. And yes, he should never have spoken to me in that sexist and disgusting way. But my calling him an incel just lowers me to his level. And is actually perpetuating a really cruel, unkind message about men who feel lonely.

• 52:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  So then I suck.

• 52:51Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  And so I stopped doing that a few years ago.

• 52:53Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Like I'm.

• 52:54Lewis Howes?

  That's good.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  But I, you know, it's not like, I'm not like.

• 52:57Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  It's just.

• 52:59Lewis Howes?

  It's good you're aware of it and you're acknowledging it and you're, you know.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  But it's like slap down, smack down, own the libs, own the Republicans. You know, even liberals, these videos they make where they go out into these countries, these parts of the country where they've, where a lot of these people, they're not from the same metropolitan cities we are, they're not exposed to the same news or algorithms that we are. They are largely ignored by both coasts.

• 53:26Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  Until suddenly someone's got a microphone and they wanna go and interview some seventy year old.

• 53:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  Republican man, who's a farmer. And ask him his opinions on these very new topics of discussion. And he might give an ill-informed or outdated answer. And then the way we laugh and it goes viral and everyone loves it and we just on them. What message does that send? What does that say? To everyone watching that says, we think you're idiots.

• 53:59Lewis Howes?

  You're less than.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're less than. They think we're idiots. We are all, everyone, right now, being idiots. Because we're, we're fighting the wrong target. When none of us are smarter or better than each other, we're all just informed differently.

• 54:15Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  And the faster we can all work to explain that to people, the faster we will bring people together into a much healthier and happier society. And that's where I want my work to, everything I'm doing is now towards mental health.

• 54:28Lewis Howes?

  I was just gonna mention that because with your, with your show, your podcast, I Way, which is a great show that I've been on and I think I've seen the evolution of it, which is inspiring to see that it's focused more on mental health now. And I think something you said, which is self accountability, um, self-control, mental health and inter, your own healing are the things that I think when we work on those things.

• 54:55Lewis Howes?

  Everything gets better because then you can interpret things better. You can pause, you can give people grace, you can give yourself grace. You can, as opposed to just, I'm angry, I'm lashing out because I'm hurt.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  And I'm afraid.

• 55:06Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  Everyone feels afraid all the time. It's really bad for your nervous system. It's neurologically terrible. You know, we've had doctors on my podcast come on and explain that mistakes are the way, the most effective way for somebody to learn. That's how neurologically your brain is more likely to implement and keep information. We've made people afraid of mistakes. We've made people afraid of everything.

• 55:26Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  And people feel so afraid of and isolated and judged by each other. It's not good. And so what I weigh has been more focusing on is me reaching across to people who are less and less like me. I'm wanting to engage in civil discourse.

• 55:42Lewis Howes?

  Inspiring.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  And wanting to expose new ideas that are away from group think. And just challenge them sometimes, but respectfully.

• 55:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Or sometimes have my mind opened.

• 55:53Lewis Howes?

  What's the thing that's opened your mind the most from someone that maybe you said, I don't think I'm going to learn much from this person. But I'm curious to see what they have to say and maybe I'd be open. What, who shocked you or what idea opened you up?

• 56:05Speaker 01

  I think the thing that has probably taken me by surprise the most has been neurologists. In that it's not that I went in with any kind of preemptive decision of what I was gonna hear. But I had no idea how much neurology, how much brain science actually informs our personality.

• 56:25Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 56:26Speaker 01

  And informs our behavior and informs our anxiety and informs our depression. I had no idea about the way that we are wired and how much that could do and how, what we eat and what we drink and how much we sleep. I always thought, yeah, yeah, I get it. I get it. Exercise.

• 56:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Hate exercise.

• 56:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, don't drink alcohol, yada, yada, yada.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah, I get it.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  It's completely transformed my life. I've been listening to these people. I've been learning about glucose. And I've been learning about daily exercise and I'm mortified to admit that it's made me happier than I've ever been. I'm mortified.

• 57:01Lewis Howes?

  Cause you were like, screw this stuff.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  I'm furious. I hate sweating. I think it's disgusting.

• 57:05Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  But I've been exercising, you know, a little bit every single day. I've been bringing my audience along for the ride because obviously we were a kind of a very clear anti diet culture space. I was, you know, it's where a lot of eating disorder recoverers.

• 57:19Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  You know, uh, where a lot of people who've had eating disorders come to, you know, what we've created as a safe haven for eating disorders. And so exercise is a really tricky conversation for most people.

• 57:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Cause there's so much shame around exercise.

• 57:32Lewis Howes?

  It's not a healthy version. It's more of an extreme version to get you in.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  It's all for the, it's all for the external. It's all for the, the vanity.

• 57:39Lewis Howes?

  But when you know the power of your brain and how helpful it is for that, which helps you heal, calm, feel differently.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  It changes everything. But our focus is, you know, look at the exercise attire that men and women are expected to wear, especially women with the bra and like the, the light colored leggings. And that's fine. Everyone should just do themselves.

• 57:57Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Not everyone, not everyone feels comfortable exercising. I don't want to bend over and see what I look like bending over in a mirror. I had an eating disorder for 20 years. I have body dysmorphia. That's going to make me not want to go again the next day. Cause I'm going to go into a place of judgment. And, you know, we also, again, we want instant results, instant results. It takes a long time.

• 58:17Lewis Howes?

  It takes a long time.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Not that long, not as long as you think, but it takes like six months.

• 58:21Lewis Howes?

  It's not three week abs, six back. It's like six months minimum to really start seeing.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  I remember when I was 24, I walked into my friend who's a personal trainer, who then went on to train me for Marvel, Al Jackson. I walked into his gym when I was 24. I was like, how long would it take me to get an like Nicole Scherzinger? And he looked at my and he was like, about three months. And I was like, no, never mind. I walked out.

• 58:47Lewis Howes?

  Even three months is not that, it's not that long.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 58:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  You're probably lying. It was probably gonna be, he's gonna sneak me into a six, but, but still. I heard that and I was like, well, there's not two weeks. I don't have time for that.

• 58:58Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Classic, classic of our generation.

• 59:01Lewis Howes?

  Like, I'm just not gonna work out at all. Yeah.

• 59:02Speaker 01

  But when you think about the neurological benefits of exercise and the fact that within ten to fifteen minutes, you have endorphins, you have happy chemicals going through your brain that are de-stressing you, making it more likely for you to be able to sleep that night, de-stressing you. You immediately feel better than you felt beforehand. And then if you keep that up every day, within a week or two, your life starts to genuinely feel differently. And so I've been trying to bring my audience along with me on this journey doing that. It's called Move For Your Mind.

• 59:29Lewis Howes?

  How, how dare you? How dare you exercise? You know, how dare you enjoy it?

• 59:33Speaker 01

  But I found a way that is like in baggy clothes, eating sugary snacks. So we can divorce the idea of calories out, calories in. We're going against all of exercise culture and all of diet culture because exercise culture and diet culture are just married now. Um, and so we are, we've kind of created this slightly anarchist rebellious, like exercise.

• 59:50Lewis Howes?

  Don't work out, but make sure you're moving. Yeah, yes.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  But you can look ridicu-, I look ridiculous. I have no.

• 59:55Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  Like swag, you know, I don't know if that's the right word.

• 59:59Lewis Howes?

  Don't work out for Instagram. Don't work out for Instagram, work out for yourself.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  No one's gonna wanna see that. But like dance in your kitchen, do things that are free, lift water bottles, lift your dog, lift your child. You know, uh, go for a walk every day. Do simple things, buy a, buy a three hundred dollar walking machine, which might be expensive for some people. Some people it might be affordable. So if you're a woman and you're afraid of walking at night, I walk on that and I watch my favorite TV shows and then I get my half an hour a day and then I feel amazing and I have a great night's sleep.

• 1:00:25Lewis Howes?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:26Speaker 01

  I sound smug and disgusting. I hate myself. I promised myself I would never be this person.

• 1:00:31Lewis Howes?

  You're a healthy person.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  An exercising person, but we're trying to find unpretentious, fun and welcoming ways for people at any size or with any disability or any stage of pregnancy to join us and not feel ostracized.

• 1:00:41Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Cause we still, I mean, whenever there's a, like a plus size line for exercise workout, the world goes mad.

• 1:00:49Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  So what did you want them to wear when they were exercising? You want these people to exercise and work out and be healthy. What do you want us to be naked in the gym? The gyms are not a very friendly space. So it's just about finding an alternative way to democratize exercise.

• 1:01:03Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  And bring it back to the people. It was ours. It got industrialized like a matter of decades ago and turned into this exclusive club. Where you have a uniform. Why a new uniform?

• 1:01:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, unless you're playing a professional sport.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Honestly, well, you've had this uniform that's getting sexier and sexier and sexier every year for both, for all the genders and and it's becoming more and more about just becoming a billboard for other people. No one's thinking about the inside. It's all very punitive. It's a punitive. Like no pain, no gain is the stupidest slogan of our generation. One off.

• 1:01:38Lewis Howes?

  Right. Well, it's also with men. It's like you just see men just shirtless everywhere. Who are just shredded and probably on steroids or human growth hormone. And so they're just like so ripped. They're just like most men are like, I could never get to that.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that. Get to happy.

• 1:01:56Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  That person might be struggling with an eating disorder or some sort of body dysmorphia or alsoorexia. You know, you don't need to, we don't know what everyone's story is. Just focus on being happier in an hour than you are right now.

• 1:02:07Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Feeling autonomous. So so many of us don't feel autonomous in the world because there's so much chaos and we're doom scrolling and we're looking at how the world is falling apart and our kids are changing faster than we were at their age and everyone feels so like, oh, my God, it feels like I'm in quicksand all of the time. It's like, it's a quick way to immediately feel like, okay, my feet are back on the ground. And it's just temporary, but then you do it again.

• 1:02:30Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  And so that's a big part of what we're doing over at I Way is exercise culture, but also neurology and learning that

• 1:02:38Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  You can really make fundamental, quick changes, that it doesn't just have to be medication. I'm pro medication. And it doesn't just having to be access to the best therapy, which no one can afford en masse. There are so many ways you can rewire your own brain. And I think these people, people like Dr. Caroline Leaf,

• 1:02:56Lewis Howes?

  She's great.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Who's been on our podcast are fantastic and important. And they're about no longer succumbing just to Big Pharma, but giving the power back to the people to have autonomy in their own recovery.

• 1:03:07Lewis Howes?

  Absolutely.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  It's empowering.

• 1:03:09Lewis Howes?

  That's inspiring. So what I'm hearing you say is that when you started to talk to neurologists or brain scientists, you started to learn these ideas just make you happier and healthier overall.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:03:20Lewis Howes?

  Um, and so you started, you know, mortifying yourself by doing these things.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:24Lewis Howes?

  And you started to see results.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  On Instagram Live, yeah.

• 1:03:26Lewis Howes?

  And you started to see results.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm happier than I've ever been.

• 1:03:28Lewis Howes?

  I noticed it.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  I'm way nicer than I used to be.

• 1:03:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  You see it.

• 1:03:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, exactly. I could feel the energy right away when you walked in here, I go, something has shifted within you.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Lewis Howes?

  Now that you're bad before, I, I said, it was just like,

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  No, but I was defensive.

• 1:03:41Lewis Howes?

  You had a more of an aggressive energy, right?

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was defensive and I think there's nothing wrong with a little bit of female aggression, but I do think that what I had was more of a defensive energy.

• 1:03:49Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's what it was.

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  Again, I was flying so high and everyone was congratulating me so much that I was like, I was just waiting for the shoe drop. And also everyone, every podcast I went on, someone was trying to trap me or, you know, and so I didn't know what you were gonna be like, like I didn't know.

• 1:04:05Lewis Howes?

  Hopefully you didn't think I were trying to trap you.

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  No, you were great. I had you on my podcast. We had a great time.

• 1:04:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:09Speaker 01

  It's just, I, I just didn't know who to trust. I knew that the, the other shoe was gonna drop at any moment and I, and I just didn't know when it was gonna happen and I had this anxiety. And I think also because everything was happening so fast and because I had that anxiety, I think that also accounts for some of my worst, like my poorer decisions with things that I said publicly, subjects I weighed into.

• 1:04:28Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  Why am I talking about global conflict? Do I know about global conflict? But I felt pressured to because people are like, your silence on this is deafening. And so you're like, I don't want them to think I don't care. I want them to know I care about their country, but I don't know anything about their country.

• 1:04:41Lewis Howes?

  That's one of the biggest things when people say, I can't believe we're not supporting this or this or this or this. And you not saying something means you don't support it.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Lewis Howes?

  And I'm like, maybe I just don't know what to say, like.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and you're expected, because I know this, the one thing about eating disorders, I'm expected to know everything about everything. And my bad for trying to jump in when I didn't know, because I only ever created more mess. And for some reason, the media like, I can, and it can make a headline. So like, it like, and I don't know why. I like, but they, they, they know that I'm divisive. They know I'm controversial. They know that I'm outspoken.

• 1:05:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  They, they, and then they further polarize me by making the headline as egregious as possible and violent as possible. It's always Jamila Jamil slams. And often I've just said a really thoughtful thing with like a love heart.

• 1:05:24Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:05:25Speaker 01

  Sometimes.

• 1:05:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did it feel like to you when, you know, you had people that were maybe seemed like friends or acquaintances? But when you were going through your stuff in the media and people, you know, went against you or just stopped talking to you for a period of time? How did they make you feel? And how?

• 1:05:45Lewis Howes?

  Is your relationship with certain people like that, once they started to come back around?

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  They'll never be back on the inside ever. And I think it can be helpful in moments like that. As heartbreaking as they are, because it was heartbreaking.

• 1:05:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I know the feeling.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  You felt very like, you feel very betrayed and you also like judge your own sense of judgment. You question yourself, which is never a nice, it's a shaky feeling when you, when you can't trust your gut instinct. But um, truly, it's also an extraordinary magnifying glass of clarity that I'm so grateful for. Cause I have this extraordinary pool of people now left, who I know have got my back, who don't care. Who don't look at the internet, uh, who challenge me when I'm wrong with grace and love. And they maintain the most fundamental quality that I think we all need, which is to have the benefit of the doubt.

• 1:06:36Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  It's the benefit of the doubt is going to carry us to a better society.

• 1:06:41Lewis Howes?

  Yes, it is.

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  We have lost the benefit of the doubt, especially for women. We have reserved quite a lot of it for men, but even then we assume people's worst intentions and that's not the world that I grew up in.

• 1:06:53Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And if we're modeling this to our kids, what do we expect them to do? Have great values and, you know, be open to conversation?

• 1:07:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, but what's a great value? The values that are correct keep changing. So what's a great, what's a great value? What does inclusion look like? What does diversity of friendship groups look like? Debate is the is the foundation of democracy.

• 1:07:17Lewis Howes?

  We've stopped that.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Disagreement, rather, is the foundation of democracy.

• 1:07:20Lewis Howes?

  We've stopped debating.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:22Lewis Howes?

  We just said, no, I'm not gonna listen to you.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Lewis Howes?

  I was gonna yell at you and now I'm listening.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I just, like I said, I've done it before, got me nowhere. Didn't make me feel good, made me feel really lonely and sad and alienated me from people. I don't want to be alienated from people.

• 1:07:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  I wanna.

• 1:07:37Lewis Howes?

  You wanna be friends, you wanna be with the people.

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  I want us to be together. Yeah, I don't want to have children, but this work is my way of of making the world easier for my friends who are having children.

• 1:07:48Lewis Howes?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  If I can make it a safer world for their kids, then that makes up for the fact that I refuse to be godmother.

• 1:07:57Lewis Howes?

  Really, I'll tell you what, I'm I'm I'm inspired by just the journey you're on. You know, I'm inspired, I'm inspired that you got to experience so much in the last six, seven years. You got to experience a rise of fame quickly. And you did some things that you were proud of, but also things you weren't proud of. And you learned from them. Um, you know, I'm glad you got to experience people for you and then against you. Because you learn from them and I feel like you're a better person because of that and you have more perspective now. And at the end of the day, you've got a lot of grace for yourself and grace for others. And it sounds to me like you want people to come together, you want people to be open minded. Uh, you also want people to be accountable for their actions.

• 1:08:41Lewis Howes?

  And you want people to focus on their mental health and their optimizing of their own mental health. Optimizing their own physical body and their spiritual health. They can have more peace and grace for themselves and others. That's what I'm hearing.

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we talk about mental health so much now in society and it's a big part of the zeitgeist. But I still think we're talking about it from not quite the right angle. We're still talking about it as though like this would be a good thing to have on an individual basis. Wouldn't it be nice if you had, if you could make your mortgage payments and look after all your kids and take them to all the practices and do all of this for everyone? But then also not want to kill yourself. It's definitely still seen as a surplus, whereas actually it should be the foundation of everything that we are going to. I can't believe mental health is not free in this country. I cannot believe it's not free in every single country, it is in many countries. But this should, this is how we increase our GDP. People can work healthier.

• 1:09:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Speaker 01

  People can be healthier. They will be in the hospital less if they are happier because stress and loneliness and all these different things are huge factors as to what destroys people's health and immune systems. It would change the amount of people having to go in psychiatric care. It would change the amount of homelessness there is.

• 1:09:50Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  Uh, it would change the way that we treat each other as a society. Like it would change everything. That's where the money should go. All the money should go there. If we could all as a world put the money instead of in the military only into mental health. If we could take some of those trillions and put it towards making the people and the children happier and having children have access to mental health. We wouldn't need so much military. There wouldn't be so much war. We wouldn't need the police as often as we do. We wouldn't need as many.

• 1:10:19Lewis Howes?

  Drugs or whatever else.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  As many drugs or as many different things that we have now to try and like numb the pain and help people escape from the pain.

• 1:10:27Lewis Howes?

  I agree.

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  We would be so into our phones. And a lot of people who make a lot of money from us doing that know that. They don't make the move to improve our mental health. And so we have to do it ourselves. And people like us have to tell people.

• 1:10:42Lewis Howes?

  I'm loving this message.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  I just think.

• 1:10:44Lewis Howes?

  Inspired by this message.

• 1:10:45Speaker 01

  I think it's the most important thing in the world and it's still treated as like a luxury.

• 1:10:48Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:48Speaker 01

  Rather than a fundamental and it should be the same as brushing your teeth or, you know, getting out in the sun or whatever.

• 1:10:54Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  As opposed to eating good food.

• 1:10:58Lewis Howes?

  So I've, I'm like.

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  We didn't know what we were going to talk about today.

• 1:11:01Lewis Howes?

  I'm just, I keep them inspired by this because, you know, I just love seeing the journey. I didn't know this is where you're at fully. So for you coming in, I was just like, wow, this is really inspiring. I have a couple of final questions for you. Um, that I think, well, I know I asked you the first time on the show. And so I'm really fascinated to hear what the response is to them. And if it's the same or if it's changed from the last time.

• 1:11:25Speaker 01

  I don't remember what I said, so you'll get honest on.

• 1:11:26Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, well, we'll link that back up so people can see the last one also. But I'll ask that in a second. But I want people to check out your shows. You got I Way, you got Bad Dates, which is hilarious. You're on social media, Jamila Jamil on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, everywhere. IWayCommunity.com. How else can we follow or support you with what you're up to right now?

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  I think just join me at I Way or join me on my social media. Join the mental health movement. I think that we really have an opportunity to change the future of marketing and mental health and include more people. Listen to I Way. It's a great podcast on neurology and mental health that offers you the autonomy to take it into your own hands. Listen to Bad Dates if you want to feel better about your own romantic life. It is the most disgusting and filthy and funny podcast with extraordinary comedians who give way too much information about their personal lives and sex lives. And again, it's the much needed escapism. I'm able to provide information and the sad stuff and then the escapism. So I hope people listen to it because it is just an amazing vacation for your mind.

• 1:12:29Lewis Howes?

  That's great.

• 1:12:29Speaker 01

  It's purely simple.

• 1:12:30Lewis Howes?

  And we need comedy.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Lewis Howes?

  Comedy is one of the best medicines, you know?

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Saved my life.

• 1:12:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, that's a great. Okay, so both those shows, Bad Dates, I Way. I'm inspired. I want to hear these final few questions. Before I ask the final two questions, I want to acknowledge you, Jamila, for, again, the journey, transformation, the, the, it's really more, not a transformation, more the awareness that you have about yourself. And who you've been, where you're at now, or where you're going. And I really just love that you have that awareness for you, that you've been on a healing journey, that you're able to see things from a different perspective. For me, that's really inspiring. I think it's inspiring when I can do that and anyone can do that. So I'm inspired by the journey you're on and it's really cool to see you right now in this space. Because most importantly, you're happy and you're healthy.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:16Lewis Howes?

  And that's for me, really inspiring to see you in a space like that.

• 1:13:19Speaker 01

  It also, speaking of cancel culture, goes to show that like, when people criticize you, some good can come from it. Even if I didn't always make a public notes apology statement about everything, I was listening.

• 1:13:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  I was listening when people pulled me out. And so I make this tweak sometimes privately.

• 1:13:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  Because sometimes it's easier to make change privately. We need to become aware that it's okay to have a learning journey privately. You do not have to share every single thing. I'm not going to have a pap smear on my live IG. I need to, I need to look after my brain.

• 1:13:51Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  Privately with space and, and mess.

• 1:13:53Lewis Howes?

  You don't need an opinion from every person in everything you do.

• 1:13:56Speaker 01

  And, and everyone doesn't have to be privy to every single thing about all of our lives. It's a very big like misconception about how we're supposed to conduct ourselves because of how much some people choose to share on social media. But I'm listening. And I'm changing. But also, the people who spoke to me constructively were the ones who got in. And the people who almost pushed me over the edge and killed me or made me so angry that I didn't want to fight for anyone and give up were the people who abused me. I didn't need to be sent death threats or rape threats or threats that I'm going to be ostracized or that people are going to boycott me or call for me to be fired. I didn't need that change. The people who spoke to me kindly and with peace and with the best of intention, who had, who believed in me to change are the ones who changed me.

• 1:14:40Lewis Howes?

  That's cool.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  So criticism can be fantastic. I am a product of that criticism, but from love.

• 1:14:46Lewis Howes?

  Caustic criticism.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Those are the people that helped me. The other people did nothing but cause me stress and almost made me give up on everything, including my own life.

• 1:14:56Lewis Howes?

  You keep inspiring with this message. So I'm grateful that you're sharing it. And if you guys are inspired, make sure to leave a comment below of the part

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  This is a drinking game now for how many times Lewis has said inspired during this.

• 1:15:06Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. I don't know why. This is really inspiring. You can ask, you can ask.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Get that from me.

• 1:15:11Lewis Howes?

  You can ask, you know, my team, Bob. I haven't said that to anyone in this way.

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Calling everyone inspiring.

• 1:15:17Lewis Howes?

  Inspiring in certain ways, but not like this.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:20Lewis Howes?

  But you can ask them afterwards, you know. Yeah. But I mean, no, everyone's inspiring, but the way and how you. View things differently is inspiring. When you were completely.

• 1:15:30Speaker 01

  It's the fact that you've got the before and after.

• 1:15:32Lewis Howes?

  More extreme in another way.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. We love a before and after in our generation and so like this is my before and after.

• 1:15:39Lewis Howes?

  I just wasn't expecting it. So I think that's what's inspiring because you're in a peaceful place, which I really, which I'm really excited about for you personally.

• 1:15:48Lewis Howes?

  And I, so I'm acknowledging for that and I want you to, to hear that acknowledgement.

• 1:15:51Speaker 01

  Just tell me one more time that you find me inspiring.

• 1:15:53Lewis Howes?

  Exactly. I do find you inspiring. But I acknowledge you for, for the journey. I think it's really cool. And I think it's, the thing that is inspiring about it is for people that were in that state of mind that you were in now, that are still angry and upset and screaming and fighting and maybe it's justified their anger, but it's not going to get across with what, to make the change they want in the best way possible.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  But also we don't value humility. We value self-flagellation, eternal self-flagellation, but we don't actually value true humility. And when someone shows it, we normally on them. We normally make fun of them and be like, ah, see, I knew you'd done that thing wrong. Ah, I'm going to use this opportunity to make you feel even worse. It's like, that's not the way.

• 1:16:39Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, son of a.

• 1:16:39Speaker 01

  That's not how we treat children, I hope. And we're all just children. We're just children who are bigger. We've got, uh, jobs and bills and stress, but we're all just massive kids. Whenever I'm at one of my boyfriend's concerts, I don't watch him. I watch the audience because he's an, he's an amazing musician. He's doing this thing that is incredible. He's not just, uh, you know, pressing a button and all the music plays. He's actually playing like three instruments at the same time and singing and people are watching him and they're enjoying what he's doing. The songs mean something to him. And they're all looking at him and they're not thinking about themselves or their lives or anything else. They're just focusing on one thing.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  And this is with any show. I'm just giving you an example of what I've seen. And they look like babies. They look like innocent babies. And you can see their humanity. Like I urge anyone at any concert or any cinema to look around for a second and, and see people's inner child when all the defenses aren't up and all the like arbitrary obligations that we get when we're 18 suddenly come along. Look for the inner child in everyone. I do that with everyone, even the people I argue with. I look for that, and I don't mean that in a condescending way.

• 1:17:48Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  But we're all, we all just want the same shit we wanted when we were babies. We wanted, we were lonely. We are hungry. We are tired. We're disgruntled. We're not getting what we need. And before we used to cry and we used to talk about it, but now we're not allowed to. But we still feel those feelings.

• 1:18:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 01

  So how do we look after the child in all of us, I think?

• 1:18:10Lewis Howes?

  Preach it. I like this.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  I swear I haven't taken like ayahuasca. No, there's anything wrong with that. I know I was speaking like someone has taken ayahuasca.

• 1:18:18Lewis Howes?

  I haven't taken it.

• 1:18:18Speaker 01

  I haven't taken any, uh, psilocybin.

• 1:18:21Lewis Howes?

  There you go. Wow, that's the first person in Hollywood who's said that.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  I'm afraid. I was like, I'm already crazy. I don't need.

• 1:18:29Lewis Howes?

  That might mess everyone more, yeah.

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  That one over the edge.

• 1:18:33Lewis Howes?

  This, uh, the, okay, these last two questions, this is called the three truths. I asked you this before. You may not remember it. That's okay. But it's called the three truths. So it's a hypothetical question. Imagine you get to live as long as you want. Uh, but it's your last day on earth, far in the future.

• 1:18:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:18:49Lewis Howes?

  You get to experience, accomplish, not accomplish, all the things you want to do. Um, and you live a beautiful life, but it's the last day. And for whatever reason, on this last day, you have to take everything that you've ever said with you. All the content, all the TV shows, all this interview, the tweets, whatever you create in the future, it's all gone for whatever reason.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:12Lewis Howes?

  And all you get to leave behind to the world are these three final truths. Three lessons that you've learned, or that you think you will learn for the rest of your time, that you would leave behind, that you think are important for people. What would be those three truths for you?

• 1:19:30Speaker 01

  Cuddles are the most important thing on earth. I really mean that. They are truly the most important thing on earth. Physical affection, some sort of form of physical touch is the most important thing in the world. Try and access it wherever you can, even if you have to pay for it, whatever you need to do. They have cuddle cafes in Japan.

• 1:19:48Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Highly recommend. Highly recommend, yeah.

• 1:19:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  But, uh, cuddles are the most important thing in the world. Um.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  Never trust a fart. It's deep and meaningful. I hope you can see that. I'm a deep philosophical guy. But it's true. And I've learned that one the hard way.

• 1:20:08Lewis Howes?

  Never.

• 1:20:09Speaker 01

  Never trust a fart.

• 1:20:12Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  And that shame never achieves anything productive.

• 1:20:18Lewis Howes?

  Love it. Final question. What's your definition of greatness now?

• 1:20:23Speaker 01

  For me personally, greatness would just.

• 1:20:30Speaker 01

  It's something to do with making people laugh. Being able to give people the gift of laughter, whether it's at my expense or in something that I'm making. Even people who love to hate me. I'm like, you're welcome. Like, it brings me, like, there are some people who really enjoy making fun of me or hating me. And they're having a good time and they're bonding over it.

• 1:20:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  And I love that for them.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  But giving people the gift of laughter to me is the most connected I can feel to a human being. Almost more than sex. Like, it is just the most, like, our souls are intertwined in that moment. We're on the exact same wavelength. And laughter has been the the main thing that saved my life. More than any medicine or operation or anything. Laughter has been the key to my survival. And so if I'm lucky enough to get to keep doing that forever, or even for another few years, I'd be thrilled. I've I've had my fair share. I'm ready to go. I don't have to get to do this any longer, but that to me is greatness, as being, you know, remembered the way that I remember. Or not even remember, but as I leave this world, I want.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  God, I hope he knew this when he left, but I hope Robin Williams remembered at the very end. How much joy he brought, how much he made us laugh. Because I I like I have pictures of him in my house, you know, and it's like a kind of, almost like a shrine to that man because of how many of my darkest moments were alleviated because of him. And and I I pray that he thought about that even for a fleeting second towards the end of his life because it's so.

• 1:22:20Lewis Howes?

  Did you ever get to meet him?

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  I never got to meet him.

• 1:22:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:22:23Lewis Howes?

  I had one moment. I had one moment with him.

• 1:22:25Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:22:26Lewis Howes?

  Um, well, I mean, I didn't speak to him, but I was on a plane that he was on and he was in the front seat. I was walking on the plane and right before I even got on the plane, I felt an energy of like crossing on to like, I'm entering the plane and I could like hear something. I was like, that sounds interesting. Sounds familiar. And I saw him talking to the person sitting next to him in first class right there. He was going from New York to LA and he was on. He was like telling some joke and like, people were just like in it, right? And luckily, people were stopped putting their bags up. And so I was just kind of standing there for like 60 seconds, watching like this close from him and just seeing him do his magic. And I was like, wow, that's a pretty

• 1:23:07Lewis Howes?

  funny guy. And unfortunately, you know, that was the one time I met him, but it was, I didn't meet him, but I saw him and I got to experience it. But I was just like, man, this guy brought so much joy and laughter to so many people around the world.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 1:23:19Lewis Howes?

  And so I love that definition of greatness for you. And I'm so grateful you were, you came back on and you shared and uh, thank you again for making me laugh as well as inspiring me. Cause I had to throw that in one more time.

• 1:23:34Lewis Howes?

  Thank you for being here. I appreciate you. I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our greatness plus channel on Apple podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple podcast and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the

• 1:24:19Lewis Howes?

  greatness newsletter and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do something great.