‘Adolescence’ May Be the Best Show of the Year. Plus, ‘White Lotus’ S3E5 and ‘Severance’ S2E9.

Chris and Andy talk about the first episode of ‘Adolescence,’ the new Netflix drama miniseries, and make the case for why it may be the best show of the year (6:05). Then they break down the most recent episode of ‘The White Lotus’ and why that celebrity cameo ended up showing how slow this season has been moving (26:37), before spending some time on the penultimate episode of ‘Severance’ Season 2 (44:47). Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Senior Producer: Kaya McMullen Video Production: Chris Thomas Video Editor: Stefano Sanchez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Ryan?

  This episode of The Watch is brought to you by Coffee Mate. Coffee Mate has been searching the globe for flavors that pair perfectly with coffee. So when they heard the new season of HBO's original series, The White Lotus, was set in Thailand, they were inspired to brew up two new flavored creamers, Thai Ice Coffee and Pina Colada flavored creamers. They're available for a short time only, so for the love of coffee, go try them now.

• 0:23Speaker 01

  I don't know what I'm doing. Need a break. Forget it, I quit. Escape to Pluto TV.

• 0:28Speaker 02

  This is objectively fantastic.

• 0:30Speaker 03

  Relax into the movies and shows you already know and love, all for free. Shwing! Even our news is uplifting.

• 0:36Andy Greenwald?

  You stay classy, San Diego.

• 0:37Speaker 03

  Watch Tommy Boy, Crazy Ex Girlfriend, Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy, The X-Files, Wayne's World, and so much more. We're not worthy! The best things on TV really are free.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  You just have to know where to look.

• 0:49Speaker 03

  Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.

• 0:53Speaker 05

  Para los grandes, para los chicos, para los bajos y los altos, los pacifistas, los valientes. Para los optimistas y los pesimistas, los que valoran lo de adentro. Para los que están lejos, los que no vende lejos, y los que no vende cerca. Para los introvertidos y los extrovertidos. Para los que piensan y los que hacen. Para los que nos mostraron el camino. Coca-Cola. Para todos. Compra una Coca-Cola en una tienda cerca de usted.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  I need support staff to clear the room. Stand up and walk. Now!

• 1:30Chris Ryan?

  Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, we all have our Achilles heel, it's Andy Greenwald!

• 1:43Andy Greenwald?

  Big Monday.

• 1:44Chris Ryan?

  What's going on, buddy?

• 1:46Andy Greenwald?

  Look, uh, Adolescence, White Lotus, Severance, big TV show, but, big TV show Monday.

• 1:52Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, big TV show Monday.

• 1:53Andy Greenwald?

  But I wanted to wish you, and particularly half of you, a happy St. Patrick's Day.

• 1:56Chris Ryan?

  Oh, thanks, the good half.

• 1:59Andy Greenwald?

  The half that keeps it real.

• 2:00Chris Ryan?

  You know that's the good fellas thing, right? You know, I'm not, I'm not making any kind of like weird gesture.

• 2:05Andy Greenwald?

  It was noted.

• 2:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:06Andy Greenwald?

  It was noted. It's kind of a sensitive time.

• 2:09Chris Ryan?

  I had a St. Patrick's Day celebration on Friday. Today I am celebrating St. Patrick's Day.

• 2:16Andy Greenwald?

  What did you do on Friday to celebrate it?

• 2:17Chris Ryan?

  I had a Guinness and then a harp.

• 2:19Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, nice.

• 2:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20Andy Greenwald?

  So you were just, that's just you in a nutshell, both sides in it. All beers matter. It was beautiful.

• 2:28Chris Ryan?

  I thought that's what this country was all about. Maybe I'm wrong.

• 2:31Andy Greenwald?

  Do you know, um, I did want to ask you if you were having a similar experience because, you know, generally, even before we started recording today, we were talking about how much fun we both have on the internet. Just with what's serviced to us and how things are cool. But I am, I'm here to talk about the good things. And one of the good things in my life now is that because of my recent travels and my interest in, in my time in London, is I just now get serviced. I think I now have the CR feed.

• 2:56Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 2:57Andy Greenwald?

  Because all I get serviced to me are like Instagram accounts called like Creamy Guinness. And it's just like, the best pint of Guinness in London is found. And you know, it's just like they go to another place called like the Old Shalali.

• 3:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Andy Greenwald?

  And then it's just people being like, ah, do you see that? Do you see the way it kisses the glass? And I have to say, I'm a very affected by this.

• 3:17Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:17Andy Greenwald?

  It looks amazing.

• 3:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:19Andy Greenwald?

  All the pubs are great. I miss them very much. But I am also wondering, I mean, feel free to jump in with your thoughts on the Old Shalali, or maybe we'll just go back next time we're both there.

• 3:28Chris Ryan?

  A fan of the Toucan was my Guinness spot.

• 3:30Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I mean, a lot of content from the Devonshire, which I think we've both been to and.

• 3:36Chris Ryan?

  Lot of dudes with industry vests standing outside the Devonshire.

• 3:40Andy Greenwald?

  Lot of other dudes there too, when we were there as dudes. We did not stand out.

• 3:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:44Andy Greenwald?

  I guess the thing that I'm asking you about is in your experience with the world and, you know, you're, you're, you're an aesthete. You enjoy.

• 3:50Chris Ryan?

  We're gonna talk about that when it comes to adolescence as well. Yeah.

• 3:53Andy Greenwald?

  Jesus, I'm stalling. Um, the, again, this is like years too late, but I'm now thinking about it. So I'm talking about it. But like Guinness is one of those things that is a undeniably a great thing in the world and delicious. But also it looks really good on Instagram.

• 4:10Chris Ryan?

  Beautiful.

• 4:11Andy Greenwald?

  And the, I'm wondering if you are ever finding yourself falling down in the uncanny valley between how good people holding things up on reels looks and what the reality is. Because you know, there are other things that look good on the internet too, like cheesesteaks. I'm getting serviced a lot of like cheesesteak influencer content. And like, oh yeah, look at that. And they like break the cheesesteak in half and like hold it up. And I'm like, I'm at Old Pat's on Conchahocken. And I'm like, I've driven past that place a hundred times. It's probably good.

• 4:40Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 4:41Andy Greenwald?

  But what's the ceiling here? But on Instagram, when you get in, the cameras in on the juices and the Cooper, you know, the Cooper Sharp flowing.

• 4:48Chris Ryan?

  Oh yeah. When the original gemstone is just slapping together a cheesesteak.

• 4:54Andy Greenwald?

  So, so, oh, that, oh, right, yeah, that Cooper.

• 4:57Chris Ryan?

  I currently, I don't want to delay too long because we actually don't have that long today.

• 5:00Andy Greenwald?

  I know, I'm stalling so we don't have enough time to talk about Severance.

• 5:02Chris Ryan?

  I, I am currently being served a ton of Japanese, like nighttime in Japan content.

• 5:09Andy Greenwald?

  We switched identities.

• 5:11Chris Ryan?

  Lots of like, the, like, empty, bar-packed, like, like, alleys full of bars that seem, are seemingly empty at 1 a.m. or whatever, and then Blade Runner music playing under it, and I'm just like, this is literally the fucking best cinema I've ever seen in my life.

• 5:28Andy Greenwald?

  But do you remember?

• 5:29Chris Ryan?

  There's no way this can be as cool as it looks. And there's just like a guy smoking a cigarette. Like, it's just so good.

• 5:35Andy Greenwald?

  You, I mean, you know, you know, during the pandemic when we did the podcast remotely, we're doing it on Zoom, and I was spending a lot of time driving, I did, I had my separate office then that I had rented in Hollywood right near where we used to, here we go. You're giving me shit about that. Off mic, you've been giving me some troubles about that. Um, I rented, I brilliantly rented an office.

• 5:56Chris Ryan?

  Every time I'm like, oh, I bought a, I bought a DVD, and he's like, must be nice.

• 5:59Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, like I had a cold glass of Sprite the other day. I'm like, well, well.

• 6:04Chris Ryan?

  Mr. Monopoly.

• 6:06Andy Greenwald?

  Good to be king. Um, I rented an office next to where we recorded the podcast for many years.

• 6:12Chris Ryan?

  Yes, maybe financially not your best decision.

• 6:14Andy Greenwald?

  Well, no, not just that, financially, but like, uh, uh, in terms of just location.

• 6:18Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, because you thought you could stroll over.

• 6:20Andy Greenwald?

  I would just stroll over, never recorded there again.

• 6:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:22Andy Greenwald?

  Anyway, I did spend much of that time, yeah, yeah, working on scripts, but also watching just YouTube videos of people taking night fairies to Hokkaido.

• 6:32Andy Greenwald?

  So I do think something has switched with us, because that is great content.

• 6:35Chris Ryan?

  Can we take a night fairy to Doncaster right now?

• 6:37Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, all right. I see you're all business, but.

• 6:39Chris Ryan?

  I just want to get this out on the record. I've basically since Friday night been dying to do this podcast with you, and I was like, basically gonna do it by myself if you hadn't watched this.

• 6:49Andy Greenwald?

  Is that why you kept your distance at dinner on Saturday? You just, you just wanted like, woo.

• 6:54Chris Ryan?

  Um, I think if I remember correctly, we did have dinner on Saturday, and at the end of it, I came up to you, I was just like, adolescence makes the pit look like Friends. Have fun tomorrow.

• 7:04Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 7:05Chris Ryan?

  Um, Adolescence is a show on Netflix. It's four episodes. It comes from Jack Thorne, who is incredibly prolific English writer, who has done things on the sort of mainstream end as big as Harry Potter and the Cursed Child onstage.

• 7:18Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, do you know about that?

• 7:18Chris Ryan?

  And, uh, the Stranger Things, uh, play and, and tons of like big screen adaptations. But is also incredibly dedicated to writing social realism TV, uh, like, uh, just making limited series that tackle issues that he is interested in in England. He collaborated with the actor Stephen Graham, who is also seen on screen right now in A Thousand Blows, which me and Manzuk has talked about a couple of weeks ago, and we still have not hit. Uh, but I know you've checked out.

• 7:45Andy Greenwald?

  He also had a, another rip from the headlines mini series on Netflix last month.

• 7:50Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 7:51Andy Greenwald?

  With Robert Carlyle and White Lotus's Amy Lou Wood.

• 7:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 7:54Andy Greenwald?

  Very prolific.

• 7:55Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so he is an incredibly prolific writer who has tackled, um, a lot of big issues in his time. I'm like pretty familiar with him. I, I know he's got a start on Skins. You know, he is kind of like in the one man industry, Russell Davies, Taylor Sheridan, kind of it like.

• 8:11Andy Greenwald?

  Can I just put a personal pin in and say to hear the reverence with which you are speaking about a guy who has managed to balance personal projects with Harry Potter is really inspiring.

• 8:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you're seen.

• 8:22Andy Greenwald?

  I thank you. Thank you for that.

• 8:23Chris Ryan?

  Um, people, I think if you were online at all this weekend, or if you checked out Netflix this weekend, you probably couldn't have missed some mention of Adolescence. It's gotten very, very, very, very strong reviews. It is the number one show on Netflix currently.

• 8:38Andy Greenwald?

  Is it?

• 8:38Chris Ryan?

  And, um, I'll say this for my part.

• 8:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 8:43Chris Ryan?

  Uh, within a few moments of this show starting, and I've, I've finished it. This is why I watch television and why I podcast about TV.

• 8:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 8:50Chris Ryan?

  Um, I feel like this happens once a year, if you're lucky, maybe twice, if you're having a great year. Obviously, Andy and I love talking about, um, all the traditional networks. There are big stars on their big shows that we kind of have anticipated and gotten prepared for. And we know White Lotus is coming, or we know Last of Us is coming, or we know Industry is coming back. And we're ready and we're ready and ready. But Industry is a really good example of a show like this where sometimes you turn on your TV. And it takes flight and like you get introduced to people that you haven't met before. Jack Thorne has a off quoted aphorism about television being an empathy box.

• 9:30Chris Ryan?

  This idea that you can, um, over the course of these long form stories, find humanity in people that you haven't met before, that you may be like in issues that you aren't familiar with, or don't really have time to unpack at the level of these shows do. And I was absolutely floored by this on every level, not only as like a person who is horrified by like, uh, what's happening in, in the world, but also like as a person who just wants to see incredible work being done. Shout out to Netflix for putting this out. I'm so happy this is a big hit. It's my favorite thing I've seen this year.

• 10:06Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 10:07Chris Ryan?

  Astonishing. So we can talk a little bit about, I know you saw the first episode. Take me through how you're feeling about it.

• 10:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah. So I would say, um, thank you for the strong shove.

• 10:18Andy Greenwald?

  Thanks to our buddy Tyler for paying my valet, but the same moment you were telling me about this, but I, I, I think it worked out for all of us, maybe not him. I did watch the first episode. I will be watching the next three episodes, maybe in time for our second show of the week. But this is a chance to sort of get people amped up about it. I, I, I'll come out and say the obvious thing first. This was, this is not hereditary. You, you, you were treating me with kid gloves to the point where I, I do appreciate this.

• 10:44Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. I was like, if you don't want to watch it, I understand because of like what, what this is about. We'll get into that.

• 10:48Andy Greenwald?

  So, but it is, it is not that. My perception of this show, even just from a few headlines, a few social media things was that it was going to be an absolute meat grinder of, of an experience emotionally, because it is about a child, both in peril and potentially a child who is capable of great violence. It's about a kid who is in the opening moments of the first episode accused of a hideous crime. Uh, and it follows in tracking shots, um, what happens next.

• 11:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. It's a series of one.

• 11:16Andy Greenwald?

  And emotionally.

• 11:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:18Andy Greenwald?

  It is, I, I was for whatever reason, I, I, you know, there were certain buzzwords or a sense of it. I thought that it was actually like a tracking the act of violence as opposed to what happens afterwards and what sort of support net, safety net. Cultural Net is there to catch when things like this occur. I found it absolutely riveting and emotionally engaging, but I did not find it painful to watch. It is not that. So I feel like if there's anyone who listens who's like me, I don't know. There is.

• 11:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I've had a bunch of friends who are just like, I can't, I gotta tap out just based on like what the log line is. Yeah.

• 11:54Andy Greenwald?

  At least through One, and that could change. I did not find that to be the case. I found it to be so, this is a strange thing to say about a television show, but plain spoken. The camera is turned on, and as you said, the camera does not turn off. I'll also say as someone who is often on the microphone of this podcast, speaking against bold aesthetic directorial choices, this is the least, this is the most unobtrusive oner I could possibly imagine. I definitely was watching to see like where the sneaky cuts were.

• 12:28Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 12:29Andy Greenwald?

  I don't know if there were any.

• 12:30Chris Ryan?

  I mean, you can see behind the scenes videos of them like attaching a camera, a cameraman holding a camera, and then the camera is also on a drone and he lets go of the camera.

• 12:40Andy Greenwald?

  And it follows.

• 12:40Chris Ryan?

  And it follows. And they done, you know, there's a, there's a scene in the second episode where they go through a window and it's like, I don't really know how that happened.

• 12:50Andy Greenwald?

  Let's say this instead, that like often, particularly I want to say in television, when you see an autourish tracking shot, that can be a sometimes fatal or sometimes just distracting misallocation of resources.

• 13:05Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 13:06Andy Greenwald?

  Not just that the director or whomever is taking up, is doing something like purely for ego. It's just that successful television productions are equal footed collaborations between so many departments. And when you start to mess with that ratio, things can tip. And what's beautiful about this show through One is that it feels like a really, really, really grounded and empathetic and inclusive collaboration between Jack Thorne, who you mentioned, Stephen Graham, who is the hardest working man in show business at this point, who is the actor and also the co-writer and co-creator with Jack Thorne, and Philip Barantini, who is the director, who did this type of show with Stephen Graham on Boiling Point, a show that I've talked briefly about before. This feels like

• 13:52Andy Greenwald?

  Incredibly creative people at the height of their technical and empathetic powers being like, let's all walk in the same direction towards an investigation of a thing.

• 14:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so you would be well within your rights to say, why does it need to be one take? And or why do these need to be one or shots? And there is a, I think, a, um, it's a formal gambit that actually defines the experience of watching the show. And it also informs how you process the information that you're being given. Um, to use the first episode as an example, so what happens is it opens and a 13 year old boy is arrested, accused of murder by the English police. So he's taken into a station and because we're never cutting, you're in the van with the kid as he rides to, um, the station. You go through the mundanity, the mundanity of like,

• 14:45Chris Ryan?

  all the paperwork that has to be done, all the questions that need to be asked, all the questions that need to be repeated. Um, and then the slow process of the family arriving, a lawyer being brought in as a public defender. And we follow the police as they are also chatting about this. And the thing that I think I started to feel as we went on is, first of all, the dissonance between something being the worst thing that's ever happened in their family's lives together to do it Tuesday for the other people in the building.

• 15:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 15:17Chris Ryan?

  Um, the different levels of emotional engagement that different people in the criminal justice system have with what's happening. So obviously on the family level, it's like utter heartbreak and confusion and desperation. But for the public defender, it's kind of like, I'm here to do a job. I'm not going to sugarcoat what's going on with you, but I'm also like, I, you know, need to go do my paperwork and I need to go grab a coffee and I need to go do this.

• 15:43Andy Greenwald?

  And for what it's worth, that collision, um, is also what powers the pit in a really compelling way. The, the, the collision between. Slightly hardened, varying degrees of hardened professionals and people who are have suddenly gone through the looking glass into a world that they never expected to be in at six in the morning.

• 16:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, so I don't want to give away too much about the show because I think it's something that I want people to discover and frankly, I'm glad I didn't read much about it as I watched because the third episode especially was so astonishing that I'm glad I didn't know anything about it.

• 16:16Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 16:17Chris Ryan?

  I will say that Aaron Doherty, who's also in A Thousand Blows, makes an appearance on the third episode of the show and is, I mean, making a case for having one of the great acting years on TV in a long time between Thousand Blows and this. I was curious how you felt about where the first episode ended up. So for spoilers for the first episode.

• 16:39Andy Greenwald?

  And even light spoilers.

• 16:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, light spoilers, but I think it's important because obviously, like, as an audience, we are put more or less in the POV of the family for much of the first episode. Their confusion, their clinging to this idea that their child is innocent, that this is some sort of mistake. And then by the end of the episode, the father, the son Jamie, the father played by Stephen Graham named Eddie, are two police officers played by Ashley Walters, who people may recognize from Top Boy.

• 17:12Andy Greenwald?

  Or from So Solid Crew.

• 17:13Chris Ryan?

  That's right.

• 17:13Andy Greenwald?

  I did not know that. He's awesome.

• 17:14Chris Ryan?

  Faye Marseille, who is obviously in Game of Thrones.

• 17:17Andy Greenwald?

  And Andor.

• 17:18Chris Ryan?

  And Andor. They present the evidence, starting with some something, some feels somewhat circumstantial up into.

• 17:27Andy Greenwald?

  I mean.

• 17:29Chris Ryan?

  Video evidence of this child.

• 17:31Andy Greenwald?

  London's reputation for being, England's reputation for being a CCTV kind of country is.

• 17:35Chris Ryan?

  Uh, yeah.

• 17:36Andy Greenwald?

  Lot of footage of me buying hairy bows.

• 17:39Chris Ryan?

  This kid killing, killing a young girl with a knife. And so you are basically confronted with somewhat, something of your biases, you know, as like, because you're watching this kid and you're like, well, he's so sweet. Look at him crying in this van, like, look at his life ending right in front of his eyes, like, he couldn't have done it, or maybe this is a mistake, or we're going to find out that this is a miscarriage of justice and that's what this show is about, and it's not.

• 18:04Andy Greenwald?

  Well, let's think about what you said at the beginning, which is Jack Thorne's idea of the TV as an empathy box. And it doesn't mean, though, that it's just set up and you turn on the box. What it means is you can, there are dials on it. And I think about those dials a lot, particularly when trying to wrap my head around the. The sort of soft power of TV creation.

• 18:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 18:23Andy Greenwald?

  And it's relevant for this, it's relevant in ways that we talked about last week with The Pit, and it's relevant with Severance, too. Which is, when you are in a creative space, like in a writer's room, or planning a season or a series, you have all the answers. It is your job, you and your writing staff, or even your writing partner, or even if it's just one person, you know the whole story. And it is your job to know at 360 degrees, back to front, every detail. What people were thinking about, or what people might think about something, even if they're not on camera reacting to it. The really challenging part, then, and this is especially true for mystery box shows or just mysteries, is how and when to reveal that information, and how best to deploy it in the service of an engaging TV show. Right?

• 19:04Andy Greenwald?

  So you'd never want to give everything away, but there's so much power in, as Severance perhaps learned too well.

• 19:11Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:11Andy Greenwald?

  Withholding. And I think that this first episode is a masterclass in that, for exactly the reasons you say. You are, at once, disoriented, but also, in a very strange way, comforted by the guardrails of a system, of processes, of people who are reasonably kind to this kid, because that is their job, right? To just be relatively neutral.

• 19:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that the kid is also an empathetic character, yeah.

• 19:34Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and this kid, Owen Cooper is the actor.

• 19:37Chris Ryan?

  Honestly, dude.

• 19:37Andy Greenwald?

  Extraordinary.

• 19:38Chris Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 19:39Andy Greenwald?

  Where do they find this kid?

• 19:40Chris Ryan?

  I have no idea. But, like, what he does in Three, I'm like, is this what it's like to see?

• 19:46Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 19:47Chris Ryan?

  You know, like, a great actor who's gonna be around for 30, 40 years.

• 19:50Andy Greenwald?

  This is like DiCaprio on Growing Pains. I don't know if you remember, but he was really, really memorable. But, but anyway, do you get what I mean in the sense that?

• 19:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I do.

• 19:56Andy Greenwald?

  To, it's not just so much work went into diagramming and choreographing the direction, the camera work in this first episode, but an equal amount of work appears to have been given towards the emotional load-bearing and the revelation.

• 20:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Andy Greenwald?

  So that every step along the way, including these small moments that do stand out, of like Stephen Graham grabbing the attorney and saying, "I don't know what I'm doing here." I mean, and then the show constantly reminds us, it's like 6:43 in the morning.

• 20:26Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 20:28Andy Greenwald?

  Leading up to a moment of just a hammer dropping, uh, which is how that first episode ends.

• 20:34Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 20:34Andy Greenwald?

  I thought it was masterful.

• 20:35Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:36Andy Greenwald?

  Masterful.

• 20:36Chris Ryan?

  And even like then that moment between the father and the son, where he at first is like, basically turns his back on him. And then finally is just like, well, we only have each other here. And there's like this embrace.

• 20:48Andy Greenwald?

  As someone, as, as, um, Ashley Walters, who plays the DI Luke Bascom says, you know, in the interview prior to that, all right, I get it. Everyone here is just trying to do the best job they can.

• 20:58Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 20:59Andy Greenwald?

  And that's all anybody's doing. I also found it, not to be too ripped from the headlines. I did find it, and this might unravel in future episodes, strangely comforting to be at sea with a system that appeared to be working, just a working public system. Not saying that the, the police's case is airtight or whatever. I'm not commenting on that. But there was a public facing responsibility presented by the cops, at least in the first episode, that I found very refreshing in a country where public facing systems appear to be degrading.

• 21:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Andy Greenwald?

  Where they were like, you know, in terms of like getting a lawyer, getting representation, explaining step by step, getting the cornflakes, which I did not know were called cornies.

• 21:37Chris Ryan?

  Cornies, yeah. Yeah, uh, I think that that, the, that, that net, that safety net is, is not necessarily, I think when you start to find out more about why Owen may have become what he became.

• 21:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 21:51Chris Ryan?

  It, it's evident that the people who are trying to keep that safety net taut and keep people from falling through it are, are woefully understaffed and, and under res- and, uh, under resourced. Uh, I want to talk more about this with you. So like, we'll, we'll hit it if not Wednesday, maybe we'll hit it next week. I really hope people watch it. It's, um, it's just a really meaningful show to me. I think I, I think, I, I think that there is something of a blast of fresh air. Because.

• 22:22Chris Ryan?

  When you watch a lot of stuff that's asking you to infer human behavior, not infer human behavior.

• 22:29Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 22:29Chris Ryan?

  But infer like human drama from a distance because it's either high genre, like hard sci-fi, kind of a escapist fantasy, but it's like, but it's also about class. And it's like, no, this is just literally about class or it's about the pain we pass down through generations of families or about whether or not people without fully developed brains should be exposed to the information that our kids are exposed to on their phones. And that kind of comes up in the second episode. It is, it is like really kind of a, it was centering for me to realize like, oh, this is what this medium is capable of.

• 23:10Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and I think that it's an interesting debate, not debate, it's just an interesting ongoing conversation for our podcast right now because we've been really, obviously, taken with the pit. We're very compelled by this show and we've been talking about it in terms of industry sentiment.

• 23:24Chris Ryan?

  Landman, we were obviously very taken by him.

• 23:27Andy Greenwald?

  By the way, I don't want to get off track here, but I did have a dream that there was a secret season finale of Landman that we hadn't talked about.

• 23:33Chris Ryan?

  No, we didn't, we didn't miss it then.

• 23:35Andy Greenwald?

  I may off mic have to tell you about what happened in this episode.

• 23:37Chris Ryan?

  Well, did you see Sam Elliott's gonna be in season two?

• 23:40Andy Greenwald?

  Is he playing the same character he played in 1883?

• 23:42Chris Ryan?

  I hope so.

• 23:44Andy Greenwald?

  Wait, I just, before we get off track, which I'm eager to do, because by the way, it was renewed, right?

• 23:49Chris Ryan?

  Of course it's renewed.

• 23:49Andy Greenwald?

  I know, but I thought that was a fait accompli, but it didn't get announced until this week. Anyway, we've been talking about it in terms of an industry story again and again about TV's retrenchment from some of the directorial or a tourist or cinematic ambition of the last decade and just like getting back to meat and potatoes storytelling. But that's not necessarily the whole story because I think that we're, what we're really responding to when we see shows like The Pit, when we see shows like Adolescence, and even certain elements of something like Paradise is, I don't think it's, I mean, I'm not trying to lump them together.

• 24:21Chris Ryan?

  I know, I mean, you're, you're concerned about climate change.

• 24:24Andy Greenwald?

  What I'm trying to say is, it's not necessarily, it's just too easy to say, ah, this is just a return to old fashioned storytelling, basic storytelling, broadcast storytelling, middlebrow storytelling. I think that I am actually for a kind of turn back towards some engagement with, whether it's social realism or the world as it is, as opposed to. Boy, we really are in a dystopia or in a really sexy incestuous fantasy, Guns and Dragons world or whatever. Like, I think that there's an element of it that is reminding us of the value of that kind of engaged storytelling. Being here now.

• 25:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 25:00Andy Greenwald?

  And I don't want to be misunderstood here. Like, the greatest examples of the shows of the last 10 years, there are human moments in all of them.

• 25:08Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 25:08Andy Greenwald?

  There's even a human moment that I found very moving in episode nine of Severance from the season.

• 25:13Chris Ryan?

  There you go.

• 25:14Andy Greenwald?

  And I'll gotta keep listening to find out what it was. One, one. No, but I-

• 25:20Chris Ryan?

  In 38 minutes.

• 25:21Andy Greenwald?

  But get ready, guys. No, but, but I do think, I do find that very exciting. And of course, the larger caveat, which is TV is enormous and it is capable of a lot of different types of storytelling. What's exciting about Adolescence, even more so than the shows we're mentioning, is that it is wildly ambitious in terms of subject matter, theme, emotion, tone, and filmmaking.

• 25:41Chris Ryan?

  Yes. Yeah. I'm just so happy that it's doing so well. And I'm so happy that Netflix is, is, I, I, really, I'm not trying to like glaze Netflix. It's just like, I'm, it's awesome that that's the number one show at Netflix right now.

• 25:55Andy Greenwald?

  Well, there's a, there is, I tried to articulate this with Black Dubs and I don't know if I was ever successful in doing it, but I think that there is a way to engage with the parameters of Netflix's algorithm, with its priorities, and just with how it presents storytelling that is positive. It is not running from the next episode in five seconds, you know? It is not running from the gourmet cheeseburger, let's be noisy, let's make a top 10 around the world. And what you're, what you're asking me about how the first episode of Adolescence ends, that's a really smart use of how Netflix is going to be presenting this show.

• 26:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 26:31Andy Greenwald?

  It is a quiet moment that is so devastating that you, you're almost too stunned to even hit stop. You need to keep going. And another good, another good use of that is, I mean, again, I haven't seen them all yet, but I, I think the four episodes, nice.

• 26:48Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, I mean-

• 26:49Andy Greenwald?

  Smart.

• 26:50Chris Ryan?

  At the end of the first one, my wife and I were like, I think we need to watch With Love with Meghan Markle to like chill the fuck out.

• 26:59Andy Greenwald?

  Did you?

• 27:00Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Andy Greenwald?

  Did it make you, did it give you hope that some people?

• 27:03Chris Ryan?

  The first one is like literally something out of Mulholland Drive. But the-

• 27:07Andy Greenwald?

  The first episode of Meghan Markle?

• 27:09Chris Ryan?

  I just felt like I was losing my mind watching Markle. But so we skipped to the Mindy Kaling episode.

• 27:13Andy Greenwald?

  And that grounded you?

• 27:15Chris Ryan?

  I was more just like, honestly, like, I find this very soothing to watch this woman make a frittata.

• 27:22Andy Greenwald?

  I just thought you were pairing them in the sense that like, boy, it seems rough in the English penal system. At least some good people can escape it.

• 27:30Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 27:31Andy Greenwald?

  At least there's a chance.

• 27:33Speaker 01

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• 27:38Chris Ryan?

  This is objectively fantastic.

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• 27:46Andy Greenwald?

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• 29:34Chris Ryan?

  Let's talk about your fucking boy Sam Rockwell.

• 29:37Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, so White Lotus, episode five.

• 29:39Chris Ryan?

  Uh huh. Had been, had been some talk about this is the one, get ready.

• 29:44Andy Greenwald?

  But there was also rumors, right, that there was gonna be a guest star? Where did this come from and talk me through this?

• 29:48Chris Ryan?

  Probably Prestige TV podcast, I think that they had maybe mentioned it. I don't, I don't know, but like I think that there had been some chatter that, that, that there were more cameos this season. Um, and that, uh, we should be on the lookout for episode five.

• 30:02Andy Greenwald?

  Okay. Great.

• 30:04Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 30:05Andy Greenwald?

  You were on the lookout.

• 30:06Chris Ryan?

  I was actually chatting with our producer, Kaya, before you got in. And, uh, let me, let me just posit this to you. Was the Sam Rockwell scene in this new episode of White Lotus so good?

• 30:19Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Chris Ryan?

  That it kind of cast the other parts of this season a little bit in a dimmer light? Because it was like, oh, obviously, everything has to have like dynamics where it goes quiet loud, quiet loud or whatever. But was this, this felt, made me feel like I was like taking flight.

• 30:35Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 30:35Chris Ryan?

  You know what I mean? The show itself was actually going some profound, to some profound place. Not unlike some of the characters who are in Thailand looking for spiritual transcendence, looking for pure love, looking for whatever they're looking for. This show itself kind of shed some kind of, yeah, it's White Lotus, we're rich, we're hanging out at the pool. Like we're, we're kind of getting fucked up and trying to heal ourselves.

• 31:01Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 31:02Chris Ryan?

  That thing. A, it was just an incredible piece of two people acting with one another.

• 31:07Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 31:08Chris Ryan?

  And an amazing piece of writing, but I actually thought quite profound when he's talking about, I wanted to be the lady fucking me, but be, you know, like, all that stuff actually like clicked for me. What'd you think?

• 31:19Andy Greenwald?

  How many Meghan Markles did you watch after that speech? I.

• 31:23Chris Ryan?

  No, I'm actually referring to episode five of Meghan Markle.

• 31:26Andy Greenwald?

  I got, I got tuned in.

• 31:28Chris Ryan?

  Rockwell shows up, yeah.

• 31:29Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 31:29Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 31:30Andy Greenwald?

  I, uh, I'm eager to talk about this with you because I thought this was a fascinating episode of TV and particularly of The White Lotus. I thought it was a hugely disappointing episode.

• 31:42Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 31:42Andy Greenwald?

  Except for that scene. So, first of all, let's just talk about that scene on its own first. That, that was really thrilling for it to be Rockwell in the lobby, just because those boys should always be together.

• 31:56Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 31:57Andy Greenwald?

  Like those boys, like there's sometimes when you, especially with a guest star, even a slightly famous guest star, when they show up and they, you have to just assume a backstory.

• 32:04Chris Ryan?

  There's a little Elliot Gould, George Segal vibe to it.

• 32:07Andy Greenwald?

  A billion percent. That is your cast for the California Split remake in Bangkok. And like, those guys clearly have had some nights where they probably should have been drinking chamomile tea.

• 32:16Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 32:17Andy Greenwald?

  So, that was thrilling and exciting and it did feel like the show was finally elevating a little bit. I would also argue that the show felt like it was elevating a little bit when we saw the bright lights of Bangkok's Chinatown reflected in the taxi window with Walton Goggins in it. Because Walton Goggins' story could have been a pretty good mini-series that is so far, even though nothing has happened in that story either, that storyline is head and shoulders above everything else on season three of The White Lotus.

• 32:46Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 32:47Andy Greenwald?

  And it is a strange thing so far, again, not much has happened writ large, where one field trip storyline is, feels weighed down by the hotel. That, and that's my sort of perception of how the season is feeling. That scene was.

• 33:06Chris Ryan?

  Does The White Lotus have a White Lotus hotel problem?

• 33:08Andy Greenwald?

  Look at that.

• 33:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:09Andy Greenwald?

  You're so good at internet.

• 33:10Chris Ryan?

  I, I, I, I still enjoy watching this show.

• 33:13Andy Greenwald?

  We'll get into the other plots.

• 33:14Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, okay.

• 33:15Andy Greenwald?

  But this, yeah, this was one of those things where I'm like, yeah, Mike White cracked his knuckles and was like, I'm gonna take a big bite out of all of this.

• 33:22Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Andy Greenwald?

  I'm gonna give Rockwell something to do that Rockwell can do better than almost anyone. I'm gonna give him a speech that is so long and so engaging and so deeply confusing that all I'm gonna ask Walton Goggins to do is to just react. Um, and.

• 33:38Andy Greenwald?

  Both of them are at their best in doing it. And the weirdness of it and the heightened surreality of them being in a place. We didn't know their relationship. We don't know what, and we kind of now know what Rick's doing there. And we could have guessed what was in the bag. But it gave.

• 33:53Chris Ryan?

  I mean, after that Rockwell speech, who knows what's in the bag?

• 33:55Andy Greenwald?

  That's a great point. It just gave the show the kind of vertiginous, jet lag, smeary. What are we talking about and what are we looking for? Feeling that I think a show about people traveling, hiding or seeking is always in search of. And it was just killer, just great actors too, at the top of their game.

• 34:15Chris Ryan?

  Do you think that the speech that he gives, the anecdote or whatever, is it like an allegory for writing? You know, this idea of, because I think a lot of this season has been about pushing excess to the point of like purification anyway. And it's interesting, different characters have different attitudes about what they're doing there. And what kind of experience they want to have. I find it very fascinating that, you know, like as Saxon's father becomes essentially a lorazepam addict. Like he's like, I'm, you know, my body's a temple, but then takes MDMA that night. But I was kind of going over the Rockwell speech in my head. And it is about disappearing into other people and somehow finding out something about yourself.

• 34:59Chris Ryan?

  As you try on all these different identities and roles and become, feel different ways and being made to feel. And, you know, it, not only is it funny and exciting and surprising, but it's so profound, I think. And I wonder whether as somebody like, you know, writing can be very workman like, but writing can also hit this kind of like nirvana sometimes. You're like, yes, I've inhabited someone else here.

• 35:29Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's really. Really smartly observed and really interesting, especially for a Mike White show. Because I think that one of the things that is really appealing about his work generally is you can feel his good faith, earnest questing in everything that he does. He is working on himself through what he writes and what he's interested in exploring. And I think he probably has asked himself these questions at times, particularly with the enormous, you know, the brighter fame that he's gotten through The White Lotus, the brighter spotlight on him and his work, the greater opportunities, money, whatever, to explore and push what he's interested in. And that what he, one of the things he, and that he's interested in writing about people from different levels of society that are different from his own experience.

• 36:12Chris Ryan?

  That's probably why he likes playing Survivor.

• 36:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, right, exactly. So I think that there's, I think that that's a very, very smart read of it. I also think, again, because I think that this is a artist who has been working on himself and working on stuff for decades, when I say that this season has been disappointing, I am not throwing out the whole project.

• 36:31Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 36:31Andy Greenwald?

  I'm interested in it. And one of the things that makes me interested is what you just said, that if we think about the Sam Rockwell character as voicing some aspect of Mike White's creative psyche, which is just like, you know, I kept trying more and more extreme versions of, let's say, writing or story or plot. In the end, I had to just sort of let go with all of it and sit with the problem. Because that's, at the end of all of it, you're just left alone with yourself. Is that why this season feels so particularly stuck in neutral, where none of the characters have advanced at all outside of themselves in five episodes? Is that, in a sense, like a meta-commentary on the project writ large?

• 37:10Andy Greenwald?

  Because I am, I was really, really surprised how completely devoid of tangible or compelling stakes this episode was, despite being intercut.

• 37:22Chris Ryan?

  Despite there being a near-suicide. We have a gun in the wild, we now have two guns in the wild. We have Belinda and Greg hunting one another essentially.

• 37:31Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe, yeah.

• 37:32Chris Ryan?

  Well, more or less, at least, be aware of one another.

• 37:34Andy Greenwald?

  But her bigger peril this, this week was whether there was a lizard in her room.

• 37:40Chris Ryan?

  Yes. But then there's also all this betrayal going on on the island between, right? So why are you shocked?

• 37:46Andy Greenwald?

  I guess. I mean, I, I found it. So, well, I guess you could. We could go storyline by storyline, and we probably should talk about each one. But there's also, I think there might be another reason why it's feeling the way it's feeling this season, and we don't know this yet. Five episodes out of how many? I think it's like nine, isn't it? I think it's nine, and I think that that continues a trend of every season being a little bit longer than the previous season. Mm-hmm.

• 38:19Andy Greenwald?

  I was shocked to remember, so, okay, so eight, but yes, that is, every season is one episode longer. Okay. I did not remember that the first season was six episodes, and the second season was seven episodes.

• 38:32Andy Greenwald?

  The fifth episode of the second season was called "That's amore," and that's when Tom Hollander invites Tanya and Portia to Palermo. They're already out on the end game of that season, and I remember we were watching that episode, and we were like, where are they going? What does this have to do with a larger story or the murder mystery from the beginning? But we felt some sense of momentum in it. This season has more episodes, and maybe these people in these moments deserve more time spent to live with them, but Piper telling her parents at dinner that she wants to do a gap year near, in a monastery near one of the most luxurious resorts in the world, did not strike me as particularly compelling television.

• 39:16Andy Greenwald?

  Now, Tim Ratliff is going through his own thing, so he's monosyllabic and has a gun in his pocket. Parker Posey did some of her best work so far in the series with her reactions and why would she want to live in Taiwan? But that ultimately did not strike me as that big of a deal, frankly, for a series. Similarly, these three women partying with some Russians, and are they gonna hook up with them, or is Leslie Bibb gonna do a shot or not? That wasn't that-

• 39:47Chris Ryan?

  A very aesthetically pleasing night.

• 39:49Andy Greenwald?

  It's shot beautifully, it's intercut, there's a moon party.

• 39:51Chris Ryan?

  Watching the dancing and I could see kind of like, this should be in a normal or like stable group of friends. It's like, let's, let's get Lori like, have, let's get her laid. Like, we gotta get, have a fun night.

• 40:03Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 40:04Chris Ryan?

  We gotta like go out, she needs a pick-me-up. We're in relationships, but she's divorced, like, let's go. And obviously Jacqueline needs to-

• 40:14Andy Greenwald?

  Be the-

• 40:14Chris Ryan?

  Feed the beast when she's not getting attention from her partner back in the States and is suspecting him of, I guess, sort of cheating on him? I can't really-

• 40:22Andy Greenwald?

  Or just ghosting.

• 40:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like she's like, no, I need to be-

• 40:26Andy Greenwald?

  The star.

• 40:27Chris Ryan?

  The star.

• 40:28Andy Greenwald?

  Totally. But that dynamic-

• 40:30Chris Ryan?

  I got it, I know how to watch TV.

• 40:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but also, we went out Saturday night. I know what it's like among friends in their 40s.

• 40:37Andy Greenwald?

  What I mean is, um, those fault lines in that, in that friend group have been static since they got off the boat.

• 40:45Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I think that's what you're reacting to and I think it's what I'm reacting to. There's a certain stasis that even as the groups overlap, even as Sax and Lachlan go hang out with Chelsea and Chloe, even as, um, Jacqueline and Lori and Kate go out into town and with Valentine and his friends, that they remain the same.

• 41:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, and there was no, like, I, I, I think that, so for example, and it's, maybe, I don't know, is it useful not to compare it to past seasons? But that episode five of, uh, of season two, the, the Harper, Ethan, Cameron, I mean, that, that plotline?

• 41:23Chris Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:23Andy Greenwald?

  I think that's the episode where they went out wine tasting. And again, there were, there were four live wires in that group who could cross like a game of tic-tac-toe in any number of ways, and we didn't know which way it was going to play out. The three friends, those fault lines remained completely static. And had it been like, guess what, Lori is gonna hook up with all three guys, or, um, what's Leslie Bibb's character's name?

• 41:47Chris Ryan?

  Kate.

• 41:47Andy Greenwald?

  Kate. What if she surprised the other two by coming out of her shell in a different way?

• 41:52Chris Ryan?

  For, for Medicare for All.

• 41:55Andy Greenwald?

  It's good. You know what? She just thinks there are a lot of people at the Department of Education who... No, look.

• 42:02Andy Greenwald?

  I think that would have been more... That could have been more compelling or more surprising. Now, I'm not telling Mike White how to do his job. This is clearly a choice.

• 42:12Andy Greenwald?

  I do want... I'm gonna throw one other... I'm gonna throw out one concern troll-

• 42:16Chris Ryan?

  This is a safe space for you.

• 42:18Andy Greenwald?

  -that we'll revisit at the end of the season.

• 42:19Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 42:20Andy Greenwald?

  The first two seasons of the show were written with enormous haste, time deadline, and production restrictions, particularly the first season. This season was delayed because of the strike, but also, I think you could assume, even though he famously writes very fast, Mike White had more time for this season than any other season.

• 42:39Chris Ryan?

  Okay.

• 42:40Andy Greenwald?

  Sometimes that's not a good thing. And then taking so much time on screen for some of these storylines might also not be the best thing. I don't know. The Rick and Chelsea storyline, I think, is the most compelling. They're now separate from each other. And Amy Lou Woods' face and her reactions so far, other than Walton Goggins, I think, is the breakout star of this season. But her arc-

• 43:01Chris Ryan?

  Respectfully, I think it's Piper... Parker Posey's accent is the breakout star.

• 43:07Andy Greenwald?

  That's true. That was kind of a... That was a hipster pick.

• 43:09Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:09Andy Greenwald?

  You know? As Sheil would say.

• 43:13Andy Greenwald?

  But the Chelsea storyline, being on this boat with these boys and doing ecstasy where fireworks go off, is essentially one of like, "Oh, I'm worried," as she says. "I'm worried about Rick." "But I guess I'll have a good time." "But I'm worried." And she's waiting for Rick to do something, just like we're waiting for Rick to do something.

• 43:31Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Andy Greenwald?

  So there's a lot of anticipation. Would all of this go away if the Netflix button that said, "Next episode in five seconds," pop up? Would that... Is this season better paced for that? I don't know.

• 43:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I don't... I think that there's... I would have to go back and do that overlay you just did with the first two seasons, because it's been a while since I watched Hawaii, obviously. And I remember Italy quite clearly, but Italy also had just a lot more madcap shit happening. You know, it felt much more- I don't know, of scene to scene, there was more vitality. And there's something a little bit like static. It's like what you're saying. It's not even the fault lines. It's even like, even though the filmmaking has been wonderful this season. And I actually really, you know, like, it's funny that you're like, oh, Chelsea and Rick are the breakout story. And I'm like, my actual interest is in Jacqueline, Kate and Laurie.

• 44:26Chris Ryan?

  Like, I'm fascinated by his portrayal of these quote unquote lifelong friends. Who obviously have a lot of like, issues with one another. But I always leave episodes feeling like, what did I just? Was there not enough of one of these groups of people?

• 44:42Andy Greenwald?

  It's also quite long. I think maybe the way to articulate it is we, the audience at this point. And I think that we, you and I are particularly patient watchers of this show. Just as we've said many times, we like being on vacation.

• 44:55Chris Ryan?

  People may disagree with that, but yeah.

• 44:57Andy Greenwald?

  But the audience, I think writ large, is waiting for a shoe to drop, a revelation to happen. Someone to be honest, but the characters are waiting for that too. Within the Ratliff family.

• 45:08Chris Ryan?

  It's a, it's a cast, it's a group of characters waiting for a gun to go off.

• 45:12Andy Greenwald?

  It is. We shouldn't, the audience and the characters shouldn't be waiting to find out who's shooting. You know, like Tim still hasn't been.

• 45:20Chris Ryan?

  The best version of White Lotus is when you forget there's a body at all.

• 45:23Andy Greenwald?

  Well, yes. I totally, I totally agree with that. And it's not succeeding enough.

• 45:27Chris Ryan?

  Cause that first season, you're like, oh yeah, right. There's, there's a body getting loaded into the, but who cares? Like, this is so incredible.

• 45:33Andy Greenwald?

  Peel off certain characters that I do feel warmly towards and I'm interested in from this episode. Guy Talk's journey in this episode, as he finds out a gun is stolen. He has access to England's CCTV system and sees that Tim has the gun. He lurks around, sweats, waits, says, I think you have something that I lost. And Tim says, I don't know what you're talking about. That's Guy Talk's arc this episode. Tim's arc is I have a gun in my pocket. My daughter wants to do a gap year. I think I might kill myself. I'm not going to.

• 45:59Chris Ryan?

  Oh, he gets interrupted.

• 46:00Andy Greenwald?

  And I don't, still don't tell anyone anything. I mean, his, Jason Isaacs is doing so much with so little. It's, it is a pretty incredible performance. And his breakdown, which he then immediately retracts about being like, there's so many expectations on me. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Is so fantastically delivered.

• 46:18Chris Ryan?

  Do you feel that way?

• 46:19Andy Greenwald?

  The two, every, every Monday at 10 a.m., yes.

• 46:22Chris Ryan?

  When you fire up adolescence.

• 46:24Andy Greenwald?

  When I watch the show you wanted me to watch over the weekend, right before sitting down with you. No, like, I, I'm eager, regardless of what happens plot wise. When Jason Isaacs and Parker Posey get a like, let's clear the decks here scene. I'm psyched. When they do their version of Streetcar or whatever that it's gonna look like. Can't wait. That's on tap. We know that. But in terms of like delivering on a promise. I mean, I guess we get some brothers kissing, which, you know, you and I are fascinated by. We're always interested on, as you said, how things.

• 46:58Chris Ryan?

  That's how they do things in that family.

• 47:01Andy Greenwald?

  The two only children are just Principal Ed Rooney watching White Lotus season after season. But even, you know, that was, again, that was all foreplay. It was all buildup, not just between the brothers, but I mean, between the four of the people on the boat. They want to have fun. Gary's capable of killing someone. Belinda is just lying, is just waiting for that shoe to drop one way or another.

• 47:25Chris Ryan?

  For her son to arrive, but yeah, has sort of, it seems like Belinda. That's a good example. Belinda's arc as far as like, I'm here to learn more about the healing processes that you guys employ here so that I can bring them back to Hawaii seems to have somewhat fallen by the wayside as, although.

• 47:42Andy Greenwald?

  She's, she's getting some healing.

• 47:43Chris Ryan?

  It could be physician heal thyself, you know what I mean? Or healer heal thyself.

• 47:46Andy Greenwald?

  I was happy that she got that.

• 47:47Chris Ryan?

  Let's do Severance really quickly. Obviously, the finale airs Thursday. I don't know that we will be talking about the finale on our Thursday show. So people have to wait for a few days.

• 48:00Andy Greenwald?

  We have to record early.

• 48:01Chris Ryan?

  And I know you guys can't wait. I know you guys are just like, these dudes.

• 48:05Andy Greenwald?

  Another week with my friends talking about my friends.

• 48:07Chris Ryan?

  Still are just like, when is Watch gonna come out?

• 48:10Andy Greenwald?

  We couldn't be, we couldn't be more outy.

• 48:12Chris Ryan?

  You said that there was one moment in this episode of Severance that touched you. What was it?

• 48:19Andy Greenwald?

  When the credits rolled. Okay, no, um, I.

• 48:24Andy Greenwald?

  I, there's no reason to be snarky here. I, I really like the Zach Cherry, Merritt Weaver scenes.

• 48:30Chris Ryan?

  I did not.

• 48:32Andy Greenwald?

  I, well, good. Let's have a little, let's have a little conflict. We're, you know, we're too, we're too Lachlan, Lachlan and Saxon. You know what I mean? Just, uh, I like, cause I kinda didn't like, there's, I have, I have a larger criticism of it. But what I liked in the Merritt Weaver, let me just leave it at the Merritt Weaver part. I like that she is playing a real person who is, through her face and her performance, reacting to the emotional truth of an insane world.

• 49:05Chris Ryan?

  Does it bother you that Merritt Weaver seems to be a real person? And then when

• 49:10Andy Greenwald?

  And no one else is?

• 49:11Chris Ryan?

  To the train station, everybody is dressed like it's Mad Men?

• 49:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. Everything else bothers me at this point.

• 49:17Chris Ryan?

  What is the disconnect there? Like, what is, that's, that to me is something that I feel like I need to go to a cognitive behavioral therapist about because for some reason, like, that's been screaming in my head.

• 49:28Andy Greenwald?

  The, the train station stuff?

• 49:29Chris Ryan?

  Since I watched this episode. The fact that there are certain elements of this show that seem to exist in a recognizable reality to ours, but with like this subterranean part.

• 49:37Andy Greenwald?

  Increasingly fewer, but yes.

• 49:38Chris Ryan?

  But then when Irving and Bert go to the train station, it seems to be taking place in like a 1950s folky, like, everybody's here at the Utica train station, you know, like.

• 49:50Andy Greenwald?

  Also, uh.

• 49:52Chris Ryan?

  Am I wrong? I mean, did you notice that?

• 49:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yes. And in both of those scenes, though, there also felt like, a couple of scenes got cut or missing from the last few episodes?

• 50:00Chris Ryan?

  Well, that was, I think that's what I'm reacting to with the Dylan plot.

• 50:02Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, it, that, that.

• 50:03Chris Ryan?

  Is that he just keeps walking into rooms and being like, what the fuck? Fuck you.

• 50:07Andy Greenwald?

  Which one? Which Dylan?

• 50:08Chris Ryan?

  Uh, the, any Dylan seems to be doing that.

• 50:11Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, but also he's, he's now just fully in love with a person he's met twice and then is willing to kill himself over it. Right? And, and, and quit.

• 50:21Chris Ryan?

  Metaphorically, yeah.

• 50:23Andy Greenwald?

  Now, I don't wanna like, again, I don't wanna make like a bad faith argument here. Like, I'm sure they, they had a vibrant, I'm sure they had many vibrant writers' room discussions and it very well may be that there were no more scenes to play out because of the construction of the show, like. They're just gonna be sitting in the ad aquarium room again. Like, there's no, what other beats are there to play?

• 50:40Chris Ryan?

  Andy, why aren't they working? Like, I know this is, I don't mean to sound like an asshole.

• 50:46Andy Greenwald?

  Hit me.

• 50:47Chris Ryan?

  But...

• 50:47Andy Greenwald?

  I love it when you do.

• 50:48Chris Ryan?

  Let's just say, whatever Cold Harbor is, which we have like, I, let's just say it's a whatever, it's a code that they're finishing to resurrect or clone people or transfer consciousness into other people, whatever it is. And it's, apparently has a deadline, as we find out in the beginning of this episode.

• 51:09Andy Greenwald?

  It's the momentous day.

• 51:10Chris Ryan?

  It's like, hey, it's the day, today is the day. And we haven't had Mark in the office in several days. Dylan seems to be primarily interested in taking advantage of what was supposed to be a like, hey, great job, we think you've got a lot of potential here, because of that, we're gonna offer you this, this, this privilege that other people don't get. That seems to have completely waylaid or destroyed him. He's now alone and decides to quit. So Dylan has quit, Helly is now back on her revolutionary shit. And running around, never is in the computer area.

• 51:44Andy Greenwald?

  No.

• 51:44Chris Ryan?

  It's staffed by Milchick, who is now like, also rebelling against the management, and Ms. Wong, who he sends away. There's Drummond, who seems to be the only person in charge of security in all of Lumen, even though they have this massive, complex building.

• 52:00Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, there are only six people there.

• 52:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, like, what, I just don't understand, like, I, I, I think that there's like, a practical thing that bothers me about like, if these people are living under the authoritarian thumb of this faceless corporation that's doing evil shit, why can they get away with so much stuff?

• 52:18Andy Greenwald?

  So this is me doing my best Emperor Palpatine, saying, "Good, good. Let it flow through you. It's freeing, there's so much power on this side."

• 52:31Andy Greenwald?

  The other scene that I semi enjoyed was Milchick and Drummond for one reason alone, because it was the only moment in this entire episode when a character was honest with another character. And he said, "Eat shit." And he couldn't even say that directly at first. Otherwise, and those are two good actors who are playing a scene strongly. Otherwise, the entire episode is just a series of obfuscations.

• 52:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, all the stuff of waiting in the woods. No, we have to wait until night, but we're not gonna talk at all. But Devin is completely bought into what Cavell is.

• 53:00Andy Greenwald?

  The realignment will happen suddenly, except it won't. That was three episodes ago. It'll happen in the finale. So there are two scenes, I know we're pressed for time, and we actually do apparently do have something to say about this episode, that I think highlight my struggles with this. And look, we've talked about it for weeks. We'll talk about it in the finale. There are just baked in construction issues that they've had to deal with. And one of them is, there is nowhere for that first season to go. If they are being monitored 24/7, then those any characters are completely in handcuffs. So they had to come up with hall passes, and then Mark doesn't show up for work, and then Helly's a revolutionary, and there's a child. Just to, or we just stop paying attention to their expectations, because otherwise there's nothing for them to do within the structure that they created for themselves.

• 53:45Andy Greenwald?

  These are corners that they creatively and ambitiously painted themselves into that they've done a lot of work clearly to try and undo. And that's a tough place for any show to be in, particularly going into a second season. But there are two scenes in particular that kind of summed it up for me. One is the, we drive into the, yet another frozen wilderness to meet with Cobell, who, this is a moment when they could actually ask each other any number of questions, and they don't. Because this is a television show that needs to hold on to its secrets until the finale. Fine, we get it. We bought our ticket for the ride. What is the most fascinating, hammer-dropping piece of information delivered in that scene? It is Cobell saying Cold Harbor is the case. Who does that land with? The audience of Severance. Not Mark.

• 54:28Chris Ryan?

  Well, Mark presumably would be like, isn't that the name of the thing I've been working on?

• 54:31Andy Greenwald?

  If that was any Mark, but it's not.

• 54:33Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 54:33Andy Greenwald?

  That's Audi Mark.

• 54:34Chris Ryan?

  Right.

• 54:35Andy Greenwald?

  Those words are meaningless to anyone who's not a fan of the show Severance. And that's who that scene was talking to.

• 54:41Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 54:42Andy Greenwald?

  That's really frustrating on a character emotional level. The other thing I would want to point to was the cold open. Ice cold open.

• 54:50Chris Ryan?

  Oh, the egg?

• 54:50Andy Greenwald?

  So, again, I'm never criticizing the show for its aesthetics because it is beautiful. Production design, the direction, all as high as it gets on television. So we see Helly swimming in laps in an indoor pool. I guess what we've learned from that is that she's fit aerobically? Okay. She goes upstairs and she has a very odd breakfast with her father who lives in a big mansion. And she cuts an egg on a very stylized plate and eats the whites. Now, there's been enough egg stuff and fertility stuff to suggest that there's a lot of baby stuff in whatever the.

• 55:25Chris Ryan?

  Sure, we end this episode at a birthing center.

• 55:27Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and we're ending at a birthing center. And so that is on some level, we can, that's the, that's the thought area where this show is going, where the secrets are, right? Presumably, and increasingly, heavy handedly so.

• 55:42Andy Greenwald?

  We then hear in the way that these weirdo people talk to each other that it's a momentous day and he wishes he heard his daughter ate eggs raw. And then we pull back and dramatically learn that the owner of Lumen lives in a big mansion. And it's snowy there and there's a water tower. Tell me if I'm wrong. What other information was given in this scene? What was the purpose of this? This incredibly.

• 56:09Chris Ryan?

  Well, I guess that he lives with his daughter. Cause I think that the more important part happens towards the end when he comes downstairs. And it's, there's an indication where. I don't, I mean, it was, the implication to me was that we are not certain which Helena or Helly is in the basement that day, or is in the facility that day. That it's, Helly is acting like-

• 56:30Andy Greenwald?

  Uh, yeah, yeah, because you have the scene with Dylan where it's like, no one could tell.

• 56:33Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, well, and also just the fact that she tries to use her dual identity against Milchick.

• 56:40Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 56:41Chris Ryan?

  And her father seems, so like, what if Helly is actually-

• 56:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 56:45Chris Ryan?

  Like, what if they're severing people, going out rather than coming in?

• 56:48Andy Greenwald?

  Whoa.

• 56:49Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Think about that shit.

• 56:51Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I appreciate that-

• 56:53Chris Ryan?

  That's-

• 56:54Andy Greenwald?

  -that point, but do you get what I mean in terms of-

• 56:55Chris Ryan?

  I completely understand, yes, all of that.

• 56:57Andy Greenwald?

  The show is paced and tonally presented-

• 56:59Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 57:00Andy Greenwald?

  -as if it's the fucking Book of Revelations.

• 57:01Chris Ryan?

  Well, as Elvis Costello would say, "All this useless beauty."

• 57:05Andy Greenwald?

  Wow. Look at you. I did wonder, I mean, TV can be weird when you have these weird, like, synchronicities that definitely are not intentional and are not speaking to each other. When there's the Bert and Irving scene, and it made me think of Say Nothing. Just like, Dohler's driving people.

• 57:20Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Andy Greenwald?

  I can't tell you where you're going.

• 57:22Chris Ryan?

  And also made me think of Yellowstone, taking people to the train station.

• 57:25Andy Greenwald?

  But, but like, again, that scene is banking on our emotional investment in different versions of these men. And then it's sort of smearing it, and the suggestion is that Bert knows more, or knows more about the company, understands that they were in love, potentially, and- but they're, it, it either, I mean, it could be that I'm not doing my best job watching this, or it could just be that there were scenes missing that could have helped buttress this, but there weren't time for them.

• 57:57Andy Greenwald?

  What, did anything in this ep- I'm gonna turn it back to you before we get out of here. Did anything in this episode, which I think is broadly being received as kind of like a, whoa, are they running out of time? Are they setting things up for the finale? This is not where you want to be for the penultimate-

• 58:09Chris Ryan?

  I think my hope for this-

• 58:09Andy Greenwald?

  Did anything hit you emotionally in this episode?

• 58:11Chris Ryan?

  Not emotionally, but I do hope that what we get is an integrated, reintegrated mark, so that we can have like, a POV character who is essentially the same person. I know that that goes against the sort of premise of the show, but I think, to your point about things only mattering to the audience and not to the characters, that has sort of lost its, uh, its impact for me. So it would be a lot more interesting if this detective scout goes back into the world that he wants so desperately to leave. On the inside of Lumen to find his, what, you know, to try and find Gemma. But that's like, that is literally the only thing. I don't really know, nor do I particularly care what cold harbors. There's not really a likelihood that they're going to come up with an explanation for what Lumen is doing.

• 58:54Chris Ryan?

  That cooks my pasta so bad that I'm like, damn, I was wrong about this show.

• 58:59Andy Greenwald?

  I, I, I'm going to just double down on what I said last week, which is, I think that they're, the labor, no child birthing center, pun intended, of this season does seem set up to destroy the restrictions of the paradigm that they established in season one to, because they cannot make a show.

• 59:18Chris Ryan?

  About people sitting at computers.

• 59:20Andy Greenwald?

  That is upstairs, downstairs.

• 59:21Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 59:21Andy Greenwald?

  Different people sitting at computers. They're going to break those walls and ceilings down. And that is why we're also seeing hero redemptive narrative arcs for Milchick and for Kobell. And that is going to be.

• 59:30Chris Ryan?

  Us versus them.

• 59:31Andy Greenwald?

  On a different, literally level than we've seen it before, which could, could have better creative returns. I'm, I'm open to that.

• 59:38Chris Ryan?

  Let's see, let's see what they, they wrap it up with. Andy, it's great to see you today.

• 59:42Andy Greenwald?

  Great. Thanks for making me watch TV.

• 59:43Chris Ryan?

  Thursday, we're going to be talking about the pit and some Philly shows. Deli Boys, Long Bright River and Dope Thief are all out. Maybe Andy will watch more adolescence. It sounds like he's got a, a full work week for himself.

• 59:53Andy Greenwald?

  I've got a busy week.

• 59:54Chris Ryan?

  Uh, thanks to Kai, thanks to CT. We are out of here. Talk to you soon.

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