144. Dr. Mao Shing Ni: Fertility Optimization, Egg Freezing, and Menopause as "Second Spring"

Fertility is declining while menopausal symptoms are appearing earlier. Metabolic dysfunction, chronic stress, and environmental exposures are reshaping reproductive health for both women and men. In this episode of Extend, we sit down with Dr. Mao Shing Ni, co founder of Tao of Wellness and Yo San University of Traditional Chinese Medicine, to unpack how Eastern medicine and modern science can work together to optimize fertility, support egg freezing outcomes, and reframe menopause as a powerful Second Spring. We break down sympathetic versus parasympathetic signaling, how stress suppresses ovulation, why metabolic health drives PCOS and sperm quality, and how acupuncture, targeted herbs, infrared therapy, and nutrition strategies can increase live birth rates and extend hormonal vitality. We also explore how tools like continuous glucose monitoring, berberine, GLP 1 support, Tai Chi, sleep optimization, and strategic hormone therapy can shift reproductive biology at any stage, from preconception to menopausal transition. Dr. Mao Shing Ni, DOM, PhD, LAc, is a 38th generation doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine with over 40 years of clinical experience in integrative longevity, reproductive, and anti aging medicine. He is the bestselling author of more than 20 books, including Secrets of Longevity, co founder of Tao of Wellness and Yo San University, and an internationally recognized speaker in reproductive, hormonal, and longevity medicine. What We Discuss: (00:00) Fertility Decline and Earlier Menopausal Symptoms (06:05) Stress, Cortisol, and the Reproductive Axis (13:03) Foundational Fertility Protocol: Diet, Sleep, and Exercise (16:26) Key Supplements and Herbs for Egg Quality (22:46) Acupuncture and Live Birth Rate Data (26:00) Tai Chi, Qigong, Massage, and Blood Flow Optimization (30:48) Metabolic Health, GLP 1, and Ozempic Pregnancies (31:34) PCOS as a Metabolic Disorder and CGM Strategies (33:41) Male Fertility, Testosterone, and Sperm Quality (37:39) Hormone Replacement Therapy and the First Five Years of Menopause (40:19) Gut Health, SIBO, and Hormone Conversion (46:27) East West Collaboration in Longevity and Reproductive Care Thank You to Our Sponsors: Nexthealth: NextHealth: Your destination for cutting-edge health optimization—from IV therapy to hormone balancing. Explore at https://www.next-health.com/ Learn more about Dr. Shah: Website: https://www.drshah.com/ Clinic: https://www.next-health.com/ Instagram:@darshanshahmd https://www.instagram.com/darshanshahmd/ Learn more about Dr. Mao Shing Ni Website: https://www.taoofwellness.com/ Website: https://askdrmao.com/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Welcome to Extend with me, Dr. Darshan Shah, a podcast dedicated to cutting-edge science, research, tools, and protocols designed to help you extend your health span. Having become one of the youngest doctors in the country at the age of 21, and trained and board-certified at the Mayo Clinic, I've accumulated three decades of practice as a board-certified surgeon and longevity expert. Over that time, I've discovered that a mere 20% of health knowledge yields 80% of the results when it comes to your health span. We're living in a new era where we are creating a new healthcare system, no longer focused on disease management, but achieving optimal health and vitality. Join me as I interview world-renowned experts, offering you a step-by-step guide to proactively avoid disease, and most importantly, extend your health span.

• 0:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  More women than ever are being told in their late 30s and early 40s that their fertility is declining. Yet, many of them are also being told that their labs look normal. So, why do they feel like their body's off? And why can't they have kids? In this episode of Extend, I'm joined by Dr. Mao Xingni. He is a 38th-generation doctor of traditional Chinese medicine. He's a founder of a leading school of Chinese medicine right here in Los Angeles, and a pioneer in integrative fertility and longevity care. Dr. Mao explains why Chinese medicine often identifies the same imbalances that shorten fertility years before they show up in standard blood work, using diagnostic tools like tongue analysis, pulse diagnosis, and facial mapping.

• 1:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Dr. Mao and I are going to explore why the late 30s to mid 40s isn't a fertility deadline, but a critical hormonal transition. And how addressing stress, metabolism, circulation, and nervous system signaling early can either extend reproductive potential or dramatically improve the quality of menopause. This conversation is going to show how integrating Eastern and Western medicine create a far earlier, more personalized approach to fertility, hormonal health, and long-term vitality.

• 2:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Dr. Mao, it's such a pleasure to finally get you on the podcast.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Thank you, Darshan. This has been long coming and you know, we've been talking about it for...

• 2:18Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You're right down the street, but you are so busy. I mean, you are one of the foremost Chinese medicine doctors in the world, I would say. You run a school of Chinese medicine. You have a very busy clinical practice. I mean, I know you treat a lot of celebrities. You have a lot of people flying from all over the world to come and see you. So it's incredible what you've done.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Well, you know what? I just feel like it's been such an opportunity to serve, really. Ultimately, it's, you know, it's what I love. I love to being, you know, being of service and make a difference in people's lives. Yeah.

• 2:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I could tell that for sure. And you've, we have so many things that we could talk about because you can, you talk about so many things from longevity to psychedelics, to women's health, to men's health. And so I'm excited to dive in today on one of those topics with you, which you've just recently wrote a book on, Second Spring.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, actually, it's not a recent book, but it's, you know, it's, it's very topical now. Okay?

• 3:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly. When did you write this book, by the way?

• 3:19Speaker 01

  Well, let's see, let's see, published by Simon Schuster, maybe about a little less than 10 years ago.

• 3:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, okay. You've written so many books. You're a prolific author, dude. I don't know how you fit all this in.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Well, but, but actually, you know, like, like I've, for example, I have Secrets of Fertility that I brought with me. That's a fairly new one.

• 3:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  This is the new one, okay.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. And so, again, it's, it's, you know, these are the crossroads. And I love to talk about sort of, you know, women who come into our office in their late 30s, early 40s, and they really want to get pregnant. And now they're starting to have hot flashes, sweats, sleeplessness, mood changes, sometimes a menopause, and their numbers are changing. FSH is starting to go up. They are really panicked. Because, wait, I haven't had my kids yet. So this is, this is the population that we are seeing today. And then there's a second population that are women in their young thirties, actually, that are looking to freeze their eggs. Because they're not ready.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  They're, you know, in their career track, or they're not with a guy yet, or, you know, family, or it doesn't have to be a guy, but they just haven't had a partner yet, right? They identify. So they want to put it off, but they know that the eggs are somewhat dated, right? The younger you are, the better. So they'll go in and do an egg freeze session, they'll get three. Three, that's, unfortunately, that's not enough. That's not enough, right? I mean, ideally, you want to have twenty or more in the, in the bank. And so they have to do multiple times. And it's very expensive, and it's very on the body. So we're also getting patients coming in, like, hey, Dr. Mao, can you optimize? You know, so that I can have more yield. You know, more eggs, better quality.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  And that's really the bottom line is, how can we help women who are looking to enhance their fertility, right? And then also, population that are, you know, they're done with their families, so, but I just don't want to go through the miseries of the aging process of menopause, which is quite cruel. I mean, really. So, yeah, so we're, you know, we're really much, very much involved in these two distinct populations.

• 5:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 5:29Speaker 01

  And sometimes they're the same person that are going through it.

• 5:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, isn't it so funny how, not funny, but like, just interesting, how women are waiting longer and longer to have children, but also the age of menopausal symptoms is occurring at a younger age now.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so, you know, there's definitely societal macro kind of things that are going on that are making women wait longer, which I fully realize. And also, you know, I think a lot of it has to do with maybe even social media and the dating, though how dating has completely changed now to where women are just not meeting the right person, and men are not meeting the right person until later on in life. That happened to me, certainly, like, you know, I didn't have my first child until I was forty-two, and so we actually also had problems, you know, having children. And so, seeking out a fertility expert seems to be more of the norm now than it is the exception.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  You're absolutely right. It is interesting how societies move that way.

• 6:28Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 6:28Speaker 01

  And the good thing, the good news, of course, is that we do have the technology. And we also have this this understanding from eastern medicine, which is, you know, 5,000 years old. And I mean, we can we can prove just with our population that it is a successful medicine, right? It's, you know, fertility doesn't seem to be a problem. But but nevertheless, the older you are, the more challenging, you know, we're going to be dealing with.

• 6:54Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes, it's interesting. You know, a lot of people seek out eastern medicine for fertility issues. I think that's one of the main uses, probably, that you see people, right?

• 7:02Speaker 01

  It's interesting, because I think 50% of our practice is that, is women coming in to try and optimize. And yes, and, you know, I think the way we're framing this is that your body is changing, but it's not a it's not a deadline. You know, it's really a opportunity to signal your body properly. Because ultimately, our body can function for a long time. My grandmother had, I think she had 14, 15 kids. One didn't make it, but a lot of kids, right? And in her last one, she was 55 years old.

• 7:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  55 years old.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  55 years old. It was all natural, right? And so it's about getting your body signaled properly, like, hey, we're we're still in our reproductive stage, and let's optimize everything. And so, yes, so it's it's an opportunity. And I want, you know, like, listeners out there to really kind of not despair if symptoms of menopause starts to come on. But rather, just think about like, whether they're looking at fertility, or whether they're actually looking to transition gracefully through menopause and not experiencing that typical aging. It's an opportunity to basically, you know, signal your body properly, so that you can actually feel better. And if, in fact, you know, having

• 8:24Speaker 01

  kids is a goal you have, you can optimize that. You can increase the the chance of success.

• 8:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. So on the fertility side of Things, you know, we talked about women are freezing their eggs, right? And that egg freezing process, it's expensive, it's painful. And so you want to maximize the success of that, right?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 8:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so the amount of success you have with that has a lot to do with the number of eggs that are harvested during that procedure.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 8:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Which is low because of what? Why are women experiencing lower and lower egg harvest rates now than ever before?

• 8:58Speaker 01

  There's a multiple factors. Obviously, there's not one thing that we can point to that's actually lowering the numbers. But what we do know is this, is that many more women, young women today are developing conditions like, I mean hormonal imbalance, like PCOS, polyps, ovarian syndrome, endometriosis, and other kind of conditions. And so, you know, a lot of it actually is diet and environment, right? So environmentally, there's a lot more estrogenic type of foods, you know, processed foods is an example. And then also perhaps the drugs that they're taking, you know, a lot of women are also starting very early with, you know, birth control pill.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  And it's basically sort of kicks a can down the road. You may have issues already, but let's ignore it until you're ready to do something about it. And then you get off the pill and you're like, okay, I'm ready to egg freeze and I only get three or two or one. And that's just disappointing. It's just heartbreaking when they see, why is my body failing, right? And so, and then the stress, if we look at what's happening with stress, stress is a signaling, right? If we look at our human body, we have an autonomic nervous system, which essentially helps us survive. So the survival mode is the sympathetic. And, you know, the rest and restore and digest mode is a parasympathetic.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  Well, I would guarantee you, and I see this all the time clinically, that majority of our patients are in the sympathetic mode all the time.

• 10:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Their survival mode all day long, right?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  They're running away from whatever's able to tiger they're running away from. But what that's going to tell the body is this, is that we gotta survive first. So shut the reproductive system down. Because that's taking up resource. I need all the resource to allow me to run away or climb up a tree. And that's it. Yeah.

• 10:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. So the sympathetic nervous system is shutting down the reproductive system. And if you're living in that sympathetic state all the time.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You're not going to produce eggs. You're not going to be in a reproductive state. And so it's so, I think this is one of the critical factors that can help many women out there get pregnant. If that's what you're trying to do or have eggs.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  Is exactly, exactly. I mean, it's very simple. You know, we can explain it in science, right? The adrenal hypothalamic and ovarian axis, right? So this signaling process, you know, so when your adrenaline, you know, is rising, your cortisol is rising. The hypothalamus is going, whoa, there's a tiger out there. Don't even think about, you know, getting pregnant. And then it sends a signal to the ovaries like, okay, not this month, not this month. We're just going to reduce the amount of resources to you. And so, so I think combination of the factors, you know, there's not one thing, but a combination. But, but even men's sperm, I mean, you know, we gotta admit that over the last 30 years,

• 11:54Speaker 01

  the male sperm has decreased by 50%, 50%.

• 11:58Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  And if we keep going in this direction, I, I think we're going to have a problem. And, and we're seeing, actually populations are dropping, not, not increasing.

• 12:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  No, exactly. For the first time ever, you know, they're predicting population decline of this decade. And so that's, that's a huge potential issue because as a population declines, usually the decline is happening in younger individuals, not older. The older population is living longer.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So the entire population is also going to move towards an older average age.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Which is an issue, right? We gotta keep having babies.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Well, yes, of course. I mean, I think, you know, maybe robots one day will take over all the work that needs to be done, but we still need young people.

• 12:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  We still need young people, exactly.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  And, and, you know, us, I mean, think, think about it, right? We're coming into our prime age, right? I mean, like, in our parents' generation, maybe prime was like, maybe thirty? In, in our lifetime, the prime is like sixty and seventy. Like, you, you can still climb Mount Everest if you want to, right? If you know what to do. Well, if you know what to do to really enhance your functions.

• 13:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right, exactly. So a woman comes into your office and she's, you know, thirty-five years old. She's like, I want to go freeze my eggs. Or she's thirty-five years old and she's like, I want to get pregnant. What are some of the things you talk to her about?

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Well, first, you know, I, I think we look at the basics. Let's look at your diet. Let's make sure that you're eating a diet that's supportive for your goals, whether you're, you know, really enhancing your fertility or, you know, looking to freeze your egg. There are certain foods, I mean, like, for example, protein-rich foods, omega-three fatty acid-rich foods. I mean, again, these things will help, right? Sugar will definitely not help.

• 13:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  No.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Alcohol, in fact, you know, it's, it's kind of interesting because there's been so much studies now that show not, unfortunately, that any amount of alcohol is good for your health.

• 13:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yes. It used to be like, oh, a glass of wine or two is okay, but now, and we know that, you know, alcohol can destroy the, and change the DNA and, you know, create DMA fragmentation of the egg and the sperm, so not a good thing. So diet is very basic.

• 14:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Okay.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Secondly is rest. Are you getting enough sleep? Because, again, if you don't get enough sleep, you're naturally going to be high in cortisol. And that cortisol is signaling the body and thinking, okay, it's a survival, we're not going to do it, right? Not this month.

• 14:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  And, and stress management, of course. And finally, exercise. Believe it or not, the right kind of exercise can be very helpful, just the right amount.

• 14:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  But too much, then you have to decide, is the body thinking you're running away? What's happening here? Like, you know, women sometimes... Times go out there and they're pumping iron, they're doing CrossFit. I'm not saying CrossFit's bad, but they're doing it, you know, like really high intensity. And again, at some point, the body is going to be signaled incorrectly. So it's more like, you want to get pregnant? Let's, you know, let's go to the cave, let's load you up with lots of food and put a big rock against the opening so you're safe. And you can, you know, kick off your shoes and get pregnant.

• 15:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so what you're talking about is reducing sympathetic activity throughout the day, increasing parasympathetic time. And that can be done through many techniques. One is reducing high intensity intermittent training or just high intensity training. Secondly, is finding time to rest, relax, feel safe, et cetera.

• 15:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Meditation, for example. I mean, we like, you know, we regularly provide our patients downloads, put it on your phone. We have a special fertility meditation. We have a stress release meditation. So, you know, all kinds of different things that people can do to help.

• 15:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. And so taking it one step up from the basics, then, what are some of the other maybe nutritional supplementation or herbals that we can use to help improve fertility? I know this is where Eastern medicine has typically had some solutions there.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Right. Well, so, I mean, we do personalize it for every patient because everyone's a little different. And so we have to also look at their labs and see if their FSH is too high, LH. Sometimes someone has high prolactin. Usually we look at the pituitary because there might be a little benign tumor that we have to take care of. But, but there's a number of things that we look at so personalized. But you can say in general, for example, if you look at supplementation, vitamin D is very critical. It regulates hormonal function and does, you know, contribute to fertility. A CoQ10, coenzyme Q10, it's an antioxidant. So if you're thinking that, you know, some of the issues has to do with DNA fragmentation

• 16:44Speaker 01

  from environmental toxins, maybe alcohol and other things, then that could also help too. Right? So these are some of the very basics. Of course, omega three is always a good thing. And then from a herb side, for example, there's a herb called Angelica root, which is called Danque, sometimes also called the ginseng for women, right? And it's probably the most important herb for fertility. Because it regulates menses, regulates hormones and help enhance ovulation process. The other one would be Astragalus, which is an overall, I mean, you probably talk about this, adaptogen, right? So as an adaptogen helps you actually with stress regulation. And so that's another good thing.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  So, but there's, I mean, we use like 450 herbs.

• 17:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I know.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  And then we custom.

• 17:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have a pharmacy and we custom blend for every patient.

• 17:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 17:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I love that, that you have all the herbs there and you create custom blends and mostly in like tea form for people, right?

• 17:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, I mean, we can make capsules too, but you know, like the teas are the easiest. We extract them into powder and so we combine the formula, anywhere from 12 to 15 different herbs. Because, you know, they might be having sleep issues or they might have hot flashes or they might have low libido or, you know, there's all kinds of issues. So we kind of put it all together into one formula.

• 18:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  And then that's changed depending on what's going on. And yeah, make a tea, you know, little espresso shots. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's good. Most of our patients are really very willing to take it, even if it doesn't taste great.

• 18:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes, and I think what's really cool too is you do this via telemedicine as well, right? You don't have to come to California to the clinic.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 18:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You can still go to your website and speak to somebody and have a custom herbal solution made for you and what your goals are and what your biology is at that moment in time.

• 18:35Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, we do. And we regularly collaborate with their GYN and their reproductive endocrinologists and other, so that we can really be on the same, same page, right? So, yeah.

• 18:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So can I ask you, what are some of the secrets of fertility that you write about in the book? Beyond this?

• 18:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Or do we have to buy the books?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're making me give away all the secrets in the book. Then they won't have to buy the book anymore.

• 19:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Give us one.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's interesting. If anything, let's think for a second, right? What is, we recognize that there's an energy in every food. Energy in every food. So let's think about for a second, like broccoli, you know, an egg or, you know, a piece of bread. Obviously nutrition a little different, but we go beyond that. Chinese medicine recognize energy. So, you know, broccoli, fine. It's got fiber, it's got all kinds of vitamins, great, okay. But, you know, it's, it's, it's a plant, doesn't do a whole lot for your fertility. And not that it's bad for you, but it's fine. A piece of bread with wheat, yeah, it's got, you know, maybe if you're lucky, you get 10% protein with American wheat.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  You know, heirloom wheat, you get 20, 30%, whatever. It's a carb and so it's going to signal you very differently. But an egg is interesting, right? You're looking at optimizing eggs.

• 20:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  So I'm going to pose this question to you. What do you think is more potent energetically for fertility? A chicken egg, an ostrich egg, or a caviar?

• 20:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I will go with a chicken egg.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  Interesting, and why?

• 20:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I feel that when you look at those, when you look at fish eggs versus animal, bird eggs, right? The fish eggs are small, they're very energetically different than us as humans. But the birds, they have the most energy and chickens probably reproduce a lot more than ostriches. I'm just making all this up as I'm talking to you.

• 20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, actually, it's interesting you say that because it's, it's true to a certain degree. Because what animal do you know that can lay an egg a day without fail for three years?

• 20:48Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  Right? I mean, pretty remarkable, right? I mean, so there's a lot of growth factor. So you're right, chicken eggs, fine. But I also want to sort of appeal to you that one chicken egg and the same size, right? How many fish eggs can you fit into that spoon?

• 21:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I mean.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Probably a couple hundred.

• 21:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Two hundred, three hundred.

• 21:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I love caviar, so.

• 21:10Speaker 01

  Caviar, right. So think about it, like you have a life potential in each of those egg. Now you're eating three hundred all at once instead of one. How many chicken eggs can you eat? Well, five maybe, right? Yeah. And but look at the caviar, right? So so there is an idea behind like, oh, what's the energy potential for fertility in this one thing you're eating? Same thing, like a seed. A seed germinates into a tree as an example, right? So if you look at like a pine nut, right? Big pine tree. And so all the nuts and seeds. That's the secret. That's really one of the secrets. And you'll notice that nutritionally, they are fantastic, right? Yeah.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  I mean, besides the the omega threes, but there's a lot of vitamin E and other kind of wonderful nutrients. So, yes, so that's one of the secrets, like eat lots of seeds.

• 22:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 22:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And caviar being.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Caviar, yeah, exactly. It's a little expensive, but anyway, yeah.

• 22:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. But hey, if it works, it's less expensive than getting a egg donation done.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Well, yes, no, for sure.

• 22:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Or fertility treatments.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, fertility treatments, exactly, yeah.

• 22:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  What about acupuncture techniques in fertility? I know this was also suggested to us when we were trying to get pregnant.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, we've actually done studies. We we we collaborated very early on with reproductive endocrinologists and published studies on how acupuncture can increase life birth rate. So this is not just pregnancy rate. This is like life birth rate by forty to sixty percent.

• 22:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Forty to sixty percent.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  During IVF. So when you combine it, so this is that study pretty much kicked the door open for us to collaborate with reproductive endocrinologists all over the country. So now every reproductive endocrinologist will actually recommend to their patients like, hey, listen, I either have someone that comes to my office to do treatments for acupuncture or you can go see someone, right? And so this is this is. Incredible, and that study has been repeated a couple dozen times now, so.

• 23:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Incredible, so it's repeatable.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  It's repeatable, absolutely.

• 23:24Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And is there a special acupuncture technique people should ask for, or does acupuncturists?

• 23:29Speaker 01

  No, no, no, it's a special protocol. We have a whole doctorate program.

• 23:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  You know, this is a postdoc program in our school.

• 23:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  School, Yosan University of Traditional and Chinese Medicine. We have a, we have the nation's only postdoc program on reproductive medicine. You know, it's two years additional to getting licensed and getting a doctor. Oh yeah, so they, so people spend extensive time studying these protocols. And because they are very unique and specific. You know, general acupuncture, okay, it's, it's good for enhancing general health and well-being. But, you know, if you're talking about something very specialized as fertility, this is a training that you, you should have.

• 24:13Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So interesting, okay, so if a woman is listening to this and they, first of all, just even the knowledge that acupuncture can increase your fertility rate by forty to sixty percent during fertility treatments. That's huge, I mean, that could save you so much money in the long term, having to go through one cycle versus two, three. I have friends that are going through four cycles of fertility treatments, it's crazy.

• 24:33Speaker 01

  I know.

• 24:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And I don't think they're doing acupuncture, so this is a fantastic data point.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  But also, understanding that the practitioner needs to have a special certification or postdoctoral training.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, and you know, there are like, there's a board that actually for reproductive medicine, that's, you know, kind of creates that kind of certification. As well as, you know, again, if you're a graduate of our program, yes, then you're definitely empowered to, to do that.

• 24:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Very interesting. And then, you know, I know part of what you've taught us, me and my group of people, is Tai Chi and movement techniques as well. Is there anything special there around fertility that people can consider?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, so think of that as mind-body.

• 25:15Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Connection.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Practice, right? My body, so, so you get into a frame of mind, you're breathing, you're focusing on different parts of your body, you know, particularly for fertility enhancement. And so it's a meditative movement, meditative exercise. And so we have actually designed fertility qigong practice. We have, you know, special Tai Chi programs specific for this. And there's also massage that we developed that you can do at home, right? To optimize the blood flow, nutrient delivery to ovaries and uterus, to build up lining, to help enhance ovulation process.

• 25:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow, and people can get all of this information? How can someone figure out what is the right Tai Chi, Qi Jiao massage? Is this, do you have videos on this?

• 26:04Speaker 01

  We do, we do have videos, but probably the first thing to start, just go to our website, Dao of Wellness, that's spelled with a T, Dao of Wellness dot com. So, and then from there you can be directed to all the things, the resources that we have.

• 26:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, incredible. Why would you not do this, right? If it can increase fertility even, forty percent is a massive number for people. So that's fantastic. And it sounds like all the things you're doing for fertility also applies to if you're donating eggs, correct?

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. But, but see, it's the interesting part, right? Is that we're talking about fertility, right? And yet we started our conversation about menopause.

• 26:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I know.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  Because everything we do for fertility helps, helps with, think about it, menopause, right? Because we're making you more fertile, that means we can extend your, your cycle that much longer. So instead of taking a bunch of hormones, you might be able, be able to get away without taking it, right? Because you're, you know, again, you don't have the hot flashes or sweats, you're sleeping fine. And you're experiencing the weight gain and low libido and all those things. So again, everything we're doing is optimizing your hormonal health. We're signaling your endocrine system, which is your hormones, your nervous system to be in sync.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  And so in this case, we have women who actually continue to cycle even into their early 50s and mid 50s, for example, naturally, without using any, any hormonal replacement.

• 27:32Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Wow.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I mean, and so, yeah, I mean, for, for the listeners, basically, menopause is a failure of the ovary to produce eggs and estrogen, right? So what you're saying, if you just continue the same pattern in your lifestyle, then it will decrease your symptoms of menopause, it'll keep you fertile for longer as well, potentially, but also just symptom reduction could also be achieved.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Most definitely. And so that's why, you know, when I wrote the book called Second Spring, which in Chinese medicine, you know, it's what a nice way of describing menopause.

• 28:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  I mean, second spring. It's like you get to live your second spring.

• 28:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  And that's exactly what we're doing. We're enhancing what it feels like to be a woman, right?

• 28:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  And help you reclaim your sexual identity, you know? And so as we, you know, as writing this book and I'm thinking, wait, all this, I'm writing, these advice applies to enhancing fertility. So then I decided, you know what, I better, you know, sort of get the book on fertility. My, my brother, actually, he's also a specialist in reproductive medicine and he has a book called Tao of Fertility. So anyway, so we, we, we're obviously been in practice together.

• 28:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Oh, I see.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Forty years, yeah.

• 28:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That's amazing. And so you're, what you're saying, there's really not a divide between fertility versus menopause, right? And so I see a lot of times, like, you know, women come in with menopausal symptoms and they're not even like, haven't they done having children yet, right?

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Good rights.

• 29:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And so they're freaking out.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:03Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Anxious about this. And so like, how do you talk women off a ledge on that? Like, they're not done having children, they wanna, you know, they're having menopausal symptoms, maybe they're missing periods, in fact. What are you, what are your thoughts there?

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Well, I explained that, look, this is what your body is going through. It's just a change, right? And so it's, well, we have to do is signal the body correctly. That's all. It wants to go one way and we tell the body, whoa, wait, we're, we're not gonna go that way. We're gonna get better, we're gonna enhance function, we're gonna signal everything properly. So that it's an opportunity to shift the direction. If you're heading down that way, we, we can, you know, we can reverse it, we can shift the direction that the body's going. The body's amazing. I mean, you know, you've been talking about longevity forever, but like, how much you can regenerate, it's pretty awesome, right? And the same thing, like with fertility, I mean, you can definitely extend that fertility potential out, yeah.

• 29:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, we see so many patients that come through here and we work a lot with fertility doctors as well. And when we start doing, you know, nutrient infusions, we start doing a lot of therapies that we have here at our clinics, they get pregnant, you know, it's correcting their metabolic health is another big factor that we do very well, I think, here, we're using continuous glucose monitors.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:20Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Even using some of the newer peptides like GLP-1.

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 30:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You know, we've had a lot of, what do you call those, ZMP babies, you know, because finally their metabolic health is better, which takes their cells out of such a stressed state and they get pregnant.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  You're absolutely right. Couple of years ago, in, you know, we have an annual integrative reproductive medicine symposium through our school, and so I presented on that very topic, GLP-1, and the kind of like natural equivalence of it and what, you know, how that can really change for some of these women who have metabolic health issues, they could really benefit from.

• 30:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. What are some of the natural equivalents of GLP-1s that you're using?

• 31:01Speaker 01

  I would say probably the most common one is berberine.

• 31:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  And so it has a similar kind of action of stimulating GLP-1 production.

• 31:12Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Got it, got it. So, I mean, there's a lot of things here. How do you put this together in a protocol for women when they come and see you? I know it's very personalized, but in general?

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, in general, when someone comes in, we would evaluate them, right? We do a first consult, we'll look at their labs, we look at ultrasound, if, you know, if there's cysts and other things that we need to take care of. A lot of times there's, you know, issues like fallopian tubes blocked, we need to rule that out, there's fibroids that we need to shrink, I mean, so there's a number of things, right? But we clear the deck. So we, after our assessment, then we can give the patient a kind of an individualized approach, and then we'll give them a nutrition plan, which includes not just what to eat, what not to eat, but also, you know, some of the herbs and supplements they can take, and then the acupuncture protocol, sometimes body work, we'll use infrared. Infrared's a really interesting thing for, because it really does increase blood flow

• 32:06Speaker 01

  to the uterus and to the ovaries.

• 32:08Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So how do you apply the infrared? How does that work?

• 32:11Speaker 01

  Well, we have a whole, I mean, we have a kind of a igloo that the patient gets in with the head outside, and so it's a 360 infrared that they do in our office. In the old days, we used to heat an herb called mugwort, called moxibustion. And you know, what happened is at some point it starts to smell like cannabis. And like, wait, wait, wait, wait, we're not like smoking cannabis in office, but it smell like it. And it was a lot of smoke. So we just, we went to infrared and it actually worked better.

• 32:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You went high tech to infrared, it worked better anyway.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 32:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, because he does promote blood flow, obviously.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  For sure. But the interesting thing is we don't use it for men because we know that heat kills the sperm.

• 32:52Dr. Darshan Shah?

  The sperm, right, absolutely.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  So I'm gonna send him over here for cryotherapy.

• 32:56Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  They can go in for, you know, two minutes and get their, you know, sperm scrotum kind of, you know, cool down.

• 33:05Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I mean, and that's an interesting piece to add to this conversation. I mean, we focused on women the entire time, but what should the man in the relationship be doing to promote fertility if they, if they're trying to have a child together?

• 33:17Speaker 01

  That's such a great idea. I'd love to come back and talk just about male, male sexual health and male, you know, like this kind of andropause issue, right? Because, you know, we have patients who come in and they're in their 30s and they're still already doing testosterone because they're going to the gym and they're bulking up and their testicles have shrunk, like half of the size. I said, guy, don't take the testosterone. You're signaling your body incorrectly.

• 33:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  If you want to make more sperm, don't do that. So, so yeah, so then we tell them, look, heat is a big killer of sperm. So just, you know, the typical, you know, don't wear jeans, tight pants and, and then, you know, like no hot showers, no hot baths, of course, avoid alcohol and all that. But there are also the similar kind of nutritional plans that we do that, you know, can enhance sperm health and all that. But like I said, I, you know, I think we can do a whole segment just on the guy. And I think the guys deserve a whole section, you know, whole segment because, I mean, we're only talking about women here.

• 34:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's an important piece of the conversation for the women that are listening to this, trying to get pregnant, to bring the man into the conversation, obviously, because they need to do, they're 50% of the problem usually.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  They are 50% of the problem. Takes two to tango.

• 34:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, because just because a woman has low egg count, also, there's a high chance the man has low sperm count, and we see that very frequently. That you have to address both sides of the issue, right?

• 34:48Speaker 01

  You know, the funny thing is, it's not just the amount, right? Because it only takes one sperm.

• 34:53Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 34:54Speaker 01

  But most of the sperm is lazy. They're not, so motility is so slow, or they're going in circles, which is not going anywhere.

• 35:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, right, right.

• 35:02Speaker 01

  And, or defects, like morphology, right? They're like, the head is defective, neck defective, tail, and now you're down a 1%

• 35:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  of normal. So now you've taken your 100 million sperm down to 1 million that's normal, and there's a reason why we need a lot of sperm to make it happen, is because, you know, more the merrier, right? You optimize your chances, so. But anyway, yeah, no, the guys need to really be part of the conversation when it comes to fertility, for sure.

• 35:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And we do need to do an entire episode just on andropause and other ways to treat this, because I think you're right. I mean, I think there's, a deficiency of testosterone is occurring population-wide in the Western world, for sure. You can see this in the levels that are being measured at labs, they're about 200, 300 points higher just five decades ago than they are now on the average. So the actual normal level has been come down on the lab work, because on a population basis, the whole level has come down. It's a big problem, and I think, you know, we have a lot of people seeking testosterone replacement therapy, but there's so many other things that can be done, lifestyle, that can be done with nutritional supplementation, et cetera, right?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Acupuncture, for example, where we can stimulate testosterone production, naturally, with no side effects.

• 36:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Have you done research on that, on testosterone?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, no question, because acupuncture can improve testicular function, and so that's the key to increasing sperm production and testosterone production.

• 36:23Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So interesting, yeah. And so, yeah, and so I think that's something that people really need to consider, men need to consider, when they're trying to improve their testosterone levels.

• 36:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

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• 37:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  a longevity optimization plan using advanced tools like ozone, plasma exchange, and peptides. Go to www.nex.health to check it out.

• 37:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  How do you talk to women about hormone replacement therapy? Because that's becoming much more, I mean, you know, for years, we've had this Women's Health Initiative that was misinterpreted and women were not offered hormones at all for fear of causing cancer. And now, this year, finally, we're seeing kind of a reversal of the conversation at, you know, the Washington DC level, where they took the black box warning off of estrogen replacement therapy. And so, how does that fit into your overall algorithm of menopause?

• 37:59Speaker 01

  Yes. No, we work with it. Like, let's, for example, I mean, there is still a small subgroup of women who, let's say, have estrogen-positive receptor breast cancers. You don't want to take estrogen. People who are prone to blood clots and so forth. So, yes, so let's, you know, with, you know, with, if you take precautions, maybe you can be okay with it. But for the most part, you're absolutely right. You know, there's concrete studies now show that first five years of menopause is where the sweet spot is. And taking just a little bit enough to head off, you know, heart disease and osteoporosis and brain decline and so forth is helpful.

• 38:43Speaker 01

  Now, we also have natural ways, obviously, through the fertility work we do, to enhance your own production. So instead of taking exogenous hormone, right, whether it's through a patch, or gel, or oral, we can naturally have your body produce more. And that's really where we can also do the same. And we'll measure their estradiol number, and it's like, wow, it's as if you're still 35, for example, right? So we can get the level back up naturally without... So women will opt to either take the estrogen, or take lower dose because we're working with them, or not take it because we can do the same thing over the course of the first five years, at least, to help them. And that's part of the, sort of, you know,

• 39:28Speaker 01

  sort of menopausal care that we do, right? We don't, again, we call it second spring because we are trying to help you re-experience your youthful vitality.

• 39:40Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Sure.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  And how do you do that? Your hormones have to come back.

• 39:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, like, seriously, like, I mean, you know, a lot of women... Oh, actually, a lot of guys will come in and says, you know, "My wife's going through menopause and she has no libido." And that's a very serious thing, right? And then so we start working with her, and suddenly, like, you know, he's like...

• 39:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So you're optimizing the testosterone, too, to bring libido back?

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Both, exactly, exactly. And the guy's coming back and says, "Oh, man, whatever you're doing, keep doing it."

• 40:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, they're happy about it.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  So, yeah, yeah.

• 40:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So, I mean, you know, I've recently read some studies that a lot of the estrogen conversion from inactive form to inactive actually happens in the gut as well. And there's some gut bacteria that do that inactivation of estrogen. And so the gut microbiome also changes as we age.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:29Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And that might have a lot to do with the reduction in hormones through menopause as well.

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, it's multifactorial. It's not like one thing, right? But we do, we do recognize, you're absolutely right, some studies on that, that, you know, over time, you kind of need to reset your gut. I get, I mean, one of the more common problems I get is SIBO, right? Small intestine back to overgrowth, they're bloated, they're gassy, and they're constipated, whatever. All the time, we reset it. You know, we, we, we, a lot of our patients don't want to take Xifaxan, the omicin, the typical cocktail for SIBO. And we do our herbal and nutritional and acupuncture cocktail, and they feel great. You know, reset. And so then they are able to convert testosterone again.

• 41:14Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. I, I think SIBO is a really underdiagnosed problem. And there's not a lot of tools in traditional medicine other than one antibiotic that you can take potentially. So it's really good to also consider some eastern medicine therapies that you can put together for people to help with SIBO. Yeah. And then can I also ask you, you know, you mentioned a little earlier about PCOS. And I think this is also a big underdiagnosed, underrecognized problem. Can you talk a little about PCOS and what it is and how you approach it?

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. So polycystic ovarian syndrome. Essentially, the symptoms are usually a woman will begin to form cysts on her ovaries. And they, they start early. They start in their teenage years and into their twenties. Sometimes may also include acne outbreak, which is, you know, really depressing for teenagers. And so instead of really diagnosing the PCOS and looking at the root of it, they take Accutane, which is not so good, right? Because there are side effects. I mean, it's, it works, but, you know, high doses of vitamin A can be toxic, right?

• 42:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Can be toxic, right?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and then also antibiotics, which is also, you know, not getting at the root of it. So, but this problem is actually a metabolic problem.

• 42:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  It's an insulin problem. Oh, yeah.

• 42:30Dr. Darshan Shah?

  So besides this acne, there's weight gain.

• 42:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, weight gain, yeah.

• 42:33Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, exactly.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely, weight gain, hair on the body.

• 42:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Teenagers struggle with this, right? Like, hirsutism, too much hair on the body, weight gain, acne. And it's really depressing. So then they, then they get depressed. They have mood disturbances as well, you know, it spirals out of control almost.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 42:50Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  And, uh, and, and many of them are medicated with the pill, right? The control, birth control pill.

• 42:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Which sort of does control it, but again, you're kicking the can down the road. You're not dealing with the real problem.

• 43:01Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  But it's a metabolic problem. So what we need to do is to get the body to signal correctly, insulin resistant. So they're producing insulin, but insulin, the cells are not opening the doors to take the sugar in. So sugar builds up and then that has all kinds of ramifications for ovulation, cyst formation and all these, you know, weight gain and other symptoms that you have.

• 43:22Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  And so we do work with them. Diet is very important.

• 43:26Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Hmm.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  The, the CGM, the continuous glucose monitoring is very powerful.

• 43:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Because it will show them like, whoa, what you just ate just, you know, really shot up my, my, my glucose. So you gotta really, so, so it's an educational process for these young adults. And it's, you know, again, we're happy to say we're able to actually balance majority of the patients that we see.

• 43:51Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  And especially from a fertility standpoint of view, so.

• 43:55Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, I love it. I, CGM is a great tool for PCOS. And also I've seen a lot more people using GLP-1s also for PCOS now as well.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 44:04Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And the natural ways of, um, if you don't want to take a GLP-1 injection, berberine.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:09Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And other, even just like dietary interventions, like doing a little bit of vinegar before you eat sugary food can help too, right?

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also 10 squats after you eat.

• 44:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  10 squats, exactly.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Squats, yeah.

• 44:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Squats are so powerful for so many things.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 44:25Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. Hey, it was, you know, very few people ever even squat for anything nowadays and.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  No, no, I mean, like, you know, I tell my patients, I mean, most of them come in with back pain.

• 44:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  I said, don't pain at your back, pain your knees.

• 44:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, but their knees hurt, but.

• 44:41Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I was talking to a patient the other day and I was so surprised at this. He had a bunch of plaque build up in his arteries. This is a male and he was 50 years old and his cardiologist actually told him. He asked cardiologist, what can you do to reverse all this plaque? He's like, well, you can eat a Mediterranean diet and get in high doses of statins or you can do 30 squats a day. And obviously he changed his diet. He refuses statins and he did the 30 squats a day. And within, you know, a couple of years, his cardiovascular disease had reversed. It's that powerful to doing squats. And so it's a, I think it's a forgotten kind of activity in the Western world. But in the Eastern world, like in India, in China, like people squat all the time. They like eat a meal.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I mean, you know, and we have squatting toilets. I mean, not favorable in the West. But, but yeah, I mean, we use our legs all the time. I mean, you gotta bend down to pick up things, right? And but today it's kind of amazing. I kind of watch, you know, like people who go around with one of those sort of trash can pickers.

• 45:46Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yes.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  You know, trash pickers. It's like, dude, man, like bend down, pick up the piece of trash. You know, like, no, I can't do that. I mean, I appreciate if they're back pain, but anyway. But that's part of the problem. If they do squats, they've had less back pain.

• 46:02Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right. And the opposite of squatting is sitting all day too. So staying mobile, getting off of your chair and walking is also incredibly important. Also probably very important for fertility, right? Is staying mobile.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah, movement, like I said, movement is key to health, really. I mean, ultimately, if, you know, our body needs circulation, you gotta move, right? But it's the right amount of movement. Too much over exercise, again, you have a different signaling property. So, yeah.

• 46:34Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You know, I feel like it's not intuitive for many people to consider Eastern medicine as part of an overall treatment protocol. I think a lot of times what happens in Western medicine is they'll see their primary care doctor and they'll say, you know, what else is there? And the doctor will say, well, there's nothing else there. You just gotta take this pill. And then maybe they have heard, maybe they hear this podcast and they ask their doctor, well, what about acupuncture? And then, you know, more than half the time, I think, there's gonna be some frank negativity or just there's no evidence behind blah, blah, blah, whatever, and they kind of dismiss it. And how do you respond to those types of, you know, advice that they're getting from their regular doctor?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, my advice is, first of all, the newer generation doctors coming out of medical school, they are all well versed. They've read the studies and so forth. So acupuncture is great. A lot of it is just doctors are so busy doing what they do, you know, attending metaconferences. Unless they're interested, they're not gonna read the studies on acupuncture. There's like 20,000 research citations on PubMed on acupuncture alone. 20,000, right?

• 47:45Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah. And people doing surgery with just acupuncture, no anesthesia.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Exactly. I actually participated when I was doing my postgraduate residency in China. I participated in a surgery, tonsillectomy, and, you know, with no anesthesia. But there's just, there's a lot of evidence. And it obviously works because, again, most things that don't work will not survive 5,000 years.

• 48:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  And it's still being used by over a billion people around the world today. And so, so it's one of those things, it's part of this educational process. I think in 20 years, we won't be having this kind of response because the sort of older generation doctors, the old school will have retired and the newer generation doctors, basically, they've been exposed and they go, yeah, this works.

• 48:36Dr. Darshan Shah?

  I agree.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  I mean, it works so well that even physical therapists are trying to co-opt acupuncture. What do they call it? Dry needling?

• 48:43Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Dry needling, that's right.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's like, okay, really? If it doesn't work, the PTs are not gonna, you know. I mean, so, exactly. So, so, anyway, so it definitely, there's strong evidence, lots of clinical data and so forth.

• 49:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, and I agree. I think that the evidence is pretty good that people should at least give it a try. Because the downside is very minimal, right? Like, if you try something and it doesn't work, the side effects of having a failed acupuncture, if you have, is nothing, right?

• 49:16Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 49:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  But at the very least, like, every time I go in for acupuncture, I feel like it was the best massage I've ever gotten. And they don't do massage you at all, but it just, that mental state, that deactivation of your sympathetic state is massive when you're in there, you know? And I think, and then, obviously, like, we've had extreme success with really good acupuncturists in our family, even for our kids. And so I think it's 100% should be part of what people consider as an overall part of their wellness routine, but also especially when they're going through a problem, like fertility issues, menopause, et cetera, those type of things.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, because we do train, so we have a master's and a doctorate degree program, accredited programs through our school, Yosan University. So, we actually functions primary care. So, we, so, yeah, so, many patients will consider it as primary care. So, they'll, we'll run the blood labs for them, and we'll do all the physicals and other things. And we collaborate, that's the key. We collaborate if they have a PCP we collaborate with, and, or specialists, and so forth. So, that's the beauty of it. We are part of the team, right? And it isn't that, oh, see us, don't see your PCP. No, not at all. See both of us, because we come from two different perspectives. And, you know, it's about getting the best of both worlds, east and west.

• 50:38Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  And so, that's where the beauty is.

• 50:41Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, that's the way the system works in India. So, my dad was a Ayurvedic physician, and the way we're Works in India is you have your Ayurvedic doctor and then you have your regular Western medicine doctor.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Correct, yes.

• 50:51Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And they work hand in hand. When you get sick, you go see the Western medicine doctor, they maybe prescribe you something. But then you always go back to your Ayurvedic doctor to make you potentially get off the prescription medication, right? And then if you have a surgery, for example, the surgeon will send you back to your Ayurvedic doctor for the healing post-operatively.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Right, exactly.

• 51:11Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And the Ayurvedic doctor functions as your primary care, your real primary care.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:16Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And then your Western medicine primary care is like your access to the hospital, almost. That's how they function in India.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  And I think, again, you know, I think to speak to what you just said, you know, like, what we do essentially is is supporting healthy, normal, optimum function.

• 51:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Whether it's Ayurvedic or Chinese medicine, it's it's all based in the idea that how can we prevent you from getting sick proactively? Let's change your diet, let's do this, let's do that. So you don't have to end up in surgery or whatever else, right? And so, so, so it's, it's a nice approach to have, you know, part as part of your team. If you're really serious about living a long life and, and maintaining wellness, you, you want to have a team. I mean, it's just like, you know, you wouldn't have a business without all the various functions, you know, the team members.

• 52:10Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Uh, it's the same thing. If you're gonna be living to a hundred, that's your goal, and you want to feel well. You want to get up every day with vitality and energy, you have to have a team to help you.

• 52:21Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Exactly, yeah. I'm a big, you know, I use this analogy all the time, become the CEO of your own health.

• 52:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:27Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And you become this, just like a CEO of a company doesn't manage a company with just one individual running the everything. You have a team approach.

• 52:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:35Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And each person in your team has a different function. So you have a nutritionist, you have a, maybe a.

• 52:40Speaker 01

  A trainer, maybe.

• 52:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Right, exactly. Someone for mental health.

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:44Dr. Darshan Shah?

  You have your Eastern medicine doctor, and so all of these together will keep you healthy.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:49Dr. Darshan Shah?

  And then a member of the team is like the disaster specialist, right? Which is your primary care sometimes, your Western medicine specialist.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Interventionist.

• 52:57Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah, you're interventionist. That's the way to think of it. Wow. Amazing. Well, Dr. Mal, you mentioned a few times, but I just want to make sure everyone knows, you've written many books on this, these topics. How can people find your books? How can people get your website again? And then the courses on your website also are very accessible for people that are trying to get pregnant, trying to freeze their eggs, or going through menopause, right? So please tell us a lot more about where we can get more information.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Tao of Wellness, that's spelled with a T, T A O, of Wellness.com. And through there, you could, you know, sort of get links to the product side, the video that you can download, and to the school if you want to. We have two offices in the LA area, Santa Monica, Pasadena. Our school is based in Culver City. And in quite a number of books, right? You know, The Secrets of Fertility, Second Spring, Ageless. But, you know, I think I'm probably best known for my Secrets of Longevity book, which has been in 22 languages. And anyway, it's.

• 54:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  It's a great. We gotta have you just for an episode on that, The Secrets of Longevity.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  I'm working on a book on men's health, actually. So that's my next one. Yeah.

• 54:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Okay. Well, you know, you're, we're gonna make you a regular guest, for sure. This is great information. And then, you know, last question I have for you is, for someone living in, you know, Tulsa, Oklahoma, Toledo, Ohio, how can they find a reputable vetted Eastern physician to help them through their, or Eastern practitioner to help them through their journey?

• 54:28Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, there's, there are directories that you can look up. You can visit acupuncture.com and to look at, you know, exploring directories of, and what you want to do is make sure they're licensed, number one. Number two, probably look at their experience, how long they've been in practice. Did they, you know, graduate from an accredited school and so forth? So those are basic. And then word of mouth referrals are always the best. And then I also have, you know, patients from Tulsa, Oklahoma, who are patients of mine on telemedicine.

• 55:00Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Telemedicine, right.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  You know, and then what I end up doing in a lot of cases is, let me find you someone locally.

• 55:06Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 01

  You know, because you can get, definitely get some benefit acupuncture wise. But I'll help you, you know, put the program together, and the herbs, and the, you know, the nutritional aspect and all that.

• 55:19Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Beautiful. I love it. Well, thank you so much for joining me today and giving some incredible information on this topic and with your unique perspective. Really appreciate you doing this.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  My pleasure. Thank you for having me on the show.

• 55:31Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Thank you.

• 55:37Dr. Darshan Shah?

  That was a great episode with Dr. Mao. He's an incredible wealth of knowledge. Here are my top five takeaways from that episode. Number one, normal labs might not mean that you're fully healthy. You might actually be late. From a Chinese medicine perspective, disease doesn't appear suddenly. It develops quietly over years. By the time traditional Western medicine laboratories can flag a problem, oftentimes the imbalance has been present for a long time. Number two, the late 30s and mid 40s is a hormonal inflection point, not a deadline. Hot flashes, insomnia, irregular cycles, anxiety, and brain fog are signs that

• 56:17Dr. Darshan Shah?

  fertility is over. They often reflect treatable imbalances in stress hormones, circulation, metabolic signaling. Addressing these early can either extend reproductive potential and dramatically improve the quality of menopause using the same underlying framework. Number three, stress signals the body that it's not safe to reproduce or to thrive. Chronic fight or flight suppresses fertility, accelerates aging, and worsens menopausal symptoms. When cortisol is high, the body prioritizes survival or reproduction. Calming the nervous system through rest, acupuncture, breathwork, and nutrition signals safety, allowing hormones

• 56:59Dr. Darshan Shah?

  to rebalance naturally. Number four, fertility is a 50/50 conversation. Men matter just as much. Declining sperm quality and testosterone levels are a major and often ignored contributor to today's fertility crisis. Heat exposure, stress, nutrition, and environmental toxins affect men just as profoundly as women. Chinese medicine and acupuncture can significantly improve sperm quality, making fertility a shared physiological responsibility, not just a female one. And number five, integration is the future. East for prevention, west for intervention. Eastern medicine excels at early detection,

• 57:42Dr. Darshan Shah?

  pattern recognition, and preventative care, while Western medicine is unmatched in acute and emergency treatment. True longevity comes from collaboration, not choosing sides. A team-based approach catches problems earlier, personalizes care, and supports long-term vitality instead of reactive disease management.

• 58:07Dr. Darshan Shah?

  Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Please remember to subscribe if you like this episode, and give us a good review, and share a link with your friends. It really helps to support all of our efforts. I also want to remind you that the information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your healthcare provider or physician before making any decisions or taking any action based on what you hear today, especially if you have any underlying health conditions or on any medications. Your doctor knows your personal health situation the best, and it's always important to seek their guidance.