Othering in the Odyssey; Liv & Michaela Chat Polyphemus the Cyclops

Liv is neck-deep in the Odyssey which means today she and Michaela chat Odysseus' travels, particularly Polyphemus and the 'othering' of the Cyclops. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Sources: Emily Wilson's translation of Homer's Odyssey. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

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• 2:14Liv Albert?

  We did it. Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby. And I am your host, Liv. And today, we're here with a very special, I'm slowly losing my mind, and so we're coming up with it creative ways to make episodes. And thus, I didn't even know how to finish that sentence. I started it, then I lost track because ADHD. I'm here with Michaela today. Hello. Hi.

• 2:45Liv Albert?

  So today, we're gonna do something a little bit different. I'm gonna vaguely explain it. This is what our plan is. So today, for the regular podcast, we are going to be talking about The Odyssey. Some interesting things that I have found while it slowly consumes my soul while I'm working on this book, and which I would love to ramble about with Michaela because I can't jam it into a children's book. You'll see why. And then, and to some of you, you'll hear all of this, or little bits and pieces, but we're really just teasing stuff. After we've had a little bit of a chat about The Odyssey, which is gonna go on the main podcast feed, so all of you now, you might be hearing it there. But if you're a patron on our Oracle Edition Patreon, then we're going to be answering a bunch of patron questions.

• 3:31Liv Albert?

  And all of this is also going to be available on video on the Patreon. So if you're not a patron, but that sounds appealing to you, having patron-specific questions answered by me and Michaela, and/or just watching us on video, head on over there and also get ad-free episodes of everything. And help us pay the bills. That's where we're at. So, this is me going, ah, how do I transition? Okay, so.

• 3:59Liv Albert?

  Thank you for just, yeah, sitting with me on this, Michael. The number of thoughts I've had while writing this. So like, to the listeners, you've probably heard me talking about it at this point, but like, I am working on a children's retelling of The Odyssey. And what that entails is obviously like, you know, heavily, heavily shortening The Odyssey into something that is, I mean, we're doing it, it's like for nine to 13 year olds, if I recall, and it's very illustrated. So I'm having to like drill down the text quite heavily. But on top of that also, you know, if I can't go into like context, like contextual depth on things, like, you know, I'm kind of having to remove a lot of it, mostly because I am not willing to like,

• 4:39Liv Albert?

  you know, talk about things without being able to do the context. It's very hard. But one of the things that keeps coming up for me is, well, I guess what the starting point is, the colonization that happens in The Odyssey, because obviously that's what I want to talk about. But like, I mean, I don't even know how to get into this, but like, the whole of The Odyssey is just about Odysseus, like going around and fucking shit up.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Well, and I mean, the thing is, like, the central, the central theme of The Odyssey is really Xenia, right? So this sort of

• 5:15Speaker 02

  guest friendship relationship that happens between people, not just on an interpersonal level, but on a visiting other cultures level. But it is entirely through the Greek lens of what of, you know, the ancient Greek lens of what that should look like. And I was thinking on this, because we mentioned, we were, you know, we agreed to do this. And I was sort of thinking on the ways it is portrayed and sort of the complexities of Homer, where, you know, in the Iliad itself, you know, it's not a

• 5:50Speaker 02

  Yay Greeks kind of story is a very like, oh, huh, look at them. Nobody who is good really. And you know, the Trojans are kind of trade more positive, way more positively. Yeah, exactly. Than the Greeks. But then I was, I was thinking about that sort of that double um view of it where you're looking at it's, it's not trying to say this is the right thing. And I was curious if that's happening in the Odyssey as well. And when I was just thinking on it more and more, and I think, I think there is something there where that idea of shoving your ideals on other cultures is and had that being sort of a Greek mindset. I think it is being critiqued in the Odyssey.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Especially when I look at um the other, not necessarily the Cyclops will get into that. I think that is still there, but all the other people that they meet on their way. I think it is very much critiquing the idea that our way is the right way. It's like, well, if you're in the Greek world, yes, but if you're in, you know, the world of the lotus eaters. Is it the right way? Or is that, do you, should you be expect, um, should you be

• 6:58Speaker 02

  respecting their culture, you know, when and now, yeah, kind of thing.

• 7:02Liv Albert?

  No, that's so true. And you're right. Like the, the Odyssey.

• 7:05Speaker 02

  Sorry, my cat just got fed.

• 7:07Liv Albert?

  That, that everyone was crow's food coming through his little automatic feeder. We love it. They all, he's pumped. Look at that little boy. He's like, this is my time.

• 7:20Liv Albert?

  But no, so, yes, the Odyssey so revolves around this idea of Xenia and because, you know, at the beginning, obviously the Odyssey opens, you know, with the four books that are referred to as the Telemachy, like they are the, you know, the story of we, we do get this early introduction to Odysseus, but in really minor detail. And then we jump straight into Telemachus and all of his whiny little bitching. And I won't go through all of that, but it does really get heavily into this idea of Xenia because we have the suitors in Ithaca. Trying to win Penelope and then Te- Telemachus goes, he goes to Nestor and he's, you know, has that Xenia relationship where he is welcomed. They have like a mutual sharing of things and, and general like.

• 8:05Liv Albert?

  Because it's really about sharing, it's about sharing gifts, but it's also about just sharing like yourself and this like very, it's about mutual respect, I guess is the simplest way to put it. It's about mutual respect and we get this like really clearly through the telemachy and then we get to Odysseus and it's interesting like I, I won't touch Calypso yet, I don't think because we're getting in seven years in when we first meet Odysseus. He's been there seven years and so everything is kind of already in the past. But then he gets and he lands on the, the land of the Phaeacians, right? Who show him really good xenia. They, there's like a really good example of he goes there, he is in need. They, you know, shower him with gifts. They hold these, this

• 8:49Liv Albert?

  big athletic games where everyone gets oiled up and naked and wrestles each other. Of course. And then, yeah, and then they have this like mutual sharing of stories and Odysseus shares his story. And what interested me like that really, that beginning, one of my favorite things is that Odysseus, when he begins his story, he basically begins by being like, hi, my name is Odysseus. Like, well, actually even backing it up. Like the best part is that first they have a bard, the Phaeacians have a bard who is, Odysseus who has not told anyone his name. They just think he's some stranger. Odysseus is like, hey, Demodocus, the bard, you're really talented. I would love if you sang the song of Odysseus and the Trojan horse.

• 9:31Liv Albert?

  And the bard is like, oh, I love you. What a great story. And he sings this whole story about the Trojan horse. And then Odysseus is like, we next see him and he's fucking crying and the king is like, dude, why are you crying? Like, he's like, this is a great story, but like, oh, not everyone likes it. Like something's wrong. Um, why don't you tell us what your name is? Like, you're gonna have to tell us where you're from eventually. We have to get you home tomorrow. And so Odysseus is like, hi, I'm Odysseus. You literally just sang a song about me. I'm incredibly talented at lying. Here's my story. Like that is what he opens it with. He's like, I am famous for my lies. Here's my story. And so you're immediately like, Well, like what of this is true, what is not? And that's so interesting.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  He's the first unreliable narrator.

• 10:13Liv Albert?

  Absolutely.

• 10:14Speaker 02

  I think, I think that is so fascinating about his character. I'm not, you know me, I'm not a huge Odysseus fan. I'm not a huge Odyssey fan, despite the fact that I, you know, my, the Odyssey is my fricking primary source for my thesis, but it's fine. It's fine.

• 10:29Liv Albert?

  The Odyssey is the best, even if Odysseus is a piece of shit.

• 10:32Speaker 02

  Truly.

• 10:33Liv Albert?

  The, the facts.

• 10:34Speaker 02

  It's, it's a very interesting way to introduce a character's story by reminding the audience, not just the, his audience within the story, but the audience who is us, listening to it, that he lies.

• 10:48Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  He, and he will lie to make himself, and I guess the Greeks, appear better. He is bare, that is, he is being honest about that. You know, it's the one truth he will tell us.

• 11:00Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Is that he's good at not telling the truth.

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Is he's good at lying, he's gonna lie.

• 11:05Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. And like, and then so for him to immediately launch into this story, which, okay, so I, I think it's great to, or a good idea to like, maybe go through each of these moments because they, they really say something interesting about Odysseus and Xenia and like the Greek culture of that period.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 11:24Liv Albert?

  Because like first up, we have, he, this, this bit is so brief and it's so interesting that it is so brief because he's like, so you know, we set off from Troy, we were headed home, but then the winds blew us off course. They blew us north to Ismarus, which is like on the coast of Thrace. So it's just north of Troy. It's out of the way. They get blown there and he literally says, um, okay, hold on, actually, we're not going to cut much of this because I don't, we don't have time. Um, but what he says is, okay, a blast, this is from the Wilson translation.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Beautiful.

• 11:58Liv Albert?

  A blast of wind pushed me off course towards the Kacones in Ismarus. I sacked the town and killed the men. We took their wives and shared their riches equally among us. Like that's, that's the whole bit. And then like he does go into, you know, they're, they're, you know, they've done all of that. They've sacked the town, killed the men, stolen the women. And then they're like feasting on the beach and Odysseus is like, we gotta go. But his, he says, he's like, I, I said, we had to leave. My crew was like, no, no, we gotta feast. We're going to enjoy ourselves. And then because they wait, the Cicones have time to have called in reinforcements and they get attacked and they lose a bunch of men.

• 12:38Liv Albert?

  And it's not great. And so then they, they do sail off and then sort of we're, you know, getting to the next step, which from there they get like this other, they get all the way to the coast of the Cape, Cape Malia, which is like the southernmost tip of the Peloponnese. So they get all the way to mainland Greece. They get pretty close. And then Odysseus says, once we hit Malia, another blast of wind drove us off course for nine days. And so that's where they next land on the land of the lotus eaters. And so, okay, so the, the Cicones, they don't even ask for Xenia. Xenia is not even like a question. He's like, and we do know also the Cicones are an ally of Troy in the war. So to Odysseus, he's like, well, we landed here. These guys were on the side of Troy.

• 13:23Liv Albert?

  Like, we're literally just going to kill the men and enslave the women.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:27Liv Albert?

  Period. And, and then, so it's, it's really not so much a question there. It's just like, this is just what we're doing.

• 13:33Speaker 02

  It's a reflection of the war they were just in. It is just a, it's a ripple effect of after the Trojan War.

• 13:40Liv Albert?

  Yeah, exactly. But what I, what interests me is that they don't go do it on purpose. They're like, we got blown there off course. So then we just killed everyone and burned the city.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Well, did they?

• 13:49Liv Albert?

  No, exactly, exactly. Right? Did they?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  Cause they keep getting, whenever they interact with these other cultures, they keep getting blown off course.

• 13:56Liv Albert?

  Exactly. And so it's like,

• 13:57Speaker 02

  An act of God pushed them away.

• 13:59Liv Albert?

  Well, and at this point, we know like Odysseus stayed in Troy a little longer. And so there's this idea that he gets a little cursed because various things had happened.

• 14:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:06Liv Albert?

  Because he stayed. Cause Agamemnon stayed too. Things don't go well for him. But it's, yeah, it's an interesting question of like, what is, what is the gods? What is Odysseus? What is random? Like, all of these things. Because then they do get to the land of the lotus eaters, which, yeah, is like ten days of traveling. And then they get to this land and he sends out his people to be like, okay, who's, who's living here? Like, can they give us anything? Like, you know, basically, he's asking, like, the people here, can we ask for Xenia? Can we be their guests and get this kinds of transactional, but equal relationship? And then when they don't show up, he goes to find them and his men have eaten the quote-unquote lotus, which is not lotus like we think of it.

• 14:50Liv Albert?

  The botanists and the historians think it was the jujube tree, which is fascinating. And, and I learned today in my searching for this information for the book, that it usually goes by the Arabic name of sidr. It's like S I D R. And also, though, a scientific name is the lot tree. Because you're like, well, it's still got that lotus connection. Anyway, the lotus makes these men completely forget who they are. And, and so Odysseus like drags them back. And so, once again, we don't really have this, like, interaction with Xenia, because it just doesn't have that sort of opportunity.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  And, and it's a Greek concept. It is. So, you know, the Phaeacians doing it shows that there is some sort of connection there. There is some sort of Greek influence there. I, you know, it could go either way. You know, it could have started in sort of that area, the Phaeacians era, and then moved to Greece, or Greece started. And then, you know, it's one of those things. It is a, and it's an, it's an indicator of who is and who isn't sort of under the same cultural umbrella.

• 15:49Liv Albert?

  Yeah, absolutely. And it does tend to be that people locate the land of the Phaeacians, which is called Skia, as Corfu, actually. So, it's also like not far off. But there's also like a whole curse that goes with them of, you know, they're Greek, but they're, yeah. It's interesting. But what interests me is that, like, because you're right, the Phaeacians have the Xenia sort of inherent. That does come more naturally to them because they're Greek. But what's interesting to me is that, like, in terms of the Kekones and the lotus eaters, there is no Odysseus seeking his side of Xenia.

• 16:22Liv Albert?

  Whereas when he gets to the Cyclops, he does. He expects Xenia from the Cyclops, but he doesn't. In the other cases, and I think that's because the Kekones, it, he's going to sack their seeds.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  Enemies.

• 16:33Liv Albert?

  It just doesn't count. He, he's at war with them. It doesn't count. And the Lotus Eaters, he doesn't encounter them. The men go, and technically I think they are given Xenia because they are welcomed and given food.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:44Liv Albert?

  That that food makes them forget where they're from.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Makes them high.

• 16:47Liv Albert?

  Exactly. But like technically, you know, I think that that would still qualify as them abiding by Xenia because they're given a gift. It just happens to be drugged up. Um, but then they go next to the island of the Cyclops and that's where things get colonial, imperial.

• 17:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:07Liv Albert?

  Just wacky. Hold on, I'm finding like, I want to read it because it is unhinged. And I'd actually sent quotes to Michaela here.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Oh, yes. Yes, you did.

• 17:18Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 17:18Speaker 02

  I remember.

• 17:19Liv Albert?

  Because, okay, so he, I'm going to read a decent amount of this. Don't come for me. It is Emily Wilson's translation. Um, okay. So he says, they reach the, the country of the reckless Cyclops. They, okay, I, I'm trying to decide what I, what I'm quoting or what I'm not, but essentially he, he's saying like, they trust the gods, um, but they don't plant food. Um, they don't, um, they, they're essentially his big complaint is that they're not like, oh, see that my brain is gone. I'm just going to read it. I'm not.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Good plan.

• 17:56Liv Albert?

  Quote, "They put trust in gods and do not plant their food from seed nor plow, and yet the barley, grain and clustering wine grapes all flourish there, increased by rain from Zeus. They hold no councils, have no common laws, but live in caves on lofty mountain tops, and each makes laws for his own wife and children without concern for what the others think." And so breaking that down, Odysseus is, there is like an outward xenophobia. That's, that's where I'm at with my pronunciation of Greek, is that I'm gonna do it with English words. There is an outward xenophobia in this, which is that he is, he is like critiquing how they live. But what's funny is to me, and I think this goes hand in hand with what you're saying, Michaela, which is that it is,

• 18:40Liv Albert?

  the Odyssey is intentionally critiquing these things.

• 18:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:44Liv Albert?

  Is that like, let's, okay, so they, they put trust in gods, but they don't plant their food from seed or plow. But barley grain and grapes all flourish there. So he's like, they don't, you know, ha- they don't farm like we would, and yet they have everything they need.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Well, and I also think what's interesting is that there is a reflection of what the land is capable of here. You know, like Ithaca itself, if we just look at Ithaca, Ithaca is rocky. It is, you know, it is, that's how it's described. It is not a very arable place. And most of Greece even today is not the most arable fruitful land. It can be done, and there are certain things that flourish well in those environments. But it's not as sort of, you know, fish jumping out of the waters, things, plants are just growing. Like I'm thinking like North America before colonization, like the way the land was just so fruitful is, was very strange to the European settlers who were coming over because they were like, what? You, you don't have to do anything and you have all this.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  And so it's giving, it's ringing that bell for me where it's like now he's in a different land and the land itself is capable of things that he is unfamiliar with. And so it feels like, you know, he, he says like, oh, this, they're, they're provided for. The gods give them rain and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all these things.

• 20:04Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  And it's more just like, there is a, you know, there's a vast difference in the actual geographical land. The Cyclops don't need to work as hard to have the same amount of food and resources available to them as the Greeks did, because. Their land is just capable of more.

• 20:24Liv Albert?

  Well, and I think like, yes, and, and I think what, what is really being, you know, dug at here is, is that, is the indigeneity to a land is the, is the like allowing a land to do what comes naturally and living off of that rather than forcing what you want onto that land. And it, and it like, to me, I mean, it, it, the land is a huge thing and it comes back. But also this obsession he has with them and laws is really interesting to me because he calls them lawless, like a handful of times. And he's talking like, okay, they don't hold councils, they have no common laws. They live in caves, whatever. But then simultaneously, because this is

• 21:07Liv Albert?

  what I think is so interesting, because he's so mad that they don't have laws and councils and whatever, and families like the Greeks, but at the same, in the same sentence, he acknowledges that it works. Like, he's like, they don't have common laws, they each make laws for their own families. And it's like, okay, so they have laws and it's working. And then he's also like, they, he's without concern for what others think. And it's like, okay, they're living happily in the way that they have decided.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Um, and I, this to just bring back another comparison to early settling in North, uh, North settler colonialism in North America, you know, British came over here, French came over here and they were like, oh, these people don't, they don't have, you know, our form of government or our laws, so they are lawless. And it's like, I, I hate to break it to you, but you know, there are so many different tribes and bands, nations across North America, and they all had various different forms of government.

• 22:07Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  It just didn't look like

• 22:09Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  the British government, the French government. And so it's, it's, there's a, there was a You know, it's that idea of our way is the right way. And you see that a lot in Greek um understanding, ancient Greek understandings of things. And especially in their myths, you know, like the older generations of the gods are wild and they are chaotic and they are of the earth and they're this this feminine energy to it and this monstrous. While the Olympians, you know, well, they have law and order.

• 22:39Liv Albert?

  Zeus is the supreme leader.

• 22:41Speaker 02

  Patriarchy and stuff. And so there's this heavy emphasis that comes into the Greek world on their idea of what law and order and civilization looks like. And that's not unique to Greeks as well. You know, that is a very, a hundred percent, there are nations in in Canada who felt that way too. And that's how, that's how conflict and wars start, you know, like you, you just feel your way is the right way.

• 23:08Liv Albert?

  Well, and the thing that I think stands out about this being Greek in this case, but you're right, it like it does apply all over for sure. Like this is human.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 23:16Liv Albert?

  But what makes this so interesting and like formative is the way that texts like this and Greek culture paved the way for quote unquote, Western civilization, right? Because like that's, that's the key difference. It's like, yeah, this is all very human. But the way the Greeks used it then became, and I don't even mean the Greek, like the Greeks had their own issues for sure. But like you said, like everyone had that. But then later, Western culture was built around this in a way that became like heavily problematic.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Because the West, the Western European cultures, look back at the High Age of Greece, classical Greece, as that is their inheritance and like foundation, you know, like, no, that is where European culture and civilization comes from, and that is what should be emulated. And you know, that's be, that's, you know, like, that is a result of later.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Design, you know, I don't necessarily, I don't want to necessarily put it on the ancient Greeks, although I they absolutely.

• 24:17Liv Albert?

  Well, yeah, they had their shit, but you're right. It is the bigger issue is a later construct.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, the way it becomes a, the way it affects our world's day today and from settled colonial perspectives, from general like, you know, enslavement in the Western world and is is really a result of later thought.

• 24:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Later construction from people who are they themselves, not Greek. You know, like, that's also the the linchpin in it that I think people forget is this creation and this use of classics does not come from Greece itself.

• 24:54Liv Albert?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:55Speaker 02

  Because the Greeks.

• 24:56Liv Albert?

  It was just who they were, but.

• 24:58Speaker 02

  Well, and also, they were under an imperial power. They were under the Ottomans.

• 25:02Liv Albert?

  They were colonized.

• 25:03Speaker 02

  They were abs and.

• 25:04Liv Albert?

  For like two thousand years.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And I I've had many conversations with this about my friend because I also, you know, I'm an indigenous woman and I go to Greece and I love Greece and I'm just like, am I part of a problem too? And then, you know, one of my friends said to me, she was like, Kate, but Michaela, you actually talk to Greek people and you listen to them and you want to hear about their version of history and what is meaningful to them. And, you know, you sit there and you can say who Theodores Colocatronus is. Like, you've learned about modern Greek history because and and you can look at it and you can apply it to how Greeks are today.

• 25:38Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  So there is a, you know, i- it's it's how you interact with things because Greeks today are not a result of ancient Greeks.

• 25:46Liv Albert?

  No.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Are they absolutely proud of that heritage? Yes. Do they have every right to that heritage? Yes, but they are who they are because of the past several couple centuries. And that is the really the.

• 25:55Liv Albert?

  Millennia. Like, that's what's so interesting. Yeah, they were they were colonizers in the ancient world. But then by first century B.C., they weren't good at it. It wasn't their big priority. Like, Rome came in and was like, hold my beer, we're going to become like.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  They never unified. That's that's it's really.

• 26:11Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 02

  They had no real claim to power because while, you know, Rome was able to sort of unify all the different tribes and nations in ancient Italy under, you know, the Latins and Romans. Greece never did that. They were con- all the city-states were constantly fighting against each other and who can be better, blah, blah, blah, which just makes them weaker.

• 26:48Speaker 03

  State Fair food is getting smaller and pricier. We'll have room for fried cookies. Okay, you'd never overspend on food. What's your deal?

• 26:56Speaker 04

  What's his deal? He went to Metro and got $450 in value on the new Samsung Galaxy A37 5G for free and no activation fees.

• 27:04Speaker 03

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• 27:07Speaker 04

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• 28:44Liv Albert?

  Well, and that's what, to bring it back to the Odyssey, because I

• 28:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 28:48Liv Albert?

  know we could talk about this forever, but I'm also trying to make sure that we don't. But yeah, because, and that's what makes it so interesting and why, like, any kind of critique I have about these aspects of the Odyssey are not like a critique on the Greek people. They're about like, it's this wider understanding and how, it's just this wider notion of like, how this type of thing became formative to later, very problematic settler colonialism. And how these stories, like, when you actually are reading them with a critical lens, where you can see how, like you were saying in, with the Iliad, because it's so true here too, like, Homer, you know, as a quote unquote person, whatever he was, is critiquing these ideals, like, Odysseus is the main character, but he is not the good guy.

• 29:33Liv Albert?

  Like, those are two different things. And in this case, like, we have this story, and for me, the, the story with Polyphemus is the most interesting, because there's so many things at play. Like, when we get this first description of the Cyclops, like, it goes on and on. There's like two ebook pages worth of critiquing how they are not like the Greeks, how they don't farm like the Greeks, they don't use their land like the Greeks, they don't have ships, even though they have a really good harbor, and they would be really good seafarers, but they don't care, and they don't have laws,

• 30:08Liv Albert?

  but they get along just fine. And all of these things where it's both acknowledging the ways that they don't fit with the wider Greek culture, but also why they are living quite happily, and there is no issue amongst them. Like, there could be, but we are not told about any issue amongst the cyclopic people.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  And I think also, if we look at Homer, not just, you know, if, you know, I, I'm of the belief Homer is a tradition.

• 30:34Liv Albert?

  I know, we, we use the word Homer, but we don't acknowledge that it was one person. That's crazy.

• 30:37Speaker 02

  But I think that's interesting, too, to think of it as this is a tradition that grew out of a group of people, and they all shared this thought. They're all critiquing this. They're all saying, here's, you know, here's our characters, they're not good. They're, you know, they're not bad.

• 30:52Liv Albert?

  Doesn't mean they're good.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Yes, it, it is an examination of human beings, and they're examining, I think, themselves and how they interact with the world. And like, that's what myths are for. That is how you understand your place. In the world and and they're doing that in a way that they are not only highlighting the good stuff, but they are also highlighting, asking questions about the negative things and going, why? What is, what is this? What is this about us? We are doing, we are approaching something wrong. And I think that is very clear between Odysseus and the Cyclops.

• 31:29Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Um, like they are, and I think that's interesting to see that is coming from a tradition of people and not just a person, because then now we can see that as an understanding between, you know, it's not just one um, unique figure, one unique voice. It is a group of people all sort of simultaneously saying, hmm, let's examine this.

• 31:48Liv Albert?

  Exactly. It's this very cultural.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:52Liv Albert?

  Like question of like what, you know, it it and it it isn't landing on a good guy, a bad guy. It isn't landing on good and bad because that's not the point. The point is the question. And that's what's so interesting to me. And like, I mean, admittedly conveying that to children has been quite interesting, but I think I'm doing, I'm hoping I'm doing a pretty good job of it.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:11Liv Albert?

  Especially with the Cyclops. I really, I really go back and forth with the whole bit of the story because, like, again, I mean, even in this one little piece, there are not good guys and bad guys. There are people and I won't say human because one are Cyclops. But like there, it is still, it is still looking at the like human condition. The just the, the very notion of being a human and particularly being a human in a community. Because there's this whole critique about how they use their land, who they are, what they do, whatever. But there's no acknowledgement that there's any like bad ramifications of how they live. They just live differently from Odysseus. He's got a lot of judgment on that. But overall, it's like, that's just the way it is.

• 32:52Liv Albert?

  But then he goes in and he has this expectation of Xenia that I think is so interesting and really complex because he, he know, like we, it's kind of unclear, but the implication is we, he doesn't know at the time that they are Cyclops who live on this island. But at the same time, it's like, the way it's told in the story, we know right off the bat that they are Cyclops.

• 33:15Speaker 02

  Do we trust him?

• 33:16Liv Albert?

  They, exactly, exactly, right?

• 33:19Liv Albert?

  And so he, it's funny because first they land on the island across from the Cyclops. They land on an uninhabited like goat filled island. They eat their fill of goats. Everyone's quite happy and then they see smoke rising from the island across the street. And the men are like, all right, we've, uh, we've eaten well, like, let's get on our way. And Odysseus is like, no, we gotta go over and see who's over there. And that's the, that's number one, right?

• 33:45Speaker 02

  Last words.

• 33:46Liv Albert?

  And then, and then it gets worse. So they, he takes just one ship. He takes his ship and, and his men over and the 11 other ships stay behind.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:56Liv Albert?

  And he goes over there and they immediately find this cave house, right? And they go in, they're like, this is a shepherd's house. They can tell from everything in and outside of it. It is a shepherd's house. They're very judgy of it because he lives inside a cave and it's like not up to the Greek standards. But this is a shepherd's house. He's not there though. He's out with his flocks. He's literally just doing his job. And Od- and his men, so they go inside, they find cheese. They find his, the, the, very explicitly, he's got like lambs and stuff that are too young to be out with the flock. They're in the cave. The men are like, great, we, we can get some more food. Let's, let's take a bunch of his cheese. Let's get some of these animals.

• 34:41Liv Albert?

  Let's drive him back to the ship, steal them and then flee and be gone before he comes back.

• 34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, you know, and then comes back, there's all the drama.

• 34:53Liv Albert?

  No, but I, we, oh, no.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  How much more?

• 34:57Liv Albert?

  Uh, no.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Cause I have thoughts.

• 34:58Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And I want you to, but we, so, cause the thing for me, the thing that really stands out. Cause they prepare, they want to just steal all of his food and leave. And then Odysseus, Odysseus says, no.

• 35:10Liv Albert?

  We have to wait for him to come back. He might give us gifts. And that's the important part that I wanted to stay for because that is Odysseus seeking Xenia. He's seeking gifts of Xenia, of guest friendship from someone who he has already violated his laws as the guest. He's seeking a host even though he has already violated the laws of a guest. And that's what's interesting to me.

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Well, and so what was coming to my mind, what kind of was popping up is, A, I'm remembering, this is a story being told after the events. This is a story being told by the person who is there, who has already told us that he lies.

• 35:55Liv Albert?

  Yep.

• 35:56Speaker 02

  Um, and you know, he's admitting some things and not others. And fourthly, what the people he ends up, you know, disrespecting essentially are categorized and shown to be monsters.

• 36:10Liv Albert?

  And now what if? The key is other, I think, not even monster. Cause yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  Well, there is a monstrous aspect to it. And I think that's because it justifies his actions if they are monsters.

• 36:23Liv Albert?

  But.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Others, but also monsters.

• 36:25Liv Albert?

  But yeah, I still, I mean, I still, I don't know. I have, I think we got to be careful with what we talk about in Greek monsters because there is a line that is so modern of our idea of monsters. Because in the text, he's very much like, he, the, the way they are described is as if they are pretty human. Like he doesn't give a description of them with the one eye until much later, like the, their lives, they're described, lived experiences are very human. And that's what I think is important.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Yes. But I think the, the, I guess, you know, like the monstrous and othering things, it helps justify the terrible thing Odysseus has done by disrespecting. But it's interesting. It comes afterwards. This is a story being told. And that is what's kind of ringing a warning bells for me. Where it's going, okay, Odysseus has come in and he has.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  Disrespected his own culture's rules for this sort of thing. And you know, these are also like, uh, gen- generally all cultures sort of have this idea of you are a guest on somebody else's home or land, you need to respect your person and they respect you back.

• 37:35Liv Albert?

  It's mutual respect.

• 37:36Speaker 02

  That is extremely common.

• 37:38Liv Albert?

  That's human.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  And he comes in and he immediately doesn't do it and he knows he is wrong. So what does he have to do to justify his wrong? Oh, well, this is a guy who comes in, he starts eating us. You know, look at him, he's, you know, he's, he's different. They're, they're different. They're not like us. This is, this is a fourth, this is afterward, this is not the narrative as it is happening. This is the narrative afterwards. He has had many, many years to think about this event. And he goes, how I know I have done the terrible thing of walking into somebody else's house. We have made plans to say things. We are now, you know, it, it's very possible at the time, he didn't say, oh, no, no, we should stay for gifts. Perhaps at the time they were caught stealing things.

• 38:22Speaker 02

  But you know, now he is bringing in, oh, but you know, we were trying to do this, our, our culture's thing. We were trying to respect Senia, but he didn't. And to make himself look good, he needs to monsterize the other to justify his next actions and what happened and to make him look good.

• 38:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah, no, and yes, and it's so, cause the othering to me, and that's why I say, I wanna say other instead of monsters. Cause he definitely does, like there, there is a monstrifying nature, especially when, when he comes in and he eats the men. Yes, absolutely. But I think that the thing that stands out overall and before that moment is the other. And like the other versus monster, like they are meant to be different. They are culturally different and that is the bigger issue before the monstrosity comes in. And even that monstrosity. Is in the form of violence in this way. We're like, yeah, he's not, he doesn't look human. But that is like, that is the secondary issue to kind of what Odysseus is experiencing. And I,

• 39:27Liv Albert?

  and I say that because in comparison to the Lystragonians, I find it really interesting. Because with the Cyclops, we get this like long and detailed thing about how they're not normal. And they're not Greek and they're lawless and barbaric and all of these things. That he is using to justify his crime.

• 39:49Speaker 02

  His bad behavior.

• 39:50Liv Albert?

  His bad behavior. Exactly. His failure to follow Xenia.

• 39:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:55Liv Albert?

  And then, you know, he, and then obviously, you know, it, it blows up in a way that like, yeah, polyphemus does some bad stuff too. You shouldn't probably eat people, but why was, why were those men in a position to get eaten? One, because they stole this man's food and livestock. And two, because Odysseus refused to leave before he could get more glory.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Hubris.

• 40:21Liv Albert?

  Because it's hubris and it's that clayos, right? Like the glory. Odysseus is obsessed with clayos, with that need for glory, to the point where even when, after the first men are eaten and when Odysseus is like, okay, I've got to come up with a plan to like, help us escape because we can't get out on our own, whatever. He literally is like, all right, I've come up with my most brilliant of plan. I came up with a lot of cunning plans, but this one's my most brilliant. And he, and then he's like, oh, I'll get, I'll get revenge and glory. And that's really clear. Like, that's what he wants. And he only wants revenge because he kind of manufactured a reason for it.

• 41:01Liv Albert?

  Like, I feel like he wanted this violence against the cyclopic people. And the, it feels manufactured, the way he got to it. Like, if you break into somebody's house, steal all of their stuff, and then stay behind long enough for them to come back, like, and then somehow, then when they, when they, you know, enact their form of retribution for what you did, you turn them into the person that needs to be defeated. Like, that feels so manufactured in a very interesting way.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Well, and I think it's interesting that it is cannibalism, that, you know.

• 41:41Liv Albert?

  But it, it technically isn't because he's not a human.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  But here's the thi- that brings in the monsterizing thing.

• 41:49Liv Albert?

  Yeah.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  Where, you know, if it's the other, if it's just the other, it is cannibalism. Because the other is still human. And so he monsterizes it by adding this aspect. And also, like, the Cyclops, other than the one eye and being pretty tall, are extremely human appearance, you know, like, it's not really, but it's the actions. And that they do this very horrible thing. You know, they're eating their guests. There's this cannibalism slant to it, I guess. Is really interesting because it justifies, it absolutely justifies everything Odysseus does to them. Because, oh, it's fine, we can do this because here are these horrible people who eat people. You know, here are these horrible monsters. They're eating, they're eating people. They're a danger. And it's like,

• 42:36Speaker 02

  were they?

• 42:37Liv Albert?

  Yeah. Would they have eaten people if you hadn't?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Stolen their food?

• 42:42Liv Albert?

  Yeah. And, and been hiding in their house because it, like, to me, I mean, at that point, the, because it's interesting. Also, Polyphemus kills them first, which I find to be quite interesting. At least with the first two men, because he kills a total of six. Um, three meals, two in each hand.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 43:00Liv Albert?

  And he, the first time, though, he very explicitly picks these men up, hits their heads on the ground, and then eats their bodies. And I think that's very interesting, is he doesn't eat them alive. And, you know, I mean, obviously, it's like, it's a weird thing to be like debating these like intricacies. But it's so interesting to me because, because that part feels more like defending your land and property and things and, and.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  It sounds like he took out six guys.

• 43:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah, who invaded your house and stole your food and threatened you.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:36Liv Albert?

  Like.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:38Liv Albert?

  And, and in a, in a realm where there's, you know, no cops to come save you, ACAB, like, it's just.

• 43:46Liv Albert?

  ACAB but Odysseus? Um, but no, and it's so interesting.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  A cab.

• 43:53Liv Albert?

  A cab?

• 43:54Speaker 02

  A O B?

• 43:55Liv Albert?

  A O B?

• 43:56Speaker 02

  A O, it's fine.

• 43:58Liv Albert?

  It's fine, A-Cab, but Odysseus. Um, but no, and that's the thing, and it's so interesting. But then, so generally, I think this whole encounter with the Cyclops is so interesting and really like, I don't know, it was, it was one of the harder, I think it was the most difficult bit I've written so far because I wanted to convey what's happening and not, not like brush over. Yeah. And, and to make clear that like, both of the people involved here are doing bad things. Like Odysseus is not a victim. Polyphemus is a victim, but he takes that victimhood into violence that is not okay.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:39Liv Albert?

  But like, and Polyphemus is so sympathetic in a way where like, I have a bunch of kids additions that thankfully, it's worked out very well that I am the nerd who for the last 10 years has been collecting every single edition of The Odyssey I could possibly find at any place at any time. Um, because it's really come in handy and I have so many kids additions and I've, you know, Polyphemus is always depicted as this horrible monster who just eats people and he's so violent. And I think it's really important to, to look at the ways that Odysseus is incredibly xenophobic when he first arrives, the way he judges everything, the way like, everything in the lead up is meant to make Polyphemus

• 45:22Liv Albert?

  less sympathetic. But despite that, he remains very sympathetic. Like he has a favorite ram and he has like, and in this translation, it's called, he's, he's a sweet ram. And like, he loves his animals. He cares for them first, more than anything. He milks his ewes and then he puts, he puts them with their babies. Like, he,

• 45:44Speaker 02

  He's taking care of them.

• 45:45Liv Albert?

  He is a shepherd. He is a shepherd more than anything else. And to me, like, that was really important to convey while also being like, oh, he eats people and that's not great.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:54Liv Albert?

  But, why?

• 45:56Speaker 02

  And I think that's sort of the primary thing people have to um keep with them when they go into reading the Odyssey, especially the part where he's telling the story to the Phaeacians. We are being told a story. Our narrator is a character in the story who, when we are first introduced to him, is being called topsy-turvy, complicated, a man of many terms. You know, this is who is telling for those chapters that story. And you need to know, you know, this isn't, we can't trust them, you know, read the secret history. Well, who is it? Richard, I don't remember the main character's name, unreliable narrator. We don't trust them. You cannot trust Odysseus.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  And that is fascinating and fun and interesting, but you have to keep that in mind when you're reading it and not put that down.

• 46:44Liv Albert?

  Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's, yeah, I'm, I mean, I'm overall obsessed. I just want to, I want to wrap this one up.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Yes, I'm looking at the time too.

• 46:52Liv Albert?

  I know, I know. Um, but I just want to compare it real quick with the Lystragonians because when he first, so he leaves the Cyclops and then next they land on um the island of Iolus, who's, you know, the king of the winds. There's a whole wind saga. That's kind of, it's not relevant to my point, so I'm not going to retell it. But like, after that, they end up in the land of the Lystragonians. And what's so interesting to me is that like, on the surface, Lystragonians are the same as the Cyclops. They are giants who eat people. But that is where it all falls apart. Like, there's, there's no similarities otherwise. Like, Odysseus, when they land there, which one, I mean, there's a whole thing to say about how Odysseus handles that one because he basically allows himself to remain safe.

• 47:37Liv Albert?

  And then like five hundred plus of his men die because he's a dumbass. But outside of that, he sends his men to find the people who live on this land, to figure out who they are, like in that same way that he's always doing that. He, he wants the guest gifts. And in a lot of times, like, that is appropriate. You go and you put yourself before the people who live there and you say, hi, I'm traveling. I would love a place to stay and some food. Uh, you know, here's what I can offer you in return, whatever. And his men go and they were told that they like run into a daughter of the king, who apparently isn't a giant. I don't know. They don't, they trust her and they let her lead them to the palace. And then they get inside this palace and they're literally put before the king and the queen. And it's like, oh my God, they're giants and they don't even get to say a word.

• 48:22Liv Albert?

  The king just picks up one of the men and eats him and then they all run and shit blows up and it's terrible. But it's so interesting to me that like, that is a position where they are actually following Xenia. They are without initial violence, they are going to the leaders and asking for whatever. Like, because first they see the daughter and they say like, hey, we, you know, are visitors and whatever. She brings them to the palace and they don't get a chance for anything else. They are attacked and eaten. That is to me of like monstrous action. That is overt violence. That is like, that is, you know, so different from the Cyclops.

• 49:03Liv Albert?

  Because none of that would have happened with the Cyclops if Odysseus hadn't invaded that space and stolen everything. And it's such an interesting juxtaposition and that's the thing I've, it's been like, how, how does one convey that without too many details? Because it is so similar and yet so different. And it's just fascinating to me that we have these two types of like man eating giants. And yet the, the relationship to them is conveyed so differently. The judgment of their culture, like there's none of that. I mean, it's, yeah, yeah.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  And who they're interacting with is different in each culture as well. With the Cyclops, they're interacting with a shepherd. With the Lystragonians, they're interacting with the king and queen and the daughter. You know, like there is a, um, they're, they're interacting with the royalty. So there is a, there are two different dimensions here in terms of the actual people.

• 49:52Liv Albert?

  Yes. And I'm glad you said that because to me that, that then really makes the initial description of the Cyclops stand out. Where they have no laws, they hold no councils and so they do not have a king. And so because they don't have a king, Odysseus feels that he can just roll up into anyone's house and steal their shit because they don't have those customs. Whereas the Lystragonians have a king, they go to that king, he eats them, they run. Like it's such a different, it's like Odysseus respects the culture of the Lystragonians, even though they are actually terrifying.

• 50:31Liv Albert?

  And he doesn't respect the like, culture, the customs of the Cyclops. And so like, he causes all of this problem. And like, you know, thankfully too, and I think this says a lot about the way you're saying like, this is a critique.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:44Liv Albert?

  Is that he is full on cursed by Zeus and Poseidon for how he handles polyphemus.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:52Liv Albert?

  Yeah. That says a lot because he broke Senia and therefore he is cursed by Zeus. Zeus makes it so those Lystragonians kill, I've been like, I keep a tally in the book, which I think is quite fun. And the Lystragonians kill almost all of them, 11 ships of men out of 12.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:08Liv Albert?

  And, and so like, that's because of Zeus. Zeus is like, even at the end, Odysseus is like, yeah, Zeus was mad at me. He was already planning on destroying all my ships.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. And for Zeus to be that mad at you, you have had to have done something pretty bad.

• 51:21Liv Albert?

  You've had to.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  So we can assume that whatever the hell happened, really actually happened with the Cyclops.

• 51:27Liv Albert?

  No, exactly.

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Was pretty fucking bad.

• 51:29Liv Albert?

  Yes. And so it's, yeah, it's, it's really interesting. It's very, it is. And I do think we could talk about this forever.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  We absolutely could.

• 51:38Liv Albert?

  Going to wrap this one up to the listeners, um, on the regular feed. You can imagine me reading the credits here. Um, they're the same every time. So just picture, I've said all of that. And, um, if you are curious about the questions that we're going to answer from the patrons, or you want to see this video, come on over to Patreon where we are trying to build a backup plan because ad revenue is, uh, going down into the drain and, uh, we want to stay afloat. So I don't know, consider ad free and, uh, a little subscription.

• 52:10Speaker 02

  Us.

• 52:10Liv Albert?

  Some of our, you just get our undying love. It's like a whole thing.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:15Liv Albert?

  So yeah, uh, patreon.com slash myths, baby. If you're curious for more, and if not, enjoy this free episode and I will see you on Friday anyway.

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