WTF is Going Down in Ukraine? w/ Oz Katerji | EYES ON GEOPOLITICS

In this episode, Dee speaks with Oz Katerji, a Ukraine correspondent, about the recent protests in Ukraine against the government's attempt to disband anti-corruption agencies. They discuss the implications of these protests for democracy in Ukraine, Zelensky's response to public outcry, and the complexities of military aid and support from the U. S. The conversation also touches on the nature of protests in Ukraine compared to the U. S., the legislative process during wartime, and the prospects for a ceasefire in the ongoing conflict with Russia. Find Oz here: https://www.youtube.com/@Oz. Katerji https://x.com/OzKaterji Sign up to our newsletter here! https://teamhousepodcast.kit.com/ Support the show on Patreon:⬇️ https://www.patreon.com/TheTeamHouse New merch, patches, and stickers! ⬇️ https://theteamhouse-shop.fourthwall.com Find Mick Mulroy here: Fogbow ⬇️ https://fogbow.com/ Lobo Institute ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/ Twitter ⬇️ https://x.com/mickmulroy?s=21&t=-Ze3F_Ix2vlJ18KFvORTCA LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-patrick-mulroy-31198b52/ Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/mickmulroy.bsky.social Mick’s publications ⬇️ https://www.loboinstitute.org/publications/publications-of-michael-mick-patrick-mulroy/ Find Andy Milburn here: Twitter ⬇️ https://twitter.com/i/flow/login?redirect_after_login=%2Fandymilburn8 LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewmilburn2023 Substack ⬇️ https://amilburn.substack.com/ Andy’s book ⬇️ https://www.amazon.com/When-Tempest-Gathers-Mogadishu-Operations Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/andy-milburn.bsky.social Find Jason Lyons here: LinkedIn ⬇️ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-lyons-666873316?u Bluesky ⬇️ https://bsky.app/profile/bgsilverback73.bsky.social 00:00 Introduction to the Current Situation in Ukraine 01:17 Protests Against Anti-Corruption Agency Changes 05:05 Zelensky's Response to Public Outcry 10:24 The Role of American Politics in Supporting Ukraine 14:14 Democratic Values and Public Protests in Ukraine 20:10 Understanding the Historical Context of the Conflict 25:26 Government Authority and Democratic Scrutiny During Wartime 26:49 Understanding the Ukrainian Experience Under Invasion 29:00 The Complexity of Ceasefire and Territorial Integrity 31:23 The Role of Far-Right Elements in the Ukrainian Conflict 35:50 The Diverse Political Landscape of Ukrainian Fighters 39:13 The Misconceptions Surrounding Russian Aggression 41:27 The Challenges of Diplomacy with Russia Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-team-house--5960890/support?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:41Speaker 03

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Eyes on Geopolitics. I've got a special guest today. Oz Catterjee, a Ukraine correspondent based in Kiev. He's got a lot cooking. Documentary called "Battle for Kiev" that's available on all on-demand channels, Apple, Google, Amazon. He has a podcast called "This Is Not a Drill", and he's the host of "The OK Show". So he's a busy man, and he's based in Kiev. I wanted to have you on, Oz. Thank you for being here. I wanted to have you on because of what went down earlier this week with the vote to...

• 2:20Speaker 03

  You know, basically disband the uh the anti-corruption agencies that were supposedly independent in Ukraine. Big uproar. There was protests in the street, hundreds or thousands of people. You were on the street too. I saw a couple of your videos. Great. You're a great Twitter follower to follow. So people, check it out if you want to know what's what in Ukraine.

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, give us a rundown because since we spoke, like I asked you to be on, there's been a bit of change too. You know, Zelensky came back and is proposing a new bill, you know, so there's a lot going on. So if you give us the rundown on that, that'd be great.

• 2:56Speaker 04

  Sure. Well, I mean, look, I will say one thing. It wasn't so much that they were disbanding these two anti-corruption bodies. It was that they were basically stripping the independence away and giving that to the prosecutor general of Ukraine, who is appointed by Zelensky. So it would be effectively taking their independence away. And, and, you know, there were justifications given by Zelensky that there were, there was Russian interference in parts of it. And that, you know, some of the prosecutions were languishing and never actually going anywhere and so on and so forth. They gave a bunch of reasons. In either case, those reasons didn't wash with

• 3:40Speaker 04

  the Ukrainian citizens who saw it as an overreach by Zelensky's wartime government. And, you know, it was a viral protest that like, as soon as the bill was pushed through parliament, some Ukrainian soldiers who are currently serving started tweeting about it and said, let's meet outside the president's office, or the closest place you can get to the president's office, which is outside of a theater, which is, you know, about 150 meters away or so.

• 4:12Speaker 04

  And there's a square there, so people started gathering there. It was completely like spur-of-the-moment viral thing. And the first day, you know, I'd say more than a thousand people turned up, maybe about fifteen hundred or so. It's quite a small square, so lots of people in there, you know, it starts to feel like, you know, a big protest. And, you know, the government responded by, you know, signing, you know, Zelensky hadn't signed the bill, he signed the bill. He released a statement saying, "I acknowledge your concerns," etc., etc. That didn't go far enough. There was another day of protests. It wasn't just in Kyiv. It was around the place. And I have to say, I was on the ground at these protests, and I saw

• 4:55Speaker 04

  some people, you know, completely misconstruing what was happening. There were Marjorie Taylor Greene, for example, she tweeted that that this was an anti-war protest and that the people were sick of Zelensky. And, look, I was on the ground, I spoke to people. Absolutely not, they were singing the Ukrainian national anthem, they were singing, you know, patriotic Ukrainian slogans. They were very much, you know, there were veterans, soldiers there, and they weren't anti-war veterans, they, they were, you know, going back to the frontline and, and support the government when it comes to defending the country. What they don't support is the government overreaching and, you know, taking the independence away from these

• 5:37Speaker 04

  anti-corruption bodies. And that's something that's very important for Europe, you know, Ukraine wants to integrate with the EU. And the EU has all of these laws that, that, that, you know, Ukraine has to be in sync with around corruption. That, you know, the old Soviet Ukrainian system was full of corruption. So getting from that to a, you know, liberal European kind of

• 6:05Speaker 04

  Politics hasn't been a straight line for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people do feel quite strongly about it. Zelensky was like, he ran on a campaign of being anti-corruption, you know, a difference, he was a populist kind of comedian, you know, he was offering something different. And he was offering a dovishness towards Russia. It wasn't, you know, let's continue, let's try and make a kind of agreement with Russia. So for Zelensky to become this wartime leader, a lot of the American right don't tend to understand that this is a genuine thing. He's not massively unpopular here, you know, but as soon as he overreached, the people,

• 6:50Speaker 04

  people that had been supporting him right up till this point, decided to go out and protest. And following that second day of protest, Zelensky seemed to back down and he seemed to offer a new bill to parliament to try and, you know, re-establish that independence. So it looks like the protesters have scored a victory, basically, and that Zelensky has backed down to public concerns, public protests. That to me is a sign of a healthy democracy, you know, he did something unpopular, the people said, hey, this is unpopular, and then he goes, okay, I hear you. I mean, we, let's wait to see, I don't want to defend this policy unless, you know, there

• 7:34Speaker 04

  could be more protests at the moment. As we're recording, it looks like this new bill is at least going to get scrutinized before the people react again. In either case, so far, so good. I mean, I have to say as well, the protest was completely peaceful, there were some police around, but they were absolutely not, you know, they weren't surrounding the crowd, they weren't doing anything to the crowd. Um. And the the crowd weren't antagonistic or hostile to the police that were there in any way, shape or form. Um. This was a completely, you know, and it was about a narrow political issue, a domestic political issue. It had no political connection to the to the war whatsoever.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  So, um, and, you know, it looks to have been, as we're recording, it looks there's some sort of compromise that that has probably settled, um, but will will remain to be seen. And again, um, sometimes you get the accusation a- as a foreign journalist that, uh, you know, again, not not by Ukrainians, but, uh, by by some people who are who consider themselves anti-war, uh, when it comes to this situation. That's not a term I would use, but let's just say Plaidzewski's advocate and and that I get sometimes accused of, um, you know, just parroting a government line. And, you know, the proof is as soon as the first the first protest I've seen since the war began, and I've been here since the war began, um, the first protest I've

• 9:01Speaker 04

  seen, I was there both both days of it, you know, on the ground filming it. So, you know, we we reporters are doing our jobs here. Um, and again, i- if you want to really judge the situation, judge it as it is, a narrow political situation that was unpopular by the government. People came out in the streets, hundreds at first, then thousands, not tens of thousands, but you know, it, you know, it was quick. It was young people mobilizing in the in the capital in wartime situations under martial law. So this was wasn't a small deal.

• 9:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:36Speaker 04

  Um, but Zelensky responded so far. Um, and he also thanked the protesters for, uh, I think what he called their dignity, uh, for the way they they dignity, the dignity of their protests. So, um, again, you know, this is kind of, this is what you want to, uh, uh, uh, how a government to respond to, uh, popular criticism, if it's something that that, um, you know, that that that is unpopular for for good reason, you know, people want, uh, independence in their anti-corruption bodies. So, look, it remains to be seen what's going to happen over the next few days and weeks. Uh, I think one thing this has definitely proved is this government

• 10:19Speaker 04

  is still in power at the will of the people. If the people didn't want Zelensky.

• 10:26Speaker 04

  They would make, they would make it very clear.

• 10:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:30Speaker 04

  I think that's been demonstrated perfectly clear. But of that, again, you're gonna, don't have to take my word for it. Take the word of the Ukrainian people who just did this.

• 10:40Speaker 04

  If you're gonna make claims like you're, you know, I'm doing this because I don't want to see Ukrainians fight to the last Ukrainian, whatever, you're not speaking for them. You're not speaking for those people that mobilized on the streets. They were veterans, they were soldiers. They were patriots, they were going to fight Russia, they hate Russia. You know, there were very, there were lots of anti Russia things said at the protest.

• 11:02Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 11:02Speaker 04

  This is, you know, so i- i- if you think that you're using this situation to try and make a point about the conflict, you're just factually wrong. And the least you should want to be when talking about something is at least factually correct. So factually, the Ukrainian people weren't protesting any kind of anti war sentiment at this protest.

• 11:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I mean, like, anything Marjorie Taylor Greene says should be taken with a grain of salt. I think, I don't think she said anything factual and like.

• 11:34Speaker 04

  There were some other bloggers and podcasters and stuff on Twitter saying that. And, and you know, look, I don't normally reach out to the American right. It's not, you know, I'm very open about being a liberal.

• 11:50Speaker 04

  You know, so I'm coming at this from understanding that we are in a different place at the moment politically with, with the leader of, of, of, of the United States of America.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 04

  And that simply, you know, not having a dialogue with people that, that, that have influence in these spaces is, is not necessarily prudent to advancing policy ideas on Ukraine. And there is a big movement in the Donald Trump base that is against providing Ukraine with support.

• 12:25Speaker 04

  The Ukrainian community in America have had significant success when they've lobbied, you know, like they lobbied Mike Johnson, they brought some evangelicals that had been, that had been, you know, under Russian occupation. Mike Johnson heard their, their, their stories and then he changed his position on the Ukraine aid vote. So having those, those conversations with people you might be fundamentally, you know, fundamentally opposed to on, on many, many issues. But you still need.

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• 13:55Speaker 04

  That kind of support in, in, in the seats of government to, you know, provide aid that Ukraine needs to defend itself. And the Europeans in Zelensky has had more success recently after that famous blow up in the, in the Oval Office, in basically saying to the Trump administration, appealing to his businessman nature, saying, look, we will buy the weapons, Europe will buy the weapons, all of them, and you'll get paid, you know, and it'll be a good deal for America, be a good deal for Europe. That works in convincing Donald Trump into thinking, okay, fine, it's a business transaction. Fine, you know, um, so, yeah, I, I, I, you know, it's, it's a difficult one.

• 14:41Speaker 04

  But, you know, I'm in a position here as a reporter on the ground. So I'm in a, I'm in a privileged position to be able to give you facts that I can see with my own eyes and verify by speaking to people, right? And whether or not you trust my integrity to do that is literally, that's your prerogative, guys. But, but I take my job seriously and I, and I show, I demonstrate, you know, any bit of evidence in my work. I've done that my entire career, you can go back all the way. So, um, because of that, I, I, I feel like it's, there's a duty to, to correct the record and, and state what, what's happening here on the ground. Because, um, again, it's not just the American right.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  That's not really my experience in, in, in politics. My experience is more British politics and dealing with the British left who are very, you know, opposed to, to parts of it are military aid to Ukraine. So I've had these battles with, with people that, that, that I, you know, fundamentally disagree with. But listen, those people in the UK don't have any power, whereas in the United States, these people are wielding significant influence when it comes to being able to provide military aid to Ukraine. And I think it's important for the future of Europe. I think it's important for people that believe in democracy, that, that Ukraine is supported throughout this war.

• 16:11Speaker 04

  So that's what I'm going to continue to do. I'm going to continue to report the truth objectively and use my platform to tell people that I've concluded from everything that I've seen, uh, that, that Ukraine needs to be supported. And again, maybe, maybe some people will say, well, as a reporter, you're just supposed to be unbiased about everything. And I'm, you know, the World War Two reporters who were deployed with the Allies certainly weren't unbiased about, you know, Nazi Germany. And I, I, you know, Russia is a expansionist, revanchist fascist dictatorship with no press freedom, no freedom of, of speech, no, no, none of those things that the Americans are supposed to, to care about, right? I thought about it.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  Ukraine is different.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  Imagine like there were protests that broke out in Moscow, like what would happen there to them?

• 17:02Speaker 04

  All those people would be arrested.

• 17:04Speaker 03

  Correct. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, people in Ukraine exercising their democratic right to protest something that they don't like about internal Ukrainian politics. We should kind of champion that. And, and the administration, the Zelensky administration actually like hearing them and at least taking the steps to.

• 17:23Speaker 04

  No state repression, no, no, you know, the, the state could have responded by saying it's martial law, you're not allowed to protest, go home and push people off the streets.

• 17:31Speaker 03

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• 18:12Speaker 03

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• 18:48Speaker 04

  Yeah. Right. They were within their legal rights under martial law to do that. I'm not saying they should have done. I completely would never have supported that. But I'm saying they didn't do that, even though they could have done that legally speaking, and they could have argued that it was legal. They knew it was morally incorrect, and they did the morally correct and, you know, responsible, democratic thing to do, uh, which is to to allow, uh, freedom of assembly. You know, it's that's a fundamental right that Ukrainians fought for. They've had several, you know, revolutions and and and and huge protest

• 19:28Speaker 04

  movements over the course of their history, calling for independence and and and freedom of, you know, liberty and and freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. These are Ukrainian values. It's not their they're not, you know, Western values that we're pushing on to the Ukrainian people. These are what Ukrainian people are fighting for. Uh, and the least we can do is listen to them. Listen to what they're actually saying, rather than talking over them about what you think, uh, they should give up in order, uh, to make the world seem like a more stable place. You know, you're not in their shoes. You're not in their position. You're not you're not being asked to give up anything. They are. Um, so the least you could do is sit down and have a conversation, uh, with Ukrainians.

• 20:11Speaker 04

  And I think, I think there were loads of advocates for, I mean, look, the Klitschko brothers, so Vitaly Klitschko is the mayor of Kyiv. I I would love to see the Klitschko brothers going on Joe Rogan and, uh, you know, and and and reaching out to to parts of the, uh, the the kind of online digital ecosystem that really has has had it in for Ukraine for for many years. And I, you know, I don't under I just don't understand it other than it's something that also liberals seem to support. So, you know, it it just doesn't make sense to me why, why there's this, there's this kind of poisoning of of the idea of of being supportive of Ukraine is is a bad thing. But it's something I feel

• 20:56Speaker 04

  like we have a duty to try and at least confront, you know, talk about, discuss, you know, I think these things are, uh, relatively important to do. So, you know.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  It is kind of interesting to me, like, how, why, uh, uh, either of the Klitschko brothers haven't been on Rogan, uh, you know, Rogan's a fight guy, fight fan.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  And it would be an incredible opportunity, to be honest, for them to get on there and like give their, they can give their own ground truth of what's going on on the ground. They've been there.

• 21:27Speaker 04

  Come here. Listen, any, any one of, any, any podcaster that listen, that's listening in, that, that wants to, you know, you have a significant audience, you want to come over here, you're part of the American right, you will find other conservatives here, Ukrainians that will take you around, that, that will show you their story, their truth, you know, as, as people that share philosophies and, and, and, you know, beliefs. I, I, I don't know why people aren't, aren't doing it, you know, like, uh, you know, uh, what?

• 22:06Speaker 03

  I don't think, I think they have a narrative and they wanna, they wanna keep it going, unfortunately, especially like the podcasts where like-

• 22:14Speaker 04

  I mean, Ben Shapiro came over here and, and he, he came back and he said all of this stuff and, and you know, that's, that's Ben Shapiro saying it. Again, again, someone I, I have nothing in common with at all. I, I, I share no beliefs with this guy, but at the end of the day, he came and spoke to Ukrainians and came back and said, listen, this is, this is what, what I observed by being there. And this isn't North Korea. You can walk around without a minder. You, you know, there's no one holding your hand. There's no police violence on the street when there was a protest. There's no repression. There was like, when I say there were cops there, I don't mean like there was a wall of cops. I mean, like, there was like three cops there. There were like five cops.

• 22:59Speaker 04

  They were just like, and, and there was, they were just like, you know, mingling. They weren't,

• 23:05Speaker 03

  They weren't really showing force, right?

• 23:07Speaker 04

  At all. At all. You know, they were like public safety there. That, that, that's, that's the, the very most they were.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  It's interesting. It's a, it's an interesting juxtaposition with like protests that happened in America.

• 23:19Speaker 04

  You don't get that in America. In America, you don't get that, right?

• 23:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  The, the heart of the free world supposedly.

• 23:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 04

  You know, you can't just strike up a protest right outside the White House.

• 23:31Speaker 03

  No, I mean, you can, I think, but like, there's gonna be an absolute show of force.

• 23:36Speaker 04

  A hundred percent.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  There's gonna be a wall of, you know.

• 23:40Speaker 03

  So like.

• 23:41Speaker 04

  And I'm not saying I don't understand that. I'm not saying that.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 23:43Speaker 04

  But, but, but there, there is, what I think it really demonstrates, right, is that there is a public buy-in between the people and the authorities as this war is going on. They understand they are all doing, they're all pulling in the same direction. That's not the case currently in America. You guys are completely polarized down the middle.

• 24:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 04

  Ukraine is not polarized when it comes to the war.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 24:08Speaker 04

  It's just not.

• 24:09Speaker 03

  I mean, think about it, right? They're actually fighting for freedom, right? That everybody in America, especially you hear that all the time, freedom, we love freedom. So i- it's interesting. You would think that it would be a lot easier and it wouldn't have to be this like tug of war to, for people to be on side of Ukraine, giving them support. And you, you would think it would just be a lot easier, man. Like I, I, and I don't understand it.

• 24:34Speaker 04

  Well, listen, the other, the other argument comes from the idea that, that America started this conflict by pushing NATO or Eastern Europe. And look, this conflict started in 2014 when the Ukrainians overthrew a leader that was, yes, democratically elected, but they wanted to join the European Union. It wasn't about NATO. NATO wasn't even in the discussion. The Ukrainians weren't, weren't, they were most, most Ukrainians had no interest in joining NATO, right, in 2014. It, they, they, again, there was an unpopular decision by the Yanukovych government, who, who was pro-Russia, who was like, no, we're gonna tear up this EU agreement. We're gonna go, we're gonna stay with Russia.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  Uh, the people took to the streets, the state shot those people, they shot a hundred people dead in the streets, right?

• 25:29Speaker 04

  And following that, Inukovich was overthrown, he ran out of the country, they held democratic elections immediately afterwards, right? It wasn't like a, you know, a military coup and they imposed a dictator. There was a democratically elected election straight afterwards. And then there was another democratic election years later, Zelensky came in, right? But this was about the European Union, it was about joining the European Union, it wasn't about NATO. After that, after Russia invaded, annexed Crimea, invaded Donetsk and Luhansk, you know, claiming that these were Russian lands and, you know, they started, this started in 2014.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  And Ukrainians, you know, elected Zelensky saying, look, okay, fine, we'll, we'll come to some kind of agreement about this, let's just not fight anymore. Right. That's who Zelensky was. And he became a wartime leader because even that dovish attitude towards Russia just meant them, you know, their, their attitude is Ukraine doesn't exist as a nation state, it's just part of Russia. And that anyone perpetuating the idea that Ukraine has an identity outside of little Russia is a Nazi, basically. If you are, if you are liberal, pro-European, you're a Nazi in the eyes of the Russian.

• 26:54Speaker 04

  Because, because in their head, being anti-Russian is to be Nazi because Russians defeated the Nazis. It's, it's just mindless, moronic fascism to the most basic degree. You know, Ukrainians don't want to be part of a dictatorship, they don't want to live in Russia, they want to live in Ukraine. They made that clear in 1991, they've made it clear many times, they made it clear in 2014. And, you know.

• 27:26Speaker 04

  Again, I can only, I can only recommend that, that, that people come out here and, and, and talk to these people themselves. Marjorie Taylor Greene, come out here yourself. Come out and go, go meet some Christian groups and, and, and, and go tell them how you feel and see what they say to you. Just do it. You know, if you're so, you know, big and, and brave.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Well, especially if you're so outspoken about it, right? Like, and you're a per, like, I, I've said this before on the podcast, like this, we got, we have four hundred thirty five, five hundred thirty five people that run, presumably run the entire United States. You gotta take that job seriously. And if you have an outspoken opinion, go and actually do.

• 28:08Speaker 04

  And you have to be fair, loads of them have, loads of Republicans and loads of Democrats have. That bipartisan consensus in Congress exists because those people know, you know, something about what's going on in Ukraine. The people that haven't have been here are the ones who are the most interested in voting against Ukraine aid. Right? It's like, the only way you can shut your mind off to this is by not, uh, not, you know, looking at the problem and, and embracing it. And that's what a lot of people do with lots of conflicts around the world. You know, I can name a handful that, that people just, if you don't want to learn what's going on, it's much easier to, to have a biased, you know, perspective on, on, on, on what's actually taking place.

• 28:51Speaker 03

  Right. And just be fed the misinformation that's getting, uh, put out, put out there, um, and run with it.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  Back, I got one question about the bill that passed, the law that passed about, uh, getting rid of the independence of these, these agencies. It was pretty, uh, popular within the parliament, right? And, and I did see that the thought process behind doing that was because Russia had influence over these agencies somehow. Is that true? Is there anything there?

• 29:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, look, that, that's, that, I, I, I haven't looked at all of the evidence that, that they have on all of the, you know, I, I, I, I couldn't tell you in minute detail what those things are. I can tell you that, that Ukrainian press outlets, independent Ukrainian press outlets did not agree with the government's perception of, of, and, and the, the public didn't a, a, agree with that.

• 29:47Speaker 04

  But look, when the parliament passes things, Zelensky wields significant authority. The government wants to do this. It's a wartime government. They say the Russians are involved. We're going to pass this. The parliament just passes it. Again, there's not a lot of, you know, there is definitely less democratic scrutiny of Zelensky's government during war than there would be during peace. And that is like, on a basic level, like completely understandable. Sure. But like, you know, that has, that has implications. It has, you know,

• 30:27Speaker 04

  this is the reality of the ground. But this, none of you have lived, if you're not, if you're not here or in a country that has experienced something similar, it's hard to think of few countries that have faced an invasion like this. If you haven't lived in a country under invasion, you don't understand what it's like. You know, again, those things that you take for granted, those freedoms that you take for granted are under threat here, not because the government wants to put them under threat. It's, you know, people saying, we are willing to let go of certain freedoms right now because we understand that we are under attack and we need to pull together to.

• 31:10Speaker 04

  And, and there is complete buy-in from all walks of society. This isn't the government forcing this on Ukrainians. So there's just no other way to explain it to people without, without saying it as simple as it is, you know.

• 31:26Speaker 04

  This government will fall. Zelensky's government will fall if, if he does something unpopular and the, and the people get tired of him. There is no doubt, you know. And one of the things that he could do that would make him fall is sign an agreement with Russia that gives away, but basically all of this territory. I could tell you, if he signed that agreement, he would be overthrown tomorrow. So like, you know, like the, it's just so far removed from reality, the kind of argument that I've had with people in recent. Days that that it defies belief. It's like they they almost believe literally the opposite of the thing that's true. So

• 32:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 04

  When it when it's a situation like that, it's like, what what can I say? You know, it's

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:08Speaker 04

  You know, chemtrails aren't real, you know, that's just jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

• 32:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 04

  Or can it's like, you know.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's. Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's and I understand the reasoning behind like having the government be a little bit more lean and mean where it can make decisions faster uh when you're in a war and being invaded uh. Can't really have like a, you know, a one month floor fight over something that's like in integral to like defense or something like that.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  Do you think, like you mentioned, like if you were to give away territory, like, let's say they were to be able to freeze the lines and have a ceasefire, which, I mean, Russia is a fucking joke. Like, you can't trust the thing they fucking say.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  That's the that's the critical point.

• 32:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 32:56Speaker 04

  That's the like, that's the reason why there isn't going to be any kind of trade of territory, because even if there was, the Ukrainians don't trust that the Russians won't invade again.

• 33:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. So even if they did freeze the lines and there was some kind of security guarantee, you know, everything that, you know, could happen, as good as possible could happen. You think the Ukrainian, like, people would be pissed about that? And like to the point where to the point where they try and get Zelensky out.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  If there was like some kind of ceasefire

• 33:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:31Speaker 04

  And no official recognition of the land, like the the Ukrainians will always consider that Ukrainian. So

• 33:39Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  That there would, you know, the government wouldn't survive saying these lands are Russian. Would it survive saying, we're not gonna, we're not gonna shoot in these territories for, you know, X amount of time or indefinitely. Uh, there is a substantial amount of the population that would be amenable to that because, look, it's they don't want to be bombed every single day.

• 34:03Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:03Speaker 04

  Right? That doesn't mean that they're conceding that that land. Is Russian. And again, this isn't about land, it's about people. The people on in those places are Ukrainian. And Ukraine isn't willing to give up its people, you know, it's not willing to give up, you know, the second most popular city in Ukraine to Russia like that. That's insane. Why, like, what are you talking about? Like, are you just, you're giving up New York to, to, or LA to, to Mexico, or like, like,

• 34:38Speaker 04

  by force, like, like, it would never, it would never wash anywhere in the world. But some people think that Ukrainians should be expected to, to, you know, ha- hand over, you know, Kharkiv and hand over Kherson and.

• 34:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's wild because like, I, you know, I try to tell people who are like, yeah, we shouldn't be giving support to Ukraine at all. I'm like, imagine somebody invaded and took a bunch of land or was like bombing you every day. What would you do? Well, how would you feel? You know, in America where it's like, you know, freedom and I need my guns and all that stuff.

• 35:17Speaker 04

  We all know how, what they would do. We all know what they would do. Like, there's no doubt, there's no doubt. Like, some of the Ukrainians have had, have had significant public international backlash because some people fighting on the Ukrainian side are like out and out fascist neo Nazis, right? Some people are, a small amount of them are. But I mean, America has loads of fascist neo Nazis.

• 35:43Speaker 03

  You go to any country, you go to any country and they got them, like.

• 35:46Speaker 04

  But, but, but, but again, those fascist neo Nazis would, would be on the front lines fighting if America was, was in a war. And you wouldn't go, oh, basically all of America can go to the dogs because you've got like, the Proud Boys are, are holding, you know, part of the frontline in, in, I don't know, Virginia. Like, it just, it, it, it, it defies belief. And it's like, yes, these people do exist within Ukrainian society. They're not popular. They're not like, you know, beloved and, and they're not winning elections. They're not governing the country. You know, far right candidates in Europe are far more likely to get elected than they are in, in Ukraine. But Ukrainians are judged for.

• 36:31Speaker 04

  A much smaller far right situation than.

• 36:34Speaker 03

  Do remember the time like Azov was battling and Mariupol, right? And they were holding, you know, as much as they could. And there was a big, big talking point here in America about how like Azov is neo-Nazi and stuff like that. And that very well may be true that there are parts of Azov that are Azov Battalion that are that. But they were the guys defending the Mariupol part of Ukraine against an invading force like.

• 37:01Speaker 04

  So, so, so look, that, that, look, Azov started as, as a far right movement, right? And they had a far right battalion that, that start that when the war began with Russia, Russia invaded. These guys went to the east and or were already in the east and fought to defend Ukrainian territory from Russian attacks. Yes, they were, they were far right. They were also very effective fighters and they, they put their lives on the line to defend Ukraine. When, when even the state couldn't do anything in parts of the, you know? So that won a lot of respect from like, like, imagine again, imagine one of your far right, you know?

• 37:42Speaker 04

  I don't know, the fucking Boogaloo Boys or whoever, like, imagine they did something like that. And people went, okay, look, we don't agree with your politics, but like.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:51Speaker 04

  So it was kind of this, this, and, and the state, what was the state to do with this group afterwards? The, the state responded by saying, look, well done. We're going to make you an official unit of the National Guard, right? You are now a state controlled structure. You're not a militia, you're not a paramilitary, you are the National Guard of Ukraine, part, you know, part and parcel of it. In exchange for that, you will have no political activities whatsoever. Your, your far right affiliations are gone. You are just regular units inside the, the army or the National Guard. That's what happened. And like, again, what, what, what would you rather they do?

• 38:36Speaker 04

  They, would you rather they said, no, stay, stay a paramilitary or they, or they went in and did something massively unpopular by disarming, forcibly disarming these guys who, who defended like it just, you know, like there's going to be public backlash to whatever you do. An international outcry to whatever you do with anything.

• 38:57Speaker 03

  It was just crazy to me because like the, the, the talking point here in America specifically was just like, dude, there's fucking Nazis, neo Nazis everywhere you go, brother. Like, what are we talking about? Like, let's stop acting like

• 39:14Speaker 04

  You've got some of the people that are basically neo Nazis in America complaining that there are neo Nazis fighting.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:20Speaker 04

  And it's like, what are you talking about?

• 39:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  You guys agree on everything like with, with the, with the people that you're claiming exist, who do exist in a minor, minor up. There are also anarchists and socialists and communists fighting in the Ukrainian army. I know a few of them, right? They're wild. They're, they're cool guys. Come meet some of them. But again, they're fighting alongside liberals. They're fighting alongside bakers, lawyers, technicians, pianists, ballerinas. They're fighting alongside everyone. Um, and, and, and you know, their politics really, it doesn't matter at the end of the day in, in what's going on.

• 40:03Speaker 04

  There are bigger things at play than, than, than, you know, the, they Ukrainians can have these fights about what the, the, the identity of Ukraine is. Once they've secured their future and independence.

• 40:14Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah. Yeah.

• 40:15Speaker 04

  Right. And they will do. They're very good. Ukrainians are very good at fighting over politics. They'll do it on their own. They don't need you to lecture them and do it for them. Uh, but again,

• 40:25Speaker 03

  When they're fighting for their fucking freedom, like,

• 40:27Speaker 04

  Like, like, like, don't make stuff up. Like, like, okay, acknowledge Azov's history, but look at what's happened in the years since then and be like, okay, this happened and that happened and that happened. Things change, man. Things change.

• 40:40Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At The Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 40:55Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic. In a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 41:06Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 41:11Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 41:17Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At The Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At The Table and start listening on the free iHeart radio app today.

• 41:37Speaker 04

  If shit happens and then things change, then you react to things changing. Donald Trump is no longer the apprentice guy. He's the president of the United States, right? Like, you know, he was on WrestleMania and now he's in the White House. Like, I can't keep talking about him as if he's the WrestleMania guy forever because he's still the, you know, I might not like that change happening, but I have had to react to that change and respond to it. So you have to react to the change around, you know, around the world, you know? It's, times are changing, man. Times are changing. The world is a changing place.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  It's interesting. It is interesting because never in my life would I have thought far-right American, like far-right factions in America would be so pro Russia.

• 42:26Speaker 04

  It's very common in Europe. Lots of the far-right here are pro Russia. You know, look, again, when I say here, I mean in Europe. I mean, look, again, I'm a liberal and I, you know, I'm very clear and open and upfront disclosing what my, what my politics are. So, so I know I'm reaching out and I'm talking to people that I have no shared, you know, philosophy with. That's fine for the purposes of trying to explain what's happening in Ukraine.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 43:01Speaker 04

  To people who... Who are in in parts of the world that Ukraine relies on for support and and it would be a dereliction of my journalistic duty to just allow Russia to talk to these guys, you know, without anyone trying to correct the record. Again, please go and visit Russia and and try and walk around and do something and and come and visit Ukraine. Go to both countries.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Especially as an American, yeah, go visit Moscow or even see like the nicer areas and then see if you can walk around freely like it's a big deal.

• 43:34Speaker 04

  Just go, go, if you, if you're so convinced, right, that that that's the, that that's correct, prove it, go demonstrate it, you know, or or I mean, I would, I would urge you not to because Russia kidnaps Americans, holds them hostage, and then they get like criminals sent back by, you know, giving up these, you know, they held a Wall Street Journal journalist for god knows how long, right? I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, this is, this is what we're talking about.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  Brittany Griner too, who was playing ball, basketball in Russia. So she was like a well known basketball player in Russia. She got bagged for some weed and they traded her for.

• 44:17Speaker 04

  Victor Bout.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, like the Lord of War, you know what I mean?

• 44:20Speaker 04

  Like, like, like, like, are, are, are Americans really saying, oh, it's based that we sent Victor Bout back to Putin? Why does Putin want fucking Victor Bout? Like, if, if he is this, this, you know, traditional whatever, why is he, why is he getting a fucking warlord out of prison?

• 44:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 04

  Like, do you know what I mean? Like.

• 44:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, it beggars belief. You just don't, you can't, it's like two plus two equals a bag of potatoes. You know what I mean? Like.

• 44:48Speaker 04

  But look, all of these people said that Ukraine would lose, Ukraine will lose, Ukraine, Russia will crush you. First, they won't invade and then Russia will crush Ukraine. That hasn't happened. We're, we're three and a half years into this war now. We're gonna be, there's, there's more war coming and the Ukrainians are still fighting. What they're asking for is your respect firstly, right? And and your support secondly.

• 45:10Speaker 04

  Right, um, if you're not gonna offer your support, the least you could do is offer your, your respect, do you know what I mean? Like, you know, be honest about what they're going through. You can still turn around and say, you are facing an unjust assault by Russia. I still don't want to send my, my taxpayers to, fine, if that's your position, go for it, but don't give me that, that garbage that Ukrainians are, are, are, are, you know, dying against their will, and they really want to, you know, be part of Russia. It's not true. It's not true. All right, man.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  One more thing. What do you think, uh, they are in terms of like a possible ceasefire?

• 45:49Speaker 04

  So far away. So, so far away. There is no progress on that whatsoever. Even though the sides are talking, the Ukrainians are trying to demonstrate to the Americans very clearly that they are trying to talk with the Russians. Yeah. Because it's the only way, like, like, the thing is, it's, it's fine to criticize Trump for this, and I do criticize Trump for this, uh, but, but his position with Russia, like, learning the hard way by trying to deal business with Russia and trying to, Obama did this, you know, uh, Biden started doing this, Macron did this, like, Hollande did

• 46:29Speaker 04

  this, Merkel did this, like, like, all of the leaders of the world tried to give Russia what it wanted, so there wouldn't be war. And they learned the hard way that what Russia wants is war. And Donald Trump is determined to learn for himself by offering Russia everything that it wants, only for Russia to turn around and say, no, no, actually, what we want is, is more war, motherfucker. And, and Donald Trump is determined to learn this for himself, but he will learn, like every other leader has learned, uh, that's been humiliated by Putin, over and over and over again, that he sees any sign of diplomacy or negotiation as weakness, that he will exploit to further his goals. That is the way he thinks, because

• 47:14Speaker 04

  he is a mega maniacal fascist dictator who wants to conquer European land, like, you know, if, if you really care about all of this, you know, freedom and, and, and shit that you guys want to, to claim you, you support.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  You've got an opportunity here to actually stand on the right side of history where, where, where, where a dictator is coming into a democracy and trying to say to a democracy, no, you will be a dictatorship.

• 47:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 47:43Speaker 04

  In the modern day, right?

• 47:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, the choice is clear, dude. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's clear. It's, it's black and white, like, uh, Oz, thanks for this, bro. Let's do it again soon.

• 47:56Speaker 04

  My pleasure, guys. Thank you so much for listening to a liberal explained part of the world. I appreciate that it might not be a perspective that, that, that, that lots of people that might listen to this podcast want to hear, but I feel it's important to, you know, reach out to people that I wouldn't normally speak to. So, uh, yeah, listen.

• 48:13Speaker 03

  I think you'd be surprised. We're pretty pro Ukrainian here, like we're not.

• 48:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, look, there is a split. There is a split in America and I, I, I, I understand that split and I'm trying to, to bridge across that split. So I think, I think that's important, but listen, thanks so much for listening to me, guys, and you have a great, uh, great evening. All right?

• 48:30Speaker 03

  Thanks, Oz.

• 48:31Speaker 04

  Turo.

• 48:32Speaker 03

  See you, brother.

• 48:34Jack Murphy?

  Hey guys, it's Jack. I just want to talk to you for a moment about how you can support the show. If you've been watching it, enjoying it, um, but you'd like to get a little bit more involved and help us continue to do this, you can check out our Patreon. It is patreon.com slash the team house. And for $5 a month, you can get access to all of these episodes of the team house ad free. The same goes with our affiliated podcast, Eyes On with Andy Milburn, Jason Lyons, Mc Mulroy. That one, you will also get all of those episodes ad free and you support the channel and the show and we really appreciate it. The Patreon members are literally what has helped this company, this small business survive, um, especially during our early years.

• 49:19Jack Murphy?

  And you are what continues to help this thing going even as we navigate the turbulent world of YouTube advertising. So we really appreciate all of you guys. There's going to be a link down in the description to that Patreon page. And there is also going to be a link to our new merch shop. So if you guys want to go and get some team house merchandise, we got stickers and we also have patches. And I should mention, if you sign up for Patreon at $10 a month, we will mail you this patch as well. So we really appreciate that. But they're also for sale on the merch shop. And additionally, they got T-shirts up there, water bottles, a tote bag, coffee mugs, all that good stuff.

• 50:03Jack Murphy?

  So please go and check them out.

• 50:05Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 50:20Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 50:31Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 50:36Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 50:42Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 51:01Jack Murphy?

  out and support the show. We really appreciate it, guys. Thank you.

• 51:10Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 51:24Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant. So I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 51:35Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 51:41Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 51:46Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 52:14Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Jenna Oshkowitz. You might know me from Glee. This is At the Table, the food allergy podcast, a show about food, connection, and what it really looks like to live with food allergies. Each episode, we hear stories from real people like Daniel.

• 52:29Speaker 06

  People would always think I was lactose intolerant, so I just kind of shortened my explanation to I'm deathly allergic, in a big way that defined a lot of my childhood.

• 52:40Speaker 05

  And while there are challenges, there are moments that remind you you're not alone.

• 52:45Speaker 07

  One of the best guys that I dated, he made a point to memorize all my food allergies.

• 52:51Speaker 05

  So join us and hear their stories and more, because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to At the Table, the food allergy podcast, on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow At the Table and start listening on the free iHeart Radio app today.

• 53:11Speaker 00

  She's been thinking about this sleepover all week, but I think about her food allergies all the time. Fortunately, her doctor prescribed Zolair, omalizumab. It's proven to significantly reduce allergic reactions if a food allergy accident happens.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Zolair 150mg is a prescription medication used to treat food allergy in people one year of age and older to reduce allergic reactions due to accidental exposure to one or more foods. While taking Zolair, you should continue to avoid all foods to which you are allergic. Don't use if you are allergic to Zolair. Zolair may cause a severe, life-threatening allergic reaction called anaphylaxis. Tell your doctor if you ever had anaphylaxis. Get help right away if you have trouble breathing or if you have swelling of your throat or tongue. Zolair should not be used for the emergency treatment of allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis. Zolair is for maintenance use to reduce allergic reactions, including anaphylaxis, while avoiding food allergens. Serious side effects such as cancer, fever, muscle aches and rash, parasitic infection, or heart and circulation problems have been reported. Please see zolair.com for full prescribing information. Ask an allergist about Zolair.

• 54:07Speaker 01

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