Lisa Bilyeu: Transcend the Purgatory of the Mundane

Here to illuminate truths big and small on all things self-confidence, relationships, mindset, and more is entrepreneur turned author Lisa Bilyeu. Lisa is the co-founder of Quest Nutrition a company she helped grow into a billion-dollar unicorn alongside her husband and friend of the pod Tom Bilyeu. She’s also co-founder and President of the digital-first media enterprise Impact Theory Studios, where among many other duties she hosts Women of Impact, a show that is all about empowering women to become the heroes of their own lives. In addition, Lisa is the author of the recently released Radical Confidence, a memoir and practical toolbox for developing a growth mindset and transcending what she calls the ‘purgatory of the mundane’. Our conversation covered quite a bit, including: the importance of intentional communication in marriage and relationships; developing a growth mindset—and why you don’t have to hit bottom to change; how gratitude can in some cases hold you back; thoughts on setting healthy boundaries, finding a mission, and many other topics. Lisa is a unique force of nature. She might be petite, but don’t be fooled. She definitely packs a punch. Today’s episode is also viewable on YouTube: https://bit.ly/lisabilyeu687 More about Lisa + show notes: https://bit.ly/richroll687 If you feel stuck in a life scenario that isn’t serving you and looking for a constructive, empowering way forward, this one’s for you. Lisa is an absolute firecracker. Enjoy! Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  Confidence to me was like how you feel about yourself. So people want to feel great before they start anything. I was the same. I was, "Oh, I'm gonna start my YouTube channel once I have the confidence." And so what ends up happening is people don't actually take action because they're waiting for the confidence to come. The confidence part will come over time. It will come with action. It will come with repetition. It will come with gaining competence. The confidence is the byproduct. And so if we can stop focusing on the confidence and have radical confidence, which to me means you have insecurities, you have doubts in yourself, you actually probably are not equipped for what you're about to do. But you still show up and do it anyway. You don't allow your negative mindset, the voice in your head that's saying, "You're

• 0:46Speaker 00

  not worthy, you're not good enough." You don't let it take over. What's that mission? What's that reason you get up every day? Money and success doesn't buy you happiness. How you feel about yourself does. That's it. How you feel about yourself. So do I feel healthy? Do I feel good? Do I have a healthy mindset? Am I proud of myself? Do I get up every day and fight for something bigger than myself? If I can keep answering those as yes, then I know I'm doing the right thing.

• 1:23Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. What is happening today? Well, today, we're gonna talk about self-confidence. We're gonna talk about relationships, communication, mindset, and tons more with entrepreneur-turned-author Lisa Bilyeu. Lisa is the co-founder, along with her husband and friend of the podcast, Tom Bilyeu, of a company called Quest Nutrition, which is a company she was instrumental in helping grow into a billion-dollar unicorn. And she's also the co-founder and president of Impact Theory Studios, a digital-first

• 2:03Rich Roll?

  media company where, among many other duties, she hosts Women of Impact, a show that is all about empowering women to become the heroes of their own lives, which is a theme that predominates, that pervades her new book, Radical Confidence, a memoir slash practical toolbox for developing a growth mindset and for transcending what she calls "the purgatory of the mundane." It's all coming up, but first.

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  Okay, Lisa Bilyeu. So Lisa is a unique force of nature. She might be petite, but she definitely, definitely packs a punch. And this one covers quite a bit. We discuss the importance of intentional communication in marriage and relationships. We talk about developing a growth mindset and why you don't have to hit bottom to change. We also discuss, interestingly, how gratitude can, in some cases, hold you back and why it's important to be in relationship with your own negative self-talk. Plus, thoughts on setting healthy

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  boundaries, finding a mission, and many other topics. If you're somebody who feels stuck in a life scenario, or a career, or a job, or a profession, or a relationship that isn't quite serving you, and you're looking for a constructive, empowering way forward, then I think this one's for you. Lisa is an absolute delight. I really enjoy talking to her. So let's get on with it. This is me and Lisa Bilyeu.

• 3:49Rich Roll?

  I'm really glad to have you here today. It took a minute for us to get it together, but always delighted to be in your presence. Congratulations on the new book. There's so much stuff to talk about. And I just look forward to enjoying your energy.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  I'm so excited, Rich. Seriously.

• 4:05Rich Roll?

  So I know Tom a little bit, and we've spent, you know, we've done each other's shows and all of that kind of stuff. And one of the things that I always respect and kind of admire about him is how quick he is to make sure that you're part of any conversation around his success and what he does.

• 4:26Rich Roll?

  You know, he's always saying, it's like, it's Lisa and me, we're partners, we're equal partners. Like, you gotta understand where Lisa's coming from and how much she's contributed to all of this. It's very similar to the relationship that I have with my wife in terms of kind of what we've built together and individually. And when you share that perspective with somebody, you typically get that response of, "Well, behind every great man, there's a strong woman." And like, I hate that. My wife hates that. Because it's still a very condescending perspective. It means that the woman is standing behind the man.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  It's so true, and I used to be conflicted with it because being, coming from a very traditional Greek background, that was kind of what you were taught that is going to be your identity. So originally, I actually was very proud of that. And so as I would see Tom grow into the person he is today, like, I was very proud to feel like, you know, I'm behind the scenes and I have his back and it's, you know, big help because of me. But you're right, over time, I started to realize, actually, it's kind of positioning me as being secondary. Have you read Rocket Fuel?

• 5:29Rich Roll?

  Uh-uh.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Ah, so good. So it basically explains how, in most dynamics, whether it's business or relationships, you've got the one that's the more dominant, the big shiny object, the one that has the, you know, basically the rocket, the beast. And then you have the fuel that is behind the rocket. But without the fuel, the rocket doesn't move. And so that book really allowed me to codify kind of mine and Tom's relationship and feeling like, I am just as valuable. And to your point of being behind the person, it doesn't feel like that analogy makes you seem as equals. And so the rocket fuel analogy was so perfect for me when I heard it.

• 6:07Rich Roll?

  Right. What's interesting about the book is that conservative, traditional perspective. Like, for many years, there was a lot of pride in, "I'm supporting Tom and that's my role. I'm CEO of Bill U Industries. Tom's going to work, I'm taking care of everything else." Like, very traditional and obviously, you know, an outgrowth or a reflection of the way that you were raised and a certain level of unapologetic pride about that.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  But I feel like part of that... Growth equation for you or arc has been stepping out from behind that shadow, owning your own space. And that's really, you know, part of the whole narrative here.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And actually, as you were talking, I realized a big part of it was I didn't feel like I had the confidence to be standing next to him. And so it felt actually comfortable being behind him, feeling like the supportive wife. Because when you step out in front and you own your thoughts, you own the way you you act, the way you show up every day, that can be very scary. And when you don't have confidence, it actually deters you from wanting to step out in front.

• 7:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think, you know, and you address this in the book. It's easy for people to look at you and Tom and see this very successful, glamorous couple, living, you know, a certain kind of lifestyle, and enjoying a certain level of success and impacting a lot of people. While you're doing it and say, well, that's just an inaccessible situation for me to relate to. They're who they are, but I'm who I am. And and your book is really an attempt to like decode that and deconstruct that and and paint this picture of like the truth. And what was amazing was, you know, reading, like, I've heard Tom talk about this, like, you don't understand how hard it was and where we came from and all of that. But you really filled in the gaps on that.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 7:53Rich Roll?

  It was a really hard fought, long road to get to where you guys are.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that was a big part of why I wrote the book is that so many people ask me, Rich, like, my God, I want your confidence. And I'm like, A, you have no idea, you know, how I started, you know, I was that 14 year old girl that was just bullied and teased for my looks. And I was put in a special class for being mildly dyslexic and holding my pencil the wrong way. And I felt really badly about myself. And so when people were saying to me now, like, oh, my God, you're so confident. I was like, I still don't feel it. You should still hear the voice in my head that is utterly negative on anything that I do. And so to me, that it was imperative to write a book and call it Radical Confidence, because to me, it wasn't the traditional way that people think of it. I'm still scared. I'm still nervous. I still doubt myself all the time.

• 8:39Speaker 00

  But how do I keep showing up? It's really to not listen to the negative thoughts. To have a toolbox that you can dive into and you don't feel great about yourself. Like, how do you pick yourself back up? That's the thing that I really wanted to emphasize in the book. Because to paint the vision of perfection doesn't serve anyone. It doesn't even, it doesn't serve me. If I think I'm perfect, where's there to go? Where's there to grow? So it was very important to be so honest about where I come from, how I still think. And I still have that negative voice that's telling me I'm no good. I just don't let it get in my way.

• 9:12Rich Roll?

  Well, we're gonna get the growth mindset stuff and the radical confidence stuff. But let's set the stage a little bit and fill in the gaps. Walk us through your background a little bit. Growing up in this conservative Greek family in the UK and coming to Los Angeles and meeting Tom and kind of everything that ensued.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was a kid that had big dreams. Like, I was getting up at three in the morning to watch the Academy Awards, like, as a kid in London. Because I, honestly, I loved movies. It was an escape for me.

• 9:41Speaker 00

  Because I didn't feel great about myself, because I was teased, because girls weren't very nice to me in school. I found movies to be such a beautiful way to escape and to dream big. And so as a kid, I was like, I wanna make movies, I wanna make films. And so I came to America, I do this film course, and my teacher happens to be my husband.

• 10:01Rich Roll?

  Well, let's hold on for a second. I wanna drill down a little bit more.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Let's do it.

• 10:05Rich Roll?

  I love these stories of you in high school, like, sneaking into movie premieres and all of that. Like, that's how far you took this. And, and my sense of that is that, you know, you were a dreamer in the context of, you know, a family situation that was driving you towards marriage, kids, something very safe, secure, traditional, and was really muting that higher ambition that you had. Like, you had, you know, something that you aspired to that extended beyond what was acceptable in your house.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  Yes, thank you, actually. That's so on point and very important to mention. Because as I was this kid that was having these big dreams, watching movies, my dad was always telling me that I would end up being a stay-at-home wife. And now, look, he didn't mean that to be cruel, he didn't wanna be mean. But where he came from, a tiny, tiny village in the mountains of Cyprus, where literally a toilet was a hole in the floor. And so because there were a limited amount of kids that could go to school in the village, he was one of the chosen ones and he was a boy. And so he just saw, no woman ever got chosen because there was no contraception. So women didn't get chosen because they were going to get pregnant very early on anyway. So that mentality, that idea, that notion is exactly what my dad had and instilled in me growing up.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  So when I wanted to, you know, had these big dreams, I want to go to America, I want to make film. All I got was, well, you'll end up being a stay at home wife. And even to the point where I was this kid falling on the floor, scraping my knee, you know, like as kids do, my yaya, my grandmother would come running over to me. And in her big thick grey cats, and she'd go, oh, you'll be okay by the time you get married, it's okay. Think about that messaging. Think about what that does to a little girl over and over and over again. That every time you're upset, every time you're hurt, she comforts you with a notion that, don't worry, you'll be okay by the time you get married. So really, she's kind of setting the stage as marriage being the end goal. That's like the highlight of your life.

• 12:00Rich Roll?

  And even your dad going so far as to say, when you were struggling in school, to just sort of say, well, you know, it's not going to be that big of a deal because ultimately you're just going to end up being married and, you know, it won't matter.

• 12:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wanted to study film because I was like, I want to be a movie director, I've got these big dreams. And so, yeah, we argued for like two weeks and in the end he was just like, ah, it doesn't matter anyway, you'll be a stay at home wife. Again, he didn't mean it to be malicious, that was just his perspective. But when I think about how we show up and who we become, it really does, I think, stem from who we were as kids and what we're told we're going to be. So even though I had these big dreams, my belief system overtook the dream that was inside me.

• 12:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you come to LA to do this, it's New York Film Academy, right? I know that they have that summer program because I looked into it for one of my kids, where you get to be on the back lot.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 12:54Rich Roll?

  Warner's, right?

• 12:54Speaker 00

  At Universal Studios, yeah.

• 12:57Rich Roll?

  And it looks like a really cool program.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:59Rich Roll?

  And I didn't know that, like, so Tom was like the teacher?

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, so what happened was, I finished film school. So I end up going to film school because my dad was like, well, study whatever you want, it doesn't really matter. So I go to film school and I didn't get the experience in movie directing. Now, I had the dream, I was going to be the first female to win Academy Awards as movie director. Katherine Bigelow beat me to it, but anyway, that was what I wanted to do. So when I went to my dad after college, and it cost money because it was a private, you know, four week, eight week course. We argued and eventually he's like, all right, let's just make a deal. When you go there, when you come back, you're going to get a job and be serious. Now, when he says get a job, it basically is a job to tie you over until you get married. Because then as soon as you get married, the expectation is you quit your job and you have kids. So when I had this course that I really wanted to go to, he eventually said yes.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  I go to America thinking it's gonna be an eight week course and I walk in and Tom is my teacher.

• 13:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:54Rich Roll?

  I love how you describe, you know, him at that time. It just seems, you know, so different than the Tom we all know.

• 14:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, it really is. And that's part of my story and our story is that neither of us had growth mindsets when we met. We had very different lives. We came from very different backgrounds and that was partly the big hurdle we had to get over with my family. Where I was the first person in my family to marry outside of the Greek culture. And so all the, you know, the pushback that we got from that and, um, you know, then having a growth mindset and developing to be in the people we are today.

• 14:28Rich Roll?

  Right, and you know, hence ensues this long struggle where you guys are just, you know, trying to make ends meet and living in a tiny apartment and driving a beater car and all the kind of stuff that happens when you're young in Hollywood and have a dream. But one thing that, you know, Tom always talks about, and I don't mean to be continuing to bring it back to Tom.

• 14:47Speaker 00

  Not at all.

• 14:48Rich Roll?

  It's just my frame of reference is, uh, you know, it seems like he felt this obligation or had made this promise, like, I'm gonna create a large life for my wife. And that was part of how he wins over your family or your dad. And that seems to really drive him, like his commitment to following through on that promise.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  Yes, that is very true. And that was kind of one of the early signs for me that he was very special in my life. So he, we wanted to get married. He went to my dad to ask for his blessing and my dad just said no. My dad came from a very traditional Greek family. So, you know, for him, he was like, well, first of all, the cultures are different. How can this ever work? What's gonna happen to your kids? You know, you're not even christened, you can't get married in a Greek church. So my dad was seeing all the things of why it wouldn't work. And then Tom, yeah, his famous words.

• 15:38Rich Roll?

  Do you leave out the part about being an atheist?

• 15:42Speaker 00

  He did leave it out. I was like, babe, just don't tell my dad that. Um, but he was one of those people. He said, look, if this is important to you, I'll absolutely get christened. And, you know, it doesn't mean that you're changing my beliefs. So if you can just respect that I still believe in what I believe in. But if this is important to you. And so it was those moments that showed who he was. Um, the moments where he showed my, he just said to my dad, you know, I respectfully hear you and thank you for giving me your opinion, but I still plan to ask your daughter to marry me. Um, and my, because my dad came from nowhere, like literally nothing. And he'd built his wealth and success and, you know, a house roof over his head. That was what he saw. And so he turned to Tom and he's like, you don't even really have a job. Like at that point, Tom was, you know, part time. He was moving to England so that we

• 16:27Speaker 00

  could try and be together or temporarily moving to England. So my dad was like, you can't even support her. You know, how are you going to take care of my daughter? Very traditional. And so Tom famously said, look, I know who you see today may not be, you know, who you think I can become, but I know what I'm made of. And I'm going to show you one day that I will take care of your daughter. And all of this is without me in the room. But it was just a promise that he made to my dad. And it was, it was, I think, a beautiful push for Tom as well. You know, he held on to that. He held on to the doubt. And it wasn't doubt in a cruel way. It was just my dad just saw, in essence, the facts. It's like, you've got a part time job. You know, you're not earning that much money. You're in lots of college debt. Um, and my daughter has a roof over her head. She's

• 17:12Speaker 00

  very comfortable, you know, and you're trying to take her away across the world. Um, and I don't even know who you are. And because he couldn't relate to his culture, because Tom, you know, wasn't christened and didn't have much of a cultural background, my dad was just like, this could never work.

• 17:25Rich Roll?

  Beyond that, the bullseye that you're aiming for is like threading a needle. That the success, you know, that you aspire to eludes most people. I mean, every year, you know, busloads of people arrive in Hollywood. They've got a dream of being in the movies. And before long, you know, they're working some kind of part time job or whatever. And most of them flame out and leave or just settle into whatever career path is ancillary to the thing that they really aspire to do. And, and that really is the beginning of, of your path as well. Like Tom ends up in some job. Your home prepping meals and wondering what you're doing with your life. And that goes on for a long time. Like, I think people, if they Google you, it's like, oh, Quest and like this huge success story.

• 18:10Rich Roll?

  But there was a lot of hardship, you know, during that period of time of just making ends meet, of course, but also this idea of you settling into this purgatory of the mundane, which is a big theme of the book.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was really hard. And I think that that's the thing I try to lean into now more and more in talking about. Because I never hit rock bottom. And how many people, you know, have you seen or met in your life that their successes came because they hit rock bottom?

• 18:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've raised my hand right here.

• 18:39Speaker 00

  Oh, right. So that, right, it's like, you've got nothing to lose, so why not go for it? But what about someone like myself, who I didn't hit rock bottom? If you'd asked me at the time, and people did, oh, how are you? Fine, I'm all right. It wasn't exciting, nothing bad enough to jolt me into action. And I stayed there for eight years, and that's why I call it the purgatory of the mundane. It's like you're this hamster just running on a wheel and actually not going anywhere. And so because of that, I didn't think that I had the right to ask for more because I didn't hit rock bottom. And I'd heard so many stories of other people who had real hardships. And so for the first couple of years where I, you had said earlier, president of Bilyeu Enterprises,

• 19:24Speaker 00

  which basically was my title for being a stay-at-home wife.

• 19:27Rich Roll?

  Right, it's like a whitewashed version of saying you're a housewife.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Exactly. So I, I use gratitude. And I was like, you know, for the first year, we're just doing this for the greater good. Tom was gonna try and make enough money so we can make movies. So we kind of had a plan. And so I was like, okay, I can do it for the greater good. I don't like cooking, I don't like cleaning, but you know what? I can do this for a year, I can do this for 18 months. And so every time I would find myself unhappy, miserable, thinking to myself, how did I end up here when this wasn't the life that I wanted? I use gratitude to remind myself of, I had an amazing husband, I had a roof over my head, so many people don't. Now, year three, year four, year five, year six, year seven, year eight, that gratitude is exactly what kept me stuck.

• 20:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a really interesting point that you make. The downside of gratitude or how relying on gratitude can prevent you from believing in something better for yourself.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:22Rich Roll?

  If you're always told to just be grateful for what you have, then you're going to settle or you're going to be reluctant to, you know, reach for a higher place.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  Exactly. And that was exactly what happened to me where I used it as an empowering tool, which I think it can be beautiful so that you don't just have a negative mindset all the time. So, you know, shifting that perspective can be beautiful. The problem was is that it stopped me from ever then speaking up. And so in year, you know, five and six, where I was like, this is not the life I wanted. I was like, well, how ungrateful for you, Lisa. Your husband's out every day working. You don't have to work. I'm cooking, I'm cleaning, but I don't have to go to a nine to five or anything like that. How ungrateful for you. You know, how ungrateful are you to want more and say that you're unhappy when you have a roof over your head, when you have food to eat and other people don't? And so that gratitude piece absolutely made me stay where I was and it didn't allow me to speak up and say, hang on a minute.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  Yes, I can be grateful for this. I can absolutely be grateful for having a husband that loves me and a roof over my head. But that doesn't and shouldn't dismiss this other side of it where I'm profoundly unhappy. Like, why do we dismiss other areas of our lives because we should be grateful for one area?

• 21:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think this is the most accessible and relatable aspect of your whole story. I mean, I think there's, you know, there's millions of people out there who are in some version of that reality where everything's kind of okay and we can just perpetuate the status quo ad infinitum. And maybe next year there'll be a promotion or something like that and we can go on a vacation. There's nothing inherently wrong with anything that's happening. It's not really the life that I aspired to have, but like, who am I to aspire to that? Like, I have it pretty good. And without that bottom or that kind of intervening interruption, like an illness or something to shake you out of. Your kind of daydream of the life that you're living,

• 22:14Rich Roll?

  it's hard to have the level of self-reflection to make those changes. Like, I know all the positive changes that I've made in my life have really been driven by pain. And that pain can be emotional, physical, existential, but it has to reach a certain level of acuteness in order to get my attention. So it actually takes a stronger person and a lot more kind of wherewithal to have your wits about you to course correct when things aren't cataclysmic.

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And that's why it's like, it really did feel like it was purgatory. It was like, I wasn't moving either way.

• 22:47Rich Roll?

  So what is the inflection point? I mean, I know growth mindset enters stage left and Tom starts to develop this interest and you just start to, you know, do the same. And that really begins to shift the energy and the trajectory here. But like, how did that actually function? Like, what exactly transpired?

• 23:05Speaker 00

  So we had been doing it for eight years. Eventually it turned into, we were trying to make enough money to make movies and then it just turned into just making enough money.

• 23:13Rich Roll?

  Right, that can become a delusion, right? Like, someday we're gonna make movies, but we gotta make the money first. Or, you know, I went to law school and it was like, well, I didn't go to law school so I could work in a big corporate law firm, but I gotta pay these loans off. And, you know, when I get enough money, then I'll end up pursuing the thing that I actually wanna do. Most people never get to that because they're so unhappy, they start to overspend to compensate for their lack of happiness until they're so leveraged that they're stuck in a situation they never wanted to be in in the first place.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's so true. And so like, to your point, I literally say, oh, we'll do this when? And, oh, we'll do it when we have enough money, when we have enough time, when I have the confidence. There's always like, we'll do it when? And so the thing that I'd love to ask your audience right now is like, what when are they looking at?

• 23:59Rich Roll?

  Well, the goalposts always move. Because as soon as you get close to that and it becomes a potential reality, that's too frightening, so we have to push it out again.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's fascinating. That's so interesting. Why do you think we do that?

• 24:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know, it's because the fear of the unknown exceeds like the discomfort of the current, you know, I think people are afraid of what would happen if they actually put themselves on the line. And there's a certain comfort level in just continuing along the current path, you know, and there's a level of, you know, emotional self sabotage that I think certain people have. I know what that feels like.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, thousand percent. I love that. So yeah, it was after eight years, we were doing the same. It was like, oh, well, we'll do this.

• 24:45Rich Roll?

  Eight years.

• 24:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, we'll do this when I'll speak up when when we have enough money, then I'll be happy. When my husband feels successful, he'll be happy. So then I'll be happy. And so there was always the when. And eventually what happened was we would end up chasing money. And to me, I'd always made a commitment like I was okay with actually being unhappy. I wasn't okay with my relationship breaking. And when I started to see that Tom's unhappiness and my unhappiness was causing our relationship to fracture, it almost gave me the jolt I needed to say, Hey, I don't care about money. Like, what the hell are we doing right now? I've lost my husband. You don't seem happy. I've lost who you are, your personality. I'm not happy. So what on earth are we doing this for? So let's just reassess what our

• 25:29Speaker 00

  life should look like. And of course, surprise, surprise, we tried to run away from the problem. So it was like, oh, well, we'll just quit and move countries. That should be fine. We'll go to Greece and we'll just write and we'll be happy. And so in that process, Tom had had these two business partners. So for the eight years, they were trying to make enough money, build a company. And so eventually he's like, All right, I'll go in and quit. And on paper, we had earned a couple of million dollars. But we were both of the mindsets. If you don't cross the finish line, you don't get the payout. We weren't willing to cross the finish line. And so that was one of those moments was like, Oh, money doesn't buy happiness.

• 26:01Rich Roll?

  Well, they kept saying they were going to sell the company, right? And that kind of dragged along and kept you in it longer than you wanted to be.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:08Rich Roll?

  Because that never happened. And it wasn't until, didn't you guys decide, Okay, Tom's going to quit? He goes in to quit. And then it was one more thing like, okay, six more months and then we're gonna change the way we're doing things and we're gonna try this other thing.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, the difference in that situation. So after the eight years, we finally had the talk, this isn't good for our relationship. What's the point in success if you're not happy? We're chasing money. We're on paper now got a couple of million dollars that we've helped build this other company and yet we're the most unhappy we've ever been. So the change was to go in and quit and finally he did. And that was the pivot where he went in, told his business partners and they admitted they were unhappy too. And so in that, they said, okay, now we've at least been honest with each other. We need to come up with a path and a strategy to get out. So they put, they said, okay, let's give ourselves six months. And because they had made the change of actually discussing their unhappiness, I really did think, okay, this was different.

• 27:01Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  And so they were just saying for the next six months, we're gonna try and actually sell the company and we're gonna build another company that's predicated on passion, desire and mission.

• 27:11Rich Roll?

  Right. And that meant we're gonna make these nutrition bars, even though there's a bazillion other nutrition bar brands out there. Like, that's gonna be our ticket.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, there was, I think there was like 1500 protein bars on the market and someone in the field actually said, there's 1500 bars, we need another bar like we need a hole in the head.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  So that was the feedback we got when we had the idea. So as the Greek wife, I was like, babe, how can I support you? You're on this new venture. I'm so happy for you. You actually seem excited because my mom and his mom were clinically obese. And so Tom's like, babe, I can get up every day and fight for my mom. Like, I can fight for her to, you know, help on this health journey. And so that's why it was very important for him to really kind of go all in. So I said, okay, as your wife, how can I help? And so as they were trying to get, sell this tech company on the side, they're like, okay, well, you're the only one that's free. Do you mind just shipping a couple of bars from the living room floor? And then it was like, well, you're free. Do you mind just like weighing some

• 28:13Speaker 00

  ingredients? Well, you're free. Do you mind just go? And so it just kept being like, well, you're free. Do you mind helping out? Because no one else was available. And so in that, in shipping bars from my living room floor, having to figure out how I go to the post office and mail, you know, a hundred boxes instead of four, every step of the way, these tiny little things, I had these, these bumps and these hurdles and these obstacles. And in those moments where the old Lisa would have been like, well, I don't know what I'm doing. I better not do it because I have no confidence. Because our house was up for collateral. In those moments, I was like, all right, you can actually not do it and lose your house, Lisa, or you can figure it out.

• 28:50Rich Roll?

  Right, it's accidental entrepreneur.

• 28:53Speaker 00

  It was.

• 28:53Rich Roll?

  On some level, it's sort of like, all right, well, what's the problem we have to solve today? It's not like we're building a billion dollar company. It's like, I need to figure out how to get these bars wrapped in packaging and shipped to this certain place. At the same time, I'm interested in like, what happened to the whole movie thing? Like, so is this still like a vehicle to making movies? Like, we're gonna do this bar company and we're just pushing the goalposts out on on the movie thing? Or did that get supplanted by the kind of excitement and joy and level of engagement that came with like, building a company that you cared about?

• 29:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it was one of those moments where it was like, okay, we wanted to make movies as kids, we really loved the idea, we met, we definitely dreamt about it. And we had both of us worked on movies, sets, when we first got married.

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's not what you think it's gonna be.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  It was not what you thought. I had an actor throw a matchbox at me, I mean, like, actually threw a matchbox at me and I was like, does this really happen? Like, you kind of hear about it in Hollywood, but you don't actually think it's actually gonna happen. And Tom had just an equally bad experience on a movie set. And so both of us were just like, we weren't willing to be disrespected, like, it's not the world we come from. And so I was like, I don't know if I want this dream of working on these film sets where people can easily just disrespect you, depending on what your title is, like, that just didn't feel right to me. And so that's where the crazy idea from Tom was like, well, babe, we should just make enough money so we can make our own movies. And that way, we hire our own team and no one can disrespect each other.

• 30:24Speaker 00

  Seemed like an easy, naive thought when we first got married. But as we then started to chase the money and that evolved into absolute unhappiness.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  After those eight years, we just sat down and said, what would actually bring us happiness? Like, if it's not movies, because right now, to make movies, especially how we were dreaming, you know, the big budget, it was just, it wasn't feasible. We would have to keep chasing money. And we saw where that led. And so in that moment, it was like, what is actually going to fill our heart? What is actually going to help us feel alive again? And it was in that discussion, which then led Tom to protein. So his business partners all had like their own selfish desires, we call it, right? One of the guys was obsessed with nutrition. And the other guy was just obsessed with working out. And so Tom was just like, his own reason, he could get behind it, to fight for his mom. And when you have a mission like that, that is

• 31:19Speaker 00

  so tied to you, and you've been chasing money for so long, he was just like, babe, this makes me feel good about myself. This makes me be able to face the things that I'm not good at, and be able to push myself to be better.

• 31:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:38Rich Roll?

  So you guys have been together a long time.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  About to celebrate a 20 year wedding anniversary.

• 31:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've been with my wife a little over 20 years at this point. So I know what that feels like. Yeah, it's amazing. But in the story you just told, like what I hear, and what kind of recurs throughout the book, and every time I listen to you talk and Tom talk, is a level of intentionality that you bring to your relationship. Like, there's a very conscious, deliberate, persistent effort to come together and communicate very clearly, what are we doing? What do you want out of life? What do I want out of life? What are we doing on a daily basis that's furthering that? Like, there's an honesty. And I, you know, I think, you know, when you're with somebody for 20 years, it's easy to kind of go on autopilot. And every relationship ebbs and flows and has its peaks and valleys, et cetera. But, you know,

• 32:27Rich Roll?

  it feels like that's very top of mind. And like Tom says, like, the most important thing in my life is my relationship with my wife. And the kind of level of intentionality that you bring to that kind of communication, I think is really interesting and rare. So let's like, pause on the timeline a little bit, and like, drill down on that.

• 32:47Speaker 00

  I'd love to. So growing up. I just saw couples relate to each other and they seemed like, especially couples that had been together for a long time. There was a lot of contempt, I just saw in so many different couples and animosity and um sliding like negative comments at each other like

• 33:06Rich Roll?

  Like little passive aggressive.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  Passive aggressive comments, yeah. And I just thought like, it didn't sit well with me, even as a kid, I was like, but don't you guys love each other? Like, don't you wanna be nice to each other? Obviously being naive and just to kind of having that like, you know, blanket statement in my head. But when Tom and I met, my parents were divorced and so were his. And so we just had the honest conversations, like neither of us want to end up like our parents. And what did that mean? And I kept hearing people saying, well, relationships shouldn't be work. And even that didn't sit well with me because I was like, hang on a minute. Do you think a business, if you want to grow a business, a successful business, do you think you have to spend time, energy on that business? I was like, yes. So then why wouldn't a relationship be that? Why don't you think of it like it is a business in the sense of, is it always thriving?

• 33:52Speaker 00

  And if it's not, what do you have to do differently? Um. And so that really set the stage for both of us to say, okay, we both know where we want to go and now it's about figuring out how to get there. Because we wanna be married for the rest of our lives, but happily married for the rest of our lives. So we just created over time rules of engagement in our relationship. So for instance, number one, we never joke about divorce, ever. We call it the D word in the family. It's like Voldemort, like you can't say the word in the household because we don't even joke about it. Because we don't want that subliminal messaging to get in, you know, in each other's minds. Um, non-negotiables, I have two non-negotiables that I said to him from the beginning. I said, if you ever cheat on me or if you ever lay a finger on me like abusively, I will be out the door.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  And just to set him up for success, because I want the relationship to succeed. I said, babe, and just to be clear, there's no discussing it. If either of those two things happen, I will pack my bags and I will be out the door before you have time to give me a reason. So just bear that in mind, right? Like it became this, set each other up for success because we both want this relationship to work.

• 34:57Rich Roll?

  Right. And how do you maintain that over time? Because it's one thing to set that.

• 35:04Rich Roll?

  Straight up front, but then as the years go by and life takes over and you're busy and it's all about the businesses and the things that you're creating, it's pretty easy to let that slide as a priority.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 35:19Rich Roll?

  Not that you forget about it, but maybe it doesn't get the attention that it did in your first couple of years of marriage.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  Yes, you're so right. So we actually worried about that. So we sat down and said, okay, what's the responsibilities we own in this relationship? And what I mean by that is I have a better radar that me and my husband aren't spending quality time together quicker than he does. Now, so just like in a business, right, where you're like someone, I'm very good at logistics. My husband's not good at logistics at all. So when it comes to business, when there's something needed for logistics, he comes to me. There's no ego involved, there's no nothing. He's like, I know that you're better, so even if I disagree with you, you're the responsible party. And so we have that in our relationship, who's the responsible party that when we start to feel like we are not connecting, who's better at it? And so I said, I am. So we made an agreement, okay, then I'm never going to abuse it, I'm never going to just

• 36:09Speaker 00

  do it for any reason, but if I do say, hey babe, we need to spend time together, he will reciprocate. He won't push back, he won't say, what do you mean? We just spent time together. He will trust that I'm the responsible party to do that. And so we've just come up with negotiations. It's like, okay, so if I say this, I need you to reciprocate because let's face it, if you do that and you keep getting someone saying, no, no, what do you mean? I know. Eventually you just give up. So I said to him, for me to be encouraged to do this, you need to reply with this phrase, with this way of thinking and thank me because I don't want to feel like I'm fighting for our relationship and I don't want to feel like you're not. So we came up with language that we use, we come up with ways to engage each other.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  So for instance, I know Tom's terrible at his calendar and so if I want a date night, I don't take it personally that he doesn't think about it, I just actually make sure that it gets done. So I go to his assistant, I say, hey, I need time with him at this time for this many hours, please make that happen. And then Tom will look at his calendar and he will turn up with a smile on his face.

• 37:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:08Speaker 00

  But all of this doesn't happen by accident and that was the key. And even in our relationship, when it came to, because we have grown two businesses together, you can imagine that sometimes gets a bit messy.

• 37:18Rich Roll?

  Sure, yeah, I mean, I know what it's like to collaborate with my wife to build something professionally. And for the most part, it's a tremendous joy. And I think the sum of our parts, you know, exceeds our individual roles. And there's something really beautiful to be celebrated and all of that. And then we kind of go into our separate corners and create our own stuff. And that's a cool thing, too. But I know all too well how tricky it can be when you're working together and living together, where work bleeds into into your personal life. There's no real boundaries. Boundaries is a big theme in the book, like how do you set those healthy boundaries? And and then everything, all the communication becomes sort of transactional about, you know, shipping or whatever, you know, like

• 38:03Rich Roll?

  whatever it is with your business.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 38:05Rich Roll?

  So it's like, you're out to dinner, and you can't talk about anything other than the thing that you both care about, which is this business that you're trying to build. And before you know it, the relationship is withering on the vine.

• 38:16Speaker 00

  It's so true. And we felt that. And look, everything that I'm saying now is, we've had all of those issues. And so every time we have that moment where I'm like, oh, my God, we go to dinner, all we do is talk about work. It's like, okay, wow, we've slipped back into this. What am I going to do differently next time? And so I do a lot of that. It's like, what are the things we're going to do when we start to see ourselves getting into an unhealthy pattern? Because I don't beat myself up or us up for falling into certain traps. I just pride myself on being the person that notices it and then acts in accordance. So for instance, Tom has a different threshold than I do on his work, how much he works. He works like 120 hours a week. We literally count over the last eight months. It's insane.

• 38:59Speaker 00

  I don't, I can't, I have health issues. So here I am, knowing I can't work that much. He does. And I'm an equal business partner. So for me, it was really hard to not feel guilty about switching off.

• 39:11Rich Roll?

  Or for him to feel resentful that you're not pulling your weight.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Yes, so we have to talk about that. So it's like, this is the life you want. I do not want to be working a hundred and twenty hours. So we sit down, we have these discussions. And then it's respecting each other's perspectives, coming up with a strategy that makes sense for both of us, for the business and for our personal. So then it becomes, how do you maintain that? Because it's one thing to say it, right? To sit down, have a discussion, it's like, okay, I hear you. And then to actually keep that going a month, two months, three months down the line. So for me, I get very tactical. I'm all about tactics, like I can get in my own head. So I came up with an idea. Have you ever been to a Brazilian restaurant?

• 39:52Speaker 00

  Where they do like the meat and you have like this little swivel thing?

• 39:55Rich Roll?

  Photo to shower, a place like that. In a past life, like I've been vegan for a long time. Yes, I have been to that place.

• 40:01Speaker 00

  Okay, so we go to this place and it's got this little thing that flips. So it's like you want meat, you don't want meat. And it's just an indicator. So as I'm sitting there trying to think about what's an indicator to let Tom know, when I've stopped working, because he would come to me. When I'm in my self-care time because of my health issues, I would want to decompress. And then he would walk in the room and tell me this business problem. And so I was like, this isn't gonna work. We started arguing, I started, you know, getting upset, like you need to respect my boundaries. And he's like, but I don't know because I'm still in work mode. So I was like, what can I do? And I was like, oh, just like those Brazilian restaurants. I was like, I need an indicator to show you, babe, when I'm working and when I'm not. So I came up with a goal where when I would be in my bedroom, I had the lamp. And so I was like, when the lamp is on, babe, it means that I'm in personal time.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  If the lamp isn't on, then it means you can still talk to me about work. So the very next day, he walks in the room. He's like, hey babe, he sees the light on, he's like, good to see you. And he walks back out of the room. Things like that. It helps you both navigate situations, respect each other's boundaries. Because if you believe your partner wants something great for you, then you have to help them understand the boundaries and then help them, when you set them, help them guide them into how they can respect them.

• 41:13Rich Roll?

  Right, clearly defined, precise boundaries that are set prophylactically before the crisis.

• 41:20Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 41:21Rich Roll?

  And I think what happens with a lot of people is there's an expectation of mind-reading that happens. And then like an aggravation when the mind isn't properly read. But I think the real jujitsu move here is the ability to have those conversations in a non-reactive mode. Like, it seems like you're both really good at that. Because everybody has their buttons installed by their histories and their upbringings and stuff like that. And you can say, like, we need to be able to talk about these things, but, you know, one phrase that comes out wrong and the other person's set off, and then before you know it, you're off to the races, down the rabbit hole of some kind of fight. So, clear communication, dispassionate communication, and the ability to pause when agitated,

• 42:05Rich Roll?

  because I'm sure you or him say something that is provocative to the ears of the other person. The ability to sit with that and cogitate on it for a moment before responding. And it seems like you're both really good at that. Like, that's a skill, and I'm interested in whether that's an outgrowth of the work that you've done on the growth mindset stuff, or whether that's something that you learned in a therapeutic context. Because I think mastering that is really the key, so that the other person can be heard, you can take that in, you can see it from their perspective, you're not just spontaneously reacting, looping some old behavior pattern, you know, that's gonna lead you down a dark alley.

• 42:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, look, it's been falling on the floor, messing up, having massive arguments the last days and days and days, and then coming to these conclusions where we come up with a solution. So, it was never, even now, it's usually messy at first. It's usually a problem arises, we start to have some friction, I sit back and I'm like, why do we keep having friction? And then it becomes an assessment. So, the process is now quite easy for me, in the sense of, oh, the red flag, okay, I noticed this red flag, there's some friction here, what does this friction mean? Why does it keep happening? What is the behavior that both of us keep showing up like this? And then, with no judgment, sitting together, being able to be honest with each other, because we know that we've got the same goal in mind, to have a happy, long-lasting relationship,

• 43:31Speaker 00

  so we need to be honest with each other. And then hearing each other out, and then finding a solution. And the solution part sometimes is 10 different ideas. The lamp idea was like, one of many, where we just kept arguing. I was like, please, you need to respect my boundaries, you know? And so, eventually, it was like, oh, okay, here's a simple solution. And so, we kind of... Um rinse and repeat. It becomes like notice the problem, come up with a solution. Um and everything is with no judgment. Like that's super important to know that. Anytime that we argue or there's any friction, the very first thing I ask myself is, does he love you? Like that's literally the first question I ask, because if he loves you and he wants good things for you, then what is happening right now is not deliberate.

• 44:11Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 44:11Speaker 00

  And so if you know it's not deliberate, then to me it allows me to go into that conversation emotionally sober. Meaning that I don't, I'm not upset, I'm not frustrated, I'm not taking it personally. Um and then when you can enter conversations where you're emotionally sober, I think that that's where the best communication comes. Um and then the last part is making sure you just define words. So that every time you come together, you're using the words that the person can hear. Not the words that you think you mean and the other person doesn't hear them.

• 44:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's a really important one. And that's a conversation that I have with my wife all the time. She'll say something. And I'll get upset and then I'll have to say, I know what you meant was this, what I heard was this because of how I interpret that. Um but you know, sometimes it has to go sideways a little bit before you can right the ship and you know. I think there's this idea that if you're in a healthy marriage, you know, that's fruitful. That you're never gonna fight. And I just think that that's ridiculous. Like I, you know, my wife and I fight, we don't fight all the time, but we fight. And our rule is like, we just stay in it until we get to the other side. Like no one storms out of the room.

• 45:18Rich Roll?

  No one gets the right to end it in the middle of something until we've, you know, sat in the discomfort and figured our way out of it to the, to, you know, to some kind of conclusion that we're both content with.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  And I love that because you guys have had that discussion and that agreement meantime and the opposite. And that's really because of me, not because of him. He's like you. He's like, nope, we're not leaving. We've got to solve this. We've got to do. And he always spent hours and hours and hours and I'm just exhausted and emotionally drunk. Like I'm just like, my emotions are all over the place and I can't finish straight.

• 45:47Rich Roll?

  Take a break, regroup, come back.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 45:50Rich Roll?

  But you have to come back. You can't just let it linger.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. So that's all about having those discussions. So first of all, he thought it was disrespectful initially, where he's like, I can't believe you just walked off. And so it was about having the discussion of why I needed to walk away. I'm like, babe. I can get it very heated and I know I can let my emotions take over. And so we both know that doesn't serve this situation, right? If we can agree, me being hot headed and saying something that I'm gonna regret doesn't serve us. Okay, if we can agree on that, how about you just let me walk away? But trust me, it is to calm down, it is to emotionally regulate so that I can come back and actually have the discussion that you wanna have. Because you don't necessarily wanna have an emotional discussion. You wanna have a very logical discussion. I get emotional, I can't have a logical discussion, I'm emotional.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  So instead of beating myself up or judging myself, we came up with, okay, maybe. So now he's like babe, and I'm like babe, I have to walk away. And he's like, okay, baby. And so I walk away. But then what you do when you walk away is also imperative to know, right? You don't just wanna go and stew even more or call your friend, who is like, yeah, I can't believe he said that to you. And she just like, or he just winds you up even more. So that's like the other part of like, what do you do when you actually walk away? For me, it's reminding myself how he feels about me. So you know your husband loves you. Okay, so that's number one. Do you think he deliberately tried to hurt you? Number two. And I just kind of like ask myself these questions to orient me back to the intention.

• 47:14Rich Roll?

  You're also a much more heart centered person than I think Tom is. And I don't, I say that with great affection for Tom. But you know, what's funny in the conversations that I've had with him is sort of a weird kind of curiosity that he has about spirituality. Because it's sort of confusing to him, I think, you know? And he's somebody who really lives in his head and, and has been very successful problem solving in his head. And I think is curious about what it would mean to, you know, move down towards the heart a little bit, but can't quite make that connection or is, you know, kind of struggling to do that. And you seem to be more comfortable in that place. I mean, a big part of the book is about intuition and stuff like that. And so is that a source of? Disagreement with you guys?

• 47:58Rich Roll?

  Like you just mentioned a fight where he's trying to solve it intellectually.

• 48:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:01Rich Roll?

  And sometimes you can't do it that way.

• 48:03Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:04Rich Roll?

  And when you're coming from a very different place in terms of how to problem solve, sometimes that can cause problems. But also, I think those polarities make for a very interesting and compelling marriage. I mean, you know, my wife is much more heart-centered and spiritual than I am and thinks I'm overly intellectualizing everything, whereas like a lot of dudes think I'm too much on the spiritual side.

• 48:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:26Rich Roll?

  So, anyway.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  It's very true. And here's the thing, again, it's like, that's the man that I married. I love him for it. And I know how big his heart is. I mean, you know, he has like a lot of emotional moments. He just, when we're in these moments of discussion or arguments, he doesn't have the emotion. And so that has been a hurdle that we've had to, you know, overcome in that neither of us are right or wrong, right? It's just how do we communicate though, in those moments where I am absolutely talking from the heart and he's very intellectual and I perceive his intellectual, if that's even a word, I perceive that to be heartless. And I used to. And so what I realized was, oh, that was just how he processes things. And when I come to him emotional, he goes into fix-it mode.

• 49:13Speaker 00

  And like I've heard a lot of my friends, couples do, right? Where the female usually wants to be heard and the guy normally wants to fix it.

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  That's the paradigm.

• 49:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so what we said is like, okay, the truth is neither of us are right or wrong. So instead of judging each other, be like, I can't believe you don't wanna, you know, hear me out. And it's just like, why, it's not, I'm right. It's just not what I need right now. And so how as a couple, do you maneuver through that? And so for us, it was agreeing to the process of if I come to him emotional, that he has the responsibility to stop me and say, baby, do you need me to listen or do you need me to fix it? And because I'm too emotional, I can't even think about asking him, myself, that question. So he is the responsible party to stop me, ask that. It actually pauses me and I go, hmm, let me think. I need you to just listen. And so his entire demeanor changes.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  He sits down, he softens, he puts his hand on me because I've told him what I need. In those moments, I need you to touch my knee. Again, we said earlier, right, they're not mind readers. So what do you need in those moments so your partner can be there for you? You have to articulate them. And so my husband used to want to like give me a big hug and like stroke my back. And I'm like, it's too much. I just need you to pick your hand on my knee. And so now that's exactly what he does. And so I'm feeling the love that he's trying to give. And he's able to show up for me and then vice versa. When he's feeling, um, when he's frustrated, he doesn't want me to like, or if he feels like he's on his knees, like he's really been crushed by something. He doesn't want me to get down on my knees with him. He wants me to metaphorically reach out my hand and pull him back up.

• 50:45Speaker 00

  And so knowing that he doesn't want that, when he's forced to his knees, I know how to act and I know what to say to him. That is what he needs in that moment, so it allows me to show up for him.

• 50:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's great advice. I mean, it all tracks back to having a level of communication where all of that is made clear in a safe place so that there is an understanding.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. So even when it comes to triggers, I'm very open with my triggers. And so I'll say to him, babe, you've just triggered me. But now here's the thing, I think just because he's triggered me, it's not on him to solve the trigger, it's on me. And so this has been a recent thing that we've been doing actually over the last like year, year and a half. I've been more comfortable admitting my triggers. I've been more comfortable talking to him about them. And then in those moments, I've said to him, I recognize this is me and I'm working through it. Like I'm actually less triggered now than I used to be, but I'm not there yet. And so while I'm still working on my triggers, do you mind just helping not use that word? This is a me thing, but you're really helping me. And now it becomes almost setting boundaries with respect and helping each other get over the problems that they're having.

• 51:49Speaker 00

  And so even though that word for him, he's like, he may throw it out left, right and center and not realize. I will just articulate him, please don't use that word. And if he does, I'll just say, look babe, I know you didn't mean to, but you just used that word. It really is triggering me right now. If you don't mind just holding off. And he's like, okay, well, it's habit. And I said, I totally get it, maybe try and use this word instead. And if he still gets it wrong, I still encourage him. That's the thing. It's like, babe, I really do see you trying. You know, I go to see him say the word and then like stop himself. And so you want to encourage your partner. And so that's kind of the nuances of how we communicate. Again, having certain words like the word important. I use that word maybe three times a year. So if I said to Tom right now, if I got on my phone, I was like, hey babe, it's important

• 52:32Speaker 00

  that you literally get in the car right now and you drive to Rich Rolls. He wouldn't ask why. He would leave the meeting, drop everything and jump in the car and get here.

• 52:40Rich Roll?

  And part of that is because you don't cry wolf with it.

• 52:43Speaker 00

  Exactly. Hundred percent. That is so imperative. You don't cry wolf with it. And you really wanna show up for your partner, you hope that your partner wants to show up for you. So having those levels of communication, especially when you work together. Because having communication on when you're talking to them as a business partner versus a spouse is actually very different.

• 53:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 00

  So even with me calling him, like right now, if I called him and he was in a meeting, he won't answer my first call. If I called him again and he was in a meeting, he won't answer my second call. Cause he's like, it's a business thing, she, I'm busy. If I call him a third time, he answers. Now, the reason why is the third time means I'm calling you as my wife and I need you.

• 53:25Rich Roll?

  And that's understood.

• 53:26Speaker 00

  And that is completely understood. Now, the funny thing is, this is one of those stories or moments where I called him, I was, do you mind actually if I share an intimate story? So I've had a lot of gut issues. And it was early days and I was hiding it from everybody. Tom obviously knew. And I was in the middle of a photo shoot and my gut issues would literally get me to the point where I couldn't breathe, I can't stand up. And it happened in the middle of a photo shoot. So I ran upstairs in my house, fell to my knees on the floor, clutching my stomach. And I was like, I need my husband, I need my husband. And so I call him once, I know he's not gonna answer. I call him twice, I know he's not gonna answer. I call him a third time and he doesn't answer. And I'm like, we've had this agreement, I can't believe he doesn't answer.

• 54:08Speaker 00

  So I'm on my knees saying, oh my God, I need my husband, I need my husband. And in that moment, I was like, well, I can't stay on the floor. And then I realized, oh my God, I don't need him. I want him, but I don't need him. And in that moment, I was like, Lisa, you're your own hero. Get the F up and be the hero of your own life. Now, I did get up and that was the moment that I realized I would turn to my husband because I felt like I was weak without him. And that was the moment that I realized I'm actually really strong and I can stand next to him. Now, in that story, at the end, Tom came running to me because he saw his, the three missed calls. And he was so horrified. He, because his identity is of the husband that shows up. And even to this day, Rich, I wrote that story in my book.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  And when he read it, he burst into tears. And he said, I can't believe I wasn't there for you. That's how much our agreements mean to us. And I, and obviously we've had to work through it, but I'm like, babe, that was one of the most beautiful moments. I'm glad you didn't answer the phone because it taught me what I was made of. And I choose you, I don't need you, and that's actually even more beautiful. And but even today, it still stings him.

• 55:14Rich Roll?

  Well, I think you have to be allowed to fall in order to find your strength, right? Like, if there's always a net to pick you up, then you're always on some level dependent on something external.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly.

• 55:27Rich Roll?

  You never really developed the facility to grow into your own power.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:31Rich Roll?

  So it was, it was meant to be, right?

• 55:33Speaker 00

  It was, yeah, but he still has that emotional, you know, thing, because he's like, we've agreed on this. We, you know, Pinky swore, we said we would always do this. And I was like, but baby, you know, it allowed me to see what I was made of. And, you know, that's so important to me, to who I am today. That, that story is stuck with me so much that I don't want him to take it away from me. But we've had to talk through it because I still know that it stings him.

• 55:58Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Do you find, well, let me say this. I have found that when I'm under duress or my wife and I are under duress financially, professionally, or there's a lot going on, or things aren't going great. That is sort of a reminder to me to double down on a lot of tools that, you know, we've developed to foster our relationship and grow closer. And, you know, we survived like a pretty gnarly period of time of financial dismantling that I think would have exploded most relationships. But in, in fact, it brought us closer. But My weakness is that when everything's good,

• 56:42Rich Roll?

  I'll take the foot off the gas, right? So, success can create a laziness or a level of entitlement. And that's kind of what's up for us right now. It's like, everything's going really good. And I've got this thing, my wife has another thing. And without a lot of conscious intentionality, we can be ships in the night. And I need to be reminded, like, that's a recipe for disaster. Like, we need to make sure that, you know, and in our relationship, my wife is also the one who's like, "Hey, listen, we need to get together. You know, like, this can't go on like this forever, or we're gonna have a problem." We don't have a problem right now, but if we wanna not have a problem,

• 57:25Rich Roll?

  we need to prophylactically, like, deal with this now. And I rely on her for that messaging, because I will be the guy who's just, "Everything's good."

• 57:34Speaker 00

  Right.

• 57:34Rich Roll?

  We don't have to, what's, you know? And I'll do that in sobriety as well. So, my question, I guess, is, now that you guys are, like, really successful, does it become more difficult to work on these things? Because externally, everything looks great? Or, because it doesn't strike me like that. It feels like you're still very intentional about staying on top of all of this stuff, regardless of what's going on, you know, externally?

• 58:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I really am. And I wrote about this in my book, where the phrase, "This too shall pass." I used to use that as a way to get me out of the dark days, when I wasn't feeling great, when something wasn't going great. "Okay, Lisa, don't worry, you're not gonna stay here forever. This too shall pass." And then I actually realized the most beautiful thing. It also applies to the amazing days. Like, we kind of think that when something's great, that's our baseline. So, we're like, "Oh, we're all good." And I actually love the beauty in thinking, "Well, this too shall pass." So, let, and it's not to, like, bring fear into your life. It's to actually go, "Let me just enjoy it. Let me pay attention. Let me make sure that I'm actually soaking this in, because this isn't going to be the way all the time." And so, I kind of love the ebb and flow, because on the bad days, it allows you to remember that it won't always stay like that,

• 58:47Speaker 00

  and it can be beautiful. And then on the beautiful days, reminding yourself that, you know what? You may actually be in rocky waters in your relationship in a month or two. So, actually embrace right now. Take it in, soak it in, enjoy it, and then, you know, move on. But that's very, it is intentional. And I think, to me, it is all about... Making sure you're always speaking each other's language, no matter how busy, no matter how good things are or how bad things are. Always speaking that language, so knowing your love language. For me with Tom, it is acts of service. And because he is so busy, and that's changed over time. He never used to be that. But now, over the last eight months, he's been working one hundred and twenty hours a week. Um, I need it. And then so I just lean into it. It's like, hey, I really need you to, you know,

• 59:31Speaker 00

  show me with your time. And so, because he could do, you know, send me a lovely text, but it's not the language that I I need right now. And so being open with each other in so many moments is going to be important. And then always showing up. So even on the great days, he boils my kettle for me so that when I wake up in the morning, it's I can have a cup of tea or coffee. Um, he does that when it's really bad and things aren't going great in our relationship or in our business, and he does it on the amazing day. So making sure that you're always kind of thinking of each other no matter what and doing these little things. But these little things you have to discuss, because if you don't know what they are, you're not able to do them.

• 1:00:14Rich Roll?

  So back to Quest, you're in the shipping department.

• 1:00:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Rich Roll?

  You tell the story of like the bars spilling all over the place and having to solve all of these little problems and figuring out as the company grew and grew very quickly, like how to master at least this one kind of aspect of the the overall business. And then having to pivot into the media and kind of marketing side of things and the intimidation, the lack of confidence, the sort of, all right, getting thrown in and and, you know, sink or swim sort of situation, which brings up the broader conversation and theme of the book and title of the book, like radical confidence. Like what is, like, what does that mean? What is the difference between confidence and radical confidence? How does this fit in with growth mindset? Like, help me decode this language a little bit.

• 1:01:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. So confidence to me was like how you feel about yourself. So people want to feel great before they start anything. I was the same. I was, oh, I'm gonna start my YouTube channel once I have the confidence. And so what ends up happening? Is people don't actually take action because they're waiting for the confidence to come. And I joke about it in the book, but it's like, you know, like if you wanted glutes to still, you wouldn't go to the gym, do a couple of reps and think that you're all done, right? It's kind of like with confidence. It's like you have to keep practicing. It takes reps. Exactly. And so the very first part that I say is, okay, identify what you want confidence in. To do what with the confidence? Because we're all focused on feeling good, but actually, what do you want to achieve?

• 1:01:46Speaker 00

  Usually people will say, I want confidence to um tell my boss that I want to pay rise. I want the confidence to tell my partner in my relationship, I'm not happy. I want the confidence to tell my parents, I no longer want to study biochemistry and I want to be a stand-up comedian. So it's usually something to to do something with. And I'm like, great, now you know the end goal. Now you've identified the end goal. Now you need to come up with a set of tools, stepping stones, to get to that goal. Because the confidence part will come over time. It will come with action, it will come with repetition, it will come with gaining competence. The confidence is the by-product. And so if we can stop focusing on the confidence and have radical confidence, which to me means

• 1:02:29Speaker 00

  you have insecurities, you have doubts in yourself, you actually probably are not equipped for what you're about to do. But you still show up and do it anyway. Now, I don't mean blindly believing in yourself. I don't mean blindly saying, ah, forget the fear and do it anyway. No, no, no. When you've got the fear, you need to, me, I needed stepping stones that were binary. Okay, I wake up today. Did I do this? Yes or no? So some people, for instance, let's take the gym, working out, fitness. I know my mum didn't have the confidence to even walk in the gym. Okay, she wanted to lose weight, she wanted to be healthy, but she didn't have the confidence. She didn't believe in herself, she didn't think she was worthy enough. So now you have someone that in her seventies still says losing weight wasn't possible.

• 1:03:14Speaker 00

  Because she was waiting for the confidence to then feel good about herself to go in the gym. And it became this like, you know, vicious cycle.

• 1:03:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 00

  So instead of just saying, okay, we'll just go to the gym, fill the fear and do it anyway. Come up with the steps, stepping process. So you want confidence to feel good about yourself to go to the gym. Okay, the end goal is the gym. Now, what do you do? Make it binary. Tomorrow, I put my shoes by my bed. That's it. Did you do it? Yes or no? And now you create this plan, this action plan around the thing that you're trying to do. So that every day, you don't allow your negative mindset, the voice in your head that's saying, you're not worthy, you're not good enough. You don't let it take over. You don't want it to go into autopilot. And that's what I was doing for eight years. My entire life was autopilot because every time I wanted to do something, that mindset was coming in saying, well, you don't have the confidence, you're not good enough. Who do you think you are?

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  And at Quest, because I, we were growing so quickly, we grew at fifty seven thousand percent. And so I didn't have the luxury to A, slow down. I didn't have the luxury because our house was on the line. I didn't have the luxury to just stop and say, I don't know how. And I don't have the confidence to do that. So when I found myself walking into a boardroom, where let's say there's ten guys with business, way more business experience than me. The insecurity comes flooding, right? That I don't have the confidence to walk into the room. The imposter syndrome comes run, you know, um, front and center. Now, the question is, how on earth do you still walk in the room? What do you do? How do you know that actually, you know what? I don't have as much experience than everyone in the room. It's not even like, I'm just like putting myself down. I actually don't have the experience that everyone else does in this room.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  So how on earth do I keep showing up if I don't have the confidence? That's what radical confidence is.

• 1:04:55Rich Roll?

  And so what are those tools? Like, I'm imagining walking into that boardroom, feeling insecure. You have a couple of choices. You can act as if and put on a front and pretend that you're on their level, which is very transparent.

• 1:05:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Rich Roll?

  Or there's the opportunity to acknowledge to yourself, like, hey, I'm like.

• 1:05:16Rich Roll?

  Maybe not at this level yet. I still have to walk into this room. Like, how do I manage that? And you can come in and say, listen, this is who I am. I'm not like, I don't have your experience, but I'm here. That requires a level of self-esteem as well to be able to say that, to admit that weakness. And part of your, you know, your kind of process here is about like acknowledging your own weaknesses rather than repressing them or pretending they don't exist. It's like bring them to the surface, be in relationship with them. So you understand what they are, which gives you an opportunity to then work on them and kind of get to the other side.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And to your point, there's no way I would have had the guts to tell people, I'm not at your level yet. Like, you know, the instinct is to just pretend, like go in, pretend that you know what you're doing. It's like, but that's just too crippling sometimes. And so I actually took this from my husband. Have the identity of the learner. So now, if you've got the identity of the learner, instead of being the identity of, I know what I'm doing, I've got this, I'm the head of shipping, you know, I'm Tom's wife, I'm the co-founder. That didn't help. Just because I was the co-founder of a company didn't mean that I actually knew what I was doing or was confident to walk into a boardroom. So if you adopt the identity of the learner, now when you walk into a boardroom, how do you think I feel? I'm like, oh, I'm gonna learn in this room. When I go into a situation where someone's saying something that I don't know, I was like, oh, please explain

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  because I don't understand that. But now as a learner, I thrive off learning. Now, if I fall to my knees and I make a mistake, or a catastrophic mistake, as the learner, I don't take that as a dent to my ego. I just say, oh, my God, great. Now I can learn from this failure.

• 1:06:53Rich Roll?

  That's the core of the growth mindset, which is to approach every situation and outcome as a positive. Because if you succeed, then you can learn from how you got to that place. If you fail, you can deconstruct what went wrong, and it's all good either way.

• 1:07:08Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:07:09Rich Roll?

  Which takes all of that kind of pressure out of the whole thing.

• 1:07:11Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  But it requires you to really strip your ego away out of the whole thing as well.

• 1:07:16Speaker 00

  Yes, and that's

• 1:07:18Rich Roll?

  That's tricky.

• 1:07:19Speaker 00

  That is super tricky because my ego used to steer everything. And so there was actually one day where Tom had heard that I was getting people reaching out, asking me to do speaking gigs. And I just kept saying no. I was like, I'm so petrified. I was like, why would I ever do that? That looks like so heart attack inducing. Like, I've seen Tom do it. I've seen incredible, like just amazing speakers. And I was just like, that's not me. I'm terrible. And so I kept saying no. So one day, Tom, being, you know, very honest with me, comes to me, he's like, so babe, Just wanna point out that right now, you say your goal is impact. But you actually don't, right now, you're not acting in accordance because you keep saying no to these speaking gigs. No pressure, have the life you want. But as your husband, as your committed partner, we are, we trust each other to be honest with each other. So he just said, right now, your actions are not aligning with your goals.

• 1:08:03Speaker 00

  So I actually had to sit back and I was like, okay. My goal is impact. I do understand that getting on stage is gonna impact people. Okay, yes. Why on earth am I saying no? It's the ego. The ego doesn't wanna be embarrassed. Right, the voice in my head is saying, Lisa, people are gonna laugh at you. Lisa, you're not as good as Tom. Like, that is, but they're to protect me, right? It's like, don't do it, don't do it, for the love of God, don't do it. And so in that moment, I was like, oh. All I have to do now with no judgment is decide what's more important to me, my ego or my goals? And if I can just decide, it starts with a decision, I'm not saying it's easy, it just starts with a decision. If I decided, which I did, I was like, my goals are more important. I was like, great, now at least I've made the decision. How on earth do I public speak? Because again, it's one thing saying you're gonna do it and another thing to actually do it.

• 1:08:47Speaker 00

  So I sat back and I came up with a plan. And the plan was, um, the strategy was, listen to your negative voice. Because the negative voice used to hold me back. But I was like, what if, just like your husband, he's trying to warn you something, he's trying to give you a signal? So I sat back and I said, what is it trying to warn me? Okay, just listen to it. It's saying like, oh my God, you're so fearful, you can't even say yes. So I was like, okay, I can't even say yes to a speaking gig. How do I overcome that? Oh, hang on, they actually reach out to my team first and it's my team that tell me. So I'm just gonna tell my team, next time, just say yes. Don't check with me. Okay, great. Now I've overcome that fear. What's the next thing that you're, the voice in your head is saying? You're not as good as Tom. You're gonna get on stage, Lisa, you're gonna bomb. All right, so maybe she's right. This critic in my head. Maybe she's right. Maybe she can coach me.

• 1:09:33Speaker 00

  So I was like, all right, turn the critic into a coach, I can do that. What is she saying? Get prepared. That's what she's saying. So I'm like, oh, she wants me to prepare. Okay, great. So now I just lay out, how am I gonna prepare? What does that look like? Because the voice in my head is very scared. So number one, I'm going to have someone coach me on how to do a speaking gig because I've never done it before. Who do I know? My husband. Great, let me book time with him. Number two, how am I gonna read it out loud? Okay, I'm gonna read it to him. That's one person. Then I'm gonna read it to my team. That's twenty people. And I literally sat there and wrote a game plan so that every time I woke up the next day, I was like, what do I do today? It wasn't how do I feel? It was what do I do? And so that was how I started to process the fear, not listening to it,

• 1:10:17Speaker 00

  telling my ego to calm the hell down and then still show up.

• 1:10:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a function of preparation, but self-esteem being the driver of confidence and self-esteem being driven by performing esteemable acts on behalf of others and yourself. The path really is setting up these stepping stones along the way, such that when you get to that stage, or you're gonna drop in on that wave, or you're gonna, whatever it is, walk into the gym, you've already done enough legwork on lower, in lower stakes environments, that that next step to the thing that once scared you doesn't feel as intimidating as it once was. So practicing your speech in the mirror, sharing it with a friend, being open to feedback,

• 1:11:04Rich Roll?

  doing it in front of two people and then three people and then memorizing it and then doing it to a camera and then having the gall to watch yourself on. You know, like, all of those things are very low stakes, but are so important in terms of the ramp up. So that way, it's not like, oh, I'm going from nothing to walking on this TEDx stage, right? Like, there's a whole battery of interim stages that prepare you.

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And then even just, you said the walking on the stage. That was so petrifying to me because even with all the preparation, I was like, how do you actually walk on stage? Like, when you're as scared as I was, I was like, I may be prepared, but I worried as soon as I got to the steps and I saw the audience, I would freeze. So again, I allowed my, the voice in my head to talk and say, Lisa, you don't wanna freeze. Like, oh, my god, people will laugh at you. And I was like, okay, what tools do I have to my ability that I can use to help me get on stage? Because to me, my goal wasn't to be amazing on stage. It was like, just actually do it. You said that you were going to, and do it. That becomes the self-esteem part, right? It's like, I was holding my self-esteem to, am I the person that shows up?

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  And so even if I bomb, at least I did, and that's why I kept telling myself. But how on earth do I just show up on stage? And so I just literally sat there and I was like, okay, what are the tools that I can use to help encourage me? And I thought about the kids who, do you have kids?

• 1:12:29Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:30Speaker 00

  Did you ever give them a cape?

• 1:12:33Speaker 00

  When they were kids, young?

• 1:12:34Rich Roll?

  No, capes weren't my kids' thing.

• 1:12:37Speaker 00

  Okay. Have you ever given a cape to a kid and seen what they do?

• 1:12:40Rich Roll?

  Sure, I have seen that, of course.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Okay, they put their fist in the air, right? And they like act like Superman or like I love Wonder Woman. And I was like, the power of clothes, the power of something like that to a kid, takes them from being the kid to then actually then believing they're a superhero. So why don't we do that as adults? It's such a great like mind hack. And so I was like, what could that be for me? And so I love Wonder Woman. And so it's like, oh, what if I got a Wonder Woman necklace? So you see it here.

• 1:13:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:09Speaker 00

  And so what I started to do is like, okay, I've got my little item that is like the self signaling part. But I also know that you need to create a habit. So every time I put it on, I was like, well, how do I reinforce that I feel like Wonder Woman when I put it on? So I came up with a strategy that for about a month, because they say thirty days is what you have to do to create a habit. So I kept putting it on every day for thirty days. And every day I put it on, I was like, you're badass like Wonder Woman. You're a badass like Wonder Woman. And so what I was doing was repeating that enough that I was creating a habit. So that before I got on stage, I put on my Wonder Woman necklace. I have my hair braided. I have on these big watch and cuffs and stuff.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  That watch is gigantic, by the way.

• 1:13:51Rich Roll?

  How much does that weigh on your wrist?

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  People are just like, that watch is wearing you.

• 1:13:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:56Speaker 00

  But all of these things are very deliberate. I don't do this by accident because I can get in my own head. And so I literally think of ways that I can overcome the way that I naturally am. I don't beat myself up for having the negative thoughts. I don't beat myself up fearing going on stage. I just don't allow that to stop me.

• 1:14:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it reminds me of this idea of of the alter ego like David Goggins becomes Goggins or James Lawrence becomes the Iron Cowboy. And it's a way of putting on that that sort of superhero costume in whatever way, shape or form serves you. It's also the idea that this guy Todd Herman, who's been on my podcast before, wrote a whole book about this. The alter ego effect, you probably.

• 1:14:40Speaker 00

  I haven't actually read it, but I know of.

• 1:14:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's like right up the alley of exactly what you're talking about, which is creating a little bit of distance between your fear and what you're trying to achieve by armoring yourself in something that allows you to kind of transcend those insecurities and step into something greater.

• 1:14:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love that. And also, I actually feel a chemical change. Like, I start to feel more powerful as I like kind of suit up, as I do my hair, as I put my jewelry on. And so that power of like having these symbols, I also find the beauty in the reverse. So some days I'm, you know, going really hard for the business. It's a grind. It's you're facing problems all day, every day, and you're having people, you know, and just feel overwhelmed. In those moments, I feel very hard, like I can feel myself toughen and I've got gut issues. And so I recognize having massive like anxiety or like stressful days isn't good for my health. And so what tools am I going to use in moments of that? And so usually it's like I'll get a hug from my husband. He normally does it.

• 1:15:42Speaker 00

  The problem is sometimes when you're that, you know, elevated in like emotion or you're angry or you're just like really hard that day, hug isn't something that you need. And so I was like, oh, what if I do the opposite? What if I undo myself? So what if I undo my braids, my jewelry? Put on something that makes me feel soft. So I have these, surprise, surprise, Wonder Woman fluffy pajamas. And I unwind when I'm trying to change the chemicals in my body. I know what I can reach for. So I take off the jewelry. I take down the hair. And then I put on something soft that makes me feel soft so I can then embody the softness. And then I can go get the hug from my husband and then usually eat my dinner. But I won't eat my dinner if I've, if I'm tired and, you know, hard.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  So I need those strategies in order to help me pivot and take care of myself.

• 1:16:31Rich Roll?

  And the gut issues are like some form of dysbiosis? Like, what is the diagnosis there?

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  Ooh, it's a lot. Yeah, it was so ten years as Quest was growing, my identity was tied to being the person that always showed up. So I was so fearful of slipping backwards into being a supportive wife, stay at home, and because I loved what I was doing at Quest, I was just on the grind every day. And I thought back then, especially back then, I think it was definitely like, how many hours do you work? Or how many hours do you work? It was like the pride was in the amount of hard work you do. And so at the time, I thought of myself as the more hours I put in, the more validation I would get, the more pats on the back I would get from other people because I didn't feel good about myself. So I was thriving off the validation I was getting from other people. So for ten years, I did, I stopped all of my drawer as like my hobby with art.

• 1:17:22Speaker 00

  I stopped all of that. I stopped all of my self-care. I was very negative on myself, very hard on myself. And I thought sleep was the last thing people needed. I also had a very unhealthy relationship growing up with food. I saw my mom borderline anorexic and then turned into clinically obese. And so I had a very unhealthy relationship with food. So you put all that together, I started getting sick a lot. I didn't realize seventy percent of your immune system is carried in your gut. So I was not replenishing my gut with any fats or carbs because I thought those were bad. Doctors were giving me antibiotics. And it got to the point where I was taking antibiotics probably four to five times a year.

• 1:17:59Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:17:59Speaker 00

  And you do that for-

• 1:18:00Rich Roll?

  Of course, this is making it worse and worse. And you're just basically annihilating your whole microbiome every time you do that.

• 1:18:06Speaker 00

  Everything. And I was doing that probably, you know, started off with an unhealthy relationship with food for like, let's say, a period of fifteen years. And it became so cliche and it ended up being the best thing that ever happened to me. But as we're building Quest, Tom and I used to take drives around Beverly Hills in our really crappy car. And it was like the moments where we would dream, when things were getting very hard, we would dream about, you know, when Quest got successful, what we were doing. It would really help us get over the hard days. Flash forward, Quest becomes a billion dollar company. We, you know, we actually get to buy the house in Beverly Hills. It's like the dream freaking come true. And I'd always dreamt, I'm a nineties girl, I love hip hop. So I'd always said to Tom, I really wanted a waterfall in our house so I could twerk to it with a bottle of champagne

• 1:18:50Speaker 00

  and do a nineties hip hop video for him. And so that was like the fun dream that we always had. Cut to we actually get the house, we actually get the waterfall and I have a bottle of Dom Perignon in my hand. As cliche as it sounds, in that moment, I took a swig of champagne. Like that, my gut felt like it erupted. That was six years ago. I'm still suffering. So just to give context, the day, the actual day. And why I say that's the most beautiful thing is it just taught me success is nothing if you don't have your health. And thankfully, I actually learnt that very early on in my success. So, um, and so that was very much a learning lesson for me of how to take care of myself. Um, and then how to make sure that that is the most important thing that I focus on.

• 1:19:34Speaker 00

  Because throughout Quest, um, I wasn't focusing on the self-care part of it. And so it was definitely a mix. And then in hindsight, it was the fact that I had leaky gut. I had SIBO. So SIBO, I was so catastrophic to me, so intense. I couldn't stand up for longer than five minutes at a time. My gut had actually protruded out, as you could see, like it was almost like the reverse pregnancy. And, um, that was for at least a year. I could only eat about four ingredients. I couldn't even put pepper on my food. That's how bad I got. I was about twenty pounds lighter than you see me now. Um, hair had fallen out, nails were brittle. It was really bad. It was really hard.

• 1:20:15Speaker 00

  And, um, so in all of that, it definitely put everything into perspective very early on in my life.

• 1:20:23Rich Roll?

  And how did you see yourself to the other side? Like you're doing okay now, yeah? Like you don't have any flare ups?

• 1:20:29Speaker 00

  Um, I do every so often. So I realised if I work too much, I do. If I'm stressed too much, I do. If I'm not paying attention to my food, I still have to ask restaurants what oils they use because I can't have blended oils. Um, I still kind of do a loose SIBO diet because anytime I have things like onion and garlic, it just, it just does a little flare up. Um, and so it has been an incredible journey and an improvement. But in this story as well, the beauty in it is that for the first year, I kept blaming the doctors. It was the doctor's fault. They shouldn't have given me antibiotics and, you know, so because I was blaming the doctors, I was looking to them just to help me. And so I was like, oh, what pill should I take? What diet should I do? I literally was looking for them.

• 1:21:14Speaker 00

  And every time they made a suggestion, I would just blindly follow them. And what I realised over time, in that story that I told earlier about being falling to the floor. Realizing I am my own hero. Why do I wait for other people to save me? If I actually flipped that mentality and I actually said to myself, Lisa, you can save yourself. What would that look like? Just ask yourself the question, what would that look like? And with my gut and health, I started to realize I had given my power away. I was blaming the doctors. And in truth, Rich, I was the one that swallowed the antibiotics. I was the one that when the doctor said, you know, we probably shouldn't give you this many antibiotics. Not once did I ask why. Not once did I go home and Google the negative side of taking too many antibiotics.

• 1:21:59Speaker 00

  So if I could take ownership over that, the beautiful thing is now I've taken my power back and I can now fix myself.

• 1:22:06Rich Roll?

  Right, you have agency in that context, which brings up this idea or this conflict or tension between intuition, like my body is telling me that I should do this versus expert advice or appeal to authority. Like, I'm just going to give up my agency. These doctors know best. I'm going to follow them, which you did for a while. But at some point, there's a validation of the intuition that you have about what's right for yourself. And I think trying to find that balance between the two, like, we should listen to our doctors. They probably know more than what, you know, we know about like this thing that I'm suffering from. At the same time, we don't want to mute, you know, the body doesn't lie. It's giving us signals all the time.

• 1:22:49Rich Roll?

  How do you find that balance to know what's in your best interest?

• 1:22:53Speaker 00

  It's so true because that's a really good point. Thank you for saying that because I don't think that we should just not listen to experts. It's like, look, experts are experts for a reason.

• 1:23:01Rich Roll?

  Right, well, we're in a period of time right now where it's very, it's very fashionable to not listen to experts.

• 1:23:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is. I have the duality and most of the things that I do and say, it's like it's a bit of both. It's like listen to the expert, hear them out, and then assess whether that actually sits right with you. If it doesn't, why not? Like, ask yourselves the questions. I blindly follow doctors. So that's where I go, taking the expert's advice, listening to it, maybe even trying it out, saying, you know what, this doesn't feel right, but maybe I'll give it a shot. I'll give it a shot for two days and then just assess. But in that, because I was so blindly following it. Um, I realized that didn't work. And so what I did, I took full ownership. And I said, okay, if this is all my fault, quote unquote, if I am my own hero, if I can actually change this, what would it look like? And I just started saying, take inventory. So for instance, I was

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

  like, I was sleeping like 10 hours and I was waking up exhausted. And so the doctors are like, oh, you're probably fine, you know, with no real advice. So I'm like, okay, what would full ownership look like here? It would be assess your own sleep patterns. So I bought an Oura ring. I also bought one of those um continuous glucose monitors and I just took an assessment of what I ate that day, what time I ate, what my bowel movement was like, what my glucose levels were when I ate, what it was when I didn't eat, what it was like when I was sleeping, what I started to notice was, there was a correlation between when I was waking up in the middle of the night, my Oura ring, which I didn't realize I was waking up, I was just like losing REM, a lot of REM sleep. I could notice a correlation between that and my blood sugar levels dropping. And so

• 1:24:34Speaker 00

  in the middle of the night, I was dropping to like 40. And so I was like, oh, okay, well, that probably explains why I'm tired. What can I do differently? And I would just take inventory. And it's like, okay, Lisa, what you're gonna do is you're gonna maybe have some carbs later on in the evening. Does that make a difference? All right, Lisa, you're gonna actually, people say fasting, so blindly listening to everyone saying fasting, try it yourself. Do one hour before bed, then do two hours before bed, then do three hours, and actually see how you feel. And in that assessment, I was listening to my intuition, I was testing it out, I was still listening to experts, but then I was making the conclusions for myself. And then in that, I realized, oh, three hours for me was the magical time. You eat three hours before bed, it gives you time for

• 1:25:15Speaker 00

  your body to digest, you don't wake up with a stomach upset, but you also don't have crashes in the middle of the night. And that was all me figuring it out because I took the time, I took the ownership, and then I just um took the judgment away.

• 1:25:28Rich Roll?

  Hmm, that's interesting. So your fasted blood glucose would go down to 40 in the middle of the night, and the inference is that that was damaging your body's ability to get into the deep sleep state?

• 1:25:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's super interesting. You know, I've played around. I wear a whoop and I have continuous glucose monitor as well. And it is interesting, the relationship between sleep and your and your body's ability to metabolize glucose.

• 1:25:55Speaker 00

  Yes. Look, I didn't even realize. And also, like even the opposite. I was eating right before bed because I was like, wow, at least you've got gut issues. You can't not feed your gut. Like it was, you know, and then I was like, I was waking up with the worst stomach pains. And then it was like, why am I waking up with the worst stomach pains? And then I would realize my body didn't have time to digest its food. So it's just like sitting heavy in my gut. So while my husband can literally eat a donut before he goes to bed and he's fine, you know, like that would have a massive different impact on me. And so when you also hear about experts, it's like, well, where are they coming from? And whose studies are they doing? And even just being a female, that's like the new thing that I'm figuring out is that I did ketogenic. And keto worked wonders for me for a short period of time.

• 1:26:39Speaker 00

  But my husband can do keto diet for a year and he's great. And what I realized was that I was blindly listening to experts and studies without actually even looking myself to see what the studies done on women. Because it all makes a difference with us, you know, a female cycle and all of that sort of thing. So.

• 1:26:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I like the ownership that you took over the whole thing, though.

• 1:27:00Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:27:02Rich Roll?

  The other, the other thing we got to touch on is the people pleasing thing. This is something that I've battled with for a long time. I was living my life in a certain way for many years as a result of my, you know, basic inability to to honor myself in some regard, or to look inward enough to know how what it would look like if I was to honor myself. And you have your version of that story. You've transcended that pattern, but I think this is something that that affects a lot of people on a spectrum. And I think there's a lot of people who aren't even aware that they're sort of. relinquishing their their agency over their own life because they're in a situation

• 1:27:45Rich Roll?

  where that's just sort of expected in terms of like how you live your life, which is, you know, kind of the situation you were in earlier on.

• 1:27:53Speaker 00

  It's such a tricky conversation. You're right. Like in the sense of I actually really care about people. And so, yes, do I want to please people? Yes. Do I want to please my husband? Yes. And so it was very hard for me to think through and write out what that can look like because I don't think it's one or the other. I don't think it's like, whoa, you shouldn't people pleasing. Do you and don't care what other people is like, that didn't sit well with me, but I do care. So how do I be the person that still really cares, but doesn't allow that to dictate how I show up and why I do? Because that was the problem with me for those eight years where I was staying at home. It's like I wanted to please my husband. I wanted to be a good Greek wife, you know, that my dad was proud of. But it held me where I was because I started to I have my identity built

• 1:28:35Speaker 00

  around the people pleasing part of it. So now if I stop doing it, who was I? And so I think that that is can be really crippling for a lot of people and it makes you act and show up in ways that don't actually align with who you want to be. And so for me, it was like a fine line between, okay, I really do want to please my husband. I want him to be happy. But where does it go to them now become detrimental to who I want to be? And the transition where I went from being the supportive wife that was taking care of every need that he had into being an entrepreneur and an equal business partner, we had to talk about that because I was so trying to do both. Right? You want to be there for

• 1:29:17Speaker 00

  the person and you want to please them and you want to make them happy and you want to show up in your business. And I don't know about how you felt, but it was like I couldn't do both well at all.

• 1:29:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:27Speaker 00

  Or either well at all.

• 1:29:28Rich Roll?

  Well, first of all, you have to have some recognition that you're not living in alignment with the person you want to be.

• 1:29:37Rich Roll?

  So there's that piece and then there's the piece of figuring out how to communicate. Well, I think what, let me back up. I think when you're in that state, there's not a lot of self-reflection, right? Because you're like, you're pleasing other people and this is your, this is your MO, right? So you're not looking inward. So you're not really gauging that disconnect between the person you want to be and the, and the role that you're fulfilling until sort of the heat gets turned up and then you become unhappy and then you're confused, why am I unhappy? I'm doing all these other things. So there has to be some kind of like inflection point.

• 1:30:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:15Rich Roll?

  And then there's the piece around how do you communicate around that to kind of step out of the role that you're playing and find a better, healthier one.

• 1:30:24Speaker 00

  That is so true, a hundred percent because you're right. I didn't even realize that that's what I was doing. So sitting there, having the reflection of does this, who do I want to be? Who do I want to show up as every day that makes me feel good, that lives, gives me the life that I want? And then maybe it's even just taking account, like you just sit back with no judgment and take an account of your week. And it's like, oh, I woke up and I'm, you know, made my, my husband coffee and then I did the laundry for him. And then Ryan is like, how many of those were for you? And maybe that becomes the first part of it and just self-assessing where your time and energy is going because you may not realize that you're doing it because you're on autopilot. So actually I think that's a beautiful place to start and then recognizing how it can hold you back on what you're trying to do. And then I use the words, does it serve you, right?

• 1:31:09Speaker 00

  So if you've got your goal, if you've got that idea of who you want to be, and then you take the inventory of your day and then say, does this act serve this person that you want to be? And then if the answer is no, how do you communicate that with the people in your life? That was really hard for me because with, with my husband, I had told him I wanted four children. And so here I was, I was a stay at home wife, taking care of him, every single need he had. To the point where he would get home from work, his dinner was waiting for him. He'd wake up in the morning, his gym clothes were right there waiting, next to his bed. He'd put his gym clothes on, I would hand him his key. I mean, I'm talking every ounce of thing that he needed. And this was a decision we made together.

• 1:31:49Rich Roll?

  If I told my wife I wanted her to put my gym clothes out, you know, she would just look at me like, are you insane?

• 1:31:54Speaker 00

  And I know, the funny thing is now I laugh at it, but it was, I was the one that actually said that. Because at the time, the decision was, he was gonna go and make money for movies. And we had just read an interview with Steve Jobs, who said, he doesn't make, he doesn't spend even an ounce of his time making decisions of things that don't matter.

• 1:32:11Rich Roll?

  Same black t-shirt every day, that whole thing.

• 1:32:14Speaker 00

  So that's what we did. I was like, oh, that makes sense. Babe, I'll make every decision for you outside of business. That way, we can expedite the business side of it. And we can hopefully make more money in a shorter period of time, and now we can go make movies. So that's why I decided, you wake up, your clothes are there. You'd, you go to work, I hand you a lunch bag. Like, I did everything. And so then, flash forward.

• 1:32:36Rich Roll?

  You slowly disappear in the process of doing that.

• 1:32:38Speaker 00

  So then, exactly, you then, you do, a hundred percent. And then, quest quit fifty seven thousand percent, I realized how much I loved business, and I was trying to juggle both. Now, in that, I was just not doing anything well. And so that became the point of, who do I wanna be? What do I actually wanna do? And I realized I loved entrepreneurship. I loved being challenged. I love showing myself what I'm capable of. One day not knowing something, not having a skill set, and then facing that, and then trying, and finally succeeding, just lit me up. And so I had to sit down and communicate that with Tom. And a big part of that was, A, showing your partner respect, that I was the one changing. And I had to be honest with that. It's like, yes, you've got, I was this person, and now I am the one changing.

• 1:33:22Speaker 00

  So having the respect to show them, or show them the respect. Then number two, I was like, I know my husband wants me, he wants like me to be happy. So I need to express how unhappy I was, because I never told him. And so I need to express how unhappy I was for eight years and then express to him how this is making me happy. And then I need to give him the grace to be honest about how he feels. And so in that, I said, babe, I was profoundly unhappy. I've now found myself, but I love you more than life itself, but I no longer wanna put your clothes out. I no longer wanna clean with you. In fact, I freaking hate it. Still means I love you. Doesn't change how I feel about you, but I am, I absolutely hate what I'm doing at

• 1:34:05Speaker 00

  home. And so I don't wanna leave you laundry anymore. And so his response was, you know, It's not an unreasonable request. Right. And but he was just like, look, what kind of husband would I be that I would put laundry ahead of your happiness? So he was like, you know, so look, if you don't do the laundry and I have to go work to work commando, then I'll go to work commando. And then we joke, but then literally like five weeks later or something, I didn't do the laundry for about five weeks. And he's like, babe, I'm out of underwear. So I'm going to work commando with no underwear. And I was like, all right, bye. Thanks. Um, but that's an actual true story. And that was because we communicated, I was very open about how I felt and where I was in my life. I gave him the space to also tell me how

• 1:34:47Speaker 00

  he felt. And he was honest. And he's like, look, of course I love you taking care of me. Like, what crazy person wouldn't love the fact that they don't have to think about their food and their clothes and all of that. So it's going to be difficult, but the transition is going to be difficult. So do you mind just bearing with me over this transition? And so I was like, no, what if we actually have a process? I'm gonna wean you off me being the stay at home wife. So you're used to me doing it seven days a week. Next week, I'm gonna do it six. Then the week after that, how do you feel if I just do it five? And then the week after that, I'm just gonna do it four. And then I'm gonna do it for three days a week. That way, it's a slow transition and you don't feel like I've just abandoned you. He's like, actually, that sounds really nice. Thank you for that. So

• 1:35:28Speaker 00

  I showed him I was being considerate. He was now being on board with the transition. And it ended up like he just supported me and it became like this beautiful moment where we were able to really show up for each other. And then the last piece of everything that I've just laid out is the grieving part. He had to grieve the wife that I was. And I had to grieve the wife and mother I thought I was going to be. So what I mean by that is, I decided I no longer wanted children. And my husband really wasn't, he was just like, if you really want children, like he, it wasn't as big a deal to him. But I realized I loved business so much, so much that I had to process whether I wanted children. I talk about that in the book, how I processed it. And I came to the conclusion that I didn't actually loved my life and I didn't want children.

• 1:36:13Speaker 00

  And so even talking to him about that. I decided I didn't want children, but that didn't mean there was a part of me that didn't desperately want children. And so I just had to be honest with myself that just because we make one decision in life that can be beautiful. It doesn't mean that we're not upset and heartbroken, that we've had to leave another life behind. And I think it's important to address it and then maybe mourn and grieve it. And that's what I did. I still today, which I still today would love to see little Tom running around. Have a daughter that could like, I could help build a, like a strong mindset that I never had. I could, I could get excited over it. So I knew that just because I didn't want children or like, I actually wanted children. The only thing I wanted more than children was to not have children.

• 1:36:58Speaker 00

  So I had to give myself the grace to grieve the idea of being a mother. I had to give Tom the grace to grieve the idea that we weren't going to have children. And then we were able to overcome it, that I can actually say it with total honesty and clarity. That yes, it's still heartbreaking, but it literally holds no tie to my heart anymore.

• 1:37:18Rich Roll?

  Well, it's also a situation where everybody's going to have a lot of opinions and judgments.

• 1:37:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:37:23Rich Roll?

  And you have to be prepared to be on the receiving end of everybody questioning that or having their idea around that.

• 1:37:30Speaker 00

  Yes, and actually going back to the people pleasing um subjects. My mom told me growing up, my entire life, even when I got married. I want nothing more in life than to be a grandmother. Those words actually came out. Now, I had then decided I wasn't gonna have kids, so I had to tell her. And I knew she would be devastated, I knew I'd break her heart. And so, how do you make sure that you still hold true to who you are and what you want in life? Knowing that you're about to hurt someone. To your point, you have to stand firm and really ground yourself in your decision. Before you tell anyone else, because, to your point, people are gonna come to you, they're gonna try and persuade you. They're gonna try and degrade you, they're gonna try and um tell you why you're wrong.

• 1:38:15Speaker 00

  And so, how do you stay firm without being like a bull in a china shop that's like, "Don't you talk to me like that, I've decided not to have kids," because again, that doesn't help my relationship with my mom either. So how do you do it with Grace? How do you show up and communicate that? Without giving up or backtracking on this decision that you is really aligned with who you wanna be?

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  Right, so how do you do it? How do you drop the bomb?

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  I did it with utter respect. So with my mom, originally I was like, "Mom, you know, I know that you really want grandchildren, I've decided." And I tried to do exactly what I did with Tom, because it worked with Tom, so I was like, "I'm just gonna explain to her." That it's, you know, it fills my heart and I really love it. But I realized that the very next time, she kept asking me, "So when you're gonna have grand, when you're gonna have kids?" I'm like, "I just told her." Like, literally a couple of weeks ago, I just told her that I'm not having kids and she still asks me.

• 1:39:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she was dismissed from that compartment of the brain.

• 1:39:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. So, I was like, "Okay, it's just the reality she doesn't want to hold on to." So I think she's hoping that it was a phase in my life. And so I just needed to be firm in talking to her about it openly. But the other part was, I actually said to her, "Mom, can you please stop asking me? I know why, and I know it comes from a good place," that's another thing, making sure people don't feel like they're being attacked. Like, "Mom, I know this is coming from a good place, and I know that you you are asking me because you hope that maybe I'm gonna change my mind." And that hope is maybe giving you a feeling that you that makes you feel good. But I actually don't wanna give you false hope, and you asking me actually makes me feel like you're dismissing the decision I've made. And that was the moment she just burst into tears.

• 1:39:50Speaker 00

  And that was, I think, the recognition that she was like, okay, I am not able to persuade you and you've just told me that trying to persuade you is actually hurting you. So as your mother, of course, I will respect it. And look, that doesn't mean that other parents are going to react like that, right? And it doesn't mean that other people are going to give you the grace in the decision you make.

• 1:40:09Rich Roll?

  Part of the calculus in not having kids that you talk about in the book is just getting honest with the fact that like you both love your life and what you're doing and you love business. And Tom having the recognition that he didn't want to be an absentee father, that if he was gonna be a father, he wanted to be, you know, the kind of father that would, that would be in alignment with his values. And that that would be, that would create a situation that, you know, perhaps was untenable because of putting conflict, these two ideas, which I think is a really, you know, I mean, it's, it takes honesty and vulnerability to like admit that. But to then say, you know, so we're going to make this decision fine. Although I would say to you, I think you guys work too hard. Tom's working 120 hours a week. Like, I understand he's passionate about what he's doing and that's, that's cool.

• 1:40:53Rich Roll?

  And you don't have kids and more power to you. You should do whatever you want to do, but like, you know, that's, that's intense, man.

• 1:41:00Speaker 00

  It is. And, you know, it's one of these, as long as, the second it starts to get in our relationship, like interfere with our relationship, I will speak up.

• 1:41:09Rich Roll?

  But if he's working 120 hours a week, how could it not? Like, that's basically all waking hours.

• 1:41:14Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. So we base, we sit down and again, I'm the one that waves the flag. So from Monday to Friday, when he wakes up, usually he's out of bed before I am. And so I kiss him good morning, my kettle is boiled, right? So I know he's thought about me. And then we typically just have business meetings. And then to the end of the day, I may not see him, I may not interact with him until he gets into bed. So that's our Monday to Friday. He may get into bed. Now, look, at the end of the day, I want my husband to feel fulfilled. Because if he's not fulfilled, he's not bringing his best self to the bit, to the relationship. So if he finds joy in working that much, I just, you know, I support him. I support him until it becomes detrimental.

• 1:41:58Speaker 00

  For instance, to your point, where do you find time? I'm I'm very busy. I'm very passionate about what I do as well. So I don't feel the I don't feel neglected in any way, or I don't feel like he's an absent husband. But because I'm on the tour with my book and it's been so busy. In fact, literally yesterday, yesterday, Rich, I text him and I said, babe, I just looked at our calendar. We haven't connected for two weeks. I just looked at our calendar. Your mum arrives tomorrow. So his mum arrives today. And I was like, and then she's here for two weeks and then I go straight to England to carry on my book tour. So there's four weeks now that we're not going to hang out and actually have quality time. Because I'm all about quality time. I'm not about how much time. It just has to be quality.

• 1:42:42Speaker 00

  And so I just identified, oh, if we don't change something right now, if he continues down the hundred and twenty hours to your point of working this much, now it becomes detrimental to our relationship and I ain't having that. So I text him yesterday and he's like, okay, let's make time. And so now it's like, I feel very confident that he's going to make sure that he has time for us to connect. And in those moments, the hundred and twenty hours don't sit well with me because, you know, he's not going to be with me if he has to do a hundred and twenty hours. But other than that, like, I know who I'm married. And that was another thing, like, I've seen so many couples that they think that if you've got a ring on your finger or you've got children, that it changes the person. So I just go into it with honesty and my eyes wide open. So to your point of what you said earlier,

• 1:43:24Speaker 00

  when I, you know, we were going to have kids or I was assessing whether we should have kids or not. I looked at my life and I said, I love working. So if I had children, what would that look like right now? And so in that, I had to ask Tom, babe, what type of father do you want to be? And he said, I don't want to be the father that's coming home or the person that's coming home at five, six o'clock in the evening to have dinner with the kids. I'm so passionate about what I do. That from Monday, basically from Monday to Friday, I won't be getting up in the middle of the night and changing their diapers and I won't be home at six P M to have dinner. Now, I can only respect that he was honest with me. And so now, the fact that he was honest with me, I can take that information and then see, is that the life that I want?

• 1:44:06Speaker 00

  Do I want kids where the father, where my husband isn't going to be home at dinner every night? Does that mean that I'm basically a single parent from Monday to Friday? At least I know. Because the amount of people that I've seen in marriages, especially when there's new kids, where they're like, my husband, I had to force him to get up in the middle of the night. I don't want to be in a position where I'm forcing my husband to do anything. So if we can at least have the communication with no judgment, then you can just take it for fact before I actually have the kid and then realise, oh, oh, you're not going to be, you know, getting up in the middle of the night. I don't want that surprise. Now knowing what type of father he's going to be, he said to me, on the weekends, babe, of course I want to be there for my children. So knowing that piece of information, I literally said to him, so where's the time for me and you?

• 1:44:51Speaker 00

  And that's where the realisation came from, where it's like, oh, so if we do this, based on what we know about each other, based on what we know about ourselves, this could damage our relationship. And are we willing to risk that? And the answer was no.

• 1:45:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you thought through every permutation of the whole thing and made the right decision for you guys. So it's perfectly fine. I just don't want Tom to have his version of your gut issues because he's working too hard.

• 1:45:17Speaker 00

  And that's very important to me and I actually, I'm trying to be a, what's the word? A good example. So he'll say like, oh, well, let's just have this, the meeting at seven P M. And I'll be like, no babe, I'm, I'm switching off today at six. You know, and I'll just be like, you can, you can come and join me, you know, or like, hey, I need space, I need to create this mental space for me. He's definitely way like just hardcore, like he thrives off it. And so, but as the wife, obviously I care about his health and so making sure that we're able to do what we can to optimise his health in any way possible. So his sleep, his diet, all of that.

• 1:45:58Rich Roll?

  The last thing I want to get into is this transition into being a media company. While you were still at Quest, there was this decision to create kind of like this in-house talk show. I remember those early videos. And then there's the Quest Exit, and now Impact Theory, and Women of Impact, and all these shows that you guys are doing. It's very professionally run. You guys have both developed really large followings of people. You put out like the highest quality content. I mean, it's so clearly distinguished from pretty much everything else that's out there, like the level of intentionality that goes into it, the guest selection, like everything about it is like top tier and like is it the tip of the spear? Everybody's watching to see what you guys are doing and then are

• 1:46:42Rich Roll?

  mimicking it or copying it. And it's cool. And I think it's, you know, an amazing service that you put out into the world for free. So walk me through like that decision. Like after the Quest Exit, there's no real urgency to do anything. Like, how do you find meaning? You've achieved such tremendous success. What is the impetus and the motivation and the kind of value set that's driving you guys so hard to work so hard on this stuff and, you know, put this messaging out into the world?

• 1:47:14Speaker 00

  First of all, I want to say thank you. That's a huge compliment coming from you. So I appreciate that. So as we were building Quest, the mission part of it became a very strong pull for me and Tom. So for me, originally, it was, you know, save, help Quest to save your house, that you don't lose your house. And then over time, that is obviously a very fear-based thing to propel you forward. And so over time, I needed to attach to a mission. And so we got this letter one day from this woman really early on. She was anorexic, and she'd been in hospital. She was 40 pounds, and she was basically on her deathbed.

• 1:47:49Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:47:50Speaker 00

  And she wrote us an email and said, "Thank you for making Quest bars because it made me okay with calories again." Now, having a mother who was borderline anorexic, having, you know, unhealthy relationship with food myself, I didn't see that coming. I expected like the obese community, you thank you for helping me lose weight. And then there was another letter from this woman who, she had a type one diabetic son. And he was like four years old and she's like, every day of his life, I'm always having to follow him, make sure he doesn't pick up cupcakes at birthday parties and blah, blah, blah. And I feel like a terrible mother. But he can actually have Quest bars and his blood sugar doesn't spike. Thank you for making me feel like a better mum. And I was like, oh my god.

• 1:48:30Speaker 00

  So, mission very much over time became a big pull for me. And so as our mission and the company grew, that story that I said where we got the house and it was like the, the, the dream come true, that day where like you hear rumours that, you know, it, it takes a while when you sell a portion of a company. So you heard rumours it was gonna hit on one day. And so we're waiting, we're waiting, we're like refreshing our bank account basically, and then all of a sudden the money hits. But we were tied to a mission. So as soon as the money hits, we celebrated, we took a selfie and we got dressed and went straight back to work. So, as Quest just got bigger and bigger, we realised that Quest bars were amazing for people who had already decided they were worth it.

• 1:49:13Speaker 00

  That people who already decided, you know what, I'm not gonna pick up a candy bar today, I'm gonna pick up a Quest bar. But what about the millions and millions of people that don't even believe they're worth it? That are too depressed or to have too much anxiety to walk into the gym. How do you help those people? And what we realised was our transformation and our lives had become because of the mindset. And so Tom and I said, we need to really help people with the mind. And because both of our backgrounds were filmmaking, we both loved content. Tom was like, well babe, what if I, you know, we build a studio and I just interview the most incredible people, doctors, influencers, business people, anyone who has amazing message to help impact people. Now, that really is like the no BS.

• 1:49:54Speaker 00

  How do you actually create 360 wellness? You attach the mind and the body, not just the body. So.

• 1:50:02Speaker 00

  So we started this show, started doing very well, and then we realised that that was the most powerful piece. Now, when you're growing and you've got business partners, we realised that this was really where our heart was, they wanted to focus on just the body. So we spun that studio out into our own studio. And so we realised that was where the people were going to meet us in order to get the quest bar. Like my mum, she was clinically obese by the time I, this, this whole story started. Um, and I was trying to throw money at it, like, mum, he's the best chef, he's a trainer, like, lose, and she kept saying, I can't lose the weight, I'm too old, I'm too old, I'm seventy, I'm too old, diets don't work for me. She happened to have retired just as we started, uh, Impact Theory. And so she started to watch Tom's content.

• 1:50:46Speaker 00

  And as she was watching Tom's content, within a year, she lost a hundred and twenty pounds. Wow. And she went from the person that said, she can't lose the weight, she's too old, to one day, I called her up and I'm like, oh mum, how you doing, how's the, you know, the, the, the health journey going, because I always try to, you know, about health, not weight. How's the health journey going? She was like, well, it was really raining today. And in my mind, I was like, and here come the excuses, right, of why she wasn't able to maybe get in her health, um, her health workout that she said she was gonna do. And she's like, so, I got in the car and I drove to the biggest grocery store near us and I got my Fitbit and I walked up and down the aisles, I did four miles and I bought an apple and I turned around and drove back home. Oh.

• 1:51:31Speaker 00

  Now, that is mindset right there in action. That is showing someone how even in her seventies, just by changing how she thought about things, she was able to achieve whatever she wanted in life. And so for us, the, the pivot really became the question of what do we want to wake up every day and do? We could have bought an island, you know, we could have bought an island, but after a week, we would have been bored. What's that mission? What's that reason you get up every day? And so for us now, the reason why Tom worked a hundred and twenty hours is because he believes even more now in what we do. He believes even more in what we're trying to achieve. And so that's why you see us, like, if we work as hard as we do, it's because we so believe and, and attach ourselves to our mission.

• 1:52:17Speaker 00

  That we hold ourselves accountable. And again, because of my health, that I said, I'm so glad it happened on that day of all days. Because it taught me immediately that money and success doesn't buy you happiness. How you feel about yourself does. That's it. How you feel about yourself. So do I feel healthy? Do I feel good? Do I have a healthy mindset? Am I proud of myself? Do I get up every day and fight for something bigger than myself? If I can keep answering those as yes, then I know I'm doing the right thing.

• 1:52:45Rich Roll?

  Hmm. That's beautiful. Just don't fall into the all this wellness is making me unwell trap.

• 1:52:51Speaker 00

  I know. And here's the thing.

• 1:52:52Rich Roll?

  Like, we're so of service.

• 1:52:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:52:54Rich Roll?

  That we're actually like destroying our own lives in the process.

• 1:52:57Speaker 00

  And Rich, you're a hundred percent right. And look, it is, it can become detrimental. And so I'm very aware of that because of my gut issues. And I am definitely make sure, or at least not definitely make sure, I try to make sure right now especially that I'm focusing on that, especially with Tom as well.

• 1:53:16Rich Roll?

  Um, final thing I want to get into and then I'll, I'll release you to your life.

• 1:53:19Speaker 00

  No, this has been so funny. Are you joking?

• 1:53:22Rich Roll?

  Is, uh, well, I mean, I think what we should do is, is round this out with just some thoughts for people that are at the beginning of this radical confidence journey. Like, what are the first steps that somebody can take? I'm imagining the person who's watching or listening, who feels alone, who has an issue with self-esteem, who doesn't feel deserving of good things, who, who once had an ambition for what their life could be, but is now in a situation that's okay, why rock the boat? And, you know, incur that risk into your life if you don't think that it's ever going to work out anyway. Like untie that knot and let's get that person

• 1:54:04Rich Roll?

  on a different mindset route towards a healthier perspective and, you know, provide them with the beginning points of a set of tools that could reshape how they're thinking about this and move them in a better direction.

• 1:54:18Speaker 00

  All right, let's do it. So step one, I think is saying, right now, are you saying, I'm going to do this when?

• 1:54:27Speaker 00

  So if you like, just start taking inventory. If you do, I want to ask you a question. What if that when never comes? Would you still be on the path you're on now? Like, imagine this thing. Would you still do what you do every day? If you knew that the when never came? If your answer is no, that's amazing because now you've identified that you need to make a shift. Now, how do you make that shift? I want them to answer the other question is you want the confidence in order to do what? So you have to identify what that goal is. Right? So it's like you realize you have to recognize that you're not on the path you want to be. You have to recognize now what that path should look or could look like and that end goal. And then you need to create a stepping stone plan of how you're going to do it.

• 1:55:12Speaker 00

  One small step at a time. Maybe you can't even do the plan yet. Maybe you just have to take inventory of what you do on a daily basis. So you can just assess where your life is being spent now. Cause you've said it multiple times, right? We all go on autopilot and may not even know. And then putting those stepping stones of what that looks like. But then I would actually say, I do tell the people around me. So sharing this new path, this new goal with the people, I think is going to be very helpful for people that may not be able to take that first step. And it doesn't have to be everyone. And I would actually advise only tell the people that you actually feel are going to support you. Because right now, maybe you're not strong enough to tell people that are going to be like, oh my God, you're going to do that? Cause everybody obviously has an opinion.

• 1:55:57Speaker 00

  And then, once you've identified the steps, now, in fact, actually, I'm going to back up. I missed out one step. What is your mission? Because you may have a goal. But you have to tie that goal to a mission. Because you don't know if you're actually going to get to the goal. And you can sure bet that on your way to the goal, you're going to have hurdles and obstacles all along the way. So how do you keep moving forward? For me, it was absolutely identifying that mission. Because in everything we've been talking about, facing the fear, facing the insecurity, facing the negative, you know, voice. How, why? Because people are like, why would I do that? Why would I keep moving forward? To me, it was the mission.

• 1:56:40Speaker 00

  Every time I doubted myself, I had to bring myself back to that. And so when someone's thinking about a mission, to me, it's like, what is that thing that pulls at your heartstrings?

• 1:56:50Speaker 00

  Now, once you've thought about it, actually be succinct in what that mission is. Because you can't be like up in, "I kinda wanna, I wanna create impact." Even that, what does that mean? That could be like you wanna create impact for your kid? You wanna impact your friend? Like, how do you know if you're actually moving towards it or not? So to me, I think being very succinct in that mission is also the next step. How do you write a mission statement?

• 1:57:14Rich Roll?

  Well, even, sorry to intercede.

• 1:57:16Speaker 00

  No, please, jump in.

• 1:57:17Rich Roll?

  I think, you know, the greater, like, what I'm imagining as you're saying this is the person who is stuck in kind of a dead-end situation or just a less-than-stellar situation. Who's thinking, like, all they're thinking about is like, "This kinda sucks." But she's talking about a mission? Like, "I don't even know what I wanna do at all." Like, "I don't know how to have a mission." Like, I'm trying to imagine just a job that's a little bit better than the one I currently have.

• 1:57:44Speaker 00

  Okay, thank you, that's amazing. Because I think that's really freaking strong. Because I think about mission now as like, it's the thing that I always go to. But you're right, how do people even know what a mission is? Sometimes you may not know. And that's where experiments come in. You have to give yourself the grace to see what pulls at your heartstrings. Because you may not know, you may have been stuck. To your point, like I was, may have been stuck for eight years, you don't even know. Like, I wouldn't have known that my mission was to help people if I hadn't have started Quest and been thrown into it. So I think it becomes giving yourself the grace to experiment. What does that actually look like? Take out a piece of paper and just jot down all the things that sound good. Like, I'm, like, so if it was impact, let's just say, "I wanna impact people." Okay, what does that actually mean? Well, I'm not actually sure yet.

• 1:58:29Speaker 00

  Okay, well, write out a list of all the ways you can impact people. Go volunteer at a homeless shelter. Maybe that's your jam.

• 1:58:38Rich Roll?

  I think most people who say they wanna impact people, what they're really saying is they want attention.

• 1:58:42Speaker 00

  Oh, interesting, okay, so let's piece that. In fact, I love that honesty. And here's the thing, actually, if you can, if people listening right now can be that honest with themselves, I think that that can be beautiful. And the reason why I think that can be beautiful is the next question I ask is, "Why do you feel like you need attention?" And then it's like, "Well, because I don't get attention, I don't feel good about myself."

• 1:59:02Rich Roll?

  I'm not seen.

• 1:59:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not seen, okay, great.

• 1:59:05Rich Roll?

  Or I have some deep insecurity. You know, I feel invisible in the world, or, or my ego is wounded, or, you know, it could be a million things. I mean, my point in bringing that up is that it's a little bit... More in, it's more of an internal search, a deep psychological search than it is just, you know, like, oh, these are the things that interest me. When you're drilling down to like, mission, because I think we play tricks on ourselves. We're not even honest with ourselves about what it is that we actually want.

• 1:59:33Speaker 00

  That's actually really true, and I love that. And I think that being able to drill down just means like, for me, it's taking the judgment away and then just keep asking questions. So, you know, well, I just wanna, you know, I want impact because I want to feel good about myself. Okay, well, why don't you feel good about yourself right now? What would that look like? Because sometimes, to your point, we may not know. And so if you can give yourself the grace, the grace, the grace, grace, to just keep asking question, and then see where it leads you, you know, and then I do think trying though, because sometimes you don't know. And so you're like, well, I don't think really, that doesn't sound great. Just give it a shot. Because maybe you'll be surprised. And so if you don't actually

• 2:00:14Speaker 00

  take action, that's also another thing. Because I think some people actually will stay internal, right? They're just like, well, I'm doing the inner work, but they're not actually putting themselves out there.

• 2:00:23Rich Roll?

  The inner work has to translate into some kind of behavioral change at some point.

• 2:00:27Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, I love that.

• 2:00:28Rich Roll?

  It's just masturbatory.

• 2:00:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It really is. Because it's kind of like, you know, the, I can't remember the phrase that people use now, where it's like, they listen to the podcasts and they read the books. And so they're like, yes, I'm in self-help. But they're not taking action. They're convinced themselves that by doing the work or listening to the podcast or, you know, going to these events, that they're doing the work. But if you're only looking at one piece of the puzzle, I think that there's a whole other world that you're missing. So if all you're looking at is what your actions are, and you're not internalizing it, that's a problem. But also on the reverse, if all you're doing is internalizing and doing the inner work, but not taking the action to actually prove to yourself whether you

• 2:01:11Speaker 00

  can do it, whether it feels right, whether it is pulling at your heartstrings, how are you ever gonna know? You're gonna stay internal. And to me, the action part is such an imperative part of the process.

• 2:01:21Rich Roll?

  There's an epidemic of that. You know, you scroll through Instagram, you see the inspiring quote, you listen to the podcast, you read the book, or you, you, you know, read the summary of the book, and then you feel like you've accomplished something. There is a little bit of a dopamine release with that, like, oh, this was an esteemable act on behalf of myself. I've done the work. Why isn't my life any better?

• 2:01:43Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:01:43Rich Roll?

  And, oh, well, it must be because there's this new book that came out this week, or this other podcast that I haven't listened to. At this point, the information is all out there, you know? And then it becomes on you as to whether you start practicing it and really getting honest with yourself and modifying some of your behavior patterns that are leading you astray.

• 2:02:03Speaker 00

  A thousand percent. And that's why I also write the book. I didn't want people to think of me being as like anything but completely imperfect. But I'm actually okay with that. I just keep showing up. And even today, you know, I've just been traveling, so I've been really tired. And so I have, I actually put on some like socks that's

• 2:02:23Speaker 00

  I'm gonna pull off my shoes. All right, so she believes she could.

• 2:02:28Rich Roll?

  Nice.

• 2:02:28Speaker 00

  So she did.

• 2:02:29Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. Where'd you get those?

• 2:02:32Speaker 00

  My sister actually gave me these, but I've got Wonder Woman socks. So the point of why I'm showing you my socks right now is because I want you to know there are moments where I don't feel great. There are moments where I'm tired and, you know, I have doubt and I have insecurities. And so I just say, how do I keep showing up? And it's okay. And giving yourself the grace that it's never one and done. It's never perfection. It is this ebb and flow. It is this ever evolving, like, oh, I used this technique. It didn't work. What else am I gonna try? Because to me, I don't want people to just listen to this podcast or read the book and feel good about themselves for an hour. The whole point is for them to actually take the tactics and use them in their life. Because I still use the tactics. Like I said, I've got the socks on today because I needed that extra little boost of confidence

• 2:03:17Speaker 00

  to come to the Rich Roll Podcast. So, you know, I just own it and I adapt and don't think that I've always got it handled.

• 2:03:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I appreciate that. And I appreciate the Women of Impact show that you host being so female centric. I think this whole kind of self-improvement internet space is overwhelmingly too male dominated. And, you know, with the exception of, you know, there's Brene Brown and Glennon Doyle. There's some amazing women out there, but there aren't enough. And I think it's really cool that you're like, I'm gonna have these amazing women on. These are the stories I'm gonna share. I'm gonna put out this certain message for a certain type of audience that is underserved right now.

• 2:03:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:03:59Rich Roll?

  I just wanted to like acknowledge that as being like a powerful and important thing that you do.

• 2:04:04Speaker 00

  Thank you. It actually comes, can I be honest? It comes from such a selfish place. I'm like getting in front of these women every week. Um, I learn and it empowers me and that's part of why I do it as well. Cause I'm like, if I'm just showing up and these women are not impacting me, how can I expect them to impact other people? And so I think that, you know, we're all like a example. And so for me, it's like, I'm always showing up flawed and, you know, try to own it in the most honest sense possible. And then having these guests on to kind of show that none of us are perfect, no, no one knows everything. And as a female, it's okay to own insecurities, it's okay to, you know, talk about things, but to not let it stop you. Um, and that's been my journey. And so as much as I can help impact people, you want to talk about the mission, right?

• 2:04:49Speaker 00

  That's what gets me out of bed every day.

• 2:04:50Rich Roll?

  Right. And not stop you from engaging with Patty Jenkins. Her at the airport, cause you have a Wonder Woman symbol on the back of your head, like shaved into the back of your head. And you run into the director of Wonder Woman.

• 2:05:03Speaker 00

  Died. I almost died. I had the Wonder Woman shaved because.

• 2:05:07Rich Roll?

  Come on, it's like, it was, it's, that's a divine link. Of course you were gonna run into Patty Jenkins.

• 2:05:11Speaker 00

  So the funny thing is, is that was another empowerment piece. So I was going to New York, it was the week of my launch of my book. And I was on my first live television show, Tamron Hall. Now I've never been on live television before, so I was so scared. I was petrified. And so I was like, all right, Lisa, you know who you are. You don't always have to feel confident, but you do have radical confidence, which means you're gonna use the tools you need in order to show up and go on Tamron Hall. And so I was like, I needed the Wonder Woman logo shaved in my head and I do it every so often. And so I happened to have done it. And then yes, at the airport on the way back, I get a tap on the shoulder. And it's freaking Patty Jenkins. And she's like, I just saw the Wonder Woman logo. I saw your backpack has a Wonder Woman logo. And she's like, I just had to come and say hello.

• 2:05:53Rich Roll?

  That's so great.

• 2:05:54Speaker 00

  It's so amazing.

• 2:05:55Rich Roll?

  You gotta get her on the, on your show.

• 2:05:57Speaker 00

  Oh dude, I'm working on it. Trust me. She's amazing.

• 2:06:00Rich Roll?

  She's a beast. She's got a great backstory too. Punk rock and, you know, like, it's a really cool, like, story about like following your heart and your intuition.

• 2:06:09Speaker 00

  I actually don't know too much about her backstory.

• 2:06:11Rich Roll?

  She has a great story. Yeah, yeah. She would be a great guest.

• 2:06:14Speaker 00

  Oh, I, I'm totally girl crushing on her and I'm just like, oh my God, she's so amazing. I mean, like, come on, she makes movies. Directs movies and Wonder Woman. It's like, am I not, I'm like absolutely obsessed with her. But like, that's the other thing is that I still allow myself to play so much. I allow myself so much to be that kid that when I freaking meet Patty Jenkins, I lose my mind. And I'm like, I can't believe I met Patty Jenkins. You know, I allow that. I want to feel joy in my heart. I want to be silly. Like, that's how I keep showing up is the excitement in me that keeps me going. And I think as adults, um, I definitely had lost that for years and years and years. And so I purposely cultivate it now, which is why I put the Wonder Woman logo in my,

• 2:06:56Speaker 00

  you know, my office is full of statues of superheroes doing like these powerful moves and flying in the air. And I've literally got like statues in my office.

• 2:07:04Rich Roll?

  We gotta get you over to Sideshow.

• 2:07:06Speaker 00

  I know. I, I so wanna go.

• 2:07:08Rich Roll?

  That's, that's where they make the best statues.

• 2:07:09Speaker 00

  That's why I came in your, your room and I was just like totally like, I was like, this is like Disneyland to me right now, guys. It's beautiful.

• 2:07:17Rich Roll?

  We'll set that up. In the meantime, uh, I really appreciate everything you shared today. Thank you. Yeah. It's super inspiring. You have such a command over the message that you're trying to put out into the world and it's earned through experience and I just found it very helpful. And so I am at your service. I appreciate everything that you're doing and super cool. Uh, and it's been fun getting to know you a little bit today. And I look forward to getting to know you and Tom a little bit better.

• 2:07:42Speaker 00

  Thank you. It's been such a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

• 2:07:45Rich Roll?

  Uh, in the meantime, everybody pick up Radical Confidence. You can find it on Amazon or at least a bill you dot com.

• 2:07:51Speaker 00

  Radicalconfidence.com.

• 2:07:52Rich Roll?

  Radicalconfidence.com.

• 2:07:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, I've got the website.

• 2:07:55Rich Roll?

  There you go. Uh, Women of Impact, Lisa's easy to find on the internet. Anywhere else you wanna direct people or any kind of announcements you wanna make before we wrap up here?

• 2:08:03Speaker 00

  No, that's great. I mean, the book is on radicalconfidence.com and my podcast, I usually focus on the video content. So it's more on YouTube. Yeah, I love YouTube. Um, you get to see like the interaction and yeah.

• 2:08:15Rich Roll?

  Cool. All right. We'll come back and talk to me again sometime.

• 2:08:17Speaker 00

  Definitely. Thanks for having me. Later.

• 2:08:25Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 2:09:10Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets courtesy

• 2:09:52Rich Roll?

  of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.