Advice Line with Andrew Abraham of Orgain

Orgain founder and CEO Andrew Abraham joins Guy on the Advice Line, where they answer questions from three early-stage founders about strategically positioning their products. Today we meet Brynn, who’s tackling cavities and dental anxiety with an electric flosser. Then Turner, a radiologist mixing up craft cocktails for the golf course. And Catherine, whose pasta sauces and dressings help ease the weeknight dinner juggle. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. And check out Orgain’s founding story https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/f540618e-09e9-47dc-9219-cd803621a729/embed from Andrew’s first appearance on the show in 2023. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Cena Loffredo. You can follow HIBT on X https://twitter.com/HowIBuiltThis & Instagram https://www.instagram.com/howibuiltthis and sign up for Guy's free newsletter at guyraz.com http://guyraz.com. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 0:46Guy Raz?

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• 1:32Guy Raz?

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• 2:16Guy Raz?

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• 3:00Guy Raz?

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• 5:12Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected]. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.

• 5:56Guy Raz?

  It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Andrew Abraham. He's the founder of the organic nutritional shake company, Organe. Andrew, welcome back to the show.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Thank you, guys. A pleasure to be here.

• 6:20Guy Raz?

  So great having you. You were last on the show, not too long ago. I think back in August of 2023. It's an awesome story, of course, of Organe. And that story starts when you were a teenager. You were diagnosed with cancer. You were undergoing chemotherapy. Just a harrowing story. You lost so much weight that your doctors were basically giving you nutritional shakes and sure. And they did help you gain weight, but they really made you feel bad, bloating and pain. And they weren't very healthy. So you thought, hey, I can make something better. Eventually, you did, and you went on to build a national brand. And you did this while you were a full-time medical student and resident.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  That's correct. Yeah. So that was how it started and how it's come to fruition. And it's been a very humbling journey all the way through.

• 7:07Guy Raz?

  All right. Fast forward, of course, to today. Nestle now owns a stake in Organe, but you are still the CEO. You're still very much involved in the day-to-day business. How has your day-to-day changed since when you were the one managing the customer service line?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's evolved quite a bit, Guy, but it's been a wonderful experience, actually, that the brand has been growing by leaps and bounds. Nestle is expanding the brand internationally, and the brand continues to make progress in a variety of different channels. We have, we launched 28 products last year. I'm still in the day-to-day, to your point, and still working with the team very, very closely and really enjoying every minute of it. It's been awesome.

• 7:46Guy Raz?

  And you've got product lines for kids and for grownups. I mean, I know my kids have done those kids protein shakes and with the monkey on it, right?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, the monkey milk. Yes.

• 7:55Guy Raz?

  Yeah, the monkey milk.

• 7:59Guy Raz?

  One of the things that I think brings a lot of legitimacy and credibility to your brand is that you're a doctor. You're an MD, not a practicing doctor anymore, but because you quit the profession after your brand got into Whole Foods, a wise move. But there's a lot of, there are a lot of claims in the health and wellness space that are sometimes just junk. You know, that you see it on Instagram and stuff. How do you, like, how do you think founders of health and wellness brands?

• 8:29Guy Raz?

  Need to be thinking about communicating the science behind their products.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  I think the simpler, the better, right? I think now more than ever, to your point, you're seeing millions of claims online, right? Products that change your life in these 10 ways. And the truth is, people just want it to be credible and they want it to be simple. And they want to incorporate it in their diet and their daily basis without sacrificing. So when we make a product, we want it to be this amazing plant-based product, but we don't want you to sacrifice on taste. This is how you incorporate it into your day. This is how you get your protein. We try to keep it very simple. I do something called the kid test, Guy. And the kid test is very simple. If you can't explain your product to a 10-year-old kid and he fully understands what it is in a matter of seconds, then you need to refine your strategy a little bit.

• 9:14Guy Raz?

  I love it, the kid test.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:16Guy Raz?

  That's really smart, actually. All right, Andrew, we have some callers waiting to get some help with their businesses. Hopefully, we can help them. Are you, are you ready to take some calls?

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely, I'd love to. Let's do it.

• 9:30Guy Raz?

  Okay. All right, caller number one, I think it's Bryn. Bryn, are you there with us?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  Hi.

• 9:37Guy Raz?

  Hello, welcome Bryn. Tell us your name, tell us where you're calling from and the name of your business.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Awesome. So my name is Bryn Snyder. I'm from Spokane, Washington. I'm the co-founder and CEO of the Slate Electric Flosser. It is the first world three-in-one device that helps stimulate your gums and make flossing easy and effective.

• 10:00Guy Raz?

  And tell us the question you brought for us.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  Okay. So my other co-founder is my husband Danny Snyder, who's a dentist. And sometimes I think we focus too much on the educational part because we really care about that. We want our consumers to know why they need to floss. But we know that talking to our consumers on their level is really important. And so. I was gonna ask, what did you do to find the most important way to connect with your consumers?

• 10:36Guy Raz?

  Got it. Okay, we're gonna get to your question. I'm gonna start with a full disclosure, because very rarely does this happen. But I use this product, Andrew. I actually use the Slate Flosser. It's a small business. I love that. And I have one. And I replace the flosser tips every week and I use it in my teeth. Their teeth are amazing. Look at my teeth. They're pretty good, right? I mean, this is basically, Bryn, it's like a vibrating flosser, right? It's like a sonic care kind of vibration, but with floss at the end. Tell us how you guys even came up with this thing.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Danny went to dental school in 2015 and he started seeing patients and they had so much dental anxiety.

• 11:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  And he was like, how do I get them to enjoy the dentist? And I'm like, I love going to the dentist, but it was because I never had a cavity before. And so...

• 11:32Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Okay, okay, Bryn.

• 11:34Speaker 02

  I got them later on, but I was like, what could we do? And he said, if I could just get patients to floss, then they wouldn't have gum disease or cavities. And floss picks exist. They're the easier way, but no one is stimulating their gums. And so there's actually patients we have that use floss picks and they go to the appointment and the hygienist will say, are you flossing? And they're like, yeah. And they're like, well, you're not doing it effectively. So Dr. Snyder was like, I have to make a product that makes flossing so easy that people do it and then so effective that it stimulates their gums and hygienists are able to see a difference.

• 12:18Guy Raz?

  And so that's what he came up with. And you're right, flossing, for a lot of people, flossing is a pain. It's annoying. But Andrew, you can speak to this. We know that there's a connection between certain diseases and bad oral hygiene, right?

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, for sure. And I think it goes well beyond oral health today, right, Bryn? I mean, a lot of people think it's just for gum health, for tooth health. But really, now we're seeing that there are studies around heart disease, right? Related to your oral health.

• 12:46Guy Raz?

  Even Alzheimer's.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Alzheimer's brain health. I just read a study about that guy. It's a very good point. So I think that education piece becomes more and more important because you're on a trend now of longevity, not just oral health, right?

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've noticed that that's actually the biggest converter for people that care is seeing, like, if you don't want dementia when you're 80, floss, because it's like, a lot of things are connected to the oral microbiome that's in your mouth.

• 13:17Guy Raz?

  All right, so you have this product, and it's, as I say, it's like a, it's like a little, sort of a mini electric toothbrush size with a, with a little floss band at the top, just a, and these little floss heads are replaceable. You replace them every couple of days. And you just hold them between your teeth, and it does all the work, right? It just vibrates, basically.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Yes, so we designed it to have 12,000 sonic vibrations. But the thing that makes our product super special is actually, on the two sides of the floss are these gum sweeps that are our patented part. And they go into what dentists call the embrasure area, where your gums and your teeth touch. Your toothbrush doesn't touch that area. And so the only way for it to be stimulated is through flossing.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  Bryn, listen, you have me sold on this. I'm gonna buy one immediately, right after this. But then the question is, how do we take this conversation that we have and turn it into an ad that's super compelling, right?

• 14:14Guy Raz?

  You can't turn this into an ad. This cannot be an ad. Just to be clear.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  Not this necessarily. I'm talking about all the wonderful things Bryn is saying, and all the things we talked about. Like, how do you make it digestible and easy for a consumer? And I think that's the jump we have to make, right?

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's been exciting because we have been able to really grow. Like, we started in November of 2022, and we were able to do over a million dollars in sales last year because we saw people care about flossing. But we are such a little company. It's like, how do we get it out there?

• 14:51Guy Raz?

  Bryn, a couple of quick questions. You guys have raised some, you raised some money from friends and family to start this because you need money to manufacture these, right?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 14:58Guy Raz?

  And, and how much did you guys raise in total?

• 15:00Speaker 02

  We raised $800,000.

• 15:02Guy Raz?

  All right, and that is, and, and so far, you're okay. You don't need to do another fundraiser. Right now, you're, you can still, based on sales and the money you raised, you can operate this business relatively efficiently.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Yes, so it's, unless we want to do major, huge growth, we have the funds we need to grow at the projections we have.

• 15:24Guy Raz?

  And how are you marketing this? I mean, how are you getting the word out to, you know, how, I mean, are you guys taking ads out? Are you doing social media? Where, where are you marketing this thing?

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we do a whole host of things. So we have two kinds of sides of Slate. We have our B2B, which is our dental focus, and then we have our D2C focus. And in D2C, we do Meta, Google Ads, and then we also do giveaways and partnerships with other companies that are interested in doing that. And then we try to work with a lot of dental influencers. So we know if we send it to a dental influencer and they like the product, then they typically will share it because they, they want people to floss. Like, all dentists want their patients to floss.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 16:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And, and how are you, how, what kind of returns are you seeing on, on those social media ads? Are they good, bad, medium, mixed?

• 16:21Speaker 02

  So it depends on the influencer, but for, for Meta, during Q4, we had phenomenal results. We were able to have like four and a half X. But now that we're back at a normal time of year, we're between two and a half and three X on our ads.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  And Bryn, what's the split between B2B and online, the percentages?

• 16:44Speaker 02

  So 90% of our stuff is direct to consumers because it's a little bit easier to reach them. We do do some CE courses with some awesome dentists who love our product. They share it in their continuing education courses. And we do attend four trade shows a year.

• 17:03Guy Raz?

  And Bryn, one of the questions I have for you is about competition because there are competing products out there. They're different. They're, they may not be as well made or well designed, but they are out there. How do you, you know, and some of these competitors might be better funded. And so my question to you is, is there a world where you guys say, okay, we're gonna, in exchange for more funding, we're gonna give up some of our ownership here?

• 17:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so we're, if we got the right partner who could help us, we would totally be excited about that because for us, we'd rather grow and develop our company. Like, the toothbrush industry is a $4 billion industry and the water flosser industry is 1.2 billion. And we believe our product is unique and we think better than the water flosser because if you went through a car wash and it just sprayed your car, it doesn't remove the little bugs, right? So we consider that to be the same as our product. If you're using a water flosser, we're so happy. We're just like, we want you to floss. But we believe that our product, because of the string and it's

• 18:10Speaker 02

  woven, it doesn't have, it actually goes and it grabs the plaque off the side of the tooth. And then our gum sweeps and bristles go in and they, they remove the plaque. And so it's like scrubbing the side of your car.

• 18:27Guy Raz?

  So Andrew, to the, to the idea you had earlier, how does Bryn explain this quickly to a 10 year old? Because I think anyone listening is like, okay, I'm convinced I want healthier gums. But, but we've talked about this for several minutes and Bryn can't talk to every single person. So how do you, how do you, what were some thoughts about how she could do this?

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, as Bryn was talking, I have some thoughts, you know, and I think to your point, Bryn, how do we talk to the consumer on their level? And the most important thing I've learned is that you have to put yourself in your customer's shoes, right? And I've read that less than 50% of the US floss their teeth and it's because it's a chore, right? So the way I like to look at it is simplify it. Like, the same way I don't like to wash dishes after dinner, but there's this dishwasher that you just put it in. You guys are the equivalent of a dishwasher, meaning you've made a chore that's been very difficult now, super, super easy. And by the way, it prevents heart disease and you cite studies and, and, you know, Brain health issues and things like that.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  But I think the biggest thing is that you have now created something that eliminates a chore and improves your quality of life and your longevity. And I think making that analogy and having that little video, or whatever it's going to be, is going to be the difference between having a good company and a great company.

• 19:45Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I agree. To this point of making it easy to floss. I want to see, what I want to see is a little bit more storytelling.

• 19:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:55Guy Raz?

  In your ads. And I mean, I'm looking at your website and I don't know how you're putting ads out, but I feel like there needs to be better storytelling, funny storytelling. I think of like, you know, we had Liquid Death on the show a couple of months ago, and they basically took mountain spring water and started associating with death, which seems so weird. But because it was so weird, that company, you know, just raised at a $1.4 billion valuation, I mean, has had incredible success in a category dominated by companies like Nestle and Coca-Cola, right? That Liquid Death has actually broken through. So I want to see, you know, maybe Danny's got to be in some of these ads. Maybe quirky ads, like, you know, I don't know, maybe like angels come down from the heavens

• 20:38Guy Raz?

  and you hear the, you know, you hear like hallelujah playing or something like that. I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, but something, you know?

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I agree. I mean, I think making it fun, approachable, and really emphasizing the fact that you've solved a problem, right? This problem has been around for a long time. A lot of people don't floss because they hate it. And you've now solved it. So I think having a fun, approachable, super easy ad that illustrates that and conveys it. And I think you could get really creative with this, and you should push the boundaries a little bit. I think it would go a very long ways. In 15 seconds, capture me and make me want to buy the product.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  So I have a question.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:15Speaker 02

  So I, we are like a higher end product, you know? To use our product on a daily basis, it only costs $4 a month, but it has an initial cost of $79.99. And so I get sometimes nervous to do funny things because, or maybe that's just a personality problem.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  No, I think, I think you gotta test them like look Sonicare and, and these expensive toothbrushes. It's a, it's a very expensive upfront investment, but those guys are working with a different checking account.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah, they have a big checking account.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  So in order to counterbalance that, you do have to think outside of the box. And by the way, you try something and you fail, that's okay. But I think the, the failure is not trying. Uh, and I think once you try and you learn, you'll be able to adjust accordingly.

• 22:00Guy Raz?

  There, there's something else I, I wonder which is, do you offer a, a refund, a full refund? If you don't like it?

• 22:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:06Guy Raz?

  For any reason?

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. So a 30 day money back guarantee.

• 22:10Guy Raz?

  So maybe you should put that also at the top of your, your site or, or where people come to you, just so they know that it's risk free. I mean, of course you don't want a bunch of, bunch of people returning them, but you're going to take a risk that maybe 5% or 2% will, will return it, but most won't.

• 22:26Speaker 02

  What we've learned is our return rate is like less than 1%. And I think it's because when people use our product, they are like, oh, this really feels good. I feel like I just went to the hygienist.

• 22:38Guy Raz?

  Yeah. But you gotta get them to take the risk. And if they don't know that right off the bat, they may not even order it. So I, I, I would suggest that you, you sort of bring that out a bit more to the fore.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I would, I would even take it a step further and say, since the, the return rate is so low, that means people try it and love it. You may want to include some kind of referral program, meaning like refer a friend, refer a family member. If I try this and I, you know, and I get my wife and my kids to buy it now, instead of one, you have four and you've given me a $20 discount on three. And the lifetime value of that person comes back very quickly because they're buying the refills. Right? So I, I would say lean in to Guy's point on the returns, but even more so, I would say add on incentives to kind of catapult your sales.

• 23:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Free pack of refills when you, when you, when you send two referrals, three referrals our way or whatever.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  That's right. I love that.

• 23:30Guy Raz?

  Bryn Snyder of Slate Flosser, um, congrats on this product. Good luck. Um, and yeah, we're going to be, I, I'm going to be using it, so I'll, I'll give you my feedback.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  I will too. Thank you, Bryn.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Awesome. Thank you so much. I love feedback.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Great. Thanks Bryn.

• 23:45Guy Raz?

  Thanks so much. I don't know about you, Andrew, but I seriously, I do feel righteous at night. That's when I floss and use the water pick and I'm like, yeah. And then I'm ready to go to bed. I'm like, yep, my teeth are really clean. I'm not going to die early, you know?

• 24:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm into a routine too. I mean, listen, my flossing routine, it's flossing. Now I'm going to use the slate flosser, but you know, it's flossing. I have the water pick too, just like you. I have this copper tongue scraper. I mean, I've gone kind of overboard with it.

• 24:14Guy Raz?

  You've got the copper tongue scraper?

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 24:17Guy Raz?

  That is next level.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  You gotta add it to your regimen.

• 24:19Guy Raz?

  Yeah, totally. I've got to add that. Okay, Andrew, we're going to take a quick break. But when we come back, we'll hear from a full-time radiologist who started a side business after a boozy golf trip. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to The Advice Line here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 28:21Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So Andrew, I think you might get a little deja vu hearing this next caller's story because it's so much like yours. Let's bring him in. Caller, hello, Turner. You are on the line.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  Hey, guys.

• 28:36Guy Raz?

  Hello, Turner.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Hey, Turner.

• 28:38Guy Raz?

  Welcome. Turner, please tell us your name, the name of your business, and where you live.

• 28:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, my name is Turner Lewis. I am founder of Four Craft Cocktails, based in Richmond, Virginia. We make golf-inspired, ready-to-drink canned cocktails for on and off the golf course.

• 28:54Guy Raz?

  Golf-inspired canned cocktails.

• 28:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 28:58Guy Raz?

  Okay, and what's your question that you brought today?

• 29:01Speaker 03

  Well, at this point, I've kind of bootstrapped the company for a couple of years and grown it pretty well, but I'm looking at outside investment. And so, having listened to your podcast, I know you waited about 10 years to do that, but I'm curious as to how you started that process, if you had anyone kind of advising you, because to me, it's very intimidating. But my marketing and sales force requirements are outgrowing my personal ability to keep up.

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Of course, and completely understandable.

• 29:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah. All right, we're going to get to your question in just a minute. Let's backtrack for a moment, and tell us a little bit about how you started. So these are canned cocktails, right?

• 29:40Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 29:40Guy Raz?

  And alcoholic cocktails?

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 29:43Guy Raz?

  Okay. And like traditional drinks, like gin and tonics and rum and coke, or what?

• 29:48Speaker 03

  Well, it started with a golf drink that we know pretty well here in Virginia called a transfusion, ironically.

• 29:56Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 29:57Speaker 03

  Ginger ale, grape juice, lime, and vodka.

• 29:59Guy Raz?

  Ginger ale, grape juice, vodka, lime?

• 30:02Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 30:03Guy Raz?

  Wow, okay. Is this like a thing that people golf know about, like everywhere?

• 30:07Speaker 03

  It's a golf drink. Kind of goes back to the Eisenhower presidency, who was a big golfer.

• 30:12Guy Raz?

  Oh, grape juice, wow. I did not know that.

• 30:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Very refreshing.

• 30:18Guy Raz?

  Grape juice is like a rare mixer in cocktails. You don't see grape juice a lot.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Not often.

• 30:24Speaker 03

  And that actually helps me out because a lot of places don't stock grape juice like Topgolf. And so my cocktail is something they can actually carry because they don't have the ingredients to make it.

• 30:33Guy Raz?

  All right. And how did this business come about? Because I think that this is not your background. You're not like a golf pro and you're not a, uh, didn't come from the beverage industry, right? What, what, what do you do? What do you do?

• 30:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, not even a good golfer actually, but um, I am actually a practicing radiologist. So.

• 30:51Guy Raz?

  Okay, amazing. Okay.

• 30:52Speaker 03

  Full time.

• 30:53Guy Raz?

  Full time radiologist. Okay, yes.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  Yep. Stuffed into a darkroom in the basement of the hospital, looking at screens all day. So like Andrew, I grew up in a household with a father who was a physician and uh, out in the, out in the country in Virginia where I grew up. My dad was the only country doc. We had an exam room in our house. I grew up kinda helping him stitch up people that came in off the fish boats in our little.

• 31:16Guy Raz?

  Wow.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Area and just, you know, people would pay him with a bushel of crabs or some corn and tomatoes. And I just fell in love with the, with the idea of being a doctor.

• 31:25Guy Raz?

  I love it. Okay. So you are a radiologist and, and how did you get into this? Like what prompted you to? Cause you have a great job. You're a, you are a respected professional. I mean, you're, I just had a shoulder thing and I love my radiologist, right? How did you get this idea?

• 31:42Speaker 03

  Yes, I was actually on a golf trip with my best friend from medical school, Potter, and we were down in Florida playing 36 holes of golf a day, which is a lot of golf for old guys like us, but.

• 31:52Guy Raz?

  That's a lot.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  The transfusion was a perfect pick me up. So you're on your 27th hole, getting a couple of fish tacos at the turn.

• 31:58Guy Raz?

  Grape juice and vodka.

• 31:59Speaker 03

  Grape juice and vodka. It just gets you through the rounds. And uh, anyway, we're fumbling around with these plastic cups and lids and straws. And I'm thinking, you know, I get a beer or a seltzer or a malt based drink in a can. Why is this not in a can? And so that was right before the COVID era. And so that idea lasted about seven minutes until I lost the next ball or whatever. And then enter COVID where. My day job slowed way down because imaging centers shut down for COVID. And you can only help homeschool the three kids for so long. So got that idea again and started having some sleepless nights about how do you produce a cocktail? How do you can it? How do you sell it?

• 32:42Speaker 03

  And I just kind of went down that rabbit hole and started it.

• 32:46Guy Raz?

  Andrew, a man after your heart, because this is like, I'm hearing so many parallels.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Lot of parallels.

• 32:51Guy Raz?

  With your story, yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty incredible. And first I want to say that, you know, Turner, congratulations on the journey and what you're doing here. And it takes, you know, a special type of courage to do what you're doing and keep your daily job and venture into beverage, which I would say is my favorite and most exciting category by far and away.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  Well, I appreciate it. I feel like, you know, it's a little bit of yin and yang where I feel like I'm doing good by day. And, you know, I'm selling alcohol by weekend or whatever. But, uh, you know, I think having that entrepreneurial spirit, I didn't know I really had it until a few years ago. And, um, once you realize you have that passion to do something different, um, it's hard to let it go. And, uh, resiliency and hard work have kind of gotten me to be able to do both. But it's like having two full-time jobs now, so.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  I'm sure, I'm sure.

• 33:42Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I bet. I mean, Andrew was a full-time resident when he launched Oregon. And so that, I mean, can't even imagine your, what your day is like. Turner, how, tell me how, I mean, this is, you launched this relatively recently. Tell us a little bit more about the business. Like, are you, are you doing over a hundred thousand dollars in sales yet? Is it, is, do you have wide distribution? Where is it available?

• 34:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, so started in 2021, uh, launched the product in May out of my garage, sort of like you, I think, Andrew. And, um, you know, my wife and I were driving it all over the state of Virginia on my days off. And when she wasn't ferrying around our three kids to sports and, um, You know, got a lucky break. Uh, got in with a distributor here in Virginia in 2022. And since then, we've grown to 10 states of distribution uh with different distributors. We've got six flavors on the market.

• 34:34Guy Raz?

  Sold in in convenience stores or?

• 34:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. So another thing I've learned, uh, you know, after the fact is how difficult the alcohol business is. So each each state has very different laws and regulations. Virginia, I'm fortunate because it's even though it's spirit based, we can sell it in grocery. So we're in Trader Joe's and Total Wine and Kroger, uh, Topgolf, places like that. Whereas the other states I'm in is more independent liquor stores, restaurants, bars. And so each state's a little different.

• 35:02Guy Raz?

  And and golf course, like golf clubhouses too and?

• 35:05Speaker 03

  That's right. Yep.

• 35:06Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 35:07Guy Raz?

  And and and how do you do you mind giving us a sense of how big the business is at at this point? Are you uh below $500,000 a year or below a million a year?

• 35:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, so I like to say we've doubled year over year. So from starting in our garage to now, we've doubled each year. We're a little shy of of half a million last year, and I think we're gonna, I just launched three new markets this spring. So I feel like it's got some potential for exponential growth and

• 35:32Guy Raz?

  Good for you.

• 35:33Speaker 03

  That makes it tricky. It's hard to predict how much to produce, how much, you know, to how much ingredients to order, how much money to put forth toward the next production run. So it is growing and I think in a pretty exponential fashion.

• 35:46Guy Raz?

  All right, let's get to your question. Um, so you wanna you're wanna think about maybe bringing on investors? Or maybe you are already having those conversations to, because you need money if you want to scale this thing. Uh, tell us a little bit more about what you're looking for.

• 36:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think at this point, like I mentioned, I've bootstrapped it to this point with, you know, kind of cash flow from the business and personal savings, the small credit line. And, you know, I think really the the the key to this business as a David versus a sea of Goliaths is having marketing. I have, you know, I'm not putting much budget other than when I'm doing Instagram ads, you know, trying to, trying to bulk that up a little bit, or I have one influencer that, that's, that's sort of, you know, I pay each month to kind of promote the brand. But I, I think the key to this brand is getting it out, getting the word out to the golfers out there to know it's, it's at the golf course or at the grocery store. And so when you're looking at raising capital, you know, obviously I've thought about friends

• 36:46Speaker 03

  and family, but I'm always nervous about losing other people's money. Thought about bringing in other investors, but that brings challenges as well. And so really I'm looking, looking to see what kind of guidance you might give to someone that's in that growth phase that has success and it's, how do, how do you do that? Because again, I'm very intimidated by that process.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:06Guy Raz?

  Andrew, you brought in investors, I think for the first time, you had investors earlier on Gary Hershberg and others, but Butterfly Equity came in in 2019, you decided to partner with them.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  That's correct.

• 37:18Guy Raz?

  How do you, how, how do you begin to evaluate these things? I mean, if you're, if you're in, you were in Turner's shoes, how should he start thinking?

• 37:25Speaker 01

  So I'd say Turner, it's, it's a very good question and I think it's important to think about it both ways, meaning what are you looking for, for an investor, from an investor and what is the investor looking at your company for and what is, what's, what's going to be the best? So the most important things I would say without question, integrity, transparency, and making sure that the investor that you bring on is going to be truly value add. In other words, you want investors that you could really trust and trust you, but you want them to be more than just a check. At, at my fund, for example, Humble Growth, like if we can't catapult the business or, you know, really progress the business in seven tangible days on day one, you shouldn't take our money, nor should we invest in you, right? So I think that value add piece is very important.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  From an investor perspective, and just to be transparent, I want to ask you some questions. Do you think it's limiting for you to be catering just to the golf community?

• 38:20Speaker 03

  That's a great question. And actually, in the first month or two of my harebrained scheme to do this, I actually was able to talk to a consultant who was an expert in the alcohol world. And he said two things. You need a million dollars to start, and golf is too narrow. I said, Well, I don't have a million dollars to start. And I think with, you know, 16,000 golf courses and 25 million rounds of golf, I feel like it's a blue ocean. I truly see it as an opportunity that maybe, maybe that's ignorance. But I also feel like if you can make a good product and brand it properly and sort of build this grassroots foundation, there's nothing that can stop it. And so I think, again, maybe that's my

• 39:04Speaker 03

  mistake. But I'm doubled down on the golf branding, thinking that golfers play golf, but they do a lot of other things, too. They go to the beach, they go to sports events, they boat. And so our product is intended for that, that market.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  I like that. I mean, look, I think it's a very good answer. The one counterbalance to that, that you're going to hear from investors is Turner, if you and I were to go fishing, and I'm going to take you to a lake that has 16,000 fish, but just down 15 miles from that lake, there's a lake that has 6 million fish, you know, where would you want to fish? And I think that, so that's referred to as total addressable market. And that's one thing as an investor, putting my investor hat on, we want to make sure the total addressable market is huge. Now, what I do like about what you're doing is that it's narrow in the sense that your marketing is very focused, you're going to be disciplined, you know you're kind of the category and what you're after. But that's one thing to keep in mind. The other thing, from an investor perspective, is they have to know the beverage realm very

• 40:04Speaker 01

  well. Distribution, sales, marketing, you said, cost of goods improvements on your ingredients, your cans. Taking it a step further, you want an investor that knows the alcoholic beverage space, is familiar with the strategics that you're going to ultimately partner with or acquire you. And I think that's the ultimate investor for you. I just want to make sure that you understand the questions that are going to come your way. And there's going to be many. And the biggest one is going to be, how big can this business get? Is there a ceiling based on what you're doing?

• 40:32Speaker 03

  Those are wonderful questions. And look, I'm the first to admit, I'm no expert. I have zero experience in alcohol, zero experience in business. So that's where I think.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Like you said, I don't want to check. I can always borrow more money, which I don't really want to do, but I need more than that. I need networking. I need that business expertise, the connectivity to be able to really grow the brand. And that's not your average investor.

• 40:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You need somebody who also loves this brand. And the other thing I would think is particularly interesting, because I think that this, like, can you turn this into a lifestyle brand, rather than just a golf lifestyle brand? And I think you can. I mean, these are nice cans, the colors are pop, the flavors are nice. You can imagine just a cooler of these at a backyard barbecue.

• 41:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, Guy, that's spot on. And I would also say, Turner, you could still market and be aggressive to the golfing community and do everything that you want. But then you open it up where this weekend, I'm having 20 friends over, and I'm going out to buy four. And no one golfs, by the way, in these 20 people that are coming over. But it doesn't matter now. And if you have that moment, or that pivot where it doesn't matter, you're going to open up into that much bigger lake. And I think then you have no ceiling, right?

• 41:50Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 41:51Speaker 03

  Well, and I like to often think about how many celebrities you see, for instance, at the ATT Pebble Beach Pro-Am. Bill Murray, Justin Timberlake, Jimmy Fallon's a big golfer. Like, these people that are doing other things, they play golf. And so it's not just the diehard golfer every Saturday on his foursome. This is the person that's going to Topgolf with their family, for instance. And he's like, I want something other than beer. I feel like, even though it's golf branded, we do have more of a slightly universal appeal. At least, that's what I tell myself.

• 42:22Guy Raz?

  Yeah. We had Gary Erickson on the show. And if you remember with Cliff Bar, he started that brand with cyclists and triathletes. You know, that was his tribe at the beginning. And of course, eventually grew into something that had mass appeal. I mean, even Oregon started something for people in hospitals, right? And now it's for athletes and people and kids and moms and all kinds of people. Similarly, I mean, you have this opportunity to build this through that tribe of golfers, but really with a vision to make it a non-golf specific product.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I've become pretty good on the USPTO. So I trademark a lot of things, one of which is drink like a golfer. So it's implying that even if you're not golfing, you can still have a cocktail when you're skiing or doing other things, right?

• 43:08Guy Raz?

  Hopefully after skiing. Hopefully when you're down the mountain.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  That's a great point. That's a great point.

• 43:16Guy Raz?

  Yeah, no drunk skiers today. Andrew, any last words of wisdom for Turner?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  No, I think Turner, you're doing an awesome job and I would encourage you to think a little bit broader and certainly bring on people. I think that the good news here is that there's a lot of people in the space that are eager for brands that are doing something special and unique. It's you, it's up to you to unlock and find that pivot, the same way the Cliff founder did, the same way I did at Oregon, the same way others are. Open that up as wide as possible and I think you'll see a lot more opportunities.

• 43:46Guy Raz?

  Turner, don't just drink like a golfer, think like a golfer.

• 43:50Speaker 03

  I love it. Can I trademark that? Do you mind if I grab that?

• 43:53Speaker 01

  It's yours.

• 43:53Guy Raz?

  Got it.

• 43:54Speaker 01

  It's yours.

• 43:54Guy Raz?

  You got it. Just send me the residuals. Turner, congrats. Thank you so much for calling in and we'll be watching.

• 44:02Speaker 03

  Thank you both. I'm humbled by this opportunity. Thank you.

• 44:05Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 44:06Guy Raz?

  Thank you. Hey, radiology into canned cocktails is pretty, pretty cool. I mean, it's not every day, Andrew, that you come across, or maybe you do, I don't know, people who are in your profession who basically make a, want to make a pivot into the world of entrepreneurship.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  I'd say it's exceedingly rare, but I think I love hearing stories like this and I think doing things that you've never done before is the most exciting thing and there's, there's growth, but there's also, you know, I would say growth and comfort never coexist, right? And you have to kind of get out of what you're accustomed to, to find that growth. So it's great to hear these stories. I love it.

• 44:44Guy Raz?

  All right, Andrew, we're going to take another quick break, but when we come back, a founder who's got their product in over 200 Target stores, but still can't get any love from investors. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and hopefully we've got the answers here on the advice line on how I built this lab.

• 45:10Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So Andrew, let's bring in our last caller. I think we've got Catherine on the line. Catherine, hello.

• 45:20Speaker 04

  Hi, how are you?

• 45:21Guy Raz?

  Catherine, welcome. Please tell us your name, the name of your business, and where you're from.

• 45:27Speaker 04

  My name is Catherine Smart. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Not Just Co. And we make really delicious, very versatile, I should say for this crowd, no sugar added, no junk added pasta sauces and salad dressings to really support busy families with a weeknight dinner juggle.

• 45:43Guy Raz?

  Nice. And where are you based? Where do you live?

• 45:45Speaker 04

  Somerville, Massachusetts.

• 45:47Guy Raz?

  Oh, cool. Nice. All right. So Catherine, what is the question you brought for us today?

• 45:52Speaker 04

  My question today is around fundraising. So my co-founder and I are raising our seed round of $1 million. And we have the first checks in. And the feedback that we're getting from a lot of investors is we love the brand, we love the product, we see the vision. Please come back when you have $2 to $5 million in sales. And we're going to do about $1 million in sales this year. We launched in 240 targets. We have nationwide distribution, strong velocities. But my question is, how do I connect with those right angel investors, family offices, maybe VCs that are interested in a company at a stage like mine? Because Andrew, I know you know that it takes capital to get from point A to point B.

• 46:28Guy Raz?

  Sure. Okay, we'll get to the question in just a moment. But a couple of questions for you. So Not Just Co., these are sauces, dressings. How did you get this idea? Tell me where it came from.

• 46:43Speaker 04

  You know, I spent my whole career as a personal chef and a food writer and a culinary instructor on television. And I realized, like, most people cannot afford a personal chef. And I just really wanted to help a wider audience get dinner done. Because, you know, I think you both are parents and know what a challenge it can be to get dinner on the table.

• 47:02Guy Raz?

  Yeah. It's not easy. Yeah, I do it every night. And it's my time to myself. But it is a lot of work. And so this is basically you decided that you wanted to create ways to make it easier for people to make dinner, but with sauces, and which really is what it's all about. Like, you can throw a piece of fish in the pan, but if you've got a good sauce on it, then you have a really good dinner.

• 47:23Speaker 04

  See, you know that guy, but a lot, a lot of folks don't. So the actual, our flagship product is called our 10 veggie, not just pasta sauce. And it actually came about because I had this personal chef client with a farm share. And every week I'm like, how do I turn this box of vegetables into something the whole family is going to love? So it started as a sauce for spaghetti meatballs. It was like, oh, this is a shakshuka base. This is an enchilada topper. I can throw it in an instant pot. And so I cornered my co-founder when she was six months pregnant. After cooking class, we taught together and said, what if we put this in a jar and made more of these kind of meal starting sauces?

• 47:56Guy Raz?

  And, and Catherine, what, um, tell me, like, how are you, um, how did you initially finance this? Did you just kind of bootstrap it? Or did you raise a little bit of money from friends and family?

• 48:08Speaker 04

  Yes, it was a combination. So we actually started back in 2018, but at that point, my co-founder and I were working nights and weekends. We were putting sauce runs on credit cards. We were delivering sauce to, uh, local specialty food shops. Uh, eventually I convinced some of my personal chef clients to put in the first money. And that was a really hilarious pitch, right? Like, give me your money so I can stop making you dinner and go do something else. Uh, but they were supportive and really great. And we have raised 1.7 million to date. So, uh, that we were able to create our first five SKUs. We gained distribution. Um, but we're at a point now with the growth, um, that we need to raise, that we need to raise again.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Um, so question for you, Catherine, as, as you're thinking about the business, um, one of the most important thing for investors is to understand the use of proceeds. Meaning if we're going to invest capital into your brand, how exactly are you going to use the capital and in what way?

• 49:00Speaker 04

  So we're looking to raise a million dollars. I think we have about half of that left to go. Um, the primary place that that's going is supporting our recent, uh, retail growth and distribution. So a lot of it is going to marketing. We, our growth has been a hundred percent organic until now. There is also some production, um, but the day-to-day business supports most of the payroll. And it really is just able to take advantage of these retail opportunities that we won't be able to, um, unless we're able to support them.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Got it. So Catherine, curious just to understand a little bit more about the business. Where is, where are your biggest sales today? Is it online? Is it in the stores today or?

• 49:37Speaker 04

  It's in the stores today. So we do have a direct-to-consumer business, but shipping glass across the country. Uh, we learned pretty early on, back then we were bootstrapping, that our stronger velocities and interests were actually on shelf. So. We do a lot of sales through Target in the 240 doors which are across the country. And then we're also in a lot of grocery stores like Central Market and Nugget, kind of regional chains in the natural grocery channel.

• 50:02Guy Raz?

  And how are they doing? How, I mean, you know, you're on a shelf at Target or elsewhere with seven to 10 to 15 to 25 other brands. How, how are, I mean, you mentioned, you know, your sales so far. How are you getting this in front of consumers?

• 50:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it is a challenge because we have, we don't have a massive budget, but we have, as I mentioned, we raised money previously. And we find that works really, what works really well for us is a high-low promotion strategy. So people love our products and once they try them, they come back and buy them again. So for instance, we just ran our first promotion at Target and saw 300% lift in sales. There was places where 10 jars were flying off the shelf in one week, which when you're not a salty snack or a beverage, that means something. That being said, we have to be really judicious and capital efficient because we're not Rayo's or one of those larger brands.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think what you just said, Catherine, goes a very long ways. And I think it's step one, one of the most important things you can do in looking to raise money is craft that compelling story, right? So as an investor, investors all, they want to understand your vision, of course, the market opportunity and how it's differentiated. But they also want to know exactly how you're going to use the money and what it's going to do to catapult the brand, right? So a concise and compelling pitch deck that highlights your brand's uniqueness and the fact that this is how you're going to use the money and you're going to get to this stage, that goes a very long way. So I would say that's number one, like show your traction. What you just described, showcase your achievements, your, your distribution, your velocities, your margins. All of those things I think are critical and that's the base and the foundation.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  And then as you go out, I think, think of it a lot like, a lot of people say finding money is difficult and it absolutely is, but it comes a little bit easier if you go out there and you date as many people or as many investors as you can. You're getting out in front of family offices, you're getting in front of the angels. So like networking events, pitch competitions, which there are many now, right? Joining angel investor groups to kind of build relationships. And I could, I'm happy to send you some so that helps. But getting out in front of as many investors as possible, I think will go a very long way.

• 52:10Guy Raz?

  Andrew, tell me a little bit about the, I mean, just anecdotally, I'm hearing that the The the funding opportunities are are harder now, you know, for a variety of reasons, especially around consumer and especially in food. Doesn't mean that that isn't money. It doesn't mean it's not available. There is money. But is is that true or is that just kind of, you know, mythology that you hear people talking about?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  No, I'd say I'd say it's accurate, Guy. It is. It is a bit more difficult today for sure. I mean, a few years ago, there's investors throwing money at anything and everything. That has since corrected. So I think investors are looking for a sound business that's on the road to profitability that shows those velocities. It's one thing to get into a thousand stores, but it matters more to investors to be in a hundred stores and sell the daylights out of those shelves. Right? So I think it's just a little bit different mindset. Investors are being more cautious and more prudent. So you have to keep that in mind as you proceed with investors.

• 53:07Guy Raz?

  What I like about this product is the branding, that the design is so nice.

• 53:11Speaker 01

  Very clean.

• 53:12Guy Raz?

  So clean. It reminds me of like Crate and Barrel. It's just very clean and you can see the you can see the ingredients inside. But in order to get people to try it, right, Andrew, what what I mean, with limited money, with limited funds, because they're not going to be able to hire 400 different, you know, samplers and stores around the country, what are ways to get people to just taste it, to try the pasta sauce or the salad dressing?

• 53:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, today we live in a digital focused world and you're in the best category for that. People are eager for recipes for food, to see it from chefs, to see it from moms that have five kids and don't have time for things. I think in your case, Catherine, you have a very interesting opportunity to partner with a lot of micro influencers. I'm not talking about the expensive celebrities that have millions of followers. I'm talking about that parent of four that has no time and is looking to find a great recipe but has 10,000 super engaged followers. I think that's how you get more and more people to try your product because they're going to follow the people they trust.

• 54:14Guy Raz?

  Are you doing any of that, Catherine?

• 54:16Speaker 04

  I'm nodding sort of ferociously here because we literally just launched our micro influencer campaign.

• 54:22Guy Raz?

  Awesome.

• 54:23Speaker 04

  And we're actually looking to connect with more. So that's something we're absolutely doing.

• 54:26Guy Raz?

  You know, I think about, I mean, of course influencers have a huge impact on products. And I think about, there's a brand called Grazza. Grazza Grazza. It's an olive oil brand. You see it everywhere. You knew this, right? It's amazing, Andrew, like that you knew this. It's a relatively new product and brand. And they've just gone everywhere. I think that whatever playbook they used, and maybe they raised a bunch of money, I don't know, but it's been really effective. And I think that there are things to learn about that. I don't know if it's, it's certainly not so easy. But it seems like they worked with certain types of influencers to get that product in front of people's eyes.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I would, I would add to that guy and say, because I was fascinated by that brand because more and more people that didn't use olive oil are using it now. And I think there's a convenience form factor. Catherine, you talked about earlier, glass is very hard to ship and that's very true. But I think there's a major unlock for you. Amazon for us is a major business. It's huge. And I think it's a major opportunity for you. I was looking prior to our call, the number one selling pasta sauce on Amazon is in a 45 ounce plastic jar, right? I'm not, that may compromise the product, but taking a page out of the book of Grazza is maybe you can eventually have something, a different form factor. Maybe you don't do it today, but something for investors to show,

• 55:46Speaker 01

  we are going to revolutionize the way this is shipped and the way this is stored and the way this is used. So people are using a lot more of our sauce. I'm not saying that's the concept, but you have to think like that for the next investor unlock.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 55:58Guy Raz?

  I mean, it would, it wouldn't be as beautiful in the jar form, but maybe a tetrapack, for example, that's not plastic.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  And maybe there's an online strategy and an in retail strategy. And what's nice about that is you have your price pack architecture where it's different prices and they're not fighting with each other. So I love that idea. And I think it's something that could be a major unlock for you, something to keep in the back of your mind.

• 56:19Speaker 04

  One other quick question that I had for you both is, you know, as I said earlier, taste and, taste and nutrition are really table stakes for us. But what I think is our real differentiator is the versatility of the sauce. I mentioned I was a personal chef and that's how I use the sauces, the great for a grain bowl, for a marinade. There's so many ways to use them, but educating the consumer on that can be challenging. And I'm curious, you both have such incredible creative minds. How would you suggest that I focus on that education piece?

• 56:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, today it's a QR code, right? And that you also have kind of on your bottle, you say different things on the front of it. Maybe it's a starter for a chili or shakshuka or things like that that I saw in the jar, which I thought was smart. So I think one question that I have for you, back to you, Catherine, is it confusing at all for consumers as they see your product as not just pasta sauce? That maybe it's actually something that might be not helpful? Or do you see that it's super helpful?

• 57:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's interesting. The feedback was a little mixed. But as the business has grown, what we've heard is people pick us up as a pasta sauce. And then, once they engage with the brand, they start playing with these different ways to use it. And that's been the same with buyers. At first, there was some hesitancy. And then there was sort of a lightbulb moment. But I still feel like we could be doing a lot more with that in order to just benefit our customers and, of course, increase velocities even more for us.

• 57:36Guy Raz?

  I wonder if there's a way, without being too, without throwing too much stuff on there, and maybe QR code is one, one, one solution, that instead of just saying, "start a chili" or "simmer shakshuka", you literally say, "crack two eggs in this", or, you know, "pour it over a piece of roasted salmon", or just something where people are like, "Oh, yeah, okay, great. I'm gonna get some salmon and I'll do that."

• 57:58Speaker 04

  We just need your voice to say it, Guy.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would help a lot. That was perfect. The other thing that I was thinking too, Catherine, is like, I, you know, putting those, the veggies that are in there. I think that's very differentiating and very unique, right? But it's something that you kind of have to discover and, and know and turn the back. I think leading with that maybe could help. The other thing is like, use 10 veggies. It should also be 10 veggies, 10 uses. Meaning like, leverage what you're already pushing on and use that front of pack. And I think that's going to help with value and people will get it right away. And you could distill that down to the right marketing language, but I think there's something there.

• 58:32Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 58:33Guy Raz?

  For sure. For sure. Catherine, smart, not just company. Good luck. Congrats. It's awesome.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, congratulations, Catherine.

• 58:42Speaker 04

  Thank you. Thank you so much.

• 58:44Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, golden beets, carrots, there's all kinds of things in here, Andrew.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  All kinds of goodness in there. You gotta bring that to the front sometimes, yeah.

• 58:52Guy Raz?

  Gotta bring that to the front, yeah. Andrew, thank you so much for coming back onto the show. It's been amazing having you.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Always an honor for me, Guy. Thank you for inviting me.

• 59:02Guy Raz?

  Thanks for sharing your wisdom and advice. Great advice, super, super valuable. By the way, if you haven't heard the story of Oregon, Andrew's incredible story, really. I mean, I'm just going to say it. One of the best episodes of How I Built This ever. So good.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Thank you, Guy.

• 59:18Guy Raz?

  Go back and check it out. You can find it on your podcast. We will put a link in the description, show description. And thank you, of course, for listening to our advice line this week. If you are working on a business and you would like to be on the show, please send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions or challenges that you'd like help with. And of course, make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or you can call 1-800-433-1298 and leave a message there. And again, we'll put all of this in the show notes. And we'll see you back here next week. Thanks. And thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

• 59:59Guy Raz?

  This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Sina LaFredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Mancini, Elaine Coats, Jaycee Howard, Catherine Seifer, Kerry Thompson, Malia Agudelo, Niva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line on How I Built This Lab.