The 3 Relationship Habits Every Couple Should Steal

Olympic gold medalist Shawn Johnson East and former NFL player Andrew East join me for a conversation about marriage, conflict, ambition, and what it really takes to stay committed when life gets hard. We talk about the communication habits they’ve had to unlearn, the systems and check-ins that help keep their marriage strong, and why most people quit too early when things stop feeling easy. This episode is about learning how to grow through the uncomfortable parts instead of running from them—and why commitment might be the thing that gives life the most meaning. Buy their new book, The Courage to Commit https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/787062/the-courage-to-commit-by-shawn-johnson-and-andrew-east/ Leave me a voicemail to be featured on the show! https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/ask-jefferson Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. Mill. Try risk-free for 90 days and get $75 off at https://www.mill.com/jefferson and use code JEFFERSON at checkout. ZocDoc. https://zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. Today, my guests are Olympic gold medalist Shawn Johnson and ex NFL pro Andrew East, a husband and wife couple that are not only a power couple, obviously. They're just some of the nicest, most down-to-earth people I've ever met. And so it's just a true pleasure. We get to talk all things relationships and my marriage, their marriage, and the things that they do to set themselves up for success. If you want to have the courage to commit, which is the name of their latest book, if you want to have strategies for building a better life and a better marriage, well, then some things you need to have in place. We talk all about the structure. How do you create cadences to check in with each other? How do you set goals? All of that and more. I hope you enjoy it.

• 1:12Jefferson Fisher?

  What I have enjoyed a lot since moving up here and then hearing about y'all is that you're just good people. Like you're just salt of the earth, good people. So I'm going to put that out there. It's all a lie. Yeah, it's all a lie. Even though, even though I know y'all are human and you're married and know that you have just as much problems as anybody else, like we're all figuring it out. It's like when somebody says, like, well, you just know all the communication stuff. And I'm like, if you only, if you only, if you only knew. I can't wait like for Sierra sometimes. If she was here, she'd be like, hey, you remember that time? You been in that argument?

• 1:54Jefferson Fisher?

  And then she's, she's like, okay, communication guy. So it can come back to bite you. But I'm, what I'm curious about, so you have an Olympian, a pro NFL, pro athlete.

• 2:07Jefferson Fisher?

  There has to be this aspect of like your whole life has been perfection and knowing and controlling all the variables. So I see like control being a pretty big thing if you go controlling my, from my diet to my practice to my routine. And then you marry somebody whom you can't control at all. And then you make other humans that you definitely can't control.

• 2:28Speaker 02

  Can't control them.

• 2:29Jefferson Fisher?

  So how is that, how is that played out in y'alls marriage? Cause I think y'all coming up on what 10 years?

• 2:36Speaker 02

  10 years.

• 2:36Jefferson Fisher?

  That's incredible.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  It's been a journey for sure. And I feel like there's been an arc to it from the beginning.

• 2:44Jefferson Fisher?

  An arc?

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Where we both came out of our professional careers expecting to control everything and going to the complete opposite where I think both of us coming out of gymnastics and football had a really hard time with the transition because your entire life is basically controlled for you. And then all your people leave, your coaches, your dietitians, your psychiatrist, like anything with the professional world. And so you're left to do it all on your own.

• 3:13Jefferson Fisher?

  It's just you.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  And you don't know what you're doing. And we benefited from going through those transitions at different times. So we could kind of support each other, but it's kind of been building from the ground up from there with our marriage and babies learning how to build an infrastructure to feel like we have control again, but very loosely because we can't control each other.

• 3:37Jefferson Fisher?

  So we're, we're looking and talking to like year 10 couple. Let's go back to like year two couple. Like how does, how was that in terms of control for you, Andrew of like, hey, I want to do what I want to do. And I'm, I'm used to this kind of routine, but there's a lot of this give and take that you're, you're living with somebody.

• 3:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Uh, I think, you know, people will say that marriage goes in phases and one of the phases is like the power struggle phase, which is, which is super interesting because we got married pretty young and I'm, I'm really grateful for that.

• 4:10Jefferson Fisher?

  How old were you?

• 4:11Speaker 02

  24.

• 4:12Speaker 03

  24.

• 4:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay. We were, we were 22 and 21.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Yay. Great.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'm grateful to have been married young though, because you know, the whole teaching an old dog new tricks.

• 4:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 4:23Speaker 03

  Doesn't, it, it's, it's a little easier when you're younger to say, okay, what is my rhythm of life? And you know, we're just transitioning out of the college years. So we're kind of establishing our rhythms together. But there was a lot of conflict and it is confusing. You're like, okay, what's the right way to progress here? I want to be a good husband. I don't know what that means though. I want to like, I want to, you know, I want to share my perspective while also respecting hers and that the marriage of the two styles and perspectives is a really difficult process. We're still in the midst of it, by the way. Every phase, every new child, there's always something changing.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  But it was, it was really fun to just say, hey, actually, none of us need to be in control. We're a team and you have some beautiful things that you bring to the table and beautiful styles that we should incorporate. And so do I. And then let's just like, we'll just do a little dance with it all, you know? We'll figure it out.

• 5:23Jefferson Fisher?

  I think Sean was right. It's a journey. It's been a journey. Yeah. So I'm curious for each of you, what was a communication pattern that you almost had to unlearn? Once y'all, I feel like you just, I feel like Andrew just looked at me like, you dog.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  There's a lot.

• 5:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  There's a lot. We, we decided to take on a lot when we got married.

• 5:51Speaker 03

  That doesn't sound like that's in y'all's nature at all.

• 5:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  We went into business together. We became like 50 50 business partners, newlyweds. Andrew was bouncing around the country with the NFL. I was bouncing around the country on a tour with gymnastics. There was like, we, we did everything probably wrong, but communication that we had to unlearn. We're both very ambitious and we're very driven and we're very stubborn. And learning that we both can't be in the driver's seat at the same time, I think was really hard. I came into our marriage basically running my own company. And Andrew came in with all of the ideas and all of the ambition to, to lead.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  And for us, our communication skills had to work. And we had to really unlearn how to both take a step back and kind of start something new instead of saying this is mine or this is my idea and we're going to do it. And it was very difficult. I mean, we're, we're still. We're still unlearning that.

• 6:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, first of all, if you're listening to this and you have not read Jefferson's book called The Next Conversation, it is, it's so good.

• 7:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Thanks, man.

• 7:08Speaker 03

  And I'm so grateful to have read it. I learned so much in that. One of the things, a concept in there that a mentor of ours shared years ago was anytime they'd get in an argument, they'd, they'd almost remind each other that we know how this ends and that's with us still married. And so that's, I think that's been a helpful kind of North Star guiding concept of like, hey, we are, like, we're on the same team and this is going to be to our benefit. We just have to figure out how to get there. I, one communication pattern that I had to unlearn was my dad was a, like, would, he loved, he was a dreamer

• 7:49Speaker 03

  and he loved doing any opportunity that he can get his hands on, but he wouldn't necessarily communicate at all to my mom. So he would just like, go do his, he would go do his thing. And then it would be like a ask for forgiveness, not permission situation, which, you know, Sean reminded me that I need to do a better job at that even last week. So it's, it's more of the considering on the front end and like saying, hey, what do you think about this? Was just not, not something that I had too many reps at when we were younger. So.

• 8:20Jefferson Fisher?

  I think the, I like the steering wheel analogy, like who's going to be in the driver's seat because there are people listening to this and I mean, we're, look at us right now. You have different, we're all different individuals and we all have individual ambitions. Then how do you also have the collective ambition? So do y'all do anything collectively to say, this is kind of the goal setting we want?

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:49Jefferson Fisher?

  All right, let's hear it.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  This is my favorite.

• 8:52Speaker 02

  When was the first year we did the goal setting?

• 8:54Jefferson Fisher?

  2018.

• 8:55Speaker 02

  Okay, 2018.

• 8:56Jefferson Fisher?

  You wanna call it goal setting?

• 8:57Speaker 02

  Uh, yes. Annual, yeah, goal setting.

• 9:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, we need a cooler name than that.

• 9:02Speaker 03

  We called it like vision casting at one point.

• 9:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Nice.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  You gave it some names.

• 9:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Not good for the podcast, yeah, yeah.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  You called it, there was a mind map and I don't know, there were many names. I would just say goal setting. But in 2018, we were living in Washington. He was playing for the Washington football team. Life was beautiful, like it was wonderful and we were having a blast. But we sat down and decided to do this goal setting, which we came up kind of out of nowhere. Andrew's dad the year before had kind of given us this

• 9:39Speaker 02

  layout of goal setting. Or it had all these different categories with philanthropy and faith and family. And we basically took that, which we didn't do the year prior, and said, let's actually do this this year, kind of for fun. And I remember we sat down at a coffee shop for five hours and wrote down everything we wanted our life to look like. And we thought it was fascinating that both of us, at the end of it, looked down and it was completely different than the life we had.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Which is odd because our life was wonderful. We weren't upset and we weren't sad and we weren't, you know, unhappy, but it's not what we wanted.

• 10:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:18Speaker 02

  And so that kind of sparked the start of, every year, we do these big goal settings where we write our individual goals, our goals together, and then we put them all together to make sure that I know how to support Andrew, he knows how to support me, we know how to make time for everything that feels important to each of us. And then we do check-ins every week, every month, every quarter, to make sure we're kind of headed in the right direction.

• 10:42Jefferson Fisher?

  So what do check-ins look like? Week to week?

• 10:45Speaker 03

  So, this has been huge for me. Cause I, I think I get really, uh, I, I take things personal and like she can hurt my feelings if, if she gives me some type of feedback or is trying to hold me accountable to one of these goals. But what we've done and what the goal-setting system has helped us do is like, it's almost have, having a third party in the room. That's like this neutral third party.

• 11:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Objective.

• 11:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so when Sean gives me feedback,

• 11:13Speaker 03

  it is It's more referring to this third party and not referring directly to me. It's like, hey, remember when we did this and you, it's here on the paper that we wanted to go on 52 date nights a year. Whatever. And we haven't gone on one in like the last three weeks. And it's like, as opposed to me getting defensive. Yeah. And saying, well, it's because of whatever excuse. Exactly. It's more like, oh yeah, you're right. That like, we are dropping the ball on that. But the check-ins also help with, with not taking things personal because it's, it's in the future, you talk about this in your book, like even if it's a 30 minute break. Yeah. Like having something that's on the calendar that I know might be an uncomfortable conversation

• 11:56Speaker 03

  that maybe she'll give some, some personal feedback to me on. I can kind of prepare it for that. And I know that I can come in with my guard down and she can come in having thought about the, the, the criticism and likewise. Uh, and it's like way more of a healthy conversation. It's way less emotional. It's more of like a, hey, I've noticed this pattern over the last couple of days. Yeah. Of us not living up to what we said we wanted to. And what are some ways we could change that? And it's been so, it has been so helpful and actually inspiring change. Cause like instead of me just feeling offended, we're like, oh yeah, actually you're right. And I'm sorry. And, um, it's a, it's a humbling process to have to like, take it off the chin and say,

• 12:40Speaker 03

  okay, you're right, I dropped the ball, but let's, uh, let's change some things. What has been so good for us. Yeah. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. Everything that Cozy Earth does is premium quality apparel and home bedding. So anything that they, they put out, I have been a huge fan of. I know they have over 30,000 five star reviews. So from furniture to bedding, bedding is a big thing in our house. I didn't know that when I first became an adobe bedding is a very big thing. And for several years now, we've been using Cozy Earth on our bed. It's because those sheets are bamboo and they're the coziest, most comfortable thing. And they're light. I'm a, I'm a hot sleeper and they keep me cool. So if you're a hot sleeper like me and you like cozy, comfortable sheets, go to cozyearth.com

• 13:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Jefferson, use the Go Jefferson for up to 20% off. You will not regret it. They also have a 100 night sleep trial warranty. So how can you beat that? 100 nights. Cozy Earth.com slash Jefferson, use the Go Jefferson for up to 20% off. Let's keep going. The check-ins, I want to visualize them. Is it just y'all sitting in at the kitchen? Is it in bed? Is it five minutes? Is it two minutes? And I know they all look different.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  We have different cadences for each thing.

• 13:50Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  That sounds strange. Annual goal setting is anywhere from four to six hours and it can't be in our house.

• 13:59Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  So it has to be like intentional. We have to go somewhere. We block off time. There's no phones and we do it for like four to six hours. Weekly, what would you, what would we call the weekly?

• 14:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Sunday, Sunday night.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Every, every Sunday night before we go to bed, after the kids go down, we talk about the entire next week. And that's like logistical planning. So that's at home, obviously, just at the kitchen table, talking through, does the week look good? Does it look like there's enough time for you to feel like your cup is filled than me? Is, does it look balanced and does it, do we feel like we're on the same page? And then every month, we do monthly check-ins. Monthly check-in, can't be at home. It has to be at some neutral ground. So it's usually a coffee shop.

• 14:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 14:46Speaker 02

  And that's where, for lack of a better way to say it, we can bring, bring our grievances to the table and we're both prepared for it. So it's kind of like, what are your three check-ins or three things I can work on this month? That have been either bothering you or.

• 15:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Things you've noticed.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  And I say that to say, we still bring stuff up on a daily basis or weekly basis. You're not like harboring them for monthly check-ins. But that's where we can both come around the table and say, ah, I don't think this is feeling good. I don't think the rhythm of this habit that we've implemented, I like how we don't talk about the kids, like everything. It's kind of an unloading and that's usually a half hour, hour.

• 15:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, it's not. I mean, it depends on the season of life we're in.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Sometimes we're like, I got nothing.

• 15:32Jefferson Fisher?

  But there are people who might listen to this and go, that sounds nuts.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:36Jefferson Fisher?

  It's not nuts. Like, that's, I think, what we're about to talk about. That, that is committing to saying, if this is my north star, this is my goal. And that's what, then that's exactly what it takes. Like, for me and Sierra, you know, we have, we, we like morning chickens and evening chickens. And what I have learned really helps her in the day is when we talk logistics of that day. She, we like to talk about, you know, how we're feeling, which is harder for me than it is for her. Cause I can kind of, you know, lay out stuff and she goes, okay, you just tell me what you're doing. You didn't tell me how you feel about it. Or you told me what you did. You didn't tell me how you felt about it. I was like, okay.

• 16:19Speaker 03

  Bro, the self-awareness of like putting a word to your emotion.

• 16:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But I've heard Jill say too of like, your feelings.

• 16:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:25Jefferson Fisher?

  And he's facts, you know, and I think that's just, you have to appreciate some aspect of that in some sense. And then it third is she, we both like to hear kind of what's God doing in your life right now. Like, where do you, what did you notice throughout the day that you're kind of working on? So we, but we haven't done the monthlies. I think the monthlies is, is a good one that we're gonna add. My, my grandparents do this thing, or they do an annual contract. So they write it out of like what they're agreeing to. And they'll like amend it from year to year of like, actually, you're gonna be doing this. I'm gonna be doing this. And it's like, do you want to go another round? Like, that's, yep. And so they're able to like point to the contract. But yeah, they have like a little contract retreat.

• 17:07Jefferson Fisher?

  That they, that they do. And it's like, well, you might be thinking this sounds a lot. But if you want your marriage to be a good marriage, it's, it's hard to do these, these little things.

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, we, we, um, I love the morning and night check-in. We, when we had our second child, we realized that there's so many tasks to do that.

• 17:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  That you just kind of get overwhelmed. The next thing you do, you're like, you know, we're, we're just ships in the night, as people say. And you're, you're not actually stopping and looking each other in the eye and connecting. And that, I mean. It it can really make you feel lonely. And so we started what we call bev time, where it's like, we'll put the kids down. And the first thing, the first thing we do, it was because we were drinking wine back, back then in the day. But, but we used to put the kids down and then like, jump on our phones. And then it's like, yeah, there was this feeling of, wow, I really wanted to connect. And I, my, my goal here with this marriage, if I zoom out, is like, to, to be fully known and fully loved. You know what I'm saying?

• 18:10Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  And we're not really doing that on a day to day basis. It doesn't feel like, so we started this time where it's like, kids go down and we have anywhere from five minutes to forty five minutes every night. Where we're just like, talking, debriefing, like, tell me about all the things that happened. Cause that is a beautiful part about marriage, where like, you're a witness of someone else's life. And like, all the little highs and lows in the day, it's beautiful. Your front row seat, man, like, I want to hear. I used to be, when I was younger, like, so obsessed with like, getting things done, being productive, being efficient. And so those kind of conversations just felt like, forgive me, but like, unnecessary. Cause, I don't know, I didn't, I didn't see the bigger picture, but now I see how beautiful and colorful that makes life.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  And I would just love, we get somewhat criticized because people will say, well, doesn't that come across as too structured? And you're losing the spontaneity in life and like, the, the whimsical romance. When you have all these structures and check ins and these systems and goals. And, and in my mind, I would like to be as strategic with my family life, my marriage, as I am in business.

• 19:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:20Speaker 03

  Because I know, like, everyone talks about, hey, what's our five year plan in business? And what are our values? And what are, what are our thirty day goals or ninety day goals?

• 19:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  I, at the very least, I want to do that same thing for my marriage. Cause it's like, it's like, um, a display of effort to some capacity. And I know that if I don't have those structures or, or systems in place, I resort to.

• 19:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Being immature and irresponsible with my free time. I'll jump on my phone, I'll turn on Netflix, I'm scrolling and then you're like, you know, fast forward five years, you're like, wait, I missed the whole point. Right. I missed it all. Yeah, life is lived well when it's built well. Yeah, and I think that's the same thing for, for marriage. Yeah, it can be rigid, but like a good piece of furniture. Like you gotta have good bones on it or it's gonna be hard to, hard to sit in, I think. So I, I'm, I'm all about that kind of, that kind of setup. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Mill. Now Mill has been in our kitchen. Now, it looks like a trash can. It is not, alright? It's the thing that changes the way your kitchen is going to run.

• 20:29Jefferson Fisher?

  We've had it now for probably eight months. Not only does the whole family love it, my kids love it. What is Mill? Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler that handles the cleanup after dinner is over. So what does that mean? When you have a plate that's your kind of leftovers and you have scraps, you just scrape it down into the mill and overnight the mill turns it into grounds, shelf-stable grounds. And it's awesome. It doesn't smell. We thought it was gonna smell, it doesn't. We thought it was gonna be loud, it was not. Like every thought, we were like, ah, it's totally covered. And the packaging is awesome. Let me just tell you, you know a company's gonna be good when their packaging is, is awesome. So I would say the thing that surprised me the most about Mill is just how well,

• 21:14Jefferson Fisher?

  top to bottom, the product has worked. We've been really, really happy with it. Also, I didn't really consider how good it would feel to know that your decision of not adding to a bunch of waste is helping, helping the environment. In fact, Mill has already helped divert over 15 million pounds of food. That's a lot of food and that's a lot of good that we're doing for the world. So try Mill risk-free for 90 days and get $75 off at mill.com/jefferson and use code Jefferson at checkout. That's $75 off at mill.com/jefferson, use code Jefferson. That's mill.com/jefferson, use code Jefferson. And now, let's keep going. And I want to make sure, and this is one of the reasons why I wanted to, to bring y'all to

• 22:00Jefferson Fisher?

  my community and audiences because of the book that y'all have coming out, which the fact that y'all have written this together. If I can give you all the props for that, first off, it's called the courage to commit. Embrace the radical power of sticking with something. And I thought, man, how incredible because so many times when we kind of absorb marriage advice, relationship advice, we're always looking for, I think you said before, like the hack, like we're looking for that, what's that one little nugget that's just gonna magically change everything? When the truth is the hack is the commitment.

• 22:41Jefferson Fisher?

  It is choosing to commit regardless of, in spite of knowing full well that that's what's gonna make all the difference. So tell me, when you think of the courage to commit, how have y'all made that in your own? Have you made that happen in your own life?

• 22:59Speaker 02

  By everything we just talked about.

• 23:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Truly like working through it and working through all the problems. And I feel like it, I feel like everybody knows it, right? Everybody knows that to be an elite athlete, you have to commit to a sport and you have to work through the hard days and the grind and like, that's a very stereotypical story you hear and people know about it. We had gone through that and we had lived through that. And yet we still found ourselves with certain things saying,

• 23:34Speaker 02

  we just need to go find, you know, the next thing to make us happy and that's gonna fix the problem.

• 23:39Jefferson Fisher?

  The next thing.

• 23:40Speaker 02

  Instead of saying, you know what? Let's just work through the really uncomfortable valley. And if we can get through it, let's see what's on the other side. And there were so many times in our life with business and with our kids and even with our marriage, and there still will be, we haven't mastered anything by any means, but we've, I think we're, we're starting to see the through line. But it seemed like every time we did that, we kind of hunkered down and said, let's figure it out. Let's get through this roadblock. It just became better and more fruitful and more joyful, more purposeful on the other side. And I think even in our marriage,

• 24:23Speaker 02

  whenever it starts to get hard, it's like, okay, I'm not going to avoid it. We're actually gonna confront it and we're gonna figure out how to work through it and we're gonna find.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  I don't know, just we're just gonna keep chugging along.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. There was a point in my life after I finished playing football. It's hard to transition out of athletics because it's so intense and there's there's such an infrastructure, like Sean was saying, of coaches and nutritionists and your workout plan, your diet, your friend group. All of it is in this like really intense orbit of athletics. And you leave it and you're like, I don't have anybody to hang out with. I don't know what to do with my time. And in that weird phase, after I was done playing, I realized that I was I was really struggling, not because I had chosen anything wrong. It was just because I wasn't making a choice at all. And and like I needed to do something. I needed to take the next step, but I was so paralyzed by trying to analyze which choice is the best,

• 25:21Speaker 03

  when really there was a ton of good choices and it was up to me to like make one good choice, the great choice. And all I needed to do was like go with one and walk down that path. And so we're definitely not writing this book as experts. Like Sean said, it's more of an, you know, we're students along with the readers. And it was really fun to kind of revisit some of the stories in our life, where we had done this well and done it poorly. But I it's so easy, especially, you know, in any life transition to get excited by the new thing or the better thing. And I would love for the takeaway from this book to be that like,

• 26:04Speaker 03

  hey, the the maintenance costs are probably going to be lower than the startup costs. So like, don't, don't be always jumping, looking for the next new thing. Just like, what if you just stuck to this thing, put your head down and understood that there's, there's valleys, there's peaks. And when you, when you accumulate all those, you build this deep meaning at the end of this, when you're like, you've committed to one thing, whether that be a career, a relationship, a hobby, whatever. It's like really beautiful and and it leads to this journey that I think has has brought so much fruit to our life.

• 26:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Sierra said something once we were in an argument.

• 26:44Speaker 03

  Really?

• 26:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I don't know. You don't know anything about that. And I was had gotten kind of down about it. You know, just the old bad scripts of like, just hard to see the positive side.

• 27:00Jefferson Fisher?

  And what she said, well, she said, well, either way, it's good. Like, can we get to a place where it's either way, it's good? And then that really just hit me square in the face. And I feel like this book, The Courage to Commit, really touches on that type of mentality of, one, it takes courage. Second of all, it's committing to the goal, to the marriage, to a relationship, knowing that there will be failures, knowing that there is going to be the low valleys and you're going to see the raw, the ugly, the, I can't believe this. But at the same time, you get to learn so much more about this person.

• 27:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Because I feel like sometimes, the mistake I made early on, I've made lots, is, is

• 27:52Jefferson Fisher?

  thinking selfishly of the impact to myself, rather than trying to appreciate the difference in the personality of how she interprets it, how she handles it. Like, what can I learn about this personality and this human and this person that I love, rather than the, making it a zero sum, like grabbing the steering wheel back? Because you can really do that in conflict, too.

• 28:21Jefferson Fisher?

  For two people that are used to high pressure and, like you said, stubborn. And, because I'm sure only one of y'all is.

• 28:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Don't look at me. It's, it's, you can, you can get in the habit of grabbing the steering wheel in conflict, too. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Zocdoc. Now, if you're listening, most likely, you have some kind of doctor's appointment, dentist appointment of some type that you know you need to be scheduling, but you haven't yet. Because that was me, all right? Mine was dermatologist. I know with my family history and skin cancer, I should be going to a dermatologist. That was one of those appointments that I just kept. Putting off. Well, Zocdoc changed all of that is a free app that not only helps you set an appointment and make sure that those providers are in-network. So we're talking

• 29:11Jefferson Fisher?

  about booking in-network appointments with more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. So whether you're looking for dermatology, like me, dentistry, primary care, eye care, or one of the other 200 specialties offered by Zocdoc, you can easily search by specialty or symptom to build the care team that's right for you. Finding and booking high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone that you love. You will be able to see all their patient reviews, how they handle things, and the best thing is Zocdoc will actually set the appointment for you. So that's awesome. And I'm a big fan. I'm personally a big fan of anything that removes friction from doing something really important, like setting a doctor's appointment. So stop putting off those doctors' appointments and go to zocdoc.com/jefferson

• 29:56Jefferson Fisher?

  to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That is z-o-c-d-o-c.com/jefferson, zocdoc.com/jefferson. Now, let's keep going. Knowing that in marriage, you're going to have conflict, how do you handle it with this mindset of having the courage to commit?

• 30:17Speaker 02

  I think I might answer this in a different way, but one of the hardest parts about writing this book was taking the joy and the purpose and the fruit of all the hard work we've put in so far, and then backtracking and explaining how we got here. And so I think to answer your question, we, over the course of 10 years, have had such a privilege of failing miserably at arguments and indecisiveness and business failures. We've had such the privilege of every time that's happened, we've tried to go find what we're used to, which is like a really good coach, a really good mentor, a really good therapist. And we've tried

• 31:02Speaker 02

  to equip ourselves with all of these tools and this knowledge to be able to attack arguments and valleys better in any phase or category of life. So the hardest part and my favorite part, and I think the answer to the question is, We tried to take all of that wisdom that we've learned from other people, not that we've, you know, come up with ourselves and put it into like a how to and why in the book. And we've actually dissected how we go about it, how we go about implementing a new commitment and then sticking with it. And when it gets really hard and we start fighting about it, what rhythms and routines we can put into place to kind of protect that and make that argument easier to get through.

• 31:46Speaker 02

  And I mean, we've, we've kind of gone down to the, the smallest example of we didn't like that our family was watching a lot of TV.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  But we wanted to commit to not watching as much TV. And then how do we actually make that happen? And we even talked about how we took out a TV of our, we took out the main TV in our living room, like in our hosting space. And we thought it was crazy and it caused an argument. But then we looked back three weeks later and we're like, you know what? Our kids aren't asking for it. We're actually connecting more. And there's like all of these little examples, but I think within our arguments in our marriage,

• 32:25Speaker 02

  we've implemented an infrastructure of, you know what, this argument has gotten so heated over something so silly. Let's go back to

• 32:36Speaker 02

  kind of the tools that we've learned and start there and work our way to the agreement, I guess. Does that make sense?

• 32:42Speaker 03

  Your question makes me think like that. The idea of grabbing the steering wheel back for me has always come out of a place of like this desperation or maybe this urgency of like, oh no, but I can't let you do this, this to me right now. And

• 32:58Speaker 03

  it makes me think of, Sean talks about how she had to do something like 16,000 reps to, to stick this certain movement on a balance beam, which I think is the craziest, I think that's the craziest event in any sport where you're trying to do backflips on a four inch wide beam. But just this concept that She's not going to get it right the first time. And it's gonna actually, she's not even gonna do it on the balance beam the first time. It's like this growing process and like, there's this try, fail, try, fail, try, fail. That's not, that's not urgent. It's, it's over the course of years that you learn this. And when I started applying that concept to how we had conversations,

• 33:39Speaker 03

  it made me a little more curious to, to like view it from a third party audience member kind of perspective. Like, oh, okay, well, this is just a rep. We're, we're having this conversation. We've had the same argument about one specific topic, which is our, which are our dogs. Probably like the same conversation 200 times.

• 34:01Jefferson Fisher?

  How many dogs you have?

• 34:02Speaker 03

  Two now, yeah. And

• 34:04Jefferson Fisher?

  What are the names of these dogs?

• 34:06Speaker 02

  Oh, do we have the same dogs?

• 34:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I'm concerned about.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  We have two golden retrievers, Nash and Oakley.

• 34:13Speaker 03

  That's cool. But it's funny, you're like, okay, I'm frustrated. I, I was at one point frustrated because it's like, why are we still talking about this? We've talked about this so many times. And then when you zoom out and you're like, okay, this is just a rep. Like this is just a practice rep. How can I learn from this? What am I, what am I getting inflamed by? And what am I saying that she gets inflamed by? And then let's, next time when we have this conversation, let's just like, keep that in mind. And we'll maybe tweak that one next time, just like she does with her backflip on a balance. We, oh, let's tweak this and we'll move our, our foot placement here. And we'll maybe, you know, rotate a little harder. Let's just make little tweaks. And when you, when you compound that over time and you give it a runway to do that by committing to, to something

• 34:57Speaker 03

  for an extended period of time and not just like, yeah, one date or whatever, or one rep trying to do a backflip. It really allows you to, to like, see the change happen. So we argue better now. We argue still often now, but it's like, it's with a different mentality of like, it takes the edge off.

• 35:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I think, but I think that's, that's the point though. It's like, you will argue, you will have conflict and you know, that makes you better. Yeah. It's like you, you have to sometimes celebrate the commitment.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:28Jefferson Fisher?

  To be in the moment where you're flooded and you're just, you're thinking of all the things that you want to say. And then you have to realize like,

• 35:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Man, we did not handle this well. We can at least like celebrate the commitment, you know? We can at least have some grace to the fact that we're, we're still committed to this. And can we at least celebrate that? Like, give us a little bit of kudos that we're still, still doing this.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Because I think a lot of people just, they hit that eject button really, really early. And it really just takes, I'm talking about some deep, you, you better dig deep if you're gonna be doing this. Cause you're gonna have some stuff that you go, I know, I was not prepared for the way this is feeling.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  Also, I have like a lighter note, a bit darker, that's why we wrote the book.

• 36:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Culture is very odd right now, where I feel like culture is trying to teach everybody that that's not normal.

• 36:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Committing, yeah.

• 36:24Speaker 02

  Committing and hardship. People, I feel like in today's culture, keep preaching this idea of if you commit to something, then it shouldn't be hard. And if it's not hard, you know, you have the right, you chose the right thing. And it's so opposite of that. I think no matter what you choose, it's going to be very difficult. But the longer you stay committed to it, the more joyful and the more fruitful it will be. I mean, I, I fell in love with gymnastics at the age of three and it was so hard.

• 36:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:58Speaker 02

  And I even tried quitting multiple times. And I would quit for a week and I'd be like, you know what? I really like it and I really wanna go back. But every time I would push through something, it would be more joyful. And I just think culture's got it wrong and it's, it's frustrating to witness.

• 37:18Jefferson Fisher?

  I think that is so well said, Sean, to, to be that we, I do think you're right. Where if it doesn't come easy, you, it, then you shouldn't just really do it. But it's, it's, it's not that at all. It's, it's that exact contrast that makes it worth.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Doing, cause if everything was easy, then.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  It wouldn't be fun.

• 37:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, then there wouldn't be, I don't think, the, the fruit, the joy.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Out of it.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  And I think if people just keep believing that, then they'll never find anything.

• 37:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Tell me more.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  In the sense of like, if, if someone is searching in business and life and a hobby and a marriage or relationship for the perfect, the perfect easy commitment of whatever it is, you will never find it. Because you will find yourself in a relationship or a business where you're like, this is so easy, it's meant to be. And you're gonna hit your first roadblock and start doubting that you made the right choice. Instead of saying, break it on.

• 38:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Let me get through it and prove to you that I still love this. And I think that's why people quit stuff so much anymore.

• 38:26Jefferson Fisher?

  You, do you find any kind of, knowing that this is exactly what you wrote the book about, do you find that there is some of those parallels between what y'all know to be, to have the, the mindset of an Olympian or pro athlete or whatever, and then now applying those same kind of principles to marriage? Because it's another thing of like gymnastics, you said gymnastics is hard, it's really not doing. Marriage, marriage is.

• 38:59Speaker 02

  Harder?

• 39:00Jefferson Fisher?

  I don't, yeah, I haven't done gymnastics. Like, I remember once somebody, I was on a trampoline and I, I was gonna try and do a backflip and they're like, you just gotta commit. Like, committed myself to the ER, y'all. Like, this is not gonna work. But I can, I can, I have to believe that, hearing from y'all that, yeah, being the top of my, my world was hard, marriage is harder.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, marriage is a lot harder.

• 39:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Really?

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, there's a lot of principles you can apply, but it's, it's different.

• 39:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:40Speaker 02

  Because there's so many more variables.

• 39:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  You're. Taking two different human beings and trying to figure out life together. And we change a lot every year, every day with every kid, with every business.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:57Speaker 02

  So the variables just keep changing.

• 39:59Speaker 03

  Dude, I always laugh, you know, in our world, there's all these like health gurus or self improvement gurus. Where it's like, if you wanna, if you wanna be your best self, then you wake up at four AM, you take an ice bath. Yeah. Get your morning workout in, do your breath work meditation.

• 40:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Standing in the sun.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, if you, and, and you know, they're talking about it's important to be uncomfortable.

• 40:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 40:17Speaker 03

  It's like, dude, if you wanna be uncomfortable and be your best self, marriage, bro. That is like every day, you're looking at yourself in the mirror and you got some, you got someone else.

• 40:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  You're like, all right, this is uncomfortable.

• 40:28Jefferson Fisher?

  And I feel like most of the guys saying that are guys that are not married.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:31Jefferson Fisher?

  That's what it says, like, hey, you get married and have some kids.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Dude.

• 40:35Jefferson Fisher?

  And then come back to me. Then come back to me.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  But it makes you better, dude.

• 40:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 40:39Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely.

• 40:40Jefferson Fisher?

  The courage to commit. Um, I'm really proud of y'all putting this message out. I think it's a, it's a message that needs to be said. And I think it's a book, you know, they, they talk about books that come at the, the right time, uh, in the right way. And I think this is, this is spot on. This is a book that people need to hear, myself included, Sierra included, lots of couples and the, you know, of, of, it really is. It, it's, it's not just the commitment, there's also the courage part. But that is not easy. And yeah, it took a lot of courage to, to write this book and put this out, cause y'all could have written about all kinds of different things. All right. Uh, but y'all, y'all wrote this, so I'm, um, I'm excited to share this with my community. And thank y'all so much for

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Sitting down and talking with me.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  Thanks for having us.

• 41:24Speaker 03

  Do you mind if I, if I close this out and share one last visual here?

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 41:29Jefferson Fisher?

  I know, I know, I'm sorry.

• 41:30Speaker 03

  Let's go.

• 41:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, I love this. Well, no, if you, go ahead, Sean. I'm just gonna keep talking about that.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. One big, I don't know, it'll take us overtime here. I'll never forget watching Indiana Jones and there's this scene where Indiana Jones is on, on this cliff. And he's trying to get to the other side. And to get there, he has to take this leap of faith. He has to have the courage, like step in to, to what he's been told is this invisible bridge to the other side. And, and to me, that's why I hope this book inspires is like, hey, You like, you don't know. You can't tell for sure until you jump in and you like, come on in, the water's fine. You know, it's like, you have to take the step, you have to take the leap of faith. In order to get to that other thing, to get to the other side, whether it's a relationship, like the meaningful business, build that thing.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  It's like, you have to take the leap of faith and you have to have the courage. And then you have to put your full weight down on that thing. And anyway, I appreciate you having us on. You're a communication guru, so this has been a real treat.

• 42:31Jefferson Fisher?

  No, no, I don't. Yeah. Keep that guru thing out there. Not that. No, I do want to make sure and ask this question. Who, when you think of who you wrote this book for, who are the people that come to mind? I was gonna tell you, you can look at me and Sierra for one.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  It's you.

• 42:48Jefferson Fisher?

  It's you.

• 42:48Speaker 03

  It's just me.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  I mean, I'm a mom. The very person that came to mind is like my kids and their future. But anybody stuck wanting to feel probably just more purpose in life, which sounds crazy. But we have so many friends who are shopping for the perfect person. And there's, I know a friend who's probably brought three different potential partners to us over the past eight years. Who all could have been so wonderful. But people are so afraid of making the wrong choice. And I think you need to start being obsessed with making a choice and figuring it out. And that's just not what culture wants us to do right now.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 43:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:34Speaker 03

  Thank you all so much for your time.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, guys.

• 43:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you.

• 43:38Speaker 04

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