Ky Dickens

Ky Dickens is an award-winning director, filmmaker, and host of the podcast, The Telepathy Tapes. Venturing into audio storytelling, she explores consciousness, human potential, and the profound abilities of telepathy among non-speakers with autism. Alongside neuroscientist Dr. Diane Hennacy Powell, Dickens travels the globe to learn more from non-speakers and their families, challenging preconceived notions about communication as we know it. Beyond her chart-topping podcast, her work in film tackles complex social issues to influence public policy and drive cultural change. Her acclaimed filmography includes the documentaries #TimeToCare and Show Her the Money, and The Telepathy Tapes is now being developed into a feature film slated for 2025. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Vivo Barefoot http://Vivobarefoot.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA25' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://DrinkLMNT.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Telepathy is a triggering word, I think, right, for a lot of people. And it is wrought with what we think of like magic shows and, you know, snake oil and stuff. And when I started working on this, I found a lot of the parents have other words, and same with a lot of the non-speaking individuals. You know, one is like non-local consciousness, right? Like it can travel and go out there somewhere. One is this idea of thought sharing, right? You can share thoughts, not through words, but you can share thoughts. But then some of the parents would say, you know, "I think this is above and beyond just quote-unquote telepathy or thought sharing. I think we are merging in some way and sharing a consciousness." And I would sometimes ask why, and because the parents say sometimes we are so on the

• 0:46Speaker 00

  same, or the teacher, this happens with teachers and therapists and stuff too, we are so on the same level that I don't know if a thought is mine or theirs. It just seems like we're the same. And it's one of the reasons I want more research done in this space is to figure out what's going on. Tell me about the research that you did looking into the history of extrasensory perception. Yeah, you know, this is the thing about a lot of this stuff, right? Is that this wasn't my world. I was never into what you might call like woo-woo stuff, or metaphysical or parapsychological stuff. So I walked into this project thinking telepathy was not possible. It's just impossible. That's superheroes do that, right? And so...

• 1:51Speaker 00

  Then, once you start to see it and you see it over and over and you start to reevaluate all the things you've ever been told in the world, it made me reevaluate everything. I shrugged off as impossible. And one of the great places to start for me was Dean Radin's books. And I went back and looked at the lot of the history around remote viewing research, telepathy research. It's been done, it's been repeated, it's been peer reviewed, it's been done again, it's been repeated. It's there. And it's pretty conclusive that people have proven in labs that who are just neurotypical people, you know, that telepathy is possible, remote viewing is possible. They've tested remote viewing where people have to, you know, say what they see in coordinates that are nowhere

• 2:32Speaker 00

  near them in a submarine to see, you know, well, how are they doing this? Is it electromagnetic waves? Is it this? Or is it that? So they took some remote viewers and put them way far down in the ocean where those type of waves can't penetrate. And remote viewing was still possible. So there's a wonderful history of research in this space.

• 2:53Rick Rubin?

  How did you get involved in this project, in the Telepathy Project?

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Well, I'm a documentary filmmaker, you know, by trade in that typically I've worked on social issue stuff, films, right? About like expanding access to affordable Medicare, you know, paid family medical leave in America, right? Like, pretty dry, fundamental, human rights type stuff. In the documentary space, often the documentarian is doing years, I mean, sometimes months, but for me, it's usually years of research, trying to become an expert in something, before you even make money, before you even get funding or anything like that. And I had two friends die when I was in between projects, really great people too, you know. One was killed like after serving a few people who are, didn't have a home, housing insecure, and got hit by a car, you know, just like beautiful people.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  And I was frustrated and I was angry and I was thinking, I don't understand, like, what is all this? And what does it mean? And why are we here? Because clearly, there can't be any meaning in this. And So I decided, whatever I do next, I want it to be a project that's looking at why we're here, where we're going, what the purpose of all of this is. And I don't know where it's going to lead me, but I'm going to read hundreds of books on it anyway, right? Like podcasts, like I just want to fill my mind. So might as well follow those threads to try to do a project, not knowing what that project would be. And there was about like a year and a half of research, reading, podcasts. And then I just one day heard a podcast with Dr. Diane Hennessy-Powell, who'd been studying non-speaking autistic individuals and their telepathic abilities. And I thought, this is fascinating.

• 4:24Speaker 00

  If this is true, this could change everything. Maybe this is even the key to everything. I always find like in finding a project or finding the story you want to tell next is kind of falling in love. Like sometimes you don't know what you're looking for, you don't know what's going to hit, but when it hits, you know. It's just like everything in your body is like electric. And that's how I felt when I heard that podcast with Dr. Powell.

• 4:43Rick Rubin?

  What was the first personal experience you had when you dove into the project? Your first experience of seeing something unusual happen?

• 4:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of Zoom calls at first. You know, Dr. Powell had kind of introduced me to some of the families that she'd previously tested. And I started forming relationships with them. And I would say, can you send me some videos? And they were pretty amazing. I mean, what looked like telepathy of a parent pulling a book off of a shelf and saying, okay, what am I looking at? And the child would say, and it's like, what? But even me, I'm like, they have to be cheating. There has to be something they're looking at. This can't be real. I need to see it in person. And so Mia, who was a, I think, a 12 year old at the time in Mexico, I got her family flown up here, rented the space, like brought all my own telepathy cues, brought in Dr. Powell. I wanted to set it up all on my own, so there could be no, you know, funny business. And I mean, that was the first time I saw her telepathic abilities with my own eyes,

• 5:37Speaker 00

  which shook you to your core. I can't even imagine. I mean, I felt like I was having an out of body experience, you know? But the day prior to that, I took her family out to lunch. And that was just as remarkable because just something really wild happened. We had a translator, the entire family speaks Spanish, except for her aunt. And at one point, I asked a question. And Mia, before her aunt even had a time to translate into Spanish, Mia started answering me in English. And what I enjoyed is the whole, not just me, but the whole family is like, what? What? She answered you in English. How did she do that? We didn't even translate it back. And that was the first moment where I realized, like, the parents are just as baffled and floored

• 6:21Speaker 00

  as I was in a lot of these adventures of learning about their children, especially once they start spelling and are able to kind of get a glean of their, of some of their gifts, you know?

• 6:31Rick Rubin?

  There are other stories in the podcast of different languages. Tell me more about that. That's really interesting.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. So not just one family, many, many families would say, well, I don't know how, but my child can also speak fluent Portuguese or fluent Spanish or can identify hieroglyphics or knows Hebrew or knows Russian. I mean, it's not like they were just a romance languages. Like, sometimes these were really, you know, kind of unusual languages.

• 7:00Rick Rubin?

  And no one in the family knew these languages?

• 7:03Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no. Mm-mm.

• 7:04Rick Rubin?

  Wow. Just out of the blue?

• 7:07Speaker 00

  Out of the blue, yeah.

• 7:08Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  And I realize how crazy this sounds. Like, you kind of have to start at episode one and go all the way through episode 10. When this comes up with the podcast, it's not crazy, you know? But the parents would, of course, ask, how do you know this? And what I love is in episode seven, it wasn't just the parent. It was like a teacher and an aide and the principal. Like, three people were in the room as this girl started identifying hieroglyphics. And then also she could write Portuguese to Spanish to English. And she grew up outside of, you know, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. You know, like, the whole family is just like, you know, pure white bread, Wisconsin's, you know? And no other language, no bilingual family members. And so it was really remarkable. And one of the people in the room, who was Spanish, said, you know,

• 7:52Speaker 00

  she can speak this better than my kids who I've been teaching. You know, a fascinating turn of events. And one theory is if all language, all communication, all consciousness is telepathic at its core, right? Like, at its baseline core, then languages would just be putting words to symbols and emotions. And like, this is more how I think a lot of these individuals can understand other languages. Maybe it's just like, understanding the symbols coming at you because they get the telepathy behind it. And so that we can explain how they be able to understand everything, but how they're able to speak it is beyond me. And some, some parents have asked their children and the children will say, I go somewhere at night and I study. I, I study in the realms, or some will call it heaven, or some will say they're studying

• 8:37Speaker 00

  with the teacher. And it's mystical and confusing and awe enhancing as well.

• 8:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Do they mean when they're asleep or not necessarily?

• 8:49Speaker 00

  I'm guessing when they're asleep, but I don't necessarily think that's the case. But I know often when they talk about going to school somewhere, they're talking about it at night. So I'm assuming they're asleep.

• 9:02Rick Rubin?

  What is Talk on the Hill?

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Around the third episode of the telepathy tapes, by this point, you know, I have met a few families and I'm thinking telepathy is just within, this is unusual cases, this is a miracle under this roof, right? And then soon, a lot of non-speaking individuals start telling me, no, every non-reliable speaking person, or unreliable speaking person, or non-speaking person has this gift. And words like every always make me nervous. That's a big word. And non-speakers, because it takes so much effort to communicate, often don't misplace their words. So around episode three, I'm thinking, wow, okay, so this seems to be maybe more widespread than I imagined. And the young man I introduced in episode three named Houston, he explains that at

• 9:47Speaker 00

  least with his Atlanta buddies, there is this thing called the Talk on the Hill, where they can kind of tune in to a telepathic chat room, hang out, discuss ideas, support each other, help each other, they laugh, they cry. And my eyes are wide and I'm thinking, wow, okay, really? Like what? And then I met Houston's friend, John Paul, and John Paul's mom showed me when he was on the hill and John Paul would put pillows over his head in order to keep sound out so he could really lock in. And his mom was like, you know, he'll do this for hours and sometimes he's laughing and he'll run up right after school. And sometimes he'll come down and tell me, I want to go see this person. Like, he really developed a relationship with a girl, Lily, on the hill. Became his girlfriend.

• 10:30Speaker 00

  And right when he comes off the hill to say that, Lily's parents are also texting, saying, "Lillian wants to see John Paul," you know, things like that were happening. So at first, I thought, maybe this is just an Atlanta thing. Like, these five friends can telepathically tune in with each other. But then, you know, before this, the telepathy dips were even out. So there's no way people could know about this. There was a minister in Arizona who was talking to me about one of his people in his congregation, who's a non-speaker, who was talking about the hill and inviting people to the hill. There's a teacher in Chicago that I met, who was saying her kids were talking about the hill. And that, it makes you wonder, and it makes you believe. And then I met a father in Israel, and he says that his son goes to his own hill. And they have kind of like the Orthodox Jewish hill over there.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  And since the podcast has been released, I've gotten emails from other parents, being like, you know, Arizona has a hill, and there's multiple hills. You know, they're not all the same. So it's fascinating.

• 11:25Rick Rubin?

  Amazing. Tell me a story of Lily and John Paul.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  So John Paul was a gigantic young man. When I met him, he was, I think, 15 and almost seven feet tall, like, almost 300 pounds. He was huge, huge, huge, huge.

• 11:38Rick Rubin?

  And non-speaker?

• 11:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's a non-speaker. And what's fascinating is his mom was a speech and language pathologist, which is, you know, accredited by the group ASHA, who's against spelling. So she didn't teach it right away. And then when she did, she's like, this is amazing. And it really brought John Paul out of his shell. He wanted to become a poet, and he had a girlfriend, Lily, who he adored. He loved Lily. They hung out a lot. They'd go on dates. And his mom would always have like a cool, you know, babysitter or someone so they wouldn't have to like worry about like parents being around them when they were on a date.

• 12:11Rick Rubin?

  And Lily was a non-speaker as well. How did they meet?

• 12:15Speaker 00

  They went to the same school in Atlanta. And then eventually, John Paul ended up being homeschooled. So, but that's when they first met. And then, you know, they talked a lot about developing their relationship on the Hill. And they, yeah, became very close. John Paul wanted to marry Lily. And, you know, maybe about a year and a half after I met John Paul, he had a seizure and he died in his hot tub. And so that was awful. It was just awful. And, you know, especially because he, the love that him and his girlfriend Lily shared, his best friend Houston, you know, their moms were kind of like living this life together with their two non-speaking sons. And what is really difficult life was deeply enriched by having each other.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Really enriched. So it was tragic. But for Libby, pretty quickly after the death occurred, she started getting notes and messages and visits from non-speakers, who were all explaining that John Paul came to visit them before he passed, that he knew he was going to pass, that they've talked to him on the Hill since then, explaining what he looks like. All these people were saying the same thing. So I think for Libby, it was just jaw dropping, because it made her feel as though her son was still existing. And that story becomes even more, more amazing. But it's how this, the season kind of ends in episode nine. So I don't want to give everything away.

• 13:41Speaker 00

  But it certainly is, it made me believe in the, in the continuation of consciousness, or the soul, if you will.

• 13:51Rick Rubin?

  What are parents told that the child kind of can't do, based on the mainstream?

• 13:59Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's the thing that was heartbreaking for me, talking to so many of these parents, was just how hopeless it was. They're truly told, there is no hope for this child. You'll never know them. They'll never communicate. They won't understand anything that you're telling them. You know, there's no hope for them going to school. I mean, it is just a bleak and hopeless diagnosis for a lot of these parents. And they're often told the same thing by the medical, you know, community, by the education system. And

• 14:31Rick Rubin?

  This is the case right now.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  Right now.

• 14:34Rick Rubin?

  We're not talking about like back in the 1950s. This is how they treated people. This is now.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, now, yeah. And also, I guess, the hopeful thing is, you know, it's been fascinating to look at a lot of the emails coming in, which are so many, it's hard to respond to them. But a lot are like, I have a 10 year old son. Could he learn to spell? Can my child communicate? Is this really true? And my first step is usually to connect them with other parents that have gone through it. But it's just this like, what? I was told something totally different. So a lot of these parents feel gaslit, you know, their entire life, they felt gaslit.

• 15:08Rick Rubin?

  Why is the scientific and medical community frown upon the idea that there are people inside who can live productive lives?

• 15:18Speaker 00

  I've thought a lot about that. And I, I think there's a few things at play, you know? One is for now 30, 40 years, all of our systems have been really brutalizing these individuals by making them, treating them like they're not smart. They're not in there robbing them of education and dignity and social lives. And so there's a lot of, you know, quote unquote, blood on the hands. If you were to sit there and admit, oops, we've been wrong this whole time. Sorry, you know, when kids have been institutionalized and, you know, severely, you know, medicated and in some countries euthanized.

• 15:52Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  I think it's legal in Brussels to euthanize non speakers. And so that's awful. The other thing that's really strange to me is I was reading about the history of Braille, the history of sign language. That was no cakewalk either. And when Louis Braille, who was a blind boy who invented Braille, first brought it to the institution in France where he was a student, the students loved it. They understood it, they could do it. And the, you know, the head of the administration was like, no, you can't talk this way. This isn't, I don't even believe you, you know? And they locked up the Braille books. And then when they were really advocating, please, please, please let us show you that we can talk and communicate and write through these dots. They did a big sample in the room where, you know, two kids said, okay, I'm going to write something

• 16:38Speaker 00

  and I'm going to read it. And oh, wow, they're To read through their fingers, you know, and the people in the room were like, this is fraud, this is pseudoscience, they must have planned it in advance, they planned the words, it's a trick, they didn't believe it, and took a long time to get braille as part of our community. And the same thing with sign language. Even in the 70s, kids who were deaf were being told you need to read lips or kind of use like a hearing aid. But sign language, no, no, you can't be communicating that way, like you have to read lips and fit into our world. So this dictatorship, this power over like, who gets to communicate and how and why and what form is appropriate is not new.

• 17:19Rick Rubin?

  Tell me the story of the three stones.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  You know, as we talked about in the beginning, I didn't believe really in telepathy. And then, and then you see it, and then you start to wonder what else you've disregarded that is true. And one of those things for me was rocks and crystals. I mean, I always understood people put meaning on to them. I didn't know if they actually worked or did anything to your physical space. And so Katie is the mom of this young man, Houston. Katie's an evangelical Christian, and so she does, she's not really a fan of much that, you know, be considered new age, especially rocks and crystals and stuff. And she was giving him like some rocks and crystals from a massage therapist and thought, oh, come on. And she, you know, put them on her bathtub, which was like behind like two doors to her primary bedroom, which was behind two doors to the bathroom type thing. Houston came

• 18:08Speaker 00

  home from school and just went tearing upstairs, like through all the doors to find the rocks and dug, you know, got them and got really excited and brought them to his bedroom and lined them up next to his bed.

• 18:18Rick Rubin?

  She didn't tell him about the rocks?

• 18:20Speaker 00

  No, nothing.

• 18:21Rick Rubin?

  He knew that these rocks had appeared in the house somehow.

• 18:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, and he could feel them.

• 18:26Rick Rubin?

  He could feel them.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, he could feel them. He stormed through two sets of doors and found them. And then he went and put them, he lied on his bed and he lined them up on his nightstand so they'd be within like six inches of his head. And his mom was just like, Houston, what is going on? And he said, I can feel the rocks, they've got great energy. We need more of this good energy in our house. Like they're, they're really letting off good energy. And he says each one has a different vibration. And Katie, who his mom, who is a total researcher, I mean, she could have been like a genius Nobel Prize winning scientist. She went and looked this up and sure enough, like every rock has its own vibration and Houston can feel them. And now, if you go into Houston's room years later, you know, Katie leaned into this love of Houston's and it's like a rock and gem store. I mean, there's so many rocks in there.

• 19:12Speaker 00

  And, you know, Katie said she brought home, not long after that, she brought home a Christmas present for, you know, her son in law. And it was like, you know, Dungeons and Dragons, like, you know, dice made out of crystals or something. She wrapped them up, you know, while Houston was at school, got all gift wrapped, hid them. And Houston came home from school that day and went right for the dice, the rocks, found them, unwrapped them and was like, what is this? When did this come in his house? And she's like, it's a rock, the crystal dice, you know? So I think it was after that second incident where she's like, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna go get you some crystals.

• 19:47Rick Rubin?

  Through the making of the podcast, how many non-speakers did you come in contact with?

• 19:56Speaker 00

  Maybe like 100? I'd say there's 10 that I feel really deeply close to, maybe 15, you know, I talk to regularly. And then in like the next tier out, there's probably like 30 that are like, you know, or talk to like, once a quarter or to connect with their moms. And then, but then as far as like other parents and other teachers, those extrapolate out to, you know, scores more.

• 20:22Rick Rubin?

  Would you imagine that these kids are outliers within the autistic community? Or would you imagine that this is typical, just maybe not tested or not known?

• 20:35Speaker 00

  I don't think this has to do with autism as much it has to do with like the non-speakers, right? So I'd say like, non-speakers with autism, I'd say it's rarely common. I'd say it is the likelihood, usually if you have a non-speaker and it's just not known. And I mean, part of that is too, because of the letters that I'm seeing right now where parents will say, I never thought my son could do this. And then I tested him after listening and sure enough, like he could tell me anything I wrote. And I've gotten some great videos from parents testing this and it's pretty remarkable.

• 21:08Rick Rubin?

  So there would be no way for a parent to know about this if they followed the traditional track that probably most people would, they would never know.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  Well, I don't think totally, I think they do know often or there's this gut sense of it, you know, like, so I'm trying to raise money to make the film version of this. One of the characters or subjects we're going to follow in the film is a boy who Houston has said telepathically communicated to him while in school, they're in the same special ed class, tell my mom, I'm in here, I want to spell. And we want to get him in an immersive spelling, you know, type situation so we can watch this unfolding of him in the film. Well, anyway, I kind of asked the mom, I said, look, and she didn't know about the telepathy yet, and I said, I feel really foolish asking you this, but is there any way that you think your son might have telepathic abilities, you know? And she said, yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 00

  And he's never spelled. And I said, well, why do you say that? And she's like, well, one time he was bouncing on his bed or something, and it drove me nuts. And in my head, I said really loudly and clear, but not speaking it, just in my head, like, stop bouncing on the bed. And she's like, and he stopped. And then I started realizing if he's doing something and I just say it in my head really clear, he'll respond. And then I was like, okay, are there more examples? And she said, yeah, like, we have to lock the snap cabinets because he'll go and lick the salt off chips and stuff. And she's like, and sometimes I'll think about where the key is, or because I want to go get something. And the second I think about where the key is, he'll run and go grab it. And then he's down there before I can stop him. And she goes, so then I changed it and I put a four-digit type code lock, padlock on.

• 22:48Speaker 00

  And she's like, and the second I think of the code, or I text it to my husband or my other, you know, my other son or something, second, it was out there, he'd be down there. And she's like, but there's, I didn't say it out loud. And so she's like, there's all these things that happen all the time. Or I come home with his presents and I think, okay, I'm going to hide his birthday presents this year in the garage above the blank, blank, blank. And she'll hide them and that's it. But then she's like, if I think about it, like, if I'm going to come home with something else, I try to remember where they're at, suddenly he'll be in there. And so she had all these examples of, he had never even learned to communicate yet, but she's like, the telepathy is there. So, and then, you know, it's kind of funny is before this was out. But like I had a few friends, of course, you know, I'm working on it.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  So maybe last year, and they'd send me like something that's on TikTok of a mom being like, I feel crazy saying this, but you know, I think my son understands my thoughts and I'm pretty sure he does. And so, you know, I think it's always been there bubbling in the families of this community. But now there's something people can feel validated by, hopefully.

• 23:51Rick Rubin?

  What is assumed competence?

• 23:54Speaker 00

  Assuming competence is treating non-speaking individuals as if they're in there. Many of the people in my podcast, The Telepathy Tapes, are non-speakers with something called apraxia, where their mind and body are disconnected and you can't easily and effortlessly tell your body what to do. And because of that, it's really difficult to assess intelligence because your body isn't relaying all the things that you know. And because of that, I think non-speaking individuals have very often been treated as though they're not understanding, they're not capable of learning, there is no knowledge, there's no identity in there, and all of those things are false.

• 24:36Speaker 00

  So presuming competence is meeting these individuals with a understanding that they're competent, even if their bodies might be betraying that.

• 24:46Rick Rubin?

  And what are spellers?

• 24:49Speaker 00

  So in The Telepathy Tapes, you know, we look at claims of widespread telepathy amongst this group of non-speaking individuals. And I'll get to spelling, but the reason they can't speak, often, yes, because of apraxia, but speaking is a fine motor skill. You have to use, you know, the small muscles in your mouth and that type of thing, whereas pointing to letters on a letter board is a gross motor skill. So often you can point to letters and spell to communicate, even if you can't speak to communicate. And there's different types of spelling methodology. It started as facilitated communication, and then there was something called spelling to communicate, and then there was something called the rapid prompting method. You know, there's all these different methods. But kind of the catchall I use within the program is just spellers, people who's to communicate that way.

• 25:34Rick Rubin?

  Can you walk me through each of those modalities? I'm curious to how they work.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm not a spelling expert, but facilitated communication is what started. And that got a really bad rap. And it really has stigmatized all of spelling because people were using or putting pressure on the hand or the wrist of the person communicating. And there were some court cases that came about that clearly showed that what was being communicated was not accurate. And that really made people, I think, turn their backs pretty quickly on facilitated communication. So, well, and before moving on to what has grown from there, I just want to say that even though FC or facilitated communication got a bad rap, many of the individuals who are non-speakers with autism don't know they have a body, can't feel their body,

• 26:22Speaker 00

  have to go through great lengths to know where their arm is, their fingers, their feet. And so having someone push on your wrist or give you pressure can really help you spell and communicate.

• 26:34Rick Rubin?

  So it's like a physical cue that you can use this part of your body?

• 26:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like giving you input. Like, here's your hand. This is where you can use. This is the part that you need to move. And to judge that, because we can all feel where our hands are, doesn't feel very fair. So I think there's a lot of parents who are like, this has been essential, using facilitated communication. So I don't want it to be just thrown out because they're touched, because sometimes that touch is necessary. But then it evolved. And what evolved next was like, don't touch, don't touch, don't touch. And all these spelling methods, which rapid prompting method came first, you can't touch at all. And often you start on a letterboard with like A, B, C, you know, big, big letters. So it's easier point. And then you go smaller and smaller. And you kind of have to learn and build those neural pathways.

• 27:25Speaker 00

  So a lot of individuals start with yes and no or just answering questions. And then there's the moment where you become open on the boards, just like, you know, just like many of us when we're learning to speak, right? Like, kids might say a few words and then all of a sudden, boom, they're having conversations. And when the individuals become open, that's a huge day, I think, for most families and parents.

• 27:45Rick Rubin?

  Do you think that most parents know that is possible?

• 27:50Speaker 00

  I'm hoping they're starting to now after the telepathy tapes being out there. But many parents are told their kids will never understand, won't be competent, won't learn above the age of a three-year-old. And so a lot of parents don't try spelling because they just fully believe their child isn't capable of it, which is not true. Or they go online and see, oh, spelling has been debunked. It's a pseudoscience, which isn't true either. There's been a lot of wonderful evidence showing how helpful this is for individuals and families. And then what I found, even with a lot of the subjects in the telepathy tapes, was that parents would think, OK, I see that kid's spelling, but they're different from my kid.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  My kid chews their muscles almost down to the bone, or will hit their head against the wall, or smear feces, or just elope, they can't sit still for 10 seconds. And can you imagine not being able to express what you want to do for dinner, or that you might hate this particular sound? And so, once you're able to start expressing that stuff, they calm down, and behaviors change.

• 28:57Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the power of thoughts.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  Well, I think one of the themes, missions of this project is to hopefully help people understand that consciousness is fundamental. It's not the mistake that came at the end of our physical universe. And materialism is a reigning paradigm or philosophy that really holds our scientific institutions and Western institutions together. And this is that anything can be measured and touched as real, and things that can't be measured aren't so much. And in materialism, we think of the base of the universe as kind of physical, and there's physics in that, and biology, and psychology. And at the tippy-top of this pyramid is consciousness. Where does that come from? And how did it appear? Wow, that's weird.

• 29:46Speaker 00

  And what many leading scientists that are thinking materialism isn't correct, this isn't, it can't be correct because it doesn't account for everything, have suggested consciousness is actually the base of the pyramid. It's the most fundamental thing. The thought comes before everything else. And if that is the case, then it makes sense that ESP and clairvoyance and remote viewing and near-death experiences and all that stuff would be possible because the more real thing than us physically is our thoughts. Even having talked to some of the parents about this, and you know, if you look around your house, everything was a thought first. Your walls, your pillow, picture frames, the microphone I'm using, the internet we're on. That didn't exist first. Our thoughts came first.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  So I think there's a lot of basis for the truth in this.

• 30:36Rick Rubin?

  Do you think that the powers that be's resistance to this idea is that if you accept that consciousness is the base, that everything we believe is basically turned on its head and we start over? Is that the fear that it upsets the order too much?

• 30:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't. I'm not sure why it's so fought against, you know, because it's not like we have to throw out all the textbooks. You know, most of our biology and psychology and physics books are correct. Quantum physics, that's a different story. But but most of our thoughts around materialism aren't wrong. It's just kind of where consciousness fits into this. And so I think we've just become so embedded in this materialist society that we don't even realize how snobby we've become in thinking that something that doesn't fit has to be laughable or, you know, dismissed or ridiculed. And so many of the scientists like Dr. Powell and Rupert Sheldrake, Eden Radin, who are in my podcast, will have talked about this,

• 31:43Speaker 00

  that they release research, and some of it's peer reviewed research, a lot of it's peer reviewed research, that's really credible and has been repeated. And that skeptics won't even look at it because out of hand, they're like, it's impossible. We won't even read it because it had to be in the air somewhere. And that's frustrating because the freedom of inquiry is essential in science.

• 32:02Rick Rubin?

  I was gonna say, that doesn't sound like science at all. The idea that you discount something because it's not what you believe in advance, that defeats the whole scientific method.

• 32:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, it does. No, you're totally right. And I think, you know, something that Rupert Sheldrake, who's a biologist from Cambridge, says a lot. He's like, you know, this has become scientism, has become a religion into itself. Everything can be explained by science. And if science can't explain it, then it doesn't exist or it's not real or it's not worth looking at. And that's as, to me, like, small minded and dogmatic as like a fundamental religion who believes things without observation and thought.

• 32:41Rick Rubin?

  It is. You're describing exactly a fundamental religion.

• 32:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's scientism, and we're fighting up against that. I mean, even I can see it when I'm talking about what I've been working on for years. So some people, and they'll come, I'll laugh and they smirk. And it's just like, come on, man, like, that's ignorant, right? Like, hear it out.

• 33:03Rick Rubin?

  They don't argue it. They just discount it and shame you for having these unaccepted ideas.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, or they think it has to be fake.

• 33:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:16Speaker 00

  You know, there's like a guy in my neighborhood and his kid goes to my daughter's school. And he's always like, but you were gonna tell me like how the magic works, right? I'm like, there wasn't magic. It was real. And he's like, no, no, no, but like, come on, you know me like, I'm like, what do you want me to say? It's real. Like, he just can't fathom it, you know? And then I'll even tell him, like, look, you can come look at all the tests on my computer. Just mosey on over anytime and you could see it from all the different angles. It's not magic. I was like, and then it's like, well, there has to be cheating, right? Like, obviously, like, there has to be Morse code going on where the parents like tapping their foot or doing this or, and I'm like, these are parents desperate for answers

• 33:59Speaker 00

  all over the world, experiencing the same thing. They're with children who often can't feel their body. They're not practicing Morse code, you know, at night to trick the whole world.

• 34:10Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:10Speaker 00

  It's so out there. That is such a wild claim compared to the actual truth.

• 34:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, the idea that all of these non-speaking kids are all hoaxing everyone with a trick method, it's just such a wild, it's such a wild idea.

• 34:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And especially, you know, I love hearing from the teachers because the teachers, I think, experience this telepathy often more often. And many of them say that they can start to hear it back. Like, it can be two-way telepathy, and I don't think that's possible with a lot of the parents. But when I started hearing from teachers, this type of thing over and over again, it's like, all right, at a certain point, you just have to surrender and stop clinging to your your current paradigm and admit, I might even be wrong. This all might be a little bit wrong.

• 34:57Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. What is Asha?

• 35:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's the American Speech and Hearing Language Association. And they are responsible for crediting speech pathologists. And that's a big deal, because if you have your accreditation, right, you can charge insurance, you can put it on your website, people trust you. And ASHA is kind of the standard bearer right now in saying that they don't accept spelling as a type of communication. They want their speech-language pathologists to teach, because it's not evidence-based, or someone else has to be in the room. Therefore, it's not fully independent, which is always a little bit frustrating, I think, to parents, because sign language isn't fully independent, you know? You need a partner to do that. Interpreters can be in all sorts of rooms, all sorts of events.

• 35:43Speaker 00

  You need a partner to have an interpreter, like you need someone else there. So I think a big objective is to hopefully get ASHA to change their stance, because if they can do that, all these speech-language pathologists can teach spelling without worrying about losing their license, right?

• 35:58Rick Rubin?

  It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable.

• 36:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:01Rick Rubin?

  Have you met the people who run ASHA?

• 36:03Speaker 00

  I haven't. I've certainly met a lot of ASHA members, and many of them are teaching spelling and doing it under the radar, because they see how beneficial it is. But the heads of ASHA, I'm sure I'll meet at some point, as that's one of our goals, is truly get spelling accredited. But I have not met them yet.

• 36:21Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the autism community. How has it been for you to dive into this subculture? Tell me about the psychology of the people in this subculture.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I think non-speakers themselves, I think, are some of the best teachers and kindest people that can really teach us and reflect to us what's possible if we stop caring about ego and our individual drive. You know, most non-speaking individuals who have a difficult time controlling their body, at least as of yet, haven't been able to have careers or make their own money, or get married, or, you know, become like popular in school, or follow their dreams and watch them become realized. So without that agency over their lives to date, I think their concerns are love and unity, and they're looking not out for themselves, because there is no self in that realm, where you have no agency over your life.

• 37:20Speaker 00

  I've had such rich enriching conversations with non-speaking individuals who are truly seeing what's important, 100%, you know? And then the parents, I think, are some of the most powerful forces of love and sacrifice. Just you have someone often dependent on you 24/7. And again, I'm not talking about high-functioning autistic individuals. You know, my brother has Asperger's, like, he's high-functioning. I'm talking about severely, you know, challenging abilities with your body. And those parents, I mean, they give up everything. And it's not just, it's just the social lives, too. Sometimes it's hard to go out if you never know if your kid's gonna be, like, running out the door, eating someone's food, or eating, you know, lots of things and throwing up left and right.

• 38:05Speaker 00

  I mean, there's so many things that the parents have to deal with. So it can be very isolating. And I just think the parents are some of the most, need to be treasured and honored by our society because they're some of the most incredible individuals I've met. You know, and then as far as those I haven't met, just in the broader sense, I mean, you know, I'm just getting a lot of, again, letters. I think people are very happy this is finally out there. Imagine being a parent or teacher talking about this. You're often made to feel like you're silly, or you're imagining this, or you're gullible, or you're just wanting so hard to believe, and you're dismissed. So I'm so happy to know that, you know, they're able to send something now, you know, to their friends and family to listen to, to be like, hey, look, I'm not crazy, you guys. This is real, you know?

• 38:49Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about savants.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, so savant skills are skills that people can acquire from a head injury or sometimes they're born with, and that kind of make no sense as to why they have them because they weren't formally trained in this area and sometimes have never even been exposed to it, right? So it might be like you're excellent at a language, or music, or art, sculpting, math, calendar computation, stuff like that. And I think accidental savants are very interesting to look at because it might be, you know, you were mugged and hit on the head, and when that was done and you came to, you could see fractals and math all over. That happened to a man, I believe, in the Seattle area.

• 39:33Speaker 00

  So, you know, savant skills are something we look at in telepathy tapes because even though we can't explain why they occur and why they happen. You shouldn't know something unless you've been taught it. Right? That's what our materialist paradigm would say. But scientists seem to embrace and know and acknowledge savant skills exist. They're there and they can't account for them.

• 39:52Rick Rubin?

  They do acknowledge them. They don't try to make believe that doesn't exist.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, they do acknowledge them. But Dr. Powell, who's the, you know, neuroscientist in the program. Her theory is, look, we should consider ESP a savant skill. Because for the people that really do have it, they know something they shouldn't know. Just like the other savant skills. They know something they haven't been taught, something in their brain or in the future or at a distance. So if we could just put ESP in that bucket of a savant skill and treat it with the same thoughtfulness and credibility. We could probably get a lot further in studying it.

• 40:29Rick Rubin?

  There was a story you told in the podcast of a boy who could put his hand on a book and glean all of the information in the book from touching it. Can you tell me more about that?

• 40:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, so this is a teacher in England and her student Asher. And Asher was a speaking individual. He had autism, but he was speaking. And, you know, he went through a pretty rough life. His mom died. And on the mom's deathbed, she said, you know, to Jess, this teacher, can you look after him and just take care of him? And Jess became a friend to him his whole life, going, you know, taking train rides with him here and there, all over England and spending time with him. And Asher has since decided not to communicate with words anymore. They're too clunky and cumbersome and weighs him down. But while he was still communicating with words, he was telling Jess some of the most unbelievable things about realms and consciousness and the nature of our reality. And there was a lot of it felt above her head and she was trying to catch up.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  And so she was reading a lot of books. And one of them, on one of their train rides together, she said, look, I'm trying to understand this book. I'm about halfway through. It doesn't make any sense to me. And he said, do you have it with you? And she said, yes. And he said, put it on your hand. And she said, okay. And then he put his hand on it. And she said that she understood all that she had read and everything that was yet to come in the book. It's like all the information in the book entered her in some way. And she said, how do you do that? And he said, I can do that with any, all information is stored in the realms. And he calls it the library sometimes. And he said, I can go there and find out anything you want to know.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  And so she's like, great, can you tell me about consciousness, this reincarnation thing, you know, and she asked a bunch of questions and he would go and come back with details. And then it was interesting because one of the fathers in my podcast who lives in another country, he wrote me afterward and he said, you know, I heard that episode and my son could do something like that, but it's not with a book. He can get the information out of another human being, any information in their, in that other person's mind, they can absorb.

• 42:36Rick Rubin?

  There was a story you told about beaming. A teacher was in a classroom and she could feel a student beaming at her, trying to get her attention. Can you describe that?

• 42:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's Jess, the woman who had the book experience. And what happened to her, you know, she wasn't even trained to be working with this population and she ended up working as a sub, loved it, got her accreditation to work in the school of kids with special language needs and she was in a room with people, some which were non-speakers. At one point she was watching them play on the playground and there was a whole operation going on. Everyone knew where they're supposed to be and what was going on and she's like, they're playing telepathically, how else could they figure this out? So she started kind of clinging into this and kind of acknowledging it in her head. And she talked to one of the students and she said, are you, are you all talking without me knowing, like in your minds? And he said, yes. And she said, I want in on it.

• 43:33Speaker 00

  And I said, okay, we're going to start to teach you how to do it. There were some other things that led her to that point too, like the kids were all laughing class and she said, what are they laughing at? Like, there's no language happening and, you know, stuff like that. So anyway, the first case of it is she was working with a girl and, you know, doing the work together and then all of a sudden hairs stood up on the back of her neck and she could feel someone and she knew exactly who it was. She wasn't turning around and he was angry that he wasn't getting her attention. And then she said, you know, stop it. Like, I will be with Yuna Senkit, but right now I'm finishing this lesson with her. And she said his name. And then the whole class erupted in cheers. And Asher, who was talking at the time, was like, you're getting it. You're getting it. That was a great first step.

• 44:14Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  And then afterward, that child who was beaming at her, she said it's the only child that she was able to ever hear the voice up in her head. Like, you'd fall and she'd hear him saying her name or crying for help. And she'd hear it and then she'd run somewhere. And sure enough, he would have fallen down or got his pants wet or, you know, couldn't open a door.

• 44:40Rick Rubin?

  Let's talk about the different versions of telepathy. When I think of mind reading, I think of the reader looking into the other person's mind to get information. Like, the story that you told of the woman who was thinking about where the Christmas presents were hidden. That would be mind reading in that way, where the kid was reading the mind. She wasn't sending that message. If anything, she was trying to hide that information.

• 45:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:15Rick Rubin?

  And then beaming would be different. That's where someone's sending information out to someone else.

• 45:22Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:23Rick Rubin?

  I think there was another version you talked about where a non-speaker was able to use his mother's eyes to see something.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 45:37Rick Rubin?

  And that's, again, different than mind reading, I would say.

• 45:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that became a big theme throughout all this was, is this actually about telepathy? And I don't even have names for all these things. I just noticed that there's different things that don't seem like mind reading. So one of them was Mia, the first young woman I met when we were doing telepathy tasks, where her, you know, she'd be blindfolded behind a partition. We showed the mom a long number or a word or, you know, picture or number in a book, and Mia could identify it. But then, at one point, her mom was like, well, she can do this popsicle sick thing. And so we'd cover her. Eyes, we'd hand her different colored popsicle sticks and she could take them and put them in the correct piles. You know, we had people try on the blindfold beforehand,

• 46:23Speaker 00

  obviously, and everyone's like, you can't see anything through it. So that's not telepathy. What is that? Is she sensing color coming off of this stick and she knows exactly where the color pile is? Does it have vibrations like rocks? Or is she seeing without eyes? Or seeing through someone else's eyes? And I asked her when this was happening, I said, are you seeing through your mother's eyes? And she said, no, I can see everywhere. And we were like, what does that mean?

• 46:49Rick Rubin?

  So if the mother wasn't in the room, she would still be able to do that?

• 46:53Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 46:54Rick Rubin?

  In that case?

• 46:55Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 46:56Rick Rubin?

  But there are some other cases where there needs to be a person in the room for the non-speaker to have the ability. Is that true?

• 47:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. But just to answer this other telepathy question, like, I think the next moment of it where we thought, what is this, was when we were trying to do telepathy tests with Akil, the next non-speaker, and, you know, same thing. But then when we opened up a random image generator, there were some images that popped up where his mom wouldn't know what it was, but he was sitting across the room and would start writing. So I think the example, we did a few examples of this, but the one in the podcast was, I thought it was a food fight. I thought like mustard and mayonnaise, it was gross. It was like, and then, and even her, the mom was like, ah, what is this? And Akil's across the room started writing paint. And, oh, yeah, that's exactly what it was. And you look closer

• 47:45Speaker 00

  and you can see there's paint bottles and stuff. So that for me and Michael, my DP, the camera guy, were like, well, what is that? Because she's not sending him a thought. Mind reading should be, you're sending a thought. But it seemed like he's reading through her eyes or seeing through her eyes. And then there's a teacher who's asked plenty of her students this, and they say, oh, yeah, I can see through your eyes. And we're starting something called the talk tracks, just to kind of like help unpack all the things that came up in the telepathy tapes. And that episode kind of starts in a classroom in Chicago where what has gone on there since the telepathy tapes came out. And the teacher says, one of my students says he listens to it through my ears. And he'll know what

• 48:29Speaker 00

  happened in the episodes. And I asked his mom, and his mom is not listening. So how does he know what's going on?

• 48:35Rick Rubin?

  Do the non-speakers, if they get to Access the information of the telepathy tapes, does it excite them? Do they view this as a positive?

• 48:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. All the feedback I've been hearing from non-speakers and families is they're overwhelmingly thrilled just that this is out there finally.

• 48:51Rick Rubin?

  It's beautiful.

• 48:51Speaker 00

  Really excited.

• 48:52Rick Rubin?

  What was the ESP enigma?

• 48:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's Dr. Powell's book, The ESP Enigma. That was her first major book written in this, about this type of thing. And when that book came out, she was fined by the Medical Board in Oregon and then fined by the Medical Board in California. She had to go through psychological testing.

• 49:12Rick Rubin?

  Fined for reporting what she notices.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah. And what was interesting is she asked the Medical Board, did you even read it? Or is it just the audacity that I would give my time and credence to something like ESP that's upsetting you? And then when they did read it, she got her license back because they were like, this is sound science. This is really well-written. There's peer-reviewed information. It's great. And she did get her license back. But what she says is financially, emotionally, it was traumatizing. Someone looks her up now on the internet and like, you know, doctor has her license revoked or whatever. It's traumatizing. I mean, it's traumatizing for me to receive some of the blowback. And it's to be expected. It's just to be expected. People don't want this out there, I don't think.

• 49:55Rick Rubin?

  Who were the gatekeepers who were keeping this information silenced?

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Well, in this world, there's a few. Certainly, there's like materialist science, I think, does not want this knowledge out there. And it's been around. I mean, we know that the CIA had a remote viewing telepathy kind of side program that ran for 20 years, you know, Project Grill Flame, Project Stargate. It was held at the Stanford Research Institute mainly. It's all declassified information. So we know that there's credence to this stuff, right? So, okay, so there's the materialism gatekeepers, I think, in science who will really control what goes out in scientific journals, what gets funded for research. Things that make their institution look smart and good and brilliant and sound are the things that get researched.

• 50:43Speaker 00

  And thank God, I mean, I know like even with the UFO kind of movement, more like Harvard and some other reputable institutions are now able to study some anomalous type things. And I hope that starts to happen with this. But then in the spelling world too, you know, spelling right now, you have to pay to learn. I feel like it should be free and accessible everywhere. And it's not. And I think the spelling community in and of itself has to work so hard to try to get this just taught and accepted as a way of communication. And so many of the, you know, kind of stakeholders and big people in the spelling world, they hear about telepathy. It comes up at their conferences. It comes up in emails. It comes up on Facebook. It's deleted. The post is removed.

• 51:28Speaker 00

  It's silenced.

• 51:29Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  And they don't want telepathy brought up because they're afraid it will make it even harder to get spelling to be taken seriously.

• 51:36Rick Rubin?

  Wow. So even the people on your side are against you.

• 51:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 51:41Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 51:42Speaker 00

  But then there's parents, like I've watched all this unfold on one of these big spelling pages on Facebook. And it was fascinating because parents were like, why do you keep taking down news about the telepathy tapes? This is monumental. This is exactly what's been happening in my family, my family, my family. Removed, removed, removed.

• 51:58Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 51:59Speaker 00

  And then finally, someone's like, stop removing it. Let us have the discourse. And it blew up on the spelling community. And you saw people saying, this is such important information. Why can't we talk about this here? This is really critical and this will help our kids feel validated.

• 52:14Rick Rubin?

  Of course.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  Right. And if we know they have this ability, then we should learn to control our own thoughts. How is it harming them that they're hearing us, especially?

• 52:22Rick Rubin?

  Right or wrong.

• 52:24Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 52:24Rick Rubin?

  Why would you silence it?

• 52:25Speaker 00

  I know, yeah.

• 52:26Rick Rubin?

  Why would you silence it? It just, it's unbelievable.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. And what ended up happening out of that threat, I mean, it really blew up and the comments were varied and it was passionate. And then finally, the admins were like, thank you. We love that this discourse happened. We're not going to talk about this on this page anymore. If you want to start your own group where you talk about spelling and these gifts, you can start your own page. And like 800 parents, 800, now it's way more, I think, left. I mean, they're still part of that group, but they started their own group.

• 52:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, fantastic.

• 52:57Speaker 00

  Where they're talking about this stuff.

• 52:58Rick Rubin?

  Fantastic. Explain what materialism is.

• 53:03Speaker 00

  It's the paradigm in which we live in right now. And people don't even question a paradigm because it's like the house you live in. It's just all around you. You don't even question it, right? But materialism is this idea that what is real can be measured and observed. I think in the most basic sense. And so things like assai abilities, which is, you know, things like ESP, remote viewing, telepathy, you know, even just like the sense of being stared at, we know exist. Those things can't exist in a materialistic paradigm. They just can't. So they're thrown out. They're laughed at. They're mocked. You giggle at them.

• 53:41Rick Rubin?

  They're not disproved.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  No.

• 53:43Rick Rubin?

  They're thrown out.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  Right. They're not disproved. They're thrown out. You know, and it's considered paranormal when it's not. It's normal. This is part of being a human being, at least has been. And I think that when you go back and you look at Native Americans and, you know, Aboriginals and, you know, so many different groups, Vikings, I mean, this was Celts. There's so much of this in our history that you knew when someone was thinking about you. There were seers that could tell you where to go hunt. I mean, second sight, all that stuff. It's in all of our literature. It's in all of these old traditions. But I think at some point, you know, science really became, okay, no, we have to become, you know, better than those people that believe that, you know? It was like that white Western academic world that wanted to separate themselves from

• 54:30Speaker 00

  what they saw is like this, like the mystical beliefs of these, like, you know, groups of people that they felt were below them. And so stamping all those, a lot of those mystical beliefs, I think, was part of just like colonization. And that meant like revering science above all else. It had great consequences to us as human beings, I think.

• 54:49Rick Rubin?

  And that's the scientism and the arrogance of scientism, really. How did you get Rupert Sheldrake involved in the project?

• 54:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I met Rupert a few years ago. I think he's brilliant. I think he's such a great advocate for this type of work. It was pretty easy to get him involved. I mean, I think, I remember our first phone call and he said, wow, you know, I'm never really talking to people who want to explore this in a way that they're not automatically poo-pooing it and dismissing it. And he's like, I'm so refreshed to talk to someone who really wants to explore it from a fair point of view. And so that right there, I think, led us to have a few very enjoyable conversations. And one story I just have to share because it's just so great. Rupert was a biologist at Cambridge, one of the best universities in the world, and he didn't believe in any of this stuff either.

• 55:42Speaker 00

  And he had a professor who was knighted by the Queen of England, Queen Elizabeth at the time, for being just a really brilliant academic treasure in the country of England, a scientist, and his name was Sir Rudolph Peters. And in the tea room once at Cambridge, Sir Rudolph was telling Rupert about a boy who was blind, but when the mom was looking at the eye chart, the boy could read the eye chart. They took him out of the room, he couldn't do it. Brought the mom back in the room and he could do it. And it felt as though he was looking through her eyes. And Rupert really respected Sir Rudolph Peters, you know, this knighted scientist. And he thought, well, if he's saying it, this must be true. But I want to look at some experiments.

• 56:23Speaker 00

  So Rupert, you know, looked at some of the research that Sir Rudolph Peters did, where they separated this son and this mom, and they did telepathy tests over the phone, miles apart. And again, it was pretty consequential research. And after that Rupert pivoted. And he's a biologist, but he changed much of his career to looking at the biological base of telepathy in the animal kingdom. And he's such a pillar to, I think, the work that I was doing and trying to understand.

• 56:53Rick Rubin?

  What is "poink"?

• 56:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay, so one of the teachers in Philadelphia was, I asked her about the hill. And she's like, "I don't know, I've never asked about the hill." She's like, "But I know they're communicating in groups because there's things that will pop up as like a common shared term that I've never heard." She's like, "So one of them said 'poink' the other day, and I think, you know, used it in the term like 'play.'" And then she thought that was strange. And then, and then like a different person she was working with not ever had come into contact with this other young man, and I think this person was much older, used the same word, and then it came up again. So she's like, "That type of thing will happen where they're using a common word that isn't

• 57:37Speaker 00

  one of our words, like isn't a word that we use in standard English, but it will feel like, how did that spread if they don't know each other and they can't talk and they don't have email and they're not on Facebook?"

• 57:49Rick Rubin?

  Amazing. Tell me about the ability to predict the future.

• 57:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, and, you know, I think that what I have found with many of the non-speakers is there's a variety of gifts, and I think just like some people are excellent at basketball and some people can barely dribble, it's like, it ranges. But there are few who seem to be able to predict the future and have said things like there's a young girl in Wisconsin and she started talking about the school shooting in Texas the week before it happened, and she didn't know, the mom didn't know where this was, she was just saying a boy in the South is gonna kill kids and then be killed by the police. And she said, "Okay, you know, and like, do you know where, do you know how, and, you know, what do you do with that information? Call the FBI and just say, 'My daughter's saying this.'"

• 58:40Speaker 00

  So I think she did put it somewhere or sent it into some site and, you know, like two days later, the school shooting happened in Texas and, you know, another girl...

• 58:52Speaker 00

  In Arizona, she really can sense when like a big world event, a tragic event has happened and then it will happen. And then I asked, actually, I learned about her through her minister at the church. And I said, you know, was there ever an example of something specific, not like having to do with like a world crisis? And she said, oh, yeah. She said her dad was going to slip on ice. And we thought that was pretty, like, we could dismiss that because they live in Arizona and there's never ice here. And they don't really travel that much because they have a non-speaking child and it's hard. And then the dad, like, you know, a few months later, randomly, never happens, but he had to go on a business trip. He slipped on black ice and broke his hip. And that's exactly what the girl said, he was going to break his hip. So, you know, the parents are dealing with that type of stuff quite often.

• 59:34Rick Rubin?

  There was a teacher who talked about seeing a student's light body rise above their body.

• 59:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, so that's a teacher named Suzie. And she, when she first got into the work with autism, she was a speech pathologist and she had never, autism was new, really. There weren't many people with it. And that was kind of a blessing because she didn't have any preconceived notions of what to think or what to do when she walked into this room with this severely autistic individual. And so she just walked into this room, it was just him and her, and she sat down and kind of thought, I'm just going to wait until you're ready, until you're good, and we'll, you know, we'll see how this goes. And she said, then she saw a light body, what looked like his body, floating above his head, but attached to him still with like a little string. And she couldn't, you know, kept rubbing her eyes and looking away, and it was always

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  there. And then he expressed to her what she says was telepathically, like, you know, this is what you're going to do. You're going to help me get my light body into my body. You're going to help merge the two. And then that became her work. And he really explained to her what he needed, like tuning forks, one that was tuned to the resonance of his quote unquote soul or light body, one that was tuned to the resonance of his body, being them at the same time, and like, he could go together. He gave her a lot of tips like that, which then Suzie has written about and now teaches classes on, so to help other families.

• 1:01:00Rick Rubin?

  Did you get the impression that he allowed her to see his light body?

• 1:01:08Speaker 00

  I don't know, because it is like, was it really a light body? Or is he doing something with her consciousness? Or was she ready and like, could receive this work? Or was it an allowance? I don't know, and I don't think she knows either.

• 1:01:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. And how did it work with the tuning forks?

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  It worked. And she's since done that more, you know? Because I think so much of it with these individuals with apraxia is integration between like, your mind and your body, not feeling your body, not knowing that you have a body, not feeling inside of your body. And how frustrating. I think that's where the base of the gifts come from, though. I mean, if we do have a consciousness or soul that can exist without our fleshy baggage here, how cool, what you're capable of, you know?

• 1:01:50Rick Rubin?

  So one tuning fork resonates with the light body, and one tuning fork resonates with the physical body. And if you ring them together, the sound can bring them together? Is that your understanding of it?

• 1:02:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like the merging of the two sounds merges the two together. But she said it was really tricky to figure out the right resonance. Like, she was constantly bringing new tuning forks, new tuning forks, new tuning forks, and then they found the one that was right.

• 1:02:18Rick Rubin?

  Do you think it's possible, now again, this is hypothetical because you don't know, is it possible neurotypical children can learn to visit the hill early enough in life, maybe when they're pre-verbal, if they're exposed to the ideas?

• 1:02:37Speaker 00

  I would think so.

• 1:02:39Rick Rubin?

  Seems like that'd be good for the world.

• 1:02:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it would. It would. And, you know, I'm about to drop like, the first bonus episode, which is something called the Talk Tracks. And it's about Dan, who was volunteering in one of these classrooms for the last three months, visiting the hill. And it's interesting to hear his perspective on what it's like and how it was like for him. And I have been told by a lot of parents, the hills be inundated by neurotypical people trying to join. And it's like a threat in a way, because it's important to have your own safe spaces. But I also believe that the hill is well-protected, and the non-speakers there are fine. They don't need our help. I think they're strongly protected, and it's their space. So I think you're not going to come in unless you're welcome. I do believe that.

• 1:03:24Speaker 00

  But yeah, getting younger individuals there earlier would be really cool.

• 1:03:29Rick Rubin?

  You mentioned someone who was verbal and decided to stop using verbal language because telepathy was so far superior.

• 1:03:38Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:03:39Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about that.

• 1:03:41Speaker 00

  Essentially, at one point in his life, he said he doesn't want the language is so tricky, it's cumbersome to form the words in your brain and figure out what word is going to represent the symbol and then try to get your muscles in your mouth to work it and speak it. And then that has a vibration that like exits your mouth. And all of that together is an awful lot to motor plan and to think about. And it's really a lot of work just to communicate. And he said he'd rather just communicate telepathically from now on because it's a much easier and simpler form. And I think that was one of the, I think, first like, what? When I was working on this project was the first parents I met, which was Mia's parents.

• 1:04:26Speaker 00

  Mia's mom was saying, you know, Mia prefers me to talk to her in my mind. If I'm asking her what she wants for dinner, she prefers me to say it in my mind. And then she'll answer it. And then more parents said that. And then the teacher started saying it. And, you know, it's easier in the classroom if I just ask it with my mind and not with words because the words, it's too much. There's too many things. Like, why do you need them? If we can do it through the mind, that's easier. So that's a common theme, the telepathy's preferred.

• 1:04:51Rick Rubin?

  And it makes sense that I can say a sentence to you and you could picture what I'm saying and what you're picturing could be completely different than what I'm picturing because the nature of language is so imperfect.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, you know, in episode eight, we meet this young man named Kyle who never learned to spell. He talks to his mom in dreams. He shows up to her. And he also figured out how to communicate telepathically. It takes work on the mom's side. She's got to totally empty out and be ready. But she explained it. She said, you know, with words, like if you say the word Thanksgiving, right? It's like you said the word Thanksgiving. But if Kyle sends you that telepathically, you receive the smells and like sleeping in your childhood bed and the football game in the background and the cold weather outside and people's shoes by the door and, you know, your funny aunt in the kitchen who's always complaining about this. And, you know, whatever it is, like you get the whole picture,

• 1:05:46Speaker 00

  the whole feeling, the whole experience of Thanksgiving.

• 1:05:50Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 1:05:55Rick Rubin?

  Do you think it's possible that the reason autism rates are going up exponentially, is it possible that it's not a defect, but it's actually a more advanced form of humanity? That this state where telepathy is, I'll say, normal, is really an advanced form? Is that possible?

• 1:06:24Speaker 00

  I mean, I think anything's possible, for sure. You know, it's so tricky, right? Because I think for so many non-speakers that can't control their body, it's so frustrating. It's frustrating for them, it's frustrating for their families. And I want to give a lot of space and grace to the fact that it's not a cakewalk. However, there are certainly non-speakers who have said, "I chose this. My parents chose it. We're here for a reason. We're here to help humanity evolve. You need to listen to us. We have a lot we can teach." So, you know, all I can go off of is what individuals have told me.

• 1:07:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:01Speaker 00

  And certainly not every single non-speaker has said that, but quite a few have.

• 1:07:06Rick Rubin?

  But is the reason that it's so difficult because the society isn't set up for it? It's not that it's the problem. It's that the way society treats it is the problem.

• 1:07:18Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah. I think that's right. I think that's right. And if we made some major shifts in society, yeah.

• 1:07:26Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the mind-reading parrot.

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's a great story. So, you know, we were doing telepathy tests with individuals where we show them a card or a picture, and whoever they're telepathic with will tell you what that person's looking at. And Rupert Sheldrake said that he had tested a parrot that had this ability. And I said, "What?" You know? And he said, "After my book, 'Dogs Know When Their Owners Are Coming Home,' came out, a woman reached out to him, and she said, 'I have a parrot. I live in New York.' And she's, I think, since moved. But he can speak so many words, and he's always learning new words. And if I teach him a new word, or if he doesn't have a word for it, he'll put two words together that make sense. And he uses words accurately, and we can have conversations.

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  And he can tell what's going on in my mind." And Rupert said, "Okay, wait, I think I need to go..." Test this out and meet you, but explain what you mean by that. And she said, well, if I'm dreaming, for instance, I'm having a dream of saying I'm being chased by a bear. The parrot will start screaming, you know, watch out the bear, you know, and it'll wake her up. Or if she's looking through a magazine and she's looking at a nice red purse or something, the parrot might be like, ooh, I love the red purse. I mean, just the most unbelievable thing. So Rupert went to go test this and check it out. Sure enough, she was flipping through a magazine, looking at pictures and the parrot was able to say what she was looking at. So Rupert thought, okay, I'm gonna come back and test this real.

• 1:08:52Speaker 00

  And, you know, Dr. Sheldrake put, who's Rupert, put a bird in one room, I think even on the floor, lots of cameras around. Put Amy, the owner, in a different room, lots of cameras around. They would show Amy something and all the time code was, you know, matched and the bird would respond to what she was looking at. Not every time, but almost every time. And it would be pretty remarkable. Like one was a couple walking on a beach and the birds are going, look at your naked body, you know, that's, that's a great naked body. It was kind of funny. And then, you know, one was a person putting their head out the window, hailing a cab. And the parrot is, you know, watch your head. If you're gonna stick your head out, you gotta watch your head, you know, just responding perfectly to these images.

• 1:09:38Rick Rubin?

  That's wild. Oh, tell me the story of Lawrence Anthony and the elephants.

• 1:09:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Lawrence Anthony was more of an animal rights, ecology type activist, lived in Africa. And, you know, he got reports of all these elephants kind of terrorizing a village. And he tried to bring them to the reserve that he had opened. And, and it took a long time to get all these elephants to trust him to get them on the reserve. But once they did, he was a friend to these elephants. And, you know, after a while, the elephants became pretty comfortable. They had many square miles to roam, so he lived not on the preserve anymore. He kind of lived farther off, more in town. And at some point, and all these details are a little fuzzy, but I'm just doing, recounting it to the best of my ability. And, and when he died, pretty quickly, the elephants started walking and they surrounded his house and they stood there for, I forgot how long.

• 1:10:30Speaker 00

  I think it was like three days and it's kind of the elephant grieving. Process that they do. And, you know, how did the elephants know he died? But they went and they grieved for him. And the thing is, the story doesn't end there. The following year, and this went on for five years, on the day of his death, the elephants would migrate and go to his house and pay their respects and then leave. And so when you think about telepathy in the animal kingdom, and we remember that we're animals, it's just, it's not too far fetched that we can do this.

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  Wild. Can I play you a song?

• 1:11:08Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  Okay. This relates to the podcast.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  It's not that easy being green. Having to spend each day the color of the leaves. When I think it could be nicer being red or yellow or gold or something much more colorful like that.

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  It's not easy being green. It seems you blend in with so many other ordinary things. And people tend to pass you over because you're not standing out like flashy sparklers on the water or stars in the sky.

• 1:12:20Speaker 02

  But green is the color of spring. And green can be cool and friendly like.

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  And green can be big like an ocean or important like a mountain or tall like a tree.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  When green is all there is to be,

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  it could make you wonder why, but why wonder why wonder? I am green and it'll do fine. It's beautiful and I think it's what I want to be.

• 1:13:17Rick Rubin?

  How does that song relate to the podcast?

• 1:13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there was a young girl who lives in Wisconsin. Her name's Amelia. And when she first started spelling, she started writing a lot of poems that really showed that she was aware of what kids think about her. Sometimes the kind of ugly things that they might think or feel or fear they might be. And she started explaining to her mom that she was lonely. And her mom said there was other things that would really illustrate that. Like she would listen to that song often on repeat. And it kind of became her theme song, that it's not easy being green.

• 1:13:56Rick Rubin?

  There was another kid who wrote songs telepathically.

• 1:14:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:14:03Rick Rubin?

  Can you talk about that?

• 1:14:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's a young man named Kyle and he lives in England. And he and his mom never learned to spell because they telepathically communicate through dreams and through just their minds. And she didn't know he had any music ability. But when he was about 20, she thought, I'll take him to music therapy. That could be a cool thing to try out. So they do that. And he could play almost any instrument. And not only that, but he could play almost any song. And he had perfect pitch. And his mom was just so shocked. And so this became a thing, you know, the music, what became a big part of his life. And then he started coming to her in dreams and saying, Mom, I want you to help me write this song.

• 1:14:49Speaker 00

  And this is the music and these are the words. And she'd wake up and do the best she could. And he helps her get into lucid dreaming. And when they're in this lucid dream, he'll tell her things. And then he'd give her a whole nother bunch of lyrics, or the music, or the sound. And then she would write it, write it all down. And then usually the next day, when he was fully awake too, she'd say, was this right? Was this right? And then they started recording them. They'd go into a studio. And she said, in that moment too, like, we know if we have it right. Because he'll start going and sometimes expanding and doing incredible things with the instrument he's playing. And other times, if it's not right, he just kind of gets catatonic and is, nope. You guys, you don't have it right. You know, so it's a remarkable thing, to work almost in channeling music through someone else.

• 1:15:33Rick Rubin?

  Amazing. What is RPM?

• 1:15:38Speaker 00

  That's the Rapid Prompting Method, and that's one of the spelling to communicate methods that came after facilitated communication. And that requires no touch. You point to letters.

• 1:15:48Rick Rubin?

  I remember you mentioned that the eyes go first and then the finger follows.

• 1:15:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, yeah, for the most part. I mean, it's interesting, because just like, I can type on my keyboard without looking. I think there are plenty of spellers who eventually get to that point. And some spellers have synesthesia, and they'll say that they see a color. And if they just hit the color, they'll do it right, you know? But they did a experiment, I believe, that with Vikram Jhaasal, I think was his name, at the University of Virginia. And he did an experiment where he was watching what someone was spelling, but he'd see where their eyes went first. And the eyes would go the letter, followed by their hand. And that's how he was able to prove intention. These individuals clearly know what they're spelling.

• 1:16:30Rick Rubin?

  I wonder if there's a way to build a technology where, based on where the eyes go, if the words could get spelled that way, instead of having to point. Seems like it would be much less of a chore for the speller.

• 1:16:46Speaker 00

  Absolutely. And I think they're working on that.

• 1:16:48Rick Rubin?

  I hope so.

• 1:16:49Speaker 00

  I've heard remblings of that somewhere.

• 1:16:51Rick Rubin?

  I know that technology already exists. They use it in cars, like, to tell if you're falling asleep when you're driving.

• 1:16:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, right.

• 1:16:59Rick Rubin?

  Do you think homeschooling curriculum for non-speakers could be created, so that this work could travel outside of the institutions?

• 1:17:10Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure. I think it's just finding someone to do it, right? Because often, parents have to work, or two parents have to work. You know, so it's hard to ask, I mean, just any parent who lived through COVID, like, having to sometimes juggle a job and teaching your kid. It's nice of a break. I mean, it's just nice. Everyone needs a break, I think, right? And some parents are superheroes and can do it all. But maybe homeschooling would work better. I know this has happened in quite a few cases where it's like a tutor comes to the home, or a homeschool teacher. And we know that AI is going to be replacing a lot of jobs. So that would be a really cool job to equip a bunch of spelling homeschool teachers.

• 1:17:47Rick Rubin?

  Who is Marjorie Walcott?

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I think a bunch of scientists who are frustrated by the materialist paradigm and have stumbled into something that has told them it's incorrect, have decided to kind of go and start their own academic academy. And Marjorie Walcott is the president of the Post-Materialist Academy of the Sciences, where they understand that materialism might be incorrect. And more and more scientists are kind of joining up on that cause every year.

• 1:18:19Rick Rubin?

  What is the Gansfeld telepathy experiment?

• 1:18:23Speaker 00

  The Gansfeld experiments truly try to reduce sensory input in order to test for telepathy. And typically, for a Gansfeld experiment, you take like ping pong balls that are cut in half, and you put them over your eyes, and you put kind of like a soft red light through them. You put white noise in your ears. You relax for 10, 15 minutes, and that will get you into a state where you're like a kind of this heightened awareness state. And when they get people into that state, this is how the state they get most people into do telepathy experiments. And they're showing someone in a different room, maybe, you know, a train car, or a butterfly, or whatever it is. When people are in that Gansfeld state, they're more likely to be able to receive the telepathy.

• 1:19:06Speaker 00

  And in labs, I think they're accurate like 25, 33% of the time, something like that. But if you look on YouTube, people have done the Gansfeld experiment at home. And apparently, it's pretty creepy. If you do it for a long time, people will say they see other places, they see other realms, they see other things. You get really cold. I've never done it, but it sounds intense.

• 1:19:27Rick Rubin?

  After all the research you've done, have you come to an organized worldview of what you think is going on?

• 1:19:36Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I mean, I would say how my worldview has changed is that I do believe consciousness is fundamental, and it's the base of everything, that wherever this consciousness resides, that baseline is more real than here, that there is something more real than here, that this is this 3D world, and we're here and we're learning stuff and creating stuff, but it's all going back into this consciousness field. And that consciousness survives the body. And I think, you know, a lot of the scientists that I've been talking to, they all will say at the end of the day, they think it's like a simulation theory. And but talking to a lot of the non-speakers, spirituality is a big, big part of all of it. You know, they talk about God and the source and love and heaven.

• 1:20:19Speaker 00

  And I mean, they talk about all these things from a universal point of view, too. It's not, you know, denominational. But, you know, I bring this up in episode nine, that if you think about what religion is, it's kind of the same as the simulation theory. It's just using different words, right? We were created by something. There is something more real than here that we will go to later. You know, that like we have these bodies, but that's not, it's an avatar. It's not the real you. The real you is like a soul inside of you. So, or, you know, a program or whatever. But like, it's the same, it's a lot of the same idea, it's just with different language.

• 1:20:58Rick Rubin?

  There was a phrase in one of the episodes, "Feel into my heart." Do you remember that? Tell me about that.

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  There's quite a few teachers who have been able to link up telepathically. And it's remarkable. And I feel like most of them are given some sort of directive right before it happens. And in this particular case, this teacher was told, "Feel into my heart." Like, if you feel into my heart, you'll be able to connect. And we can do this. We can communicate this way. And I think that's a common theme is, you know, I guess it's getting your head and mindset and vibration to set to someone, to tune to someone's heart.

• 1:21:45Rick Rubin?

  It's interesting that the choice is the heart and not mine, because you think of mind reading, the heart's not involved in mind reading, but maybe it is.

• 1:21:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it is.

• 1:21:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  Because I think the baseline of all of this is love, and that's what the non-speakers would say, too, is that like the telepathy, these gifts don't work if there's not like a loving, safe space. And love seems to be the through line.

• 1:22:11Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about communication with those who've passed.

• 1:22:15Speaker 00

  You know, John Paul is, was featured in episode four, and he has a girlfriend Lily, that good friend Houston, and he dies, and he continues to speak to his friends on the hill. But that's an epic story, I think, in the project, because people got to know John Paul. So it's like they know him before and after. But for so many non-speakers, they're often reporting, communicating with those who've passed on. It's not an isolated event. It's quite often that they'll say, oh, well, Auntie is saying this, and this great person, grandma from India, is saying this, and I have this message to pass along, and it's very detailed information about something they shouldn't know about. So this ability to communicate and link with and accurately convey messages from the other side

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  is really widespread within this community.

• 1:23:03Rick Rubin?

  There was a phrase, spirits in the room.

• 1:23:07Rick Rubin?

  What did that refer to?

• 1:23:10Speaker 00

  One of the teachers in the project,

• 1:23:14Speaker 00

  she said that the telepathy wasn't the first thing she noticed. It was spirits, that one of her students came in and started saying there were spirits in her classroom. And then the next day, another boy did, and another child did. And then they were all talking about all these different spirits, and who was there, and what they wanted to convey. And then like, you know, she kind of sees different children and different people throughout the course of a few weeks. It's not like a school. It's like people have time to go talk to her. And then the next week, someone's like, you opened a portal. Why did you open a portal in here? And she, this teacher, is like, what is going on? I mean, this was really weird for her. For 15 years, she's worked with these kids, and none of this has come out. And since that happened, then they started talking about remote viewing and telepathy,

• 1:23:57Speaker 00

  and it's gotten more complex for her, not less. But the baseline was the spirits in the room.

• 1:24:04Rick Rubin?

  Tell me how belief plays into all of this.

• 1:24:08Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I feel like this has been mocked and also noted throughout all of psi experiments and tests and stuff is that to a degree, you have to believe the non-speakers and believe in their gifts for them to appear. I don't know if that's always the case and not with every individual, but certainly so many of the individuals who start showing this leprosy or said that my parent was finally ready to hear it, or they were ready to accept it. And which makes you think like they know if they're reading their minds, whether or not they believe them or would believe them. And it's humiliating when you tell someone something and they don't believe you, right? Or if someone's out to get you

• 1:24:48Speaker 00

  or prove you wrong. So belief helps. And I think we know this to be true. It's not some wooby wooby thing. We believe in the placebo effect. We know that if you believe something, it's more likely to help something happen. Efficacy and belief is important in our human experience, and it's really important when it comes to these abilities.

• 1:25:07Rick Rubin?

  Makes sense also in quantum physics, when something is seen, it performs differently than when it's not seen.

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:25:15Rick Rubin?

  So in a way, belief is like being seen.

• 1:25:18Speaker 00

  Mm hmm. Yeah.

• 1:25:19Rick Rubin?

  Because if you don't believe something, you're not really open to seeing it.

• 1:25:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:25:24Rick Rubin?

  Then it can't happen.

• 1:25:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's exactly right.

• 1:25:29Rick Rubin?

  How is telling a story in a podcast different than doing it in a documentary film?

• 1:25:36Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, it's a little easier, actually, because you don't have to be worrying about the visuals every step of the way. And you can jump in as a narrator, which is like amazing that you can do that and fill in some blanks. So in those ways, I really enjoyed it. What I was not expecting, I mean, I was so devastated when I pitched this as a four part series and didn't get picked up. I would thought this was like the most important news in the world, you know? And the podcast to me was like, oh, it's like, what? This is how I have to get it out there so I don't let down the families? And like, you know, I was afraid of like dying in a car crash and that this information would just like never get out there. So I just did the podcast as like a Hail Mary. And the thing that's kind of neat about it, though, is I think there's an intimate way that people receive podcasts.

• 1:26:19Speaker 00

  And if I'm watching a movie or something or docu-series, it's often on a plane and you're busy, you're being interrupted, or you're with your spouse or kids or whatever. You're on a couch and you're eating and there's this and there's that, you know, all sorts of stuff. And it's like with a podcast, it's like you're often on a walk or you're driving.

• 1:26:33Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:34Speaker 00

  And you're alone. And you're alone with your thoughts and you're intimately like speaking to someone. And I do wonder, of course, now I think the non-speakers have a hand in everything, you know, if like, it was always intended to become a podcast first because intimately, you can get this information into people when they're the most able to hear it.

• 1:26:55Rick Rubin?

  Mm-huh.

• 1:26:56Speaker 00

  Whereas with a movie, it could just toss aside and next, next, next, next, you know? So I do think there was like an intimate quality to this, that I didn't know that this medium could touch people in such a way. And boy, can it.

• 1:27:37Speaker 03

  Tetragrammatin is a podcast. Tetragrammatin is a website. Tetragrammatin is a whole world of knowledge.

• 1:27:56Speaker 04

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• 1:28:39Speaker 04

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• 1:28:44Speaker 04

  Take a breath, and see where you are drawn.