Superphiz | Layer Zero

Superphiz, above all, is a community member. Phiz rallies the troops across the Rocket Pool and r/EthFinance communities, and is passionate about ETH staking. Self-describing as the beacon chain community health consultant, Phiz is on a holy mission to promote crypto values. Phiz is a perfect example of a grassroots individual making a huge impact without a technical background. It’s all Layer Zero, and it always has been. ------ 📣 METAMASK | The Easiest Buy in Crypto https://bankless.cc/MetaMask ------ 🚀 SUBSCRIBE TO NEWSLETTER: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/ 🎙️ SUBSCRIBE TO PODCAST: http://podcast.banklesshq.com/ ------ BANKLESS SPONSOR TOOLS: ⚖️ ARBITRUM | SCALED ETHEREUM https://bankless.cc/Arbitrum ❎ ACROSS | BRIDGE TO LAYER 2 https://bankless.cc/Across 🏦 ROCKET POOL | DECENTRALIZED ETH STAKING https://bankless.cc/RocketPool 👻 AAVE V3 | LEND & BORROW CRYPTO https://bankless.cc/aave ⚡️ MAKER DAO | THE DAI STABLECOIN https://bankless.cc/MakerDAO 🦁 BRAVE | THE BROWSER NATIVE WALLET https://bankless.cc/Brave ------ Topics Covered: 0:00 Intro 3:30 Peak Phiz Performance 6:34 Decentralized Background 10:41 Ethereum vs Moloch 16:34What’s at Stake? 20:44 We are Layer Zero 24:08 Changing the Culture 28:38 Can We Solve This Problem? 33:30 Using Incentives 43:53 Governance and Values 47:23 The Centralization Limit 55:30 Responsibility Games 59:39 Psychology & Politics 1:03:00 The Role of Bankless 1:08:24 A Unique Position 1:14:14 Bullish 1:18:50 Predicting the Cycles 1:21:00 Talking Shop 1:24:50 A Community Member 1:27:27 Phiz’s Priorities 1:28:31 Closing Remarks ------ Resources: Phiz on Twitter: https://twitter.com/superphiz?s=20&t=wTrV-ik6VJMUfUFGZixC5A https://twitter.com/superphiz?s=20&t=wTrV-ik6VJMUfUFGZixC5A Rocket Pool: https://rocketpool.net/ r/ethfinance: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/ Project Sunshine: https://ethsunshine.com/ Episode with Hal Press: https://shows.banklesshq.com/p/betting-the-fund-on-the-merge-hal?s=w#details ----- Not financial or tax advice. This channel is strictly educational and is not investment advice or a solicitation to buy or sell any assets or to make any financial decisions. This video is not tax advice. Talk to your accountant. Do your own research. Disclosure. From time-to-time I may add links in this newsletter to products I use. I may receive commission if you make a purchase through one of these links. Additionally, the Bankless writers hold crypto assets. See our investment disclosures here: https://newsletter.banklesshq.com/p/bankless-disclosures

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  If you have an ether and you want it to be valuable, then you have to act in ways that bring value to the network.

• 0:09David Hoffman?

  Welcome to Layer Zero. Layer Zero is a podcast of unscripted conversations with the people that make up the Ethereum community. Crypto is built by code, but is composed of people, and each individual member of the crypto community has their own story to tell. Cyberpunk's understood that the code they write impacts the people that use it, and Layer Zero focuses on the people behind the code, because Ethereum is people all the way down, and it always has been. Today on Layer Zero, I'm talking with SuperFiz, and SuperFiz is a community member of a number of different parts of the Ethereum community: the RETH Finance subreddit, the Rocketpool community, the ETH Staking community. He's just fascinated by ETH Staking, and so I would call him an ETH Staking expert, although he probably wouldn't like that "expert" title. He's just a community member through and through, and living and breathing and dying

• 0:54David Hoffman?

  for decentralized protocols. And SuperFiz is worried at this present moment. He calls Ethereum "under attack." And so what is Ethereum "under attack" by? This is the conversation of liquid staking derivatives, which has been a very significant conversation in the Ethereum space lately, and how liquid staking derivatives, things like tokenized staked ETH tokens, like staked ETH from Lido, RETH from Rocketpool, we talk about the conversation of how liquid staking derivatives might come to centralized Ethereum, and what we can do about that. And so you guys are looking to learn more about that conversation, this is a great place to get started.

• 1:35David Hoffman?

  We also talk about other things, like how Superphiz got started with Bitcoin, even before getting into Ethereum, we got started with Bitcoin, and how he felt that the Bitcoin community let him down, and the lessons that he has learned from that era of his life, and how he has applied that forward to Ethereum. So I hope you guys enjoy this fantastic interview with Superphiz, from Rocketpool, from ETH Finance, from ETH Stakers, right after we get to some of the fantastic sponsors that make this show possible. Rocketpool is your friendly decentralized Ethereum staking protocol. You can stake your ETH with Rocketpool and get our ETH in return, allowing you to stake your ETH and use it in DeFi at the same time. You can get 4% on your ETH by staking it with Rocketpool, but you can get even more by running a node. Rocketpool is the only staking provider

• 2:19David Hoffman?

  that allows anyone to permissionlessly join their network of validating nodes. Running a Rocketpool node is easier to set up than running a solo node, and you only need 16 ETH to get started. Why would you do this? You get an extra 15% staking commission on the pooled ETH, so your APY is boosted. So if you're bullish ETH staking, you can increase your APY and get some extra tokens by adding your node to the decentralized Rocketpool network, which currently has over 1,000 independent validators. It's yield farming, but with Ethereum nodes. You can get started at rocketpool.net and also join the Rocketpool community in their Discord. You can find me hanging out there sometimes in the chat, so I'll see you there. MakerDAO is the OG DeFi protocol. The MakerDAO produces DAI, the industry's most battle-tested and resilient stablecoin. Using Maker, you don't need to sell your collateral if you need liquidity. Instead, you can spin up a Maker Vault

• 3:03David Hoffman?

  and use your collateral to mint DAI directly. With Maker, the power to mint new money is in your hands. The Maker protocol is extremely hardened and operated by one of the most experienced DAOs in existence. They've been here since the beginning. They've seen it all, and so you can mint DAI with the assurance that your collateral is safe. Soon, Maker will be present on all chains and L2s, so minting DAI can take place on Oasis.app, Xerion, Zapper, or any other DeFi protocol that you use. Follow Maker on Twitter, @makerdao, and learn from the oldest and most resilient DAO in existence.

• 3:35David Hoffman?

  Aave is the leading decentralized liquidity protocol, and now Aave V3 is here. Aave V3 has powerful new features to enable you to get the most out of DeFi, including isolation mode, which allows for many more markets to be launched with more exotic collateral types, and also efficiency mode, which allows for higher loan-to-value ratios. And of course, portals, allowing users to port their Aave position across all of the networks that Aave operates on, like Polygon, Phantom, Avalanche, Arbitrum, Optimism, and Harmony. The beautiful thing about Aave is that it's completely open-source, decentralized, and governed by its community, enabling a truly bankless future for us all. To get your first crypto-collateralized loan, get started at ave.com. That's A-A-B-E dot com. And also check out the Aave Protocol Governance Forums

• 4:18David Hoffman?

  to see what more than 100,000 DAO members are all robbing about at governance.aave.com. What's up, SuperFist? How's it going?

• 4:27Speaker 00

  How are you, David?

• 4:28David Hoffman?

  Good, really good, man. The REith Finance and Rocketpool communities are really stoked to have you on here, which makes me stoked.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, I mean, those are my people. I, um, that's where I live. I've been, I've been an REith Finance guy for, you know, since day one, and ETH Trader before that, and ETH Mining before that, and Ethereum before that. So, you know, I really feel comfortable with those communities, and I'm really glad that they like me.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  It does. I mean, it's important.

• 5:07David Hoffman?

  Before we, we were talking about the show before this, but before we go any further, you sweating, bro?

• 5:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, I make no secret, like, I do this regimen. Like, I have, like, peak fizz performance, because normally, you know, I'm a slug. And so, if I know I'm gonna do something like this, if it's like a launch call, or if it's, if it's an opportunity to speak, then, like, maybe a couple hours before, I'll take a nap, and then I'll get up and go for a really hard run. And then I will snag the forbidden coffee, and it kind of lets me, like, be my favorite self. So, this is, you're gonna get my favorite self, I hope.

• 5:54David Hoffman?

  So you're telling me that this is peak, what peak performance looks like?

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's sad, like, this is all, like, you think, I know, right? Like, like, oh, so my, um, I have a goal, that I'm not gonna use foul language during a recording. Because I've learned the value of family-friendly media. Like, I really want this to be something that, that anyone can play anywhere and feel comfortable playing with. So I'm, I was gonna make a joke and say, I'm not gonna say...

• 6:26David Hoffman?

  I definitely got in trouble for having a potty mouth on the weekly rollups. So now I try and keep it contained, but sometimes, sometimes I let it out regardless. All right. So Fizz, I went to the ETH Finance subreddit where you basically live, as far as I can tell, and told them that you're coming on bankless and so they should drop some questions. So I got, I got a bunch of questions from the, from your friends and family over at ETH Finance. And so I also have my own questions, but I kind of want to start with theirs. So this first one, I think is also the question I would have asked anyways, coming from Mazwanos. What drives you to be so involved in Ethereum's decentralization?

• 7:04Speaker 00

  I, I've been a part of failed networks. I, I've been a part of other L1s that allowed themselves to be captured or followed the wrong goals or drank their own Kool-Aid and sold out on their core principles. And as someone who's been involved with Ethereum for a long time, I, I've gone to this place where I don't want that to happen to Ethereum. Like I want Ethereum to, to survive and it's something that I'm willing to put energy into. Like it's that valuable to me. So whatever it takes, like whatever I need to do to organize the community, to empower people,

• 7:49Speaker 00

  to educate people, then I'm going to do what I can to help Ethereum be successful.

• 7:55David Hoffman?

  What L1s were you a part of before you became part of the Ethereum community?

• 7:59Speaker 00

  I affectionately call it Blockstream Coin or Grandpa. I, I'm one of those people, I don't, I don't like to, to give too much name credit to things that I'm not deeply involved with or aligned with. But you know, there was another cryptocurrency, I think it was founded in about 2008 or 2009. And it was all the rage for a while. It is, it's a proof of work chain. I think it still exists. I'm not really sure. I haven't heard much about it lately.

• 8:29David Hoffman?

  Really slow block times.

• 8:32Speaker 00

  But you know, I love.

• 8:34David Hoffman?

  I know these types.

• 8:35Speaker 00

  Have you heard of this one? I loved that network. But I realized first that the community was, the community wasn't always sour. The community became sour and the chain became captured by people who were not aligned with the decentralization ethos. I mourn the loss of that project. It's funny, a lot of people don't even know it's dead, but I mourn the loss of it. And I like Ethereum enough that I don't, I don't want to stand by and let the same thing happen again.

• 9:09David Hoffman?

  Were you on the subreddit during the early days of said particular chain where a lot of that like, because like it went through a fork in the road where it could have stayed community aligned or it could have gotten captured by schmuck schmeme?

• 9:22Speaker 00

  I actually have, I have a post that I absolutely love. It's from, it's from the time that I left that kind of recounted, there are like 16 events that led up to, I love you guys, but I'm leaving. And you know, I was, I was a careful observer, the same way that I'm involved with Ethereum. And there were just so many atrocities, such a sour community.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  You know, it's not.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  It went beyond moderating and it got into shaping an agenda, shaping a narrative that I, it's just so unhealthy.

• 10:11David Hoffman?

  Psyonics, would you say psyops?

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  It could have been avoided. It didn't have to, that chain could be healthy and vibrant. It could be a good partner chain for Ethereum today, but right now it's, it's essentially a shell of its former self and the only people who still, who still hold it in high regard are the people who don't know the reality behind it.

• 10:41David Hoffman?

  Is there a future of Ethereum where Ethereum becomes the chain that you shall not name? And how do we prevent that from happening?

• 10:52Speaker 00

  You know, I feel like I have a close enough relationship with Ethereum. God, what is this? I'm like, I'm dating Ethereum now.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  Ethereum will never be the chain that I don't mention, but I do hope that it never becomes a cautionary tale. There's a reason I was excited to be on your show today, and it's to draw attention to the fact that,

• 11:20Speaker 00

  for better or worse, Ethereum is under attack right now. The beacon chain is under attack, and it's a thing we don't want to talk about. People know me as a happy guy, like they think, oh, Fizz just wants to sing kumbaya all day long.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  But we're under attack, and I'm not the kind of guy who is gonna say, you know, these are the attackers. Everybody get them. I don't subscribe to that. I think the attackers, in this case, are probably non-malicious. I think that they are probably, they see themselves as responsible actors on the network.

• 11:57Speaker 00

  But the role of the community in these cases is really to stand up for the network and say, wait, stop. This is not what's supposed to happen. And, you know, some of the things I want to talk about today are the responsibility of the community of Layer 1, I'm sorry, of Layer 0, to stepping up and fighting for the network if they believe it's something they want to be around in 20 years, because I want it to be around in 20 years.

• 12:30David Hoffman?

  I think a way to put a name on the attacker is to call this attacker Moloch. Like, it seems like it's a Moloch attack, right?

• 12:39Speaker 00

  It is.

• 12:39David Hoffman?

  It's a failure of coordination, and it's a failure of, it's an attack on poor human incentives. And for those that don't know, the Moloch reference, Moloch is basically the god of human coordination. We did, there's some articles on Bankless in previous podcasts. But it's basically symbolized in the sense that like, if everyone agrees to do this one thing and abide by this one shared standard, you actually increase the incentive to defect from that. And ultimately, because that one person or one entity can defect, it makes the whole thing break down. So it's super phys to say that like,

• 13:15David Hoffman?

  for the newer listener or for the people that just haven't divin, dove as deep into the world of crypto or don't have the long history, to say that the aforementioned chain, who it's the, it's the most obvious chain. I'm just going to play into the game of not mentioning it, but it's the most obvious chain for those that haven't gotten it yet. To say that that chain is broken and then also to say Ethereum is under attack is like really strong language. So before we go into the details of just like how to save Ethereum from a Moloch attack, why, why just use like, why lean into just this whole like, very bold statements of just like the OG, the OG chain is dead. Ethereum is under attack. Like, these are big words.

• 13:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, I, I'm not here on your show to, to get views. I'm not, I'm not trying to sell a message. I am, I'm a harbinger. I'm, I'm like, I'm, I'm the, I'm sharing the message as I see it on the chain. Or actually, as I see it in the community, to be honest, because I, you know, this is not a chain message. This is a community message.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  In regard to blockchain chain, you know, that's a personal choice. That I, I take full credit for my attitudes toward that chain. It's, it's a, a chain relationship that I had that I separated from. But when it comes to Ethereum, it's not my message. It's not, hey, everybody, Superphiz is doing this thing.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  I, I work hard to listen and represent the needs of the beacon chain. If, if, I don't know, you know, I call myself the beacon chain community health consultant. I take that seriously.

• 15:01Speaker 00

  And so. I am the guy like literally looking at the chain every day and saying, what are we doing right and what's not working? The job of, of the developers, of the researchers, they're building, they're building the tip of the spear and I'm sort of here in the background looking at over at everything, looking at the community and saying, how are we doing? And we've reached this point where,

• 15:34Speaker 00

  we have meandered into a crisis. And if we, if we don't take community action to correct the crisis, then,

• 15:49Speaker 00

  I sincerely believe that it, I don't think it's going to be the end of the chain, but if, if, if Moloch crosses over 33%,

• 15:58Speaker 00

  I think that we will see,

• 16:02Speaker 00

  I think we'll see some effects. I think that

• 16:05Speaker 00

  rational sellers will look at irrational participants will look at other chains. I think that

• 16:14Speaker 00

  will have set a precedent that it's okay to try to monopolize the network.

• 16:24Speaker 00

  But yeah, as you say, it's a failure of coordination. It's something that we can avoid. It's something that now is the right time for us to fight for what's right.

• 16:34David Hoffman?

  Okay. So let's go ahead and make things explicit because I think people from the Rocket Pool and people from the our ETH finance communities definitely know what you're talking about, but I think many others might not. What's at stake here? What do we need to fix? What's going wrong?

• 16:48Speaker 00

  So the essential issue is the beacon chain runs on validators. And validators represent a 32 ETH, Ether deposit in the chain. And then a responsibility to validate the beacon chain at regular intervals. And so people mostly know staking as a form of making essentially passive income on the beacon chain. Beacon chain being the next iteration of the proof of stake chain for Ethereum. It's what we're moving to around August, hopefully.

• 17:24David Hoffman?

  The beacon chain is future Ethereum.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  That's right. And it's, it is a

• 17:30Speaker 00

  Essentially eminent at this point. And so on the speaking chain, we have, you know, about 300,000 validators. And ideally, these validators represent individuals. So maybe I run a validator in my home, maybe you run one in your home. You know, our friends have them and we are decentralizing and supporting the network. But what happens is people, people, I guess, I don't mean this in an unkind way. People seek a herd mentality. They look for an easier way to do things. They say, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't want to run the hardware on my own or I don't have 32 Ether or it's too much work, but here's an easier way to do it.

• 18:12Speaker 00

  If I give my Ether to these people, even Rocketpool, if I give my money to Rocketpool, they'll stake on my behalf and I don't have to worry as much, but I'm still getting paid. And that, that mental transaction is sort of where things break down. Because I think as, as Ether holders, if we value, if we value our Ether, if we value the future of the network, we have this, this deep responsibility to be good stewards of our Ether. And so if we're just value extractive and we're like, hey, how much can I make from this? Then we're going to give our Ether anywhere and it doesn't matter. But if we take, if we take the health of the network seriously,

• 18:56Speaker 00

  we're going to look around and say, what is the landscape of, of validating? How can I use my Ether to defend, support, protect and enhance the network? And so ideally, when you're staking any Ether, if you're staking, you know, one tenth of an Ether, you're going to look at all the providers and you're going to say, you know, I don't have 32 Ether, but I want to stake, so there are these, you know, one, two, three providers. And you're going to find, if you do that, that one of these providers right now has about 32.45% of the validators. That's essentially 100,000 validators or a third of the network.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  If they cross over one-third of the network, they then have the ability, as a governor, to censor the network. They can prevent finalization. They can say, "We're going to hold the network hostage until you do what we want."

• 19:57Speaker 00

  From the flip side of that, this entity, I don't believe they're evil. So I don't think that they intend to do that. I think that they see themselves as the benevolent leader. Like, "We're shepherding the network. We're trying to take care of everyone. There are so many people who want to deposit and make returns on their ether. We're just trying to help them do that." But the flaw in that logic is that staking on the beacon chain isn't inherently about making money. It's inherently about securing the chain. And if you put that financial goal ahead of the responsibility,

• 20:39Speaker 00

  then you have this kind of mutilated or mutated incentive profile.

• 20:45David Hoffman?

  And so the Moloch attack here is coming from, "Hey, I'm going to let everyone else run their own nodes, and I'm just going to delegate my ETH to somebody else." And so this is the classic Moloch trap where, well, if everyone delegates their ETH to someone else, then basically we all, we burn the system down in the first place. And so only a very few or a small percentage of people can safely delegate their ETH to others to stake on the network. And it needs to be significantly smaller than those that are actually staking their nodes and running their nodes at home. And so that proportion of like independent node runners versus delegators

• 21:27David Hoffman?

  needs to be strong in the independent node runner sides. And so part of the reason why you're saying you don't think they're evil is that, look, this could be anyone, right? Like, we could solve this problem on this particular staking as a service platform. But then, just like Moloch, as we used on Bankless so many times before, like, you don't actually kill Moloch. Moloch, you end up just pushing him elsewhere. And so it couldn't turn into like a whack a mole problem where, well, if people continue to delegate their ETH rather than run their nodes, like you're just pushing Moloch in a different direction. And so like, we can hit every single staking as a service provider on the head and say, well, no, like clamp down on this. And then it just goes to another one. And then we do it again. We actually haven't solved the problem, which is why you referenced layer zero and why I think I

• 22:09David Hoffman?

  see a we are layer zero piece of sheet of paper in your background. If that's what I'm reading correctly.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not sure if that camera angle can get it, but yeah. A friend of mine is like, hey, I want to sponsor your layers zero work. Wait, will you, if you'll put this up, I'll, I'll send sponsorship your way. And I was like, that's, that's like a win, win, win, win. Yeah, let's, uh, let's do it. Um, I, I truly feel like

• 22:38Speaker 00

  layer one is not the base of the chain. Uh, I get, I get this thing. I get DMs like, Fizz, you're, you're wasting your time. Uh, none of this matter. As a matter of fact, when I first advertised myself as the Beacon Chain Community Health Consultant, um, leaders in, leaders in Ethereum sort of discounted me. They're like, the community is cool, but you guys are really just a bunch of people hanging around in a forum.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  And I know differently. I know that layer zero is a formidable army. Um, we, we are, we're the farmers who go about our daily work until our network is threatened and then we take up arms and we defend our network. Um, and so I can allow people to not understand the strength of layer zero until there's an attack. And when there's an attack, that's when, you know, I, it's time to summon everyone and say, hey, guys, um, hey, you know, people who are using this service and you, you

• 23:53Speaker 00

  didn't know that you were harming the network. It's time to activate. Let's wake up. Let's, let's take responsibility for our actions. Let's come together. Let's protect the network. And then when we're done, we can move on to something else.

• 24:09David Hoffman?

  So it's very, very important to indoctrinate like a culture of node running in every single decentralized chain. And so is that the solution that you are looking for is you are just looking to change the culture around node running in Ethereum? Or are there like other also other solutions towards solving this whole like no one should ever cross 33.3% of steak supply?

• 24:36Speaker 00

  One of my favorite things about being super fizz is I don't have to know all the answers. I get to look you or anyone in the eye and say, I don't know. And I'm okay with that because it's not my job to know the answers. So, you know, the way that I envision the network is, to be honest, it's things like schools and hospitals and local community governments, setting up validators and running nodes to support local infrastructure. I see it as individuals running nodes at home. I see, you know, I see for people who don't have 32 ETH, they're using,

• 25:19Speaker 00

  you've heard this a thousand times, trustless, decentralized, open source and permissionless providers like Rocketpool. Not just Rocketpool, it's the first, but we need 10 Rocketpools.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  And that gives, you know, people the opportunity who's, you know, like I only have 0.01 ETH, but I want to fight for our network. How do I do this? And then you participate in one of these staking solutions that promotes network decentralization. So I've said this before, but I see, I see staking on the Ethereum network as a thin layer of validators around the world. And right now what we have are a few, a few very concentrated regions. It's something we can work. I want to point out ethsunshine.com, developed by Hanni Abu.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  It's a decentralization dashboard that sort of, it doesn't paint a pretty picture, but it definitely lays out the work ahead of us.

• 26:27David Hoffman?

  So the image that I'm kind of getting in my head is that like there's all these staking as a service providers and there's also many more working that have not been like that haven't been released yet, some like are in beta, some are just kind of working behind the scenes, and there are ones that are live. And it kind of reminds me of like the whole Curve Wars thing, where the Curve Wars are like trying, they're trying to bribe people to, to join their side, right, to join their, their, their governance way, or just like direct the Curve emissions towards their pool, right? And so like the Curve Wars are trying to fight over the emissions of CRV, and then the staking as a service providers are trying to fight over their share of staking rewards. And every, every single staking

• 27:11David Hoffman?

  as a service provider takes their fee, right? And so if they have more TVL, more assets under management, under their pool, they get a larger fee structure. And that's the bull case for, that's the bull case for every single staking as a service provider. And this, this is keeping Ethereum decentralized versus like competition, right? Bitcoiners love to think, Bitcoiners love to say that Bitcoin is always decentralized because even the biggest proof of work whiners will ultimately decay, just because that's what proof of work hardware does. And, and you know, I don't really buy into that. But like you could, you could kind of allude to the same thing going with Ethereum security, where just like the best proof of stake security provider will win, the one with the most

• 27:55David Hoffman?

  uptimes, the one with the cheapest fees, they will attract the most TVL, and then they win because of sheer competition. But what doesn't win is the Ethereum chain. The staking as a service provider wins, but what loses is the whole staking as a service chain, or the whole Ethereum chain in the first place, because if one proof of stake provider wins the race, in the same way where CVX, Convex Finance, won the Curve Wars, and now it's basically a Convex Finance Wars. If that happened in Ethereum, and just like staking as a service provider, ABC, wins the ETH staking game, Ethereum as a whole entire ecosystem loses. And now we don't really have a game to play anymore. So that

• 28:38David Hoffman?

  is where that metaphor breaks down. Fizz, is this even possible? How, how do we prevent, like, is this an even a possible future to prevent?

• 28:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, so you know, what you said makes so much sense because if you think about the most efficient design to run Ethereum validators, it's putting them all in one place. Let's centralize them. Let's find-

• 29:00David Hoffman?

  Just make a database.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  That's right. Yeah. And the funny thing is, as obviously incorrect as that seems, people tend toward it. People tend toward that herd mentality. So it's definitely possible for us to work through Layer Zero to coordinate to further decentralize the network. It's something that we'll have to continue doing forever. I get so many comments from people who say, "Fiz, how long are we going to have to do this?" Forever. It's never going to end. We don't develop a piece of software and upload it to GitHub

• 29:41Speaker 00

  and suddenly the network is decentralized. Decentralization is the role and responsibility of holders. If you have an Ether and you want it to be valuable, then you have to act in ways that bring value to the network.

• 29:56David Hoffman?

  And so I think this will bring me to my second question from the ETH Finance community, and I'll lead into it with this. Bitcoiners like to say that, "Don't trust Verifii," or basically just remove all human governance and just replace with math. For example, everything that we can replace with math should be replaced with math. And if you're telling me that, like, we're going to have to fight this Layer Zero fight forever, that sounds like an uphill battle. And one of the reasons why this crypto world works is that we've actually been able to replace uphill battles of the old world and replace them with downhill battles of the new world. And so, Logris the Bard, his first question is, "How can we economically incentivize a 22% soft cap of any given staking network?

• 30:41David Hoffman?

  What incentives can be marshaled to incentivize staking networks to voluntarily cap themselves? What economic penalties can be applied to staking networks who grow too large?" Any thoughts on these questions?

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have a great thought. Lograte is six times smarter than I am, so I can't wait to see what he comes up with.

• 31:00Speaker 00

  Like, um, you know, David, I, I let myself not have all the answers. I, I'm not, I'm not uh some shaman who's like uh laying out the path forward for everyone. I, I'm a member of the community who recognizes that um we have an opportunity for growth. And so I don't want people to look at me for the answers. I don't want people, I don't, I don't want to be a leader. I want to um be a part of a movement that makes Ethereum stronger. So when someone like Logri asks a question, you know, hey, this, what do I do? I am literally gonna say, I don't know, Logri, what do we do?

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Uh, because there are so many people in the community who know hundreds of times more than I do. I'm, I'm a school psychologist, like I'm a counselor. I don't know, I don't know crap about uh economic structures. I know how communities work. I know how to um how to deescalate conflict between middle schoolers really well. Um, but when you get into complex economic concepts or developer concepts, then I'm very okay saying there are other people in the community who are more able to address those questions than I am.

• 32:22Speaker 00

  It, it's funny because I responded that. It, it wasn't a joke. Like, I, I'm okay being normal. I can normalize who I am. I don't have to have all the answers.

• 32:34David Hoffman?

  And so, okay, so you're really leading into, you are just like sounding the horn. You're the Paul Revere who are saying the British are coming, the British are coming, but you're not necessar- you don't actually know like how to strategize an army here, other than just

• 32:45Speaker 00

  To be honest, I don't even want to be Paul Revere. I, I, I'm doing a job that has to be done. I'm doing something that um I wish someone else would do. I don't, I don't want to do this. I, I want to, um, I want to trade NFTs and lose money on them. But when, uh,

• 33:07David Hoffman?

  I have a question on that later, actually.

• 33:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. When, when I see, when I see a network that I value in trouble, then, uh, I'm going to give everything I have as, you know, as a counselor to, to do, to, to save it. Um, and it, it's, I, I don't want to be Paul Revere. I, I want to just be a participant in a larger thing.

• 33:34David Hoffman?

  Okay. So let me play devil's advocate for a second. Um, and so there, there's a, in the 2021, we saw this, uh, growth of just like anti ETH maxies in the crypto world. Uh, uh, I'll, I'll name some names, even though you, you, you don't have to, like the Solana communities, the Avalanche communities, uh, the formerly Terra communities. Uh, there was like, uh, there's a newsletter out there that, uh, is, uh, titled, um, or it's not in the title, but it's like in the tagline as to why you subscribe. It's titled no ETH maxies. Uh, and so like there's this growing cohort of just like no ETH maxies, uh, out there. Um, uh, and ironically, the guy, the guy who runs that newsletter got the idea from, from me on our Kobe podcast.

• 34:16David Hoffman?

  And I was like, other people need to make other content for other ecosystems, not bankless, not come crying in bankless. That's why we don't talk about you guys. Anyways, I'm off, off on a sidetrack. The point is, is that like, all of those like, uh, don't be ETH maxies, don't be a Bitcoin maxi like, uh, line. I'm, I'm willing to bet all of my ETH that as soon as like that one particular community, whatever that one community is, like were to flip Ethereum in market cap, they would just become like the, the new maxies, right? They would become the new avalanche maxies. And so applying, and just because like any underdog is like, don't be a max and let's accept our chain. Uh, and then as soon as they're the, the upper dog, as soon as they're on top, they're, they're turn, they just turn into the new maxies, right?

• 34:57David Hoffman?

  And so like, it's really just a strategy of where you are in the dominance, uh, in a dominance, uh, stack, right? And so Rocket Pool being, uh, having lesser, uh, TVL than the alternative staking pools.

• 35:11David Hoffman?

  Do you believe that the Rocketpool community has it in them to, if they were the ones that were at 32% of the stake and the RPL token was like 10x the price and they're all like super wealthy and happy, do you think they would also be ready to sound the alarm and cut back against their own interests, right? Like, does the Rocketpool community have the layer zero to protect Ethereum?

• 35:37Speaker 00

  In some ways, I feel like it's a loaded question because, you know, I'm a member of the Rocketpool community and I've spent a lot of time, in my own way, cultivating that community to hold what I consider to be the highest interests of Ethereum. And so, I know that many leaders in the Rocketpool community have committed to my suggestion of 22% capping, and then Vitalik followed that with a 15% cap. I also know Stakewise has voluntarily offered to cap at 22%. I think it's easier when you're the underdog to say, "If we get that big, yes."

• 36:22Speaker 00

  Because, you know, it's sort of, it's a feather in your cap, it's a promotional. It's harder for that community who is already there to say, "Okay, we'll turn it off, we'll stop taking money, sure." But Rocketpool, in my mind, is aligned with the fundamental ethos of Ethereum. It is decentralized, permissionless. God, I don't want to say those things over again because it sounds so packaged, but it's one of those things where I align with a community because they're

• 37:01Speaker 00

  doing Ethereum the way that I believe Ethereum should be done. And if they, if they reach that threshold, if they didn't throttle, then I would walk away. In the same way, honestly, that...

• 37:20Speaker 00

  That I would have to to look for other not I I don't think another chain exists. But I if Ethereum was captured, I would say, God, I I hope something else comes along. I hope something else.

• 37:34Speaker 00

  You know, is better. Can I? Can I circle back to this maxi conversation? Sure.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  We've entered this this culture where we've sort of become an anti maxi culture.

• 37:50Speaker 00

  And, you know, I'm even hesitant to call myself an ETH maxi, but but I am right now. If something changes in Ethereum, then I may become a maxi for another chain. But what I really like to see are people who have who have a wallet balance that is that is really based on one chain. If if you're a Solana maxi or a Algorand maxi Cardano, like,

• 38:21Speaker 00

  believe something and and work to make that better. And when you believe that that thing has failed, look for something else. But what I what I don't have a lot of respect for are people who maybe play the the top 10 on CoinGecko. These people aren't committed to any technology. They're just trying to make money. They're not trying to improve any ecosystem. They're not trying to

• 38:50Speaker 00

  to make things better for anyone. They're just trying to extract value where they can. So I I'm really OK with. You know, I don't I don't really agree with with people who who buy in, you know, to some of the alt layer ones. But fine, pick one, make it better, develop it, grow it, improve it, compete. That's it's just it's a pet peeve of mine that that I have to be ashamed to be an ETH maxi.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  And I'm not. Ethereum is is the future right now, and I hope it stays that way. And if it's not the future, then I'm going to go somewhere else and support another project.

• 39:30David Hoffman?

  So forever ago, I want you to check my thinking on this. Forever ago on Bankless, not that long ago, it was like six or seven months ago, maybe less actually, I wrote a pool about like, I wrote an article on Bankless titled like, something about like, the case for decentralized staking as a service providers. And it's basically all about Rocketpool. And the framing that I took was just like, first we had tokens on Ethereum, and then we had a need to swap tokens. So we made Ether Delta, and that got replaced by Uniswap. Uniswap's much better. And all of a sudden Ethereum solves its own problem of like liquidity. Now, not only do we, we don't even actually technically need to depend on external centralized

• 40:14David Hoffman?

  exchanges at this point for liquidity Ether. The Ether liquidity actually can come from internal to the network. So that's a really cool problem, a really cool problem to solve. It's just like, yo, we can actually have our own liquidity environment for Ether, the asset, and that's really important for the security of the network. We need Ether to be liquid. And the pitch was also about, well, Rocketpool is just like an app layer thing on Ethereum that can solve its own like centralization issues, where instead of staking with Coinbase, you can just stake with Rocketpool. And it's an app layer solution to some of its own centralization problems. And like, in theory, which will never actually be proven out in practice, if Rocketpool was somehow bug and exploit free, like, it could just like absorb 100% of the stake, and it

• 40:59David Hoffman?

  could just be, it could be the dominant staking as a service providers. Why am I wrong here?

• 41:05Speaker 00

  It's governance centralization. It is that Rocketpool exists as a layer on top of the staking network. And as much as you can say that they exert a tiny little bit of authority, any authority at that governance layer is a risk. And I want to, I want to talk about two reasons it's a risk. The first reason is not likely, but it is essentially Rocketpool saying, hey, guys, we have found a way to make more money. All we have to do is censor these transactions.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  So in our installer, we're just, we're gonna, you know, update this file. It's no big deal, everyone run it. And because, you know, everyone who is subscribed to Rocketpool...

• 41:59Speaker 00

  It is, you know, they're incentivized to to maintain that relationship, that governance relationship with Rocketpool, and so they're very likely to do those things without questioning. And so that's an unlikely risk, but the fact that it exists leads to the second risk. And the second risk is its governance capture. It is that entities around the world who might be interested in using Ethereum, look at the network and they see this artificial governance layer that controls the beacon chain, and they say, I'm, I'm not comfortable putting my business on that chain because

• 42:42Speaker 00

  of the potential for one governor to control the network. And that's where the real risk is. It's not that they'll actually ever do anything. It's that third parties, nation states, corporations, will, will examine the chain and they'll say, this is not a decentralized network. This is a network run by two operators, or I'm sorry, let me call them entities, two entities. And at that point, none of us know that, like, we may not even be aware of it. But what happens is five, eight, 10 years down the road, the network is stagnant and we're trying to figure out what happened. Like, why didn't we explode? Why didn't things grow? Why didn't we get adopted?

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Because we've turned a blind eye to our own weaknesses, and that's the thing that that I really want to encourage us to avoid.

• 43:32David Hoffman?

  Were those two entities Dave and Darren? Is that who you're referring to? Okay.

• 43:39Speaker 00

  I was thinking, well, I'm not even gonna say what I was thinking, but I just, no comment.

• 43:50David Hoffman?

  Okay.

• 43:51Speaker 00

  I'm like, I'm just gonna dig the hole deeper.

• 43:55David Hoffman?

  Okay, so yeah, upon asking that question, then Ethereum has done a very good job making sure it doesn't have token governance, right? It's not Tezos where the actual asset is on-chain governance, there's explicit no governance baked into Ether. And so if RocketPole just takes all the supply, even if it is maximally decentralized, it's distributing all the nodes, it still produces on-chain governance in a roundabout way via the RPL token, so we don't like that. So we definitely need multiple staking as a service providers to compete for all of this, but not have one dominate. I was actually, so I was talking to Hazu a while ago about like why he supported the dominant current staking as a service provider.

• 44:37David Hoffman?

  And his answer was that like, well, the alternative is really just centralized exchanges. And so even a compromised alternative is better than if there's like, imagine if Coinbase had like 34% of this, 32% of the stake that the current dominant player has, and then also you add it on the current amount that Coinbase has, then we're beyond 32%, we're in somewhere probably in like the 40% or something. And that's, that gets really scary and that leans into right exactly what you were talking about, where like, oh, sweet, this is called Ethereum, but it's actually Coinbase chain. We don't really want that. And so having semi-decentralized staking as a service providers is a mitigation against that. And so that was his argument.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  And rather than just, I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, rather than having one semi-decentralized provider, really we're better off with a lot of providers, a lot of providers who we can ensure are not colluding. So, you know, one entity will say, if we're not running all of the validators, then Coinbase will. Well, do you know what? The moment that Coinbase gets to 32.45% of the network, or maybe it's, you know, someone in Reddit was like, well, what if, you know, Microsoft is just going to take over the chain anyway?

• 45:57Speaker 00

  Well, the moment Microsoft crosses a threshold, and I'm in awe of the 15% threshold that Vitalik suggested, but the moment we get to that point, that's when the community needs to say, stop, you're crossing a line. That is where Layer Zero comes in. So. You know, for this one entity to say, "If we're not doing it, someone else will." That's fine. Let someone else do it, because we'll deal with them as well. We will approach them the same way that we've addressed you. And that is how we enact governance as a community.

• 46:36David Hoffman?

  Is social shaming at the layer zero level the strongest tool in the tool belt?

• 46:44Speaker 00

  I don't want to call it shaming. I don't want to do shaming. I'm not a shamer. I'm not anti-anyone. I am pro beacon chain. So my goal for our community is to rise to a high standard and promote the beacon chain. I'm not here to shame anyone. I appreciate the work of those entities who have developed staking solutions to allow people to participate in the network. I'm not here to shame them. I'm here to promote the health of the beacon chain.

• 47:20David Hoffman?

  You said that you were in awe about Vitalik's 15%. Why is the 15% such a crazy number?

• 47:26Speaker 00

  You know, I think it's something we all believed in the beginning. I love, it was a dev con, I believe, where Vitalik is onstage saying, "You'll be able to validate on Ethereum from a laptop." I was taken by that. I believed that. I subscribed to it. I still subscribe to it. And so that led me to believe that the beacon chain will be comprised of, you know, hundreds of thousands of people staking from their homes on laptops.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  When that didn't unfold kind of as we expected,

• 48:01Speaker 00

  you know, we're all asking ourselves the question, "What level of centralization of entity governance is acceptable?" And so, you know, as FIZ, I chose 22%, because it requires... So 22% meaning, one entity cannot prevent finalization. It requires more than three entities to change finalization. So that seemed like a safe number. I floated it around, thought about it, got some feedback on it, and it felt right to me. So the community level then is 22%.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Everyone was silent on that. And, you know, not everyone. The Ethereum researchers were silent on that. And it leads me to think, you know, Fizz, are you on the right track? Are you doing? Are you following the right direction? And then, you know, a few weeks after that, Danny tweeted, you know, 33% is an attack. And I'm like, OK, well, maybe my gauge was a little off. Maybe somehow 22% is OK, but 33%. That's when we need to draw the line. And I sort of even went beyond that. And I realized that 33% is a developer kind of limit,

• 49:31Speaker 00

  where the community will kick in at 22. And then Vitalik with his 15% message. Because, you know, Vitalik is here for decentralization. He's serious. He's not looking for any of the other centralized distributed networks that we could have created. I don't. I love what Anthony Sosano says about not being a cult of personality. I'm not a cult of personality for Vitalik, but I have a heck of a lot of respect for him.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  And I align with his dream for a truly decentralized Ethereum network. And when Vitalik says at 15%, "You should begin throttling your operation, raising prices, changing things to dissuade more deposits." I realized, you know, this is the right way. We're on the right track. We, the community is doing the right thing by encouraging further decentralization.

• 50:45David Hoffman?

  15% makes sense to me if like we're talking about thresholds here where like if two entities had 15%, they still wouldn't get to the 33.3% required to prevent finalization. And so it goes from just like just from one entity at 22% to two entities at 15% are required. So from a threshold standpoint, that certainly makes sense. And while it's not baked into the actual protocol itself in producing, and this isn't what Vitalik wasn't promoting that either, he was saying he should, it should be part of the community like status quo, it should be part of the layer zero, he was basically referring to, that if you are running a staking as a service provider, you should start price gouging.

• 51:28David Hoffman?

  He used the words price gouging, which makes sense to me because like you get to balance, if you're super successful and if you have a monopoly, as a monopoly, you get to raise prices, like you get to start to price gouge. And so this seems to naturally fit. While we were talking about like one half the equation earlier where there seems to be a convergence on one dominant winner in the staking as a service business because the best service will win out, there's the other side of that where just like, well, if you are the one that's winning, you also get to increase your prices and you get to be the most lucrative. And so in theory, it'll make your token price go up a lot, but it'll make your ETH share supply go down a lot, which is kind of like, good, that's pretty good.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:09David Hoffman?

  It's a good outcome.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  I was impressed, you know, we use the tools we have available, and the tool that I have available is community. Vitalik understands economics in a way that I will never understand it. And to hear him suggest an economic solution to something that other people are suggesting should be a protocol solution, it's really elegant. We have this kind of tiered approach, and it gives entities an opportunity to continue profiting, to continue lucrative profiting, to continue being highly engaged in the network, and to still be good network citizens. Like that's really what we want to be, are good citizens of the beacon chain.

• 52:57David Hoffman?

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• 53:40David Hoffman?

  are already on Arbitrum, with many moving over every day. Go to bridge.arbitrum.io now to start bridging over your ETH and other tokens in order to experience DeFi NFTs in the way it was always meant to be: fast, cheap, secure, and friction-free.

• 53:55David Hoffman?

  The Layer 2 era is upon us. Ethereum's Layer 2 ecosystem is growing every day, and we need bridges to be fast and efficient in order to live a Layer 2 life. Across is the fastest, cheapest, and most secure cross-chain bridge. With Across, you don't have to worry about the long wait times or high fees to get your assets to the chain of your choice. Assets are bridged and available for use almost instantaneously. Across bridges are powered by Uma's Optimistic Oracle to securely transfer tokens from Layer 2 back to Ethereum. A token proposal is being deliberated as we speak in the Across forum, where community members will decide on the token distribution. You can have your part of Across's story by joining the Discord and becoming a co-founder and helping to design the fair, fair launch of Across. If you want to bridge your assets quickly and securely, go to across.to to bridge your assets

• 54:39David Hoffman?

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• 55:24David Hoffman?

  all from the security of the best privacy browser on the market. Whether you're new to crypto or a seasoned pro, it's time to switch to the Brave Wallet. Download Brave at brave.com/banklist and click the Wallet icon to get started. Part of the game that we're playing with Ethereum and with like promoting decentralization is to ensure that our kids can also play that game. And so you were talking about, and also our kids' kids and our kids' kids' kids. And earlier you were talking about like putting monetary incentives ahead of responsibility. And if everyone puts monetary incentives ahead of responsibility, then we remove the ability for our kids to play this game. Because, because we put money in front of responsibility, what happens as a result is that, well, the network becomes corrupted

• 56:08David Hoffman?

  and then it stops being the network that we all want it to be. And then no longer can our kids play in this like fun times land, which is JPEGs and DeFi and staking, which is Ethereum. And so like the word like responsibility of like has always like struck out as this like, if you don't know what to do in the world, find something that you can be responsible for. And then that gives you like the long-term iterative game. Because like you're promoting the ability to make sure that that game is continued to be able to be played by yourself and then also by others.

• 56:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wholly subscribe to that. Like I, I work sometimes to diminish my, my perspectives of responsibility on the chain. Because so many of, so many people who would argue with me say, you know, it's about financial incentives. Stop talking about responsibility. I, I don't subscribe to that. I, I have a responsibility to the chain, to steward it, to help it be healthy, to steward the community.

• 57:17Speaker 00

  For me, and I, I hope for others, this extends beyond financial incentives and into dreams for the future. Like, I don't think of Ethereum as a financial chain anymore. I think of Ethereum as...

• 57:34Speaker 00

  The foundational layer for our shared future. And I don't know what that shared future is going to look like yet. I, I think that decentralized society is going to be a big part of it. But I'm so excited about the future of what Ethereum can be, that I'm done worrying about how much money I'm gonna make. And I'm more focused on how I can steward this growth into something that benefits humanity. I, it's a better goal for all of us.

• 58:08David Hoffman?

  Right, you said, "I'm done thinking about how much money I can make." But then you said, what you said, but in my mind, I hear, "How much value can we create for others?" Like, "I'm done getting mine, other people can need, still need to get theirs, and we need to make sure that the maximum amount of value can be created for others to be shared."

• 58:27Speaker 00

  You know, I, I don't wanna be disingenuous. I, I rely on Ethereum for, for money. I, I want to be financially successful. I, I'm not, I'm not above that. But within that, there's so much potential, so much opportunity to, um, to give back. You know what it, what it leads to is, uh, is being a value extractor versus adding value. And, and my personal philosophy for anything that I engage with is to add more value than I extract.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  I think if, if every Ethereum, um, and I'm not talking about, you know, people who think they're investing, they're really just extracting value. If every real Ethereum worked to add more value than they extract, uh, they would find that, uh, they would, they would grow old happy. Um, because they would watch the fruition of Ethereum. It would become something that, that's beyond their wildest dreams. Um, and their financial needs would be met as well.

• 59:44David Hoffman?

  How do you see, how do you, do you think about like the similarities between what you do with being a psychological counselor for kids in a middle school with what you do with Beacon Chain? Can you parse out that, those parallels?

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, so much of it, middle school is where I learned to build consensus.

• 1:00:06Speaker 00

  It's like, so consensus really is, in my mind, it is, it is first polling and listening. Like, what are the different interests here at the table? And, and then it's kind of like distilling that to, let's find one principle, one principle we can all agree on. And then instead of dumping that on the table, you go to individuals and you say, "Hey, David, I have this idea. I just wanted to run it past you, and I see if you can get buy-in. Can I get buy-in? Hey, David, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, let's, let's host six merge calls. Is that something you're interested in? Do you want to do that? Hey, do you want to do that?"

• 1:00:48Speaker 00

  Great.

• 1:00:50Speaker 00

  So, so you get that buy-in with individuals, and then, once you have that buy-in with individuals, you go back to the group, and you say, "Hey, everyone, I've been thinking about this. What do you guys think?" And so, I polled everyone, I had individual conversations with, with the majority of the people, and then I put it out for public view. And that, to me, that's the consensus building that I learned from honestly dealing with seventh graders who like to fight about everything. Like, that's how it works.

• 1:01:20David Hoffman?

  Isn't that just politics?

• 1:01:22Speaker 00

  Maybe. I, I don't, I would, I could never imagine myself as a politician. You know what? No. Politics tend to be self-serving. And every politician that I'm aware of...

• 1:01:40Speaker 00

  I don't trust many politicians. They're all, they're all thinking, what's, what's my piece of the pie in this? What, what, where's my slice at?

• 1:01:51David Hoffman?

  Okay, never mind. Is that just governance in that case?

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:01:55David Hoffman?

  Because like, politics is like this, uh, layer, this gamified layer on top of governance, where like, we should be talking about, just like, instead of, and we use the word politics when we talk about what's happening on Capitol Hill, when we should be using the word governance. Like, politics is like the game of chess that people play around governance.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, so, I, I've grown away from the idea of, of governance, and I, I'm much, I'm much more comfortable with the idea of consensus, because governance, governance is a game, in, in many ways. Um, and I'm not playing games, I'm looking for, um, for ideas that people can gravitate toward. Maybe, you know, that, that, i- if you took a, a pure definition of governance, it would probably be ideas that, that people can gravitate toward. But the word has been, it's been through so, so much, that it now carries baggage, and it's, it's kind of a less pure word.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  But consensus is still, uh, a reflection of ideas that people can gravitate toward.

• 1:03:05David Hoffman?

  So, uh, going back to some of the questions from the R E finance community, uh, and this one's about Bankless. Just, Juxtonotherposition, oh wow, great name. Uh, she goes, uh, to hit, uh, David Hoffman, you David Hoffman, that's me, uh, between the eyes, with love, what should Bankless be doing to better support decentralization?

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  Are you asking me?

• 1:03:29David Hoffman?

  Yeah, yeah, that was you.

• 1:03:31Speaker 00

  No, this is great, like, um...

• 1:03:35Speaker 00

  You know, we've had some rounds, right? The thing that you can do to better support decentralization is encourage people to stake from home first. If they can stake from home, have them stake from home. Bankless, you've developed, David, you guys have an awesome network. I'm in awe of Bankless. Congratulations.

• 1:03:58Speaker 00

  You can use that network to train people and help people get staking in their home if they have 32 Ether. You can also support minority staking solutions. Obviously, you know, we've talked a lot about Rocketpool.

• 1:04:17Speaker 00

  I don't promote Rocketpool because I'm pumping bags. I promote Rocketpool because it's currently the most healthy way to stake on the network. If Rocketpool reaches, you know, 15%, and that's based on Vitalik's number, then I'm going to definitely like steer toward another solution. But right now, Rocketpool is a solution where anyone with 16 Ether can stake, and then anybody with, you know, you can use Uniswap or whatever to also stake through Rocketpool. I think Bankless has, Bankless is the most powerful platform in Ethereum. You are the most powerful educator in Ethereum. That's, that gives you a tremendous responsibility

• 1:05:01Speaker 00

  to kind of get this good message out, like how to be a good network steward.

• 1:05:09David Hoffman?

  I think one of the reasons why we haven't totally leaned into that, because we don't have any technical person on Bankless, and so explaining the technical stuff kind of gets away from us. And so, especially when we are onboarding so many people, we're like, oh, yeah, you can stake your ETH with this like staking as a service provider. And then all the Bitcoiners are like, that's just delegated proof of stake with extra steps. But like, which is also a little bit of the vibe that's going on here is just like, it is delegated proof of stake if you choose the largest staking provider. And so like, maybe there's like some tiers to talk about this. And I do stake ETH on a node that's not at my home, and so I don't do it with a delegated staking as a service provider,

• 1:05:53David Hoffman?

  but I've delegated it to someone.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  He's a good man, too. Love that guy.

• 1:06:01David Hoffman?

  And so like, maybe the tears go is like you stake your ETH at home with your own node, with your own ETH, then you find, or then if next best thing is find a friend, stake it with them, next best thing is find the most minorities taking as a service providers. And then beyond that, maybe as part, start where you have to stop recommending anything. How would you agree with that, that like, degree of help?

• 1:06:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's good. I see, I see two roles there. And I may, this may be an oblique response to your question. But while your, while your base, Bankless DAO, may not be technically savvy enough to support all of the users, they are technically savvy enough to create content. And a lot of times, you can have one technical user create content that can be reused for thousands of

• 1:07:02Speaker 00

  non-technical users to benefit from it. And so that is, is one way. The next way is, is really, yeah, just continuing that education of helping people understand the responsibility that comes with staking. And so, yeah, staking from home, staking with a minority client, resisting, really just thinking through, what does decentralization mean? Looking at resources like ethsunshine.com and saying, it's tough for me to look at ethsunshine.com. Have you looked at it?

• 1:07:46Speaker 00

  It shows we have something like 54% network health. I, it, I like to see success, you know, like, but, but by seeing our weakness, by acknowledging our weakness, it gives us a place to grow from. And that's, that's a platform we can share.

• 1:08:08David Hoffman?

  All right, so it sounds like I need to put a bounty out for a technical explanation, but also it's been a while since I've spun up a node and so maybe I should do a 2022 version of this and I'll turn that into a video. But then also if I could get some help from the Bankless DAO, that'd be great because I know you've got some technical giga brains in there. Are there any other topics or conversations you want to get to before I want to get to some more fun, personal conversations?

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  Well, you know, I want to ask, I wanted to give you the mantle of realizing that Bankless is in a unique position to influence the future of Ethereum, and I think you know that. That's why it's so important that you maximize the opportunity to build this layer zero, to decentralize Ethereum. And I think you get it. Yeah, I think you're right.

• 1:09:08David Hoffman?

  We totally get it. I think the fight that we've been fighting over the last year is less about like internal problems because I do think that Ethereum has this like fantastic auto-immune system. And so when there is an internal problem, there hasn't been an internal problem that Ethereum hasn't solved yet. And so that's kind of why I haven't put too much thought and energy into this particular part of Ethereum's history because like in the future, hopefully in the future, like a year from now, two years from now, this is just one of many problems that Ethereum was faced with and then solved. Like Ethereum is yet to be trumped by a problem and it comes from the layer zero. It comes from like this auto-immune response that we have when as a community, we actually

• 1:09:53David Hoffman?

  do care about this stuff. Like we actually do care about promoting decentralization. Of all communities out there, like it's one of the few communities that actually gets it, right? And I don't have to explain why we need decentralization and to illustrate to people that decentralization also really just means corruption resistance and we would like to have like uncorruptible systems. And so like the fight that we've been fighting for the, mostly through 2021 is like trying to resist against centralized chains because that, it wasn't really the... The more centralized taking as a service providers that were the real threat to Ethereum, it was like narrative attacks from centralized chains.

• 1:10:35David Hoffman?

  Like you think it's bad if some like centralized service provider only has a handful of nodes. Well, what about an entire chain? And so a lot of people were talking about like, oh, well, it's this chain. That's like the going to be the new thing and it's going to get this. This chain is going to be the thing that kills Ethereum. And so like, that's been our fight for like the last 18 months or so, maybe a little bit less than that. And frankly, like it was absolutely exhausting. Uh, and just like going up against these communities while token, while the token price is going up and up and up is just like, you, you, you, you're just going, you're going against, it feels like an immovable object, which is bankless about decentralization, going against an unsolvable force, which is like Sol, AVAX, Terra price, Luna price going up into the moon.

• 1:11:20David Hoffman?

  Right. And like, it, it sucks for a really long time, dude. Uh, and like finally, like, we're actually able to like, kind of cash in on some of that like credibility for actually like,

• 1:11:31Speaker 00

  We called it.

• 1:11:32David Hoffman?

  Yeah. Promoting like, not necessarily like trying to say like, hey, like this Terra thing, not necessarily sustainable. You guys should be careful. Um, uh, and so like that, that was our big fight. It's like, not necessarily internal Ethereum stripes, because like I said, like Ethereum has done a fantastic job. Like never really has like left a, a big problem go unsolved. And so we've kind of, especially when like our, most of our communities, it's not necessarily like, why won't you talk about Rocketpool? It's like, why aren't you talking about my centralized L1? Uh, and so like teaching about like decentralization from the external standpoint, to get them into the Ethereum community in the first place, has kind of been like bankless's fight for the last like year or so. Uh, and so for like the Rocketpool community that's out there is like, why, why aren't you guys caring about the health of the network?

• 1:12:16David Hoffman?

  It's like, yo, we care about the health of the industry. Like it's you guys, it's you guys that care about the health of the network because we'll pass the baton on to you guys.

• 1:12:24Speaker 00

  That's really honorable.

• 1:12:28Speaker 00

  I couldn't have articulated your fight unless you described it to me. And now that you've described it to me, even though, you know, I catch a lot of bankless. I, you know, I would, I don't listen every day, but I love the rollups and I love, you know, so much of your work.

• 1:12:46Speaker 00

  But I couldn't have articulated your battle like you just did. And when you, when you, you know, like, this is the thing I've been working on for 18 months. This is kind of where I'm at. You're pretty successful. It's pretty impressive. I, I have the same kind of like, you know, I worked on client or consensus layer client diversity. That it was a successful, um, a successful initiative. You know, the current initiative is the entity size debate. Like that for me, I, I hope it, I hope it doesn't take a long time. Like it, it does get exhausting, like being the person who's beating the drum about one thing that you know needs to get done.

• 1:13:27Speaker 00

  And then I would say the next initiative for layer zero is the execution layer diversity. And, um, you know, it's interesting.

• 1:13:40Speaker 00

  I, I believe ETH researchers are ready to do, um, execution layer diversity now. But I don't believe we can successfully fight on all of those fronts at once. Uh, and so, um, the sooner we get the entity size thing worked out, um, the next Monday, I'm going to say, all right, guys, let's do, uh, execution layer diversity. And it, you know, I, I'm not sure how many people could articulate those initiatives that, that I know the same way that I don't know how many people could articulate the initiatives that, that you're working on. But they're there. Like, they're really real things.

• 1:14:21David Hoffman?

  Right. And as we go into the bear market, like it does present us with an opportunity to reflect on like, all right, what are the next big problems that we have to tackle? Because more or less the crypto industry and every single chain and especially Ethereum being the biggest chain with the most to lose has to like turn and face and be like, all right, what's the next big problem? What's the next big problem? What's the next big, big, big problem? And then ultimately, it's going to be like that for like years? And it has been like that for years, ever since Genesis. Slowly, those problems get like longer in time and not as a big of a deal, but like we're still not anywhere close to the end of this whole thing. And so, but as we're going into the bear market and like a lot of the energy has evaporated out of the alternative layer one space, mainly because the tokens are down bad.

• 1:15:07David Hoffman?

  Like, it does actually give a moment to like, look more internally rather than externally. I think like, looking externally is for bull markets, looking internally is for bear markets. And so like, I do think that this is a moment to like self, turn, turn and turn away from the external world and more in towards and addressing the problems for the internal world. So I do take the point that like now is definitely the time for like bankless to start beating the drum about decentralization in a different direction. So I do, definitely do take that point.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  I, I do. So I have to acknowledge,

• 1:15:43Speaker 00

  I took a long position on Ether because I'm so, it's Hal Press did it to me. So maybe I should blame you.

• 1:15:52David Hoffman?

  Dude, during that podcast, I opened up my Gemini app and I just like two X my daily, my daily price, buy price.

• 1:16:00Speaker 00

  Can I tell you? I was, I was on a multi-day travel, listening to Hal Press. I stopped at a gas station, turned on my mobile hotspot, went to DeFi Saver and leveraged long because...

• 1:16:16Speaker 00

  And now, you know, probably not smart fizz, but it was just so compelling. Like I, I, like, how do you, how do you hear that and not just want to risk your position? But, um, what I was gonna say is I-

• 1:16:31David Hoffman?

  I took a ETH, ETH chain that we shall not name short position. So, uh, not in dollar terms, but like put ETH in a compound, borrowed the asset that shall not be named, uh, sold the asset for ETH and then put more ETH in a compound. So I'm like longing the ratio, like capital efficient way to, to, uh, to trade the ratio. Uh, and then, but also not be exposed to like macro markets, which is a nice thing to not be exposed to at the moment.

• 1:16:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, my, uh, this is where, again, uh, you know, I, I normalize being normal. I'm not an econ, I'm not great with economics, so I, I don't allow myself to attempt those, uh, those arbitrages. But I'm, I'm always impressed with the guy.

• 1:17:13David Hoffman?

  Oh, I just, I just listen to other people and like, well, he's smart and bullish, so I will follow that.

• 1:17:19Speaker 00

  Are you familiar with this, uh, the Logri, um, he has a name for this, uh, cause it's, it's on his Tokenomics Explained. Um, it, it's the Logri double something, um, but it's, it's, so I want you to look it up and I'm sure you'll, you know, commenters will, will point it out because it's, it's really interesting, but I'm like, I could, I could never pull that off. Like I, I don't even know what buttons to click to make that happen, but I, I don't know.

• 1:17:45Speaker 00

  You know, you'll have to check that out though. It's, it's really impressive.

• 1:17:49Speaker 00

  One of the things I was trying to get to a minute ago and I got it, drilled my, my own self.

• 1:17:54David Hoffman?

  No, I did, I did it. I did it.

• 1:17:56Speaker 00

  Oh, I, I think that we're likely to view, oh, I, I, uh, Hal Press did it. I blame Hal for everything. Uh, I think we're likely to view what we consider to be the, the incoming bear market, um, as, as an L1 cleansing. I would, I would kind of like to think of it as a big L1 cleansing and I, there's going to be-

• 1:18:21David Hoffman?

  I call it the bear market wash cycle.

• 1:18:24Speaker 00

  Well, you know, there's gonna be something new after this, and I don't know what it's gonna be. But we always have, after these

• 1:18:35Speaker 00

  manias, you know, we haven't, we have an L1 mania, we had an ICO mania, we had an NFT mania. There's going to be another mania, and I'm just curious, like, after we move past L1s, after we're proof of stake. I'm excited to just see the next mania unfold. It'll be fun.

• 1:18:56David Hoffman?

  Yeah, it always happens. I remember going through the bear market of 2018 to 2020, thinking like, "Oh, everyone talks about how crypto goes in cycles." And so like, "Sweet, there will just be another cycle." And then I thought, "Well, if everyone's saying that there's another cycle, isn't that like the crowded trade? Like, if that's the consensus bet, I thought markets do the things that people don't expect them to do, and everyone thinks that another cycle's coming. So maybe it's another cycle's not coming, and then another cycle totally came." And now I'm on the, like, now that we're one more cycle beyond that, I'm like, "Oh, you know, there's, how big is the crypto world? Like, it's still only like 1% of like global population that are in like the crypto world. And so like, we could have like three more cycles for, as far as I can tell.

• 1:19:40David Hoffman?

  And so like, it could actually just keep on playing out consensus over consensus until like, the cycles do actually disappear, and it's just like, up only but modestly for a very long time.

• 1:19:52Speaker 00

  I love the predictability of these cycles, like, even my wife, who has zero interest in Ether. She's like, you know, I've said, you know, "Hey, we're gonna tighten up a little bit because there's a bear coming, and it could, it's gonna be a few years, it's no big deal." And, you know, her response is, "Well, so it's gonna go back up, just tell me how long it's gonna be." Like, well, that's the part I don't know, but I love that.

• 1:20:21David Hoffman?

  Well, Hal Press says.

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, call Hal. I, God, I hope that dude's right, because I I've never been, uh, so he's, anyway, we could talk about Hal Press.

• 1:20:35Speaker 00

  Just such such high signal with such common sense, like,

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  again, I listen to a lot of, you know, investors speak and it just doesn't resonate with me. But so much of what he said, especially with the concept of of trying to, of supply, trying to suppress the price rather than push it up. I'm like, damn, that that really, that's right, right?

• 1:21:01David Hoffman?

  Right. Uh, you said you you mentioned your your wife. Uh, does your wife feel like she shares you with Ethereum?

• 1:21:10Speaker 00

  No, my wife feels like Ethereum owns me and she gets to borrow me. For, she will say, uh,

• 1:21:19Speaker 00

  how much do I even listen? For meals. She's like, you you you come out for meals. So it is, it's it's a balance that I really need to work on.

• 1:21:30David Hoffman?

  I think it's a balance, like balancing a crypto in all of our lives is like something I think everyone resonates with. So you are not alone in that fight, brother.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  It's hilarious because I'm I'm always like, but honey, I'm working on this thing right now. It's a big deal to me. It's really important. I'm, you know, so it was just the CLR grants round. I'm like, you know, this grants round is going to be over in three days and then I'll be back. And she's like, do you hear yourself? And I'm like, no, I'll be back in three days. She's like, you said that two weeks ago and you said it three weeks before that and you're still gone. And I'm like, ah. So, yeah, it it it it is maybe one of my, one of my biggest weaknesses, uh, something I would I would love to get right.

• 1:22:12David Hoffman?

  Yeah, no, I've had the same fight. Uh, it's just like Ethereum is so rich. There's so much, there's so many interesting people to talk about, to talk about so many interesting things with. So, no, I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure every single person I've had on this podcast is probably is like, oh, yeah, that sounds about right. The other, the other personal question I have.

• 1:22:28Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 1:22:29David Hoffman?

  The other personal question I have is, uh, where did super fits come from?

• 1:22:34Speaker 00

  Um, it's not all that exciting. I have this buddy. So this guy called Corey was Soda Pop Fizz on AOL Instant Messenger back in like 1995. And then a buddy of mine, Vendorf, set up a server called Fizz. As a short, because you know, he was like, hey, I need a name. And then I used that server very often. And when I was fishing for, you know, I needed. I, there was, I've cycled through thousands, probably 100 usernames. And that was just the flavor of the day. I didn't know that Super Fizz would like catch on.

• 1:23:17Speaker 00

  I, it's so funny, like I can still log into my old like other community accounts and they're fun, but Super Fizz is my committed personality now.

• 1:23:30David Hoffman?

  Do, does a Rocketpool slash ETH Finance community know your actual name?

• 1:23:35Speaker 00

  Uh, you know, it's not a secret, but I, because this is what I do. Like I am Fizz more than I am my IRL persona.

• 1:23:49David Hoffman?

  The alternative? Yeah.

• 1:23:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. So in this weird way, I have become more comfortable being Fizz than hearing my real name spoken. And I know that's odd. You know, there was a transition period, but I'm more likely to respond to being called Fizz than my, my real name.

• 1:24:10David Hoffman?

  Interesting. Have you ever accidentally, like in real life, introduce yourself? Hey, I'm, I'm Super Fizz?

• 1:24:15Speaker 00

  No, we don't, real life.

• 1:24:17David Hoffman?

  It's the correct answer.

• 1:24:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, we're, uh, we're very, still very COVID careful, even though, you know, it is what it is. So we, I haven't met a lot of new people in real life in a while. I'm really looking for, we have a three-year-old who isn't vaccinated yet. And so when he gets vaccinated, I look forward to getting out in the world again.

• 1:24:43David Hoffman?

  Yeah, and I'll see you at DevCon.

• 1:24:48David Hoffman?

  Maybe. TBD. All right, uh, one last question for you.

• 1:24:52Speaker 00

  Bogota did not, did not go over well.

• 1:24:55David Hoffman?

  Hahaha, fair enough. Uh, here's a, here's a question which I've kind of rephrased from a Richad G. Richad D. Um, what's your favorite thing to do with $13,000?

• 1:25:11Speaker 00

  Hahaha, the Stoner Cats. And it's so funny, like, um, you know, I, I, I think of myself as an amalgam, or maybe like, um, an archetype of an Ethereum community member. And I think that Ethereum community members should play with a protocol, like we should play. And, uh, he's referencing, uh, Stoner Cats, uh, and there's a Jonathan Mann, Song of Dayman song about, um, the Stoner Cats debacle where, um, you know, I was just screwing around and I, I wanted a Stoner Cat, so I went to MetaMask and just set the gas to some crazy number.

• 1:25:54Speaker 00

  Um, and I, I burned five, five gas, five ETH in gas, uh, on a failed transaction for a Stoner Cat, which if you look, not even, what's it, like two weeks ago, we had that, uh, that land sale.

• 1:26:08David Hoffman?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:26:09Speaker 00

  And people paid, yeah, yeah, but people paid like tens of ETH for gas for that, and it was nothing, but we just, we weren't there yet. It wasn't normal yet.

• 1:26:20David Hoffman?

  Hmm. And you'd never, did you end up getting refunded? They, uh, give, give money back?

• 1:26:26Speaker 00

  They did, uh, and I actually, um, so there are two sides to that. Uh, Jonathan Mann's song, um, I, I guess I ended up with that song and then ETH Account bought that song, ETH A C C T, bought that song for me for 5.82 ETH, and he holds it now. And then I got a refund from Stoner Cats, but I, I didn't feel comfortable like getting a double rebate, so I donated that to HobblerCon, um, which is, you know, the trip to Hawaii as their seed money.

• 1:27:02Speaker 00

  So I, I, again, HobblerCon, the trip to Hawaii, I, I'm so sad that I can't go to that. I think it's just gonna be awesome.

• 1:27:10David Hoffman?

  Oh, you can't go?

• 1:27:11Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:27:13Speaker 00

  Vaccinations can't fly. Our sun can't fly. And so, you know, we, we stick together and we'll have another trip in two years.

• 1:27:23David Hoffman?

  Well, you'll just have to recruit someone to carry around an iPad so you can come on, come around on the iPad.

• 1:27:28Speaker 00

  I know, right? It's, um, you know, I think that, that people don't know. I don't always manifest this in my online interactions, but my family is my priority. And, and I love that. I've chosen that. I'm always going to put my family above Ethereum. And other Ethereum's, they think they're first in my life. And I love like, they're my family. They're, they're my online family. But at the end of the day, um, my family is, is my priority. And I, I, I love that. I, I love my family relationship, my family dynamic. And you guys are just my second family.

• 1:28:13David Hoffman?

  Well, you're the most dad looking guest I've had on this show. So it's very, very.

• 1:28:18Speaker 00

  Wait, is that a compliment? I don't know what that was.

• 1:28:22Speaker 00

  Thanks.

• 1:28:23David Hoffman?

  I don't know if it's a compliment or it's not either. It's just like, this is you look like a dad.

• 1:28:30David Hoffman?

  Awesome. Super fizz. Any last topics you want to talk, touch on before we wrap this up?

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  I, I have loved syncing up with you. Um, I, I love what you're doing with Bankless. Uh, I love. You know, I, our community is so valuable. Um, I don't.

• 1:28:52Speaker 00

  It's not, it's not the number. It has nothing to do with the number, but the Ethereum community is so rich and vibrant. And a lot of that is due to what Bankless does. Um, and so, uh, I love you guys for that. So thanks for, um, thanks for your contributions.

• 1:29:10David Hoffman?

  No, thanks, my man. Uh, I like to say it's like, uh, all Bankless is doing is reverberating Ethereum values louder to the rest of the world. So it's not like we invented anything new. Um, I mean, we invented the Bankless brand and made some good podcasts and some good articles. But basically it's just a tool for amplifying Ethereum values. Uh, and so at the end of the day, it's all layer zero.

• 1:29:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. Do you know, the neat thing is there's no other bankless. You know, like every time someone says, anytime someone's critical of bankless. I'm like, uh,

• 1:29:46Speaker 00

  could you do that? Why don't you do that? We need more of that. Why don't you do that? I will subscribe if you do that. And they get quiet really quickly because the energy and skill that you put into this is so unparalleled. That, you know, there's nothing else like it.

• 1:30:04David Hoffman?

  Thanks, my man. Yeah, part of the reasons, part of the reasons why I joke that there's no other bankless. It's just because anytime we come up with another podcast idea, we just take it and run with it. And so we end up putting like five podcasts out a week and five newsletters a week. Yeah.

• 1:30:22David Hoffman?

  Awesome, man. Well, Fizz, thank you for coming on and sharing your brain on Layers Zero.

• 1:30:26Speaker 00

  It was so great to hang out with you, David. Thank you.

• 1:30:29David Hoffman?

  Thanks, man.