More Than Someone’s Mom with Ashley Audrain

What happens when motherhood collides with disappointment, longing, and the parts of ourselves we thought we had to bury? In this raw and resonant conversation, Dr. Becky sits down with The Push and The Whispers author Ashley Audrain to explore the complicated terrain of identity, self-trust, and the forms of self-preservation we rely on to survive — and stay human — in the midst of parenting. Together, they unpack what it means to hold space for all the parts of ourselves: the ones we show, the ones we silence, and the ones still trying to be heard. Because being a mother doesn’t erase who you are. It just makes the work of knowing — and owning — yourself that much more essential.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  After my first baby was born, I treated my own recovery like a complete afterthought. If the baby needed something, I showed up immediately. If I needed something, well, it would wait. But research shows that when parents have the support they need, they're better able to care for their children. Taking care of yourself isn't separate from parenting. It's a huge part of parenting. That's why I love Frida's mission to prepare women for the realities of pregnancy, postpartum, recovery, and feeding. Frida creates solutions for the moments that often catch moms off guard. The Postpartum Essentials Kit and Breastfeeding Survival Kit help women feel more prepared for those early weeks of motherhood. Be motherhood prepared and shop Frida at Amazon, Target, and Walmart today.

• 0:43Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You might notice we're not in our typical studio, and that is because I am in the city of Toronto. And while I was here, I just could not pass up the opportunity to talk to author, Ashley Audrain. And let me just say what this conversation is not going to be about. This conversation is not along the theme of, oh, motherhood. Enjoy every moment, right? Right. That is not what we will talk about.

• 1:13Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't know about you, but by the time September rolls around, I am ready for cozy season. That's when I start thinking about Thanksgiving plans and travel that allows me to spend quality time with my family. I'm thinking board games, changing leaves, maybe even a living room with a fireplace where we can read our books together. Maybe you're the kind of family that loves an adventure and wants a cabin in the mountains somewhere. Or maybe you're dreading the end of summer and need to look forward to staying at a home on the beach with a view of the ocean. Or maybe you love to cook, so you want to stay in a home with your dream kitchen. Wherever your travel plans take you, it's the perfect time to get a little reset together as a family before the holiday season and craziness begins. But here's something you may not have considered. If you're planning

• 1:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  to go away this year, leaving your own space empty, you can list it on Airbnb while you're away to give another family some quality time in a home away from home. You get to make use of your space and you can earn some extra income to put toward your family's future travel plans. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 2:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  We're going to talk about so many different things, but let's just start kind of with you. You have these two books right here, The Push, we have The Whispers. And they're both books that like really touch on modern motherhood and kind of the dark sides of motherhood. And so what led you to start writing?

• 2:38Speaker 02

  Well, thank you for having me. First of all, it's really a thrill to chat with you. So I, you know, I'd always wanted to be a writer. I was doing something completely different with my life. I was working in public relations. And, you know, I, I think I, when it comes down to what to write about, like what to spark the initiative to write, for me, that was motherhood. And I had always sort of had this fascination with motherhood long before I decided to have children myself. I remember being younger and sort of looking at the mothers around me, you know, my own mom and my aunts and the mothers of my friends.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  And really having this awareness that like, it can't be exactly what it looks like, you know, there, it always felt like this, there was a performative aspect to it, to it, you know, even as a young girl, I remember thinking that. And I remember thinking like, why do women do this? You know, why do women become mothers? And why do they want to? And what does it really feel like? So I'd always been quite fascinated and then, and was, and went into motherhood myself with a lot of trepidation, wasn't sure if I was going to like it, or if it would be for me, or what it would be like. But, you know, as, as we know, life happens and you're in a relationship and we decided it was, you know, we were going to do this, we're going to have a baby and we're lucky to be able to.

• 4:02Speaker 02

  And then everything, so everything sort of went fine for the first, you know, fine pregnancy and fine for the first two weeks. And then, first two weeks after my son was born. And then when he was two weeks old, he became very, very ill, like overnight, almost. It was, you, he, he, he one morning just looked gravely ill and we rushed him to the emergency room at the Children's Hospital here in Toronto. And they, you know, took him right away and we could tell something was very, very wrong. And soon after that, he was diagnosed with like a serious chronic illness that eventually

• 4:41Speaker 02

  would, we knew he needed an organ transplant. So it was, it was, it was, I mean, that really just rocked us, you know, like really, as we know, motherhood to begin with is such a huge life change with so much emotion and so much going on. And then to learn two weeks in that you have a child that is that ill, you know, and that your whole, his whole life is going to, you know, this is going to be a part of him and us and our family forever was just, was so heavy and it was so much. And I remember at the time thinking, you know, you went through all kinds of emotions, of course, like, you know, scared and sad

• 5:23Speaker 02

  and worried and guilt and all of those things. But as the weeks and months sort of unfolded and we were living at the children's hospital and our lives were so, all of a sudden so medicalized, I remember like really clocking this feeling of disappointment. And as mothers, the one thing we are not supposed to feel is disappointed, you know, you are only supposed to be grateful and you are only supposed to see this as a gift. And, you know, all of those feelings were sort of taught to have. And while I loved and connected with this little boy, with this baby like right away, I was just, I was had such conflicting

• 6:05Speaker 02

  feelings about what motherhood was for me and what that was going to be like. It looked and felt nothing like what society had told me it would feel like. And so I guess he was probably around six months old and I started to get my footing again and we weren't at the hospital so much and. Life was sort of starting to come back and I remember thinking, I need to write my way through this. I need to write my way through these feelings and through this, you know, this whole experience. And so that I started writing then, what became The Push, what became my, my debut novel. And I think at that time, I just wanted to write about the darker side of motherhood.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  I wanted to write a story about a woman for whom motherhood was nothing like what she expected and nothing like what society told her it would be. And so while my main character, Blythe, her story is very different from mine, but, but, but all of that experience and emotion, all of that feelings, I think are in that first book about her. And I, and I really, since then, I've really just been consumed with writing about this other side of motherhood, the other side of what it means to be a woman and in that role and the expectations that are put upon us. I find that all fascinating, endlessly fascinating.

• 7:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Well, let's, let's actually start there with the, with the expectations, with the expectations. What you said really struck me. You saw this version of motherhood when you were a kid and there was a part of you that like called bullshit on it internally. So maybe that was, you know, that felt performative and that I'm sure relates to kind of these general themes we all take in of like what it means to be a mom or maybe it's like, what, what is a good mom?

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:52Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like, what does a good mom do? What does a good mom feel? What does a good mom think?

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, a couple of things there. Like I, I think, I really, I think as I became a woman, like grew from girlhood into womanhood, I think I really started to feel this pressure or this expectation that womanhood is motherhood, you know, that those two things are sort of like, I didn't have many examples in my life or I didn't see many women who chose not to be mothers, like I personally, like in my kind of sphere. And it sort of felt like, oh, we equate these, these two things, like to be a good woman is to be maternal.

• 8:30Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like you go from girl to mom?

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. Exactly, exactly. And there wasn't really that, like, to me, it was just, I remember the debate of whether or not to have kids or whether or not to become a mother. And it sort of felt like, well, this is just what you're supposed to do, you know? And intellectually, I knew better, but emotionally, I think I really was caught in that, you know, caught in that feeling of like, this is just what you do. And, and actually, there's almost achievement in that, you know, as a woman, it, being a mother felt like a sort of achievement for me that I needed to do or have or prove.

• 9:05Speaker 02

  And so life sort of rolled, you know, that way. You're, I know we've, you and I have talked earlier and I know you're doing such, having such great conversations about this idea of the good girl. And there is this also right alongside the idea of the good mother, you know, and what that is. And I think that those two things really feed into, feed into each other, you know?

• 9:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What is the good, what is the good mother do? Maybe we can go back and forth because I have, I have something I, I'll share first, you know, because I was actually talking about this with friends and we were kind of all laughing about it, that you have kind of your kids' class party announcement and they're like, here's the sign up for what everyone can bring. And we were kind of laughing.

• 9:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'll share that. I'm like, oh, I'm going to get paper towels.

• 9:55Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  For like the orange juice. And then on the other end, there's like the homemade cupcakes or the, you know, and, and again, we're talking in extremes. There's so much nuance, right? I think we know now, like, we can feel grateful and disappointed at the same time, although society doesn't tell us that's true. And so we don't live that truth, even if our brain kind of says it to us. And again, there are moments, you know, me too, I can make the cupcakes. And there are moments, every parent hopefully gives themselves permission to be like, oh, I'm going to sign up for paper towels and the easiest thing before someone else does that. But I guess to me, Like the good mother, yes, like shows up at the bake sale with not the paper towels

• 10:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  or not the home, you know, not the store bought chocolate chip cookies, but like the homemade cupcakes and I don't know, the icing probably looks really good and none of them toppled over, I don't know, in the car and like their kid didn't take a bite out of one and like put it back as like a prank or something like that. So that that's one version. I'm curious what kind of conjures up for you.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Exactly that. It's so funny today, even this morning, I had an email from my daughter. She's she's in grade two and I had an email from her teacher that went to all the parents of the class saying, we're going on a field trip next week and who wants to sign up for the field trip? And I saw the email and I thought it's that it's that you cannot get rid of that voice in your head that says the good mother would sign up for the field trip.

• 11:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Do I want to go on the field trip? No, I don't want to go on the field trip. And my daughter is going to say to me, did you sign up for the field trip?

• 11:28Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  And do I lie to her and tell her I signed up, but I didn't get picked? Or do I be honest with her? Or like, how do you handle this? You know, it's because the reality is like, I don't want to go on that field trip.

• 11:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What do you want to do that day?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  I want to, I want to write. I just want to, I want to write. That is what I want to do that day. And so do I say to her, I'm, I didn't sign up and I'm going to write that day? I'm going to work that day? And how does she feel about that? Or do I just say, Ashley, just sign up for the field trip and go, you know, it's like that. And it's so funny too. I was, my sister just had a baby, her first, and she was telling me about how, you know, she, the baby's only like two months old and so she's, she's still at home and she's getting her bearings and she's tired and the sleeplessness. And she had an afternoon where all she wanted to do was just sit on the couch and watch an episode of The Housewives. That's just all she wanted to do. She's, you know, all, we remember

• 12:23Speaker 02

  what those days were like. And so she said she put the baby next to her and she had her laptop and she opened her laptop and turned on the episode of The Housewives. And Of course she deserves to sit on the couch and watch an episode of Housewives. With some bonbons. With whatever she wants, whatever she wants. But she said that she felt like the baby was watching her and she felt like the worst mother, sitting there having this baby watch her, watch the Housewives. And I, and we were laughing, but I get it. It's like from the very beginning, you feel like, like, nobody was actually judging her. The baby is two months old, but you don't feel that way. You feel like you're not doing the right thing. You're not entertaining,

• 13:04Speaker 02

  you're not engaging the baby. The baby is watching you consume this reality TV show. You're not going for a walk in the sunshine. You know, it's like, from the very beginning to now, you know, these examples that we're sharing with kids that are older, it's like, it's this prevalent thing you cannot get away from. Yeah. Um, it's so hard. It's so hard to like, to do the thing that you want to do over the thing that you think you should do. Yes.

• 13:34Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't know about you, but by the time September rolls around, I am ready for cozy season. That's when I start thinking about Thanksgiving plans and travel that allows me to spend quality time with my family. I'm thinking board games, changing leaves, maybe even a living room with a fireplace where we can read our books together. Maybe you're the kind of family that loves an adventure and wants a cabin in the mountains somewhere. Or maybe you're dreading the end of summer and need to look forward to staying at a home on the beach with a view of the ocean. Or maybe you love to cook, so you want to stay in a home with your dream kitchen. Wherever your travel plans take you, it's the perfect time to get a little reset together as a family before the holiday season and craziness begins. But here's something you may not have considered. If you're planning to go

• 14:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  away this year, leaving your own space empty, you can list it on Airbnb while you're away to give another family some quality time in a home away from home. You get to make use of your space and you can earn some extra income to put toward your family's future travel plans. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 14:42Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, recently I actually did a poll on Instagram. Kind of just look, in any healthy relationship, I believe there's a balance. I don't mean 50 50, but just that both exist. Any healthy relationship involves some amount of taking care of yourself and some amount of taking care of another person. And sometimes there's this beautiful overlap where, wait, that's crazy. Like what I want for myself is exactly what you want from me. And there's this beautiful synergy. And yet most times there's not. And so there's this give and take, like, I'm not getting the thing I want because, I don't know, I'm making this up, but I've never gone on your field trip for 18 years. And today's the day I'm going to do it. And then there's, let's say, the other extreme of I've gone on every field trip for 18 years. And I feel like I'm going to scream and, you know, kind of go crazy.

• 15:27Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I'm totally losing myself. And today's the first day I'm going to say, not only did I not get picked, honey, I actually didn't even sign up. Right? So those are the two extremes. But what I asked was just which comes more naturally. Right? And our Instagram, you know, is, I think it's like 92% women. Okay. And so I said, what comes more naturally? Kind of gazing in and taking care of your own needs? Or gazing out and taking care of someone else's needs? What do you, what do you, what do you imagine though? Hmm. What was the response? Yeah. Out of 100, what was? Oh, like overwhelmingly looking out. Yeah. Everyone else's need. 90. 90. Wow. Right? Wow. Yeah. And then this, you know, one of the things I think about with motherhood all the time.

• 16:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And this, you know, and I was saying this to you earlier where, I think people used to say this about me and Good Inside. And I'm kind of, I hope people don't say this, like known for the scripts, for the tantrums. I love a good script for a tantrum. I love a good script for bedtime. I love a good script for a sibling argument. We all need those tools, but I actually really hope that's not what Good Inside is known for. And instead, if we're known for something, it's, it would be like women saying, I feel a lot more empowered and confident, you know? And I just happened to find that through my parenting journey. You know? Um, but one of the things that really came up through this poll, right? Was I feel so guilty when I take care of myself. Self-care feels selfish. Yes. Yeah. And

• 16:58Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I derive like my value, like my true value and worth by taking care of other people.

• 17:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:06Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And that's all true here. But then this other thing is true as well, which I find really interesting. While we're getting that short term, like filled up, kind of my old circuitry says I'm supposed to take care of everyone else and be a good girl, which means this kind of total self sacrificing moms, I never get my needs met. Which means there's going to be one moment when something very, very small happens and I completely lose my shit on everyone. And then what I always find extra unfortunate is then it's like, we end up apologizing, even though to some degree, it's like, wait a second.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 17:45Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I'm apologizing for this moment.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  But there's a whole ocean.

• 17:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Kind of underneath that.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, I really relate to that. I really relate to that. And as you're, as you're speaking, I'm thinking of this idea of like connected to something you mentioned earlier about like, what is the good mother? You know, what, what, and I'm interested, I'm so interested in how you would answer that question because I, sometimes I'll get that in when I was doing interviews for the push or for the whispers. Where, you know, those, those, I, I think they're very real, realistic, you know, portraits of mothers, the mothers in those books, but, but they're not, they don't always come across as the most likeable, you know, women or the most likeable characters.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  Which is something we talk about a lot in fiction, but like about women, characters and female characters being likeable or not. But I would often get asked like, well, what is the character, a good mother? And it, and I, this idea of this phrase of the good mother, it makes me feel like, it makes me cringe. It makes me feel icky in the same way that like a good girl does, you know? And so often, I, I really struggled with how to answer that question in, in interviews for a long time, or when I was talking about the book. And sometimes I would default to this idea of, which I actually don't agree with now, but I used to sort of default to this idea of it's, it's someone who's trying their best. Are you, are you always trying? Your best, well, then you're a good mother.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  And now I actually, I don't know if I believe that anymore because I feel like sometimes you're allowed to not always be trying your best and that's okay. And I think it's taken me a long time to acknowledge that or to feel that in myself as a mother. I mean, it's exactly, it's what we're talking about like is is giving your best, doing your best, bringing the nice cupcakes. Like, yeah, is doing your best, bringing the, you know, it's like is doing my best, going on the field trip? Well, yeah, I could, like, I could. So it's, it's like giving yourself permission to not be doing that or to not be behaving in that way. But what do you think?

• 19:44Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So my first reaction is actually very similar to yours, which is like, I feel like a cringe feeling.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:51Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Which I think whenever I notice that in myself with a question, part of me has learned to trust. Like, I just, I don't really want to answer that question. I mean, the only way I would answer that question is what does it mean to be a good leader? Because I think parents are leaders. I mean, I actually think, you know, what honestly, what, what draws me every day to like, want to continue doing this work at Good Inside is, is actually thinking about parenthood that way. There's a lot of intention and effort and work going to understand leadership in the workplace and leadership in sports. And we've actually kind of revolutionized how we think about those two fields. We're like, you really shouldn't yell at your employees anymore.

• 20:32Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Not only because it's not nice, it just actually doesn't get the best out of them. And berating professional athletes isn't the way to go. We should work on their self-talk and help, whatever it is, right? And yet with children, it's like the last area to like, humanize. And I guess I think about good leaders, or what I would say is like a sturdy leader, as someone who's able to be connected to themselves and connected to someone else at the same time. That you have enough boundaries that you know what you want. And that, not in any given moment, like a field trip, because that really limits how we define ourselves. But let's just say over the course of time, or some amount of time, a month, I'm making that up. I, in general, kind of know what I need and I can get my needs met.

• 21:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I don't know about you, but by the time September rolls around, I am ready for cozy season. That's when I start thinking about Thanksgiving plans and travel that allows me to spend quality time with my family. I'm thinking board games, changing leaves, maybe even a living room with a fireplace where we can read our books together. Maybe you're the kind of family that loves an adventure and wants a cabin in the mountains somewhere. Or maybe you're dreading the end of summer and need to look forward to staying at a home on the beach with a view of the ocean. Or maybe you love to cook, so you want to stay in a home with your dream kitchen. Wherever your travel plans take you, it's the perfect time to get a little reset together as a family before the holiday season and craziness begins. But here's something you may not have considered. If you're planning to go

• 22:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  away this year, leaving your own space empty, you can list it on Airbnb while you're away to give another family some quality time in a home away from home. You get to make use of your space and you can earn some extra income to put toward your family's future travel plans. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at Airbnb.com/host.

• 22:26Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  So one of the things in the push that I that I kept thinking about is I'm kind of on this tear. And the most extreme version that I don't even believe in, but I'm kind of going to say it just for impact, is there's no such thing as maternal instinct. And the reason I think that's a powerful thing to think about is I think there's just no other thing we do in life that's hard and important, like parenting. There's nothing else like that that we tell people they should do solely on instinct. Like, it would be cruel to tell doctors, you know, oh, you have an instinct for being an oncologist. People would be like, oh, I probably should still go to medical school, right? And I think this idea of maternal instinct is what makes so many moms feel broken and like a failure

• 23:09Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  when things are hard. Because if something should come on instinct alone, and if you're having a hard time, there's really only one explanation. Something's wrong with you or something's wrong with your kid. Having said that, I definitely believe that there are these moments of maternal or paternal intuition. So there are these moments where like you just know, like, and I think sometimes you know something's going on with your kid and a doctor's like, they're fine. And you're like, I just know not to leave this office. Right. And that plays out. And I'm just curious how you think about instinct, about intuition, how that played out in the push, how you think about it in your own life.

• 23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, and I wrote about this a lot in The Whispers too, because like this, just this idea of The Whispers, you know, as it relates to women and mothers is, is that thing that you, you do have, I think that you really do have a knowing about things a lot of time. And I don't know if it's instinct, but it's a knowing. It's like a knowing that you feel within yourself. You know, it could be about your marriage. It could be about a friendship. It could be about your children. And I think there, there's this idea that, you know, a lot of times with, with that knowing or with these whispers that we have, it's like, they're, they're sort of like always there. And the question is more like, do you want to listen to them? Like, are you open and willing to sort of listen to it or not?

• 24:30Speaker 02

  And a lot of that comes down to like, how much we trust ourselves, right? And how much we've been made to feel like we can trust ourselves or not, you know? And so much of this, I think, comes, so much of it, I think, as women, comes down to childhood and the ways that as girls we were raised. And I thought about this so much, because I was never someone who, I was not like, I didn't like to babysit. I didn't love to like role play, motherhood sort of stuff. But I, but I really noticed that like my daughter really does, you know, it comes to her very, it comes to her more naturally than I, than it ever did to me. I can see that in her and I've always seen that in her. But I've also been very conscious about the way that I speak to her about that.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Because I think that we can often speak to young girls in a way that presumes their maternal ability or presumes their interest in motherhood. Like, we might say to someone, like, we might say to a little girl, like, people would say to my daughter, "Oh, like, when you're a mom, you'll see." Oh, well, when you're a mother, this, this assumption that you will be one, you know? And it starts that young. Like, we get the idea in our head that young.

• 25:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You're gonna be such a good mom.

• 25:37Speaker 02

  You'll be such a good mom. Or I would say, you know, and I, I was guilty of this. I write about this in The Push, because the main character experiences this. But I would even say to, like, friends who were expecting, I would say, "You're gonna be amazing. You're gonna be a natural. You're gonna be such a good mom." And, like, you hear that over and over through your life as a young woman. And so when it doesn't necessarily feel that way, when, when it doesn't feel loud and clear for you as a mother, you do start to doubt yourself and you do think something's wrong. So I just think it starts so young. And I, I know with my daughter, I try to be so aware of that, that there can be, you know, that, and again, it comes back to what we mentioned, that tie between womanhood and motherhood and how that better be there, that instinct better be there, you know?

• 26:21Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, well, look, me and you both have these deeply feeling kids. I know yours, your son, mine's my daughter. But one of the things I think about her in terms of, you know, childhood and how that relates to adulthood and kind of confidence and trust is believing your kid's experience.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  So true. And a lot of what sort of I had written about in The Push with Blythe, the main character, and her experience of motherhood is she's having doubts. Like, she's having doubts about the way her child's behaving. Like, is she noticing things? Like, she's, she's having those, those feelings, those, like, gut feelings about sort of what's going on in the family and the dynamic. And, and, you know, she certainly grew up in a way where nobody was telling her that they, that she was never having that validation of her feelings or her experience. And she very much carries that through to womanhood. And then even her partner can't do that for her. You know, even her partner never says, "I believe you."

• 27:19Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Doubts her.

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, he doubts her. And her mom- Mother-in-law doubts her and everybody around her doubts her because her truth is inconvenient. You know, we're talking about this inconvenient woman and she she becomes that, you know, in that book, that what she believes to be true is not convenient for anybody else around her. And in fact, it's uncomfortable. And so there's no validation, there's no belief. And so, yeah, you can really see how as a as a child, like, just just programming a kid to to know what that feels like.

• 27:50Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yes.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  To be believed, you could you could see how, I mean, my hope is that my kids carry that through and they don't have that doubt in themselves or they don't need the outside validation as much, you know.

• 28:00Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah, I'm just thinking about that binary that like, I don't love to think of binaries. I like to think that multiple things can be true. And it does feel like this binary, like either either I can prioritize what feels true.

• 28:16Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Or I can be convenient to everyone else.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:20Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And you often can't, you often can't do both.

• 28:23Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 28:24Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Right?

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 28:25Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And I think as women, yeah, like being convenient, pleasing, being so attentive to everyone's needs that you can meet other people's needs, maybe even before they say them.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 28:38Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Which obviously requires you to completely self-abandon any type of attention to your own needs. We got a lot of, we got a lot of reinforcement for that, right?

• 28:49Speaker 02

  Yes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I really feel that. Um, I really feel that. A, I think when my kids were very, very young, I had a really hard time with that. And I don't think I did practice that. I think, you know, I, my little piece of that was stealing a few hours every week to go write. You know, that was, we would have a, so lucky to have a babysitter come a few times a week. And instead of doing the groceries for the family.

• 29:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Yeah.

• 29:12Speaker 02

  Or going to a workout class that I knew I needed to do, or cleaning the house, or whatever it was. I really tried to fiercely protect those hours to run down the street to the coffee shop with my laptop and just write. Because I knew that's what I wanted to do. I did not have a book deal. I was not getting paid. I was on maternity leave. Like I, there was no financial incentive to do that. There it was, I just knew that I needed to do that for myself.

• 29:39Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  What was the feeling in you of writing? How would you describe it?

• 29:41Speaker 02

  Oh, it was a real freedom. It was a real freedom, I think. And I felt most myself when I was writing. And I, I think. The experience of motherhood, especially sort of in those early days of like going through all the medical stuff and everything was so I did not feel myself. And actually, you know, it's so interesting is that at the, I mean, it's, as we said, it's such a big identity shift anyways. But I think this is very common of most children's hospitals. But at the children's hospital, the staff who are just incredible, they cannot keep track of a child's name and all the parents' names. They just can't. It's not, it's hard. That is a hard thing. And so they know your child's name, but you are always referred to at, my son's name's Oscar. So I was

• 30:25Speaker 02

  always referred to as Oscar's mom, Oscar's mom, mom, mom. And so for months in that hospital, nobody ever said my name. Like you just, and so you, it's just this real tangible, you know, erasing of kind of who you were. And, and there's such, that's, that to me was so symbolic of this real loss of identity at that time. But when I was writing, it was like back to me. It was just for me. I wasn't sharing it with anybody. I never thought anybody would read this book or whatever it became, you know, it was just an exploration of my own thoughts and ideas and all of that. Now, I, there's such privilege in that. I really acknowledge that. There was such privilege in having a babysitter and being able to go do that, you know, during the day sometimes,

• 31:08Speaker 02

  like a couple of times a week. But, but that was, that really, I think, was like a taste for me of like doing, having the thing I want, being inconvenient, you know, the convenient thing would have been to get the groceries done and do the laundry and help everybody else in the family. But, but as my kids have gotten older, like they're now seven and almost 10, and I'm finding, I am feeling, we were talking about this, feeling a little more space for that, it becomes a little easier. Yeah.

• 31:36Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Couple of things I just want to say about that. You're right. So, so number one, this idea of that when you do start to wonder about what you might want for yourself, or I describe it for me as like what lights me up inside. That's the feeling, like, it feels almost explosive in like a good way. Like, I feel, I don't know, I just feel like lit up, like the light bulbs go on when I'm doing something that really fulfills me in that way. Almost always it does go hand in hand with inconveniencing someone else. Like very rarely do the stars line up when everyone's gonna like give you an applause or be like, you go, girl, you deserve that. Just and I just think knowing that helps. The other thing I want to say is that yes, you and I both have older kids, right?

• 32:18Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Mine are seven, 10, 13. This is so much easier now, like just literally the hours they're out of the house. Yes. You know, their ability to put on their own shoes and tie their own shoes, the fact that, right? Like if we don't have a snack when we're out, like it's not kind of World War III. Like those things weren't true in my house years ago. And the fact that they are true now is literal more energy and space. And, and the last thing I want to say, and I think you and I probably both have heard this from women is people say all the time, okay, babysitter or no babysitter, I have an hour to myself. Why do I feel like I'm having a panic attack? Yeah. I, I don't know what to do. I don't know what I would like to do. I don't know what would feel good. And this feels more anxiety producing. And so I'm just gonna deep rage clean my house. Exactly.

• 33:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  And then yell at my kids when they're home and maybe my partner, if I have one for leaving the house so messy, which by the way, I only say that because I used to be a pro in that pattern. Yeah. Okay. So just a couple of things about that. And this is one of the things I actually talk a lot about in our mom rage program, which is one of the ones I'm proudest of, which I'm gonna rename because it's not just about moms, but it is this kind of feminine kind of version of ourselves we're told we have to be and how that leads to rage is if you had a friend who was starving, literally, they hadn't eaten in 10 days or maybe, you know, 35 years, let's say, and they were presented with a menu and they were like, I just don't know what to order. I don't know. Nothing sounds good. I don't know what

• 33:47Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  I would like. I don't even know what to do. I know the advice we'd give them. Just because you don't know what you want, doesn't mean you shouldn't try something. Hmm. And it's the process of ordering something.

• 34:02Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Where you'll learn over time, like, I like that wrap. I did want a burger. I did want a salad, whatever it was. But you would never tell a starving friend, well, if you don't know what you want, just don't order something. Right. Just don't eat. And I think the freedom of like, I won't know what I like until I dabble. And it might take you thirty dabbles. Yeah. Where you're like, I actually hate watercolor painting. Why did I even think that was me? Okay, you know, or you know, I do like to take a little walk around, you know, the block, but I wouldn't have known that if I didn't give myself permission to try something. And I know for myself, when I adopted that attitude, I just knew rage cleaning maybe was on the menu, but I just had a feeling it wasn't my best order. Yeah.

• 34:46Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  Like other things were like, gonna have a little bit more high potential. Yeah. Um, and I, I feel like for anyone listening who's like, okay, Ashley, Dr. Becky, you guys have your lit up things. Like, I don't even know. That's okay. I think you and I probably both started there, but just the freedom to try without knowing if you like it. Yeah. I feel like was a big kind of step more soon. Thank you.

• 35:12Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  You know, parents carry a lot. In fact, data show that most parents spend every waking hour caring for someone else. So if you feel exhausted and stretched thin, you're not alone and that makes sense. And look, I also know from experience what a relief it is to find caregiving support, finding a babysitter you trust and your kids will have fun with. That makes it so much easier to go back to work or travel or yeah, even go on one date with your partner. Care.com makes it easier to find trusted, background-checked caregivers with search and hiring tools you won't find on social media. Whether you need full-time help or just part-time help with morning drop-off

• 35:54Dr. Becky Kennedy?

  or after-school care, care.com can help you find nannies, sitters, and daycares. And you can find the expertise that matters to you. Think homework help, CPR training, or experience with multiple kids. And if you're considering daycare, you can search, compare, and request tours and could even get a discount on daycare tuition as a care.com member. If you need more support, care.com can help. For a limited time, you can use the code BECKY35 to save 35% on a care.com membership. When it's not you, it's care.com.