Hollywood Stuntman Trampas Thompson: Life on The Edge, Expanding Consciousness & What It’s Like To Be Birdman

Today's guest isn’t famous. He hasn’t written a book. He's not an in demand speaker. But I can almost promise that you have seen Trampas Thompson — you just didn’t know it. Working behind the scenes, Trampas is a Hollywood stuntmen extraordinaire, collecting blockbuster credits performing a dizzying array of delicious, death-defying acts in some of the world's most popular movies and television shows. Trampas has run the streets on fire, sword battled with Johnny Depp in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies and most recently doubled Michael Keaton in Birdman. Yes, that was Trampas, not Michael, who lept off a New York Theatre District rooftop in the most memorable scene from last year's Oscar winning best picture. His credits are impressive: The Dark Knight Rises, National Treasure, 21 Jump Street, Indiana Jones And The Kingdom Of The Crystal Skull, The Wolf of Wall Street, and on and on. But what drew me to Trampas as a great fit for the podcast actually has very little to do with his work. Far more fascinating? Who he is. What kind of person becomes a stuntman? God broke the mold with this guy. Larger than life, Trampas is one-of-a-kind. A renaissance man living life full throttle 24/7. The kind of guy who survived a skydiving accident when his parachute didn’t open, then jumped again. A person unapologetically himself, incapable of doing anything half-assed and utterly fearless. This is another epic, thoroughly entertaining 3-hour conversation with a truly singular human about living life on one’s own terms. It's about dragonfly tattoos, synchronicity, Burning Man and the never ending spiritual quest to grow and expand consciousness. It's about what it means to hand-wring the adventure out of life. I sincerely hope you enjoy this conversation with one of my favorite people. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  My intention is to, just like, with my heart as wide open as it can, like, jump into the air. And, like, I'll think of smashing my head in the concrete, you know, or like planting it. I don't think of the graphicness of that, but it's just like, you know, I'm intending to touch it, you know? And it stops me, right? But there's no fear, and there's nothing diminishing my bandwidth. So as a result, like, my consciousness expanded, my heart is wide open, and in that space, like, I'm open for those things. One, to enter, and also to be aware of it.

• 1:40Rich Roll?

  That's Hollywood stuntman Trampas Thompson, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:59Rich Roll?

  Hey guys, what's happening everybody? It's Rich Roll back at you with another midweek episode of the RRP, the show where I converse with forward-thinking minds across all categories of health, wellness, fitness, athleticism, entrepreneurship, environmentalism, mindfulness, spirituality and consciousness. And the formative idea here is to just get us all to think more openly and broadly about our lives and things that matter so that together, we can grow into our best, most authentic selves. So, thank you so much for tuning in today, for subscribing to the show on iTunes, for leaving us a review on iTunes, and of course, for always using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases.

• 2:42Rich Roll?

  The holiday season is upon us, you might find yourself on Amazon trying to pick up a gift here or there. Well, it would mean a lot to us if you could first click through our banner ad. Does not cost you anything extra on anything you subsequently purchase, but Amazon kicks us a little bit of loose commission change, sends it in our direction, and that really helps us keep the bandwidth flowing and keep this little podcast going. So, we appreciate everybody who has made a habit of that, it means a lot. So, today, we're going to take a little bit of a left turn to venture into a subculture, a world that I know virtually nothing about, the world of Hollywood stuntman, and in particular,

• 3:22Rich Roll?

  the life of a guy who is really a Renaissance man, my friend Trampas Thompson. He is a completely unique, larger-than-life character, and we had a lot of fun with this conversation. Much more on Trampas in a second, but first. You guys want to talk about today's show? Let's talk about today's show, Trampas Thompson. Trampas Thompson isn't famous, he hasn't written a book, although I think he should, he isn't on the speaking circuit, the guy doesn't even have a website, but no doubt, you have seen him, you just didn't know it was him. Trampas has worked behind the scenes in Hollywood as one of the industry's most

• 4:03Rich Roll?

  in-demand, experienced, and accomplished stuntmen, collecting this insane list of blockbuster credits. The guy's lit himself on fire, he sword battled with Johnny Depp in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies, and most recently, he doubled Michael Keaton in Birdman. Yes, that was Trampas, not Michael, who leapt off a New York City rooftop in one of Birdman's most memorable seminal scenes. And we tell a really funny story about that experience in the podcast today. Trampas's IMDb page just goes on and on and on. The Dark Knight Rises, National Treasure, Indiana Jones, The Wolf of Wall Street, on and on and on. But what drew me to Trampas as a great fit for the show is much less about his work

• 4:42Rich Roll?

  and more about who he is, how he lives. He is a truly authentic, one-of-a-kind, larger-than-life character. He's just one of those guys who lives life full out, all the time, incapable of doing anything half-assed. He's always jaunting off on some harebrained adventure on the other side of the world, unapologetically himself, and always utterly fearless. For a little context, we're talking about a guy who survived a terrifying skydiving accident when his parachute didn't open. And now, he recalls that story in a way that almost brings a smile to his face. And this thing that happened to him that would absolutely traumatize a normal human being, he's able to talk about it and laugh with fondness.

• 5:27Rich Roll?

  It's just amazing. So, this is a great conversation with a truly unique human being. It's about living life on one's own terms. It's about seeking out the adventure in life. And it's about the never-ending spiritual quest for growth and expansion. So, without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, Trampas Thompson.

• 5:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, uh, no, John Joseph's in town. Um, I was in Vegas. I think he called me on Sunday. I still gotta call him back. I've just been super busy. Have you seen him since he's been in town?

• 6:05Speaker 01

  You know, I haven't. I've been like texting with him a little bit and, and actually it's very funny because I've, I've been at this like, you know, like visionary plant-based convergence over the weekend. And so like all these people that are in like medicine plants or whatever we're in and talking and, and, um, Dimitri, I forget Dimitri's last name, but it's the guy that when we were at Crossroads, John had mentioned,

• 6:25Speaker 01

  like it's, it's a friend who did all this stuff with Iboga and is doing like addiction therapy and stuff like that with Ibogaine, which is a, you know,

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  I don't know who that is, but.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  But he had mentioned him to me and, and of course I, I see him and I, I said, hey, like, I, I think John mentioned, you know, like your name to me. I, you seem familiar. And we started talking about John and, and of course he's like, you know, like I've been like, I'm just trying to get off meat, you know? It's like, it's like, he's like every single, he's like every single medicine journey I've had in the last whatever 20, 30 years. He's like, every single one tells me that I've got to stop eating meat. He was like, but to me it's like, it's harder to kick than heroin, you know? He's like, I just am like addicted to that thing. And like, of course I, I tell John, I text John and John's like, that's bullshit. Tell him he's a pussy to stop eating meat, right?

• 7:13Speaker 01

  And then I saw, and then I saw him today at, uh, at Locally and he had a huge kale salad. He was just like, yeah, like I was just like,

• 7:23Rich Roll?

  John like shamed him into it.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  No, totally. It was totally like, so I took a picture and I sent it to John. I haven't heard back from John yet, but it was so perfect that I just like randomly saw it.

• 7:31Rich Roll?

  That's pretty funny. I mean, well, like if the medicine is telling him the same thing again and again and again for 20 years, but he's not modifying his behavior.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  Well, right. It's like in every way, like he's modifying his behavior in every way, except for like, except for that. And John, you know, like, like John was like, tell him you can't get into all that spiritual shit and eat dead animals.

• 7:50Rich Roll?

  That's pretty funny, man. Um, yeah, I mean, it's tough because John, you know, I want to see John and, uh, and I'm sure, you know, he wants to see me, but I live like a freaking hour away and the dude like doesn't drive, won't get a rental car. It's like so short of like me driving to him and picking him up wherever he is and going to do something.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 8:08Rich Roll?

  It's like, come on, man. Just like get your driver's license sorted out.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 8:12Rich Roll?

  Like, I don't know.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Does he not? He doesn't have a driver's license?

• 8:15Rich Roll?

  No, he comes to LA and he stays, you know, he was staying with Tao like downtown last time, like downtown Los Angeles. Uh, and, and I still like dropped him off. That was after Crossroads when I saw you there.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:27Rich Roll?

  I took him back there. I think he's in West Hollywood now, um, but still.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  But he's here training, right?

• 8:32Rich Roll?

  Well, he was gonna do the Super Frog Triathlon, uh, that was this past weekend, yesterday, um, in San Diego, but he like aggravated his calf muscle like shortly after he arrived in LA and decided not to race.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  So I think they're recording their next, next Cromax album. So he's working on his record.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  So he's in town?

• 8:53Rich Roll?

  So he's here, yeah, he's here for another week or something like that, I guess. So, anyway, man, let me see that tattoo.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 9:00Rich Roll?

  That is, that's crazy.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  It's crazy, isn't it?

• 9:03Rich Roll?

  That is, I've never seen a tattoo like that. The, the sort of realism, but also like the surrealism of that woman's face is.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  No, it's amazing. I mean, in this part, the part that like blows me away is like this right here, which looks like a blotch, right? But like this would be like if your airbrush kind of misfired in the air, like sprayed paint all over it, even this like line, this almost imperceptible line, like a really thin paint sort of being blown by air. And, and the thing is, is with an airbrush, that's a one second mistake, but on a tattoo like that has to be designed. Like he designed that, you know?

• 9:41Rich Roll?

  So who is this guy? Like I remember, first of all, like we've been trying to make this podcast happen for a long time.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:48Rich Roll?

  It was like, dude, it must've been like a year ago where we were trying to figure it out and you're like, I'm going to Italy.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:54Rich Roll?

  Like, why are you going to Italy? Cause I'm getting a tattoo. Like, you're gonna go to Italy to get a tattoo?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  He's like, no, you don't understand. This guy, this is the guy.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. So the story like, I, I have to sort of start at the beginning of that story, right? Like, which is, um, you know, people see the tattoo and they're like, oh my God, that's a, what an amazing story. Well, the story starts with the fact that I was. Doubling Michael Keaton on Birdman.

• 10:17Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  And I was in New York City and I uh was uh and there was a gag where like in the movie, if you've seen the movie, like he is on top of the roof and the guy's like, do you know where to go? And he's like, yeah, I know where to go. And he runs off and he jumps off this building and ends up flying all around Manhattan.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  And you're the guy who basically did the jump.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 10:35Rich Roll?

  We're gonna get into all that.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:36Rich Roll?

  But we'll tell the tattoo story first.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Okay, so um well, the the impetus is that I that while I was in air, in the midair, like one of these times that I jumped, a dragonfly flew across the street and I saw it because my, you know, awareness was very expanded. Like, it's a kind of gag that I could do really, you know, like, not very easily, but like, there's not a lot of adrenaline. I wasn't closed down or like, I just was in.

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  You're only jumping off a building.

• 11:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But it was like so, my mind was so expansive. So like, I looked across the street and a dragonfly, I mean, like something black was coming at me like a bullet and it landed on my arm. It turned out that while I was flying in the air, like a dragonfly landed on my arm, right? So like, I mean, that just was this magical moment. And as you do, you know, there's much more to that story. We can unpack it a little more later. But like it, as you do, when something like that happens, when you're, you know, like flying in the air a hundred feet off the ground, a dragonfly lands on your arm, you're gonna get a tattoo, right?

• 11:32Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  And so, so um, yeah, I was, you know, like, thinking I was like, obviously, I was gonna get dragonfly tattooed on my arm. And and I ended up, um, a friend of mine, um, and I actually put this on Facebook at one point, and I said, a friend of mine, and her name's Stephanie Dennis, like, she was, she was mad because she was like, oh, yeah, I'm a friend. You know, I totally turned you on to that guy. Like, so Stephanie.

• 11:54Rich Roll?

  Credit where credit is due.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. So she turned me on to this guy and and his website, and his name's Jay Freestyle. Um, Jay Hong is his name. He goes by Jay Freestyle. And he's from South Africa. He's Chinese, from South Africa, lives in Amsterdam and tours the world, uh, like tattoo conventions and guest spots all over the world and stuff. And and so as the like, it was this year, you know, he was gonna be in LA, like in December, January, and I I checked him out. And I was like, hey, I was like, hey, man, like, I know you're gonna be in LA. And the Academy Awards were coming up and it sort of reinvigorated me to like, you know, get this tattoo. Like, I thought, wow, if I could get it by the time the Academy Awards roll around. And I was like, are you booked up in LA? And he's like, oh, yeah. Right?

• 12:36Rich Roll?

  There's no way.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  So I look at he, look at his schedule and and he's like. Uh, in, in Sydney, you know, like not, not long in February, maybe I'm like, what about Sydney? Booked, you know, just get back booked. Berlin is next. What about Berlin? Booked. And I'm like, okay, bro, like when and where? And he replies back, June 8th in Brindisi, Italy. And I was like, okay. Like, I was just like, okay, like, I guess I'll go do that, right? And so then of course, June, June rolls around and yeah, I ended up like traveling to Italy. And the thing about this guy is he like designed it on the spot. Like he didn't do any research. I didn't have any drawings. I told him sort of the story, which he really wasn't

• 13:22Speaker 01

  super enthusiastic about, which was good for my ego, you know?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. I was like, I was expecting him to be like, oh my God, I'm going to sign them. Oh, that's just amazing. And he's just like, okay, so you want dragonfly on your arm? I was just like, I was like, awesome.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  And, and then he sat there, I, or like I stood, I stood in front of him and he sat there for like two hours and like looked at my arm and then he would do these like long blinks, you know? And, and, and it felt to me like he was like seeing it on my arm and then erasing it. And sort of seeing it and erasing it. And, and finally, after about an hour and a half, he started drawing and, and

• 14:03Rich Roll?

  Is he drawing on paper or is he drawing on your arm?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  He's drawing on my arm. Like he designed it, came up with it, designed it on my arm entirely. And then we went and had lunch and then for five hours, he like tattooed it on my arm. And it was something that like, other than, you know, the inspirer, he was like, do you want some flowers? And I'm like, you're sure, right? And he put these like, like these lilies on my forearm and, and, and eventually I'm going to meet him again, like somewhere in the world and he's going to put a, some like geometry, like sacred geometry, flower of life and other kinds of like

• 14:30Rich Roll?

  But where's the, where's the dragonfly?

• 14:32Speaker 01

  So the, yeah, that's

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  There's no dragonfly.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Sort of like, it's this kind of like, it's almost like, you know, there's all this digital pixelation and it's like the dragonfly is kind of like bursting out of this person's, who's sort of in this meditative state's brain, you know, like sort of, I mean, I think that might be what it means. I don't know. It's just like

• 14:48Rich Roll?

  It's great podcasting because no one can actually

• 14:50Speaker 01

  I know, it's just like

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  If you think about it, like, if you're going to have somebody, you know, create art on your body, doesn't it deserve that level of, of kind of like respect? Like, it sounds crazy to go all the way to Italy to, to, to get with this great artist, but like, When you actually think about it, that makes more sense than like going up to Hollywood Boulevard.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:13Rich Roll?

  And letting anybody looking through a, you know.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  A book of flash or whatever, yeah.

• 15:17Rich Roll?

  Have somebody do whatever on you for the rest of your life.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, and I, you know, like I have those stories too. Like I, I've been in a story where a guy did a tattoo on me and like, when I, when I went to talk to him earlier about the tattoo, um, it's a tattoo on my ribs and it's, it's like, it's written backwards and it's from the like Shakespeare's first folio and it says, this above all to that own self be true, you know, and it's for me to like see in the mirror. So it's written backwards and it's in this first folio font. So actually, when you're looking at it, it looks like Elvis or something. It's completely illegible. And I went in and talked to him about it and he had like Shiva, anatarraged statues and, you know, I have a tattoo of Shiva.

• 15:52Rich Roll?

  Shiva on your back.

• 15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so like.

• 15:54Rich Roll?

  Like it covers your entire back.

• 15:56Speaker 01

  It's, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, so, uh, I, I saw, you know, he had these statues and of course like that's, there's no coincidence. Like this is the guy, right? And, um, he, uh, you know, we were talking about Joseph Campbell and Alan Watts and like all these sort of like mythic things and Shakespeare. I came back like, you know, I decided I was gonna do this tattoo. I came back at night like a week later and he was, you know, like had, had, had the radio blasting so loud and it was just like this thrash metal that probably makes the Cro-Mags look like, you know, like children. Like, it was like, like, it was so loud and I, and I went up to him and I was like, you know, like, hey, man, like I was mouthing, like I was screaming at him and it looked like I was just mouthing the word, you know, his music was so loud. He's like, tells me to hold on and he's like listening in reverence, it seems, and he's

• 16:41Speaker 01

  poured himself like four fingers of scotch and, and like, and I was like, oh, oh my gosh, right? So then he poured himself another four fingers and then, uh, we start getting ready and he does it and he gets almost, you know, like three quarters of the way done and, and smokes a bowl and pours another four fingers of scotch and he, uh, early on he'd offered me some scotch, you know, like, and I was like, no, no, no. And about that time I was like, yeah, maybe I think I'll have a little bit of that scotch right now. Cause it was just like, I'm either gonna have an amazing tattoo or an awesome like rock and roll tattoo story, you know?

• 17:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  And it turned out all right, you know, it turned out all right. And then it turned out that the guy wasn't, like I'd gone there because a guy at that shop had like, was great with like script, you know, and like really doing really fine detail work like that. Well, that guy had actually died 10 years before of a heroin overdose. So I wasn't even at the.

• 17:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, it wasn't even the guy.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  It was the wrong guy.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  And you know ironically, I was telling the story to somebody, I told the story to somebody. The next day, I was talking to another guy and in this group that we were hanging out with and he starts telling this story. I was talking about the, my dragonfly tattoo on my arm, just how great it is. He was like, yeah, at least it wasn't the guy where like, you know, he showed up drunk and the one guy was dead. And for a second, I was like, yeah, like what kind of idiot would get themselves in that situation, right? I literally thought that and I was like, oh wait, that was me. Like somebody, like somebody has told you my story already, right?

• 18:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's funny.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  It was really, really funny. But yeah, like, so the difference is like, you know, this guy's like, his phrase, it's on his website is, is, it's tattoojay.com by the way.

• 18:16Rich Roll?

  Tattoojay.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, Jay Freestyle, yeah, yeah. And Jay Freestyle on, on Facebook. Amazing. And just, you won't believe the artwork that's on it, on the page. But he says, give me a piece of your skin and I'll give you a piece of my soul. Which I think is just a radical way to like get a tattoo, you know, like it's just so amazing.

• 18:36Rich Roll?

  It's a partnership.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And for me, like, you know, I'm, I'm a control, like I have to be in control in my job and like I'm, you know, like make aesthetic and, and creative decisions and like I'm, I'm about directing those things, you know? And, and I had to fully surrender, you know, like fully, fully surrender to that tattoo. And, and that was a huge leap for me. Not only did I surrender, but I flew to Italy to surrender.

• 19:07Rich Roll?

  For the purpose of surrendering.

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 19:09Rich Roll?

  You're not gonna tell that guy what he's gonna do.

• 19:10Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 19:11Rich Roll?

  You're going to him so that he can do what he does, he does, and you're trusting in that.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:16Rich Roll?

  And the permanence of it, I mean, that's heavy.

• 19:18Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, to have a, you know, this face on my, like I never wanted a tattoo of a face of, on my arm.

• 19:23Rich Roll?

  It's not, you couldn't have predicted what it was gonna be, obviously.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  It's a thousand times better than anything I could have imagined. You know what I mean? I said, like by saying yes to that, I said yes to that experience and then like what? Was returned to me is like so much greater than what I could have. You know, I could have like a very realistic, maybe watercolor style painting of a dragonfly on my arm.

• 19:45Rich Roll?

  But then why go to that guy?

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. You know, it's like, it's so, it just is, you know, and this is like, like I let him do his thing and I mean, it's just beautiful and you know, like sometimes you get a tattoo and you're like, oh, maybe I regret that a little bit. Like a little buyer's remorse, but like it's, there's not an instant where I've just haven't been just like, this is one of the, you know, like greatest decisions I've made, you know? Really, really cool.

• 20:07Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, I think it would be, it would be kind of lazy to say like, oh, well, you're, yeah, but you're a guy who, you know, you're impulsive. Like, cause you kind of live this adventurous, some sort of life. But I don't think that's really quite accurate. I think there's a, there's more of a, a method in the, in the surrender, to use your phrase. And like what's gotten you from where you were to here. So let's track it, man. I mean, you know, like what's the, what's the log line, you know, sort of stunt man, spiritual warrior, you know? Vegan ambassador, like how do you like, you know, at a cocktail party when someone says, what do you do? Like what's the, what's the response?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  You know, yeah, I, I, I, I mean, I say typically I say I'm a stunt man, which is actually strange because I've made my career as a stunt man. And I'm, I've been stunt coordinating for a number of years now and, and I'm actually making a transition and moving into becoming a director. But um, yeah, my life is, is um, you know, I grew up on a cattle ranch in Texas. Like my dad's a cattle rancher. I'm, I'm from a town of-

• 21:09Rich Roll?

  Brothers and sisters?

• 21:10Speaker 01

  I have a sister, a younger sister.

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  It's like Panhandle, Texas, right?

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. North of Amarillo. And this town is 304 people. Like it's so small.

• 21:19Rich Roll?

  You know what? You might, you might be sort of, did we talk about this with Julie? Cause you know, her dad's from Amarillo.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, from Amarillo, right?

• 21:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I bet, I bet on some way you've gotta be related to my wife.

• 21:31Speaker 01

  Probably, probably. Or, or I'm sure that like my parents know her dad.

• 21:36Rich Roll?

  Somebody knows somebody who knows Julie's dad, I'm sure.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  In fact, no, you're, because her dad was at the, at the book signing, right? And I talked, I actually talked to him for a little moment about it, yeah. But I don't remember if it, if it turned out that he was my uncle brother, or, or what.

• 21:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we'll figure that out later. But most likely brushed up against somebody.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. Probably like, yeah, my dad probably knows him, or certainly my, my grandfather was a big cattle rancher in the area and stuff like that, you know?

• 22:06Rich Roll?

  So like full on cattle rant, like how many heads of cattle?

• 22:09Speaker 01

  You know, it would depend. At one point we had like, um, 13,000 acres leased, um, and we're running a couple thousand head of cattle on it. And we'd always like, you know, like Sunday would be, my mom would go to church and if we didn't get a load of cattle in, we'd go to church and, and, um, and if we had cattle or had to move cattle, you know, we would, we'd either go on a big cattle drive or we would, you know, brand and process and do all those like cowboy things that you do. Which is interesting because I've given up both church and cattle, you know?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  It's like, it's, uh, yeah, those are neither of those things that I just mentioned are things that are in my life at all, you know? I, I mean, spirituality is certainly part of my life, but the kind of association with those things is not who I am anymore, you know?

• 22:55Rich Roll?

  There's been a disproportionate number of, of like people that I've had on the podcast that are kind of in the vegan movement now who grew up on farms. A lot of the doctors grew up on dairy farms, it seems like.

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, right?

• 23:06Rich Roll?

  Recurring theme, yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  It does, I think, you know, and, and one of these things that I like, this thing that I come back to a lot because it, it, it, um, and I don't know if it's what, what got me out of it in a way, because there was a long ways, like I, what I was saying about Dimitri and that sort of like giving up the meat and, and you know, like how difficult that is, like, I would never have. You know, like, I would never have been able to have done that. In the nineties, I couldn't even fathom not eating meat, you know? And, uh, and there was a period where, you know, I had a lot of vegetarian friends and a lot of, uh, I mean, much less being vegan and, and as you say, like vegan ambassador, you know, like I, like, i- i- it just wasn't, I couldn't have done it. And I started practicing yoga and I,

• 23:49Speaker 01

  and, and at one point I was like, you know what? I realized that I hadn't had a choice. And it was less about a compassionate choice than it was about like, okay, I'm surrounded by all these people. I have a practice that's about making invisible things visible. And I'm, I'm living a lifestyle that's unconscious because I've never, was never able to make a choice about it. What would happen if I made a choice, you know, and, and so-

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  It's never presented as, as optional or a choice. It's just, this is, this is what people do.

• 24:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, for sure. And-

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  If you're on a cattle ranch, then even less so.

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Well, and everything in my life was provided by it, right? Like, every opportunity, my parents, like, my parents are still together. They've been married since nineteen sixty-seven. They, they live outside of Dallas now, much closer to my sister. Um, but, uh, but always, always supported me, always. You know, we were never rich, but like, I was never lacking. You know, like, if I needed anything, like, we could make it happen. And all that money came from the cattle business. You know what I mean? So it's like, in, in a lot of ways, it was like, you know, like, and, and you know, people say that, it's like, well, it's American, it's our history, it's, we're meat eaters or that. You know, it's like giving up that, like, for me, it was exactly that. Like, it was my heritage.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  It was what my parents did, and it's what my parents did to provide me with everything, you know?

• 25:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, an added layer of like, almost betrayal.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 25:13Rich Roll?

  Built into that to say like, I'm not gonna do that anymore.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 25:16Rich Roll?

  So how do you get to, how do you, how do you navigate that to get to that place? Like, where, where that, you know, decision is presented to you?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  You know, um, well, I was in LA and, and, uh, I was, I was, uh-

• 25:31Speaker 01

  Doing a lot of yoga, I was practicing yoga, um, and, and as I said, like it finally, like I, I was in my car one day and I just was like, you know what, I'm gonna try that out. I'm gonna see what happens, cause it had been sort of circling around me for some time, you know, it'd just be like.

• 25:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but where does the skydiving thing come in?

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Well, that was.

• 25:47Rich Roll?

  This is the story that I'm, I'm trying to drive you towards the skydiving.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Well, with this guy, well.

• 25:52Rich Roll?

  Episode.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  But that's like, you know, like, I was still a full on media when I was a skydiver, so, so, so the reason, I mean, even the reason.

• 25:59Rich Roll?

  That wasn't as directly related.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  No, but the reason that I, that I even became involved in yoga, right, was because I had had this injury skydiving. So in the mid nineties, I was, um, you know, I'd come out here, I thought I was gonna be a stunt, stunt man, I was still like, um, pursuing acting, I was still a visual artist, but I wanted to, you know, I was really trying to be a stuntman, I didn't have my SAG card, but I was, I was skydiving, if you remember like in the early nineties and then, you know, like, like all of these, it was one point break was like the biggest thing.

• 26:29Rich Roll?

  Right, I was gonna say, this is Johnny Utah.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  No, full on dude, it was full on, you know, yeah, full on.

• 26:34Rich Roll?

  How ironic that the remake is about to hit the.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Oh, and it's gonna, I just am not excited, like it's, it's.

• 26:40Rich Roll?

  It can't have the soul.

• 26:42Speaker 01

  That's the thing, like I.

• 26:43Rich Roll?

  Soul of Johnny Utah is deeply rooted in Keanu's incarnation of that character.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly.

• 26:50Rich Roll?

  So formative of our youth.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly, and you know, it's so like, and there's such a difference now, you know, I mean, I really, um,

• 27:00Speaker 01

  I, I hate sequels, I mean, the other, the only, you know, like Empire Strikes Back being the like, obvious exception, you know?

• 27:06Rich Roll?

  Right, or maybe Godfather two still.

• 27:08Speaker 01

  For sure, you know, but the, uh, but like, these remakes and these sequels and they just like, they don't, you know, there, there is no heart. Although I find myself sort of being like a, you know, kind of crotchety old man about that, when, you know, I can imagine my parents trying to get me as a young kid to try to watch. You know, the Manchurian Candidate or something like that. And it would be like the, you know, like sequel or the remake with Denzel Washington or whatever that is exciting and more for my gen- or you know, it's actually really for the generation after me. But like that kind of way, like I think of movies that were, you know, those movies, Point Break. It's like, you know, the action, there's no CG, there's no, you know, the, it's, it's, it's like, it, you know, is the, it was the innovator of all that stuff. And as a result, but that was before like,

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Travis Pastrana or somebody could do like five backflips on his BMX bike and, and, and land it, you know, now we see something that's like a zillion times more exciting than anything in Point Break on YouTube, you know, like and, and, and kids do it. Well, they do it because of Point Break, you know, but, but it's still much more fascinating, exciting. And so it makes those movies seem a little like slow, but even still, these movies then just become about that. Like, like, like I can imagine that, that, that the story of this movie, Point Break, like, I don't know, like, I'm in the movies, like, sorry to my friends who are like, who worked on it. Like, I don't even know

• 28:30Speaker 01

  who's involved in it. But, but I imagine that that movie is going to have like zero soul and be all about the action. Like,

• 28:39Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, it's gonna be like a, a, a constant like GoPro video on YouTube because they got the wingsuits and they're jumping motorcycles from, you know, off cliffs.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Right. It's like everything now. Like the, the big thing in, you know, like it was surfing and skydiving in, in Point Break. But I will like, like I, I catch myself like passionately advocating Point Break as a movie with like soul and just like, did I just?

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Did I just say that?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  So we clearly I, I understand.

• 29:11Rich Roll?

  The best part in Point Break is that like how all those cops like, uh, they knew like Johnny Utah's like high school football statistics.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 29:18Rich Roll?

  Like, as if like a normal person would actually know something like that about high school football.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 29:24Rich Roll?

  We're getting like way into the weeds here. But I think the point I'm making is that, is, look, the movie business really, you, you know, the, the art aspect of it has become so marginalized. They're, they, they are. You know, roller coaster rides to sell merchandise.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 29:38Rich Roll?

  Most part and a theatrical release is nothing more than a billboard for, you know, the long term revenue stream that comes from a tent pole film. And I was just at the movies the other day with Julian. You know how they, all the ads that come before it and then you get to that ad that like the theater chain does. That's specifically about like where the exits are and turning your cell phone.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Oh, right, right.

• 29:58Rich Roll?

  Where to, where to, where to buy the coke and everything. And they, they do it from the point of view of you actually sitting in, in a roller coaster. Like, you know, little whatever cabin. And I'm like, I'm like, they're making the point so obvious, like this is not about anything other than just being on a roller coaster ride.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 30:20Rich Roll?

  It's not meant to leave you with anything more than that. And that's like sad and tragic.

• 30:24Speaker 01

  No, for sure.

• 30:25Rich Roll?

  And that's not to say that there isn't amazing art being made in film and, and certainly in television now with the explosion of all this amazing. You know, all the distribution channels available to it, but you know, the, you know, the three days of the Condor. And, you know, the, the great movies of the seventies and all those, you know, the amazing Cine East and, and, you know, directors of that era. Like they would never be able to make movies now.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. Not at all. Not at all.

• 30:50Rich Roll?

  But for a guy like you, there's probably a lot of employment opportunities.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Oh, well, totally. You know, I mean, yeah, exactly. Like it's, you know, but, but even that it's like I, I, you know, I find that. Like I want to tell, like at my heart, I'm a filmmaker and a storyteller and I want to tell stories that are, that have soul and have spirit, you know, and, and. And again, it's, it's almost like, like, um, kind of moving away from this, you know, like cattle ranch lifestyle, you know? And then moving into a, a, a sort of portion of the industry where like my contribution is. Like the number of people I've murdered or the times I've died or the violence that I've contributed to, to the film. Like that's my job. Like it's like, oh, we need to have somebody get there. Like, oh no, like we want to have like somebody get like, you know, killed with the post hole diggers in the face.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Like we've never seen that before. Bring Travis in. Let's see how he like, kind of like.

• 31:43Rich Roll?

  Do you feel like you encourage?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  That's my contribution, you know?

• 31:46Rich Roll?

  Psychic karmic debt doing that, or like, what does that feel like?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Well, no, you know, again, it's just sort of a thing that I, you know, like I sort of relate that to me growing up on a cattle ranch, you know, it's sort of, it, it's kind of a, maybe a way of growing or a thing that I have gone through, you know, like, um, and, and, but it's, but my soul isn't, it's not where, that's not my soul anymore, you know, like my soul is to, to tell these stories that are, that are, and yeah, maybe I do, like, maybe now it's like, in the same way that like, you know, having, and I, I've told people my whole life, like, I ate more meat by the time I was like, 25, than, than most people eat their whole life, you know, like, and, and so, yeah, there is a, like, I have a kind of a retribution,

• 32:30Speaker 01

  you know, or a kind of like, uh, um, a payback, you know, and part of that is like being this evangelist or an advocate of, of a, of a plant-based lifestyle and really like, you know, making sure that people know like what really is the cost of that, like, and so, if I take that on and I get marginalized because of that, well, that's, I mean, I'm all right with that because it's, it's, it's my duty now, it's a thing that I have to do, you know, and, and in the same way, it's like, all right, now I have these stories that I have to tell and it, and it kind of galvanizes me to tell the stories because of, of kind of, of what I've contributed, but what I've, you know, like, what I've done, you know,

• 33:11Speaker 01

  when I tell, when people ask me about my job, I tell them, I, I get paid a ton of money to travel the world with like all of my best friends and act like a six-year-old and, and most of the time we have like swords and guns, do you know what I mean? It's just like, it's stupid.

• 33:27Rich Roll?

  It's like what you would do when you were, yeah, like seven years old in the basement on Saturday morning.

• 33:30Speaker 01

  That's exactly it, you know, and it's like, that is like, I mean, you know, that is like a childhood dream come true, but it's exactly that, it's a childhood dream come true, you know, like, and, and, and as I've kind of grown older, I have other things that I need to accomplish, but I will never take away from the fact that like, like that has been the, the most profound blessing that, that I've had in my life, you know, I've just been like gifted with this incredible opportunity to like, be a part of this thing that I dreamed of, to have like amazing friends, to travel the world, to have these like amazing opportunities, you know, and, and have my heart open, you know, to, to just like,

• 34:12Speaker 01

  Fulfilling my dreams, you know, it's like, people don't get that. And so it's again, it's a little bit like that thing of the cattle ranch where everything that I had was, came from the, the beef industry, like eating meat, you know, and, and providing that gifted me with every opportunity I ever had. And in the same way, like, that's how this, you, you know, like, eh, how this, this, uh, experience in the film industry is.

• 34:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a weird, uh, it's a weird juxtaposition for sure. And it's a long road to travel for a kid, you know, in the panhandle of Texas to, you know, swashbuckling with, with Johnny Depp.

• 34:50Speaker 01

  Well, right, exactly.

• 34:51Rich Roll?

  You know, it's crazy, right? When you think about it, or jumping off buildings and pretending you're Birdman, you know, on, on the set of, of, of Birdman with Michael Keaton. Um, and then that, that kind of, you know, additional juxtaposition of being in, um, in occupation that is sort of the touchstone of which is, is sort of, uh, uber masculinity and bravado and, and, and, you know, sort of fearlessness and all of that. And being this, you know, sort of compassionate vegan guy, like, those two, those two things are not like, you know, necessarily kind of like compatible on the surface in the minds of most people, so.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Right, and it's been.

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  I would imagine that's a tightrope walk in and of itself. That's its own stunt that you have to pull off.

• 35:34Speaker 01

  For sure, for sure. And it's been really interesting because like, you know, a lot of people like, I mean, you know, like, um, like the, the, the guys that have run the business, I mean, almost like, like, uh, politics and whatever, but it's old white guys, you know, like it's how, like, in particular in the stunt business, right? And these guys were.

• 35:54Rich Roll?

  It's gotta be a pretty insulated, small, little world. Like, you know, all these guys and.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 35:59Rich Roll?

  There's probably only like a couple of people that make the decisions because it's not like the producers or the directors know who you guys are, there's somebody who knows, right? Like, I'll just make sure you get the guy.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Well, sure, you know, but I, I mean, you know, like a bunch of producers have, you know, like different producers have their different guy, you know? It's like if somebody like worked on it, you know, like, so I'm gonna stunt coordinate for this particular producer or live producer.

• 36:19Rich Roll?

  Or a big movie star probably has a guy they like, right?

• 36:20Speaker 01

  For sure, definitely, definitely. You know, and those guys will bring their, they'll bring the guys on. But, you know, the guys that got entrenched in the business in the, you know, like late 50s or the 60s and the 70s, you know, they were the cow, they were kind of the cowboys of, of the industry, right? And, and then as young people have kind of come into the business, they've, in a lot of ways had to. You know, maybe adopt like it's who you know, like, like stunts is who you know, right? More than, more than almost any other part of the business because if I don't, as a stunt coordinator, right? If I don't know you, if I don't know what you can do, if you haven't come highly recommended from somebody that I do know and trust, like, how do I know that you're not going to,

• 37:04Speaker 01

  one, get yourself killed, or two, and far worse, get someone else hurt or killed, right? Which then is gonna reflect really badly on me and, and then my career's done, right? And even if, you know, like, look, there's stunt coordinators that have had huge accidents and they still work all the time, but like, I'd like to sleep at night, you know, like, I don't want to be carrying that around, you know? And so, I, you, we have to know each other, right?

• 37:31Rich Roll?

  And there's no, it's not like you go to school for this, right? It's an apprenticeship scenario.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's, you know, people come at it for different ways, like, but, like, for example, if, if somebody's like a world-class gymnast, they may come in and, and, and be, you know, want to be a stuntman, or they work for Circus Soleil or some kind of thing like that, right? But that person doesn't know how to fight. And so then they're gonna have to like, learn how to, what the angles are, how to throw a punch, or how to take a reaction, and some of these other things that like, aren't necessarily what you would train to do, you know? I mean, there are like some stunt schools, like the people go to, which, you know, and I always, uh, I'll tell people to like, go to a stunt school. If there's a place where you can learn, if somebody's gonna like, set you on fire and, and create a safe situation with no pressure of getting the shot, or ego, or, you know, like having to impress somebody, or somebody trying to like,

• 38:22Speaker 01

  put you down, or, or whatever kind of other energies there's there. If you can learn how to do those things in that environment, and if you have to pay money to do it, that's great. But the problem that happens is, one, because yeah, it's like there has been this sort of like, hey, hey kid, I'm gonna take you under my wing, you know, this old cowboy's gonna like, bring you up, bring you up, and, uh, You know, so there is that kind of like idea that that's how the, you know, the old guys wanna like sort of pretend that that's how the business works, even though they really like, you know, once you get to a certain age, you're like not able to do that thing that the 20 year old kid can do, but you still wanna work. And, and so even while there's a, it's not like I'm directly gonna pass on like everything I know so the next generation can do it.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Cause if the next generation's doing it and I haven't like transitioned to being a stunt coordinator or directing like I'm not gonna be doing it anymore, right? So like, I'm gonna pretend that I'm seven years old until I'm 70 years old or can't, you know?

• 39:14Rich Roll?

  Tell the, you can't.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  And you see that, I mean, oh my gosh, you see that so much in the business and, and even if it's not, you know, so like there is this idea that, oh, those suckers are gonna groom the young kids. Well, it's not exactly like that, right? So, but you don't want somebody to come in and be like, oh, I went to so and so stunt school and I have a diploma in, in jumping off of a 10 story building. So like, you know, bring me in.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Cause that just doesn't, it's not like, it doesn't work like that, right?

• 39:45Rich Roll?

  Like, so, so how do you like?

• 39:47Speaker 01

  So I would say that somebody should like, I mean, I would say that they should like, you know, go to that school, learn those things.

• 39:53Rich Roll?

  So there are like trade school programs.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  Well, not, I mean, there's like kind of workshops that you could do or like a, you know, like a month long place you can go up to. There's a, there's a school up in Seattle and there's places all over. I mean, really the way like, I, I, I don't, I mean, it's not like I say like, oh, that's the way to do it. But again, if you wanna go somewhere that's sort of safe to do a thing like that and get the skill in a way that you might not otherwise. So that when the opportunity comes and someone says, hey, I've got this fire burn that I'm doing.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  I need somebody to run safety and then you know, you have the confidence to be able to be there and be on that team as a second or third or fourth guy, which then gets you the opportunity to kind of be brought up. And then you're, maybe then you're primary with a fire extinguisher, like the guy in the hotspot really putting, I mean, not in the literal hotspot, but in the like, they like primary spot, like with, with the responsibility of like

• 40:43Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  making sure this guy gets out, right?

• 40:44Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  And then you're, you know, then you're doing the burns or whatever, but it's like, like you're not trying to, you're not having to learn that on the job. You're, you know, you've got yourself in a position where you can confidently say, yes, I can do that. You know, which is a huge difference between stunt people. Like when somebody says to me, yes, like they have got to be able to do that thing. Where like it's, you know, like you know this, like it's typical that actors will be like, oh, hey, can you ride it? The worst is like riding a horse, right? Can you ride a horse? Yes. And then they get the job and then they like, you know, then they like spend the next 24 hours like trying to learn how to ride a horse. You know, and it's just like, it never, it never kind of works. And what actors don't realize is that that, you know, in particular with fighting, you know, like if they're not able to do those things, like,

• 41:26Speaker 01

  you know, the vision is getting compromised all the way down the road, you know, like the director may want to do it in one shot, which means the actors have to do it. And if the actors can't do it, then I either have to simplify the choreography as a stunt coordinator, bring in doubles, which means that you have to do it in cuts. Like there's no way to do that in one, if you have doubles.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  And, and, and, and if that doesn't work, if we can't like fix it on set, then the editor's going to do it. And then that actor's going to get an Academy Award for like, you know, like whatever sort of swashbuckling, fight thing that they did. And then the next time, like you're sure not going to be able to like convince them that they need to rehearse, because they're the guy that won the Academy Award for like that action movie.

• 42:01Rich Roll?

  They don't know how to do it.

• 42:02Speaker 01

  They're like they, yeah, and their lack of ability compromised the whole thing, you know, like start, finish.

• 42:08Rich Roll?

  But as a stunt person, I mean, the stakes are so much higher.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  Exactly that. So when you say, yes, I can do that, you have to be able to do it. There's no like, oh yeah, I can do that.

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  I think I can.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. Like you, you know, and often like, um, I mean, there's ways that, that like, oh, I've trained in a specific way and I can, I know that I can pull that off. I may never have done that before.

• 42:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, yeah, I was going to say like, if you, you must've been in a situation where they said to you, hey, this is what we're thinking. We want to do this. Can you do it? And it's something you've never done before.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 42:37Rich Roll?

  You said yes.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Of course, but, but even then. I have like related skill or a kind, you know, it's like I've been like, all right, I can do, these are the things that I can do. So I know that I can push it to that far and, and make that happen. You know what I mean? I have the confidence to make it happen. I'm not going like, yes, yes, I can do that. And being like, oh my God, how am I gonna learn how to do that? You know, it's like, and, and that happens all the time. I mean, obviously, we're always innovating action or we're doing different things. You know, I did this, um, I did a really awesome, I mean, awesome, meaning big and huge and cool, uh, fire burn on the TV show, Southland, a number of years ago. And, and they wanted a guy, um, running out of, like, the storyline in the, you know, like, that you find out

• 43:22Speaker 01

  that gets revealed is that the guy was inside a, uh, an adult bookstore on Coanga Boulevard, just south of Hollywood, right? And, which is there, if you wanna go see it, right?

• 43:31Rich Roll?

  It actually is.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  There is, there's an adult bookstore on Coanga, south of Hollywood. And, and, uh, you know, Southland was kind of that show where they're like going around the car and they're talking and they, they turn off of Hollywood onto Coanga and out the door runs this guy on fire and runs down the block and, and falls down and they, as they like, you know, kind of slide the car in front of him. And, and the owner of the bookstore is like chasing me with a fire extinguisher and puts me out, you know? Um, and so it had to be, you know, like, uh, normally you do a fire burn and you burn for a little while and you fall down on the ground and four guys come out with fire extinguishers and safety suits and put you out and, and, uh, and, and, and obviously you cut right before all of that, right? Um, but this was like, I had to be put out on camera. So

• 44:15Speaker 01

  like, one guy is chasing me down the block, um, with one fire extinguisher.

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  And he's an actor, he's not.

• 44:20Speaker 01

  No, he was a stunt guy. Oh, no, no, he was a stunt guy for sure. Um, and, and, but like I, my face and my hands, I couldn't have like a lot of goopy gel on it because I was gonna be on camera without, um, any fire to obscure that, right? So I had to be that, you know, had to be like visible and not. Obvious, right? Um, and they wanted the fire to be huge. Like the, the thing was like a Q-tip, like they really wanted like human torture, a Q-tip running down the street. And, um, buddy of mine, his name's Jason DeMigno, and he has a company called Action Factory and has put together like this fire package of, of, he developed a, a stunt gel where you can put it actually on skin, you know, like right on, uh, so normally a traditional

• 45:04Speaker 01

  fire burn is like lots of layers of protective clothing and you might put gel on your hands or your face.

• 45:08Rich Roll?

  And the gel is flammable, so it's the gel that's burning?

• 45:11Speaker 01

  The gel is actually like protecting you, right? So the gel is like a hydrogel, like it's either, you know, like there's a high content of water or it's cooling and it's in such a way that so like if your hand were to get in the fire, you know, or the flame would come around on your face and you're wearing this gel, like it, it's not gonna burn you, right? But you couldn't stay in the fire, right? That's kind of traditionally how it's been. And, and if you watch movies in the eighties, you see like, you know, the guy and he gets lit by the barbecue and the next thing you know is like a giant monster wearing like a big safe, like racing safety suit, you know, like

• 45:41Rich Roll?

  I've seen that.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  Fully on fire and, and, you know, like really protected. Well, this burn on Southland was, um, you know, so Jason had developed this gel and we had R and D'd it in, in his backyard for a long period of time. But the gel is that you can, you can actually put the gel on your skin and it's kind of viscous enough that you, um, can, it'll, it'll hold, it'll, it'll be a platform for the fuel, right? So like I could put it on my arm and it's about maybe an eighth to a quarter of an inch thick and then, and then put fuel directly on top of that. So it actually looks like my skin is on fire, right?

• 46:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  And, and, and, and having that also has allowed us to like go smaller with the layers of protective clothing, right? So, so I have fewer layers of clothing. I, I don't look like a big bulky monster, plus, you know, like I'm, I, I have fuel, I have this gel up under the top of my head, so I have fuel under the top of my head. On the bottom of my neck, it's protecting me, huge, huge, huge fire and nothing on my face, nothing on my hands. Um, my ears are protected with this gel, but there's literally fuel on the top of my head. So like, and then, and then also on top of my clothes, up my arms and legs, front and back.

• 46:50Rich Roll?

  And what kind of suit are you wearing? You're just, what kind of clothing are you wearing?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  So I'm wearing several layers of, of like cotton and nobex or, or PBI, which are, you know, like fire retardant layers and, and. Two of those layers have been saturated with the gel. Then I have like a, uh, some kind of barrier that like would keep the wetness of that from making my wardrobe wet. And then I think I was wearing like a, you know, like a flannel and a, and jeans, you know? But those have been like treated so that they won't, uh, I mean, they're, you know, they're gonna burn, but they're not gonna flash, right? They've been, they're like fire retardant. They've been, we've treated those. So it's, so it, so it really doesn't look like, um, I have layers of anything on at all, right?

• 47:34Speaker 01

  And, um, yeah, I ended up running, you know, like I ended up running down the street and like, like doing this thing. And that, but the thing about that burn, um, you know, like it was, um, and I would say like, so, you know, people might not have been available. It's just like, we're gonna like, uh, hey, yeah, here's this thing going on. Like, yeah, unavailable. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm working out of town. You know, something like that. But he and I had, had, had.

• 47:58Rich Roll?

  Is that what you say when like, you don't really wanna do it?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 48:02Rich Roll?

  You don't wanna like, you don't wanna look like you're afraid or whatever. You just say you.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  What are the dates on that again? Oh, yeah, I'm working out of town.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully. And, uh, um, but you know, Jason and I together, like, if, if it had been anybody else prepping that burn, like I probably would have been less confident, right? And if he, if it had been anybody else doing the burn, he would have maybe not gone as big, right? But the two of us together made this just like massive burn, you know? And, and, um, and it turned out to be really, really great. And, you know, I honestly don't know why I brought that up, but I will tell you like one of, one of the things about that, like one of the magical things about that, like, you know, I say that, so here's my job. It's like, I get paid a ton of money to travel around the world with all of my best friends and act like a six-year-old with swords and guns, right? And that's most of my job. And then every once in a while, there's a job that like, like that where I don't, I don't know what's gonna happen in the end of it, right?

• 48:56Speaker 01

  Like, I'm either gonna be a rock star, which fortunately was how it played out, right? Um, I'm gonna be, um,

• 49:07Speaker 01

  Dead, or I'm gonna be in the burn ward, right? Cause I've ingested fire. And those are the only three options in my whole life, right? Like, I know we're gonna start this thing probably around noon. By 12:15, I'm gonna be done. And of this sort of zillions of possibilities that we all live in all the time, like, my life has come down to three. And two of them are radically transformative.

• 49:35Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's crazy. Yeah, there's no, I've never really thought about it like that, but that's so true. It's, it's not like, no one's gonna go like, alright, man, good job. You know, like, on to the next thing. Like, it's either like, oh, my god.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:47Rich Roll?

  Or, or it's like, oh, whoa, now we have a huge problem.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  No, yeah, right, exactly, exactly, exactly. And that was, you know, and the thing about that is like, you know, I don't know how, I, I don't know how other guys are, you know? Like, again, I'm sort of like, in a lot of ways, I'm a bit of anomaly where I'm just like, I, I, am, you know, I'm sort of this like spiritual stunt guy, right? In a way, you know, and, and a lot of guys are like that. But, but, um, I mean, for me, it's like, that, that kind of awareness, that sort of like, the options being limited to that thing, like, kind of like, really narrowing it down to this, to these, to this simple thing. It's like, I'm either gonna come out of this alive or, or not. And I've chosen to do it, so I, I can't be afraid of it. I mean, I can be afraid, but I, but I need to overcome it, you know?

• 50:35Rich Roll?

  Right, that can't impede the action. But, I mean, what is that?

• 50:38Speaker 01

  And so for me, so, so like, I, like, I'm like, how, okay, how, how am I gonna design the hours that lead up to that, right? How am I gonna live my life presently to, you know, so I like, you know, at the time, I was, I, uh, was married and I, and I made sure that my, uh, wife knew that I loved her and I, and my, uh, dog was still around and I like, you know, grabbed him by the side of the face and just looked in his eyes and had that like now moment of him being like, you know that I love you, bro, you know? Like, I listened to my favorite album, you know, on the way to work and, and does, you know, the night before, like, spent some time with the moon, like, got up and early enough to see the sunrise, like, designed my life in a way that was fully present.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  And that kind of like, like presence, that awareness, you know, that likes, that's a real gift, you know? And it's a gift that comes in some ways from like knowing that In a few hours, I might be dead or radically transformed. And, and the crazy thing is, is that like, we all live that life, you know, that's our life, like.

• 51:41Rich Roll?

  Well, the adage, you know, it's the annoying trite adage of, you know, live each day like it's your, like it's, you know, like it's your last.

• 51:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 51:48Rich Roll?

  Whatever. But like when you're, when your job is to place yourself in such a heightened situation, it really does snap that focus, you know, directly onto what's most important. So, you know, the question is, you know, what is it about you that like, drove you into this career path where you found this to be like the attractive way to live? You know what I mean? Like, we're in a culture, you know, our cultural sort of paradigm is to, you know, go up the middle, like, you can like get the job, you know, make sure you have the good insurance and like, you know, get the job and, you know, whatever, right? And, and what you're doing is really, you know, very much an outlier kind of, you know, career path.

• 52:28Rich Roll?

  Uh, and I would say the positive side is like, yeah, maybe it gives you a heightened appreciation for what's important and, you know, the immediacy of, of, of life, right? But, uh, but what is it about, you know, your character that is driving you towards this sort of, you know, sort of repetitive scenario where you're repeatedly putting your life on the line to, you know, for, for like a movie? It's not like you're a fireman, you know what I mean? So there's the childhood kind of fun aspect of it, but there's something inside of you that's attracted to like these kinds of stakes, like the live or die stakes.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  For sure. I mean, you know, but again, I think that it's, I, I have two words. The answer is point break.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  But like, obviously, um, but I, I think that like, you know, again, I, I, there's always been to me, you know, when I was younger and, and honestly because of point break when I was skydiving,

• 53:28Speaker 01

  there was a, a real spirituality to that, right? Like I was, I was, um, you know, I trained as an actor and, and was always sort of seeking this, you know, like actors are trying to be like present in the moment and like this whole kind of this sort of like real presence and real connection and, and it's very elusive, you know? And when I, the first time I went skydiving, it was just like. You can't think about your laundry. You can't do anything but this thing that you're doing, you know, and, and, and I created, you know, like all these metaphors about it where like, you know, you jump out of the plane and like, there's only fear in your life when you're on the precipice, right? There's only fear on the ledge. And as soon as you jump, like you're, it all unfolds. Do you know what I mean? You grow wings or you, you know, like you're going

• 54:12Speaker 01

  on that path, like gravity is going to take you to the ground. So like you better figure out how you can get there safely, you know, like, and it's up to you in that way. But very much about being fully alive and fully as close to death as you may be. And, and while, you know, I think skydiving is, is super safe, you know, and I think it's safer than, you know, like driving in your car, you know, like I, I think that, I mean, it's funny, like people are like, oh, I can't believe you ever went skydiving. That's so crazy. And of course, you know, I lost a lot of credibility when I broke both of my legs.

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  We're still answering like my first question of this podcast is let's talk about the skydiving incident. But, but I am, you know, look, you know, you're not sitting here because you're a stunt man, you know, it's like, okay, that's interesting to me. But what's interesting to me about you is, is the kind of, you know, sort of spiritual warrior perspective that you bring to your, not just your profession, but your life, right? And so, you know, I want to get to the origin of, of, you know, where that began. And it seems to me like, I'm sure it started very, you know, maybe it started in, you know, in, in vitro or, you know, in, in utero. But it seems to me that, you know, if you could point to one incident that kind of triggered a different

• 55:32Rich Roll?

  perspective on, on how you're living your life, like this skydiving incident seems like as good a place as any to, to park it.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I think so, for sure. I think I'd already like prior to that, I had, I'd kind of developed this way of being, you know, I think most people laugh at situations like, oh, we're gonna laugh at this someday, you know, like, and I've always been able, and I think that that's part of being, growing up as a cowboy, right? Or, or in a cowboy family of like, We laughed at everything all the time, you know, like, and, and so, um, while some people are like, oh yeah, someday this will be funny. We'll look back at this and laugh. You know, like, I've always been able to be in a situation and be able to be like, oh, this is actually kind of funny, right?

• 56:10Rich Roll?

  So Yeah, we were talking about this before the podcast began, but you know, you strike me as a guy whose natural disposition is to like, laugh and find joy in whatever situation you are like, that's just how you carry yourself.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  For sure, for sure. And, and, and yeah, like, so then having that or being in that space, and again, that's something that I owe to, fully owe to my parents, you know?

• 56:32Speaker 01

  There was, there, it was always like, I, I grew up in an environment that was full of love and full of support, you know, and, and full of sarcasm too. Like that was the, that was hugely part of it, you know, and

• 56:43Rich Roll?

  So when you're, when you're on the cattle ranch and you announce that you want to be an actor or perhaps a stunt man, this can't be going over very well.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Well, no, and it was, and honestly, like I, I always wanted to, you know, even then I also wanted to draw comic books. So I was like, I was an artist and an actor and, and, um, yeah, it was just, it was like, it was, it was more than that. I mean, I remember one day my dad was like, you know, and I really always wanted to be a pirate. That was a funny thing. Like, I really was like, I didn't know how to like, express it, but like, I wanted to be a pirate, you know? And, and, uh, you know, I wanted to get my ear pierced as soon as I could get out of like, the house. And I remember one day my dad had like a ear tag, you know, like a gun, you know, like the ear tag gun. And he was just like, if you, oh yeah. And he was just like, if you get your ear, he goes, you want to hear, you know, like, he was gonna like, threaten to like, you know, like, give me an ear tag, you know?

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Because I was like, I'm gonna get an earring, you know, like, so it was, you know, it was definitely like, um, what's the, uh, there's a, there's a U2 song that's like, it says like, you know, every, uh, I forget this song, but it's like, every artist is a cowboy, every, uh, something is a thief, I forget, every, you know, and it's like, I realized like, Like my dad and I were very, very different, you know, like we had and we had a lot of conflict and a lot of times. Conflict that never like overrode his support of me, you know, like I really, um, and probably like just, you know, more to his personality and graciousness, cause I've, you know, there's a period of time where I wasn't super receptive to that, you know? But then I realized like we were that sort of like cowboy artist kind of

• 58:19Speaker 01

  those things, you know, like we, we both wanted to be pirates. I think we can kind of like relate to each other in that, in that pirate way, you know? And, uh, but yeah, there was always the, the humor and, and always kind of a fun sarcasm and a way of being like on the hot seat, right? So it was like,

• 58:38Speaker 01

  one day you might be the, or one minute, you know, you might be the, the butt of all the joke and everybody's laughing at you, right? And then not two minutes later, I'm going to trip over something and, and fall down in cow shit and I'm going to be the butt of the joke and everybody's going to be laughing at me and I would have been the one that was like fully like leading the Right. The jo- you know, the joke on you. And, and so it was never personal and it was always Malicious. Yeah, never malicious, but always knowing that you were going to be in that seat too, you know? And, uh, it was actually, it was actually funny because my, uh, Holly, who's, who is, uh, my ex, she, uh, and my, and a great friend, she, uh, would, uh, like it took two years in our relationship before I realized, like when I was like using my sarcasm to say like, I love you and I'm

• 59:24Speaker 01

  paying attention to you, which is how I learned it. Like in her family, like sarcasm meant, you know, I hate you and I think you're stupid, right? So like, it was like one of those things of like really like learning that are, that are languages for, for love are totally different. And I had no idea, you know, I was like in this sort of joyous place of sort of sharing the way that like my family had done it and it was just like, you know, it was hurting or, you know, I had no, you know, I had no idea. So, you know, as I've gotten older, I've recognized how like not everybody grew up in that kind of environment that they're able to be so comfortable in the, in that hot seat, you know, but and the reason I bring that up about the skydiving is like I woke up,

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  so I had a, I was only 56th to jump and I, I was

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Out here in LA and trying to be a stuntman, but I was working a temp job at Disney.

• 1:00:14Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. How long ago was this? What year?

• 1:00:16Speaker 01

  This was 1995. It was 20 years ago, exactly 20 years ago in March of 95. And, but I didn't have a SAG card, you know, I was like, you know, like not, I was, you know, like I was super fit and I was training all the time and I was, I didn't know how to do it. I didn't know what was, you know, like I didn't know, I didn't have an in, you know, and I was.

• 1:00:33Rich Roll?

  You're like the guy in line at Starbucks who's like, yeah, I'm going to be a stuntman. You're like, whatever.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, fully, fully, totally. And someday, someday I'm going to be a stuntman, you know, like, and, and it was like, I, I was at this place where, you know, I was just kind of like, I was, I was floating a little bit, you know what I mean? And I was like, I was out here and I was, I was trying to make it happen, but I didn't know the inroad, right? And, and I remember I took a guy, I was like, I went out to dinner with a bunch of people and I was like, hey, I'm, I'm going skydiving tomorrow. Who's going with me? It was a beautiful day and I hadn't been jumping in a while and some guy, his name's Jeff, who was from the office, like I kind of barely knew him, you know, and he's like, I'll go, you know, awesome. Come on,

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  I'm gonna, I'll pick you up at 8:30, right? So cut to, you know, like 8:30 the next night and I've been medevaced away and he's like alone at the drop zone waiting for his.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  No, but I'm just talking to this guy, right? So like, it just was very funny, like the guy that I invited. But so, yeah, we went out there together and, and it was back, this was at Paris and it was back when you could, and I think you still do it, but it's all computerized now, but if you bring somebody out for a tandem jump, their first tandem, you get a free skydive, right? So it was a free skydive, you know, ultimately not that free, but as soon as, back then, as soon as like their feet touched the ground on their dive, like you got a jump ticket and you could go, you know? And so I was, I thought I was done for the day. I was packing up my chute and I was like, with the last load, a sunset load was going and, and they were like, hey, you got your guys down? Like, if you want to go? And I'm like, yep, I'm,

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  I'm in. I threw my, you know, I threw my parachute over one arm and. Yeah, totally. It was like, yeah, but which is also very like sort of famous like stunt phrase was like, you know, like, we got one more, you know? And it's just like, we just got one more for safety. And then that's the one where like, the guy, you know, blows up both his knees or whatever happens. And I remember like I jumped out and I had this, I mean it was beautiful sunset like I was.

• 1:02:39Rich Roll?

  Where, what airfield did you guys?

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  It was at Paris, Paris Valley, which is, which is by Riverside.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  And, you know, I remember at a point like I, when I opened, one of my steering toggles like kind of popped out of my hand and it, and it went through the D rings that would sort of hold it, you know, like you can just, you can let go of your steering toggles and they, and, and then grab them again, but this came out of my hand with such force it, it flew out of my hand and, and passed the D ring. So there's no way I could retrieve it. But in that case, you just sort of like steer with the rear risers, you know, like it's just a little more crude, but you can do it and I'd done it before. So I wasn't really worried and, and I had a little bit of a spin like my, I don't know what was going on. My canopy was kind of a little odd, but it wasn't something I didn't think I could manage or couldn't manage. And about a thousand feet, I realized like what, I didn't have any forward glide and I was just dropping straight down and, and I was over the parking

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  lot, which was completely filled because the Golden Knights were there having their training camp and, and the runway was in front of me and, and I was too low to cross it and over here was a field and right here to one side of me, which was really above it looked like a, like a graveyard for used farm equipment that like, you know, Gerald Scarf, who was the animator for The Wall, right? Had, had designed. I mean, it was like, this is like frightening, like Tim Burton-esque, like sharp metallic graveyard that I was kind of heading for. It was like cars or, you know, like I was, and so I decided to, to, to try to get more forward glide. So I pulled really hard on my rear risers

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  and, and stalled out my canopy. So it stalled out at about 500 feet and then reinflated just before it hit the ground, but then I was in a spin. And so when I, I spin in.

• 1:04:23Rich Roll?

  So when it stalls out, what does that mean? Like it's, it kind of folds on itself and it's not catching the air?

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  Exactly. So like a, like a parachute is designed the same way that an airplane wing is. And, and when you land, like you're, you're, you know, you're falling at 10 feet per second and you're traveling forward at about 30 miles an hour. Normally, and then when you land like about 10 feet above the ground, you pull down both of your brakes and it and it changes the aspect ratio of it. And so you get, you actually get lift, creates negative airspace underneath the canopy. So it lifts up. But unlike an airplane wing, it doesn't have any thrust, right? So if you, you do it at the right time, you, you literally just take a step right out of the sky as if you were walking, because it just, you're, you're floating for that, that moment, right? But if you do it too soon, or if you, you know, do it in the air, like because there's no thrust, it stalls out. It just basically collapses on itself,

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  which is what happened. So I let go of that and then it, you know, normally if you're high enough, it'll reinflate and you're fine. But then I wasn't compensating for the spin and the spin down became really violent. And I was way outside the, you know, like it was spinning me around with the, with the parachute at the center of the circle and me like outside, like almost flat, you know, like parallel to the ground, spinning around and it just slammed me into the ground. And they, you know, like I said, probably like 70 miles an hour, right next to my own car, which is amazing, right? And, and, and it didn't, like, I didn't hit a car. I mean, if I hit a car, it would have been like I, uh, like being run over on the freeway at 70 miles an hour, right? Or if I dropped straight in and not spinning, you know, like I was able to disperse that energy.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  How much of you, I mean, 70 miles an hour, how much of that is downward force versus like the forward?

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Well, I think it was spinning, right? So it was spinning, um, and then that was across, really, really across the ground, you know, once I, because you know, like I was in this like sort of flat spin, basically, right? So like,

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  And you land on your chest?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  I landed, I, my feet hit, right? So, you know, I, I, I look at sort of the, the injuries and how it happened, right? But, but, uh, my feet must have hit first and my right knee was locked out. And so the force of that went to my femur and broke my femur. And then I fell forward and, you know, I would have been on both of my knees. But one knee was, now my femur's broken, so my one knee was kinda trailing somewhere behind me and my other knee hit the ground and so I shattered that knee. And then I was like elbows and chin and, and um, and my hair was like really long at the time, you know, and I wasn't wearing a helmet and of course now I'm knocked out.

• 1:06:49Rich Roll?

  To Utah.

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Totally. I was more than like, I was more the Bodhi. I was definitely more than a Bodhi at the time. Yeah. And um, so yeah, I was like knocked out and of, and of course, you know, there's a doctor there that was like, I mean, this is all told to me afterwards, right? Like if you, you know, like we gotta call this guy's mother because he's not gonna make it to the night, you know, like, and, and of course, you know how stuff on your head bleeds like crazy, like I'm, my hair was super blonde and it was just like covered, covered in blood, not gonna live, you know?

• 1:07:21Rich Roll?

  And that last like five, when you went into that spin, I mean, what's going through your mind? Like, are you thinking like this is it? Or I can salvage this or it's gonna be okay? Or like I'm toast?

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  You know, before it's, it's funny because I don't, I remember thinking like before I stalled out my canopy, like I was looking at that like, I had no control and I'm going towards this like spiky monster graveyard thing, right? And I remember thinking, this is gonna happen to me. Like I was like, oh my God, this is gonna happen to me. Like, and um, and then it's interesting, like in the hospital, like a friend of mine like was videotaping me while I was on the phone with a, with another buddy of mine. And uh, and I actually don't remember being scared, you know? Um, but I, but I, there's video evidence somewhere. It's on VHS, so it's probably been destroyed by now, but like,

• 1:08:11Speaker 01

  like of me on the phone telling my friend was like, yeah, I just remember being really scared, you know, and um, so maybe I, I guess I was scared. But once I stalled it out and then I reinflated, like I was spinning so fast, it just was like, you know, like such a, you know, like being in a car wash, I don't even, you know, like I don't, I don't remember anything and I, I don't really remember any pain of hitting the ground, you know? Um, and, and then I woke up. Tied to a spineboard or taped down to a spineboard in the, in the emergency room. Right. Of course, I remember being abducted by aliens, but you know, I was medevac away and there's like, you know, a light, a bright light, which is like, you know, like they're like checking

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  to see if my eyes were like, like dilated or whatever. But my first thought to go back to that like sarcasm was like, my absolute first thought when I woke up in the emergency room was, well, there went all my credibility. It was just like, like my first thought was like, now no one's gonna believe me. Like, like.

• 1:09:14Rich Roll?

  What about skydiving?

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

• 1:09:17Rich Roll?

  Like as an aspiring stunt man, you just pulled off like an epic.

• 1:09:21Speaker 01

  Right. But you know, exactly. Right. But like, you know, I wrecked a motorcycle one time and, and a buddy of mine was like, I was like, hey, he was riding beside me when it happened on the freeway and, and like, you know, traffic fully stopped and I, you know, grabbed a handful of my brake and, and actually like really stomped the back brake, which is not how I ride anymore. But like, you know, like was sliding out, fishtailing and that and wrecked the bike and it, it high sided and flipped and I got thrown like, you know, down the, the, uh, the shoulder of the road, right by the median, like, you know, a hundred feet, like just rolling down the way. And, and I asked him after, I was like, hey, man, what, how, what would you have given me for that adjustment? He was like, you mean,

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  since you ruined the bike and no cameras were rolling? Like nothing. Like you had zero stunt adjustment for that.

• 1:10:09Rich Roll?

  You were like, uh, you know, 15 years too soon because today, everybody's got a GoPro on their helmet. Skydive jump would have completely been a YouTube moment for sure.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:21Rich Roll?

  You'd be all over the internet.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Fully. This would be my podcast.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, oh yeah, I'm that guy. Totally. I'd have my own TV show. I'd have my whole deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Trampas 2.0.

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

• 1:10:36Rich Roll?

  So, so in the wake of that experience, I mean, you know, is this something as, you know, somebody who's a stunt man and has a unique kind of relationship with risk and fear, you slough it off? Or does this sort of, you know, root you in this, you know, kind of spiritual journey that propels you forward with this, you know, appreciation for the now? And like, you know, how does it, what is the impact of that experience?

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  You know, the coolest thing about it was, um, I mean, a lot of things, you know, a lot of things happened. My life was transformed in an instant. Right. So I was in a way where, you know, I went from, and at that time I was 24. I was super fit, you know, and um,

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  and then I was in a wheelchair like the next day and

• 1:11:19Rich Roll?

  So the femur, the knee, what else? What were the other injuries?

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Um, I ended up, that was, that was basically it. I had no internal injuries. I had no neck and spine injuries. I mean, I was ridiculously lucky, like astonishingly lucky. Um, I ended up, you know, the blood that was all on my head was, was five stitches on my chin. Five stitches, you know, and most people get that like chin scar when they're like four. Like I did, it took me till I was 24 to get mine, right? And uh, and, and then I like, a couple of weeks later, some of my teeth like, like I had four teeth that sort of started like cracking off that I ended up having to get ground. But that was it. Um, that was all the injury that I had.

• 1:11:57Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  I mean, really, really, really amazing. But so yeah, here I am like, and, and I think, you know, like at that point in my life,

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  I was probably pretty arrogant, you know, like I was like, and, and just

• 1:12:10Rich Roll?

  Like fueling this sort of like bulletproof.

• 1:12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully, you know, and like I was, I was, I mean, I think there was still a um, a conscious part of me, but I definitely wasn't as, was much more narcissistic. I was much more like into my deal, you know, like I, I um, my path was like, um, I mean, I was a, it was, you know, I was on this path of like awareness, but it wasn't, you know, like, I wasn't able really to sort of express love in a really huge and profound way, you know? Um, and uh, so there were things in me that weren't whole, you know? And, and that experience, uh, you know, not only, I mean, first of all, it was super humbling, you know? And then, and then years later, when I, when I did become successful as a stunt man,

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  or even had opportunities as a stunt man, um, I was so much more grateful. You know, it was just like, like it, when it happened, I just was like, oh my gosh, this is, I mean, this is enough. You know, like I, I had a big project and I was just like, wow, that's, that's magic. That's enough, you know? And, and it, where before it had been like, never enough, gotta, you know, like I gotta do this more harder. I'm not good enough or whatever.

• 1:13:20Rich Roll?

  Is it that sense of like, everything's bonus time now or not quite that?

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  Not so much. Like I didn't, you know, like, like I don't think that I like Again, like that thing of, you know, like the fire burn and that sort of like reflection on mortality, it's like, I'm not, you know, it's more about being able to sort of be aware of that moment and the possibility than spending time ruminating on what could have happened, you know what I mean? I did live and I do live. And so that's, that's where my, where I always focus. You know, and I think even in my own personality, where I'm more, like I focus on sort of the journey rather than where I didn't choose to go, you know? It's like, if I'm gonna go to, if I'm gonna travel to Ireland and live in Ireland for six months, I'm not thinking about what I'm leaving behind because obviously the adventure

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  of going there is the thing that like, it's enough to get me there, right? So like, why would I think about where I was instead of where I'm going, you know? And, and I think that that's a little bit about that too. But, but it, it definitely, I mean, one of the cool things about being in that wheelchair and in that space, and in particular when I was actually able to walk again. So I, so I, I had a, I had a rod down my femur. That's the surgery that they did on my femur. And if I'd had a weight bearing leg, I would have been able to like, walk relatively quickly and run within a month, you know, I was, it's a really pretty quick recovery if you have a weight bearing leg. But I'd also shattered that knee and it was swollen like as big as a basketball. And it, and it shattered like

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  a, like a rock hitting a windshield, right? So the back of it was still solid, but the front was just like pulverized, right? And they, and, and my femur was an open fracture that they set in the field. So often with a femur fracture, like in particular bone that's outside of your body, you don't put it back in for the risk of infection, unless you can't feel a pulse in your foot. So like, either the EMTs like, didn't know what they were doing, or they were trying to save my foot by putting that bone back in. And, and so because of that, like, operating on my knee, trying to like, piece it back together, would have risked a systemic infection, right? So they didn't do anything with my knee at all. And again, to me, they told me like,

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Uh, they didn't wanna, yeah, like, risk that infection, right? They told my dad, or my dad, a- and as you recall, he's a cowboy, who is prone to hyperbole. So, I mean, like, this just kinda comes with the territory.

• 1:15:48Rich Roll?

  The backstory of the story is...

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  Is, they told him that, like, trying to put my knee back together would be like trying to staple jello to a wall. Which, probably was true, but I have doubts...

• 1:16:01Rich Roll?

  Put that, put that jello out on, uh, you know, just out on the counter.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. Let it, let it freeze in the freezer for a little while. So, so as a result, like, I couldn't... I, I, they just put a brace on it. And, and because my knee was, like, basically liquefied, I couldn't bend it for a month and a half while it solidified again, right? And, and then, so I start, you know, like, my recovery, it was two and a half months where, before I could get out of the wheelchair, and then I was walking on crutches where I was, you know, putting all of my weight on, on the opposing arm. So, like, I would step with my left leg and put all my weight on the, on the crutch that was in my right arm and vice versa, right, opposing leg. And, and so, like, there was a period of time where if there was a tree in my vision,

• 1:16:49Speaker 01

  and I was walking towards it, it would take me five minutes to get there, right? And so, I had to see it, in a way that we don't really see in our life, you know? Like, we move too fast to actually see...

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  Right, everything slows down.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we, and, and, you know, like, we have a memory of a thing, you know? Like, when people talk about this all the time, where it's just like, we don't, you know, and a lot of that's good, you know? Like, we, we don't have the bandwidth or the capacity to, to always be, like, uh, picking up everything, you know? Like, I mean, that's how our brains work often, is to try to, you know, to diminish our experience so that we can, like, not be drooling and sitting in the corner versus, like, have more of an expansive experience, you know? Like, our brains are, like, kind of closing us down a little bit, right? But, like, when you slow down, then the bandwidth can expand, right? You don't have to, like, there's not as much, like... You know, like radically.

• 1:17:40Rich Roll?

  Competing stimuli.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so like the things that are there, you can can see, you know, and I had I had.

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  Were you consciously aware of that when it was happening?

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I was like, you know, I'd considered, you know, I'd thought of myself as an artist and somebody who was very aware. And suddenly like I realized that it, you know, like 24 years old, I was like, learning to see actually for the first time. It was really, really, really huge for me. Um, and and even, you know, like, uh, my girlfriend at the time, she came and took care of me for a couple of weeks and and that was when my teeth started falling out, you know, like they like they like flaked off, right? And and uh, my, I mean, it was just crazy. Like, I'm like, what is that? You know, oh, wow, that's my tooth falling out. And like they didn't fall out at the root, you know, they just sort of like, it was like, you know, like slate or whatever shale, you know, like just kind of like flaking off. And um,

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  we went to the dentist in in Dalhart, Texas, which is where my mom's from. And of course, it wasn't ADA compliant, right? And so my girlfriend at the time, Reagan, thank you, had to uh, carry me into the dentist office. Like she actually, because like, so this was like two weeks after I was like the the most fit and arrogant person on the planet, you know what I mean? And then I'm like, like I'm being like carried into the dentist office by my girlfriend, which even that, like those experiences were just, you know, like magic, really, you know, like that was those things that continue to to open me in that way. And then when I I I healed, or as I was healing,

• 1:19:13Speaker 01

  you know, I I went and skydived a year later at the exact same spot, like, and and and throughout that year, like people were like, well, you're never gonna you know, do that again, you know? And I'm like, well, yeah, of course I have to. And and my dad, who never wanted me to skydive, I used his like, you know, cowboy like logic against him. I was like, well, dad, you know, I gotta gotta get back on the horse, right? He's like, ah, you know, like.

• 1:19:33Rich Roll?

  I mean, the first, when you went back and did it again, was it, was there like an an extra level of trepidation? Or were you just like, no, I got, or or I mean, was part of the part of the purpose in doing that to make sure that you didn't have some kind of fear blockage?

• 1:19:49Speaker 01

  Definitely. Like, I had to do it. I mean, and I was, you know, I was immediately training again. Like, I, like, as soon as I could start training, like, I was training, right? And I was, I was, you know, I was in the gym and I was lifting weights. I was doing leg extensions and I was just like, and I hurt, it would just hurt so bad. And it turned out, actually, my leg was still broken. Like, they had left a pin in it that was actually holding my leg in traction over the rod. And so after seven months, it hadn't healed at all. And, uh, so I was like, I mean, imagine, I was in the gym. I had it like, I was in, I'd moved to my, so Reagan was living in Wilmington, North Carolina. And, and Wilmington or North Carolina is a right-to-work state. So like, all of my friends from college, um,

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  had gone there and were getting their SAG cards, like, right away. Like, and Reagan had moved there and was-

• 1:20:39Rich Roll?

  It's like Dawson's Creek is filming there. All these TV shows were there.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. It was like a little before that. It was like Matlock had just finished, but American Gothic was there. And every, like, CBS movie of the week, it was before, like, Canada had came, become the, the thing for that.

• 1:20:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was the place to go.

• 1:20:52Speaker 01

  Like Wilmington was the thing. Like, it was, it was like, it was LA, New York and Wilmington, you know? And, uh, and so we were all there. And I went, so we ended up in Wilmington, like-

• 1:21:02Rich Roll?

  So you were living, you went and actually lived in Wilmington then?

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  I did, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:05Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, um, and got my SAG card, like, in a, in a situation where, you know, I thought, again, I thought I was like, well, I was gonna be on fire or blow something up. I thought I was gonna do some, you know, like, heroically swashbuckling thing to get my SAG card. And it's like, if they had asked me to run, like, I wouldn't have been able to do it, you know? And, um, but I was, I was living there and I, and I had a, you know, access to a twenty, you know, I had a key to a gym, you know, there was no real twenty-four hour gyms at the time. And I, but I would, I would go there and I would work out all the time. And, and my leg was broken. And I was, and I was just like lifting, doing leg extensions. That's the thing. Like, I just think of the, I just think of the leverage on that broken leg that I was putting. And I was like, this is not gonna stop me.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Not gonna stop me. You know, I'm just like fighting through the pain and whatever. And, and I went and saw this doctor and he was like, oh, yeah, you either have a massive bone infection or we gotta take this one screw out. Of course, he took the screw out and, and instantly it was just like, the vice had come off my leg, you know? I was like, oh. And then it started to heal. But in that time, like, to, to go back to the, you know, like, uh, the second skydiver, or the, you know, sky, skydiving after that, um- You know, there was a lot of people with a lot of intention to love me. You know what I mean? Who were expressing their concern and hoping that I would never skydive again. And, and really like, you know, and it was all about love. But really what was happening was they were like infusing me with their fear. Right?

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  And it was, it's almost something like, you know, your sort of epic run, right? Like there was a, there was a moment, the day before I went skydiving, I, I could run a few blocks, like without being winded, you know? Like I couldn't, you know, I was trying to train and I couldn't just, you know, get there. There was just like, like I still felt broken, you know?

• 1:22:56Rich Roll?

  So part of that was informed by this desire to feel like if you could, if you could do that jump successfully, that that would make you whole.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  For sure, you know, and, and, and I went up, I went up in the plane with all, everyone's fear. You know, my mother, my grandmother, like all of these people that had to express like genuine love and concern with me. But the result was that it was putting fear in me, you know?

• 1:23:21Rich Roll?

  A fear that you didn't have prior.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  And that when I jumped out of the plane and was now, you know, 12,000 feet up in the air and in a three dimensional world, a 360 degree world and, and part of this huge thing, feeling small and feeling huge and feeling alive and near death and all that stuff. Realizing that that was not my fear, right? Like the instant I jumped out of that plane, I was like, well, none of that was mine. Like it wasn't mine at all. Like I'm this, this is me in the air, like having this like sort of unique experience of hurtling towards the ground and being fully present. Like, I'm not afraid at all. And, um, and then I jumped again, I think I did two jumps that day. And of course the second jump, like the plane ride was like a completely different experience.

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  And the jump was still really, you know, like very present in that way. And went home and ran a mile, you know? It was just like the next day I could run, you know? It was just like, it, it was the, the physical block was all fear. You know, it was all fear.

• 1:24:23Rich Roll?

  So what do you make of that in terms of like, you know, how that lesson has informed, you know, later decisions and how you live? I mean, cause that's kind of a profound realization.

• 1:24:32Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, for sure. And you know, I, I think that, that again, like there's, like, once you're in action. If you're in action and you're in action, like, you know, in alignment with your,

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  you know, like, hearts, mission, desire, journey, whatever, like, with your authentic self, there's, there is no fear, you know, i- i- it's not there. And, and, and that fear, you know, like I said before, like, it's all on the ledge, you know, there's only fear on the ledge. And once you commit to that, to an action, the fear goes away. Like, it goes away because there's no space for it, you know? And so as long as we're like,

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  you know, in action and moving forward in that way. And, and for me, like I said, following your, like, your, like, sort of biggest authentic, like, heart-opening self, then, then there, there is no space for it, you know?

• 1:25:28Rich Roll?

  Well, also recognizing that some of that fear, the fear that, that visits you on the ledge may not be your own fear, that you're, you're sort of this vessel for other people's projections onto you.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:25:39Rich Roll?

  And being able to kind of decipher the difference between, you know, what your true emotional state is and the kind of, you know, baggage that you allow to, you know, kind of penetrate your boundary and carry for other people, like, parsing that, I think, is, is tricky, you know, to try to like, understand what's yours and what's not.

• 1:25:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And I think that there's almost in a way, there's like, there's no way of knowing unless you go, right? Like, I mean, like,

• 1:26:06Rich Roll?

  That idea of action being the antidote, you know, action being the, the curative kind of solution to alleviating that fear, that's interesting.

• 1:26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, and I think that that's like, like, I, I remember when I was younger, and I think even before, like, I read The Artist's Way, like, very young, you know? And, and one of the things that Julia Cameron wrote in that book was like,

• 1:26:27Speaker 01

  you know, it's like, we're all spiritual sharks, right? When we stop swimming, like, we sink to the bottom and die. And that's, and that's a little bit of that kind of like, idea of, you know, like, moving forward in that way. Otherwise, you're just like, you sink and, and die.

• 1:26:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I talk about that book all the time.

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:26:45Rich Roll?

  I've done, I've done The Artist's Way many times.

• 1:26:47Speaker 01

  I had to, oh dude, I was just like, journals of morning days, morning days, like, like, you know,

• 1:26:52Rich Roll?

  I still have all these journals, like, I think I started, the first time I did that must have been 1998 or something like that.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:26:58Rich Roll?

  I still have some of those journals sitting around. I was like, oh my God, I should look at that. Such garbage.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  No, I know. I think I might have been in it in like, I think I was in it in like, maybe nineteen ninety four, you know, like I, and it was just like, like just tomes of these things, you know, and I, and I, and, and it's, I, I have to admit, it's been a long time since I wrote morning pages, but it would, like, I, I, uh, gosh, I can't even imagine reading some of that stuff. And a lot of it's just like, oh, like, I feel stupid today. You know, it's just like, like, I don't know, like, I've maybe like, cuff my jeans like in a different way today, you know, it's just like, but there are, are there some things in it, you know, and, and I think, like, I never, like, I was always like a visual artist or, or, you know, in my body and action in that way. So I never thought of myself as a writer, which is strange now because I'm, I'm writing screenplay and I'm kind of like trying

• 1:27:44Speaker 01

  to create some, you know, like content for myself to like, to direct and like, tell like bigger stories. Like I'm, I, I feel like I'm like, I inherited an ability to tell stories from my dad. Like my dad is a storyteller. I think the difference between my stories and his is mine are true.

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  He was gonna.

• 1:28:00Rich Roll?

  That doesn't matter. We're in Hollywood. Who cares whether they're true or not?

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  It's true, but, but, uh, my dad could tell, he tells great stories, but like, I never was a writer, you know? So when I was like, uh, writing morning pages, I was never thinking of content. You know, I wasn't creating content in any way. It was just really that, that brain dump that she talks about. You know, it was really easy for me to just dump all that stuff out. Dump, dump, dump, dump, dump.

• 1:28:26Rich Roll?

  Well, that's where you, you get the clarity so that you can later on write the screenplay. The screenplay doesn't get written in the morning pages.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:28:33Rich Roll?

  Like, the morning pages are taking out the garbage.

• 1:28:35Speaker 01

  Well, exactly. And that's, you know, like, we talked about this before the podcast a little bit, you know, like this way that I'm sort of cultivating, like, you know, a lot of the work that I'm doing now is so much different than this, you know, the, the skydiving, the kind of the things that brought me on this journey where I am. But like, like the, the kind of heart that I'm trying to create now is this emptiness, you know, this empty vessel, you know, like I do, I don't want to be half full or half empty. I want to be empty so that I can just fill it with light, like, fill it with lightness. And, and, and it's an empty heart is what I'm trying to cultivate. And that is, you know, like those morning pages are great for that because it like, it empties you in such a way that, yeah, like, You're you're able to be a vessel or a receptor for those.

• 1:29:18Rich Roll?

  You're available.

• 1:29:19Speaker 01

  The creativity, the the opportunity, you know, all it is is like expanding your bandwidth. You know, I feel like we operate in such a limited bandwidth now because of stress and and ego and and all of the things, it's all just compressing our our experience. And our experience of reality is so dictated by like, I mean, we think, oh, like, I'm fully expressing myself and I'm aware of everything that's going on, you know, but like, I, you know, like, when I talk about bandwidth, I talk, I I had a border collie who was, you know, like, my companion in L A for sixteen and a half years, you know, and and a very

• 1:29:59Speaker 01

  smart dog, you know, as people with border collies all say, smartest dogs, right? My dog was really smart.

• 1:30:06Rich Roll?

  Jack Russell's were the smartest.

• 1:30:07Speaker 01

  They're pretty smart. But, yeah, talk to a Jack Russell owner and they will tell you that. Yeah, exactly. Jack Russells are smart. Border collies are smart, really smart dogs. But anyway, this and loving, you know, like, the dog, his name was Josie Wales, and he just was like profoundly.

• 1:30:25Rich Roll?

  You call him the outlaw?

• 1:30:27Speaker 01

  I called it, well, I called him, his whole name was the outlaw, Josie Wales. I called him Joe mostly, like, he was a really, really.

• 1:30:34Rich Roll?

  That's a classic name.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  And honestly, like, that, I will tell you that that dog taught me how to love, you know, like, when I was saying earlier, like, I was unavailable in that way, like, the experience I had with with with him, opened my heart to be able to to both give and receive love and loving in such a an authentic way, a nonconditional way, a and and in that way, like, and and really, it happened, I was going to, I mentioned, I went to Ireland, right, and I was leaving for Ireland, and I was all about this journey, and I found myself. When that happened, and it was after I'd broken my legs and come back, I was healing and I found myself sort of like pursuing visual art again. I was like, well, this may

• 1:31:18Speaker 01

  be the time to not be a stuntman and maybe like go back to like the artwork that I started out with early on too. So I ended up finding my way to Ireland to study animation. And when I was leaving, I was, I mean, I was leaving a relationship, I was leaving two dogs, all of my friends. And I found myself, I found myself sort of in the role of comforting everyone around me that I was leaving, which is so weird, right? Like, people will be like, oh, we're so sorry that you're going. And I would be the one, when my story was like, no, it's really great. I'm going to do this thing and it's really awesome. And so like, I never had to like actually sort of face it, right? And then the day I was leaving,

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  I took my dog for a walk. And then he was like, okay, bro. You know, like, he couldn't, like, he couldn't take the burden of leaving from me, you know, like, it was like, I had to, like, I had to look at him and be like, oh, my God, like, I'm, I'm leaving you. And then it brought all of what I was kind of not facing that I was leaving. Like, it brought all of that up. And just by, by reflecting, you know, like, he was just sitting with me in love, you know? And I'm like, oh, my God, this is what it's like, you know what I mean? I didn't even, I never knew, you know, like, and, and that was a moment that like changed my life. So anyway, this dog, like, he's just like, was, was super magical. Why was that, why did I bring up my dog?

• 1:32:45Rich Roll?

  You were talking about, I don't know.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  This is a conversation, my friend says, she'd be like, she called me tangent man. She's, it's the same friend that turned me on to Jay Freestyle.

• 1:32:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, the tangent becomes the through line at some point. Like, I'm just letting you, like, just so you know, like, I'm, I'm like, I'm giving him a long leash.

• 1:33:06Rich Roll?

  There's no agenda today.

• 1:33:07Speaker 01

  Well, exactly. I mean, and that's kind of.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  That's a conversation with me.

• 1:33:13Rich Roll?

  Like, this is who you are, man. So.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. It's a story. I used to tell people, I used to tell people, like, there would be, like, someday I would come back to the original tangent that started it all. And it would be something like baked spaghetti. So the joke was like.

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  It was a Shaggy Dog story.

• 1:33:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, baked spaghetti. Yeah, exactly. Right.

• 1:33:30Rich Roll?

  But I do want to get to the part where, you know, kind of, I want to like sharpen the lens a little bit on, you know, the kind of the spiritual journey and how that began to take place. I mean, so, so in the wake of kind of rehabilitating your body, there must have been a moment of, you know, you're getting more into visual arts and thinking maybe, you know, stunting isn't going to happen and, or maybe, maybe you didn't think that, but you find yourself in yoga, like you start like availing yourself, making yourself more available, like physically and emotionally to kind of, you know, these spiritual principles that now seem to take, you know, kind of a prominent role in, you know, how you, you know, the principles upon which you live your life and make decisions about, you know, career and relationships and, and everything.

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. You know, and it's, it is, you know, when I was, so I started pursuing, you know, I started coming back to my visual art and I was finding myself, like I, I came back from Ireland and, and, you know, I had, I felt like I had an interesting relationship with the universe at the time where I would say, if this, then that, right? Like, like I've always been something of a manifester, like-

• 1:34:31Rich Roll?

  Making deals with-

• 1:34:32Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, like it's what I'm, like what I'm willing to accept, you know, like, deals with dog, really, like, I mean, like, like, I mean, it's not, it's not ironic that, like, like I find my love through dog, not God, right? Like, but like, yeah, it was almost what I was willing to settle for, right? Where, you know, I've always had these just like magical coincidences, like, and been aware of synchronicity, which actually reminded me why I brought up the dog. But, and it was about bandwidth, by the way, like bandwidth, you know, like, and, and, you know, we, I used to live in an apartment in Loft downtown and, and he would, in order to go out, like we would go to the elevator, right? And we'd have to go to the elevator,

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  he'd stick his nose right in the crack of the elevator door. The door would open, he'd get inside, stick his nose in the crack and it would open again. And, and every single time he stuck his nose in the crack of the door, like- The elevator would open and like without fail ever, you know, and so his as soon as he saw that crack in the elevator door, he put his nose there and and it opened, right? And so in his bandwidth of experience, like those things were connected.

• 1:35:42Rich Roll?

  That's a causal, yeah.

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so he was able to expand his bandwidth just a little bit to look up and see my hand pushing the button and actually activating that, then his whole reality would have shifted. Right. But his truth was based on on the bandwidth that he was in border college are smart. But like he was operating on a limited bandwidth in the same way too, that if I was able to expand my bandwidth enough to see that my finger really probably isn't the cause of the elevator opening either, other than, you know, like there are certain mechanisms making it happen that are a result of of pushing the button, whatever happening, but there's something bigger at work and it really is about expanding our bandwidth. But the choices that we make are while they may be fully authentic, often are based on, always are based on.

• 1:36:28Rich Roll?

  Imperfect information.

• 1:36:29Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:36:30Rich Roll?

  And, and, you know, far lacking from a full perspective on what's actually at play.

• 1:36:34Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like because of a limited bandwidth, you know?

• 1:36:37Rich Roll?

  You can really go down the rabbit hole on that and start talking about like dark energy and dark matter and, you know, like kind of particle physics and how the universe actually functions.

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Totally, totally, totally. But yeah, yeah. So, but anyway, I just wanted to revisit that. But so because I was reminded of what I, why I brought my dog up. But I, as far as like, yeah, that's sort of like how I then like started to kind of come into this awareness. You know, I, I was pursuing art and I, and, and I was getting better. The thing in Ireland like wasn't exactly working out, but it's because of the relationship I felt like I had with the universe at the time, right? Like I would say, I'm willing to, as long as. As, you know, I have access to the machines and I can do all this artwork that I want to create.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  I don't care if like the school is crap. Well, it would be like six months later, it would be exactly that. You know, like I don't care if I have a, you know, like a horrible job at feature animation, as long as I get to take advantage of the art classes and the life drawing classes that they had at lunch and afterwards. And, and, and six months later,

• 1:37:46Rich Roll?

  You have a lousy job in there.

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  I have exactly that. I'm like working, I'm doing data entry in HR and, and, and yet, and I'm taking like two hour lunch breaks and three hours after work and I'm drawing on the model like with the best, you know, artists in town. Both as collaborators and, and teachers every single day, you know? So I got exactly what I, you know, and, and it was one of those things where later I realized like, oh, wait, if I just ask for what I want, like I'm sure that there, you know, the universe like is, is, you know, the universe, whatever like, it was like, oh, I was going to give you like so much more, but if you're willing to settle for that, like then we'll just like send that energy somewhere else, you know? And, um, but it was, it was actually the deals that I was making, you know?

• 1:38:35Speaker 01

  So Ireland happened, you know, it happened to be exactly that, right?

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  Not a great school and, and I got to do that, but it wasn't enough for me and I ended up coming back. I was going to go to art center and I, then I ended up going to USC for a little while. And, and in that time is when I started really practicing, practicing yoga, um, getting on my bicycle. Um, I'd never really ridden a bike and I mean, I'd, since I was a kid till I was, I mean, I had a Schwinn stingray and then I had a, you know, had a six thirteen or whatever, you know?

• 1:39:06Rich Roll?

  I had a stingray. What color was your stingray?

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  Blue, it was blue.

• 1:39:09Rich Roll?

  A yellow one.

• 1:39:09Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:39:10Rich Roll?

  A yellow banana seed.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, mine was blue. It had the like sparkly blue banana seed for sure. And, uh, um, and in that time where I like started getting into yoga, um, started riding my bike and started rediscovering my body again, you know, I realized I was like, okay, well, I could send, I could spend, you know, like six hours, eight hours, 10 hours, 12 hours a day in a dark room, you know, drawing. Somebody jumping off a building on fire. Or I could, you know, like opt for the path of instant gratification, which was like, get lit on fire and jump off a building, you know? And that's how that kind of like, you know, that's how that evolved.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  I started doing the Waterworld Stunt Show at Universal Studios. After nine eleven, I actually like, I was, I was, I was teaching yoga and I was trying to, I thought for a while I was gonna be a firefighter. I was sort of like, you know, like, I gotta get out, I wanna be of service. I don't wanna be part of this industry, you know? So there's always like this calling to be of service, you know? And

• 1:40:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so not, and not only were you taking, you were teaching yoga, so.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  I was teaching yoga, yeah, so like I

• 1:40:23Rich Roll?

  Obviously got a foothold in you.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I'd gotten like in the, you know, in the late nineties, I had really, really developed a practice, daily practice, very intensely. Found, you know, a kind of yoga, vinyasa yoga, kind of a nonspecific vinyasa, you know, what would now be like hatha vinyasa versus, you know, ashaanga.

• 1:40:44Rich Roll?

  And where were you teaching?

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  I taught at the Center for Yoga. And then I taught, kind of in the mid two thousands, I was teaching at Liberation, which was once they, that kind of like was an offshoot of some people that had come from the Center for Yoga. But I taught in the big room at Center for Yoga. I mean, it was a really like sort of magical time, you know? Was traveling to India, you know, several times. And I mean, it was really, like, I thought I was gonna, I was gonna be a yoga teacher and

• 1:41:11Rich Roll?

  Well, you were a yoga teacher.

• 1:41:12Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I thought that that was like my, I mean,

• 1:41:14Rich Roll?

  That was gonna be your thing.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  That was it, you know, I was like, and this is really before like, you know, somebody was like, you know, you should do a DVD. It's like no, there was like no yoga DVD, like it was a novel idea to be like, do you, you know, I'm like, yeah, well, and then of course

• 1:41:27Rich Roll?

  Pre before anybody Well, it's funny, cause there's a lot of, I mean, there's a lot of yoga teachers in LA who are frustrated actors.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  Oh, totally. I mean, that's what, you know, like people, yeah, like in person, like trainers, you know, it's like that, you know, you, yeah, you start teaching yoga, you become a massage therapist, a trainer, whatever the thing that you become in order to be an actor. And, and really, you know, that

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  When, so after nine eleven, I, I, I, uh, I got a full-time job at, at Universal Studios. Like I was kinda, you know, like the, the way that that live show works is there's a roster of people. There's a couple of full-time teams and then there's like six people down the list that are like clamoring for those like top spots. Right. And, and the great thing about it is when you're full-time, you work like, I worked, my shift for full-time was Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and every other Wednesday. Right. Like that was my full-time job and I made, you know, more money than I'd been making any time before that. It allowed me to teach two classes a week and not worry about money. You know, there's a period when I was just starting to teach yoga and I was teaching like fifteen, like maybe seventeen classes a week,

• 1:42:31Speaker 01

  like something ridiculous, like all over town. Like I was teaching at Center for Yoga, I was teaching at a ballets in Glendale. I was teaching at Bodies in Motion in, in, on Balboa, you know, and, and in Encino. And it, you know, I was traveling all over town and I was thinking like I had this like, like I had attached my rent to my practice. You know, and it really like I was struggling. I was having a hard time with that. And then I, and then I got, uh, this opportunity, full-time opportunity at, at Universal Studios. I mean, I was working really hard to make that happen and ultimately it happened and, and, uh, and that allowed me to not care at all about teaching.

• 1:43:08Rich Roll?

  You could detach the yoga from the finances.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Exactly. You know, it was just like I was able to, to let that be my seva, like it was service to be able to do that, you know? And, um, and it also allowed me, you know, the great thing about that schedule was, so Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, every other Wednesday,

• 1:43:27Speaker 01

  I would have, you know, like a huge number of shows in the summertime, but if I had a job or if I wanted to take off or if I wanted to travel, like I said, there was those six people down the list that I would, used to be one of that were desperate to have my job. And so at any time I could. Pass that off. If I had an audition or a stunt opportunity that was on one of my like three or four days off a week, like I would just take that and I would do that. But if it fell over into the time that I had my, you know, work at the live show, then I would just get it covered, you know?

• 1:43:58Rich Roll?

  So what's the first big break into the real stunt world that happens for you? Like, what was the thing that occurred that allowed you to, you know, make that transition into like being, you know, the dude who's, you know, sword fighting with Johnny Depp?

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  Well, that was it, actually.

• 1:44:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 1:44:12Speaker 01

  That

• 1:44:12Rich Roll?

  Your first gig was Pirates of the Caribbean?

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. My, yeah. I mean, and, you know, I had done like, I had done some commercials. I had done some day playing on TV shows. I'd done, you know, but, but yeah, like Pirates, the first Pirates was the one that like changed, changed it for me. And, and, a buddy of mine who, you know, he was like, it was interesting because my, you know, like I was trained as an actor and I, and kind of a conservatory style training where I did a bunch of stage combat and I did all these different things and, and, and I really had this idea that actors could kind of do everything that I could do and, and, and didn't realize that my skill set was, and my, you know, sort of

• 1:44:54Speaker 01

  level of enthusiasm about it was, was different than that, right? So I sold myself very, very, very short at the time. And a buddy of mine who had,

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  his name's Mark Vanzo and he doubles Liam Neeson. He's, he's a, you know, does a lot, like,

• 1:45:10Rich Roll?

  Does a lot these days in all their Taken movies. But apparently he's done with that though, right?

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  I don't Isn't he doing a couple more or something?

• 1:45:17Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 1:45:18Speaker 01

  Like I think he's, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Mark's a great guy and, and, and has been really somebody that had, has helped me out in my career in a huge way. And, and, and he says,

• 1:45:30Speaker 01

  he asked me to come over to his house and train him to sword fight for this big audition for Pirates, which I kind of at the time didn't know anything about. And because of my energy wasn't there, you know, I was like, I was teaching. I was like, it just wasn't kind of where my head was, right?

• 1:45:43Rich Roll?

  That's interesting though, because yeah, you,

• 1:45:48Rich Roll?

  Based on what you just said, there's a, there's a change in your relationship in terms of the attachment to that career path, right?

• 1:45:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:45:54Rich Roll?

  It's almost like, yeah, I'm doing this other stuff now. I don't really need that. I don't need to be Bodie and Johnny Utah.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 1:46:00Rich Roll?

  And when you were there, then that's when it happened.

• 1:46:02Speaker 01

  No, that's exactly right. Exactly right. And so he was, he, and he had this conversation with me, which was like, hey, you know, like you, what you can do is like a thousand times more than what any of these people can do. And you need to, I mean, actors and stuff. But you need to express that and be a part of it. You've got to try to get into this audition. And so I ended up getting, you know, like getting this opportunity and, and auditioning.

• 1:46:26Rich Roll?

  When you audition as a stunt man, what do they make you do?

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  Well, that was like, I mean, often you don't, you know, like, you know, that's a way that like, when you need like tons and tons of people and you'll call out it, you know, like mostly it's like.

• 1:46:37Rich Roll?

  Cause they already know who their guys are.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know, like, but we're like all of the, all of the soldiers and pirates and sailors. And so the stunt coordinator, um, who's a astonishingly good friend of mine named George Rugi, who, uh, really took a chance on me at that point. And has, you know, over the last decade and a half, like really become a genuine, true friend and, but also like somebody who provided a lot of opportunity for me early on, you know, and, and really because, so I showed up and, and I was enthusiastic. I was laughing. I was enjoying, you know, like just fully committed to the thing of it. And, and, um, he was like, I, look, you need to come to this kind of callback, like Gore is going to be picking, you know, all time, full-time pirates.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  Like Gore Verbinski.

• 1:47:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:25Rich Roll?

  Major director.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  The very one. I mean, I mean, Mr. Verbinski.

• 1:47:29Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:47:29Speaker 01

  Um, so Gore's going to be picking these, you know, like, like pirates, like coming in, like you look as dirty as you can and whatever. And, and this is one of those moments where like, I, I always find myself in my life being like exalted and humbled, like right in the same moment, which is just so magic. Like, like the day that I got into the DGA, like. Which was a huge, huge, huge, huge, huge, huge thing for me, right? And I was, I was taking my paperwork to the office and my wallet flew out of my, I mean, we'd gone on a tech scout for this TV show that I was coordinating and I'd blown past, I, you know, as a stunt coordinator, you, you never go on the tech scout bus, right? Because you'll just get stuck there all day.

• 1:48:12Speaker 01

  And they have like 30 locations and only two of them have action. So like you take your motorcycle and you meet them at the, at the ones that are important. Well, so I'd done that and I, I was going back to the office to make sure my paperwork got in for my deal memo for the DGA and I-

• 1:48:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and for the listener, the DGA is the Directors Guild of America. It's the, it's the union for directors.

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  That's right. And that's kind of a, it's like a, you know, like a stunt coordinator path, which is, you know, you start out doing stunts and then you become a coordinator and then you second unit direct and are part of the DGA.

• 1:48:42Rich Roll?

  And second unit directing is sort of directing the stuff that the main director doesn't have time to do. Like a lot of it is-

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:48:49Rich Roll?

  Establishment shots or kind of like-

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Or action too, like huge, you know, like huge action set pieces. The director may bring in like the cast or the, you know, and then they move on to do something else. And then the big stuff with the doubles and lots of cars and all that stuff, you know, like wrecking stuff may happen on second unit.

• 1:49:03Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:49:05Speaker 01

  And which, you know, we will unpack that later, but that was a real transition too that happened.

• 1:49:09Rich Roll?

  Was that for The Bridge?

• 1:49:11Speaker 01

  It was The Bridge.

• 1:49:11Rich Roll?

  The Bridge?

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:12Rich Roll?

  It's a great show.

• 1:49:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was a really good show, wasn't it?

• 1:49:16Rich Roll?

  Did it get canceled?

• 1:49:16Speaker 01

  It did get canceled, yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:18Rich Roll?

  I enjoyed it. I watched, I watched most of it.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really, it was, it was a great show. Should be still going, but, oh well.

• 1:49:27Speaker 01

  But, yeah, so, so, you know, George had, had taken this risk on me for, for Pirates, you know, brought me into this audition with, with Gore.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Brought me in and, and, uh, there was a circle of everybody, right? And, and George had called me and said, listen, you know, I don't really know you, you know, but you're super enthusiastic and, and I just want you to look really like as ugly as you can, you know? And so like I, I mean, I had this thermal and a ratty T-shirt and some cargo pants and put bicycle grease on my head and, you know, like I was all like, I put nasty stuff on my teeth, you know, the kind of stuff they do to make your teeth, that they use in makeup stuff. And I went in there and, and of course, all these other stunt guys were like, you know, they're wearing their like, you know, like button down T-shirt with the sleeves cut off. So it looks kind of like, I mean, I looked like a bum, you know what I mean? And these guys look like, you know, like stills like showing off their arms or whatever.

• 1:50:26Speaker 01

  And, and, and Gord walks around and he's looking at all of us and, and he, and he looks at George and he goes, George, these guys are all just too buff and too good looking. And he looked at me and he was like, except you, you're, you know, like you go over here. Like, and now, and I got hired in that moment, right? Like I ended up being one of like five guys that were like the bat, full-time bad guy pirates. And I worked for, you know, five months on that movie. But it was that awesome moment where it was just like, like I'm like, he totally insulted me, but also like transformed my life and my career.

• 1:50:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  You know, like.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  And that, that gig ended up, you parlayed that into being in all three of the movies, right?

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Four, four of them.

• 1:51:06Rich Roll?

  Four of them.

• 1:51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:08Rich Roll?

  And when you're doing that, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but you know, you're kind of playing different small bit characters, right? So you're actually like a lot of different people in each one of the movies?

• 1:51:19Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure, you know, and, and, uh, in the first one, you know, there were like, like I said, we were sort of full-time pirates. So we, you know, like there were, there were guys that were sailors and soldiers and, you know, they would have to have to shave or they could shave, you know, but we had to grow our beards out and we were always like. You know, those guys were working and I would be scuba diving or hiking in a volcano or some kind of way, you know, but so like, but I was really mostly like a particular person, you know, but it's nondescript, like indie stunts, you know what I mean? So like, yeah, like the things gets blown up, we're all in that, like in the second one, when the kraken is attacking that octopus squid monster thing, you know, like we're all defending that and I may change wardrobe or I was one of the Flying Dutchman, which was all like

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  kind of digital costumes and stuff. And then that one, like, I didn't have to have a beard, so then I'd be a sailor as well, you know? So it's like, yeah, I was, I played a lot, a lot of different parts. And I really never, there may have been like every once in a while I had to double somebody, but for the most part, it was, yeah, I was the guy that was like sword fighting with Johnny or Kira or Jack Davenport or some, you know, any of these other Orlando, any of the other actors, you know, like I would be in kind of a hot spot with those guys.

• 1:52:28Rich Roll?

  Right. That's amazing. And so, so you're in all four of these movies and then you go on and you do Leatherheads, Resident Evil, Indiana Jones, National Treasure, Alias, like you become like you're working all the time. If you go to your IMDb page, it looks like you've been in the movie business for 50 years.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  [laughing]

• 1:52:45Rich Roll?

  There's like so many credits.

• 1:52:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty.

• 1:52:47Rich Roll?

  Which is cool, you know, like you, how you made all of that happen. So, you know, I'm interested in, in, in kind of what that subculture, you know, the subculture world of stuntmen is like, like we all, you know, are aware of it on some level, but like, I'm sure the reality of it is very different than what we imagine, you know? So like, what are, what are some misconceptions about like, you know, what you guys do that, that people might be surprised to hear about?

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's funny, I, I will say like, there is a funny thing that like, I, I was working on, we were working on National Treasure and, and we were in Philadelphia and a group of us gone to New York. And spent a couple of days there and we ended up getting called back like we had to, you know, run, drive all night and get back like early in the morning for, for a particular scene, for a particular scene and, and um, um, it was the World Series was going on, right? So these two girls that are friends of mine that were already at the bar and, and I was coming and meeting there and then we were gonna drive back together. So I show up and this guy comes up to me. He was like, "Oh, man," you know, like shaved head like mine at the time. And he's like, "Man, you're a stunt guy?" Like, you know, like Lisa and Heidi were already talking about you.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  And, you know, like, he was like, this guy was like, "You must get laid all the time." Right? Like, that was his deal. And I was like, he goes, "'Cause I tell people," 'cause this is his thing. He was like, "I tell people I'm Vin Diesel stunt double." And it is just like, the best thing, right? Like, and- It's like bar conversation. Totally, you know? And, and, and he's like, "And it, oh, it just works for me all the time." Like, "Well, you must be as a stunt guy." And the funny thing about stunt people is that like,

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  because you know that like, as soon as you say you're a stunt person, somebody's gonna say like, "What's the most dangerous thing you ever did?" Right. Which I'm waiting to ask you. "What's the craziest stunt you ever did?" Um, "What's, uh, uh, is Johnny Depp cool?" "Is, is, is, you know, who's the biggest jerk you worked with?" Or whatever, you know? So like, so stunt people actually like, put that off for the longest time. Be like, "Oh, hey, what are you doing?" Like, "Uh, you know, I'm kinda working in the film business." You know, like, and they'll be like, "Oh, really? What do you do?" And you'll be like, "Well, you know, you know, I'm front of the camera a lot of times, you know, whatever. I'm a, I'm a stunt guy." You know, "Why? You're a stunt guy?" You know, and then they like freak out and it becomes that, right? So it's, so it's actually like, there's an energy about stunt people that like,

• 1:55:01Speaker 01

  it's not attractive at all, you know, because we're trying to like, often downplay. I mean, there's, uh, obviously there's a lot of ego involved and some, you know, the people, some people are like, "I'm a stunt person and that." But like, if you really often wanna have a genuine conversation that's not just about like what you do in the movies, like, we'll downplay it. And, and I find that that is like, you know, I think there's a conception that everyone's just like, "Oh, yeah, these guys are like, super macho and whatever." But they're really like- Sometimes we really downplay that in a way that like makes us unattractive, you know?

• 1:55:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get that. I get that. And I would think that, you know, it's changed a lot. Like, it's not Steve McQueen and Bullet where, you know, you guys are, you know, driving through the streets of San Francisco as much as it is. I mean, not that that kind of stuff isn't still part of that world, but, you know, so much of it has been sort of transplanted with green screen work.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:55:50Rich Roll?

  Wearing those suits with the little, you know, sensors all over them and doing all of that kind of stuff. That's a, you know, kind of just part and parcel of the modern age of filmmaking.

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  But I think that's really cool because we were able to like, you know, there was, you know, when all that was coming on, you know, everyone's afraid that like, you know, oh, like we're never gonna like, this is gonna take all our jobs and everything's gonna become digital. And in some ways, like, I mean, you do see digital doubles often, but like, many times it's like, a stunt person goes into something that becomes digital, or they can extend a fall.

• 1:56:23Rich Roll?

  Like the background. Like I just saw Everest, right?

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:27Rich Roll?

  Have you seen that movie?

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  I haven't seen it yet.

• 1:56:28Rich Roll?

  So, you know, they're climbing and, you know, you could tell that, I mean, it's incredibly realistic, but also, you know, part of the background, you know, it's like, when they're, the perspective of being on the mountain and seeing the view off of that, I'm like, well, that's gotta be computer generated because they're not actually on Everest. You know what I mean? So.

• 1:56:48Speaker 01

  They're probably not even on a mountain. I mean, there's probably like 20 by 20 feet of styrofoam that they're on, you know?

• 1:56:52Rich Roll?

  Right, right. So, so, you know, the stunt person doing what they do, but just sort of, you know, the graphic aspect of like, you know, painting out the background or some other aspect of it, but still, you know, taking that risk.

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, and you can, you know, you can, I mean, there's wire removal. I mean, the thing that I did on Birdman, you know, I was on a cable. Like, I jumped, you know, I was.

• 1:57:13Rich Roll?

  So I know that scene. I mean, it's like, it's like, you know, arguably one of the most important scenes in the whole movie. I mean, he's, he's up on that thing. He's up on the top of that. I mean, were you actually on top of that building in, in the theater district?

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 1:57:28Rich Roll?

  Or was that on a soundstage?

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  No, no, no. We were on that building. Yeah, for sure.

• 1:57:31Rich Roll?

  And it really was like atop that theater? Like, I know that street.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Uh, no, you know, it was actually, it was a school that was, um. On like Forty Third, between Eighth and Ninth, it was just a little bit-

• 1:57:42Rich Roll?

  But that's the same neighborhood.

• 1:57:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally. In fact, it's, you know, like, he walks out. I mean, the geography of that movie's a little interesting, because it's like-

• 1:57:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, if you know that neighborhood-

• 1:57:50Speaker 01

  If you think about it, like, that theater should be, like, on a different corner, or something like that, and then he walks, you know-

• 1:57:55Rich Roll?

  Like, when he gets locked out of the back, and he has to go around the block-

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  Right, it's like-

• 1:57:58Rich Roll?

  On the front-

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Exactly, because-

• 1:57:59Rich Roll?

  Doesn't quite make sense.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  It doesn't, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when he walks away, he walks, you know, like, where we were was west of actually where that theater was, you know, and it's- It's just kind of hard to tell where it is. But yeah, that was on Forty Third, between, like, you know, Eighth and Ninth, um, and it was-

• 1:58:13Rich Roll?

  And it looked like about, I don't know, ten or twelve stories up?

• 1:58:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, ten stories.

• 1:58:17Rich Roll?

  Right. And so, he takes the leap, but you're the one making the leap. What is that like? What are the, what's the technical aspects of, of pulling that stunt off?

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  Well, the cool thing about that-

• 1:58:28Rich Roll?

  Is that wires?

• 1:58:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a wire, I had a line on me. Um, and really, because the, um, you know, if you remember the shot, the Technocrane kind of follows me off, and then I fall out of the bottom of the frame- But the camera dips down, so you see people, and cars, and things on the street, and then, and then what it was, a digital double, kind of comes out and hits the tree, and kind of goes around, and then- And then it goes back around to the, behind that church, and then, uh, then Michael's composited into the rest of it, and, and that was stuff that we shot at Montreal, where we- Put, had him on a green screen, and, and, um, they had shot those plates in Manhattan, you know, and then we just projected them, and, and he flew around in that way.

• 1:59:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  Um, but the cool thing is, is that is a, that is an old, you know, Hollywood trick, right? It's a cowboy switch, right? But it's, but it's a sort of modern take on the cowboy switch, right? So, um, and there's, the edit happens in the, in the whip, like, in the blur. So, if you notice, like, when the guy, the guy says, like, "Do you know where you need to go, or do you have someplace to go?", and he's like, "Yeah, I know where to go." And, and Michael runs off, and he exits frame, and the, and the camera holds just a second on that guy on the roof, and then whips, and, and it catches me, and then I go off, so-

• 1:59:44Rich Roll?

  Well, the whole movie is cut on the whips.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  Exactly, the cut on the whip, or in the-

• 1:59:47Rich Roll?

  Like, one shot-

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:59:48Rich Roll?

  One-shot film.

• 1:59:49Speaker 01

  Dark, you know, like when they go through like the stairway or into the bar, there's like at least a frame of darkness and they're able to cut in those moments as well. But yeah, so it's like, so with Michael on the roof, like he just ran towards the edge and it whipped and followed him. And then we did that a number of times and then set up the stunt.

• 2:00:05Rich Roll?

  He just pulls up before.

• 2:00:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:00:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  And then I just, so then I start with the camera and it whips with me and I jump off and then they match it in the blur, which I just think is so cool.

• 2:00:16Rich Roll?

  And you have some kind of like harness on you, so you jump off and then it just catches you.

• 2:00:19Speaker 01

  That's right. So it decelerated me, um, probably about 40 feet down. So, um, I was attached to a crane, um, and then, uh, and you know, I started at the back of the roof, so they had to take in the slack as I ran across it. So the, so the line's getting shorter as I'm coming towards the ledge, towards the crane.

• 2:00:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  And then jump off and then it pays out and then gets into like a belay device that slows me down so that the shock of that, of that stop at the end.

• 2:00:48Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 2:00:48Speaker 01

  You know, doesn't like.

• 2:00:49Rich Roll?

  Right. How many times do you have to do that?

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  I think I did it about eight times.

• 2:00:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there had to be this crowd down on the street.

• 2:00:55Speaker 01

  Well, the, yeah, it was pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there was, and, and also like again, there were backgrounds sort of moving down there too. But yeah, there was a good crowd. And then also the people across in the, in the buildings across, like we're, we're home, you know what I mean? So like they're like, I was gonna need to see them. There's like a little, you know, like a couple of little kids like standing on their balcony, just like minds blown, you know?

• 2:01:16Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's a really special movie. Was there a sense when you were working on that, like this is, this is like, this is something unique and, and, and really different?

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  You know, I don't know. Certainly unique and different.

• 2:01:27Rich Roll?

  In Aratu, I mean, come on.

• 2:01:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it was challenging. Like the, the, the, the production schedule was very short. Um, I mean, they were doing, you know, the takes were so long. And so it would be like, you know, you would have like maybe two setups a day, two or three where.

• 2:01:42Rich Roll?

  The setup has to take forever when you're shooting this super long takes with all the moving parts.

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  And with no editing, right? So that, so that there's nothing to cut away to. I mean, you know, like most filmmakers now could shoot just a bunch of garbage and like, you can cut away, like you can cut away to anything. If you like shotgun the coverage, right? So, you know, what would happen is they would, they would have stand ins and, and, um, do all of the camera movement and stuff like that. And they would do that over and over and over and over until they got it right. Then they would bring, you know, if it was a scene with Michael, for example, out on the roof, they would bring Michael out. They would do that a number of times and then some kind of inspiration would happen in the middle of that and then so that would change everything, right? So it's like, so then you would have to take, you know, do more takes, but like everything had to be perfect. Like, like.

• 2:02:25Rich Roll?

  Zero room for error.

• 2:02:26Speaker 01

  If something was not right in the, the take, it had to go again.

• 2:02:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because you wouldn't be able to assemble the movie.

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  No, exactly, because there's, again, you can't cut away. There's nothing to cut away to. So, so I think that kind of, you know, there was some pressure and, and, and trying to, to do a lot and, and. And so it did feel, I mean, we were all working very hard. Um, I don't know that, um. Like, I think I was very, very excited much before I saw the film, like, that it was going to be really, really good.

• 2:02:58Speaker 01

  But I'm not as sure if I was excited, like, when we were working on it, you know what I mean? But I, I will say, like, I've had some, like, I mean, I've had some magical experiences on movies and I've had some really, really, really, like, horribly, horrible experiences on movies. And this was not, you know, like, it wasn't a hard time, you know what I mean? And, and as I mentioned before, like, one of those takes.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  I jumped off a building and a dragonfly landed on my arm in midair and, and, and that's magic, you know, like, and so that kind of, like, then, you know, so I, I lowered down, so, you know, I jumped off the building, dragonfly lands on my arm, I watch it flying at me, I'm hanging in the air, and then they lower me to the ground, um, everybody on the ground freaks out and, um, just taking pictures and stuff like that. I, I end up, I'm like, I gotta show these guys. I mean, like, Michael and, and Alejandro and Chivo and, and everybody's up on the roof. And I'm like, they, they'll never believe this. I gotta go up and, and to get back up to the, to the, uh, to the roof, like, I, I would go up in a, uh, there was a building next door. I went seven floors up in an elevator, across a hallway, up a stairwell, across the roof, and we built a platform that was, like,

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  that building was still smaller than, than the school I was jumping off of. So we built a platform to get up there and it, so it was kind of a journey to get to the roof and the dragonfly stayed on my arm the whole time. And then once I got back and I was like, hey, look what happened, like, when I went over that ledge, like, production shut down, you know what I mean? Like, like, I, I mean.

• 2:04:26Rich Roll?

  Wait, it was still, after you went back in the building, he's still hanging out on your arm?

• 2:04:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:31Rich Roll?

  Okay, so, and then you go up and you see Alejandro and is it still on you at that point?

• 2:04:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it stayed there and then, um.

• 2:04:39Speaker 01

  And then, uh, you know, I meanwhile, I'm getting hooked back up to do it again. Well, well, I have video of of Michael filming Alejandro filming the dragonfly on my arm. Right? Like, and, and the, you know, the EPK guys, the behind the scene guys are like, they're filming it like Chivo's freaking out like everybody is like, like.

• 2:04:58Rich Roll?

  So have you showed, have you showed Michael Keaton and Alejandro in a tattoo?

• 2:05:02Speaker 01

  I haven't seen, uh, Alejandro hasn't seen it, but, uh, uh, Michael's seen it. Yeah.

• 2:05:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, you know, it was a funny thing too. Like I, uh, before I went to, before I went to Italy, um, um, and Michael and I've stayed in contact pretty well. Like he's, he was really like, um, he's such a super cool guy, really, really great guy. I think great actor. And I thought he was just astonishing in that movie.

• 2:05:25Rich Roll?

  Uh, yeah, it was revelatory performance.

• 2:05:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I thought he was astonishing and, and, um, and he's been really, you know, just, we've stayed in contact and every, you know, of course, all these awards and all these things are happening and, and, you know, like it's been really good for us to, to stay in contact. Well, one, um, uh,

• 2:05:46Speaker 01

  I was at a Lyle Lovett concert. Lyle Lovett was in the bridge, you know, and, and, and, and Lyle, you know, it's like.

• 2:05:51Rich Roll?

  Haunting character performance.

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  I know, right? Exactly.

• 2:05:54Rich Roll?

  That's so weird.

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And Lyle, you know, it's funny, when I broke my legs, uh, I was in North Carolina. I was working as a stand-in. I, you know, like I was kind of healing in that way. And I ended up working on a film with Lyle. And, uh, and, and hitting it off, you know, we're both from cattle ranches in Texas and that kind of way. And, and when we became like sort of friends for a minute and, and, you know, Lyle bought me dinner this one night. Me and my girlfriend and a couple of other people went out to dinner with Lyle. And it was one of those moments where like I felt lost after I'd broken my legs and yet somehow magically my all time favorite musician and Lyle was at that time, like bought me dinner, you know? So I was kind of like, well, something still, I don't know what the path is, but like, there's no reason.

• 2:06:38Rich Roll?

  It's a little like, don't worry, it's gonna be all right.

• 2:06:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And cut to, you know, cut to 20 years later, um, I'm stunt coordinating the bridge and.

• 2:06:48Speaker 01

  And second, you're directing some and and Lyle's an actor in that bridge and we're like, you know, after years of seeing him in concert and thinking like, oh, I should reconnect and then thinking like, well, what's he gonna do like? Be like, oh, yeah, I don't remember you. Have a beer. See you later. If I go backstage or some kind of thing like that, you know, like, and being like, I wish I'd met him like when I was at the top of my career, you know, and and sure enough, when I was at the top of my career, I was reintroduced to him and we became friends, you know, and it's really, and so I went to a concert, one of his concerts in Thousand Oaks and went backstage and Michael Keaton was backstage at the Lyle Lovett concert and and he's like, oh, my God, Travis, he says, tell the dragonfly story. And and so Michael tells the story from like,

• 2:07:31Speaker 01

  from me jumping off the roof and then I take over from me like over the precipice and the dragonfly and then coming back to the roof, right? So I like, tag teamed that story with Michael Keaton backstage at the Lyle Lovett concert. Like, isn't that just crazy? Like, just, you know, and and yeah, like, those are the and that's, like, those are the kinds of things that, like, I say crazy, meaning like, I mean, it's the thing that happens in my life and it's just magic, but it's so awesome, you know?

• 2:07:58Rich Roll?

  What do you think that relationship is between, you know, the synchronicities? Or, you know, I think I think synchronicities exist for everybody, you know, not, those are very obvious examples.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:08:10Rich Roll?

  They happen in a more granular way, like on a daily basis.

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:08:13Rich Roll?

  But I think it's it's about your relationship to them and your awareness of them, right? And I think the more that you can root yourself in the present and and be in that place of like, surrender that we were talking about earlier.

• 2:08:24Speaker 01

  And emptiness, you know that.

• 2:08:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that emptiness place of of, you know, where you can detach from expectations.

• 2:08:32Rich Roll?

  You know, as imperfectly because we're human beings as we can, that's that almost creates that kind of like, you know, fertilized plot for something like that to occur.

• 2:08:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I think that, you know, like, like, it's a lot about intending, having an intention and not an expectation, right? And so like, if you have a,

• 2:08:51Speaker 01

  Like that, I think there's, you know, like, everybody has this expectation and leads to these goals and they're pursuing that and they're looking at that. And, and that to me like shuts, it's again about bandwidth, you know, like your expectation diminishes your bandwidth because you have a single focus, you know? I mean, the reason that like, I feel like I was, I watched this dragonfly land on my arm is because, I mean, that's a kind of a synchronicity that like, it's just too magic, you know, like, but, but because I was on a cable, because I was like, you know, like, because I set up these wire gags, like, I, I know it's safe. Um, my intention is to, to just like, with my heart as wide open as it can, like, jump into

• 2:09:32Speaker 01

  the air and, and, and like, I'll think of like smashing my head in the, in the concrete, you know, or like planting it, I don't think of the, the graphicness of that, but it's just like, you know, I'm intending to touch it, you know? And it stops me, right? But there's no fear and there's nothing diminishing my bandwidth. So as a result, like my, my consciousness expanded, my heart is wide open and in that space, like I'm open for those things, one, to enter and also to be aware of it, you know? And, um, and, and also I think I, I started flexing that muscle, like it's a muscle, like, when you see it and it starts to happen and you start to know what's gonna happen and, and

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  I, I operate in a way that that kind of synchronicity is gonna happen to me all the time. And, and as a result it does. And I think that it, um, as you say, I fully agree that it happens to everyone. It's happening all the time. You know, I'm writing this story, um, this screenplay that I'm writing about, um, which is kind of, you know, my penance, like, it's sort of my like heart opening story, but it really is a, um, um, you know, it's a story of a medicine journey and this guy goes down to Peru and he's had some, some experiences there. And, and in the beginning of it, his bandwidth is just so diminished. Like what I wanna show is this idea that, that like this guy's walking in this well

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  of providence and, and, and, and opportunity and it's not because it's not happening that he doesn't see it, it's because his bandwidth is, is diminished, right? And so, you know, very early on, as you introduced this guy, like he's had a dream and he dreams of this shaman and we see his face very clearly and, and then the guy like, you know, like as bad luck would have it, like- Horrible things can happen to him. He locks himself out. He takes his dog out. He doesn't have a poop bag. You know what I mean? And like, like, um, so, you know, all these, this sort of pile of just like things, things, things, things, things, you know, and, and jangly things that are holding him down. And, you know, as you do sometimes in the city, when you don't have a poop bag for your dog, you grab the, uh,

• 2:11:36Speaker 01

  you know, you go to the trash bin and you grab a piece of newspaper or cardboard off the street and he happens to grab a,

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  you know, like a Village Voice type paper or LA Weekly that has an article about ayahuasca. That's a painting that's almost identical to the guy that he sees. And, and he picks up his dog's poop with that, you know what I mean? And then throws it back in and, and we see that it's the same guy, but he never makes the connection because he's just like, the, you know, the bandwidth isn't there. And so it's just the idea that it's happening. Like if he, again, like-

• 2:12:03Rich Roll?

  His perception is not attuned.

• 2:12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. If he'd looked, you know, if he'd even looked at it, he would have had to stop because it's who he's just seen, you know? And instead, the result is he piles shit on it, you know? And that's what, that's what happens, you know?

• 2:12:21Rich Roll?

  That's what we do. Yeah. That's, I mean, this is the theme is starting to, I'm starting to see it more clearly. My bandwidth is expanding. Travis Thompson life story. But, uh, yeah, it's this-

• 2:12:34Speaker 01

  It's a river.

• 2:12:35Rich Roll?

  No, the recurring theme in your life is a constant, um, uh, and deliberate, you know, conscious, uh, effort to continually kind of expand and remove those blinders to broaden your bandwidth and your perspective. From the cattle ranch to, you know, to being vegan to, you know, the skydiving jump and like this journey that you're on that, you know, I want to get into the plant medicine and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, that's pretty interesting. I had an, I had an experience last night that like pushed me right up against that and, you know, kind of a little bit of a way, which was- I'd just gotten back from Las Vegas. I had, I did like a speaking thing at Life is Beautiful, which was great and was cool, but I had like,

• 2:13:19Rich Roll?

  you know, I had to get the next week's podcast up. So I sorted it out. So I was gonna ride my bike in the morning and then I was gonna spend the afternoon. I gotta record all the intros and get it to Tyler, my son, who produces it for me. And then I would spend the evening like writing the blog post and I just mapped it all out and cleared it with everybody. And then Julie is like, oh, it's the, it's the, it's the blood moon eclipse. We gotta do, we gotta do this meditation tonight. Like, that's not on my schedule. Like, no, this is more important. Like, you need to do that. So we did like a little bit of a family ceremony and, you know, talked about intention and we did like an hour and a half meditation, like out on the deck as this, as the moon rose up. And, you know,

• 2:14:02Rich Roll?

  usually I can get into, not a state of no-mindedness, because that's very difficult, but I can kind of approach that. But my mind was like going crazy. Like, ah, this is like not a, I'm gonna be up super late now and I wanted to go to bed early. And it's like, my spiritual priorities were, were upside down. Like, I was not, my, you know, I wasn't able, I, my bandwidth was not expanded enough to understand, like, no, this is actually more important. And if I focus on this, the other stuff will take care of itself in this weird, bizarre spiritual equation. I, I recognize it in retrospect, but I battle with that and it's a challenge and it's difficult for me in the moment when I'm like, no, you don't understand. I have this work thing I have to get done and that's what's important. And sometimes Julie has to say, no, actually,

• 2:14:45Rich Roll?

  you have it upside down.

• 2:14:46Speaker 01

  And it is that. I mean, it's like, it's that kind of thing of like, yeah, like, providence will happen, right? I mean, and that's a, that's a word that I don't, like, I've just started using providence, you know, like it's, and, and to, to, to, to discuss that because it is like, if our hands are open, you know, and again, like, heart is empty. Like, if it's, if we're open in that way, like, everything's gonna come in. And the way that we open them, i- it's like getting rid of that expectation, right? Like, you have an expectation, a deadline and those things that are like, sort of like, you know, like, closing down. And then it is that, you know, having to, allowing yourself to be able to like, all right, this is actually, not only is

• 2:15:30Speaker 01

  it gonna like, is it something I need to be doing, you know, like, but it's gonna help me. Do this other thing better and the opportunity to do it is gonna like flow into it.

• 2:15:39Rich Roll?

  If you wanna have a quantum leap, you know, then it's about engaging that because you know, I get stuck in like, look, nothing's gonna work unless I stick my nose in that crack and make the elevator door open because I'm the only one who's making it open.

• 2:15:53Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 2:15:54Rich Roll?

  Don't you see?

• 2:15:54Speaker 01

  No, totally.

• 2:15:55Rich Roll?

  I mean, so.

• 2:15:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. You know. We get it. We all get it. And that's the thing. Like, and even when I tell that story, like, I know that, that as much as I feel like I've continued to work and expand that bandwidth and that I have this sort of awareness of these, these other things, like, you know, a friend of mine was, she gave me a reading, she's a very perceptive person, and she, she was like, yeah, you know, there's all this stuff going and there's these just little, like, jangly things that are there, you know, these jangly things. And then I'm, you know, like, I wanna be working on those things, you know, like, you know, like, before my bandwidth was like beginning to expand, like, you know, when it's contracted, like, the jangly things don't matter. But then when you like, start to open up and you transform your life and,

• 2:16:40Speaker 01

  you know, I remember Julie like talking, describing you having heaviness, right? And she like, talk about that way, like, you know, this sort of heaviness and this burden on you, heaviness, like a, and it's that, like, when you have that heaviness, the, the, I mean, you know, she doesn't describe you that way anymore, clearly, like that.

• 2:16:57Rich Roll?

  At times.

• 2:16:58Speaker 01

  You know, but before, like, when, you know, before the real transformation that is maybe who you are now, you know, that heaviness, the little jangly things don't matter, you know, and then like, as, as the sort of bandwidth increases, those things like, then they become even more pronounced, right? So like, the more balanced that you become, the little things are the ones that like.

• 2:17:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's why I say the road gets narrower.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:17:21Rich Roll?

  There's all these other little like things that didn't seem like a big deal before suddenly become like sort of incompatible with this life that you're trying to live.

• 2:17:28Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:17:29Rich Roll?

  And that can become annoying.

• 2:17:30Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 2:17:31Rich Roll?

  Again, I gotta, I can't do this either.

• 2:17:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, no, exactly.

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  Like I've never been faced more with my own judgment than I have been in the last year, six months, you know what I mean? And I never-

• 2:17:50Rich Roll?

  Judgment of others or of self?

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  Both, both. But others for sure. I mean, and you know, look, my, you know, like my parents are, um, you know, we're spiritually very different, we're politically very different, we're, you know, our lifestyles are very different in a lot of ways. And so like, you know, and the people that they're around and, and, and obviously there's a, there's a whole political group that's, that's different or, you know, it's like, you, you, you know, when you're on opposite sides of that, it finds, the, the judgment comes in, you know, and you find, you think, oh, you know, like, you're seeing a different kind of reality rather than like judging harshly the way a particular person is, you know, it's just, God, no, it's just me discerning a, a different way or a better way to, to live. But really it's me like judging their behavior, you know? And, and ultimately like that, that

• 2:18:35Speaker 01

  judgment isn't about how they can change. Like I'm not going to change them. That's just me being like, okay, two people in a room, like I have judgment, like, like, you know, whatever, they're acting the fool, or they're being who they are.

• 2:18:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:18:47Speaker 01

  I have judgment. Like what's going to change? What, what could I possibly change in that scenario?

• 2:18:51Rich Roll?

  Your reaction.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  My judgment, you know, like only that. And, and, um, but I've never been so aware of it, you know, as I am right now. And, and I see almost every opportunity as, as an opportunity for me to face and work on that judgment. Um, and, and again, that's the, it's the medicine. It's been that kind of like, um, that's what's brought me that awareness, where I've had experiences in ceremony where I was judging, you know, in a particular way or, and then, and then brought that out. Like, and so now, you know, now I kind of, I'm able to see like, like, um- My life as it's sort of an extended ceremony in a way, you know, like it's always like

• 2:19:36Speaker 01

  everything for me is an opportunity to to work on those things, you know? And and and again, like when I was heavier, when I had sort of layers of of lack of awareness or my bandwidth was more diminished, that judgment wasn't such a big deal, you know? But now I'm like, oh, wow, this is the thing that is

• 2:19:55Rich Roll?

  That's the thing that's that's

• 2:19:55Speaker 01

  That is the obstacle, you know? This is the obstacle that keeps coming up and it's the thing that I need to. But, you know, it's a fine line because like, you know, I'm I'm moving into a path where I'm becoming a director, you know, like as a stunt coordinator, even as a stunt person, like I'm always making informed decisions, I'm making discernments, I have a particular like aesthetic that I want to like sort of create and and express and and and those are all that's that's maybe more of a positive aspect of judgment.

• 2:20:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:24Speaker 01

  But it's still judgment, you know?

• 2:20:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, there's constructive, you know, judgment in the form of discernment.

• 2:20:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:20:31Rich Roll?

  And making, you know, appropriate decisions, you know, based on how you're evaluating, you know, other people's behavior and situations and all of that versus just, uh, guy's an idiot.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  Right, but when ego, when your ego blocks, when ego blocks the ability to know the difference, right? Like when I'm like, I think I'm discerning and yet I'm judging, you know, like the like and and so like as they

• 2:20:54Rich Roll?

  You have to be dialed in spiritually to be able to know that, to be able to make that discernment.

• 2:20:57Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 2:20:59Rich Roll?

  When is the ego really dictating that?

• 2:21:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:21:01Rich Roll?

  That decision making.

• 2:21:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:21:02Rich Roll?

  Right, interesting.

• 2:21:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then so that's what I'm really, that's really the work that I'm doing.

• 2:21:07Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, look, you're one of, you know, several people that I know that that that appear to have benefited in a in a rather positive way from these ayahuasca experiences. So I've talked about this before on the podcast, but, you know, uh, I've had a number of people come up to me and say, you know, you should check it out and it changed my life or and I know people whose lives are better as a result of doing it. Uh, I just was in Vancouver like two weeks ago. And I interviewed this guy, uh, his name is Dr. Gabor Maté.

• 2:21:42Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 2:21:43Rich Roll?

  He's like, yeah, world renowned, you know, doctor who has all these amazing, uh, you know, sort of ideas and philosophies surrounding addiction.

• 2:21:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:21:53Rich Roll?

  We had this amazing conversation and then in the wake of it, as I was sort of walking him out of the hotel, because we didn't talk about it on the podcast, he said, you know, didn't come up when we were talking about it, but you know, I've had a lot of success with ayahuasca with addiction patients and you know, something maybe you should look into.

• 2:22:13Rich Roll?

  I said, yeah, you're not the first person to say that to me, um, but I have a lot of trepidation around it because as somebody who, you know, is an alcoholic suffers from the disease of addiction, you tell somebody who is an addict or an alcoholic that the solution to their problem or, or a salve to it is to take a mind altering substance.

• 2:22:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:22:35Rich Roll?

  That's a very intoxicating concept in its own right.

• 2:22:37Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:22:38Rich Roll?

  And that terrifies me, first of all. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is, and this is, this was kind of Julie's insight into it. I'm interested in your perspective, uh, which is that when you, when you sort of undertake this, this journey with this medicine, you are like, if you want to go down the spiritual rabbit hole and the whole thing, like you're opening yourself up to all kinds of energies, right?

• 2:23:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:23:01Rich Roll?

  So, you know, I, I don't believe that everything is, you know, rain, rainbows and unicorns. There's like dark energy out there.

• 2:23:09Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:23:10Rich Roll?

  There's like gnarly shit. You know, I was just in Las Vegas. I can feel it. You know, it's like, I can't be there more than like a day before I'm like, I have to leave. I have to be out of this energy field. So the idea of opening yourself up and being so vulnerable and becoming like you said, you're working towards becoming this empty container, this vessel. Well, to be in that place of being that, that vessel that's on the receiving end of something that you don't have control over is also something I think that, that causes me to pause.

• 2:23:39Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I, I think that, and, and I think that those, that's really like, I mean, it's a smart way to be, you know what I mean? It really, um, uh,

• 2:23:50Speaker 01

  Those thoughts about it and sort of thinking of it as like sort of a, oh, here's a magic pill, you know? And yeah, there is opportunity to really maybe damage yourself, you know? I think though, I mean, a couple of things about, you know, the medicine, I always say the medicine, like every, you know, like our la medicina, like people, you know, like don't want to, you know, no one's referring it to as a drug, it's a medicine. And it really is a medicine in a way that none of the medicine that we take in our country is actually medicine.

• 2:24:25Rich Roll?

  Right. But it is a drug. I mean, it's a powerful drug.

• 2:24:28Speaker 01

  Well, for sure. But it's actually something that like is already present in our body. You know, it's something that we're, you know, like you take this, you know, the way that the tea is made is there's a plant that has DMT, which is contained in our body. And then another plant that allows that to metabolize and get into your body. And so you have this sort of like protracted experience, you know? And, but it only is activating this thing that's already in you, you know? So it's not like a foreign chemical that you're introducing to your body. You know, there's no poison, there's no toxic dose. It's not something that, that actually like the brew that is ayahuasca and that you'll

• 2:25:12Speaker 01

  hear, you know, oh, this person died or this person, this thing happened to that. Like it will, it cannot hurt you, you know? And like, you know, like people that are taking like MAO inhibitors or some kinds of like, there's medications that might be a contraindication. Like ironically, there are antidepressants and these, these kind of like numbing devices that we use in our country to fix things that really like you need to, one would need to get off to, get off of in order to like experience it without risk. But otherwise, I mean, it's, it's a safe experience, right?

• 2:25:49Speaker 01

  The medicine itself, the sort of physical reaction.

• 2:25:52Rich Roll?

  Physical aspect.

• 2:25:53Speaker 01

  The physical aspect of it.

• 2:25:55Rich Roll?

  I mean, setting aside the vomiting and all.

• 2:25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but you know what the thing of is is like, yeah, that's the thing. It's like, to me, like, I'll tell people these things and they'll be like, oh, my God, it's so magical. I was like, and many people are like, but do you really like, do you throw up? Like, I'm like, oh, yeah, probably every time, sometimes the whole time. Oh, yeah, I really couldn't do that, you know? And it's like, because we have like three relationships with vomiting in our country. Like, you either are drunk, you're sick, or have an eating disorder, you know, like, and this is an experience that's not like that. And even if it was, like, to me, it's like, if the price of it.

• 2:26:25Rich Roll?

  But it's the body's natural response to removing something that it's perceiving as being negative or toxic.

• 2:26:31Speaker 01

  Right, but it's not the medicine that it's removing, right? It's, I would say that 90% of the time, maybe 100% of the time, when people have a purging experience, it's the result of an energetic thing that happens. And the purging isn't of the medicine to get the medicine out of your body. Again, there's nothing toxic in that in your body. The purging is an energetic purging, an emotional purging. And, and, you know, like, most people that have had this experience will be, will tell you that, like, yeah, like, I built this purge because, and I vomited out, like, the abuse that I experienced when I was a young child. And then when it was gone, it was gone and gone forever, you know? So, so again, yeah, we have this perception that, yeah, that, oh, yeah, I put this in and then I threw it up, so it must be a bad thing.

• 2:27:22Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the Hindus like have purging cleanses. There's, there's all kinds of like purging practices throughout, you know, it doesn't, that doesn't mean it's necessarily like proof positive that it's toxic, you know? But I will say that, that to do it alone, to do it without the, the, the vessel or the space held by a qualified and experienced teacher, or shaman, as the people will say, is, is actually inviting some danger, you know? What, you know, like,

• 2:27:59Speaker 01

  Where I've been going down in Peru is in the Sacred Valley. You know, there's a Shibipo tradition where there are dark entities and dark shamans, bruhos, that are trying to maybe like get into you and influence people in a certain way and do that kind of stuff. But where I've gone, like that really isn't a part of the experience at all. And even those things, like the entities, mostly, and most people will say that that's just a manifestation of your own stuff, you know, like...

• 2:28:30Rich Roll?

  Well, of course, they'll see, yeah. I mean, that's what Dr. Mate said to me, too. He's like, it will show you, you know, what you need to see about what you need to work on. Like, it presents you with a certain truth, right? That's sort of the line that I've received.

• 2:28:44Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:28:45Rich Roll?

  I don't mean to be pejorative about it.

• 2:28:46Speaker 01

  No, no, no. But there is a, you know, so my experience has been that even if that's not your, you know, like, in a ceremony, I've never thought about, or, and it's also just me, you know what I mean? I've never worried or been concerned in the vessel that I've been in of being mounted by a dark energy or taking on something that I wasn't...

• 2:29:10Rich Roll?

  You haven't had like a bad experience or something like that.

• 2:29:12Speaker 01

  I've had dark experiences, for sure. But there's always, there is a kind of benevolence that you feel, even in the most challenging part of that, there is a sort of safety and a healing, and you know that it's healing, you know? It's, and I've seen, it's so funny, like, I've seen people go through, and I've gone through, like, just really, really, really challenging experiences. If you have a yoga practice and can breathe through that, like, and get through it, there's, you know, there's music, these ikaros and different kinds of songs that will be sung in the ceremony that either move you deeper or anchor you in a way that you're not going to be taken so far, like, that help you out. And I personally believe that, you know, your bandwidth in that medicine expands in such a way that you're kind of leaving the confines of our ego-driven consciousness

• 2:29:57Speaker 01

  that's, that sort of is our... Like throttling down of our brain, right? Like, so we so we lose that and then tap into this like oneness, this one consciousness. And there's a kind of telepathy that occurs, right? And in that, the shaman who's singing those songs can actually know like where you are in that experience and know that they need to sing you deeper to work on this particular thing, or they need to sing you lighter to help you out of it, right? There's a there's a there's a kind of consciousness that's happening that is is really, really, really beyond, you know, anything that I've ever experienced, you know?

• 2:30:38Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 2:30:38Speaker 01

  And it's actually changed my-

• 2:30:39Rich Roll?

  How many, how many, how long have you been, how many times have you done it? And when was the first time you did it?

• 2:30:43Speaker 01

  Uh, the first time I did it was in January of 2014. So it's been almost two years.

• 2:30:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay. So it's not something like you've been doing for the last 10 years?

• 2:30:54Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, not at all. And it's been kind of around, you know, but it's one of those things I think that that it finds you-

• 2:30:58Rich Roll?

  It's having a moment right now.

• 2:31:00Speaker 01

  It is, it really is, you know?

• 2:31:01Rich Roll?

  It's like it keeps coming up. There's a lot of people talking about it. I had, um, last winter, I had Daniel Pinchbeck on the-

• 2:31:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, of course.

• 2:31:10Rich Roll?

  On the show. You know, he's like, you know, sort of our generation's, you know, kind of, uh, flag bearer for this whole kind of idea and movement around psychedelia as like a healing kind of modality. And he's got all sorts of amazing, interesting ideas. But one of the things that he expressed to me was was was somewhat of a, he's kind of had, he's having a little bit of a revisionist opinion on some of the things that he wrote, that he's written about in his books, in the sense that you're sort of like disappointed that he had, he he held out like high hopes that people would have this kind of psychedelic type experience that he had that was transformative in his own life. And it sounds like in certain

• 2:31:55Rich Roll?

  respects, you know, you've had that experience. But what he's noticed is that it is, for the most part, and not not for everybody, but it's kind of devolved into this sort of touristy kind of thing to do for the well-heeled investment banker, like, hey, let's go down to Peru. And do that we'll have we'll have a wild weekend and we'll do ayahuasca.

• 2:32:14Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:32:14Rich Roll?

  It's not coming with the proper intention and respect and kind of, you know, ideas behind it that are kind of the guiding principles that are that are driving you to do it and him as well.

• 2:32:25Speaker 01

  Well, also like.

• 2:32:25Rich Roll?

  There's a big article in the New York Times about it, right? Too. I think like all these rich people are going down and doing it. And then they're just going back and doing whatever they were doing with their lives.

• 2:32:32Speaker 01

  But they're but but you know what? They're also ruining Burning Man too. You know what I mean? It's just like there's always.

• 2:32:36Rich Roll?

  I want to talk to you about Burning Man too.

• 2:32:37Speaker 01

  Okay, but you know, but I and I say that ironically, right? Because it's like, like your burn is your burn, whether the whether there's plug and play camps or the CEO of whatever, you know, it's just like, now that the thing's gotten into the world and it's become what it's become, like, like, everyone's like, well, it's not what it used to be. And I wish it was a certain thing, you know, and.

• 2:32:55Rich Roll?

  Isn't the intention behind it to transform consciousness across the globe? And in order to do that, everybody has to be exposed to it. And so the fact that it is magnetizing more and more people and more and more people are interested in it. That's isn't that isn't that sort of part of part of the overall desire?

• 2:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, no, for sure. Absolutely. Without question. Like, you know, and again, that's the that's the thing. Like, that's the thing. It's like everyone's like.

• 2:33:18Rich Roll?

  You like everyone. So everyone suddenly likes the band.

• 2:33:21Speaker 01

  Well, that's exactly right. Like, like my favorite band, like Counting Crows are my favorite band.

• 2:33:27Rich Roll?

  Well, you're out of luck.

• 2:33:28Speaker 01

  Like, but it's like, but the thing is, is like, um, you know, everybody gets on that. And I'm like, so I could decide that I hate that song because like, everybody hates it. Or everybody loves it, you know, it's like, but no, I still like am down like with, you know, like August, August and everything after is my desert island albums. The one that I need, I get to listen to it for over and over and over and over again. But but it has become, you know, it's super trite and everybody like, you know, like.

• 2:33:55Rich Roll?

  You won't get a lot of high fives for that choice.

• 2:33:57Speaker 01

  But who cares? You know what I mean?

• 2:33:58Rich Roll?

  I actually I hear you. Every song on that album is good.

• 2:34:00Speaker 01

  Oh, it's so good. But and that's the same way where it's like, um, yeah. And I think that that it all depends on, I think it depends on the experience, the the shaman, I think, I think, you know, like. I will say that I've never been to the jungle of Peru, right? I've never been to Akitos or Pucalpa where these like sort of huge, I mean, they're almost like Agra, like Taj Mahal, like where you go and there's just like, you know, like people are pressing this and trying to sell the medicine and it's become a real tourist thing and people are are trying to take advantage of the naive tourist that wants to go down there and and do exactly that uninformed, you know? There are safe places to go and there are people that that are seekers of the medicine that will go to those places and they are, those are the places where people are being

• 2:34:45Speaker 01

  radically healed and and are really sort of making those change. But it doesn't, I mean, just because like there are all these other people kind of going and, you know, like, yeah, has it been commodified? Hugely, you know, like.

• 2:34:57Rich Roll?

  It's interesting, like, why now? Like, what is going on right now that has made it, you know, kind of like this zeitgeist thing?

• 2:35:02Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, we're like, it depends on what, I mean, you could have like.

• 2:35:09Rich Roll?

  Like if you're removing, if you're, if you're expanding your bandwidth, you're removing the blinders and and looking at it broadly.

• 2:35:16Speaker 01

  I mean, a couple of things that, you know, like, a couple of things that go on. One, we need it now, you know, like we, we in our world need it now because without this kind of expanded awareness or or the feeling of, you know, like psychedelics are suppressed in our culture because we have a dominator culture, right? Terrence McKinnon would talk about how like, you know, like caffeine and alcohol and sugar and cocaine are now Adderall, like are the things that run our dominator commodified consumer culture, right? And and these feminizers, cannabis, ayahuasca, these other things that like open your heart and open you to a larger experience, shatter your paradigms of reality and certainly and

• 2:36:00Speaker 01

  by by default shatter your your acceptance of of this, you know, like, very limited view of reality that we've accepted in our, in the United States, like. You know, people, we need to shatter that in order to to be able to survive. Otherwise, it's like we're we're in some trouble, right? And also in some ways, like, like, uh, which I also think is is is true. There is this intelligence of these plants that are like, I'm like, okay, well, if we get all the white guys from the United States to like, take us, maybe they'll stop destroying our home, you know, like, like, if if if we're, you know, the the rainforests, you know, like, like, um, and so there's, there's a, there's a, you know, maybe a conscious effort of this

• 2:36:45Speaker 01

  plant to sort of move itself and move the consciousness in a way to to really like, heal, you know, and heal the planet.

• 2:36:54Speaker 01

  So, you know, you know, so that's, I mean, that's happening now. Those things are are happening.

• 2:36:59Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. Or or for us to go and exploit it.

• 2:37:03Speaker 01

  Well, that's definitely true. And and and yet, there's no, there's no way that that's that's not going to happen. But I also think that if people continue to, uh, yeah, like, like every one of these, like, addictive, um, painkillers or or, um, uh, antidepressants or whatever came from a plant in the Amazon, right? And we've taken it and like, reduced it to the thing that has like, you know, as as Colin Campbell will talk about, you know, like, here's the, you know, we have this thing that it does, and then it has like 27 side effects, right? And he will just be like, yeah, exactly. And he'll be like, actually, it has 28 effects. Only one of them is the one you want, but like, just because, you know, they're not side effects, they're all effects. They just happen to be not the effect that you want. You know what I mean?

• 2:37:45Speaker 01

  And so like, yeah, like, I mean, imagining this, oh, now I've got your psychedelic, and you're gonna take that, and it's gonna help you in this way, and or putting it in the hands of of the the VA or the Pentagon to treat PTSD with it, or in in the hands of psychiatrists to who are who are distributing and prescribing like, uh, SSRIs and immunohinditors like left and right, like, give them then the power to like, like, prescribe ayahuasca or whatever, or maybe it stays in these circles where. Real people are taking control of their consciousness and and bringing it out into the world and whether people are drinking the medicine or not like it's not like I'm not you know trying to convince you or anyone to to drink the medicine, right?

• 2:38:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and to be fair, you know, the people that I know that have talked to me about it, nobody, nobody's trying to get me to do something I don't want to do.

• 2:38:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure, but I will tell you that like-

• 2:38:36Rich Roll?

  And I probably won't do it, but you know, but I'm interested in hearing, you know, and it's undeniable to me that I know people that whose lives have, they're better off as a result of it. Like, I can't, you know, I can't deny that.

• 2:38:47Speaker 01

  Like, I don't, you know, I mean, I don't know if I'm better off, you know, I have, I have, I'm, yeah, no, I am. My heart is like radically open in a way that it wasn't before. I'm, I'm working in a much deeper level and I'm seeing my responsibility in everything that I do in, in a way that I didn't before. And my, I have seen the way that our illusion of reality, how my limited bandwidth creates the small reality that I live in, and I know that there's something bigger. And I can operate with the knowledge of that bigger thing and kind of play in a way in this world where, where the world becomes magic in that way, you know? And, and I then want to be a vessel for the stories

• 2:39:30Speaker 01

  that, that are, are like heart opening and not, you know, like disaster movies or violence or, or those kinds of things. And so in that way, like if I then am able to sort of create the platform to tell those stories, well, then that's a, that, and, and people are affected by that because of, because the paradigm shifts in the way that films are being made or, or what the consciousness is, what people want to see and, and-

• 2:39:56Rich Roll?

  Well, even beyond that, what about the paradigm shift, just in terms of, of, you know, how we conceptualize consciousness and how we, you know, think of ourselves as, as men and how we define masculinity?

• 2:40:08Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:40:09Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's like, you know, the way that you are kind of, you know, just speaking in general is very much at odds with how we would sort of, you know, the predominant paradigm would perceive a man, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago.

• 2:40:23Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:40:24Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? It's like very threatening. You're talking about your emotions and consciousness and like all these things that are, to use your word, are, you know, quite feminized.

• 2:40:32Speaker 01

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 2:40:33Rich Roll?

  Right? So it's, I think there is a shift in- In, uh, in kind of, you know, not gender roles.

• 2:40:40Speaker 01

  And I'm a vegan too, by the way, right? I don't eat animals, right?

• 2:40:42Rich Roll?

  We've been talking for like two and a half hours. We haven't even talked about the fact that we barely even touched on the vegan thing at all. You know what I mean?

• 2:40:50Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:40:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like you're, you're a super macho guy, you know, jumping off buildings and like running around, you know, on fire and shit. But you're this vegan and you're talking about your emotions and how you can kind of, you know, perfect, you know, your human capabilities when it comes to, uh, your consciousness.

• 2:41:09Speaker 01

  But isn't that though, like that is, to me, that really is masculinity. Like that's a masculinity that like, that doesn't fit into the paradigm of our culture or our society. But I think it's a larger, like, like embracing of the creativity of, of divine feminine or femininity in that way. And that like, like I've, I've, I've lived and worked in the arts for, you know, like three decades, you know? And it's like, that's, art is creative. It's, it's, you know, like when it's, when it's, uh, you know, when the, the patron is the, the church. Well, there might be a more masculine aspect, but creativity as a experience is a feminine experience, you know?

• 2:41:48Speaker 01

  Which is why like, everyone's like, well, what are you gonna do? Be in the theater and what are you, girl? You know, whatever.

• 2:41:55Rich Roll?

  Well, you have it painted on your back because Shiva is like the ultimate kind of manifestation of, of masculinity. And it's like very primal force, but he kind of looks like a chick. You know what I mean? There's a very feminine aspect to the portrayal of that. Like, that's very interesting.

• 2:42:10Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 2:42:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, so it's, it's an embrace of that feminine energy as part and parcel of, of, you know, becoming like the, the fully expressed masculine.

• 2:42:20Speaker 01

  For sure. And Shiva also without, I mean, ultimate consciousness, right? But without Shakti, like actual creative force is nothing.

• 2:42:29Rich Roll?

  Inert.

• 2:42:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, nothing.

• 2:42:31Rich Roll?

  Interesting. So, uh, how, how long you been going to Burning Man?

• 2:42:36Speaker 01

  Uh, my first year Burning Man was 2009.

• 2:42:38Rich Roll?

  Two thou-, oh, so it hasn't ended now. So here I got a story for you.

• 2:42:41Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:42:43Rich Roll?

  Uh, I was working on a movie. Um, so I was still a lawyer. I was like, I, I hooked my train up to being a producer on this movie. I was actually doing production legal on it. It was like a low, uh, independent movie, super low budget, uh, shooting in Montreal. It was called See This Movie.

• 2:43:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:43:00Rich Roll?

  It was being produced by my friend Joe Smith and executive produced by Chris Weitz.

• 2:43:07Speaker 01

  All right, okay.

• 2:43:08Rich Roll?

  And starring Seth Meyer, this was like, you know, Seth Meyers while he was still on Saturday Night Live, and John Cho. And we're shooting, we're there for like four or five weeks in Montreal.

• 2:43:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:43:20Rich Roll?

  And it's like September and we're like halfway through the shoot and Chris Weitz goes, "Hey man, I gotta leave."

• 2:43:29Speaker 01

  You know, like, you know, I camp with Chris at Burning Man, right?

• 2:43:32Rich Roll?

  This is why I'm telling this story, right? In the middle of making this movie, Chris says, "I gotta leave, I gotta go to Burning Man."

• 2:43:38Speaker 01

  He has a clause.

• 2:43:39Rich Roll?

  You're a producer on this movie, you can't leave and go to Burning Man. He's like, "What do you mean? I think it's actually cool that your producer has to go to Burning Man in the middle of production." And he left.

• 2:43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:50Rich Roll?

  And then he came back like a week later and he's like, "Oh, that's amazing."

• 2:43:54Speaker 01

  Right, no, he's-

• 2:43:55Rich Roll?

  This is like 2004 or something like that.

• 2:43:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:58Rich Roll?

  And for people that don't know, Chris Weitz is a very prolific, amazing, brilliant, accomplished writer-director in Hollywood.

• 2:44:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:44:07Rich Roll?

  Him and his brother made that movie about a boy. They were nominated for an Academy Award for that script, I think. Chris is now writing one of the Star Wars movies. Like, he's just insanely gifted and cool.

• 2:44:19Speaker 01

  And cool, like, we're like really like-

• 2:44:20Rich Roll?

  Very, very cool.

• 2:44:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:44:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, very, very cool.

• 2:44:22Speaker 01

  Super cool family, like they're my family. I mean, they're just great.

• 2:44:25Rich Roll?

  I just ran into him in Venice a couple of weeks ago. I hadn't seen him in quite some time. But, um, but anyway, so he's like your, he's like your Burning Man bro.

• 2:44:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. And his kids too, like, like, you know, his wife Mercedes. In fact, the reason that I, the reason that I camp there, I was friends with Mercedes before they met.

• 2:44:43Rich Roll?

  The Ashram Galactica.

• 2:44:44Speaker 01

  Ashram Galactica, that's the camp. And, um, and they, uh, Mercedes and another friend of theirs, Teresa Livingston, who is now a yoga teacher and just a beautiful soul, like they came to a retreat, Chris, or not, Mercedes and Teresa came to a retreat that I was teaching

• 2:45:04Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:45:04Speaker 01

  Uh, in Ojai at Matilla Hot Springs, right?

• 2:45:08Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:45:09Speaker 01

  And then we became friends and, and, and they were actually trying to get me to go to Burning Man since like- 2006, but I always, I mean, I literally always had a pirate movie that kept me from going like for years.

• 2:45:20Rich Roll?

  I can't go to Burning Man and pretend to be a pirate because I actually have to go pretend to be a pirate somewhere else.

• 2:45:25Speaker 01

  I'm telling you, there was one year, like in 2000, I'd gone in 2009, in 2010, I was gonna go. And I was in the tank, Falls Lake, back lot of Universal. And I was actually gonna go for the last two days to see the temple burn and to strike.

• 2:45:43Speaker 01

  And then we ended up going an extra day and I was still gonna go for like a day to help them like break down the camp, right? But it was just like, but for years I had a, I actually had a pirate film that like, that like kept me from going to Burning Man, right?

• 2:45:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you had like your own like version of Burning Man, you know.

• 2:45:58Speaker 01

  But yeah, Chris and Mercedes, you know, like, I mean, they, they have three children now, but like, you know, two of their kids have gone. And I mean, they're, you know, it's like a family, like family out there, you know? It's like a really, and again, like, who, who cares what else is going on? You know what I mean? It's just like, there's a, there is love and heart opening and, and magic that's happening there. And, and if your, you know, experience is, is radical self-expression and participation and these things that kind of are like bandied around as the like, that sort of principles of, of Burning Man, you know, like, well, then that, that makes all those other things kind of okay, you know?

• 2:46:38Speaker 01

  Cause it's not like, I'm gonna, well, I'm gonna sit there and be like, well, I'm here at Burning Man and it sucks because like a mile away, literally.

• 2:46:46Rich Roll?

  There's a bunch of Silicon Valley guys.

• 2:46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, like that, it's like, that doesn't affect me at all, you know? Or it does because they, they like actually like come out, open their heart, like expand their consciousness and come back and make some like radical magic that like, changes the way that we like view the world, you know? Bring them all, bring them all, like, there was like. I forget who was like, some years ago, everybody was like, some conservative pundit was there, you know, everybody was like, Grover Norquist or somebody was at Burning Man, you know what I mean? It was just like, what the, you know, like, but it's like, bring them, like, bring them all.

• 2:47:19Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, I mean, to, to think-

• 2:47:20Speaker 01

  Mom, Dad, I want you to come to Burning Man with me.

• 2:47:22Rich Roll?

  To make that-

• 2:47:23Speaker 01

  I want you to come to Peru too.

• 2:47:24Rich Roll?

  Right, to make that judgment, like, oh, well, having a guy like that is, is somehow like, you know, diluting Burning Man, is to say that Burning Man doesn't have the power to absorb a guy like that and transform him. Like, if you really believe in the power of Burning Man and like, this collective consciousness, then it shouldn't be an issue.

• 2:47:42Speaker 01

  No, exactly right.

• 2:47:42Rich Roll?

  Everybody should come, right?

• 2:47:44Speaker 01

  That's exactly right.

• 2:47:44Rich Roll?

  And then go back into the world and the ripple effect of that experience should sort of, you know, wash over everybody in a positive way.

• 2:47:52Speaker 01

  Well, and, and it's my, I mean, that's my sort of experience of Burning Man, it's my experience of psychedelics, my experience with being a vegan, you know, where, where, in Burning Man in particular, right? So like, like, 2009, you know, like, people were like, oh my God, I can't believe Tramp is going to Burning Man like that. He's, of course he is, he's like, insane, you know, and then it's like, oh, you went to Burning Man? Tell me your stories. It's like, oh, you went to Burning Man? I wanna, I wanna go next year. And it's like, holy crap, I'm camping with you at Burning Man. Like, it's just like, it's how, like, it's, and that's the same person, you know what I mean? It's just like, and it, and it shifts, and, and that's, that's great, you know, like, again, let everybody come. And let them experience something that like, I mean, the, the magic of Burning Man is that like,

• 2:48:32Speaker 01

  you know, it's not, you know, most people think it's a, a music festival, there are like, these sound camps and there's things that happen, but it is this sort of like, you know, immersive art festival, really, and, and, and half of the art is you and is an individual and how you're participating, you know? It's a, it's a gifting economy, which is, you know, everybody's like, oh yeah, it's a bartering. And then bartering implies that like, if I give you something, you have to give me something in trade, you know, it's like, gifting is, I, I, you, I see that you need something and I help you out, or I have a thing and I just give it to you, you know, it's like, which is a completely different paradigm, right?

• 2:49:04Rich Roll?

  Unconditional giving.

• 2:49:05Speaker 01

  And, yeah, and, and it is a, it, it's a-

• 2:49:10Speaker 01

  You know, it's a city that comes up and it gets built for a week and it lives for a week and then it goes away. And, and all of these works of art, not all of them, but the majority of them are made out of wood and get burned down at the end of the week. You know, and, and so here's these things that people have been working on for years, maybe, you know, or at least that year from the last burn and up into that. And, and it gets celebrated and then it burns down, you know, and it goes away and everyone loves it. And that is like-

• 2:49:37Rich Roll?

  It's like the Zen Buddhist monks that make the mandalas out of sand.

• 2:49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's exactly that.

• 2:49:41Rich Roll?

  They'll spend weeks and then the wind blows it away.

• 2:49:43Speaker 01

  And that's such a threat to our paradigm, right? Because here, like, I feel like in America, like, as much as our, we have this sort of like, you know, like, Christian paradigm that like involves a heaven and an afterlife and those kinds of things that we're so astonishingly afraid of death, you know? And, and that fear of death informs our culture in every way. And if people like see this, this sort of temporal nature of that festival and the magic that can be had and like the celebration that it can be and, and the fact that it goes away and will never be again in that same way.

• 2:50:19Rich Roll?

  Well, that, that like palpable lesson of impermanence is terrifying and frightening.

• 2:50:25Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 2:50:25Rich Roll?

  Because it brings up this idea that we, we ourselves are impermanent.

• 2:50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:50:29Rich Roll?

  And it's a challenge to the kind of, you know, status quo paradigm of property ownership.

• 2:50:34Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 2:50:35Rich Roll?

  You know, so-

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50:36Rich Roll?

  Who wants that?

• 2:50:37Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, like, you know, but we'll say that, we'll say that, right? You can't take it with you. We'll say that over and over and yet we don't-

• 2:50:45Rich Roll?

  That doesn't drive our decision-

• 2:50:46Speaker 01

  We don't believe it. We don't believe it.

• 2:50:48Rich Roll?

  We think we're gonna be the exception.

• 2:50:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:50:50Rich Roll?

  We're actually gonna be able to take it with us, but, and we're also gonna dodge death.

• 2:50:53Speaker 01

  And yet, when you embody, like, when you really embody this idea of impermanence, like, when you see something that you've celebrated as beautiful and that people are really like loving and you've had, and see it go up in flame and, and embrace that, right? Like, if that enters your heart and your life changes, like, then the world changes. And so whoever, you know, like Donald Rumsfeld or, or whoever wants to go there, Sarah Palin goes to Burning Man and, and like-

• 2:51:23Speaker 01

  She has a transformative experience, like radical, you know, bring her like, I don't know if I want to burn with her, but like, like, let her, let her, let her be there. You know what, I would burn with her. Like, I say that, I'm just like, Sarah, if you're listening, come to Burning Man with me. Surely, like, yeah, the vegan fitness.

• 2:51:47Speaker 01

  That's her like buzzwords that she's looking for on iTunes.

• 2:51:53Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, that would be a great place to lock it down. We've been going, dude, we're coming up on three hours here, but I can't let you out without kind of getting some context for how, you know, your veganism kind of plays into all of this and how it fits. You know, I mean, it seems to be, you know, an extrapolation of your kind of core value system. But how did that all begin? And how does that kind of work in your life?

• 2:52:16Speaker 01

  You know, it was interesting. I became vegetarian initially because of my yoga practice and that idea of like, like,

• 2:52:26Speaker 01

  seeing it's sort of, yeah, but more of an experiment in consciousness. You know what I mean? Like really like trying to, well, what's going to happen if I shift? And then those things did happen, right? Like, there was a shift in consciousness and, and I realized I wasn't lacking in any way. And I certainly wasn't, you know, like diminished as a person or as an athlete or performing in any way, you know, and

• 2:52:46Rich Roll?

  That's a weird epiphany to have when you go, wait, this is like an option?

• 2:52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And, and then, you know, when I was, I mean, I spent time on these pirate movies and we spent a lot of time in the, in the Caribbean and, and I mean, there was a point where I was like, okay, I'm going to eat fish again because like I'm on this island, like for months that is like fresh rivers and, you know, like ocean fish. And I was like, you know, and I didn't have quite, I kind of still had the, this sort of mythological paradigm that I needed some animal protein and that the, that the fish was a sustainable, so like all the things that are wrong. Like I still was in that thing. And then, and I met Jean Pierre, like, so like a few things happened, like a

• 2:53:25Rich Roll?

  Fitness trainer.

• 2:53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, a friend, so like a friend of mine introduced me to Jean Pierre, right about the same time I saw Earthlings and read the China study. And so I was like, oh, whoa, I'm like,

• 2:53:35Rich Roll?

  That's a synchronicity of events.

• 2:53:37Speaker 01

  Exactly. Right? And so I thought, I was like, I need to talk to this guy and, and figure out how I can make this happen. And So when I met with him, you know, I was talking about the, I was talking about the environment. And I was talking about my athletic performance, like around, you know, like, like Brendan's stuff had come out at that point. I don't think your book had come out quite yet.

• 2:54:00Rich Roll?

  No, no, no. Yeah, yeah, but Vega came out.

• 2:54:02Speaker 01

  Vega was out, you know, there was all these different things, you know, so I was kind of around like, like, you know, like performance as a vegan or that, you know, that option was just sort of like being introduced into our consciousness. And, and then, you know, of course, the China study was really more about like health and those kinds of things. And, and as I was talking to, and my concern was, was health and that, you know, and, and Jean-Pierre was like, listen, man, you know, there seems to be this other like compassionate thing about you that you're not focusing on. And, and I was like, you know what, bro, I, if you talked to me five years ago, I would have said yes. But, you know, now I'm like kind of really entrenched in the stunt community and the people that I'm around like aren't in that way. And, and kind of almost like a pebble in the water, like I've been softened,

• 2:54:47Speaker 01

  you know, like my sort of like real kind of ethical concern in that way has, has diminished. And I said, but I really hope that like by shifting my diet, I can shift my consciousness. And, and literally like within two weeks of, of making the commitment to be a vegan, within two weeks, I was like, I can't wear this down jacket. I, I like, I, you know, I was like, I really like a, a huge compassionate transformation occurred, right? And so when people ask me now, like, why are you vegan? You know, like, I'm like, well, pick a reason. Like, why do you either admire or hate vegans? You know, like, and, and is it because like, you know, like, the environment or compassion or, you know, like whatever it is, like, like

• 2:55:31Speaker 01

  all of those things, athletic performance, health, animals, the environment, like all of it. There's no like, like, there's not a reason for me to choose otherwise, you know, like I, I'm winning in all of those ways, you know?

• 2:55:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, checks every box.

• 2:55:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also like, I think, you know, it also allows me-

• 2:55:51Rich Roll?

  Acceptance, social acceptance box.

• 2:55:52Speaker 01

  But what I was just gonna say, like, because of that, it also allows me to, you know, in the same way that like, you know, my name Trampas, right? Like, I've never had to fit in because of my name. As soon as I say my name, I'm immediately- Different in a way, you know, the conversation is going to be about my name. People are going to make fun of my name. People are going to not know how to say it like however it is, it's going to be the coolest thing they've ever heard. I'm going to tell my stories about my name, but I've never had to like I learned as a young kid that I never had to fit in because I really actually couldn't, right?

• 2:56:22Rich Roll?

  That's super interesting.

• 2:56:23Speaker 01

  And it and I think that that my name in that way has really been the thing that has opened up a lot of this experience for me, right? Because I I don't try to fit in like I don't care because I I never could, right? And so I just never had that like

• 2:56:39Rich Roll?

  It's almost like a predestined thing.

• 2:56:41Speaker 01

  So amazing, right? And that's the same thing about like so then being a vegan in that way where if I'm already making these choices that are like, like outside of the social acceptance, then then why not push that further, right? So

• 2:56:57Rich Roll?

  You're already a stuntman named Trampas.

• 2:56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:57:00Rich Roll?

  Go all the way to the wall.

• 2:57:01Speaker 01

  Right. But even then, but then when I I mean, that was the other thing. As soon as I like, like made that commitment to be vegan, like my other sort of like, sort of political, spiritual kind of ideas were also galvanized. You know, it it actually like galvanized those things for me. You know what I mean?

• 2:57:21Rich Roll?

  I get that. I mean, that's that's been my experience.

• 2:57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:57:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's super. That's that's really fascinating. And interesting that that that like your cipher was John Pierre.

• 2:57:31Speaker 01

  I know, right? Yeah, I love John Pierre. He's so great.

• 2:57:35Rich Roll?

  He's a character man.

• 2:57:36Speaker 01

  He fully is. He's, yeah.

• 2:57:38Rich Roll?

  He's not in LA too much anymore. I saw him this summer at an event.

• 2:57:41Speaker 01

  He's in Colorado mostly now, right?

• 2:57:43Rich Roll?

  Pretty much. And he's starting like an animal sanctuary now. He's getting more into that aspect of it, I think.

• 2:57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's somebody definitely somebody we can all look kind of like he's he's walking it in a way that's really, really profound.

• 2:57:54Rich Roll?

  Like gets up at four o'clock in the morning, you know, he doesn't need like he's like a he lives a very sort of at least when he was in Los Angeles, kind of very much a gypsy lifestyle.

• 2:58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:58:04Rich Roll?

  But he's dialed in like he's working with all these amazing people that, you know, kind of behind the scenes.

• 2:58:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:58:09Rich Roll?

  Working with like cops and SWAT people and celebrities.

• 2:58:12Speaker 01

  Like domestic abuse, you know, like women's issues and different things. Yeah, for sure. And he's somebody that's like You know, like, he's like, I, I wouldn't kill a mosquito. And, and you know what? Like,

• 2:58:23Rich Roll?

  You see him and you're like, I believe you.

• 2:58:25Speaker 01

  You wouldn't. That's the thing. He's just like, like, it's like, I'm like, you know, like, that's like, it's a strength in the path that like you can, that I can aspire to because I assure you like, I will kill a mosquito.

• 2:58:38Rich Roll?

  And how did you meet John Joseph? Where did that happen?

• 2:58:41Speaker 01

  So that happened, um, you know, I think that, uh, I think he'd been on your podcast, maybe. And, uh, and then I saw that he was doing that walking tour of,

• 2:58:51Rich Roll?

  Oh, he did the walking.

• 2:58:51Speaker 01

  Of the Lower East Side. And, um, and we went and met up with him and, and, uh, of course, then, you know, like, talked to him afterwards and, and really like, kind of latched into the like, the vegan part of it, you know, like, there was all this stuff about the like, the rock and roll and the drugs and the, you know, all the crime and the murder and all this like, crazy stuff about like, his life in Lower East Side, you know? But then, of course, the, the tour basically ends at Angelica Kitchen.

• 2:59:20Speaker 01

  And so like, we, you know, like, stayed and ate lunch with him. At Angelica, you know, and, and that, uh, like instantly hit it off, you know?

• 2:59:28Rich Roll?

  That's cool. Did you see that, uh, Vice just did a new piece with them? It was like a little mini documentary.

• 2:59:33Speaker 01

  That fuel thing with the, when he did the triathlon or like it's the,

• 2:59:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the one where he makes the smoothie, but it's like one that just went up like maybe two weeks ago.

• 2:59:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. He sent it to me and it's like, yeah, like he's like, um, like he travels to, to like a full on triathlon and, and, what's the race that he, that he ran though?

• 2:59:52Rich Roll?

  Boulder?

• 2:59:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was in Colorado. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. Like, that was really, really cool. He's great in that. Like, and I love that it shows, I mean, again, what I like, what an awesome guy he is, you know, like, I mean, I remember like, the first time I heard him on your podcast and, and he's just like, you like, it's meant, you spend 40 minutes like, being like, by the way, he's gonna drop some F bombs.

• 3:00:15Rich Roll?

  You know, I kept it pretty clean. And in general, I keep it pretty clean. Like, I don't get uptight if people swear or whatever, but like, I know there's a lot of young kids that listen or like moms that have it in the kitchen. So just that was such a radical departure from the thing I'd done. And I was like, no, you don't understand. There's gonna be, it's not like he says the F word a couple of times, like, it's every three seconds. Yeah, like, like three hours straight.

• 3:00:37Speaker 01

  It's that he, he surprisingly says other words besides the F word. Like, that's the real shock. But, but the best part is like, he's like, you know, like talking about like, you know, like these, these like, You know, high level of concepts about reincarnation and samsaras and the sort of wheel of karma and like, just like, you know, but the way he introduces that was just like, sort of like, like seventeen F bombs on the way in, you know, and I'm actually like trying like really hard not to say it too, but it's just like, it's so funny because he just like, yeah, because he's always just like, oh, you got these fucking samsaras, like you're gonna like burn them off. And it's like, like, if you're hearing what he's talking about, it's like really spiritual and heart opening and amazing, you know, and almost and everything comes out of his mouth. And so what I love about that video is, you know, when they're

• 3:01:22Speaker 01

  making dinner, he and Erica are making dinner and it's like, he's like, Pradap is there and he likes, he has, he has his altar and he like, you know, like has his ritual with the food, you know, it's just like.

• 3:01:32Rich Roll?

  The, the, um, the incense out.

• 3:01:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:01:36Rich Roll?

  And like, I've had dinner at his house and he does that. I can tell you like, he lives that.

• 3:01:40Speaker 01

  No, for sure. For sure. He does.

• 3:01:42Rich Roll?

  There's, there's, there's, that's a really beautiful.

• 3:01:44Speaker 01

  No, it's so beautiful. And it's beautiful that then, you know, like also he's like, it shows him performing the Cro-Mags, it shows him training, it shows him like, you know, like in the race and.

• 3:01:54Rich Roll?

  They broke the mold of that guy.

• 3:01:55Speaker 01

  Full on, full on.

• 3:01:56Rich Roll?

  And I just think he, he has such a unique facility for communicating with certain people in a certain way. And I, and, and he's just, he's about service, man. And there's a lot to be learned from that. Like if you just follow him around on the streets of New York City for a day and watch how he interacts with people. I've never been around anyone else like that. You could say whatever you want, but like, I'm telling you, like, not only, he takes an interest in every single person he encounters on the street.

• 3:02:25Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 3:02:26Rich Roll?

  He's got, you know, five bucks in his wallet. It's coming out of his wallet and it's going into that guy's hand who needs it most.

• 3:02:31Speaker 01

  For sure, for sure.

• 3:02:32Rich Roll?

  Every single time.

• 3:02:32Speaker 01

  No, you're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. It really is amazing. Yeah, he's, he's, you're right. They broke the mold. He's really an awesome dude.

• 3:02:38Rich Roll?

  So, all right, man, we got to end this, but I'm going to ask you the question that I've avoided asking you the entire time. What is the craziest thing you ever did as a stunt man?

• 3:02:47Speaker 01

  You know, I will say that that, um, that burn that I was talking about on Southland was, was pretty, pretty intense, you know, because I, like I said, I didn't have a mask, I didn't have gloves. Um, I got, I did get some burns, you know, on that one. Um, for as big as that fire was, like, I'm lucky that I, you know, it's a testament to the, to the setup and, and all that stuff that I didn't get burned worse. Um, but yeah, like that was one of the, that was a thing where I was like. Yeah, I don't know if I'm gonna get out of this one, you know?

• 3:03:17Rich Roll?

  And where does the name come from?

• 3:03:19Speaker 01

  Trampas is, it's, well, my parents got it from a TV show. It was a western called The Virginian. And Doug McClure.

• 3:03:26Rich Roll?

  I think he told me this.

• 3:03:27Speaker 01

  Doug McClure played Trampas. And, but interestingly, like, and so Doug, so Trampas in the TV show was, came on as a bad guy and then was reformed to be a good guy. But in the book, the name, like, he's, the character's the bad guy. He's like a murderer and a cattle thief and gets killed by the Virginian, right? So, you know, obviously, there's, I can just imagine the, like, studio meeting where they're like, oh, no, no, we'll just make him a good guy. It's perfect, you know? But Trampas in Spanish means tricks or traps, right? And Trampas is a trickster or con artist, right? So it's, so it's actually the perfect name for a bad guy in a book and the worst name for the good guy, right?

• 3:04:08Speaker 01

  It's like, and so like, so like, I'm sort of the, the, uh, uh, butt of the ultimate, like, kind of cosmic joke about my name, you know?

• 3:04:17Rich Roll?

  But if, but if I was to ask your parents why they chose that name for you?

• 3:04:20Speaker 01

  Well, you know, my dad's a cattle rancher. They loved the show. My mom thought cowboys in general, my dad included, and, and of course Doug McClure was, you know, good looking and that, like, so they loved the show and they loved that character, like, but they, but they didn't know, they had no idea that it meant that, you know, but, but the other part of that is like, like, I was, when I was living in Ireland, I was reading Death in the Afternoon, which is a book about bullfighting that Ernest Hemingway wrote. And, and so forgive me for talking about bullfighting in the vegan podcast, but one of the things that, like, you know, in that event, to make it, if you can make it any kind of significant, you know, like, I have my judgments about bullfighting.

• 3:05:00Speaker 01

  It should, the disclaimer is, it's like, a ridiculous practice, but, but the matter has to, like, be right between the horns when he kills the bull, right? Now, um, some, and that's, that was what creates this sort of, like, it's the alchemy that makes this, like, symbol between life and death, or man overcoming, like, darkness or shadow or. Uh, the monster. And, uh, but sometimes a matador will like do something that's kind of tricky. That, um, you know, looks really flashy, but doesn't put him in that spot of danger. And the, uh, noveleros in the audience will be like, oh, wow, that's really amazing. And the aficionados are like, trampas, it's a trick, right?

• 3:05:40Rich Roll?

  Right, it's not the real thing.

• 3:05:42Speaker 01

  They don't believe it, right? And so, uh, in the glossary, in, uh, that book, Death in the Afternoon, he talks about these bullfighting words. He defines trampas as the appearance of danger where none really exists. Right? I mean, I was 27 years old when I read that. That's exactly what I do with my life, right? Like, I create this illusion of violence, like, it's this, you know, like, how crazy is that, right?

• 3:06:06Rich Roll?

  That's crazy.

• 3:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, amazing. And then, and then later, when I was, I'm 42, this guy, I was, I went to this restaurant and I'd gone there a lot and the guy, takeout guy was like, so I, so I'd sort of lived with that paradigm for some years. I don't believe it, you know, like, it's, you know, the appearance of danger where none really exists. It's, it's, you know, like, that's bullshit or whatever, you know, like, uh, or it is bullshit, you know, like, so. This guy was like, hey, trampas, you know, your name is unbelievable. He says to me, this is a few, a couple of years ago. I was like, well, you know, it's pretty cool, I'll admit it, but like, I don't know if it's unbelievable. And he's like, no, it's unbelievable. And, uh, because my grandmother used to watch the telenovelas and when she would see something that she didn't believe, she would yell trampas at the, at the screen. So it's unbelievable. And I was like, oh yeah, unbelievable.

• 3:06:48Speaker 01

  Like, that's another, like, that's just a different sort of, like, awareness of that. You know, I don't believe it versus unbelievable, right? And so like, my name actually means unbelievable.

• 3:07:01Speaker 01

  How I define myself now, fully unbelievable.

• 3:07:05Rich Roll?

  The podcast is officially over.

• 3:07:08Rich Roll?

  We gotta end it there. Yeah, like, drop the mic and walk away, dude. We did it.

• 3:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 3:07:14Rich Roll?

  Thanks, man, that was awesome.

• 3:07:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you, really cool.

• 3:07:17Rich Roll?

  So, uh, you feel good?

• 3:07:19Speaker 01

  I feel great.

• 3:07:19Rich Roll?

  Good.

• 3:07:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:07:20Rich Roll?

  I feel like you could talk for like eight more hours.

• 3:07:22Speaker 01

  I fully could. I got that from my dad.

• 3:07:24Rich Roll?

  Well, come on back and we'll talk some more.

• 3:07:25Speaker 01

  I'll do it. I'd love to.

• 3:07:26Rich Roll?

  Cool. So, all right, if you're digging on Trampas, uh, trampusthompson.com and at Trampas T is the Twitter. Well, you don't tweet. You, I think your last tweet was like January. So I don't know why I told you to be able to go there.

• 3:07:38Speaker 01

  No, go there. I'm gonna, I'm actually gonna start.

• 3:07:39Rich Roll?

  You're on Facebook.

• 3:07:40Speaker 01

  I'm gonna start Instagramming too.

• 3:07:41Rich Roll?

  Are you?

• 3:07:42Speaker 01

  I'm at, at Trampas at Instagram.

• 3:07:45Rich Roll?

  At Trampas?

• 3:07:46Speaker 01

  I literally have zero pictures up, but like.

• 3:07:49Rich Roll?

  It's so enticing for a listener.

• 3:07:50Speaker 01

  No, but I told, like, I have this whole, like, Instagram.

• 3:07:54Rich Roll?

  You have this crazy.

• 3:07:55Speaker 01

  I'm gonna down.

• 3:07:55Rich Roll?

  You could be like carrying a GoPro when you do this crazy stuff and like get these amazing shots.

• 3:08:00Speaker 01

  No, I'm gonna, I like, I have this big fat download that's like, today, there's nothing, like, in two weeks, it's gonna be like, you're gonna be like, oh, wow, this is like so rich in content to my, my Instagram. That's my commitment to myself.

• 3:08:11Rich Roll?

  Well, I'll, I'll hold you that.

• 3:08:12Speaker 01

  Okay, cool.

• 3:08:13Rich Roll?

  All right, cool, man. Well, peace.

• 3:08:15Speaker 01

  Thanks, brother.

• 3:08:24Rich Roll?

  All right, that's our show for today. Hope you guys enjoyed it. If you're digging the RRP and you're new to the show and you want to delve into episodes beyond the most recent 50, which is what you see on iTunes, well, we have an app for that. It's the Rich Roll app and it's totally free. Just search Rich Roll in the App Store. It'll pop right up. That way you can carry around the entire catalog on your iOS device, everywhere you go, all the time. For all your plant power and RRP schwag and merch needs, especially over this holiday season, visit richroll.com. We've got signed copies of our cookbook, The Plant Power Way, signed copies of Finding Ultra. We've got all kinds of cool t-shirts and Plant Power Tech Tees. We have Julie's Meditation Program, all kinds of awesome stuff.

• 3:09:06Rich Roll?

  And also, I should point out, now through New Year's weekend, all of our nutrition products are 50% off. 50% off? That's insane. So get them while they last because they're going quick. Uh, all kinds of awesome stuff to take your health and your life to the next level. Keep sending in your questions for future Q and A podcasts at [email protected]. If you are into online courses, go to MindBodyGreen.com. We have The Art of Living with Purpose, which is all about goal-setting. Also, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, all about getting more plant-powered. Both of these courses are multiple hours of streaming video content. Really proud of them, very affordably priced. You can also gift them, which is cool. So, check that out. Thanks for supporting the show, for telling your friends, for sharing it on social media,

• 3:09:50Rich Roll?

  for always using the Amazon banner at RichRoll.com for all your Amazon purchases. I love you guys. I will see you guys back here in a couple of days with another awesome, amazing episode. And until then, enjoy your holiday season. Show some love for the people that you care about. And check back in with me in a couple of days. Until then, peace. Plants.