Nothing’s gadget renaissance, and our favorite TV remotes

Today on the flagship podcast of sustainable supply chain economics: 03:27 - CEO of Nothing Carl Pei sits down with The Verge’s David Pierce to discuss the new Phone 2, Carl’s vision for the company, his thoughts on AI, foldables, VR, and much more. Nothing Phone 2 review: the vibes abide Nothing CEO Carl Pei on the Phone 2, AI, and the future of gadgets (video version of interview here) 50:02 - Later, Vergecast producers Andru Marino and Liam James debate with David the best and worst TV remotes, and what makes a good remote design. Watch the YouTube version to see all the remotes we talk about. 3 Kinds of Simplicity :: UXmatters Philips Design - Simplifying TV remote (UX Case Study) 1:25:19 - Keep listening for the Vergecast Hotline question of the week. Email us at [email protected] or call us at 866-VERGE11, we love hearing from you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02David Pierce?

  Welcome to The Vergecast, the flagship podcast of sustainable supply chain economics. I'm your friend David Pierce, and I am currently packing up to go on vacation. I'm off next week, and we're gonna go visit some family and spend some time relaxing, so I'm getting everything ready. I don't know if you're like me in this way, but I realized for the first time in getting ready for this trip, that my packing strategy is to basically just randomly heave a bunch of shirts and pants into a bag without even looking at it, and then spend three days carefully curating all of my technology. I might have my priorities wrong here. I have my laptop, I have my phone, an iPad, and a Kindle, all of which I'm gonna spend the next several days making sure are perfectly charged.

• 0:44David Pierce?

  The iPad has like 9,000 hours of TV and movies downloaded, even though I'm driving and I have no idea when I'll watch them. But anyway, I did that, and they're there now. I bought three new books, in addition to the several dozen I already own that I haven't read yet. I have chargers and backup chargers with me. I even have an SD card reader in this little bag here, despite the fact that nothing I'm bringing uses an SD card. I have wired headphones, I have wireless headphones, and I have a pair of Bose headphones that is both wired and wireless. I might have a problem, y'all. But I guess if our car breaks down, and we have to spend an entire day waiting and watching all of season two of The Bear on Hulu when there's no service, I guess I'm good to go? So, there's that.

• 1:29David Pierce?

  Anyway, I have a lot of stuff left to do somehow. It's gonna be a scene. Anyway, we have a great show for you today. First, we're gonna spend some time with Carl Pei, the CEO of Nothing, talking about the Nothing Phone 2, but mostly talking about the tech business in general, and why it's so hard to build great hardware. Then, we are going to finally get on the mics and hash out a debate that The Vergecast team has been having for months. What makes a great TV remote? And which one is the best one? All that's coming up in just a second, but first, I gotta run upstairs and find my USB-C to HDMI cable, because I always bring that with me in case, I don't know, I guess I need to connect my computer to my TV and do a slideshow or something. I realize now this is insane, but this is the life I've chosen.

• 2:14David Pierce?

  This is The Vergecast. We'll be right back.

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• 3:19David Pierce?

  All right, we're back. Everything's charging. All my cables are packed. I'm going to crush this vacation. So we are already in the thick of phone season. It's mid-July and it is just coming fast. Google launched the Pixel Fold the other week. Samsung has new foldables and flippables coming later this month. We're going to get new stuff from Apple in September. The new Zen phone is pretty good. It's all happening really fast. But one of the most interesting phones of the year to me is the Nothing Phone 2.

• 3:47Speaker 03

  Introducing Phone 2. Meet the glyph interface. A more thoughtful way to interact with a smartphone, where lights on the back of your device tell you all you need to know.

• 3:57David Pierce?

  Nothing is one of the few startups, true startups, trying to make it in the phone business and has been doing some pretty interesting stuff over the last couple of years. The Verge's Allison Johnson reviewed the Phone 2. I'll link to it in the show notes. It's a great review. And her takeaway was essentially that it's a good phone with some strong opinions about how phones should work and how you feel about those opinions, like a monochrome UI and that light up interface on the back that can alert you when your phone is face down. And Nothing's cool. Transparent, design language, all that stuff will determine how you feel about the phone. Otherwise, it's just a good phone. And actually, that's the kind of stuff I want to talk about today. Nothing, specifically its CEO Carl Pei, has spent the last couple of years

• 4:41David Pierce?

  running around talking about how tech is boring and the world needs more exciting tech companies and how nothing is going to bring back the glory days of gadgets. And then it makes the pretty good smartphone. I just have trouble squaring those two things sometimes. So, right around the launch of the phone two, I brought Carl into the studio to talk about Nothing, the company, the phone two, his thoughts on everything from gadgets to AI to AR glasses, and what it really takes to make it in the phone biz. I thought it was fascinating, so let's get into it.

• 5:14David Pierce?

  Carl Pei, welcome to the Vergecast.

• 5:15Speaker 04

  Thanks for having me.

• 5:16David Pierce?

  We've been trying to do this forever.

• 5:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:17David Pierce?

  This is very exciting.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  We said, um, seven years, right?

• 5:20David Pierce?

  Yeah, god, several lifetimes ago.

• 5:22Speaker 04

  Several lifetimes ago.

• 5:23David Pierce?

  So, you just launched a phone.

• 5:25Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 5:25David Pierce?

  Congrats.

• 5:26Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 5:26David Pierce?

  You're, you're like, at the end of true chaos, hopefully, of launching a phone.

• 5:31Speaker 04

  There's still a lot of work.

• 5:32David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 5:33Speaker 04

  In the next couple of weeks, but, um, yeah, at least we've, we've launched the phone now.

• 5:37David Pierce?

  That's good. And I want to get into that. We both have the phone sitting here and we're going to talk about it a little bit. Yours looks more like a stormtrooper than mine, which is very cool. But you've never been on the show and I want to talk about Nothing as a thing. And sort of you, you launched this company a few years ago with this like big grand theory about the state of technology. And I have lots of questions about it. I guess maybe the easiest place to start is just like, I, I've sort of heard this mantra in a bunch of different forms, but how do you talk about it now? Like, what, what does Nothing exist to do?

• 6:03Speaker 04

  We're trying to make tech more fun again because I think a lot of people can resonate with this. But personally, when I was young, I was super excited about tech. I felt really inspired both on the hardware side and the software side. When I was younger, Apple used to have these epic product launches that, I grew up in Europe, so I had to stay up over the night to watch. And it was worth it because each product was such a big leap forward compared to the last one. And it just made you feel like... Everything was heading towards a really exciting trajectory. And it was also the time where a lot of these social media and consumer internet companies were being created. So you had a lot of innovation on hardware, but also a lot of innovation on software and services.

• 6:45Speaker 04

  So it felt like back then, you know, 10 years ago, society as a whole was way more optimistic about where technology was going. But in the last couple of years, that sentiment, at least for me, has pretty much disappeared. And when we speak to other people, be it consumers or investors, I think it kind of resonates. So we're thinking like, how can we kind of get back to that original state where things just felt like it was getting better and better? And hopefully also inspire others to be a part of this journey, be it our community or even our competitors. So I guess that's why we started this.

• 7:21David Pierce?

  I like the theory of that a lot. And I think that change you're describing is something we talk about a lot on the show. And I think there are sort of two responses I have to that idea. And one is that I think one thing that has happened in the last 10 years is that all those things became super successful, to the point where now, like, most people's smartphones are not exciting, right? Like, they're appliances. And I think to some extent, that's fine. Like, they do a lot of things really well. They're very successful. But we got past the point of being really excited about every single spec upgrade because they don't matter that much.

• 7:52Speaker 04

  The marginal utility is not that high.

• 7:54David Pierce?

  Yeah, and I think you can have interesting debates about whether that is a total lack of imagination and innovation, or it's just the fact that everybody got phones, we all got used to them, and that's fine. And like, are phones fridges or washing machines now? Like, maybe. And then I think the other thing that happened is, a lot of that stuff we were really optimistic about turned out to have huge problems. Some of which we should have known going in, some of which we didn't know going in. But like, we've been talking a lot about this with Instagram threads, this like, beautiful world we used to live in, where you could just like, talk to all your friends on Facebook, before we all knew all of the costs that came from that. And so part of what I wonder, and I suspect you spend time thinking about, is like, is that era of how we felt about technology ever going to come back?

• 8:39David Pierce?

  Or do we just know things now we didn't then? And our experience of it has sort of changed that forever?

• 8:45Speaker 04

  I don't think anything is forever. And I think if you zoom out and look at history, history kind of ebbs and flows. So I think there will be kind of periods in history where technology doesn't advance that much, and there will be other periods where a lot is happening. I think we're in one of those slow periods. But what you said, if you look at it from the company's perspective, I think a lot of innovation happened when there were many small and medium-sized companies trying to compete with each other. And I think one of the reasons why we feel like innovation has slowed down is because a lot of these companies have won already. They've become really big. They have a very defined business model, a very defined type of consumer, and it works. So why risk it with something new?

• 9:28Speaker 04

  At the same time, it feels like they've all created really strong moats. So it's really hard for a new entrant to get in. We talked about the fact that we're launching our second phone. There's a bunch of people that tried to make smartphones in the last 10 years who never got around to launching their second phone.

• 9:43David Pierce?

  Or even their first phone, in a lot of cases. I have a lot of prototypes that never hit the market, sitting in my basement somewhere.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  So the barrier to entry is just way too high for smaller companies to come in, I think. So I think that from the company's side, that's kind of what we're seeing. These small companies got really big, and they built these moats. I think we're probably one of the only smaller companies that's able to experiment and try our own ideas, because we have accumulated the right type of resource, competence, to at least give it an honest shot.

• 10:13David Pierce?

  That's fair. And I think, to some extent, I would imagine, coming out of what you were doing at OnePlus, which is like a small thing inside of a large company with lots of infrastructure and lots of backing resources, you were sort of a startup without all the scary cliffs of being a startup in a lot of ways. Then you should just show up on your own, and you're like, okay, now it's just like me and a dream. And I was, in preparing for this, was like, listening to other interviews and stuff that you've done. And you've basically talked about just like walking into factories, being like, please, please build my phone. And all these companies were like, we've built other people's phones, and they died, and those companies went out of business. And like, there are a million failed, really good Kickstarter ideas out there. Are you sure you're not just like totally insane to try this?

• 10:58David Pierce?

  Is there a possibility that you are?

• 11:00Speaker 04

  I think we underestimated how hard it would be. Maybe that was a good thing. We're kind of, like you said, in more of a protected environment. Coming out in the real world is a lot more difficult. When we were approaching the factories in the beginning... As you say, a lot of them have been burned before by other entrepreneurs even more with more resources than than us. And the factories got a lot smarter now because before the factory took all the risk. So they would procure all the components and they would make everything. And if the entrepreneur or the company couldn't sell the product, the factory would be sitting on everything. But with us, when they eventually agreed to work with us, which they didn't in the beginning, we had to pay everything, not even upfront, but months in advance of getting the product. So it got much harder from a funding perspective and a cash flow perspective for us compared

• 11:44Speaker 04

  to the guys before because the supply chain had just lost so much money with these other startups in the past.

• 11:52David Pierce?

  And in thinking about like, how do we push all this stuff into the future? I feel like there's a version of nothing where you tried to do something super different and you ended up doing like what Humane is doing with the AI pin or what Snap did with Spectacles a bunch of years ago. And you're like, we think we know what's next and we're gonna, we're gonna try to build it in public and get everybody really excited and move everybody into the future. You decided to go with headphones and smartphones, which I think you could argue are two of the most like mature mainstream, hard to crack markets that exist.

• 12:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:27David Pierce?

  Why, if the goal is like make technology exciting again, why build those things?

• 12:32Speaker 04

  I think you have to exist to be able to make things more exciting. I think of it as kind of like the Apple analogy. So Apple started with computers, but computers is not what made Apple really big. The iPod was what made Apple really big. And then they had successes with iPhone and other products after that. I think our entry into the smartphone industry is similar to Apple's entry into the computer industry. It's a mature market. Through being different, we can find our group of consumers and eventually build a business that is self-sustaining. We can make some profits and then we can take those profits and reinvest those into imagining what a future form factor could be. I think we need that iPod moment in the future as well.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  But if we started with that really crazy idea, what if it didn't have product market fit? Then, you know, we don't have an opportunity to try and create the future anymore.

• 13:23David Pierce?

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting analogy, right? Because I do think the computer market was substantially less mature in the seventies when Apple came in than the smartphone market is now, which I think just like kind of makes that road for you even harder in a lot of ways. It's like there was no sort of Apple of the computer industry at that time. But the thing that's interesting is like, I think about sort of what is, what is at the point right now that the MP3 market was when the iPod came out? And it's like, there really isn't one? I kind of feel like the closest thing is maybe headsets in the sense that like some exist, but it's pretty clear that nothing has gotten it right. But I also think we're like several massive technical breakthroughs from being able to make, you know, the iPod of headsets or whatever. I don't think the Vision Pro is that thing.

• 14:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:07David Pierce?

  And so it's, it's just sort of a tricky moment where it does feel like your only options are things we're totally not ready for.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 14:15David Pierce?

  Or things that may be kind of at the other side of the curve of being super, super exciting to everybody.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think our strategy is to start with really mature categories that are big. So for smartphones, over a billion are sold every year. For wireless headphones, over 300 million are sold every year.

• 14:30David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  And try and be different there and at least carve out a niche for ourselves and then gradually take it step by step to a more, more innovative part of the curve.

• 14:40David Pierce?

  So you don't have to win the phone market. You just have to get enough of the phone market to put yourself in a position to win the next thing.

• 14:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think, you know, Apple and the computer industry, although dynamics were not exactly the same, but today they're still kind of not a dominating player in terms of market share. I don't think that we're going to be a dominating player if we're around in 10 years in smartphones. I think the, like the turning point will be a new form factor, definitely.

• 15:04David Pierce?

  Is it glasses?

• 15:06Speaker 04

  You know, I've been thinking a lot about software. I think. A lot of the smartest people, they went on to making apps. So in 2008, the App Store was invented. I think that was like the major, the last major innovation in mobile OS. Before the App Store, whatever features you got with the phone were the features you had throughout the entire lifecycle, unless you sideloaded something. After the App Store, you could basically extend your phone with infinite capability, like whatever other people could dream up, you could download. So I think a lot of the smart people, they went on to making apps around 2008. And then it got to a point where people were just optimizing for time spent or trying to make whatever metric was important to them. And I think the major platforms like Apple App Store, they're bought into this because whenever the app developers make money, they also make money.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  So I think there's a vested interest in not do that much on the, on the mobile OS side. Maybe that's where we, you know, should be exploring what, what could be done.

• 15:59David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 16:00Speaker 04

  Like one of the things we've done with the phone too, is we feel like apps have gotten too powerful. Like, um, you know, sometimes I know I have to do something on my phone, work related. So I unlock my phone, I go into TikTok or Instagram, I scroll for, I just wanted to scroll for like one minute, see what's, what's new, what notifications are important, but I actually just end up scrolling for five minutes and then I forgot what, what my original task was. So we feel like apps have gotten too powerful. And with the phone two, both on the hardware side with the glyph, but also on the software side, we're trying to at least give users options to take some of that power back.

• 16:36David Pierce?

  I mean, now you're just bringing up my like pet favorite thing to talk about. I've been obsessed with this world of these like slightly dumber smartphones for forever. The, the light phone and there was the, the punked a few years ago. And this idea about like, what if you had a phone that did all the things you needed it to, but didn't take over your entire life, which I think is a really good thing. And I think a lot of people intellectually want that. But I think figuring out how to make the case for what amounts to like a slightly worse smartphone is really complicated.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  It is.

• 17:03David Pierce?

  And you're better at marketing in this space than most. And I think even for you, that story is going to be hard to tell. Like we are going to make it harder for you to find the Instagram icon, because that's good for you. And I think that's right. And I just, I don't know how to get over that bridge.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  I think it's, um, going against human nature. Really difficult.

• 17:20David Pierce?

  And tens of thousands of engineers who have spent the last decade building really, really good apps that I am sort of drawn to spend hours in all day.

• 17:27Speaker 04

  So I think we got to start with a niche. I think there's a certain type of consumer out there who's who really resonates with features like this. It's really gonna be hard to convince the mass to adopt something like this. It's hard to go against human nature. Like, we're hardwired to wanna use things that are addictive. So I think it's it's it's one step, but it's not gonna take us to the to the mainstream, definitely.

• 17:48David Pierce?

  Yeah, that's fair. So tell me about the phone two. So by the time this comes out, the reviews will be out, a lot of folks will have seen it. But I think, based on kind of what I've heard and what you said in the launch and stuff, you you learned a lot from the phone one. Building phones is hard. You you got better at it, you got a better team, you've like convinced some of these partners that you're actually doing this for real and you're not just gonna leave them in the lurch with a bunch of unused product. And you're in a position where you can like push a little harder towards the stuff you wanna do. So when you look at the phone two, where does that most show up? What is the like, you're like, this is now the stuff we're able to do because we're better at this now?

• 18:24Speaker 04

  So if you look at the hardware design or the hardware side, we had the glyph interface with the phone one. We got a lot of negative feedback on the from comments on the internet saying it's like a gimmick.

• 18:34David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 18:34Speaker 04

  It's just a nice phone with some funky lights on the back, but it's not really useful. It wasn't that we didn't have those ideas of how to make it useful and what features it should have, we just didn't have the engineering capability to deliver all of that. So now with the phone two, on the glyph interface side, there's a whole lot of features. There's a timer, there's a progress bar, so when you're like waiting for your food delivery or waiting for a Uber, you can see where it is. We created a glyph composer, so you can have fun and kind of create your own glyph segment, share it with your friends, or working with artists like Swedish House Mafia to make sound packs.

• 19:09David Pierce?

  Nice.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, so it's just more fun. So a lot more on the utility, but a lot more fun as well.

• 19:15David Pierce?

  That reminds me of, I don't even know if this is still a thing, but for a while you could customize the vibration patterns on certain phones so that like if you had it in your pocket and it was like, oh, if my wife is calling, it does sort of three quick pulses. And if it's anybody else, it's like two long pulses. And I remember spending so much time trying to dial that in only to discover that I could never get it quite right and could never remember what was what. But I feel like the glyph thing kind of vibes with me in that same way.

• 19:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think we should simplify it, right? So now we also introduced something we call essential glyphs. So for things that are really essential for you, it's just always on. It doesn't flash and go away. So you could assign this one to somebody important as an example. So I think that's easier to to recognize than some vibration or a light that flashes and disappears. So the hardware side, I think glyph is a lot more useful. I know that the creativity within our company cannot be compared to the creativity of the entire internet. So we're creating SDK for this interface. Other app developers can also tap in and and it'll be exciting to see what they build with this.

• 20:17David Pierce?

  Yeah, I noticed in using it, there's definitely, like you can tell the team is bigger. There's just more stuff going on on the phone than there was before. It feels like you've you've touched more of the menus, you've touched more of the icons, there's more going on kind of in the nothing OS. People built new widgets. It's just like there was just human power to build some of this up. But it does make me wonder, not to keep going back to the Apple analogy, but like the thing Apple did very early on that worked out really, really well for Apple was basically try to own as much of the thing as it possibly could. And you're in a position with smartphones where that's very hard. Like building your own OS right now is is suicide. Like it just it just is. If you if you weren't running Android, people would be like, that's stupid and just move on with their life.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  They need apps.

• 20:56David Pierce?

  Right. And and so you're in this position where there is at some point sort of a wall on how much you can do, I would think, in part because apps are made to run on specific kinds of devices with specific sized screens with specific kinds of resolutions. Like, how far do you feel like you can push in the smartphone world before you either like lose users or just build something nobody wants?

• 21:19Speaker 04

  I think taking a step by step approach and reacting to user feedback for every generation, we could probably do something really interesting.

• 21:25David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 21:26Speaker 04

  And wait for that leapfrog moment. You mentioned that it's uh, our hands are kind of tied, right? On multiple fronts. And even within Android, if you look at the market share globally, but in particular in the US, like iOS is creeping up year on year. I think today is already, in general population of the US, it's like 55% iOS already.

• 21:48David Pierce?

  And climbing pretty fast.

• 21:49Speaker 04

  And climbing. And for people under 18, it's like 90%. So what happens when these people grow up? I mean, is Android still gonna be around? So that's something that, you know, really worries us as well. Like, if we're able to be successful with the next few generations of products, but at the same time, if the door for Android is slowly closing, then what do we have to build a company on?

• 22:09David Pierce?

  Right. So, but the thing I take away from that is like, I swear, the whole reason for the iOS thing is just blue bubbles. Like, it's just, it's just blue bubbles. And it's like, there are people out there who it's like, you know, what's the, what's the biggest turnoff in a possible dating partner? And people like green bubbles. And it's like, that is like objectively insane, but this is the world we live in. Are there blue bubbly things you feel like you can do in this space? Without being sort of the dominant player? Like, if I'm, if you're, if you're running Samsung, you have some moves, right? There, you can, you can start to sort of enclose the ecosystem in some interesting ways. You're too small to do that right now in, in a way that would sort of blow up. Maybe that changes over time, but are there, do you have moves like that?

• 22:49Speaker 04

  My view on this is that, you know, Apple, they used to really compete on making the best product, the best user experience, the best software, the best hardware, the best interplay between hardware and software. But today, they build so many moats that are beyond that.

• 23:03David Pierce?

  Right.

• 23:03Speaker 04

  So they don't have to compete as hard on pure product, because they have these blue bubble moats. And ultimately, that's gonna be really bad for the consumer, because there's just gonna be fewer and fewer options. If you look at our industry, there's fewer and fewer brands over time. It's getting more and more consolidated, and Apple is slowly gaining market share every single year. So I think ultimately, the only way around this is if the government steps in. And I've seen in Europe that things are already happening with the USB-C standard, but also, I think next year... The protocol iMessage has to be opened up in Europe, based on my understanding, but I'm not sure how they're gonna phase it. And I'm sure Apple is gonna try and make it difficult.

• 23:44David Pierce?

  That's gonna get messier before it gets better, I think.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  I think so as well. So what can we do? We can wait. We can communicate on kind of how unfair some of the practices are and how it's really hard to break in and innovate in this market. We can probably not, I mean, if we build our own social features, it's probably not gonna do that much, right? Because our user base is still quite small. Maybe we can do some really naughty stuff like reverse engineer iMessage and have support on our phones.

• 24:11David Pierce?

  Sure. I mean, but even that, it's sort of an interesting thing to think about how to sequence, right? Because if you wait until you're huge to build that stuff, you've kind of missed a chance to bring people along with you. But if you do it at the beginning, it's gonna be so sort of limited in its utility. But I just think about like, I mostly use an iPhone and my wife mostly uses a Pixel. And there's just a series of things that are more annoying in our relationship as a result. And so I'm at a point now where it's like, one of us is gonna switch phones because it's just gonna make life easier for us to like, send each other pictures.

• 24:42Speaker 04

  Airdrop, right?

• 24:42David Pierce?

  Because trying to send pictures between devices is awful when you're on different platforms.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  So what do you guys do now? Email or?

• 24:48David Pierce?

  She just texts me everything, links, and if the videos come in, like tiny little postage stamps. I mean, it's bad. It's a crappy system. We have shared Google Photos, albums that kind of work. It's just not good, is the point. And so I think, for me, it's like, okay, if I go out and buy us the same thing, if I'm buying two Nothing phones, should that be better than if she has a Pixel and I have a Nothing phone?

• 25:11Speaker 04

  Today, it's probably the same.

• 25:13David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 25:13Speaker 04

  Android is also building interoperability between Android devices. So instead of Airdrop, Android has something called Nearby Share.

• 25:19David Pierce?

  Right.

• 25:19Speaker 04

  It works in a similar way. I don't think it's the right time yet to make the experience between Nothing devices way better than Nothing and other Android devices.

• 25:27David Pierce?

  Okay, that's fair. I think that's probably right. And it does seem like Android has at least gotten better enough in that regard. That you're not, you're not missing too too much. The iOS to Android interplay sucks really bad.

• 25:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:38David Pierce?

  But with things like RCS and Nearby Share and that kind of stuff, it seems like the blue bubbles of Android at least are coming along a little bit.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  I don't think it's enough.

• 25:46David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 25:47Speaker 04

  It's not stopping the market share increase or the market share decrease, right? So it's something that's kind of worrying, but you know, hopefully something good happens.

• 25:55David Pierce?

  What do you make of that? Like the looking at the fact that especially in the US, the iPhone is just dominant. Like what what's the takeaway there? Is it just that Apple is better at marketing this than everybody?

• 26:05Speaker 04

  I think Apple had the best product. And now that they built the moats, they can't focus less on innovating on the product. They can just keep defending their their pie. So that's my take. So if we want innovation to speed up again, somebody has to do something about all these moats. Because like messaging is almost like infrastructure. Like, how can you give monopoly to one company? File sharing is kind of like basic infrastructure. Would you give water system or like water plumbing and electricity to one company? I don't know, but that's kind of what's what's happening.

• 26:37David Pierce?

  Yeah. Do you buy that hardware can kind of lead that? Because I think a lot of it also is, I think, the app ecosystem on iOS is pretty definitively better than on Android. But I think like I remember talking to the Pixel team years ago when they were starting the Pixel. And one of the things that they said is we need to make what we believe is like a truly terrific Android device to make developers excited to build stuff for this device. And I think to some extent that has worked. And that's what they've tried to do with Chromebooks is what they've tried to do with tablets and kind of to, you know, mixed effect on some of those. But you've been in this business a long time. Do you buy the idea that like if you make really great hardware, you can get people to kind of want to be part of it? I guess the the same question goes for like the Glyph interface.

• 27:17Speaker 04

  I think with scale.

• 27:18David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  Great hardware and a lot of scale because the app developers, they're a lot of them are also businesses. So they have to figure out the ROI. If I invest engineering resource, am I going to make the money back or not? So it's easier when you have scale. I think we're lucky because we have a very because we're quite small. So we have a very enthusiastic community. They're very technical. So there'll be a lot of kind of hacking going on as we release SDK. Maybe something interesting comes out of that.

• 27:42David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 04

  But I don't expect the the metas or, you know, the largest tech companies in the world to use our Glyph SDK.

• 27:49David Pierce?

  Is the only way to do that to just eventually get so big they can't ignore you? That's the only move?

• 27:53Speaker 04

  That's the only way, I think.

• 27:54David Pierce?

  You don't think you can like sneak one into into Adam Mosseri's office and be like, hey, here's a here's a cool thing that might work for Instagram?

• 28:01Speaker 04

  I think he might really love the product, but it still doesn't make sense for him to commit resources to doing anything at this moment, unless it can really benefit his product somehow.

• 28:10David Pierce?

  That's fair. I can understand that. Adam? Build it if you're listening. I don't know what it would do, but every time you get an Instagram, just glyphs everywhere. All right, we're gonna take a break, but we have lots more to talk about, including what comes after phones. We'll be right back.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 5:55 in 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 28:59Speaker 02

  When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 29:33David Pierce?

  All right, we're back with Carl Pay, the CEO of Nothing. Talk to me about price, because I think this is something you've been through now at a couple of different companies, trying to figure out, how do I sell good stuff at the lowest possible price? And you're kind of doing the same thing you did at OnePlus, which is like, one of the things that most impressed people about the phone one was how cheap it was. And I think with this next one, the phone is, seems to be significantly better, but also significantly more expensive. It's gone from $399 to $599. How do you balance making a phone at the cheapest possible price with trying to do all this other stuff you're trying to do?

• 30:05Speaker 04

  It's quite complicated. We can't just think about what consumers are gonna think, although consumers are the most important ones. We also have to think about the suppliers because our industry doesn't really support small companies. It just costs like thirty to fifty million dollars for each new product we develop.

• 30:24David Pierce?

  Wow.

• 30:24Speaker 04

  So if we sell one unit, it's still that amount of money. If we sell a million units, it's still that amount of money.

• 30:29David Pierce?

  Right.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  So we just have to reach scale. And it also, it's quite costly for our factories and our suppliers to work with us. So unless they feel like we can become a big company one day, it doesn't make sense to collaborate. So in the beginning with the phone one, we had to sacrifice and make it a loss leader just to get to some level of volume that's enticing for for a supply chain to wanna work with us.

• 30:53David Pierce?

  So at that point, it's actually more useful to be sort of cool and zeitgeisty than it is to be per unit profitable in that first run?

• 31:01Speaker 04

  We need to get the volumes up.

• 31:02David Pierce?

  Sure.

• 31:03Speaker 04

  That's like the key.

• 31:04David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  So but as a company, we can't keep making a loss on everything we sell.

• 31:08David Pierce?

  Sure.

• 31:09Speaker 04

  So over time, we have to become profitable and we-

• 31:11David Pierce?

  We should've just made the phone fifty bucks. You would've sold a ton of them. It would've been great.

• 31:13Speaker 04

  Exactly. And would've been bankrupt by now. So it's about finding the right balance. So with the phone two, we're not losing money on every device sold. We're making a small margin, but after all the costs, this year, we're still gonna lose quite a bit of money. But we have to make that step so that, you know, eventually, maybe next year or the year after, we can break even. The economy right now is not the best. So funding, although it's available, it's much harder than before. So we gotta try and run a more, get to profitability quicker than before.

• 31:45David Pierce?

  Okay. I have no evidence for this, and it's possible I'm totally wrong, and I hope you tell me if I am. But it seems to me that especially in the US, six hundred dollars is kind of an awkward price for a phone. Like, I almost think it's easier in some ways to make the case for like an eight or nine hundred dollar phone than it is for a six hundred dollar phone. Because especially in the US where people are paying it off over the course of a couple of years, it's a couple of dollars a month, people don't really notice. But then if you say, okay, I can buy the iPhone for a thousand dollars, right? That is just sort of the assumed price of a very good phone. You come in and say- No, we've made a very good phone for $600. And there's just a thing that lodges in people's brains that's like, well, what's the catch? And I think, right, if it's like, if it's $200, I understand that I'm making trade-offs and I'm clearly a cost-conscious person.

• 32:27David Pierce?

  But you get to this middle ground, and I think lots of companies have found this in the US, that the price sensitivity is really different here. And so it's like, at some point, if you're gonna, if you're gonna charge $600, you might as well just charge $900.

• 32:39Speaker 04

  The market is like a barbell shaped.

• 32:41David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 04

  So you got a lot of volume at the low end and a lot of volume at the high end. But I think that's like when you're looking at the market as a whole, like the general market in the US looks like that. However, we're not catering to the general market today. We're not even available for sale inside of the carrier stores.

• 32:56David Pierce?

  Sure.

• 32:57Speaker 04

  I think the first step to our entrance into the US is we got to target to the tech enthusiasts.

• 33:04David Pierce?

  Who are even less price sensitive. These are the people who are out there buying $1,800 crappy foldable phones.

• 33:09Speaker 04

  I think a lot of them actually look at what you get and what you pay, and can be really smart about that. So at least that group of people are gonna be, I think it's gonna, this phone is gonna speak to them. I think US is really, really complicated as a market. We gotta take a step-by-step approach. Start by building a loyal fan base, people really knowledgeable, with people really knowledgeable about technology, have their endorsement first. You know, collaborate with them to make the product really, really good before we go to the next step. You know, US is a, it's like one of the freest economies in the world, but actually our industry in the US, it's one of the most difficult ones.

• 33:42David Pierce?

  It's a disaster.

• 33:42Speaker 04

  To break into, like, the barrier to entry is so high. There's basically only three sales channels, right, the three carriers, the three big carriers. And it just makes it a lot more complicated than compared to other markets where everything is unlocked. When, when everything is unlocked, you can just speak to the consumer. And as long as you have a great product and a, a brand that consumers love, that's all you need to worry about. But here, it's, it's way more complicated.

• 34:06David Pierce?

  Yeah, I mean, that sort of mid-range phone graveyard is littered with phones who thought they could crack unlocked phones in the US, and they just were all wrong. It's really hard to do.

• 34:16Speaker 04

  And then you see the market share for iPhone keep increasing as well.

• 34:19David Pierce?

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, people like walk into stores and say, what should I buy? And they say, here's the new version of your old phone. And that's, in the US especially, that just is what happens. They're like, I had a Samsung phone, or I had an iPhone. And you use your phone until it dies, and then you upgrade to whatever the newest one of those things is. And breaking that chain strikes me as maybe the hardest challenge of breaking into the US.

• 34:43Speaker 04

  Yeah, I've spoken to carriers in the US. It's not that we can't be arranged, but I think it's just not the right timing. But something that came out of those conversations was that they're also really worried about the situation, because they're seeing, you know, after these big launches, they would measure the footfall into their stores. And now the footfall is getting less and less after the launches, because there's not much new to go and check out in person anymore.

• 35:07David Pierce?

  Yeah. I mean, that tracks. I mean, we even see that covering these things, like the sort of day of enthusiasm for one of these new devices is definitely not what it once was.

• 35:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, so hopefully we can do something about it. But it'll take a bit of time.

• 35:19David Pierce?

  Yeah, that's fair. So and speaking of that, actually, one of the things I've heard you talk a bunch about is thinking about how to do all this stuff over time, right? You clearly have a long roadmap. You didn't answer my question about glasses, so I'm gonna make you answer my question about glasses here at some point. But you also are in a position of you don't have unlimited money. You're not a trillion-dollar company that can just pour money into the metaverse until it becomes a thing. You have a small number of shots at this in a pretty real way. Like, I've talked to a lot of companies over the year who are like, we got one hardware order wrong, because it didn't launch to as much excitement as we hoped, and it bankrupted the company, and that was it. We ended up with a warehouse full of phones and no company. How do you square those two things? You're

• 36:01David Pierce?

  like, okay, this is the thing that gets us to the thing. We want to be big. We have this long roadmap, but we also have to keep being an ongoing concern to get there.

• 36:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, you kind of have to have a dream, but you have to be very practical in reaching it. I think this business is one of the most challenging ones to build, because there's just so many things you got to think about. You got to think about everything from supply chain. To manufacturing, to hardware engineering, software engineering, hardware design, software design, sales, marketing, distribution around the world. It's different in every country. Marketing is different in every country than supporting the products, software updates, and repairing the products when they're broken. So the chain, the value chain is just so long compared to if we're just making an app.

• 36:47David Pierce?

  Right.

• 36:48Speaker 04

  It'll be much, much simpler.

• 36:49David Pierce?

  Sure.

• 36:50Speaker 04

  So I think.

• 36:51David Pierce?

  Or the reverse, like the, one of the companies I know you've thought about in building this company is Tesla. And I think the smart thing Tesla did was say, our first car is going to cost $250,000. We're not going to sell very many of them, but we're going to make a bunch of money on the ones that we do sell, and that's going to start to pay as we kind of trickle down. So for you, that, I don't know, you could have started with like a foldable phone that cost $2,000. And some people would have bought it, some people would have not bought it, and then you can sort of slowly scale up. But you tried to do kind of the, a small version of the mainstream thing.

• 37:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:22David Pierce?

  From the very beginning.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  I thought about the Tesla model, but I think Tesla was so ahead of its time against their competitors.

• 37:27David Pierce?

  That's fair.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  To make an electric vehicle. A foldable phone does not have the same head start as.

• 37:33David Pierce?

  That's fair. You would have had to launch that in like 2012, and then you would have.

• 37:37Speaker 04

  And also, the utility of electric cars is so easy to understand versus a foldable phone, I think.

• 37:42David Pierce?

  That's fair.

• 37:43Speaker 04

  So maybe when we go to our iPod moment, that's where we start from the high end. I don't know.

• 37:50David Pierce?

  Yeah. No, that's, that's fair. And I think, I just think that pace is really interesting. And we've seen so many companies, like Snap has been going through this in a big way, where they, they started with spectacles. And like, here's the road to true augmented reality. We think we're going to get there. And that road has gotten weirder and longer than anybody expected, and has been really hard for that company. And Meta's going through the same thing with Oculus. Like, that's getting better, but not as quickly as we would hope. Apple's having trouble with Division Pro. It's like, these roads are long and complicated, and those are companies, those are like public companies with billions of dollars to lose on this problem.

• 38:20Speaker 04

  It's a cliche, but I mean, timing is key. So we're trying to do the right thing at the right time.

• 38:24David Pierce?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 04

  And have a more patient approach.

• 38:27David Pierce?

  So speaking of that, what do you look at right now? It feels like we're in this crazy moment of change. All anybody talks about is AI. Wearables are like kind of a thing. Glasses are becoming the thing. Like, what's, what do you make of the transition we're in right now?

• 38:41Speaker 04

  I think for us, like at where we're, we are, what's really important is to get to profitability. If we don't, then there's a risk.

• 38:49David Pierce?

  You're talking like a big company here. You're like, we have to be fiscally responsible.

• 38:52Speaker 04

  Because if we are not profitable, then we don't have the opportunity to build the next thing. And that's, that's a reality. A lot of these big companies, they have a lot of free cash flow. Like Google and Meta, they make a lot of money on ads. So they can use that business to kind of subsidize or take, take larger risks elsewhere. We don't have that. So we need to make sure we're at least safe and we survive. And then we can figure out the, the really interesting products.

• 39:15David Pierce?

  Is that hard for you as the CEO to move sort of deliberately in that sense? Because I would think also, if you're sitting there thinking like, okay, we, here is the, the thing that is going to make us the company we want to be. To not just pour everything into racing there as quickly as you possibly could and actually be sort of methodical on the way. Seems like it would be a really hard thing to stay disciplined about over time.

• 39:38Speaker 04

  There's no other option. I mean, it's like a game with no other, other path. So I think it's, it's quite easy to, to be on this path. Apart from reaching profitability, I think it's really important to build a really solid team and really solid processes so we can run like clockwork for when that opportunity comes. It'll be much more, it'll be much easier for us to capture the opportunity. It's like during winter, let's train our body to be really strong so that when summer comes, when spring, when spring comes, we can run really quickly.

• 40:06David Pierce?

  So do you think the phone keeps being the thing for a long time? Both for you and kind of for the world?

• 40:11Speaker 04

  I think so.

• 40:12David Pierce?

  Yeah. Like, if you fast forward out five years from now, is the phone still the, the primary thing that everybody has with them all the time?

• 40:20Speaker 04

  A computing device made up of a large screen with some camera capability, I think is going to be the dominating form factor for a long time. People have said voice might be taking over or kind of immersion into virtual reality, but I think those are more like in addition to the main form factor. You can't get the same level of utility through just audio, or it doesn't feel that good to always be in a virtual environment. So I think this form factor will be really key. But I think maybe what happens on the OS side and the software side could change with all the improvements we're seeing in AI today.

• 40:56David Pierce?

  Yeah, what does that look like, do you think, as you cast out a few years? I think the thing I keep hearing is basically like, how do we take your phone out of being kind of an app machine, right? All your device does is provide a bunch of icons that you tap on to go into sort of individual worlds that are apps. And how do we kind of stitch it all back together in a way that makes more sense? And that's what like Alexa and Google Assistant were supposed to be. That's what we're talking about with the AI chatbots. Is that where you think we're headed, or do you see something else?

• 41:24Speaker 04

  I think so. I think there's not a lot of dumb people. I think everybody sees a similar kind of long-term vision, but everybody might have a different solution or hypothesis on how to get there. If we take one step back and just think about what it means to be a tech company, I think we need to either, not just our company, but the tech company community, we either have to enable consumers to do something they weren't able to do before, or we need to enable them to do it, something they can already do, but much faster or much cheaper. So I think that's, those are the guiding principles for how we evolve the OS as well. Like, okay, it's an app machine right now. It's an app launcher. That actually hasn't changed since the Symbian days, right?

• 42:05Speaker 04

  Symbian was also home screen or lock screen with a bunch of apps that you open, it took up the entire screen, you went back to home screen and launched something else. So I think if you want to remove that metaphor, you need to create a new metaphor that's way more efficient than before and easy to understand and easy to use.

• 42:22David Pierce?

  Do you have a theory about what that metaphor looks like? Is it just a text box? Like, is the chat GPT bot?

• 42:28Speaker 04

  I think some some text, not all text, probably some buttons, because writing is still slower than just pressing something, and some augmentation via via voice. I think it needs to slowly augment away the apps. Like, today, we're using some really simple apps, like mindless scrolling apps.

• 42:49David Pierce?

  Right.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  What if we wanted to accomplish more complicated tasks, like 3D modeling, or photo editing, or I don't know, what other use case there might be? It's actually quite difficult to learn how to use these new apps. Maybe we can just tell the phone what we need to do, and it would use those apps for us, without the apps even being visible in the foreground. I think that could be like enough utility to transition to a new metaphor.

• 43:13David Pierce?

  Yeah, I mean, that is like my favorite sort of UI game to play. It's the it's the plane ticket example, right? Like, I need to go to San Francisco, and I would like to buy a plane ticket to get to San Francisco. It turns out that doing like a back and forth of the voice assistant to do that is terrible. Doing a back and forth of the chatbot is terrible. But also, the way we have it now, where I'm in six apps and comparing a bunch of different things, like, also terrible. So this question of like, what is actually a better structure for doing something like that? Feels like sort of the next big question of the next, you know, five years. And there's a million versions of that, right? Where it's like, I just want to, I want to find something to watch on my TV, or I want to book a reservation to go to dinner. These things that we've all learned how to do in these really specific, not that good ways,

• 43:58David Pierce?

  we have to invent something better for. And like, the underlying tech is getting there.

• 44:01Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 44:01David Pierce?

  But the products don't seem to have quite solved it yet.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think everybody sees what the future needs to be. But I think the tricky, really tricky part is finding the right user interface that's easy to understand and can get adoption from consumers. You know, as we scale our, these products into the hands of millions of consumers, we also have a shot at implementing our version to see if it sticks or not. But who knows, right? Because the, I don't think it's the underlying technology that's going to be the most challenging part, because it's maturing. It's going to be the the right user interface.

• 44:31David Pierce?

  I have two more questions, then I'm gonna let you go. The first is, one of the things that has happened is that this sort of transparent design that you guys have bet really big on is starting to percolate out. There like Beats has a pair of headphones that looks suspiciously like somebody at Apple got ahold of the Nothing headphones and made those but for Beats. The transparent look is, you guys didn't invent it, but I think it restarted a bit as Nothing started to come out. You're gonna be in a position where, like any good startup, there are these big companies that have infinite resources and are gonna copy every cool thing you do really fast. How do you stay out in front of that?

• 45:09Speaker 04

  I think Apple won't, I mean, big companies won't really copy us because they already have a much more mass market consumer base. By copying us, they actually limit the amount of users that they can potentially talk to because our design is more niche.

• 45:24David Pierce?

  But on the flip side, they have 100,000 engineers and they can just throw 1,000 of them at any specific problem for a small number of people.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  And they can use their sub-brands, like what you just mentioned, to do something more niche. But actually also, committing to creating something transparent is actually, it's a lot of work. I don't know if you've seen some of my tweets on how we accomplished this design. I mean, it's very easy to make the glue look very ugly because everything is visible now. It's very easy in the manufacturing process for there to be dust. So it actually adds a lot to our costs of making the product transparent. I don't think it's something that, like these big companies with a lot of resource, of course, they can do it, but I don't know if the economics make sense for them to increase the cost of all their products just to make it look a little bit different. I think it's a good strategy for us because we need to find our niche and wedge ourselves into the market.

• 46:17Speaker 04

  So I'm not that worried about other people copying. Also, if our vision is to make tech fun again, if we can inspire other people to do more interesting things, that it's still okay. However, if they go straight for some of the user interfaces that we create, like for me, I see the glyph interface as a UI that we're trying to create. I think that's when we're gonna start defending ourselves.

• 46:39David Pierce?

  Okay. So do you think about it that ruthlessly in thinking about products? Like, is one of the sort of checkboxes for new products, is this something that these big companies can't or won't do?

• 46:50Speaker 04

  I don't think we're that, we weren't that structured about this. It just happened, but we realized throughout the process how difficult it was to actually make these products, which kind of alleviated our worry that people would aggressively go after this.

• 47:05David Pierce?

  Okay, all right, so last thing, and then I'll let you go. The phone two is, I think, in a lot of ways, a much better phone one. Is that the right path to be on in this space where you're trying to sort of build something like just keep getting a little better every year? Or do you think there is room for you in this industry to try something wildly different and new?

• 47:24Speaker 04

  I think both. I think if you keep getting a little bit better every half a year or every year, it really compounds, right? So you end up like...

• 47:33David Pierce?

  I don't know, I think, I think Apple would say that's what they've been doing for the last decade, and then you show up saying everybody's super boring because they all just get 10% better every year.

• 47:41Speaker 04

  I don't know, I feel like the changes between the phone one and phone two and how different it is, is a lot bigger than some of these bigger companies.

• 47:50David Pierce?

  Okay, like, give me an example, what on there feels...

• 47:53Speaker 04

  I think the software looks completely different as an example. So when we launched the phone one, we were only able to make stock Android stable.

• 48:00David Pierce?

  Right.

• 48:01Speaker 04

  That's the extent of our engineering resource. Now we can start experimenting with our own ideas, our own widgets, our own monochrome UI, et cetera. So I think at least that looks very different, and we have a very exciting roadmap for where to take that in the future. So at least the next few generations or next couple of years, there'll be a lot of exciting stuff happening on the software side.

• 48:20David Pierce?

  What about on the hardware front? Is there a, I know you've, you've said somewhat controversially, I read a thing this morning that said like Carl Pae's reality distortion field puts Steve Jobs to shame, after you said you're not into foldable phones as an idea. I'm very bullish on flip phones personally, and I'm happy to give you a long speech about why I love flip phones if you'd like, but you have not seemed all that interested in that. You're, you're still on this kind of like most people's experience of a smartphone, what else can we add to it? Do you think there's big new ideas to be had there?

• 48:49Speaker 04

  The thing for us is every product needs to be profitable and every product needs to be a hit because we don't have infinite resource. So foldables and flip phones are not that exciting yet. Over time, as the category matures, as the crease starts really disappearing, as apps are being tailored to this new form factor, I think, you know, it's something we could consider. We're not saying no, but I don't think it's the thing that's going to really change the paradigm. I don't think it's the thing that's going to make Android win over iOS. I don't think it's what's going to make us go from a niche smartphone maker to the next big tech company. So it's okay. We just got to build a really solid base of products and we keep getting better.

• 49:30Speaker 04

  Hopefully, we build up some cash to try and invent the next thing.

• 49:35David Pierce?

  Fair enough. All right. Well, when either the next thing happens or the phone three like flips and folds and you've just been lying to me this whole time, you're going to come back and we're going to talk about it.

• 49:44Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 49:44David Pierce?

  Thank you, Carl. Really appreciate it.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 49:47David Pierce?

  All right. One more break and then we are going to get deep into our feelings about TV remotes.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  College football is back. So Hilton called to me, the superstition concierge, to make your fan rituals a reality. Need a room to match your lucky number? We got you. Want to make sure our team doesn't wash your lucky jersey? Oh, that smells lucky. Hilton's unmatched hospitality can keep up with any superstition. Even a marching band wake up call at 5:55 in 55 seconds. Hit it! When you need a team that will do whatever it takes on game day, it matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay.

• 50:27Speaker 02

  When you need to build up your team to handle the growing chaos at work, use Indeed sponsored jobs. It gives your job post the boost it needs to be seen and helps reach people with the right skills, certifications, and more. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need a hiring hero? This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 50:59David Pierce?

  Welcome back. Andrew Moreno is here. Andrew, you have told me very little about what's about to happen to me and to us in the universe, except you told me you want to talk about TV remotes.

• 51:10Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, we have a lot of opinions about TV remotes in this Vergecast Producers Club here. And I wanted to share that discussion with the audience because I think it's worth talking about.

• 51:22David Pierce?

  I should say, in preparation for this, I went around my house and found every single remote that I have. It turns out there were seven. Three of them, I could not tell you what they go to, but I have four functioning remotes and three others in my house. Liam James is also here. Liam, who usually refuses to be on the podcast, demanded to be on the podcast.

• 51:41Speaker 06

  Well, someone has to counter your terrible opinions on remote controls, so.

• 51:45David Pierce?

  I mean, that's fair. We've been talking about this segment and this issue for a very long time. This might be six or seven hours long, so buckle up, everybody. Andrew, you have been talking to some people and doing some research. Where would you like to start here?

• 51:58Speaker 05

  Okay, I want to start with one of the most frustrating remotes I've ever used, which kind of started this conversation about how remote design is kind of an afterthought. So I have this remote, and it is one of the novelty remotes because I needed a universal remote for my TV.

• 52:14David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 52:14Speaker 05

  And it's shaped like a fishing reel.

• 52:19Speaker 05

  It looks like a fishing reel, has a little like crank on the side.

• 52:24David Pierce?

  Oh, boy.

• 52:25Speaker 05

  So it actually works with the remote. I'll get to that.

• 52:28David Pierce?

  You know what this looks like to me? It's like an old timey Nintendo video game controller. Like, you know, the gun that you had for Duck Hunt on like the old Nintendo?

• 52:37Speaker 05

  There's a Dreamcast fishing remote that is like that. Yeah.

• 52:41David Pierce?

  Exactly.

• 52:42Speaker 05

  It's shaped like a fishing reel. There's a skinny handle, and there's like a bulbous spool shaped end to it. The first problem is there's absolutely no way to lay this flat on the table because there's a little trigger on the back. And if you lay it on the table, it just kind of goes to the side. Also, there's a gigantic button on the side of the remote that makes this very loud noise. Oh no.

• 53:08David Pierce?

  Like, it sounds like a fishing reel being yanked. Pressing this button also turns on the sounds for the remote. So I can be like, I'm reeling it right now.

• 53:19Speaker 05

  Is this marketed to children?

• 53:20David Pierce?

  It's, this is marketed just to you, Andrew. Like this, I'm not convinced this is a real product. This is something someone made and conned you into buying on the internet.

• 53:29Speaker 05

  It's probably like a Father's Day present kind of thing. So obviously you don't want annoying sound every time you use the remote. So you can turn it off by pressing the button again. But if you put it on the couch, it's going to hit that button again. It's really annoying. And then all the other buttons are so tiny and hard to find. The volume up button is like two little triangles on the left.

• 53:50David Pierce?

  The thing you're holding up looks like a slightly bigger like calculator watch, where all the buttons are the same and tiny and like God help you trying to figure out what any of them are.

• 53:59Speaker 05

  So obviously this is like a dramatic version of a bad remote design. But there are similar kind of problems with remotes. Like my least favorite is that Comcast Silva remote.

• 54:11David Pierce?

  This one.

• 54:11Speaker 05

  Oh yeah, David has it here.

• 54:13David Pierce?

  This is one of the seven that I have in my house. I don't have a Comcast box anymore, but I have this remote, which means there's like a 60% chance I'm paying Comcast $10 a month for this remote at some point. But I agree, this is one of the all time worst remotes. And it has the same problem that you were just showing. It has a million buttons. They're all basically the same. You can't find anything just like with your fingers. I agree, this is like one of the worst remotes of all time.

• 54:37Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is one of the remotes that's like notorious for being taped off for certain areas. So like you give to your grandparents, it's like, here are the three buttons you need to know how to use.

• 54:48David Pierce?

  Do not touch the input button. This remote, I'm sorry, I'm just now obsessed with this remote. I'm looking at this remote now. It has five buttons just to control picture in picture mode, which no one ever uses on their Comcast box. And overwhelmingly their Comcast box probably doesn't support. It has buttons marked guide, info, menu, exit, help, and last. There's an A, B, and C. Like what are we, what are we doing? This is out, there are five buttons that you use to turn things on at the top of this. This is, yeah, this just makes me angry to look at.

• 55:18Speaker 05

  Right. So I wanted to know, how did we get to this point? Why are remotes so poorly designed? So the first person I talked to was Steve Turbeck. He's a designer in Brooklyn.

• 55:29Speaker 07

  One of the biggest things I've worked on is how to like, explain to people, normal people, what design is.

• 55:35Speaker 05

  He wrote this really great blog about the design of remote controls and the different levels of simplicity. He pointed out the obvious reason why a lot of remotes are quote unquote, bad.

• 55:47Speaker 07

  The key thing about remotes is that even though they're the most important thing to the user, they're the last thing that the company thinks about making. And generally speaking, they're trying to make them as cheaply as possible. And so that often means using a bunch of stock remotes that are kind of manufactured in a hundred different places. And yet, like the actual, the thing that you hold in your hand for a good five to 10 years, it doesn't seem to be that important. So I think it's more of a cultural thing rather than an engineering problem.

• 56:12Speaker 05

  I guess that's true. That also explains, right, why like your cable box looks like crap. It's just not the thing people ultimately, at the end of the day, care about.

• 56:20Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 56:20Speaker 05

  But.

• 56:20Speaker 07

  It's the least satisfying answer.

• 56:22Speaker 05

  It really is, but it's probably right.

• 56:24Speaker 07

  That makes sense, but also, yeah. Requires me to accept that people don't care about things that they should.

• 56:30Speaker 05

  Yeah, exactly. So I talked to someone else who actually has designed remotes. His name is Sajid. He worked on the Philips UX design.

• 56:40Speaker 08

  The whole effort was called One UX, which is basically one user experience across all of Philips products. Not only doing the digital interface designs, remote controls were, are an integral part of using a product like a television. So naturally it became part of the process to take a look at the remote controls and make that entire experience, end to end experience, more pleasant for our users.

• 57:05Speaker 05

  Something immediately, when I asked, like, why can't we just have like a simple remote design? He alluded to the obstacles and red tape and a lot of this kind of stuff.

• 57:16Speaker 08

  When you try to do something totally divergent and let's say, okay, let's remove the buttons, let's introduce a trackpad. And then there will be a lot of pushback because that demands new engineering, new product in industrial design, new testing. And there is skepticism around whether this will work or not. So you have to convince a lot of stakeholders to be able to adopt anything that's diverging from the traditional way of doing things.

• 57:41Speaker 05

  And this is kind of like an overall tech design problem, not specific to TV remotes. That's a reason why a lot of TVs look exactly the same and a lot of laptops and mice and all that.

• 57:53David Pierce?

  Well, and I think, I wonder if that also explains these kinds of, you know, every imaginable button and idea thing. Like this just made me think of, for some reason, I was talking to somebody years ago who was making an email app. And they were like, pull up gmail.com and I'd like to tell you about the product manager for every single pixel on this website. And it's like, there's a reason that there's something in this corner and there's a reason that there's something in this corner and on this sidebar and up here. And there's a person who is in charge of all of this and they are sitting in meetings demanding that their thing be front and center. So ultimately they make everything front and center, which makes everything a total nightmare. And I'm sitting here looking at both this Comcast remote with a billion buttons and my old Vizio remote, which has a million buttons on one side and then a full keyboard on the back.

• 58:36Speaker 05

  Oh, I love that one.

• 58:37David Pierce?

  I actually, to be honest, there's like something very good about this particular remote. But you can just see it too, right? There's a million different products inside of this one remote. And they all just shove it all together because it seems easier than like having opinions about things.

• 58:53Speaker 05

  Yeah, both designers talked about this. Like over time, there's been so many iterations of the TV remote controlling the DVD player, the home theater system, the VCR, your music devices, your computer.

• 59:07Speaker 08

  All of these interfaces that you are trying to control kind of are hidden behind something that you need to access. And to access those is the remote control. And that makes it, you need to expose all of those functions and features on the remote control so that you can have a one click access to them. Right? So then you add up adding buttons and functions.

• 59:27Speaker 05

  So you can tell when there's not a lot of research and development being put into a remote. So how would you test a good design is what I asked them. Steve had a lot of ideas on how we can get to that place.

• 59:40Speaker 07

  You have every designer has a way that they think about doing it. But it turns out a lot of our ideas are not that great. And so I'm more of a kind of user experience designer where you design stuff and then you test it. And if your ego is strong enough to sit through like hundreds of people going through your device, you end up in a much better place.

• 59:57Speaker 05

  And that is what Sajid's team ended up doing was testing out this stuff in people's homes versus them coming to a lab.

• 1:00:05Speaker 08

  That's the best way to kind of understand what you're designing is getting used in the real world. Like, it could be somebody in their home trying to use a TV while attending a kid and something they are doing on the side, like how do you juggle your day to day life around the products that you are designing? Because your product is going and sitting inside their home, it's becoming a part of their life.

• 1:00:27David Pierce?

  Well, my question on that is how do they test this? Because I think part of the challenge here is that everybody is used to a giant slab full of buttons. And there's something awful, but something sort of familiar about that. So if you do have this like big divergent idea, how do you test to see if it's working? Like, what are they looking for? What is, what does a better remote even look like?

• 1:00:48Speaker 05

  So the best scenario that people want, which I think kind of is a flaw in TV remotes, is everyone wants something to be like one click away.

• 1:00:58Speaker 08

  We wanted to understand like, what are some of those priorities for the users? Like, most of them don't want to be looking down at the remote control while trying to experience the content they're trying to enjoy. One of the big insights was like, make this a non-interruptive process. Like, remote controls should not be interruptive to the experience of enjoying the content. And at the same time, things should be one click away.

• 1:01:24David Pierce?

  Can I tell you my crazy theory? I wonder if the problem is that we conflate those two things, that I can do it easily without looking down and I have to be able to do it in one click.

• 1:01:35Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:01:35David Pierce?

  Are the same thing, because they're not the same thing. Like, for me, it's all, every time I have to look down at my remote, we have failed. But I'm happy to like, do two or three things as long as I kind of understand how to get there quickly and don't have to look down. I am much more. In favor of like, if I had to like, do the Konami code every time to do something, but I like, knew it and didn't have to look it up every single time, that still feels like a victory to me, but maybe I'm not all people.

• 1:02:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, I, I mean, I'm pretty satisfied with like, the Netflix button and the Hulu button. It's like, multiple streaming service buttons and on one remote, that's, I mean, that works for me. But what Sajid's team ended up going with is kind of more, I don't want to say minimalist, but like, a smaller design with just like, focusing on a trackpad.

• 1:02:19Speaker 08

  It was like, a smaller in size. The trackpad was like, the major portion of the design and the interface. So trackpad can be just a trackpad, but then trackpad can be with clickable areas. So we had like, top, right, top, bottom, left and right edges of the trackpad as clickable. So you could do multiple interactions. And then we also, because we had to do, incorporate so much into one trackpad, so we said, okay, how can we increase more functions within a trackpad? So you have a single click, you have a long press, you have a long press and a slide. So we kind of use all those gestures to increase the amount of things that you can do with just a square surface.

• 1:02:59Speaker 05

  I saw Liam really shaking his head.

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  This is, this is my biggest frustration with modern remotes. You know, I completely agree with what Steve said, right? Most of our ideas are bad. I think Johnny Ive's worst contribution to technology design in his entire career was putting a touch surface on a remote control. It's a terrible experience. I've never seen anybody do it, right? If anyone should be able to do it, it's Apple and their remote is a joke.

• 1:03:26David Pierce?

  Yes. I could not agree more with this. The like, true torturousness of trying to figure out how to even hold that Siri remote in your hand was such a gigantic disaster. To me, it's like, Liam, listening to you talk about it just made me think of the keyboard that used to be on the Apple TV where you had to swipe from letter to letter. And it was so fine in order to make it quick to swipe between things, that actually landing on the letter you wanted to click on was like borderline impossible. It was awful. I will say, the things that Sajid is talking about, about having these kind of different interactions built into the same Thing, the single press, the long press, whatever. I like that in theory. I just have never seen anyone do it well, I don't think.

• 1:04:08Speaker 06

  Even the second version of this, this improved version of this remote, still has a touch surface on it that's prone to like spurious inputs. Like you just accidentally do things while you're watching a movie that takes you out of the moment. And, sorry, who thought putting this fucking Siri button on the side of the remote was a good idea? It's just like every time you try to take a screenshot on your iPhone, you accidentally turn it off or do some weird thing. It's like,

• 1:04:34Speaker 05

  It's like the screech on the fishing reel.

• 1:04:38Speaker 06

  It's like they're trolling us. It's like, let's just see how crazy we can drive people.

• 1:04:42David Pierce?

  I would get more use out of the reel spinning thing than I do the Siri button, because at least that's like a fidget spinner I can play with while I'm watching TV.

• 1:04:51Speaker 05

  What you can do is you can hold the trigger on the back of the remote and then use the reel.

• 1:04:58David Pierce?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:04:58Speaker 05

  And it will put the volume up on the TV.

• 1:05:03Speaker 06

  That incredible remote that should be marketed as guaranteed divorce. Just pop this out next to your spouse and give it a go.

• 1:05:13Speaker 05

  So we, we're talking a lot about what bad remote design is, but I want to talk about what everyone thinks is good TV remote design.

• 1:05:20David Pierce?

  Okay.

• 1:05:21Speaker 05

  Liam, you go first.

• 1:05:22Speaker 06

  So this isn't the remote I use every day, unfortunately. But my favorite remote of all time is the Xbox One media remote.

• 1:05:32David Pierce?

  Of all time?

• 1:05:33Speaker 06

  Of all time.

• 1:05:34David Pierce?

  This is what you want to, really?

• 1:05:36Speaker 06

  This is the sword I'm gonna die on. I'm ready, willing and able. Hear me out. The Xbox One was a terrible product, but from it came a great input device. And if you've ever used a Microsoft input device, like go back to the Intel Explorer mouse from the 90s to their ergonomic keyboards. Microsoft knows how to make a good input device. And I think this is just like peak remote design. It's not made out of a slab of aluminum or any sort of fancy material. It's just a plastic remote with buttons on it. But what I like about it is that it's not made out of aluminum or any sort of fancy material.

• 1:06:10Speaker 06

  About it is the way it feels in my hand because it has a rounded back. However, even though it has a rounded back, when you put it on your coffee table,

• 1:06:16Speaker 06

  It's just a plastic remote with buttons on it.

• 1:06:18Speaker 06

  it still stands up straight, which is just kind of like a cool gimmicky bit.

• 1:06:19Speaker 06

  But what I like about it is that it's not made out of aluminum or any sort of fancy material.

• 1:06:23Speaker 06

  But I just, it makes me smile every time I see it. It has backlit buttons, which are necessary only because all the buttons are black

• 1:06:26Speaker 06

  It's just a plastic remote with buttons on it.

• 1:06:31Speaker 06

  and it is a black remote, which I admit.

• 1:06:33David Pierce?

  Right. It needs backlit buttons because it's a bad remote that you can't use without having to look down at it and blind yourself in the dark. This is, this is great. This is what I was hoping for too.

• 1:06:42Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. I hard disagree. It is definitely a concession of the design to have it all black, but every design has compromises, right? You want something that doesn't look ugly on your coffee table that has like a giant Netflix logo and an Amazon logo and whatever else on it, right? This is a really nice looking design, but is also really ergonomic. It feels really nice to use. Even though the buttons are covered with a layer of like soft touch plastic over the top to make it water resistant, they feel really nice when you click them. Up, down, left, right are very easy. Even though they're set inside a circle, they're very easy to distinguish with your thumb without looking at the remote. And then this is for me, the most important thing. And this is what makes this remote stand out to me.

• 1:07:27Speaker 06

  So most of our like media streamer remotes nowadays have about like 12 or 13 buttons on them, right? This new Siri remote or whatever it's called has, I think 12 buttons, if you count up, down, left, right as separate buttons. This has those same 13 buttons that you would normally have. But then it has for serious video watchers, some dedicated video control buttons at the bottom. So you can scrub forward, back, play, pause. Or let's say you're inside of a video playlist. This one in particularly I love. You can skip to the next track. There isn't a button on most media streamer. Actually, I can't think of another one that has that button.

• 1:08:07Speaker 06

  So if I'm queuing up a playlist of my favorite MCTV sitcoms from the 90s on shuffle and, you know, I've seen a couple too many episodes of Frasier, I can click the next track button and get there. So I just love it. It feels nice. It's not too heavy. It's not too small. It doesn't get lost in a couch, regardless of what David might say. And yeah, I just love it.

• 1:08:31David Pierce?

  It's a good remote. Best of all time is is a truly wild take.

• 1:08:35Speaker 06

  All right. What do you got? What's better than this remote?

• 1:08:37David Pierce?

  I just mostly feel like the thing you're controlling with it is your Xbox One, which immediately removes it from all contention forever and ever and ever.

• 1:08:46Speaker 06

  Okay, that's a really good point.

• 1:08:47David Pierce?

  This remote is really good for operating a device that makes me want to throw it out the window 450 times a day.

• 1:08:55Speaker 06

  Totally fair, totally fair. I should have started this whole thing with the Xbox One media remote is using standard like media streamer IR codes and you can get this to work. I've had it work on an Nvidia Shield. I've had it work on an Apple TV. I've had it work on an Xbox Series X, which it's supposed to not work with.

• 1:09:17David Pierce?

  That's it's fair. I will say this is the kind of remote that I think like if Logitech made it and sold it as like a use it for all of your other kinds of devices remote, it would have done very well. My answer, I have two, and ultimately, I'm just going to pick one. But I want to quickly honorable mention to the only remote that I have ever paid money for on purpose, which is the Roku. I have four Roku remotes on my desk right now. Like this is this is the life I lead. I believe this is the Roku Voice Remote Pro.

• 1:09:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:09:46David Pierce?

  This is a very good remote, and it's very good for two reasons. One is because it's a little bigger and sort of, you know, heftier than the other Roku remotes. It like feels better to hold, feels like a thing instead of the plastic nonsense that Roku mostly ships. But it has two things that are very good. One, it has integrated voice search. So you just press the microphone button, hold it up to your face and voice search. And two, it has headphone jack and private listening on the Roku is like the single greatest streaming box innovation of the last decade, as far as I'm concerned. I love it very much, and Roku deserves huge credit. So feature wise, I think this is my favorite remote ever. But in terms of like, just the thing to hold in my hand and use, it's the Nvidia Shield remote.

• 1:10:28Speaker 06

  Oh, the Toblerone.

• 1:10:30David Pierce?

  Toblerone. It's a weird shape, which is weird because it doesn't sit sort of pleasingly flat on my coffee table, but I can pick it out from all the other remotes that I have. So it's like unique. It feels really good to hold, which I think is important. Are you guys, when you're sitting on the couch watching something, are you holding the remote or is the remote on the couch next to you or is the remote on the coffee table?

• 1:10:51Speaker 06

  Fifty fifty.

• 1:10:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, as an audio engineer, I am constantly moving the volume up and down on the TV. So I love the broken remote also. So I'm constantly like moving the buttons on the side of the broken remote up and down.

• 1:11:08David Pierce?

  Side volume control is also a good innovation of

• 1:11:10Speaker 06

  Agree, yeah.

• 1:11:11David Pierce?

  Well done on that. But I will stop with the Shield shortly here, but it is another one that has nice buttons, kind of like you're talking about Liam, where they're not super separated, but you can kind of feel the difference between all of them. And Nvidia did a thing that I really like where it has a customizable button that you can aggressively customize. It can do almost anything. It can launch almost anything. It can get to menus and you can have it do different things for one press, two presses, three presses. So it becomes a thing that's like, I can hand this remote to somebody and they're going to be able to figure out how to use it. But if I have it, I'm better at it. And I actually feel like that's sort of the sweet spot where like, most of these kind of macroe remotes like Sajid was talking about are going to have a huge learning curve. But I like these

• 1:11:54David Pierce?

  ones where it's like, most people could just sit down and figure it out. But I have these like power tools on top of it. And for that reason, I feel like Nvidia really got this right.

• 1:12:02Speaker 06

  Okay, so the Nvidia Shield Toblerone is a great remote. I have to agree. It's actually my half daily driver. So I watch movies using the Nvidia Shield and everything else on my Apple TV. For the nerds, it's just because I want pass through audio and Plex can do pass through audio on the Nvidia Shield. But I do have a couple of comments about this remote. One, you just knocked my baby for having black on black buttons.

• 1:12:29Speaker 06

  Same thing. Also, that remote's backlit.

• 1:12:31David Pierce?

  You can turn the backlight off.

• 1:12:32Speaker 06

  You can turn the backlight off, but then it's really hard to see at night. My one other knock on that remote, and maybe this, maybe I just got a bad one. But I find the up, down, left, right to be like, I just, it doesn't feel like it's gonna last forever. Do you know what I mean? Like, I've had it since the Nvidia Shield Pro came out. So what is that, a couple of years? It just feels like it's not the way it was when I got it. And it's starting to get a little less satisfying to click.

• 1:13:01David Pierce?

  That's fair. A lot of these, like, I have a couple of Fire TV ones too, that have the same kind of all one-piece wheel. And they all feel a little bit like they're one grain of dust away from just totally breaking. But I've been using the Shield one for a long time and it's still fine, so I have high hopes. Andrew, I want to know, I want to know what yours is. Is it, is it the fishing rod? Please tell me it's the fishing rod.

• 1:13:25Speaker 05

  It is not the fishing rod. I have to agree that, like, I love the Roku remote. And there's different reasons, I think, than what you said. Really like the play state. The way we watch TV now is not like dialing numbers. And we don't go up and down usually on channels. So what this prioritizes is the play and pause. So like, right where you're, when you're holding the remote, right where your thumb is, is the play and pause button. And that is the most important thing to do while you're watching TV, right?

• 1:13:55David Pierce?

  Yep. And it's a little like concave too, so your thumb just kind of nestles on it. It's, they did it, it's, it's very nice.

• 1:14:02Speaker 05

  And then there is a home button and a back button. And those are right at the top of the remote. And you know, if you need to go back, just put your thumbs up to the back. And it's just like a really flexible remote. That's a product of like us being in the streaming world. And they started to get it right during the TiVo days. I have this TiVo remote here. And if you see this yellow button in the center of the remote is a pause button. And it is like, they clearly understood that this was the most important part of the remote. And it's like right where your thumb would be when you hold it. Anything that prioritizes the play and pause, that's where we should be going towards right now.

• 1:14:43David Pierce?

  I had never thought about this until you said this, but now I'm looking at all these other remotes and almost none of them do.

• 1:14:50Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:14:50David Pierce?

  Like on this horrible Comcast remote, I couldn't even tell you what it's prioritizing. But the play, pause buttons are actually up from where you naturally hold it. So you have to like shimmy it in your hand just to get to the pause button. This Vizio remote, it really wants you to launch the Vizio Smart Apps because that's cool and a thing people want to do. And most of them, the volume is actually where your finger goes. And that sort of makes sense, but I think you're totally right that play, pause should be like naturally as you hold the thing, that's where your thumb should sit.

• 1:15:19Speaker 05

  Yeah. And while you're holding the remote, you can hold pause and then do the volume up and down with your other finger at the same time.

• 1:15:26David Pierce?

  True.

• 1:15:26Speaker 05

  So you can really, it's really flexible. Yeah. And my LG remote that it comes with my TV has a Netflix button and Amazon Go button, acknowledges that streaming is important. The play and pause button are all the way tiny at the bottom and it's so tiny, you can't even tell like they're just next to each other. There's no prioritize of what.

• 1:15:46David Pierce?

  Yeah, it's terrible.

• 1:15:47Speaker 05

  Like, how often am I going and fast forwarding? You know, it's the same size as the play and the, and the play and the pause button are separate buttons.

• 1:15:55David Pierce?

  I was just about to say, we can, we can agree that play and pause should be the same button.

• 1:15:58Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:15:58David Pierce?

  Right? Absolutely.

• 1:16:00Speaker 05

  And then can I just give an honorable mention?

• 1:16:02David Pierce?

  Please.

• 1:16:02Speaker 05

  Which is the Zenith Space Command Remote.

• 1:16:08Speaker 05

  Which is a very old TV remote from the 60s, 70s. All it is, is just a tuning fork and you press the buttons. There's four buttons. One is channel lower, volume mute, on and off, and channel higher.

• 1:16:23David Pierce?

  Can you press the buttons near your microphone? Cause I suspect they make great noises.

• 1:16:27Speaker 05

  Uh, yes.

• 1:16:30David Pierce?

  That's what I'm talking about right there. That's a button.

• 1:16:32Speaker 05

  There's a really high frequency that is chiming with this tuning fork in the remote. Then the TV picks it up and, and does that command. Uh, and I just love it because it is just stays flat on the table. It is just a chocolate bar, basically, and it has four big buttons. And I just want a remote like this again. That's just a thing with four big buttons.

• 1:16:56David Pierce?

  So that doesn't use infrared, it uses sound?

• 1:16:59Speaker 05

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:17:00David Pierce?

  Incredible.

• 1:17:01Speaker 05

  It does not use any electronics. It is just, you press a button and it makes an actual sound with a tuning fork that changes the TV.

• 1:17:09David Pierce?

  This would absolutely not work in 2023, but I love it.

• 1:17:14Speaker 05

  There should be an adapter that you could plug your TV into to use this thing.

• 1:17:18David Pierce?

  Andrew, this brings me to a big picture question that I've been wondering about. And I wonder if you talked to Steven Sajid about it too, which is that it seems like the world should go in one of two directions. Either all of these companies need to care about and design and build better remotes that work for everybody. And I wonder if that's even possible, especially because all this stuff is so mainstream now that like if Roku radically redesigned their remote, I kind of feel like it would go badly. The Apple TV is a perfect example, right? But then on the other side, there have been various attempts at like making a remote industry. Logitech sold the Harmony. There was like the Kavo was a thing for a minute there. Like people have tried to do universal remotes. And even when, do you guys remember when everybody was like, oh, we're going to make a universal remote? That's also a smart home controller and that had a moment.

• 1:18:03Speaker 05

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:04David Pierce?

  Google was like, just screw that, use your smartphone. Now they have a remote that's kind of like everybody else's remote. Can we make an accessory industry out of this? Can TV makers do this? Or are we just sort of stuck in this crappy world of mediocre remotes forever? What's your sense coming out of all this?

• 1:18:21Speaker 05

  Well, I talked to Sajid a little bit about the future of this.

• 1:18:24Speaker 08

  Now with virtual reality and AR and all of that coming in, maybe there is something else. I don't know, we won't be even looking at each other anymore. So remotes are like maybe a small part of the larger problem that the technology revolution is going to kind of bring us. And now there are like TVs you can control with your phones. So you don't even actually need a remote control. Phones in some cases have also become a second screen for televisions. For example, there are ways, things you can do with second screen. You're watching something on, let's say, Amazon Prime. On your TV and there is a product that you saw your phone could tell you what that product is and you can buy it from Amazon.

• 1:19:10David Pierce?

  I think the phone remote idea is horrible and I hate every phone remote because you have to look at it. It's like it's the opposite of what I'm looking for in a remote, which is like a thing that I can hold in my hand that doesn't light up like Liam's stupid remote. And doesn't make me look at it like Liam's stupid remote and doesn't get lost in the cushions like Liam's stupid remote. I just want like a little brick that I can feel. This is like, I just keep thinking about like Apple's Vision Pro where it's like the sort of look and click your fingers. And I'm like, that's the closest thing to a sort of virtual remote interface that I'm interested in. I hate the smartphone as remote thing. It's fine in a pinch when I lose Liam's stupid remote in the couch cushions. But it is not what I'm looking for like day to day at all.

• 1:19:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, I absolutely hate the reliance on a smartphone to control things. And I think it's becoming a problem in like the home theater world. Like if you buy a soundbar, a lot of times there's functionality locked behind the app. So they give you one of these cheap pack and remotes. But if you want to change how it's processing Atmos or something like that, you gotta download the app and link it up to this box. And is this company going to continue to develop this app? Because we know you can't just make an app and put it on the smartphone and expect it to just continue working forever, right? You have to continue to develop it to make sure it continues to work. So every time I see TV companies saying something like that or home theater companies.

• 1:20:36Speaker 06

  It's like you've already proven to us that you make terrible software, just, just the worst imaginable. I like only the audio industry can eclipse you in making terrible software. And you want me to use your iOS app to actually control your device? No, thank you. I don't get my iPhone out to control my TV unless I have just absolutely given up.

• 1:20:57David Pierce?

  Because you've lost your Xbox remote in the couch cushions again.

• 1:21:00Speaker 06

  Yes, just to be clear, back check here. David, your remote lights up is also hard to see in the dark and is smaller than mine by thickness. So it's easier to get lost in the couch. So, you know, just point that out.

• 1:21:14David Pierce?

  That's outrageous. My Toblerone sticks out when it falls into the couch and I just yonk it right out. It's like the sword and the stone style. I just pull it out of the couch, get back to it.

• 1:21:23Speaker 05

  You know, something I liked, and I know you guys are gonna have some feelings about the Wii U controller with the whole screen on it.

• 1:21:31David Pierce?

  Oh.

• 1:21:32Speaker 05

  Like have a TV with a second screen controller.

• 1:21:36David Pierce?

  Ooh.

• 1:21:36Speaker 05

  What do you think about that?

• 1:21:38David Pierce?

  So basically, what if my Nintendo Switch was also my TV remote?

• 1:21:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:43David Pierce?

  I love this. I'm in. That's the most impractical thing I've ever heard and I love it already.

• 1:21:48Speaker 06

  Um, no, absolutely. I don't want software and screens to control my viewing experience.

• 1:21:54Speaker 05

  Yeah. Uh, one more thing before we go. I want to talk about voice control.

• 1:21:59David Pierce?

  Hmm.

• 1:22:00Speaker 05

  And whether you think we can rely totally on that, or is this an added feature? Or we should just not use it at all. I don't like it.

• 1:22:08Speaker 06

  I find it really handy for search when you're looking for something with like an obnoxious title to type out. Um, but I very rarely use it.

• 1:22:16David Pierce?

  That's interesting. I use it a lot, but only for search. I think the idea that it's gonna be easier to lift my remote to my mouth and say, open Netflix than it will be to just press the Netflix button is just never gonna be the case. But search on screens is awful. And, you know, going left, left, left, right, right, right, up, down, up, down to get to the letter is just sucks. And that's also a place I use my smartphone a lot. Like Roku has the thing where you can type with your phone keyboard into the text box on the screen. Love that. But I use voice pretty regularly. If I know what I want to watch, that's almost always the fastest way for me to get there. But I don't, if that was my only remote, it would drive me and everyone else in my home crazy. I mean, I just think about all

• 1:23:01David Pierce?

  the times that like Siri activates because of something it hears on my television. And like, good God, if it could control the TV in the process, I'd be, I'd be screwed.

• 1:23:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, the only time that has worked really well for me is in like 2018, when I asked my Google Home, play Stranger Things in my living room. And that has only, the only time it's ever worked is specifically watching Stranger Things on Netflix.

• 1:23:26David Pierce?

  But it probably felt like magic.

• 1:23:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, it felt like magic.

• 1:23:29Speaker 06

  I felt like the future and ever since then, nothing has really worked as well with voice for me.

• 1:23:35David Pierce?

  That sounds about right. So, okay, I know, I know we have to go here, but did you ask them about the grandparent thing where you have to cover 80% of the buttons? And then hand it to them. It's like the babysitter test was always the one that I think of too, right? Cause these are like social objects, right? Lots of people use them. Do they look at this and think, okay, the fact that you have to like Sharpie an arrow to the play button and the guide button because those are the only ones that people should touch? Is that like a miserable design failure of anyone who has ever tried to make remotes?

• 1:24:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, Steve in particular called this out.

• 1:24:07Speaker 07

  Most designers, especially remote controlled designers, we're in a funny position like where we have, I think, a certain responsibility to try and push the state of the art to be a little bit better. Even if that's means you're just putting a little bit more work into your on-screen menu design or whatever it is, or advocating in that critical meeting to spend another 10 cents per unit or something like that. But because I think a lot of people are, they're given the remote and they have no choice. And I feel like we have a little bit of responsibility to kind of tip the balance to them. And if you see these little photographs of people saving, like taking their grandparents remotes and covering over all the buttons except for the volume and the PBS button or something like that, that's a little bit of failure in it. I feel like we could do a little better there.

• 1:24:52David Pierce?

  Yeah, like I would like fewer buttons on remotes in general, but I also think like clarity above all things, right? Even if you're going to hand me a remote full of buttons, most people are relatively smart, they should be able to figure out what is going on. I was looking while you were talking and speaking of the back button on the Roku remote, I'm back on my silver Xfinity remote. And there are six things on here that you could plausibly think are the back button. Like if I just want to go back one. There are literally six things that I think I could plausibly argue are the right one. I'm pretty sure I know what the right one is, but I genuinely don't know for sure. And it's like, let's fix that problem and then, then we can worry about having a million buttons for a million streaming services. Like just teach me where back is and then we can go from there.

• 1:25:36Speaker 07

  Exactly.

• 1:25:38David Pierce?

  Can you, can you play us out with the fishing rod? We should take a break, but I just want to hear from the fishing rod one more time before we go.

• 1:25:49David Pierce?

  And with that, he launches Hulu. All right. Thank you both. You, listening, should email us all of your thoughts about your favorite remotes ever. Vergecast at theverge.com. Send us your favorite remote ever, ideally with a picture, and we'll talk about as many of them as we can on the show. This is delightful. Andrew, Liam, thank you both again. Let's do the hotline, wrap the show up.

• 1:26:14David Pierce?

  As a reminder, the hotline number is 866-VERGE11. Call and ask us all your deepest, darkest, weirdest tech questions. We love them all. Before we get into this week's question, let me just play you a voicemail we got from Sean, who called in to respond to last week's question about how to keep your battery healthy for longer.

• 1:26:32Speaker 09

  Hey, hey, this is Sean from Clearwater, Florida, talking about phone batteries. I drive for a living, so I have apps that track me and take up a bunch of my battery life. So I found out that it overheats really bad doing that. So what I've done is clipped my phone to an air conditioner vent in my truck, and that will keep that phone battery nice and cool, not using as much electricity. Okay, hope it helps. Bye.

• 1:27:01David Pierce?

  I love this. These are our people. Thank you, Vergecast listeners, for being as weird about technology as we are. All right, this week's question, more on TV, it comes from Rahul.

• 1:27:12Speaker 10

  Hi, David and Verge team. My name is Rahul. I'm in San Antonio, Texas. I'm calling to ask you guys about TVs, particularly devices for TVs, because I'm tired of the crappy software on my LG OLED TV. And I refuse to get an Apple TV. That seems to be the only decent option out there. What does Google have nowadays? I had an Android TV years ago. I had other products. I know the Shield exists, but it's old now. So is there anything newer, anything updated since the Shield TV for an Android user to watch some streaming on their TV? I appreciate the answer to this. Thanks.

• 1:27:52David Pierce?

  All right. First of all, I love this question because Rahul, you feel the pain that I feel with set-top boxes, which is that they're mostly all very bad. The Apple TV has some stuff going for it. The Shield, like you said, has some stuff going for it. But I want there to just be one that is like the one you should get, and there just really isn't. But I think there are really two answers to your question. One is the Nvidia Shield, which just from a pure raw power perspective is still probably the best Android thing on the market. It's a little overkill for a lot of things, and some people aren't gonna love the way that you have to kind of maintain the interface and all that stuff. But it's still very good. It's pretty expensive, but it's very good. But I would say for my money at this moment,

• 1:28:36David Pierce?

  Google's latest Chromecast, the one with Google TV, is probably the one to get. You can get the new Chromecast for as little as $30. It comes with a remote now, which is great because you don't have to just use your phone. But it's still just a dongle that plugs into your TV. The $30 one is just 1080p, and the $50 one does 4K and HDR and all the rest of that stuff. I would direct you to the $50 one for all those reasons, but also because it comes in more colors. The $30 Chromecast just comes in white, and I don't care for the dongle, but that white remote is gonna get gross really, really fast. Maybe you're less gross about like eating Cheetos and then using your TV remote than I am, but that's just what happens.

• 1:29:20David Pierce?

  My remote would be truly disgusting if I had that white one around. But the new Chromecast is good. It has Google TV, which does a really good job aggregating content and recommendations and finding all that stuff. The remote works pretty well. It's not my favorite, but it's like eight buttons and a D-pad. It's pretty simple and straightforward. You'll figure it out. The Chromecast has all of the apps you probably want, including Apple TV, which was a late addition to the Google TV stuff, but it's there now. It just does a good job of being content-first in the way that some others aren't. So that's where I would start you. It's not terribly expensive, works pretty well. It's a boring answer, but just buy a Chromecast. I think that's the one. All right, that's it for the Vergecast today. Thank you to everyone. Who came on the show today and especially as always, thank you for listening.

• 1:30:05David Pierce?

  There's lots more on all of this at theverge.com. If you want to see all the remotes we talked about, you should watch this episode on YouTube. We'll also put some links in the show notes, but also, you know, read theverge.com. It's a cool website. If you have thoughts, feelings, questions, or TV remotes you desperately want to talk about, please email us, [email protected]. Tell us everything or keep calling the hotline 866-VERGE11. We're trying to answer at least one question on the show every week, but I think we're going to do a whole hotline episode soon. Keep sending all your thoughts and feelings. It's super fun to hear from you. We really love it. Thank you to everyone who has called in so far. This show is produced by Andrew Moreno and Liam James. Brooke Minter is our editorial director of audio. The Vergecast is Verge Production and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

• 1:30:46David Pierce?

  Neelai, Alex and I will be back on Friday to talk about Reddit, Threads, Barbie, Oppenheimer, everything else going on this week. We'll see you then. Rock and roll.

• 1:31:05Speaker 11

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