155: Why Won’t They Let You In? REAL Avoidant Attachment Truths | In the Trenches with Tom Stroud

In this episode, Sabrina sits down with Tom Stroud from Love Is Blind UK to tackle your biggest dating dilemmas—avoidant attachment, emotional intelligence, and why modern dating feels so polarized. They debunk myths like "if he wanted to, he would", discuss texting anxiety, and share personal stories of growth from avoidance to security. Want to submit your questions or profile to the show? Send in your text threads, your profile screenshots, or anything else to [email protected] for a chance to be featured on a future episode. Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! If you've ever felt like you're too much, not enough, or always chasing validation in dating or relationships, the Self Love Course gives you the tools to rebuild your worth from the inside out HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Get merch for The Sabrina Zohar Show HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formerly known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 0:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, babes. We're in the trenches this week. Let's fucking go. We're answering your questions. And guess what? I have Tom Stroud from Love is Blind UK. Don't worry, we don't talk a ton about the show. We talk about you guys. You wrote in, you sent screenshots, if you guys want to, in the trenches at sabrina zohar.com. But we are here to help. We're going to answer them all. And I'm so fucking excited and just grateful for you guys. Thank you to everybody for reading, reviewing, leaving a comment, anywhere you listen, Spotify, YouTube, I don't give a shit. Just leave me a heart. Let me know what you think. And if you need anything, I'm here. And guys, big news, big announcement. Now is the time. So at the end of this month, and if you're listening beyond this, sorry about you. We'll have new things coming. But at the end of this month,

• 1:44Sabrina Zohar?

  we have the self-love, the breakup, and the nervous system course are going to be gone for good. Now, what that means is if you get it now on sale, you'll have lifetime access. So it's not like it's ever going to be taken away, but you won't be able to purchase it beyond the end of the month because new things are coming. I have so many things in the works for you guys, a lot of things that are passion projects of mine that I really wanted to launch. And so now is the time. So join the courses if you want them. And if not, welcome to the family. Sit down, have a cup of coffee, and let's fucking get into it without further ado. Hey Tom.

• 2:12Speaker 03

  Hey Sabrina.

• 2:13Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm so excited to have you!

• 2:15Speaker 03

  Thank you, I'm excited to be here.

• 2:16Sabrina Zohar?

  Welcome from a very long side of the pond. This was a trip over just for me.

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Absolutely, just for you, yeah. So we're gonna do a week of filming and then I'm gonna go home.

• 2:24Sabrina Zohar?

  It's perfect, it's all we wanted to do. I'm so excited to have you. We are, guys, today, as always, is in the trenches. And we're gonna answer your questions and we're gonna go into it. And we're gonna help you. And the reason I wanted Tom to be here, obviously because I love you and I wanted you here, but because I think you have a lot of great insight to offer. And I think getting a male perspective that's in a different place, in a different country, that we can also see that it's the same shit everywhere, is gonna be really helpful. But before we get into that, I wanna know, could you share a little bit about you? And I think your journey is really interesting and fun because I think you had something that the average person doesn't necessarily have in the type of mirror that you had, but I'd love to hear from you. How'd you get here?

• 2:59Speaker 03

  Sure, alright, well, look, I mean, I've been dating on enough 25 years, right? I'm 40 this year. And I have an avoidant attachment style. Like, that's something which I came to realise a bit later on in my dating journey. And it was something that I had to kinda deal with. And it's like, what we'll talk about today is avoidance, right? But then I was lucky enough to get casted for a show called Love is Blind, which I'm sure you guys all know. Love is Blind UK, had an amazing time on it. My storyline was pretty polarising, you know? It was all about, yeah, like, gender roles and this provider mentality versus modern masculinity and all these kinds of big talking points. And yeah, from that, I ended up sort of interrogating a lot further, creating a podcast as well, because we love podcasting, which is all about male behaviour in dating and relationships, which pulls that stuff apart a lot.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  And yeah, and I also host a men's group, I have a men's group back home, where we sort of talk about this stuff, so.

• 3:48Sabrina Zohar?

  What have you been seeing? Because I think it's really interesting that even your storyline, right? Having to be that polarising, and like, I do think you got a bad edit, but that's like for another day and another conversation. But I think your story was also really exemplifying a reality that I think a lot of people do need to face, is that like, it's okay for people to do things differently. It doesn't mean that anybody is right or wrong or good or bad. It just means that maybe you're not compatible. That maybe the two things that you want, right, don't really go. But I was curious, and welcome to my brain. I'm like, God, I had like 17 questions. I'm like, which one do I want to go with first? But I was curious, what are you seeing now in dating after your experiences right now? Being more aware, really seeing things differently? What are you seeing in the dating world right now, being in it?

• 4:30Sabrina Zohar?

  And what, I'm curious too, like your avoidance, how it manifested and like in ways? Because I think a lot of people that are listening maybe misunderstand, right? And I was worried, like, didn't really understand what avoidance was or like the lack of understanding. So let's start there. What's dating like?

• 4:44Speaker 03

  Dating, certainly, I mean, I host dating events across my city. Back home, I have a podcast. I do dating Q and A's on my Instagram every single Sunday, predominantly for women. What I'm seeing more and more and more is that like genders in heterosexual dating are more polarized than they ever have been. Men and women just don't understand themselves. And this is very, very general, but men are kind of retreating into this hole, right? Where they're like, I'm not understood by women. I don't know what women want anymore. Am I meant to be the provider and approach first? Or certainly some of the guys that are a bit more, you know, in tune with things like boundaries and now like, is, am I even allowed to approach anymore? And so I think for a lot of guys, they're like, I'm just giving up. I don't know what I'm meant to bring to the table. And then the flip side is for, for the women that I, you know, speak to on the pod,

• 5:29Speaker 03

  the women that I meet at these dating events, they're like, I just want a guy that's going to step up, you know, like, I want a confident guy. I'm not looking for too much. I don't want six foot, blue eyes guy in finance or whatever it is. Like, I just want a guy that's emotionally available. And so this is it. There's a real challenge here. And a big part of my mission is about better communication, better understanding between the genders.

• 5:48Sabrina Zohar?

  I couldn't agree more. And I think if we're speaking in the heterosexual norms in that way, and then we have the LGBTQ community, and they have, everybody has their own challenges. Like, I don't think there's anybody that has it easy. I can say that. But I've noticed as well, like, I mean, obviously I'm not in the dating world directly, but like, I'm in it in a different way. I'm just not fucking, I was in it for long enough to not need to be back into it at this time. But I think what I've really seen is just like, to your point, I don't think anybody knows how to be, who to be. And we're scared because like, I'll be honest, I was scared to be myself because if I'm myself and that doesn't work, I literally don't know what else to do. And I'm curious, like, when you were in your heyday of your avoidance and you noticed, right? Like, okay, wow. Before you noticed it, one, how was it showing up? Like, what was your modality of handling it?

• 6:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Because I think everybody really is different. And then my next question would be, were you cognizant and aware of the impact that you were having on people?

• 6:39Speaker 03

  Right, so I love this because my awareness of it came from a quite unusual place. And it was, I was in a relationship with someone for six years, right? We lived together. She was amazing. She was literally the perfect person for me, right? She was like calm, very empathic. Her ability to listen and understand me was incredible. And she spotted my challenges, my issues before I did, right? And I mean, I won't go over it in a huge amount of detail, but my avoidance came from a lot of abandonment as a kid. And I didn't understand the relationship between not having a father and all the kind of male role models that I had in my life, leaving, disappearing, and how that translated into how I could have a romantic relationship with someone. It was her that spotted it because we were perfect on paper,

• 7:22Speaker 03

  but I just wasn't able to give everything to her. I always left a part of myself back. And so when we'd have arguments about, more often than not, my repetitive behaviour, so things like not wanting to talk about difficult moments, particularly around our sex life. My reaction was just, I'm just gonna step away from this. It's freaking me out. I don't, it's too much of, shining too much of a light on me. And that was the thing that ended up breaking us up. It was me that broke up with her, but it wasn't for any big reason. I just couldn't deal with this pressure that I created for myself in my head. And I remember her saying when we broke up, I hate your dad. I hate him. Because she could see where that had come from. And I was like, what the hell does that mean?

• 8:05Speaker 03

  And now, you know, fast forward six, seven years, I can understand it. So, yeah, I mean, it was a crazy journey. And from that moment, I then, rather than doing the work straight away, and a lot of guys will identify with this, I was like, right, I'm single. This is awesome. I have my freedom, you know? And so I went out and for a couple of years was like going out, shagged all of London, like, partying, honestly, there was no stone left unturned.

• 8:31Speaker 04

  I get that.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  And then about the, fast forward two, three years. And I was like, having these two, three month relationships with women and then being like, they're not right. And I just can't meet the right person. This is something every guy listens to this will identify with. I'm not meeting the right person. Why can't I find them? And then I was like, holy shit, it's not them, it's me. I'm the problem here. And then I just ended up doing a shed load of therapy and a shed load of my own reading. And that's what brought me to, yeah, the show, really.

• 8:59Sabrina Zohar?

  I appreciate, Juan, the honesty, so thank you for that. But I think the reason I wanted to have this conversation with you is because we see the other side of the coin. We see the villainizing of the avoidant. And everybody that listens knows I am not into villainizing any of the attachment styles because I wouldn't want someone to do that to me personally. And I think, though, okay, how do you feel about knowing where you were and being in that space when you hear the term, if you wanted to, he would?

• 9:22Speaker 03

  Hmm, I hate it.

• 9:24Sabrina Zohar?

  I fucking hate it.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  Despise it because it's like a rule or like, you know, it's this idea that every single man is the same and they're not. And when you look at avoidance, is it 40% I think of men identify as having an avoidant attachment style? It's exactly, it's as reductive as saying, I only want a guy 6'5" plus. You know, you're wiping out a huge percentage of men based off something which more often than not isn't their fault. Their fault in it lies in the action, in how they behave, and in probably not interrogating it enough themselves. But for a lot of these guys, I mean, we spoke about it just before we started shooting, they don't even know like where it comes from. They haven't done that work. And so a big part of my mission is helping guys understand this stuff better and not villainizing it.

• 10:08Speaker 00

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• 10:37Sabrina Zohar?

  I was the same even in the anxious world. I kept going around being like, I just haven't met the right person, right? I just, I can't meet the right person. Nobody wants to commit to me. I had my own narratives. I had my own siren song that I was singing. And it wasn't until I was like, no, girl, it starts and stops with you, right? Like, you need to show up differently. You can't be jumping down someone's throat. Because I had a lot of connections that actually probably would have been a lot more beautiful and been able to flourish if I wasn't coming in trying to have certainty and get that exactitude to the same of the avoidant being like, I need space, I need to... To keep them at a distance, but I wish more people understood that this isn't from a one, even a conscious place, but not from a place of malice. It's not about trying to hurt other people because I get that question every day of like, don't the avoidance know what they're doing? What is your thoughts to that?

• 11:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Do the avoidance know what they're doing?

• 11:23Speaker 03

  Absolutely not. And honestly, this, I feel like this term avoidance has become very popularized. Thanks to people like me, but and it's good to have that level of awareness, right? But people get it very confused with, I hear avoidance and narcissism get confused a lot. And it's like, just because a guy needs to take a bit of time for himself and maybe be selfish, like we all are, that is not narcissistic behavior.

• 11:47Sabrina Zohar?

  No, and I need the other side of the story too, because my next question is, okay, and how was I showing up? Because I've had men be like, I need space, I need space for me. And it's like, yeah, because I was calling him a ton, I was texting him a ton. My anxiety was through the fucking roof. I wasn't self-soothing. And again, it's not that I was wrong and he was right, but it's also about going, I played a part. I wasn't woe is me victim. Oh God, they all keep doing this to me. I had to take ownership of how I was showing up. That's very different than if I were dating a guy, like I dated a guy before I met Ryan. And when I, I would ask him just even something basic of just like a, a simple, like, hey, do you want to talk about that? Shut down. And you're like, okay, I was able to remove myself going, I didn't do anything here. Like if you're going to shut down simply because I ask like an emotion or a feeling,

• 12:32Sabrina Zohar?

  then I'm not going to own that versus things were going really well and I wouldn't stop. And it was being like beating this person down, then yeah, maybe that guy might need a day. No one's right or wrong, but it's about like, what are both people doing to stay present in this relationship and not disconnect consistently out of safety?

• 12:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly that. And what I'd add to that would be like, fucking, again, it's all this stuff. Like we're speaking so much cliches when it comes to dating, but like communication is so important. And I don't mean talking to each other, like you're meant to talk to each other. We need to hit each other, right? But what I mean about that is, I mean, I use this expression all the time, like radical candor, being totally honest with that person, even if you're worried that you're going to hurt their feelings. So if you're an avoidant and you are saying to a partner who you know adores you, wants to spend every waking minute with you, which I've never had, but I'm sure it's. Lovely. You have to say to that person, I need X, Y and Z. I need a couple of days out of this. All right. Or I need some space when I get back from work tonight. You know, that's going to hurt their feelings, but you say it anyway.

• 13:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  Because it's for the longer term is for the benefit of both of you and the health of your relationship. And equally for an anxiously attached person, you know, it's about saying like, I know you're going out tonight. I want to be absolutely clear that that's going to make me feel quite alone. And that's because of maybe the people that you're going out with, and I know it's irrational, but I just need to tell you how I feel. Because ultimately, if you don't say it's just going to build resentment and then it's going to explode. Like, it's really that simple.

• 13:55Sabrina Zohar?

  People sometimes will hear me ask Ryan or say things to Ryan, they're like, you say that to him? It's like, yeah, and he loves that shit. He loves the honesty because both of us. First of all, why am I going to hide things from my partner? Baby, you'll cry now, you'll cry later, right? Like, you get to choose. And when you self abandon, the crying is a lot more painful than it is if you just acknowledge, I don't think this person can handle. Now, there's a difference between like, you don't be an asshole. I'm not going to go up and be like, by the way, you look stupid today. TTYL. No. But if something really bothers me, like the other day, it was something in the moment and I was, his friends were over. And they were both sitting there and it's like, you know, when you're in public, you're trying to have decorum. And I, Ryan's like very, very task like, if he's on a task, get it done. He doesn't really understand. He doesn't see the outside world and we're working on that.

• 14:38Sabrina Zohar?

  And I was, I had something sticky on my hands and he was washing the dishes. So I came up to like, kind of throw my hands under and he had like a bit of a temper tantrum. Like he like stomped and he was like, I'm washing this. And I just looked at him and I was like, okay. And? And he was like, oh, there's soap now. And like in front of his friends. And I was just like, okay. We'll talk about this after. And I didn't say anything. And then later I just, I kind of looked at him and I said, hey, can I share something with you? And he was like, yeah, what's up? He was trying to be all cute. And I said, I don't want to ruin this moment because it is nice to reconnect with you. I said, but I'm going to be honest, it's not that you're not allowed to tell me that you want me to wait a minute. I was like, that's never the problem. I respect the fact that you're in the middle of the dishes. I said, but it's the way you said it. I was like, you acted like a petulant child. You stomped your foot. You literally gave me an attitude. And I was like, and I said, that's okay that you want that. I said, but speak to me like an adult and I will accept it like an adult.

• 15:23Sabrina Zohar?

  And he just looked and he was like, that's a very fair play. He was like, you're right. I, I didn't speak to you in the way that you deserve. Then we were able to high five, move on, kiss, move on with the day. There was no resentment. There was no anger. If I kept that in.

• 15:35Speaker 03

  Exactly. That's it, right?

• 15:37Sabrina Zohar?

  We all know what that would have looked like.

• 15:38Speaker 03

  But and also, right, this is a thing about tone. You can say things in different ways and they mean the same thing, but come across very differently. And so if he is now, and Ryan's a great guy, but if he then just works off that moment, it's like, right, I don't need to speak to Sabrina in that way anymore. I can speak to her in a different way, still getting my point across, but completely changed the dynamic of our relationship. Like, that's just easy. It's learning.

• 15:59Sabrina Zohar?

  A hundred percent. And that's why even like the whole, everybody does something different. Yes, that's why texting is different. And also texting has no tone. We have got to say, what are your thoughts on the texting and dating shit? Because you know I will die on this hill of texting and dating is like kind of ruining romance in that regard. But like, what do you think of if a guy doesn't text you every day, it's because he doesn't like you?

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Oh, again, I mean, it's very, very dependent on the person and the dynamic of your relationship. And also, I guess, like the precedent which has been set. Like, I think there is some logic in saying, if a guy comes on super, super strong, right? Or if it works the other way around, then, and you've got constant texting, and then it sort of starts to dry up a little bit. That might be an indication that maybe the interest is waning. But equally, I love it when I am dating someone and they're like, set some boundaries. Hey, I'm really busy. I can't text you every single hour. I might just drop you a text at the end of the day. I'm like, that is awesome, because I love independence in a partner. And I think that's really attractive when they're able to set those boundaries early on.

• 16:56Sabrina Zohar?

  There's a difference between a change in behavior, right? If you've set the precedence, and what happens, it's a dopamine, right? Then your body is like craving more. And then when you don't get it, intermittent reinforcement starts to set in. And then it's like, well, now we're like off the rails. But I think, you know, I remember when I first met Ryan, he set the boundary. He's like, I don't text every day. That's not an interest of mine. He's like, I have no problem. Like, I'll text, I'll call you, I'll FaceTime you. But I see this every day of, well, he didn't text me. Or I'll get the like, the dates are amazing. Everything's fantastic. But he's dry in between texts. And I'm like,

• 17:24Speaker 03

  Go off the date. Like, that's real. It's like, that's the person.

• 17:28Sabrina Zohar?

  That's the person. The texting is the version of who you're making them. Because I've had some friends that are shitty texters in person. I'm like, you're fucking awesome. But I gave them a tone, or I created that. Or half the time they're doing Siri and they're not even paying attention to what I'm talking about. But I'm glad we could debunk a few of these fucking, I think, frankly speaking, myths that are keeping people single for longer than they need to be.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  Totally agree.

• 17:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Shall we answer some questions?

• 17:48Speaker 03

  Let's do it.

• 17:49Sabrina Zohar?

  All right. So, hi Sabrina. First off, I want to say how much I appreciate, by the way, I don't read these prior. So this is our first. If I fuck up, I swear, this is a lie. I appreciate it.

• 17:58Speaker 03

  Lovely in the last episode.

• 18:01Sabrina Zohar?

  That hasn't even come out yet. I used to be avoidant in my last relationship and you've helped me get through that. I've been a lot better. Okay, now to my question. It's been a long time since I've liked someone, so I was super excited when I matched with someone and we hit it off. There are issues, though. He lives an hour and 45 minutes away, which isn't a big deal for me, but it is for him. It's too long of a distance for him to come see me during the week and his weekends are always busy. We've been talking for two months, but he won't carve out any time for us to spend time together, or if he mentions picking a date, he never falls through. He also never seems to know what his plans are until the day of. We met once, but it was my idea. I had a great time and thought meeting again would give him a kick in the ass, but it didn't. He keeps saying that we'll hang out, but I don't believe him. I really feel anxious and needy, constantly craving reassurance. I know I should break it off, but I'm stuck thinking, what if he gets better with time? What are your thoughts?

• 18:45Sabrina Zohar?

  How do I get the strength to let go of someone I'm attracted to? Thank you, Elena. Go on, what do you think?

• 18:51Speaker 03

  Like, why? Why are you creating this fantasy where you can try and like save or change someone? I don't understand that. The distance, it works for some people, but only if you are prepared to commit a significant amount of your free time to seeing that person. This person is not, right? So every single signal is telling you that probably not, there's not a huge amount of intent from him. I think the person that sent this question knows the answer to it.

• 19:12Sabrina Zohar?

  Answers on the question.

• 19:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 19:14Sabrina Zohar?

  I was gonna say, the reality versus the fantasy is what I'm looking at here. The reality that he's showing is, he's not showing up, he won't pick a date, it was your idea, he's not coming through, he's not following through, you don't trust him. It's like, okay, so that's all the stuff. Then what I see is the fantasy and the projection of, oh, no, no, but, right? And I get that. I've been there of like, oh, but if he just sees me, then he's gonna really like me. And really where I see that is like, that to me is the disconnection between the parts, right? Between being like a 15-year-old girl, being like, oh, maybe my dad will realize that like, I am a better kid if I act well, or if I do this, or but, maybe if I just do this, then they're gonna like me. Without looking at the reality, because at least for me, and I know for a lot of people, that disassociation, like with that limerent kind of fantasizing versus being in the present

• 19:57Sabrina Zohar?

  moment, is because being in the present moment, especially as a kid, is really difficult to accept that those are your parents. It's easier to fantasize about the life that you could have and where you could go, because that saves you from where you're at, and then you don't have to deal with this.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:08Sabrina Zohar?

  The problem is, the reality is, not even just the problem, the reality is... For this guy to change this behavior? What's involved?

• 20:16Speaker 03

  I mean, it's not gonna happen, not on that person's behalf. Like, it's not. You have to change for yourself. And so that's it, really.

• 20:23Sabrina Zohar?

  And it's said with a lot of love, too. Like, both of us, neither one of us want anybody to waste their fucking time and to be in something that seems futile. And if you're really anxious and needy, constantly craving reassurance, yeah, because this guy's not offering you any fucking safety.

• 20:35Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 20:36Sabrina Zohar?

  This guy's offering you nothing besides keeping narratives in your head, and you're creating a version of him. You met this person once.

• 20:42Speaker 03

  Hmm, yeah, exactly.

• 20:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Right.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  To your fantasy versus reality point, sometimes it's easier, and I say this again with love, to buy into a fantasy than it is to actually have the cold, hard reality.

• 20:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Of course.

• 20:51Speaker 03

  And the cold, hard reality is that you're probably gonna need to meet someone that's gonna meet your needs. That is, that's simple.

• 20:57Sabrina Zohar?

  And I would say, too, like, I would take a, like, old-school piece of paper and a fucking pen. And I would sit down and literally write, "What do I know to be true about this person?"

• 21:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 21:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Not, "What do I like about them?" Because, nah, I like the fantasy. What do I know to be true about this person? Maybe make that a line. And then it's like, because I could sit there and be like, "Oh, my God, they're so nice. What makes them so nice? What do I know to be true and factual?"

• 21:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:20Sabrina Zohar?

  "You know what makes them not nice?" Bailing on me. "You know what makes them not nice? The fact that it's always my idea that they won't carve any time." Here's a funny thing. There is nobody busier than someone that's not interested. Because you know what's funny? Homeboy has no problem, his weekends are always so busy, but he's not prioritizing you to fit you into his schedule.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Honestly, there are CEOs going on dates to Coldplay concerts with hot women. You know, if they can make time, he can make time.

• 21:44Sabrina Zohar?

  He can make time. That's the, okay, so this is where, if he wanted to, he would. This is where I understand the saying of the simplicity of it. Of like, he is, obviously, like, is not interested. I don't know that want necessarily is why. It might not, we don't know what's going on with this guy. We don't know if maybe, like, a lot of the times, too, it is really sad. But like, I've spoken to the men that do this. And like, one, they're like wildly unaware that the other person might even be thinking this much about them because they're like, "I have met this person once." But on top of it, they, a lot of the times, are like, dealing with their own shit. Of like, "I have an ex that I'm dealing with," or something. And I'm not saying it's okay. I'm not like condoning it and being like, "Oh, yeah, give him a free pass." But what I'm saying is, we don't know the situation. We don't know the why. So let's not try to pretend and try to figure it out because this person's not giving you anything to help you figure it out.

• 22:29Speaker 03

  Hmm, exactly.

• 22:32Speaker 00

  Born from the intensity of a night in the eternal city. Introducing Born in Roma Fragrances by Valentino. Feminine perfume Donna Born in Roma features juicy black currant, central jasmine, soft cashmerin and warm vanilla. Masculine leaning but unisex Womo has notes of fresh violet leaf, aromatic sage, green vetiver and mineral salt. Shop holiday gifts at macys.com.

• 23:01Speaker 03

  I would also say again, with love, if it's only been one day, that person doesn't really need to justify it. Like, it's only one day, right? And so, but again, it's that fantasy thing and people get really caught up in that, I think, sometimes. When you just get that flood of dopamine, when you meet someone amazing, you create a story before the stories have been started being told, you know, and...

• 23:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, I have the webs I've weaved.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:20Sabrina Zohar?

  I've thought of vacations, I've thought of future kids. Like, things that are just obscene, because like, you're just going off in this fantasy and it's so fun because when I read all the books and I get to create this world of the life I'm gonna live, because it's not about them, it's what it gives me.

• 23:34Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 23:35Sabrina Zohar?

  It's what it takes me from.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it almost dehumanizes the person on the other side of the relationship because you're not expecting human behavior, flawed behavior, you're expecting perfect behavior.

• 23:43Sabrina Zohar?

  And I will say, at the end of the day, this is where I would say, what are your choices? What are your choices? Because your choices are, yeah, you can keep engaging with this person, you can also walk away. You can also say, hey, well, I think you're really lovely, I'm looking for more intentionality and I think this is a big... I was having a conversation with my friend the other day, just about, we don't need to villainize just because it doesn't work, right? It can be, hey, this person's not giving me the energy that I need. That's okay, I have so many guys, people ask me all the time, you didn't block him? I got a ghost or reach out. A guy that I, we got on a couple of dates, we hooked up, it was like one of those things and we were chatting, chatting, chatting, texting, texting, texting. And I had found out some stuff, he had a substance abuse problem and I had had a sneaking suspicion. So when he did ghost, I kinda wasn't really shocked because when I found out after and I was like, you know, I moved on with my life.

• 24:25Sabrina Zohar?

  It was like, almost three years later and he messaged me, this whole apology thing.

• 24:29Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:29Sabrina Zohar?

  And people were asking like, you didn't block him? And I was like, why would I block? I didn't have any, I wasn't angry with him, I understood, he has his shit. Because that's when I knew I was growing, when I didn't have to internalize their behavior and make it mean anything about me, I was just able to go, well, that doesn't work for me.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh no, thank you.

• 24:46Speaker 03

  Oh, but that's honestly, if you can get to that point, then you are smashing it.

• 24:50Sabrina Zohar?

  You're dead.

• 24:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, honestly, I.

• 24:52Sabrina Zohar?

  It's hard.

• 24:53Speaker 03

  Right, it is.

• 24:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Took me years.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  Can I tell you a little story about my avoidant, which I realised literally over the last couple of days?

• 24:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Please do.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  So in LA, there is somebody, I'm not gonna call it by a name, but somebody who I met a couple of years ago when I was in Lisbon. Awesome girl. And for whatever reason, over the next couple of years, it's not worked out. She's been seeing people, I've been seeing people. She broke up with her partner fairly recently and we were both buzzing because I was gonna come to LA, right? And I'm an avoidant, so I want, I want you to remember that, people listening, watching. We made some plans, right? Which was, the minute I was gonna get off the plane, I was gonna drive to where I'm staying and then we're gonna grab a drink immediately because we were so excited about seeing each other. So anyway, get to LAX, pick up the hire car, get to my house, message her, no response. And I'm like, what's going on? Two hours later to get a response, sorry, I fell asleep, I had a really heavy night last night. I'm like, that's cool.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  You know, I think maybe some communication would have been nice. She says, what are your plans tonight? So I'm really jet lagged. My dream night would be maybe you and I just get an early drink and then get an early night. She's like, that's cool, I'm seeing some friends later, so it works perfectly. Don't hear from her again for another couple of hours, get a message from her at half eight. She's like, I'm so sorry it took me ages to get ready. Kind of shitty excuse.

• 26:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, come on.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  The reason I'm telling this story, there's a second part to it, is because as an avoidant man, my inclination is not to call her out, it's to be like, I don't care. Like, yeah, fine, you do what you want. Like, I'm, I've got a really busy schedule as well. Did not have a busy schedule. Sat out of the apartment by myself crying. Anyway, but she's like, as we spoke about, I've got the whole of Sunday free. We'd spoken about going for a hike up Runyon Canyon.

• 26:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 03

  So I was like, awesome, let's just call it a night and then we can spend the day together tomorrow. Wake up the next morning, fresh as a daisy. She messaged me at ten, she's like, hey, just a heads up, I'm going to a drag brunch today at one.

• 26:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Fine.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  Bike and meet you straight afterwards. And I was like, that's cool, let me know. But also in my head, I'm like, we made plans to spend the whole day together today. If you've now got a drag brunch, whatever, avoid it, man, didn't call her out about it. Goes to drag brunch, don't hear from her till about five. I spend the day by myself, drove down to Malibu, had a lovely day. At five, I get back and I'm like. Text her, what is your ETA and what's the plan tonight? Because she's kind of been fucking around. Don't hear from her till 8pm. And I, literally, that was the point where I was like, I just need to step up to this. So I left her a voice note and I was like, hey, you've been super disrespectful for my time. You haven't communicated properly. I'm only here for a week and you've made me basically change our plan for a whole day. It's really unfair. And she hadn't seen my point of view on it, but what I'd say to anyone out there is like, that kind of conflict, it's difficult to say, but it's a good thing.

• 27:21Sabrina Zohar?

  It's necessary because I was getting annoyed for you as I was listening to this being like, okay, there's the human, right? There's the human of, hey, I'm so sorry, I totally, or, oh my God, I double booked. I'm so sorry, can we change the time? Like, there are human moments of, I've had that of like, hey, you know, I had to cancel a date 30 minutes before because I had a work thing and the guy got mad at me. And you're like, all right, cool. No, thank you. We're allowed to have people be human.

• 27:41Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 27:42Sabrina Zohar?

  But I think, like you said, it's the kind of same of this of like, how long are you going to let someone waste your time for? Because you could have kept going and people pleasing and playing small of like, okay.

• 27:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, yeah, you do you. But you're saying, well, then your life matters more than mine. And I think we're equal in what matters and who's important here.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  Exactly that. I was like, why is your time more important than my time? You know? And, and that was it. And she could actually, once I'd laid it out to her, she was very much like, I'm so sorry, I actually see your perspective now. And, you know, she ended up coming over last night, didn't stay over just to hang out. And it was cool. And we've set up a date for this week and it was good. And even my avoidance, like prior to, if it was a few years ago, my response would have been like, I'm not fucking seeing you again. No chance.

• 28:19Sabrina Zohar?

  If she does it again, then that's that. It's like, I think then you know to close the chapter, but it's like, I think people are allowed to be people and it's about the communication. Ryan's done some stuff before, like he fucked up Valentine's Day.

• 28:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 28:29Sabrina Zohar?

  And like, I wasn't going to fucking hang him to the cross. It's like, no, we had the communication about it and we moved on with our fucking day.

• 28:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:35Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, let's get to another question and then I want to do a profile.

• 28:37Speaker 03

  Sorry about that ramble.

• 28:39Sabrina Zohar?

  No, I love the ramble.

• 28:40Speaker 03

  Let's see, let's see, guys.

• 28:41Sabrina Zohar?

  I love the ramble, yeah. Give me a follow up if you're like, and.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  Right, we're not, we're not getting married.

• 28:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, yeah. See you in Love is Blind, season two. All right, so I've been a huge fan of your work, listened to nearly all your episodes. I completed your foundation course, which was beyond incredible. I love the foundation. Thank you for creating such a valuable resource. Guys, go join now. Beyond that, I've read almost every book of your guests. Can't reach your ears where it's finished. Oh, they're the fucking best.

• 29:05Speaker 03

  Is this person called Sabrina Zuck?

• 29:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Is it me? "Spend time with the discomfort and immersed myself journaling and self reflecting. I'm fucking proud." Kay, here's where I'm at now. I am dating a kind and emotionally available guy, Justin, since the summer. He checks about 80% of the important boxes and meets my non-negotiables. He respects my boundaries, gives me space to heal, is patient, let's be me, me, communicates much better than any man I've dated in the past, and is open to growing in that area. Ah, sign me up. It's a big contrast to the toxic relationship I recently left, which taught me many overdue lessons. My struggle is this: I've always been drawn to emotionally unavailable partners, and now I'm unsure how to navigate a relationship with someone emotionally available. I get it. I'm also not physically attracted to Justin, and despite giving it time, the chemistry hasn't sparked. And I'm not referring to the bad spark that I've learned that is more avoidant, anxious struggle.

• 29:51Sabrina Zohar?

  I recall an episode where one of your guests shared how she wasn't initially attracted to her partner, but as the relationship deepened, so did her feelings. I'm worried if that could be the case for me if I'm forcing something that isn't here. I'm also in a weird spot because I typically had many of all of my anxious attachment behaviors in all my past relationships, and now I feel like I'm leaning towards more, towards avoidant attachment, not having an attachment personality disorder, so to speak. It's a very new thing for me. I'm usually the one wanting to rush things, and now I feel okay maintaining my life while incorporating a healthy-paced relationship. No, bitch, that's called growth. My question is this: how do I tell if the issue is my own discomfort or receiving emotional availability, if I need more time alone, or if Justin simply isn't my person? I feel like I'm missing something by potentially walking away from somebody who is really great. I'd love your insight on this for any possibly in the crunches. Warmly, Kristin.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 30:33Sabrina Zohar?

  I love this.

• 30:34Speaker 03

  Kristin has done the work.

• 30:35Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, she has.

• 30:36Speaker 03

  Clearly, they clearly understand their own brain. But when you were reading it out, my natural inclination is to say like, well, think about some of those childhood experiences, like those triggers. Like, what were the male role models that you had like? And were they people that made you feel naturally anxious? And is that then given you a mentality where that's how men are meant to act? And if they don't act like that, that makes you feel uncomfortable, you know? Because that's normally where a lot of that stuff comes from. But you can't take a broad-brush approach to this stuff. Like, there are a bunch of different reasons.

• 31:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Honestly, when I'm hearing here, I'll be honest, like, as I'm reading this, I think there's a difference between healthy equals boring, meaning you're not activated, meaning you're not up and down. My mama used to ask me with Ryan, she was like, "If he would ignore you for a day, would you be more into him?" And I was like, "Shut up, Ellen." Versus, I'm bored with this person, right? Like, I have had that. That was, I remember, because like when I first met Ryan, he was a little boring at first. Like, you could see, he's just like more closed off. But I kept seeing glimmers where I'm like, oh, he's really funny. Or like, he has a super goofy side. And I was like, where the fuck is that chained and hidden and locked in the depths of this person? And so for me, it was, I need to get to know him better. But the sex was fun, like, we were having fun, we were laughing. Like, it wasn't like I was leaving being like, oh, I can't wait to get home. That was always a my inclination.

• 31:51Sabrina Zohar?

  If I'm on the date with you and I keep looking at my clock, or I'm thinking, I'd rather be home with the dog, or I can have my toy and take care of myself, then there's, I'm not into this. And what I'm hearing here is like, and I'm really proud of her for stopping and saying, I want to make sure I'm understanding this and like being real with myself and not jumping until he's not for me. But I would say a couple of things. One, you're not actually turning avoidant. That's not how, there's a common misconception that the pendulum will swing and you go from super anxious and now all of a sudden you're super avoidant. Oftentimes what we see is that means that like, you're now, when we look at the nervous system ladder, if you're going from safety into sympathetic, and then you're going into dorsal, you're shutting down, which means we need to move you back up to the ladder to get to that safety. There's a difference between that versus, like she said, I'm okay.

• 32:36Sabrina Zohar?

  I like having my own life. I'm feeling like I'm a healthy paced relationship. I don't know that you're going avoidant. I think you're maybe waking up.

• 32:42Speaker 03

  That's how I would interpret a security.

• 32:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I was like, that's more secure.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, but maybe they're so used to feeling that anxiety and what comes with that anxiety is like the fireworks, the unpredictability, and that becomes normal.

• 32:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 32:52Speaker 03

  So maybe this is just a secure attachment to someone that, yeah, frankly, is a awesome guy.

• 32:56Sabrina Zohar?

  I think she's forcing it. I do, I see, after hearing this, I'm like, I get it. I know you're trying and I like, my heart goes out to like, give it a old college try. But for me, when the intimacy component, when I'm not even like wanting to remotely fuck you.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 33:09Sabrina Zohar?

  We're friends at that point. That's what differentiates me from wanting to be in a relationship with you versus being a friendship.

• 33:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:14Sabrina Zohar?

  Are we physical?

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Honestly, I've been in this situation before whereby I'm like, right, I've done the work now, like I deserve to have this very, very sort of like placid, secure relationship. And sometimes you can get confused and caught up on that. And I've dated people who like on paper have been perfect. Super respectful, funny, kind, just don't have the thing with them. And that's okay. Like, not everyone is gonna, you're not gonna have that with everybody. And that's okay to admit.

• 33:38Speaker 00

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• 34:07Sabrina Zohar?

  I met a lot of people that were great. We just, it was like, you're cool, you're great. Healthy doesn't mean you just need to settle. Doesn't mean you just take them because you're like, oh, he's consistent. It's like, no, no, no. You're allowed to say, oh, he's consistent, he's great. Okay, so this is what I want in a partner, but I also want somebody that makes me laugh a lot, that we could talk for hours, or that doesn't talk, right? For Ryan, that's probably what he wants, and he got me. But you know what I'm saying. What I'm hearing is another one of those like answers in the question in the sense of, I think if we're being honest with ourselves, I also look at the narrative in the story. It'd be one thing if she was like, I just don't believe anybody else is for me, and I've never met the one, and maybe he's... Then I'd say, this sounds like anxiety. But she sounds pretty clear. She sounds pretty level-headed of like, am I just looking for something that doesn't exist? And it's like, you're right, I don't want you to have a spark, I want you to have an ease.

• 34:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Where it flows and you feel really, like, even the hard conversations don't feel as hard. That's how it feels with Ryan. Where the hard conversations aren't the end of the world, and I feel comfortable, but I also want to fuck this person.

• 35:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. This whole settling thing is something I hear a lot of at the dating events that I go to, from women in particular.

• 35:10Sabrina Zohar?

  That they don't want to settle?

• 35:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, they're like, there are so little, so few good men out there. I'm tempted to compromise on what I'm looking for. And I don't know what to say to them. Honestly, I'd love your perspective on it, because my response is like, they are out there, like, you will know this better than I will, like, figure out where your non-negotiables are, and figure out whether any of those are the things that you thought were your non-negotiables are actually negotiable. Six foot plus, would you date a guy who's 5'11" if everything else was great? Yes, probably. Then it's not a non-negotiable, is it?

• 35:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Where we want to look at with settling is, is it morals, ethos, ethics?

• 35:41Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:41Sabrina Zohar?

  Like, I am not, if I morally believe in something, and this person believes in murder, okay, well, then we're probably not going to align, because I'm settling to be with somebody that clearly doesn't fit. Versus, I thought, you know, and I get it, I thought I was, like, I grew up in a household of, like, men take care of everything. Men are the, like, that was my dad, right? He was the provider, and it was, men take care of you, and you don't need to take care of your, like, you need to make your own money, but let somebody take care of you. And then now I have a partner that works for my company.

• 36:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:09Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm like, oh, wait, that goes completely against the norm. I'm not settling because it's like, sure. You know what? I could, I could go out and say, I only want the millionaire guy. And it's like, okay, you're gonna have to give up other things about what you like about him and what you want to get that.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:23Sabrina Zohar?

  That's okay. Maybe he's a little older, maybe he's a little this, whatever it is, but you're gonna have, there's a price to pay. It's a pie chart. Versus, am I settling because, well, he's nice. And you're like, yeah, but you don't have your conversations. You're bored when this person's in the room. You can't wait to leave. And it's like, don't settle just because they're there.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 36:40Sabrina Zohar?

  That's the difference for me. All right. We'll do a profile and then I'll end with a quick rapid fire.

• 36:44Speaker 03

  Woo.

• 36:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so here is Joe's profile. And so you guys will be watching, you'll be seeing what we see. So we're gonna go through each one. And then before we discuss it, I want you to give me one beat. So I'm gonna show you this first because it's the first time either of us are seeing this. So we have the first photo, guess how many takes this took.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 37:01Sabrina Zohar?

  Then we have that photo, then we have my greatest strength. I'm not afraid to apologize or admit to making a mistake.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Like it.

• 37:07Sabrina Zohar?

  We have that. A unusual skill, I hug books and fold my socks. And then we have this, then we have guess where this photo was taken. We have another. How to pronounce my name. It's Joe, J O, not J O E, not J O E L. It's two letters, J O. You could do it. Okay. Name three things you remember about this profile.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  The spelling thing was weird because that's not how you pronounce it. That's how you spell it. Those spellings all say Joe. So I got a bit caught up in that.

• 37:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay. What else do you remember? What do you remember about her profile or her?

• 37:34Speaker 03

  The good stuff, like the memorable stuff.

• 37:36Sabrina Zohar?

  No, no, anything, three things. What do you remember about Joe?

• 37:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 37:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Besides how to spell it, J O. I just did it. Besides that her name is not Joe. I apologize.

• 37:44Speaker 03

  I remember that her first photo was her looking a bit outdoorsy and trekking.

• 37:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 37:49Speaker 03

  Which was kind of cool. Wouldn't have it as a first photo.

• 37:51Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 37:51Speaker 03

  Because that's your entry point into that profile.

• 37:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Yep. What else did you remember?

• 37:54Speaker 03

  That was it.

• 37:55Sabrina Zohar?

  So, okay, thank you. And that's my point of a profile is you have seconds to make a memorable moment and you don't remember anything besides the misspelling of her name.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:04Sabrina Zohar?

  And the fact that the first photo wasn't great.

• 38:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:05Sabrina Zohar?

  The first photo being your back and your nature. I've seen nature. I've seen nature plenty of times. I don't need to see you in nature.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  Also, that's an interest, right? And sadly, the role of photographs in a dating app is to make you look attractive to the person. Put it in your interest.

• 38:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Put it in your interest. The second one, same thing is like, we have a lot of selfies or they see me, like a lot of just like kinda headshots.

• 38:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Selfie, selfie, and then non selfie. So we have, out of all of them, we have, I think, like, three to six are selfies.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Too many selfies.

• 38:34Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 38:34Sabrina Zohar?

  Too many selfies, you're beautiful. I can't really tell, like, I can see bits and bobs, but I have no, like, I love a full body. I appreciate the full body. We have one, but again, it's a selfie that's closed, and then that's it. So I would say the photos, none of them are like the most ideal photos that I've ever seen. You're too beautiful for me to not be able to see.

• 38:52Speaker 03

  I agree with that. I think my thing about photos and dating apps, a lot of the time, people are like, oh, if you have really nice, almost professional looking photos, it looks like you made too much effort and it's not authentic enough. I think get the best quality photos you can get because ultimately that is your front page. That's your, it's like a sales tactic, right? Sadly, and, you know, I would never get cringed out if someone had beautiful photos.

• 39:11Sabrina Zohar?

  No, and I will be honest, there's nothing in here that is getting to know you.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so you say that you hug books and fold socks. It's like, okay, I don't know if that's an unusual skill.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:21Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't think, what's unusual, it's not a skill, that's just a preference. You hug books and you fold your socks.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  Which is wonderful.

• 39:26Sabrina Zohar?

  That's fine, I ball them up, you know?

• 39:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:28Sabrina Zohar?

  How am I getting to know you? What about that makes me go, I need to date J O? See, I got, I did it.

• 39:33Speaker 03

  J O!

• 39:34Sabrina Zohar?

  J O. And then saying, my greatest strength, I'm not afraid to apologize or admit making a mistake. It's like, so you take ownership?

• 39:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:40Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, great, so I'm glad, that's good, I'm glad you take ownership. What about you?

• 39:44Speaker 03

  This is it, right?

• 39:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Can we see your profile?

• 39:46Speaker 03

  I, yeah, I'm happy to.

• 39:47Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's see it.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  Right.

• 39:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's see, let's do an example.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  Roast me hard.

• 39:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's go, this is my first time seeing it.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  There we go there.

• 39:53Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 39:54Speaker 03

  I've never done this before and I'm so.

• 39:56Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm excited, I'm excited, cause I think auditing profiles, so Ryan and I do this like as a service, like, people can send theirs in and purchase it, so we give it private. But we have had so many people that are like, holy shit, I did not expect you guys to lay in on me like that, in like a good way. They're like, thank you for all of the feedback, cause it's like, we want, I had one guy write back and he was like, I haven't gotten any matches though, and we're like, yeah, but that's the point. It's like, you weren't getting quality matches, so we're weeding people out, so you don't waste your time. I can't control the people that are gonna come, but I can control how you show up.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  Right, exactly. Honestly, go hard.

• 40:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 40:29Speaker 03

  Go real hard.

• 40:30Sabrina Zohar?

  All right.

• 40:30Speaker 03

  There's some really cringe stuff on there, but hey.

• 40:34Speaker 00

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• 41:03Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, so we've got first photo, okay, my biggest date fail, getting catfished by a 50-year-old Ecuadorian man called Aldo.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's Luis, right? Lucky guy.

• 41:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay, then we have your second photo, we've got Sunny's photo, which you're gonna have to send these to me so we can have them pop up. The key to my heart is dad jokes. Ask me about what I think about windmills, big fan.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  Big fan, do you get it?

• 41:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Of course I do. Bad dad joke. Okay, then next one, let's debate this topic, because love's truly blind, okay.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  Just wring it out, that's all I can get.

• 41:31Sabrina Zohar?

  I was gonna say, my only feedback, I actually really like your prompts, because it gives me a lot to talk about.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly.

• 41:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Is love really blind? Because then if people have no idea, you're like, okay, this is gonna be a fun conversation.

• 41:40Speaker 03

  That's what I like.

• 41:41Sabrina Zohar?

  And then I love the dad jokes, this is like, that, I can be like, okay, because I have one. I will say, though, this, I actually don't know anything about you, though.

• 41:47Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:48Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't know any, Mr. Avoided, I don't know anything about you. I don't know anything about you, I only know that you got catfished, I know that you like dad jokes, and I know that love is blind, right? But I don't actually know anything about who Tom is. Your first photo can be so much better, because here's the thing, I look going, which one is he? And then I don't want to have to scroll down to find out you're the ugly one. I'm saying...

• 42:08Speaker 03

  For truth, that's...

• 42:09Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, I'm saying what everybody wants to...

• 42:10Speaker 03

  That one's got me right in the solar plexus.

• 42:11Sabrina Zohar?

  I know, I would say the suit photo, actually, you're more attractive in person than that photo. I would say lead with either, you and Ben, love Ben, I would lead with either the beach photo, that's a really flattering one, or that photo, the one of you leaned up against.

• 42:24Speaker 03

  That's the one I get the most likes on.

• 42:25Sabrina Zohar?

  That one I would lead with, because I can see full body, I can see that you're fit, like, I can see what we're dealing with, and add more about you.

• 42:33Speaker 03

  So this about me thing is interesting, right? Because there are two schools of thought to this, and I'm like, right, this is gonna show that I have a bit of personality, that I'm a funny guy, and also to JO's profile, there are things you can jump off quite easily.

• 42:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, there are conversation fodder.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, what's your favorite dad joke? Or, I also got catfished by an Ecuadorian man called Aldo, you know? Who knows?

• 42:52Sabrina Zohar?

  The only thing is, where are you gonna go with this thing? Because that's the problem, is like, so they go, what's your favorite dad joke? I can give you mine, what do you call a pile of cats?

• 42:59Speaker 03

  Don't know.

• 43:00Sabrina Zohar?

  A mountain.

• 43:01Speaker 03

  Mountain.

• 43:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Ew.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  They'd be like, oh my god, that's so funny. Also, I love hiking.

• 43:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, but you, see, that's the thing. The onus is then back on to you to keep the conversation going.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 43:10Sabrina Zohar?

  That's why we always are like, when we're talking about prompts, is you want it to be able to feel where it could be back and forth, where you're not like an ADHD kid being like, what do you call a pile of cats? A mountain? You like hiking? And you're like, wait, what? Where did, how did you, are you me?

• 43:23Speaker 03

  That is such a Sabrina Zohar response.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  You're hiking? Mountains are awesome. Mountain dew, have you tried? It's amazing.

• 43:30Sabrina Zohar?

  It's all of it. I could just go off. That would be my only feedback because I feel like you could clean house if people saw you. It's just, I think, lead with a more flattering photo. You are so much more handsome than that.

• 43:41Speaker 03

  I'm gonna change it, because I'm gonna, I'm gonna get that.

• 43:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah, no, we're gonna.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  After this episode, no.

• 43:44Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, no, we and Ryan, over dinner, we're gonna talk about this.

• 43:47Speaker 03

  Right, okay.

• 43:47Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, rapid fire. You ready? Let's end the episode with this. Okay. Can guys pick up, and these are audience questions. So you guys know, I didn't make this up. You guys wrote these in. Follow the Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram if you guys want to write in more, because I do question boxes for our guests. So, can guys pick up on the worry if the woman is running out of time because we want to have children?

• 44:05Speaker 03

  100%, yes. And that's why you see a lot of guys, particularly guys my age dating younger. Like, sorry, brutal, but it's true.

• 44:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah. I was gonna say, ah, it's like anxiety. I used to think I was hiding it. I wasn't fucking hiding it. I think I'm hiding it now and I'm not. Come on, let's get real. And it's not in a negative or a positive way. It's funny, my brother, he'll turn 40, he's 23 this year. Fuck, he's getting old. Fuck. Anyways. And I remember asking him once, I was like, you know, what is your age group on dating apps? And he was like, I go up to 34. And I was like, why not beyond? And he was like, because I don't want to waste anyone's time. He's like, I don't want kids right now. And I'm very clear. And he's like, and almost every single woman, unless it's explicitly stated on her profile, says, I want children. And he's like, and I have more respect for that than anything. I don't want to waste it. And so I would say, be very real. If you want kids, don't hide it.

• 44:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Because then, my business partner, he, one day, I swear on my life, he turned 40. And he called me one day, my old business partner, and it was his 40th birthday, and he called me the next day and he's like, I'm ready to have kids. And he went out with a woman. They, both of them were like, I'm ready, I'm ready. They both liked each other, got married within eight months, now they have three kids.

• 45:06Speaker 03

  Good on them.

• 45:07Sabrina Zohar?

  And it was because they were both like taxicab, right? The yellow theory that when someone's ready, that when your proximity and timing matter.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 45:15Sabrina Zohar?

  I've had incredible connections in the past. I wasn't in the right place.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I got asked this last week on Instagram and I was, I buy into it so much.

• 45:22Sabrina Zohar?

  I do.

• 45:22Speaker 03

  You know, because it works both ways, right? I've been with amazing people that if I was with an, not that I think you should have regrets. If I was with that person now, it would be a forever kids, family thing.

• 45:32Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, it just wasn't the right timing. That doesn't mean I have to go back and try to change it. That means I can accept it and move on. Okay. How to tell if a shy guy is interested or just being polite?

• 45:41Speaker 03

  I mean, just communication. Like if you think he's a shy guy, just ask him. You can ask someone in a certain way about intent, right? Like I always say, should there be a male female dynamic? Is it up to him to wait until he expresses his interest? Why not say, hey, we've been hanging out a bit. You know, I do have some romantic feelings towards you. I just wondered if they're reciprocated or not.

• 46:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, or of like, I'm struggling to read this. Are you shy or are you just being, am I misreading this that this is more romantic than it is?

• 46:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:06Sabrina Zohar?

  Whatever it is, I respect it. I had that. I had a guy I was friends with and he was a kind of a shy guy, like of the group. And I couldn't read it. We hung out like three or four times and like there was a sexual chemistry, but I didn't know if there was. And I was like, I'm single at the time.

• 46:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:19Sabrina Zohar?

  And one day I remember we were supposed to meet up and I called him and I was just like, hey, I said, this is going to determine this because he was like, let me, you want to like take me to the hospital? It was like a whole thing. I think I needed to go somewhere and I needed like an emergency. And I was like, because I had my neighbor that was going to take me. And I said, this is going to determine. I was like, are we romantic or are we just friends? And he was like, I see you as more a friend. I said, great, then don't worry, I'll see you tomorrow. I'll have my room. I said, I'll have my neighbor take me. I don't need you to take me. I was like, you don't need to leave where you're at. I was like, if we were dating, yes, I think I'd lean more on you. And then from there we were like, then it was out in the open and we could move on with our lives.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  Well, exactly. But can I just say, people get so caught up in that and they're like, right? I don't want to ruin our friendship by admitting that I have romantic feelings. You do it the right way and the right tone is say the right thing and have no impact either way.

• 46:59Sabrina Zohar?

  And there's also a reality of like, it's also okay if you're like, I can't be friends with them. If I have romantic feelings for the time being, doesn't mean forever. You could be for a couple of, like, hey, whoa, I realize I'm having feelings, like, I need to remove myself and I'll be back.

• 47:11Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 47:11Sabrina Zohar?

  That doesn't mean it has to be, but like, allow both of you to have the space.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  Right.

• 47:15Sabrina Zohar?

  All right. What do you think of a profile that says, "Searching for long-term relationships and fun casual dates"?

• 47:21Speaker 03

  So this is something that guys get vilified all the time, whereas like, looking for long-term, short-term also okay, or like, words to that effect. And I hear women all the time saying, "Why does he want something casual? Like, shouldn't he be committed to long-term?" It is possible to have a fleeting, amazing experience with someone and it not be a forever thing. That's okay. Let's just normalize that stuff.

• 47:37Sabrina Zohar?

  I got yelled at for making a video about that.

• 47:39Speaker 03

  Really?

• 47:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Of not everyone, some people are in your life for a good time, not for a long time. And saying, like, "I've been in a time where I wasn't in a place that it was at the mental capacity." And people were like, "Yeah, we're using people." Like, "Do you think I was aware of it at the time? I had no idea, but we had a good time and both of us parted ways and it didn't need to be more."

• 47:58Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 47:59Sabrina Zohar?

  Sometimes it really is just like, "This was really fun. You're not my person."

• 48:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:01Sabrina Zohar?

  "But thank you for this great."

• 48:02Speaker 03

  Exactly. You can be looking for your forever person and still have fun. Like, they're not mutually exclusive.

• 48:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Because here's a spoiler alert. There are a lot of profiles for women that say they want casual. As if like, only men want casual. And I'm like, there are a lot of women that want casual too, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think everybody can have their fun and their life. Just be honest about it.

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 48:24Sabrina Zohar?

  And then, yeah.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  Can I just say one thing? Like, my whole thing is about like, right, let's improve the relationship between men. Men need to stop vilifying women that are looking for something casual, as if it's dirty or shameful, because it's not. If we were all more honest about our intention, it would make the whole dating scene so much easier.

• 48:39Sabrina Zohar?

  And same thing, I say with the women to the men in this regard, if we're talking heterosexual norms, again, you know, include whatever, the male-to-male in the gay community, female-to-female, they-to-they. But I think something as well is like, women villainize and vilify guys of like, "He's 43, still figuring it out." And it's like, you don't know his story. Maybe he just got divorced and has three kids and is trying to figure out what the fuck he wants in his life. Maybe this guy's parent just passed away and he was realizing that, here's the beauty of it, you could just keep scrolling.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:09Sabrina Zohar?

  You don't have to figure that. You can just say, "No, thank you. I only want to match with people." That's the beautiful thing about boundaries.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  Great.

• 49:15Sabrina Zohar?

  All right. How do you meet people in real life? Any tips?

• 49:18Speaker 03

  Oh, good one. I mean, like I said, I host dating events across my city and these things, dating apps are dying. Like you see, honestly, all of the numbers, like the stock prices of Match Group, et cetera, et cetera, they're all plummeting. And that's because people are fed up with online. They wanna meet IRL and it's a city-based thing, but in every single major city now, there are incredible events that you can go to where everyone there, first is single, secondly has intent, right? So like that would always be my starting point. But what I always say to people as well is like, if you're looking for shared values or shared interests, then the place to find a partner might be within one of those interests.

• 49:55Sabrina Zohar?

  In that circle.

• 49:55Speaker 03

  So I don't wanna use run clubs as the example because it's a bit of stereotype, but it could be anything, right? Like paint and sip, book club, whatever it is. You already have that advantage and that shared interest.

• 50:04Sabrina Zohar?

  That's I feel like put yourself into the community. Like I don't drink alcohol. It's just not my thing. So why am I gonna go to a bar?

• 50:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:09Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm like, what am I gonna do there? It's like, I'm not gonna go to like a fucking motorcycle meetup if I don't ever ride a bike. Like, it doesn't make sense. But like, the funny thing is, I was, when I moved to Venice, I was all about it. I was in height club. I was in every fucking club you could imagine. I was in Eventbrite all the time. Like, anybody I could, I'm like, because you have to make new friends and get out there. And I still met my fucking partner on an app. I still met dudes where all of a sudden, like a week later, I'd be like, oh, I found them on Hinge, even though I met them in person. I think for me, I understand, like, I'm with people being like, I wanna get off the apps. Great, go out and have experiences. But I also think the apps, like, they are a yes and, right? Like, they're not the only way to date. You can have it where you go on at night, once a night, just to be like, oh, oh, this guy's cute. And yeah, he's not a runner, but he's a lifter. And I have never been to a gym, so I would never have met this person.

• 50:51Sabrina Zohar?

  I would say, interject yourself into the community and things and people that you like to do, and also just be open-minded of where you're gonna meet this person. It could be through a friend. It could be that you go to the group meet and that your friend's brother is single. You never know.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 51:03Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, last question. What is, does emotional intelligence look like to you?

• 51:07Speaker 03

  Oh, I love that question. I do know I've never been asked that before. Let me have a bit of a think about it. So for me, it's about, it's a very broad topic, but it's about understanding your own behaviors and where they come from. So like, for me, I had certain really damaging behaviors in my dating life. You know, when you think about avoidance, a lot of stuff I took about my podcast around things like ghosting, abandonment, fearing rejection, all that kind of stuff. And they were either things which I would hurt other people with in terms of behavior, or things which would hurt myself. Emotional intelligence for me is understanding where they come from and then having the ability. To long term, try and change them.

• 51:42Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I emotional intelligence personally is like the ability to be able to articulate what they're experiencing in the moment, the ability to emotionally regulate and come back to the present moment, the ability to communicate even through difficult times and emotions like that to me is emotional intelligence, the ability to be able to articulate where they're feeling, what they're feeling, to hold space for my emotions as well. Like, I think it's such a multi-layered conversation, but something that.

• 52:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, this is the other thing. I would describe myself as quite an emotional intelligent person, but my is selective. So there are certain emotions, which anger, for example, which I'm not very good with because of a lot of stuff that happened in my childhood and embracing some of those more negative emotions and being more comfortable in them is another form of intelligence for me.

• 52:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Agreed. I think that's a part of also the compassion and the curiosity and God, you and I could talk for another fucking hour.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  Let's do it.

• 52:33Sabrina Zohar?

  Ugh, Tom, thank you for joining us. All right. Let everybody know what your podcast, whether I was on, where can they find you, all the fun stuff and I can they still slide into your DMs?

• 52:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. So I'm hideously single now, which is nice. It's really good. I'm embracing it. But so Sabrina was on an episode, Why Do Men Love Boom?, which was all around love, my podcast called Why Do Men? It's all about male behavior and dating a relationship. It is flying at the moment, which is really, really good. And I'm really excited about it. I also has the Mings Group for those guys listening called Shoulder to Shoulder. Find me on Instagram at Stroud Tom, easy one to look for.

• 53:04Sabrina Zohar?

  And we'll link everything. And guys, again, just an FYI, if you did message Tom and you tried to slide in his DMs, please know it's not personal. It's just that there's a lot of inundation and even for me, like I miss so many messages. It's not personal. Sometimes it's just not, you might not get a response back and that's okay, baby. Shoot your shot.

• 53:21Speaker 03

  I just, I do try and read every single DM and, you know, but it's just difficult to respond to them.

• 53:26Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, thank you, guys. I appreciate it. Tom, thanks for being here.

• 53:29Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, you're so welcome. Thank you.

• 53:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Till next time, guys.

• 53:37Speaker 01

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