510 - We're So Real

On today’s episode, Karen covers the letters-to-Santa scammer, John Duval Gluck. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Watch full episodes of My Favorite Murder on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Karen Kilgariff?

  This is exactly right.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello and welcome.

• 0:54Karen Kilgariff?

  To my favorite murder.

• 0:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 0:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 0:57Georgia Hardstark?

  And it is the holiday season.

• 0:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yay.

• 1:01Georgia Hardstark?

  We decorated, except by we, I mean not we. Other people decorated.

• 1:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Molly, our producer decorated.

• 1:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 1:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Gorgeous.

• 1:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Looks so pretty.

• 1:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It looks really nice. There's a kind of, it has like an ice skating vibe.

• 1:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Right?

• 1:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. What are you looking forward to with our little holiday break coming up?

• 1:22Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't wait to see Melania's decorations. I can't wait to see what she's doing to bring the spirit of the season into the White House. I can't wait for those cookies that are peanut butter cookies with Hershey's Kisses on top.

• 1:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Do you know I got a Seas Advent Calendar? Vince got me a Seas Advent Calendar.

• 1:44Karen Kilgariff?

  With different candies and every day?

• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Every day has a different Seas Candy. It's the cutest thing I've ever seen.

• 1:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the best.

• 1:51Georgia Hardstark?

  But you know what?

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you bring me candy?

• 1:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Vince went into the Seas Candy at the Americana and there was a murderino working.

• 1:58Karen Kilgariff?

  What?

• 1:58Georgia Hardstark?

  And she and her sister. You see how heavy that was? Erica and Sylvia, and I think Sylvia worked there, gave us a fucking bag of straight up Seas Candy.

• 2:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh my God.

• 2:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Smell it. Just put your face in there. No, actually, maybe don't do that. That's germs.

• 2:18Georgia Hardstark?

  And there's one right there that's caramel and marshmallow. I kind of tell by looking out what they are now.

• 2:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I'm pretty good at it.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 2:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I think there's circular ones I don't know as well because they're usually truffly. But sorry, there's like, there's a square one over here. Can I eat it?

• 2:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, do you want to eat it?

• 2:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I can't. God damn it.

• 2:35Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know why I gave it to you before we started. Like, I should have given this to you before.

• 2:38Karen Kilgariff?

  I put it right there. Sylvia, Erica, thank you so much.

• 2:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Thanks, y'all.

• 2:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the best news of all time.

• 2:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, except.

• 2:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Friends at Seas?

• 2:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Two hours. Yeah.

• 2:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Friends at Seas.

• 2:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Friends at Seas are.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I got a box of Seas from my accountant. Like, you know, when you get a gift at Christmas?

• 2:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 2:57Karen Kilgariff?

  And it was just a one-pound box of Seas. I opened it. I was like, oh, that's really nice. I opened it. I was like, am I going somewhere? Should I give that?

• 3:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was like, oh, no, I'm fully free to eat this at will.

• 3:08Georgia Hardstark?

  A Seas candy box to yourself.

• 3:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Poke your finger right through the bottom.

• 3:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Eat a bite of each of them.

• 3:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Never eat one you don't want again.

• 3:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my god.

• 3:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It was a dream.

• 3:17Georgia Hardstark?

  That is one of the struggles with being married, I think, is having to not look like a raccoon when you're midway through a Seas candy box. And like, I don't want Vince. Because in my family, you take a bite and you put it back. Like, you open it and there's, so everyone can taste them. And Vince is like, what are you?

• 3:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You just said, I was smelling it and you're worried about germs.

• 3:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That's true. That's true. Family germs are the same.

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what you're getting with those people.

• 3:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Actually, this is a good segue. I have a holiday pick-a-side.

• 3:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, perfect.

• 3:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want to do it real quick?

• 3:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I love it. What a way to celebrate.

• 3:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? So, we do a pick-a-side where we just tell people if they're right or wrong and argue about it. So, here's a good holiday one. This is a DM on Instagram from Chantel. "My family has always made present opening a big deal, and it's important not to rip through them all and take the time to say thank you after each gift. Multiple people can open it once, but once you have it open, you show the group, say thanks, and move on. My partner's family thinks that it takes too long and will open multiple presents without telling anyone what he got. It's not to be rude, and he is thankful. However, it messes up everyone's vibe, and I want to know what you got. Hopefully this year, we can come up with a game plan before opening begins."

• 4:31Georgia Hardstark?

  The amount of emotional Tetris we put ourselves through to like not be like, that sucks, you shouldn't do that.

• 4:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like they don't understand what Christmas is.

• 4:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 4:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Because Christmas is, yes, you're no longer eight years old.

• 4:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:44Karen Kilgariff?

  But Christmas is being excited about the box, trying to figure out what someone might have given you.

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Opening it up, it's a planner, you're like, thanks.

• 4:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Say thank you.

• 4:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And then you go through it because it's still a gift.

• 4:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 4:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And you're still, but you're waiting for the big one.

• 5:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Or whatever. And that is just the, like, isn't that the tradition?

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  I think not doing the rules of the family whose house you're at is weird.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, whatever it is, if you're there, you follow their rules, or it's weird.

• 5:14Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, I think, I don't know, if someone has a, is diametrically opposed to how you celebrate a major holiday.

• 5:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Then it is like, what camp is that?

• 5:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:25Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, it's almost like everyone got up, like, the second you're done with presents, you just go watch TV in your room.

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, what's happening?

• 5:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 5:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't you wanna?

• 5:33Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that, I wonder how many of these we've done that are like, you should break up. That they're asking for legit advice, and we're just like, that's not the right person for you then.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Or maybe, like, if that's kind of like more his speed, he gets to do that at home, and then when he's somewhere else, or when he's at that house.

• 5:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, of course, but we shouldn't have to tell him that. He should, if he doesn't know that.

• 5:55Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you're right.

• 5:55Georgia Hardstark?

  We shouldn't have to tell him.

• 5:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't think this is, uh, there's a side here.

• 5:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I think that this person's doing, what is it called? Emotional gymnastics.

• 6:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, oh.

• 6:05Georgia Hardstark?

  To, to like, not be like, this really upsets me, and I don't like it, and it's okay if I don't like it.

• 6:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 6:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You know what I mean? Without me being, me saying he's bad, or, you know.

• 6:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, because maybe it doesn't even really upset you. It's just like, what are you doing?

• 6:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Why would you want to do it that way?

• 6:20Georgia Hardstark?

  It's okay, he's gonna be mad.

• 6:21Karen Kilgariff?

  I think that's like the basis of every fight, is why are you, why do you want to do things this way?

• 6:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 6:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You're the one doing it. Like, is this pleasant?

• 6:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Are you getting more out of this than you would if you just, like, followed the rules of the family that you're at?

• 6:35Karen Kilgariff?

  You have to go off and privately open, maybe it's somebody that's, gets embarrassed and can't talk about their feeling of, like, spotlight embarrassment.

• 6:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it can be really awkward and, like, embarrassing to have it on, the spotlight on you, but...

• 6:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, if you're not grateful, it looks like it.

• 6:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Or some storyline, maybe.

• 6:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh shit, we're empathizing now.

• 6:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want to hear mine?

• 6:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:58Karen Kilgariff?

  This one is, it says DM on Instagram from Nastasia, but that's spelled N A S T A S S I A. And the first S is a dollar sign.

• 7:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, girl, I got it.

• 7:09Karen Kilgariff?

  We've got a baddie on our hands. And it says, December baby here. My birthday is on the 28th of December. I've always believed that I deserve Christmas and birthday presents. My friend's sister shares the same birthday and they give her conjoined Christmas birthday. To me, that's crazy. I wholeheartedly believe that December babies deserve double presents for being born around the holidays. Changed my mind? No way. I'm standing ground.

• 7:33Georgia Hardstark?

  That's fair.

• 7:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm standing my ground.

• 7:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone gets a Christmas and a birthday. Why shouldn't you? I would just wait a couple of days, you know, after Christmas to do it.

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 7:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Or like before, do it before or after?

• 7:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Double presents is a given.

• 7:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Or like, but if it's like not, then the present is like fucking better than everyone else.

• 7:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's always a bike. It's always a 10-speed bike.

• 7:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It's always a motorcycle. Yeah.

• 8:00Karen Kilgariff?

  It's one of those motorcycles that kids can ride on the street now. They don't need helmets and they don't need.

• 8:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Terrifying.

• 8:06Karen Kilgariff?

  There's no, yeah.

• 8:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I think that's fair to want both those things.

• 8:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 8:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Your birthday week is Christmas. That's fucking bullshit. And Christmas would want presents if it was your birthday that everyone was celebrating.

• 8:18Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  So.

• 8:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And also Christmas would want more attention if everyone was paying attention to you. While Christmas sat in the corner.

• 8:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I would have a New Year's birthday party. That would be fun.

• 8:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, just like build the momentum all the way.

• 8:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Just to follow that up, should we give our December donation?

• 8:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Speaking of giving and presents.

• 8:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Do it. So as you might know by this point, we've had a holiday tradition for the last three years where we make donations throughout the month of December, giving to charities that make a real difference in people's lives.

• 8:47Georgia Hardstark?

  So today we're donating $10,000 to Feed the Children. They're dedicated to ending childhood hunger here at home and around the world.

• 8:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Feed the Children provides food, school supplies, clean water, household and hygiene essentials to help families thrive. And in 2024 alone, they distributed more than 80.6 million pounds of food and essentials across the United States.

• 9:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible. If you'd like to join us in supporting their work, head to FeedTheChildren.org. And if donating isn't possible right now, you can also explore volunteer opportunities at FeedTheChildren.VolunteerHub.com.

• 9:19Karen Kilgariff?

  There's always a way to give.

• 9:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Love that.

• 9:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. Well, we have a network. Do you want to talk about it really quick before we get into this? This is a solo episode, so we just get our business taken care of.

• 9:28Georgia Hardstark?

  So, real quick on the Exactly Right Network, this week on the Knife, Hannah and Paysha look into a 2017 tip about a suspicious coworker that led FBI agent Mark Hassbacka to expose a serial con artist. They break down how he uncovered her long-running scheme.

• 9:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, over on Brief Recession, Michael and Melissa sit down with political satirist Walter Masterson for a sharp, lively conversation about politics, performance, and the art of calling out the absurd.

• 9:54Georgia Hardstark?

  And on Dear Movies I Love You, Millie and Casey take a look at the very best films of 2025, their favorites of the year, standout first-time watches, and what they think 2026 will bring.

• 10:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, if you're looking for a last-minute gift, the Exactly Right store has everything you need to make the holidays merry and fright. Check out our new Skeleton Santa unisex crew neck. Who's got it?

• 10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  I got it. This is so good.

• 10:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I feel like you could wear this year round and just be like the coolest kid.

• 10:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Entirely. There's just the whole vibe of it.

• 10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  If you wore that to an ugly sweater party for Christmas, you'd win.

• 10:29Karen Kilgariff?

  You'd win, hands down. There's also the skeleton ornament.

• 10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I have him.

• 10:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah, the little guy. He's precious.

• 10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  You want to put him on our tree?

• 10:36Karen Kilgariff?

  The skeleton ornament is going to turn out to be like an heirloom that gets passed down.

• 10:41Georgia Hardstark?

  It works.

• 10:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Perfectly in front of the other one. That's the way you do it.

• 10:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Toxic masculinity ornament?

• 10:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's a beautiful ornament, and it looks very fragile, but it's actually not.

• 10:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Does it look to you like, I realized, I saw the video the other day, and it looks like the Baby Bell cheeses.

• 10:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, that'd be so... Baby Bell cheese as an ornament is such a good idea.

• 11:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:04Karen Kilgariff?

  They've got to have that.

• 11:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Like some kind of... Okay.

• 11:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And then, there's also this guy. Toxic masculinity sweatshirt.

• 11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And then also, of course, the Mothman plushy keychain.

• 11:14Karen Kilgariff?

  So precious.

• 11:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Hanging on the tree.

• 11:16Karen Kilgariff?

  So typical, although it's kind of heavy.

• 11:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It's too heavy.

• 11:19Karen Kilgariff?

  What if we put him right here?

• 11:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, perfect.

• 11:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, cute. He's just going to sit down.

• 11:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it.

• 11:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's good.

• 11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So if you ever wanted to match your tree, now you can. Head to exactlyrightstore.com to shop now.

• 11:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And order, please, by December 14th, so that you can get your items by December 25th.

• 11:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you, guys, for doing that.

• 11:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we love to make fun merch for you.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of 5-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 12:14Georgia Hardstark?

  OK, you're solo today.

• 12:15Karen Kilgariff?

  It's solo time. And I hope you like this. It's a Christmas story.

• 12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 12:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's, well, you'll see. This story starts, it's mid-December, the holiday season. The world is awash in a sea of red and green. And along with many other major winter cultural observations, Christmas is here. But my story is from an era when our modern holiday mania began, the early 1900s in New York City.

• 12:44Georgia Hardstark?

  OK.

• 12:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And there was one man who took people's holiday cheer and goodwill and lots and lots of their money and used it all to make himself into a Jazz Age celebrity. This is the story of New York's Santa Claus man, John Duval Gluck.

• 13:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, I've never heard this one.

• 13:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So Maren used the writing and research of a writer named Alex Palmer, who published the book The Santa Claus Man. And John Gluck is his great-granduncle.

• 13:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's a family story.

• 13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 13:15Karen Kilgariff?

  The rest of the sources are in our show notes. OK, so we go, let's go back to the origins of Santa Claus, if you would, for just one moment.

• 13:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Please, this Jew needs to know.

• 13:23Karen Kilgariff?

  What, right? Don't you wonder where Santa Claus is originally from?

• 13:28Georgia Hardstark?

  I thought he was Jewish. I thought he was Jewish.

• 13:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Turkey.

• 13:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 13:30Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, not far away. Sometime around 280 AD, a series of legends emerge about a selfless Christian bishop named Nicholas, who roams the countryside, giving away the fortune he inherited at birth. That's different. In what is maybe the most famous of these stories, Nicholas tosses gold to three young sisters to save them from being sold into slavery by their destitute father.

• 13:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 13:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Over the years, these stories spread throughout Europe, and Nicholas becomes known as the patron saint of children.

• 14:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. You don't hear a lot about charitable billionaires these days, do you?

• 14:05Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no. I bet his dad didn't even get into the Bs. He was down in the

• 14:10Georgia Hardstark?

  That would have been insane.

• 14:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Low M's.

• 14:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Back then. 280?

• 14:13Karen Kilgariff?

  260.

• 14:14Georgia Hardstark?

  What would be in today's money, though?

• 14:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Having to calculate today's money from 280 AD.

• 14:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No, no.

• 14:23Karen Kilgariff?

  The calculator just snaps in half. Okay. So Saint Nicholas's feast day is December 6th, and that's when it's said that he died. So it becomes a very lucky day for many Europeans, and a day where adults bring little candies or modest gifts to children in the spirit of Saint Nick. This is, of course, a couple of weeks before December 25th, which is the day Christians observe the birth of Christ. So over the years, basically, those two days blend together with the birth of Christ winning out and Saint Nicholas coming.

• 14:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Interesting. He just becomes a mascot instead of the actual reason for the season.

• 14:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, exactly.

• 15:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, disgusting.

• 15:01Karen Kilgariff?

  He gets blended in, but then, as centuries pass, he remains so popular and beloved that even after the Protestant Reformation, when devotion to saints fades across much of Europe, you know, the Protestants, they stripped out all that stuff.

• 15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  For sure. Heresy, all that shit.

• 15:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But old Saint Nick endures. This is particularly true in the Netherlands, where he's known by the truncated nickname Sinterklaas. And it's through the Dutch settlers emigrating to New York in the 18th century that we first met Saint Nick here in America.

• 15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 15:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So I don't know why I can't read today.

• 15:39Karen Kilgariff?

  So, and I should just do it from memory. So, in 1809, the legend of Sleepy Hollow author, Washington Irving, publishes a satirical history of New York City that depicts St. Nick as a kind of paternal mascot for Dutch New Yorkers. And basically, he's described as a pipe-smoking, gift-giving man who rides through the sky in a flying wagon. And around the same time, the wealthy founder of the New York Historical Society, named John Pintard, campaigns to actually make St. Nicholas the city's patron saint.

• 16:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 16:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't work. What finally catapults St. Nicholas into the American zeitgeist is a single poem written in 1822 by another New Yorker, Clement Clarke Moore, called "A Visit From St. Nicholas." Now, we kind of know it better as "The Night Before Christmas."

• 16:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, wow.

• 16:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So, in it, Moore picks the version of St. Nicholas that's still with us today. "The plump, rosy-cheeked, white-bearded man who flies around in a sleigh, pulled by eight reindeer," you know all of this, "delivering gifts to children." The poem is an instant hit when it comes out, and it spreads far beyond New York. And it actually never really fades in popularity. So, people latch on to it, and we've never let it go. So, this brings us back to the early 1900s. St. Nicholas, now better known as Santa Claus, has become a mainstream American icon and tradition. Department stores are booming at this time, the early 1900s. Advertising's taking off. So, every holiday season, Santa Claus appears in newspaper ads and elaborate window displays.

• 17:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, just takes off just like that.

• 17:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. It's this time of year, right, everybody?

• 17:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Consumerism, yeah.

• 17:15Karen Kilgariff?

  He actually becomes so ubiquitous that virtually every American child knows who Santa is and what he does. And they start to write him letters, asking for what they most want for Christmas. This is before the concept of the North Pole was discovered to be Santa's home. And so, most kids think that he lives behind the moon or somewhere in the clouds. But over time, kids start giving their Christmas lists to their mail carriers. Suddenly, thousands of... So, this happened, basically, just culturally by itself.

• 17:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 17:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Thousands of letters addressed...

• 17:46Georgia Hardstark?

  It went viral. Christmas went viral.

• 17:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, but the hardest way possible in the early 1900s.

• 17:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, totally.

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So thousands of letters addressed to Santa Claus, the clouds, or even heaven, are circulating through the US postal system, most of them winding up in Washington DC in what's known as the Dead Letter Office.

• 18:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 18:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, also a wonderful album by R.E.M. This is basically a graveyard for the nation's undeliverable mail. And per policy, these letters either need to be returned to sender or destroyed. But postal workers can't bring themselves to throw a child's letter to Santa away.

• 18:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I was gonna say, send it back. That's what they couldn't do because then it's like, there's nobody at this fucking heaven.

• 18:27Karen Kilgariff?

  They basically see that there is this issue where it's like, we throw it away and it goes unanswered. We send it back and hearts are broken.

• 18:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:34Karen Kilgariff?

  So many spend their own time and money buying the gifts on the list and then delivering them. Some postal workers loop in local churches and charities to help them out.

• 18:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, stop it. I'm gonna cry right fucking now.

• 18:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I've never heard this before.

• 18:51Georgia Hardstark?

  That's so above and beyond. I can't even believe it. I thought you were gonna say they write back to them. No, they fucking...

• 18:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They do it. They fill it out. And also that idea of like, because the postman is really a part of your life, but it's just very specific, you know, kind of outside your door. You know them.

• 19:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the connection doesn't have to be there. It just happened and they're like, great, let's do it.

• 19:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's do this. Let's get this kid exactly what they want.

• 19:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my god.

• 19:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so these beautiful but technically forbidden acts of kindness become so commonplace that in the early 1910s...

• 19:23Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't open other people's mail.

• 19:24Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not allowed, but it's like, Santa.

• 19:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 19:28Karen Kilgariff?

  So it becomes so commonplace that in the early 1910s, the postmaster general has to step in and change the rules. Not only are local postmasters now formally authorized to open letters to Santa, but they can bundle them all together and hand them off to charities.

• 19:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck.

• 19:43Karen Kilgariff?

  To make sure.

• 19:44Georgia Hardstark?

  People don't always suck. Like, that's the thing you gotta keep in mind this holiday season.

• 19:48Karen Kilgariff?

  These are the stories.

• 19:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 19:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, here's the turn. After 10 years, we're gonna start telling only good people's stories.

• 19:55Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't have one of those today, though. My story's not that. So then after that, in the new year, 2026.

• 20:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, later. Year 15. Okay, so this is when a 35-year-old New Yorker named John Duval Gluck comes into the picture.

• 20:09Karen Kilgariff?

  So John's born on Christmas Day.

• 20:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 20:11Karen Kilgariff?

  So we know where he would be in that argument.

• 20:13Georgia Hardstark?

  A double presence.

• 20:15Karen Kilgariff?

  And he is born to a family that loves the holidays. His parents are very good at Christmas. They've embraced the giving spirit. They actually have a gluck family tradition. One of the men in their family plays Santa Claus every year. And it said plays. I don't know if that meant like for the community or just at home. But it's like clearly they're into it.

• 20:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 20:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So when John hears about the postal service's new policy on Santa letters, there may have been part of him that wanted to help spread the cheer like his family had taught him to always do. But it seems John's also one of those kind of people who wants people to pat him on the back for doing the nice thing more than they want to do the nice thing.

• 20:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Virtue signaling.

• 20:54Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right.

• 20:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 20:55Karen Kilgariff?

  But in 1910.

• 20:57Georgia Hardstark?

  There's no signaling then.

• 20:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 20:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Because they didn't have that yet.

• 21:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Virtue telegraph.

• 21:02Georgia Hardstark?

  SOS.

• 21:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Telegraphing.

• 21:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:04Karen Kilgariff?

  So John inherits his father's customs brokerage business at a young age. So he makes a very nice living. But he has his own insecurities, as we all do. He is the shortest of his four brothers. And he seems to overcompensate for it by being a big ham. He's also balding, which is likely a difficult for him.

• 21:23Georgia Hardstark?

  He's a short king.

• 21:24Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a short bald king.

• 21:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Like fucking own it and it's hot. If you own it, it's sexy.

• 21:29Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, it works every time.

• 21:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Karen Kilgariff?

  But what he does instead of owning it is he grows an impressive meticulously maintained mustache to make up for it.

• 21:37Georgia Hardstark?

  That, that'd work on me.

• 21:40Karen Kilgariff?

  It wouldn't?

• 21:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 21:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a big ol'.

• 21:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Back then, yes, not now. Now it's just like, what are you, a fucking mixologist? But back then, that would have worked on me.

• 21:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I, I don't know. Honestly, bald beard is my number one combination.

• 21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Bald beard, beer belly. Like, oh, Vince fucking Avril, I will marry their shit out of you the moment I saw him across the room. And he was wearing a Fred Perry collared t-shirt. I was like.

• 22:07Karen Kilgariff?

  That's his look.

• 22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's my fucking future husband.

• 22:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:09Georgia Hardstark?

  And like cool tennis shoes. Like, come on.

• 22:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 22:12Georgia Hardstark?

  That's all we want. That's all we want.

• 22:13Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is. Because it says a lot about what's going on.

• 22:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Sorry to make it about me.

• 22:19Karen Kilgariff?

  So while John loves to brag about being born on Christmas, it is clearly bittersweet for him because it steals his birthday thunder every year. He was probably very jealous when he watched family members putting on that Santa suit and getting all the attention.

• 22:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And he wanted it for himself.

• 22:34Georgia Hardstark?

  He wanted to put on his birthday suit and get all that attention.

• 22:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And be like, "Look at my mustache." So when New York's postmaster starts to formalize how letters to Santa should be handled, John pitches himself as the person to handle it.

• 22:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Cool.

• 22:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Pointing to his customs brokerage background as proof that he understands logistics. He claims he can process the letters and deliver all those gifts no problem.

• 22:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Please tell me he does it and everything's okay and he doesn't steal money from them.

• 23:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll tell you this, it's the worst bad version of what we're usually waiting for at the end of a story like this.

• 23:08Georgia Hardstark?

  The worst part? It's the worst?

• 23:10Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, it's the, sorry, least bad.

• 23:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 23:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I said worst bad.

• 23:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, that's like, he murders children.

• 23:16Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, no, no.

• 23:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so least bad's fine, okay.

• 23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Least bad. He's the inverse of Albert Fish.

• 23:20Georgia Hardstark?

  I could, okay, I can handle it.

• 23:23Karen Kilgariff?

  So, he gets the green light. Now he's in charge of thousands of wish lists from children all over New York to Santa. So in 1913, John Gluck officially launches what's called the Santa Claus Association. Out of the back room of a restaurant called Henkel's Shop Shop on West 36th Street in Manhattan.

• 23:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Take me there.

• 23:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Just the smell. Oh my God, sorry, but I just saw this girl, actually I don't know who it was, but they were going around New York and there are little vending machines that look like old stamp vending machines.

• 23:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, I love those, like sticker ones.

• 23:56Karen Kilgariff?

  But, yes, but there's art in them. And so this, somebody is making like, original watercolors.

• 24:02Georgia Hardstark?

  That's incredible.

• 24:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Of anything you'd want in New York. And so she kept, they were a dollar, so she'd have to get the quarters. So she like, "We found another one in this place, so we found another one." At the end, she goes, "I had one more for my last one," or whatever. And she opens it up and it's an everything bagel. And it is the most perfect little.

• 24:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Like drawing of an everything bagel?

• 24:20Karen Kilgariff?

  A drawing, the, this perfect, I don't know where to put it. Down here, up here. It's like this big.

• 24:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 24:26Karen Kilgariff?

  And it just says "everything!" exclamation mark. It's like.

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's a tattoo.

• 24:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 24:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I'd get that tattoo.

• 24:31Karen Kilgariff?

  This person was going around doing that and then they were meeting up with other people and trading, like, "We got this one already."

• 24:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God. That's fucking cute. I want that to happen to me, except I don't want to drive across town. So I'll do it in New York.

• 24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. It makes me want to go to New York. So good.

• 24:46Georgia Hardstark?

  During the holidays, the best.

• 24:47Karen Kilgariff?

  So good, Nardi. Okay. So John's running the Santa Claus Association out of this fairly modest setup, but he's proud. He makes it known that reporters are always welcome to drop by and he's always ready with a punchy quote when they get there. And that results in John getting a lot of feel-good coverage in city newspapers about the Santa Claus Association. Readers take note of this charismatic man who seems to exemplify the spirit of St. Nicholas. So here's how the Santa Claus Association works. In December, the Postal Service hands over several heavy bags containing all the undeliverable letters to Santa written by young New Yorkers, usually well over 10,000 pieces of mail.

• 25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Then John's volunteers, mostly society women or secretaries loaned out by local businesses, start to sort through them. And they read each letter. They categorize it into different stacks. They, if they get any repeats from the same child, they pull them out so duplicates don't go in. Any letters that describe hunger, homelessness, or abuse are forwarded to the Public Charities Commission, and those are investigated by city workers there.

• 25:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 25:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. Any that seem suspicious, like maybe an adult wrote them, they go into their own pile for further review. About 70% of these letters pass inspection. Then they're matched with the donors from New York society who purchased the gifts and then have the option to deliver them themselves.

• 26:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I want to do this. Where do I sign up for this?

• 26:14Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 26:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I think I'd be good at it. The letter part, filing. I'm really good at filing.

• 26:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Filing and just putting things in, like, you belong over here.

• 26:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. I'm so good at categorizing things. Like, fucking give me something and I'll fucking categorize.

• 26:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You want clothes, you want toys, you want money. Okay. But most owners just send the presents back to the Santa Claus Association, which is then tasked with getting them to the right households. It's a huge undertaking, obviously. John quickly realizes he needs way more manpower to actually receive the letters, wrap the gifts, deliver the gifts. Serendipitously, days into the Santa Claus Association's soft launch amid all its glowing recent press, sorry, it was a hard launch, leaders from the American Boy Scouts reach out.

• 26:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Great.

• 26:58Karen Kilgariff?

  They offer hundreds of scouts to help with wrapping and delivering packages. It sounds lovely, but it's actually a very smart PR move because the American Boy Scouts have had a terrible reputation at this point.

• 27:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 27:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Because this is not the Boy Scouts of America.

• 27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 27:13Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the American Boy Scouts, not the same group. And actually, Boy Scouts of America has since rebranded as Scouting America.

• 27:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 27:21Karen Kilgariff?

  So just to keep it all...

• 27:22Georgia Hardstark?

  You've seen that documentary?

• 27:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, so bad.

• 27:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 27:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Both organizations come out of the so-called scouting movement of the early 20th century. They have very different MOs. The Boy Scouts of America, currently scouting America, is simply geared at creating good citizens, whereas American Boy Scouts, the one who are offering their help to John Gluck, is geared at training young men for military service.

• 27:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 27:48Karen Kilgariff?

  The American Boy Scouts arm their young scouts with actual guns.

• 27:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 27:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Which has expectantly tragic consequences. In 1912, the year before the Santa Claus Association is established, a 12-year-old scout fatally shoots a nine-year-old boy in the Bronx after the younger boy makes a comment about his uniform.

• 28:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. I mean, what happens when you give children guns? They shoot each other. It's like, basic fucking math.

• 28:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Pretty clear. So, membership knows dives following this tragedy, but the American Boy Scouts hold firm on its gun-toting policy for children.

• 28:22Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, guys, just fucking keep on keeping on.

• 28:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, so what they try to do is a little damage control by changing its name to the United States Boy Scouts. That doesn't really work, so then they look for other ways, and here they find the Santa Claus Association.

• 28:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 28:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Given how scandalized the group is at the time, people in John's position would have turned their offer down, but John jumps at the opportunity because not only can the scouts handle deliveries at no cost to him, but he figures they can also help verify the letters that are in further review by going door to door to see if they are actually families in need.

• 28:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 28:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So, he also likes the idea that these troops of boys, all in uniform, are working on behalf of the Santa Claus Association, like it's his little army. He thinks it gives the whole thing a patriotic wholesome energy that will play well in the press. So on Christmas of 1913, the Santa Claus Association successively delivers to more than 13,000 New York City children.

• 29:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 29:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. This generates even more good press, and almost overnight, John becomes a local celebrity. He's suddenly rubbing elbows with politicians and society families, even early Hollywood stars. Within just a few years, the Santa Claus Association becomes a full-fledged part of New York's increasingly glitzy holiday season. Everybody wants to be a part of it. It's said that John's donor list includes members of the Vanderbilt and Astor families, and eventually even Presidents William Harding and Calvin Coolidge.

• 29:53Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, when you have those numbers, like 13,000 children, like, you're allowed to be a little bit of a cocky, "look at me, look at me" person. It's okay.

• 30:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I think you're right, because he got it done.

• 30:02Georgia Hardstark?

  He got it done.

• 30:03Karen Kilgariff?

  He said he was gonna do it, and then he actually did it.

• 30:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and the more attention he gets, the more people will contribute. So I'm fine with him being a fucking raggit or whatever.

• 30:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's for such a good cause, like, who cares? So now even more people want to volunteer their time with the association. So to accommodate the increase in volunteers, as well as the ever-increasing numbers of letters to Santa, John moves his headquarters into the Hotel Astor in Times Square.

• 30:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And then into the Woolworth Building, the tallest in the world at the time.

• 30:32Georgia Hardstark?

  All right.

• 30:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course, the genius of John's whole system is that the Santa Claus Association doesn't have to spend very much money to actually fulfill its mission.

• 30:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Volunteers are donating their time, the scouts donate the labor, and of course, the donors pay for all the presents, yet John is constantly fundraising. He says it's for operational basics like postage, stamps, and packing supplies. But these are fairly inexpensive purchases, even when you buy them in bulk. But John's fundraising is limitless. But it's the Santa Claus Association. It brings joy to New York City's children, it gets great press, it has solid endorsements from high society, so no one's asking any questions about where all this money's going. But if someone were to dig into John, they would see some red flags. Not only is he the only one handling the purse strings at the Santa Claus Association,

• 31:25Karen Kilgariff?

  where they're ostensibly raising like, near millions of dollars, even back then, but he also seems to be getting enormously wealthy himself, far beyond what a normal business owner would. He's also developing a slippery relationship with the truth, and some people notice. One example, he describes himself in a publication as a sociologist. He also claims to have degrees from elite universities in the US and abroad. He only actually has a high school diploma.

• 31:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Same.

• 31:54Karen Kilgariff?

  He also starts putting ESQ after his name in some documents, implying that he's a lawyer.

• 32:01Georgia Hardstark?

  False flag, you can't do that.

• 32:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Esquire.

• 32:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Sorry, not false flag.

• 32:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, stolen dollar.

• 32:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 32:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Then he starts telling people he has worked with the Secret Service, which is...

• 32:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Should be a secret.

• 32:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It's, yeah, first of all, it's a secret. Secondly, why are you li... Why is that the lie that all liars love to say?

• 32:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm with the government.

• 32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 32:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Um, black ops.

• 32:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So now it's 1915, the Santa Claus Association's third year in operation. John Gluck makes a big Christmas Day announcement to a group of reporters, declaring that he's going to build a permanent home for the Santa Claus Association in midtown Manhattan. He's going to call it the Santa Claus Building. And he promises that it'll be, quote, "the most unique building in America" and a, quote, "national monument to the Christmas spirit."

• 32:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 32:53Karen Kilgariff?

  There is a world, there's another timeline where this all went beautifully.

• 32:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. All year, they operated as like a charitable foundation for children in need.

• 33:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Giving children in need what they need.

• 33:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Basics, yeah.

• 33:04Karen Kilgariff?

  And we all went up from there.

• 33:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 33:07Karen Kilgariff?

  But now we're in the Donald Trump timeline, where we steal from children's charities.

• 33:13Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 33:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And when I say "we," I mean you. Okay.

• 33:16Georgia Hardstark?

  How did you know? Who told you?

• 33:18Karen Kilgariff?

  When did you get that job? Okay, so Gluck claims that this building will be made of white marble. It will have a deep, arched entrance and a massive 50-foot stained glass window of Santa Claus himself.

• 33:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 33:32Karen Kilgariff?

  The facade will feature scenes from St. Nicholas from around the world, sculpted by artists from those companies.

• 33:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That'd be cute.

• 33:40Karen Kilgariff?

  From those countries. Jesus Christ, I want to stop podcasting so bad.

• 33:46Georgia Hardstark?

  We're almost there. One more day of recording and we're almost done for this.

• 33:50Karen Kilgariff?

  So close to vacation.

• 33:51Georgia Hardstark?

  For 2025, we're so close, you guys. You've got this. When you finish that, you're done.

• 33:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just going to keep my eyes on the page and just get through it.

• 34:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Leave that, leave that in, please.

• 34:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 34:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the reality.

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  So, yeah, we're so real. Soon, he gets some famous artists committed to this project. John says the ground floor of the building will be devoted to different charitable organizations, including the Santa Claus Association, but other ones as well. Then there's going to be an auditorium where plays will be produced, as well as an enormous kitchen that could provide meals for 1,000 people at a time. He's just talking. The second floor will be filled with toys from around the world. Some of these will be donated to children in need, but others will be for sale. John also promises a rooftop garden. He's like, F A O. Schwartz, but also Nordstrom Cafe. It's gonna be amazing.

• 34:44Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like that one Swindler that did the whole.

• 34:46Karen Kilgariff?

  The Anna Delvey?

• 34:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 34:48Karen Kilgariff?

  There she was like, super pretending to be rich.

• 34:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and she was gonna build a club, like a private, like, members-only club in New York, and it had all these crazy things. And it's like, that's not real.

• 34:56Karen Kilgariff?

  She's Santa Claus Association, those people?

• 34:58Georgia Hardstark?

  She tried to Santa Claus that building.

• 35:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it is that, basically, this guy's just thinking up the mall, it sounds like. Okay, he promises a rooftop garden and a swanky restaurant to boot, as writer Alex Palmer reports, quote, "The Santa Claus building would blend spiritual ideals and consumerism so completely as to make them indistinguishable."

• 35:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Can't happen.

• 35:20Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, sorry. They're not the same. So Gluck's announcement makes headlines beyond New York, with newspapers reporting on the Santa Claus building as far away as Kentucky and Oregon. But all that marble and stained glass will not come cheap. John estimates that the building will cost, in the ballpark of $300,000 to construct, which is what in today's money?

• 35:41Georgia Hardstark?

  $300,000 in.

• 35:43Karen Kilgariff?

  1915.

• 35:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Is going to be, hold on, let me think, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, 975.

• 35:48Karen Kilgariff?

  $10 million.

• 35:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Holy shit.

• 35:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 35:52Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 35:53Karen Kilgariff?

  It's 2025.

• 35:54Georgia Hardstark?

  It never makes sense. Like, every time we do this, it's like, that's not, that doesn't add up from what happened last time in 1915. You know what I mean?

• 36:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not yelling at you, but like, that's why we hate this. It's just never.

• 36:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Do we ever go up that high from stories from 1915?

• 36:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't know.

• 36:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I think we've broken a barrier here.

• 36:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I try to be logical, for real, but then it's like, just never. Imagine that. Our economy is not about logic. I don't think, you know what? That's not on me.

• 36:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's not, you forgot about the Great Depression's coming up.

• 36:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 36:22Karen Kilgariff?

  A bunch of, 2008's gonna be in there.

• 36:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit.

• 36:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Ooh. So for the next decade, John fundraises for the Santa Claus building year-round. We've gotta make a building for Santa Claus. He publishes newspaper ads, sends out mailers, which prominently feature renderings of the building. So it's real, real, here's the blueprint.

• 36:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for real.

• 36:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He hosts ritzy, over-the-top galas that bring the rich, wealthy, and charitable together in the name of giving.

• 36:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I love a gala.

• 36:48Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 36:48Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 36:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Those real long earrings.

• 36:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Karen Kilgariff?

  The longest.

• 36:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Gloves.

• 36:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Tiny food on silver trays.

• 36:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Rings.

• 36:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 37:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Little quiches, take my money.

• 37:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Give it to me gala. That was the last gala you got to go to.

• 37:06Georgia Hardstark?

  We went to the Ronald McDonald House gala like two years ago. And so I bought a table and had all our, like, a couple of our friends at the table.

• 37:13Karen Kilgariff?

  You partied.

• 37:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 37:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It was really lovely.

• 37:15Karen Kilgariff?

  For a beautiful foundation.

• 37:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because you know, I used to work there. So like, he knows it's legit.

• 37:20Karen Kilgariff?

  That's when I first met you guys.

• 37:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 37:22Karen Kilgariff?

  You're a young scrappy couple.

• 37:24Georgia Hardstark?

  What about you?

• 37:25Karen Kilgariff?

  The last gala?

• 37:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 37:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I went to one for Pedaluma Schools, but I think it was like two years ago.

• 37:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Or more.

• 37:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 37:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Just telling you about this gala because writer Alex Palmer reports that in 1924, at a Santa Claus Association party hosted on the roof of the Waldorf Astoria, quote, attendees included English actress Violet Inglefield, wearing jewels so extravagant that she had to be escorted to the party in an armored car.

• 37:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 37:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Her diamonds went all the way to the ground. We don't know how much money John is pulling in during this period, because of course, there's no accounting going on.

• 38:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 38:02Karen Kilgariff?

  At the association. And he's the only one in charge and he's not doing any bookkeeping. But what we do know is there's never any real movement on the Santa Claus building. And there won't be for a full 10 years after John makes this announcement. Not even a hint of a possible construction timeline. But nobody asks too many questions. The Santa Claus Association continues to respond to children's letters year after year. There's no shortage of heartwarming stories about it every holiday season in New York's papers. And John is at the center of all of it. So he's got to have goodness in his heart.

• 38:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, somewhere.

• 38:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yet John is steadily escalating in his bad behavior. For example, he's become increasingly committed to the United States Boy Scouts. Not the Boy Scouts of America, now called scouting away.

• 38:50Georgia Hardstark?

  The sketchy one.

• 38:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Or whatever the fuck it's called, yes. He's now fundraising for them. But for a fee. But to raise this money, he's been exploiting people's confusion about the United States Boy Scouts and the Boy Scouts of America.

• 39:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Finally comes back to bite him when he gets taken to court by the Boy Scouts of America. And in the process, it is revealed that he's been pocketing very large amounts of the organization's funds.

• 39:15Georgia Hardstark?

  That.

• 39:15Karen Kilgariff?

  This nearly wrecks John's credibility in the public eye, but he's a very slick mover. And he manages to kind of fix it mostly because of how beloved the Santa Claus Association is. He just like plays that up. When things get dicey for him, he just hides behind his famous charity and he basically just rides out any scandal. So now it's the 1920s, which is known as the golden age of fundraising. Did you know?

• 39:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 39:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, Maron, you are lying. You are lying on paper. But I guess it was. And it's because the economy is booming. There's new millionaires popping up all over the place.

• 39:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 39:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's still the progressive era where service is front and center for so many. People are giving like never before. And as the head of one of New York City's most well-known charities, John Gluck knows this very well. So he starts creating a suspiciously large number of side charities from the Santa Claus Association. The missions of these groups are usually very vague or weirdly specific with names like the Defense Reports Committee, or the Serum Control of Cancer, or there was even something called the Window Crib Society. Have you ever seen the pictures of the babies in the window crib?

• 40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 40:30Karen Kilgariff?

  This is from Gluck.

• 40:31Georgia Hardstark?

  I love that.

• 40:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. The Window Crib Society advocated for chicken wire cages that parents could hang outside their apartment windows so their babies could get some fresh air.

• 40:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you see, the photos from then are just so creepy. It's a baby fucking 12 stories up on basically like a security gate chicken wire.

• 40:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 40:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Like a chicken wire awning.

• 40:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's like a cat cage.

• 40:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 40:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Nailed to a kitchen window.

• 40:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And the babies crawled out into it.

• 41:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for fresh air.

• 41:01Karen Kilgariff?

  For fresh air.

• 41:02Georgia Hardstark?

  And I promise you, that's not what you're getting in fucking New York to begin with.

• 41:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Honk honk honk honk. Beep beep. But I think that's the craziest because I've always seen that just in kind of like, interesting facts you should know about this was, because it really was a trend. People were doing it.

• 41:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:18Karen Kilgariff?

  But it was all Santa Claus Society, just trying to basically launder money.

• 41:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. Also, perfect distraction.

• 41:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 41:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Babies and chicken, people are just so freaked out all the time.

• 41:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Looking up all the time.

• 41:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't focus. Okay, so these groups never do a whole lot, aside from fundraising, but to make them seem legit to potential donors, John starts to claim that they're backed by members of New York's high society without those members' permission.

• 41:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Of course, when rich socialites and business people discover they've been unknowingly endorsing cage windows for babies, they are furious. And this is when reporters and city officials finally start poking into the world of John Gluck. But, of course, what John does when there's heat on any charities, he just shuts it down before anything escalates and then goes on to create a new one. And he, every time, pulls in some unknown amount of cash with his fundraising, and then, of course, pockets most, if not all, of it, but also growing a list of donors. So he gets out there and he kisses babies in cages and shakes hands and then finds new people to give him money. It's said by the 1920s, John's master mailing list contains roughly 76,000 names.

• 42:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 42:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Pre-internet. So now it's the late 20s, and a straight-laced, rule-loving, public servant named Byrd S. Kohler is now the New York City's Commissioner of Public Welfare. And this very outspoken man, who believes that charities should be tightly regulated and heavily scrutinized.

• 42:50Georgia Hardstark?

  He's fun.

• 42:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I mean, this is like the prohibition era brings in all these guys.

• 42:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I mean, he's great, but who would you rather be at a party with?

• 42:58Karen Kilgariff?

  No, clearly, John Gluck is the man. I mean, he's like, he's like, "Let's you and me do some good, and then I will also get money."

• 43:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, he's fun.

• 43:07Karen Kilgariff?

  He's fun, he's already a rich guy. He's a rich guy that knows how to make rich guy give him money.

• 43:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And he does it. But basically, Byrd Kohler sees how flashy and hammy and publicity-hungry John Gluck is, and he's instantly suspicious about his intentions. So he hits the Santa Claus Association with an official audit. Things very quickly unravel. Kohler learns that since the Santa Claus Association began, John Gluck has been running the whole thing himself. With zero oversight, he has made up dozens of employees, all listed on the payroll, to give the illusion that there's financial accountability within the organization.

• 43:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you can't do that.

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  No, you're not allowed to do that. That's actually illegal. As a result, huge sums of money have flowed in and out of the charity without any documentation on how it was spent. So, in 1927 alone, Kohler learns that the Santa Claus Association raised at least $100,000.

• 44:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't. Uh, what was the other one?

• 44:03Karen Kilgariff?

  $300.

• 44:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. I don't know.

• 44:06Karen Kilgariff?

  You do.

• 44:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh, a million.

• 44:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Two million.

• 44:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 44:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's all gone.

• 44:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:13Karen Kilgariff?

  So he...

• 44:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 44:15Karen Kilgariff?

  In the end, Bert Kohler's audit of the association concludes that John had embezzled virtually all of the charity's funds, millions and millions in today's money, that had been donated, not only for the Santa Claus building, but for also for the operational expenses of it. These findings generate a tsunami of nationwide press that exposed John's schemes and sully his reputation for good. People are outraged, and of course, practically overnight, all the social capital that he had spent a decade cultivating is over. The post office, meanwhile, abruptly ends its partnership with the Santa Claus Association.

• 44:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:49Karen Kilgariff?

  So in 1928, John shudders the organization officially. Even though he can no longer treat it as his personal slush fund, now we are sadly back to square one, needing to answer kids' letters to Santa Claus. So after the collapse of the Santa Claus Association, smaller organizations step in to help with letters to Santa. Decades later, Operation Santa Claus replaces this system, and in the coming years, expands into a nationwide program. So today, you can visit the United States Postal Service, OperationSanta.com, and you can read children's wish lists. They're scanned, and they're shared there for you to read for yourself, and you can answer one if you would like to.

• 45:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 45:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's estimated that the Santa Claus Association provided somewhere around a quarter million gifts for New York City's children. We will never know what good the money John embezzled could have done.

• 45:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Because he was getting millions in the spirit of...

• 45:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Give somebody who doesn't have what they need for the holidays something great.

• 45:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 45:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Meanwhile, John Gluck gets away with it. He's never prosecuted for any financial crimes, which is actually often attributed to the Great Depression hitting and overshadowing this entire scandal. What we know for sure is that he winds up leaving New York and resurfacing in Miami, where he reinvents himself as a real estate broker, and he lives there until the early 50s, when he dies at age 73. Alex Palmer writes in his book, "John Gluck never heads another charity, though it's unclear if this is because he finally learned his lesson or because post-Depression reforms finally put guardrails on fundraising for charity." He's like, "Now it's not worth it."

• 46:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 46:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And that is the story of New York City's opportunistic Santa Claus man, John Gluck. Happy holidays.

• 46:40Georgia Hardstark?

  So he never had to give back any of the money?

• 46:42Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 46:42Georgia Hardstark?

  But he lost it, but he spent it all?

• 46:44Karen Kilgariff?

  He spent it on himself and like, did whatever. But then, like, basically, the market crash of 1929 and overnight,

• 46:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Nobody had anything.

• 46:53Karen Kilgariff?

  No one had anything. And nobody was looking for

• 46:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 46:56Karen Kilgariff?

  the millions he stole when, like, people were jumping out of windows.

• 46:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. Wow, that's fucked up. I've never heard that before.

• 47:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I haven't either.

• 47:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Must be because it's right by the Great Depression.

• 47:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 47:08Georgia Hardstark?

  That's good. That's a fucking good fraudster.

• 47:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't it good?

• 47:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It was gonna, it was gonna be a story for New York.

• 47:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, for a live show?

• 47:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 47:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Good one. All right, well, great job. I'm glad we're donating to Feed the Children today.

• 47:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I know.

• 47:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fitting.

• 47:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Finally, someone gives back after this gigantic ripoff. Although, God, it's like, the Santa Claus building, if it was made in like, 1915, by now, it would be

• 47:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Gorgeous.

• 47:36Karen Kilgariff?

  They would be, they would be carrying cancer in there.

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 47:39Karen Kilgariff?

  They would be doing everything. All the, you would have this kind of like, focused attention on goodness.

• 47:45Georgia Hardstark?

  What is it about him that made him not do that?

• 47:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Greed.

• 47:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Greed. That sucks.

• 47:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, man.

• 47:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, you men.

• 47:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you men.

• 47:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that's where we're going to bring you down to this holiday season.

• 48:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, good job. Guys, we did it.

• 48:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, focus on the Santa Claus building in your mind.

• 48:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't be like the Santa Claus guy.

• 48:09Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, be the doorman of the Santa Claus building and open the door of the Santa Claus building.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  In your heart.

• 48:15Karen Kilgariff?

  In your heart and welcome all of the children and adult children in.

• 48:19Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 48:20Karen Kilgariff?

  This holiday season.

• 48:22Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right.

• 48:22Karen Kilgariff?

  And stay safe.

• 48:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered.

• 48:26Karen Kilgariff?

  You thought I'd never get to it.

• 48:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 48:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 48:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 48:38Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 48:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 48:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lasevado.

• 48:46Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 48:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

• 48:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 48:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 48:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 49:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Or you can watch us on YouTube. Search for My Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe.

• 49:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 49:14Georgia Hardstark?

  You know a favorite M-word? Magnesium.

• 49:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the kind that's in Dr. Teal's magnesium spray.

• 49:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Made from a proprietary blend of topical minerals, it's designed to relax and prepare you for a night of rest.

• 49:24Karen Kilgariff?

  If you need a reset after your day, make Dr. Teal's magnesium spray part of your nighttime routine.

• 49:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Generously spritz each foot before bed and you'll be all set. I've actually started doing this and I'm obsessed with magnesium. It does everything.

• 49:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Something like this is just like, it's simple, it's easy, and it actually works.

• 49:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. For wellness you can feel, find Dr. Teal's magnesium spray online or in your local bath aisle.

• 49:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Goodbye.