274. Sunak vs Starmer: The Final Showdown

Who won the final leadership debate? Did Rishi Sunak's more aggressive tactics pay dividends? What will Team Starmer make of his performance in Nottingham? Join Rory and Alastair for the audio version of their post-debate live stream, which you can watch on catchup right now: https://www.youtube.com/live/ya1K0WSvOAk?si=wEiWuvSldYgTeTy9 TRIP Plus: Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics. TRIP UK TOUR: To buy tickets for our October Tour, just head to www.therestispolitics.com 🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/restispolitics It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅ Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Video Editor: Teo Ayodeji-Ansell Social Producer: Jess Kidson Assistant Producer: Fiona Douglas Producer: Nicole Maslen Senior Producer: Dom Johnson Head of Content: Tom Whiter Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

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• 1:48Alastair Campbell?

  Hello, Rory. Welcome to The Rest is Politics. It's me, Alastair Campbell.

• 1:52Rory Stewart?

  And me, Rory Stewart. And how are you, Alistair?

• 1:55Alastair Campbell?

  I'm fine, I'm fine. I survived the debate. I'm very, I'm in a very dark place. All the lights are on, but it's so dark.

• 2:01Rory Stewart?

  Where are you?

• 2:02Alastair Campbell?

  I'm at home, but for some reason, I've got lights on everywhere, but they're not working. Now, what did you make of that?

• 2:09Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think it's, so I put out a tweet saying, Rishi Sunak can win this debate on debating points like it's a debating competition, but he's going to come across to people as though he's rude and patronizing. And I think that's about right. I think if this was a kind of technical high school debating competition, he won lots and lots of points. But the effect on people, I mean, I don't know what works, but and I'd be interested to see what the comments are. But my Twitter thread is full of people saying, yeah, that's probably right. But in fact, he comes across as rude, shouty, patronizing.

• 2:52Rory Stewart?

  Other people saying Starmer did look quite weak and cowed a bit. Some people blaming Michelle Hussein. But it's an interesting problem. I mean, it's set up as though it's a formal debating competition. But what I suppose I wanted to start with maybe is just throw back to you and say, actually, does it really matter at this stage anyway? Is anything really going to change the result?

• 3:12Alastair Campbell?

  It's hard to know. I don't think there was a there was a sort of moment where you thought, oh, yeah, that's really going to change things. I actually got it home just in time for the start because I've been out and speaking at an event, a lot of business people, a lot of environmental people and what have you. And I did our usual sort of who's going to be the prime minister next week. And it was 100% Keir Starmer. And I don't think that tonight changed. I thought Sunak was much, much more aggressive than he has been. I do you know, my one of my thoughts I kept having was that if Keir Starmer becomes prime minister, I wonder if Rishi Sunak might be a better leader of opposition than he is than he is prime minister. But I think a lot of people watching that would

• 3:54Alastair Campbell?

  have found he's so sort of tetchy and and he's got these lines. Now, there were certain lines that he was definitely, you know, we said in the first debate, he's definitely trying to land the thing about the £2,000 of tax. I noticed he moved off that. He now talks about thousands of pounds of tax. But I think the things he was trying to land today was retirement tax. I think that was a thing he kept trying to say. There is a clear choice. If he said that once, he said it 100 times. And also, this this idea that Keir Starmer doesn't really know what he stands for. But I think that I think there were times when Keir did look a bit sort of, you know, lacking in energy and just wanted to shut shut Sunak up, but didn't want to play the same game of being rude. Where I thought Keir was strong, though, was on the much more empathetic stuff. I thought he

• 4:36Alastair Campbell?

  was good on women. I thought he was, I thought it was interesting how there were clearly, I think there must have been some trans community people in or certainly supporters of the trans community. He got a lot of support for being very kind of passionate and emotional about that. But I don't think it changed the fundamentals.

• 4:53Rory Stewart?

  So there was something interesting. When they came into the out of their cards, the BBC was showing Rishi Sunak looking very kind of sort of nervous, slightly hunched, spoke very briefly to Director General of BBC. Keir Starmer came in with a huge big start, smile. There were lots of jokes, had some time to chat, walks in. But then I was so struck somehow that when he got on stage, that wasn't coming across. And you would have seen these articles recently in papers saying, I've just spent, you know, a couple of weeks travelling around with Keir Starmer. I really warmed him in private. He's terrific, but somehow this doesn't come across in public.

• 5:32Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 5:32Rory Stewart?

  And there is something a bit interesting there. I really felt, gosh, you know, looking at him sort of unguarded outside, he's this very kind of natural, relaxed, smiley person. And then when he's on stage, he becomes extremely kind of sort of stiff. Is he just nervous?

• 5:49Alastair Campbell?

  No, I, I, look, I don't think, I don't think he loves the format. I think he was conscious, particularly after the first debate, that Sunak was really going to try and rough him up. And he was determined not to make it a shouting match. And I actually thought it was very, it was quite effective. In fact, the first really big clap line was when he said, maybe if you just, you know, Keir started to try and answer a question, Rishi Sunak started to interrupt him. And Keir was directing directly at the woman who asked the question. I think it was about benefits. And he said, you know, maybe if you listened a bit more to people, instead of this constant interruption, you wouldn't be so out of touch, thereby showing up the rudeness, but also linking it to what we know is a big problem for Rishi Sunak, which is the out of touch thing. I think the other thing, though, that Rishi Sunak

• 6:33Rory Stewart?

  That got applause, didn't it?

• 6:34Alastair Campbell?

  It did. And I actually think the, what was a bit sad and weak about Rishi Sunak's performance, there were several points where it was obvious to me, having written lots of clap lines in my time, that he had clap lines that he was delivering, which just didn't work. Now, the one he kept trying, and this, I think, is the one they're trying to land, as a way to shaping up for the last week of their campaign, was this point he kept making where, do not surrender to Labour, do not surrender on illegal immigration. On tax, on pensions and so on. I think that was them signalling that is going to be a big theme of the final week of the of the campaign. Whereas I think for Labour, it was very much, we're clear what we're saying, we're clear what we're going to do, we're just going to carry on doing the same thing.

• 7:18Rory Stewart?

  I I think your your line on him being almost a leader of the opposition as a way of describing Rishi Sunak's performance, a good one.

• 7:26Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 7:27Rory Stewart?

  I mean, essentially, his thing was to treat Keir Starmer as the incumbent prime minister and keep saying, you know, you say you're going to be prime minister in a week's time, what are you going to do? And and and I think the real line, doesn't matter about the individual, but the line that basically keeps coming back is, well, I've told you what I'm going to do, what are you going to do? Well, I told you what I'm going to do, what are you going to do? You know, I've I've introduced this, but how are you going to stop them? So I suppose the undercurrent is to try to suggest that Keir Starmer hasn't quite got a detailed plan on this stuff.

• 7:59Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm hmm.

• 8:00Rory Stewart?

  And.

• 8:01Alastair Campbell?

  Just to tell you something, it's posted breaking news, YouGov poll on who won, Starmer fifty, Sunak fifty. So I think that I always try to think of these things about what happens when they go back to their various camps afterwards. I think Keir Starmer will go back thinking he handled the aggression much better than the first time round. He also, I think, came over better and warmer. And I think Rishi Sunak will go back and his team will say, look, we had certain points we wanted you to land and you and you did. But I agree with your first point, I think to to somebody who's a floating voter, I think that just come over as, oh, God, he's

• 8:46Alastair Campbell?

  just shouting at him, he's not actually.

• 8:48Rory Stewart?

  It's also a question of whether our culture's changed, because I think.

• 8:53Rory Stewart?

  Probably, I don't know, maybe forty, fifty years ago, you would really get a lot of marks for landing the debating points, being snappy, being succinct. But if you look down the thread here, we've got quite a lot of people saying, Starmer looked really uncomfortable, painful to watch, et cetera. But we've also got a lot of people saying, public school, privileged, patronizing. So there's an association, both on the comment thread and on Twitter, with an idea that that particular skill that Rishi Sunak's got, of being able to say, yeah, I've told you what I'm gonna do. What are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? Actually, comes across as kind of private school, rather than something you want in a prime minister.

• 9:33Alastair Campbell?

  Somebody just asked a question, as the relationship between prime minister and leader of the opposition always been this sort of hostile and negative. No is the short answer, I think. Look, there's obviously, I mean, let's be honest, Keir Starmer's trying to take Rishi Sunak's job, and it's one of the most high-profile jobs in the world. And it's humiliating when you have it taken away from you. But I think it's interesting that, you know, I think when Tony Blair bumps into John Major these days, I think they have perfectly nice civil chats. And I think sometimes did when they were, when they were both in offices, it were. Let's just give people a list for those maybe who didn't. By the way, Rory, we're currently running at well over double what the Sun got for the.

• 10:17Rory Stewart?

  That's why Harry Cole hates us. This is great.

• 10:19Alastair Campbell?

  I know, I know. Yeah, yeah. But just to get, just go, I think I took this accurately.

• 10:22Rory Stewart?

  Wait, wait, wait. Sorry. Can I just explain, people, the reference Alice has made?

• 10:25Alastair Campbell?

  Sorry.

• 10:26Rory Stewart?

  So the previous leaders debate was streamed live on YouTube, and they got only 7,000 people watching it. What Alice is pointing out is that twice as many people are watching a commentary on a debate than actually watch the same debate, which, the last debate, which is slightly worrying world of kind of virtual podcasts taking over the real thing.

• 10:44Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Just to go through the questions, I think I took a note of them all. First question was about betting. We've talked about that. I think that went on a bit too long, to be honest. Welfare to work, disability, waiting list came up.

• 10:57Rory Stewart?

  Welfare to work? Can I just interrupt you on that? That was an interesting one. So welfare to work, again, I don't know whether people, I was watching it with my mother-in-law, who's over from the States, and she was like, I don't get what this question's about. This is about the fact that since Covid, there have been 800,000 people who are no longer looking for work. And it's it's a really big conundrum because some of it is possibly long Covid, some of it may be health related, some of it is people who have just chosen not to go back to work. So there are two responses to this and neither of them seem convincing. There's the Rishi Sunak response, which seems to be just, we need to be tougher.

• 11:41Rory Stewart?

  And we need to say if there's a job out there for you and you don't get it, we're going to force you into it. And the Keir Starmer answer, which is, which he gave three times, which is we have to cut NHS waiting lists. But it's a big issue and one of the problems is nobody, none of the economists you talk to fully understand how it happened, why it happened. Very few other European countries have seen it. So we're really struggling to come up with an answer on it. Anyway, over to you again.

• 12:05Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, so that so that came without that one for a fair bit. The borders, issue of borders and immigration, very good question for a young man, where's the money coming from? Quite an aggressive question that got the loudest applause of all the questions, which is, are you two the best that this country can produce as the sort of choice?

• 12:21Rory Stewart?

  What sort of question was that though? I mean, that was, it wasn't really a question. So how are they supposed to answer that?

• 12:26Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, you see, again, Rishi Sunak answered it by saying, well, this is what I've done. Keir Starmer likewise said, you know, well, I did this and I did this and I've changed the Labour Party. I think I would have answered that a little bit. Well, you know, if I I think with Keir, he could have said, you know, well, you may not think I'm as charismatic as Boris Johnson, but I tell you, I'll be a much better prime minister. You may, you may not think I'm as interesting as Liz Truss, but I tell you, I'd be a much better prime minister than her. And you may not think I'm kind of, you know, as, I don't know how you would describe Rishi Sunak. So that's how I would have done it. So they had that one. Then they had bankrupt councils. Then they had women and that's where single sex basis came up. And I thought, I thought Keir, I thought he was very, very strong on trans in a way.

• 13:07Rory Stewart?

  That's where maybe he found his stride a bit. So

• 13:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 13:10Rory Stewart?

  So I, my sense is the debate had broken to thirds. First third, a little bit stiff. Second third, I think Rishi Sunak was really landing blows. I mean, if this was like a boxing match, Starmer was really struggling. Last third, as things slowed down, as Sunak was interrupting less, Starmer was able to get stuff out. For people who didn't watch the debate, that was particularly interesting. He said on Transgender, "Look, I think that women-only spaces should be there." He talked about his own personal experience and then he said, "But I also think that all human beings should be treated with dignity and respect."

• 13:48Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 13:48Rory Stewart?

  And when he was challenged on the Equalities Acts, of course, he turned around to Michelle Hussein and said, "No, it's in the acts." And of course, at that point, nobody challenges him. That's the point where he pulls rank as a senior lawyer.

• 14:01Alastair Campbell?

  And he also talked about the notes to the act as well. I mean, only lawyers will talk about the notes of the act. No, and I think, I also liked when he, because Rishi Sunak kept coming back about, you know, biological sex and, you know, "Why won't you support me on this?" and what have you. And he, Keir Starmer had this big thing about, you know, "I see the job leadership bringing the country together rather than dividing it." And I think that does speak to people quite a lot. I was obviously, I'm sure you were very pleased that Brexit was finally raised in one of these. I didn't think either of their answers were very good on that.

• 14:35Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, question on that was absolutely lovely.

• 14:37Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, the vinyl record.

• 14:39Rory Stewart?

  The lady said, "Will you mend our broken trading relationship with Europe?" And it was such a great question, but obviously none of them was proposing to do so.

• 14:47Alastair Campbell?

  Now, Rory, lots of our Scottish listeners and Welsh listeners and viewers are pointing out that none of the Scotland and Wales they're not going to mention. I think that is a bit of an omission. Naomi keeps posting a message, and I felt this as well, "Nothing on mental health yet again." It is really alarming the way that mental health has just fallen, fallen off the agenda.

• 15:06Rory Stewart?

  Somebody's just posted very disappointed, "Climate change," wasn't there?

• 15:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Also, there was, I think the protest outside was Palestine, and yet Palestine didn't come up. I thought Michelle Hussein did well. I think it's very, very difficult, particularly when you've got people who know that they're limited in time, they want to speak, they're trying to speak. I thought she kind of kept it moving along pretty well.

• 15:30Rory Stewart?

  Charlie O'Neill said that too. I mean, it's true that when Starmer was struggling, there were quite a lot of Labour supporters saying that she wasn't doing a good job. But I think she probably feels a little bit like I do that, given that he's almost certainly going to be the next prime minister, this is, it's, it's good to ask these questions.

• 15:49Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I thought, I thought she, I thought she handled it, handled it fine. And, and it's not easy. It really isn't easy. I thought the, I thought the audience was, it was interesting. They, they were clapping at points sometimes that I didn't expect them to, and then at other times, I'll tell you what, I think there were a lot of don't knows in there. I think you can tell a lot from somebody's face. And I think there were a lot of people really not quite sure about both. And that was, and the other thing that gets me in some of these debates, I think these debates should go back always to what, particularly for the party of government, what, what did they promise at the last election? Nothing on social care, that was such a big

• 16:29Alastair Campbell?

  thing at the last election. Yes, they did Brexit, but I thought on pensions, just show that, that he's quite a street fighter, Rishi Sunak, because it's clear Starmer pointed out in a very kind of technical way, our policy is what your policy was until this campaign started. Right. So how come that policy is now terrible, just because you've changed it during the campaign?

• 16:50Rory Stewart?

  But, but you did it a bit better. I, I think it's a really good point, but you did that a bit better by saying.

• 16:55Alastair Campbell?

  What do you mean?

• 16:56Rory Stewart?

  Well, if only Starmer had framed it in exactly those words.

• 16:59Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, I see.

• 17:00Rory Stewart?

  It would have been a bit more effective. I think it's, it was a good point, but it didn't quite land.

• 17:04Alastair Campbell?

  No.

• 17:04Rory Stewart?

  He managed to say, I think what he said is, this, it's the same as it was in the last budget.

• 17:09Alastair Campbell?

  Exactly.

• 17:10Rory Stewart?

  I mean, that's, that's a bit of a problem, what, what, with, with him not quite being quick enough on his feet.

• 17:15Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 17:15Rory Stewart?

  Like same as it was in the last budget. What he needed to say is, wait, wait a second, we have literally signed up to your plan in your budget, and you've just changed your mind in the last two weeks.

• 17:24Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah.

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• 18:41Alastair Campbell?

  I think there's a lot of comments coming in essentially saying that, I mean, I'm summarizing, but given that Sunak is, in the words of one of our viewers, toast, thinking that Keir Starmer should have done better against him. Lots of people are worried about my throat and my voice. Well, that's very kind.

• 18:58Rory Stewart?

  People worried about my gilet. They think I'm too hot.

• 19:00Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, the gilet. They think you've stolen it from Imran Khan, but that means you have to go into prison.

• 19:05Rory Stewart?

  Extremely talented.

• 19:06Alastair Campbell?

  There's James W. Rory cannot surely be in the UK with a gilet in the summer. He is in the UK. I know he's in the UK. No, so I think it was, I think it was okay. I, of course, you never know how long people stay with these things. Fiona was struggling at one point to kind of, you know, see it through to the end. I think that some of the messages I was getting through it were, and it's fascinating. This has completely changed the nature of viewing. It's the same with sport now, Rory. When you're watching football now, not if you're in the stadium, it's different. But if you're watching football on television now. You're following it on social, you're watching it, you're following it on social media, you're talking to your mates on WhatsApp about it as well. And it's the same with these debates now.

• 19:49Alastair Campbell?

  I was getting, I was trying to concentrate to make notes for our discussion. And you keep getting these messages saying, that was shit.

• 19:55Rory Stewart?

  And you know, what was shit? You're totally right. You completely can't concentrate. You're exactly right. There am I sending what I think is a tweet. And then I realised that instead of saying, will someone fix the broken relationship with Europe? I've put bromide relationship with Europe. Meanwhile, I've missed the.

• 20:13Alastair Campbell?

  No, it was, it was, it was, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. When we said, we talked on the main podcast about, or it might have been the Q and A that we put out earlier today, whether we thought these things would, would endure. And this has bored our listeners, our audience. One of them say, Alistair, have you ever met any famous footballers? I'm not talking about Diego Marra, bloody dollar on this thing. The other thing to say, by the way, I thought the Kier's point, Kier Starmer's point about investment from private sector. This event that I was at earlier, it was the Association of British Ports. And it was really interesting because the Danish guy, who's the chief executive, and he was, he made this really, really quite impressive speech. It was all about, he essentially said, July the 5th cannot come soon enough

• 20:59Alastair Campbell?

  because we are, we are going to have an opportunity to reset, reset some of the challenges we're facing on trade, on the environment, on net zero. And we're going to have to do it with real, genuine partnership with government, which they obviously feel has been lacking somewhat. And, and so, and, and I, it was interesting to, I, I asked them, Rory, I think you've done the same. I asked them, so I was speaking at about six o'clock. I asked for a show of hands as to how many would watch the debate. Now, this thing was at Somerset House, there was drinks on the terrace afterwards. It was a very, very, very low number.

• 21:32Rory Stewart?

  It's unbelievable. I was saying that I did these big, these big events recently. I've been doing events with twelve hundred, fourteen hundred people in live, live audiences, day after day for the last few weeks. And I keep asking the question, these are obviously people who are interested in politics. They wouldn't be turning up to, to these shows and maybe five percent of the audience are watching these debates. Now, that'll be very different with the US debate, and I'm really looking forward to getting into the US debate with you. This Trump Biden debate, I think, will be absolutely vital because it's doing something a bit different. In this case, we know that both of these people are reasonably bright, reasonably competent. We've seen them perform back and forth in prime ministers' questions.

• 22:16Rory Stewart?

  And fundamentally, this is an election about booting out the Tories. And we know, I know, you're still holding off, knowing that Starmer is going to be next prime minister. But in America, when a debate happens, which is fifty fifty, when both sides are suggesting the other person is actually not mentally competent. When people are going to be watching how Biden walks across the stage. I mean, you know, the stakes then, it's like a kind of gladiatorial fight.

• 22:41Alastair Campbell?

  I know. And also, it will be, I think, was you telling me earlier that they're going to, they're going to mute the mics when, so when Biden speaks, they mute Trump. When Trump speaks, they mute Biden. It'd be interesting whether Trump still feels that his very rude and aggressive shtick is the right way to go. By the way, Rory, I took up your, your GB News.

• 23:03Rory Stewart?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. How was it? How was it?

• 23:04Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I did it with Andrew Pearce. He was very polite. He allowed me to talk loads about my books. He, he had a little pop about me and John Major and underpants. And I said to Andrew Pearce, I really don't think you want to be talking about men and underpants. But they were perfectly nice and perfectly polite.

• 23:21Alastair Campbell?

  I don't, honestly, I haven't got a clue how many people watch it. Didn't get much feedback from, from, from doing it. But no, the American debate is going to be mega, absolutely mega, because it's around the world. I mean, I'd be very surprised. Would any foreign media have covered that debate tonight live? I doubt it.

• 23:39Rory Stewart?

  No, and of course, it's completely mystifying. I'm going, judging by my American mother-in-law watching it, it's totally mystifying to an international audience because they simply don't get any of the references. She's like, what's the triple plus, lock plus pension? And I'm like, shh, I've got to go. Listen, let's just finish because we're getting quite a lot of this stuff of people raising issues that weren't raised. And I suppose that's a good, good, good way to maybe wrap up a little bit. This has been the last of many debates, which are beginning to look a bit repetitive. And they keep focusing on the same things. But what are they not focusing on? You mentioned they're not focusing on Gaza. They're not focusing on adult social care. They're not focusing on mental health. They're not focusing on climate and the environment.

• 24:22Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 24:22Rory Stewart?

  There's no mention of Scotland, Wales, biodiversity.

• 24:26Alastair Campbell?

  Foreign policy generally.

• 24:28Rory Stewart?

  Foreign policy in general.

• 24:29Alastair Campbell?

  Nothing. Relations with the US, NATO, a lot of stuff. And I think that, I think they're still trapped in this sort of thing that they, you know, you can imagine that I've been sitting around all day thinking, well, what orders should do it? And they say, oh, we've got to start with betting, because that's the lead story. But you know that nothing new was going to come out of that. You just knew that was going to be five minutes of, you know, really nothing there. I thought the most interesting discussions, anyway, I think the welfare, because welfare to work and disability hasn't really featured much in the debate. I think that was, that was useful. Ditto councils. Brexit came up, but I sort of feel that it went downhill from the question.

• 25:09Rory Stewart?

  Matthew Lang, nothing on homelessness.

• 25:11Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, or housing.

• 25:12Rory Stewart?

  Housing, poverty.

• 25:15Alastair Campbell?

  Sewage.

• 25:16Rory Stewart?

  Water lays, yeah.

• 25:17Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, yeah. No, I think, look, you can't cover everything. You know that when we're doing the podcast, you cannot cover everything. But I think in a debate like that.

• 25:25Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, but I would have thought, I mean, let's say that we agreed that the key thing in for both parties is this question of growth. I mean, given that both parties are basically refusing to borrow, saying they're not going to put up taxes, saying they're going to cut spending. So it's all about growth. And growth presumably has got to come from planning reform. It's got to come from AI.

• 25:51Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 25:51Rory Stewart?

  It's got to come from a closer relationship with Europe.

• 25:53Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm.

• 25:54Rory Stewart?

  And probably, given that the public services are in trouble, there's got to be serious reforms to the NHS.

• 25:59Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm.

• 26:00Rory Stewart?

  Um, and that means fights on regulation, on unions, on biodiversity, on climate, on Europe. That's what's going to define the next five years. And I, is there any way that they, Michelle Hussein or the BBC could have got those NHS questions?

• 26:15Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I think all of them, all of them. They obviously made it, made a decision about what they felt had to be covered. And then two or three that, as I say, were maybe less obvious ones that they, but I think it's a very, very kind of media driven sort of narrative and agenda, even though the questions are coming from members of the public, you know. And I, I, I think that the, the, sometimes in these, in these question time type programmes, sometimes the left field question that's about something that's not topical will actually produce a, a better debate. I think on the economy generally and that stuff, I mean, they're both now so rehearsed in their lines.

• 26:55Alastair Campbell?

  Keir Starmer knows that there's, there's somebody, Michael Maylie, can you explain the Ming Vars strategy? Essentially, you saw that, Michael, is that Keir Starmer has worked out the strategy, he's got the plan, he knows what to campaign on, he knows all the difficult questions, he's worked out he's the best way to deal with them, to deal with them. So carrying the Ming Vars means that you're cautiously entering into the campaign because you worry about dropping the Ming Vars. Whereas Rishi Sunak, who's the kind of, the guy who's having to really put up a fight, he's the guy who's kind of lashing out more, taking, if you like, more risks, uh, because he's, he's so far behind. So essentially it's just about holding on to it.

• 27:34Rory Stewart?

  We're getting a lot of people tweeting saying there's, there's been a soup in Bolivia, uh, but I, others saying there's been a coup in Bolivia.

• 27:41Alastair Campbell?

  I think it must be coup, yeah. Oh, Lord, not another one. Wow.

• 27:44Rory Stewart?

  But that, that's, that's, that's worth looking at. So this is, um, President Bolivian man called Lucho.

• 27:50Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 27:50Rory Stewart?

  Bolivian banker economist and politician. Um, we'll, we'll get into that the proper part, but that, that, that's very interesting. I mean, people will remember there were six coup d'etat in, in Africa last year, replacing pro-Western elected governments with pro-Russian military governments.

• 28:06Alastair Campbell?

  You know what, you know, I think, I think what will happen after the debate is that, um, uh, there'll be lots of journalists going, phew. Coup in Bolivia, we can talk about that now instead.

• 28:20Alastair Campbell?

  The one piece of breaking news, and I see somebody else during the debate, Fiona, who was looking at her phone, said that Philip Davis was involved in this betting thing. I've always, he's always struck me as quite a nasty piece of work. So no doubt the producer can check out whether I'm saying something that's not true, in which case I'll obviously apologize. But I think he's involved in the betting industry as well. I could be wrong about that, but I think he might be.

• 28:44Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's getting normal.

• 28:45Alastair Campbell?

  Let's get the researchers, let's get the researchers. Alistair, unrelated, but why do all of your book covers look like?

• 28:52Rory Stewart?

  Craft beers, craft beers.

• 28:54Alastair Campbell?

  I don't even know what that means.

• 28:58Alastair Campbell?

  What are you talking about? Great lamp, Rory. I don't think this debate set the world on fire. Oh, here's one. Jonathan Rowe, development team. Hardly a single question in any of the debates about education. This is something we talked to Bridget Phillips and David Blunkhead about. Is that education just isn't high enough up the agenda? And that's, that's for both campaigns to address.

• 29:20Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, and you can, you could always find a way. I mean, it's interesting also because they were able to lever things in. I mean, obviously, one of their tricks is to, you know, in, in the case of Keir Starmer, he clearly wanted to put the NHS and waiting lists in the answer to almost any questions, no matter where it's come from. But it's, it's interesting that for some reason they're not putting education, because you could do the same with education, right? I mean, in fact, I think you did that, didn't you? In 97, you could make the education the answer to almost every problem in the country.

• 29:47Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely.

• 29:47Rory Stewart?

  From growth through some, you know, child poverty to social mobility.

• 29:51Alastair Campbell?

  Absolutely. Now, listen, the producer, having been asked gently to check out the Philip Davis thing, has sent me this saying, for Tory, Sir Philip Davis, I mean, for God's sake, another of Boris Johnson's cronies, made eight thousand pound bet that he would lose his seat. A long time supporter of the gambling industry, he's said to have wagered he'd be defeated in shift.

• 30:13Rory Stewart?

  That's what the Labour candidate's been suspended from.

• 30:15Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but hold on, the Labour candidate, as I understand it, is in a seat where he's got no chance. This is a guy who's the serving MP with a 6,200 majority.

• 30:24Rory Stewart?

  Well, I mean, my mother's been on to me on that. She thinks it's even more shocking than betting on the day of the election because she thinks that's what happens in sport where you actually throw the match.

• 30:33Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. If this was, if there was a cricketer who's betting on getting out for naught.

• 30:39Rory Stewart?

  You're going to lose the match.

• 30:40Alastair Campbell?

  Right. You could put a million pounds on to say that, you know, if you're an opening batsman for, seriously, that's the equivalent.

• 30:46Rory Stewart?

  I agree, it's unbelievable.

• 30:47Alastair Campbell?

  And Rory, let me tell you.

• 30:48Rory Stewart?

  Then you set out to lose your election. Well, presumably Steve Baker can be pretty confident of that, given that he's sitting on an island in Greece during the entire campaign.

• 30:56Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I wonder how many of them have actually done this. I think, I am genuinely, genuinely shocked by that. You're the serving MP, you're going around presumably campaigning and saying, I deserve to be re-elected and I can win.

• 31:08Rory Stewart?

  Well, presumably not if he's trying to make these.

• 31:10Alastair Campbell?

  And he's put money on himself to lose. I think that's a matter for.

• 31:14Rory Stewart?

  Eight thousand pounds is a colossal sum of money to.

• 31:16Alastair Campbell?

  It's eight of your pots Rory, it's eight pots.

• 31:18Rory Stewart?

  It's a triple up the pots. No, but for someone MP's salary, that's a colossal amount of money.

• 31:22Alastair Campbell?

  Now Rory, let me just tell you, I checked out, I know you probably don't look at the FA Football Association website very often. I looked at it this morning, right? What is the guidance to footballers on betting?

• 31:31Rory Stewart?

  Yep.

• 31:31Alastair Campbell?

  A worldwide ban on betting on football was introduced for all those involved in the game, Premier League, Football League, National League, FA Women's Super League and FA Women's Championship, as well as those at clubs in the Northern, Southern and Ismail Leagues. In other words, virtually all footballers, you cannot bet on football anywhere in the world. Right? Why are they held to much, much higher standards? Philip Davis has says he's done nothing illegal. Well, I don't really care whether it's legal or illegal, it is totally wrong and it's politically one of the most stupid things I've ever heard in my life.

• 32:04Rory Stewart?

  It was also politically insane.

• 32:06Alastair Campbell?

  It's unbelievable.

• 32:07Rory Stewart?

  Because his constituents are going to be so enraged with him.

• 32:10Alastair Campbell?

  You're about to go to vote for him. Right, you're a voter. Somebody wants your mum to come on the podcast Rory. Honestly, you're in a campaign and you've bet and I get it's wrong, wrong whoever you are. But that is, I don't very often get shocked. I'm genuinely shocked by that. Isn't he the one who's on GB News with with his wife?

• 32:29Rory Stewart?

  He's married to Esther McVeigh. No, he's not married to Esther McVeigh, is he? No, he's not married to her. He's just a very close friend of hers. God, that's terrible. I'm so sorry. I think they're just very close friends and have been very close friends for a long time. They're very good friends in Parliament.

• 32:39Alastair Campbell?

  Are they close friends or are they?

• 32:41Rory Stewart?

  No, no, no. I think they're just close friends. I'm sorry. I don't know why. Sorry. It's just that I saw them together a lot in Parliament. They're not married.

• 32:47Alastair Campbell?

  Right. But are they married to other people at all?

• 32:50Rory Stewart?

  No, I don't know. I don't think there's any strange things going on.

• 32:53Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, fine. It's just that you see.

• 32:54Rory Stewart?

  Not trying to imply anything strange. No, no, it's, they just are very close.

• 32:57Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I, may I be the first?

• 32:58Rory Stewart?

  It was very interesting because Esther McVeigh was in the Cabinet at one point and Philip Davis is like the definitional backbencher, the thorn in the government's side. So it was always a kind of really interesting dynamic, that one.

• 33:09Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Somebody's surprised at my moral outrage, but I just think it's, it's so, so wrong. I think I'm going to be the first person, I hope I'm the first person to say, I think Philip Davis should be stripped of his knighthood for this. What do you think, Rory?

• 33:21Rory Stewart?

  That's right. That's, you should put it out on Twitter. That'll get 20,000 likes immediately.

• 33:25Alastair Campbell?

  Exactly. Somebody says that they, they are married. No, we've just had an instruction from the, the producer saying we have to end on a positive note.

• 33:31Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's actually from a listener called James McCoibh.

• 33:34Alastair Campbell?

  Oh, okay. Thank you, James.

• 33:35Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, well, it's just very good. I noticed Harry Cole's been mocking me for putting out debate advice with a picture of me in my final debate against Boris Johnson with my tie off, my head in my hands.

• 33:45Alastair Campbell?

  Harry Cole's just never going to get over the fact that, that our debates with each other in the middle of the night get more viewers, more viewers than his with Keir Starbrough and Rishi Sunak. Or we get lots of people. Yeah, they're married, according to Yamsby.

• 34:00Rory Stewart?

  It's Yamsby. Oh, well, they are married. That's wonderful.

• 34:02Alastair Campbell?

  God says, Jeanette, I wish Tatten would vote Esther McVeigh out. Yeah, Tatten was brilliant. Tatten was brilliant because we won that in 1997 with Martin Bell.

• 34:09Rory Stewart?

  Nick D. On 19th September 2020, Davis married McVeigh in a private ceremony. So after I left Parliament, so there was I thinking they'd just been close friends in Parliament, but obviously it was becoming a bit more romantic.

• 34:19Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah. Now, maybe this is the final question, Rory, because I'm sure you'll have watched both very closely. McCollough, what was the more boring, that debate or the England-Slovenia game?

• 34:28Rory Stewart?

  Oh, oh, good. Okay, let, let, go on, tell us about the, wait, can keep us up to date here. So, England, go on, tell us what's happening, because you keep telling me England's rubbish, but you also told me they're definitely going through to the quarterfinals.

• 34:39Alastair Campbell?

  They are through. I think they're playing Slovakia. So that's actually pretty, pretty good draw. Again, Dom will correct me if I'm wrong. But the, no, the, the last night's game was really, really, really, really dull, really dull. And, but England fans, I mean, Scotland fans, like Scotland didn't play very well, but the Scotland fans cheered them off. They, they were nice to everybody. The England fans were throwing stuff at Gareth, at Gareth Southgate.

• 35:03Rory Stewart?

  Here's a really positive, optimistic thing to end on then.

• 35:06Alastair Campbell?

  Go on, no.

• 35:06Rory Stewart?

  Positive, optimistic thing to end on is that when people stay up to watch the debate between Biden and Trump.

• 35:13Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 35:13Rory Stewart?

  They will be incredibly relieved and pleased about the debate we just watched. Whatever the flaws are of Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer, Britain is not facing the horrible, horrible, horrible threat that's happening in the United States. And we should be very, very grateful in Britain that we have a slightly boring lawyer against a slightly boring banker.

• 35:34Alastair Campbell?

  Ah, okay. Yeah, I, I, I see what you mean. Yeah, because I, I actually will watch the entire American debate with a sense of nervous energy, anxiety, a lot of emotion will be flooding through my veins. Whereas tonight, yeah, you sort of got the feeling from the word go, this is going to be all right. And also, by the way, Katie Kay and, and the Mooch are going live after the debate and we're, we're going to get into it next week too. Yeah, no, it's a big, big, big, big thing. And.

• 36:05Rory Stewart?

  Huge, huge thing, huge thing. And I thought that was strangely, with all the big problems in the world and, and soups in Bolivia, I thought it was a sort of slightly reassuring kind of British occasion. BBC, people shouting outside so you can really hear anything.

• 36:21Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, I enjoy, I quite enjoyed that.

• 36:22Rory Stewart?

  And, and even its boringness was probably something that's gonna, gonna cheer us up.

• 36:28Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 36:28Rory Stewart?

  Okay. All right. Thank you, Ansu, very much.

• 36:31Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that's three in, three in two days, Rory. I mean, they're working like dogs. And, you know, what with you doing book tours and me doing book tours and.

• 36:38Rory Stewart?

  And my tooth.

• 36:39Alastair Campbell?

  And with your tooth, is it better?

• 36:40Rory Stewart?

  See, I've got very big swollen upper lip.

• 36:42Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 36:43Rory Stewart?

  It's I look like a Neanderthal.

• 36:45Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, but you look better than you did yesterday when you took it out.

• 36:48Rory Stewart?

  It's absolutely unbelievable. I've been on these horrible drugs. And I've been, you know, when I, if anybody listens to Question Time, I just have to apologize.

• 36:57Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, no, you were a bit, you were a bit, you were a bit wobbly. I think confusing the IFS and the IMF was a

• 37:03Rory Stewart?

  This is a bad note.

• 37:05Alastair Campbell?

  All right, we'll sleep well.

• 37:06Rory Stewart?

  Right. Thank you. Bye. Thanks again. Bye.

• 37:11Speaker 04

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• 37:15Speaker 05

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• 37:35Speaker 06

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• 37:37Speaker 05

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