#2390 - Jack Carr

Jack Carr is a bestselling author, retired Navy SEAL, and host of several podcasts, including “Danger Close." His newest book, "Cry Havoc,” is available now.www.officialjackcarr.com https://www.youtube.com/@JackCarrUSA https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Cry-Havoc/Jack-Carr/9781668095256 Visible. Live in the know. Join today at https://www.visible.com/rogan Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:13Joe Rogan?

  My man, what's happening? Good to see you, my brother.

• 0:15Speaker 02

  How are you? Great to see you.

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  Always great to see you.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  I've been so looking forward to this. Been going a thousand miles an hour for, it seems like, a long time.

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  Me too, man. And I've been really looking forward to talking to you about this book, because I know that you've been obsessed. You've been obsessed by this era in human history. And tell us about it.

• 0:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So this is 1968 Vietnam, and I just launched the book tour, not last night, but the night before, because last night was Comedy Mothership, Kill Tony, which was amazing. It was a blast. It was so crazy.

• 0:41Joe Rogan?

  The best show to go to.

• 0:41Speaker 02

  Did they vet any of those people, by the way, before they come up? Yeah. Didn't look like it.

• 0:45Joe Rogan?

  Insane people, brilliant people, great comics, terrible comics.

• 0:48Speaker 02

  That was fantastic.

• 0:49Joe Rogan?

  That's the best show ever.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  That was fantastic. But yeah, I kicked off the book tour with David Morell, who created Rambo back in 1972 with First Blood. So that was a huge honor for me. He's been an inspiration to me my whole life. And I wrote a series of books in the 80s, Brotherhood of the Rose, Fraternity of the Stone, League of Night and Fog, which were just incredible. And I got to kick off the book tour with him out there. Signed a baby for the first time. I've never signed a baby. Someone brought a baby through and asked me to sign their kid. I was like, uh. It does. And then I realized they just wanted me to sign the shirt on the baby, which was a little better than the actual skin of the baby. So I did that.

• 1:21Joe Rogan?

  I'd be worried they would tattoo the baby.

• 1:22Speaker 02

  That was, two new tattoos came through. So I saw two new, very large tattoos of crossed tomahawks.

• 1:27Joe Rogan?

  Crossed tomahawks, nice.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  That's crazy. I mean, you've had that for a while. You've had people doing that for a while for you. But I remember the first time I got one, I think it was after, I think it was after I was on, or right around the same time the first time I was on, it's like 2020, the first time I saw it, and I texted you and sent it. Someone tattooed the crossed tomahawks on themselves. And, you know, I'd say, I knew you'd had that with you for a while. And if it was weird the first time someone, you see it. Like, now it's kind of, must be kind of normal, because a lot of people have tattoos of you.

• 1:51Joe Rogan?

  It's not normal. It's not normal. You know, it's weird. It's very weird. They'll probably grow to regret them.

• 1:59Speaker 02

  Never. That doesn't happen with tattoos, does it?

• 2:02Joe Rogan?

  Not mine. I don't regret mine. I like mine.

• 2:04Speaker 02

  It's a life story. It's a life story.

• 2:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's, you know, depends on what you got.

• 2:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and timing and maybe if you got someone's name on there that's no longer a part of your life.

• 2:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, maybe the wife wants you to get that removed.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  Perhaps.

• 2:17Joe Rogan?

  Turn it into a snake.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  I've heard that. Exactly. Exactly. But, uh, but yeah, the book, 1968, Vietnam, and I thought this was gonna be the, but the book that was gonna take me the least amount of time because I thought I had this foundation of knowledge when it comes to warfare, Vietnam in particular, those lessons. Uh, I've had the influence of popular culture when it comes to the 60s and Vietnam as well, growing up. So I thought I was, I was well-prepared to dive into this world. And I didn't want to just say that they're listening to Creedence Clearwater Revival and that it's 1968 and then essentially drop a contemporary thriller into the 60s and Vietnam, 1968. Uh, instead, I wanted someone who lived through that era to know that I put in the effort. And any sentence had to be written through the lens of 1968 without the benefit of 50-plus years of hindsight.

• 3:01Speaker 02

  So if someone is, you know, 70 years old, 50 years old, 20 years old, they only have their life experience up to that point to, uh, make a decision for perspective on an event. Uh, and that took a lot more time than I thought. I got a dictionary from 1969. Uh, I couldn't find the one from 1968 I wanted, so I got a dictionary from 1969 to look out at how terms were defined back then, a lot of maps from the era. And it was just a, it took a lot longer, which is why we're here in October and not in Janu- uh, June when the book was supposed to come out.

• 3:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow. So what, so when you get a dictionary from 1968, what is the difference?

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Well, that's what I wanted to find out.

• 3:38Joe Rogan?

  Is there a lot of difference?

• 3:39Speaker 02

  Uh, I'm sure there is, but I was looking at just some specific terms that I can't even remember what they are right now.

• 3:45Joe Rogan?

  And you just wanted to look them up through that book?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't want to Google something today. I wanted to be doing this research as if I was in the 60s. And so if I needed to look something up, whether it was spelling or whatever else, I wanted to use that instead of like asking Google machine. So I just wanted to transport myself back in time. And, uh, yeah, that was, that was quite the endeavor. I didn't expect at the outset, so.

• 4:05Joe Rogan?

  I feel like this, that war in particular is, uh...

• 4:13Joe Rogan?

  It's like, World War II was what we think America is. Vietnam is what America really is.

• 4:22Speaker 02

  That is a very perceptive insight.

• 4:24Joe Rogan?

  So, World War II, we were fighting evil. We were stopping the rise of Hitler and the Third Reich. World, World War II was just. Vietnam was fucking nonsense. And it's still, to this day, it infuriates people that participated in it. It infuriates people who lost family members. It doesn't, it didn't make any sense. It was birthed on a lie. It was a complete false flag event that our own government. They, they lied to us and told us that, that the Gulf of Tonkin, there was an incident where one of our battleships was attacked, and it wasn't. It was all a lie.

• 5:09Joe Rogan?

  And it was just to get us into this fucking war. And there's a whole bunch of people that made a whole bunch of money, and a bunch of people died. And at the end of it, everybody felt broken. And during it, there was a gigantic cultural revolution in the middle of it. That's the real America.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it's a...

• 5:31Speaker 02

  It's something that I explore in the book. And with the benefit of hindsight, it's certainly more, um, it, it, it's more not relevant, but, uh, you, you can, you can draw that out for sure, the benefit of hindsight. And I'm trying to write this thing in 1968 from these guys. So they're having these conversations with only that information. So they don't yet know who's making a ton of money. They're not yet knowing about Bell helicopters and, and all the rest of this stuff. They're not, they don't really know yet about Gulf of Tonkin. Um, they just know that 1968 is the bloodiest year thus far of the war. And it's gonna be the bloodiest year of the war so far, which is why I said it in that year.

• 6:05Joe Rogan?

  How many people died that year?

• 6:07Speaker 02

  Uh, well, fifty-eight, over fifty-eight thousand in total. And I forget exactly how many for that particular year, but we lost more people that year and had more people wounded than any other year of the war. But over fifty-eight thousand people died in Vietnam, on our side, to say nothing of the Vietnamese. And NVA, Viet Cong, civilians, you know, all put together, but certainly a lot more than 58,000.

• 6:28Joe Rogan?

  And over what?

• 6:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, looking back, so I'm trying to look at it through the lens of the day. And when you look at that, the domino thing, we look back and say, of course, the rest of the world wouldn't have fallen to communism. But at the time, I tried to put myself into the shoes of the people making these decisions. And there, at least for Southeast Asia, there was the threat of other countries falling. Even if they did, would that have meant anything long-term for the rest of us today? It's hard to say that it would have. But, I mean, the whole thing is so heartbreaking. And you're right, when we got back from World War II, those guys had parades, they got back to work, they used the GI Bill, they built this country into what it is today. Vietnam, those guys, it was looked at like they went bankrupt. It was like a company going bankrupt.

• 7:13Joe Rogan?

  Not only that, when they came back, they were called baby killers, they were met at the airport by protesters.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  They had all that to deal with, all that baggage to deal with. And that left a scar on an entire generation. And really, you know, a lot of that started with the Kennedy assassination in 1963. And then we move on into the war, and this becomes the first televised war. So there were photographs of the Civil War. There's photographs, World War I, World War II, we're getting the newsreels, when you go to the movies on Saturday and see the matinee, and you're getting those. But that's a very different type of way to get your news, because you're seeing it once a week, or you're seeing a still photograph in a paper. Then we get to Vietnam, and now you're seeing it every day on the news. You're seeing Walter Cronkite there, give you that news, and you're watching these guys in foxholes, and you're seeing this shooting, and you're seeing this chaos. And then also, the media, I think this is the first time where the media realizes they

• 8:03Speaker 02

  have, they're not just a pillar as a check on government, they realize at this point that they actually have power to influence events and policy. So how they report from Vietnam, very different from how reporters, even in Korea, but let's say, World War II, very different from how reporters reported on that war. And now, I think in Vietnam, you have these guys in Saigon, and they realize, and they're staying at these amazing hotels, and they're partying it up at night, and some of them are going to the outskirts of town, so it looks like they're out in the rice paddies or whatever, and then they're going back to Their hotel for for drinks, but they realized during this time that they can influence policy. And so that's what we see with the Ted offensive. We see that as a complete is a complete tactical win for the United States, but it becomes a loss for us, a huge strategic loss for us because of the way that it's reported.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  And the the media is involved in that. So if they didn't know it before. What was the issue? The media distorted what was going on? Yeah.

• 8:56Joe Rogan?

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• 9:59Joe Rogan?

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• 11:22Joe Rogan?

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• 11:54Speaker 02

  We just ordered what was what was going on and and talked about this huge victory for the for the NBA and for North Vietnam. And it wasn't really, but it was when they reported it that way. And then we see more of America turning against this war and and policy shifts and more people shipped into Vietnam. So it's a, I mean, the whole thing is so is so sad and I try to humanize it and personalize it in this book because you can read about, I think that's the importance of reading fiction also, because you're you can, you get a compassion there and an empathy for people because you're living something through their eyes, even though it's fiction, that you don't get really through through nonfiction. You can read about all these numbers, you can read about 58,000, but when you read

• 12:37Speaker 02

  a story like this, then you're getting to know these characters and you're going through this thing with them and that then becomes a part of your experience. So even say, let's say Bud's going through going through SEAL training. Yeah, I'm thinking back to Normandy and I'm thinking back to. To Iwo Jima, I'm thinking back to Vietnam and what these guys had to go through. And then I'm realizing, oh, I can do a few more pushups in the sand here in Coronado, California. All those guys died and sacrificed so much so that I could be here. But some of that comes through the works of fiction, too. The thrillers that I was reading growing up from guys who had backgrounds in Vietnam or just from things they were dealing with in contemporary thrillers of the day. But that became part of my experience and I didn't have to. And it's almost like you're living it, even though it's all made up. So that's the important of reading in general.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  And the beacon of reading, when we go, when we look at 2003 to 2025 and the drop off in reading that has occurred, that is scary.

• 13:30Joe Rogan?

  Is it, do you think that's because of the internet?

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. I mean, it's quite, it corresponds almost directly with the rise of the smartphone. And of course, it continues to drop today. So I think I'm getting into publishing and Hollywood and probably one of the worst times in the last hundred years that one could decide to do something like this with AI and all, and all the rest of it. It's and less people reading and less people, there's no backside, there's no box office for movies anymore.

• 13:53Joe Rogan?

  No, the worst time to get into it is tomorrow.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, good point.

• 13:56Joe Rogan?

  It's way better that you already have The Terminalist and The Dark Wolf on TV. Yeah, you're way better off. Trying today, they'd be like, we have no use for scripts. We wrote our own, we wrote a hundred scripts in the time it took you to walk up the stairs.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I know.

• 14:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we put in prompts, I want a Vietnam thriller involving a handsome football player who tries to go do the best for his country, realizes like Pat Tillman style, gets disillusioned when he gets there.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a thing. I think CIA, my talent agency, just sent me a thing the other day and said that one of these OpenAI deals, they, I think it was a $1.5 billion settlement or something and that they'd use my books and I'm sure they've used this podcast, I'm sure they've used all sorts of things. But, but the settlement out of that for me is possibly a thousand dollars.

• 14:44Joe Rogan?

  Congratulations.

• 14:44Speaker 02

  Well, thank you. And I thought, well, my attorney's gonna be, is my attorney only gonna take an hour to do this? Because that's about, makes it a, you know, a net. Exactly. So, but then do you not do it? Because then they just hold them, I don't know. It's, it's crazy.

• 14:57Joe Rogan?

  Take the thousand.

• 14:59Speaker 02

  But then I have to pay like six thousand to get to thousand.

• 15:01Joe Rogan?

  Do you really?

• 15:02Speaker 02

  I would think they're gonna spend. I'm sure they're gonna spend like six hours.

• 15:05Joe Rogan?

  They can't just give it to you?

• 15:05Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I mean, if I even ask the question, the thousand's gone, you know?

• 15:10Joe Rogan?

  Cut me a check, bitch.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  It's, I don't think it works that way.

• 15:12Joe Rogan?

  Oh, no.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  So I don't even know. But the AI part is interesting. I was talking to, um, so I was in Morocco filming, uh, True Believer. Yeah, just a couple of weeks ago. So we finished up filming out there with Pratt and everybody. It was amazing. And, uh, and yeah, from Morocco, you fly through France on the way home. So I stopped in Paris for a few days, met my wife out there, met some other friends out there, went to a bunch of dinners and things like that. But one of them's a guy named Rick Rosenfield. He started California Pizza Kitchen back in 1985. And, uh, they were gonna put one in one of the Wynn Hotels in Vegas. And, uh, we're talking about AI and that's how this, this plays in here. And he said, he told me this story and I'll get, this is the general gist. It might be not the exact detail, but the general gist is right. They're gonna put one into one of the Wynn casinos. And so he goes in there with, uh, with Steve Wynn and they're walking through and Waylon Jennings is with them.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  So they're all, there's three, these three guys, Steve Wynn, Vic Rosenfield and Waylon Jennings. And they go in and Steve Wynn says, hey, uh, Waylon, we have this cover band. We have this guy that does just your cover tunes. He's a huge fan of yours and I'd appreciate if you said, you said hi to him. And Waylon Jennings is like, yeah, no problem. So the cover band guy is like Jalen Wennings or something. Let's call him that. I don't know what his real name is. But, uh, sits down and they're having drinks and the guy's like, I, I love, I love all your stuff. Thank you so much. I hope it's okay that, that I'm doing these cover bands, but you're, I just idolize you. And Waylon Jennings is sitting there. He goes, oh yeah, no, no problem. Uh, only there is one problem though, uh, with what you're doing. And the guy's like, what, what, what? And he said, you're always one album behind. And I was like, oh.

• 16:35Speaker 02

  And this guy told me this story in the context of AI and someone using my books to write another book that is, has a similar tone or write this in the style of Jack Carr with some prompts. And I was saying that I was a little concerned about this and just don't know what's going, gonna happen in the future. And he told me that story. And so I'm like, oh, that's fantastic. They're always gonna be a book behind.

• 16:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but AI is not a cover band. AI is a lot smarter than us. That's the problem. The problem is, you know, I don't know if you're paying attention to what it's been doing with music. But like, so Jamie, show them some of the interviews.

• 17:08Speaker 02

  Oh, I saw those. Oh, my gosh.

• 17:09Joe Rogan?

  That you made.

• 17:10Speaker 02

  I showed them up there. Yeah, yeah. Those are crazy.

• 17:13Joe Rogan?

  This is crazy. So people, Muhammad Ali, yeah, on the podcast.

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, Michael Jackson.

• 17:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Michael Jackson on the podcast. And it's not. It's not difficult for it to do stuff like that. And so that we're not talking about a cover band. We're talking about someone that can do something or something that can accomplish a task that human beings can't.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  Man, now I'm bummed out again. I was all positive a second ago.

• 17:35Joe Rogan?

  Play that.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  This is so crazy.

• 17:37Speaker 04

  You gotta act like it every day. That mean working with nobody watching, staying humble, but never doubting yourself.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  You still carry that mindset now?

• 17:43Speaker 04

  Always in me forever. You don't stop being a champion just because the bell ain't rung.

• 17:47Speaker 05

  When you sit down like this with a microphone, you can't hide anything. Your breathing, your hesitation, even your heartbeat comes through. If you try to be some-

• 17:56Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible.

• 17:57Speaker 05

  You know, when you grow up with nothing, man, you learn quicker you can trust. Every smile, every handshake you weigh in this game, this country, they tell you their rules.

• 18:03Speaker 06

  They might, they might figure that one out.

• 18:04Joe Rogan?

  That one's terrible.

• 18:05Speaker 05

  What it helps them.

• 18:06Joe Rogan?

  That's terrible. That's someone else's-

• 18:07Speaker 04

  Man, you ever notice how life sneak up on you like a bill? You forgot you had one day, you cool, next day you're like, who left this responsibility on my porch?

• 18:14Joe Rogan?

  Stop that.

• 18:14Speaker 06

  But there are some that are good.

• 18:15Joe Rogan?

  Stop that. Stop that. That's not Richard Pryor's voice.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  You think the whole world is waiting for you to show up and then you find out the world was busy already. The trick is figuring out how to join in without losing your- I would say hearing it through these headphones now, you can hear that weird tinge. Like, that's supposed to be Lee Harvey Oswald. Doesn't really look like him.

• 18:32Joe Rogan?

  A little bit, like a really young Lee Harvey Oswald. Anyway, uh, we're fucked.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 18:38Joe Rogan?

  We're fucked. Bottom line is, and music is really fucked. Like, we were playing this 50 Cent cover.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:45Joe Rogan?

  They did a song, the song "Many Men", but they did it with like a soul singer from like the 1950s or 1960s. It's incredible. It's so good. It's like one of my favorite songs.

• 18:54Speaker 02

  Really?

• 18:55Joe Rogan?

  It's not even a real person.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 18:57Joe Rogan?

  It's not even a real person.

• 18:58Speaker 02

  We're aware of it.

• 18:59Joe Rogan?

  And it's so good. We were all in the green room the other night. We're like, if this guy was a real dude, he would be like biggest star in the world right now. Because everybody would want to hear him sing.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  I mean, Milli Vanilli just did it a little too early.

• 19:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, Milli Vanilli just lip synced. You know, this is a totally different experience. This is like, they're gonna create stuff with your voice better than anything you can do.

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Oh, it's so brutal. But for the kids, at least we're aware of it. So we can choose. Maybe we can choose. It's gonna be hard to, like, some of these things, it's gonna be hard to, to figure out at some point, but I almost think there needs to be, remember the parental advisories in the eighties? They put on CDs and stuff like that back then. Like, at least you know, like, if I want to go in, I want to buy this piece of art right here. And I walk into that store, and I love this thing. And I put it in my house, and it's there for 10 years, and I show everybody that comes in. But what if that thing is, I don't know that no one actually made that, that was just AI made that. And I find out 10 years later, is that different, is that a different experience now for me, do I feel cheated? I don't know.

• 19:52Joe Rogan?

  You should feel cheated.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, but if you buy it, there has to be a little thing on it, I don't know, that tells you, then you're aware.

• 19:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, part of what art is, is someone made it. You know, that's what makes it kind of cool. You know, if it was made by a computer, it doesn't seem, I don't, it doesn't have a piece of a person in it, you know?

• 20:08Speaker 02

  And are people gonna care, like our kids, are they gonna care?

• 20:10Joe Rogan?

  I don't know, because I don't care about that song, so I don't know what to say. It's, I don't want to be a hypocrite, but it's, it's inevitable. It's happening, you know, you're gonna have to deal with it and adapt, and I think what it means to be a person is going to change.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  That's so brutal.

• 20:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't think it's possible to avoid change, and this is the direction that change is going. And so, at your essence, like, what are you and who are you? You have to search for that in different ways. And you're probably not gonna be able to search for it the same way through music and books. If you find out that these music and books weren't actually written by like-minded people. Or is it that the lessons and the energy, say, the energy of the music and the lessons of the books, it is from people? Because what AI has done is they've absorbed all of the art that everyone has ever created, ever. In terms of literature and music and even comedy and whatever.

• 21:10Joe Rogan?

  And it's combined it together in a style that's completely variable. You can have it like Amy Winehouse, you can make it sound like Biggie Smalls, you can make it sound like anything. But it is all, it's imitating everything that humans have created and would still, will still affect humans. And maybe inspire us more. And maybe put a premium on something that's created by an actual human and not by AI. Maybe it'll become more valuable.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  Hope so.

• 21:43Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Hope so. Put the books on like, hey, this is made by an actual human. No AI was used. I haven't used it yet. I haven't used ChatGPT or anything like that. I can barely update my word. That's what I want to do. Like, keep my word updated. That's the main thing. But I know a lot of people that are using it and love it. And I actually have a relationship with this.

• 21:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I use perplexity for questions on the show now. It's a sponsor. And so like, every time we have questions, we'll... Look, it's a valuable resource. I feel like, especially for someone who does something like this, it'd be crazy to not use something like that. I don't think it's... Everyone thinks that change is bad. Everyone's scared of change. They were scared of the printing press. I mean, people have been scared of the wheel. They were scared of the locomotive. People are scared of everything.

• 22:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:22Joe Rogan?

  I'm not scared of it. I'm scared that it could potentially fuck up society, but I feel like that's just what's gonna happen. You know, it's just, we go through cycles. Go to Rome. Go look around. What happened? Where'd everybody go? You know, there's still people living here, but that society that built that, that fell apart. Same thing with Athens. Same thing with many, many, many places in the world. Societies crumble. There's a cycle. We are not immune to that cycle because we're aware of it. They are aware of it, too. They were all aware of crumbling civilizations and once great civilizations that had fallen. This episode is brought to you by Visible. You know that one friend who's always the first to know about everything?

• 23:05Joe Rogan?

  They've got a dozen tabs open constantly on their phone and in their head. To be that friend, you need wireless that can keep up. Visible is the ultimate wireless hack that lets you live in the know so you can follow a rabbit hole as long as you want. Get one line wireless with unlimited data, talk and text for $25 a month, taxes and fees included. Plus, Visible runs on Verizon's 5G network, so you get great coverage and a reliable connection without the premium cost. Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know? Make the switch at visible.com. Terms apply. See visible.com for planned features and network management details.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  I think if you learned a... If you... Learn to think for yourself, you think logically. If you read kids today, if they put that down that phone and just read, that is a superpower. They will get out there and crush. Read, work out, do some MMA, BJJ stuff, do a little boxing. But read, you are going to just leave everyone else in the dust when it comes to whatever you want to do next in life, out of high school, out of college, whatever it is. If you have that foundation, then you're wondering to be a more empathetic and passionate person, but you're going to have this knowledge base that other people are relying on, ChatGPT, whatever it is, their phone, whatever, to do that thinking for them.

• 24:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's amazing how many people just don't consume any nonfiction or fiction. They don't consume anything but like TikTok and Netflix.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Yes, it is absolutely brutal. Like I said about the time, enter to enter publishing. If you, I think that a great time is the nineties for that because you had, let's see, Michael Crichton, and then you had John Grisham. Like every other year, there was some Michael Crichton movie, and then a John Grisham movie, and they had the best directors, actors of the day, producers of the day, and then people bought books. They were still reading back then because there yet wasn't yet the internet. There wasn't yet all these other things that distract you. So those guys got to crush. That was like, I think that was maybe the golden age of being an author and adapting your stuff to film or television, mostly film back then. But those guys got to crush. And today, not as much. But it's fun, though. It's still fun to create, still fun to do all this, still fun to be in Morocco doing this stuff.

• 25:19Joe Rogan?

  There's guys like you that are still doing it. You know, it's still, it's still doable.

• 25:24Speaker 02

  Yep, still doable, that's for sure. But the payday's not the same.

• 25:27Joe Rogan?

  You did the right way, though. You know, you did it on Amazon. They gave you a lot of creative freedom. You got great people to work with. That's the right way. I mean, I'm a big fan of the Gray Man series. I think he does, he's a great writer. But his stuff is so much more violent and gritty than what was portrayed in the film. The film glossed it up and, you know, and made it a little pretty.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Right. That's what happens for the most part. It's like Carl Heisen.

• 25:55Joe Rogan?

  In Hollywood.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  Did you see A Bad Monkey with Vince Vaughn?

• 25:59Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  So it's on Apple.

• 26:01Joe Rogan?

  What is it?

• 26:02Speaker 02

  He's a cop that's kind of down on his luck and he's on suspension or whatever. And he lives in the Keys, so it has that whole Keys vibe and they film it down there. And so you recognize, if you've been there, you recognize all these places. But Carl Heisen is the author and he has this very unique style. But what he says about Hollywood is he drives to the border of California. He throws his book over the border. They throw a bunch of money back at him and he drives back to Florida. And that's how, and whatever happens, happens, you know? It's, so it's one way to look at it, but most authors aren't involved in their, in whatever happens. They like to get rid of that author right away. So you're not on set saying, you ruined my vision.

• 26:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I get that. I get that, but it seems like what you're doing is better because you're involved in it. And then it reaches your vision or as close as you're gonna get.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  You help add value. Yeah. You want to make it the best show you possibly can.

• 26:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. When I saw The Terminal List, I was like, this is about as close as you can get and do a TV show. And not have it rated, you know, NC 17, like super hyper graphic.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:01Joe Rogan?

  But, you know, it's, it's way harder to do that in a movie. To take a book.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  An hour and a half, two hours.

• 27:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Your books take hours to read.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we have seven hours for Dark Wolf, eight hours for The Terminal List. We have eight hours for True Believer.

• 27:15Joe Rogan?

  That's right. That's the way to do it.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that one, that has the hunting stuff in it. So once again, now, I think we'd like, for some reason, if we'd started with that or if I'd started with that as a book, that it would have been much more difficult because Amazon would have been much more hesitant. But since we had a success with The Terminal List, now they're taking this risk with us. Just like my publisher did. It would have been very easy as a publisher to say, hey, just do what you did in that first book. That was successful. So just take that same kind of stuff and just drop it maybe internationally or something like that.

• 27:40Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Instead, I had this whole journey across in the book. It's the Atlantic and the show, it's going to be the Pacific. But going across this, this, this journey of violent redemption. He still thinks he's gonna die, gets to Mozambique, still thinks he's gonna die, doesn't die yet. And so, because he has this tumor and then uses the skills from Iraq and Afghanistan to help with the poaching problem over there. And then the book really, this actual story kicks off from there, but I thought it was gonna be. Would be disingenuous to the reader to have this character that went through all the things that he went through in The Terminal List, all this traumatic stuff, losing his family, losing his whole troop in Afghanistan, and then all of a sudden he's okay and just out to save the world in the next book. And so I had to take him on this journey, and I kind of thought that my editor and publisher would say, hey, cut out the first third of this book and we got something here. Instead, they didn't say any of that, and they took this risk with me, and it really

• 28:24Speaker 02

  differentiated that book and me as an author. And now, Amazon's doing the same thing. So we have Chris Pratt going across the ocean, he's got this crazy long hair, he lost a ton of weight for this thing, he's like battling the storms and his demons, and then gets to Mozambique and same thing, goes through this second episode where he's out there doing this poacher thing, using his skills out there, and we filmed in Africa, so we got this amazing, just the landscapes, beautiful. It's probably one of the most beautiful visions of Africa that I've ever seen on film, it's just incredible. And Chris Pratt, Chris is totally into it, of course, and the guy who got to play Rich Hastings, I don't know if we can say his name yet, but he's awesome, he is so good. And so he's kind of like the older guy, kind of mentoring James Reese along, Chris Pratt, and he's a guy's guy, like he, I'll say his name, Arnold Vosloo, and so he's the bad

• 29:08Speaker 02

  guy from Blood Diamond and The Mummy, and just such an awesome guy. And he's a guy's, he's like one of us, and so you didn't need to tell him like what to do with the rifle, like he knew, he knew what to do with that double rifle, he's not messing around. Yeah, so it was so fun to do that. But that is a risk that Amazon's taking, is to do those first two episodes, to invest all this money in this thing, where, yeah, it has something to do with the development of the character, but not really to do with the rest of the story and him then saving the world. But they went along with it, and that's because they saw the numbers from the first, from the first season. And they'll never share those numbers with us, but we know what they are because there have been like almost no notes in this one. Like the first one, there was notes constantly, like they didn't want Chris to get somebody, they were very, they didn't want that to happen, and then we did it anyway, and they

• 29:52Speaker 02

  ended up being on every billboard in LA for the opening month.

• 29:54Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  All that, they didn't want the Secretary of Defense to die, they didn't want, so there was all sorts of things that they were very nervous about, but they ended up going with us, they ended up trusting us. But now, we didn't have to fight for it in the second season of Orange Dark Wolf because we have that trust. So that's pretty cool.

• 30:08Joe Rogan?

  That is nice. That's the beautiful thing about a success.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  Serious.

• 30:13Joe Rogan?

  They leave me alone.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Gives you more, gives you more freedom.

• 30:14Joe Rogan?

  Don't fuck it up.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 30:16Joe Rogan?

  Instead of like, we gotta make it better because it's not a hit, it's don't fuck it up.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. And Taylor, and Taylor was here.

• 30:21Joe Rogan?

  Taylor was awesome.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  So what a great guy.

• 30:23Joe Rogan?

  Such a good dude.

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Exactly, he's so cool.

• 30:26Joe Rogan?

  So, so different than like, that character that he plays in American Primal is so scary.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  So good.

• 30:32Joe Rogan?

  So good, so realistic, like you really believe he's a fucking savage. Like you really believe everything about it, the way he fucks people up, like what he, even what he looks like. Like you talked about how much weight he lost for that. When he takes his clothes off and you see the scars all over his body, like whoa.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, they went through it on that one. I know Pete Berg on too, yeah, Pete Berg was on, was on here.

• 30:55Joe Rogan?

  Fucking man.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  He's awesome.

• 30:56Joe Rogan?

  It's like, when you see that, you're like, you believe that guy. I'm like, that guy looks like someone who would be living like that back then.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, and, and he got beat up on that. He went right from that into our show where he gets beat up again. And we had to do this show, this thing in episode four where I had my cameo where I get stitched up to the side and get killed. I got part of, be part of the stunt man.

• 31:14Joe Rogan?

  You get killed again?

• 31:15Speaker 02

  I get killed again. Yeah, yeah, I get, I get killed in True Believer too, and it's a good one. It's, it's awesome.

• 31:19Joe Rogan?

  Are people gonna see that it's you this time? You gotta give yourself a fake nose.

• 31:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It's the same, it's kinda like, it'd be a little, uh, we're kinda making a little thing about the show, like I always die somehow.

• 31:28Joe Rogan?

  Like Stephen King does?

• 31:29Speaker 02

  Something like, I don't think he dies in them though, I think they just kinda do a...

• 31:31Joe Rogan?

  He's been in a bunch of his movies. He doesn't die in his movies. It's not Who Killed Kenny?

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Exactly, so this'll be, this'll be a little different, our twist on it, our, our take on it.

• 31:38Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's fun to do that stuff, but Taylor had to run through this cobblestone, these cobblestone streets through this tunnel. Uh, and that's the one where I get stitched up and, and fall over, so I get a little stunt man pay out of that. That might, uh, it might, not quite a thousand dollars, I don't think, for taking that big fall.

• 31:53Joe Rogan?

  Bro, nobody works harder than stuntmen.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Seriously, those guys and girls take a friggin beating.

• 31:58Joe Rogan?

  They take a fucking beating. They really do. It's horrible.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  Episode five maybe, maybe six, there's a, there's a, um, uh, with, uh... This guy and the big dude and one of the girls in the show getting this fight in this apartment. I don't know if you saw that episode, but the stunt person who got thrown into this refrigerator. Oh my, it was like a tiny little pad in the refrigerator and she just gets thrown into this thing. And we tried to keep every little fights realistic, so we made a very deliberate decision at the beginning of the terminalist not to do the John Wick style. Because you just don't want to do John Wick style, but not as good. You don't want to have everything authentic and realistic and then have this choreographed fight sequence that everyone that looks visually stunning, but is not really realistic for anybody who's ever been in a fight or watched UFC or anything like that.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  So we wanted to make sure that these things are primal, visceral and just physical and brutal. And but it's a smaller girl against this huge guy, so we didn't want to have that girl power thing. And all of a sudden people roll their eyes and say, you know, one punch from this guy and she's done. So she shoots him like three times before the fight as he's rushing in on her. So, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna even this out. And still some people got upset about it online. They're like, how could she, you know, how she, you know, best this guy in a fight? He's huge and well, because she shot him three times and then in the fourth time in the middle of the fight. And she takes a beating and but the stunt, the stunt lady who did this was amazing. And she took a beating too, especially when she got thrown into that fridge.

• 33:23Joe Rogan?

  God, especially stunt women.

• 33:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:25Joe Rogan?

  That's even harder.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, that was, and it's hard to watch because you're talking to them and then they go on set and do their thing. And you're like, oh, but you feel like you know them now. So you feel like you just know this person that's now getting beat up and you're watching from that video village and you're like, oh, just cringing seeing this stuff. But it's good, it came out, came out fantastic.

• 33:40Joe Rogan?

  That's why guys like Tom Cruise are so nuts.

• 33:42Speaker 02

  So crazy.

• 33:43Joe Rogan?

  Because he does his own stunts.

• 33:43Speaker 02

  So crazy.

• 33:44Joe Rogan?

  He's worth a billion dollars and he jumps off roofs. He jumps from rooftop to rooftop and breaks his fucking ankle. Did you ever see that?

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, sure.

• 33:53Joe Rogan?

  Shatters his ankle and then keeps running.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:56Joe Rogan?

  Keeps running.

• 33:57Speaker 02

  From Fallout, I think.

• 33:58Joe Rogan?

  You can see the ankle shatter. You see the ankle hit the side.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you can see him.

• 34:03Joe Rogan?

  See it give in, you see the ankle give in. He'll go, that ankle's fucked. And then he lands on it and he just fucking hobbles off running.

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 34:10Joe Rogan?

  And saved the scene.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  Yep, I actually watched it on the plane back because there, we did a, I got my flight like last second. So I was in economy between two people and so when I do that I can't work and so on like a 10 hour flight. I decided to watch the movie, so I watched Fallout again just because of that, because I wanted to see if I could tell what was filmed after and what was filmed before. That sequence and it's hard to tell, it's really hard to tell how much they filmed after he shatters his ankle and limps off because you see him kind of limp off. Then he's running again.

• 34:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  You're like, what?

• 34:39Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 34:39Speaker 02

  So, yeah, that's amazing.

• 34:41Joe Rogan?

  He probably just got a cortisone shot, tape it up.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Tape it up.

• 34:44Joe Rogan?

  Dealt with the pain.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 34:46Joe Rogan?

  I don't get it.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:47Joe Rogan?

  He's nuts. He did that one thing where he, he, he lit a parachute on fire and then had to pull a second parachute.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  In the last one.

• 34:54Joe Rogan?

  And it turns out that they did that scene like four or five times.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Or the jumping off the cliff with the motorcycle.

• 34:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what the fuck dude.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  They did that, maybe multiple days, I don't know, but.

• 35:02Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  That's incredible.

• 35:04Joe Rogan?

  That's so insane.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:06Joe Rogan?

  What kind of insurance do they have on those movies?

• 35:07Speaker 02

  I don't think, I think he does it probably himself, he probably ensures it himself, I don't think anybody would actually insure that, I might be wrong, that's just a guess.

• 35:13Joe Rogan?

  What a nut.

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:15Joe Rogan?

  What if, maybe Scientology works, you know what I'm saying?

• 35:19Joe Rogan?

  I mean, what a fucking nut, no one's like that guy.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  No.

• 35:21Joe Rogan?

  I mean, there's no one that is that successful that takes, that takes those kind of risks.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and all the other actors say the same thing, they're like, no, that's what the stunt people do.

• 35:30Joe Rogan?

  He's one, one of one, you know, he gets in motorcycle races, like he's, he does those scenes, he does car chase scenes.

• 35:38Speaker 02

  It's pretty cool, I mean, it does add a level of authenticity and you go to it for that, so you can see Tom Cruise doing his own stunts.

• 35:44Joe Rogan?

  He learned how to fly a helicopter.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, fly the helicopter in that one, two, two, three of them ago, but that was killer too.

• 35:50Joe Rogan?

  Fucking crazy.

• 35:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, jumping out with, was it Henry Cavill and him jump out the back of the plane and fall out and they're, but yeah, he's jumping out of those planes and.

• 35:57Joe Rogan?

  Legitimately.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Good for him.

• 35:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, he's out of his fucking mind.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  Separated his finger joints or something in this one.

• 36:04Joe Rogan?

  Of course he did.

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Oh man. It's fantastic.

• 36:06Joe Rogan?

  Dude, you know how hard it is to hang? I do it every day. I do a minute and thirty seconds every day. I've decided to try this to see like what it does like for my back like because it decompresses your back and I've heard that if you just do it every day. It's like a life changer. So I'm like, okay. So I'm like ten days in now. Ten days of every day, minute thirty, I hang. At that minute and twenty, I gotta check the phone. Fuck.

• 36:32Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I was doing the same. So after I was here last time, we took a picture together and I saw it and I'm like, oh, oh, my God, I look horrible. I'm so out of shape. And it wasn't the height of my out of shapeness because we, I think we did that in June. By late August, or no, late July, that was about six years of not doing anything. We talked about saunas, you know, we talked about all this. And I'm like, I've got to do something.

• 36:52Joe Rogan?

  Just writing.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  So I've just been writing. It's been so many projects and I put myself at the bottom of my priority list and focus on family and writing and then the screenwriting and all the other projects that are out there. It's, it's, it's amazing. I feel very fortunate for that. But I did get way out of shape and the worst shape of my life and it showed in that photo that we took. I'm like, oh, look at Joey. Looks in such great shape. I'm like, I got. So like August first or something, I'm like, all right, I'm in. And I started doing the hang, of course, and then I have my, I have this outside workout area. It's like, um, kind of like Rocky IV style. And so it's right there in the mountains. And so I'm just start, I'm just all in getting after it. I'm doing the sauna. We rented a place in town that, uh, that had a, had a sauna to get our kids closer to school for a year because we're kind of remote. We're kind of up there and remote. And so we wanted him to have, our son to have the experience of riding his bike to school and all that stuff. So we rented a house, but it had an amazing sauna in it.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  So I was doing that exactly what seventeen minutes and thirty seconds, whatever it's supposed to do, whatever, whatever I heard someone on this podcast tell me I was supposed to do, whatever you told me to do, I was doing that. And I was going outside getting like ten minutes of sun here, ten minutes of sun there, doing the workouts, doing the cardio stuff, doing, doing all of it. And I got in great, it's probably one of the best shapes of my life. And I was feeling so good. I felt like I could just throw people through walls. I was feeling so great. And, uh, but I was doing everything. I was doing the, the sun. I was eating right. I was not eating the bread. So I did, I did everything. And then I got to January first and I'm out there in the snow. I dug a path out to my thing in the gym and I'm working out in my outside gym, doing the hangs, all of that in the snow. And then I was like, oh, I think I had a deadline December first, a month ago for this book. I'm like, I.

• 38:19Speaker 02

  I gotta start writing, so I all stop, all stop, and I haven't done anything since. So it's only, only writing, only screenwriting, everything. So I'm finding that balance. I need to find that, that balance. I'm not quite there yet.

• 38:29Joe Rogan?

  How many hours do you write a day?

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Well, as I get closer to the, as I pass these deadlines, I should say, it becomes all consuming. And it's especially for something like this, when I'm in 1968, I mean, I really felt like I had to transport myself back to that time to write this thing. And so that was all, as soon as I woke up, bam, I'm in and it is all day long.

• 38:46Joe Rogan?

  Until you go to sleep.

• 38:47Speaker 02

  And until I go to sleep, until super late, and then I'm up, because the kids still get up at the same time. And so I'm up, so I'm maybe an hour asleep, two hours of sleep, whatever, and then I'm up out of a cannon and it's going. So it's not, not healthy, not healthy. So I'm gonna get on a better, a better schedule here. Our son's going to a boarding school now, our daughter's in college, we have our middle child with severe special needs, so he's still at home with us, he'll be with us forever, and he's a sweet, sweet little guy. But, but that, I think, will give me a little more time to maybe find some balance with the health and the writing. So I need to do that at some point. But typically, a lot of writers aren't very, especially the older ones, from back in the day, they're not, not the healthiest of individuals.

• 39:22Joe Rogan?

  The opposite.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:23Joe Rogan?

  I mean, we've talked about it a bunch of times on this podcast, but my favorite Stephen King books were all when he was doing coke.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  He doesn't even remember writing a couple of them, right?

• 39:29Joe Rogan?

  No. If that was his friend, I'd get him to do coke again.

• 39:33Speaker 02

  Exactly. I, I tell my publisher that, I'm like, I feel like I need to, to do some of that, just to get this, to get this done. I need to take a turn here.

• 39:41Joe Rogan?

  A lot of guys use Adderall, a lot of writers use Adderall, a lot of journalists use Adderall as well. And I think also that makes them, like, a little more impulsive, their work gets a little aggressive.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, interesting.

• 39:52Joe Rogan?

  Like you kind of say, especially journalists, when they get real shitty, like, oh, he's probably on Adderall.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 39:57Joe Rogan?

  I think it contributes to the culture of journalism in the modern era, with this sort of, like, really shitty, attack journalism that's become very prevalent. I, I don't think it's a small factor. I think Adderall consumption... Has it plays a factor in that.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  It I'm sure it does. It changes something.

• 40:17Joe Rogan?

  And social media, of course.

• 40:18Speaker 02

  It changes something.

• 40:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Nicotine does it. Nicotine has been very helpful for authors.

• 40:22Joe Rogan?

  Nicotine is great.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  From what I understand.

• 40:24Joe Rogan?

  Do you use cigars or do you do like pouches?

• 40:26Speaker 02

  Don't do anything.

• 40:27Joe Rogan?

  Nothing, no nicotine?

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Nope. Coffee and and coffee, water, red wine, whiskey. But not too much.

• 40:33Joe Rogan?

  Inspiration.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, but not too much, you know, just to just to.

• 40:36Joe Rogan?

  A little bit every now and again.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, nothing too crazy.

• 40:38Joe Rogan?

  Just to say fuck it.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, just I feel like it should be doing something like that, but not not too much. I mean, having my built a library and one side of it was a bar and I never got to touch anything because at book signings, people bring me a lot of a lot of whiskey. And so I have it in my bags or I mail it from the road or whatever. And so I have this whole wall of whiskey and other stuff, too. But I never get to partake in it because I'm always writing. I'm always like, I could pour something, but no, God, this is my time. It's quiet. I'm not being interrupted. Go, go, go. And it's just it's just all on. So I haven't used any performance enhancing supplements. I need to do some like AlphaBrain or something, probably.

• 41:09Joe Rogan?

  That helps.

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Something like that.

• 41:11Joe Rogan?

  AlphaBrain is great. There's an AlphaBrain black label. That's a new one. That's a stronger version of AlphaBrain. I think we have some. I'll give you some when we leave. We also have AlphaBrain gummies. Do we have any on the table?

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 41:22Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  Nice. I probably should.

• 41:23Joe Rogan?

  I eat those things like candy. But there's a bunch of really good nootropics that you should look into. Another one is NeuroGum. We have some of that stuff. I like that because it's just it tastes good. It's gum and it gives you a little nootropic boost.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  But I understand why authors do that stuff.

• 41:40Joe Rogan?

  Creatine is another great one.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:41Joe Rogan?

  And creatine is really great for people with sleep deprivation.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 41:45Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  I was using that. So I did some supplements when I started working out again. I stopped it when I stopped working out, but I think I was doing that. Was it Thorn? Is that the one that you see on the UFC mat?

• 41:53Joe Rogan?

  Sure, yeah.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  So I was doing that. Yeah, so I was using that. Their creatine and some just just some vitamins.

• 41:57Joe Rogan?

  You want like a lot, though. Like people are taking five grams a day. You really want like 20 grams a day. And particularly when people are dealing with sleep deprivation. It also, for some reason, has like pretty great benefits, more so even for women and sleep deprivation. There's been a bunch of different studies going, but it's in terms of cognitive performance after sleep deprivation and reaction time after sleep deprivation. Both of those things fall off.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:24Joe Rogan?

  And there's a noticeable rise in improvement with creatine.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think I was taking one scoop, whatever it says on the bottle. I was doing one scoop, whatever that.

• 42:33Joe Rogan?

  I probably bet it's five grams. I do four of those scoops.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  Oh, really? Okay. Well, when I get back after this and see myself in our photo today, I will get back to. I'll use four scoops.

• 42:43Joe Rogan?

  Well, it'll definitely make your muscles a little stronger and larger, but the reason I'm doing it is not just for that. It's for the brain. It's really good for the brain.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  Well, I was getting sleep during that time, too, which is why I didn't have a book on time. One of the reasons. One, I was going back to 1968, took a lot longer than I thought for this research. And then, two, I was getting in shape at the same time.

• 43:01Joe Rogan?

  Were you listening to like 1968 music back then? And like, how are you doing it?

• 43:06Speaker 02

  I did music. I did a playlist for it, put it on Spotify. So I was doing that. I was watching the Vietnam documentaries. I was reading everything I could possibly find on Vietnam from the day. These old Army Special Forces manuals that they had before the guys would go over there. They talked about the Montney Yard tribes they were going to be working with. For those that are watching or listening, it's like Apocalypse Now, like the Montney Yards, like tribes and all that stuff. So I was doing that. And then I was reading the more modern stuff, too. I was reading things from the 70s, 80s. I got National Geographic magazines from the 60s. I think there's one from the late 50s even. So I was doing everything I possibly could to transport myself back. Listening to some history podcasts about JFK, about Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King, things that were happening here.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  About the election, Nixon's elections, everything that was happening in 1968. I was just trying to immerse myself in that world. So that when I sat down to this, I didn't have to do a huge shift. And it would be, I was already had this, I was building on this foundation, whatever foundation I already had. As then I sat down in front of the computer to write, rather than watching something here, contemporary, getting all upset about something that X is feeding me to keep me enraged. And then trying to jump back to 1968. Instead, I just transported myself back there for, it felt like, months at a time.

• 44:17Joe Rogan?

  That's probably healthier, anyway.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  I think it's much healthier.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  I think so. I think it was a much healthier way to live in general.

• 44:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, just live in the past, folks.

• 44:28Speaker 02

  That's what I try to do.

• 44:29Joe Rogan?

  Today's too fucking confusing.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  It is.

• 44:31Joe Rogan?

  Just go live in the past.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  I mean, I'd love to go back. I know I can't though, but I still try to go back through my vehicles, through movies, through things like that.

• 44:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  I did. I tried to get two modern vehicles. Had to turn them back in.

• 44:42Joe Rogan?

  I know. You were telling me you got a Grenadier.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  I did a Grenadier.

• 44:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  And I was so excited to get it. I think I was the first person in Utah to get one. At least they told me I was anyway. And I got this thing. I was so excited. And this is not a hit on Enos Grenadiers. This is a hit on me not being able to adapt to a, to the current times.

• 44:58Joe Rogan?

  It's a great vehicle.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  It was fast.

• 45:01Joe Rogan?

  They let me borrow one for a few months.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:03Joe Rogan?

  If you're looking for an off-road vehicle that's like fully outfitted from the factory, you could do no better.

• 45:10Speaker 02

  It was awesome. I mean, it, I did, of course, I put every possible thing you could put on there. So I'm like, I don't have time. I'm like, put everything on that for me. Just do the whole thing. And so they did. And it showed up. I was so excited for it. And then it started beeping at me, you know?

• 45:23Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  And it was, I'm like, ah.

• 45:24Joe Rogan?

  That's, that's my complaint. It beeps when you go one mile an hour, just a few miles an hour over the speed limit.

• 45:30Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:30Joe Rogan?

  Um, I don't like that. I don't like where the speedometer is in the da, it's in the screen.

• 45:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:36Joe Rogan?

  So there's no dashboard in front of you. There's no like speedometer, tack. It's not in front of you. You just see numbers to the right. So you have to look over to the right to see how fast you're going, which is why they justify the beep. So it makes you look over to let you know like, oh, look, you're going, see the beep? Oh, let me look. I don't want to look to the right at a screen ever if I don't have to.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:56Joe Rogan?

  I want to look at it only if I'm following directions and that's it.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  I know.

• 46:00Joe Rogan?

  I want my fucking speedometer right in front of me.

• 46:03Speaker 02

  I know. It's fast though. You hammered that thing. It was fast. I mean, you have some faster cars than I do.

• 46:07Joe Rogan?

  It's capable. And it's really capable off-road. Like if you drive that thing and it's fucking built like a tank.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  It is like a tank.

• 46:13Joe Rogan?

  If you look at like, like the, the idea was that they copied a Land Rover Defender, which they definitely did. But if you look at a Land Rover Defender, shut the doors on those things. They feel like shit. It feels like it's made of a Pepsi can. It's amazing. It's their, their aluminum fact, those are like agriculture. Vehicles. Those are not vehicles for like rugged travel. That's a G-Wagon. A G-Wagon is like a that was designed for military applications. It's a fucking stamped steel. I don't know if it's stamped steel, whatever. There's steel, heavy fucking doors. When you shut those doors like and that's how the Grand Deer is. Grand Deer is like heavy. It's like thick. It's like a very durable vehicle. I feel like a lot of Aussies love them.

• 46:56Joe Rogan?

  Because you can kind of just get right from the factory and you know, a lot of those guys like to go off road and you can get your factory uh setting in the back where it's got all the electrical and everything. So you could set up a stove. You can set up a a little refrigerator back there. It's all plugged in, ready to go.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  I love, I mean, I love all that stuff and it's uh, it's like, what do they say? It's like a Defender one ten and a G-Wagon had a baby for the Grand Deer.

• 47:19Joe Rogan?

  I would say that's what it is.

• 47:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's kind of true.

• 47:21Joe Rogan?

  Like the sides where you can put all the jerry cans and everything. It's all set up to mount the stuff on it.

• 47:27Speaker 02

  I got it all set up, man. I was so excited. And then I called them. I was like, hey, can I get rid of this click? And they said, yeah. And they walked me through the thing and I whatever. I, this is why I don't want to have an iPad. I, there's, I just want a car. I don't want to drive a computer. And so I'm in there, I turn it off and I'm like, oh, thank you so much. I'm driving. I'm like, oh, it's not doing the clicking anymore. I stop. I get out, I go in and do something. I get back in the car. Immediately it's back on again. Click, click, click, click, click, click. I'm like, stop it. I'm like, we're getting rid of this. I'm like, I told my wife, I'm like, get, let's get rid of this thing.

• 47:54Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're a old Land Cruiser guy. The problem is those cars have a charm. There's a charm to those old Land Cruisers, especially the one that you have, the sixty series. Like, you drive one of those things, man. It's like, that feels like you're involved in every part of the driving.

• 48:11Speaker 02

  It is. I love that. My time machine. I love it.

• 48:17Joe Rogan?

  And you have a V eight in it too, which is like, so you got modern power, LS V eight.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Yep, LS three's in there, so that's nice.

• 48:24Joe Rogan?

  But that's has thick doors too. Much thicker than the eighties.

• 48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I do love my eighties.

• 48:28Joe Rogan?

  Much theater, but much thicker, but thicker.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  I like the eighty series. I have two eighty series now, both stock ninety six. And I love those because they're just modern enough, but they're they need someone to do a little work on them. They make some strange noises, but they, they work. But they, uh, my, my son like pick them up in school and it and he's like, ah, dad. Cause they're still making this crazy It's almost like it's the it's going over the speed limit thing, but it's constant.

• 48:49Joe Rogan?

  Some of them are fucking hundreds of thousands of miles.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, these have over a hundred, both of them. But so I love that. And I have a 78 FJ40 that I love. So that's pretty, I love that one. And it's, it's all completely restored. So it's all original for the most part. Yeah, yeah.

• 49:04Joe Rogan?

  Fun getting on the highway with that thing, isn't it?

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, you go about 40 miles an hour, tops, tops.

• 49:08Joe Rogan?

  It's so slow.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  Yes, so slow.

• 49:10Joe Rogan?

  It's so slow.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  But it's cool for zipping around town. I love that.

• 49:13Joe Rogan?

  Did you get Icon to make you one of those?

• 49:14Speaker 02

  I know, it's on the list.

• 49:16Joe Rogan?

  Get them to make you one of them beasts that they make. Cause they, they make them with the giant V8s in them.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, they do some serious work.

• 49:22Joe Rogan?

  That's fun.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  So I'm thinking the Land Cruiser guy, and I tested out the Eno's, didn't work out for me, but that's not to say that they won't work out for someone else. They're awesome vehicles. And if you're a modern type person, like get one for sure.

• 49:32Joe Rogan?

  If you're into that style of like Defender looking car, but you don't want all the bullshit that comes with owning a Defender. Either get a refurbished one, like East Coast Defenders does a great job. They'll put a big engine in it and do it all right.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's a bunch of them now that do that.

• 49:46Joe Rogan?

  The Grenadier is a great solution. I think they're gonna come out with a new one that has a more horsepower and they'll probably improve some things. I would like them, just give me a fucking dashboard.

• 49:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:56Joe Rogan?

  Is that so hard?

• 49:57Speaker 02

  I mean, they're doing everything else old school.

• 49:58Joe Rogan?

  You have all these buttons and everything. It's all fucking, all old school looking like a jet fighter pilot. With all the locking differential.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  I know.

• 50:06Joe Rogan?

  Give me a fucking speedometer, just a regular speedometer and a tack. Put it right in front of me. Thank you.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  And also make the lights so that the auxiliary lights will turn on when it's not in the off-road mode. If, I don't know if you've tried that, but they're the auxiliary lights, they, except for the light bar on the top, but the other ones in the front, like you have to be in off-road mode for some legal reason. So you have to, I mean, sure, someone can bypass it somehow, but when I come up to our house, there's no, there's no lights and it's a long drive up there into the mountains. And I just want to hit the switch and have just daylight in front of me. And that was not possible with that.

• 50:34Joe Rogan?

  I got my Land Cruiser setup where if I was in a dark field, you would think a UFO landed.

• 50:38Speaker 02

  Nice. And yours is a hundred series, right?

• 50:40Joe Rogan?

  No, I have an 80.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Here's the 80, that's okay.

• 50:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Icon built me that one. It was TLC at the time. But they, they put bars all around it.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  I think sick.

• 50:48Joe Rogan?

  And bars in the back. So like you could park and like light up the perimeter.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  That's what I want. I want daylight.

• 50:53Joe Rogan?

  It's awesome. And then you put a tent on the roof and you're out there in nature.

• 50:57Speaker 02

  I love it. I love it. I did drive a, I drove a G-Wagon yesterday. So we landed, went right to Staccato. And so they had a portion of G-Wagon right there. And I was like, oh, man, I was, I'm, I'm, I think my wife's telling me I need to get something more modern. That's gonna be reliable. We're not gonna just break down all the time. And, and so I'm like, they said, well, drive it, drive this thing. And so I got in it. It was like a 2016. So it was before some changes, I guess, were made. And I think it was nice.

• 51:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. So 2016 would have two live axles. I think they got independent front suspension later.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:26Joe Rogan?

  I think that was like the 2022 or something like that. They started doing that, but.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  But I still can't do it. It's too, too LA, too Kardashian.

• 51:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's very Kardashian. But the reality of it is, it's a, it's a military vehicle. The thing about G-Wagons, though, is people do take them and then they build them out for off-road.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:44Joe Rogan?

  They don't do it with like the AMG turbo fucking thing. But the regular one is a V8 anyway. It's got plenty of power.

• 51:51Speaker 02

  I like the old ones.

• 51:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. But you can, you can get one of those old ones and people have done amazing builds. Where they put like large tires on them. They raise it up a little bit and they put like strong steel bumpers and like rock sliders on the side. And, you know, it's a beast of a truck.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  I'll probably need something new at some point, something newer.

• 52:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because the platform is amazing. I mean, the platform is really designed for military application.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, the new, the new Land Cruisers, I'm not quite, quite there yet. I like the old stuff, you know, like the newer ones. I mean, they're, they're probably great.

• 52:24Joe Rogan?

  The new, new one is like really more modest.

• 52:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. They dropped the price on them.

• 52:29Joe Rogan?

  It's not like what they were getting to, which is basically like.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Trying to compete with Range Rover.

• 52:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're also fucking themselves because they have Lexus.

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 52:37Joe Rogan?

  And Lexus is like the best version of that.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Right. Those, is it the 550? What's the new one that they have?

• 52:42Joe Rogan?

  I think the new one's a 600, I think it's called. Well, they have the smaller one, which is more like Land Cruiser size, like 80 series size. And they have the larger one.

• 52:51Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 52:52Joe Rogan?

  I, I had three of the larger ones, the 570s. I had three of those.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, those are sweet, right?

• 52:57Joe Rogan?

  They never break. They were like my favorite family car to drive around in. It's awesome four-wheel drive. They're great in snow and anything else. And they fucking always work. Can always work.

• 53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, hard to beat that.

• 53:08Joe Rogan?

  Toyota. This episode is brought to you by the mosquito bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat where the stakes were life and death. Directed by Peter Berg, the guy behind Friday Night Lights and starring Nicholas Galitzine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis. The Mosquito Bowl, now playing in theaters. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact.

• 53:53Joe Rogan?

  Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, the farmer's dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The farmer's dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients.

• 54:35Joe Rogan?

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• 55:08Speaker 02

  I know.

• 55:08Joe Rogan?

  They're so reliable.

• 55:10Speaker 02

  I know. The guys got over to Africa to start filming this thing in, uh, we got there in February or March. Anyway, we went over there and, uh, the, the advance crew went over first to get everything set up, and then Chris and I came over a little bit later and when everything was all set up, but the guys were texting back after they were doing all the, um, uh, the, the advance work for the different places we're gonna go shoot, and they're like, Now we understand your obsession with the Land Cruiser.

• 55:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  They're all driving Land Cruisers in Africa.

• 55:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Once you get over to any rough place and you realize like, oh, you want a car that 100% is gonna work for you. There's a reason why they became so popular. It's not, it's not a mystery.

• 55:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Same thing. It's like the Seiko. Is that a Seiko?

• 55:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Nice. It's like they said, that's the Toyota of watches. Nice.

• 55:49Joe Rogan?

  That's the Willard. That's the one that Captain Willard wore in Apocalypse Now.

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Absolutely, which I think came out.

• 55:53Joe Rogan?

  I have an original.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  I do too.

• 55:55Joe Rogan?

  I have an original. I have a 1971, I think it is. Seventy or seventy-one.

• 55:59Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah, I collected all the, uh, the Sog Seikos, cause this is Mac V Sog. So I collected all those. I think there's four of them that, uh, that they've, uh, they've seen pictures of Mac V Sog guys wearing going into Laos, Cambodia, and North Vietnam, which is what the book is, uh, is focused on. So not only did I try to transport myself back by listening to all these things, but I had the watch right there. Like this is 1968 Rolex.

• 56:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, nice.

• 56:20Speaker 02

  So I got that thing, the Submariner. So I surrounded myself with things that are like totems from the book. So this is what, uh, Tom Reese and I have a cool way that he wins this.

• 56:28Joe Rogan?

  How'd you get it at 68? Where'd you find that? Did you get it online?

• 56:31Speaker 02

  A buddy of mine who's a Rolex dealer out in, uh, in PA found it for me.

• 56:35Joe Rogan?

  Ah, wow. That's fucking cool.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I like the, I like the older stuff now I'm finding.

• 56:40Joe Rogan?

  Crazy. It looks exactly the same.

• 56:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty much. I mean, there's a little bit of the, uh, the crystals different and stuff like that, but the, uh, the loom's different, that sort of thing.

• 56:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, they used to be a, a utility watch. It used to be, that used to be a tool watch, which is crazy because you think of them today as being luxury. But the reason why they were built so well was just for, you know, use them diving.

• 57:00Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 57:01Joe Rogan?

  They were actually a watch that people would dive with.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Exactly. And also you wear something like this or like that, then people like, watch people know, they'll see it and be like, oh, okay. It's not like some guy that went out and bought an expensive watch. They're like, okay, if someone put a lot of thought into this, like you wearing the Willard and me having those Mac V Sogs and this one from 1968, um, it's, uh, it, it tells you, put a little more thought into this sort of thing than like just what's an expensive watch or something.

• 57:21Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Something along those lines. But, uh, but I, yeah, I mean, this tells a story.

• 57:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's pretty dope.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  And, uh, it's pretty thin too. Yeah, it's a little thinner than I, than I thought when it came. And the band's a little different. It kinda. Make some, make some noise there, but I, I love this. And so it's these in the tutors that guys were wearing back in Vietnam, the SEALs in particular. They had the tutor submariner.

• 57:39Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  So I got one of those recently. I've been wanting to get one for years because when I got to the SEAL teams, they were, this is a rumor. So I never saw it with my own eyes. But, uh, so it's secondhand information is that they're in supply. They were destroying the tutors with hammers. And I can't then, because now we're getting issued Secos. And so they'd issued these to the guys that actually they jumped in to get the Apollo spacecraft. Uh, SEALs jumped in after those things, UDT SEALs, uh, to get those guys out of the water. And, uh, and, uh, these people in supply, I think in the, the nineties were destroying the tutors for some reason, probably because they were told to. Uh, so guys wouldn't get them and sell them or something like that. I don't know. But, uh, but I did track one down recently through the, through, uh, watches of espionage and, uh,

• 58:18Joe Rogan?

  Wow, wow.

• 58:19Speaker 02

  He found me a new tutor and then, or an old tutor, but I got that. And then we did a little documentary with some old guys from, uh, the seventies from in the sixties that were SEALs in Vietnam. And they were pulled out of Vietnam. They were in Vietnam one day and then the next day they were off the, in the Pacific on an aircraft carrier, waiting to recover the, uh, the Apollo astronauts.

• 58:35Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 58:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. Pretty cool. We did a documentary on it for, for tutor and, uh, it was, it was pretty cool to talk to those guys. I mean, just, just amazing. Cause now they're, they're taking lives in Vietnam and then they're supposed to, now they're just thrown into this, this, on these helicopters to jump into the ocean to save lives. It's kind of a cool juxtaposition.

• 58:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, for sure. It is interesting that their, their equipment became luxury.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:55Joe Rogan?

  Weird.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Well, you can go back. I love these old ads, Rolex ads from, it must be the sixties, I think sixty, seventies, eighties. I mean, there's some from the early eighties where they have a guy like with a rhino. And it's like the editor of guns and ammo magazine with his dead rhino wears a Rolex. And they had at least, yeah, they had like two of those types of ads back then. I don't like to acknowledge that today. I don't think the Rolex people.

• 59:14Joe Rogan?

  Don't kill rhinos.

• 59:15Speaker 02

  But, uh, but they had, but that was like in the early eighties. That's what they were, they were still marketing towards that. So, yeah, really cool.

• 59:21Joe Rogan?

  They were still rugged.

• 59:22Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 59:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, think about, didn't James Bond always have, look at this.

• 59:25Speaker 02

  There we go. Here's one.

• 59:25Joe Rogan?

  If you're looking for lost empires here tomorrow, you'd wear a Rolex.

• 59:29Speaker 02

  There's one.

• 59:30Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  There's one.

• 59:31Joe Rogan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 59:31Speaker 02

  But you gotta find the one with the rhino.

• 59:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, they're, they're so fucking dependable.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. Frederick Forsyth, the author actually had one. They used to do, they used to do, had a relationship with him in the seventies and eighties. And they're like, here's Frederick Forsyth who wrote Day of the Jackal, wearing his jackal coat, uh, in front of this Jaguar. And, uh, it's just, you'd never see that today. But there it is. Yeah, there you go.

• 59:51Joe Rogan?

  If taming oil wellfires were your job, you'd wear a Rolex. Isn't that crazy? What?

• 59:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, let's see if we can find the, uh, find the hunting one, I mean Rolex hunting or something. Um, but they're just.

• 1:00:02Joe Rogan?

  Look at that racing here, like it's for anybody that's doing anything difficult.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:07Joe Rogan?

  It's kinda crazy.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  And now it's, now it's tennis and it's golf.

• 1:00:10Joe Rogan?

  Well, now it's just like, you know, looking fancy at a restaurant or whatever you're doing.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  There we go, there's Connery right there, the thunderball action, yeah, yeah. Love it, yeah. Fleming had one, they, he doesn't say which specific model it is in the books. Um, of course Omega sponsored the, the movie, starting with Bronson, I think, but, uh, but in the books, it's a Rolex. He doesn't say what specific model, but he wore, I think Fleming wore an Explorer, I think.

• 1:00:34Joe Rogan?

  There it is.

• 1:00:35Speaker 02

  Uh, there you go.

• 1:00:36Joe Rogan?

  If you hunted big game over the world, Cape Buffalo.

• 1:00:38Speaker 02

  There's Cape Buffalo right there.

• 1:00:39Joe Rogan?

  Rolex, wow.

• 1:00:40Speaker 02

  Pretty cool.

• 1:00:41Joe Rogan?

  Weird.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they don't do that today.

• 1:00:44Joe Rogan?

  Just weird that that became, it went from being like this manly, super durable thing through, like, when did people really start getting into watches and collecting them? And when did it become like a fetish?

• 1:00:55Speaker 02

  Must be the eighties.

• 1:00:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 1:00:56Speaker 02

  Must be the eighties, I would guess. I mean, I think it's always been a thing, cause you can go back and find like amazing, the Paddock Phillips and stuff like that. And go back, find the Omegas, the old Rolexes, and it's a thing, so, uh.

• 1:01:05Joe Rogan?

  But now it's kinda nuts.

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, now it's gotten a little, little crazy, which is why I like the vintage stuff, cause it fits a little more, just like the cars, just like, it's my time machine.

• 1:01:12Joe Rogan?

  Now when people have like those Richard Millet watches and you hear they're half a million dollars, like, what are you talking about?

• 1:01:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:19Joe Rogan?

  Why are you buying that?

• 1:01:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Joe Rogan?

  Like, what's going on here that I'm missing?

• 1:01:22Speaker 02

  That's an amazing story, like, I think, it's not like that has a huge history to it, it's fairly recent for those watches.

• 1:01:27Joe Rogan?

  Do you know what the rumor is?

• 1:01:29Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:01:29Joe Rogan?

  The rumor is that one of the first watches that he was supposed to sell was supposed to be fifteen thousand dollars, but someone put an extra zero on it.

• 1:01:35Speaker 02

  No way, really?

• 1:01:36Joe Rogan?

  This is what someone told me.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Hey, let's go with it, it's a good story.

• 1:01:39Joe Rogan?

  It might not be true, and then people bought it, it's like, hey, hey, hey. Let's try three hundred.

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Sometimes that's how it works.

• 1:01:45Joe Rogan?

  I mean, people love the watches, it's a beautiful, if you're into that style of watch, I like. Simple.

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Joe Rogan?

  That's what I like. I like, this is why I like the Seiko. Nobody gives a shit about it. It's not impressing anybody.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  Well, it is if you know.

• 1:01:57Joe Rogan?

  If you know. But it's like, it's a really well-made watch. It'll never fuck up. It's got, I think it's got a 52-hour time reserve.

• 1:02:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I love that stuff. We're very intentional with all, all the gear in the TV shows.

• 1:02:07Joe Rogan?

  I know you are, yeah. And your books as well.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the books as well. So it tells a story. You know, you see somebody with that, that tells something, that tells me something about you. Uh, you see something with the, the Richard Mill, whatever you say.

• 1:02:17Joe Rogan?

  Richard Mill, I think it is. It probably is Richard Mill, but it's like, they ain't gonna sell.

• 1:02:21Speaker 02

  When you add another zero, then, then it goes to, like Joe Dirtay, you know?

• 1:02:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Speaker 02

  Exactly. So it, it changes things a little bit. So, uh, but that's, but it tells me a story, just like, uh, like the characters in the books. But the watches in particular are important. Um, one, because it's important to, to me as a watch guy my whole life. For some reason, I just have this connection with, with time and the value of time. And so I've always been a watch guy my whole, my whole life. And, uh, so putting these watches on characters that tell you something about that character, uh, like in Dark Wolf, they have to get rid of their G-Shocks and go get something that would make look a little more European and, uh, for when they transition over from being these SEAL guys to being these CIA operatives. And, uh, drop, get rid of the gators. We say, get rid of the gators, get some sunglasses, get some expensive watches, that sort of thing. But I still wanted something that had a connection to the SEAL teams. So, uh, picked a Tudor for, uh, for Taylor Kitsch's character.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  And, uh, I got that one. I got to keep that one. So that was, that was pretty cool. Um, and then put a pan array on, um, on Rafe Hastings, Tom Hopper's character, uh, to differentiate him a bit from, uh, from, um, Ben Edwards, the Taylor Kitsch character. But, and also Tom's a big dude, so you need a big watch on that guy.

• 1:03:24Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  He's huge. He is huge. Oh my gosh. I think all the, all the, like my wife and her friends were so excited about Taylor being in the show because the Texas Forever, you know, and they were all coming up during that timeframe where he's in front of that lights and all that stuff. And then, uh, then Tom Hopper gets out of the pool without a shirt on. They're like, oh, Tom Hopper. Oh my God. It is. And so I told Tom that probably if we do Savage Son as a, as a movie, he's probably not gonna have his shirt on much in there. So. Gotta expand the audience.

• 1:03:50Joe Rogan?

  Sorry dude.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Gotta expand the audience.

• 1:03:51Joe Rogan?

  We gotta sell streamers.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. But he's such a good dude.

• 1:03:54Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 1:03:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, all those guys are great.

• 1:03:56Joe Rogan?

  It's awesome. What is it like, like having this thing that you sat down by yourself, this world that you created? And now you're, you're not just selling books, but you're filming the visual representation of your world. It's gotta be kinda surreal.

• 1:04:10Speaker 02

  It is surreal. Every time I walk onto set, I feel that way. I feel just grateful for the most part. I just feel so much gratitude um, towards everyone involved. And of course, the people who made it happen, most specifically Chris, because if Chris didn't wanna do it, didn't want to option it, it probably wouldn't happen. Um, it wouldn't have happened. We wouldn't be on this journey together. And he's so invested in it. Um, and you mentioned some other shows earlier, and there's just, there's a difference between an actor who gets paid to do something, does it, and moves on to the next project. And somebody like Chris, who is so invested in this. And I think the other actors see that. And Taylor's like this by nature. Like, American Primeval, any role Taylor takes on, he is just so invested in it. It's not just a paycheck. Like, it is, it's gonna now become part of his experience.

• 1:04:47Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Speaker 02

  And, uh, and he really looks at it through, through that kind of a lens. So to have guys like that involved, that are so personally connected to the material, and also to the community, like the veteran community writ large, um, it means something to them. And so they put so much into it. So when I walk on set, uh, it is surreal. And to know that everybody is, and people come up to me all the time on set and thank me for creating this universe, allowing them to be there. Um, but not just that they can be there working on a set, it's that we have created mostly through Chris, Antoine Fuqua, David DeGilio, all these guys at the top. David DeGilio is the showrunner. And to build this family. And people come up to me all the time and they say that they've been involved in hundreds of Hollywood productions, and they've never felt this way on a set before.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  And that's because you're filming these things for seven, eight months. And that doesn't count all the, all the work that goes into the scripts ahead of time, and all the post-production. So just being on set. And so during that time, people are gonna, uh, get married, get divorced, uh, lose loved ones. Um, all, life is gonna happen. And David DeGilio in particular is the showrunner. Uh, he makes sure that everyone is taken care of. And, uh, we're also bringing people along with us. So if they're in a department, uh, this, this season, they're gonna move their way up in that department next season. So it's, uh, they really Taken care of and it's all genuine and I think that helps bring everybody bring their A game. And everyone is so happy to be there on these sets. It's really cool and people tell me how different they want to make sure that I know that it's not like this on every Hollywood production.

• 1:06:10Joe Rogan?

  That's cool. That's gotta feel great.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  That's cool. It is. And I mean.

• 1:06:14Joe Rogan?

  Well, it all trickles down from the top.

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, comes out, comes out from the top for sure. And even at the rap party, people, these guys hang out after, like all the actors hang out afterward. The cast, the crew, everybody's hanging out after hours. They're not just turning into ghosts. They're hanging out, having a great time. Rap party like, I've heard that a lot of the like number one on the call sheets. Maybe they'll make a quick appearance and leave or something like that. I mean, Chris is there. He's in it, having a great time. Everyone's thanking everybody and such a, such a great guy.

• 1:06:43Joe Rogan?

  He's a very normal guy. For a movie star, he's oddly normal.

• 1:06:47Speaker 02

  Yep. Yeah, he's a normal guy, just like, I mean, just like us. We spent time with him, you know, outside of anything.

• 1:06:52Joe Rogan?

  Well, I hung out with him in hunting camp.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:54Joe Rogan?

  We all come together. So it was like, he just hangs out with everybody. He was like so cool.

• 1:06:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:58Joe Rogan?

  So normal.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Joe Rogan?

  You know, for a movie star, just be chilling.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Such a great guy. We, we, we, like, speaking of Tom Cruise and all the stunts, so the last thing that we filmed in Morocco was underwater sequences. So it was, was not filmed linear, in a linear style. So from, it's from the first episode. So it's Chris falling off the boat and being underwater. And he's in this pool underwater, not a stunt double. We had some stunt double do some falls and stuff like that. Chris Romrell, who's awesome, looks like Chris, takes some crazy beatings. He's amazing. And he's a huge dude. He can just stand right here and do a backflip. Like, it's insane. The guy's a huge dude. It's awesome. And such a nice guy too. But Chris underwater, like, and you can have this underwater like communication system. And they're like, all right, ready, three, two, one, action. And he takes a thing from a regulator and then it goes away and then we're filming.

• 1:07:44Speaker 02

  And he was under there for like three plus minutes, holding his breath, doing this stuff. Yeah. And for anyone who's tried to hold their breath for three minutes, that's.

• 1:07:51Joe Rogan?

  Holding your breath for three minutes, just sitting still is hard.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  But underwater.

• 1:07:55Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 1:07:56Speaker 02

  And we were watching this thing. We're like, uh, is he okay? And now he's just showing off. At certain point, we're like, cut. And he stays down there like, what? Like, he's just, he's just showing off at this point.

• 1:08:05Joe Rogan?

  Did he prep for that?

• 1:08:06Speaker 02

  I think he's just a bit from wrestling and from all this other stuff, breath control stuff. He's such. An athlete that I think was just kind of natural. I don't think he was prepping for it. I think he just did it. And but it looks so good. It looks crazy. All the stuff that he gave us down there is amazing. And that's how we finished up the show is to finish that all the casting crew around at night, all the lights, underwater stuff, Chris getting yanked out of the water. And then that was the end. And we went right to the party from there. So

• 1:08:28Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And we got to talk about the future of the show. We stayed up pretty late. And and me and Chris and the showrunner and Jared Shaw, who you met when we were hunting that time, who gave Chris the book, former SEAL buddy of mine. And so we all had to talk about the future of the show. So hopefully, it's Savage Son next. And that's people's favorite, I think, of the books, that and Red Sky Morning, the last one. And mine is this one. Everyone has been my favorite thus far. But

• 1:08:52Joe Rogan?

  This Vietnam book, your favorite book you've written?

• 1:08:54Speaker 02

  Yep, hands down. One, because how much I put into it. And one, I want to get better with everything that I every book, I think it's gotten better as I go along. And if I can say that truthfully to myself, then I feel like I'm doing doing my job and doing my service to the story, which in turn serves the reader, people who are trusting me with this time that they're never going to get back.

• 1:09:12Joe Rogan?

  It's like every other skill, right? The more time you invest in it, and the more you hone it, and the more

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  It should be getting better.

• 1:09:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it has to.

• 1:09:20Speaker 02

  It should be getting better.

• 1:09:20Joe Rogan?

  It has to. You have to get better. Because you can tell when people start phoning it in.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  You can tell.

• 1:09:26Joe Rogan?

  You know, they're not enthusiastic anymore. And

• 1:09:28Speaker 02

  Yep. And this one, I mean, like, there's a lot of pressure from publishers also to get things in on time. Because now I sell like, maybe at the beginning, it didn't matter. But at this stage, it matters because of the number of books that are being sold. So they need to it's a business. And so they need to make their their numbers. And so as a creative person, they are putting a lot of pressure to to get it done. Just get it done. And and I have to fend it off. I have to like, hey, whatever pressure is put on me from the outside, I've got to focus on this story. And it's going to be done when it's done, because it has to be the best that it can possibly be. And but that's a lot of that's a lot of pressure coming in from the outside. And you have to fend it off. But I can see, you know, how if you're I can see it being very easy to just say, OK, I got 100,000 words. I got to wrap this thing up.

• 1:10:07Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:10:07Speaker 02

  And I'll never I'll never do that. My readers mean too much to me. The story means too much to me. This profession means too much for me to ever do something like that.

• 1:10:14Joe Rogan?

  How many? What is the percentage of audiobooks versus hard copy?

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  A lot more audio.

• 1:10:20Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  A lot more.

• 1:10:20Joe Rogan?

  Like, how much more?

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  I don't know, because I don't look at the numbers. I'm not a business guy. I'm more of an entrepreneurial type of mind. Um, so just knowing that Simon and Schuster is incredibly happy across the board. So these, the hardback cell.

• 1:10:30Joe Rogan?

  But they tell you.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  They, they do have numbers, yeah, and they share them, and I just see numbers, and, but I couldn't tell you exactly.

• 1:10:34Joe Rogan?

  But it's a lot more.

• 1:10:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a lot.

• 1:10:35Joe Rogan?

  A lot more interesting.

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  And I think that's Ray Porter. I mean, incredible.

• 1:10:39Joe Rogan?

  He's really good.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  Fantastic. Such a good human being, too. We, we use his voice in, uh, in Dark World for those, those listening. They'll, uh, they'll be able to recognize his voice in there.

• 1:10:47Joe Rogan?

  What's an odd skill, to be able to do all those different voices and accents? And then not have it jarring that a man is playing a woman?

• 1:10:54Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:10:55Joe Rogan?

  You know, which is weird, because he plays, he has got to play a woman's voice.

• 1:10:58Speaker 02

  That's a tough one for any guy.

• 1:10:59Joe Rogan?

  Fucking weird. You know, it's weird, because you have to kind of like, there's a suspension of disbelief.

• 1:11:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:04Joe Rogan?

  You know, in the, in the real world, you're like, hey, fuck off, that's not a chick.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:07Joe Rogan?

  You know, you got a phone call from a lady.

• 1:11:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:11:09Joe Rogan?

  So where are we gonna meet?

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, wait a second.

• 1:11:11Joe Rogan?

  Let's meet at the barber shop. Like, what?

• 1:11:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, call that a clue.

• 1:11:14Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck's going on?

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, call that, call that a clue.

• 1:11:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  If I listen to it, unless you're looking for it, I guess.

• 1:11:19Joe Rogan?

  His girl voice is oddly believable.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I can only anybody else who can do it, do it better. That's a, that's a tough one. That's a tough position to put a person in.

• 1:11:26Joe Rogan?

  And the accent, it's like Rafe's accent.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. I gave him a tough one in this one, too. I have a guy who's actually based on a real person. Um, in the book, he lives in real life. He died in, I think, nineteen sixty-five. But it was a, uh, a Finnish officer who, uh, got the, uh, whatever the Finnish, uh, cross is, it's in the book. I forget exactly what it is. But then fought for the Germans and got like the German Mannheim Cross or something. And then after World War Two, they tried to grab a bunch of people who had experience in essentially Eastern Europe to bring over to our military so that we would have experience if we went to a war with the Soviets. And so they brought all these guys in, into the military. And so then he gets a Bronze Star in the United States Military Army Special Forces. His helicopter went down, I think it was nineteen sixty-five, but he was part of MACV SOG.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  So I fictionalize his character in here. So I had to give those three, so I have to have, so Finnish, German, and English kind of a morph. And Ray Porter has to do that. And so he has to read that and, uh, and come up with something like that. And he, he pulls it off. It's incredible.

• 1:12:24Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  I was just texting him before I came in here, actually. He's, uh, filming a, a play up in, in Oregon, waiting for Godot, I think, right now. So I'd love to see him on stage and see, uh, just see him not just doing the voice, but acting.

• 1:12:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I don't, I've never seen him in anything, I don't think.

• 1:12:36Speaker 02

  He's Darkseid, he's Darkseid in that Justice League. So, but that's a bunch of, you can't really, you know.

• 1:12:41Joe Rogan?

  I haven't seen that.

• 1:12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so he's in, he's in that, so he's in, he was in Almost Famous, a bunch of sitcoms in the 90s. And just, but just an awesome dude, but, but yeah, audiobooks, and I think it's because of podcasts. I think people listen to a podcast and it is a very natural way to then get whatever you're talking about on the podcast through the same medium, so over to audiobook, it's just a very natural transition to listen to the audiobook. And a lot of people are doing both, thank goodness, so they're getting the hardcover and then they're listening on the car on the way home and then they get inside and they're reading a little bit before bed, get up to go to work in the morning, pick up again where they left off reading, so a lot of people are doing both.

• 1:13:15Joe Rogan?

  Well, you know, Audible, the way it works with Tinder, Tin, Kindle rather, there's, uh, there's an app where it'll pick up where you are. What is it exactly? What is it? Whisper? Whisper sing, something like that? So it picks up exactly where you left off reading and it'll pick up with the audiobook.

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  On a Kindle though.

• 1:13:39Joe Rogan?

  And then the audiobook will know that you, uh, you're, you're reading at night.

• 1:13:44Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:13:44Joe Rogan?

  And so pick up where you left off the next day.

• 1:13:46Speaker 02

  Interesting, but that's, I'd be on a Kindle.

• 1:13:48Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  I can't do the Kindle, I, I feel that I do so much work on a screen that I don't want to have something I read for enjoyment to be the same thing. So I want it to be, I'm in a physical book to go through, I just, I'm just that kind of guy.

• 1:13:58Joe Rogan?

  The dope thing about a Kindle though is you can get 80 books on it, or probably 80,000.

• 1:14:02Speaker 02

  Instead of my luggage.

• 1:14:03Joe Rogan?

  I don't even know how many you can get on them, honestly, but, and then also the white paper screen where it really does look like paper. Pretty fucking incredible.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, still for me, once again, like the watches, like the cars, I have a thing, it's a theme.

• 1:14:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, listen, my wife's the same way, she won't, she only reads book books. She likes to feel the books.

• 1:14:18Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 1:14:19Joe Rogan?

  A lot of people are like, it's like, there's a, it's a thing that you have in your hands and you're turning the pages, it's like the tactile feeling and you. You know when you're halfway into the book, like, oh, my God, things are getting crazy. I'm halfway in here. This is not, how's he gonna wrap this up?

• 1:14:32Speaker 02

  You can't see it, rather than I'm at 37%.

• 1:14:34Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  It's just a different.

• 1:14:35Joe Rogan?

  It doesn't mean anything.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Just a different type of a, type of a deal. But I picked up Charlie Sheen's book in the airport on the way here.

• 1:14:40Joe Rogan?

  Oh, did you?

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  So I'm reading it about halfway through because he's coming on my, on the podcast and I want to talk to him and ask him about, you know, apocalypse. I'm gonna keep it to Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Navy SEALs, kind of like, keep it in, in that kind of thing. But reading that book, oh, my gosh, it's, it's amazing. But I had to buy it. I couldn't just get it on the, I already had the PDF. They sent it to me, but I wanted to buy the book. I wanted to physically have it and make my notes in there and all that. So, um, so I'm, so I'm doing that. But listening to him on this.

• 1:15:03Joe Rogan?

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• 1:15:45Joe Rogan?

  per session with insurance. Don't have insurance or live outside of the United States? You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit betterhelp.com to explore your payment options. That's better, H E L P dot com. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stalkers, or maybe something more unique, like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver. Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your

• 1:16:28Joe Rogan?

  search because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And because ZipRecruiter helps sort. Through thousands of resumes and applications, showing you the most qualified and interesting ones first. There's even an option for candidates to explain why they want the job. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  On your podcast was so interesting.

• 1:17:08Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:08Speaker 02

  What a guy.

• 1:17:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. This is what I told people, like, you can't be normal if you're on the set of Apocalypse Now when you're 10 years old. And then 10 years later, you're in Platoon.

• 1:17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:22Joe Rogan?

  You're the lead.

• 1:17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:23Joe Rogan?

  In Platoon 10 years later, like, how?

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:26Joe Rogan?

  How do you expect that guy to be normal?

• 1:17:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:27Joe Rogan?

  No one can handle that. It's not handleable.

• 1:17:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, that level of stardom is, especially in the 80s, before phones and everything else when they got after it.

• 1:17:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, and the drugs.

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:38Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he was involved in so much drugs.

• 1:17:41Speaker 02

  From early on.

• 1:17:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and back then you could do drugs. Like, you didn't die.

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  He didn't die with an alfentanyl ace.

• 1:17:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, actually, one of the ladies he talked about in the documentary, that gave him a blowjob while he was smoking crack for the first time.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  I saw that.

• 1:17:53Joe Rogan?

  She died, an overdose, but you gotta try hard. It's not like today, you gotta accidentally do a snort of coke and then it's fentanyl ace and you're dead.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:18:02Joe Rogan?

  And that's 100,000 people in America every year. It's crazy.

• 1:18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Joe Rogan?

  But what he was doing was just going hog wild.

• 1:18:10Speaker 02

  That he's alive.

• 1:18:11Joe Rogan?

  And he's alive.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:13Joe Rogan?

  He looks good.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  He looks, yeah, he looks great.

• 1:18:15Joe Rogan?

  Dude, he looks a lot better than he's looked in the past.

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:18Joe Rogan?

  Like, when he came in here, I'm like, dude, you look healthy.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:20Joe Rogan?

  I think he said he'd almost been sober for eight years, been sober for seven plus years. It's coming on eight years. I think he said December. I forget. But it was very impressive and he's like really nice guy.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:32Joe Rogan?

  You know?

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  No, it seems like it. He uh, he, he, he was a fan of the books beforehand, so he likes all this stuff. Likes Dark Wolf, likes Terminalist, all that stuff, so.

• 1:18:39Joe Rogan?

  That's cool.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that'll be fun to, fun to talk to him. And also, I went to see Navy SEALs the, the day before it came out. There was a showing at like midnight on Thursday or something like that, before it came out on Friday, back when I was in, in high school. And I knew I was gonna be a SEAL, so I was so excited. I'm like, they cast Charlie Sheen, the guy from Platoon in this? I'm like, ah, perfect casting. And uh, and so I went and saw it then, so it'll be fun to talk to him about that stuff. And I do remember, I did meet him at a, is it Red Sox game? Is that the one that they wa- is that his team? I think so. But him and his dad were in a box next to us, so I was still in the SEAL teams. And I was with some of the guys that were on the Bin Laden raid, and we were in one of the owner's boxes. And uh, and Charlie Sheen was next to us with his dad. And uh, somehow they got to talking or whatever, and so we went over there, he came over to us, I can't remember, with his dad. And uh, said hi, and he was, he was fantastic. His dad was such a gentleman. That stands out to me.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  But Charlie Sheen was awesome, so personable, he was great, but his dad was so nice. And uh, he's like an old school type gentleman, is what stood out about Martin Sheen. And then what also stands out is then we then left there at the end of the game, and there was a line of girls down. Yeah, I'll tell him this when I, I see if he remembers, he might not remember, but it's because it probably happened almost every day for him, just a line of girls down the hallway outside of the owner's box.

• 1:19:45Joe Rogan?

  Trying to meet him?

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. They weren't there for me.

• 1:19:48Joe Rogan?

  Well, what are you gonna do?

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, but they were there for Charlie.

• 1:19:50Joe Rogan?

  Poor Charlie.

• 1:19:51Speaker 02

  And uh, that was pretty cool.

• 1:19:53Joe Rogan?

  Must be rough.

• 1:19:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, he had a, what a, what a crazy life. And then you guys came back in and had to deal with the, the Charlie Kirk assassination. And I thought you guys handled that in such a, such a thoughtful way, real time. Uh, that's a tough position for both you guys to be in.

• 1:20:07Joe Rogan?

  I hadn't seen it yet, you know, I just heard, and then I really didn't wanna see it. I said I wasn't gonna see it, but then someone, someone texted it to me, and I just couldn't help myself. I clicked on it, I'm like, oh.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  I know. So sad. I was signing the, those books. I was signing the, the, the books right there that day with my chief of staff and, and she was passing me the books and I'm signing them. We're checking off the, the names for these pub boxes. And all of a sudden her phone goes off and I heard she screams. And I was like, whoa, what happened? And her husband is in the security field. Um, and she said Charlie Kirk's been shot in Utah. So I of course go to X and then see it. And then I didn't get to my kids in time because my daughter and our youngest son are both follow him, think, feel like they know him essentially. And I didn't get to them in time before they, they saw it. So our, our youngest, I was most concerned about.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Uh, seeing that, being away from home at boarding school. And anyway, called the school, one of the guys, there's like a trusted agent. He's like a guy's guy like us and went over and tracked him down and he was doing fine, but it's, uh, it's different than seeing in the paper. Or on having Walter Cronkite report that JFK was killed. That's, that's different, I think. A challenger for us in school when we were growing up. Like we saw it explode, but you're not seeing the people. You're not seeing it as viscerally it from all these different angles from cell phones immediately. So graphic. Uh, just so heartbreaking. So, so heartbreaking. Um, and, but you guys, I mean, you guys had to do it like real time and I thought you guys were very thoughtful about how you dealt with it.

• 1:21:35Joe Rogan?

  Thanks. It was weird. It did always feel surreal when someone dies, but when someone gets assassinated like that. And then there was the weirdness of the reactions of people. That, that was the most disturbing aspect of it where I was like, what is, what have we done?

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:21:51Joe Rogan?

  Like what have we done to people's minds with social media and with political discourse that you are thrilled that someone was murdered? In front of his children on the internet for the world to see and you, you are celebrating because you didn't like his ideas.

• 1:22:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Joe Rogan?

  Like that is so crazy that we've gone that far.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  I mean, you feel, you could feel the evil. And as much as I tried not to, to look at all these reactions, it's just being fed to me because of the, the algorithm and everything else. So there were two in particular, one guy, one lady. And they were like cackling, like a witch's cackle, like out of a, like some sort of a, uh, some sort of a fairy tale that's meant to scare kids that, you know, but in real life, celebrating the death of Charlie Kirk. And I mean, that was revolting, but you could feel the evil through the cackles. I've never felt like that before, but I mean, very few times, I should say.

• 1:22:44Joe Rogan?

  I think a lot of it is very performative. And I think a lot of people are doing it for clicks and likes. And they think that there's a lot of like-minded people that feel the way they feel. And then there was a wave of people that were like excited about losing someone who was a right-wing influencer. They were happy about it. It was real weird.

• 1:23:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:03Joe Rogan?

  Like, and, and continues to really kind of fuck with my head because I didn't think that that would be the case. I'd hoped it'd be very few people. I'd, I'd, I'd hoped, but it wasn't. It was a lot. It was a lot in real life, too. It wasn't just social media. You know, I have, I've had multiple friends that encountered people celebrating in real life. One of my friends was at a cafe writing. And this lady came in and she was on a Zoom call. And she, it was right after the assassination. And she gets on the Zoom call and she's like, well, I don't know about you guys, but I am having a great day now. And they were like, this is a great day. I'm having a great day, too. I'm having a great day.

• 1:23:46Joe Rogan?

  The events of the day have made me very happy. And they were laughing and smiling and like clapping publicly, like in a cafe. And it was very obvious what they were talking about. Like, that's so gross.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  And feel comfortable enough to do that?

• 1:24:04Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:24:04Speaker 02

  Like, that's acceptable? That you're, you're, we want that attached to you for the rest of your life? And you don't take one second to say, ah, maybe, even from a practical standpoint, like, maybe I should just sit this out. Even if I feel happy, maybe I should do some reevaluations. But even if that's not the case, uh, like, maybe I should just sit this one out, type of a thing. But instead, they feel comfortable to jump on and say those things? I mean, it was ridiculous. And I, I mean, you felt the, I mean, I could feel the evil coming through. The phone, which is a strange thing to say, and I've been like in Bagram early on in the war in Afghanistan. I remember the, uh, I forget, I don't know if it was a really a black site prison, but it was like a nasty prison. They had this smell and you could feel like this, like kind of this overriding sense of, I don't know. You had despair, but also like this little, little bit of a current of evil in there. And then same thing in Baghdad where they held Saddam, like being in there, I've been in both those places.

• 1:24:45Speaker 02

  And, uh, and you kind of feel a little, but even more so, you feel it with Saddam's kids and they're like, they have these little islands and palaces. And you know what they did there, uh, like pulling girls off the street and that sort of thing. And you just feel dirty and you feel, or you feel evil. I mean, you sense it in some of those places, but, uh, but I felt that same kind of thing coming through the phone. And then I felt it again, it's weird to feel it so many times. My wife and I were in Paris, like I said, right before I came out here. Uh, so it was Morocco, finishing the show for about a month, then to Paris. And it happened to be Fashion Week and we weren't there for Fashion Week, it just happened to be Fashion Week. So it's, uh, which is still going now, I think. But we were in this, uh, we wanted to go to one dinner where we could see some people, kind of do some people watching. And I could, uh, store some of it away for books and that's what I'm always collecting, always collecting.

• 1:25:27Speaker 02

  And so we went to one of the place that, uh, Kardashians again, where they stay called like Kotis or anyway, went into this hotel. It's, uh, where a lot of the fashion people stay. And it was interesting at first, we're seeing some people just treat the waitstaff horribly. Um, and so you're getting, kind of taking some notes on that. And, uh, and then this guy walks in with like two minions and you don't see his face because he's got this like hood on. But there are these earrings that are attached to the outside and they're hanging down and he's this like fairly obese person. And so you never saw his face, the way he was, he walked in and then sat in front of us with these two guys on either side. That's their sunglasses on and they were like both dressed very similarly and both side of them. And they just were looking at him like this and just, it, it was so odd, but you felt this sense of evil.

• 1:26:08Speaker 02

  And I, I don't really like using that word too much, but you felt something odd, so much so that, uh, we paid the bill and left. It was odd, it was so odd. And a similar thing that I felt coming across the phone with those people celebrating.

• 1:26:20Joe Rogan?

  Who was the guy?

• 1:26:21Speaker 02

  I don't know, we were gonna go back to our hotel and look up, like, try to see, like, who's at Fashion Week? Who dresses this way? Cause it was very strange, like these black robes. And it was just the weirdest thing.

• 1:26:30Joe Rogan?

  With earrings?

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, but attached through the, through the, like, like your hoodie's on and kinda like clipped to the outside or something and coming down, like, from the outside of, like, this thin hoodie, it was very bizarre, very bizarre.

• 1:26:41Joe Rogan?

  But you felt like that person was evil.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've never, I mean, very rarely do you feel, or do I feel that, anyway?

• 1:26:47Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 1:26:48Speaker 02

  It's a very strange feeling, but I've learned to listen to my, to those feelings, listen to the gut, listen to the sixth sense that's kept us alive as a species for so long.

• 1:26:56Joe Rogan?

  I bet if you went to Davos, when they have, like, those W World Economic Forum conferences, I'd bet you'd smell brimstone.

• 1:27:02Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 1:27:04Joe Rogan?

  I bet you would.

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  I'd be looking for it, though, that's might be different, you know, that might be different if you're actually looking for it, it's kind of a difference.

• 1:27:09Joe Rogan?

  But I bet, like, whenever you can get a bunch of billionaires together that are trying to decide the fate of the world, I bet you feel evil.

• 1:27:15Speaker 02

  I don't know, I'm gonna have to go to one of those at some point, I did, uh, I did go to Bohemian Grove, I don't think you're supposed to talk about it, but it, uh, I didn't feel that there, like, it was more like, guys getting away for the weekend to drink.

• 1:27:25Joe Rogan?

  I've heard a lot of people say that about Bohemian Grove recently.

• 1:27:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:29Joe Rogan?

  And, and I know people that have gone, like, that have been invited, Kid Rock told me he went.

• 1:27:33Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:34Joe Rogan?

  Couple other guys told me they went, they're like, "I wanna see what the fuck it is."

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:37Joe Rogan?

  And so they went, I'm like, "But did you ever watch the Alex Jones video?", like, when Alex Jones and Jon Ronson snuck in to, that's back when Alex Jones and Jon Ronson were united.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Who's Jon Ronson?

• 1:27:47Joe Rogan?

  Jon Ronson is the British journalist.

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:27:49Joe Rogan?

  Uh, he's the guy who wrote So You've Been Publicly Shamed.

• 1:27:52Speaker 02

  I don't know, I'll have to look that up.

• 1:27:53Joe Rogan?

  It's about, like, one of the, it's, it's about, like, the first mass cancellations through social media.

• 1:28:00Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:28:01Joe Rogan?

  And like this new public shaming thing that happens.

• 1:28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:04Joe Rogan?

  Uh, very interesting guy.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:06Joe Rogan?

  But, there it is, there's Ronson.

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:28:09Joe Rogan?

  And so he snuck in with Alex Jones.

• 1:28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I saw someone. So I didn't see anything weird like that in the, but I know what you're talking about, the burning thing. I think that's, when I think about it, because I didn't see any of that stuff. But I'm thinking it must be-

• 1:28:21Joe Rogan?

  They probably don't do that anymore.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  Maybe not. I don't know, but I-

• 1:28:24Joe Rogan?

  That would probably ruin the party.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  Maybe. But when I'm thinking about it, if I think about it logically, you know, when you like throw something into a fire, like at Bud's, guys would burn their dungarees and dungarees are like a regular Navy uniform. And if you make it through Bud's and don't get kicked out of the teams, you'll never have to wear that uniform again. And it's like, it was awful. It was bell bottom jeans and a denim shirt, like tucked in that you had to starch. You know, especially in boot camp in a way that like, well, you hold it out flat. It's awful. And the little Dixie cup hat, like that's the uniform, like the worst uniform in the history of uniforms. Like it is nothing tough about that. But people would burn them. And so like never going back, you know, like that sort of a thing. And then 80% would quit, but they burn their uniforms. So I think it may be something like that. You know, you want to burn something. Like that's, that's what I think it might be, but I don't know.

• 1:29:09Joe Rogan?

  80% will quit before they get through Bud's.

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. Along the way, most in Hell Week, but at some point along the way, typically 80% give or take, you know, won't make it. But burning that thing is kind of like burning the boats, which is not a real thing.

• 1:29:21Joe Rogan?

  Guys get through Hell Week and then they still quit?

• 1:29:24Speaker 02

  Some, some, not many, not many. Most people will be performance dropped after that for not being comfortable in the water for pool comp when you're getting pounded off the bottom of the pool by instructors. And then you're having to go through the right procedures to get your air turned back on and continue to crawl. And then they come and hit you again and rip your mask off and hit you in the guts. You expel your air, turn off your air, tie your, because it's the two hoses, super old school, tie them in a knot. And they back off to see that you're comfortable in the water and that you're going to go through the right procedures to get everything working again and continue on. So that's about 15 minutes of doing that. And some people just aren't comfortable in the water. And so they'll go.

• 1:29:57Joe Rogan?

  Is it just a panic thing?

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, your air is cut off and it's easy to get more air. I mean, you're only 10 feet or 15 feet, whatever it is, back to air. So it's very easy to get that air. But you have to go through the right procedures and just like you've been taught and be very comfortable and- Yeah, that's what the test is all about.

• 1:30:13Joe Rogan?

  And they punch you in the stomach?

• 1:30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you lose some air, so it just, it just makes you even more uncomfortable.

• 1:30:19Joe Rogan?

  That makes a big difference, like who's punching you?

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, instructor.

• 1:30:22Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and where they're hitting you.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and it's a, yeah, and they pounce you off the bottom, you kind of just go limp. Just relax, just like in jujitsu or something like that, like, okay, relax, and then, okay, now I'm gonna get into this. So, I love, I love that sort of thing, because that was the only time in BUDs where it was like mono, I'm mono against the instructor. The rest of the time, you're just getting yelled at, being told you're worthless, push-ups, sit-ups, run, swim. But now, it's like, okay, you and me, I love that. Same thing, like, it's called, uh, life-saving? So that's the other time you get to put your hands on the instructors, is you have to go out and they'll act like a different type of person drowning. So, they'll fight you, or they're just dead weight, or something like that, and they're different body types. And so, you get to go, you swim out towards them, and then you have to get them back, and they'll take you down to the bottom, hit you off the bottom. And so, they're doing the work in that, in that, that situation. And you just relax, hold on, just like you've got someone in like a rear naked choke type thing.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  And, uh, and then, they have to go up, they're expending their energy, keeping you down there, they're gonna have to go up and get the air. So, just wait, go up to the top, grab a little bit of air, get closer to the side of the pool, then they take you down again, type of a thing. And I love that, because that's the only time you can put your hands on an instructor. So, I thought that was, that was good, I like that.

• 1:31:25Joe Rogan?

  So, but you have to put your hands on them like you're rescuing them.

• 1:31:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Joe Rogan?

  You can't just choke them.

• 1:31:29Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:31:30Joe Rogan?

  Because I'd be like, this dude is fucking ruining it, I'm gonna put him to sleep.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  No, but there's some similarities there, just some similarities with body positions, and all that sort of thing, just being comfortable, uh, without air for a certain amount of time.

• 1:31:40Joe Rogan?

  But there's limitations on how you grab them.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they teach you how to, how to, how to grab them, and how to get towards the side of the pool, type of thing.

• 1:31:46Joe Rogan?

  You can't keep them down, if you've got better breath than they do.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:31:49Joe Rogan?

  You can't like, hold on to them.

• 1:31:50Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 1:31:51Joe Rogan?

  You know, if they start coming up, you're like, not today, bitch.

• 1:31:54Speaker 02

  Not today. I mean, I guess somebody could, you know, but that's, uh, that doesn't sound like...

• 1:31:57Joe Rogan?

  Like, if you're a world champion freediver, if you're one of those 10-minute dudes.

• 1:32:00Speaker 02

  You do have some people like that to come through.

• 1:32:02Joe Rogan?

  I bet.

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  You do have some really incredible athletes that come through.

• 1:32:05Joe Rogan?

  I bet.

• 1:32:06Speaker 02

  And a lot of them don't make it, because they're being, they're treated like Ferraris or Lamborghinis most of their life, if they're really an elite athlete. And then, all of a sudden, they're being treated like a, like a Chevy, you know, and just thrown through walls, or whatever, and it's like, meh, not, uh...

• 1:32:17Joe Rogan?

  Crazy pressure test that has to be done. I mean, there's no real job that's similar, other than, you know, Rangers and other elite special forces teams.

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Joe Rogan?

  Where you have to get through... This horrific thing to prove that you're the type of person that they want to train.

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:35Joe Rogan?

  We're not sure if we want to train you even.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:37Joe Rogan?

  So we don't, we don't know if we're ever going to use you.

• 1:32:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:40Joe Rogan?

  And so we're going to try to break you.

• 1:32:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, to prove that you want to be here.

• 1:32:43Joe Rogan?

  Kind of nuts.

• 1:32:44Speaker 02

  And that you have the mental fortitude to be here, and that you have, you can work as a team. There's a few different things that they're, they're looking for, but it's worked for a while. It's worked for a long time. It's a good test.

• 1:32:52Joe Rogan?

  But it was getting really weird during the woke, woke years where they were talking about lowering the standards.

• 1:32:58Speaker 02

  Right, there is that. And then, so the standard part, so even if they say that they're not lowering the standards, this is how they get around it, and this is military in general, that they give you more chances. So before, if you only got one or two chances, maybe three, something like that, to pass in evolution, maybe the standard remains the same, but in order to get this person, said person through, now you get four chances, five chances, six chances, seven chances, eight chances. So they say, "The standards have not changed." Well, okay, not really, but you gave them a lot more chances, which you didn't give other people before who were washed out of the program because they only got one chance, or two chances, or three.

• 1:33:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:36Speaker 02

  So it's a...

• 1:33:37Joe Rogan?

  Like, what would it be that you would get more chances doing?

• 1:33:39Speaker 02

  Like that pool comp thing. I think you got, you got two chances on the first day and two chances on the second day. And I passed the first day, just because I happened to be comfortable in the water. But, but some guys made it through in that fourth one, like, "Oh, made it, just made it." But they didn't get a fifth. They did not get a sixth.

• 1:33:53Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:33:54Speaker 02

  And now, maybe, I don't know if this is true, but this is a way around the standards. "Give somebody a fifth, give them a sixth," something like that, or "You failed the old course." Okay, one time, you get some sort of a, like a warning or something like that, and then you do it again, second time, you're out, or whatever it is. Well, now you can just, just as many times as it takes. "Oh, they passed it. They passed it once. Let's move them on."

• 1:34:13Joe Rogan?

  Were they doing that to just expand the ranks? Or were they doing it to get a specific demographic?

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not saying that they did it. I'm saying that's how you would get around the standards.

• 1:34:23Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:34:23Speaker 02

  Like, you'd be able to say that "We haven't, we haven't lowered the standards," sir, type of a thing, when you're in front of Congress, and they don't know where to ask those kind of questions. "Well, did you, okay, well, did you give them more chances?"

• 1:34:35Joe Rogan?

  Did you change anything?

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, something like that. So they can get away with, yeah, telling the truth-ish, but not expanding on that. So that's just a way to do it, so.

• 1:34:44Joe Rogan?

  A bizarre sign of the times to make elite special forces units more easy to get into.

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a, it's a thing.

• 1:34:51Joe Rogan?

  Strange.

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:52Joe Rogan?

  Because there, there was a push... To lower standards, there's a push to try to get women in it too, right?

• 1:34:57Speaker 02

  I think so. I don't know how much of a push it is.

• 1:34:59Joe Rogan?

  Have any women ever gone through it?

• 1:35:01Speaker 02

  I don't know how far they've gotten. I think there were a couple that tried it and haven't made it. I'm not sure because I'm so removed from it now, but I think that there, I don't know if there's a push for it, but it's open now. And the part of that, it's for me, it's, you know, I'll probably get cancelled now. But, you know, or maybe we're past that, I don't know. But to me, it's, it's not, and what they, what they say now, we have to say officially, I think, is that the standards are the same, doesn't matter if you're male or female, standards remain the same. Okay, fine. But when you get to an elite unit like that, or any unit, and this might be a failing on my part, I fully admit that. I mean, I was raised, when a woman enters the room, you stand up, you open the door for a lady, type of a thing, like those things, you stand up for, you're chivalrous, you're a gentleman, type of a thing. And now, all of a sudden, in a leadership position,

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  I'm supposed to treat a female the exact same way that I treat a male going into combat. There's no way I could possibly ever do that. I'm going to be much more concerned about her than I am him. And once again, that might be a failing on my part, I fully accept that, but I'm glad I never had to deal with it in real life, but I see that being something that comes into play, especially if you're raised to protect, as a protector, as a sentinel, as a guardian, and now all of a sudden, you're supposed to treat said female who've been raised to protect, treat them exactly the same way as a guy going into combat.

• 1:36:16Joe Rogan?

  There's certain physical realities, I feel, that we just have to address. When, when people want to talk about equality, I understand it when you're talking about jobs that don't require shooting people and stabbing people in hand-to-hand combat, okay? Because as soon as you do that, and you are physically far weaker and far slower, and you're, you're just, you're not a man, it's a different thing. I feel the same way about women, like if you wanted to have a cross-gender combat sports, if you wanted to have biological men fighting biological women, I don't care if they're the same weight, like, don't, it's not fair.

• 1:36:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:36:56Joe Rogan?

  It's not, it's not, it's not smart for them to be doing that. That said, I feel like you should be able to do what you want to do.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  I know, it's tough.

• 1:37:05Joe Rogan?

  In this life.

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:06Joe Rogan?

  And I don't want to limit anybody's choices in this life, but... If you want the best people for the job, I can't see how they're going to be weaker people. That doesn't really make sense. And if you have a physical requirement for all the men, and that physical requirement involves a lot of like heavy, physical working out and labor, I don't know that a woman can pass that.

• 1:37:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, I've seen what you guys had to go through to get through BUDs. And like, okay.

• 1:37:33Speaker 07

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• 1:38:03Joe Rogan?

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• 1:38:47Joe Rogan?

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• 1:39:03Joe Rogan?

  You have to be strong, like you have to, there has to be a certain amount of physical strength that you have to be able to do that.

• 1:39:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, for me, it even comes, yeah, I guess that it comes down to that, and it's probably my failing, but maybe not, maybe we're supposed to be, you know, supposed to be protectors.

• 1:39:15Joe Rogan?

  I think you're supposed to be.

• 1:39:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, supposed to be protectors.

• 1:39:17Joe Rogan?

  All throughout human history, that's been the case.

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you're supposed to all of a sudden change because of a policy directive. But yeah, I mean, we're going back, I mean, it's causing, ruffling a lot of feathers within the military right now, changing the Department of Defense to the Department of War, which is, and I'm not saying that they got this from me, I'm just saying that they, I've never heard anyone talk about it until I talked about it back in 2001. And I wrote some articles after the Afghanistan withdrawal, and I went on Fox a bunch of times and talked about how we need to, precision in language reflects precision in thought. Department of Defense, defense has a sort of connotation to it, a definition to it, and the Department of War is different than a Department of Defense, just the language of it. And I said, it's time to change the Department of Defense back to the Department of War, and I used the Afghanistan withdrawal as that example, and put that in two articles,

• 1:40:01Speaker 02

  I think, with one on Town Hall, I believe, and then, but I talked about it, and I'd never heard anybody mention that before, so.

• 1:40:07Joe Rogan?

  Is that what it used to be? It used to be the Department of War?

• 1:40:09Speaker 02

  Department of War up to the end of World War II, and then it changed, and then it was official in 1947 with the reorganization of the military and our intelligence apparatus. So from 1947 onward, became the Department of Defense.

• 1:40:20Joe Rogan?

  Do you take any heat in your books, because one of the things that you talk about, especially in The Terminal List, is horrific government corruption. And the willingness to put soldiers' lives as expendable in order to profit.

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I certainly talk about it in here, it was a great conversation, one of my favorite chapters, is these two characters, Tom Reese and his buddy Quinn, so one special forces guy, one SEAL, and they're having this conversation on China Beach, and it's great to write those chapters and do all this research into China Beach and to Nang, and what kind of surfboards they were using, how they were shaped, like all this stuff just to bring you back to that, to that timeframe, but that's what they're talking about.

• 1:40:58Joe Rogan?

  So this is about James Reese's dad?

• 1:41:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, 1968, his dad, and people find out where the tomahawk came from, where the watch came from, where honey and the coffee came from, so all these little things are kind of woven in there as well, but exactly what you just talked about is a conversation in this book in 1968, and it's the same conversation that we're having today. But I wouldn't say I take heat over it, and I'm never going to worry in a chapter or a book about who am I going to alienate by writing something.

• 1:41:23Joe Rogan?

  Criminals?

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  Or charged.

• 1:41:25Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you gotta piss off the criminals.

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly, or the people in power.

• 1:41:29Joe Rogan?

  He's being honest about what we did.

• 1:41:32Speaker 02

  Or just people in power in general, or any, or just a part of a readership, maybe. I'm just gonna focus on that story. I have to focus on that story. I'm not doing this, I'm not writing this for a reader. I'm writing this for the story, and that's the way I honor that reader. So it's all about that story. But CIA has been very nice. We got to film the end of Dark Wolf at CIA headquarters. And I hadn't been back there since I was in the SEAL team. So I'm at CIA headquarters. I have a cameo in there that I lived through at the end of the show on episode seven. I'm the guard that takes the guy's ID as he's leaving the, and I have one line, I think it's, I say something anyway. But it was very cool to be there in front of that memorial wall, that wall of stars. Especially knowing some of those guys that are on there, that are memorialized by those stars. So the CIA was very kind to let us use that lobby.

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  They didn't ask us to change anything in the show, didn't put any restraints or restrictions on anything. They just let us use it, and that was very cool. And some guys came down that didn't need to come down that day, which was really cool. They wanted to talk to me about some stuff that I did in Iraq, and it was very, very cool to talk to them. Very cool. See the museum there, get a little tour of the CIA museum, all that stuff. So they've been very helpful. The military, not so much. The military does not let us use any aircraft carriers, submarines, helicopters, anything like that, like they do for some other shows. And I think that's probably because I blew an admiral up in his office in the first episode, first series in the book, so I don't think the military is a big fan.

• 1:42:51Joe Rogan?

  Is that really what it is, you think?

• 1:42:53Speaker 02

  I think it probably is, because we were gonna use, for the first show, we were gonna use Camp Pendleton. And the Marines were all on board. And then their Department of the Navy. So then the Navy found out about it and quashed it. So we did not get to use Camp Pendleton. Yeah. So it's, and like in Jack Ryan and stuff, I think they use actual military helicopters and maybe an amphib ship or something like that. So they get some support from the military.

• 1:43:16Joe Rogan?

  They didn't blow anybody up.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  They did, exactly. They're not blowing up admirals. They don't have corrupt admirals getting blown up in their offices with asbestos. So, so I don't think the military is a big fan. The rank and file are. Those guys are awesome. And my book signings, there's so many military, so much law enforcement, firefighters, first responders. The audience is full of those guys, and it's so fantastic.

• 1:43:34Joe Rogan?

  That's fiction, though. That seems so bitchy.

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:43:38Joe Rogan?

  It seems like, also, that that would be a very good recruitment tool, because these guys look like badasses. People are like, "Fuck, I wanna be a SEAL." Fucking badass.

• 1:43:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:49Joe Rogan?

  And so, a lot of guys would probably join because of that series. And they're like, "Nah, you bad guy."

• 1:43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:57Joe Rogan?

  It's a bad guy, though.

• 1:43:58Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:43:58Joe Rogan?

  It's not you.

• 1:43:59Speaker 02

  Justice.

• 1:44:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Justice. What are you guys gonna let all the bad guys off the hook?

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:44:03Joe Rogan?

  Come on, you got a murderous bad guy that happens to be an admiral? You don't wanna see him get whacked?

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 1:44:09Joe Rogan?

  It's fiction!

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I knew that would happen at some point. I knew the, uh, people would eventually come through a line, signing line, and say, "I joined the military because of you," or "I became a police officer because of something I read in your books." And, because that's me, I was, I was influenced by popular culture, growing up. And that helped me on my path into the SEAL teams. So I, I knew it would happen, I didn't really conceptualize it any further than that. But, when it happened, it was first time, which was a couple of years ago, because the first book came out in 2018. So if someone reads that at 16, 17, 18, now they're a few years into this career in law enforcement or in the military.

• 1:44:37Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:44:38Speaker 02

  And, uh, and guys have come up and said that now, and I'm always like, "Oh, man, I hope you made the right choice." I'm like, "Oh, I hope I was just one part of a lot of information that you took in in order to make this decision."

• 1:44:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:49Speaker 02

  But, uh, but, but they do say it now. And, uh, like with David Morell in, uh, in Phoenix the other night for the launch of the book. He has been through like burn units and stuff, saying hi to people as part of like USO tours and stuff. And people, like, missing arms and legs or totally burned, say, "Hey, I joined the military because of Rambo." And him, it's like, "Oh, he's such a nice guy, he's just like, oh."

• 1:45:07Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:45:08Speaker 02

  And it's like devastating, devastating.

• 1:45:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, man.

• 1:45:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, so, so, it's, uh, but for me, it's like, hey, it's always gonna be about the story. I knew that would happen, but it was a surprise the first time. Kinda like the tattoo was the first surprise, was a surprise the first time I saw it. Like, like the baby the other night was the first, was surprised. So it's, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it does happen.

• 1:45:26Joe Rogan?

  Well, you, you really honor the actual experiences that these people have in your books. It's, it's very believable and realistic, and it, it does honor those people.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  Thank you, thank you. That's what I, for this one in particular, that's what I wanted to do. I wanted those guys who were not just McAfee Sog going over the borders and fighting this in denied areas where they weren't supposed to be in Cambodia, Laos, North Vietnam. But anyone who stood up and went down there to serve, I wanted to make sure I honored them and gave my heart and soul to every word. And I felt that responsibility as I was writing this. I wanted those guys to read it and say, ah, he put in the effort to get it right. And even people that just lived through the sixties, it didn't go downrange. I wanted them to read it and say, oh, he tried to, he got close. Even if I made a mistake here or there, like he put in the effort to try to capture the essence of 1968. And, uh, and that's, that's why so much work went into this, but.

• 1:46:15Joe Rogan?

  Those guys that went into the tunnels.

• 1:46:17Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:18Joe Rogan?

  Like that, that is some of, those are some of the fucking craziest stories.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:24Joe Rogan?

  You're going into the tunnels, hand to hand.

• 1:46:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, with a 1911 and a flashlight.

• 1:46:30Joe Rogan?

  Looking for Viet Cong and not knowing what you're gonna find, not knowing who's in there, not knowing what's waiting for you, what's booby trapped.

• 1:46:37Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. That's gotta be some of the toughest fighting one can do in the dark, in a tunnel, under the ground, essentially by yourself, because you can't fit anybody else in there with you.

• 1:46:46Joe Rogan?

  Did you watch Peaky Blinders?

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  No, I need to watch it.

• 1:46:49Joe Rogan?

  It's really awesome. But one of the aspects of these characters is that the, the Peaky Blinders were all veterans. And they were all in World War One in trench warfare. And they were in the tunnels.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  Oh, like the trenches.

• 1:47:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. And so like they, they came back and they have flashbacks and there's a lot of like.

• 1:47:09Speaker 02

  Shell shock.

• 1:47:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, waking up in the middle of the night stabbing people, thinking, thinking you're there again. It's just some wild scenes of them in the trenches.

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:19Joe Rogan?

  And it's just like, Jesus.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  And we're seeing some more of that trench stuff in, uh, in, uh, Ukraine.

• 1:47:24Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:24Speaker 02

  I mean, whoa.

• 1:47:25Joe Rogan?

  But live video though, I mean, you're seeing like 4K video of cell phones and drones and.

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  The drone stuff is scary. I'm so glad that we don't have, that I didn't have to deal with that during my time in.

• 1:47:34Joe Rogan?

  It's fucking nuts. I was watching a guy who was in the back of a truck. And they were running and the drone is coming at him. He's firing at the drone and shoots it maybe three, four yards from him.

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  I saw that one. That's crazy.

• 1:47:49Joe Rogan?

  Fucking nuts. Fucking nuts. And you realize like, this is what they're dealing with?

• 1:47:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:55Joe Rogan?

  Exploding drones that are whizzing towards them and someone on the other end, somewhere in the world, has got a fucking joystick and trying to get you with it.

• 1:48:05Speaker 02

  Yep. I put that in True Believer, second book, and we put it in the show. We filmed it in the second show. I have a drone attack in there. But that was a few, few years ago. And just imagine when it gets to the next stage where it sends a mosquito in here, a fly, and it's looking at your face. And it's like, oh, warrant out for your arrest. Boom, lands on you. Over you go. And that sort of thing. It's crazy.

• 1:48:24Joe Rogan?

  Injects you with some toxic shit.

• 1:48:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's so weird time.

• 1:48:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, like those videos that we just saw that looked like Muhammad Ali's on the show. I mean, all that sort of stuff. I mean, it's gonna, we're getting to that point where it's going to identify you somehow, some sort of an identification through your eyes, through blood, through facial recognition, a combination of all three. And then that is gonna allow you to access whatever it is, information online, credit cards, all the rest of it, of course. But what it's really doing is allowing something, whether it's the government or big tech, more control over you. Because eventually you're gonna go in and, okay, to make sure this is you, paying for, let's say, a steak. And now, all of a sudden, oh, you've had your allotment of steak because of the environment, because of like, how many cows and whatever they're, they're doing. You can't buy this steak.

• 1:49:08Speaker 02

  Or your allotment of power for your vehicle, you've used yours up for the, for the mother gas in your car. All of those things. But it's gonna know exactly, because you're gonna have to do it to access information online. And we're getting closer and closer to that.

• 1:49:22Joe Rogan?

  Well, angels just submitted to it. They just submitted to digital ID.

• 1:49:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:49:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, these motherfuckers are pushing digital ID on these people. And once they do digital ID, they're gonna attach it to a social credit score. They're gonna attach it to a carbon footprint score. And then they'll be able to control your movement and control you entirely. And most importantly, they've already arrested 12,000 people for social media posts.

• 1:49:45Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 1:49:46Joe Rogan?

  Above and beyond every other country, way above Russia. Russia was like 400 last year. The UK's 12,000. There, any criticism of immigration, any criticism of grooming gangs and people being raped, any talk about how horrible this is, they come visit you. It's like someone's trying to destroy England. It's literally like they've got a concerted effort to destroy England and they're getting away with it.

• 1:50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what happens over there?

• 1:50:15Joe Rogan?

  It's really crazy. It's really crazy to watch. Because the mass immigration's not an accident. It's on, if I was gonna destroy a country, I would do it exactly the way they're doing it. I'd take away their freedom, take away their ability to protest, take away their guns, which they did in the 90s. And then you start tightening that noose. Tighter and tighter, add more restrictions, more this, more that.

• 1:50:39Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, we're getting closer.

• 1:50:41Joe Rogan?

  And just the arresting people, when you arrest 12,000 people for social media posts, you don't just arrest people for social media posts. You change people's ability to post about things because of fear. So they self-censor. So you don't even, you're hitting them with like, this one guy who complained about, there's a famous video where this fucking idiot in a wig. He's one of them judges and they wear the wigs, the white powdered wigs. And he's sentencing this guy for 20 months for social media posts. That are normal. Like, normal complaints about mass immigration of illegals from other countries that aren't assimilating and that they believe are ruining their society, which there's a real argument for. And that's what online discourse is supposed to be about, like, having conversations,

• 1:51:25Joe Rogan?

  like I'm voicing my concern for the way society is running right now because of what's happening. And no one's doing anything about it and no one's protecting anybody. It's nuts, man.

• 1:51:37Speaker 02

  Anytime in human history that would be called an invasion.

• 1:51:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:40Speaker 02

  And now it's...

• 1:51:41Joe Rogan?

  It's not just an invasion, it's like they're doing it, they're letting people do it. They're enabling these people doing it. And they're putting them on the dole too, which is even crazier. And you know, you're seeing that in America as well. Where they just uncovered a bunch of people that were illegals that had been given social security numbers and were already voting. And this is nuts, man. It's like, it's a concerted effort. And this was one of the main focuses that a lot of people had in the 2024 campaign. There was one side that wanted to stop that and one side that wanted to pretend that it was a good thing. And like that you have an open border and criminals and cartel members are just flooding through.

• 1:52:22Joe Rogan?

  People from foreign countries of military fighting age just flooding through and you're pretending there's nothing wrong with that. Like you're setting us up for a real big fucking problem.

• 1:52:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. Have you seen the videos? I'm sure you have. It's Bill Clinton, it's Hillary Clinton, it's Schumer, it's Pelosi, it's Biden from the 90s.

• 1:52:41Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:52:42Speaker 02

  Like giving these speeches on the floor of Congress that today would be extremely right wing.

• 1:52:48Joe Rogan?

  Extremely.

• 1:52:49Speaker 02

  Normal.

• 1:52:50Joe Rogan?

  Hillary Clinton in, I think it was 2012? Like whatever it was where she was running for president and she's more MAGA than MAGA.

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:05Joe Rogan?

  Like she is talking about if you're a criminal, you know, no ifs, ands, or buts, you get kicked out. And if you're here, you pay a stiff fine.

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:14Joe Rogan?

  Because you cut the line. Like, yeah.

• 1:53:16Speaker 02

  It's wild.

• 1:53:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like what happened to that?

• 1:53:18Speaker 02

  It's out there, but then we're not, most people don't know about it. They don't see it. You have to look for it or something like one of those lines.

• 1:53:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, it lets you realize that these people that are playing these roles of leaders, they don't have principled stances on things. They go with wherever their party's leaning and wherever the majority of people believe is the direction to go. And they might not even implement these things, but just to say it in order to get elected and get people to vote for them.

• 1:53:43Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 1:53:44Joe Rogan?

  And that's what they did.

• 1:53:45Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 1:53:46Joe Rogan?

  Hillary Clinton didn't even believe in gay marriage until 2013.

• 1:53:49Speaker 02

  All polling, I guess, right? But it's a manipulation. And it's also manipulation of the populace through all these different platforms.

• 1:53:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:57Speaker 02

  And what did you think also of the? I don't like to call them leaders. I like to call them elected representatives. That's what they're supposed to be. It's supposed to represent us and they send, they get there and they represent themselves. But how was the inauguration? I didn't get to ask you.

• 1:54:11Joe Rogan?

  Being in the room with all the lizard people that run the world is so strange.

• 1:54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:15Joe Rogan?

  It's so weird. It was like seeing like Hillary and seeing Obama and seeing Kamala Harris and Biden and and Bush and all those people there. It was very weird. It's really weird, man. It's real weird. It's real weird being in the Capitol and to realize like how strange this whole process is. I mean, there's this like public humiliation ritual where Trump goes on stage and talks shit and they're right behind him. And they have to eat it and everybody cheers and claps and it's very surreal. Yeah, very surreal, very surreal. Surreal also that I'm right there too, on the stage like, what? Five rows back from the president. It's like the strangest fucking thing on earth.

• 1:54:57Joe Rogan?

  And it's also strange just that this is this weird ritual that they do, this changing of the control. And then, you know, the, the beginning of the battle for the next four years. Where they, everybody is like slinking away to try their strategy and figure out what to do next and who's our warrior? And now they're trying to figure it out.

• 1:55:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:55:18Joe Rogan?

  Now they're talking about Pete Buttigieg and Kamala Harris. That's what they're gonna run like.

• 1:55:23Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 1:55:24Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:55:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't fight against that.

• 1:55:27Joe Rogan?

  Apparently they don't have any faith in Gavin Newsom. Which is kinda funny because he wants to be president so bad.

• 1:55:35Speaker 02

  That's true, what it looks like.

• 1:55:36Joe Rogan?

  You can't ruin a city and then go on to ruin a state and say, guys, that was just practice. Once I get as a president, I'm gonna fix it. Fix it all.

• 1:55:45Speaker 02

  I mean, it's so crazy, but he's such a great politician. I mean, he's so smooth.

• 1:55:48Joe Rogan?

  He's not though. No, no, I think he's terrible.

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  How's he remained in power for so long?

• 1:55:52Joe Rogan?

  Cause he has low competition. There's no one who's good is competing against him. There's no sincerity.

• 1:55:57Speaker 02

  I should say he's not a good politician. I should say he's smooth.

• 1:55:59Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he's a good bullshit artist.

• 1:56:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what I mean.

• 1:56:02Joe Rogan?

  But it's like what the things that he says when he gets confronted with things, we have the highest this and the highest that. Everybody's leaving. You have the highest unemployment. You have the highest homelessness.

• 1:56:13Speaker 02

  What's the thing with Hollywood?

• 1:56:13Joe Rogan?

  Money's missing. You killed Hollywood. Like Hollywood doesn't exist anymore. It's literally gone.

• 1:56:19Speaker 02

  That was such an easy one.

• 1:56:20Joe Rogan?

  You mandated vaccines for kids that didn't need them. You guys, you did horrible shit.

• 1:56:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's awful. We, I went to the one in 2017, so January 2017, so we decided not to go to this last one. And, uh, because we felt we experienced it last time and there was all the, the demos on fire and the, all the chain link fences as we were getting, you know, going to all this stuff. So, so we decided not to go to this one, but then, uh, then Tulsi called and asked if I'd go to her, uh, her swearing in. And so I was like, yeah, of course. And, uh, so we went to that one and that was really cool. That was really cool to be in the room with her when she got sworn in.

• 1:56:50Joe Rogan?

  That is cool.

• 1:56:51Speaker 02

  That was amazing. Yeah.

• 1:56:51Joe Rogan?

  Have you talked to her about her experience there?

• 1:56:53Speaker 02

  Uh, I haven't, I didn't want to bother her too much, but we just, she just posted about the book, actually. I didn't expect her to do that, but she did that today, which is very, very kind.

• 1:57:00Joe Rogan?

  The reality of the, the work, the reality of being in the organization is very sobering, apparently.

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  I bet. Oh my gosh. It's gotta be like nothing you, whatever you think it is from the outside before you step in, it's gotta be a thousand times worse at least when you step into it.

• 1:57:13Joe Rogan?

  It's bad and it's very compartmentalized. There's a bunch of people that run various offices and they're all working against you.

• 1:57:20Speaker 02

  Oh, the bureaucracy is so huge and I hope she stays in it. I mean, she's such a great person. I mean, I'd support her as we were friends, but, uh, but I mean, it, it's gotta be hard to stay in that fight when you see it.

• 1:57:30Joe Rogan?

  It's gotta be hard. And she's got a lot of character and that's not, that doesn't get rewarded there.

• 1:57:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I mean, I'd, I'd, I mean, I would support her and there's a path for her, you know, and there's, there is definitely a path for her to, uh, to get into the, to the White House.

• 1:57:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it could be. She could be our first female president, especially after, you know, we've seen like what they tried to do to her. Uh, they put her on the quiet skies thing. So they put her on a terrorist watch list. She was a US Congresswoman for eight fucking years. She served overseas in, uh, a, a, a medical unit, right? So she was deployed twice in a medical unit in the middle of the fucking war. And you, you're labeling her a terrorist. Like whoever did that, like whoever signed off on that should be in fucking jail.

• 1:58:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:18Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:58:19Speaker 02

  I mean, so much of that stuff.

• 1:58:20Joe Rogan?

  That's such an abuse.

• 1:58:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:22Joe Rogan?

  That's such an abuse of power.

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:24Joe Rogan?

  And you, you want to talk about like going after your political enemies and in, In a sick third world country way. That's a great example of that. You put a congresswoman for eight years on the terrorist watch for what?

• 1:58:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:58:37Joe Rogan?

  For what reason? None? No reason? There's not like some crazy tweets where she's made and there's nothing like.

• 1:58:45Speaker 02

  She's so thoughtful.

• 1:58:46Joe Rogan?

  It's not even like Margaret Taylor Greene who gets hog wild sometimes. She's not like that.

• 1:58:49Speaker 02

  Gets a little aggressive.

• 1:58:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, she's a little aggressive. Like Tulsi's not like that at all.

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  No, she's so thoughtful, so smart.

• 1:58:55Joe Rogan?

  And you put her on a terrorist watch list.

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58:57Joe Rogan?

  Shame on you.

• 1:58:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:59Joe Rogan?

  Fucking shame on you.

• 1:59:00Speaker 02

  And now she's the director of national intelligence.

• 1:59:02Joe Rogan?

  Crazy, right?

• 1:59:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:03Joe Rogan?

  Boy, it's weird how that happens.

• 1:59:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's fantastic. But yeah, the next one, it's, uh, I haven't, I haven't read the book. Um, but, uh, it's, uh, Kamala's book where she says she didn't choose Pete Buttigieg.

• 1:59:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, because he's gay.

• 1:59:16Speaker 02

  Because of his sexual orientation.

• 1:59:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:17Speaker 02

  I'm not sure about this. People can correct in the comments, please, but I believe that's illegal. Like, if you didn't hire someone because they were, had a certain sexual orientation, I believe that's illegal.

• 1:59:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're allowed to choose who you think is gonna work the best.

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  But not because of, and you'd say something else, like, oh, they're not qualified. You cannot, I mean, I believe, well, someone can tell us if we're, if I'm wrong, we could probably look it up. But I do not think you can discriminate against someone strictly because of that. If they're not qualified, of course, you choose someone else, fine. But she goes ahead and says that's the reason that she didn't hire this guy to be her VP.

• 1:59:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:59:49Speaker 02

  I believe that is illegal.

• 1:59:51Joe Rogan?

  Wow. I never even thought of that.

• 1:59:55Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 1:59:56Joe Rogan?

  Well, she also has been saying something really crazy. She's been saying that this is the closest race of the 21st century and that it wasn't a mandate. That's just not true.

• 2:00:05Speaker 02

  It's not true.

• 2:00:06Joe Rogan?

  Gore and Bush was much closer.

• 2:00:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:00:08Joe Rogan?

  I think that was a half of a percent.

• 2:00:10Speaker 02

  It's, yes. I don't know why she keeps saying this.

• 2:00:12Joe Rogan?

  She's, it's just a lie. And then also she's, she's leaving out the fact that she lost every swing state. Every single one.

• 2:00:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:22Joe Rogan?

  So, like, what are you talking about?

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:00:24Joe Rogan?

  He won the popular vote and he won the Electoral College vote. And that's a mandate.

• 2:00:30Speaker 02

  I think she all, yeah.

• 2:00:31Joe Rogan?

  Say that it's not a mandate. It's like, but it's almost like if you say it to the converted, that they're gonna listen and repeat it. Yeah, he barely won.

• 2:00:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:00:40Joe Rogan?

  Like, no, he won.

• 2:00:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:41Joe Rogan?

  He won every swing state. He won the popular vote. That's called winning. You win the House and you win the Senate. That, he won. That means he won.

• 2:00:49Speaker 02

  Charlie Sheen calls that winning.

• 2:00:51Joe Rogan?

  This is crazy talk.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's wild. It is so wild.

• 2:00:54Joe Rogan?

  But she's probably hammered. She's probably up there drinking wine. I'll fucking kick his ass next time. Fuck him.

• 2:00:59Speaker 02

  It's so brutal. And I think she's took credit for the no tax on tips things in the book as well.

• 2:01:04Joe Rogan?

  That's hilarious, cuz that was clearly his.

• 2:01:06Speaker 02

  Clearly.

• 2:01:06Joe Rogan?

  He said it first and they copied it.

• 2:01:08Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 2:01:09Joe Rogan?

  Did she really say that in the book?

• 2:01:10Speaker 02

  I haven't read it, but I, I, I have heard from someone who did read it that she did, so I, you know.

• 2:01:16Joe Rogan?

  She had an address not coming on here in the book too, which I thought was funny.

• 2:01:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was interesting.

• 2:01:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, their, her team was not truthful about that encounter at all. They never committed to doing the show, ever. They, they said that, you know, I said that I had a personal day, which is not true. I said I am not available the day that Trump was here. I said that day's not, I didn't say that I was, have a personal day. They just made that up.

• 2:01:41Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 2:01:41Joe Rogan?

  And then they also said that they sent someone here to go through the studio, like, sent someone to do a walkthrough. Not true.

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:01:48Joe Rogan?

  Not true.

• 2:01:50Speaker 02

  How could, I mean, it's just you repeat it and you say it and your side believes it and you move on.

• 2:01:54Joe Rogan?

  Why would they do that when I can just say that's not true?

• 2:01:56Speaker 02

  It's bizarre.

• 2:01:57Joe Rogan?

  But who's, who are they gonna believe? They're gonna believe me or a person who literally says whatever the audience wants them to say?

• 2:02:03Speaker 02

  Sends someone to lies for a living.

• 2:02:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I'm not, why would I lie? I have no reason to lie.

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  So is I. It would've been interesting to.

• 2:02:10Joe Rogan?

  If I fucked her over, I would tell the truth.

• 2:02:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:02:12Joe Rogan?

  If I was like, we lied. We told her I was taking a personal day, but realized I wanted to get Trump in. Not true. I tried to do both of them on the same day. That was my idea.

• 2:02:21Speaker 02

  That would've been amazing.

• 2:02:21Joe Rogan?

  My idea was to do. Trump during the day and then her to come, she had a thing she was doing in Houston. After the thing with Houston, I go, I'll fucking do it at midnight. I don't care. We'll do it whenever you want to do it. Yeah. While you're in Texas, but I just can't do during the day because Trump's gonna be here. Yeah, yeah. But they had to have known. I mean, the Secret Service was, there was 200 guys here. They, they had fucking. In Texas? No, in this fucking studio. Oh, for Trump, for Trump. People here for Trump. Yeah. I mean, I'm not exaggerating. It was packed. Wow. It was packed. That's crazy. Bro, they didn't fuck around. Okay. They did not fuck around. They surrounded the building. It was, it was nuts. They, yeah, they, they made sure that everything was safe and secure. Wow.

• 2:03:03Joe Rogan?

  So like, someone had to know something that he was here. Yeah, yeah. It's not a mystery, but I said. Bringing the dogs through. But I wasn't trying to be deceptive. I said, I'll do it later. I just can't do it during this time. That's the excuse they took, probably. That's like, okay, they took that excuse. They never wanted to do the whole thing. Never. They wanted to do like a 45 minute thing. Scripted. In a, in a different place. They didn't say scripted, but they, they did say that there were some things that she didn't want to talk about. And then they denied that. Yeah. That's what I meant by scripted. Yeah. I said, I don't care. I'll talk to you about cooking. I don't give a fuck. I just want to know, who are you? I'll figure you out. I'll figure you out in a few hours. Yeah, in three hours, you can't fake your way through a conversation like this. No, I'll find you. I'll find you. Yeah.

• 2:03:47Joe Rogan?

  I'll ask you controversial things. Like, it's all I have to do is ask you, why is the border open? We could talk about that for three hours. Oh, my gosh. What are you trying to do? Like, you could close that border. Trump closed that border in a day. Amazing. In a day. Is my, you could say, I hate what's going on with ICE and I don't like it either. I don't like this thing of like taking people. And here's the thing, well, they should have done it the right way. Yeah, okay, but if you're poor and you're living in a third world country, that's not an available option. Okay, what is an available option is this one administration over four years is encouraging people to go through. Not only they encouraging you to go through, there's Red Cross stops along the way. They give you maps. They tell you how to do it. People are being, they're funding people getting in. They're paying for air flights.

• 2:04:32Joe Rogan?

  Lights.

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:33Joe Rogan?

  They're flying people in. They're moving people into swing states. They're getting them on Medicare. They're getting them on social security. There's, we talked about this one lady who did an interview, we're saying she was being told to try to get people on permanent disability. So she was told to ask them, do you have back problems? And they're like, yes. Okay, great. Personal disability. Now, she, she said, I was told to view them as a client now.

• 2:05:00Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05:01Joe Rogan?

  And so you're trying essentially to bribe people to now, once you get them in, to move to a swing state. Then they count on the census. Once they count on the census, it adds congressional seats.

• 2:05:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:05:11Joe Rogan?

  So it's like, you, you're, you're rigging elections by bringing in immigrants. And then you're giving them money. And all these people that live in these poor communities, they're like, hey, where was all this money for us?

• 2:05:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:05:24Joe Rogan?

  Where was all this money for the people in Chicago? Where was all this money to people in Baltimore? No, no, it's, they're, they're doing it because they're trying to manipulate the election. It didn't work. You know, it didn't work. Like, I had an argument with someone about it, but yeah, it didn't work, though. I go, yeah, but they tried to do it. It didn't work, but they did move people to swing states. They did leave the border open for four years. They did let in millions of people. They don't even know how many. They don't know how many people got through.

• 2:05:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:52Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. Once they got them here, they did give them EBT cards. They did give them cell phones. They did. They moved them into the fucking hotel, that Roosevelt Hotel in New York City, that luxury hotel? Filled with migrants. They paid for their food. They did do this. They encouraged people. They did have sanctuary cities where they weren't going to arrest them. They let them come in.

• 2:06:12Speaker 02

  Still do, Portland, right now. It's, uh, very contentious.

• 2:06:15Joe Rogan?

  Bananas.

• 2:06:16Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 2:06:16Joe Rogan?

  But what?

• 2:06:17Speaker 02

  Do you think you could have had that conversation, let's say, 15 years ago? Um, that kind of a conversation with Kamala, if she was around back then, let's, let's back up 15 years? Or has talking to all these amazing people that you've talked to over the, the, the time this podcast has been in existence has given you this incredible foundation from which to be able to ask like such incredible questions of people and get this stuff out of them and, and?

• 2:06:37Joe Rogan?

  15 years ago, I would have never thought that it would have mattered at all if I had. An opinion on anything.

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:44Joe Rogan?

  It would be like most comics that are doing podcasts today where they're just shooting the shit to their friends and no one cares.

• 2:06:50Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:06:50Joe Rogan?

  No one cares. You know, I want to vote for this guy because I think we need try libertarianism and this is why I think it like, oh, who cares? And then interesting conversation.

• 2:07:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:00Joe Rogan?

  Moves on. Not that like so many people care what my fucking opinion is like that to me is a sign of the times. Like if you're coming to a cage fighting commentator and a dirty comedian like this is, this is the guy that you needed an opinion for. That means the media's failed you. Like what I am, I'm a symptom of a broken system. Like if I'm a source of information, like we've got a like a bit of a supply chain problem.

• 2:07:25Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think it's being a little humble on that as well because where else could someone get these three hours? Uh, where they can really listen to maybe two sides of.

• 2:07:34Joe Rogan?

  Right. But my point is, why didn't somebody else do that already? Why didn't, why didn't mainstream media figure that out? Why did you need someone to figure it out in? On a laptop in a fucking spare bedroom of their house. Like, how is that possibly? The number one media show in the world that's birthed out of a laptop in a spare bedroom. It doesn't make any sense.

• 2:07:54Speaker 02

  Well.

• 2:07:55Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no. It means they failed.

• 2:07:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:57Joe Rogan?

  Because there's a lot smarter people than me, a lot better people at dissecting what's actually going on in the world than me. But for whatever reason, they can't do it. So how come? How, you know, and like they've tried, like there's a bunch of people from the New York Times that try, they try, but they're all bullshitting. They're never free to give their real opinion. They're never free to say, you know what? Actually. This person that I disagree with fundamentally has a really good point about this.

• 2:08:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:08:24Joe Rogan?

  You know, they have, instead of being ideologically captured, which is like most of them, most of them on the right and most of on the left. Instead of just being able to look at things and go that this is the actual reality that we're living in. That's a failure. That's a failure of media. It's a failure of journalism. It's a failure.

• 2:08:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:42Joe Rogan?

  And they say, oh, you know, he's not a journalist. You're right. So how come people are listening? Like, what is that about? You tell me why no one else can have these kind of conversations with people and break it down this way. Well, it's because you're limited by your whole system. If you're involved in mainstream media, you're limited by the format. The format sucks. You have to break for commercials. You're sponsored by, brought to you by Pfizer. So either there's certain things you can't talk about. You've got handcuffs on. And if you're on the internet and you're ideologically aligned with either the left or the right, well, now you're captured by this box of predetermined opinions that you're supposed to subscribe to.

• 2:09:24Speaker 02

  Yep. But you recognize an opportunity.

• 2:09:26Joe Rogan?

  I didn't. But I didn't.

• 2:09:28Speaker 02

  Well, you did something.

• 2:09:29Joe Rogan?

  This is the thing, I just kept doing this. I'm telling you, man, this is not a plan.

• 2:09:33Speaker 02

  I know, I know, we've talked about that.

• 2:09:34Joe Rogan?

  I just kept doing it and then all of a sudden it became what it is.

• 2:09:37Speaker 02

  But you recognized you could plug in a laptop and you could have a video, you could have a conversation.

• 2:09:42Joe Rogan?

  But it was all just for fun. See, that's why it worked. It worked because there was no plan. It was just like, let's do this and it'll be fun. And then people tune in because it's fun. And then I start getting like Graham Hancock on and Anthony Bourdain on. I'm getting some guests and it's kind of fun and it's kind of cool. And then it becomes a cool thing that if you know, you know, like, oh, you listen to podcasts? Check this one out. Yeah, Joe Rogan's got good guests and he asks good questions. And then it became what it is now. But it's, it's all just because I enjoyed doing it. It was never because I recognized like, oh, there's an opening out there.

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  No, no, I didn't mean it like that. I meant like it's very, very natural. That's, that's also a part of it. Like, it's not like you're like, what can I do? Like, no, that's not that. Where some people do do that. Like, hey, what can be my thing? Oh, okay. X, Y, and Z. Okay, I'll give speaking about events on this certain thing and okay, that's my thing now. Because I realized there's a gap. Okay, I'm gonna do that. That's different. That's not moving the needle, probably for anybody in that audience, maybe for one person or something like that. And you're not looking at it like that. You're doing it because it was this very natural thing for you to do. And it happened to grow into what it is today, which is amazing. Which makes it even more powerful that it was natural than you weren't this artificial guy over here saying, what's the opportunity? Oh, I can get, make X dollars by speaking about this topic to this audience. Okay, I'm gonna do that and be happy or whatever. Instead, it was the opposite of that. It was very natural.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  And so it's a very different thing as far as opportunity goes.

• 2:11:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's the weirdness about today, right? It's because you could just start a YouTube channel. Like anybody who's a doctor or a historian could just start a YouTube channel and just start talking. Like, just think about all the stuff that you learned about Vietnam from, from writing this book. You could just break down moments like Dan Carlin's style about Vietnam and just sit there and, and talk about it. And people will be like, that's fascinating. Jack Carr and Vietnam, you seen this video? And then it'll get passed around. Next thing you know, it's got a half a million views. Next thing you know, it's got a million and then everybody's sharing it in social media. That's the most fascinating thing about today. Like if you say something cool and it becomes a part of a clip and somebody likes it, it gets blasted all over the whole world.

• 2:11:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:11:47Joe Rogan?

  It's on TikTok, it's on X, it's on Instagram. And then it's on YouTube and like a hundred different channels. There's all these channels that pop up and they take advantage of the algorithm. So they take these little clips.

• 2:11:59Speaker 02

  I can't do that. I can never do something for clicks or for anything like that.

• 2:12:03Joe Rogan?

  I don't either, but other people will.

• 2:12:05Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:12:05Joe Rogan?

  You don't have to do it. That's what's interesting. The vast majority of our clips online have nothing to do with us. I didn't put them up there. I don't know who the fucking person is that's editing them and clipping them together. Some of those cuts even put their own watermark on it, like whoever you are, cut the shit. That's not, you know, like, oh, I edited, do you think Mind of a Winner, like, dot com, fuck off.

• 2:12:29Speaker 02

  Oh, boy.

• 2:12:29Joe Rogan?

  They do that stuff and they put their own little fucking website on it. But it's just, it's a weird time. It's a weird time for the distribution of information. And mainstream media, they dropped the ball. They, they missed these openings and they're not capable of being free. There's too many cooks in the, like, all the notes that you were getting on season one, right? You don't get them anymore because it's successful. Like, that's kind of every show on television has got to deal with all these goddamn cooks. All these chefs. Oh, add a little of this and add a little of that. Well, you can't do it. You can't do it. You can't do it.

• 2:13:06Speaker 02

  No, it's like we're talking about earlier. Now people are trying to get that clip. So their life and their, their, their, their income is reliant on trying to get that clip. But I think what they don't realize is that that's a blip. You know, like, that's a, what's a one thing, and then it's back down, back down here. It's not a boom and then going from there. You have to continually add value to people's lives, I think, long term, if you're gonna build something of substance. And that's what you, you have done, obviously. And it's incredible to watch and, you know, be a, be a part of from the audience side and then to, you know, be your friend and all that stuff.

• 2:13:34Joe Rogan?

  My side is fucking weird as shit.

• 2:13:35Speaker 02

  I know. But then we see that stuff like with Charlie Kirk and people trying to take advantage of that to get a click.

• 2:13:39Joe Rogan?

  I know.

• 2:13:40Speaker 02

  And it's so, it's brutal. And I don't know what it is, what it, going forward, like, when you think about communication in general. And a long time ago, the telephone used to connect us with our grandparents, let's say, states away. It used to connect us. And now, the telephone, it disconnects us from that person who's sitting right here next to us on the couch, our spouse, or our kids, or anything else. So, it used, communication used to connect us. Now, a communication device, which does obviously a lot more than that, is a tracking device, surveillance device, all these other things. But, it's, it disconnects us from those that we're in the same room with. And that's a, that's a different deal. And that's why, when I look at long term, when we're talking about, and you always remain so hopeful about the future, and I love it, and I try to remain hopeful as well. But when you think about it in those types of terms, like, this thing's not going away. And what's next, meta glasses? Okay, we got the meta glasses.

• 2:14:25Speaker 02

  They gave me some at UFC, actually.

• 2:14:26Joe Rogan?

  Me too.

• 2:14:27Speaker 02

  Did they?

• 2:14:27Joe Rogan?

  Have you fucked with them yet?

• 2:14:28Speaker 02

  No, because I left them under my seat, and as soon as they gave them to me, I knew I was gonna leave them under that seat. They handed it to me when I came in, and I'm like, I'm 100% leaving this behind. Put it under the seat, I told Monica, I'm like, Monica, remind me to bring these things with me. And then we just had such a great time, we totally forgot, the Chicago one.

• 2:14:42Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they gave them to me as I was leaving.

• 2:14:45Speaker 02

  Well, that would have made more sense.

• 2:14:46Joe Rogan?

  I grabbed them, I'm like, thank you very much, and I have them.

• 2:14:48Speaker 02

  Have you done it, have you put them on?

• 2:14:49Joe Rogan?

  I put them on when they were here. I haven't done the new ones. But I, I've done several versions, I've tried them. They're pretty fucking incredible. It's pretty incredible, I'm not wearing them.

• 2:15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:00Joe Rogan?

  But we've had to stop people from wearing them at the comedy club. They try to film things with meta glasses on. It's kinda funny.

• 2:15:05Speaker 02

  Oh, no way.

• 2:15:06Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, dorks.

• 2:15:06Speaker 02

  Interesting. All glasses have to go in the pouch, just like the phones last night, into the pouch.

• 2:15:10Joe Rogan?

  Everybody who works there knows what a meta glasses is.

• 2:15:12Speaker 02

  Right, right, but now they do. But then, what happens five years from now, when you can put them in anything?

• 2:15:16Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's gonna be contact lenses. And, and then it's gonna be over.

• 2:15:19Speaker 02

  And then it's gonna be in the brain, some sort of implant.

• 2:15:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there'll be a, there, there'll be some sort of a hard drive that you go by, yeah.

• 2:15:25Speaker 02

  Nope, not for me.

• 2:15:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, no, not for me either, but we're the last, we're the last of the regular people.

• 2:15:31Speaker 02

  Because it's gonna be normal now, going forward.

• 2:15:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's gonna be a cyborg nation.

• 2:15:36Speaker 02

  Ah, I like how you're hopeful. You were hopeful earlier.

• 2:15:39Joe Rogan?

  No, I am still hopeful. I mean, I hope it works out well, but it's, change is inevitable and our change is technologically driven and it's an integration. The, the, the integration between this incredible technology that's available now to everybody through these AI platforms and then your phone. And then your biology, like this, many people are wearing them Apple watches and they're getting text messages and emails and making phone calls on their watch.

• 2:16:06Speaker 02

  I know, it's awful. I judge someone immediately when I see an Apple watch, unless it's for health reasons. But I see someone with an Apple watch, I immediately judge. But that's the same thing, using the watch to tell a story about the person or gear, whatever it might be, 1911, 1945, the new staccato that tells me something. About that person, you know, what kind of hat they wear, belt they wear, leather setup, KIDEX setup, like all those things, Solomon shoes versus, you know, whatever. Oakleys versus Gators, like all those things tell me something about a person, but I immediately judge. I make judgments based on very little information. And that, that watch tells me something. And then they get into the Tesla and I'm like, oh, okay, Apple watch Tesla, you know. And some of those things, it seemed like they just have no soul, you know what I mean? There's just like a.

• 2:16:43Joe Rogan?

  The Apple watch thing is weird because it's like, do you really need it all on your wrist?

• 2:16:48Speaker 02

  Buzzing all the time?

• 2:16:49Joe Rogan?

  And it, you have to charge it every day. And then like I have a Garmin. Then it's a digital watch, it's got maps on it and stuff like that, but I use it when I go hunting and I can put that fucker on full charge. It'll go like a month and a half and it'll charge partially because of solar.

• 2:17:05Speaker 02

  I can do less than, I can't, I gotta, nothing else to charge. Did they give me something else to charge? I can't.

• 2:17:10Joe Rogan?

  But the thing about those, what I like about them is like you could sync it up to your rangefinder, there's a bunch of different things you do, you could have maps on it. And if you had to get out of somewhere and you're fucked and you're in the woods, you could pull up the GPS on your watch and you could figure out where the trailhead is. And you can get out, you could figure out where the road systems are and you can get out. You can just say, okay, I just have to go due north for six miles and I'm gonna hit a road. Like that's, that can save your life. Like if you're in the middle of the woods, you don't know what the fuck is going on and something happens. And you're like, okay, we have to get out of here. We can't go back the way we came. How do I, how do I get to some form of civilization?

• 2:17:49Speaker 02

  I'm a mapping compass guy. I'm a mapping compass guy.

• 2:17:52Joe Rogan?

  That's great.

• 2:17:53Speaker 02

  Map compass, the, uh, the Waltham compass, I put that in the, it's in the book right here. The Vietnam guys had them on their, on their Seagulls.

• 2:17:58Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:59Speaker 02

  Those are awesome. So I had one of those near me as I was writing the book as well. And, uh, we put one into the show, Dark Wolf, the guys are on the fire in the first episode. Jared's there as Boozer and Pratt's there and Taylor's there and, uh, Tom Hopper's there on this fire. And that scene, I think is one of the best ones. And, uh, Tom gets a gift from, from Reese, from, from Chris Pratt and he opens it and it's that, uh, that wrist compass from Vietnam. That's really cool. And that was, that scene was really cool to see, see Jared in particular. Um, buddy from the SEAL teams who gives Chris the book. Now he's an actor, he's a executive producer, a writer, wrote an episode and technical advisor. Four things on that show.

• 2:18:31Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome.

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  Got to act a lot more in this one and it's so, so good.

• 2:18:34Joe Rogan?

  So cool.

• 2:18:34Speaker 02

  I hope nobody poaches him away from us. He's so good in this and at all of those things. So gotta, gotta keep close hold with, uh, on Jared. He's so fantastic in it. But, uh, but that scene in particular, I think a lot of people who were in Iraq and Afghanistan that spent time around the fire or any, any warriors who spent time around a fire or hunters that spent time around a fire will, uh, identify with that scene. The sharing of stories, uh, between hunters and warriors. And that was, that was a powerful scene to, to film and we did that early on. That was the first like week of filming. It was pretty cool.

• 2:19:00Joe Rogan?

  That's awesome. Most people don't know how to use a compass at all.

• 2:19:05Speaker 02

  See me, I'd, I'd, I'd do well with the compass and the map, but not so good with the garment. I'd be like, where's my?

• 2:19:09Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever figured out a way to use your watch as a compass?

• 2:19:12Speaker 02

  I know there's a, a thing that you can do, but I don't know how to do that.

• 2:19:15Joe Rogan?

  Cause they have like dials that like, like, so it looks like a diver dial, but it's north, south, east, west.

• 2:19:20Speaker 02

  I think you have to wait on the, the shadow or something. You can do that with a stick in the ground also, the whole, whole thing.

• 2:19:25Joe Rogan?

  There's like a whole process to figuring out, excuse me, where east, north, west, east. And then somehow another you use your watch.

• 2:19:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, there's something like that, but, uh, yeah, map compass, the, uh, the sun across the sky, where it is, time of day.

• 2:19:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but that's obvious stuff, right?

• 2:19:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:19:41Joe Rogan?

  Rise, rises in the east, sets in the west. But when you're, when you're looking at your watch, there's some sort of way to figure out where everything is. I don't get it.

• 2:19:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there was on, uh, what is it, the Wild, what was the Bear Grylls show? I think he talked about it in one of those, those whole shows.

• 2:19:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I went, I watched a whole YouTube video on it. I'm like, I don't get it. I still don't get it.

• 2:19:59Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 2:20:00Joe Rogan?

  But there's, um, you know, everybody has a compass on their phone now, too.

• 2:20:03Speaker 02

  I know, and then that thing dies. I don't know.

• 2:20:05Joe Rogan?

  That's a problem.

• 2:20:05Speaker 02

  Can't plug anything in. But did you get out hunting this year?

• 2:20:08Joe Rogan?

  What's that?

• 2:20:08Speaker 02

  Did you get hunting this year?

• 2:20:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:20:10Speaker 02

  Did you get to Utah?

• 2:20:11Joe Rogan?

  Utah.

• 2:20:11Speaker 02

  Nice. I think I remember when you were there, and I was, I was in Morocco, I think. It was the last couple of months, I've just been totally on the road, um, which has been great.

• 2:20:18Joe Rogan?

  I was there the week of the fifteenth.

• 2:20:19Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. Right after, okay.

• 2:20:21Joe Rogan?

  It was great. We caught it right in the rut.

• 2:20:23Speaker 02

  Nice. I was in Morocco.

• 2:20:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you, uh, it was, it was good time?

• 2:20:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we had a good time. Yeah, it was awesome. It was beautiful.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  I haven't been out in a while. Then been to Lanai, done that, just because it's an easy, you know, flight out there. Stay at the Four Seasons, the family loves it and all that stuff. Uh, no, there's some, right, I'm with the kids. So for me, when I go out now, it's all about the, the kids and getting them out there on the rifle.

• 2:20:41Joe Rogan?

  Rifle hunting in Lanai is infinitely more effective.

• 2:20:45Speaker 02

  Yes, agreed.

• 2:20:46Joe Rogan?

  Than bow hunting.

• 2:20:47Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 2:20:47Joe Rogan?

  Bow hunting in Lanai is really hard, and it seems crazy because there's so many animals. But the success rate is really low.

• 2:20:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, especially those winds and swirling and everything like that. But, uh, but if you're on the timeline, you need to get back to Nobu, uh, in time for dinner, then, uh, you use that rifle, you know?

• 2:21:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, also, it's the best way to get the meat, and that's the best meat, like, it, right up there with elk, almost.

• 2:21:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:11Joe Rogan?

  It's just like slightly less desirable to me than elk.

• 2:21:15Speaker 02

  Is it?

• 2:21:15Joe Rogan?

  Axis deer. Axis deer's really good.

• 2:21:18Speaker 02

  So good.

• 2:21:18Joe Rogan?

  Delicious. And that's one of the cool things about, um, if you stay on Lanai, which is, uh, there's two Four Seasons there, and the Four Seasons that's on the water is incredible.

• 2:21:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21:27Joe Rogan?

  But they have these, um, these Axis Burger sliders.

• 2:21:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:21:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Axis deer sliders are so good. Oh.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  And the carpaccio, have you had the carpaccio there?

• 2:21:36Joe Rogan?

  I've had everything there.

• 2:21:37Speaker 02

  It's friggin' great.

• 2:21:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's great, but it's, what a weird place where you can hunt deer during the day and then stay at the Four Seasons.

• 2:21:43Speaker 02

  Not bad. The other one's a Sensei Spa now, up top, so they switched it up, and so it's this crazy. Yeah, it's this crazy high-end spa in the old Four Seasons, one that used to look like a hunting lodge type of a thing.

• 2:21:52Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:21:52Speaker 02

  Uh, so that's a Sensei Spa now. But, uh, yeah, it's a good time. So that's the only hunting I've been doing the last couple of years now.

• 2:21:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, you were part of the Pineapple Brothers, right?

• 2:21:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:59Joe Rogan?

  Like, you're one of the, the organization that runs the.

• 2:22:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, me and John.

• 2:22:02Joe Rogan?

  Outfitting out there, yeah.

• 2:22:03Speaker 02

  Alec out there, who's the guy.

• 2:22:04Joe Rogan?

  Do they have a lot of people come out there every year?

• 2:22:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's pretty, pretty booked, yeah, pretty booked all year, because the family gets to go. It's very unique in that respect.

• 2:22:10Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 2:22:11Speaker 02

  Like, you did, you got the family.

• 2:22:12Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's also like such a, there's, first of all, you have to hunt them. There's thirty thousand deer on an island with three thousand people. That is so crazy. And if you see them at night in particular, can you like shine a headlight out to the field, you're like, there's no way this is sustainable. It's not, so they, they literally have to hunt them.

• 2:22:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, and hunting is such a big part of the Hawaiian culture too. People don't realize that. They think of the beaches and everything else, don't realize how, how big a part of the culture that really is.

• 2:22:39Joe Rogan?

  That's where the luau's all about, right? It's wild pig hunting. They're using, they're not using farm-raised pigs.

• 2:22:45Speaker 02

  Maybe now they might be, some places, I don't know.

• 2:22:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I'm sure some resorts using that, but for the traditional way, it was like you're hunting pigs. And those pigs were brought over by sailors. That's how they got on that island in the first place.

• 2:22:57Speaker 02

  Well, the Axis came over from India, so it's all coming over from someplace. But it's nice there's no snakes too.

• 2:23:02Joe Rogan?

  That's true. That is nice. And there's nothing that's an animal that can kill you on land.

• 2:23:08Speaker 02

  That's, that's pretty good. Different than Australia.

• 2:23:10Joe Rogan?

  But in the water.

• 2:23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh yeah. You wanna, hence why you don't surf.

• 2:23:13Joe Rogan?

  It gets a little squirrely.

• 2:23:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:15Joe Rogan?

  Gets a little squirrely out there with the tiger sharks.

• 2:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, a hundred percent chance of not getting eaten by a shark if you don't go in the water.

• 2:23:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, fuck all that, dude.

• 2:23:23Speaker 02

  Same thing with skydiving. Like, I'm done with the skydiving. No more, no more of that.

• 2:23:26Joe Rogan?

  Thank you, please.

• 2:23:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that seems unnecessary at this point.

• 2:23:28Joe Rogan?

  Stop, Tom Cruise.

• 2:23:29Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:23:29Joe Rogan?

  Hey, Tom Cruise, cut the shit. You did it already.

• 2:23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. We can do it on the green screen now. Come on.

• 2:23:34Joe Rogan?

  Enough, buddy. Enough.

• 2:23:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so no, yeah, no more of that sort of, sort of thing. Uh, as fun as it, as fun as it was, the flying around was always fun, but the jumping, eh, the flying around, great, and then when you have to go to pole through that sequence, it's like that's when, that's the moment of truth. And if you know this doesn't work, then there are procedures you need to go through in order to get the secondary, you know, get the backup shoot going.

• 2:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Nightmare.

• 2:23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no.

• 2:23:55Joe Rogan?

  Not good.

• 2:23:56Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm good. But, uh, I'll go in the water though. I'll still go in the water with the sharks, but not, uh, much of it with the planes. But, uh, yeah, we were down in Nicaragua last, uh, what, a few months ago? The kids were surfing and all that stuff, but I'm thinking about sharks the whole time.

• 2:24:08Joe Rogan?

  You know Adam Green Tree?

• 2:24:10Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I don't know him personally, but I know he is.

• 2:24:11Joe Rogan?

  Adam, um, told me that, um, I'm sorry if I told this story yesterday, folks, but Adam, uh, spearfishes. He said that the sharks have learned the sound of the spear gun going off. And so somebody gave him flippers that had scales on them, because they thought it was cool to give him flippers, and these bull sharks showed up after he shot a fish, and they bit his fucking flippers off.

• 2:24:32Speaker 02

  Stop.

• 2:24:33Joe Rogan?

  Yes. Cause the flippers had scales on them.

• 2:24:36Speaker 02

  Well, don't use those anymore.

• 2:24:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, fuck all that. I'm like, why did you? He goes, I was thinking about it, Mike. This isn't good. I'm like, yeah, it's not good. It's not good. He goes, then they bit him off me feet.

• 2:24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:46Joe Rogan?

  Like, oh my god.

• 2:24:46Speaker 02

  Oh. Have you seen the lady that swims with the sharks? Have those popped up on your YouTube?

• 2:24:50Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah.

• 2:24:51Speaker 02

  I mean, it's like, I mean, I hate to say it, but like, the grizzly guy, what happened to the grizzly guy?

• 2:24:55Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think she knows what she's doing, and I think it's a little different, cause sharks don't target people. Most of the times when they're killing people, it's an accident, cause they think the people's a seal.

• 2:25:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe.

• 2:25:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, maybe, right? I don't know.

• 2:25:09Speaker 02

  Exactly. Exactly. I mean, there's that, like, the SeaWorld, one member of the SeaWorld.

• 2:25:13Joe Rogan?

  That's different.

• 2:25:14Speaker 02

  Thing, like, took that lady down.

• 2:25:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but that's different. They don't ever do that in the wild. Orcas in the wild don't kill people. They only kill people when people fuck with them. That's all it is. One of the, one of the things that's been happening lately is they've been sinking boats.

• 2:25:25Speaker 02

  I saw those videos. That's crazy.

• 2:25:27Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they decide, fuck you, and they start sinking boats.

• 2:25:29Speaker 02

  That's amazing, and that's something that we haven't seen before, right?

• 2:25:31Joe Rogan?

  No, it's very new.

• 2:25:32Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 2:25:33Joe Rogan?

  It's like, within this decade.

• 2:25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:34Joe Rogan?

  It's a very recent thing, and it's one particular part of the world, where it seems to be occurring over and over again. And I don't know what happened. Like, maybe somebody fucked with a killer whale. Like, maybe somebody did something terrible.

• 2:25:46Speaker 02

  Maybe. And then that, that sonar, whatever, they talk, goes out, and they're like.

• 2:25:49Joe Rogan?

  Where they're attacking killer whales? Cause like, you're talking about evil and wealthy people, and we're getting into that thing, you know what I mean? Like, and they're attacking yachts?

• 2:25:57Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:25:58Joe Rogan?

  You know what I'm saying?

• 2:25:59Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:25:59Joe Rogan?

  Like, how many, how many cunts are on a yacht that are like, let's shoot the killer whale? And they're firing rifles at killer whales?

• 2:26:07Speaker 02

  Maybe, and they're like, oh yeah?

• 2:26:09Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:09Speaker 02

  How about some of this action?

• 2:26:10Joe Rogan?

  I bet there's some shitheads out there.

• 2:26:12Speaker 02

  The boat roaming orcas?

• 2:26:13Joe Rogan?

  Oh, there's a new theory.

• 2:26:14Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:26:14Joe Rogan?

  About why orcas are targeting sailboats in the Iberian Peninsula. They're using them to practice hunting their favorite food. I don't like your theory. I think your theory sucks.

• 2:26:23Speaker 02

  I'm not buying it.

• 2:26:23Joe Rogan?

  I bet somebody was an asshole. I bet someone killed one of those orcas.

• 2:26:29Speaker 02

  Would you go down with the, uh, with the shark cage off of like a

• 2:26:32Joe Rogan?

  No fucking way. No, I did do one thing with my family once, a long time ago, we did, uh, we, uh, not scuba dive, but snorkelled.

• 2:26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:43Joe Rogan?

  We snorkelled with dolphins.

• 2:26:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:26:44Joe Rogan?

  That was pretty badass.

• 2:26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:45Joe Rogan?

  So you find a pot of dolphins and then you jump overboard.

• 2:26:48Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 2:26:49Joe Rogan?

  And you can get, you know, within like 50, 60 yards of them and they swim around. It's kinda cool. You see them swimming underwater and shit. It's pretty badass.

• 2:26:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:57Joe Rogan?

  That was cool, but they, they don't, they're not interested in you. They're like, get out of here.

• 2:27:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:00Joe Rogan?

  But if you're on a boat, they are interested in you. It's interesting. Like when, maybe it was just the, the circumstance that we had, maybe sometimes they come and play with you. But I've been on boats before where they come right up next to the boat and they jump and they're, they're putting on a show for you.

• 2:27:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:14Joe Rogan?

  Like as the boat is moving its way through the water, they're, they're flipping and they're looking at you. They're like looking at you and they come out of the water.

• 2:27:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:21Joe Rogan?

  And it's really clear that they're kinda playful.

• 2:27:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:27:24Joe Rogan?

  And they're interacting with people.

• 2:27:25Speaker 02

  Right. Different than the sharks that come into the shark cage and just crunch it. You see one with the guy, I would've done that a long time ago. I don't know if I'd do it now.

• 2:27:31Joe Rogan?

  Other one guy with the shark went right in.

• 2:27:33Speaker 02

  I mean, come on.

• 2:27:34Joe Rogan?

  This is an updated article from last month about the same group of.

• 2:27:40Speaker 02

  Jaws came out again. It was like a 50th anniversary or something. So I saw it in the theater with my son and, uh, it was pretty cool to see in the theater.

• 2:27:46Joe Rogan?

  Okay, here it is. The, while some initial reports suggested that the Iberian orcas could be carrying out revenge against the ships, this has been dismissed by many orca experts. Why? Um, the encounters often involve young orcas going straight for the rudders. Uh, scientists have suggested the orcas are likely just bored teenagers with more free time since Atlantic bluefin tuna populations, their favorite prey, prey in the region, recovered, meaning they need to spend less time hunting. What does it say? Click on dismissed by many orca experts. Click on that link. I want to find out why they think it's dismissed. Like what's their rationalization?

• 2:28:23Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 2:28:24Joe Rogan?

  Open letter to. Regarding Iberian orcas and their interactions with boats. Under signed are experts in biology and behavior of cetaceans with several specializing in orcas, also known as killer whales. There's been intense public interest in interactions between orcas. As the Iberian orcas and marine vessels along the coast of the Iberian Peninsula and in neighboring waters. We are concerned that factual errors regarding these interactions are being repeated in the media along with a narrative. Lacking a basis in science or reality that the animals are aggressively attacking vessels. Or seeking revenge against mariners. Well, first of all, stop right there. They are aggressively attacking vessels. I watched it.

• 2:29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:07Joe Rogan?

  There's a video you can watch.

• 2:29:08Speaker 02

  Sure looks like it.

• 2:29:09Joe Rogan?

  These people are on the boat and it starts slamming in the boat and it sinks the boat. Like what is that?

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  Guys, people are freaking out on that boat, too. Of course you would.

• 2:29:15Joe Rogan?

  I think it's probably people are, oh, the whales have shown a wide range of behaviors during the interactions. Many of them consistent with playful social behavior. Yeah, because they're having a good time sinking these boats. Like, just stop. People in their fucking narratives.

• 2:29:29Speaker 02

  Ah, all I'm saying is the grizzly guy gets eaten by the grizzly, the rattlesnake guy gets bit by the rattlesnake, the shark person, I mean, I just, I worry.

• 2:29:36Joe Rogan?

  It could certainly happen.

• 2:29:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:29:38Joe Rogan?

  It certainly could happen. But the grizzly guy, though, I think that was suicide by bear.

• 2:29:42Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:29:43Joe Rogan?

  Did you watch that documentary?

• 2:29:44Speaker 02

  No, I just, I've heard about it so many times, I feel like I've seen it.

• 2:29:46Joe Rogan?

  It's a fun documentary.

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:48Joe Rogan?

  It's Werner Herzog.

• 2:29:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:29:49Joe Rogan?

  He's brilliant and he turns it into a comedy. It is kind of a comedy. It's like an unintentional comedy about a guy who's really fucking stupid.

• 2:29:57Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:29:57Joe Rogan?

  And hangs out with bears way too long.

• 2:29:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:00Joe Rogan?

  Eventually gets eaten.

• 2:30:01Speaker 02

  Man, I went up there in Alaska going up the rivers, uh, bear hunting and, uh, I mean, you're walking right by him. It is insane just looking for the right one and, uh, someone's wanting an old one and it's crazy how close you you get and how comfortable the guides are. Working their way up these river systems off of both, staying on a boat, you go in and then you work your way up through the day and come back and, um, but it was, it was wild to be so close. I'm like, I'm very nervous because you always hear about don't get between the mom and the cubs type thing and you're walking right by him and you're like. Okay, you know, here we go.

• 2:30:29Joe Rogan?

  And they're so big.

• 2:30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, the 375 for, uh, for that one. Yes, Ironsight 375.

• 2:30:35Joe Rogan?

  Ironsights?

• 2:30:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:30:36Joe Rogan?

  How come?

• 2:30:36Speaker 02

  Uh, just because it's gonna be close.

• 2:30:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 2:30:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, fog, yeah, yeah.

• 2:30:41Joe Rogan?

  Fuck.

• 2:30:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, fog.

• 2:30:42Joe Rogan?

  Give me that close.

• 2:30:42Speaker 02

  I don't want to worry about like the, the, the condensation on the, on the, you're right down there.

• 2:30:48Joe Rogan?

  How close was the shot? It's very wet out there, right?

• 2:30:50Speaker 02

  I didn't take one, but we had one, yeah, very wet, yeah, everything's soaking wet and it's just fog, mist, the whole, the whole thing, so. Uh, the only one we had, we had a charge and, uh, I think I told you that, I can't remember, had a charge and the guy came in, he was a little young, she was like, my guide said, it was a female guy, she's amazing, she said, he's legal. I'm like, eh, that's not what you want to hear, you know, you want something that's really old. And, uh, you want to be contributing to this, you know, conservation, but he's young, you know, I didn't want to do that.

• 2:31:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, legal's not a word you want to hear when you're hunting.

• 2:31:15Speaker 02

  No, no, and that, but it was curious also, so it was young, so it's curious, so it kept coming in, kept coming in, and she's yelling at it and I'm just right there, just on the trigger, like, ready to go. And it's coming, it's coming, and then it gets close and it stops and it starts doing that, like, going back and forth type thing. And it's pretty close, I, I had most of it on video and then I didn't want to be the guy that has the phone out and gets eaten and, uh, and so I like, so I put it down, so you can, so it gets close and then I put it down so you can still hear it because it's still running, so I still have the video, you can hear. And, uh, he goes like this and he starts to charge and he veers the other way, though, he veers off, so she goes, she goes, she's yelling at him and she says, shoot, and I start to press the trigger and she goes, no, no, no, no, like in the same sentence, like, there's no.

• 2:31:57Joe Rogan?

  Uh, because he veered off?

• 2:31:58Speaker 02

  Because he veered off. Wow. He looked like he was gonna come and it was so close, I was like, oh, okay, that's all right, yeah. So, uh, then we made our way back out and didn't get, didn't get one on that trip, but it was beautiful up there. It was beautiful, I love it up there.

• 2:32:09Joe Rogan?

  It's the last frontier, for real.

• 2:32:11Speaker 02

  I'd go, I'd go up there, I'd go live up there.

• 2:32:13Joe Rogan?

  Would you?

• 2:32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, my wife wouldn't, so I think we'll stay in Park City.

• 2:32:18Speaker 02

  But, uh, but I'd go up there for sure.

• 2:32:19Joe Rogan?

  It's a crazy place, it's Park City on steroids.

• 2:32:22Speaker 02

  It's, uh, well, without.

• 2:32:23Joe Rogan?

  I mean, not Park City, but like, the Utah Mountains.

• 2:32:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:26Joe Rogan?

  It's, uh, I mean, it is so vast.

• 2:32:29Speaker 02

  Love it, I love it up there.

• 2:32:30Joe Rogan?

  When you're up there, you, the feeling of insignificance.

• 2:32:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:34Joe Rogan?

  When you realize like, oh, there's just us, there's no people anywhere near us.

• 2:32:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32:38Joe Rogan?

  For a long time, for like a few hours in a plane.

• 2:32:42Speaker 02

  Yep, that's what we did, Wrangle Mountains, my last trip, I think it was my last trip up there and, uh.

• 2:32:46Joe Rogan?

  Did you guys see wolves?

• 2:32:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, got a wolf. Got a bear, got a moose, all in one trip.

• 2:32:51Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, big ones of everything, too. It was crazy.

• 2:32:55Joe Rogan?

  Moose is awesome because you could eat that sucker for a whole year.

• 2:32:58Speaker 02

  Yep, got a ton of it. We gave much of it to the guides and their families and all that stuff because there's so much to, you know, to take back.

• 2:33:03Joe Rogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:33:04Speaker 02

  But, uh, yeah, that was John Dubin and, uh, and, uh, Frank LaCrone, who were also in Pineapple Brothers, but we went up there just to us and a guide, two guides, didn't know what they're doing up there.

• 2:33:12Joe Rogan?

  Did you guys fly in, like a bush plane?

• 2:33:15Speaker 02

  Bush plane and into camp one night and then get on the horses and then going up into the mountains with the horses and then make camp there and then push out from that every day.

• 2:33:22Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:33:23Speaker 02

  It was fantastic. Yeah, it was beautiful. That was beautiful. It was 2022, I think. Oh, sure. I mean, everything's so vast and I love Alaska. I was trying, my plan was to go to Alaska and Africa, like back to every other year and then, uh, that didn't happen.

• 2:33:34Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's the only place in this country at this point where you can hunt grizzlies and they really need to do something about that. Some of these other states where they're talking about opening it up because like they, they are not scared of people anymore and the interactions are getting more and more frequent. And they're not doing anything to curb the populations. And that's the thing we're talking about a little bit with Lanai and people that are not involved in hunting and don't understand the conservation aspect of it. You, you can't just have an unchecked population of animals, including predators.

• 2:34:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:06Joe Rogan?

  You know, and they, you know, all these fucking people are voting with their heart instead of like letting wildlife biologists say, no, no, this is actually bad for the animals. For the overall population of them.

• 2:34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:20Joe Rogan?

  And it's also going to be bad for people and.

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, when animals and people collide, if a lot, mountain lions in California, uh, of course.

• 2:34:27Joe Rogan?

  Preposterous.

• 2:34:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, uh.

• 2:34:29Joe Rogan?

  Preposterous. Utah's changed their laws. Utah is like, they're like coyotes now.

• 2:34:33Speaker 02

  Oh, is that right? I didn't even know that.

• 2:34:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, there's too many interactions.

• 2:34:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got a big one a couple of years. One came on our.

• 2:34:38Joe Rogan?

  They've adjusted.

• 2:34:38Speaker 02

  Our neighbor's game cam, huge one came through, which is good because well fed. And that's the one when they get skinny and, you know, get a little dicey, huge one came through right around Thanksgiving when all the families in town were up in the mountains right there, pretty remote. And, and everybody's there, the kids are there. So I'm kind of like, oh, man, and I'm sure they've seen me a ton of times and I've never seen, never seen them.

• 2:34:57Joe Rogan?

  They've probably been watching you.

• 2:34:59Speaker 02

  Get my game cams up. Got to get those game cams up. I have a bunch of them, I just need to figure out how to link them all up. I need someone to help me like link them all up and the wifi and the whole thing.

• 2:35:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, they could set up with cell phones now.

• 2:35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:35:09Joe Rogan?

  That's what's cool, so you get text messages every time something walks through your camera.

• 2:35:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I need to do that. I put the about 25 different 3D targets up there. The archery challenge guys came up, so I have a course that I can walk that I don't usually do.

• 2:35:20Joe Rogan?

  That's great, though. That's great to just have in the backyard. That's pretty sweet.

• 2:35:25Speaker 02

  That's awesome. But I want to get some game cams on them to see what the interaction is because the moose come through, the elk come through, the mule deer come through, and I want to see those interactions. We have about 200 turkeys, it seems, probably like more like 150, but a lot come through every day. So I do love it up there. And you know if someone's up there that you know if they shouldn't be there.

• 2:35:42Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  And it was crazy. So right after Charlie Kirk, remember the only thing we had was that this guy was in black, right? So everybody's on, I'm on edge, I'm like devastated by this thing, I'm like really feeling it. I met him once, didn't know him, but we're mutual friends who are very close to him. So anyway, I was just devastated by this thing. And the kids saw it, told me devastated by that, it's just, you know, it's awful all the way around. And there's a knock at our door. And I'm like, and this is like the next day. And I'm like, no one's supposed to be here. Our gate was busted, so we're getting a whole new security system, but the gate was busted then, and it's being fixed now. So I'm like, who's this? And I can look out from a place where no one can see me, and it's this guy in all black. I knew it wasn't, in my mind, I knew this isn't the person.

• 2:36:28Speaker 02

  But you're hearing, that's the only description. This guy is head to toe black, up in the mountains where I've never seen him before. You have to work to get up to us. But his car was semi-nice, parked outside. I'm like, what is this? That feels like an Audi or something. I'm like, this is weird. And he was overweight, clearly didn't fit the description. But all black, so I'm like on edge already. And so I grabbed the pistol and go down to the door, and his back's to the door, so you can't see his face. So I'm like, what? So I have the pistol behind my back, a 226 behind my back, because I can do some work with that thing. And I'm like, yeah? And he's like, oh, we're doing some work around the corner with some cement. Do you need any work with cement around here? I'm like, no. Like, you're just not pretty nice to people. But I was like...

• 2:37:12Speaker 02

  And he's, oh, okay, walks by me. You can't just walk up people around here like that without an appointment. Clearly, the gate is meant to keep people out.

• 2:37:20Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:37:20Speaker 02

  And you come up all dressed in black the day after this thing happens and you randomly knock on a door.

• 2:37:25Joe Rogan?

  And then you turn your back to the door.

• 2:37:27Speaker 02

  And you have your back to the door.

• 2:37:28Joe Rogan?

  That's so weird.

• 2:37:30Speaker 02

  Bizarre.

• 2:37:31Joe Rogan?

  Do you know who the guy is?

• 2:37:32Speaker 02

  No, I was just like, I mean, he was doing some work on one of the other places.

• 2:37:36Joe Rogan?

  You want to know if you need cement?

• 2:37:37Speaker 02

  Needed some cement, isn't that odd? But in my mind, I'm like, well, I was just casing for something.

• 2:37:42Joe Rogan?

  Maybe he was like a stalker fan that found where you are and that was his excuse?

• 2:37:47Speaker 02

  I didn't think about that. I was more thinking about just the description of the Charlie Kirk person.

• 2:37:51Joe Rogan?

  That's what I would think immediately. It'd be like, oh, you have cement?

• 2:37:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, like.

• 2:37:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, why do you have extra cement, dude?

• 2:37:56Speaker 02

  Bizarre.

• 2:37:57Joe Rogan?

  You're knocking on people's doors, asking if they need cement?

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  And I think it was really somebody hustling, like trying to do some work, like handyman type stuff, whatever. But that was, that was crazy. One other person came to the house when they shouldn't have. And that was like, it was very strange. And anyway, that's all.

• 2:38:12Joe Rogan?

  If you're in the mountains and someone visits you.

• 2:38:14Speaker 02

  Especially in the middle of the night. Like, that was during the day, but this other one was in the middle of the night.

• 2:38:18Joe Rogan?

  The middle of the night, like how late?

• 2:38:19Speaker 02

  Like midnight.

• 2:38:20Joe Rogan?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 2:38:21Speaker 02

  And so that one, I put the AR by the door, had the pistol and went over there. It ends up they were looking for another house up there, but it was very bizarre.

• 2:38:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's late.

• 2:38:32Speaker 02

  Late in a storm.

• 2:38:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, coming down. So you're like, was this one of those things where you open the door and the other guys rush in? Type of thing, because it was a lady stumbling down through the snow with what I thought was a headlamp ended up being her phone.

• 2:38:43Joe Rogan?

  I saw a video like that online where this lady knocked on the door and a bunch of dudes came.

• 2:38:47Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:38:49Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. So, anyway, yeah, so working on the new security system.

• 2:38:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:54Speaker 02

  Get some, but it's, if you come knocking on the door, it's, you shouldn't be there. People need to have a little more common sense.

• 2:39:03Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:04Speaker 02

  Or you're gonna get, you know.

• 2:39:05Joe Rogan?

  Isn't it terrible, though, that you have to think like that? Like, someone could just have a car broken down and.

• 2:39:10Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:39:10Joe Rogan?

  Just need help.

• 2:39:11Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:39:12Joe Rogan?

  You have to be on edge completely.

• 2:39:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And if that was the case, of course, I'd go up, but then you're still thinking like, oh, they're just gonna get me out of the house.

• 2:39:18Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:39:19Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:39:20Joe Rogan?

  Maybe someone's waiting to get you out of the house and then other people run in.

• 2:39:23Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's gotta be smart. Maybe call, hey, why don't you call some authorities up here and we'll just wait, you know? Let's wait right here until they get here and they can help you with your car or whatever it was. But, yeah, so trying to get a little better with the security type things.

• 2:39:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, there's something about the woods and the mountains alone. When you're by yourself that you worry about people coming to visit you anyway. You worry about people just showing up.

• 2:39:45Speaker 02

  Right. It's not that, it's not normal.

• 2:39:47Joe Rogan?

  And if you're a person that just shows up, you have to recognize that. That that's a very vulnerable position.

• 2:39:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 2:39:53Joe Rogan?

  By yourself in a house in the woods or with your family in a house in the woods. And you just show up while it's snowing.

• 2:39:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:00Joe Rogan?

  This is the beginning of a movie.

• 2:40:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:40:02Joe Rogan?

  It's a horrible movie.

• 2:40:03Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:40:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:04Speaker 02

  So, and when we lived in town, people did come by and kind of expect it. You live in town, there's no real security, whatever, you know, it's kind of like more expected.

• 2:40:11Joe Rogan?

  That's a little more normal.

• 2:40:12Speaker 02

  Uh huh. When you're way up there, and especially on the, that guy dressed in black was weird.

• 2:40:16Joe Rogan?

  Like when it gets darker, like when you're rather in, in the woods and it gets darker and then people show up, those people immediately seem like danger.

• 2:40:23Speaker 02

  Suspect.

• 2:40:24Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:25Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Well, I guess we get the old. Yeah. I mean, that's the old instinct that kept us alive for so long. Like, I need to be on edge here.

• 2:40:30Joe Rogan?

  Exactly.

• 2:40:31Speaker 02

  And tell who's his friend or foe.

• 2:40:32Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:40:33Speaker 02

  That kind of thing until you know.

• 2:40:34Joe Rogan?

  Some invading tribe member.

• 2:40:35Speaker 02

  Exactly. In the middle of the night. Until you absolutely know you're going to err on the side of caution and protecting your life and the lives of your loved ones.

• 2:40:42Joe Rogan?

  Well, listen, brother.

• 2:40:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 2:40:43Joe Rogan?

  I'm very excited about this book.

• 2:40:45Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:40:45Joe Rogan?

  I'm going to get into it. Is the audio available right now?

• 2:40:47Speaker 02

  Audio available, Ray Porter. It's, uh, it's out right now and, uh, yeah, audio ebook hardcover.

• 2:40:53Joe Rogan?

  I like how you went back to James Reese's dad, too.

• 2:40:56Speaker 02

  Ah, there it is. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:40:57Joe Rogan?

  That.

• 2:40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. And we're pitching this to Amazon here, I think in the next month or so as a series. So you never know if it's going to happen or not, but, uh, that'd be a cool one. I think people are ready for a, uh, another Vietnam style TV show or movie. It's been a while. It's been a while since we've had a good one.

• 2:41:13Joe Rogan?

  At the very least, book.

• 2:41:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:41:15Joe Rogan?

  I'm excited.

• 2:41:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. And this one was, uh, essentially it's a espionage thriller set in, uh, in Saigon, but set in, in Southeast Asia, uh, more specifically. And no one's really done that since Quiet American, Graham Greene, Tears of Autumn. Uh, and Graham Greene was 1955. And, uh, Tears of Autumn was 1974 and, and, uh, John McCarrick was the honorable schoolboy in 1977. So it's been a, uh, it's been a while.

• 2:41:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Cry Havoc.

• 2:41:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, man.

• 2:41:40Joe Rogan?

  Available right now. Congratulations on everything, brother.

• 2:41:42Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:41:43Joe Rogan?

  I'm very, very happy for you.

• 2:41:44Speaker 02

  So great to see you.

• 2:41:45Joe Rogan?

  This is awesome to see you killing them out there.

• 2:41:46Speaker 02

  Thanks, brother. Appreciate everything.

• 2:41:48Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure. Bye, everybody.

• 2:42:03Speaker 08

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